Postgame rant TFC v Chivas

[Oldtimer]

Meltdown 5-4-3-2-1

[volunteer]

it's a pity.

[Strans]

You can tell how big of a TFC fan you are by counting the number of times you've said 'This is a new low'.


This is a new low.

[Brooker]

Just have fun out there, TFC! That's the main thing.

[nickio]

Objectively, Chivas WON this more than TFC lost the game.

But who cares, 0-5

[Soccerpro]

"we had a lot of chances, unlucky etc etc" - Postgame comments from Aaron Winter.

[Strans]

Just have fun out there, TFC! That's the main thing.

Whose mom brought the orange slices?

[Waggy]

Kudos to anyone who roused the energy to truly give a fuck anymore. Im so far past getting upset. If Frings doesnt make the same kind of impact he did last year, this may be it for me and this club. I just dont have it in me to care anymore

[Sweeper]

Can we get Preki back?

[Roogsy]

At least we have a pro soccer team in Toronto!

Let's enjoy that beer at the stadium and have some fun. That's the important thing.

[nickio]

So anyone give up on TFC after this game?

[Richard]

Cann looked good, just like Frings he is a leader at the back. Our finishing is killing us and we have more than defensive concerns to think about now.

[boban]

As it was said in the thread that just got closed, we had chances but no luck.
If it wasn't for us not having any points going in to this match, today's outcome would feel so bad.
Certainly not as bad as some of the comments make it out.

[Strans]

I enjoy watching Toronto FC. I also enjoy punching myself in the face repeatedly.

[boban]

So anyone give up on TFC after this game?

As long as MLSE owns it I have given up.
In the meantime I just hope against hope.

[Oldtimer]

Whose mom brought the orange slices?

You can get official precut TFC ones at Metro.

[Rene Kingsriver]

As it was said in the thread that just got closed, we had chances but no luck.
If it wasn't for us not having any points going in to this match, today's outcome would feel so bad.
Certainly not as bad as some of the comments make it out.

We were 1-0 down at home with a gale behind us, even TFC aren't so bad not to create a few scoring opportunities under those circumstances.

[MartinUtd]

Something about apathy...

[SirBobSaget]

The Santos away game was the De Guzman jumps the shark moment for me, this game might have been the TFC breaking point for me. People are pushing on Wither but what about Mariner? The key to success for an MLS team is landing the productive mid tier players. Mariner brought in Caicedo, Aceval and Lambe. Swing and a miss x3.

[nickio]

So,

-New low 0-5
-Never lead in an MLS game this year
-0 goals at home

.. probably something else

[Eastend]

This team sucks. Worst team I have ever supported.

EVER!!!!

Dom.

[Rene Kingsriver]

As long as MLSE owns it I have given up.
In the meantime I just hope against hope.

Since the sacking of Mo, what specifically have MLSE done wrong?

[nickio]

And truthfully, we only really created 2, maybe 3 GOOD chances. The rest were REALLY REALLY hopeful.

[SirBobSaget]

As it was said in the thread that just got closed, we had chances but no luck.
If it wasn't for us not having any points going in to this match, today's outcome would feel so bad.
Certainly not as bad as some of the comments make it out.

Its an accumulation issue, if this game happened after a 1-1-2 start then we would be more likely to feel that we had chances but were unlucky. 0-5-0 -> what a bunch of losers

[Rene Kingsriver]

The Santos away game was the De Guzman jumps the shark moment for me, this game might have been the TFC breaking point for me. People are pushing on Wither but what about Mariner? The key to success for an MLS team is landing the productive mid tier players. Mariner brought in Caicedo, Aceval and Lambe. Swing and a miss x3.

You should read Duane Rollins piece at The 24th Minute, according to him Mariner and Winter don't exactly see eye to eye on team selection and player recruitment

[Soccerpro]

The Santos away game was the De Guzman jumps the shark moment for me, this game might have been the TFC breaking point for me. People are pushing on Wither but what about Mariner? The key to success for an MLS team is landing the productive mid tier players. Mariner brought in Caicedo, Aceval and Lambe. Swing and a miss x3.

All 3 offseason additionals have been bad.
And if FC Dallas fans are to be believed Jeremy Hall sucks too.

[JackBauer24]

We should start playing home games in various CONCACAF nation's stadiums, so it feels more like CCL.

[Richard]

So,

-New low 0-5
-Never lead in an MLS game this year
-0 goals at home

.. probably something else

Gave Montreal first MLS win.

[SirBobSaget]

Since the sacking of Mo, what specifically have MLSE done wrong?

Not buying out De Guzman's contract maybe? who knows what theyre doing behind the scenes, all I know is every one of their teams TFC, Leafs, Raptors are laughing stalks of their respective leagues over a span of many years.

[Waggy]

As it was said in the thread that just got closed, we had chances but no luck.
If it wasn't for us not having any points going in to this match, today's outcome would feel so bad.
Certainly not as bad as some of the comments make it out.

Luck is generally a by product of effort. You have to put yourself in a position to get lucky. Outside of the last 10 minutes of the game, when did we deserve any luck today? And trying for 1/9th of a game isn't NEARLY the sort of effort to support. I don't mind TFC losing if we're out there working hard, trying to play properly and things don't go our way. The game today was not such a situation

[Waggy]

The god damn fucking Jays! We fucked it in the 8th and 9th to Baltimore AGAIN?!?! That's it. I quit. I can't. I just can't. #TFC #Leafs #Raptors #Jays #Argos #Loserville

[king dave]

Hey. On the bright side?
The Beach Boys are coming to town.
Fucking yeeaaahhhhh!!!!!!
KD.

[Strans]

The god damn fucking Jays! We fucked it in the 8th and 9th to Baltimore AGAIN?!?! That's it. I quit. I can't. I just can't. #TFC #Leafs #Raptors #Jays #Argos #Loserville

It's a long season, but man this is tough to watch after that match.

[steveb_ea]

Although today was a "New Low", I'm curious to see what happens now that Cann is back, freeing Frings up to be more of a playmaker.

I know that this is putting the messiah yoke on Frings, but, god love the lads, we need a messiah.

[Sweeper]

I don't understand how people can quit supporting their team because of performance? Get angry at coaching, management, players yes, but giving up on the team, I don't get it. Never understood band wagon fans.

[Roogsy]

Not buying out De Guzman's contract maybe? who knows what theyre doing behind the scenes, all I know is every one of their teams TFC, Leafs, Raptors are laughing stalks of their respective leagues over a span of many years.

That's not MLSE...you can look on the sidelines for the answer to that question. So we're placing decisions Winter/Mariner have made on to ownership? I'm anti-MLSE but for proven reasons, not made up stuff.

[Roogsy]

Hey. On the bright side?
The Beach Boys are coming to town.
Fucking yeeaaahhhhh!!!!!!
KD.

Actually the REAL bright side is that Comic Con is in town!

[RedFives]

The god damn fucking Jays! We fucked it in the 8th and 9th to Baltimore AGAIN?!?! That's it. I quit. I can't. I just can't. #TFC #Leafs #Raptors #Jays #Argos #Loserville

Nuts to sports I'm switching to an arts fan, how's Toronto's Opera team, or what ever they would be called.

[Kooper]

At least we have a pro soccer team in Toronto!

Let's enjoy that beer at the stadium and have some fun. That's the important thing.

I could get behind that if they weren't charging me 12$ a beer. I can put up with a losing team for 7$ a beer in bar or at home. That way I can turn the sound down and leave me only the sound of my own sobbing.

[Kooper]

Maybe for the next game we start a "Let's go Blue Jays" chant. That got some media coverage when it happened at the Leafs game.

[Rene Kingsriver]

Nuts to sports I'm switching to an arts fan, how's Toronto's Opera team, or what ever they would be called.

The Toronto Toscas

[Waggy]

It's a long season, but man this is tough to watch after that match.

I'm still confident in em. Just back to back bullpen losses is tough. Esp considering that 3 of our 4 losses are hanging squarly on middle relief*. Just... arg. The Jays lose when they should win. TFC just loses, and the Raps win when they HAVE to lose. The Jays are our only real hope. If this rebuild doesn't go moderately well, I fear for the psychiatric condition of this city.


SOMEONE JUST THREW A POTATO ON THE FIELD! Awesome.


So ya. I dunno. I honestly just think MLSE is snake bit. Jack of all trades, master of none. Spend crazy money on all teams front offices, bring in the best talent they can, the biggest scouting departments, the best trainers and facilities, the biggest budget they are structurally able to give, and none of it makes a difference. Anywhere.


*notwithstanding an epic jays come back that will salvage my saturday

[nickio]

"Maybe for the next game we start a "Let's go Blue Jays" chant. That got some media coverage when it happened at the Leafs game."

Ye but no one gives a shit about TFC to start with

[Richard]

Although today was a "New Low", I'm curious to see what happens now that Cann is back, freeing Frings up to be more of a playmaker.

I know that this is putting the messiah yoke on Frings, but, god love the lads, we need a messiah.

Ooh dont worry, Frings will every player by the balls after this recent run of games.

[Roogsy]

But hey! We have a shiny new Academy Training ground where the best product will either leave or be promoted to a 1st team that can't get it's act together! #brightside

[T-boy]

But hey! We have a shiny new Academy Training ground where the best product will either leave or be promoted to a 1st team that can't get it's act together! #brightside

or sign for Montreal!

[nickio]

Re today though,

apart from the result, I actually have little beef against any 1 player.

But I think Avila deserves the start over Silva next game.

[T-boy]

Silva was actually terrible today! He kept giving the ball away much too easily! Avila definitely deserves a start next weekend!

[Kooper]

So ya. I dunno. I honestly just think MLSE is snake bit. Jack of all trades, master of none. Spend crazy money on all teams front offices, bring in the best talent they can, the biggest scouting departments, the best trainers and facilities, the biggest budget they are structurally able to give, and none of it makes a difference. Anywhere.

I disagree they do spend the most money but they can't seem to find the best tallent. I firmly believe that the leadership of Alselmi and Richard Pettie don't know how to find leaders and people who can run an organization. They just find the highest priced tallent.

[boozilla]

Actually left at the half to enjoy cheaper beers at the bar.

[T-boy]

I admit I'll support TFC until the day I die. But I can't condone what has happened today, or so far in the league this season. The CCL results are masking what is turning into the worst TFC season so far. It was wonderful that the TFC players and management could turn up the heat in the CCL, but they need to turn those performances into league games.

I now have VERY little faith that Aron Winter and the current management can turn TFC into a playoff competing team.

I'll support TFC until I die, but I can no longer support the current management team. They seem to have no idea how to set up a winning team.

I don't even have much complaint over the players - I think a lot of them are good players. But there os CLEARLY something very wrong at management level if you can't get a good set of players to turn in a winning performance at home, and not have a semi-decent shot on goal until the 80th minute!

GRRRRRRR.

[nickio]

Many have predicted Defensive problems, but no one could've predicted a goal drought THIS BAD.

[Rene Kingsriver]

I disagree they do spend the most money but they can't seem to find the best tallent. I firmly believe that the leadership of Alselmi and Richard Pettie don't know how to find leaders and people who can run an organization. They just find the highest priced tallent.

Yes they're easily suckered first by Mo then by Klinsmann, don't think they did their research when they hired him as a consultant having said that neither did the USSF when they made him coach

[Waggy]

I disagree they do spend the most money but they can't seem to find the best tallent. I firmly believe that the leadership of Alselmi and Richard Pettie don't know how to find leaders and people who can run an organization. They just find the highest priced tallent.

That's definitely true. But it's not like they're hiring incompetent people. It's like the team. Go player by player on our roster today vs Chivas, we have more talent than them! But for whatever reason, through however many coaches and 2 gms, the effort just isn't consistantly there. And that I just don't get. I'm of the opinion a coach of a pro team is to decide a roster, implement a strategy and the tactics to go along with it and manage egos. Motivating players to give their max effort on game day isn't one of those things. A pro athlete has to show up ready to play. Frings is our sparkplug, he makes everyone go. Without him we clearly don't have much of a chance, and have ZERO confidence. Short term, that situation is fine. Assuming he comes back, stays healthy and picks up where he left off. If he can hold on for 2 or 3 years, long enough for the academy players to have a chance to really take over (and allow our budget to EXPLODE), we'll be fine. If he can't, I think we're reaching the point where every game there will just be more and more empty seats. Especially once the Euros, then the Olympics take most casual sports fans interest over the next few months. Not to mention if the Jays are competitive. Long story short, I reaaaaaaaaaally hope Frings can turn this thing around

[TFC USA]

Protest MLSE, not Winter.

Protest their shittiness.

Get them the fuck out of sports forever.

[kodiakTFC]

Bah humbug.

[69Chevy396]

Bah humbug.

Hey things could be a lot worse. We could have DeRo scoring goals and playing exciting football. But then we wouldnt have Koervermans on the team, who is sure to score at least one or two goals this season. We could have 6 losses to date, jeez. LA last year lost 5 games in the entire season, so we still have a chance to match their record, all we have to do is never lose again. And, we could have a real manager, one with mls experience, but then we wouldnt have Winter, that genius who brought us exciting Dutch attacking football, you know, where three guys run up the pitch waving at the fans to make sure they are paying attention. But we are rebuilding, thats right, rebuilding around a 37 year old defender and a guy who gets paid over $1 million per season to prove to the world that he really does have a load of skill even if no other club in the Hemisphere would hire him to clean their clubhouse.

[TFCwestcan]

Of the first five games we should have had points today and in the Columbus game. So dissapointing for the supporters. Start the clock on the end of tenure of Winter & co. Next game is a must win, oh yeah just like today's must win. I think I am going to avoid soccer for a few days....sheese.

Positives, Cann look good, the player's were yelling at each other, they didn't give up, Avila looked good, and Frings return's next week.

[brad]

The Santos away game was the De Guzman jumps the shark moment for me, this game might have been the TFC breaking point for me. People are pushing on Wither but what about Mariner? The key to success for an MLS team is landing the productive mid tier players. Mariner brought in Caicedo, Aceval and Lambe. Swing and a miss x3.

The rumor mill is swirling that Marnier and the "MLSers" are being ostracized by the "4-3-3 camp". They have been there since pre-season, but are picking up again. If that's the case - might not be Mariners fault.

[T.O TILL I DIE]

I hate MLSE with a passion! there the reason why the sports team they own are so terrible... and if anyone else thinks otherwise please i beg of you to prove me wrong!

[kodiakTFC]

I'm TFC 'til I die, I just hope I don't live very long.

[T.O TILL I DIE]

Hey things could be a lot worse. We could have DeRo scoring goals and playing exciting football. But then we wouldnt have Koervermans on the team, who is sure to score at least one or two goals this season. We could have 6 losses to date, jeez. LA last year lost 5 games in the entire season, so we still have a chance to match their record, all we have to do is never lose again. And, we could have a real manager, one with mls experience, but then we wouldnt have Winter, that genius who brought us exciting Dutch attacking football, you know, where three guys run up the pitch waving at the fans to make sure they are paying attention. But we are rebuilding, thats right, rebuilding around a 37 year old defender and a guy who gets paid over $1 million per season to prove to the world that he really does have a load of skill even if no other club in the Hemisphere would hire him to clean their clubhouse.

good post, agree on it 99.9% lol

[JonO]

Is it me or should Plata have been subbed out at the half. The ref was letting a lot of physical stuff go, which really hurts his game. He was just getting bowled over...

[sully]

On an optimistic note: there's a point when tragedy becomes comedy. On a realistic note: Winter must go.

[Waggy]

I hate MLSE with a passion! there the reason why the sports team they own are so terrible... and if anyone else thinks otherwise please i beg of you to prove me wrong!

The Leafs havent won since 67, the Raps old ownership was WAY way worse than MLSE has been and as bad as TFC are, 6 years in they exist and average over 20k a game over their lifespan which really, is shocking. MLSE is bad, there is far far far far worse out there though. Donald Sterling, the racist, tyranical, hooker loving, hooker beating, player berating cheapest SOB to ever own a pro sports team could win a title this year. Luck goes a long way

Edit: Also under MLSE stewardship, the Leafs went to 2 conference finals. The Raps COULD have had a dynasty if Tmac didn't leave (according to Kobe, Vince and Oakley). Both have won divisions. Both have been high seeds in the playoffs

[Beach_Red]

Since the sacking of Mo, what specifically have MLSE done wrong?

Instead of hiring someone to run the team they hired a consultant who sold them some crap about "culture," and gave them a plan to follow.

Now, of course, the consultant will say the problem has been improper implementation of the plan and MLSE will say the problem was that the plan was not well suited to MLS.

What they should've done was what RSL did and hired a guy with some heart and some connection to the team - they should have made it Danny Dichio's team. But that would have been a gutsy decision, not a safe one like hiring a consultant and no one at MLSE will ever go out on a limb like that.

[Jack]

Jack's Random Postgame Thoughts

Cann looked good. Doneil Henry actually looked decent and his presence should nail Ty Harden to the bench for eternity. He was also a lot more reassuring for me than Aceval back there. Avila should get a chance to start, he looked decent. Koevermans needs to learn what corners of the net are, rather than shooting at the middle. I thought Ryan Johnson deserved a goal today, he worked hard and had some decent chances. The goalscorer was Eckersly's man. Ashton Morgan can't cross for shit. I'd almost like to see a backline of Ecks, Cann, Henry and Aceval at left back (where he played a lot in Chile and he seems to know how to cross). Our midfield seems pretty rough - Silva looks like he has good potential, but isn't ready quite yet. Dunfield is a workhorse with limited talent but, sadly, does a better job than JDG. Lambe...he tries, but he should be a backup, not using an international slot.

This game didn't feel so gut-wrenching, but at the same time, there needs to be that sense of urgency we saw in the second half for the whole game. I just get the impression that our guys don't click. There were a lot of instances of miscommunication, passes to bad places and behind guys, mis-timed runs and stuff. Like they don't know each other, for which there is no excuse.

[Waggy]

Semi serious question, at what point does Garber start to get worried enough about the future of TFC to start rigging things for us like he does for LA/NYG? I'd lay an over/under of 2 or 3 months

[Abou Sky]

Nuts to sports I'm switching to an arts fan, how's Toronto's Opera team, or what ever they would be called.

Can you go in my place? My wife gets season tics...

Actually, you just made me feel a lot better. I would most defo rather see TFC lose than go to the opera.

Thanks man!

[Stryker]

O and five huh? Good thing my heart isn't in this team like it once was. I'm just apathetic now. Call me a fair weather fan if you like, but years of bullshit from MLSE and a revolving door roster of players who lacked skill or heart and in many cases both has just made me bitter. Go TFC.
Sigh.

[Mishko]

Is it me or should Plata have been subbed out at the half. The ref was letting a lot of physical stuff go, which really hurts his game. He was just getting bowled over...

Playing against Plata must feel like playing against a kid..

[Jack]

Another thing I noticed is, apart from Johnson, Koevermans and Cann, our team is tiny. They pushed us around all over the pitch.

[ensco]

If Minda played here, he'd be a god. What a nice player.

How's our Ecuadorian defender Caicedo doing?

[Stryker]

Another thing I noticed is, apart from Johnson, Koevermans and Cann, our team is tiny. They pushed us around all over the pitch.
Nah that's just Dunfield falling down as usual. My two year old daughter has more co-ordination. How the man managed to make a career playing pro soccer is truly a mystery.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

At least we have a pro soccer team in Toronto!

Let's enjoy that beer at the stadium and have some fun. That's the important thing.

Its hard to enjoy at $14.00 a beer, lol

[69Chevy396]

Jack's Random Postgame Thoughts

Cann looked good. Doneil Henry actually looked decent and his presence should nail Ty Harden to the bench for eternity. He was also a lot more reassuring for me than Aceval back there. Avila should get a chance to start, he looked decent. Koevermans needs to learn what corners of the net are, rather than shooting at the middle. I thought Ryan Johnson deserved a goal today, he worked hard and had some decent chances. The goalscorer was Eckersly's man. Ashton Morgan can't cross for shit. I'd almost like to see a backline of Ecks, Cann, Henry and Aceval at left back (where he played a lot in Chile and he seems to know how to cross). Our midfield seems pretty rough - Silva looks like he has good potential, but isn't ready quite yet. Dunfield is a workhorse with limited talent but, sadly, does a better job than JDG. Lambe...he tries, but he should be a backup, not using an international slot.

This game didn't feel so gut-wrenching, but at the same time, there needs to be that sense of urgency we saw in the second half for the whole game. I just get the impression that our guys don't click. There were a lot of instances of miscommunication, passes to bad places and behind guys, mis-timed runs and stuff. Like they don't know each other, for which there is no excuse.
Every lousy team has a few decent players, Rick Vaive scored 50 three times while playing on one of the worst teams in NHL history. TFC continues to lose and to disappoint its fans because losing and not winning creates a fan base willing to support the team through years of ineptitude. Win constantly and you have to spend more and more money bringing the fans back. Losing creates anticipation and desire. Winning is the last thing MLSE wants, so they present you with the illusion of wanting to build a good team, but the reality is that it is simply counter productive for them. It is no fluke that the leafs, the raptors, TFC are garbage teams, just look at the profit margin. If mlse were losing money we would not be having this discussion.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Is it me or should Plata have been subbed out at the half. The ref was letting a lot of physical stuff go, which really hurts his game. He was just getting bowled over...

He still made some great plays and fed Kouvermans with that nice cross that he almost flicked into the net.

[king dave]

I think a town hall could set this ship right.
KD.

[Rene Kingsriver]

Instead of hiring someone to run the team they hired a consultant who sold them some crap about "culture," and gave them a plan to follow.

Now, of course, the consultant will say the problem has been improper implementation of the plan and MLSE will say the problem was that the plan was not well suited to MLS.

What they should've done was what RSL did and hired a guy with some heart and some connection to the team - they should have made it Danny Dichio's team. But that would have been a gutsy decision, not a safe one like hiring a consultant and no one at MLSE will ever go out on a limb like that.

Hey I absolutely agree with you that's what they should've done but they did what corporations are supposed to do when they don't have expertise themselves, sometimes you get a good consultant sometimes you don't unfortunately we didn't.

[ManUtd4ever]

Sigh. I'm at a loss for words.

What else can be said regarding this disasterous start to a season that could very well be rendered meaningless mere weeks into the schedule?

I'm almost at the point where I'm not looking forward to going to the stadium anymore.

[Rene Kingsriver]

Anyone know what the attendance was?

[Stryker]

Anyone know what the attendance was?

Pathetic?

[Nuvinho]

18K and change

[ChrisFizik]

Thought I heard attendance ~15000. Looked like 10 maybe.


Rough day. Rough thread.
At this point I'm just goin next week for the Chicago hot dogs at the tail gate. Will need motivating to keep my chants up all match in the bunker.

[SirBobSaget]

RE: Attendance

Look at the ticket trader thread, members here desperate to unload for a fraction of Face Value, I'm sure others off the msg board world just eat the tickets. All of this is on a fair weathered Saturday afternoon.

I'm sure that a lot of fans (like me) regret .. .nay ABHORE having made another ticket commitment this season. I know for me I have not got any where near worth the 3k i shipped over to our MLSE overlords last few seasons in exchange of "entertainment". I'm done paying.

[iy12l]

TFC need to stop crossing to score goals.. There are better ways to score like through balls or 1v1 runs. Even Barcelona who plays our system never cross, they keep passing the ball around until they can make a nice through ball and score. Ajax do the same thing almost, they do crosses sometime though, but not as much as tfc does. The thing is, this entire match we were playing hoofball where ecks kept hoofing the ball and we kept losing possession. We need to stop hoofing the ball and keep the ball, be comfortable with the ball and make the other team run around in circles instead of us.

[Jack]

Every lousy team has a few decent players, Rick Vaive scored 50 three times while playing on one of the worst teams in NHL history. TFC continues to lose and to disappoint its fans because losing and not winning creates a fan base willing to support the team through years of ineptitude. Win constantly and you have to spend more and more money bringing the fans back. Losing creates anticipation and desire. Winning is the last thing MLSE wants, so they present you with the illusion of wanting to build a good team, but the reality is that it is simply counter productive for them. It is no fluke that the leafs, the raptors, TFC are garbage teams, just look at the profit margin. If mlse were losing money we would not be having this discussion.
I agree with you.

Our team is simply not good enough and, just like the other teams under the same ownership group, I see no impetus to change that. I think they are just an incredibly inept ownership group who plays things safe and covers their asses. As long as the money comes in, why take risks? That would be a very poor investment strategy.

[Suds]

That's not MLSE...you can look on the sidelines for the answer to that question. So we're placing decisions Winter/Mariner have made on to ownership? I'm anti-MLSE but for proven reasons, not made up stuff.

Agreed. Anything that is wrong with this team at the moment resides solely on the management, coaches, and players. It will be them who need to fix it.


On the plus side I saved shit-load of cash not going to the game today. Travel, pre-game beers, in-game beers, after game beers, food, cabs. Sometimes when you think it sucks you can't make the game there's a silver lining. :)

[TFC Cityboy]

Jack's Random Postgame Thoughts

Cann looked good. Doneil Henry actually looked decent and his presence should nail Ty Harden to the bench for eternity. He was also a lot more reassuring for me than Aceval back there. Avila should get a chance to start, he looked decent. Koevermans needs to learn what corners of the net are, rather than shooting at the middle. I thought Ryan Johnson deserved a goal today, he worked hard and had some decent chances. The goalscorer was Eckersly's man. Ashton Morgan can't cross for shit. I'd almost like to see a backline of Ecks, Cann, Henry and Aceval at left back (where he played a lot in Chile and he seems to know how to cross). Our midfield seems pretty rough - Silva looks like he has good potential, but isn't ready quite yet. Dunfield is a workhorse with limited talent but, sadly, does a better job than JDG. Lambe...he tries, but he should be a backup, not using an international slot.

This game didn't feel so gut-wrenching, but at the same time, there needs to be that sense of urgency we saw in the second half for the whole game. I just get the impression that our guys don't click. There were a lot of instances of miscommunication, passes to bad places and behind guys, mis-timed runs and stuff. Like they don't know each other, for which there is no excuse.

I can pretty much agree with all of this.
Call me crazy but I really can't help feeling that once Torsten is back we are maybe 2 players away from being a decent MLS side.
Midfield is key- look at today Dunfield, Silva and Johnson...that is way too lightweight especially when the 2 widemen up top are Lambe and Plata and not ball winners. Put TF in there and things look better. I'd like to see Eric Avila,Matt Stinson or Oscar Cordon given a run. VERY interesting to see JDG dropped after a few weeks of doing a piss poor impression of a captian. Hopefully a sign the club is working to ship the tosser out.

Fantastic to see Adrian back- he and Doneil looked good and on the plus side no major defensive brainfarts. We were the better side today and had multiple chances to win the match.

The sky is not falling.

Keep the faith boys and girls, and for those ready to give up on the team you claim to support, go right ahead...those who remain will take much more pleasure when this turns around as we are loyal supporters.

[Dave67]

Every lousy team has a few decent players, Rick Vaive scored 50 three times while playing on one of the worst teams in NHL history. TFC continues to lose and to disappoint its fans because losing and not winning creates a fan base willing to support the team through years of ineptitude. Win constantly and you have to spend more and more money bringing the fans back. Losing creates anticipation and desire. Winning is the last thing MLSE wants, so they present you with the illusion of wanting to build a good team, but the reality is that it is simply counter productive for them. It is no fluke that the leafs, the raptors, TFC are garbage teams, just look at the profit margin. If mlse were losing money we would not be having this discussion.

Vaive was probably drunk half the time. Maybe they should start serving the players at half time.

Could only catch sporadic moments of the game as I was stuck at a family thing. Supply and demand doesn't seem to be working so hot these days eh Paul?

Koevermans.. you gotta put that one in the back of the net man.

[Toronto]

Until the team hires people in the front office who understand the North American style of play, we're fucked. No more Europeans who can't find jobs in their homelands. If Winter was a great coach, he'd be coaching somewhere in Holland. Vancouver got it right this year. We have our heads so far up our asses we can't see that you can't win with "total football" unless you have 11 players on the pitch that can play like Dutch professionals.

[jabbronies]

We lost that game today. We were able to move the ball all the way to the 18 yard box, but then couldn't do anything once we were there. At the end of the day, the small mistakes are what killed us.

Things like heading the ball back into the box instead of bringing it down and shooting on net; Beating a guy on the break, but then pulling the ball back inside to try and re-deek the defender; holding on to the ball too long and making a pass 2 seconds after it should have initially been made; shooting at the goalie instead of away from him.

The players we have are making bad decisions all over the pitch. period.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

To go a couple of pages back, I thought the attendance was pretty good in terms of the streak the team's on and the weather. I'd like to see Henry and Avila start next game. I figure Winter's got two or three more games before his position becomes untenable.

[ryan]

I almost dont want to attend another match until Dunfield and Lambe are off the roster.

Dunfield has alot of heart and works it, but he's got zero skill. I can't stand seeing things like...

Corner kick too shallow...Dunfield runs to retrieve it. Has space and time, but just hurriedly lobs one into the mix. Everytime. Zero skill. Zero creativity. Just wants the ball away from him.
Ecks throws the ball in, Dunfield takes and gets it right back to Ecks immediately who is under pressure, kicks it, goes back into touch. Ecks tosses it back in, same thing happens. Dunfield just wants to ball gone as soon as he gets it.
Pretty sure Kocic went mental on him because he AVOIDED blocking a kick and saw it happen.

Lambe...no real vision and his speed seems overrated cause he didn't out run anyone today. Quit on far too many plays throughout the game while other players further away come running in trying to do anything. Just pathetic. I have no idea what anyone sees in this guy to be honest. The once in a blue moon move that actually works doesn't really amount to anything anyways.

[Nuvinho]

Next week please play Henry and Cann - with Frings in front of them.

[Jack]

Pretty sure Kocic went mental on him because he AVOIDED blocking a kick and saw it happen.

He tried to get his head on the shot and changed its direction, which I think is what caused Kocic's reaction.

[Mishko]

What if we lose every single game?

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't understand how people can quit supporting their team because of performance? Get angry at coaching, management, players yes, but giving up on the team, I don't get it. Never understood band wagon fans.

I'm not sure it's bandwagoning as such; it's more that Toronto is hungry for a winner after tolerating so many losing seasons from so many losing teams.

It's not like TFC is in the position that a similar expansion team that comes to mind, the pre-69 Mets, were. New York at the time had the relentlessly winning Yankees, and the Dodgers and Giants were also good teams before they moved. The Mets being TFC-level dregs, without even accomplishments comparable to the Canadian Championship and CL accomplishments of TFC, were still overwhelmingly embraced, and the fan patience paid off in '69. The fans grasped onto their losing reputation as something human and real, and could do so because they were in a winning city. I imagine it has the appeal of being a present-day Islanders fan or something.

Toronto hasn't had a big league winner in ages and right now, as a result, TFC are not lovable losers but just more of the same.

Anyway, I'm not giving up on this team. It's five games in. TFC is still only six points out of a playoff spot.

[ryan]

He tried to get his head on the shot and changed its direction, which I think is what caused Kocic's reaction.

That was Aceval, Dunfield missed it entirely. Or so that's what I saw.

[Jack]

That was Aceval, Dunfield missed it entirely. Or so that's what I saw.
You might be right. I could have mixed that one up.

[sashavukelich]

I was at the game today here are some pretty general thoughts.

1) Reggie Lambe's 'speed' to open up the game is pretty non-existant.
2) Plata is really undersized (no surprise there) for this league and now that he is a known quantity he may have a hard time being productive (goal wise)
3) Henry looked really Strong, as did Cann (which i was really pleased to see) - They won balls and distributed the ball cleanly
4) Terry Dunfield is so incredibly uncomfortable on the ball that he panics. Although he tackled really well today!
5) DK has another 5-10lbs to lose to get match fit. He still looks heavy and immobile. Danny Dichio ran 3x harder than kooev.

[Suds]

He tried to get his head on the shot and changed its direction, which I think is what caused Kocic's reaction.

The ball deflected off Aceval. Dunfield was late getting to his man then jumped & semi turned his back to try and block the shot and missed completely. Ball glanced off Aceval as it passed Dunfield. Kocic went after Dunfield because it was his man who got the shot off. Aceval barely had a chance to react.

Edit - I see someone posted same above.

[prizby]

At least we have a pro soccer team in Toronto!

Let's enjoy that beer at the stadium and have some fun. That's the important thing.

while its still carlsberg...

[trane]

At least we have a pro soccer team in Toronto!

Let's enjoy that beer at the stadium and have some fun. That's the important thing.

We do?

[ryan]

You might be right. I could have mixed that one up.

Just watched the clip from the game in six, I got it right. Dunfield jumped out of the way.

[ryan]

anyone else think the ref was just brutal? not from a biased TFC perspective, just in general.

[Corcai]

Being a Toronto sports "fan" I think if all of us actually whole heartedly want them to lose the rest of their games, they will disappoint us yet again by "winning"... it has happened before when the Leafs were out of the playoff picture in February before (see 2006 to 2011) and we wanted them to lose for a good draft pick position and they went on to make a strong run the rest of the season to just miss out on the playoffs and screw us out of a top 5 pick.

Thats the ticket! I hope TFC doesn't win a fucking game this season. LETS GO FIRE!.

"If all my instincts have been wrong, then the exact opposite must be right."- George Costanza

[trane]

People have said and I agree, that if we were not 0-4 this would not be a horrible game. BUT we are 0-4, now 0-5, it was a game that we need point, and we failed to get points. I like Winter, making it to the semi-final in the CL for me is a huge. It is more important then the MLS, in my eyes, BUT this is a bit much, we are an established club now. NO EXCUSES, this is not cutting it, we do not have a serious run in the next few games and we must clean house once again, something is going seriously wrong.

[trane]

Being a Toronto sports "fan" I think if all of us actually whole heartedly want them to lose the rest of their games, they will disappoint us yet again by "winning"... it has happened before when the Leafs were out of the playoff picture in February before (see 2006 to 2011) and we wanted them to lose for a good draft pick position and they went on to make a strong run the rest of the season to just miss out on the playoffs and screw us out of a top 5 pick.

Thats the ticket! I hope TFC doesn't win a fucking game this season. LETS GO FIRE!.

"If all my instincts have been wrong, then the exact opposite must be right."- George Costanza


A high draft pick will not fix what is wrong with this team. This is not the NHL.

[ensco]

What if we lose every single game?

It triggers the apology-o-matic, and a SSH price freeze.
Other than that, business as usual.

[trane]

I am thinking to myself and I am laughing, all that shit we were fed, and many believed, at the begging about how it take five years to develop a winner. ahahahahah. If I saw Mo I would pull a King DAve, anyone else in the FO too. This keeps on going they will sink this unsinkable franchise. TFC, Titanic FC.


I am starting to have such a deep hate for MLSE that I may realy start supporting another team. They are the worst ownership group in the whole fucking world, when you count bang for the buck.

[Jack]

I was at the game today here are some pretty general thoughts.

1) Reggie Lambe's 'speed' to open up the game is pretty non-existant.
2) Plata is really undersized (no surprise there) for this league and now that he is a known quantity he may have a hard time being productive (goal wise)
3) Henry looked really Strong, as did Cann (which i was really pleased to see) - They won balls and distributed the ball cleanly
4) Terry Dunfield is so incredibly uncomfortable on the ball that he panics. Although he tackled really well today!
5) DK has another 5-10lbs to lose to get match fit. He still looks heavy and immobile. Danny Dichio ran 3x harder than kooev.

I can agree on all these points. The thing with Dunfield is, he is being asked to play a role that is bigger than his talent can handle. This is precisely because the DP player who is supposed to play his position has been completely crap this season. Dunfield's role would be as a sub to said DP player, where his role would be to keep things safe and get the ball to more talented players. Unfortunately, our style of play requires distribution and vision from that position, which Dunfield can't deliver consistently. Of course, we also require that DP Captains who play in that position don't make boneheaded tackles to give away easy penalties in continental semifinals...

[Corcai]

A high draft pick will not fix what is wrong with this team. This is not the NHL.

Of course not. But like another poster on this board has mentioned, here we have the loudest and the best supporters at BMO Field and at away games for how many years now? The prissy corporate Leafs "fans" decided to boo the team in what the last 2 games of the season. Boo fucking hoo what does MLSE care, they still paid for their box seats and their $18 roast beef sandwiches, before taking the 2nd period off in the lounge.

Want to send a message? Stop with this townhall bullshit, screw the BMO Field beer boycott (most sane people do that anyway), start the fucking boos and/or attendance boycott now. MLSE has been riding the "atmosphere" at BMO Field created by the loudest supporters for way too long. Stop fucking going. Let BMO field resemble Columbus home games for half a season and let MLSE know they are fucking up something that created a brand....which is now in danger.

I appreciate the parade to Skydome for the CL game I attended, it was wonderful even though I know with my family commitments I can't be there as much anymore there are more to take up the job. But this management team thinks the support is finite which it definitely is not. This is not the Leafs in this city and the only reason BMO Field has been a hot ticket is by word of mouth and the supporter's section. That shit quiets down or disappears and TFC would just be another Marlies game in this city.

GO FIRE GO!

[AmherstNY_TFC]

Over in Section 123, two guys got ejected from the stadium for standing at the railing near the pitch and hurling abuse at Winter a la that guy from Blackburn Rovers.

[trane]

Of course not. But like another poster on this board has mentioned, here we have the loudest and the best supporters at BMO Field and at away games for how many years now? The prissy corporate Leafs "fans" decided to boo the team in what the last 2 games of the season. Boo fucking hoo what does MLSE care, they still paid for their box seats and their $18 roast beef sandwiches, before taking the 2nd period off in the lounge.

Want to send a message? Stop with this townhall bullshit, screw the BMO Field beer boycott (most sane people do that anyway), start the fucking boos and/or attendance boycott now. MLSE has been riding the "atmosphere" at BMO Field created by the loudest supporters for way too long. Stop fucking going. Let BMO field resemble Columbus home games for half a season and let MLSE know they are fucking up something that created a brand....which is now in danger.

I appreciate the parade to Skydome for the CL game I attended, it was wonderful even though I know with my family commitments I can't be there as much anymore there are more to take up the job. But this management team thinks the support is finite which it definitely is not. This is not the Leafs in this city and the only reason BMO Field has been a hot ticket is by word of mouth and the supporter's section. That shit quiets down or disappears and TFC would just be another Marlies game in this city.

GO FIRE GO!


I am all about that. TFC is going from pride in making the CL, to shamefull another piss poort start. ( Montreal in year one have more point and are now in the process of beatin FC Dallas at home-after 5 full season, 5 straight losses, FUCK THAT)

[Toronto Funk]

Got back from the game and took a few moments to digest what I experienced. A lot has already been said.

- It feels great seeing Cann in there. I was really pleased to see one particular sliding tackle that he did that showed that he had no fear in the stability of his knee - he is back.
- Reggie's as a slow as a rig and he's carrying Margo's cargo, because he does not have blazing speed at all.
- Avila played like a man fighting to get his spot back and he deserves it
- Danny K is slimming down and actually lasted 90 - so he's on the right path. While he missed his chances, at least he was in position to score. He has a scoring pedigree and will score soon.
- Doneil Henry is ready to start for the team and will soon outgrow us
- Terry Dunfield - he's got a good heart, but it's not enough
- RJ is a frustrated man out there, but gives his all.
- Torsten is coming back!
- I want to give JDG one more chance with Frings back and hopefully a fire lit under his ass after being benched.

I look forward to the following team next week:

Kocic
Eckersely - Cann - Henry - Morgan
JDG - Frings - Avila
Soolsma-Koevermans-Johnson

- Plata on at 60 mins for Soolsma
- Silva on at 75 mins for Avila
- Dunfield on for Koevermans to seak the 4-0 win! (LOL - gotta dream)



I still believe.

[trane]

^ We have what it takes to turn it around, I believe it as well, but 0-5 is 0-5, and the winning needs to start, now.

[Auzzy]

I'm TFC 'til I die, I just hope I don't live very long.

^ POTD right there.


Jack's gotta change his signature. Too depressing to be reminded that the only good streak we had going (never losing to the Impact) is now also dead and gone.

[iy12l]

We should of kept Sturgis instead of Dunfield. Anyways i cant wait to see Frings next game, and i hope JDG gets his act together. Hopefully Dunfield will go to the bench with Harden. I was also surprised to see how shit Silva was today, i hope Avila will get the start next week. And Doneil Henry was a beassst! He was putting in perfect passes together, defending well, used in speed and physicality very well too.

[Beach_Red]

^ We have what it takes to turn it around, I believe it as well, but 0-5 is 0-5, and the winning needs to start, now.

Yes, this team has some injuries to get over and and has had some bad luck. Frings will come back, Kouverman will score and the team will win a few games.

So, yes, I believe, too, that they will turn it around a little and their record at the end of the season will be very close to last year's record or the year before.

[jazzy]

Hey things could be a lot worse. We could have DeRo scoring goals and playing exciting football. But then we wouldnt have Koervermans on the team, who is sure to score at least one or two goals this season. We could have 6 losses to date, jeez. LA last year lost 5 games in the entire season, so we still have a chance to match their record, all we have to do is never lose again. And, we could have a real manager, one with mls experience, but then we wouldnt have Winter, that genius who brought us exciting Dutch attacking football, you know, where three guys run up the pitch waving at the fans to make sure they are paying attention. But we are rebuilding, thats right, rebuilding around a 37 year old defender and a guy who gets paid over $1 million per season to prove to the world that he really does have a load of skill even if no other club in the Hemisphere would hire him to clean their clubhouse.

ya why would we want a hometown boy with nothing but heart and spit to fight for his team and, try to fight the everpresent mediocrity in his hometown and receive nothing but hate from the know it all I really should be the managers who convieniantly seem to forget the MLSE FO who every night go home to their Rosedale mansions laughing at all of us....and our infighting....Toronto where to win is second nature to the 'event'.....and the 'profit'........oh ya watching Montreal showing at least spirit tieing FCDallas presently....................Why the f44k hasn't Avila been starting, he changed the game,...why wasn't JDG dumped after last season ,...why do we still have an English mgr,...?.. deciding how we play when his old team was starting to go downhill,...yup I said it...nice guy but didn't like the 'team concept' then and definitely not now!.ya he gets rookies ......so....we are the leafs after all.....we'll be a team full of Dunfields ,..all great guys who work hard........with lead foots...lol....we are F%%ked this year ,...it's that simple..........and I love soccer, so I support the team, but I am not stupid , those are the leaf fans I am
so pissed and HATE MLSE!!!!............just so pissed at those arrogant f&&ks

[Blakfish]

Why are people talking about "no luck"?! Luck has nothing to do with it. We got into scoring positions multiple times, but we do not have the quality to finish anything it seems. Johnson had more than enough chances to hit the back of the net. That header on 84 minutes - he was all on his own, had plenty of time, and it seems like he was caught in 2 minds whether to nod it towards goal or to play it back across to Koev. In the end it trickled wide, and that just shows a lack of confidence. Still hoofing it up field looking for Plata when he's being marked by a defender over 6 feet and wondering why he's not winning the ball in the air...

Toronto looked much brighter today then they had done in Montreal, but we need to get that confidence back. Hopefully the return of Frings may boost team morale, because right now it's pretty embarrassing.

[trane]

^
Beach Red,

Are you trying to depress me? [ But at this point you are right-which means this is clearly not close to being good enough].

[Corcai]

Yes, this team has some injuries to get over and and has had some bad luck. Frings will come back, Kouverman will score and the team will win a few games.

So, yes, I believe, too, that they will turn it around a little and their record at the end of the season will be very close to last year's record or the year before.

Optimist are you? I can commiserate. But I have grown older and realize that this team is shit and this will be their worst season ever. On a positive note, at least this year most of your most hopeful dreams for this team will be dashed closer to June this year rather than dragging out this on-going misery until late July-August like in every single fucking past season.

Cheers

[Parkdale]

Hey. On the bright side?
The Beach Boys are coming to town.
Fucking yeeaaahhhhh!!!!!!
KD.

One thing about music.... when it hits, you feel no pain.....

[Waggy]

What in the fuck? Whats with the Dero posts? I must have missed the long playoff runs and high scoring clubs we had when he was here. Maybe I was asleep?

[greatwhitenorf]

I don't buy TFC merchandise. I don't buy their food, drink or pay for on-site parking.

I buy my tickets and otherwise give bugger all to MLSE. Nothing will change until a winning team emerges.

If only others would send a message with their closed wallets, maybe management would take notice. But since every game is just an abso-fuckn'-lute orgy of mass consumption of overpriced beer, food and merchandise, what possible motivation would MLSE have to stop laughing and start paying attention?

[Furtado91]

so is there going to be an actual protest by not going to games? or is it all talk? im genuinely curious.

[Ajax TFC]

Until the team hires people in the front office who understand the North American style of play, we're fucked. No more Europeans who can't find jobs in their homelands. If Winter was a great coach, he'd be coaching somewhere in Holland. Vancouver got it right this year. We have our heads so far up our asses we can't see that you can't win with "total football" unless you have 11 players on the pitch that can play like Dutch professionals.
Winter did have a job coaching in Holland. At a little club called Ajax, you may have heard of it. The thing is, Dutch clubs don't have very much money, so I'm sure whatever ridiculous amount mlse offered was more than enough to convince him to leave

[Waggy]

Winter did have a job coaching in Holland. At a little club called Ajax, you may have heard of it. The thing is, Dutch clubs don't have very much money, so I'm sure whatever ridiculous amount mlse offered was more than enough to convince him to leave

sssssshhhhhhh youre ruining the narrative! Dont let facts get in the way of a perfectly good rant

[Jack]

Got back from the game and took a few moments to digest what I experienced. A lot has already been said.

- It feels great seeing Cann in there. I was really pleased to see one particular sliding tackle that he did that showed that he had no fear in the stability of his knee - he is back.
- Reggie's as a slow as a rig and he's carrying Margo's cargo, because he does not have blazing speed at all.
- Avila played like a man fighting to get his spot back and he deserves it
- Danny K is slimming down and actually lasted 90 - so he's on the right path. While he missed his chances, at least he was in position to score. He has a scoring pedigree and will score soon.
- Doneil Henry is ready to start for the team and will soon outgrow us
- Terry Dunfield - he's got a good heart, but it's not enough
- RJ is a frustrated man out there, but gives his all.
- Torsten is coming back!
- I want to give JDG one more chance with Frings back and hopefully a fire lit under his ass after being benched.

I look forward to the following team next week:

Kocic
Eckersely - Cann - Henry - Morgan
JDG - Frings - Avila
Soolsma-Koevermans-Johnson

- Plata on at 60 mins for Soolsma
- Silva on at 75 mins for Avila
- Dunfield on for Koevermans to seak the 4-0 win! (LOL - gotta dream)



I still believe.
I'd take that starting 11, but I do want to see Aceval tested at LB. Morgan does well with his athleticism and he gets forward well, but his final ball is often a wretched, horrid thing to watch. Many of his overlaps end up with the ball on opposing defenders' feet or past the touch line. Aceval isn't the strongest CB, but from what I've seen of his past videos, he was a cracking LB in Chile.





Jack's gotta change his signature. Too depressing to be reminded that the only good streak we had going (never losing to the Impact) is now also dead and gone.
:(

You're right, I do need to change it.



Yes, this team has some injuries to get over and and has had some bad luck. Frings will come back, Kouverman will score and the team will win a few games.

So, yes, I believe, too, that they will turn it around a little and their record at the end of the season will be very close to last year's record or the year before.
But that wasn't enough to get them a post-season chance, so we would basically be regressing or, at best, stagnant.



We should of kept Sturgis instead of Dunfield. Anyways i cant wait to see Frings next game, and i hope JDG gets his act together. Hopefully Dunfield will go to the bench with Harden. I was also surprised to see how shit Silva was today, i hope Avila will get the start next week. And Doneil Henry was a beassst! He was putting in perfect passes together, defending well, used in speed and physicality very well too.
Silva wasn't shit, he's just a rookie still getting his legs. He made some good plays and had some good ideas, but you could tell he hasn't gelled with the forwards very well. There were a lot of missed linkups and a lack of understanding between him and the other attackers. You seem to have a penchant for hyperbole.


so is there going to be an actual protest by not going to games? or is it all talk? im genuinely curious.
Who's talking about a protest? I've seen a couple of rants about not going to games, but that's it so far.

[Beach_Red]

I don't buy TFC merchandise. I don't buy their food, drink or pay for on-site parking.

I buy my tickets and otherwise give bugger all to MLSE. Nothing will change until a winning team emerges.

If only others would send a message with their closed wallets, maybe management would take notice. But since every game is just an abso-fuckn'-lute orgy of mass consumption of overpriced beer, food and merchandise, what possible motivation would MLSE have to stop laughing and start paying attention?

Maybe MLSE is motivated, but just not very good. This team and its three DPs has, what, the 3rd highest payroll in the league? they spend money, just not very well.

Nortel was motivated, too.

[Jack]

Maybe MLSE is motivated, but just not very good. This team and its three DPs has, what, the 3rd highest payroll in the league? they spend money, just not very well.

Nortel was motivated, too.
MLSE is very good at making money. Their sports teams are investments. If making money required actually winning, I bet things would change.

[ag futbol]

so is there going to be an actual protest by not going to games? or is it all talk? im genuinely curious.
Erm, yeah "protest".

I don't think you have to organize that one, it's already happening.

[Abou Sky]

One thing about music.... when it hits, you feel no pain.....



Word

[Beach_Red]

MLSE is very good at making money. Their sports teams are investments. If making money required actually winning, I bet things would change.

Yes, if making money required winning they wouldn't be in the sports business. Right now they probably spend more effort keeping another NHL team out of this market than they do worrying about the one they own making the playoffs. If foreign owned TV networks were allowed in Canada Bell would not have bought CTV or Astral.

Maybe if making money required winning Toronto teams would have different ownership but it's more likely in this bank-dominated (another business that severely limits foreign competition) town we just wouldn't have any teams.

We take what we can get and we hope once in a while we get lucky.

[Abou Sky]

Just watched the interview with Winter... I am amazed at the shame dripping off of him.

He knows he has screwed up, he wants to fix it and man does he hate to lose.

I still think we have to give him the season, good or bad, to see this through.

That said...

I JUST WANT TO WIN!!!

Oh well, all hopes now on the kid, Sky will have to perform damn well at his tourney next Sunday to make up for the loss to Chicago.

[greatwhitenorf]

I'm my own one-man protest machine. You can become one too. Just choose to not encourage this godawful product any longer by abstaining from the pricey peripherals they serve up.

Just say 'Today I won't buy their stuff.' And live by that. Organize your game day to provide your own food and drink. Consume it outside or smuggle it in. We do both. It's only a two-hour event. Surely you can discipline yourselves to work around such a small window of time. Are you really that feeble you can't live without another $13 beer or a $10 sandwich?

Don't buy their merchandise. Why wear the products of a shit team? Is that what you want to be identified with? Of course not. You can still be an ardent fan and support the players while not feeding the gaping corporate maw that has refused to give us a winning product.

It won't change anything overnight. But after a few months it will get noticed. After a season-long slump at the cash register it will become an issue. When there is nothing new in red being worn in the supporters sections, it will send a proper message.

We're off to our worse start ever. I blame Rachel, the dream job girl.

[Rene Kingsriver]

Winter did have a job coaching in Holland. At a little club called Ajax, you may have heard of it. The thing is, Dutch clubs don't have very much money, so I'm sure whatever ridiculous amount mlse offered was more than enough to convince him to leave

Er he left Ajax in 2009, he was unemployed for almost 2 years from what I understand with good reason from what I've seen so far

[Abou Sky]

MLSE is very good at making money. Their sports teams are investments. If making money required actually winning, I bet things would change.

The point is that MLSE is pouring money into the team, they want to win. A losing TFC means less tickets/beer/merchandise sold, television rights are not worth as much either.

TFC winning the cup would make them ASSLOADS of cash, anyone remember the Jays winning the world series? Every kid had a wardrobe of Jays gear. That is a lot of $$$

Just the playoffs is huge, each game is worth a bundle, they want to make it.

Problem is... They know jack shit about soccer, or basketball, or hockey.

Mariner has to go, let Winter take full control.

If TFC starts winning, MLSE makes a ton more money, if TFC starts to lose money, MLSE will cut and run.

[ag futbol]

"the problem" is that MLSE doesn't understand the best way to make money on TFC is to be long-term greedy, rather than short-term greedy.

You have to hook people first, before you can pull the type of shit they are trying right now. After years and years of goodwill the leafs are a bulletproof property (relatively). You simply can't put a dent in their demand, but someone had to create that first. It took generations and didn't happen over night.

You can't just take a team like TFC, where the ticket demand is so elastic and start fucking around with all aspects of the operations the way they have. They've run certain aspects of this team incredibly poorly and they're paying for it right now.

[Pookie]

No real interest in a 7th coach/manager while that person still reports to Anselmi. All failed seasons lead back to his office.

That said, I don't know how much longer Winter has. Fair or unfair, these results are not acceptable.

All the flack on Leaf fans not boycotting overlooks the fact that virtually all seats at the ACC were sold under a Personal Seat License (PSL) Many cost tens of thousands and that doesn't include the tickets themselves. Just a one time license for the right to own and sell them. The catch? If you don't renew your season tickets in any given year, MLSE gets your PSL. No one is gong to drop Leaf tickets. Walking away from your investment is silly.

Now a boycott of TFC would be easier to do. If that's your choice, do it. Not sure why folks feel the need to tell me they aren't buying beer. Does that make you part of the solution or something? Pretty sure it just means... Well pretty much nothing since you paid to get into the stadium.

Ah DeRo again. Missed all the calls for his return while we were in the CCL. His fan club must have been on vacation. Yes, local boy with heart is the headline but local boy with heart who demanded trade is the story.

Backline was good today. Cann and Aceval, who doesn't speak English, worked well off of each other. Sitting JDG all game is a telling move regarding the confidence in him. Wonder how much flexibility Mariner/Winter really have over the roster and whether a buy out was ever considered. Goes back to my point regarding Anselmi.

Having some experience in the sport would be nice for your Leader to have, wouldn't it? It sure would save money on consulting fees. I'll bet that you could have saved enough to have been able to buy out JDG's contract.

[Abou Sky]

"the problem" is that MLSE doesn't understand the best way to make money on TFC is to be long-term greedy, rather than short-term greedy.

You have to hook people first, before you can pull the type of shit they are trying right now. After years and years of goodwill the leafs are a bulletproof property (relatively). You simply can't put a dent in their demand, but someone had to create that first. It took generations and didn't happen over night.

You can't just take a team like TFC, where the ticket demand is so elastic and start fucking around with all aspects of the operations the way they have. They've run certain aspects of this team incredibly poorly and they're paying for it right now.

Ok, how has MLSE been 'greedy' with TFC?

They spend money on the team, they don't shit on the fans, in fact I feel like all my dealings with them are pretty positive so the support staff are there.

How are they greedy?

[greatwhitenorf]

I want a bastard in the back of our midfield. Neither JDG nor Done-field is one.

[OgtheDim]

I'm not sure it's bandwagoning as such; it's more that Toronto is hungry for a winner after tolerating so many losing seasons from so many losing teams. ...

Although I think your comment is accurate about some people, it points to a fundamental difference of opinion as to why and how to support a football team. Having ghosted on this board for close to 2 seasons until this week, I'd note that people have vastly different understandings of what it means to support a team. One reason why I didn't grab an id until now is, frankly, some people on here could moan for England.

For many of us, MLSE is a corporate face that is annoying and has been harmful but not a reason to stop supporting TFC. We don't necessarily care about the Leafs and Raptors. We follow TFC. We rage at Dunfield, Barret, Cunningham, Preki etc. etc. etc. We are not enamored with MLS strange permutations.

But we don't quit.

Yes, people have good reason to be upset and angry and down. Some of you spent a lot of resources mentally emotionally spiritually physically and monetarily thinking something would happen.

But, there are people on this thread and on here saying, basically, they quit and wanting people to support them in that (sorry, but I've been around internet forums for almost 30 years now, from the days of net.flame and people who quit publically are almost always looking for support and positive feedback).

In most of the world, regardless of how much time and money people had spent supporting a team, that would be met with very pointed comments saying "Well don't let the barn doors hit your backside on the way out." and those people would just take off. People will yell and scream and complain about management, players and administration and ticket prices etc etc.............but they will not quit supporting the team. And, yes, other teams do and have treated their supporters worse then TFC has. (Try supporting a non-league team taken over by a mobster who sells your ground out from under you)

There is a core of support for TFC that is broader then the 18K that came out today. I believe it was seen a the CCL game at the Dome, where the majority of people wore TFC stuff (yeah, I've read the posts in here...some of you disagree...I was up in the nosebleeds two sections over from paper airplane land.........we watched the game). That core will be around, but not always buying tickets, for various reasons. They will follow the team, in what some of you on here would call derisively a casual manner. So be it.

They will complain. But they will not quit supporting the team.

I get why people do quit. Actually, I find the amount of vetching on here more likely indicates that people thought they bought into something over the last 5 years and have come to realise that this relationship is not what they want. I get it but have little empathy. (Again because I also support a non-league team). I've seen bloody imperfection....its called my mirror every morning.

If I wanted perfection, I'd take drugs, not support a football team.

The long term future of TFC lies with a much larger core of people who will support the team through bad, and worse and the occasional good. Its not tied to being a team in a town which also has the Leafs. It may or may not even be tied to a certain approach to how that support occurs in the stand. Its certainly not tied to being a winning team.

Its tied to supporting this team.


When they score and when they win, that's enough.


At every other time, its bloody annoying.

But its still our team.

**


Oh, and yes, as a newbie to this board, I expect to get slagged for those comments. Meh......as I said I've been on the net having discussions for close to 30 years. Nothing anybody can say will be anything I havn't heard before.

[Beach_Red]

There's no point bringing it up again, but you mentioned both Anselmi and DeRo in your post - do you think it's possible that what happened with DeRo was personal for Anselmi (after all, Winter was on record as wanting to keep DeRo)? As you said, there's no point in a 7th coach/manager if he has to answer to Anselmi.

[greatwhitenorf]

They're greedy because they refuse to act like money rolls. And one of the places it rolls early, often and swiftly in a salary-capped league is under tables.

[trane]

MLSE is very good at making money. Their sports teams are investments. If making money required actually winning, I bet things would change.

Is this not what we have been talking about since year 1 1/2 or so, MLSE needs to understand that in football to make money they need to win. Too be fair I think that they have started understing this, but we need to keep the pressure on, right now in terms of results we are regressing and we have to make them pay in the pocket.

[TFC Cityboy]

General support was shit today.

How many in the stadium at the time the teams came out? 5k?

South stand was maybe 40% full at that time and at best 60% in the 2nd half.

Vocal support likely the worst I have ever experienced at a home game.

Best supporters in the league? Not a chance- no better than Columbus.

I know the team is shiting the bed, I know that MLSE is not going to win any poularity contests but for fucks sake, can we not get behind the boys in red?
Yes there are are major issues on and off the pitch and before anyone accuses me of drinking the MLSE Kool-aid many of you know me as a critical supporter as well as one who is fiercely loyal to the team.
Seriously...with support like the lads got today, we ain't gonna turn this around.

What happened to the 12th man?
What about "this is our crest and this, this is our home" or "for the boys on the field, we'll sing and chant the Legend TFC" ?

This is not aimed at RPB or any SG, this is aimed at support in general. Yes 'support"-some of you need to look it up.

Some of us have supported shit teams for years and when the good times come around it is fucking amazing for those of us who stuck at it during the tough times.

[Abou Sky]

They're greedy because they refuse to act like money rolls. And one of the places it rolls early, often and swiftly in a salary-capped league is under tables.

No personal offence meant, but that wasn't even coherent.

Can you elaborate?

[Pookie]

There's no point bringing it up again, but you mentioned both Anselmi and DeRo in your post - do you think it's possible that what happened with DeRo was personal for Anselmi (after all, Winter was on record as wanting to keep DeRo)? As you said, there's no point in a 7th coach/manager if he has to answer to Anselmi.

Absolutely.

And in fairness to DeRo it was probably personal to him as well. Anselmi was the head of the organization that supposedly lied to him. Perception may not be reality but whatever, his beef was with management and Tommy A is the leader.

Now, I like Anselmi based on my interaction with him. I found him to be a competitive and genuine individual. He probably fell into this portfolio because he was the only one with balls at MLSE willing to take the lead on a new venture. He just isn't the right leader for the organization at this point in time. We need more experience. A check and balance for our current and future manager.

I wrote for Sportsnet on the subject last week. Here is the link: http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012/04/09/toronto_fc_tfc_2012_mls_season/

[Abou Sky]

General support was shit today.

How many in the stadium at the time the teams came out? 5k?

South stand was maybe 40% full at that time and at best 60% in the 2nd half.

Vocal support likely the worst I have ever experienced at a home game.

Best supporters in the league? Not a chance- no better than Columbus.

I know the team is shiting the bed, I know that MLSE is not going to win any poularity contests but for fucks sake, can we not get behind the boys in red?
Yes there are are major issues on and off the pitch and before anyone accuses me of drinking the MLSE Kool-aid many of you know me as a critical supporter as well as one who is fiercely loyal to the team.
Seriously...with support like the lads got today, we ain't gonna turn this around.

What happened to the 12th man?
What about "this is our crest and this, this is our home" or "for the boys on the field, we'll sing and chant the Legend TFC" ?

This is not aimed at RPB or any SG, this is aimed at support in general. Yes 'support"-some of you need to look it up.

Some of us have supported shit teams for years and when the good times come around it is fucking amazing for those of us who stuck at it during the tough times.

Two way street man, I need something to cheer/sing for so the boys gotta give us something to support.

I will admit, this was probably the quietest I have been at a game, EVER!

But I had butterflies before the game, and not the good kind. I just want to win. I want to feel it. I want to fucking score!!!

Two way street...

[TFC Cityboy]

Although I think your comment is accurate about some people, it points to a fundamental difference of opinion as to why and how to support a football team. Having ghosted on this board for close to 2 seasons until this week, I'd note that people have vastly different understandings of what it means to support a team. One reason why I didn't grab an id until now is, frankly, some people on here could moan for England.

For many of us, MLSE is a corporate face that is annoying and has been harmful but not a reason to stop supporting TFC. We don't necessarily care about the Leafs and Raptors. We follow TFC. We rage at Dunfield, Barret, Cunningham, Preki etc. etc. etc. We are not enamored with MLS strange permutations.

But we don't quit.

Yes, people have good reason to be upset and angry and down. Some of you spent a lot of resources mentally emotionally spiritually physically and monetarily thinking something would happen.

But, there are people on this thread and on here saying, basically, they quit and wanting people to support them in that (sorry, but I've been around internet forums for almost 30 years now, from the days of net.flame and people who quit publically are almost always looking for support and positive feedback).

In most of the world, regardless of how much time and money people had spent supporting a team, that would be met with very pointed comments saying "Well don't let the barn doors hit your backside on the way out." and those people would just take off. People will yell and scream and complain about management, players and administration and ticket prices etc etc.............but they will not quit supporting the team. And, yes, other teams do and have treated their supporters worse then TFC has. (Try supporting a non-league team taken over by a mobster who sells your ground out from under you)

There is a core of support for TFC that is broader then the 18K that came out today. I believe it was seen a the CCL game at the Dome, where the majority of people wore TFC stuff (yeah, I've read the posts in here...some of you disagree...I was up in the nosebleeds two sections over from paper airplane land.........we watched the game). That core will be around, but not always buying tickets, for various reasons. They will follow the team, in what some of you on here would call derisively a casual manner. So be it.

They will complain. But they will not quit supporting the team.

I get why people do quit. Actually, I find the amount of vetching on here more likely indicates that people thought they bought into something over the last 5 years and have come to realise that this relationship is not what they want. I get it but have little empathy. (Again because I also support a non-league team). I've seen bloody imperfection....its called my mirror every morning.

If I wanted perfection, I'd take drugs, not support a football team.

The long term future of TFC lies with a much larger core of people who will support the team through bad, and worse and the occasional good. Its not tied to being a team in a town which also has the Leafs. It may or may not even be tied to a certain approach to how that support occurs in the stand. Its certainly not tied to being a winning team.

Its tied to supporting this team.


When they score and when they win, that's enough.


At every other time, its bloody annoying.

But its still our team.

**


Oh, and yes, as a newbie to this board, I expect to get slagged for those comments. Meh......as I said I've been on the net having discussions for close to 30 years. Nothing anybody can say will be anything I havn't heard before.

very eloquently put,Sir....brace yourself
:)

[Beach_Red]

Absolutely.

And in fairness to DeRo it was probably personal to him as well. Anselmi was the head of the organization that supposedly lied to him. Perception may not be reality but whatever, his beef was with management and Tommy A is the leader.

Now, I like Anselmi based on my interaction with him. I found him to be a competitive and genuine individual. He probably fell into this portfolio because he was the only one with balls at MLSE willing to take the lead on a new venture. He just isn't the right leader for the organization at this point in time. We need more experience. A check and balance for our current and future manager.

I wrote for Sportsnet on the subject last week. Here is the link: http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012/04/09/toronto_fc_tfc_2012_mls_season/

Didn't know that was you, I read it last week, good piece. As nice a guy as Tom is, I think this is an organization with a bad case of tall poppy syndrome - they don't want any player to become bigger than the team because that will upset the power dynamic. A hometown boy is good for marketing, but not one who speaks his mind.

[TFC Cityboy]

Two way street man, I need something to cheer/sing for so the boys gotta give us something to support.

I will admit, this was probably the quietest I have been at a game, EVER!

But I had butterflies before the game, and not the good kind. I just want to win. I want to feel it. I want to fucking score!!!

Two way street...


fair enough and I was quieter than usual too, but mostly due to the fact that the South stand resembled sections like 219 or 227 interms of occupancy.

I don't understand why people buy STs and don't show up to support the team. It's not like the Jays where you have 81 games...

For me, a ST means commitment, all dates put on the calendar and barring a wedding, funeral or my son's rep tournaments, I am there, at my seat before the lads walk onto the pitch.

I want to cheer a goal as much as you, and at least you were there...I reckon 15k max today-pathetic.

[Soccerpro]

"we had a lot of chances, unlucky etc etc" - Postgame comments from Aaron Winter.

Winter said "bad luck" more than Allen Iverson said "practice" in his post game comments. I predicted what he said in the above post when the whistle blew.

What makes me mad is when Winter in the post game interview responded to the comment "Aaron it's got to be more than just bad luck?" He just kept going on about bad luck and dismissing anything else. This is what makes me lose my respect for this man, grow some testicles and accept responsibility for a crappy job all around with this squad instead of always just saying "bad luck".

[OgtheDim]

very eloquently put,Sir....brace yourself
:)

Oh tah for that..........you know I only write this stuff so people will feel good about me...........deep down everybody just wants a :grouphug:

[/sarcasm]

I've done flame wars on net.(insert very pointed personal issues) and played tether troll with nutbars. People will slag me I know but..........its a view point that is out there and, as you said, there are people on here who really got no clue as to what the word supporter means.

[Roogsy]

Winter said "bad luck" more than Allen Iverson said "practice" in his post game comments. I predicted what he said in the above post when the whistle blew.

What makes me mad is when Winter in the post game interview responded to the comment "Aaron it's got to be more than just bad luck?" He just kept going on about bad luck and dismissing anything else. This is what makes me lose my respect for this man, grow some testicles and accept responsibility for a crappy job all around with this squad instead of always just saying "bad luck".

So when they don't score it's bad luck but if & when they do, it will be his brilliance. Got it.

I can't believe people buy this guy's bullshit.

[Yeoman]

Actually the REAL bright side is that Comic Con is in town!

f that
you see the postage stamp show is on right now?!?

[Abou Sky]

So when they don't score it's bad luck but if & when they do, it will be his brilliance. Got it.

I can't believe people buy this guy's bullshit.

TBH I said to my son in the car on the way home 'that was a crapload of hard luck'

Winter was right, it was a lot of poor luck.

I can still be pissed off, but we DID play better and we DID deserve to win.

[OgtheDim]

... He just kept going on about bad luck and dismissing anything else. This is what makes me lose my respect for this man, grow some testicles and accept responsibility for a crappy job all around with this squad instead of always just saying "bad luck".

The last manager who did that publicly left Chelsea about 2 weeks later. Managers at all levels don't admit mistakes until they are either forced to by management or writing a book.

[trane]

What exaclty should we support through thick and thin, 5 years of mostly SHITE. If AC Milan was playing as shit as TFC has for 5 years, what the fuck do you think would happen at the stadium?????? The stands would be empty but for the Ultras who would be letting the players and FO know their discontent loudley and clealry at every turn. Support through thick and thin. Supporters demand performance, pride and effort, if you cannot bring that the supporters demand that you take the shirt off, if this continues for another fucking seaons of shit, then supporters should not support, but demand that the whole fucking FO resing, and everyone on the team take their shirt off, and they cannot stop calling themslves after our city. They can call themsleve MLSE FC and you can go right ahead and support them for 50 years of shit.

We have over five years, of very little fuckign progress and excuse after escuse from the FA and its supporters. I do not support the FA, I do not support owenership. I support Toronto's football team. Unfortunately I only have one fucking choice.

[Suds]

....


Oh, and yes, as a newbie to this board, I expect to get slagged for those comments. Meh......as I said I've been on the net having discussions for close to 30 years. Nothing anybody can say will be anything I havn't heard before.


30 years?? Holy shit everyone, Al Gore joined the boards!! (a little internet humour for those in the know g:D)

[ensco]

Didn't know that was you, I read it last week, good piece. As nice a guy as Tom is, I think this is an organization with a bad case of tall poppy syndrome - they don't want any player to become bigger than the team because that will upset the power dynamic. A hometown boy is good for marketing, but not one who speaks his mind.

Where is all this stuff about what a nice guy Anselmi is, coming from?

He's a good interview. Great. But what does he actually do? Do a google search - Anselmi spends the vast majority of his time endlessly cloaking himself in the flag, and promoting marketing associations with the Canadian Armed Forces. Best I can tell, his motives for doing so are not altruism, but distraction. Also it's damn clever - pointing this out makes you seem ungrateful for the troops

Is it a coincidence that this team, our team, at every turn, when faced a choice, screws the player (I'm talking about a lot more than Dero - Cann, Nana, a lot of it is hearsay, sure, but it's hearsay that a lot of people on here have heard).

Somebody posted an interesting hypothesis in the Montreal postgame thread a couple of days ago that I have long agreed with- the players don't really want to be here. This is the Siberia of MLS. If there's even a grain of truth to this, it is shocking, given the fan support, on has to reflect badly on Anselmi's character.

People have cut the guy too much slack because he says the right things, when, best we can tell, he doesn't do the right things.

[Roogsy]

TBH I said to my son in the car on the way home 'that was a crapload of hard luck'

Winter was right, it was a lot of poor luck.

I can still be pissed off, but we DID play better and we DID deserve to win.

The team played like it gave a shit for one third of the game.

The team is 0 for 5.

He's been working with the core of this team for between 10 and 14 months.

None of that can reasonably be attributed to bad luck.

Buying his excuses is just being credulous.





And no we did not deserve to win. At best, a draw would have been generous but understandable.

[trane]

30 years?? Holy shit everyone, Al Gore joined the boards!! (a little internet humour for those in the know g:D)

I was going to comment on that. 30 years ago, I was in grade 7 in the computer lab using an Apple desktop. I do not remember anything resembling the interwebs.

[Suds]

I was going to comment on that. 30 years ago, I was in grade 7 in the computer lad using an Apple desktop I do not remember anythign resembling the interwebs.

The internet protocol we know has been around that long. There were earlier versions. I was more poking fun at the joke that Al Gore invented the internet by saying someone who was there at the beginning is .. old. Like I'm getting. :)

<Back on Topic>

We're shit right now and every team knows it.

[trane]

At this point does it realy matter if we deserved to win or not? We do not get some serious points soon another season is down the drain. And if it happens, I will tell you know we deserve it. Because we, or at least enough of us, continue to support this shit.

[Ajax TFC]

Er he left Ajax in 2009, he was unemployed for almost 2 years from what I understand with good reason from what I've seen so far
er, no he left his job as assistant coach mid last season to come here. Don't trust everything Wikipedia says.

[trane]

The internet protocol we know has been around that long. There were earlier versions. I was more poking fun at the joke that Al Gore invented the internet by saying someone who was there at the beginning is .. old. Like I'm getting. :)

<Back on Topic>

We're shit right now and every team knows it.

The protocol was around, but it was not used by most people, until what the early 90's. He commented that he has been on forums like this for 30 years. If he is my age or younger I find it hard to believe that he was using the internet at that time,

[Roogsy]

Where is all this stuff about what a nice guy Anselmi is, coming from?

He's a good interview. Great. But what does he actually do? Do a google search - Anselmi spends the vast majority of his time endlessly cloaking himself in the flag, and promoting marketing associations with the Canadian Armed Forces. Best I can tell, his motives for doing so are not altruism, but distraction. Also it's damn clever - pointing this out makes you seem ungrateful for the troops

Is it a coincidence that this team, our team, at every turn, when faced a choice, screws the player (I'm talking about a lot more than Dero - Cann, Nana, a lot of it is hearsay, sure, but it's hearsay that a lot of people on here have heard).

Somebody posted an interesting hypothesis in the Montreal postgame thread a couple of days ago that I have long agreed with- the players don't really want to be here. This is the Siberia of MLS. If there's even a grain of truth to this, it is shocking, given the fan support, on has to reflect badly on Anselmi's character.

People have cut the guy too much slack because he says the right things, when, best we can tell, he doesn't do the right things.

Bang on.

The reason why people get away with things whether they be scammers or criminals is not because they do the right things but because they are smooth talkers...and people buy into it.

[ensco]

First time I ever saw one of these sites was penaltybox.ca (now tmlfans.ca) in 1998.

[Beach_Red]

First time I ever saw one of these sites was penaltybox.ca (now tmlfans.ca) in 1998.

But that probably grew out of a BBS....

[Waggy]

I dunno how anyone could reasonably have expected better for TFC today. Going up head to head against the Jays was a death sentence. Whose bright idea was that anyways? After 5 years of what we've been through, the fact that the team hasn't folded is a testiment to the support. If any, ANY, other MLS franchise went through the level of suckitudes that we've visited (is there a 'bad' MLS record that we don't hold? Fewest goals for, longest goaless drought, worst start to the season (twice), longest playoff drought (2 years ago?), goals against, most players in a season, am I missing any?) they'd be dead. We are upset that there were 5 or 6000 empty seats the week after two absolutely crushing defeats? When there was a Jays game at the same time not 3km away? This hasn't been said for a while (that I've seen anyways), but *deep breath*

THIS ISN'T THE FUCKING EPL. THIS ISN'T SERIE A. WE AREN'T INTER MILAN. WE AREN'T LIVERPOOL.

We do NOT have almost 100 years of history
We do NOT have a tradition of winning (or of anything really. other than losing)
We do NOT have unlimited cash to spend on players
We are IN a capped league that REQUIRES players to be cut sometimes (and underpaid)
That capped league DOES mean a player isn't as good as his performance on the pitch, but performance per dollar
We AREN'T big enough in the soccer world to attract the top foreign talent (to play or coach)
We AREN'T successful enough in north america to attract the top NA talent.


We ARE the vanguard of north american soccer
We DO fill the stands week after week for shitty game after shitty game
We DO still have hope as a fanbase (somehow)
We DO have the biggest/best academy program in the continent, in a market rich with talent
We DO have a capped league with parity, where there is such a fine line between winning and losing that it can come down to a game of 'who makes the least costly mistake?', or a bit of luck
We CAN make trades
We CAN cut/buy out players
We HAVE among the highest payrolls in the league
We WILL bring in players if we can get them, cost be damned (coaches too)


NO MATTER WHAT, NO MATTER WHO, NO MATTER ANYTHING, NEITHER TFC NOR ANY OTHER CLUB WILL EVER DOMINATE MLS. There will NEVER be a Boca Jrs, or a Bayern Munich, or any other dominant club in this league. Never. The entire system is in place SPECIFICALLY to prevent that kind of successful club. If a team is heading down that road, the rules will change to prevent it. If that is what you are waiting/hoping/expecting TFC to become, you're watching the wrong league.

We've had a shit 5 games.

We've had a shit 5 years.

Next week we get one of the best players in MLS back. And the guy who is more valuable to our club than any other player is to theirs in this league.

We are only 6 points out of the playoffs. And again, its FIVE GAMES INTO THE SEASON.



I'm pissed too, but jesus. People are jumping off the deep end here. This isn't NEARLY as bad as Vancouver (before the MTL miracle), or NY. We have a team, we have a system, we have players, we have coaches, we have time, and we still have a summer transfer window (and an expiring waste of a DP spot to move). My issue right now isn't that the club is fucked on the pitch, it's that it might be fucked off the pitch. For the first time since before the first game, I feel general apathy around the team. As a huge Jays fan as well as TFC, I had to decide which to watch. What did I decide before the game? I'd watch TFC until Chivas scored, then switch to the Jays. That was my pregame plan. I expected us to lose, and concede an early goal. I didn't end up switching yet (that didn't come until midway in the 2nd half), but just the fact that someone as generally optimistic as I am, and as into TFC as I am, would expect us to lose and not care about it, plus the empty seats... the casual fan is long gone. And most of the hardcores who still go (everyone outside the bunker) are completely numbed to the game. There aren't even really boo's anymore for poor play. I can't believe ANY supporter of TFC would criticize ANYONE who paid money to watch this team today. Who dragged their asses downtown through traffic problems, TTC shutdowns, a Jays game, and a late Sat aft start. To watch TFC set yet another MLS record for futility. And people are complaining about a lack of passion? Saying they arent real supporters? Disgusting.

[ArmenJBX]

I've never seen the room that low, and you can tell from the videos.

If there's ever a time the team needs support, it's now. I don't care what your allegiances are towards the coach, or the results, or anything - it would be a good idea to help them out here with a tifo or something.

[Rene Kingsriver]

er, no he left his job as assistant coach mid last season to come here. Don't trust everything Wikipedia says.

I stand corrected, on the unemployed part then, still think he's been pretty crap so far though regardless of who he's worked for in the past

[Auzzy]

Thanks Jack, 6 out of 6 facepalms, now that's something I can get behind.... ;)

[jloome]

Yes, this team has some injuries to get over and and has had some bad luck. Frings will come back, Kouverman will score and the team will win a few games.

So, yes, I believe, too, that they will turn it around a little and their record at the end of the season will be very close to last year's record or the year before.

I saw enough today, particularly from Cann and Henry, to believe we can win some games and maybe even still make the playoffs. I think Dunfield is done, and Jr. Burgos should get a shot. Avila looked really good today, as well.

Pretty snakebit right now, though.

[BakaGaijin]

General support was shit today.

How many in the stadium at the time the teams came out? 5k?

South stand was maybe 40% full at that time and at best 60% in the 2nd half.

Vocal support likely the worst I have ever experienced at a home game.

Best supporters in the league? Not a chance- no better than Columbus.

I know the team is shiting the bed, I know that MLSE is not going to win any poularity contests but for fucks sake, can we not get behind the boys in red?
Yes there are are major issues on and off the pitch and before anyone accuses me of drinking the MLSE Kool-aid many of you know me as a critical supporter as well as one who is fiercely loyal to the team.
Seriously...with support like the lads got today, we ain't gonna turn this around.

What happened to the 12th man?
What about "this is our crest and this, this is our home" or "for the boys on the field, we'll sing and chant the Legend TFC" ?

This is not aimed at RPB or any SG, this is aimed at support in general. Yes 'support"-some of you need to look it up.

Some of us have supported shit teams for years and when the good times come around it is fucking amazing for those of us who stuck at it during the tough times.

I hate to break it to you......but what the fans do in the stands has little to no impact on the outcome of the match.

[Ajax TFC]

I stand corrected, on the unemployed part then, still think he's been pretty crap so far though regardless of who he's worked for in the past
I can accept people such as yourself calling him a bad coach for the way they've seen his team play (whether or not I agree, I can still respect their argument). But I couldn't accept someone making up facts (such as no one in Holland being willing to give him a job coaching, when he was the assistant at the biggest club) to support their argument

[trane]

I saw enough today, particularly from Cann and Henry, to believe we can win some games and maybe even still make the playoffs. I think Dunfield is done, and Jr. Burgos should get a shot. Avila looked really good today, as well.

Pretty snakebit right now, though.

Agreed. But if we do not get some points soon, the realisitc changes of that happening will disapear.

The players must be aware of that and yet there seems to be little real urgency. With each loss the next game becomes ever more importatn.

[Nodoubtguy]

Yes, we have 0pts. Yes, the start of the season has been bad.....but give up on MY TEAM? thats crazy talk.

Someone said on Twitter something along the line of "yeah we're 0-5, but were also just 6pts out of the playoffs with 29 games left". Cann and Henry looked to be a decent pair, Frings back soon, a few wins and this could be behind us very quickly.

[TFC USA]

If you gave up on this sad sack I don't blame you.

There comes a time where cheering for a losing product is bullshit. Wasting money on merchandising and beer to go watch the POS that we see every week is tiresome.

Toronto has had one legit chance at the playoffs and it ended 5-0 to awful New York.

We're the laughing stock of MLS. The laughing stock of North American soccer. And I'm sick and tired of mediocrity every year.

Frings and Cann and everyone healthy just means we're mediocre, not terrible.

Bold prediction, we won't even win the NCC. And that my friends is going to be curtains for Winter.

[los sonadores]

They played the better game... and lost. I agree with DK that they're probably playing better than in the second half last year. All this general 'I'm abandoning the team' sounds like bullshit to me... are you guys TFC supporters or what? I don't get what the ugly attitude gains anybody. It's too early for yet another manager, etc., etc. so why not offer some support?

[__wowza]

two words: RALLY CAP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_cap).
im wearing my jersey inside out next game.

[boozilla]

The Rogers Centre game (up to the 89th) was how I wish professional football in Toronto would be.
Seems so long ago.

[Cashcleaner]

We lost that game today. We were able to move the ball all the way to the 18 yard box, but then couldn't do anything once we were there. At the end of the day, the small mistakes are what killed us.

Things like heading the ball back into the box instead of bringing it down and shooting on net; Beating a guy on the break, but then pulling the ball back inside to try and re-deke the defender; holding on to the ball too long and making a pass 2 seconds after it should have initially been made; shooting at the goalie instead of away from him.

The players we have are making bad decisions all over the pitch. period.

I agree. And obviously most would people here would agree those sort of bad decisions have been happening well before today's game. They are small mistakes in many regards, but when you add them all up over the span of 5 league matches you can plainly see that this is a club with serious problems on the pitch and most likely in the locker rooms. I think Winter has lost the team. And I think the players just don't give a shit anymore.


To go a couple of pages back, I thought the attendance was pretty good in terms of the streak the team's on and the weather. I'd like to see Henry and Avila start next game. I figure Winter's got two or three more games before his position becomes untenable.

I guess you can argue that considering the previous results and weather we had a relatively decent crowd. I never heard the attendance numbers announced on TV, but it definitely looked less than 15,000. There were A LOT of empty seats at BMO Field today. As for Winter, I actually think today may have been his last chance to turn things around. I'm not suggesting he'll be packing his bags tomorrow (though honestly, it wouldn't surprise me), but I think the club brass is most likely scanning through their lists of potential replacments for him now and getting ready to dial. Winter is on very thin ice and EVERYONE in the organization - especially him - know it.


I was at the game today here are some pretty general thoughts.

1) Reggie Lambe's 'speed' to open up the game is pretty non-existant.
2) Plata is really undersized (no surprise there) for this league and now that he is a known quantity he may have a hard time being productive (goal wise)
3) Henry looked really Strong, as did Cann (which i was really pleased to see) - They won balls and distributed the ball cleanly
4) Terry Dunfield is so incredibly uncomfortable on the ball that he panics. Although he tackled really well today!
5) DK has another 5-10lbs to lose to get match fit. He still looks heavy and immobile. Danny Dichio ran 3x harder than kooev.

1) Agreed. Not much to add to this.
2) Agreed. His lack of presence and maneuverability have become a severe liability.
3) Yeah, I think Cann really looked good and really wanted to contribute. Makes sense given how long he's been out for.
4) Yep.
5) I really don't want to get into anything too specific like the optimal weight he should be at, but it's hard to deny he's simply not in the sort of shape we need him to be and he's far too slow for what has been invested in him. Again, like so many other players, I think a great deal of this could be attributed to a lack of morale.


People have said and I agree, that if we were not 0-4 this would not be a horrible game. BUT we are 0-4, now 0-5, it was a game that we need point, and we failed to get points. I like Winter, making it to the semi-final in the CL for me is a huge. It is more important then the MLS, in my eyes, BUT this is a bit much, we are an established club now. NO EXCUSES, this is not cutting it, we do not have a serious run in the next few games and we must clean house once again, something is going seriously wrong.

You're absolutely right. We need to stop giving the club a pass on league competition bcause we beat the odds in the CCL. Our success against LA over a month ago shouldn't be used to downplay the crisis this club is facing.


I am thinking to myself and I am laughing, all that shit we were fed, and many believed, at the begging about how it take five years to develop a winner. ahahahahah. If I saw Mo I would pull a King DAve, anyone else in the FO too. This keeps on going they will sink this unsinkable franchise. TFC, Titanic FC.

I am starting to have such a deep hate for MLSE that I may realy start supporting another team. They are the worst ownership group in the whole fucking world, when you count bang for the buck.

No club in this league has ever required 5 years to build a competitive team. It was a line used over and over again by Tom A, Mo, and unfortunately quite a few TFC fans and supporters. It goes to show that when a lie is told enough times, people will eventually believe in it.


Maybe MLSE is motivated, but just not very good. This team and its three DPs has, what, the 3rd highest payroll in the league? they spend money, just not very well.

Nortel was motivated, too.

That's it exactly. MLSE is most definitely not as cheap as some might think. They don't like to take a lot of risks with their cash, that's for sure, but let's remember that they spend up to the cap of their team's respective leagues. Admittedly, with TFC it took a while to pick up any DPs, but now that we have 3, we can't really use the "cheapness" argument to explain our current state. Heck, look at how much money they are sinking into the pratice facility at Downview Park. But here's the thing, if we don't have a spending issue but still have a crappy-ass team, then what is the reason? Ultimately, it's a question of competence.


The team played like it gave a shit for one third of the game.

The team is 0 for 5.

He's been working with the core of this team for between 10 and 14 months.

None of that can reasonably be attributed to bad luck.

Buying his excuses is just being credulous.

And no we did not deserve to win. At best, a draw would have been generous but understandable.

There's no other way around it. We got outplayed in almost every respect. Most importantly, we looked awfully slow (with a few exceptions) and hesitant. Again, I think quite a few players have already thrown in the towel.


If you gave up on this sad sack I don't blame you.

There comes a time where cheering for a losing product is bullshit. Wasting money on merchandising and beer to go watch the POS that we see every week is tiresome.

Toronto has had one legit chance at the playoffs and it ended 5-0 to awful New York.

We're the laughing stock of MLS. The laughing stock of North American soccer. And I'm sick and tired of mediocrity every year.

Frings and Cann and everyone healthy just means we're mediocre, not terrible.

Bold prediction, we won't even win the NCC. And that my friends is going to be curtains for Winter.

I can handle losing if we still put up a fight and bust our asses, but you're right. We are becoming an embarrasment. I mean fucking Vancouver has 8 points this season. Even Montreal has only one win this season - and it was from a match against us! I feel like I can barely look people in the eyes when I'm at the bar watching us play. I know that the team can't carry on this way and I know we'll eventually find our form, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

[Belfast_Boy]

wow that was shit once again.

can we start to sing some songs that reflect our feelings on this crap? the Kool aid ain't going down so well.

[Pookie]

Where is all this stuff about what a nice guy Anselmi is, coming from?

He's a good interview. Great. But what does he actually do? Do a google search - Anselmi spends the vast majority of his time endlessly cloaking himself in the flag, and promoting marketing associations with the Canadian Armed Forces. Best I can tell, his motives for doing so are not altruism, but distraction. Also it's damn clever - pointing this out makes you seem ungrateful for the troops

Is it a coincidence that this team, our team, at every turn, when faced a choice, screws the player (I'm talking about a lot more than Dero - Cann, Nana, a lot of it is hearsay, sure, but it's hearsay that a lot of people on here have heard).

Somebody posted an interesting hypothesis in the Montreal postgame thread a couple of days ago that I have long agreed with- the players don't really want to be here. This is the Siberia of MLS. If there's even a grain of truth to this, it is shocking, given the fan support, on has to reflect badly on Anselmi's character.

People have cut the guy too much slack because he says the right things, when, best we can tell, he doesn't do the right things.

I based my "genuine and competitive individual" comment as a result of a personal interaction that I had with him. Just my opinion of course but I couldn't write that he was unresponsive , arrogant and uncaring as that would not be accurate based on my experience.

As for cutting him slack, I wrote that he needs to step down and that he is not the right individual to lead this organization. Not sure where there is any slack in that line.

[Yeoman]

two words: RALLY CAP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_cap).
im wearing my jersey inside out next game.

why the hell didn't anyone want to join in?!? it helps the jays apparently!

[Parkdale]

welcome aboard OgtheDim (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/member.php?41777-OgtheDim)

I'm always happy to see new posters who contribute in paragraphs, not just one line "yeah, we sux" comments.

[trane]

I will tell you what giving up on your club is, accepting sub par performances year after year, and saying we love you anyway, it is ok, it is about having fun, winning is secondary.

I will not give up on a dream of this city haveing a great club represent it. You go right ahead and accept this crap, excuse it, sing MLSE till I die. But this management team this ownership does not deserve my support as it is shaming this city in the sport I love, and they need to either step up, or get out. They are incapable of bringing a winnign product, they are incapable of acctually striving for achieve and realtive greatness, (which is what every club in the world does).

If you are happy supporting a team, just so that you can say I support a team. good for you. I acctually give a shit about my sport and my city, and MLSE and has made a laughing stock out of the club that represents my city in my sport, and I am pissed.

[ensco]

I based my "genuine and competitive individual" comment as a result of a personal interaction that I had with him. Just my opinion of course but I couldn't write that he was unresponsive , arrogant and uncaring as that would not be accurate based on my experience.

As for cutting him slack, I wrote that he needs to step down and that he is not the right individual to lead this organization. Not sure where there is any slack in that line.

Understood.

I have had one personal experience, and it wasn't one that left me feeling great about the guy.

[Abou Sky]

I hate to break it to you......but what the fans do in the stands has little to no impact on the outcome of the match.

(sarcasm) How dare you question the 12th man!?! (/sarcasm )

Studies suggest that there IS an advantage given, mostly because of the effect on the ref and any distractions that can be made at the opposition.

'moral support' has not proven to make a difference in any study.

So if we want to make a real difference best bet is to fuck with the opposition keeper, pictures of his mother/sister would work, but just yellin out his name works too.

Not 'classy' but likely effective.

[Abou Sky]

two words: RALLY CAP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_cap).
im wearing my jersey inside out next game.

Sounds like a plan, can't hurt right?

Can you remind us next week?

[DOMIN8R]

So many posts. So few about the game.

Chivas defense showed up yesterday and their team looked well organized. Our D looked pretty good too. Nice to see, for a change.

It's frustrating to see so many small mistakes by Ecks, Plata, Terry, Lambe, etc. In the end, Chivas played better and deserved the win.

I don't understand how we can seriously consider changing the coaching staff. Again? Really? The three amigos need 3 years. Learn from other MLS teams and let the paint dry. This isn't hockey. IMO football needs time and consistency to be effective. There a few exceptions - but they are exceptions. Like or not we must stay the course for another year. There is no reasonable alternative.

So many games recently could have gone either way. But loosing sucks and the attendance drop is a testament to that (along with the weather).

[dow117]

I used to feel quite angry after a home loss.... no so much now ... kinda numb with a "oh well, who cares" Not a good sign that I will be attending many more matches. Lost the passion after watching this scrappy , bad tempered game. Total football !!! my ass.
Trouble is , I got 2 sets of season tix that nobody wants....

[boban]

Since the sacking of Mo, what specifically have MLSE done wrong?
Owned it!

[Yeoman]

Owned it!

quoted for truth
if i buy shares into rogers, does that make me a minority owner of MLSE and i can ask for the removal of all front office (keep the coaches)

[Furtado91]

quoted for truth
if i buy shares into rogers, does that make me a minority owner of MLSE and i can ask for the removal of all front office (keep the coaches)

if it works that way, why don't we all get together and buy a few shares. That way we can make an impact on the team(hopefully). just a thought.

[boban]

The Leafs havent won since 67, the Raps old ownership was WAY way worse than MLSE has been and as bad as TFC are, 6 years in they exist and average over 20k a game over their lifespan which really, is shocking. MLSE is bad, there is far far far far worse out there though. Donald Sterling, the racist, tyranical, hooker loving, hooker beating, player berating cheapest SOB to ever own a pro sports team could win a title this year. Luck goes a long way

Edit: Also under MLSE stewardship, the Leafs went to 2 conference finals. The Raps COULD have had a dynasty if Tmac didn't leave (according to Kobe, Vince and Oakley). Both have won divisions. Both have been high seeds in the playoffs
They actually went to 4.
But don't compare others to MLSE. When MLSE moved to Bay street they saw the true coporate dollar and the windfalls ($$) that could be made.
That's why they didn't give a shit about signing TMac, getting support for Sundin, etc. If that did happen Raptors would have won a couple of playoff rounds in thier life, and the Leafs, dare I say it, might have won a Cup. But sure profits are more important than risk. Trust me, in regards to the sporting element, MLSE is really that bad.

[Chris Wren]

All the talk about ho horrible MLSE is to everyone who has ever come into contact with them (or 3 players who wanted their contracts renegotiated) means nothing. There are players who want to be here (Eckersley) and they're the ones shitting the bed on a regular basis. Winter needs to get more out of the squad he's assembled. MLSE has given the keys to Winter, and he's driving. It's up to Winter to steer us in the right direction. Anyone critical of the support should be happy there's anyone there, nevermind singing and dancing.

[boban]

Luck is generally a by product of effort. You have to put yourself in a position to get lucky. Outside of the last 10 minutes of the game, when did we deserve any luck today? And trying for 1/9th of a game isn't NEARLY the sort of effort to support. I don't mind TFC losing if we're out there working hard, trying to play properly and things don't go our way. The game today was not such a situation
How much effort did Chivas put it. They had 2 shots in the 1st half and put one in and disappeared in the 2nd.
The addage that you need to play the full time is nice, but in a game where 1 teams comes out on top doesn't necessarilly mean they both played the full 90.
Some time 1 team just comes on top.

[boban]

Keep the faith boys and girls, and for those ready to give up on the team you claim to support, go right ahead...those who remain will take much more pleasure when this turns around as we are loyal supporters.
hmmm.. You know something about MLSE selling that we don't know about?

[TFC Cityboy]

hmmm.. You know something about MLSE selling that we don't know about?

It will turn around , and soon. We badly missed Soolsma yesterday, thee defence looked so much better with Adrian and Doneil anchoring it, TF returns next week (to midfield I trust) and it looks like the management team has finally clued in to the lack of value we get from JDG.

I'm far from happy with the start, but I also know what happens if MLSE panics, fires Winter and BDK and we start all over again. Give them to the end of the season and if we miss the playoffs, then make that call there based on progress made/not made.

It will turn round and I will take great pleasure in being there to see it and saying "told you so" to all those on here ready to rip it all up again.

[boban]

Ok, how has MLSE been 'greedy' with TFC?

They spend money on the team, they don't shit on the fans, in fact I feel like all my dealings with them are pretty positive so the support staff are there.

How are they greedy?
Are you for real?
What about all the price gouging when the team doesn't make the playoffs. We're still one of the highest prices in the eague.
Or what about thelck of spending on DP. Yeah they spend on the $1 mil DP but other teams are spending $5 mil +.

[Furtado91]

It will turn around , and soon. We badly missed Soolsma yesterday, thee defence looked so much better with Adrian and Doneil anchoring it, TF returns next week (to midfield I trust) and it looks like the management team has finally clued in to the lack of value we get from JDG.

I'm far from happy with the start, but I also know what happens if MLSE panics, fires Winter and BDK and we start all over again. Give them to the end of the season and if we miss the playoffs, then make that call there based on progress made/not made.

It will turn round and I will take great pleasure in being there to see it and saying "told you so" to all those on here ready to rip it all up again.

No offense bud, but you will be waiting a long time, if nothing changes in the upper management. I do believe in Winter as he seems to be half decent in terms of coaching, but we need better people in regards to finding talent. If we do not have good scouting we will always find sub-par players and continue to overpay them. that's my .02 cents in all this. But honestly, Something has to be said, as humans we can only take so much before we start to retaliate and now it seems to be boiling as we have yet to win a game this season, and our player performances have not be greatest besides a select few. I love the team and I am proud to wear the crest, but even that is hard to feel sometimes.

[billyfly]

wow that was shit once again.

can we start to sing some songs that reflect our feelings on this crap? the Kool aid ain't going down so well.


The songs would have to be organic. Isnt that what people wanted ? Lol

[billyfly]

I am starting not to care. There have been times when I said in fury that I wasn't going to care anymore and F this team etc. I always came back or watched out of the corner of my eye against the promises I had sworn not a few moments before.

This time it's different.

Apathy is an ugly thing.

[narduch]

Winter did have a job coaching in Holland. At a little club called Ajax, you may have heard of it. The thing is, Dutch clubs don't have very much money, so I'm sure whatever ridiculous amount mlse offered was more than enough to convince him to leave

This is not true. Winter was unemployed when he was hired by TFC. He was fired the previous season.. So he was out of work for about 8 months.

Its pretty hard to believe that TFC could have poached a youth coach from Ajax in the middle of the season. And of course that isn't what happened.

[Huyton]

The protocol was around, but it was not used by most people, until what the early 90's. He commented that he has been on forums like this for 30 years. If he is my age or younger I find it hard to believe that he was using the internet at that time,

I logged on to many bulletin boards in the mid-80's. Many of them were linked via FidoNet, and the chat on them looked remarkably similar to this forum and others like it.

I used an acoustic coupler working at 110 baud on a Acorn Atom, which used a motorala 6502 processor. I later built a floppy drive controller for it that allowed me to use Single Sided, Single Density 5.25" floppies to store 180K of programs or data.

It was not the first computer I ever loved. That distinction fell to an IBM 1130 that belonged to the Halton Board of Education in 1973.

[sidvan]

It was easy to play the game from the stands yesterday. Obvious passes that went to the wrong player and why go into traffic when you can flick off to an open man for a cross into the box. Again, easy from the stands. It absolutely hurt to see the game just drift away from us. No response after the goal until very late in the match. Too late. We (believe it or not) missed Soolsma. I believe Avila deserved a start and was encouraged by Cann once he got over the early jitters of just flailing at the ball to get it out. Dunfield just seemed out of place. Not sure we have a spot where we can utilize him properly.

The hard part is staying encouraged about supporting the team. Our team. Frustration is a sign of caring. It does matter to us because we want to see success for the team we care about.

So let's give it a go again next week and cheer the lads on, rip into the opposition every chance we get.

[Roogsy]

if it works that way, why don't we all get together and buy a few shares. That way we can make an impact on the team(hopefully). just a thought.

If people as customers aren't willing to take action, becoming miniscule shareholders is even less effective.

And I don't understand this focus on ownership. They're not the ones running this team on a day to day basis. That's where attention should be paid.

[sidvan]

SBI - "Food4Thought: 6-0 Sporting KC=6 USA-born starters, 8 college product starters. 0-5 Toronto FC=1 USA-born starter, 3 college product starters"

[nfitz]

I was going to comment on that. 30 years ago, I was in grade 7 in the computer lab using an Apple desktop. I do not remember anything resembling the interwebs.And yet Google Groups search engine (http://groups.google.com/advanced_search) goes back to May 1981. University of Toronto staff/students were very active back then. Perhaps Henry Spencer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Spencer) rather than Al Gore. Of course there were many localized BBSs and computer systems back then that had a lot of chatter that resembles what we have now - though little is archived. I remember the first spoiler I got over a network, was about the death of Spock in Star Trek II before it opened ... so that was 30 years ago.

[jaxul]

This:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE

Onto next week! :scarf:

[DangerRed]

What more can I say that I haven't said already? I feel bad for the cheerleaders. It can hurt bad when the reality sets in.

[Beach_Red]

All the talk about ho horrible MLSE is to everyone who has ever come into contact with them (or 3 players who wanted their contracts renegotiated) means nothing. There are players who want to be here (Eckersley) and they're the ones shitting the bed on a regular basis. Winter needs to get more out of the squad he's assembled. MLSE has given the keys to Winter, and he's driving. It's up to Winter to steer us in the right direction. Anyone critical of the support should be happy there's anyone there, nevermind singing and dancing.

Was Winter really "given the keys?" He was recommended by a consultant and then backed up by an ex-New England assistant. The consultant talked about a "culture change" and some very long-range plans but Winter was only given a three year contract.

The problem with this team is it's still a major question of who actually has the keys? Who makes the decisions about DP signings? Who makes the decisions about MLS trades? Who makes the decisions about style of play? Winter was brought in to implement the consultant's plan, can you really call that being given the keys?

This team has no leadership in management because it was structured to not have any. Who, exactly, is putting their stamp on this team?

[Steve-Tor]

The slagging of MLSE is getting tired now.

Look what they have done with the Leafs in the last 4 years.

Brought in the GM everyone craved, spent as much or more money on players as anyone else.

I am beginning to think the whole city is just cursed

[JackBauer24]

Start playing the ball on the ground rather than predictably crossing it every time. It's pretty clear that we don't have the personnel to do this. Really, the only time it has worked was when we played LA (Frings to Silva, Soolsma to Johnson, and Johnson to Soolsma) compared to once (Lambe to Koevermans) in MLS.

I think our worst stat right now is 2 goals in 5 games.

[Beach_Red]

SBI - "Food4Thought: 6-0 Sporting KC=6 USA-born starters, 8 college product starters. 0-5 Toronto FC=1 USA-born starter, 3 college product starters"

Yeah, that is interesting. Well, RSL is trying to build a team to compete in MLS, they hired a former player to be their coach and it's his team. TFC hired a consultant and now it's no one's team.

[Couchy81]

Can we assume Mariner will be making some deals/signings in the next couple months?

[Roogsy]

Can we assume Mariner will be making some deals/signings in the next couple months?

If he's around.

Whatever moves TFC makes at this point will smell of desperation. And how well have those worked out for us?

#Mista

[Whoop]

What, like Reggie Lambe?

[Code Red]

First game of the season that saw me away from the stands due to a family function and it seems it was a good game to miss.

It's time to accept the fact that we lack talent on this squad. I'm sick and tired of excuses. At 0-5, there are no excuses. This BS about not having luck, are we having goals called back? Is the opposition scoring their goals on offsides? No. We've mainly been beating ourselves.

The only turnaround I see for this team in its present state is the return of Frings. If he returns against Chicago next week, his presence alone may prove to be the difference. Maybe his return will light a spark under some players asses. Given our situation, one can only hope.


Banner idea for Saturday:

No More
. Losing .

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpm111IvzZHaXR9jT__kduLfrea9IFm jhFTY3iEVc0TPkt0Ja_maicyi5qQQ

[Roogsy]

SBI - "Food4Thought: 6-0 Sporting KC=6 USA-born starters, 8 college product starters. 0-5 Toronto FC=1 USA-born starter, 3 college product starters"

We've talked quite a bit on Winter's lack of knowledge and ability to work with North American players. Many dismissed it, but the evidence is mounting that this shortcoming is by far his biggest undoing.

It's easy to work with talented up-and-coming stars. It's getting the most out of grinders and less talented players that's the key in MLS and we go off and hire someone with zero experience with that, and then dismiss this shortcoming with excuses.

It's ignoring the evidence right in our face. Winter has good qualities, but they are completely undone with his failings.

We've hired the wrong guy. And we refuse to acknowledge it. We have not learned from the Mo experience.

[Red Rat]

Roogsy you know that I have been saying the same thing on Winter

[narduch]

We've hired the wrong guy. And we refuse to acknowledge it. We have not learned from the Mo experience.

Sometimes I feel like this team hired a marketing strategy instead of a proper coach. A lot of fans eat up the 'total football'/exciting soccer/build through the academy method TFC is supposedly building.

[Couchy81]

What, like Reggie Lambe?

A lambe to the slaughter

[ensco]

MLSE has given the keys to Winter, and he's driving.

No. This is what they gave him: a co-driver (or what is he anyway?) in Mariner, and made him keep Cochrane. Plus Beirne (who was historically involved in soccer ops matters) remains in the FO.

Winter is clearly manager: making on-field decisions. My own opinion is that he makes the cuts, but doesn't "own" the player acquisition piece at all (or hasn't since last summer, the last guy to come in with his fingerprints on him was Koevermans).

[Oldtimer]

What more can I say that I haven't said already? I feel bad for the cheerleaders. It can hurt bad when the reality sets in.
How is this post helpful to others? Calling others cheerleaders is insulting. You haven't provided any insight. All you are doing is saying "I told you so."

I was right too, but I didn't see the need to insult others for being hopeful.

[ensco]

So many posts. So few about the game.

Chivas defense showed up yesterday and their team looked well organized. Our D looked pretty good too. Nice to see, for a change.

It's frustrating to see so many small mistakes by Ecks, Plata, Terry, Lambe, etc. In the end, Chivas played better and deserved the win.


I posted this in about the 25th minute in the game thread
(http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/member.php?280-ensco)


Same as every other game. A couple of promising moves, no finish. Opponent biding their time, waiting for the breakdown. Somebody needs to step up and change the script, or we will go down again.

[DoubleUp]

[QUOTE=jaxul;1473397]This:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE



I wish winter would respond like this.

[Beach_Red]

We've talked quite a bit on Winter's lack of knowledge and ability to work with North American players. Many dismissed it, but the evidence is mounting that this shortcoming is by far his biggest undoing.

It's easy to work with talented up-and-coming stars. It's getting the most out of grinders and less talented players that's the key in MLS and we go off and hire someone with zero experience with that, and then dismiss this shortcoming with excuses.

It's ignoring the evidence right in our face. Winter has good qualities, but they are completely undone with his failings.

We've hired the wrong guy. And we refuse to acknowledge it. We have not learned from the Mo experience.

It looks like we learned the wrong lesson from the Mo experience. Mo could maybe have been an okay MLS coach, but he was hired to build an entire franchise from scratch (I still say they demanded far more experience for the manager of the Real Sports bar than for TFC). There was no one hired with any experience building an expansion franchise.

And TFC still fail to hire properly at the senior management level. For all we know Winter is a great coach, but he's not running the show.

[jaxul]

It is as simple as realizing that the talent is not there. Strikers that cannot finish, mids making passes that look like skipping stones on a lake, etc. The first step is acceptance!

[Waggy]

Now that I've calmed down a bit, a question for those with more tactical knowledge than I have (which is probably all of you). How is it that it always seems like opponents find all this open space to dribble into in our end, or at the very least dribble into 1 on 1 situations vs our defense, while we're always dribbling into 2-3 players and never have space? Are we allowing the opponents the space to operate on defense? or executing poorly in the transition to attack? or just making poor decisions/reacting too slow on both offense and defense?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

This is not true. Winter was unemployed when he was hired by TFC. He was fired the previous season.. So he was out of work for about 8 months.

Its pretty hard to believe that TFC could have poached a youth coach from Ajax in the middle of the season. And of course that isn't what happened.

pretty sure he wasnt fired either, think his contract ended and he left on his own accord

[ensco]

Impossible to know how/why Winter came to be available. Even if he was fired, so what?

The funny thing is, for all this Ajax model veneration, the FO/governance at Ajax has been an epic disaster for years.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

when you have a player of DP status on your bench...you know there is issues.....

Let be honest....JDG and Kovermans are holding down two important statuses ....(DP).....honestly if your going to have 3 DP's 2 0f TFC 3 spots are not worthy of this role!....As much as i like these 2 guys....having them on your team is one thing..but if its going to cost you a 2 DP spots....we should be looking elsewhere! We have non DP players that are better then our DP's! thats a problem in itself!



CB- DP CM- FRINGS ST- DP

[Rene Kingsriver]

Start playing the ball on the ground rather than predictably crossing it every time. It's pretty clear that we don't have the personnel to do this. Really, the only time it has worked was when we played LA (Frings to Silva, Soolsma to Johnson, and Johnson to Soolsma) compared to once (Lambe to Koevermans) in MLS.

I think our worst stat right now is 2 goals in 5 games.

I really noticed this watching the game on TV, Chivas kept the ball on the ground way more than we did. For all the talk of a possession based system, I didn't see much evidence yesterday.

[DaBandit]

On the bright side there is plenty of time left in the season for ML$E to come up with a fantastic apology letter for STH's.. It will sound something like this 'we screwed up, we're sorry. But as a reward to our fan base we won't raise our over priced tickets for the coming year, while we rebuild this mess we caused'

Pathetic.. Does anyone know when TSN/Rogers take control of this mess? First thing I would love to see is a complete over haul of the upper management..

[Richard]

This team needs a real president at the top. Anselmi would only be making budgeting decisions every calender year. Many people have said TFC is missing this role within the organization, many years of experiance in the world of footbal would have seriously helped since day 1.

[Pookie]

We've talked quite a bit on Winter's lack of knowledge and ability to work with North American players. Many dismissed it, but the evidence is mounting that this shortcoming is by far his biggest undoing.

It's easy to work with talented up-and-coming stars. It's getting the most out of grinders and less talented players that's the key in MLS and we go off and hire someone with zero experience with that, and then dismiss this shortcoming with excuses.

It's ignoring the evidence right in our face. Winter has good qualities, but they are completely undone with his failings.

We've hired the wrong guy. And we refuse to acknowledge it. We have not learned from the Mo experience.

It is quite possible that we hired the right guy with the wrong time line.

Long term, Winter's commitment to the 4-3-3 might indeed pay dividends. That said, in a league that is salary capped, with import quotas and relies on homegrown talent... the kind developed by the forward thinking Ontario Soccer Association... then "long term" is the key phrase.

It is quite possible that Klinsmann oversold the outcomes while under selling the cost (ie. time investment required) to make it happen.

You say we hired the wrong guy. The guy wasn't hired and asked to make a plan. The 4-3-3 plan was here before he got here, sold by Klinsmann in a nice little package. We may have the wrong plan if the desire is short term turnaround. At which point, we may want to ensure Winter stays with the Academy and player development and find a coach that can make the most out of what we have.

(how's that for a turnaround in opinion?)

[DoubleUp]

Now that I've calmed down a bit, a question for those with more tactical knowledge than I have (which is probably all of you). How is it that it always seems like opponents find all this open space to dribble into in our end, or at the very least dribble into 1 on 1 situations vs our defense, while we're always dribbling into 2-3 players and never have space? Are we allowing the opponents the space to operate on defense? or executing poorly in the transition to attack? or just making poor decisions/reacting too slow on both offense and defense?



your not far off, imo its many things.

1. striker/cf not putting enough pressure on the opposing teams backline by not closing down the ball quick enough/or at all.
(mls is about pressurizing weak teams/defences to make mistakes and respond with goals when given the opportunity)
2. Games are won in the midfield, and there is no one making key stops in that area, allowing the ball to be rammed down the back lines throats.
3. not transitioning quick enough, with crisp passes going forward and making the right decisions at the right time 80% of the time.

But like I said b4, its usually men vs boys out there.

we dont look like a senior team the way we play the game, we look like an academy team. To many glaring errors and missed chance to look truely professional.

- doubleup

[Richard]

Is the Ajax system not flexible? I dont understand why management refuse to change formations, i understand its part of the big picture and needs to be kept consistant throughout the team but every big club in the world adjusts there formation to the opposition. I wonder if TFC would play a 4-3-3 against Barca in a real match, i think every team in the world who faces them puts 11 men behind the ball.

[nickio]

there are 2 camps/cultures of thought

-Do what you say you would do! Let Winter do his job and see it through to the end, when time is up Evaluate and BE Accountable

OR

-Pull the plug before it gets any worse! RISK with another coach and HOPE for the best. EXPECT the STAFF and PLAYERS TO KEEP THEIR PROMISES, WHILE NOT KEEPING YOURS!

Talk about setting the culture!

[Roogsy]

It is quite possible that we hired the right guy with the wrong time line.

Long term, Winter's commitment to the 4-3-3 might indeed pay dividends. That said, in a league that is salary capped, with import quotas and relies on homegrown talent... the kind developed by the forward thinking Ontario Soccer Association... then "long term" is the key phrase.

It is quite possible that Klinsmann oversold the outcomes while under selling the cost (ie. time investment required) to make it happen.

You say we hired the wrong guy. The guy wasn't hired and asked to make a plan. The 4-3-3 plan was here before he got here, sold by Klinsmann in a nice little package. We may have the wrong plan if the desire is short term turnaround. At which point, we may want to ensure Winter stays with the Academy and player development and find a coach that can make the most out of what we have.

(how's that for a turnaround in opinion?)

I disagree. I think he is the wrong guy not because of the system but because I feel he is the wrong guy to employ it.

Frankly, I am formation-neutral. I don't care if we play 4-3-3, 4-4-2 or 9-1, as long as it is effective. If there is a lesson in this league it's that any system works if it is deployed effectively. KC plays an adjustable 4-3-3, LA plays a 4-4-2, both work well. It's the coach that makes it work. Knowing the parts, adjusting and then adding pieces here and there as need be.

Winter has not shown able to do that.

Therefore the logical conclusion is that the problem isn't with the system, it's with the tacticitian employing it.

In addition, if your argument is that Klinnsman oversold MLSE on the aspects of this new plan, one of the elements of that plan is Winter, since he recommended him, therefore making him part of the problem of the oversold plan.

I guess my ultimate point is that regardless if Winter is wrong because he has deficiencies or because of the urgent need for shorter term results, the ultimate conclusion is the same, he is still the wrong guy for the job that we needed hired in 2011 under these very specific circumstances. If your argument is that the conditions weren't right but under other circumstances he'd do better, fine, I don't agree but it doesn't change the actual facts, that keeping him here doesn't change the circumstances and conditions of this team. I would argue the circumstances becomes even more acute and urgent with each passing game. Therefore, keeping him on for the reason of "not having a 7th coach in 7 years" is hardly a recipe for success. You keep a manager on because you believe he is the right guy for the job and will have success, not because you are tired of going through people in that position.

[Roogsy]

there are 2 camps/cultures of thought

-Do what you say you would do! Let Winter do his job and see it through to the end, when time is up Evaluate and BE Accountable

OR

-Pull the plug before it gets any worse! RISK with another coach and HOPE for the best. EXPECT the STAFF and PLAYERS TO KEEP THEIR PROMISES, WHILE NOT KEEPING YOURS!

Talk about setting the culture!
I would argue you have mischaracterized one set of circumstances in favour of another. In both circumstances there are elements of risk and hope. On the risk side, you are risking different consequences. On the hope side, we don't find ourselves hoping only if we change coaches. We are now in a situation where either situation entails a large degree of hope the team can turn it around, not just if we change coaches but also if we keep Winter on.

[Fort York Redcoat]

0-5. Aquiring new players, coaches or upper management will all be rushed decisions to try and save the season.

One thing I'll say to continuing the revolving door in coaching over trying to break our own record setting player turnaround is that it doesn't count against our cap...

[Rhapido]

I don't understand how people can quit supporting their team because of performance? Get angry at coaching, management, players yes, but giving up on the team, I don't get it. Never understood band wagon fans.

This is a North American phenomenon...where supporting a sports team is less about loyalty to the club and the city, and more akin to a consumer purchasing an items at the local mall. If the customer isn't "satisfied", he moves his investment (in this case, his time and emotional support) to a different product (team).