Postgame rant TFC v Chivas

[Carts]

Its funny, its so bad that I don't want to change anything...

Normally when something like this goes on, a passionate supporter like me would be screaming for changes, new leaders, etc etc etc - but I'm not...

I don't know if I have been beaten into submission, or I think why change and institute turmoil with another coach, I really don't know...

I'm just so beaten down, just 5-games, I'm considering just giving up - and that is not in my nature at all...

Maybe its other things in life that have sucked the life out of me... Maybe its the fact I used to look to this team to distract me from the shitty things in life and give me something to believe in and now that's gone...

I really don't know...

I have been one of the biggest supporters and cheerleaders (for lack of a better word) for this club since day-1, I love them, love wearing the jersey, the jacket, I know the lads on the pitch are trying, they care, but I am beaten down with losing...

I just hope the lads have more in them than me - I really do, b/c my tank is almost empty...

I still believe in the effort and passion of the boys on the pitch - I hope they know that...

All I know is, for the first time ever, I'm considering not renewing my tickets and just watching on tv - its just a game, its just a sport, but losing has sucked the life out of me right now...

Tomorrow's a new day - I just need something to bring the fight back into me...

Carts...

[moralis]

Not sure if this is true or not or what to make of it, but it seems MLSE employees want to diminish the bad discussion of poor results:

Jennifer Benson ‏ @wordonbaystreet (http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet)

4 MLSE employees exposed after creating accounts to #TFC (http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC) discussion forum hot-spot redpatchboys.ca. Used accounts to mitigate bad sentiment.

http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet/status/191521187896098816

Not sure if this real or just BS.

[Roogsy]

This is a North American phenomenon...where supporting a sports team is less about loyalty to the club and the city, and more akin to a consumer purchasing an items at the local mall. If the customer isn't "satisfied", he moves his investment (in this case, his time and emotional support) to a different product (team).

When you're treated like a cashcow it shouldn't be surprising if the consumer revolts when the product is substandard.

One-sided loyalty is nothing to take pride in.

[Pookie]

I disagree. I think he is the wrong guy not because of the system but because I feel he is the wrong guy to employ it.

Frankly, I am tactically-neutral. I don't care if we play 4-3-3, 4-4-2 or 9-1, as long as it is effective. If there is a lesson in this league it's that any system works if it is deployed effectively. KC plays an adjustable 4-3-3, LA plays a 4-4-2, both work well. It's the coach that makes it work. Knowing the parts, adjusting and then adding pieces here and there as need be.

Winter has not shown able to do that.

Therefore the logical conclusion is that the problem isn't with the system, it's with the tacticitian employing it.

In addition, if your argument is that Klinnsman oversold MLSE on the aspects of this new plan, one of the elements of that plan is Winter, since he recommended him, therefore making him part of the problem of the oversold plan.

I guess my ultimate point is that regardless if Winter is wrong because he has deficiencies or because of the urgent need for shorter term results, the ultimate conclusion is the same, he is still the wrong guy for the job that we needed hired in 2011 under these very specific circumstances. If your argument is that the conditions weren't right but under other circumstances he'd do better, fine, I don't agree but it doesn't change the actual facts, that keeping him here doesn't change the circumstances and conditions of this team. I would argue the circumstances becomes even more acute and urgent with each passing game. Therefore, keeping him on for the reason of "not having a 7th coach in 7 years" is hardly a recipe for success. You keep a manager on because you believe he is the right guy for the job and will have success, not because you are tired of going through people in that position.

So, you keep the plan? A "Total Football" approach that relies on technical skill that can be filled through both a limited International Roster quota and our illustrious development model with the Ontario Soccer Association to feed TFC-Academy with technically sound players in order to expect a short turn around? ie. this season

Winter has shown an ability to adapt to games in the CCL, getting farther than nearly every other MLS team since the competition began (RSL exception). I'm skeptical it can work over the short term but fully believe that it will benefit the organization over the long term.

When you really cut to the chase, the issue isn't with the plan or Winter's 50/50 ability to implement it or the players we have. It really comes down to the fact that if we wanted to evaluate our progress against objectives and those aspects (Winter, players, Mariner, the plan itself), Tom Anselmi would have to look at his pocket guide given to him by Klinsmann in order to make a decision. Or he would have to cut another cheque to have Klinsmann come back and tell him what to do.

Either or, he is paralyzed by a lack of experience and knowledge and that is why we are where we are.

That is the basis of all of our problems.

[Furtado91]

as much as I hate the way the team has been playing lately, I think it should be known that we are not happy. I would love to see Toronto hoist the league cup or win the champions league and see that star above the teams crest. Its just really tough and frustrating supporting a team that does not play like a team sometimes and look as though they do not want to even be there sometimes. will i go continue to watch the games live? possibly. I will always be reading up on the team and watching the games on tv, I just want what everyone wants. Changes. how that happens I do not know. what I do know is if somethings not working its time to go back to the drawing board and try to find the issue and fix it. I want to see some experimentation from Winter.

One prime example is this, its obvious Dunfield is not playing well, so how about Winter experiments and places someone else, if that doesn't work try somebody else. What im trying to say is fiddle around with the squad. if you see duos working great together pair them up. we need a squad that has great chemistry don't just put somebody to plug a hole in the squad. I want to see Winter play around with the squad.

[Roogsy]

Not sure if this is true or not or what to make of it, but it seems MLSE employees want to diminish the bad discussion of poor results:

Jennifer Benson ‏ @wordonbaystreet (http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet)

4 MLSE employees exposed after creating accounts to #TFC (http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC) discussion forum hot-spot redpatchboys.ca. Used accounts to mitigate bad sentiment.

http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet/status/191521187896098816

Not sure if this real or just BS.


:rolleyes:

Would not surprise me if it were true...

[Jack]

Not sure if this is true or not or what to make of it, but it seems MLSE employees want to diminish the bad discussion of poor results:

Jennifer Benson ‏ @wordonbaystreet (http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet)

4 MLSE employees exposed after creating accounts to #TFC (http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC) discussion forum hot-spot redpatchboys.ca. Used accounts to mitigate bad sentiment.

http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet/status/191521187896098816

Not sure if this real or just BS.
Where'd she get that info?

[Roogsy]

So, you keep the plan? A "Total Football" approach that relies on technical skill that can be filled through both a limited International Roster quota and our illustrious development model with the Ontario Soccer Association to feed TFC-Academy with technically sound players in order to expect a short turn around? ie. this season

Winter has shown an ability to adapt to games in the CCL, getting farther than nearly every other MLS team since the competition began (RSL exception). I'm skeptical it can work over the short term but fully believe that it will benefit the organization over the long term.

When you really cut to the chase, the issue isn't with the plan or Winter's 50/50 ability to implement it or the players we have. It really comes down to the fact that if we wanted to evaluate our progress against objectives and those aspects (Winter, players, Mariner, the plan itself), Tom Anselmi would have to look at his pocket guide given to him by Klinsmann in order to make a decision. Or he would have to cut another cheque to have Klinsmann come back and tell him what to do.

Either or, he is paralyzed by a lack of experience and knowledge and that is why we are where we are.

That is the basis of all of our problems.

I definitely think Anselmi is part of the problem but not the biggest part & I always believe you work on the solvable problems not the ones you can't fix. New ownership will resolve TA in time but whether he stays or goes will not make Winter more effective. So in my opinion it's a red herring on the issue of Tfc's performance.

[ag futbol]

So I was googling random stuff today and the subject came up of slavery vs. indentured servitude. Which raised the question in my head, which one is rooting for TFC closer to? lol

[moralis]

Hi Jack,

I don't know where Jennifer Benson found that information. I just saw that tweet while browsing through #TFC on twitter and saw it. Thought I would post it. Not sure if it's true or just BS.

[Beach_Red]

When you're treated like a cashcow it shouldn't be surprising if the consumer revolts when the product is substandard.

One-sided loyalty is nothing to take pride in.

Maybe it's the difference between 'clubs' and 'franchises.' These days, any team with a single owner is really just a franchise. Maybe it's to feed the owner's ego, maybe it's to make money, either way the paying customers are just that, customers. And there's no shame in being a customer but we shouldn't pretend that we're anything else.

[Roogsy]

Not sure if this is true or not or what to make of it, but it seems MLSE employees want to diminish the bad discussion of poor results:

Jennifer Benson ‏ @wordonbaystreet (http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet)

4 MLSE employees exposed after creating accounts to #TFC (http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC) discussion forum hot-spot redpatchboys.ca. Used accounts to mitigate bad sentiment.

http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet/status/191521187896098816

Not sure if this real or just BS.

One of her other tweets said supporters are organizing a walk-out which is news to me so her info maybe dodgy.

[Canary10]

SBI - "Food4Thought: 6-0 Sporting KC=6 USA-born starters, 8 college product starters. 0-5 Toronto FC=1 USA-born starter, 3 college product starters"

This quote from Ives is interesting. As usual Ives gets the meaning of it completely wrong, which isn't suprising as he's not particularly bright or insightful. It's not about NCAA or US born per se, but that TFC has embarked on a strategy of developing local players into professional footballers. I think we lose sight of that a bit. Winter wasn't brought in to implement a 4-3-3 with the first team. That's part of it of course, but he was really brought in to create an entire history and way of playing that we've never had. One that is linked to the development of football at the regional level in Toronto. The reason TFC have fewer American/NCAA players is that we have Canadian/Academy players.

This is in complete contrast to what Montreal and Vancouver are doing. They both have coaches that don't give a shit at all about Canadian football and have no stake, personal or otherwise, in seeing local players succeed as professionals. They've built their entire teams around non-Canadian players. The real irony to me is that we've brought this guy over from the Netherlands who is by far more imbedded in football here than any of these other coaches who have been coaching in North America for years. You think Jesse Marsch gives a shit at all about trying to bring Montrealers into the first team? Winter legitimately cares about this stuff.

[Pookie]

This quote from Ives is interesting. As usual Ives gets the meaning of it completely wrong, which isn't suprising as he's not particularly bright or insightful. It's not about NCAA or US born per se, but that TFC has embarked on a strategy of developing local players into professional footballers. I think we lose sight of that a bit. Winter wasn't brought in to implement a 4-3-3 with the first team. That's part of it of course, but he was really brought in to create an entire history and way of playing that we've never had. One that is linked to the development of football at the regional level in Toronto. The reason TFC have fewer American/NCAA players is that we have Canadian/Academy players.

This is in complete contrast to what Montreal and Vancouver are doing. They both have coaches that don't give a shit at all about Canadian football and have no stake, personal or otherwise, in seeing local players succeed as professionals. They've built their entire teams around non-Canadian players. The real irony to me is that we've brought this guy over from the Netherlands who is by far more imbedded in football here than any of these other coaches who have been coaching in North America for years. You think Jesse Marsch gives a shit at all about trying to bring Montrealers into the first team? Winter legitimately cares about this stuff.

Which is where I was going with the "long term" thing. Right plan with a long timeline considering it relies on players coming out of the OSA right now to fill the Academy ranks.

The basis of the plan is excellent. I just feel that they underestimated (or were undersold) on the time it would take to make it happen.

Maybe they had good volunteer coaches but for a system that relies on technical skill, this is a glaring weakness that can only be addressed over time.

[ag futbol]

^ I agree, I'm glad we're taking the long road in terms of developing our own players. I think that's smart. That being said, we need to differentiate between today and the future. Today, we don't have many academy products who are capable of starting and doing the job. In the long-run, more will trickle in.

Part of what Ives is pointing to in that quote is irrelevant IMO. Who cares where you get your talent from, as long as they are effective. KC is effective because their players are talented, not because they played US college ball.

[Gazza_55]

When is Kovermanns contract up?

There's no way he should be on DP money

[Yeoman]

One of her other tweets said supporters are organizing a walk-out which is news to me so her info maybe dodgy.

well i've got to leave the stadium at some point. they don't just let me live there
geesh MLSE

[Abou Sky]

One of her other tweets said supporters are organizing a walk-out which is news to me so her info maybe dodgy.

Um... Not saying it ISNT true, but what are the chances that WE would hear it from HER?

Yay twitter, the broken telephone of modern times...

[Beach_Red]

^ I agree, I'm glad we're taking the long road in terms of developing our own players. I think that's smart. That being said, we need to differentiate between today and the future. Today, we don't have many academy products who are capable of starting and doing the job. In the long-run, more will trickle in.

Part of what Ives is pointing to in that quote is irrelevant IMO. Who cares where you get your talent from, as long as they are effective. KC is effective because their players are talented, not because they played US college ball.

Will this academy system work in North America? Won't the very best players jump to higher paying leagues and many of the mid-level players like the idea of a university education? They can always come back into MLS through the draft.

RSL is basing its development on the NFL model which is what MLS wants, isn't it? Teams don't develop players individually, the NCAA develops a pool of players the pro teams draw from. Of course soccer, with players available from around the world is different, so it's not an exact model but MLS knows that for marketing they need as many Americans in the league as possible.

[Canary10]

In terms of Winter continuing as manager. The overriding thing for me is does he still have the players? Can't say this for sure, but I think if you polled them and asked if they support him you would get an overwhelming yes.

The other thing to consider, for every Chelsea that changes managers and gets some (limited) success, you have a Wolves. Does anyone really think based on our history we'd be the Chelsea? I highly doubt it. In fact, given the lack of skilled managers sitting around out there waiting for lucrative MLS jobs, I'm confident we'd be the Wolves, who had no one ready to replace McCarthy when he went.

[DoubleUp]

Not sure if this is true or not or what to make of it, but it seems MLSE employees want to diminish the bad discussion of poor results:

Jennifer Benson ‏ @wordonbaystreet (http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet)

4 MLSE employees exposed after creating accounts to #TFC (http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC) discussion forum hot-spot redpatchboys.ca. Used accounts to mitigate bad sentiment.

http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet/status/191521187896098816

Not sure if this real or just BS.






I wouldnt be surprised!

[Canary10]

I wouldnt be surprised!


Vancouver Whitecaps front office employee let go after being exposed for inciting a witch hunt for MLSE employees on Redpatchboys website.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Not sure if this is true or not or what to make of it, but it seems MLSE employees want to diminish the bad discussion of poor results:

Jennifer Benson ‏ @wordonbaystreet (http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet)

4 MLSE employees exposed after creating accounts to #TFC (http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC) discussion forum hot-spot redpatchboys.ca. Used accounts to mitigate bad sentiment.

http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet/status/191521187896098816

Not sure if this real or just BS.

There are FOUR people tryng to be positive about this team on here?

That seems a little high..

Nice try Jennifer

[nfitz]

Where'd she get that info?If the information didn't come from you guys going through IP numbers, then one has to suspect it's all BS.

[DoubleUp]

Vancouver Whitecaps front office employee let go after being exposed for inciting a witch hunt for MLSE employees on Redpatchboys website.


Thats epic, but waste imo. I already know Mlse is a disease.



but that should show people that winning by any means, having the advantage/edge over your opponent
is becoming more apparent in this league and Toronto is being left behind.

[Canary10]

One thing I've not seen anyone post about was the hand ball on Ryan Smith, who was already on a yellow. You can really intentionally jump up and catch a ball on the pitch, then go "tee-hee, I thought I was standing out of bounds" in MLS? What the fuck? That is a red card. I got cut from a team as a kid for doing that. What the fuck was up with that?

[Torontotonto]

Never expected it to get this bad, however after the epic night at Rogers Centre and advancing in CCL, it was an early peak to our season, then our field general Frings goes down in Seattle, then Frei in training, I got that old Toronto feeling that seems to encompass all of our teams when we are finally looking forward to a season full of promise.

"Through the Highs and the Lows"
Cant get much lower from here I hope.
Onward and Upward Boys...

Success in VI.
how about,
Success in Game VI.
might be more appropriate for now.

:facepalm:

Edit : I'm going to loose my mind if Winter mentions Bad Luck one more time.

[Jack]

If the information didn't come from you guys going through IP numbers, then one has to suspect it's all BS.
That's what I'm thinking.

[spe18]

Yeah, that is interesting. Well, RSL is trying to build a team to compete in MLS, they hired a former player to be their coach and it's his team. TFC hired a consultant and now it's no one's team.

Well, Mo Johnston was a former player in MLS IIFC :)

[reggie]

0 and 5 wow...cant wait for that ticket increase next season and the transfer window closes today i think,i guess we are stuck with these clowns until summer..

[maninb]

It's not the system...imo....Winter's player choices seem wrong...of course he has limited choices in the midfield...JDG and Dunfield are pretty much hopeless...surely there's some better options someplace...Mariner MUST get some new blood...and don't give up on DK just yet...get him the ball and he will score....

[TheRenter]

This club is broken.

[Oldtimer]

I find the panic going on over the top.

Frings will be back, and the team will get a result next game. The team was built around Frings, and it needs him. Like I said before it cannot win without him.

Whether the points picked up over the rest of the season is enough to make up for his injury time and get TFC into the playoffs is up for debate.

[spe18]

I really noticed this watching the game on TV, Chivas kept the ball on the ground way more than we did. For all the talk of a possession based system, I didn't see much evidence yesterday.

This, from the booklet that was handed out at the relocation sessions :)

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9184/tfcbooklet.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/214/tfcbooklet.jpg/)

[spe18]

Pathetic.. Does anyone know when TSN/Rogers take control of this mess? First thing I would love to see is a complete over haul of the upper management..

I heard on HNIC the proposed sale of MLSE has hit some roadblocks, as the Competition Bureau has some issues with Bell owing both the Leafs and the Canadiens (or something like that).

[Roogsy]

Frings will be back, and the team will get a result next game. The team was built around Frings, and it needs him. Like I said before it cannot win without him.


What happened to "you don't build around a single" player?

And what does it say about the way this team is built if they're worse this year without that player?

Say what you want about Preki but his team imploded because he treated them like shit, not because his system was ineffective. One injury/absence didn't collapse the team like this.

[Rene Kingsriver]

I find the panic going on over the top.

Frings will be back, and the team will get a result next game. The team was built around Frings, and it needs him. Like I said before it cannot win without him.

Whether the points picked up over the rest of the season is enough to make up for his injury time and get TFC into the playoffs is up for debate.

If the team really is so dependent on one player that it can't win without him then it really is time to start panicking

[Canary10]

The team hasn't collapsed.

[Beach_Red]

What happened to "you don't build around a single" player?

And what does it say about the way this team is built if they're worse this year without that player?

Say what you want about Preki but his team imploded because he treated them like shit, not because his system was ineffective. One injury/absence didn't collapse the team like this.

Building around one aged, rental player seems to be the exact opposite of what was promised after the Klinsmann consultancy.

I don't disagree that's what they've done, it's just the opposite of what they said they'd do.

[OgtheDim]

What exaclty should we support through thick and thin, 5 years of mostly SHITE. If AC Milan was playing as shit as TFC has for 5 years, what the fuck do you think would happen at the stadium?????? The stands would be empty ...


Nope.

[Fort York Redcoat]

What happened to "you don't build around a single" player?

And what does it say about the way this team is built if they're worse this year without that player?

Say what you want about Preki but his team imploded because he treated them like shit, not because his system was ineffective. One injury/absence didn't collapse the team like this.

It sure is a shame about Preki..

Too bad he couldn't get along with anyone.

[JavierMartini]

No more terrible dunfield. Please , please .

Avila needs to be starting.

[OgtheDim]

I was going to comment on that. 30 years ago, I was in grade 7 in the computer lab using an Apple desktop. I do not remember anything resembling the interwebs.

I was at U of Waterloo using Unix in the Arts Lab.


Word Perfect essays using code.........oh the joy.

[Oldtimer]

What happened to "you don't build around a single" player?

And what does it say about the way this team is built if they're worse this year without that player?

Say what you want about Preki but his team imploded because he treated them like shit, not because his system was ineffective. One injury/absence didn't collapse the team like this.

I'm in total agreement with you, Roogsy (well, except maybe about Preki). They shouldn't have built the team around Frings. I think they fell into that when Mariner's defensive selections failed.

Really this two-headed beast (Winter/Mariner) which was supposed to have made up for the weak areas of each guy is not working.

That doesn't mean, however, that TFC cannot squeak into a playoff spot, its just a lot less likely now.

[Rhapido]

When you're treated like a cashcow it shouldn't be surprising if the consumer revolts when the product is substandard.

One-sided loyalty is nothing to take pride in.

My point is that supporting your team should NOT be treated like a consumer transaction. Unfortunately, for many on this side of the pond (and in this city), this is how it is. This is not about money. Yes, they charge you admission to get into BMO, but so does every other professional sports team around the world. That's how it works.

One-sided loyalty -- that's the only kind there is, isn't there? Two-sided loyalty?! LOL!

Listen, I'm not suggesting in the least that the team you support should be impervious to criticism. Far from it. Supporters have a right to be upset and a right to express their displeasure. If someone is satisfied with the state of this team right now, there's something seriously wrong. But it's those others that call themselves fans or supporters from time to time and that are now packing it in and are going to stop following and supporting the team that make me shake my head.

[OgtheDim]

When you're treated like a cashcow it shouldn't be surprising if the consumer revolts when the product is substandard.

One-sided loyalty is nothing to take pride in.

Talk to a few supporters of teams in the English leagues (below the EPL) about being treated as a cash cow.

We're hardly the first or the worst treated.

As for taking pride in the team over the management, that's the difference between being a supporter and being a consumer. I know this is very difficult for people to understand but TFC does not = MLSE

[Azerban]

The team hasn't collapsed.

Agreed. This team hasn't even begun to collapse.

[Rhapido]

When is Kovermanns contract up?

There's no way he should be on DP money

What was the stat they threw up during the broadcast yesterday? 9 goals in 14 games? Those are pretty weak numbers right there, considering that Ronaldo and Messi are averaging over a goal per game.:facepalm:

[Parkdale]

Say what you want about Preki but his team imploded because he treated them like shit, not because his system was ineffective. One injury/absence didn't collapse the team like this.

but the system was, for the most part, completely ineffective - they just imploded before that became the big issue.

From everything I've heard, the only thing Preki taught the players was how to jog for hours. Yes the team had better stamina, but still didn't seem to have anything resembling a system.

[Parkdale]

Those are pretty weak numbers right there, considering that Ronaldo and Messi are averaging over a goal per game.:facepalm:


is the ":facepalm:" because you're comparing the goal rate of a player on our team with two of the most productive players in the world? because it should be, if it wasn't.

[JavierMartini]

Why can't we just clone swansea's team and play them . We'd be number 1!

[Rhapido]

Talk to a few supporters of teams in the English leagues (below the EPL) about being treated as a cash cow.

We're hardly the first or the worst treated.

As for taking pride in the team over the management, that's the difference between being a supporter and being a consumer. I know this is very difficult for people to understand but TFC does not = MLSE

For perspective, consider my late grandfather back in Portugal. A card-carrying supporter ("socio") of his local first division team, Maritimo, since he was 14. Supported them until he died at age 95. Attended home games religiously until just a few years before that when his health took a tunr for the worse. His team competed but never won a league title in his lifetime. Hard to win in a league that has 2 or 3 big teams, with massive budgets. Over the years, there were promotions and relegations. There were even the odd runs deep into the domestic cup competition, and even some appearances in European tournaments, but through it all, never any true championship-winning success. I'm sure there were many times in the 80+ years that he could of packed it in and said enough's enough, this team will never win, and throw his support behind a Benfica or a Porto. But that's not what being a supporter is about.

That's why when he passed away in 2007, the club honoured him by cloaking his coffin with the team flag during the march into the cemetary, with a 4 piece mandolin quartet playing the team's official anthem.

TFC right now is not a good team. But they are still our team. And having lived in this city for so many years without one, I am still happy to say that I have one.

[Rhapido]

is the ":facepalm:" because you're comparing the goal rate of a player on our team with two of the most productive players in the world? because it should be, if it wasn't.

The :facepalm: is because the OP was that the Koev suddenly isn't worth DP money. When your DP striker comes in and scores 9 in 14, I don't think you should be complaining. In fact, if you have a striker that has a strike rate somewhere between 1 every 2 and 1 every 3, I'd say you've done pretty well.

[Strans]

The MLSE argument is stagnant and boring.

The fact of the matter is that MLSE recognized that they don't know anything about football/hockey/basketball and have essentially handed the reins to people who are experts in the field. Did they make improper decisions? perhaps. But as a fan, when you struggle with the quality of product on the pitch/ice/floor, then you have to realize that the issue lies not with MLSE trying to gouge the city's fans/enjoying losing/making money while losing, but rather with the leadership in place of that particular branch of MLSE, as I highly doubt Anselmi is phoning down to Winter and telling him to start Dunfield.


</endrant>

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID.

I do have a problem with the quality of the product on the pitch like everyone here, but I don't think that blowing this thing up and starting over is the answer (nor is it likely). As has been said a couple times above this is a cultural shift that is attempting to be imparted from the grassroots level. To abort it this early into its development would do exponentially more damage than leaving it intact for another year/two IMO.

What I do find puzzling is the dichotomy between CCL play and league play, where Winter seems more willing to adjust tactically in the CCL to win than in the league where he seems to put the system first and let the players sink or swim within it. This issue gets compounded when he keeps running pieces out there who have shown to be incapable within the system.



I'm frustrated but hopeful. Isn't that what supporters should be right now?

[69Chevy396]

Ok, how has MLSE been 'greedy' with TFC?

They spend money on the team, they don't shit on the fans, in fact I feel like all my dealings with them are pretty positive so the support staff are there.

How are they greedy?
They are greedy because they place profits above all else. No other way to explain the history of recruiting inexperienced managers, coaches, trainers, scouts at all levels throughout the organization. You want a winning club you hire a guy like the coach of the Red Wings, not the bum who gets fired from Anahaim. You want to win at the mls level, you hire the best available people, pay them what they deserve, and let them do their thing. Hiring Mo, followed by rookies, and then a dummy from Holland demonstrates how greed, and not smarts rules mlse.

[ryan]

For perspective, consider my late grandfather back in Portugal. A card-carrying supporter ("socio") of his local first division team, Maritimo, since he was 14. Supported them until he died at age 95. Attended home games religiously until just a few years before that when his health took a tunr for the worse. His team competed but never won a league title in his lifetime. Hard to win in a league that has 2 or 3 big teams, with massive budgets. Over the years, there were promotions and relegations. There were even the odd runs deep into the domestic cup competition, and even some appearances in European tournaments, but through it all, never any true championship-winning success. I'm sure there were many times in the 80+ years that he could of packed it in and said enough's enough, this team will never win, and throw his support behind a Benfica or a Porto. But that's not what being a supporter is about.

That's why when he passed away in 2007, the club honoured him by cloaking his coffin with the team flag during the march into the cemetary, with a 4 piece mandolin quartet playing the team's official anthem.

TFC right now is not a good team. But they are still our team. And having lived in this city for so many years without one, I am still happy to say that I have one.


I see the point you're trying to make, however MLS is a league designed through and through for parity. Designed so that no one club can rule in and out. Designed so that everyone's going to have success here and there.

While the club your grandad supported was never really supposed to succeed, it wasn't a let down when they never did. We're not in the same boat, we're supposed to be able to hang with everyone by playing by the same rules. We can't even do that. That's my issue.

[MartinUtd]

My season ticket price doubled in 4 years. It took them 3 years to sign a DP and when they did it was a poorly thought out "let's get the fans on our side" move with De Guzman and Mista. That idiot Paul Bernie used to come on here every day and was showered with praise and ass kissing. Where's the pudgy little asshole now? Hiding in his MLSE office, that's where. Running TFC is no longer an easy job and when the going gets tough the tough get going.

[Oldtimer]

They are greedy because they place profits above all else. No other way to explain the history of recruiting inexperienced managers, coaches, trainers, scouts at all levels throughout the organization. You want a winning club you hire a guy like the coach of the Red Wings, not the bum who gets fired from Anahaim. You want to win at the mls level, you hire the best available people, pay them what they deserve, and let them do their thing. Hiring Mo, followed by rookies, and then a dummy from Holland demonstrates how greed, and not smarts rules mlse.
Avoid hyperbole, even if you are upset.
Calling Winter a dummy is really poor form. He knows a lot about football, its just that foreign coaches rarely do well in MLS. It's a unique league.

[DoubleUp]

The :facepalm: is because the OP was that the Koev suddenly isn't worth DP money. When your DP striker comes in and scores 9 in 14, I don't think you should be complaining. In fact, if you have a striker that has a strike rate somewhere between 1 every 2 and 1 every 3, I'd say you've done pretty well.

Not saying he shouldnt be a Dp, but koevs did that last year. I also think alan Gordon would be more effective with this current team based on his movement/athleticism, but since that not an option we must improve the quality of the attackers around koevermans........that is the only way at this point.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Not sure if this is true or not or what to make of it, but it seems MLSE employees want to diminish the bad discussion of poor results:

Jennifer Benson ‏ @wordonbaystreet (http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet)

4 MLSE employees exposed after creating accounts to #TFC (http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23TFC) discussion forum hot-spot redpatchboys.ca. Used accounts to mitigate bad sentiment.

http://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet/status/191521187896098816

Not sure if this real or just BS.

even if this was true people here are not gullible automatons, we watch the game individually and will likely comment as such

[los sonadores]

This is a North American phenomenon...where supporting a sports team is less about loyalty to the club and the city, and more akin to a consumer purchasing an items at the local mall. If the customer isn't "satisfied", he moves his investment (in this case, his time and emotional support) to a different product (team).

This is exactly right. As well, he then feels humiliated because his merch is devalued in the public eye.

Doesn't have much to do with the actual football played on the field in all it's ups and downs.

[Huyton]

I feel sorry for the first team we beat.

Well, almost.

They're going to leave the field to the sound of "Can we play you every week?" ringing in their ears.

I hope it's this weekend!

[Phil]

even if this was true people here are not gullible automatons, we watch the game individually and will likely comment as such

Very true. Nobody has brought this up, only on twitter so its total BS from what I can see. If true, they don't seem to be doing a good job as we can't find them.

[ExiledRed]

They're right under your nose, Phil. Look closer.

[ensco]

^There are definitely a couple of people I wonder about.

There is a pretty significant amount of corporate effort going into influencing social media right now. There are really interesting stories about companies posting shrill reviews on tripadvisor out there, as a for instance

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2032997/TripAdvisor-investigated-ASA-fake-reviews.html

[MartinUtd]

Who is Jennifer Benson and who calls their own writing sharp?


Columnist and Passionate Toronto Maple Leafs' Fan (although my sharp criticism of Brian Burke's failed rebuild would have you believe otherwise).

:facepalm:

[johntv]

Luck is generally a by product of effort. You have to put yourself in a position to get lucky. Outside of the last 10 minutes of the game, when did we deserve any luck today? And trying for 1/9th of a game isn't NEARLY the sort of effort to support. I don't mind TFC losing if we're out there working hard, trying to play properly and things don't go our way. The game today was not such a situation


This is not at all what I expected from my Dutch compratriots.My Dutch advise well built up that defense as much as possible for starters.

[ag futbol]

Who is Jennifer Benson and who calls their own writing sharp?



:facepalm:
That can be taken to mean pointed or specific.

[los sonadores]

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/styles/AnimatedArena/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Waggy http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/styles/AnimatedArena/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1473140#post1473140)
Luck is generally a by product of effort. You have to put yourself in a position to get lucky. Outside of the last 10 minutes of the game, when did we deserve any luck today? And trying for 1/9th of a game isn't NEARLY the sort of effort to support. I don't mind TFC losing if we're out there working hard, trying to play properly and things don't go our way. The game today was not such a situation[/QUOTE]

I though they played well enough to win. Ante Jazic said in the Globe: “Toronto played really well, especially in the second half, they dominated play.” He was on the pitch.

[Toronto]

Winter did have a job coaching in Holland. At a little club called Ajax, you may have heard of it. The thing is, Dutch clubs don't have very much money, so I'm sure whatever ridiculous amount mlse offered was more than enough to convince him to leave

'After a 3 year Assistant coaching career with the Ajax first academy team, Winter signed a 3 year contract with Canadian side Toronto FC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC) on January 6, 2011. "


WOW an assistant coach with a youth academy team in Holland. LOL! Again, until we hire a guys who understands the MLS-- as a GM and as a Coach... we will be doomed...

[Ajax TFC]

what's with the Alan Gordon vs Koev comparison? We didn't trade Gordon to get Koev, we traded him to got Johnson. So if you want to talk about how Gordon would be playing, you have to compare it to how Johnson's doing

[T.O TILL I DIE]

imagine Johnson and Dero playing up front together on Toronto! Theyd be amazing

[DoubleUp]

what's with the Alan Gordon vs Koev comparison? We didn't trade Gordon to get Koev, we traded him to got Johnson. So if you want to talk about how Gordon would be playing, you have to compare it to how Johnson's doing


They essentially play the same position target forward, and I made the comment that Alan would be a nicer fit in the current system based on his movement and athleticism..............is this not allowed?

[billyfly]

This is a North American phenomenon...where supporting a sports team is less about loyalty to the club and the city, and more akin to a consumer purchasing an items at the local mall. If the customer isn't "satisfied", he moves his investment (in this case, his time and emotional support) to a different product (team).

LOL...I've been making this point about several people on this board and their hockey alligences many times over the years.

We don't have to worry about this and TFC and MLS though cuz no one is going to jump to the CRew or NYRB like they've jumped to the Bruins or whatever other team.

[billyfly]

I see the point you're trying to make, however MLS is a league designed through and through for parity. Designed so that no one club can rule in and out. Designed so that everyone's going to have success here and there.

While the club your grandad supported was never really supposed to succeed, it wasn't a let down when they never did. We're not in the same boat, we're supposed to be able to hang with everyone by playing by the same rules. We can't even do that. That's my issue.

Good counterpoint Ryan. MLS is different and we should have seen some success by now. Rhapido's point about supporting the teams and City is one dear to my heart though and I agree with him (even if I am at my wits end with all MLSEs teams)

[Ajax TFC]

They essentially play the same position target forward, and I made the comment that Alan would be a nicer fit in the current system based on his movement and athleticism..............is this not allowed?
I get that, but since we traded Gordon for Johnson, should we not be comparing which of those two are better suited to the CF position (since Johnson can play there as well)? 'cause if we still had Gordon to play up top instead of Koev, we wouldn't have Johnson

[Pookie]

The MLSE argument is stagnant and boring.

The fact of the matter is that MLSE recognized that they don't know anything about football/hockey/basketball and have essentially handed the reins to people who are experts in the field. Did they make improper decisions? perhaps. But as a fan, when you struggle with the quality of product on the pitch/ice/floor, then you have to realize that the issue lies not with MLSE trying to gouge the city's fans/enjoying losing/making money while losing, but rather with the leadership in place of that particular branch of MLSE, as I highly doubt Anselmi is phoning down to Winter and telling him to start Dunfield.



But Anselmi is the leader of this particular branch (The TFC branch) of MLSE.

While Burke and Colangelo report directly to the Board, Mariner and Winter report to him. He then reports to the Board.

[Pookie]

As an aside, I can't believe the comments on Danny K being a waste of a DP space.

Having a tough start to the year for sure but complaining about his strike rate in MLS? 9 goals in 15 career games with TFC.

End of story.

Rhapido, great story. Thanks for sharing.

[Roogsy]

As an aside, I can't believe the comments on Danny K being a waste of a DP space.

Having a tough start to the year for sure but complaining about his strike rate in MLS? 9 goals in 15 career games with TFC.

End of story.

Rhapido, great story. Thanks for sharing.

I've said it before, I will say it again, I am not down on DK. He's a great striker and will score.

The problem is with how the rest of the team is built. When stikers go cold, it's up to others to step up. If there are no others, you have done a bad job building.

[ensco]

^I don't know why so many people think that the accusation against MLSE is gouging and lack of interest in winning. They clearly benefit economically from winning teams. That is not the argument intelligent people are making.

The argument is about the corporate behaviour, generally and specifically. No suit ever pays the price, and this team has been used as a training toy to "teach" a loyal exec, Anselmi, the sports business (he has no background in soccer, or sports operations, at all). Unlike the Leafs or Raptors, it has been very clear that ultimate hire-and-fire authority rests here with a suit. Anselmi's main qualification for this job was his undiluted loyalty to Peddie, so I suspect he'll be moving along in any event.

With brings me to the real point. The new owners can't just replace Anselmi with another suit. If there is a God, he/she will whisper this, in the right person's ear, at the right time.

[Roogsy]

For perspective, consider my late grandfather back in Portugal. A card-carrying supporter ("socio") of his local first division team, Maritimo, since he was 14. Supported them until he died at age 95. Attended home games religiously until just a few years before that when his health took a tunr for the worse. His team competed but never won a league title in his lifetime. Hard to win in a league that has 2 or 3 big teams, with massive budgets. Over the years, there were promotions and relegations. There were even the odd runs deep into the domestic cup competition, and even some appearances in European tournaments, but through it all, never any true championship-winning success. I'm sure there were many times in the 80+ years that he could of packed it in and said enough's enough, this team will never win, and throw his support behind a Benfica or a Porto. But that's not what being a supporter is about.

That's why when he passed away in 2007, the club honoured him by cloaking his coffin with the team flag during the march into the cemetary, with a 4 piece mandolin quartet playing the team's official anthem.

TFC right now is not a good team. But they are still our team. And having lived in this city for so many years without one, I am still happy to say that I have one.

Nice story but hardly applicable to TFC.

TFC is not one of the have not teams like Maritimo is. We have the THIRD highest payroll in the league. Could Maritimo ever say that? We were one of the first teams in MLS to turn a sizeable profit. We were one of the top drawing teams until Seattle came into the league and knocked us off the perch. We were the FIRST team to ever get corporate sponsorships. Etc. etc. etc.

If Toronto was a small city, no corporate money was heading it's way, and it's attendance was dwarfed by other teams, you could draw a comparison. But in every signficant way, TFC is akin to the Benficas and Portos of the Portuguese league...and you tell me how the supporters of THOSE clubs would react if they had this kind of poor performance for 6 seasons? I'd really like to hear your opinion on this.

[Ajax TFC]

my apologies: when Winter was first hired and even before, I was pretty sure that I read that he was the current assistant at Ajax. After looking into it, I found that he did indeed leave in 2009. Here's the article about his departure on the official Ajax website: http://www.ajax.nl/Nieuws/Nieuwsarchief/Nieuws-artikel/Winter-vertrekt-bij-Ajax.htm
He wasn't fired, he left because he wanted a first team coaching job, and he left after winning the title, so no, he wasn't jobless because he's a bad coach
http://www.ajax.nl/upload_mm/e/9/1/172480_fullimage_09-04-27_J_Ajax-J_Vitesse_Kampioen_0119.jpg
I also found the article about Bob De Klerk leaving Ajax if anyone's interested: http://www.ajax.nl/Nieuws/Nieuwsarchief/Nieuws-artikel/De-Klerk-kiest-voor-Canadees-avontuur.htm

BTW, a little tip before people bitch about the articles being in Dutch: Google Translate is your friend ;)

Again, I'm sorry for not double checking my facts before stating them

EDIT: Well, at least I now know I'm not crazy, I managed to find at least one other person who states that he's a current (as of before he was hired here) assistant: http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/01/winter/

[Pookie]

^I don't know why so many people think that the accusation against MLSE is gouging and lack of interest in winning. They clearly benefit economically from winning teams. That is not the argument intelligent people are making.

The argument is about the corporate behaviour, generally and specifically. No suit ever pays the price, and this team has been used as a training toy to "teach" a loyal exec, Anselmi, the sports business (he has no background in soccer, or sports operations, at all). Unlike the Leafs or Raptors, it has been very clear that ultimate hire-and-fire authority rests here with a suit. Anselmi's main qualification for this job was his undiluted loyalty to Peddie, so I suspect he'll be moving along in any event.

With brings me to the real point. The new owners can't just replace Anselmi with another suit. If there is a God, he/she will whisper this, in the right person's ear, at the right time.

+1

Well put

[nfitz]

Nice story but hardly applicable to TFC.Of course it's applicable. It's the kind of story that puts the whiny twenty-somethings in this city that jump ship at the first sign of a leak to shame. Hard to believe that only 3 home games into the season, that some here are talking about burning their tickets. The lack of perspective here is really shocking.

We're called supporters ... not bandwagoners.

[Roogsy]

And we're treated like disposable consumers. It shouldn't be a surprise when the consumer acts accordingly.

[ag futbol]

Of course it's applicable. It's the kind of story that puts the whiny twenty-somethings in this city that jump ship at the first sign of a leak to shame. Hard to believe that only 3 home games into the season, that some here are talking about burning their tickets. The lack of perspective here is really shocking.

We're called supporters ... not bandwagoners.
Come on, there's more to it than that. Do you think clubs like the one given in the example changed their fans exorbitant amount for beer, pushed them to the limit for ticket prices, forced him to buy tickets to the local minor hockey team to get a flex pack, etc..? That person who was loyal to the club for so long probably had good reason to.

There are plenty of examples throughout world football of people basically thumbing their nose at the established team and going to start their own when they didn't like how things operated. Loyalty isn't a given, it's earned.

I know this team fills a void for many people who are really looking for a local team to support, but there's more to the situation than a simple oath that says we always back up this club regardless of the way it treats the people around it.

[Azerban]

When I read that Maritimo story, all I got was the sense that it's actually kind of a sick joke that the team is called Toronto FC. Just FC. Not Football Club, because it's not a club. It's a corporate entity. Yet it manages to pull on the heart strings just enough, that for a second, or longer, you push away the awareness that it's two steps away from being the Nutralite Internazionale Toronto Northmen Brought To You By Kelloggs or being relocated to New York because they didn't meet profit expectations.

It's a little bit sad.

[MartinUtd]

When I read that Maritimo story, all I got was the sense that it's actually kind of a sick joke that the team is called Toronto FC. Just FC. Not Football Club, because it's not a club. It's a corporate entity.

haha

"Toronto Football Corporation"

It has a nice ring to it.

[Wull]

they treat it as a north american sports franchise because that's all they know. We, on the other hand, expect it to be a football club similar to the ones we or our parents and grandparents grew up with. They think it belongs to them to run as a business and treat everything in that sense, we think it'll be there long after that shower are gone and our kids and grandkids will inherit our season tickets because it's our club. Unless the league goes bust or they do something extremely stupid, I think our vision will win out in the end

[nfitz]

Come on, there's more to it than that. Do you think clubs like the one given in the example changed their fans exorbitant amount for beer, pushed them to the limit for ticket prices, forced him to buy tickets to the local minor hockey team to get a flex pack, etc..?Oh here we go .... TFC beer prices are in line with other sports teams. It was even more expensive at the Impact game for Coors F&*$ing Light. It was about the same in Seattle. Ticket prices seem unchanged from last year. And no one was forced to buy hockey tickets. A few took up that offer ... which was discontinued after fans complained about it

I'm tired of the anti-MLSE posts that takes place around here every time things don't go well. And I'm tired of these bizarre "they are trying to screw us" tin-hat paranoia. It's a business ... what do you think is going to happen.

Watch ... now someone will accuse me again of being on their payroll ...

[MartinUtd]

I think beer might have been about $0.50 cheaper in Seattle but it was more expensive in LA for Bud Light/Corona. I remember Chicago was a good deal but that was 2008/09 (the game Ibrahim scored from that superb Johan Smith cross)

[Roogsy]

Oh here we go .... TFC beer prices are in line with other sports teams. It was even more expensive at the Impact game for Coors F&*$ing Light. It was about the same in Seattle. Ticket prices seem unchanged from last year. And no one was forced to buy hockey tickets. A few took up that offer ... which was discontinued after fans complained about it

I'm tired of the anti-MLSE posts that takes place around here every time things don't go well. And I'm tired of these bizarre "they are trying to screw us" tin-hat paranoia. It's a business ... what do you think is going to happen.

Watch ... now someone will accuse me again of being on their payroll ...

:lol:

Well...someone did tweet that MLSE had planted fake fans on this website. :D

[billyfly]

I want a winning team. What have we won in MLS? 6 or so out of the last 20-30 games?

[Rhapido]

Nice story but hardly applicable to TFC.

TFC is not one of the have not teams like Maritimo is. We have the THIRD highest payroll in the league. Could Maritimo ever say that? We were one of the first teams in MLS to turn a sizeable profit. We were one of the top drawing teams until Seattle came into the league and knocked us off the perch. We were the FIRST team to ever get corporate sponsorships. Etc. etc. etc.

If Toronto was a small city, no corporate money was heading it's way, and it's attendance was dwarfed by other teams, you could draw a comparison. But in every signficant way, TFC is akin to the Benficas and Portos of the Portuguese league...and you tell me how the supporters of THOSE clubs would react if they had this kind of poor performance for 6 seasons? I'd really like to hear your opinion on this.

At no point did I suggest that TFC 's financial clout is comparable to Maritimo's. Clearly, the wide disparity between Maritimo and Porto doesn't exist between TFC and, say, the defending champs in LA or even NYRB. But talking about the financial wherewithal of a team in a salary capped league is especially useless, anyways.

The point was (and is) that despite decades without silverware, he continued to follow and support the team. If anyone bumped into him walking around town, he would never deny his love and support for the club. He wasn't always happy with the team's performance but his loyalty was unshakeable. Once a supporter of the team, always a supporter of the team. That was his philosophy and I think it's safe to say it's the philosophy of most footy fans outside of NA. I am certain that along the way, there were plenty of times when my grandfather disagreed with the coach's decisions on who to start and what formation to play. I am certain that there were plenty of times that he thought there was no chance to succeed if so-and-so played the centre forward position, or if so-and-so played keeper. The few times the team was relegated, I am certain there was great disappointment and anger. But he never turned his back on the team. What I hear from some so-called fans on this board is the urge to abandon ship. Their choice, but not the behaviour of a supporter. It's the behaviour of a consumer.

Benfica's golden era was some 50 years ago. Their success is now limited to the odd domestic title. Sure, they always finish top 3 domestically, but in Europe, continental success is the true goal of any top team and they haven't had much of it for 50 years. Yet, ask 10 random Portuguese who they support among Sporting, Porto and Benfica, and I bet you half will say they are Benfiquista.

Again, not saying that supporters can't be critical of their team. But when people stop following the team, it can only be because they feel they're not getting their "money's worth" (whether they're actually at the stadium or not). Which again, is a consumer's mentality, not a supporter's.

Don't worry, Roogsy. I know that you are a true supporter, and that for as long as TFC is around, you will be here on this messageboard talking TFC. Sometimes praising the team, other times criticizing the team. But either way, you at least still give a shit about the team, and that I can respect.

[boban]

when you have a player of DP status on your bench...you know there is issues.....

Let be honest....JDG and Kovermans are holding down two important statuses ....(DP).....honestly if your going to have 3 DP's 2 0f TFC 3 spots are not worthy of this role!....As much as i like these 2 guys....having them on your team is one thing..but if its going to cost you a 2 DP spots....we should be looking elsewhere! We have non DP players that are better then our DP's! thats a problem in itself!



CB- DP CM- FRINGS ST- DP
Not trying to single you out as others have slagged 2 of or 3 DP's.
I feel bad for JDG as I feel in a system he is a good player, and for the nat team he performs.
However, on TFC his criticis to an extent is warrented. But Koevman?? Come'on.
Last season when he came he was popping all those goals everybody, inclusing the naysayers of today, were creaming there pants.
The guy goes into a slump, and now he has to be shipped out?? Mind you, in this slump he stills has 1 goal in 5 games.
Nobody in MLS produces every game!! When Henry started for NYRB he was struggling. Now last season and this he is on fire.
Every player goes in a slump, and seeing as Koevman showed he can produce, he deserves far more rope than some peopole here think.

[OgtheDim]

And we're treated like disposable consumers. It shouldn't be a surprise when the consumer acts accordingly.

The point is many many many of us are supporters, not consumers. It goes against your narrative but ...meh.............that's life.

And, as for your challenge of how supports would react to how TFC has done things.

They'd yell and scream and rant and rave.

They wouldn't quit.

And if somebody called them a consumer, they'd tell them to F off for calling them names. (I'm not saying F off to anybody....just explaining the mentality.)

[Toronto]

my apologies: when Winter was first hired and even before, I was pretty sure that I read that he was the current assistant at Ajax. After looking into it, I found that he did indeed leave in 2009. Here's the article about his departure on the official Ajax website: http://www.ajax.nl/Nieuws/Nieuwsarchief/Nieuws-artikel/Winter-vertrekt-bij-Ajax.htm
He wasn't fired, he left because he wanted a first team coaching job, and he left after winning the title, so no, he wasn't jobless because he's a bad coach
http://www.ajax.nl/upload_mm/e/9/1/172480_fullimage_09-04-27_J_Ajax-J_Vitesse_Kampioen_0119.jpg
I also found the article about Bob De Klerk leaving Ajax if anyone's interested: http://www.ajax.nl/Nieuws/Nieuwsarchief/Nieuws-artikel/De-Klerk-kiest-voor-Canadees-avontuur.htm

BTW, a little tip before people bitch about the articles being in Dutch: Google Translate is your friend ;)

Again, I'm sorry for not double checking my facts before stating them

EDIT: Well, at least I now know I'm not crazy, I managed to find at least one other person who states that he's a current (as of before he was hired here) assistant: http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/01/winter/


And judging by his results as first team manager the fact that he spent a year or so lounging around the canals in Amsterdam proves those who didn't offer him a job in Europe. RIGHT.

Enough defending the guy due to his nationality. If we was Canadian he'd be gone by now. And being part of a championship coaching staff does not make one a good coach. He could have had zero input into anything as was there simply due his playing days at the club.

[Roogsy]

Rhapido, I understand bro. But you have to understand is that supporters of those clubs accept their fate. They know their beloved little club will never see Champions League or contend for a league title unless they have one of those special "one off" years. It's different when the club is in the top tier of the league in all aspects except results. Look at Man United fans. They were winning all kinds of trophies but it doesn't mean you sit there and let management do what they want. Liverpool has a legendary history that fans can look back and dwell on, what right do they have to protest ownership? All the right in the world my friend. How much moreso this incompetently run club. They need a swift kick in the ass. If the supporters don't do it, how bad does it look when the regular fans do?

[billyfly]

This one is for Parky:

TFC supporter versus MLSE

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/billyfly21/tfc.png

[billyfly]

^This thread needed more RUSH

[Phil]

Step one this weekend was a banner that stated: Results matter. It is still early we we care about the club and its progress, no sitting back but it will be as extreme as some want.

[narduch]

^This thread needed more RUSH

At this pace, TFC will make the MLS playoffs in 2112.

[Furtado91]

RUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

best band ever.

[Azerban]

I'm actually really disappointed by the equating of 'supporting the team' and 'giving MLSE all your money forever.' If you're disappointed in the ownership and think that, by speaking with your wallet (the only form of speech corporations respect), you may force some changes that will result in long term progress for the team, that IS supporting the team.

[Rhapido]

Rhapido, I understand bro. But you have to understand is that supporters of those clubs accept their fate. They know their beloved little club will never see Champions League or contend for a league title unless they have one of those special "one off" years. It's different when the club is in the top tier of the league in all aspects except results. Look at Man United fans. They were winning all kinds of trophies but it doesn't mean you sit there and let management do what they want. Liverpool has a legendary history that fans can look back and dwell on, what right do they have to protest ownership? All the right in the world my friend. How much moreso this incompetently run club. They need a swift kick in the ass. If the supporters don't do it, how bad does it look when the regular fans do?

I agree. All of these supporters that organize protests outside of Anfield or Old Trafford because of their clube's American/foreign ownership -- they all care deeply about their team - that's why they're doing what they're doing. More power to them.

[billyfly]

RUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

best band ever.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XsYuHbXZUk

[boban]

Rhapido, I understand bro. But you have to understand is that supporters of those clubs accept their fate. They know their beloved little club will never see Champions League or contend for a league title unless they have one of those special "one off" years. It's different when the club is in the top tier of the league in all aspects except results. Look at Man United fans. They were winning all kinds of trophies but it doesn't mean you sit there and let management do what they want. Liverpool has a legendary history that fans can look back and dwell on, what right do they have to protest ownership? All the right in the world my friend. How much moreso this incompetently run club. They need a swift kick in the ass. If the supporters don't do it, how bad does it look when the regular fans do?
:drinking:

[Furtado91]

Im speechless, on one hand that's really cool and the synth parts are identical to when geddy used the synth, but on the other, it sounds so synthetic, it doesn't have a natural sound to it mixed with a synth. im torn, I want my 3 piece band covers AHAHHA.

anyhow that being said, Im for the team no matter what, but I refuse to buy season tickets and merch at full price. im proud to be from Toronto, and will be till i die. I just want to see em win it once in my lifetime (im 21 so they have time but hopefully they do it sooner rather than later).

[billyfly]

I once tried to convince Paul B to bring her here for the halftime show.

YYZ til I die.

LOL

[Abou Sky]

Step one this weekend was a banner that stated: Results matter. It is still early we we care about the club and its progress, no sitting back but it will be as extreme as some want.

I noticed that, my $.02 on that, MLSE likely didn't notice, players likely did, probably didn't do much to 'boost morale'

[brad]

I'm actually really disappointed by the equating of 'supporting the team' and 'giving MLSE all your money forever.' If you're disappointed in the ownership and think that, by speaking with your wallet (the only form of speech corporations respect), you may force some changes that will result in long term progress for the team, that IS supporting the team.

In protesting the Glazers, thousands of Man Utd supporters gave up their seasons and don't set foot in Old Trafford anymore for exactly this reason (and I'm not talking about plastics here, I'm talking about a lot of folks that have been supporting the club for decades)

[jazzy]

You're absolutely right. We need to stop giving the club a pass on league competition because we beat the odds in the CCL. Our success against LA over a month ago shouldn't be used to downplay the crisis this club is facing.

I can handle losing if we still put up a fight and bust our asses, but you're right. We are becoming an embarrasment. I mean fucking Vancouver has 8 points this season. Even Montreal has only one win this season - and it was from a match against us! I feel like I can barely look people in the eyes when I'm at the bar watching us play. I know that the team can't carry on this way and I know we'll eventually find our form, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.[/QUOTE]

^this,....and so what if Winter leaves ,...what next,....we really have no options ,..again till next year, sound familiar?....this is what everyone gets frustrated about,....I'll go to every game, I love soccer, support my team, but shouldn't we feel discouraged?....for some reason I feel burned out , of perpetual hope....lol,...I sincerely feel other teams love coming into TO now to gain a highly unusual 3 pts on the road....Here's my problem,...yesterday as usual Johnson was determinedly charging down the flank with the ball , when 3 chivas players surround him and NO ONE is even close to help out or demand the ball. Now that is never seen with a successful team...What is he supposed to do go around 3 men? ,....if we did that to opposing teams they would pass out to the uncovered man and break out with an all to familiar dangerous counter-attack......It seems players are not together,..and there are too many individual efforts.......BTW only Frings and Cann...had the balls came over to salute the SG's.....great class, and I clapped for that bit of valour...........and I will repeat myself what did Avila do to offend Winter's , his passes were dangerous and spot on.......where has he been?....Cann surprised me with his lightness of foot and definite heart...Again it's our middle.....not distributing up front , not helping out at back.....realistically we're so far from progress , even this year...it's a fact......I'll have to live with it........support the team, of course , but dreading becoming another 'leaf fan.

[Furtado91]

I once tried to convince Paul B to bring her here for the halftime show.

YYZ til I die.

LOL

Maybe thats what we need to boost morale. RUSH BANNERS WILL NOW BE MADE FOR FUTURE GAMES. if their music can soothe an aching heart, Motivate you to better yourself, and just make good old fashioned kick ass rock and roll, then surely they can burn a flame under the players asses and play like no tomorrow.

ANTHEM OF THE HEART AND ANTHEM OF THE MIND. A FUNERAL DIRGE FOR EYES GONE BLIND.

[billyfly]

A banner like this will go a long way to something that's for sure.

http://www.rockbandaide.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Mooseknuckle1.jpg

[Furtado91]

^^^^ we could have koevermans head, frings head, and maybe kocic AHAHHA>

[billyfly]

Alex Lifeson's Mooseknuckle commands you to play better!

[Phil]

It's the same as saying 'win you must'. We also hung a ton of supportive banners too, just trying to highlight the importance of sending the message that we need some points in the league.

[Ajax TFC]

And judging by his results as first team manager the fact that he spent a year or so lounging around the canals in Amsterdam proves those who didn't offer him a job in Europe. RIGHT.

Enough defending the guy due to his nationality. If we was Canadian he'd be gone by now. And being part of a championship coaching staff does not make one a good coach. He could have had zero input into anything as was there simply due his playing days at the club.
he was the HEAD coach of the team. That's a bit more of role than just being part of the staff. Look, I can understand you calling him a bad manager based on his performance here, but to say that the fact that he didn't have a job immediately prior to coming here proves that he's a bad coach is ridiculous, especially since the last thing he did was coach Jong Ajax to the title. There would've been nothing else for people to judge him on at the time, so you can't say that they didn't hire him because he was a bad coach. I don't defend him because he's Dutch, I defend him because of his philosophy. If he goes, I want someone with a similar football philosophy brought in. But more relevant to right now, I'm defending him against your ridiculous accusation that the reason he was job searching for two years was because he's a bad coach.

[Rhapido]

I'm actually really disappointed by the equating of 'supporting the team' and 'giving MLSE all your money forever.' If you're disappointed in the ownership and think that, by speaking with your wallet (the only form of speech corporations respect), you may force some changes that will result in long term progress for the team, that IS supporting the team.

It's not about spending money at all. It's about whether you're emotionally invested in the team. I'm less bothered by those that choose to stay home but at least still watch on TV and/or follow them in the papers and such, than by those that give up on the team and the league altogether. To cross into hockey for a quick second, worse still are those that park at Yorkdale and take the subway down to the ACC for the Leaf game, wearing the visiting team's jersey, and then cheer against their hometown's team. You can probably guess why they're choosing to wear that Pens or Habs jersey, and it's not because they want to send a message to MLSE.

[narduch]

he was the HEAD coach of the team.

A youth team though. Which is an entirely different set of circumstances than coaching men/professionals in a real league.

[Roogsy]

I'm actually really disappointed by the equating of 'supporting the team' and 'giving MLSE all your money forever.' If you're disappointed in the ownership and think that, by speaking with your wallet (the only form of speech corporations respect), you may force some changes that will result in long term progress for the team, that IS supporting the team.

Bang on.

[narduch]

To cross into hockey for a quick second, worse still are those that park at Yorkdale and take the subway down to the ACC for the Leaf game, wearing the visiting team's jersey, and then cheer against their hometown's team. You can probably guess why they're choosing to wear that Pens or Habs jersey, and it's not because they want to send a message to MLSE.

Careful, you are probably offending a few people on this forum. People who sing 'Toronto 'til I die' at BMO Field with little sense of irony...

/I do agree with you though...

[billyfly]

Careful, you are probably offending a few people on this forum. People who sing 'Toronto 'til I die' at BMO Field with little sense of irony...

/I do agree with you though...


What have I been saying for years?

But off topic for this thread so I'll stop commenting on this particular topic.

[Ajax TFC]

A youth team though. Which is an entirely different set of circumstances than coaching men/professionals in a real league.
yes, I know that, we've already established the fact that he was the youth team coach, but toronto (the poster, not the city) keeps downgrading Winter's position to try to prove his points. I said that Winter left his job as coach of Jong Ajax having one the league (that wouldn't imply that he's a bad coach would it?), and in his response he downpays it to "being part of a championship coaching staff" even though it had already been established that he was the head coach of the team. He does it to try to further his argument that he had to have been a shitty manager back in Europe, or else he would've had a job.

[Abou Sky]

It's the same as saying 'win you must'. We also hung a ton of supportive banners too, just trying to highlight the importance of sending the message that we need some points in the league.

I don't really agree, I think 'win you must' shows that our hearts are there with them. 'Results Matter' is more like pointing out that they lost the last 4 games, which I am pretty sure they already know about.

OTOH, I would be TOTALLY down with having a picture of Dan Kennedy's mom posted up saying 'Best breakfast in bed ever'

But I am a jerk like that, so that is how I roll...

[Whoop]

He was the assistant with the main youth team (think U-19) and the head coach of the 2nd team (think U-17).

The chain at Ajax is Ajax 1 (main team) - Jong Ajax (reserve team) - Ajax A1 (main youth team) - Ajax A2 (2nd youth team) - then B1, B2, C1, C2, etc.

He was out of work for 18 months.

If he was a highly thought of coach, Ajax would have tried to keep him around or he could have latched on with a smaller 1st division Dutch club.

[trane]

Nope.

Trust me if AC Milan were as shit, the stands would be empty, and the supporters would demand change. Support is a two way street.

[trane]

When I read that Maritimo story, all I got was the sense that it's actually kind of a sick joke that the team is called Toronto FC. Just FC. Not Football Club, because it's not a club. It's a corporate entity. Yet it manages to pull on the heart strings just enough, that for a second, or longer, you push away the awareness that it's two steps away from being the Nutralite Internazionale Toronto Northmen Brought To You By Kelloggs or being relocated to New York because they didn't meet profit expectations.

It's a little bit sad.

You hit it on the nose, with the basic problem, most Clubs in the world are football clubs or sport clubs, this is a franchice owned by a "Sports entertainemnt corportate interest", for a FC winning and profits are directly related, for a "sport entertainment corporation" the connection is not that direct, it is there, but it is not key, and while I agree with Roogsy, that logic dictates that owner ship is not, bcessarily the problem but currect management of the club, but I cannot help but feeling that the larger corporate culture is part of the problem. Ideal a football team is a club, who understands that winning and building the brand on success is essential for the bottom line.

[maxpower]

I would like someone to PLEASE explain to me why some people are pinning our problems on "upper management". Our problems are on the field. not upstairs. We are spending an incredible amount of money, which shows that at least the people writing the cheques aren't completely oblivious as to how to build a team. we have also build a great infrastructure for the club, which is completely down to the FO.

I guess I just don't understand why people are mad at the FO, and not say, Winter for his, in my mind at least, lack of ability to, motivate his players, implement anything close to the type of football we were promised and a lack of tactical knowledge in general.

[trane]

^ I am not sure if you noticed, but our problems did not start with Winter. Our problems started on day one.

[maxpower]

I was generous and gave the club a clean slate when they sacked mo.

[ensco]

This thread, and the two or three others around our problems, are substantively the best I've seen around here in a long time.

Lots of people saying lots of interesting things.

[Pookie]

I would like someone to PLEASE explain to me why some people are pinning our problems on "upper management". Our problems are on the field. not upstairs. We are spending an incredible amount of money, which shows that at least the people writing the cheques aren't completely oblivious as to how to build a team. we have also build a great infrastructure for the club, which is completely down to the FO.

I guess I just don't understand why people are mad at the FO, and not say, Winter for his, in my mind at least, lack of ability to, motivate his players, implement anything close to the type of football we were promised and a lack of tactical knowledge in general.

The point on spending money is well taken. Which is why I think protesting to say we "demand results" is a little silly. Anselmi would simply say, I do too and look at all this money I am spending... Which incidentally, I am collecting from all of you by way of some of the highest ticket prices in the league.

The problem is that they are not getting any return on our investment. We can either blame the stock for tanking or look at the investment advisor that picked the stock and question his ability to analyze market data and make recommendations.

In football terms, if we fired Winter and Mariner, Anselmi will conduct the interviews for their replacement. Just as he has approved and interviewed all head coaches and managers over our years of failure. He has no track record of building a winning team, in any sport, yet he has the keys. He has a track record of building profitable teams but even that has to be questioned when BMO sits 5,000 seats short of capacity and he has ok'd the spend on 3 designated players. Once MLS' cash cow in a revenue shared league, our future financial viability looks to be shaky. I don't think they are at the point of holding bottle drives but the league must be taking notice.

In short, whatever changes that need to be made or considered will go through a guy that needs a consultant to tell him what to think. Whatever evaluations need to reviewed will go through a guy that will need a consultant to tell him what he is looking at. For this team to move forward, it needs to stop going through this guy.

That should be the focus of any protest or campaign. Results will come with quality leadership, and to expect different results with the same leader is foolish. We need someone who can manage the MLS' 3rd largest empire. Value for OUR money.

[Beach_Red]

In football terms, if we fired Winter and Mariner, Anselmi will conduct the interviews for their replacement. Just as he has approved and interviewed all head coaches and managers over our years of failure. He has no track record of building a winning team, in any sport, yet he has the keys. He has a track record of building profitable teams but even that has to be questioned when BMO sits 5,000 seats short of capacity and he has ok'd the spend on 3 designated players. Once MLS' cash cow in a revenue shared league, our future financial viability looks to be shaky. I don't think they are at the point of holding bottle drives but the league must be taking notice.



Did he? I thought when MLSE got the franchise they asked the league to recommend someone and the league said, well, we've got this guy who was fired by New York but he's still under contract...

And the next time they went looking they hired a consultant who recommended Winter.

Anselmi may have approved both choices but if he ever gets questioned about it he can easily fall back on the, "They were highly recommended," excuse.

[Roogsy]

Trust me if AC Milan were as shit, the stands would be empty, and the supporters would demand change. Support is a two way street.

Some people don't get that and it boggles my mind. I never have and never will consider "support" to be equal to "mindless cheerleading".

The big clubs around the world have activist supporters groups. Here, it's frowned upon. WTF? :noidea:

[Jack]

I don't frown upon activist support, but I do frown upon some of the irrational comments thrown around.

[ginkster88]

Did he? I thought when MLSE got the franchise they asked the league to recommend someone and the league said, well, we've got this guy who was fired by New York but he's still under contract...

And the next time they went looking they hired a consultant who recommended Winter.

Anselmi may have approved both choices but if he ever gets questioned about it he can easily fall back on the, "They were highly recommended," excuse.

Indeed, MLSE paid Jurgen Klinsmann to consult on the hires.

[trane]

Some people don't get that and it boggles my mind. I never have and never will consider "support" to be equal to "mindless cheerleading".

The big clubs around the world have activist supporters groups. Here, it's frowned upon. WTF? :noidea:

It is frustrating and it seems to push away some loyal supporters every year. I think it is a cultural thing.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It is frustrating and it seems to push away some loyal supporters every year. I think it is a cultural thing.

Are you insinuating supporting the team is chasing loyal supporters away? Please explain.

[ginkster88]

Are you insinuating supporting the team is chasing loyal supporters away? Please explain.

Supporters against activist supporters are pushing activist supporters away.

That's what he's saying.

[DaBandit]

I heard on HNIC the proposed sale of MLSE has hit some roadblocks, as the Competition Bureau has some issues with Bell owing both the Leafs and the Canadiens (or something like that).

Well thats the worst news I have heard in a long time..

[Fort York Redcoat]

Supporters against activist supporters are pushing activist supporters away.

That's what he's saying.

There are different types of support. There's no wrong way unless it causes harm to another. I don't wish to degrade activist support. I just haven't seen any I'd deem active in a while now.

[Belfast_Boy]

Day one of my personal protest was hard but I managed through it. didn't buy a beer, coke, sandwich, butty, shirt, hat, hot dog or anything else.
think MLSE are feeling the pain already.

Fight Da POWER!

http://vectormadness.com/preview/sign/large/fight_the_power_vector_sticker.jpg

[C.Ronaldo]

^Drink free since MoJee

welcome to the club

[moralis]

This Jennifer Benson woman has actual names in the so-called Red Patch Boys group scandal:

#TFC (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23TFC) Supporters Group Scandal - Red Patch Boys' R.Wagner, P.Lewicki, B.Aguilar, J.Depoe & 'Parkdale' on MLSE payroll.. Pres. P.Tobin = clean

https://twitter.com/#!/wordonbaystreet/status/191695275109253120

This B***** better have proof.

[Jack]

It's a troll. Pretty funny, but nothing further than that g:D

[Roogsy]

Yeah, I saw that. I am calling BS.

I know the RPBs around here won't want to address this issue publicly, because frankly it borders on slander and they don't want to give it more light. But as someone who used to be part of the group and now isn't, I think I have a unique perspective on this and I can tell you that the group itself makes extraordinary efforts to do things clean and beneficial to all fans, while trying to benefit the membership first and foremost. It's how it should be. If I recall correctly, there are times where the team makes tickets available in 112 for Red Patch Boys, and they do so through the executive of the group (mentioned in the tweet). I don't see anything wrong with that and if that is what this chick is talking about, she is casting a very insignificant practice in a poor light for the sake of juicy gossip.

False accusations don't need anymore attention than that.

[trane]

Are you insinuating supporting the team is chasing loyal supporters away? Please explain.

Supporters who support in a more traditional football way, i.e. no blind loyalty to the club, have left the group because they have not liked the suggestion made by others, that they it should be "TFC love it, or leave it"


Do not get me wrong, they love tfc, but they will not stop pushing for better.

[trane]

Supporters against activist supporters are pushing activist supporters away.

That's what he's saying.

Exactly.

[nfitz]

I don't see anything wrong with that and if that is what this chick is talking about, she is casting a very insignificant practice in a poor light for the sake of juicy gossip.The accusation (absurd as it sounds) is free seasons tickets. I don't see anything wrong with them simply passing extra tickets for the section from time to time to pass around. And I don't see anything wrong with a free seasons ticket for the capo (not that ever has happened AFAIK).

As much as I expect that one doesn't to give publicity to false accusations, I'd think it was best interest of everyone to make it clear that this doesn't happen.

[Roogsy]

Since RPB does not have a default capo for every game (nor Usector) it would be near impossible to give "free" seasons to them.

What the team does do, and I know from personal experience, is give passes to the restricted areas of the stadium during the game so the capos can move freely.

No biggy in my mind.

[Phil]

There are no free tickets at all for us. No tickets for Capo's, no tickets for the drum, nothing.

I paid and I know for a fact all members who are seasons ticket holders pay the same as everyone else in that stadium for their tickets. It's totally baseless what is being written on that twitter account.

[Phil]

Since RPB does not have a default capo for every game (nor Usector) it would be near impossible to give "free" seasons to them.

What the team does do, and I know from personal experience, is give passes to the restricted areas of the stadium during the game so the capos can move freely.

No biggy in my mind.

They don't even do that anymore. Security knows that people stand on that thing and let them do what they are passionte about. No need to add more to that process, common sense is the order of the day.

[nfitz]

Next thing she'll be tweeting is the number of media who get free tickets to each game, not to mention a roof, heating, and free food. :)

[moralis]

That's not her actual pic, it's a stock photo:

http://www.tineye.com/search/4c88f883c161a605a2d08496656e96794c1a07d7/

Seems someone wants to cause some serious problems. We should find out who he or she is.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Supporters who support in a more traditional football way, i.e. no blind loyalty to the club, have left the group because they have not liked the suggestion made by others, that they it should be "TFC love it, or leave it"


Do not get me wrong, they love tfc, but they will not stop pushing for better.

Totally disagree with your definition of traditional supporters. I know plenty that will moan after the match but give their all in the stands on the day. If it gets bad they organize and do something. Something is better than nothing. We have the means to make ourselves heard and shutting up and voting with your wallet is a drop in the bucket. I can see why this method would be frustrating.

What your describing is pretty much what I see in every other sport around me. TEAM gets bad, people stay away, team go away. Nothing attractively traditional about it.

[Richard]

That's not her actual pic, it's a stock photo:

http://www.tineye.com/search/4c88f883c161a605a2d08496656e96794c1a07d7/

Seems someone wants to cause some serious problems. We should find out who he or she is.

Just ignore it, sounds like the person is just an attention whore

[Boris]

meh - these arent the droids youre looking for.

[Derko]

Finishing,finishing!!!
The thing that really bothers me as a Supporter, was what I heard in the stands in my row in 110, some fans calling for Winter to '...Bring on Soolsma...' idiots didn't even know Soolsma was not even on the bench, Fickle Fans they can be!!

Football is a game of momentum, you get a chance, you bury it, and the momentum carries.

I will keep supporting, this team, but am getting tired of the almosts, and missed chances.

[trane]

Totally disagree with your definition of traditional supporters. I know plenty that will moan after the match but give their all in the stands on the day. If it gets bad they organize and do something. Something is better than nothing. We have the means to make ourselves heard and shutting up and voting with your wallet is a drop in the bucket. I can see why this method would be frustrating.

What your describing is pretty much what I see in every other sport around me. TEAM gets bad, people stay away, team go away. Nothing attractively traditional about it.

There is not point in discussing this because you do not get it, and you never will. You were not raised in a football ONLY culture, and will never understand the reality for us that were, and that the team is more then a team to us, but a representative of our city, our country, sometimes our political and religious believes (which is not always good I admit).

Here, a team calls itself Toronto FC, and now the city is supposed to support every decision it makes blindly. No you proof to me that you deserve to be Toronto's team.
In Milano the two teams fight over who is Milano's team. Because the team has to work to be able to say WE ARE MILANO. It is not automatic that you have the support of Milano if you do not make the city proud. Supporters on the other hand of one club or the other demand that the club they love, do whatever it takes to make then and the City proud, and do not support blindly simply because they love the club. They are not cheerleaders, they are supporters.

[Roogsy]

There is not point in discussing this because you do not get it, and you never will. You were not raised in a football ONLY culture, and will never understand the reality for us that were, and that the team is more then a team to us, but a representative of our city, our country, sometimes our political and religious believes (which is not always good I admit).

Here, a team calls itself Toronto FC, and now the city is supposed to support every decision it makes blindly. No you proof to me that you deserve to be Toronto's team.
In Milano the two teams fight over who is Milano's team. Because the team has to work to be able to say WE ARE MILANO. It is not automatic that you have the support of Milano if you do not make the city proud. Supporters on the other hand of one club or the other demand that the club they love, do whatever it takes to make then and the City proud, and do not support blindly simply because they love the club. They are not cheerleaders, they are supporters.

My brother from another mother.

I think you're bang on. It's an old world vs new world thing that is influencing perspectives.

[Fort York Redcoat]

There is not point in discussing this because you do not get it, and you never will. You were not raised in a football ONLY culture, and will never understand the reality for us that were, and that the team is more then a team to us, but a representative of our city, our country, sometimes our political and religious believes (which is not always good I admit).

Here, a team calls itself Toronto FC, and now the city is supposed to support every decision it makes blindly. No you proof to me that you deserve to be Toronto's team.
In Milano the two teams fight over who is Milano's team. Because the team has to work to be able to say WE ARE MILANO. It is not automatic that you have the support of Milano if you do not make the city proud. Supporters on the other hand of one club or the other demand that the club they love, do whatever it takes to make then and the City proud, and do not support blindly simply because they love the club. They are not cheerleaders, they are supporters.

So...skipping the personal crap- What is it you are classifying as activist? What is it you'll do when you say "Whatever it takes"?

[Oldtimer]

There is not point in discussing this because you do not get it, and you never will.

No need to get personal here. If we don't see some politeness, this thread will be closed. Thank-you for your understanding.

[trane]

I was not trying to be an ass.

[trane]

My brother from another mother.

I think you're bang on. It's an old world vs new world thing that is influencing perspectives.

I new you would understand.

[trane]

So...skipping the personal crap- What is it you are classifying as activist? What is it you'll do when you say "Whatever it takes"?

You cannot always win. But you can always play hard and well. We were knocked out of the CL by Barca, but the city is proud of Milan, because they did what it took to have a chance against the best team in the world at the moment. Smaller team do not have the resources Milan has, but they introduce styles of play that are the most likely to get them the points, despite the lack of talent.

[Beach_Red]

There is not point in discussing this because you do not get it, and you never will. You were not raised in a football ONLY culture, and will never understand the reality for us that were, and that the team is more then a team to us, but a representative of our city, our country, sometimes our political and religious believes (which is not always good I admit).



Not good for people trying to get along with each other but great for people who want to exploit that kind of thing.

[__wowza]

Here, a team calls itself Toronto FC, and now the city is supposed to support every decision it makes blindly. No you proof to me that you deserve to be Toronto's team.
In Milano the two teams fight over who is Milano's team. Because the team has to work to be able to say WE ARE MILANO. It is not automatic that you have the support of Milano if you do not make the city proud. Supporters on the other hand of one club or the other demand that the club they love, do whatever it takes to make then and the City proud, and do not support blindly simply because they love the club. They are not cheerleaders, they are supporters.

i get the sentiment, but i believe the argument fails to hit the mark.
support will always be divided, different people support in different ways and that will always be the case. i compare it to the transmetropolitan's take on religion (this is the closest i will ever get to a religious topic, but unfortunately it's the best analogy i can find).

in the transmetropolitan "future", everyone has their own religion because no one person believes the exact same thing no matter how tight the dogma is. some people pray in public, some in private, some worship saints/texts/multiple deities, others don't. that's how i view support here. you'll always have people who believe that sometimes we border on cheerleading, some who believe that you should make a statement, some who support with their time, others with their time and wallets. what the transmetropolitan argues is that arguing any of these "personal religions" into the ground is pointless as they all follow the same set of basic principles.

in our case, we're all invested in TFC.
we're because in some way, shape or form, we care.

some of us have learned to stop caring financially and attending games or buying concessions, some of us haven't reached a point where it makes sense to them. some have stopped singing and started booing, others never say die. my point is, like it or not, TFC is the only team we have. they're toronto's team by choice, because it's impossible to argue that they would exist without the support groups like this (usec, north end, etc) provide them. the stadium cannot be filled to even half capacity with fairweather fans.


instead of picking apart the differences and discussing the support that divides us, i rarely see any posts about the support that unites us. let people support in their own way, sing when they want to, stand when they want to, and join in if you feel slighted to. the last thing we need with a team that's doing badly is the supporters starting to go at one another (i realize that may not have been your intention, you were simply stating your views). let's focus on why we're all here and stop looking for reasons why we shouldn't be.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Possible new avatar?


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3sMdBxJK-Z0AVwBSzZtLxaZaXW-CisI073xJ9Y5f21YkY5BjkIo2C_4PGBg


(It's from the comic book Transmetropolitan.)

[__wowza]

Possible new avatar?


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3sMdBxJK-Z0AVwBSzZtLxaZaXW-CisI073xJ9Y5f21YkY5BjkIo2C_4PGBg


(It's from the comic book Transmetropolitan.)

http://i.imm.io/mjT9.jpeg

[trane]

i get the sentiment, but i believe the argument fails to hit the mark.
support will always be divided, different people support in different ways and that will always be the case. i compare it to the transmetropolitan's take on religion (this is the closest i will ever get to a religious topic, but unfortunately it's the best analogy i can find).

in the transmetropolitan "future", everyone has their own religion because no one person believes the exact same thing no matter how tight the dogma is. some people pray in public, some in private, some worship saints/texts/multiple deities, others don't. that's how i view support here. you'll always have people who believe that sometimes we border on cheerleading, some who believe that you should make a statement, some who support with their time, others with their time and wallets. what the transmetropolitan argues is that arguing any of these "personal religions" into the ground is pointless as they all follow the same set of basic principles.

in our case, we're all invested in TFC.
we're because in some way, shape or form, we care.

some of us have learned to stop caring financially and attending games or buying concessions, some of us haven't reached a point where it makes sense to them. some have stopped singing and started booing, others never say die. my point is, like it or not, TFC is the only team we have. they're toronto's team by choice, because it's impossible to argue that they would exist without the support groups like this (usec, north end, etc) provide them. the stadium cannot be filled to even half capacity with fairweather fans.


instead of picking apart the differences and discussing the support that divides us, i rarely see any posts about the support that unites us. let people support in their own way, sing when they want to, stand when they want to, and join in if you feel slighted to. the last thing we need with a team that's doing badly is the supporters starting to go at one another (i realize that may not have been your intention, you were simply stating your views). let's focus on why we're all here and stop looking for reasons why we shouldn't be.

Let me just say this it is not ( I will use the term that has been used) the activist supporters that attack the non activist supporters, it is almost always the activists supporters being attacked for being fair weather and disloyal.

[Rene Kingsriver]

I had to post this pic from Sportsnet, look at Dunfield's face

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/04/14/koevermans_danny640_640.jpg

[Rhapido]

Supporters who support in a more traditional football way, i.e. no blind loyalty to the club, have left the group because they have not liked the suggestion made by others, that they it should be "TFC love it, or leave it"

Can someone explain "blind loyalty to the club"? Are these "blindly loyal" fans walking around as we speak saying this team is doing just fine, thank you? I'd like to know on the off chance I bump into one next time I'm at BMO.

[Rhapido]

There is not point in discussing this because you do not get it, and you never will. You were not raised in a football ONLY culture, and will never understand the reality for us that were, and that the team is more then a team to us, but a representative of our city, our country, sometimes our political and religious believes (which is not always good I admit).

Here, a team calls itself Toronto FC, and now the city is supposed to support every decision it makes blindly. No you proof to me that you deserve to be Toronto's team.
In Milano the two teams fight over who is Milano's team. Because the team has to work to be able to say WE ARE MILANO. It is not automatic that you have the support of Milano if you do not make the city proud. Supporters on the other hand of one club or the other demand that the club they love, do whatever it takes to make then and the City proud, and do not support blindly simply because they love the club. They are not cheerleaders, they are supporters.

Just a tad condescending, dontcha think?

I suspect Redcoat's point is that there are supporters who question the team's decisions AND CAN STILL show up at the stadium in support of the team. I am sure there are plenty in 112 that come home hoarse after the game, but still have enough left of their vocal cords to lament about how shite Dunfield is, how overpaid De Guz is and how Avila and Silva should be getting the starts.

One thing you will never, ever see in Milano is an Inter or Milan supporter so frustrated by his team that he turns to the cross-town rival in support. Once you become an Inter or a Milan supporter (and some become so at birth), you remain one the rest of your life. That's the way it is just about everywhere else in the world.

[Oldtimer]

One thing you will never, ever see in Milano is an Inter or Milan supporter so frustrated by his team that he turns to the cross-town rival in support. Once you become an Inter or a Milan supporter (and some become so at birth), you remain one the rest of your life. That's the way it is just about everywhere else in the world.

Well put. Or a Roma fan become a Lazio fan, or a Man City fan become a Man United fan...

[trane]

Rhapido and oldtimer,

Your comments make it clear that you have no clue about what I am talking about, it has nothing to do with supporting a crosstown rival.

And you trying to tell me how it works in my home country and city is bit funny. I have been an supporter of Milan since about 1975, when I was a boy in Milano, Italy. Anyway you have no idea of what you are talking about, I will leave it at that.

Again I am not telling you how to support you keep on telling me what it is to be supporter and I am telling you that it runs contrary to what I know is the reality in my home city and country.

By the way so that you understand the rivalry between Roma and Lazio is deeper then between Inter and Milan, we call each other cousins, we are rivals but there is not the same hate.
E

[Beach_Red]

Well put. Or a Roma fan become a Lazio fan, or a Man City fan become a Man United fan...

But it did take decades for those teams to develop that kind of following, didn't it? And doesn't each one of those teams have its own, distinct personality that is a reflection of the supporters?

Maybe someday TFC will have a personality and maybe it'll even be one that has something to do with the supporters and not just one purchased by the corporate ownership. In fact, what we're going through now is how that personality will be developed.

[Canary_canuck]

I moved to near Norwich in England when I was 12 and, as a family, we " adopted " the Canaries as a tangible expression of our commitment to our new community. This was very easy because Norwich, despite its many historic and architectural attractions, had virtually no other outlet for waving the local flag. This is still the case over 50 years later so the club enjoys a very loyal fan base and owners who are passionate about their team ( Delia Smith's " Let's be having you " rant personifies this thinking ). Toronto, by contrast is a massive, multi-cultural and young ( historically ) city so the ties that bind are more amorphous. There is also a gulf between fans and owners that is exceptionally wide ( perhaps matched now by the situation at Blackburn with similarly destructive consequences ). I really admire the " never say die " supporters, they are the lifeblood of any club but with so many other options ( including Sportsnet World ) I have chosen to dispense with the frustration and heartache until a more football focussed FO is in place. Call me a fairweather fan if you will ( something I have never been hitherto with lifelong attachments, often tested, to Norwich and Manchester City ) but I hope one day my sons and I can rejoin the faithful who are keeping the club alive nothwithstanding the ownership situation.

[Oldtimer]

By the way so that you understand the rivalry between Roma and Lazio is deeper then between Inter and Milan, we call each other cousins, we are rivals but there is not the same hate.
E

I know that, a friend of mine is a Roma fan. The hate runs deep.

[tfcleeds]

Try being a Leeds supporter...I support them, week in, week out, even though they're shite. And I know that short of a gazillionaire buying the club, we will NEVER win the Prem League title as long as I live. Promotion to the Premier League and maybe the odd cup run will be as good as it ever gets for us.

[__wowza]

I know that, a friend of mine is a Roma fan. The hate runs deep.

a friend and i are on opposite sides of the old firm. i hear ya.

[Oldtimer]

Try being a Leeds supporter...I support them, week in, week out, even though they're shite. And I know that short of a gazillionaire buying the club, we will NEVER win the Prem League title as long as I live. Promotion to the Premier League and maybe the odd cup run will be as good as it ever gets for us.

I understand how you feel.

I know an elderly English gentleman whose club in England hasn't won anything in probably decades. He's not a supporter or a die-hard TFC fan, but he is a SSH. He was more upset last year about having too many evening games than he was about the TFC's record. To him, having an afternoon of footy followed by some time in the pub with his pals is what is important. His home club in England doesn't win, and he enjoyed football there, so why not do the same here? Evening games wrecked that because it was too late to go to the pub afterwards.

[tfcleeds]

^He could have always gone to the pub beforehand...;)But yeah...one of the frustrating things is that the kickoff times are all over the place. Although once in awhile it is nice to have night games in the summer when it is cooler in the evenings, but I don't mind afternoon kickoffs myself.

[Torontotonto]

[QUOTE=Torontotonto;1473492]Never expected it to get this bad, however after the epic night at Rogers Centre and advancing in CCL, it was an early peak to our season, then our field general Frings goes down in Seattle, then Frei in training, I got that old Toronto feeling that seems to encompass all of our teams when we are finally looking forward to a season full of promise.

"Through the Highs and the Lows"
Cant get much lower from here I hope.
Onward and Upward Boys...

Success in VI.
how about,
Success in Game VI. <---This...Come on you REDS
might be more appropriate for now.

Edit

[Derko]

Well put. Or a Roma fan become a Lazio fan, or a Man City fan become a Man United fan...

That's called loyalty, is it not, which unfortunately most Toronto fans (all sports) are not. They are, I don't like the term, but bandwagon jumpers that Toronto media has brainwashed fans to be, in my opinion.