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Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 11:40 AM
No ratings here, no 1-5, just a straight yes/no.

My $.02, we should keep him for two reasons.

1. We said we would, and he said he needed 2 seasons before we saw results. I think that if we see more than 50% wins in the second half/third of the season we can say he has been successful, even if there are no playoffs.

2. It will be SOOOO bad for morale if he goes and I don't think we would see a turnaround anyway, he can't do much more damage right now and if we take on a new manager at the end of the season we will have 2 or 3 DP spots open (If they don't fill JDG's spot it will be three) and a whole bunch of leeway to build a brand new team for 2013 anyway.

And now... let the shit show begin anew!

ExiledRed
04-15-2012, 11:44 AM
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/zombies.jpg

Rene Kingsriver
04-15-2012, 12:00 PM
No ratings here, no 1-5, just a straight yes/no.

My $.02, we should keep him for two reasons.

1. We said we would, and he said he needed 2 seasons before we saw results. I think that if we see more than 50% wins in the second half/third of the season we can say he has been successful, even if there are no playoffs.

2. It will be SOOOO bad for morale if he goes and I don't think we would see a turnaround anyway, he can't do much more damage right now and if we take on a new manager at the end of the season we will have 2 or 3 DP spots open (If they don't fill JDG's spot it will be three) and a whole bunch of leeway to build a brand new team for 2013 anyway.

And now... let the shit show begin anew!

1 I think he should get till halfway through this season. With regards to your measure, if we go 3-5-9 and then say 9-3-5 are you just going to dismiss the first 17 games? if there is a turnaround it has to have us in contention for a play-off spot by midway.

2. From what I've seen Winter going will just as likely increase morale, I think his popularity with the players is often overstated on here.

Red CB Toronto
04-15-2012, 12:05 PM
I believe he should be retained throughout this season and then evaluated. The only option I believe you have in replacing him, if they do see fit based on reports of a rift with Mariner is to bring Paul's good drinking buddy Steve Nichol.

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 12:24 PM
I believe he should be retained throughout this season and then evaluated. The only option I believe you have in replacing him, if they do see fit based on reports of a rift with Mariner is to bring Paul's good drinking buddy Steve Nichol.

If Winter stays the season and we finish out of a playoff spot I hope this happens.

That being said I don't see why we couldn't bring Nicol in now instead of wasting another season.

The question I'd like to ask those that want him to stay is other than the distaste of having yet another coach...what reasons do you have for wanting him around?

ArmenJBX
04-15-2012, 12:26 PM
Why is Nicol the answer?
New England hasn't had it much better than us.
Not trying to be a pain in the ass or anything, I'm just wondering why he would be a better fit?

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 12:29 PM
Nicol couldn't win anything in 10 years with the Revs, why would you want him to run TFC?

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 12:38 PM
4 MLSE Cup appearances working for arguably the cheapest team the league doesn't impress you?

Let's apply this lofty standard with Winter shall we? What has he won as coach?

ensco
04-15-2012, 12:40 PM
Too early for this poll. Come back in 4 or 5 games. Season's not lost yet.

Beach_Red
04-15-2012, 12:44 PM
4 MLSE Cup appearances working for arguably the cheapest team the league doesn't impress you?

Let's apply this lofty standard with Winter shall we? What has he won as coach?

Wasn't that pretty much a different league? No DPs, fewer teams, all of them pretty cheap. As the league got better, NE got worse.

On the other hand, maybe he's exactly what TFC needs, and also about the only guy who might come, TFC sure looks like a coach-killer.

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 12:48 PM
Too early for this poll. Come back in 4 or 5 games. Season's not lost yet.

This has nothing to do with whether the season is lost or not, it has to do with sentiment towards Winter TODAY.

Blowing Bubbles
04-15-2012, 12:48 PM
Firing Winter and bringing in Nichol would be the last straw for me. I'm not in the mood to watch dire route1 442 British hoofball at all. I already get enough of that with fucking Fat Sam at WHU

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 12:49 PM
Wasn't that pretty much a different league? No DPs, fewer teams, all of them pretty cheap. As the league got better, NE got worse.

On the other hand, maybe he's exactly what TFC needs, and also about the only guy who might come, TFC sure looks like a coach-killer.

Which proves he can work with cheap players and make them effective. Isn't that part of our problem?

Now, if you told me he's shown an inability to work with DP quality players I'd strike him off my wishlist. Is that the case?

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 12:50 PM
4 MLSE Cup appearances working for arguably the cheapest team the league doesn't impress you?

Let's apply this lofty standard with Winter shall we? What has he won as coach?

What has he won in 10 seasons? Um... he hasn't been around for 10 seasons. In one season he got us to the CONCACAF Semi-Finals, not saying that forgives everything but if we are going on accomplishments I think that is one that should be included if cup appearances are included.

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 12:51 PM
Firing Winter and bringing in Nichol would be the last straw for me. I'm not in the mood to watch dire route1 442 British hoofball at all. I already get enough of that with fucking Fat Sam at WHU

Your choice I guess. I am more concerned with effectiveness and results.

And I saw a whole lot of long-ball yesterday.

ensco
04-15-2012, 12:56 PM
This has nothing to do with whether the season is lost or not, it has to do with sentiment towards Winter TODAY.

But it's not the time. This wouldn't be just a coaching change. To pick an example where an early season coaching change worked, this isn't the St Louis Blues, where the pieces are all in place, but they were off to a bad start.

We know the pieces are not in place. So either this is a bad bump on the road (looking less likely by the game, but still very much a possibility) or WinterMariner can't do the job. In which case the time to fix it is May/June (ie before the summer transfer window) or the off season. In our case, given that we have hardly any (maybe zero) discovery signings left, even the summer probably makes no sense.

Then layer on MLSE's need to do storytelling in September for SSH purposes, and you have your answer. If they bring in a new guy now, and he flails around for the rest of the season, what do you say during the renewal period....?

The time to weigh in on this is late spring or summer. The players all come on here (read the Paul James book). It's just destabilizing to push this now.

iy12l
04-15-2012, 12:56 PM
Not his fault JDG is a shit player and Dunfield is scared of the ball. I heard he is trying to sign Javi Calleja of Osasuna after JDG's contract expires which would make our midfield 10x better. I would give him till the end of the season, i think when Frings returns it can be a turning point to our season and we start getting wins.

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 01:00 PM
Firing Winter and bringing in Nichol would be the last straw for me. I'm not in the mood to watch dire route1 442 British hoofball at all. I already get enough of that with fucking Fat Sam at WHU

No offense, but there ARE other teams to watch/support.

I really like Italian Series A, I think the quality is second to none as most of the teams are good. <- No, I am not Italian, I just like the soccer.

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 01:01 PM
What has he won in 10 seasons? Um... he hasn't been around for 10 seasons. In one season he got us to the CONCACAF Semi-Finals, not saying that forgives everything but if we are going on accomplishments I think that is one that should be included if cup appearances are included.

It might help if you do some research first.

I'll put up Nicol's playoff record, US Open Cup and Superliga wins against Winter's NCC win (which he needed TWO kicks at the can) any day of the week.

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 01:01 PM
But it's not the time. This wouldn't be just a coaching change. To pick an example where an early season coaching change worked, this isn't the St Louis Blues, where the pieces are all in place, but they were off to a bad start.

We know the pieces are not in place. So either this is a bad bump on the road (looking less likely by the game, but still very much a possibility) or WinterMariner can't do the job. In which case the time to fix it is May/June (ie before the summer transfer window) or the off season. In our case, given that we have hardly any (maybe zero) discovery signings left, even the summer probably makes no sense.

Then layer on MLSE's need to do storytelling in September for SSH purposes, and you have your answer. If they bring in a new guy now, and he flails around for the rest of the season, what do you say during the renewal period....?

The time to weigh in on this is late spring or summer. The players all come on here (read the Paul James book). It's just destabilizing to push this now.

But it's not as though MLSE or Anselmi are going to look at this and say 'well Lattes posted a poll and 70% of RPB say to get rid of Winter so let's give him the boot'

Anyway, by the poll it seems to me that most people are of the 'keep him' camp anyway.

Fort York Redcoat
04-15-2012, 01:32 PM
It might help if you do some research first.

I'll put up Nicol's playoff record, US Open Cup and Superliga wins against Winter's NCC win (which he needed TWO kicks at the can) any day of the week.

Haha I take your point but I care very little about every one of those tournaments.

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 01:47 PM
Haha I take your point but I care very little about every one of those tournaments.

Also, if you include Voyageurs cup to making CCL semis Winter has had more accomplishments on a time weighted basis by far.

I think the only real argument for Nicol is that if we DID fire Winter he would be the only one willing to come here.

Azerban
04-15-2012, 01:52 PM
just a reminder that death is certain and that everyone goes out covered in their own shit and piss

with that in perspective, winter is ok

Oldtimer
04-15-2012, 02:37 PM
Too early for this poll. Come back in 4 or 5 games. Season's not lost yet.

The voice of reason.

ArmenJBX
04-15-2012, 02:44 PM
I'm sorry but no.
When we had John Carver working with cheap players, everyone cried out for DPs - "We need a DP if we want to make playoffs!"
When Preki brought in a DPs and a bunch of hard working players, everyone cried out for no DPs - "JDG is shit, Mista is useless, etc etc"
When we had turf, everyone asked for grass - "we can't win on turf" but the grass hasn't helped us that much either, when we're booting the ball in the air 24/7.
When we had De Rosario, everyone said he was either the saviour of this team or he was selfish. Same with Maicon. Same with Chad Barrett.

When Winter came, the consensus was that we would be a better team. That hasn't happened either. When he signed Frings and Koevermans, we all knew we were getting aging stars who would only be getting worse, a stopgap measure at best.

Now, we need centerbacks. Will that solve our problems, when we don't score goals? Nope.
So do we need forwards? Well then, how does that solve our defending.
Do we need midfielders? Apparently so, since JDG and Dunfield aren't cutting it.

The point I'm trying to make here is that we are so quick to ask for a change, and when it doesn't work out, ask for the opposite.

We HAD cheap, MLS players at one point - that didn't work out. Now, we have international players, that isn't working either. So the idea that we need to get MLS players to be successful, is founded on what, exactly?

I swear, the flip-flopping on this board is incredible. Every single decision goes challenged and when it doesn't work, the opposite is true. It's opposed for the sake of being opposed.

Combined with an auto-hate button primed at all times towards MLSE who have NOTHING to do with our current failures (as tough as that is to hear), what are we asking for, exactly?

jabbronies
04-15-2012, 02:56 PM
We didn't play all that poorly yesterday, we did have the ball for most of the first and second half. We had control of our own destiny yesterday, which I'd rather have than to be flat outright beat.
The team wasn't horrible, they just made too many small mistakes and only 1 cost us dearly. Inthe grand scheme of the game, we weren't shit.

Why don't we call for Winter's head in August when we have a clearer picture of where we stand?

MartinUtd
04-15-2012, 03:00 PM
I don't see how replacing him mid season will make matters better. Give him until October and if the writing is on the wall by then I should hope MLSE are at least two months into their search for a replacement.

ExiledRed
04-15-2012, 03:01 PM
This question is academic, Winter will resign before he is scrapped.

Winter knows he's underperforming even if you guys dont.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-15-2012, 03:02 PM
Not entirely convinced anymore that hes teh man for the job but its way to early to scrap him and even if we did who would we replace him with?
I want to give him the rest of the season although the start has got me really down, prob the most down ive ever been on this team.
(on a sorta side note, itd be interesting to see if DeKlerk or Rongen would take over)

mcolvy
04-15-2012, 03:06 PM
I think the team should take advantage of the young age DP rules and bring in some South American stars in the making. Players with lots of potential who will eventually move to greater things, but take TFC somewhere along the way.

ensco
04-15-2012, 03:06 PM
This question is academic, Winter will resign before he is scrapped.

Winter knows he's underperforming even if you guys dont.

omg I thought it would be 100 years until I saw you here again .... !! g:D

We agreed on this last year and I agree 100% with this now btw .... Winter has to be pretty worried about what is happening to his resume right now. It'd be smart to precipitate a crisis so that he has a story to tell the next potential employer.

In fact here's how it'll happen - the day after the sale closes, Winter will go to the new ownership and say "give me 100% control today (ie fire Mariner, Cochrane and maybe Beirne) or I'm out." They'll say no, and he'll skedaddle faster than you can say "Ruud Gullit"

DangerRed
04-15-2012, 03:09 PM
Fine, I'll be the first to say it: sack him and do it now. Winter has had a LONG time to learn on the job, which he shouldn't have been allowed in the first place. Now, his inability to learn and adjust to this league is about to cost us another season, and we're not even in May yet.

If you're saying it's too early for this poll, you've not been watching closely. Winter should be replaced with someone with deep MLS experience who would be either able to yet again make major changes to the squad - including, without a doubt, the DPs - or who'd be able to extract gold from the shit mine which we currently call our starting 11.

An 0-5 start is inexcusable given how much time Winter has had here. It's even less so when you consider this is a parity-skewed league.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-15-2012, 03:16 PM
where would you find this deep experienced mls coach? just asking
also experience doesnt necessarily mean good results

DangerRed
04-15-2012, 03:22 PM
where would you find this deep experienced mls coach? just asking
also experience doesnt necessarily mean good results

Yes, you're right. But inexperience almost ALWAYS has meant poor results in this league. As for where you find a coach like this, with the right size of pay cheque, anything is possible.

Ajax TFC
04-15-2012, 03:34 PM
hypothetical question: if Winter gets fired, do we hire a coach with a similar vision, or do we scrap it all and go back to traditional coaches? Personally I think we should hire a coach with a similar vision, because I strongly think the Dutch system can work in MLS. I think most of our losses so far can be attributed to poor personnel selection in the defense and especially the midfield. The fact that he selects Dunfield and Harden for every game is a strike against him, but doesn't automatically mean his system is crap.

What do you think? If we get to the point where something has to go, do we scrap just the coach, or do we scrap the entire system and culture that they've worked to build as well?

tfc2008
04-15-2012, 03:40 PM
I hope that aron do the best for him self and leave this crap,there is no onetrainer who can make a team here in toronto.
aron is a good trainer stupped for him he choice the wrong city, toronto isnt a soccer city.
aron wat you gone do goodluck but dont let your name make bad because your in toronto.
hopfully i see you back with off a good european team are a good mls team.

jaxul
04-15-2012, 03:43 PM
Keep him. No coach would do much better with the current personnel available to him. Let him finish the year.

nickio
04-15-2012, 03:53 PM
I think its more than just Winter. This will speak about the organization that is TFC if they fire him and break the promise.

I have seen what his team can do and how well they can play, now it's about making it consistent and getting the right people in place. It's still a work in progress, but what we have now is Much MUCH better than same time last year, despite the result.

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 05:41 PM
I think its more than just Winter. This will speak about the organization that is TFC if they fire him and break the promise.

I have seen what his team can do and how well they can play, now it's about making it consistent and getting the right people in place. It's still a work in progress, but what we have now is Much MUCH better than same time last year, despite the result.

Break what promise? How about the promise they made to us about having the best front office in the league? I'd say keeping that promise supersedes whatever promise you are referring to.

As for your statement that what we have now is "better than same time last year"...you realize that what we had last year was what Winter/Mariner had put together. If you compare the results to what we had under Preki or Carver...then we are no further ahead and in fact somewhat worse.

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 05:43 PM
An 0-5 start is inexcusable given how much time Winter has had here. It's even less so when you consider this is a parity-skewed league.

The sad thing is that from what I can see on this board, apparently it IS excusable.

I think Toronto fans pay lipservice to excellence but when it comes down to doing what needs to be done, there isn't the stomach for it. Hence our lack of championships.

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 05:54 PM
Haha I take your point but I care very little about every one of those tournaments.

Why? Because you're Canadian and don't care about the US Open Cup even though it's 10x the tournament the NCC is?

Or the Superliga, which in it's short run was arguably considered more prestigious than CONCACAF's previous version of the Champions League?

The point? Steve Nicol won both. He...unlike us, has beaten Mexican teams en route to doing so.

His record? 112-108-81...I believe that is considered a winning record.

His New England Revolution reached the playoffs 8 years in a row including 4 finals appearances, until these last two years when his time appeared up. He is 4th in all-time MLS wins.

But no...that resumé is hardly impressive up against an academy coach for a big club with no senior team experience, now THAT's impressive.





Gawd...year 6 and not only do we not even have HALF of that success....we're not anywhere near it. But he wouldn't be good enough for this club. The guy who led us to our worst year since expansion despite having a league MVP and a Designated Player on the roster...he is obviously much better suited.

This town drives me nuts.

tfc2008
04-15-2012, 06:22 PM
Better make a forum:


Keep the front office are crap them,because there sit the big problem and not with the coach.

starter
04-15-2012, 06:57 PM
Give him at least one more year. The personnel he is got IMO is below league median, and it is taking longer than expected to sort out. I am surprised that Mariner not bringing in more talent though. Having 3 DPs may also leave less cash for signings of more Soolsmas, Platas, and RJs.
AW wants to turn this team into contenders, not just average MLS team, his way. I trust he knows what to do better than anybody here does, no offense.
Regarding team selection, who but him knows best who is fitter, and has better attitude on any single day, so we may wonder why, but that is about it.

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 07:24 PM
Give him at least one more year. The personnel he is got IMO is below league median, and it is taking longer than expected to sort out. I am surprised that Mariner not bringing in more talent though. Having 3 DPs may also leave less cash for signings of more Soolsmas, Platas, and RJs.
AW wants to turn this team into contenders, not just average MLS team, his way. I trust he knows what to do better than anybody here does, no offense.
Regarding team selection, who but him knows best who is fitter, and has better attitude on any single day, so we may wonder why, but that is about it.

Replace "AW" with "MoJo” and it's deja vu.

starter
04-15-2012, 07:58 PM
Replace "AW" with "MoJo” and it's deja vu.
AW is an outsider, hi subscribes to the leading ideas, and he just may eventually deliver. On the other end, we change a coach and start moving personnel again, and will be further away from a product, and meanwhile will be listening to new excuses why we are not there yet.

Azerban
04-15-2012, 08:01 PM
This question is academic, Winter will resign before he is scrapped.

Winter knows he's underperforming even if you guys dont.

I honestly can't remember the last time a coach of a sports team has gone 'Yeah, I've done a real shit job here. Damn. Fucked this right up. So I'm just going to quit. Oh, that giant bonus I'd get if you fired me instead? I'd hate to take all that money with me when I go, you could really use it to help repair my mistakes. No problem, my pleasure.'

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 08:13 PM
AW is an outsider, hi subscribes to the leading ideas, and he just may eventually deliver. On the other end, we change a coach and start moving personnel again, and will be further away from a product, and meanwhile will be listening to new excuses why we are not there yet.

And if he doesn't deliver? What evidence is telling you he may yet deliver? The 1 win in 9 games?
The league-worst ppg, gpg & goal difference? How much worse can another coach do? In his 2nd year he still has a record worse than most expansion clubs in their FIRST year!

What I see in your post is another person buying into the marketing of "total football" this club has pushed since his arrival.

Azerban
04-15-2012, 08:19 PM
AW is an outsider, hi subscribes to the leading ideas, and he just may eventually deliver. On the other end, we change a coach and start moving personnel again, and will be further away from a product, and meanwhile will be listening to new excuses why we are not there yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy

Whoop
04-15-2012, 08:26 PM
If Winter is fired I think Thomas Rongen steps in, not Steve Nichol.

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 08:31 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy

I've been looking for the definition of this fallacy all week! Thanks man

DangerRed
04-15-2012, 08:36 PM
The sad thing is that from what I can see on this board, apparently it IS excusable.

I think Toronto fans pay lipservice to excellence but when it comes down to doing what needs to be done, there isn't the stomach for it. Hence our lack of championships.

I think I have done what I could have and I voted with my wallet. Even though Winter called me personally on Rememberance Day to tell me it'll all be better, I didn't renew my tickets. I've not been to BMO once this season so far and won't be attending a match until next month for a friend (likely my only one this year).

I believe firmly that if you stop settling for bullshit, they will stop trying to sell it to you. I also realize I have no direct impact on whether Winter stays or goes. So I do what I can. I dont spend and I complain. I'll always love the club but I really don't like what has happened to it since the last game of the 2009 season. We were on the verge of the playoffs. Instead of making them, we've lost all foreseeable chance of making them.

We should all be furious. I don't understand why some people around here continue to insist that that is unreasonable.

ManUtd4ever
04-15-2012, 08:38 PM
I was of the opinion that a managerial change at this juncture would likely be counter productive for a couple of reasons; it is premature, and it's unlikely that a quality coaching candidate would be available to immediately step in and fill the void. That being said, it can't get any worse than 0-5 and 3 consecutive shutouts on home soil, so I can certainly understand the sentiment to push for a coaching change sooner rather than later.

iy12l
04-15-2012, 08:39 PM
Why? Because you're Canadian and don't care about the US Open Cup even though it's 10x the tournament the NCC is?

Or the Superliga, which in it's short run was arguably considered more prestigious than CONCACAF's previous version of the Champions League?

The point? Steve Nicol won both. He...unlike us, has beaten Mexican teams en route to doing so.

His record? 112-108-81...I believe that is considered a winning record.

His New England Revolution reached the playoffs 8 years in a row including 4 finals appearances, until these last two years when his time appeared up. He is 4th in all-time MLS wins.

But no...that resumé is hardly impressive up against an academy coach for a big club with no senior team experience, now THAT's impressive.





Gawd...year 6 and not only do we not even have HALF of that success....we're not anywhere near it. But he wouldn't be good enough for this club. The guy who led us to our worst year since expansion despite having a league MVP and a Designated Player on the roster...he is obviously much better suited.

This town drives me nuts.

Steve Nicol isnt a good coach and mls was really different at the time when he was winning titles. Aron Winter is a good coach its just that he has shit players or guys that dont do shit. Our backline has improved once cann came and with Doneil coming on. The real problem now is our midfield, but the good thing is that Frings is back so Dunfield can go back to the bench. There are report with TFC linked to Javi Calleja and if it is true this can really boost our midfield and he good at defending too. Anyways, i dont think Nicols would do anything with our youth academy, or youth academy graduates.

Rene Kingsriver
04-15-2012, 08:43 PM
If Winter is fired I think Thomas Rongen steps in, not Steve Nichol.

Yes! my friend said the same thing and it makes complete sense. Bring in Rongen, initially till the end of the season, he'll keep the same "system" but has the MLS experience and even a Cup to his name. I think he's also a far better communicator and man manager than Winter

Rene Kingsriver
04-15-2012, 08:45 PM
Steve Nicol isnt a good coach and mls was really different at the time when he was winning titles. Aron Winter is a good coach its just that he has shit players or guys that dont do shit. Our backline has improved once cann came and with Doneil coming on. The real problem now is our midfield, but the good thing is that Frings is back so Dunfield can go back to the bench. There are report with TFC linked to Javi Calleja and if it is true this can really boost our midfield and he good at defending too. Anyways, i dont think Nicols would do anything with our youth academy, or youth academy graduates.

Aaaagh! just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true, where is your evidence!

Beach_Red
04-15-2012, 08:49 PM
I was of the opinion that a managerial change at this juncture would likely be counter productive for a couple of reasons; it is premature, and it's unlikely that a quality coaching candidate would be available to immediately step in and fill the void. That being said, it can't get any worse than 0-5 and 3 consecutive shutouts on home soil, so I can certainly understand the sentiment to push for a coaching change sooner rather than later.

The way MLS contracts work it's unlikely there will be many significant roster changes during this season. The 3 DPs will remain and there really isn't much cap space for more signings, is there? So, it'll be these players or a few trades within MLS bringing in other players at about the same calibre.

So, the question is, could a different coach get better results with essentially the same roster? What is Danny Dichio doing these days?

starter
04-15-2012, 08:50 PM
And if he doesn't deliver? What evidence is telling you he may yet deliver? The 1 win in 9 games?
The league-worst ppg, gpg & goal difference? How much worse can another coach do? In his 2nd year he still has a record worse than most expansion clubs in their FIRST year!

What I see in your post is another person buying into the marketing of "total football" this club has pushed since his arrival.
Well, it is hard to defend the record, but if history is any guide we did not make the playoffs under any previous coaches, did we?
The change TFC undergoing is more drastic than before, and I would like to believe the story behind it.
On "throwing good money after bad", investment gurus are split between cutting your losses and doubling down, it all depends if your glass is half-full?

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 08:53 PM
Your post makes a substantial leap in logic. You say his record is hard to defend but previous coaches didn't make the playoffs so that's the reason why you think he will deliver?

starter
04-15-2012, 08:55 PM
My point is that if we change coaches and more importantly, style again we will be further away from the finished product.

nfitz
04-15-2012, 08:56 PM
We should all be furious. I don't understand why some people around here continue to insist that that is unreasonable.I don't understand why some people around here continue to point out that they don't support the team, don't go to games, don't intend to go to games - and yet this is a supporters group.

Isn't that kind of like hanging around around the Young Liberals discussion group and saying that you should vote Conservative?

denime
04-15-2012, 08:58 PM
If Winter is fired I think Thomas Rongen steps in, not Steve Nichol.

This,

Only coach who is knows to coach and play variation of 4-3-3 will be hired for TFC from now on,that is club philosophy that we were told by Thomas R.and Mariner during the parents TFC Academy meting last month.

nascarguy
04-15-2012, 09:00 PM
I say we put mlse on a boat and send that boat to the centre of lake ont then set that boat on fire

winter needs 3 full season

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 09:01 PM
We can all agree there are risks either way, but to the 'scrap Winter' camp. Do you REALLY think that we will LIKELY have a better season this year OR next year if we get rid of him now?

IF he doesn't deliver (not WHEN, but IF) at the end of the season all three DP slots will be free, any MLS contracts they are stuck in they can buy out or trade for next to nothing (second round draft pick etc) If a new manager comes in he will basically be able to build the team from scratch, if they want to get really intense they can put into contracts that they want training through the winter months to 'gel' the team. They could have nothing but 'hard nosed English style' football players if they want. From what I have seen that is mostly what we produce here in Canada anyway.

Is there anyone that really thinks that THIS season could be made better by getting rid of him? The team is pretty much set, not much wiggle room in the budget to 'start fresh' and Winter is part-way done his project so it would be hard for this 'MLS style' coach people want to really do anything as far as changing things goes.

Basically what I am saying is that it seems to me that the better option is to keep him as the team may improve under him this season, it is unlikely to improve under someone else.

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 09:04 PM
My point is that if we change coaches and more importantly, style again we will be further away from the finished product.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Pinning your hopes on a wish that he will do better but the decision is based on a distaste for more changes is a recipe for disaster. He either is or isn't the right guy for the job and if you think he is, it should be pretty easy to eloquate why.

Dkolish3
04-15-2012, 09:04 PM
Winter should be kept

1. Some academy players seem to be flourishing under him like Stinson and Morgan
2. What happens to Academy Vision if he's replaced with a "4-4-2 Long Ball" Englishman
3. We've looked good at home and just need Koeve or someone else to finish chances, I discount the road games since everyone in MLS sucks on the road (Except Chivas who've never had a home advantage)
4. I discount the theory that a 4-3-3 possession based high pressure team can't win in MLS since SKC seems to manage just fine
5. I'm interested to see how the team performs with a competent MLS caliber CB (Cann) and Frings are back in the fold.
6. Lets remember guys we weren't outplayed by Chivas or Columbus would we be having this conversation if the goalie hadn't cleared the line, or Emory not had a brain hemorrage.
7. Winter has shown great tactics and tactical flexibility in the past something that's needed in MLS I mean the 3-4-3 shouldn't have worked as well as it did, nor should using Henry as a fullback to cover Brek Shea in the Dallas game.






Edit: the point is moot anyway considering that they aren't firing Burke or Colangelo who have had more time and less success

DangerRed
04-15-2012, 09:08 PM
I don't understand why some people around here continue to point out that they don't support the team, don't go to games, don't intend to go to games - and yet this is a supporters group.

Isn't that kind of like hanging around around the Young Liberals discussion group and saying that you should vote Conservative?

Nothing of the sort. If to you "supporting the team" means mindlessly going to games and cheerleading the management and players regardless of the consistently horrible results, then i would suggest that "supporter" doesnt mean what you think it means. But I really am too tired of having the same discussion over and over. Winter should go. That's where I'll leave it, and you can debate whether I'm being un-supportive if you like. Enjoy the short season.

Jeff s
04-15-2012, 09:14 PM
Fire him.

Hate firing managers but he has shown me what kind of manager he is.

First off, in my honest opinion, hiring him in the first place was a big mistake. TFC wanted to set up a new system and plan, so what do they do? They hire a manager with no experience and no proven winning record. When you hire a manger like him, you can't tell if he will be a success or a failure. Well, as of now he's proven to be a poor manager. IF they wanted this new whole set up to work, they should've hire an experienced manager with a good record, not one who has never in his life experienced managing a team, on top of that REBUILD a team. How does he know this "rebuild" will work? Has he done it before? Ridiculous to ask someone to rebuild a team without ever even managing one.

His record is another reason he should go. I honestly can't believe so many people are backing up a guy with what? 6 wins in 40 games? Sounds like a real keeper. This guy continually played the same poor players ( Harden, Dunfield ) over and over, refuses to change the 4-3-3 formation thats CLEARLY not working, he only makes straight swap substitutions ( this guy can't even take out a defender when we're losing with a couple of mins left, unbelievable ) and also given away some of our prospects and last years MVP.

So wheres the part that we should keep him? Does he have a proven record that he's a manager that gets wins? Has he shown signs that things will turn around?

0-5 start, 2 goals in 5 games, 3 home losses, lost to an expansion team. All this with virtually the same team from last season. So no excuse about "this team is not used to each other" crap.

Get a manager with experience and a proven record, at least TRY to save this season. It honestly can't get any worse. Just admit that this "system" was doomed from the start "once a certain person named Klinsmann, who ironically also picked the U.S Olympic team's manager, he really knows how to pick the best ones..."

I hope things will change, and I will eat my words, but I sadly don't see it happening. Heck I'm hoping for this "total football". We can barely create chances

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 09:17 PM
The incredible thing is that among all the posts in favour of keeping him, the great majority have the reason for doing so as "it can't get worse". Wow...that's some ringing endorsement.

Jeff just boiled it down to this very simple point: Shouldn't we TRY to save the season? It seems far too many are willing to have a repeat of 2011.

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 09:19 PM
Two wrongs don't make a right. Pinning your hopes on a wish that he will do better but the decision is based on a distaste for more changes is a recipe for disaster. He either is or isn't the right guy for the job and if you think he is, it should be pretty easy to eloquate why.

Bang on Roogsy!

He IS the man for the job because:

He has turned out some good boys from the Academy.
He brought in a couple of very good DP's
IMO 4-3-3 CAN work in MLS, and you don't need 'stars' to do it. IIRC there is a team in the MLS that is doing it pretty well... oh RIGHT, that team that has gone 6-0 so far...
He is a handsome man. <- Gotta count for something.

Beach_Red
04-15-2012, 09:20 PM
We can all agree there are risks either way, but to the 'scrap Winter' camp. Do you REALLY think that we will LIKELY have a better season this year OR next year if we get rid of him now?

IF he doesn't deliver (not WHEN, but IF) at the end of the season all three DP slots will be free, any MLS contracts they are stuck in they can buy out or trade for next to nothing (second round draft pick etc) If a new manager comes in he will basically be able to build the team from scratch, if they want to get really intense they can put into contracts that they want training through the winter months to 'gel' the team. They could have nothing but 'hard nosed English style' football players if they want. From what I have seen that is mostly what we produce here in Canada anyway.

Is there anyone that really thinks that THIS season could be made better by getting rid of him? The team is pretty much set, not much wiggle room in the budget to 'start fresh' and Winter is part-way done his project so it would be hard for this 'MLS style' coach people want to really do anything as far as changing things goes.

Basically what I am saying is that it seems to me that the better option is to keep him as the team may improve under him this season, it is unlikely to improve under someone else.

The contracts are actually with MLS, not each team, so they can't make the changes you suggest (too bad, because it is a good idea).

As for results from a different coach, sure why not? Happens all the time. Sure, it probably happens just as often that the results don't improve but it's not a given.

But the big problem with this team is, who would decide to change the coach? Is there anyone in the front office who really knows the team well enough to know if the coach is doing a good enough job? This isn't like the St. Louis Blues where the GM made the change because of coaching personality and the effect he felt it would have on the players. Maybe Mariner could have some input on that but it's unlikely he has the authority to call for a coaching change.

It comes down to Anselmi and he's not going to make a change until, as Ensco points out, season ticket renewals are going out and he needs a story.

Rene Kingsriver
04-15-2012, 09:21 PM
The incredible thing is that among all the posts in favour of keeping him, the great majority have the reason for doing so as "it can't get worse". Wow...that's some ringing endorsement.

This SG boards are a very different world though, a straw poll of independent fans would give you a much harsher assessment of Winter believe me

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 09:24 PM
This SG boards are a very different world though, a straw poll of independent fans would give you a much harsher assessment of Winter believe me

I believe you. I have previously pointed out this strange supporters group phenomenon that is the opposite of what you'd expect from SGs.

starter
04-15-2012, 09:26 PM
We have no guarantee that style change ( Nicol ) will make TFC instant success. Winter may not have been logical choice to start with, but by now he should have his feet wet, and my preference is to continue with the experiment. I am excited with Soolsma and Plata development, as well as RJ and Silva progress, hell even Avila looked decent. I would like AW to be better motivator though to instill winning attitude.

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 09:26 PM
The incredible thing is that among all the posts in favour of keeping him, the great majority have the reason for doing so as "it can't get worse". Wow...that's some ringing endorsement.

Jeff just boiled it down to this very simple point: Shouldn't we TRY to save the season? It seems far too many are willing to have a repeat of 2011.

Ya, I would HATE to make it to the CONCACAF quarter finals again. What a disaster that was...

As for 'ringing endorsement' that is unfair in that I think you are overstating what people are saying.

What I am hearing/reading is basically the same thing I wrote about with risk management. There are risks either way, keeping him is near in-arguably the less risky move.

I can't for the life of me imagine an argument that would reasonably say that it is less risky to get rid of him.

Rene Kingsriver
04-15-2012, 09:31 PM
I believe you. I have previously pointed out this strange supporters group phenomenon that is the opposite of what you'd expect from SGs.

Well I'm not going to criticize, personally it doesn't surprise me at all, I completely understand their reaction. Supporters are supposed to have faith and hope, unfortunately I think its in the wrong guy.

Azerban
04-15-2012, 09:31 PM
What I am hearing/reading is basically the same thing I wrote about with risk management. There are risks either way, keeping him is near in-arguably the less risky move.

I can't for the life of me imagine an argument that would reasonably say that it is less risky to get rid of him.

you're not very imaginative

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 09:35 PM
this is it.
the day has arrived where i will no longer post on this forum.
its one thing to have a discussion its another thing to continue to trash talk this organization and threaten to stop supporting this team.

nfitz... you said it all.
a lot of people here talk like they are not going to support the team anymore if this continues... please leave now!
move along what are you waiting for stop posting on here stop coming to the games cause im tired of hearing bs while im trying to watch the game.
bs threats about not supporting the team anymore.
same fools are gonna be at the games when we are in playoffs one day.
i almost got off the street car yesterday and walked the rest of the way home cause i couldnt handle the negative comments

two side notes for my final posting - off topic
- im watching domenica sportiva on rai --- morosinis death was sad
- how cool would it be if rpbs won the contest for the sportsnet magazine cover???

toronto till i die...
i thought by having toronto fc in this city we would be able to educate people on the game and develop it
but i was wrong... there is no dedication amongst the general public...
poor performance???... so what its part of the game get over it... all the fake fans are now surfacing

My wife, who couldn't care less about football gave me a bit of a pep-talk today. She said 'so what if TFC lose, you get to go to soccer games with your son who loves them and goes nuts for them'

And you know what, she is right. Everything after that is gravy for me.

I love soccer, I think the only 'bad' game I saw TFC play this season was in Montreal and teams have off games.

How electric was the SL game here? I thought the stadium was going to blow up when we scored. Those are the moments we live for.

Through thick and thin, Toronto Til I Die!

Oh, and yes, I AM a fucking cheerleader so go fuck yourselves if you actually think that is a bad thing or derogatory in ANY way, I will cheer in the rain, snow, scorching heat and wind-bitten cold.

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 09:35 PM
you're not very imaginative

So then explain to me how it is less risky to get rid of him now and get a new manager.

UltraSuperMegaMo
04-15-2012, 09:36 PM
I voted fire. I think they need to give him 3 or 4 games still, but if it gets as bad as 0-8 or 0-9, I don't see realistically how he can stay. As for all those saying we need to stick with the 4-3-3, I don't think the team should be married to any formation, particularly one that's not working.

brad
04-15-2012, 09:44 PM
Bang on Roogsy!

He IS the man for the job because:

He has turned out some good boys from the Academy.
He brought in a couple of very good DP's
IMO 4-3-3 CAN work in MLS, and you don't need 'stars' to do it. IIRC there is a team in the MLS that is doing it pretty well... oh RIGHT, that team that has gone 6-0 so far...
He is a handsome man. <- Gotta count for something.

A system is far more than the formation on the pitch. KC do not play the 4-3-3 the way we do (at least not last year). Here is a good article comparing our version and theirs:
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2011/06/07/talking-tactics-how-skcs-4-3-3-bucks-traditional-set

The traditional three-forward arrangement with wingers is all about supplying balls initially to the men out wide, asking them to move possession forward. Kansas City, however, are more about long balls into Bunbury, who looks for teammates out wide making runs inside.
An interesting quote

Beach_Red
04-15-2012, 09:44 PM
So then explain to me how it is less risky to get rid of him now and get a new manager.

You're right, they will always do the less risky thing. This is not a bold, "go big or go home," organization. This is not a team that will ever make the gutsy move. They'll hire a consultant and look at reports and analyse their options and make the safe choice.

ManUtd4ever
04-15-2012, 09:52 PM
toronto till i die...
all the fake fans are now surfacing

You are entitled to your opinion, but supporters have every right to voice their displeasure with an organization that has remarkably eclipsed their own previous record of futility this season.

Our fan base has been financially exploited and emotionally abused like no other fan base in the history of the league since the inception of the franchise.

At this point, should the negative reaction come as a surprise?

I actually think we have the most patient fan base in the league, given the circumstances.

Abou Sky
04-15-2012, 09:57 PM
A system is far more than the formation on the pitch. KC do not play the 4-3-3 the way we do (at least not last year). Here is a good article comparing our version and theirs:
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2011/06/07/talking-tactics-how-skcs-4-3-3-bucks-traditional-set

An interesting quote

Super honestly, no offense intended here.

Go, torrent the LAG/RSL/DCU games and you will see they basically play a VERY similar game as TFC plays except they find the back of the net.

EDIT: I mean the SKC games vs: LAG/RSL/DCU

narduch
04-15-2012, 10:01 PM
I do think Winter should be fired. But if Anselmi and Beirne aren't fired with him it may be totally pointless. If the Rollins article about the dysfunctional management team are true I think it might make it hard to even properly point fingers.

One thing I certainly do believe is that if you think the people running the team aren't up to the job, it is more beneficial to get the new management team in place as soon as possible. Let them get to work on fixing this mess.

brad
04-15-2012, 10:05 PM
I'm undecided on keep vs fire, although I lean towards fire. I want to see 3 -5 more games first. If the results don't turn by then I want him gone. I don't subscribe to the keep him around mentality if it's not working. Stability only works if you are building on something that is progressing in the right direction. Keeping an under performer around is pointless.

My biggest concern about Winter though is this whole thing sounds like another version of MoJo's 5 year plan. Think about what Winter has said so far.

-He was clear that last year was a rebuilding year, and that results would be bumpy. He also said that playoffs were very much a target. It was never a goal to throw the year away to gut team but that is what happened.
-He then said that last year was the rebuild, and we'd be competitive this year, and by year three we wouldn't be just going for the playoff's, we'd be going to win it. Then a while later he started talking about how playoffs in year two might be too early.
-He told us at the supporters town hall that TFC would be competitive, with a settled roster by MLS first kick this year, and well, we are 0-0-5 - our worst start ever.

Do I think another manager could get more out of this team? Yes. Winters problem is the old square peg/round whole issue. We don't have the players that are needed to make his system work. yet he continues to try. I actually do think we have a squad capable of being a mid-table MLS team. Pack the midfield, play a direct game, and we'd be better than we are today. It wouldn't be the most appealing style to watch, but neither is our "possession based" 4-3-3 where we don't actually manage to keep possession. There are also all the rumors about the rift between him and Mariner, with Winter favoring his set of player over Mariners, which could explain some of the questionable player selections.

ManUtd4ever
04-15-2012, 10:13 PM
I'm undecided on keep vs fire, although I lean towards fire. I want to see 3 -5 more games first. If the results don't turn by then I want him gone. I don't subscribe to the keep him around mentality if it's not working. Stability only works if you are building on something that is progressing in the right direction. Keeping an under performer around is pointless.

My biggest concern about Winter though is this whole thing sounds like another version of MoJo's 5 year plan. Think about what Winter has said so far.

-He was clear that last year was a rebuilding year, and that results would be bumpy. He also said that playoffs were very much a target. It was never a goal to throw the year away to gut team but that is what happened.
-He then said that last year was the rebuild, and we'd be competitive this year, and by year three we wouldn't be just going for the playoff's, we'd be going to win it. Then a while later he started talking about how playoffs in year two might be too early.
-He told us at the supporters town hall that TFC would be competitive, with a settled roster by MLS first kick this year, and well, we are 0-0-5 - our worst start ever.

Do I think another manager could get more out of this team? Yes. Winters problem is the old square peg/round whole issue. We don't have the players that are needed to make his system work. yet he continues to try. I actually do think we have a squad capable of being a mid-table MLS team. Pack the midfield, play a direct game, and we'd be better than we are today. It wouldn't be the most appealing style to watch, but neither is our "possession based" 4-3-3 where we don't actually manage to keep possession. There are also all the rumors about the rift between him and Mariner, with Winter favoring his set of player over Mariners, which could explain some of the questionable player selections.

Agreed on all points.

Roogsy
04-15-2012, 10:36 PM
I'm undecided on keep vs fire, although I lean towards fire. I want to see 3 -5 more games first. If the results don't turn by then I want him gone. I don't subscribe to the keep him around mentality if it's not working. Stability only works if you are building on something that is progressing in the right direction. Keeping an under performer around is pointless.

My biggest concern about Winter though is this whole thing sounds like another version of MoJo's 5 year plan. Think about what Winter has said so far.

-He was clear that last year was a rebuilding year, and that results would be bumpy. He also said that playoffs were very much a target. It was never a goal to throw the year away to gut team but that is what happened.
-He then said that last year was the rebuild, and we'd be competitive this year, and by year three we wouldn't be just going for the playoff's, we'd be going to win it. Then a while later he started talking about how playoffs in year two might be too early.
-He told us at the supporters town hall that TFC would be competitive, with a settled roster by MLS first kick this year, and well, we are 0-0-5 - our worst start ever.

Do I think another manager could get more out of this team? Yes. Winters problem is the old square peg/round whole issue. We don't have the players that are needed to make his system work. yet he continues to try. I actually do think we have a squad capable of being a mid-table MLS team. Pack the midfield, play a direct game, and we'd be better than we are today. It wouldn't be the most appealing style to watch, but neither is our "possession based" 4-3-3 where we don't actually manage to keep possession. There are also all the rumors about the rift between him and Mariner, with Winter favoring his set of player over Mariners, which could explain some of the questionable player selections.

I'm down with this.

I'm willing to see what he does for the next 5 games. If TFC don't turn it around...well...if you thought I freaked out when DeRo got shipped out you ain't seen nuthin yet!

One thing though...TFC need a MINIMUM of 7 points from the next 5 games. That means 1 win and 4 draws or 2 wins and 1 draw. Anything less and we fall even further behind in our goal to reach the playoffs and it slips even further away. Remember, at this point we need 1.55 points per game average meaning BETTER than 1 win every other game.

Ajax TFC
04-15-2012, 10:38 PM
to those suggesting that we should replace Winter with Rongen, I disagree. Rongen was brought in to manage the youth development. It's one of his strengths. Let him do that job. If you move him, have fun finding someone else who understands youth development who's willing to come here. I think so far Winter's biggest downfall has been crappy player selection, not the system, or the training. IMO if Winter is fired, we should promote De Klerk. He clearly has a lot of knowledge of the system, pressure, movement, ect. He already runs the drills (and like I said, training doesn't seem to be the problem), and he seems to be a lot more energetic, and more of a motivator.

West220Side
04-15-2012, 10:48 PM
Didn't vote in this one:
- Can't make up my mind oh weighing the good, the bad, and the ugly to make a decision on the matter.
- I do believe that Winter will be fired by management if he remains winless up until the 8th game mark.

Winter is very lucky that he doesn't have a player coming out and creating controversy or he would REALLY be in trouble.

Another point on my mind:
- Its not that i'm against the 4-3-3 formation, however i'm very mad that Winter hasn't adapted it to MLS play. Such as Sporting Kansas City, to be fair though Sporting Kansas City has much better players at there disposal then we do (in my opinion)

T-boy
04-15-2012, 10:57 PM
Everyone knows I'm not a fan of Winter. End of story for me.

I'll support TFC till I die, but I can't support Winter, he hasn't shown any ability to improve the team so far, is totally inflexible in terms of his vision for the club and tactics, and appears to fall out of favour with players like brothers and sisters squabbling. His mana management skills are zero, and he can't keep players happy for anything - they all leave and complain about him and TFC, and then go on to be better players.

If TFC were in any other league in the world, we would have been relegated last season, and we would be bottom of the second division already this season - he would be fired in any other league in the world. Why should it be any different in the MLS.

Winter out for me.

T-boy
04-15-2012, 11:04 PM
I know the "Before and after DeRo: Interesting stats (pre-post 37 TFC games) (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31465-Before-and-after-DeRo-Intersting-stats-(pre-post-37-TFC-games))" thread has been closed - but can we restart it and rename it: Before and after Winter's arrival: Interesting stats (pre-post 37 TFC games) (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31465-Before-and-after-DeRo-Intersting-stats-(pre-post-37-TFC-games)) - as you can easily replace Dero with Winter and come up with the same set of statistics.

Why is anybody still backing a head coach that has made the team worse since his arrival? We all complained about Preki, but statistacally the team is worse under winter!

Ajax TFC
04-15-2012, 11:20 PM
T-boy, there are several sets of players worth looking at: There's Jacob Peterson and Dan Gargan who have no technical ability and football IQ - those players left pissed off at Winter. But why? Is it because Winter's such a horrible person, or is it because his system required them to be able to do things that they couldn't. TFC wouldn't be any better off with either of those two. Gargan's being his own hard working self in Chicago, while Peterson got released at the end of the season. Then there's Attakora - the one who supposedly had issues with Winter, but after leaving the team still insists that there was never anything between them. Then there's Alan Gordon who's issue was with our medical staff not dealing with his injury properly. Then there's Santos who never gave a fuck about anything one way or the other. And then there's Plata and Eckersley who liked it enough that they made their move here permanent. I think I'll take Plata and Eckersley wanting to come here over Peterson and Gargan leaving in a grumpy mood as an indicator of Winter's relationship with his players

spe18
04-15-2012, 11:42 PM
I know the "Before and after DeRo: Interesting stats (pre-post 37 TFC games) (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31465-Before-and-after-DeRo-Intersting-stats-%28pre-post-37-TFC-games%29)" thread has been closed - but can we restart it and rename it: Before and after Winter's arrival: Interesting stats (pre-post 37 TFC games) (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?31465-Before-and-after-DeRo-Intersting-stats-%28pre-post-37-TFC-games%29) - as you can easily replace Dero with Winter and come up with the same set of statistics.

Why is anybody still backing a head coach that has made the team worse since his arrival? We all complained about Preki, but statistacally the team is worse under winter!

I'm suddenly reminded of how at Notre Dame (in football), Charlie Weis stayed on as head coach for quite a while, even though his record was worse then his 2 predecessors. :)

spe18
04-15-2012, 11:51 PM
I'm suddenly reminded of how at Notre Dame (in football), Charlie Weis stayed on as head coach for quite a while, even though his record was worse then his 2 predecessors. :)

And just as I'm going through some Youtube clips, I suddenly ran into this (listen at around the 30 second mark!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzYwaah9p68

And here's some reaction from the very notorious student section @ Notre Dame Stadium post game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg2Cxd4BqJI

ArmenJBX
04-16-2012, 12:03 AM
There's no doubt in my mind that the players are behind Aron Winter.
Having seen both sides of the coin you can tell the players are backing their manager - I don't think he's done a terrible job either.

Think of it this way, we have all the parts for a super car but we haven't put it all together yet. Until this team is put together and starts clicking as one unit, we'll have hiccups, which is why, losing Frings, we lost our engine, and so, the whole unit hasn't even started up again.

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 12:43 AM
More like a Hyundai that's been outfitted with a used supercharger that blew up.

Supercars have high-end parts from top to bottom. We've taken a low-end car and have pieces of a '98 Ferrari added on.

trane
04-16-2012, 06:26 AM
If he keeps on losing he will have to be scrapped. But at this point, he needs to be given a chance to turn it around. I always say it takes some time to evaluate fairly, which some think is a whole season, I always thought about 10 games is enough. Well he has had a season, and now he has had another five games. Has the team improved? Yes, even in this streak we have played better. Have we improved enough? Results are the bottom line, and if we are failing.

Management shuold be looking at alternatives at this point. If winter turns it around great, if not we have someone to take over quickly.

123 elite
04-16-2012, 06:56 AM
In MLS played 39 won 6. Half of those with HIS team and 3 of them against expansion teams. A shocking shocking record. Pad it out all you want with NCC games or CCL games its still dreadful. And what system continually lumps long high balls to Plata for the odd opportunity that he actually gets one only to send in a hopeful cross to DK who cannot jump more than 2 inches off the ground. He kicked the post more effectively at the weekend than the ball. Johnson isn't a runner, we have no midfield and that is the main thing that is yet to be addressed and is the cause of most of our problems. Its not the centre backs. They are under too much pressure because we have no midfield to either pressure them or take the pressure off our defence. It clearly isn't working.

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 07:56 AM
This was in today's news section:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/04/15/mls_toronto_fc_playoffs_aron_winter/

For those on the "Keep Winter Around" bandwagon, this article outlines a pretty decent option for how he can right the ship.

T-boy
04-16-2012, 07:57 AM
In MLS played 39 won 6. Half of those with HIS team and 3 of them against expansion teams. A shocking shocking record. Pad it out all you want with NCC games or CCL games its still dreadful. And what system continually lumps long high balls to Plata for the odd opportunity that he actually gets one only to send in a hopeful cross to DK who cannot jump more than 2 inches off the ground. He kicked the post more effectively at the weekend than the ball. Johnson isn't a runner, we have no midfield and that is the main thing that is yet to be addressed and is the cause of most of our problems. Its not the centre backs. They are under too much pressure because we have no midfield to either pressure them or take the pressure off our defence. It clearly isn't working.

And yes most TFC fans,according to this thread, still want Winter here. It's unbelievable how little Toronto people value winning anything!

Oldtimer
04-16-2012, 08:20 AM
In MLS played 39 won 6. Half of those with HIS team and 3 of them against expansion teams. A shocking shocking record. Pad it out all you want with NCC games or CCL games its still dreadful. And what system continually lumps long high balls to Plata for the odd opportunity that he actually gets one only to send in a hopeful cross to DK who cannot jump more than 2 inches off the ground. He kicked the post more effectively at the weekend than the ball. Johnson isn't a runner, we have no midfield and that is the main thing that is yet to be addressed and is the cause of most of our problems. Its not the centre backs. They are under too much pressure because we have no midfield to either pressure them or take the pressure off our defence. It clearly isn't working.

Bruce Arena lost a lot of his first games. Then his team did fantastic and won the cup. Now it's at the bottom of the west. The difference? Omar Gonzalez. The reality in MLS is that your team, every team has a lot of mediocre plumbers who have defects in how they play which is why they are drawing middling or lower salaries in MLS instead of playing in the EPL. Then there are a few players, not necessarily DPs who have a massive impact in how well the team plays. Every good MLS team has them. So rather than looking at the plumbers mistakes (because every team has plumbers making similar mistakes), look at they key piece acquisition.

Note that this salary capped situation is very different from how teams are built in non-capped leagues, where you don't have these mediocre players.

The root problem with TFC is not in the coaching department, Winter is in at least the top 50% of the league, even if he is not a brilliant strategist. The root problem is in player acquisitions, where Mariner failed to get our version of Omar Gonzalez. Partly this is due to being hamstrung by Mo Johnston's contract for JDG preventing the easy solution (a DP defender), but a good manager is able to find those value gems that out-perform their salary levels. Both defenders brought in were busts, and that means that Frings needs to cover for the defense.

Frings being injured means the team would lose, just as I predicted.

Abou Sky
04-16-2012, 08:26 AM
This was in today's news section:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/04/15/mls_toronto_fc_playoffs_aron_winter/

For those on the "Keep Winter Around" bandwagon, this article outlines a pretty decent option for how he can right the ship.


but if a determination has been made that Winter’s 4-3-3 tactical approach is not workable in MLS, then a coaching change could be just the tonic that TFC needs. That said, this club notoriously suffers from instability at the management level, so there will be a certain perception of "Here we go again" if ownership decides to take this route.
Already addressed this, 4-3-3 obviously IS workable as SKC plays a 4-3-3 very similar to the way Toronto FC plays.


Instead, Toronto FC should approach the Canadian Championship like Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger usually approaches the Carling Cup in England. Make it an opportunity to blood the team's young players and the best academy prospects.
Ryan Johnson, Danny Koevermans, Torsten Frings and Milos Kocic have a seat. Keith Makubuya, Jordan Hamilton and Quillan Roberts, show us what you got. Let Jim Brennan or Danny Dichio take the coaching reigns and allow him to grow as a coach from the experience, while TFC's Winter can remain focused on meticulously preparing for each league game.



Most defo agree.

brad
04-16-2012, 08:27 AM
Bruce Arena lost a lot of his first games. Then his team did fantastic and won the cup. Now it's at the bottom of the west. The difference? Omar Gonzalez. The reality in MLS is that your team, every team has a lot of mediocre plumbers who have defects in how they play which is why they are drawing middling or lower salaries in MLS instead of playing in the EPL. Then there are a few players, not necessarily DPs who have a massive impact in how well the team plays. Every good MLS team has them. So rather than looking at the plumbers mistakes (because every team has plumbers making similar mistakes), look at they key piece acquisition.

This illustrates a critical issue I have with Winter. An MLS coach needs to get the best out of the "Plumbers" as well as the DP's. While I like the idea of playing out from the back, when you have "plumber CB's" that can't pass a football, you simply can't succeed adhering to a system that requires that. If you spend some time with passing stats in the MLS chalkboards, you will see just how dreadful the numbers for distribution from the back are. That's just one of the most obvious cases, but there are others as well.

ExiledRed
04-16-2012, 08:31 AM
T-boy, there are several sets of players worth looking at: There's Jacob Peterson and Dan Gargan who have no technical ability and football IQ - those players left pissed off at Winter. But why? Is it because Winter's such a horrible person, or is it because his system required them to be able to do things that they couldn't. TFC wouldn't be any better off with either of those two. Gargan's being his own hard working self in Chicago, while Peterson got released at the end of the season. Then there's Attakora - the one who supposedly had issues with Winter, but after leaving the team still insists that there was never anything between them. Then there's Alan Gordon who's issue was with our medical staff not dealing with his injury properly. Then there's Santos who never gave a fuck about anything one way or the other. And then there's Plata and Eckersley who liked it enough that they made their move here permanent. I think I'll take Plata and Eckersley wanting to come here over Peterson and Gargan leaving in a grumpy mood as an indicator of Winter's relationship with his players

Santos was a decent player, who could always pull a pretty goal out of his ass whatever the score. Saying he 'never gave a fuck' is disingenuous, and merely convenient to your point.

Ill tell you how Ajax's embarassment treats his players:

He makes 3 panicked tactical substitions at half time and consequently has injured players limping around the pitch for over thirty minutes in the second half.
He drags them out in front of the media and makes them apologise for trying to negotiate better contracts for themselves.
He tells the media the players are crap because they're bemused by his tactics, when the media claim they are bemused by his tactics also, he tells the media that they are ignorant.
He forces players on less than 60k to play in positions they are unfamiliar with in order to try and bolster his sad parody of an interchangeable 4-3-3 system.

He couldnt motivate a dog to eat a biscuit.

Now I can see from your name that you're starry eyed over the guy, but he's not representing Ajax very well right now, and to be honest that connection has been his only real qualification. He has come here hyped as a specialist, but in reality had less first team coaching experience than Chris Cummins.

Time to wake up from this fantasy, TFC fans. You cant make the MLS capitulate to a system that it can beat with just a slight tactical adjustment, week after week after week.

Oldtimer
04-16-2012, 08:34 AM
This illustrates a critical issue I have with Winter. An MLS coach needs to get the best out of the "Plumbers" as well as the DP's. While I like the idea of playing out from the back, when you have "plumber CB's" that can't pass a football, you simply can't succeed adhering to a system that requires that. If you spend some time with passing stats in the MLS chalkboards, you will see just how dreadful the numbers for distribution from the back are. That's just one of the most obvious cases, but there are others as well.

So what's wrong with Bruce Arena? His team is losing. Same world class DPs, same coach, same plumbers, 95% same players. From champ to chump by losing one key player. That's why player acquisition is the key to winning (and why TFC couldn't win under Mo, no matter who was coaching). Those key players make all the difference.

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 08:40 AM
This illustrates a critical issue I have with Winter. An MLS coach needs to get the best out of the "Plumbers" as well as the DP's. While I like the idea of playing out from the back, when you have "plumber CB's" that can't pass a football, you simply can't succeed adhering to a system that requires that. If you spend some time with passing stats in the MLS chalkboards, you will see just how dreadful the numbers for distribution from the back are. That's just one of the most obvious cases, but there are others as well.

TFC said last year they want to develop their own players who can play the system they want them to play.
Not only is the academy going to churn out first team players, it will also have to churn out "Plumbers"
I think until we start to see more graduates of the academy, our "plumbers" are not going to be able to execute the system properly, mainly due to the fact they have not been trained to play this system.

Do you change the system to accommodate the players? or do you change the players to accommodate the system?
I think the latter of the two, however, it's hard to find system players at the price we need.

Beach_Red
04-16-2012, 08:52 AM
So what's wrong with Bruce Arena? His team is losing. Same world class DPs, same coach, same plumbers, 95% same players. From champ to chump by losing one key player. That's why player acquisition is the key to winning (and why TFC couldn't win under Mo, no matter who was coaching). Those key players make all the difference.

Yes, I see what you mean. They should have spent more money on a GM with good connections to bring in better players. This is pretty much what we've been saying from the very beginning, the problem has always been further up the management chain. From the very start they hired someone with zero experience in finding players (they probably bought into the idea that his agent could do it cheaper than a real GM would have cost).

You make a good point that an MLS coach makes very little difference and given that it seems pointless to keep bringing in guys with no connection to the team who most likely leave as soon as the can.

Maybe they are still hoping that Dichio will do the job someday.

trane
04-16-2012, 08:53 AM
There is no logic to it other then that I would like to see someone whom I know will give it his all to turn this around. I have no reason to think he is ready. And if I was not disillusioned with the club I would never call for this, in fact I would be loudly critical. But I cannot help but to want someone I can believe in as a leader on the sideline.

I would love to see him try and right this ship. As unlikely as that may be.

gomesv
04-16-2012, 09:07 AM
Get rid of him.....I'm tired of his line-up choices and his sub choices during games.....and I have this feeling the players have tuned him out......it was a bad hiring from the start....waiting isnt going to make it better. Just my opinion g:D

brad
04-16-2012, 09:09 AM
So what's wrong with Bruce Arena? His team is losing. Same world class DPs, same coach, same plumbers, 95% same players. From champ to chump by losing one key player. That's why player acquisition is the key to winning (and why TFC couldn't win under Mo, no matter who was coaching). Those key players make all the difference.

Can't comment on LA today as I'm not following the results, but I do recall Arena getting good results last year when his DP's were not available.

tfcmanu
04-16-2012, 09:10 AM
FIRE TOM ANSELMI.....I want, not good enough.....I want lots of things too!.......we need someone who knows football culture! http://www.mlse.com/inside_mlse/tom_anselmi_bio.aspx

T-boy
04-16-2012, 09:12 AM
T-boy, there are several sets of players worth looking at: There's Jacob Peterson and Dan Gargan who have no technical ability and football IQ - those players left pissed off at Winter. But why? Is it because Winter's such a horrible person, or is it because his system required them to be able to do things that they couldn't. TFC wouldn't be any better off with either of those two. Gargan's being his own hard working self in Chicago, while Peterson got released at the end of the season. Then there's Attakora - the one who supposedly had issues with Winter, but after leaving the team still insists that there was never anything between them. Then there's Alan Gordon who's issue was with our medical staff not dealing with his injury properly. Then there's Santos who never gave a fuck about anything one way or the other. And then there's Plata and Eckersley who liked it enough that they made their move here permanent. I think I'll take Plata and Eckersley wanting to come here over Peterson and Gargan leaving in a grumpy mood as an indicator of Winter's relationship with his players

Gargan is an interesting point actually. So is Nana. Both of these players we ALL thought were good players under Preki! Gargan was a bit of a hero in 2010 in fact, we all loved him! And we all thought Nana was the "next big thing" to come out of the MLS, didn't we?

And then Winter took over, and all our opinions of these two players changed overnight! So, did the players turn out to be sh!t, or did the new coach turn them sh!t?

You can definitely argue that Winter brought the worst out of these players! How can two players who we ALL thought were good MLS players, turn into a shambles in one off season? The ONLY factor that changed was that Winter was the head coach.

We can say the same about Santos - he had a great season in 2010, then along came Winter, and Santos turned into a horrible player!

Do we see a pattern here? I do!

So argueing that these players were terrible and needed cutting from the roster is actually incorrect - all these players were perfectly good MLS players under Preki, and we all loved them!

TFC fans have very short memories, and very selective memories sometimes!

Beach_Red
04-16-2012, 09:15 AM
There is no logic to it other then that I would like to see someone whom I know will give it his all to turn this around. I have no reason to think he is ready. And if I was not disillusioned with the club I would never call for this, in fact I would be loudly critical. But I cannot help but to want someone I can believe in as a leader on the sideline.

I would love to see him try and right this ship. As unlikely as that may be.

How come this got merged but not the other comments that were in the thread? Someone made a good point about not wanting Dichio to become Spinal Tap's drummer...

Anyway, I would also like to see Dichio coach the team, but only if they also brought in a proper GM/President. This organization has a history of hanging out front line guys to dry while execs remain unscathed and I'd hate for that to happen to Dichio.

brad
04-16-2012, 09:20 AM
TFC said last year they want to develop their own players who can play the system they want them to play.
Not only is the academy going to churn out first team players, it will also have to churn out "Plumbers"
I think until we start to see more graduates of the academy, our "plumbers" are not going to be able to execute the system properly, mainly due to the fact they have not been trained to play this system.

Do you change the system to accommodate the players? or do you change the players to accommodate the system?
I think the latter of the two, however, it's hard to find system players at the price we need.

What I have said from early last season - you change your tactics to suit the players at your disposal and shift towards the system you want as the players become available. I'm not in favor waiting for Academy players to come through so that TFC can start looking like a competent team.

Waiting on the Academy rests on two false hopes.
1)That the academy will turn out a first team full of players
2)That it will do it in short order.

On point one, virtually no academy is going to do this.
On point two, even if it does, I think we need 5-10 years before it happens on any level. I say that number as it is pretty well accepted (by our coaching staff included) that you need to get the player from a young age and train them up through the ranks that way. Polishing a 16 year old is only going to get you so far.

The other thing is - the fan base is bleeding out - fast. I don't think this club has a few years to wait on the Academy.

maninb
04-16-2012, 09:20 AM
No decent coach would want to come he knowing they'd be FIRED before even getting chance...Winter must be given the rest of the season and then evaluated....Also I know our CBs aren't great but our BIGGEST PROBLEM is attack!!! 2 goals in 5 games????

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 09:21 AM
How come this got merged but not the other comments that were in the thread? Someone made a good point about not wanting Dichio to become Spinal Tap's drummer...


My Gosh, the amount of 80's references on this board is unreal! We need to have some sort of daily limit on this shit!

Anyways, to answer the first part of the question, that was my miss. As I was merging, the other posts came in. Didn't see them otherwise i would've merged them.

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 09:25 AM
What I have said from early last season - you change your tactics to suit the players at your disposal and shift towards the system you want as the players become available. I'm not in favor waiting for Academy players to come through so that TFC can start looking like a competent team.

Waiting on the Academy rests on two false hopes.
1)That the academy will turn out a first team full of players
2)That it will do it in short order.

On point one, virtually no academy is going to do this.
On point two, even if it does, I think we need 5-10 years before it happens on any level. I say that number as it is pretty well accepted (by our coaching staff included) that you need to get the player from a young age and train them up through the ranks that way. Polishing a 16 year old is only going to get you so far.

The other thing is - the fan base is bleeding out - fast. I don't think this club has a few years to wait on the Academy.

All good points, but you don't have to wait 5-10 years to get a bench player from the youth system in. Only takes a couple years to groom an 18 year old who then gets groomed as a bench/reserve player to move to the first team.

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 09:27 AM
If you want to blame winter for anything, it has to be Player management.

One example of this is playing Plata as a starter. The guy is clearly a super sub who should be brought in once the defense is tired.

brad
04-16-2012, 09:30 AM
Gargan is an interesting point actually. So is Nana. Both of these players we ALL thought were good players under Preki! Gargan was a bit of a hero in 2010 in fact, we all loved him! And we all thought Nana was the "next big thing" to come out of the MLS, didn't we?

And then Winter took over, and all our opinions of these two players changed overnight! So, did the players turn out to be sh!t, or did the new coach turn them sh!t?

You can definitely argue that Winter brought the worst out of these players! How can two players who we ALL thought were good MLS players, turn into a shambles in one off season? The ONLY factor that changed was that Winter was the head coach.


Under Preki our defenders had one job. Put your foot through the ball. Force a limited player to play a more complex and more demanding system, and those players start making more mistakes. Take away the defensive block in the midfield and those players are more exposed. Play 3 in the middle and a high line that is slow and unsettled, don't pressure the opposition in the midfield and watch what happens.

Also key to remember, under Preki Frei had a stand out year and saved us more often that not. We led the league in shots against by a decent margin under Preki (from what I recall), which is never the hallmark of a good defence.

brad
04-16-2012, 09:33 AM
All good points, but you don't have to wait 5-10 years to get a bench player from the youth system in. Only takes a couple years to groom an 18 year old who then gets groomed as a bench/reserve player to move to the first team.

I'll have to disagree with you on this, but I hope you are right. We will see next year if this is true. That's two years for the Academy in its current incarnation - so if this theroy holds we should have a whole bunch of better than standard MLS players ready to go next year.

Jack
04-16-2012, 09:40 AM
I have a few considerations:

1) For those of you criticizing Winter for his selection of Dunfield and Harden, who would you have him play in their places? Henry and Stinson were at the Olympic Qualifiers, Frings got hurt, JDG has been lacklustre, Cann was hurt, Aceval has been underwhelming. Who slots into those two places in the lineup under the above-mentioned circumstances? I've seen bitching about it, but no viable options.

2) His record is shocking if looked at from the start of last season, but what is it from the middle of last season, when he finally got his pieces in place? Given the start this year, it still isn't all that great, but there were some pretty decent moments in the 2nd half of last season.

3) What happens if we fire him now? What are our other options? Now that his first team options are back in terms of defence, I think it's fair to give him another half a dozen games to see if things shore up.

If things are still a disaster after 4 or 5 more games, then we'll know there's no option but for him to step aside.

Oldtimer
04-16-2012, 09:44 AM
If you want to blame winter for anything, it has to be Player management.

One example of this is playing Plata as a starter. The guy is clearly a super sub who should be brought in once the defense is tired.

I really don't think this is the difference maker. Few mls coaches are tactical geniuses, otherwise they would be coaching in Europe. You only have to be as smart as 50% of MLS coaches to make the playoffs, which having seen enough MLS matches, is a pretty low barrier. Most MLS coaches aren't that great, there are only a couple who deserve any special mention.

The key in any salary-capped league is the player-acquisitions. Management failed in that before the season ever started. TFC only needed a few pieces, especially in central defense to become a decent club. Currently I would give a "zero" rating on bringing in decent defenders.

A few pieces makes the difference between MLS champs and bottom feeders.

Oldtimer
04-16-2012, 09:57 AM
3) What happens if we fire him now? What are our other options?

We have options. There is available a Dutch MLS-Cup-winning coach who knows how to correctly use the 4-3-3 in an MLS context to be a winner. He has an excellent resume, including turning around a losing national team. He knows the young US player pool deeply. Best of all, he won't be hard to sign or cost the club anything because Thomas Rongen is already working for TFC, running the academy.

jloome
04-16-2012, 09:58 AM
This whole thread says more about this board than about our team. For the last half of last season and the CCL run at the beginning of this one, many of these people seemed to disappear. Now the team is on a bad run, and It's LIKE OLD HOME DAY AROUND HERE.

It seems like some people would rather the team lose under Winter for the sole purpose of maintaining their fragile, ultra-competitive egos. But let's look at a few facts here:

* As oldtimer noted, without one of their clutch players, LA is shit. Not TFC shit, but we've jot JDG (signed by MO, not the current guys) and not Donovan or Beckham.

* John Spencer is generally regarded as a talented coach and a big part of why Houston won two titles under Kinnear, and his Portland team has lost four in a row. Is he suddenly shit, too? His DP striker is scoring goals and they're still losing.

* Frank Yallop has been awful for four straight years in San Jose. This year, he has the pieces together. Was he shit then but isn't shit now? How does that work exactly?

* In three of the five losses we outchanced the other team. That has NEVER happened with any of our past crappy teams, all of which were crappier than this one, regardless of the record poor start.

Look, people need time to hang themselves. Mo got five years and was shit the whooooole time.

Is Winter's team shit? Looked pretty good against LA, and in the first Santos game. So, apparently not all the time.

For the first time, TFC isn't dreadful to watch. Lord, It's not good. But it's not dreadful. So having a system does have some payoff. We also have youth coming up and actually being used (although too much in Morgan's case).

Conflating this start into complete ineptitude is just argumentatively ignoring the facts. We're not as good as we should be, but we don't deserve to be 0-5, either. We've outchanced three of the five teams we've lost to.

We have serious issues. Our passing the other day clocked in at 69% and so we only had 43% of the ball, despite creating the better chances. Our centre midfield is very weak, especially without frings.

On the other hand, Cann looked good, commanding even. He made Aceval look a little better (although he still had four major gaffes, by my count, and shouldn't be starting.)

We may have an 0-5 start, but the facts don't suggest we have an 0-5 team, or a coach who deserves only 18 months to turn around Mo's five-year mess. He at least should get the season.

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 10:24 AM
I'll have to disagree with you on this, but I hope you are right. We will see next year if this is true. That's two years for the Academy in its current incarnation - so if this theroy holds we should have a whole bunch of better than standard MLS players ready to go next year.

I don't think you'll see a whole bunch. I would expect 1 or 2 per year though.

This year we've already seen Roberts graduate - albeit because of an emergency, but he is the official backup for us. So there's a good chance we'll see him play at least a cople times this year.

You could argue that if Vukovic gets first team move with the impact, he could be considered a graduate of the academy, not for TFC, but he is a graduate.

I would like to see another graduate to the first team by the end of this year, but it could be asking much.

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 10:38 AM
I really don't think this is the difference maker. Few mls coaches are tactical geniuses, otherwise they would be coaching in Europe. You only have to be as smart as 50% of MLS coaches to make the playoffs, which having seen enough MLS matches, is a pretty low barrier. Most MLS coaches aren't that great, there are only a couple who deserve any special mention.

The key in any salary-capped league is the player-acquisitions. Management failed in that before the season ever started. TFC only needed a few pieces, especially in central defense to become a decent club. Currently I would give a "zero" rating on bringing in decent defenders.

A few pieces makes the difference between MLS champs and bottom feeders.


Uh - Actually player management is a huge part of what being a manager is. Anyone who follows TFC should know Winter has next to 0 tactical expertise and that DeClerk is the guy running that part of the show. So if he isn't tactical and he isn't managing the players (playing time, egos, etc) What exactly do you think he is doing?

Also - didn't both DeClerk and Winter say that they were putting all their faith in Decoy and Cann on the CB front?

I love that people on the board think it's just that easy to strut into a foreign league and just grab the best CB from a team as if they were shopping at Walmart. If it were that easy, do you think every MLS team would do that? Why hasn't LA done that with the loss of Omar Gonzalez?

Jack
04-16-2012, 10:47 AM
We have options. There is available a Dutch MLS-Cup-winning coach who knows how to correctly use the 4-3-3 in an MLS context to be a winner. He has an excellent resume, including turning around a losing national team. He knows the young US player pool deeply. Best of all, he won't be hard to sign or cost the club anything because Thomas Rongen is already working for TFC, running the academy.
He won the MLS Cup in 1999. Compared to what this league is now, that's like winning the RPB Soccer Tournament in Niagara.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 10:55 AM
He won the MLS Cup in 1999. Compared to what this league is now, that's like winning the RPB Soccer Tournament in Niagara.

Have to agree. Wasn't he coaching American Samoa when we poached him? People are questioning Winters pedegree coming from Ajax lol.

Have to agree completely with you on your other post as well Jack. No point in replacing him now. It just waives a white flag on this season. However if Frings comes back and the team is still shit after 5 or 6 games? The white flag may already be waiving.

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 11:03 AM
We have options. There is available a Dutch MLS-Cup-winning coach who knows how to correctly use the 4-3-3 in an MLS context to be a winner. He has an excellent resume, including turning around a losing national team. He knows the young US player pool deeply. Best of all, he won't be hard to sign or cost the club anything because Thomas Rongen is already working for TFC, running the academy.

And his past 3 stints have been with American Somoa?? (Ranked lower than Canada)
US-u20 (got fired)
Chivas (missed the playoffs)

Sure he's got some credentials from an Era of US soccer that is now considered "outdated" and "irrelevant"
I'd say his '07 and '09 U-20 wins are the most relevant to what football in the US is all about now.

With that being said, is bringing in someone to coach a senior team who's only really had success with youth teams the best solution?

trane
04-16-2012, 11:05 AM
I agree that winter shuold not be fired now, and that the team is not playing that poorly. But we are making the same old mistakes defensing and the results could not be any worse. I do not think you fire him now, BUT an active management team, has to start realizing that the time may be approaching, and that they need to have a plan be, if as Jack says, 4-5 games down the road, when we have 2 points, out of 30, we can make a change.

Walms
04-16-2012, 11:05 AM
Winter came here to build a team from the ground up.... Redesinge the entire Acadamy..... And implement a new way TFC plays football....

It's been under a year and a half since he came to Toronto and we have seen a compleatly new team, sined 4 Acadamy kids, and made the CCL semi finals

I think winter is doing a dam fine job!!!

Give him the 2 years he aske for, let him build a team and by this time next season we will be unstoppable!!

ginkster88
04-16-2012, 11:06 AM
Should be a "don't care" option to truly capture the apathy of the supporters.

trane
04-16-2012, 11:09 AM
Winter came here to build a team from the ground up.... Redesinge the entire Acadamy..... And implement a new way TFC plays football....

It's been under a year and a half since he came to Toronto and we have seen a compleatly new team, sined 4 Acadamy kids, and made the CCL semi finals

I think winter is doing a dam fine job!!!

Give him the 2 years he aske for, let him build a team and by this time next season we will be unstoppable!!


Lets not give him 2 years, that is not enough. 5 I say. Everyone knows it takes five years to build a winner. Our mistake that we fired Mo to early, and did not give him the full five years.

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 11:09 AM
If things are still a disaster after 4 or 5 more games, then we'll know there's no option but for him to step aside.


And our season would be done and it won't even be the halfway mark.

Nobody sees a problem with this?

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 11:11 AM
Lets not give him 2 years, that is not enough. 5 I say. Everyone knows it takes five years to build a winner. Our mistake that we fired Mo to early, and did not give him the full five years.

I do enjoy seeing Winter get credit for the Academy kids that were here before he arrived and that he did not want to use at all but was obliged to do so because he couldn't fill the roster. If you want to give anyone credit for bringing up the academy kids, you should be praising Mariner, not Winter.

That's like me winning the lottery and crediting it to my fantastic math skills that I picked the right numbers.

TFC...the only place where MLS parity doesn't exist and 5 year plans are all the rage!

trane
04-16-2012, 11:13 AM
^ There is not skill in winning the lottery?

trane
04-16-2012, 11:16 AM
And our season would be done and it won't even be the halfway mark.

Nobody sees a problem with this?


That is the gamble. The earlier you fire him, the better chance for the next manager to turn it around. However, my thinking is that he has already blown 25 points, and he is in the best position to turn shit around(at least in theory). BUT if you do fire him, you would have been better off hiring him now.

Jack
04-16-2012, 11:17 AM
And our season would be done and it won't even be the halfway mark.

Nobody sees a problem with this?
If we fire him now and bring a new guy in tomorrow, do we suddenly become a winning football team? Or do we get our defense (which has been a disaster) together now that our main players are back and healthy. Do we get Koev in better shape and scoring, which he came very close to doing twice on Saturday? I dunno, man. Winter hasn't been phenomenal by any stretch, but at the same time, I just don't see what changing him now is going to fix. It seems more like doing something for the sake of doing something.

Nobody sees a problem with that? g:D

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 11:21 AM
And our season would be done and it won't even be the halfway mark.

Nobody sees a problem with this?

Do you think a manager can come in right now and turn things around in 4-5 games? Seriously consider what you are saying before answering:

- New manager will need to evaluate what we have (at least 2 games) then see where changes need to take place
- Players may need to change their style of play (not going to happen after 4-5 games)

those two factors alone say to me that 4-5 games isn't a game changer right now as to whether or not we fire Winter and turn this team around before it's too late.

That Toronto mentality of "do it now or else it's too late" doesn't work. If we are saying this, then it's already too late and we should consider the season to be done and over with. Stop watching the games, sell your tickets to any sucker who'll buy them because there is no point in having faith anymore until someone new comes in.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 11:22 AM
And his past 3 stints have been with American Somoa?? (Ranked lower than Canada)
US-u20 (got fired)
Chivas (missed the playoffs)

Sure he's got some credentials from an Era of US soccer that is now considered "outdated" and "irrelevant"
I'd say his '07 and '09 U-20 wins are the most relevant to what football in the US is all about now.

With that being said, is bringing in someone to coach a senior team who's only really had success with youth teams the best solution?

Uhhhhhhhh.... haha

1.5 years isn't really long enough to evaluate a manager, but this is pro sports and if we start the season 1-7-2 or something, and the sea of red seats in BMO continues to grow, you can be damn sure MLSE will make a move. They are in the business of making money. Like Ensco said in another thread, they DO try to win. They're just bad at it. Winning is good for business. Losing is bad. And for TFC, if it's near the bottom of the table at the end of this season it could be crippling for the future of the franchise. They'll do everything in their power to try and make sure that doesn't happen. Hopefully a few good showings in the next month turns everything around and we can look back and laugh at how we questioned Winter

Jack
04-16-2012, 11:24 AM
And Roogsy, I share your frustration. I want something to happen. I want to smash something. I watch this team play football and lose and I get a sick feeling in my stomach. The Montreal game was beyond it for me, I had to leave the room and turn it off. The Chivas game didn't feel the same. It was frustrating as hell, but man, their keeper came up huge, but I didn't feel quite so gutted after that game. I felt like there was a light at the end of the sewage pipe.

I'm not optimistic, but at this point, I think firing Winter is raising the white flag on this season.

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 11:39 AM
With that being said, is bringing in someone to coach a senior team who's only really had success with youth teams the best solution?


Uhhhhhhhh.... haha

Never said I agreed with it to begin with, but now that we are here and are clearly in the mindset that we should create our own proven senior team manager, Do we start the process again?



1.5 years isn't really long enough to evaluate a manager, but this is pro sports and if we start the season 1-7-2 or something, and the sea of red seats in BMO continues to grow, you can be damn sure MLSE will make a move. They are in the business of making money. Like Ensco said in another thread, they DO try to win. They're just bad at it. Winning is good for business. Losing is bad. And for TFC, if it's near the bottom of the table at the end of this season it could be crippling for the future of the franchise. They'll do everything in their power to try and make sure that doesn't happen. Hopefully a few good showings in the next month turns everything around and we can look back and laugh at how we questioned Winter

Empty seats at BMO are not as bad as people think. Remember, most of those empty seats are already paid for.
But seriously, TFC have never been winners and they still make money to this day.

in 2011 Columbus crew lost 13 games and still got into the playoffs. The redBulls only won 10 and got in.
1-7-2 unfortunately doesn't take us out of the playoff picture, just makes it harder to get there.

I[m not good with the maths but can someone figure out what 48 points is equal to (w-l-t)? That'll get us into the playoffs.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 11:44 AM
Never said I agreed with it to begin with, but now that we are here and are clearly in the mindset that we should create our own proven senior team manager, Do we start the process again?



Empty seats at BMO are not as bad as people think. Remember, most of those empty seats are already paid for.
But seriously, TFC have never been winners and they still make money to this day.

in 2011 Columbus crew lost 13 games and still got into the playoffs. The redBulls only won 10 and got in.
1-7-2 unfortunately doesn't take us out of the playoff picture, just makes it harder to get there.

I[m not good with the maths but can someone figure out what 48 points is equal to (w-l-t)? That'll get us into the playoffs.

The empty seats are paid for for this season, but MLSE would have to be SHITTING themselves at the thought of next.

Uh, well, 13 wins and 9 draws would get us there. Or 12/12, 11/15 etc. Realistically, of our 29 remaining games we need to be winning 1 in 3 games or so and drawing 1 in 3 as well. So we can lose outright once in every 3 games or so. Well. I immediately regret doing that math.

(and agree with you on winter, just found that line funny)

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 11:47 AM
If we fire him now and bring a new guy in tomorrow, do we suddenly become a winning football team? Or do we get our defense (which has been a disaster) together now that our main players are back and healthy. Do we get Koev in better shape and scoring, which he came very close to doing twice on Saturday? I dunno, man. Winter hasn't been phenomenal by any stretch, but at the same time, I just don't see what changing him now is going to fix. It seems more like doing something for the sake of doing something.

Nobody sees a problem with that? g:D

My preference is that he be gone now, but I don't mind giving him 5 more games to see if we can get back on track. My problem is more with the seemingly apathetic response to people willing to write off this year. What I wish I saw was "If he is not back on track in 5 games I want him gone!". Instead, it's more of a "meh...he will be gone anyways" kind of reaction that gets me.

It's inline with my biggest pet peeve of Toronto fans...the apparent lack of demands for performance. We only demand it after the fact, when our seasons are written off instead of fighting for it during the season.

Winter should be getting a message NOW that results have to come immediately. Is he getting any pressure from fans? Maybe 1 or 2 Roogsy types here and there but for the most part you get these poll results where people are like "Hey! I don't have confidence this guy can lead us anywhere and I will ignore his record and his results and keep supporting him because he's the guy that happens to be standing in the spot of the person I am supposed to be cheering on and I don't want to look for a new guy!" And MLSE needs to start NOW to figure out if this thing goes further south, that they are prepared with a plan in place to not only stop the bleeding at this friggin' club but to really, truly get it on track.

Supporters are supposed to demand the best of their club. We don't. We shrug our shoulders and leave it in the hands of the suits. We should be demanding that MLSE expect performance from it's managers and if not that they be scouring the planet for the next Schmidt, Arena, Mourinho, Ferguson whoever!!! Instead our reaction is "better the devil you know!". Please...shoot me in the head.

I will tell you what is going to happen Jack. The same bullshit that happened to bring in Winter. If we fail to make playoffs again, Winter will be gone at the end of the season. It will take a month for MLSE, who happens to be in the middle of a shakeup/sale to figure out their little piece of shit soccer team that generates peanuts for them only really has 3 months of off-season and needs someone to hire a new manager ASAP. They will hire "consultants" again, talk to the league and then rush to hire a new manager who will be appointed sometime in early January....again giving rope to those who will be buying into "you need a gazillion months to get your team together and he only came in January!" and we will be back in the vicious circle of failing to do our due diligence, failing to get the best (which was promised to us) and then hoping we got lucky. In the meantime, we'd be heading into year 7, (SEVEN!) of no playoffs and quite frankly, in danger this year of not winning the NCC, meaning no CCL. I doubt mother nature will be doing us any favours this year in the NCC. That sounds like a "once in a lifetime" kind of thing she did for us.

Think I am wrong? Jack...they fired Mo and Preki in September. SEPTEMBER!!! They didn't make a decision to hire Klinnsman until what...November? December? And Winter was hired in January??? THAT'S FOUR MONTHS!!! FOUR MONTHS TO GET US A GUY WHO HAS A COMBINED 6 WINS IN 39 LEAGUE GAMES!!! 15 WINS in 55 GAMES IN ALL COMPETITIONS! ARGH!!! :banghead:

To get back in the playoff hunt, we now have to win 12 of the next 29 games. Essentially doubling our best win production ratio despite the fact that this best winning ratio with Winter includes 2 wins against FC Edmonton, 2 vs Real Esteli and 1 vs Tauro FC. Do you see it happening?

:rant:

Pookie
04-16-2012, 11:57 AM
I won't repost the full text of my blog here but I'm coming to the conclusion that Winter is the right man for a long term turnaround but short term...? (link: http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012/04/16/tfc_toronto_fc_aron_winter_mls/ )

Short term, when you rely on players coming from the MLS' quota system and TFC-Academy which as of today, is mostly filled with hardworking kids that were unfortunate to have the Ontario Soccer Association overseeing their technical development. For a system that relies on technical skill, it seems like a long shot to think that our current roster players (and limited movement on international recruiting) can bring that level to where it needs to be.

I can't recall who said it last year but there was a question regarding the 4-3-3 and whether it made sense to implement it now or work on it behind the scenes over a longer term and gradually change the style of play. It was dismissed at the time, by folks including myself, but now that you look at the results and the reality of the situation and whoever said it might have been on to something.

Perhaps what is needed is for Winter to oversee everything but the first team.

Or conversely, employ "Total Football" in the Academy but adopt a different style of play for the short term. Sort of like playing a man down. It's not ideal but you adjust to the situation you have and give yourself the best chance for a result. Gradually, he can begin to introduce it to the first team.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 11:58 AM
The other problem with any serious changes right now- until the ownership transaction is completed, there really is no owner. If you're Mariner (or Anselmi, whoever would be making the decision on Winter), do you make a decision and bring in a new person before the new owners take over? That seems like it'd require more balls than MLSE execs tend to possess.

Jack
04-16-2012, 11:59 AM
@Roogsy

I don't disagree with anything you say. I also think that they should be putting pressure on Winter and, if he doesn't turn this thing around in the next five games, he should be fired. I don't think they know their asses from a hole in the ground, so we're just going to get more of the same incompetence. The problems at this organization go beyond Winter. He's more of a symptom and yes, it's enough to make me tear my hair out.

Or stop caring.

tfcleeds
04-16-2012, 12:01 PM
Firing Winter now does nothing - give him at least until the end of the season. As if our club wasn't enough of a revolving door already for players, managers, etc. Now if it is decided that Winter must eventually get the sack, the only acceptable option will be to bring in someone with successful MLS experience. A Sigi Schmidt. A Jason Kreis. Somebody of that nature. Enough of TFC being a testing ground for unproven managers in this league.

Beach_Red
04-16-2012, 12:16 PM
Roogsy, here's what's going to happen: Frings comes back and the team wins a few games against other non-playoff teams, starting this week with Chicago (maybe a couple of very emotional wins against top teams). They'll get into contention and flirt with a playoff spot right down to the end of the season and Winter will stay on for next season - the last one on his contract. If the team is in a playoff position halfway through next season he'll get an extension but if they aren't he'll get fired in September and Danny Dichio will take over.

It will all be geared around season ticket renewals and selling hope for next season - it's always about next season.

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 12:19 PM
Firing Winter now does nothing - give him at least until the end of the season. As if our club wasn't enough of a revolving door already for players, managers, etc. Now if it is decided that Winter must eventually get the sack, the only acceptable option will be to bring in someone with successful MLS experience. A Sigi Schmidt. A Jason Kreis. Somebody of that nature. Enough of TFC being a testing ground for unproven managers in this league.

Funny you mention "unprovem managers" and "Jason Kreis" in the same sentence.
Funny because he was unproven manager who didn't make the playoffs in his first year, qualified in his second (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Real_Salt_Lake_season) (1-3-1 to start the season) then only after his third year did he win the MLS cup.

I agree with you, give him to the end of the season and have someone lined up if we don't make the playoffs who can step in and continue where he left off instead of rebuilding.

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 12:21 PM
I can't recall who said it last year but there was a question regarding the 4-3-3 and whether it made sense to implement it now or work on it behind the scenes over a longer term and gradually change the style of play. It was dismissed at the time, by folks including myself, but now that you look at the results and the reality of the situation and whoever said it might have been on to something.


:lol:

I don't know if you were referring to me bro, but I was definitely saying that last year.





A prophet in his own land... ;)

DangerRed
04-16-2012, 12:23 PM
Gives me a chuckle how people around here say that 18 months isn't enough to evaluate a manager and that he should be given more time, maybe even YEARS more. Chelsea FC, and scores of other clubs around the world every year, would beg to differ. It's like the supporters of TFC think this club is somehow different, special and unique, and that the facts don't apply. Here are a few of them, speaking of facts: 1) this is still a results based business, regardless of whether your shirt is red, blue, orange or whatever. 2) it's possible for a different manager to get different results from the same group of players (see Roberto Di Mateo vs Andre Villas-Boas).

Under Winter, we have 14 wins from 45 games. We haven't scored a goal at home in 180 minutes now, the lowest run of home goalscoring form since we entered the league 2007.

http://mindlesscomfort.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/are-you-not-entertained.jpg?w=500

Jack
04-16-2012, 12:25 PM
Ok Danger, you make a good point. Who comes in and turns this around?

tfcleeds
04-16-2012, 12:26 PM
Funny you mention "unprovem managers" and "Jason Kreis" in the same sentence.Funny because he was unproven manager who didn't make the playoffs in his first year, qualified in his second (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Real_Salt_Lake_season) (1-3-1 to start the season) then only after his third year did he win the MLS cup.I agree with you, give him to the end of the season and have someone lined up if we don't make the playoffs who can step in and continue where he left off instead of rebuilding.He (Kreis) is arguably proven now though, which is what I meant ;) The problem with TFC's approach to hiring has been that they insist on hiring people who mostly had no prior MLS experience. In Kreis case, at least he had played his whole career in the league and despite being untested as a manager at least had a better idea of how things worked over here.

Oldtimer
04-16-2012, 12:28 PM
his thread is following the track of all similar threads.

75% of the people want Winter to stay, that's a very strong majority.

Then 99% of the following posts are by a minority of the 25% who want him gone. :facepalm:

Canary10
04-16-2012, 12:30 PM
Gives me a chuckle how people around here say that 18 months isn't enough to evaluate a manager and that he should be given more time, maybe even YEARS more. Chelsea FC, and scores of other clubs around the world every year, would beg to differ. It's like the supporters of TFC think this club is somehow different, special and unique, and that the facts don't apply. Here are a few of them, speaking of facts: 1) this is still a results based business, regardless of whether your shirt is red, blue, orange or whatever. 2) it's possible for a different manager to get different results from the same group of players (see Roberto Di Mateo vs Andre Villas-Boas).

Under Winter, we have 14 wins from 45 games. We haven't scored a goal at home in 180 minutes now, the lowest run of home goalscoring form since we entered the league 2007.

http://mindlesscomfort.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/are-you-not-entertained.jpg?w=500

It's also possible to get the same or even worse results with a new manager. We could be the Wolves i.e drop Mick McCarthy for Terry Connor and be ten points out of the drop zone. Think they'd do the same again if they could do it over? The fact that you think we'd be the Chelsea and not the Wolves suggests to me you have way more faith in this team than you let on!

ensco
04-16-2012, 12:31 PM
^OT I think there is a pretty substantial number of people who have concluded, or are damn close to concluding, that he should be gone, but don't want to make the change now, as (i) there is a chance they will turn it around, and (ii) the revolving door is a huge issue around here, we cannot attract good talent in the long run if that doesn't stop.

jabbronies
04-16-2012, 12:31 PM
Gives me a chuckle how people around here say that 18 months isn't enough to evaluate a manager and that he should be given more time, maybe even YEARS more. Chelsea FC, and scores of other clubs around the world every year, would beg to differ. It's like the supporters of TFC think this club is somehow different, special and unique, and that the facts don't apply. Here are a few of them, speaking of facts: 1) this is still a results based business, regardless of whether your shirt is red, blue, orange or whatever. 2) it's possible for a different manager to get different results from the same group of players (see Roberto Di Mateo vs Andre Villas-Boas).

Under Winter, we have 14 wins from 45 games. We haven't scored a goal at home in 180 minutes now, the lowest run of home goalscoring form since we entered the league 2007.

http://mindlesscomfort.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/are-you-not-entertained.jpg?w=500

HHAHAHAHAHA Chelsea FC. Good one. How many managers since Mourihno left.....5? That's about the same as TFC in the same amount of time. What has that done for them? What's the point of bringing up what other teams in Europe do? It's just as easy to spin it the other way and say look at teams that keep their managers in thick and thin. Arsen Wenger?

Richard
04-16-2012, 12:32 PM
He (Kreis) is arguably proven now though, which is what I meant ;) The problem with TFC's approach to hiring has been that they insist on hiring people who mostly had no prior MLS experience. In Kreis case, at least he had played his whole career in the league and despite being untested as a manager at least had a better idea of how things worked over here.

Thats why we have Mariner teaching the MLS system to Winter and De klerk.

Oldtimer
04-16-2012, 12:34 PM
^I think there is a pretty substantial number of people who have concluded, or are damn close to concluding, that he should be gone, but don't want to make the change now, as (i) there is a chance they will turn it around, and (ii) the revolving door is a huge issue around here, we cannot attract good talent in the long run if that doesn't stop.

If that's true, it's interesting that none of them are posting in this thread. Most of the posts are by people who hated Winter since he came, and just waited for an opportunity and a thread to pile on.
They do not reflect most of the board IMO.

That's why people stay away from the board in times like this.

I'm in the process of forming an opinion, but I won't be expressing it until I see more of the season.

DangerRed
04-16-2012, 12:35 PM
Ok Danger, you make a good point. Who comes in and turns this around?

As I've said before, my solution is the same as what tfcleeds proposes: a manager with a large amount of MLS experience and a proven track record of making the playoffs (preferrably without DPs on the roster, just for good measure). Now, your response will likely be that of the 5-10 such names currently in existence, none would come to Toronto. To this I offer a simple response: people will move for money. Two of our three DPs have no prior connection to Canada of which I am aware. Nicholas Anelka (can you tell I love Chelsea yet?) is now playing/managing in Shanghai. All of this is because of money.

The train of thought then becomes rather simple: if MLSE is as ardent and eager to win as they say, they are also willing to spend. And if they're willing to spend, they should spend on an MLS-experienced coach who could take us into the playoffs. Aron Winter does not fit this description, and neither do his results. I'm sure he's a great guy and even perhaps tactically proficient, but his style is not suited for this league. He should go, and he should go now if you still want to talk about salvaging this season.

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 12:35 PM
Gives me a chuckle how people around here say that 18 months isn't enough to evaluate a manager and that he should be given more time, maybe even YEARS more. Chelsea FC, and scores of other clubs around the world every year, would beg to differ. It's like the supporters of TFC think this club is somehow different, special and unique, and that the facts don't apply. Here are a few of them, speaking of facts: 1) this is still a results based business, regardless of whether your shirt is red, blue, orange or whatever. 2) it's possible for a different manager to get different results from the same group of players (see Roberto Di Mateo vs Andre Villas-Boas).

Under Winter, we have 14 wins from 45 games. We haven't scored a goal at home in 180 minutes now, the lowest run of home goalscoring form since we entered the league 2007.

http://mindlesscomfort.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/are-you-not-entertained.jpg?w=500


:lol:

I love that gif.

I just want to run through the math though Danger, I think it's off.

2011

MLS - 6 wins in 34 games.
NCC - 3 wins in 4 games.
CCL Qualification - 2 wins in 2 games
CCL Group Stage - 3 wins in 6 games

2011 Total 14 wins in 46 games

2012

CCL Elimination - 1 win in 4 games
MLS - 0 wins in 5 games

2012 Total 1 win in 9 games

Total for both seasons, 15 wins in 55 games. Is that correct?

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 12:38 PM
^OT I think there is a pretty substantial number of people who have concluded, or are damn close to concluding, that he should be gone, but don't want to make the change now, as (i) there is a chance they will turn it around, and (ii) the revolving door is a huge issue around here, we cannot attract good talent in the long run if that doesn't stop.


Like I mentioned before...it's the whole "devil you know" issue that has slanted the poll. If the poll wasn't skewed against firing, but rather was asking whether you have confidence Winter will get us to the playoffs, or that Winter is the right man for the job, I'd be willing to bet a mortgage payment the number isn't anywhere near this poll's results.

It's pretty sad that the biggest vote of confidence is not in his abilities but in that we don't want yet another new manager and a new start. :thumbsup:

DangerRed
04-16-2012, 12:40 PM
It's also possible to get the same or even worse results with a new manager. We could be the Wolves i.e drop Mick McCarthy for Terry Connor and be ten points out of the drop zone. Think they'd do the same again if they could do it over? The fact that you think we'd be the Chelsea and not the Wolves suggests to me you have way more faith in this team than you let on!

Come on, you're brushing aside the point I'm making because you don't like the team I used as an example.


HHAHAHAHAHA Chelsea FC. Good one. How many managers since Mourihno left.....5? That's about the same as TFC in the same amount of time. What has that done for them? What's the point of bringing up what other teams in Europe do? It's just as easy to spin it the other way and say look at teams that keep their managers in thick and thin. Arsen Wenger?

Again, I think you're upset by the team I chose in making my argument, but I'll bite: this year, the sacking of the manager has left chelsea with a reasonable prospect of now finishing in fourth place in the EPL, playing in the semis of the Champions League and the FA Cup final, with not a single player changed since AVB's departure.


:lol:

I love that gif.

I just want to run through the math though Danger, I think it's off.

2011

MLS - 6 wins in 34 games.
NCC - 3 wins in 4 games.
CCL Qualification - 2 wins in 2 games
CCL Group Stage - 3 wins in 6 games

2011 Total 14 wins in 46 games

2012

CCL Elimination - 1 win in 4 games
MLS - 0 wins in 5 games

2012 Total 1 win in 9 games

Total for both seasons, 15 wins in 55 games. Is that correct?

Yes, sorry about that, that is correct. I should have stated that my stat reference pertained to 2011 only.

Winter's record over 2011-2012 is 15 wins in 55 games as far as I can tell.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 12:54 PM
:lol:

I love that gif.

I just want to run through the math though Danger, I think it's off.

2011

MLS - 6 wins in 34 games.
NCC - 3 wins in 4 games.
CCL Qualification - 2 wins in 2 games
CCL Group Stage - 3 wins in 6 games

2011 Total 14 wins in 46 games

2012

CCL Elimination - 1 win in 4 games
MLS - 0 wins in 5 games

2012 Total 1 win in 9 games

Total for both seasons, 15 wins in 55 games. Is that correct?

Well, if we figure 48 points to be good for a playoff birth, TFC would need to win about what, 38% of their games? 15 in 55 is 27.7%, but only 4 or so wins off that pace. That's not that bad actually. The problem is more who those wins came against. If you have the info open/off hand, which clubs have we beat outright? LAG, Dallas, Toro and Puma in CCL IIRC. NCC would be 2 wins over Edmonton and 1 over MTL I think. Who were the MLS wins? And the other CCL ones I'm missing?

Jack
04-16-2012, 12:54 PM
Danger, the only hole I see in your proposal is availability. Are any managers who meet your description available to step in now?

trane
04-16-2012, 12:56 PM
Ok Danger, you make a good point. Who comes in and turns this around?

Dwayne De Rosario.

Belfast_Boy
04-16-2012, 12:58 PM
his thread is following the track of all similar threads.

75% of the people want Winter to stay, that's a very strong majority.

Then 99% of the following posts are by a minority of the 25% who want him gone. :facepalm:

I voted for him to stay. I'll give him to the end of the season.
That being said, I still want other major changes. JDG has to go. They have to bring in a decent DP that will fit. I want the D fixed ASAP.

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 01:01 PM
Well, if we figure 48 points to be good for a playoff birth, TFC would need to win about what, 38% of their games? 15 in 55 is 27.7%, but only 4 or so wins off that pace. That's not that bad actually. The problem is more who those wins came against. If you have the info open/off hand, which clubs have we beat outright? LAG, Dallas, Toro and Puma in CCL IIRC. NCC would be 2 wins over Edmonton and 1 over MTL I think. Who were the MLS wins? And the other CCL ones I'm missing?

Going back to my trusty spreadsheet, I have us beating:

Portland on March 21, 2-0
Houston on May 9, 2-1
Vancouver on July 18, 1-0
RSL on September 5, 1-0
Columbus on September 26, 4-2
Colorado on October 3, 2-1

In NCC action, we beat:

FC Edmonton twice, 3-0, 1-0
Vancouver once, 2-1

According to Wiki, in CCL play, we beat:

Real Esteli twice, 2-1, 2-1
Tauro twice, 2-1, 1-0
Dallas once, 3-0
LA once, 2-1

We did not beat Pumas. You may be thinking of previous CCL wins.

Now, considering we probably need 12 wins in the next 29 league games, that's not a 38% winning ratio, that's over 41% vs our current ratio of 6 in 39 which would be a 15% winning percentage. And with each passing loss, that percentage increases to a point where we will probably surpass the need to win over 50% of our games just to get into the playoffs. That's where the poor start is really showing its damage.

Now, most of those wins will have to come from home. These are the up and coming home games. We probably need 10 of these 14 games to be wins. Which are these ten? I just don't see them. We play Chicago, DC and Philly twice. I think we can take 1 out of the 2 from each team, but win both meetings? A tall task. These are the games I think are shoo-ins.

Chicago - Winnable
DC
Philly - Winnable
New England - Winnable
New York
Vancouver
Colorado
Houston
Portland - Winnable
Kansas City
Chicago
Philly
DC - Winnable
Montreal - Winnable

If we do score a record like this and win only 6 of these, that means we have to go on the road and win 6 of 15 games away from home. Few teams in MLS do that, if at all.

I am telling you, it's an uphill battle.

trane
04-16-2012, 01:05 PM
I voted for him to stay. I'll give him to the end of the season.
That being said, I still want other major changes. JDG has to go. They have to bring in a decent DP that will fit. I want the D fixed ASAP.

I voted him to stay too, but with great reservations, and I would not give him the full season.

Waggy
04-16-2012, 01:12 PM
Going back to my trusty spreadsheet, I have us beating:

Portland on March 21, 2-0
Houston on May 9, 2-1
Vancouver on July 18, 1-0
RSL on September 5, 1-0
Columbus on September 26, 4-2
Colorado on October 3, 2-1

In NCC action, we beat:

FC Edmonton twice, 3-0, 1-0
Vancouver once, 2-1

According to Wiki, in CCL play, we beat:

Real Esteli twice, 2-1, 2-1
Tauro twice, 2-1, 1-0
Dallas once, 3-0
LA once, 2-1

We did not beat Pumas. You may be thinking of previous CCL wins.

Thanks! Well Real Estelli wasn't much competition if I remember those matches right, we could have won by far more. And 2 wins against the lowest level side we faced. Kind of tarnishes 4 of the wins for me. On the other hand some of those league wins were against pretty good clubs. I'm really on the fence with this club right now. The next 4 or 5 games are going to make my mind up for me, so we'll see. To echo what Jack said though, change for the sake of change is a terrible terrible mistake. If we have a chance to bring in someone who would seem to be a legit upgrade over Winter that's a different matter. But I'm just not sure such a person is out there for us at the moment. And even if they were, if we dump winter 55 games into his career (with ~20 of those coming with someone elses players), I can't imagine they'd be too excited at the prospect of being hired by us.

Fort York Redcoat
04-16-2012, 01:15 PM
I voted him to stay too, but with great reservations, and I would not give him the full season.

I see less in keeping him for longer if we don't think he can salvage the playoffs but then again I like to deal with full seasons.

Belfast_Boy
04-16-2012, 01:25 PM
I see less in keeping him for longer if we don't think he can salvage the playoffs but then again I like to deal with full seasons.

I said the rest of the season with the hope we can get into the playoffs. the only way that will happen is with major changes. i don't have any faith that the current squad can do it, even with Frings back.

trane
04-16-2012, 01:47 PM
^ My problem is that I had faith in the squad (CBs excluded) and hope in winter, but 0-5 will raise some questions.

Stouffville_RPB
04-16-2012, 02:13 PM
I voted for him to stay. I'll give him to the end of the season.
That being said, I still want other major changes. JDG has to go. They have to bring in a decent DP that will fit. I want the D fixed ASAP.

The thing that I don't think people are understanding is that Winter already knows what we are all saying.

- Winter knows that JDG's contract is a burden for what he brings. As a manager what do you want him to do at the moment? He can't come out and say JDG is playing like shit and his contract is killing our cap. How does anyone know that Winter didn't go to MLSE and say JDG needs to get bought out and FO said no he has another year and he's playing it out. Aside from sitting JDG to send a message (which he did this weekend) what do you want a manager to do?

- Winter knows we need to be stronger at the back. Do people think they brought a player like Torsten Frings here to play sweeper? Obviously he's more influential in the midfield but at the moment Frings was most needed at the back. Perhaps they are looking to bring in a CB from overseas but because the start of the MLS season being in the middle of most seasons that wasn't possible.

Winter has done a good job with this team so far. He's built the most talented squad we've ever had and improved players who didn't look like they were at the MLS level. The last game of the 2010 season TFC fielded Maksim Usanov, Raivis Hscanovics, Nick Garcia, Mista, Jacob Peterson, Joseph Nane, and Gabe Gala. None would have a shot at making the squad now. Instead Eckersley, Koevermans, Frings, Soolsma, Johnson, Lambe have been added, Plata and Silva drafted. Harden has improved from the player he was then to be a serviceable one now. Morgan has continued to grow into a very solid player. Winter is bringing in better players and improving others.

Things don't happen overnight and people. Winter is getting the job done even if it isn't as quick as people would like.

Boris
04-16-2012, 02:23 PM
The thing that I don't think people are understanding is that Winter already knows what we are all saying.

- Winter knows that JDG's contract is a burden for what he brings. As a manager what do you want him to do at the moment? He can't come out and say JDG is playing like shit and his contract is killing our cap. How does anyone know that Winter didn't go to MLSE and say JDG needs to get bought out and FO said no he has another year and he's playing it out. Aside from sitting JDG to send a message (which he did this weekend) what do you want a manager to do?

- Winter knows we need to be stronger at the back. Do people think they brought a player like Torsten Frings here to play sweeper? Obviously he's more influential in the midfield but at the moment Frings was most needed at the back. Perhaps they are looking to bring in a CB from overseas but because the start of the MLS season being in the middle of most seasons that wasn't possible.

Winter has done a good job with this team so far. He's built the most talented squad we've ever had and improved players who didn't look like they were at the MLS level. The last game of the 2010 season TFC fielded Maksim Usanov, Raivis Hscanovics, Nick Garcia, Mista, Jacob Peterson, Joseph Nane, and Gabe Gala. None would have a shot at making the squad now. Instead Eckersley, Koevermans, Frings, Soolsma, Johnson, Lambe have been added, Plata and Silva drafted. Harden has improved from the player he was then to be a serviceable one now. Morgan has continued to grow into a very solid player. Winter is bringing in better players and improving others.

Things don't happen overnight and people. Winter is getting the job done even if it isn't as quick as people would like.

couldnt have said it better myself. If we get rid of him then people will complain about how we dont have patience etc.
Long term, i think Winter knows what to do.

We have had an odd start to the season with key injuries to key players and a roster that wasnt well improved on from last season - having said that, peopel were pretty happy where we were by the end of the year and we concentrated on signing key players in key areas

MUFCandTFC
04-16-2012, 02:28 PM
i know its my first post. but i think he should stay for now cuz we have had so many managers. we need to stabalise the club and keep the manager for a long time. this will help long term.

brad
04-16-2012, 02:30 PM
We have had an odd start to the season with key injuries to key players and a roster that wasnt well improved on from last season - having said that, peopel were pretty happy where we were by the end of the year and we concentrated on signing key players in key areas

This is where my confidence is getting shaky in him. I was happy with the way we improved at the end of last season, and thought it was a good platform to move forward with. However, the off season moves have done little to bolster the team. The two attempts to bring in CB's have failed. Lambe is questionable at best. Burgos - still don't know. Silva looks to be a good deal, but that was from the draft which I look at differently.

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 02:42 PM
Winter knowing what needs to be done and being able to do it are two different things.

Hell, NASCARGUY knows what needs to be done, doesn't mean he should be managing the squad.

You guys are stating the obvious. Everyone and their grandmother knows TFC needs to shore up it's backline. Winter has known this for 15 months, has he done anything about it?

Soccer is a simple sport. Score more goals than you opponent and you win. You can do this by being good at scoring or by being good at keeping goals out...or both! So to state the obvious and say "Winter knows we need to allow fewer goals" or "Winter knows we need to start scoring goals" is nonsensical. The REAL issue here is whether he has the ability to solve those particular problems. And while I read a lot of "Winter knows" statements, I haven't seen a whole lot of "Winter has shown able to...." statements to prove he has what it takes.

ManUtd4ever
04-16-2012, 02:49 PM
The thing that I don't think people are understanding is that Winter already knows what we are all saying.

- Winter knows that JDG's contract is a burden for what he brings. As a manager what do you want him to do at the moment? He can't come out and say JDG is playing like shit and his contract is killing our cap. How does anyone know that Winter didn't go to MLSE and say JDG needs to get bought out and FO said no he has another year and he's playing it out. Aside from sitting JDG to send a message (which he did this weekend) what do you want a manager to do?

- Winter knows we need to be stronger at the back. Do people think they brought a player like Torsten Frings here to play sweeper? Obviously he's more influential in the midfield but at the moment Frings was most needed at the back. Perhaps they are looking to bring in a CB from overseas but because the start of the MLS season being in the middle of most seasons that wasn't possible.

Winter has done a good job with this team so far. He's built the most talented squad we've ever had and improved players who didn't look like they were at the MLS level. The last game of the 2010 season TFC fielded Maksim Usanov, Raivis Hscanovics, Nick Garcia, Mista, Jacob Peterson, Joseph Nane, and Gabe Gala. None would have a shot at making the squad now. Instead Eckersley, Koevermans, Frings, Soolsma, Johnson, Lambe have been added, Plata and Silva drafted. Harden has improved from the player he was then to be a serviceable one now. Morgan has continued to grow into a very solid player. Winter is bringing in better players and improving others.

Things don't happen overnight and people. Winter is getting the job done even if it isn't as quick as people would like.

I don't necessarily disagree, but at a certain point, the measure of progress has to translate into tangible success and results on the pitch.

I have advocated patience in the past with respect to the rebuild that was undertaken by the current management regime last season, but their current record of 0-5 including 3 consecutive shutouts on home soil is simply unacceptable, regardless of key injuries.

If the streak of futility continues for another few games, it might be time to consider alternatives such as promoting Thomas Rongen to the first team, as others have mentioned.

Abou Sky
04-16-2012, 03:12 PM
I really don't think this is the difference maker. Few mls coaches are tactical geniuses, otherwise they would be coaching in Europe. You only have to be as smart as 50% of MLS coaches to make the playoffs, which having seen enough MLS matches, is a pretty low barrier. Most MLS coaches aren't that great, there are only a couple who deserve any special mention.

The key in any salary-capped league is the player-acquisitions. Management failed in that before the season ever started. TFC only needed a few pieces, especially in central defense to become a decent club. Currently I would give a "zero" rating on bringing in decent defenders.

A few pieces makes the difference between MLS champs and bottom feeders.

Amazingly, every poster on this board IS a tactical genius...

jloome
04-16-2012, 03:24 PM
Amazingly, every poster on this board IS a tactical genius...

This gets my coffee spit-take laugh of the day.g:D

trane
04-16-2012, 03:25 PM
^ Well you do not have to be a tactical genius, to understand certain basics.

For example I was thinking about it just know. Winter, seemed to have used a 4-1-4-1 sorta/kind of, meaning 4 -1-2-3, with the wingers way back, to look like a 4-1-4-1, which on the surface is a good choice for a a team struggling at the back and to get points. BUT then when you look at the details, he plays Dunfield as the lone DM and in front of him a AM and Jonshon who is a SS/CF type player, and on the left flank another attacking player in Plata. So you chose a defensive formation but then you put in players who are not strong defenders. What is the point in that?

I want winter to succeed, but when I think of some of his decision they baffle me.

Oldtimer
04-16-2012, 03:32 PM
Amazingly, every poster on this board IS a tactical genius...

:rofl: a hahaha

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 03:34 PM
You don't have to be a tactical genius to know 0-5 is bad.

Or 15 wins in 55 games is bad.

Or that as the 3rd highest payroll in the league, occupying last place in the standings is bad.

But if it requires me to get my coaching license to understand the above, sign me up!

trane
04-16-2012, 03:36 PM
^ Roogsy, please get a coaching license or get a job as a sports writer/commentator , otherwise your opinions have no validity.

Jack
04-16-2012, 03:46 PM
Don't get testy, guys, it was a pretty funny comment.

Chewy Unikronik
04-16-2012, 03:48 PM
Right... because he was the one on the pitch, missing open chances.

Belfast_Boy
04-16-2012, 03:57 PM
The thing that I don't think people are understanding is that Winter already knows what we are all saying.

- Winter knows that JDG's contract is a burden for what he brings. As a manager what do you want him to do at the moment? He can't come out and say JDG is playing like shit and his contract is killing our cap. How does anyone know that Winter didn't go to MLSE and say JDG needs to get bought out and FO said no he has another year and he's playing it out. Aside from sitting JDG to send a message (which he did this weekend) what do you want a manager to do?

- Winter knows we need to be stronger at the back. Do people think they brought a player like Torsten Frings here to play sweeper? Obviously he's more influential in the midfield but at the moment Frings was most needed at the back. Perhaps they are looking to bring in a CB from overseas but because the start of the MLS season being in the middle of most seasons that wasn't possible.

Winter has done a good job with this team so far. He's built the most talented squad we've ever had and improved players who didn't look like they were at the MLS level. The last game of the 2010 season TFC fielded Maksim Usanov, Raivis Hscanovics, Nick Garcia, Mista, Jacob Peterson, Joseph Nane, and Gabe Gala. None would have a shot at making the squad now. Instead Eckersley, Koevermans, Frings, Soolsma, Johnson, Lambe have been added, Plata and Silva drafted. Harden has improved from the player he was then to be a serviceable one now. Morgan has continued to grow into a very solid player. Winter is bringing in better players and improving others.

Things don't happen overnight and people. Winter is getting the job done even if it isn't as quick as people would like.

my problem isn't really with Winter. that's why i'd give him more time. it's the rest of the organization that's fucked. JDG is a frigging abatross. he has to go.

Canary10
04-16-2012, 04:00 PM
Amazingly, every poster on this board IS a tactical genius...

I kill everyone in the Toronto Sport and Social Club soccer league both technically AND tactically. Those girls never stand a chance. Don't impugn my tactical knowledge!

brad
04-16-2012, 04:02 PM
I kill everyone in the Toronto Sport and Social Club soccer league both technically AND tactically. Those girls never stand a chance. Don't impugn my tactical knowledge!

I won the cup with TFC on FIFA 12, and haven't lost the league in over a decade of Football Manager/Championship Manger. Alright, sign me up.

PearceCFC
04-16-2012, 05:45 PM
I won the cup with TFC on FIFA 12, and haven't lost the league in over a decade of Football Manager/Championship Manger. Alright, sign me up.

I did the same, but I also won CCL in Football Manager. You may have some competition :D

los sonadores
04-16-2012, 05:57 PM
This whole thread says more about this board than about our team. For the last half of last season and the CCL run at the beginning of this one, many of these people seemed to disappear. Now the team is on a bad run, and It's LIKE OLD HOME DAY AROUND HERE.

It seems like some people would rather the team lose under Winter for the sole purpose of maintaining their fragile, ultra-competitive egos. But let's look at a few facts here:

* As oldtimer noted, without one of their clutch players, LA is shit. Not TFC shit, but we've jot JDG (signed by MO, not the current guys) and not Donovan or Beckham.

* John Spencer is generally regarded as a talented coach and a big part of why Houston won two titles under Kinnear, and his Portland team has lost four in a row. Is he suddenly shit, too? His DP striker is scoring goals and they're still losing.

* Frank Yallop has been awful for four straight years in San Jose. This year, he has the pieces together. Was he shit then but isn't shit now? How does that work exactly?

* In three of the five losses we outchanced the other team. That has NEVER happened with any of our past crappy teams, all of which were crappier than this one, regardless of the record poor start.

Look, people need time to hang themselves. Mo got five years and was shit the whooooole time.

Is Winter's team shit? Looked pretty good against LA, and in the first Santos game. So, apparently not all the time.

For the first time, TFC isn't dreadful to watch. Lord, It's not good. But it's not dreadful. So having a system does have some payoff. We also have youth coming up and actually being used (although too much in Morgan's case).

Conflating this start into complete ineptitude is just argumentatively ignoring the facts. We're not as good as we should be, but we don't deserve to be 0-5, either. We've outchanced three of the five teams we've lost to.

We have serious issues. Our passing the other day clocked in at 69% and so we only had 43% of the ball, despite creating the better chances. Our centre midfield is very weak, especially without frings.

On the other hand, Cann looked good, commanding even. He made Aceval look a little better (although he still had four major gaffes, by my count, and shouldn't be starting.)

We may have an 0-5 start, but the facts don't suggest we have an 0-5 team, or a coach who deserves only 18 months to turn around Mo's five-year mess. He at least should get the season.

I agree with most of this. Too many people love bitching and complaining on this board... it's an outlet for letting off steam from their unsatisfied lives I suppose, but man, it makes shitty and unreasonable reading.

Gallade
04-16-2012, 07:25 PM
i would finish dead last this season and next before I considered firing him. i don't think people understand how bad the turnover we've had so far is for this club - an identity is worth so much more for the next decade than wins are.

almost any dynasty team (not championship, but dynasty) i can see in North American salary cap sports has the pick your guy/pick your core team/ignore the failures/ignore the criticism/eventually, you win things model. dynasties are smart and stubborn. and i'll take a guy who's hopefully a few years ahead of the MLS curve (playing a 'hard' formation for MLS teams) over one who's a few years behind any day - if i wanted 2007/2008 thinking, I'd want Nicol running a team with no DPs. and i don't want to watch that team. i'll be glad to take the risk that Winter will end up in a pile of accolades by 2014.

Ajax TFC
04-16-2012, 07:27 PM
^ Well you do not have to be a tactical genius, to understand certain basics.

For example I was thinking about it just know. Winter, seemed to have used a 4-1-4-1 sorta/kind of, meaning 4 -1-2-3, with the wingers way back, to look like a 4-1-4-1, which on the surface is a good choice for a a team struggling at the back and to get points. BUT then when you look at the details, he plays Dunfield as the lone DM and in front of him a AM and Jonshon who is a SS/CF type player, and on the left flank another attacking player in Plata. So you chose a defensive formation but then you put in players who are not strong defenders. What is the point in that?

I want winter to succeed, but when I think of some of his decision they baffle me.
This is pretty close to how I feel about Winter and Co. He seems pretty good at finding players that can play his system, their training methods seem to work, he seems to get his tactics right a lot of the time, but in the end he fields the strangest choice of players. It's not just playing Dunfield and Harden in pretty much every game, it's fielding Johnson as a central midfielder, or Silva - who seems to be more of a second striker (a position not in the 4-3-3) or winger than a midfielder - and benching the likes of Avila and Burgos, who from what I've seen and heard is a forwardly thinking midfielder who can pressure and defend just as well.

SKB
04-16-2012, 07:43 PM
Boy this is tough but I think the comments I have read for the most part are well thought out. I have been an SSH from the beginning so I have seen just about every game. There is no doubt in the last 9 months TFC is playing much more attractive football. We had great run in the Champions League under Winter. He got rid of a lot of the garbage on the team in the last 6 months. I agreed with the majority of his decisions. He had the guts to bench DeGuzman the 2 million oops! We have so many injuries down the Centre with Frings, Caan, and Decoy. He knows we have to build the academy and has brought some of the young kids into the team which is good. But I have my concerns, he does not seem to be able to evaluate back line talent. The players they have brought in at Centre back have all been huge duds. However, who is responsible for that? Is that Winter or is that Mariner? He can get a little stubborn on his tactics from time to time. Is he a good motivator? We always seem to start so slowly and play better after giving up a goal. He knows the attacking game but does he know the defensive game? I believe he deserves some more time but I was very worried about his comments after the game on Saturday. Bad luck? There is no bad or good luck. You make your own luck by being well trained and taking advantage of opportunities. TFC is not showing the quality in the last 20 yards to win games. Also despite the notion we want to play the possession game most times we are below our opponents on possession %. I believe he deserves some more time and we have to see where we are at the end of the season. Also its fine to say he should be fired but who are you going to get to replace him?

narduch
04-16-2012, 08:15 PM
i would finish dead last this season and next before I considered firing him. i don't think people understand how bad the turnover we've had so far is for this club - an identity is worth so much more for the next decade than wins are.

almost any dynasty team (not championship, but dynasty) i can see in North American salary cap sports has the pick your guy/pick your core team/ignore the failures/ignore the criticism/eventually, you win things model. dynasties are smart and stubborn. and i'll take a guy who's hopefully a few years ahead of the MLS curve (playing a 'hard' formation for MLS teams) over one who's a few years behind any day - if i wanted 2007/2008 thinking, I'd want Nicol running a team with no DPs. and i don't want to watch that team. i'll be glad to take the risk that Winter will end up in a pile of accolades by 2014.

Based on MLSE's track record, there is simply no way Winter finishes dead last in the league and survives past this season. He would be gone before SSH renewals if the results were leading TFC to a last place finish.

The one thing I would like to know from the people who are still behind Winter is why? What do you see in TFC's results and play that give you belief?

I can sort of understand the people who say he deserves more time. I just fail to see what exactly he (and Mariner) are building. This team has had a pretty bad off-season in terms of player personnel moves. I don't think that gets talked about enough. It appears that the moves that were needed to improve on the late season form from 2011 weren't made.

Alonso
04-16-2012, 08:33 PM
If that's true, it's interesting that none of them are posting in this thread. Most of the posts are by people who hated Winter since he came, and just waited for an opportunity and a thread to pile on.
They do not reflect most of the board IMO.

That's why people stay away from the board in times like this.

I'm in the process of forming an opinion, but I won't be expressing it until I see more of the season.


This.


Avoid it like the plague.

Rene Kingsriver
04-16-2012, 08:33 PM
i would finish dead last this season and next before I considered firing him. i don't think people understand how bad the turnover we've had so far is for this club - an identity is worth so much more for the next decade than wins are.

almost any dynasty team (not championship, but dynasty) i can see in North American salary cap sports has the pick your guy/pick your core team/ignore the failures/ignore the criticism/eventually, you win things model. dynasties are smart and stubborn. and i'll take a guy who's hopefully a few years ahead of the MLS curve (playing a 'hard' formation for MLS teams) over one who's a few years behind any day - if i wanted 2007/2008 thinking, I'd want Nicol running a team with no DPs. and i don't want to watch that team. i'll be glad to take the risk that Winter will end up in a pile of accolades by 2014.

You may be willing to finish dead last for the next two seasons my friend, thankfully I think you're in a minority of one which would also be the eventual attendance at BMO if that happened

Abou Sky
04-16-2012, 08:37 PM
Re Why keep him:

He Is a good tactician.
4-3-3 can work in MLS
Off season not gettin rid of JDG I would bet was NOT him. So he has 1/5-1/6 of cap tied up there + DP slot.
He is molding 4-3-3 players out of the Academy that will know the system back and forth, watch Henry and Stinson this year.

He is the right man for the job, let him do it and prove you wrong.

Pookie
04-16-2012, 09:38 PM
If that's true, it's interesting that none of them are posting in this thread. Most of the posts are by people who hated Winter since he came, and just waited for an opportunity and a thread to pile on.
They do not reflect most of the board IMO.

That's why people stay away from the board in times like this.

I'm in the process of forming an opinion, but I won't be expressing it until I see more of the season.

I would agree with this also. Not much negativity directed his way after LA or the first Santos match. Seems as though picking ones spots are in vogue.

Sort of like all the DeRo updates we used to get on his goal scoring exploits. Now that he has 0 in 6, it's quiet. Until the next goal he scores of course. Timing is everything.

Chevy
04-16-2012, 09:43 PM
I would agree with this also. Not much negativity directed his way after LA or the first Santos match. Seems as though picking ones spots are in vogue.

Sort of like all the DeRo updates we used to get on his goal scoring exploits. Now that he has 0 in 6, it's quiet. Until the next goal he scores of course. Timing is everything.


Cue the hastily revised valuations of player worth based on non-goal-scoring variables and other intangible, non-quantifiable bits of misinformation. :)

brad
04-16-2012, 09:46 PM
This is pretty close to how I feel about Winter and Co. He seems pretty good at finding players that can play his system, their training methods seem to work, he seems to get his tactics right a lot of the time, but in the end he fields the strangest choice of players. It's not just playing Dunfield and Harden in pretty much every game, it's fielding Johnson as a central midfielder, or Silva - who seems to be more of a second striker (a position not in the 4-3-3) or winger than a midfielder - and benching the likes of Avila and Burgos, who from what I've seen and heard is a forwardly thinking midfielder who can pressure and defend just as well.

You know what's interesting about Harden? I was looking at MLS chalkboards earlier for matches this year, and overall - he has a really high pass completion rate. Like in the high 70's to high 80's (I think in one match only his pass completion rate was bad) - but after seeing that, I understand now why Winter has been selecting him.

narduch
04-16-2012, 09:50 PM
He Is a good tactician.


Is he really though? Repeating this ad nauseum doesn't make it true.

It often appears that he is being out-coached and out-prepared by other supposed lesser MLS coaches.


You know what's interesting about Harden? I was looking at MLS chalkboards earlier for matches this year, and overall - he has a really high pass completion rate. Like in the high 70's to high 80's (I think in one match only his pass completion rate was bad) - but after seeing that, I understand now why Winter has been selecting him.

Aren't most of his passes to his CB partner or our DM? Low risk passes?

Ajax TFC
04-16-2012, 09:54 PM
Based on MLSE's track record, there is simply no way Winter finishes dead last in the league and survives past this season. He would be gone before SSH renewals if the results were leading TFC to a last place finish.

The one thing I would like to know from the people who are still behind Winter is why? What do you see in TFC's results and play that give you belief?

I can sort of understand the people who say he deserves more time. I just fail to see what exactly he (and Mariner) are building. This team has had a pretty bad off-season in terms of player personnel moves. I don't think that gets talked about enough. It appears that the moves that were needed to improve on the late season form from 2011 weren't made.
not sure what track record you're thinking of. as of recently MLSE's had a record of giving managers several years too many after they've already proven to be incompetent (ex: JFJ, MoJo, Burke - who despite putting together a decent team, has proved incapable of hiring a capable coaching staff, yet his job isn't in any jeopardy)

narduch
04-16-2012, 09:59 PM
not sure what track record you're thinking of. as of recently MLSE's had a record of giving managers several years too many after they've already proven to be incompetent (ex: JFJ, MoJo, Burke - who despite putting together a decent team, has proved incapable of hiring a capable coaching staff, yet his job isn't in any jeopardy)

The Leafs are a different story. The ACC isn't half empty like BMO Field is these days, despite whatever number TFC FO wants to pull out of its ass. TFC is going to have a major SSH renewal problem if this isn't turned around quickly.

The one thing that might save Winter's ass is the fact that the sale of MLSE to Rogers/Bell won't happen until at least September.

brad
04-16-2012, 10:04 PM
Aren't most of his passes to his CB partner or our DM? Low risk passes?

Seems to be a mix:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/sites/all/modules/custom/mls_matchcenter/mls-gamematrix/index.php?omi=429887&seasonId=2012&competitionId=98&language=en&tag=1&reiter=g&efltblosd=JnBsYXllcnM9NDE2NjAmZmlsdGVycz0xLDI=

Actually - poking through the chalkboards - Harden seems to be backed by some pretty solid stats - with the exception of one key one. He seems to get tackled and lose possession quite frequently.

It does shed some light on why Winter keeps playing Harden though.

Keyman
04-16-2012, 10:04 PM
I blame Earl Cochrane. With him, we've accomplished absolutely nothing.

narduch
04-16-2012, 10:09 PM
I blame Earl Cochrane. With him, we've accomplished absolutely nothing.

Its a testament to the mess that TFC FO is that he still has a job.

How he survived the De Ro debacle is mind boggling.

Must be tight with Anselmi and Beirne.

Roogsy
04-16-2012, 10:15 PM
I would agree with this also. Not much negativity directed his way after LA or the first Santos match. Seems as though picking ones spots are in vogue.

Sort of like all the DeRo updates we used to get on his goal scoring exploits. Now that he has 0 in 6, it's quiet. Until the next goal he scores of course. Timing is everything.

It really is a shame how provocative you are. You're that guy in the bar fight who takes a cheap shot from the blind side and then runs behind his friends. Nobody has said boo about DeRo in this thread and here you are bringing him up. A person really has to wonder who here really has the hard-on for DeRo.

If you want, there are plenty of DeRo fans up here that can totally start a DeRo exploits thread. Including highlights of the two assists he has this year with his team, one of which was off a bicycle kick. Who has the most assists in Toronto? Our DP striker? Our AM playmakers? Our wingers?

Nope...it's the scapegoat Aceval with 1...count'em ONE, assist on the year.

I am guessing you haven't watched any DC United games this year, because if you did, you would already know DeRo has been their most dangerous player and doing that which you accused him he wasn't able to do, which is set up plays and let others score leading his team to a decent but not impressive 2-2-2 start and a positive goal differential. He just keeps proving you wrong. It must get tired being wrong so often. But he can't win can he? If he scores? All you do is call him selfish. If he sets up plays? All you do is mention how he is not scoring. I am not sure what you expect from a player of his calibre but it seems to me he is delivering and the DC fans would agree.

As for Winter, I made my viewpoints known after every game. I gave Winter credit for things I felt he deserved credit for, including beating LA and drawing Santos at home. And I wasn't negative on him for losing to Santos away. But an 0-5 league start, with 2 goals scored in 5 games and a minus 8 goal differential and more importantly increasingly lower probabilities of making the playoffs does not qualify as good enough reason to put his feet to the fire and start criticizing him? What does he have to do? Kill someone? I am sure you'd rationalize that away as well. If it were DeRo coaching this team to this record though...you'd be asking for the chair.

Chevy
04-16-2012, 10:18 PM
This whole thread says more about this board than about our team. For the last half of last season and the CCL run at the beginning of this one, many of these people seemed to disappear. Now the team is on a bad run, and It's LIKE OLD HOME DAY AROUND HERE.

It seems like some people would rather the team lose under Winter for the sole purpose of maintaining their fragile, ultra-competitive egos. But let's look at a few facts here:

* As oldtimer noted, without one of their clutch players, LA is shit. Not TFC shit, but we've jot JDG (signed by MO, not the current guys) and not Donovan or Beckham.

* John Spencer is generally regarded as a talented coach and a big part of why Houston won two titles under Kinnear, and his Portland team has lost four in a row. Is he suddenly shit, too? His DP striker is scoring goals and they're still losing.

* Frank Yallop has been awful for four straight years in San Jose. This year, he has the pieces together. Was he shit then but isn't shit now? How does that work exactly?

* In three of the five losses we outchanced the other team. That has NEVER happened with any of our past crappy teams, all of which were crappier than this one, regardless of the record poor start.

Look, people need time to hang themselves. Mo got five years and was shit the whooooole time.

Is Winter's team shit? Looked pretty good against LA, and in the first Santos game. So, apparently not all the time.

For the first time, TFC isn't dreadful to watch. Lord, It's not good. But it's not dreadful. So having a system does have some payoff. We also have youth coming up and actually being used (although too much in Morgan's case).

Conflating this start into complete ineptitude is just argumentatively ignoring the facts. We're not as good as we should be, but we don't deserve to be 0-5, either. We've outchanced three of the five teams we've lost to.

We have serious issues. Our passing the other day clocked in at 69% and so we only had 43% of the ball, despite creating the better chances. Our centre midfield is very weak, especially without frings.

On the other hand, Cann looked good, commanding even. He made Aceval look a little better (although he still had four major gaffes, by my count, and shouldn't be starting.)

We may have an 0-5 start, but the facts don't suggest we have an 0-5 team, or a coach who deserves only 18 months to turn around Mo's five-year mess. He at least should get the season.

Very well said. One of the few balanced and objective posts in this thread (mine included, for obvious reasons)

Waggy
04-16-2012, 10:28 PM
what have we seen from winter? Um, the TFC that played LA, Dallas and Santos was by FAR the best TFC we've ever seen. The trick is getting that consistently. But those performances were MILES ahead of the next best game we've ever played. I don't even know what it'd be. The Montreal Miracle was good, but it was also against the reserves/academy of a D2 team. We've also seen 5 games where we could NOT score, couldn't keep possession and looked to be out tactician-ed. Thus the debate about which is the real Winter (and real TFC), and the conclusion most people seem to have come to to which is seeing 4 or 5 more games before making any real judgements

And re Harden making safe passes, what sort of passes would you prefer a back to play? lol,

whyalwaysme11
04-16-2012, 11:21 PM
My wife, who couldn't care less about football gave me a bit of a pep-talk today. She said 'so what if TFC lose, you get to go to soccer games with your son who loves them and goes nuts for them'

And you know what, she is right. Everything after that is gravy for me.

I love soccer, I think the only 'bad' game I saw TFC play this season was in Montreal and teams have off games.

How electric was the SL game here? I thought the stadium was going to blow up when we scored. Those are the moments we live for.

Through thick and thin, Toronto Til I Die!

Oh, and yes, I AM a fucking cheerleader so go fuck yourselves if you actually think that is a bad thing or derogatory in ANY way, I will cheer in the rain, snow, scorching heat and wind-bitten cold.


good stuff sky.
although i dont think the winter thing should even be an issue right now its nice to see that the majority of people who voted want him to stay

rocker
04-16-2012, 11:33 PM
I'm in the "stick with Winter for the whole season" camp. We've had new coaches every single year and that kind of change doesn't help at all. I'd rather see Winter develop, even if it means growing pains, rather than start all over again with somebody new. The only guy who is available and knows the league is Steve Nicol, but he had some shitty seasons before getting fired -- not a slam dunk coach either (did he have problems in the "new MLS"?).

Honestly the play going forward is very good at times, much better than anything we saw in the Mo Johnston era (except for maybe when Ronnie O'Brien was hot and Dichio was on form). I mean it's night and day compared to the Preki year. Preki's players never looked like they could even get a chance on goal unless it was some ugly scramble. At least we're seeing glimpses of the beautiful game -- sometimes for long stretches. One team that's reaping the benefit of sticking with a guy who has a 'new' kind of plan for an MLS team is Kansas City. They brought in Peter Vermes a loooong time ago. The team sucked, and he had to fire the coach he hired -- and take over as head coach -- before years later they are very good. Kansas City didn't have this team's fan base or media attention, so he could pretty much work anonymously. I'm *hoping* that kind of patience will work with Winter.

ArmenJBX
04-16-2012, 11:38 PM
Even if Winter goes, we must keep in mind that we're a 4-3-3 teams. We have only enough players to play in a 4-3-3. We don't have the kind of midfielders for a 4-2-2 or a 4-1-2-1-2.

So, if Winter goes, we're playing the same game. Which means, the only reason Winter should leave is if the players have lost confidence in him, which they clearly have not. I can attest to this.

Winter's building this philosophy from ground up. We're gonna be playing this system for a long time, with Rongen applying it to over 20 different clubs in Ontario along with his academy. This city is a 4-3-3 city now, so regardless of who we get, this is how we're going to play.

Oldtimer
04-17-2012, 05:43 AM
Rohan Ricketts is in town... replace Winter and make him the new coach... :lol:

Pookie
04-17-2012, 06:16 AM
One of the things not mentioned yet about Winter is his contribution to retaining and recruiting players. Which isn't easy given the reputation surrounding this club.

Saying that, not every signing will be spectacular. But in the offseason, the culture he created here was good enough to convince Eckersley and Plata to resign. When is the last time we had players wanting to resign? Cann had a hold out and we haven't heard anything from him but that he is working hard to get back into the line up. A case of both sides moving past a difficult situation.

It is a refreshing change from all the outgoing crap that we have read over the years. Of course, not everyone might love what he has created but clearly, for those payers, Winter's reputation and their belief in what he is building were enough to keep them in what has been the MLS' worst franchise.

He helped recruit both Frings and Koevermans. Both players with options. Both have delivered. Frings has been Frings and when Winter has had to adjust his Backline (which apparently he is incapable of adjusting) Frings has jumped in with both feet. Koevermans hasn't had the start he wanted but that doesn't change the fact that he has 9 goals in 15 games. Clearly, both signings have delivered which is more than we can say for any of our DPs over our short history.

These are all overlooked aspects of team building which speak to Winter's ability to lead. I believe he is the guy for the long term. I'm not sure that a short term fix is something he can deliver given roster quotas and Canadian talent deficits. Definitely not worth throwing away.

19Barrett19
04-17-2012, 07:05 AM
wow! Typical Toronto fans.
Fire someone right now is the wrong move. I believe this team will win a lot of games and score a lot of goals. Gentalmen realize this harden is not in our starting 11 anymore that will make a big differance. Not only that Frings is going to play is the midfield wichita is a + as well. It's pretty clear that JDG is shit but plays a lot better with Frings beside him. Once JDG is gone we can bring in another piece to our squad. We have waited for a long time but in all honesty JDG belongs to Mo Jonston not winter and mariner I think if Rey had the choice he would be gone, ie benched last game! Besides when we win 3-0 against Chicago on sat everyone will jump On this band wagon again. I believe in this team and the recent struggles are bad luck, missing our best player, and harden. So relax and the wins will come and In bunches. Chill you impatiant Torontonias!

TOBOR !
04-17-2012, 07:12 AM
wow! Typical Toronto fans.Fire someone right now is the wrong move. I believe this team will win a lot of games and score a lot of goals. Gentalmen realize this harden is not in our starting 11 anymore that will make a big differance. Not only that Frings is going to play is the midfield wichita is a + as well. It's pretty clear that JDG is shit but plays a lot better with Frings beside him. Once JDG is gone we can bring in another piece to our squad. We have waited for a long time but in all honesty JDG belongs to Mo Jonston not winter and mariner I think if Rey had the choice he would be gone, ie benched last game! Besides when we win 3-0 against Chicago on sat everyone will jump On this band wagon again. I believe in this team and the recent struggles are bad luck, missing our best player, and harden. So relax and the wins will come and In bunches. Chill you impatiant Torontonias!^ my spam filters sent your post to my junk folder so I didn't see it. Sorry.

koryo
04-17-2012, 07:15 AM
Get rid of him.

He sold a vision of what he would achieve and hasn't delivered. The starting XI is largely his own now, so the team's abject start to this season falls squarely on his shoulders.

As to why it's failing I can only guess, but it is failing. A team that makes schoolboy mistakes week-in, week-out is a team that won't play for it's manager - whatever the reason.

Get rid.*

* post something along the lines of my opinion doesn't count because I don't go to games any more within the next five minutes and I beat the Vegas odds.

Fort York Redcoat
04-17-2012, 07:26 AM
Get rid of him.

He sold a vision of what he would achieve and hasn't delivered. The starting XI is largely his own now, so the team's abject start to this season falls squarely on his shoulders.

As to why it's failing I can only guess, but it is failing. A team that makes schoolboy mistakes week-in, week-out is a team that won't play for it's manager - whatever the reason.

Get rid.*

* post something along the lines of my opinion doesn't count because I don't go to games any more within the next five minutes and I beat the Vegas odds.

YOUROPINIONDOESN'TMATTERBECAUSEYOUDONTGOTOGAMES!!!

Did I make it in time? Sorry, mate just wanted you to win that money for the new baby fund!g:D

Damnit. Just over by a minute. Shoulda skipped the emoticon. Your opinion counts whether I agree with it or not, J.

TOBOR !
04-17-2012, 07:27 AM
Koryo - your post makes me think of comparing fast food to fine dining. You crave fine dining, but you want it served to you straight away, without having to wait. You also have a taste for the finest ingredients, but aren't prepared to pay for them. You want it now and you want it cheap, and it better be good or else you'll go across the street.

Pookie
04-17-2012, 07:28 AM
@ roogsy, not every post about that player is intended as a private message to you. It was noted that some folks pick their spots when it comes to Winter. I used that player is another example and I'm sure if he ever regains his form we'll see lots of examples of this "spot picking". Some of these threads, believe it or not, might not actually be started by you.

As for running and hiding, come on... what is this grade school? When have I ever not engaged you on that subject?

As for Winter, he gets my support if the goal is a long term turnaround and if he is moved out in favour of short term results, I dare say it would be a mistake to remove him from the organization completely.

Eckersley, Plata (re-signings), Frings, Koevermans are all here on this day because of him despite our record. That says a lot about his ability to impact the culture of this team and earning the trust and respect of players. Something seriously lacking since day 1 here.

19Barrett19
04-17-2012, 08:02 AM
^ my spam filters sent your post to my junk folder so I didn't see it. Sorry.

Spam is mike umlmers bull shit he writes on maple leafs websit. Say it ain't so that Toronto sports fans and writers are quick to jump to conclusions. BTW Saturady you'll be on that band wagon I was talking about.
TFC 4 life!

TOBOR !
04-17-2012, 08:13 AM
@ 19Barrett19 : Sorry, mate. It's happened again. :(

19Barrett19
04-17-2012, 08:14 AM
@ roogsy, not every post about that player is intended as a private message to you. It was noted that some folks pick their spots when it comes to Winter. I used that player is another example and I'm sure if he ever regains his form we'll see lots of examples of this "spot picking". Some of these threads, believe it or not, might not actually be started by you.

As for running and hiding, come on... what is this grade school? When have I ever not engaged you on that subject?

As for Winter, he gets my support if the goal is a long term turnaround and if he is moved out in favour of short term results, I dare say it would be a mistake to remove him from the organization completely.

Eckersley, Plata (re-signings), Frings, Koevermans are all here on this day because of him despite our record. That says a lot about his ability to impact the culture of this team and earning the trust and respect of players. Something seriously lacking since day 1 here.

Amen.

Roogsy
04-17-2012, 10:24 AM
As for Winter, he gets my support if the goal is a long term turnaround and if he is moved out in favour of short term results, I dare say it would be a mistake to remove him from the organization completely.

The question none of you have answered however is how do you know that the long-term turnaround will be successful? You have faith in his long-term plan even in though in the short-term he has been shit? HOw does that make sense? When I want to lose weight through diet and exercise, I don't consider my waist size increasing as being a good indication that "things are on track". In what world does it make sense to take a pile of steaming shit results and say "Look! Proof we're on the right track! The future looks bright!"

This is shades of Mo. "He needs time"..."he's on the right track"..."I believe in him"...those are things that were all heard at the beginning of Mo's tenure, giving him the slack and time he needed to properly fuck over this club. Winter states it's a long-term rebuild and so we accept short term underperformance because the plan is actually long-term? That's insane. And exactly what Mo did. The RIGHT thing to do is to have a long-term plan instead and measure the progress of that long-term plan with short-term benchmarks and goals. The CCL was a good benchmark to reach, but the overall record in futility has wiped out any benefits of that run by exposing the club as still having many of the failings that it had before he arrived, meaning we are no further ahead. After a year and a half? Really?

Now, I don't think Winter is in the same level of incompetence as Mo, but I don't think he's the right man for the job. You guys act like despite his poor record over FIFTY FIVE games, he still needs more time. Why is 55 games not enough of a sample size to give us all an indication of what his performance will be like? What tells you that the next 55 games are going to be substantially different than the first 55 games? How many games are needed? The fact that he doubled the cost of the roster pushing TFC's costs to the top group in the MLS and still getting awful results doesn't give people a clue?

Nobody quantifies how to measure Winter's performance. All we get from Winter apologists is "he needs more time". Exactly the same error made with Mo Johnston. And then when we wind up with another steaming pile of shits as results, we wonder why?

Last season when people were hating on me for ragging on Winter, I was told, wait till next year, if by halfway in the season he's not getting the job done, he should be gone. Now that it looks like by the halfway mark we are indeed going to have a shit record, people are extending that to the end of the season in the hope that the longshot may happen and we get in the playoffs. And now, the rationalizations have gotten worse. Since playoffs this year are now starting to look like a longshot, I am seeing more and more "he needs next year too". It's driving me crazy how people fall right back into the same pattern as the Mo era and it isn't obvious to them. The rationalizations are also unbelievable. The starting XI is now composed completely of this management's selection. No team has ever had the turnover Toronto has had in a year. Team's have rebuilt with half the turnover we've had. There is no logical way anyone can assert that Winter has had a complete turnover and this current team has no influence from previous squads. The ONLY carry-over is an overpriced JDG which still should be hung on their necks because they had the opportunity to get rid of him and did not. But what do people do? Blame the team's entire lack of performance on JDG. Absolutely ridiculous. I am in absolute shock that people are still pulling the "he is still hamstrung with players from previous management" excuse. It's insane.

There's an unwritten practice in stock market trading that applies here. You don't chase a trade. Lose money on a trade, book your losses, move on and make them up elsewhere. Don't wait for an investment to come back from a loss before you decide to get out. You will wind up with Nortel. That's what you guys are doing here. You are waiting for Nortel to jump back up to $100 a share and all you will wind up is with a bankrupt company worth zero. All because you weren't willing to cut your losses even when the performance numbers were staring at you right in the face.

Azerban (I think) put up a good Wiki link you all should read and hopefully realize you fall right in that category.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs

Einstein said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. It's possible Einstein might consider applying that definition here.

trane
04-17-2012, 10:31 AM
I am not anti-Winter, and I am not for firing him right now. However, I have to agree with Roogsy giving him anything more that a few more game to turn it around, is make no sense. He is not going to become SAF, Ancellotti or Lippi if he cannot squeeze out some point in the immediate future.

BHTC Mike
04-17-2012, 10:33 AM
what have we seen from winter? Um, the TFC that played LA, Dallas and Santos was by FAR the best TFC we've ever seen. The trick is getting that consistently. But those performances were MILES ahead of the next best game we've ever played. I don't even know what it'd be
Has our comprehensive home win again Cruz Azul under Preki been erased from history in the rush to celebrate the Dutch attacking 4-3-3? Crushing a tired and disinterested Dallas is arguable but beating LA 2-1 in a game where they blew numerous chances and had a possibly legitimate opening goal called back is "MILES ahead" of that performance? What about the epic 2-2 away draw that saw us through the CCL qualifying stage in 2010? Against a good Motagua side in a hostile Central American environment that was considered "historic" at the time too. TFC has always had great MOMENTS; moments don't make a successful season though.

Being fair to Winter we did have a great game in Columbus too. But that highlights another problem: under Winter we've only ever had ONE great home victory. Santos at home was an epic night and a great performance but still only a draw. The only really memorable WIN at home was the V-Cup final last year. It's not entirely reflective of his entire time in charge but that has to colour the perceptions of the fan base.

Phil
04-17-2012, 10:37 AM
I need more time personally to see if this is working or not. The stats are not good, but there are some things that don't show up on paper (or they do, I just don't look for them).

I thought the Santos draw at home was the best game I have seen them play. They could lose games like that and I would be happy if they showed that kind of commitment to one another.

I am disturbed by the team completly missing that same drive right now and its is sounding the alarm bells big time. For me, pulling the parachute now on Winter would be writing this season off completely given the transfer window is now closed.

TFC Tifoso
04-17-2012, 10:40 AM
how much of TFC's failure so far can be the responsibility of Mariner?....it is something that deserves some thought, even moreso with the word of this apparent "rift" between the two.....

I mean, Winter came here to play his style 4-3-3, that's not changing now or as long as he's here.....

the failure seems to be in many of the players who were acquired to play in this system and have shown they cannot or are having trouble.....

other teams have played well in MLS recently using posession based tactics, so it shows that something like a 4-3-3 CAN work in this league......its a matter of finding the players to do it properly and how much of that is Winter's responsibility?.....

Pookie
04-17-2012, 10:43 AM
Investments are funny. Apple was nearly bankrupt and those that held on for the long term are doing quite well.

Roogsy
04-17-2012, 10:49 AM
I need more time personally to see if this is working or not. The stats are not good, but there are some things that don't show up on paper (or they do, I just don't look for them).

I thought the Santos draw at home was the best game I have seen them play. They could lose games like that and I would be happy if they showed that kind of commitment to one another.

I am disturbed by the team completly missing that same drive right now and its is sounding the alarm bells big time. For me, pulling the parachute now on Winter would be writing this season off completely given the transfer window is now closed.

If you were my client, and you walked into my office with Nortel certificates in hand and told me "If I sell now, I would be booking my losses on this trade (aka "writing this season off completely" in your words). I'd rather wait to see if the price goes up again." What would be a reasonable response on my part? You don't have to be an expert in investing to know what a reasonable strategy would be. Do things change because you had also booked losses in Bre-X and Corel because you took the exact same stand and used the same strategy but this time, "it will be different"? Does there not come a point where we learn from our lessons?

All I know is if you walked into my office with Nortel certificates, there is only one response I would have given you. Looking at the probabilities of Nortel going back up, the best thing for you to do is to sell. And it would have been the right advice to give. If your decision was to keep the stock and then lose even more money...well...then that is all on you.

That is where we are here. People would like to think they have learned from the Mo era, but if we're making the exact same mistake, how can we say we have actually learned from our errors? I don't think we have. For this reason alone, Tom Anselmi should be gone. And this is a prime example that can be shown for generations to come as to why Championships don't come to Toronto. Championships go to teams that make the right moves. If we don't make the right moves, why should we expect to have success? Much like making the wrong moves in investments, you can't sit there and then say "we must have bad luck".

Roogsy
04-17-2012, 10:51 AM
Investments are funny. Apple was nearly bankrupt and those that held on for the long term are doing quite well.

So your suggestion for investment advice is to look for the one-off, once in a lifetime example instead of a balanced prudent approach? To you, trying to capture lightning in a bottle is the right approach to take? You think investing by the exception and not the rule will work out for you?

My father in law had a million dollar portfolio that he managed on his own and never took my advice. He was an aggressive man and wanted to take chances. Bet on the long-shots as you seem to recommend. Loved technology stocks. I bet you he'd sit there and point to Apple and think, "Hey! This will work!"







He died of cancer at 55, and left my mother-in-law with tax bills and no money and now I have to take care of her.

There are consequences that come from not learning from the lessons life throws our way. Some consequences in life are not our fault. Others fall directly at our feet.

jabbronies
04-17-2012, 10:55 AM
@roogsy

You have to take into consideration of those 55 games, how many of them were with the players he chose?
The clock for me started after the mass exodus overhaul last season. Much less than 55 games IMO.

As for the future, look at the young players he (Winter, DeClerk, Mariner) is bringing in or keeping on - Plata, Avila, Silva, Morgan, Henry, Eckersley, Cordon, Stinson . That is our future.
Look at the veterans he is bringing in or keeping on - Frings, Kovermans, Cann. Those are the players our young guys need to aspire to.
Look at the lynchpin players he is bringing in or keeping on - Johnson, Soolsma, Kocic. Players you feel more than comfortable having on the pitch at all times.

I'm happy with this so far and I think a lot of other people see the potential this lineup has. Not sure what others are so uppity about? Sure they are making mistakes, but 2 out of the 3 veteran leaders have not been around to calm the nerves. Things are going to change over the next 2-3 games, trust me. (hopfully)

ExiledRed
04-17-2012, 10:57 AM
hahahahahahahaha

Apple didnt do any housecleaning or adapt its vision at all!

Apple kept flogging an outdated technology with an incompetent CEO all the way to the top of the entertainment industry!

This is too funny..... you guys..

First Winter is the next SAF, on the basis that SAF had a bad start too.

Now TFC is Apple.

I cant stop fucking laughing, Pookie you are hilarious man, thankyou for this.

Roogsy
04-17-2012, 11:02 AM
@roogsy

You have to take into consideration of those 55 games, how many of them were with the players he chose?
The clock for me started after the mass exodus overhaul last season. Much less than 55 games IMO.

As for the future, look at the young players he (Winter, DeClerk, Mariner) is bringing in or keeping on - Plata, Avila, Silva, Morgan, Henry, Eckersley, Cordon, Stinson . That is our future.
Look at the veterans he is bringing in or keeping on - Frings, Kovermans, Cann. Those are the players our young guys need to aspire to.
Look at the lynchpin players he is bringing in or keeping on - Johnson, Soolsma, Kocic. Players you feel more than comfortable having on the pitch at all times.

I'm happy with this so far and I think a lot of other people see the potential this lineup has. Not sure what others are so uppity about? Sure they are making mistakes, but 2 out of the 3 veteran leaders have not been around to calm the nerves. Things are going to change over the next 2-3 games, trust me. (hopfully)

You tell me when the clock started and I will pull the numbers.

He couldn't work with previous players. He isn't getting results with these players. We're fudging the numbers trying to find the ideal time to "start the clock" when we're all missing the real point, which is that good coaches get results and make do with what they have.

With Winter, the excuses basically have come down to "he needs his ideal squad and until he gets it we'll accept poor results". So tell me Ravi...what happens if Winter never gets his "ideal" squad? Are we Real Madrid that can buy any player on the planet? Are we Barça that can fabricate world-class players by the truckload? When do the excuses stop Ravi when Winter is measured against his contemporaries who face the same and in many cases worse conditions (ie. rosters carried over from previous management, not having 3 DPs, no league MVP/Golden Boot winner) and yet grind out exponentially better results?

TFC OZZ
04-17-2012, 11:04 AM
I can't believe anyone would actually consider scrapping him at this point. He's had a bad run yeah, but the last thing this club needs is more instability.

jabbronies
04-17-2012, 11:05 AM
You tell me when the clock started and I will pull the numbers.

He couldn't work with previous players. He isn't getting results with these players. We're fudging the numbers trying to find the ideal time to "start the clock" when we're all missing the real point, which is that good coaches get results and make do with what they have.

With Winter, the excuses basically have come down to "he needs his ideal squad and until he gets it we'll accept poor results". So tell me Ravi...what happens if Winter never gets his "ideal" squad? Are we Real Madrid that can buy any player on the planet? Are we Barça that can fabricate world-class players by the truckload? When do the excuses stop Ravi when Winter is measured against his contemporaries who face the same and in many cases worse conditions and yet grind out exponentially better results?

End of season 2 - do we make the playoffs or not? That's when he should be judged.

Who are his contemporaries? And please don't use Sigi, Bruce Arena or other proven coaches who have just moved to a new team. Use guys who were unproven before they started and use the same time frame that we are at with Winter.

Also - use July 20th 2011 as your starting point.

Canary10
04-17-2012, 11:07 AM
We need to ask firing him for what purpose?

TFC is doing things very differently. We are playing more Canadian players than American players unlike other teams in the league (including our two rivals). We have more academy signed players v. the traditional NCAA developed players. We are implementing a 4-3-3 formation that is pretty new in a league that is still predominantly 4-4-2. We have a much younger team than the average in MLS. And I believe we have the smallest team in MLS, trying to emphasize skill over size. All of this is part of the philosophy the club is trying to implement.

Winter is all wrapped up in this approach. If we reject that this is the way forward in MLS, then yeah get rid of him because he's not going to implement another way of playing. If we accept that the approach is right and that we're on edge of a sea change in MLS, then we've got to be ready for ups and downs, stops and starts because that's what change is all about. That kind of change, under ANY manager, will be a longer term project.

So what is it we are really changing? The manager or the philosophy?

Roogsy
04-17-2012, 11:07 AM
I can't believe anyone would actually consider scrapping him at this point. He's had a bad run yeah, but the last thing this club needs is more instability.

OK, let's expand on that.

What do you think will happen if we miss the playoffs again? Is missing the playoffs not by default going to cause more instability? And if so, does it not mean by default that instability will come if you continue on the same path?

Roogsy
04-17-2012, 11:13 AM
End of season 2 - do we make the playoffs or not? That's when he should be judged.

Who are his contemporaries? And please don't use Sigi, Bruce Arena or other proven coaches who have just moved to a new team. Use guys who were unproven before they started and use the same time frame that we are at with Winter.

Also - use July 15th 2011 as your starting point.

His contemporaries are ALL the coaches in MLS. They ALL have struggles to deal with. Winter is not alone in having to deal with players on a cold streak, players that want more money, players from previous regimes, players unfamiliar with his style. Is Winter the first coach ever to take over a club in MLS?

And what reason do you have to exclude Arena and Schmidt? TFC promised us the best front office in MLS...I never heard a caveat that the "best" meant "the best...besides those two". So Winter is supposed to be measured against only coaches that have endured the exact same circumstances he has? Wow...it's a good thing we play in a league where results are adjusted by the coaching conditions each team faces.

As for coaches that are at the same time frame as Winter...I bet that would be a good exercise. Tell me, how many coaches that took over a team in one year and led them to the basement in the standings and then started 0-5 the following year with their team still had jobs? That would be an interesting exercise wouldn't it?

jabbronies
04-17-2012, 11:15 AM
His contemporaries are ALL the coaches in MLS. They ALL have struggles to deal with. Winter is not alone in having to deal with players on a cold streak, players that want more money, players from previous regimes, players unfamiliar with his style. Is Winter the first coach ever to take over a club in MLS?

And what reason do you have to exclude Arena and Schmidt? TFC promised us the best front office in MLS...I never heard a caveat that the "best" meant "the best...besides those two". So Winter is supposed to be measured against only coaches that have endured the exact same circumstances he has? Wow...it's a good thing we play in a league where results are adjusted by the coaching conditions each team faces.

As for coaches that are at the same time frame as Winter...I bet that would be a good exercise. Tell me, how many coaches that took over a team in one year and led them to the basement in the standings and then started 0-5 the following year with their team still had jobs? That would be an interesting exercise wouldn't it?

If RSL Canned Jason Kreis after the first 5 games of his second season, would they have won the championship in their third?

__wowza
04-17-2012, 11:16 AM
^ i think jabby meant that they had previous first team coaching experience.
aside from that i agree with mostly everything you just said.

Waggy
04-17-2012, 11:18 AM
His contemporaries are ALL the coaches in MLS. They ALL have struggles to deal with. Winter is not alone in having to deal with players on a cold streak, players that want more money, players from previous regimes, players unfamiliar with his style. Is Winter the first coach ever to take over a club in MLS?

And what reason do you have to exclude Arena and Schmidt? TFC promised us the best front office in MLS...I never heard a caveat that the "best" meant "the best...besides those two". So Winter is supposed to be measured against only coaches that have endured the exact same circumstances he has? Wow...it's a good thing we play in a league where results are adjusted by the coaching conditions each team faces.

As for coaches that are at the same time frame as Winter...I bet that would be a good exercise. Tell me, how many coaches that took over a team in one year and led them to the basement in the standings and then started 0-5 the following year with their team still had jobs? That would be an interesting exercise wouldn't it?

If you're saying that he should be judged for leading a team to the basement, you have to factor in the team he took over. The team that was feuding with its best/star player, that had earned a reputation as being a terrible place to play due to shady management, a team that dealt unfairly with players, that has never had any sort of success, that has more pressure on it than most if not all other MLS teams (the media coverage TFC gets is crazy compared to most of the league), that was the laughing stock of the league for terrible play, terrible management, terrible direction. Everything but the fans. You can't just say he lead them to the basement. We've been locked in the cellar since day 1, year 1.

Edit: So that's the situation he came into, he completely turned the roster over (save for a few players). Changed the style of play. Brought in an actual leader (something we've never had before. Frings is SEVERAL levels above anyone else in our history). To give up on him before even seeing what the squad he's assembled can do is ridiculous. We have a clear first team right now for the first time ever. But they've yet to play a single game together.

Roogsy
04-17-2012, 11:18 AM
If RSL Canned Jason Kreis after the first 5 games of his second season, would they have won the championship in their third?

Did he start 0-5 with a -8 goal diff?

Phil
04-17-2012, 11:20 AM
Sorry but equating Winter with Nortel just floors me. The youth and change of tactics with this team actually are good points. Evaluating how well Winter is executing the system is the question for me and I still need more room for evaluation considering the scope of change here.

My biggest issue with Mo was that he made it up as he went along. There was no focus, no development plan. We have more 'football' people in the management end now and my first objection would be maybe changing and defining those roles to be more traditional.

Anyhow, that is another discussion point that maybe doesnt belong here. Results are not good right now, there is no denying it.

jabbronies
04-17-2012, 11:23 AM
Did he start 0-5 with a -8 goal diff?

nope, but he did start 1-3-1 with no other games added to the schedule (CCL).
and a minus 2 GAA - 9 goals against 7 for

Not a very positive start don't you think?

Our First 5 games we are
1-2-2 (CCL should count no?)
5 goals for 10 against

Roogsy
04-17-2012, 11:23 AM
If you're saying that he should be judged for leading a team to the basement, you have to factor in the team he took over. The team that was feuding with its best/star player, that has never had any sort of success, that was the laughing stock of the league. You can't just say he lead them to the basement. We've been locked in the cellar since day 1, year 1.

And he got rid of that player after game 2. Using DeRo's departure is a crutch. DeRo left here with a 1-1-0 record, gave them cap space and players to do as they wishes as they moved on after him. You're basically saying we shouldn't judge him on what they did with that room.

TFC never had any success? Stating the obvious aren't we? Isn't that exactly what he was brought in to change? And yet year 2 and success has never looked further.

We're still the laughing stock of the league.

He took over 2.5 months before the season started and managed the whole season...to me, that's "leading" them to whatever position they finished. 17th I believe it was?

The fact that we started in the basement doesn't mean we needed to end there. As far as I know, all teams begin at zero on Day 1 of the season. We're all in first, we're all in last. Where you wind up at the end of the season is where you were led.

Waggy
04-17-2012, 11:27 AM
And he got rid of that player after game 2. Using DeRo's departure is a crutch. DeRo left here with a 1-1-0 record, gave them cap space and players to do as they wishes as they moved on after him. You're basically saying we shouldn't judge him on what they did with that room.

TFC never had any success? Stating the obvious aren't we? Isn't that exactly what he was brought in to change? And yet year 2 and success has never looked further.

We're still the laughing stock of the league.

He took over 2.5 months before the season started and managed the whole season...to me, that's "leading" them to whatever position they finished. 17th I believe it was?

The fact that we started in the basement doesn't mean we needed to end there. As far as I know, all teams begin at zero on Day 1 of the season. We're all in first, we're all in last. Where you wind up at the end of the season is where you were led.

So to mention the reality of the situation is to create excuses? The Dero mess started LONG before Winter got here, and hit high gear before he got here. That's not an excuse, that's a fact. It happened. You can't deny the realities of the situation. If you want to criticize his handling of it that's one thing. But he didn't cause the problem, and I'm sure walking into such a shit show was not his idea. With Dero that year we lost to an expansion team as well did we not? Playing their first ever game? What are we all mad about right now again? At worst we're no better off than we were then. Again that's hardly leading a team to the basement