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View Full Version : I don't think I want TFC in Champs League next year



Shep
04-16-2012, 04:17 AM
Squad is too thin. We lose players on injury and fatigue effects the rest - it's even exhausting as a fan. Both Champs League and MLS play suffer from the overload of matches and travel.

I feel like an ass saying it, but we can't handle both right now, and really have never been able to.

I'm of the opinion that we would see some serious improvement and focus on the league next season if we fail to qualify this year. And we need it, we need at least one good year of improvement and results to keep this club alive.

Also, we don't really deserve the spot. It's the Champions League ffs, what are we champions of? A sucky little four club competition? I want to see us top of the league, real champions, a squad I feel good about singing for again. One good season of results in MLS, build the squad up some more, and then maybe we have a shot at both CCL and MLS success.


TFC 'till I die.

trane
04-16-2012, 06:19 AM
Yes, we suck because we played in the Champions League. Because otherwise we would be just great.

ManUtd4ever
04-16-2012, 07:33 AM
I don't think you have anything to worry about. At this rate, TFC will be hard pressed to even qualify for the CCL.

Pinkie
04-16-2012, 08:05 AM
now that we've gone far in the CCL, I kinda want to see a playoff appearance this year (ha). and if that means not being the Champions League, then so be it.

__wowza
04-16-2012, 08:26 AM
other teams have done both, for the end of last season we did too. unfortunately its a catch 22.

don garber needs to see clubs more competitive in the champions league to justify a roster cap increase (outside of inflation), but MLS teams have always struggled in the past because of this fact. it's like they need a team to pull of a miracle to justify a no-brainer. either way, the roster cap increase is going to depend wholeheartedly on whether or not other teams in the league can justify it financially.

unless you were talking about TFC not being able to do it in general, if thats the case then id have to disagree. we've played some of our most entertaining and hard fought games in the champions league. i enjoy seeing us there.

Whoop
04-16-2012, 08:36 AM
I still value CCL over the league itself. Though the team should be making the playoffs as well.

Problem is to qualify for the CCL, it's through a small tournament when it should be you have to qualify through the league.

Either way, MLS teams aren't going to succeed in the CCL until the salary cap goes up which will allow teams to get better players or build more depth to compete with Mexican teams.

prizby
04-16-2012, 08:37 AM
I want to be the first MLS team to win CCL...I want to stick to Garber and the Americans who feel their teams are more deserving and to the so called mls 'experts' (writers/staff) who always knock toronto

nothing would bring me greater joy than to be marching down yonge street next april with Garber in awe!

just my personal opinion

Fort York Redcoat
04-16-2012, 09:39 AM
You want to eliminate distraction?

Meaningless Mid Season Friendlies

Waggy
04-16-2012, 09:43 AM
I want us to miss the CCL this year as well, but for a different reason. I think the ownership and management uses CCL success as a crutch against league failure. "Well we haven't made the playoffs, but we've only missed the Champions League once and keep getting better results in it every year!" Plus, CCL games are freebies for MLSE. Players get paid a contract, not paid per game. So any extra (non MLS scheduled games), players essentially play for free (or small bonus'). Every home game is pure profit for MLSE, and they can blow me. I don't see us going farther than the semi-finals right now, so let's make the fucking playoffs for once, or at least miss both so MLSE will REALLY take a hit in the wallet, and maybe wake their asses up a bit. League failure with moderate CCL success is NOT acceptable. And that's what they've been hanging their hat on for 3.5 years

Fort York Redcoat
04-16-2012, 10:04 AM
I want us to miss the CCL this year as well, but for a different reason. I think the ownership and management uses CCL success as a crutch against league failure. "Well we haven't made the playoffs, but we've only missed the Champions League once and keep getting better results in it every year!" Plus, CCL games are freebies for MLSE. Players get paid a contract, not paid per game. So any extra (non MLS scheduled games), players essentially play for free (or small bonus'). Every home game is pure profit for MLSE, and they can blow me. I don't see us going farther than the semi-finals right now, so let's make the fucking playoffs for once, or at least miss both so MLSE will REALLY take a hit in the wallet, and maybe wake their asses up a bit. League failure with moderate CCL success is NOT acceptable. And that's what they've been hanging their hat on for 3.5 years

Semi Final is not moderate success in my eyes and I prefer it to "going deep in the playoffs". As far as I'm concerned it's up to the team to realize that this year WAS lucky we got this far in the Champion League and to be consistent we will have to be a much better squad.

Use the League as practice for Champions League not the other way around. In the end I'd rather the respect at a regional, world level than the casual fan. We can't even agree on what's more important as a league champion, MLS cup or SS so making the playoffs isn't going to be my first priority- it's what happens when we get closer to winning the SS and are good enough to compete well into the champions league.

I'm not disagreeing with the crutch statement but I think that it's going to be a case of trading crutch for crutch. It will be up to us to decide wether we hear "At least we made the CCL." or "At least we made the playoffs." Take your pick.

Oldtimer
04-16-2012, 10:08 AM
Vancouver will win the CCL this year, and Winter will say that he wants to win, but won't really mind Vancouver taking it. MLS playoffs is the real goal, and he knows it.

BayernTFC
04-16-2012, 10:23 AM
I still value CCL over the league itself. Though the team should be making the playoffs as well.
I do to. I also prefer the more open and fluid style of Mexican and Central American squads to the cagier play I've become accustomed to seeing from the majority of MLS teams. Yes, the bar isn't set that high. MLS champion isn't awarded to the team who tops the table and there is no relegation. 10 out of 19 teams make the playoffs. TFC should be able to compete in a regional club tournament while managing to be a mid table squad.


Problem is to qualify for the CCL, it's through a small tournament when it should be you have to qualify through the league.
Yes. Qualification for CCL should come through winning a Canadian League title and an entry should also be given to the winner of a Canadian Cup competition. I understand that many here view the MLS as a NA league. To others, a shared league is a strange notion. MLS was established as a US league and some still view it as such.

Greatest Ripoff
04-16-2012, 10:28 AM
CCL >>>>> MLS

MLS playoffs mean nothing to me. I get much more enjoyment playings the top teams in CONCACAF then I do playing teams like Kanas or New England.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 10:28 AM
Making the semi finals is obviously a great success, but over our time in the CCL I'd say at best we have had moderate success. year 1 we didn't make it out of qualifying right? Year 2 didn't make it out of the group stage. And the new format for the CCL will make it MUCH harder for clubs to ride luck/momentum quite that far. Fort York, I totally agree about switching one crutch for another, but to me international competition is a bonus, something good clubs earn. I'd rather be a good club and see where we go then take an easy way to an international competition that requires beating 2.5 clubs. To me, if we're good enough to make the MLS playoffs, we'll be in a far better position to do well in the CCL. Look at Dallas, they did MLS final one year, CCL final the next. And that order makes PERFECT sense to me. Learn how to play well and win consistently in the league, then go off and carry the banner for country, association and league. Going CCL semi final to hopefully squeeking into the MLS playoffs for the first time just seems so odd to me. Is there a spot in any champions league anywhere that's as lightly contested as the Canadian CCL birth? Winning that should NOT be seen as any sort of accomplishment IMO. Not winning is FAR more of a failure than winning is a success

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 10:33 AM
You want to eliminate distraction?

Meaningless Mid Season Friendlies

This...

MartinUtd
04-16-2012, 10:38 AM
The CCL has been the most enjoyable part of my TFC experience thus far. I'd prefer not to miss it for what we *might* accomplish a few months later.

BayernTFC
04-16-2012, 10:58 AM
I want us to miss the CCL this year as well, but for a different reason. I think the ownership and management uses CCL success as a crutch against league failure. "Well we haven't made the playoffs, but we've only missed the Champions League once and keep getting better results in it every year!" Plus, CCL games are freebies for MLSE. Players get paid a contract, not paid per game. So any extra (non MLS scheduled games), players essentially play for free (or small bonus'). Every home game is pure profit for MLSE, and they can blow me. I don't see us going farther than the semi-finals right now, so let's make the fucking playoffs for once, or at least miss both so MLSE will REALLY take a hit in the wallet, and maybe wake their asses up a bit. League failure with moderate CCL success is NOT acceptable. And that's what they've been hanging their hat on for 3.5 years
I don't understand these comments. You support TFC, but you want them to lose? In my opinion, if TFC fails to win the Canadian Championship and qualify for CCL, then that is letting management off the hook. TFC has been declared Canadian Champion 3 years running and the team made it all the way to the semi-finals in the previous CCL tournament. That's success and something to build on. Throwing in the towel now, just when the Canadian Championship is becoming more competitive, is a cop out. Losing to Montreal or Vancouver should never be acceptable, no matter the position in the MLS standings. Who cares about Chivas, Columbus, Portland or New England? The Amway Canadian Championship is growing and it has a prize of a CCL berth attached to it. Being called the Canadian Champion should be important.

I think it's possible to send a message to MLSE about your displeasure with TFC's MLS performance without hoping the team will lose in other competitions. Don't accept their excuses and vote with your wallet. Do players get paid extra for MLS playoff games? I agree that MLSE will take a hit profit wise if TFC misses out on CCL. CCL might even be better than MLS playoff revenue for them if TFC can make it to group play. TFC would also lose out on the exposure and the chances to improve the squad by failing to qualify for CCL. I'd be more worried about excuses from MLSE for not spending to improve the team if CCL is no longer in play and profits decrease. Does CCL play work as an attraction for players who might consider making the move to Toronto?

trane
04-16-2012, 11:11 AM
^
Roogsy,

A-FUCKING-MEN. I give that the Povich 10000000000000001000000 % support.


I also agree with Bayern TFC.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 11:14 AM
I don't understand these comments. You support TFC, but you want them to lose? In my opinion, if TFC fails to win the Canadian Championship and qualify for CCL, then that is letting management off the hook. TFC has been declared Canadian Champion 3 years running and the team made it all the way to the semi-finals in the previous CCL tournament. That's success and something to build on. Throwing in the towel now, just when the Canadian Championship is becoming more competitive, is a cop out. Losing to Montreal or Vancouver should never be acceptable, no matter the position in the MLS standings. Who cares about Chivas, Columbus, Portland or New England? The Amway Canadian Championship is growing and it has a prize of a CCL berth attached to it. Being called the Canadian Champion should be important.

I think it's possible to send a message to MLSE about your displeasure with TFC's MLS performance without hoping the team will lose in other competitions. Don't accept their excuses and vote with your wallet. Do players get paid extra for MLS playoff games? I agree that MLSE will take a hit profit wise if TFC misses out on CCL. CCL might even be better than MLS playoff revenue for them if TFC can make it to group play. TFC would also lose out on the exposure and the chances to improve the squad by failing to qualify for CCL. I'd be more worried about excuses from MLSE for not spending to improve the team if CCL is no longer in play and profits decrease. Does CCL play work as an attraction for players who might consider making the move to Toronto?

Believe me, I see where you're coming from completely. And I've been doing the wallet voting for a long time already (still rocking a year 1 jersey and scarf). It's not that I want them to lose, it's that I don't rate winning a 4 team tournament as nearly as worthwhile as a chance to win the league. I want to have as good a club as possible, and I think the CCL has become a sort of placebo for real success for the club. And I think the CCL has given TFC fans and management false hopes for a very long time. Hopefully not this time, but that story isn't written yet. I'd rather use the CCL games to test formations and young players, however far that takes us it takes us. I want to start winning some of the 34 games a year we play, instead of the bonus 5 or 6. Once we find a winning formula, then success in the CCL will follow. For years we've hoped CCL success would translate to the league, and it hasn't. At a certain point we have to try something different.

BayernTFC
04-16-2012, 11:14 AM
Semi Final is not moderate success in my eyes and I prefer it to "going deep in the playoffs". As far as I'm concerned it's up to the team to realize that this year WAS lucky we got this far in the Champion League and to be consistent we will have to be a much better squad.

Use the League as practice for Champions League not the other way around. In the end I'd rather the respect at a regional, world level than the casual fan.
I wholeheartedly agree with your statements. I also believe that interest from the casual fan would likely increase after the added exposure and through gaining the respect of avid followers. Some of the best articles written about TFC and the nature of Canadian Soccer were written during the latest CCL run. I really liked seeing the Santos Laguna ad for the match in Torreon (posted in the pre-match thread), and felt it brought an added dimension to our club. To me, that's the kind of stuff that brings excitement and adds to the fun of following a team.



I'm not disagreeing with the crutch statement but I think that it's going to be a case of trading crutch for crutch. It will be up to us to decide wether we hear "At least we made the CCL." or "At least we made the playoffs." Take your pick.
Excellent point.

BayernTFC
04-16-2012, 11:40 AM
Believe me, I see where you're coming from completely. And I've been doing the wallet voting for a long time already (still rocking a year 1 jersey and scarf). It's not that I want them to lose, it's that I don't rate winning a 4 team tournament as nearly as worthwhile as a chance to win the league. I want to have as good a club as possible, and I think the CCL has become a sort of placebo for real success for the club. And I think the CCL has given TFC fans and management false hopes for a very long time. Hopefully not this time, but that story isn't written yet. I'd rather use the CCL games to test formations and young players, however far that takes us it takes us. I want to start winning some of the 34 games a year we play, instead of the bonus 5 or 6. Once we find a winning formula, then success in the CCL will follow. For years we've hoped CCL success would translate to the league, and it hasn't. At a certain point we have to try something different.
LOL. Me too. :)

I understand where you are coming from. It's nice to have a place to vent frustrations too. Not everyone has the same preferences either. I want to see TFC competing harder and playing more consistently. I have been seeing improvements in areas. I certainly would rather watch TFC win as well. Expectations will differ from fan to fan.

brad
04-16-2012, 11:43 AM
Semi Final is not moderate success in my eyes and I prefer it to "going deep in the playoffs". As far as I'm concerned it's up to the team to realize that this year WAS lucky we got this far in the Champion League and to be consistent we will have to be a much better squad.

Use the League as practice for Champions League not the other way around. In the end I'd rather the respect at a regional, world level than the casual fan. We can't even agree on what's more important as a league champion, MLS cup or SS so making the playoffs isn't going to be my first priority- it's what happens when we get closer to winning the SS and are good enough to compete well into the champions league.

I'm not disagreeing with the crutch statement but I think that it's going to be a case of trading crutch for crutch. It will be up to us to decide wether we hear "At least we made the CCL." or "At least we made the playoffs." Take your pick.

What is most important to this teams long term success is being competitive in the league, making the playoffs and having a good run in the playoffs consistentantly. This is what the casual fans want, not a deep run in the CCL. The casual fan is a North American sports fan that is what they are looking for. The casuals make up far more of the fan base than the supporters do, and they are dissapearing. With them, they will take their ticket money, the beer and food money they spend at BMO, the money the spend on merch and spend it elsewhere. Once that is gone, you can bet that big spending on the DP's that you need to succeed in the CL will also dry up...

__wowza
04-16-2012, 11:46 AM
You want to eliminate distraction?
Meaningless Mid Season Friendlies

if i didn't know you, i'd swear you were new..
if i were an asshole id want frings/plata or cann to all go down with season ending injuries just to give MLSE something to fuckin think about.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 11:53 AM
LOL. Me too. :)

I understand where you are coming from. It's nice to have a place to vent frustrations too. Not everyone has the same preferences either. I want to see TFC competing harder and playing more consistently. I have been seeing improvements in areas. I certainly would rather watch TFC win as well. Expectations will differ from fan to fan.

For sure, the thing we can all agree on? Wins and solid play. However it happens. As long as it starts happening sooner rather than later haha
(aside- good luck tomorrow)

BayernTFC
04-16-2012, 12:17 PM
(aside- good luck tomorrow)
Danke. :thumbsup:

tfcleeds
04-16-2012, 12:18 PM
The league is your bread and butter. I don't understand why some people don't care about success in the league. As happy as I am that TFC made it as far as they did in the CCL, let's face it. It didn't take a whole lot for us to qualify in the first place winning a 4-team tournament, and the fact we even advanced from that is partially due to dumb luck (and forces of nature) whether we care to admit that or not. Yes, once we qualified, we had some great results as we progressed through the tournament, but any sustainable Cup-run will be due in part to some degree of luck. It's not a true measure in my opinion of how talented a team is. Look at Liverpool - they have been utter shite this season, yet could still have two Cups to show for it at the end of the day. Ask their fans what they would rather have - I bet most of them would happily trade it away for a Premier League title. I want our team to win the MLS Cup - to achieve that level of success requires a consistent great effort over the course of an entire season, not just here and there against clubs who are drawn out of hat.

ensco
04-16-2012, 12:20 PM
Seems like a pointless debate to me. Who here could do anything other than root for TFC in any game?

Fort York Redcoat
04-16-2012, 12:30 PM
The league is your bread and butter. I don't understand why some people don't care about success in the league. As happy as I am that TFC made it as far as they did in the CCL, let's face it. It didn't take a whole lot for us to qualify in the first place winning a 4-team tournament, and the fact we even advanced from that is partially due to dumb luck (and forces of nature) whether we care to admit that or not. Yes, once we qualified, we had some great results as we progressed through the tournament, but any sustainable Cup-run will be due in part to some degree of luck. It's not a true measure in my opinion of how talented a team is. Look at Liverpool - they have been utter shite this season, yet could still have two Cups to show for it at the end of the day. Ask their fans what they would rather have - I bet most of them would happily trade it away for a Premier League title. I want our team to win the MLS Cup - to achieve that level of success requires a consistent great effort over the course of an entire season, not just here and there against clubs who are drawn out of hat.

Premier League Championship does not equal MLS Cup. Besides the aim here was hoping to trade a real effort in CCL for a playoff spot. Not that enticing.

But to continue in your line of thought I listened all season to Scousers willing to trade cups for 4th(Europe spot). That's where it breaks down for us here: We're willing to call it success for a chance to compete against the same competition we face all year whereas there and elsewhere they'll forego a championship to compete in the region.

BayernTFC
04-16-2012, 12:35 PM
The league is your bread and butter. I don't understand why some people don't care about success in the league.
I can't speak for everyone who feels this way but, for me and some others, the MLS is a US league. If TFC played in a Canadian league, then I'd have something to really care about. As long as TFC is in MLS, I'll be fine with competitive play provided it entertains.


Look at Liverpool - they have been utter shite this season, yet could still have two Cups to show for it at the end of the day. Ask their fans what they would rather have - I bet most of them would happily trade it away for a Premier League title. I want our team to win the MLS Cup - to achieve that level of success requires a consistent great effort over the course of an entire season, not just here and there against clubs who are drawn out of hat.
I don't think comparing TFC to Liverpool is apt or productive. Liverpool plays in a domestic league.

ryan
04-16-2012, 12:37 PM
I want Van Shitty and the Limpact to never hoist a trophy until the end of time.

Sorry but no, we defend our trophy because it's fucking ours...they want it, but we won't let them have it.

tfcleeds
04-16-2012, 12:54 PM
Again, I have no problems doing well in the CCL. Heck, I want us to be in the CCL every year. But that satisfaction is vastly tempered by knowing what we really are about, and that is more readily measured, in my opinion, by our position in MLS. And perhaps the Liverpool example isn't totally apt, but I was using it to illustrate what I'm getting at, which is at the end of the day, I value success in our league. That alone will really show how far we've progressed. You may say the prize isn't greater, but in my opinion, the amount of satisfaction at being crowned the best in your respective league is pretty darn substantial.

trane
04-16-2012, 12:59 PM
I can't speak for everyone who feels this way but, for me and some others, the MLS is a US league. If TFC played in a Canadian league, then I'd have something to really care about. As long as TFC is in MLS, I'll be fine with competitive play provided it entertains.


I don't think comparing TFC to Liverpool is apt or productive. Liverpool plays in a domestic league.

Exactly. I do not want us to be the laughing stock of the league, but I really could not care less about hoisting a Yankee trophy.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 01:02 PM
Ensco, you're obviously right. I think the question is more- rest players in league games to concentrate on CCL, or rest players in CCL games to concentrate on the league. Of course when watching everyone here wants TFC to win every single game.

tfcleeds
04-16-2012, 01:03 PM
Well MLS is what we've got for now, so I don't see why people are downplaying it so much.

Fort York Redcoat
04-16-2012, 01:11 PM
Well MLS is what we've got for now, so I don't see why people are downplaying it so much.

I've accepted it's "our" league or our domestic until we can grow further but by this statement we ignore that this region (CONCACAF) is our region. the above quote asks for pride in our league. I have it but no one near the pride I have for the growth of our region.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 01:19 PM
Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year? I mean, every year there have been at least 10 MLS clubs more qualified than us that had literally zero chance to qualify. Doesn't it disrespect our region, and bring down the quality of the tournament, to not have the best clubs in there? If we are going to accomplish something in the CCL I'd love to earn it, the real way. Like every other club of our size/caliber does. A 4 (really 3) team tournament is a farce. Of course I want to win it, and of course I NEVER want Vancouver or MTL to win it, but at the same time, it's a cheapie. Almost a freebie. I'd be happier if we qualified through league play like the rest of MLS (outside of the US Open winner anyways. but that's a legit tourny with dozens and dozens of entrants). Hell, I'd be OK with us being in the US open. I know that's not rah rah soccer canada, but soccer in Canada isn't there yet. And realistically, we will never have a domestic league, at least not a 1st division one. MLS IS our domestic league. When you live in a country with the population of Canada that's divided into basically 3 cities, it's just not realistic to set up any sort of high level league. If the CFL was trying to get started now it'd be dead in 2 years. It developed in a simpler time, before money and advertising dollars and tv contracts were so important.

tfcleeds
04-16-2012, 01:24 PM
I've accepted it's "our" league or our domestic until we can grow further but by this statement we ignore that this region (CONCACAF) is our region. the above quote asks for pride in our league. I have it but no one near the pride I have for the growth of our region.So I gather then that as long as we qualify for CCL every year, and have a strong run in that tournament, we can still continue to suck ass in MLS and people will be happy with it? OK, so that isn't what people are saying, but I don't want to just get by with the bare minimum in MLS so long as we manage to do well in the CCL. I want us to win the darn thing. I only take issue with some quotes on here (not yours by the way) that seem to suggest the CCL is the only thing that matters. Regionally, well, perhaps it is. But 30+ of the matches TFC plays in any given year have nothing to do with that.

tfcleeds
04-16-2012, 01:27 PM
Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year? I mean, every year there have been at least 10 MLS clubs more qualified than us that had literally zero chance to qualify. Doesn't it disrespect our region, and bring down the quality of the tournament, to not have the best clubs in there? If we are going to accomplish something in the CCL I'd love to earn it, the real way. Like every other club of our size/caliber does. A 4 (really 3) team tournament is a farce. Of course I want to win it, and of course I NEVER want Vancouver or MTL to win it, but at the same time, it's a cheapie. Almost a freebie. I'd be happier if we qualified through league play like the rest of MLS (outside of the US Open winner anyways. but that's a legit tourny with dozens and dozens of entrants).This.

trane
04-16-2012, 01:50 PM
^ Not for me. I do not care about US teams not making through. They are our enemies in my books. The Canadian teams that are here, have a tournament and who merits qualifies. That is ok with me. Plus this year it will be no cake walk.

Fort York Redcoat
04-16-2012, 01:59 PM
Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year? I mean, every year there have been at least 10 MLS clubs more qualified than us that had literally zero chance to qualify. Doesn't it disrespect our region, and bring down the quality of the tournament, to not have the best clubs in there? If we are going to accomplish something in the CCL I'd love to earn it, the real way. Like every other club of our size/caliber does. A 4 (really 3) team tournament is a farce. Of course I want to win it, and of course I NEVER want Vancouver or MTL to win it, but at the same time, it's a cheapie. Almost a freebie. I'd be happier if we qualified through league play like the rest of MLS (outside of the US Open winner anyways. but that's a legit tourny with dozens and dozens of entrants). Hell, I'd be OK with us being in the US open. I know that's not rah rah soccer canada, but soccer in Canada isn't there yet. And realistically, we will never have a domestic league, at least not a 1st division one. MLS IS our domestic league. When you live in a country with the population of Canada that's divided into basically 3 cities, it's just not realistic to set up any sort of high level league. If the CFL was trying to get started now it'd be dead in 2 years. It developed in a simpler time, before money and advertising dollars and tv contracts were so important.

Sad. So you would scrap any progress we've made as a nation? Vancouver and Montreal benefited in at least exposure for being in the Vcup before they made it to MLS. I hope Edmonton can get some of that as well.

How is it you imagine Canadian Soccer "getting there" if not for using the most popular teams as spotlights for an all Canadian tournament? It's not the be all end all but it's progress vs capitulating out nations piece of the regional pie.

Fort York Redcoat
04-16-2012, 02:04 PM
So I gather then that as long as we qualify for CCL every year, and have a strong run in that tournament, we can still continue to suck ass in MLS and people will be happy with it? OK, so that isn't what people are saying, but I don't want to just get by with the bare minimum in MLS so long as we manage to do well in the CCL. I want us to win the darn thing. I only take issue with some quotes on here (not yours by the way) that seem to suggest the CCL is the only thing that matters. Regionally, well, perhaps it is. But 30+ of the matches TFC plays in any given year have nothing to do with that.

I don't speak for the majority but I know some in the minority feel less excited about playoff play than ranking good enough in the table to qualify for playoff play.

Personally, playoffs is something we'd get into if we were good enough to be consistent in CCL. The outcome of said playoffs doesn't concern me as much as the table at the end of the year.

Oldtimer
04-16-2012, 02:13 PM
Personally, my own measurement of the team is:

CCL (and hopefully CWC some day)
Supporters' Shield
MLS Cup in that order.

But if you look at the people wanting to fire Winter even though TFC did very well in the CCL, you know that the average Joe thinks the MLS Cup is the most important thing.

Boris
04-16-2012, 02:15 PM
Personally, my own measurement of the team is:

CCL (and hopefully CWC some day)
Supporters' Shield
MLS Cup in that order.

But if you look at the people wanting to fire Winter even though TFC did very well in the CCL, you know that the average Joe thinks the MLS Cup is the most important thing.

that seems to be a very north american way of thinking to say the least.

I agree with your order of things though

Waggy
04-16-2012, 02:17 PM
Sad. So you would scrap any progress we've made as a nation? Vancouver and Montreal benefited in at least exposure for being in the Vcup before they made it to MLS. I hope Edmonton can get some of that as well.

How is it you imagine Canadian Soccer "getting there" if not for using the most popular teams as spotlights for an all Canadian tournament? It's not the be all end all but it's progress vs capitulating out nations piece of the regional pie.

Our progress as a soccer nation hasn't come from the CCL. It's come from MLS. Vancouver and Montreal weren't bumped up to MLS because of success in the CCL, but because of success in the league (USL). More off pitch than on for that matter. MLS has been the driver in growth and investment in soccer in Canada. I know no Canadian wants to hear that an American league is driving the sport in our country, but it is. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't say scrap a Canadian tournament, but the winner of a 4 team tournament shouldn't receive the same prize that the MLS champion, Mexican Champion, US Open Champion etc have to fight damn hard for. This is how teams can enter the CCL:

Belize, league winner (1 of 8)
El Salvador, winner of each of the 2 seasons (2 of 10)
Cost Rica, top 2 in the league of 12
Guatemala top 2 in the league of 12
Honduras top 2 in the league of 10
Panama top 2 in the league of 10
Nicaragua league champ, 1 of 10
Caribbean clubs qualify through placing top 3 in a tourny (of 15 teams from 31 countries). They play a 3 round tourney to narrow the field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFU_Club_Championship
Mexico the top 4 in the league qualify
US: Supporters Shield Winner (1 of 16 teams), MLS Cup finalists (2 of 16 teams), US Open winners (1 of 64)
Canada: Amway Canadian Champs winner (1 of 4. 1 of whom from the 3rd division) Playing a 4 game tourney

One of these things is not like the others

tfcleeds
04-16-2012, 02:17 PM
Sad. So you would scrap any progress we've made as a nation? Vancouver and Montreal benefited in at least exposure for being in the Vcup before they made it to MLS. I hope Edmonton can get some of that as well. How is it you imagine Canadian Soccer "getting there" if not for using the most popular teams as spotlights for an all Canadian tournament? It's not the be all end all but it's progress vs capitulating out nations piece of the regional pie.You could make the argument though that Vancouver and Montreal joining MLS has, and will, do more for their exposure in the long run (and consequently do more for Canadian soccer as a result) than an annual 4-team tourney ever would have done. Vancouver and Montreal have both been around for a long time, it was their inclusion in MLS that has made more people in their respective cities take notice.Yes, I realize for now, the Canadian Championship is the only avenue a Canadian team can gain a spot in the CCL, since we don't have our own domestic league. But at the same time, it just feels a bit weird and even unsatisfactory considering that by any other measures, we had no real right to qualify. I'd feel we were more deserving of our spot with a better showing in our league, which like it or not, is MLS. Hopefully this will be the case sooner or later.

Boris
04-16-2012, 02:20 PM
Our progress as a soccer nation hasn't come from the CCL. It's come from MLS. Vancouver and Montreal weren't bumped up to MLS because of success in the CCL, but because of success in the league (USL). More off pitch than on for that matter. MLS has been the driver in growth and investment in soccer in Canada. I know no Canadian wants to hear that an American league is driving the sport in our country, but it is. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't say scrap a Canadian tournament, but the winner of a 4 team tournament shouldn't receive the same prize that the MLS champion, Mexican Champion, US Open Champion etc have to fight damn hard for. This is how teams can enter the CCL:

Belize, league winner (1 of 8)
El Salvador, winner of each of the 2 seasons (2 of 10)
Cost Rica, top 2 in the league of 12
Guatemala top 2 in the league of 12
Honduras top 2 in the league of 10
Panama top 2 in the league of 10
Nicaragua league champ, 1 of 10
Caribbean clubs qualify through placing top 3 in a tourny (of 15 teams from 31 countries). They play a 3 round tourney to narrow the field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFU_Club_Championship
Mexico the top 4 in the league qualify
US: Supporters Shield Winner (1 of 16 teams), MLS Cup finalists (2 of 16 teams), US Open winners (1 of 64)
Canada: Amway Canadian Champs winner (1 of 4. 1 of whom isn't even in the top division) Playing a 4 game tourney

One of these things is not like the others


having said all that - theres been progress which seemed to be petes point i think

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 02:30 PM
Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year? I mean, every year there have been at least 10 MLS clubs more qualified than us that had literally zero chance to qualify. Doesn't it disrespect our region, and bring down the quality of the tournament, to not have the best clubs in there? If we are going to accomplish something in the CCL I'd love to earn it, the real way. Like every other club of our size/caliber does. A 4 (really 3) team tournament is a farce. Of course I want to win it, and of course I NEVER want Vancouver or MTL to win it, but at the same time, it's a cheapie. Almost a freebie. I'd be happier if we qualified through league play like the rest of MLS (outside of the US Open winner anyways. but that's a legit tourny with dozens and dozens of entrants). Hell, I'd be OK with us being in the US open. I know that's not rah rah soccer canada, but soccer in Canada isn't there yet. And realistically, we will never have a domestic league, at least not a 1st division one. MLS IS our domestic league. When you live in a country with the population of Canada that's divided into basically 3 cities, it's just not realistic to set up any sort of high level league. If the CFL was trying to get started now it'd be dead in 2 years. It developed in a simpler time, before money and advertising dollars and tv contracts were so important.

I don't mind being given a break so I don't feel completely bad about it. Every year in UEFA, small teams make it in and play against United and Barca despite not being at the same level. It's not meant to be a tourney of equals.

However, you at least acknowledge that we have a pretty easy qualification in. MY problem is when people somehow equate success in the NCC as somehow being a better indication of the current state of the club as opposed to the league results, which in my opinion reflect the true quality of this club. Beating FC Edmonton and Real Esteli doesn't tell me what a great job management is doing. Getting more points this year than last year in the league does.

As for the CCL itself, it's interesting to see people give it so much importance now when it didn't mean shit 4 years ago. I think this is more a result of hope and desire that the CCL becomes a similar story to the UCL because in no way shape or form does the CCL have any sort of prestige or tradition. It has struggled for years in it's previous form and only now beginning to attain some level of interest. Us arbitrarily giving us importance doesn't actually mean it does outside our TFC world although CONCACAF is trying and may eventually attain some level of importance. But that's not today.

Fort York Redcoat
04-16-2012, 02:34 PM
Our progress as a soccer nation hasn't come from the CCL. It's come from MLS. Vancouver and Montreal weren't bumped up to MLS because of success in the CCL, but because of success in the league (USL). More off pitch than on for that matter. MLS has been the driver in growth and investment in soccer in Canada. I know no Canadian wants to hear that an American league is driving the sport in our country, but it is. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't say scrap a Canadian tournament, but the winner of a 4 team tournament shouldn't receive the same prize that the MLS champion, Mexican Champion, US Open Champion etc have to fight damn hard for. This is how teams can enter the CCL:

Belize, league winner (1 of 8)
El Salvador, winner of each of the 2 seasons (2 of 10)
Cost Rica, top 2 in the league of 12
Guatemala top 2 in the league of 12
Honduras top 2 in the league of 10
Panama top 2 in the league of 10
Nicaragua league champ, 1 of 10
Caribbean clubs qualify through placing top 3 in a tourny (of 15 teams from 31 countries). They play a 3 round tourney to narrow the field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFU_Club_Championship
Mexico the top 4 in the league qualify
US: Supporters Shield Winner (1 of 16 teams), MLS Cup finalists (2 of 16 teams), US Open winners (1 of 64)
Canada: Amway Canadian Champs winner (1 of 4. 1 of whom from the 3rd division) Playing a 4 game tourney

One of these things is not like the others

Yes I'm well aware that most casual exposure was from MLS not the Vcup (hell most people don't even call it that unfortunately) but that wasn't my point.

Of your list above no other country GETS to play with the US in their domestic league because they aren't big enough or in one case are bigger (MEX).

The only reason we think this way at large in Canada is because every other sport grew from the Great Lakes region outward historically and are NA sports first. Football isn't like that as I'm sure you're aware. To cede any National tournament is to relinquish progress towards the success of Canada in the world.

I don't find it appealing that we cling to American leagues as an afterthought and would much rather see a little pride in trying to build things on our own but....well....I guess that comes off as "rah rah". It's my opinion and we both know I'm in the minority so I wouldn't worry about it. Abandoning that tournament is more likely to happen than not. I will not be one celebrating that.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 02:34 PM
having said all that - theres been progress which seemed to be petes point i think

Yes for sure. I don't mean to belittle the tournies importance to Canada. I just mean if taking off my TFC hat and putting on my sports fan hat, it really isn't a fair situation. Maybe it's the Canadian in me, but I want to win playing the same way as our competition. I don't want charity. Winning the Belize league is hardly the same was the Mexican. But it's a real competition amongst a larger group of fairly equal clubs. I feel Champions League is something that should be earned, not handed to you. Just my opinion though (obviously). And any all Canadian tournament certainly has value. If we created a Lamar Hunt type tourney for Canada I'd be all for it, I think it'd be great for the country and would be a more legitimate way into the tournament. Plus it would ACTUALLY grow the sport in Canada. Imagine if Milltown FC could qualify to play TFC at BMO for the CCL spot?

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 02:37 PM
Yes for sure. I don't mean to belittle the tournies importance to Canada. I just mean if taking off my TFC hat and putting on my sports fan hat, it really isn't a fair situation. Maybe it's the Canadian in me, but I want to win playing the same way as our competition. I don't want charity. Winning the Belize league is hardly the same was the Mexican. But it's a real competition amongst a larger group of fairly equal clubs. I feel Champions League is something that should be earned, not handed to you. Just my opinion though (obviously). And any all Canadian tournament certainly has value. If we created a Lamar Hunt type tourney for Canada I'd be all for it, I think it'd be great for the country and would be a more legitimate way into the tournament. Plus it would ACTUALLY grow the sport in Canada. Imagine if Milltown FC could qualify to play TFC at BMO for the CCL spot?


I'm down with this...

Stouffville_RPB
04-16-2012, 02:38 PM
This is how teams can enter the CCL:

Belize, league winner (1 of 8)
El Salvador, winner of each of the 2 seasons (2 of 10) 12.5%
Cost Rica, top 2 in the league of 12 16.6%
Guatemala top 2 in the league of 12 16.6%
Honduras top 2 in the league of 10 20%
Panama top 2 in the league of 10 20%
Nicaragua league champ, 1 of 10 10%
Caribbean clubs qualify through placing top 3 in a tourny (of 15 teams from 31 countries). They play a 3 round tourney to narrow the field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFU_Club_Championship
Mexico the top 4 in the league qualify
US: Supporters Shield Winner (1 of 16 teams), MLS Cup finalists (2 of 16 teams), US Open winners (1 of 64)
Canada: Amway Canadian Champs winner (1 of 4. 1 of whom from the 3rd division) Playing a 4 game tourney

One of these things is not like the others

While I see where you're coming from the percentages of Canadian teams to qualifying teams is pretty close to Honduras and Panama (20% v 25%). Add to that Montreal and Toronto have both advanced to the QF and SF and I think people can argue that adding a team capable of making some noise to the CL is worth 5%.

It's been discussed before but until the VCup is opened to semi-pro teams (CSL, PCSL) and perhaps run in a FA Cup style this is the hand that must be played.

JamboAl
04-16-2012, 02:40 PM
People have to understand that the MLS is a USSF sanctioned league. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are in the league because these are good markets but also because FIFA, the USSF and MLS allows it. If FIFA ever decided to crack down on "foreign clubs" in a domestic competition, we'd be, in theory, thrown out of MLS. We cannot (and should not) be able to qualify for the CCL through MLS; that's why the Canadian Championship was set up. There's no choice in the matter and until that changes, if you believe the CCL is the most important competition to be in, then our "cheapie" championship is the most important competition we will compete in only because it provides a route into the big one on this continent.

But I am not anti-MLS at all. What the MLS does is allow us to have clubs capable of organizing and competing in a Cdn championship which is recognized by CONCACAF. I want us to do well in the MLS and it provides the much needed week to week competition that pays the bills and brings in most of the fans. But if we can be semi-finalists in the CCL every year, then I'll go without MLS playoffs. Not that they should be mutually exclusive!

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 02:45 PM
All I know is that I would rather beat the NY Red Bulls or the Columbus Crew and it would mean more to me, than to go and beat Joe Public FC or some team from Belize. Normally, teams in UEFA's CL that do well are also the same teams that do well in their own league. If we can't do well in our league, what makes us think going up against Mexican giants will be different?

__wowza
04-16-2012, 02:50 PM
Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year?

my mum got me my current job, when she did she said "i can get you the job, but you have to keep it". we've qualified for the champions league through the only route we're given, but it's up to us to prove we belong there. i can think of dozens of teams better than joe public or police force, but they still qualify using their local channels as well.

Fort York Redcoat
04-16-2012, 02:53 PM
Yes for sure. I don't mean to belittle the tournies importance to Canada. I just mean if taking off my TFC hat and putting on my sports fan hat, it really isn't a fair situation. Maybe it's the Canadian in me, but I want to win playing the same way as our competition. I don't want charity. Winning the Belize league is hardly the same was the Mexican. But it's a real competition amongst a larger group of fairly equal clubs. I feel Champions League is something that should be earned, not handed to you. Just my opinion though (obviously). And any all Canadian tournament certainly has value. If we created a Lamar Hunt type tourney for Canada I'd be all for it, I think it'd be great for the country and would be a more legitimate way into the tournament. Plus it would ACTUALLY grow the sport in Canada. Imagine if Milltown FC could qualify to play TFC at BMO for the CCL spot?

This is completely different from the op direction for me.

The Voyageurs Cup began as just that, a competition for lower league Canadian teams and if they starting adding teams that would be brilliant but the problem Waggy is the timing of the tournament. Could someone look into the US open schedule for me? How many months does it go? The lower leagues in Canada would have to start an expanded Vcup competition well before their seasons started and there are issues to get players in early moneywise.

Oldtimer
04-16-2012, 02:56 PM
Our progress as a soccer nation hasn't come from the CCL. It's come from MLS. Vancouver and Montreal weren't bumped up to MLS because of success in the CCL, but because of success in the league (USL).

Nice in theory. You don't think nearly 60k attendance in Montreal for a CCL match had nothing to do with it? Garber's eyes nearly popped out of his head when that happened, he mentioned it afterwards so many times. The 15k for league games was respectable, no doubt, but the 60k was a game-changer. That's what convinced MLS to talk to Joey even though he had previously pissed them off by trying to get an expansion franchise on the cheap.

BayernTFC
04-16-2012, 03:12 PM
Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year? I mean, every year there have been at least 10 MLS clubs more qualified than us that had literally zero chance to qualify. Doesn't it disrespect our region, and bring down the quality of the tournament, to not have the best clubs in there?
That's why the US has 4 berths in the CCL and Canada only has one. If US teams want in the tournament, they know how to qualify. The CCL is a tournament of national champions for the CONCACAF region. If you want to see only the best US teams playing, you have the MLS playoffs to watch. Why not have a World Cup with only the best national teams involved?

Waggy
04-16-2012, 03:19 PM
This is completely different from the op direction for me.

The Voyageurs Cup began as just that, a competition for lower league Canadian teams and if they starting adding teams that would be brilliant but the problem Waggy is the timing of the tournament. Could someone look into the US open schedule for me? How many months does it go? The lower leagues in Canada would have to start an expanded Vcup competition well before their seasons started and there are issues to get players in early moneywise.

Ya there's a few different threads going in this one. But it's all interesting discussion. Basically I'm saying to separate the V Cup from CCL qualification unless the tournament is expanded to be a REAL national tournament. Otherwise we should enter through our league like everyone else does. And in the near term, this year I'd strongly prefer to be focusing on the league, and experimenting/playing kids in the CCL games instead of either trying to win both (and running into exhaustion/injury problems), or sacrificing league wins for a shot at CCL. As a team still learning how to play, there will be loses.

I know logistically there are many many problems with expanding the V Cup. I know most CSL clubs couldn't afford to travel to Vancouver to play there, and that a lot don't have stadiums suitable to host any sorts of major games. But logistics can be overcome. Especially since money is starting to come into the soccer coffers here. There can be solutions found (having the smaller clubs have their own tournament late in the season, then introduce the big clubs early in the next or something), and revenue sharing from big clubs to small. Air Canada is a sponsor, why don't they sponsor some flights for clubs that couldn't afford them?


To completely side track this whole discussion, MLSE wants to be the leader for Soccer in Canada much like the Jays lead baseball Canada, and the Raps lead Basketball Canada right? Why aren't they doing more to help the financial situations of small clubs in Canada? Why aren't they setting up exhibitions against the CSL all stars (with profits being split among the small clubs), instead of Liverpool? Why aren't there more tournaments at BMO hosted by TFC? Why isn't there a "Toronto Cup" or some such thing, where the University teams, the CSL clubs, any other sanctioned teams in the GTA and the TFC reserves/academy play a few games over labour day weekend or something? Take advantage of the people at the Ex, bus in U of T, York and Ryerson students. Let the various ethnic teams come try their hands etc. I know they wouldn't exactly draw 20 000 people, but if they can get a few thousand people at 5 bucks each that's a shit ton of money to go into the semi pro and amateur clubs in the city. And moreover, it gives a stage and platform for non first division soccer in the mainstream consciousness.



And just to clarify, I love the CCL. I love watching the tournament. I love TFC being in it. I just don't think for us this year it should be given much in the way of importance. Success in the CCL hasn't brought us a great club. Or even a good one. But I feel success in the league WOULD necessitate that. And right now, I don't care so much about how TFC stacks up against Mexicos best (or any other country). We can't stack up to average in our own league. And to me that's a far bigger problem.


Edit: Great point oldtimer
And Bayern, tbh, yes. I do. I think our equivalent in the world cup is that ridiculous oceana spot that's guaranteed. It's not the quality that I'm talking about, more the level of competition clubs/countries face for the spot. It's not just that a country like Israel could dominate New Zealand. It's that Israel has almost zero chance to ever qualify for the world cup because they would have to play dozens of elite level games over several years to qualify, instead of playing a handful of games against some of the worst soccer nations in the world. I guess what I'm saying is the OPPORTUNITY should be equal for everyone, even if the quality isn't.

brad
04-16-2012, 03:24 PM
I don't mind being given a break so I don't feel completely bad about it. Every year in UEFA, small teams make it in and play against United and Barca despite not being at the same level. It's not meant to be a tourney of equals.

With the UEFA CL, I like that minnows that are champions from small leagues get in and sometimes ruffle feathers.

What I don't like is that teams from the stronger domestic leagues can get in despite not being anywhere near the best. Not picking on Liverpool here - but in 2004 they finished 4th - 30 points out of first. Next year they are in the CL and win it. I think it's a bit absurd that a team can be no where near the best in their domestic league, but considered the best in Europe.

I don't think TFC earned much respect for our deep run outside of our camp for similar reasons. Anyone that looks at us from the outside looking is sees the whipping boys of the league for the last 5 years. They see us 0-0-5 to start the new season - a record that only two other teams have matched in the history of the MLS. They look at our un and see luck.

BayernTFC
04-16-2012, 03:24 PM
CCL (and hopefully CWC some day)
Supporters' Shield
MLS Cup in that order.
Same here.


the above quote asks for pride in our league. I have it but no one near the pride I have for the growth of our region.
For me, it's just a league TFC plays in. Right now it's needed so TFC can exist. If TFC, VWFC or MI aren't involved, then I'm not interested.


All I know is that I would rather beat the NY Red Bulls or the Columbus Crew and it would mean more to me, than to go and beat Joe Public FC or some team from Belize.
Are you talking about in CCL competition? What stage? If it's just MLS play then, for me, whichever US squad is performing best is most interesting. Right now it's SKC, RBNY, RSL or Seattle for me. Other than that, I have little attachment to any US citites. I'm fine with just beating Americans, wherever they come from.

BayernTFC
04-16-2012, 03:34 PM
What the MLS does is allow us to have clubs capable of organizing and competing in a Cdn championship which is recognized by CONCACAF. I want us to do well in the MLS and it provides the much needed week to week competition that pays the bills and brings in most of the fans. But if we can be semi-finalists in the CCL every year, then I'll go without MLS playoffs. Not that they should be mutually exclusive!
Bingo! I appreciated the informational side of your entire post too.

ensco
04-16-2012, 06:24 PM
I think this year's format change had as an objective making it harder for minnows like us.

The guaranteed seeding of the US and Mexican teams means there is a 50% chance you have to beat out a Mexican team to get to the quarters. That was not true historically, as the was never more than one Mexican team in any of the four groups historically, and you could get to the quarters by losing to the Mexicans but coming in second (as we, and many other MLS teams, did)

ryan
04-16-2012, 06:30 PM
I don't get the hate on the V's Cup.

Regardless of the format, Canada deserves a spot in this continental tournament.

It's not TFC's fault the CSA can't develop this sport in our country so this could be a deeper competition.

If we had a true Canadian league, TFC/Montreal/VWFC would trample everyone else and the winner would get a spot that way. Would that appease people? Despite really not being any different...

eustacchio
04-16-2012, 06:53 PM
Without reading through the entire thread (or anything passed the original post), I disagree.

Shep
04-18-2012, 07:21 AM
Without reading through the entire thread (or anything passed the original post), I disagree.

TBH I expected a lot more disagreement, but I also don't give a fuck.

TFC have been on the fail train for a while now, it's showing in the stands, and on the boards. I'm in this 'till I die, and I can handle a year without double comps if it means getting ourselves sorted in this league and becoming a top club. I really think we are hindered by the number of matches and travelling the squad is involved in at the start of the season, and taking some of that mess away until we find our feet again seems like something that might help change the state of things for the better.

What's the other option? Dump another coach? Start over again? Fuck that shit, Pabst Blue Ribbon!

Oldtimer
04-18-2012, 07:37 AM
If we had a true Canadian league, TFC/Montreal/VWFC would trample everyone else and the winner would get a spot that way. Would that appease people? Despite really not being any different...

It would be comparable to Celtic or Rangers getting into the UEFA CL. Everyone else in the SPL is a comparative minnow (interestingly enough, the SPL has 2 divisions and an unbalanced schedule, much like MLS, where you play the teams in your division more than the ones in the other division).

Belfast_Boy
04-18-2012, 07:58 AM
league comes first for me. CCL is a close second. I want my team to win. I'm not here to hope they lose anything. being in CCL recently should have helped our form this season.

ryan
04-18-2012, 08:40 AM
It would be comparable to Celtic or Rangers getting into the UEFA CL. Everyone else in the SPL is a comparative minnow (interestingly enough, the SPL has 2 divisions and an unbalanced schedule, much like MLS, where you play the teams in your division more than the ones in the other division).

Exactly what I had in mind when I made the comment. It's the very same argument, but I can't see anyone arguing those two clubs don't deserve their shot in UEFA competitions.

Waggy
04-18-2012, 08:56 AM
It would be comparable to Celtic or Rangers getting into the UEFA CL. Everyone else in the SPL is a comparative minnow (interestingly enough, the SPL has 2 divisions and an unbalanced schedule, much like MLS, where you play the teams in your division more than the ones in the other division).

It'd be much more legit than the equiv, which I guess would be Celtic/Hibs/Aberdeen and, well I don't know what team would be the equiv of a D3 Edmonton franchise, Falkirk* or something? playing a 4 game round robin.

*Falkirk is a street near my parents house, only way I know of em haha. And yes I didn't include Rangers intentionally. Rangers and Celtic are relatively even. Thus far in our histories, especially in this competition, it's been a 1 way street for us.

Davenport
04-18-2012, 09:00 AM
I want TFC to start playing in MLS.

eustacchio
04-18-2012, 11:20 AM
TBH I expected a lot more disagreement, but I also don't give a fuck.

TFC have been on the fail train for a while now, it's showing in the stands, and on the boards. I'm in this 'till I die, and I can handle a year without double comps if it means getting ourselves sorted in this league and becoming a top club. I really think we are hindered by the number of matches and travelling the squad is involved in at the start of the season, and taking some of that mess away until we find our feet again seems like something that might help change the state of things for the better.

What's the other option? Dump another coach? Start over again? Fuck that shit, Pabst Blue Ribbon!

Yeah, I don't know what the solutions is, but it's definitely not to dump another coach/reboot the squad again. I guess the only solution is to not play as many games next season. The CCL didn't used to mean this much to me, and at the beginning of last season I would have totally agreed with you. The CCL is the only place where we've had moderate success, and I'd be more than willing to repeat that next year. Of course, I'm not willing to repeat what has thus far been our MLS season.

I think it's only going to get worse this season when it starts all over again. That I think is a big problem.

trane
04-18-2012, 11:36 AM
^ SO the solution is definitely not to dump a coach even if he wins not games, the solution is to lose less games by playing less games?

Certainly if you only play 20 games you can not loss 30. Is that our plan?

Fort York Redcoat
04-18-2012, 11:46 AM
Ya there's a few different threads going in this one. But it's all interesting discussion. Basically I'm saying to separate the V Cup from CCL qualification unless the tournament is expanded to be a REAL national tournament. Otherwise we should enter through our league like everyone else does. And in the near term, this year I'd strongly prefer to be focusing on the league, and experimenting/playing kids in the CCL games instead of either trying to win both (and running into exhaustion/injury problems), or sacrificing league wins for a shot at CCL. As a team still learning how to play, there will be loses.

I know logistically there are many many problems with expanding the V Cup. I know most CSL clubs couldn't afford to travel to Vancouver to play there, and that a lot don't have stadiums suitable to host any sorts of major games. But logistics can be overcome. Especially since money is starting to come into the soccer coffers here. There can be solutions found (having the smaller clubs have their own tournament late in the season, then introduce the big clubs early in the next or something), and revenue sharing from big clubs to small. Air Canada is a sponsor, why don't they sponsor some flights for clubs that couldn't afford them?


To completely side track this whole discussion, MLSE wants to be the leader for Soccer in Canada much like the Jays lead baseball Canada, and the Raps lead Basketball Canada right? Why aren't they doing more to help the financial situations of small clubs in Canada? Why aren't they setting up exhibitions against the CSL all stars (with profits being split among the small clubs), instead of Liverpool? Why aren't there more tournaments at BMO hosted by TFC? Why isn't there a "Toronto Cup" or some such thing, where the University teams, the CSL clubs, any other sanctioned teams in the GTA and the TFC reserves/academy play a few games over labour day weekend or something? Take advantage of the people at the Ex, bus in U of T, York and Ryerson students. Let the various ethnic teams come try their hands etc. I know they wouldn't exactly draw 20 000 people, but if they can get a few thousand people at 5 bucks each that's a shit ton of money to go into the semi pro and amateur clubs in the city. And moreover, it gives a stage and platform for non first division soccer in the mainstream consciousness.



And just to clarify, I love the CCL. I love watching the tournament. I love TFC being in it. I just don't think for us this year it should be given much in the way of importance. Success in the CCL hasn't brought us a great club. Or even a good one. But I feel success in the league WOULD necessitate that. And right now, I don't care so much about how TFC stacks up against Mexicos best (or any other country). We can't stack up to average in our own league. And to me that's a far bigger problem.


Edit: Great point oldtimer
And Bayern, tbh, yes. I do. I think our equivalent in the world cup is that ridiculous oceana spot that's guaranteed. It's not the quality that I'm talking about, more the level of competition clubs/countries face for the spot. It's not just that a country like Israel could dominate New Zealand. It's that Israel has almost zero chance to ever qualify for the world cup because they would have to play dozens of elite level games over several years to qualify, instead of playing a handful of games against some of the worst soccer nations in the world. I guess what I'm saying is the OPPORTUNITY should be equal for everyone, even if the quality isn't.

Fantastic. I don't agree with it all but the sentiment rings out as clear as a bell.

I think the MLS clubs have done a lot to grow the game locally in the relative short time they've been around as MLS clubs.

The problems I see is how much attention the sport is garnering is causing unrest to those already entrenched in the leagues. They've have survived this far and don't feel the need to change or feel responsible for taking the next step in growth of the game. I'd love to have been in on some of the convos that lead to the Academies joining the CSL (TFC and Impact).

I think adding to the Vcup is most everyone's goal but the league structure at that level seems always in flux. We now have League One Ontario that had the strongest teams in the CSL. We now have a Quebec League- How long before the CSL teams from Quebec leave? We have a PCSL that has many teams but some are American and thereby wouldn't qualify for the Vcup.

I'm not saying that these complications can't be looked past to add eligible D4 champions but I could see why it would be unattractive to deal with a league that still may be in trouble with the CSA.

TFCwestcan
04-18-2012, 12:12 PM
While I was really really pleased about the CCL run this year, especially beating LA, I kind of worried knowing how difficult the next series with Santos was going to be. I think it was really deterimental to our MLS start this year, the coaching staff under played the team in pre-season due to the amount of future games (CCL/MLS/Vcup) they had to play. While no one wants the team to lose the Vcup I think it is very clear that this team needs no distractions at this point including what has to be pointed out above - mid season friendlies.

Waggy
04-18-2012, 12:31 PM
Fantastic. I don't agree with it all but the sentiment rings out as clear as a bell.

I think the MLS clubs have done a lot to grow the game locally in the relative short time they've been around as MLS clubs.

The problems I see is how much attention the sport is garnering is causing unrest to those already entrenched in the leagues. They've have survived this far and don't feel the need to change or feel responsible for taking the next step in growth of the game. I'd love to have been in on some of the convos that lead to the Academies joining the CSL (TFC and Impact).

I think adding to the Vcup is most everyone's goal but the league structure at that level seems always in flux. We now have League One Ontario that had the strongest teams in the CSL. We now have a Quebec League- How long before the CSL teams from Quebec leave? We have a PCSL that has many teams but some are American and thereby wouldn't qualify for the Vcup.

I'm not saying that these complications can't be looked past to add eligible D4 champions but I could see why it would be unattractive to deal with a league that still may be in trouble with the CSA.

Talk to Dino about that one time. I'm sure he could talk for days. I was with him for one meeting with the CSL with their soon to be fired commissioner. My god. The guy was enthusiastic but really just didn't get it. Such a limiting view of the potential for non D1 soccer in the country. No ambition to become much more than they were. Hopefully the Canada Soccer elections bring in some forward thinkers, who value growing the game and teaching kids properly over collecting as much money from the government/sponsors as they can (for themselves)

Fort York Redcoat
04-18-2012, 12:57 PM
Talk to Dino about that one time. I'm sure he could talk for days. I was with him for one meeting with the CSL with their soon to be fired commissioner. My god. The guy was enthusiastic but really just didn't get it. Such a limiting view of the potential for non D1 soccer in the country. No ambition to become much more than they were. Hopefully the Canada Soccer elections bring in some forward thinkers, who value growing the game and teaching kids properly over collecting as much money from the government/sponsors as they can (for themselves)

Palm meet face. It's not that I'm even asking for them to do it for the good of the game FFS! I'd settle for them making the greedy decision of co-operation for expansion for more money!!

Torontotonto
04-18-2012, 05:49 PM
I would wecome a MLS playoff birth after the last five years but I think the concacaf champions league games have been some of our most exciting games no matter if it was the Nutralite or advancement beyond.
The miracle in Montreal up to the ultimate peak for me TFC vs. LA at Skydome, what great support and a night to remember.

I would prefer we get rid of the meaningless friendly matches, whoever the worldly competition is.