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Lucky Strike
04-07-2012, 01:02 PM
Who needs another team when TFC beats itself?

MartinUtd
04-07-2012, 01:08 PM
The Toronto FC Gong Show Takes It's Wacky Variety Of Sports Entertainment On The Road To Montreal!

Starring:

The Two Million Dollar Man - Julian DeGuzman

His Faithful Sidekick - Terry Dunfield

And The Wildcard - Ty Harden

Pick Up Your Points On The Way Out The Door.

Beach_Red
04-07-2012, 01:09 PM
At least TSN doesn"t bother with a postgame show and goes directly to curling.

ag futbol
04-07-2012, 01:10 PM
My thoughts on this game:

5M2R3P-IN-Q&feature=related

Gazza
04-07-2012, 01:10 PM
Has apathy set in yet?

AmherstNY_TFC
04-07-2012, 01:11 PM
Wow....just...wow.

Just when you don't think they can sink any lower, they manage to find a way. Lifeless, listless, laughable. Remind me again who the expansion team was?

I didn't drive from Buffalo to watch this horrorshow. So...there's that.

AlanO
04-07-2012, 01:12 PM
Ugh.

The forwards were okay, and Kocic had some big saves, but that's about it.

Let's try Stinson and Burgos in the midfield. Things can't get any worse, might as well see what the kids can do.

Soccerpro
04-07-2012, 01:16 PM
it was clear before the season started that Dunfield and Ty Harden aren't good enough for MLS. 95% of TFC fans knew it. I'm very disappointed in Winter.

WHo would have thought 4 games into the season that TFC would already be out of the playoffs.

rocker
04-07-2012, 01:16 PM
Just dumb mistakes all around.

De Guz and Dunfield were useless, like a black hole in the midfield. So nothing got going forward, making Koevermans' job harder. We can't just bypass the midfield and shoot high balls for Koevermans to take down when he's got defenders on him.
Ty Harden put Emory in a really bad position, which led to Emory's red -- although if Emory lets the player run, I'd take my chances with Kocic making the save. But it's pretty much the same thing De Guz did against Santos, but outside the box.

We did have chances though... the save on Koevermans... the ball on the line that Montreal cleared...

With a final score of 2-1, it just goes to show how fine-edged results can be. If we didn't give up stupid goals and actually had a stud at CB, we'd be tied at the very least.

Kilgore Trout
04-07-2012, 01:17 PM
Has apathy set in yet?

Not for me, not yet.

I am not denying that the team's defense is horrible right now, but we have Cann returning soon, Williams a bit later, and most importantly Frings to shore up in the midfield.

Making it into the playoffs is not yet an impossible dream. The Eastern Conference is fairly weak (the new playoff rules will definitely play in TFC's favour), and TFC are only four games in- defeats or not. Two wins against Chivas and Chicago in the next two weeks, at home, and this club is right back in it.

Moreover, I think the only really shameful result was losing to Columbus. This Montreal defeat hurts, no doubt, but I don't think the Impact are a writeoff, expansion or not. I think they can take plenty of points at home in the MLS. San Jose is a better team right now than anyone is giving them credit for, and Seattle are great at home.

If it's early May and we don't have at least 6-9 points, it might be time to panic, or stop caring.

Koev's goal means a lot. This team can score. It just needs to defend better. I think having Cann back and Frings back will already make a huge difference. I rate Williams for later in the season as well.

jloome
04-07-2012, 01:18 PM
Just dumb mistakes all around.

De Guz and Dunfield were useless, like a black hole in the midfield. So nothing got going forward, making Koevermans' job harder. We can't just bypass the midfield and shoot high balls for Koevermans to take down when he's got defenders on him.
Ty Harden put Emory in a really bad position, which led to Emory's red -- although if Emory lets the player run, I'd take my chances with Kocic making the save. But it's pretty much the same thing De Guz did against Santos, but outside the box.

We did have chances though... the save on Koevermans... the ball on the line that Montreal cleared...

With a final score of 2-1, it just goes to show how fine-edged results can be. If we didn't give up stupid goals and actually had a stud at CB, we'd be tied at the very least.

But as Soccerpro notes, we knew before the season where our weaknesses are. We're starting players of backup quality. Can't expect to win doing that.

rocker
04-07-2012, 01:19 PM
Ugh.

The forwards were okay, and Kocic had some big saves, but that's about it.

Let's try Stinson and Burgos in the midfield. Things can't get any worse, might as well see what the kids can do.

I agree. I'm willing to see what those kids can do. Gotta be better than De Guzman and Dunfield at this point.

De Guzman keeps doing those rash challenges or he lashes out trying to stop guys who are running past him -- Dunfield has an issue with rash challenges when he knows he's caught -- in previous games he was passing with tackles actually.

I also thought TFC played better when they had Silva on in the midfield, since he can battle physically and has a good sense of what to do, and has skill on the ball. Start Silva.

Code Red
04-07-2012, 01:30 PM
For the love of God........ Dunfield / Harden / de Guzman MUST GO!

These are liabilities that are costing us games, perhaps even this entire season!

There's no words to describe the start to the season, just a massive, epic FAIL!

TFC USA
04-07-2012, 01:32 PM
The team is shit.

There's no bullshitting this storyline at all. We have 1 win in 8 games and haven't led for even 1 second in MLS play.

And Harden, Dunfield, and JDG need to go.

TFC07
04-07-2012, 01:35 PM
For the love of God........ Dunfield / Harden / de Guzman MUST GO!

These are liabilities that are costing us games, perhaps even this entire season!

There's no words to describe the start to the season, just a massive, epic FAIL!

We need to find way to get this message across to Winter and management ASAP! These guys need to be benched!

boban
04-07-2012, 01:35 PM
Cann has been on the bench for the past 5 or so games.
Anyone know why he isn't seeing any minutes?
There seem to have some little bit of stability there last year before he went down.

boban
04-07-2012, 01:37 PM
We need to find way to get this message across to Winter and management ASAP! These guys need to be benched!

Oh yeah , that's right.
Seems to be doing alot of good taking this approach with the Leafs. :picard:

TFC USA
04-07-2012, 01:49 PM
So we've now given Vancouver and Montreal their first MLS wins, Seattle their first road win in MLS, any other fucking "FIRSTS" we give to other teams?

ryan
04-07-2012, 01:59 PM
Was RJ's tunnel vision always this bad?

In our last dangerous possession, he had the ball, Silva was streaking into the middle of the box with nothing but space...and he pretended he wasn't even there. Wouldn't have been a difficult ball to play, nobody was in that space and both defenders marking Silva were on the wrong side.

I just don't get it. Players just aren't seeing the plays that are there and just lobbing it in because they don't know what else to do.

Oldtimer
04-07-2012, 02:00 PM
My own feeling is that the team was actually built around Frings, for good or for bad.
Without Frings, this team cannot win.

The offense is decent enough. The defensive problems were not properly addressed, and this falls squarely on Mariner's shoulders.

ryan
04-07-2012, 02:00 PM
So we've now given Vancouver and Montreal their first MLS wins, Seattle their first road win in MLS, any other fucking "FIRSTS" we give to other teams?

Thankfully we don't have to play FC Edmonton in the ACC!

Couchy81
04-07-2012, 02:03 PM
Was RJ's tunnel vision always this bad?

In our last dangerous possession, he had the ball, Silva was streaking into the middle of the box with nothing but space...and he pretended he wasn't even there. Wouldn't have been a difficult ball to play, nobody was in that space and both defenders marking Silva were on the wrong side.

I just don't get it. Players just aren't seeing the plays that are there and just lobbing it in because they don't know what else to do.

Yea I let out a big sigh when I saw that as well, he had time and space, looked up, and launched it to no-one. What a let down when the game is on the line with the final possession of the game.



Also I agree Harden and Dunfield need to be benched, they are not playing starter quality football right now, even for MLS standards, because every other MLS starter makes them look stupid. JDG needs to go when his contract is up.

RealG-TFC
04-07-2012, 02:03 PM
Can we start playing avila, silva and burgos please? You know, people that can actually pass.

BayernTFC
04-07-2012, 02:05 PM
In our last dangerous possession, he had the ball, Silva was streaking into the middle of the box with nothing but space...and he pretended he wasn't even there. Wouldn't have been a difficult ball to play, nobody was in that space and both defenders marking Silva were on the wrong side.
I saw that too. :(

SoccMan
04-07-2012, 02:06 PM
That second goal shows you just how crap Harden is, he had time to get to the ball before Wenger,the rookie,instead he lets Wenger get close and instead of putting the ball somewhere safe he puts it into dangerous space where Wenger was able to easily get to the ball, then Wenger is allowed to take a nice shot on net for the goal. However, don't worry people I'm sure Harden will live to see another day under Winter and be in the center of the back at BMO next Saturday versus Chivas. Moreover, someone explain the subs Winter made in the second half, you once again are down a goal, you need to score so let's take off Plata a forward and put on Silva, ok Silva coming on is ok, but leave Plata on and insert Silva for either DeGuzman or Dunfield, why waist a sub on Ekersley by putting Henry on, he should have waited and put on another offensive midfielder on an Avila,keep anybody with any hint of offense on instead later on he takes off Soolsma too, I have had it with Winter and his bonehead substitutions!

ag futbol
04-07-2012, 02:08 PM
It's time to adjust the tactics a little and give our under-talented group more of a fighting chance. The way we are trying to play is leaving very little room for error.

I suggest we go to a 4-2-3-1 if we aren't already there (hard to tell). If one thing is for sure it's that most guys are not effectively playing their roles within this system. It's very apparent when we compare ourselves to Montreal which is very rigid, tactically disciplined, and frankly not very talented, lol.

BayernTFC
04-07-2012, 02:09 PM
Making it into the playoffs is not yet an impossible dream. The Eastern Conference is fairly weak (the new playoff rules will definitely play in TFC's favour), and TFC are only four games in- defeats or not. Two wins against Chivas and Chicago in the next two weeks, at home, and this club is right back in it.


I wouldn't put money on this team going perfect for long stretches during MLS play. I don't know what it'll take to keep fans interest, but players should be fighting for jobs and the chance at Canadian Championship play now.

boban
04-07-2012, 02:10 PM
It seems like the biggest decisions are still being made by someone else.
Bing-Fuckin-OH!!
Nothing will fundamentally, tangentially, change until we have new ownership. And whats coming in the summer is not ownership change - that is called musical chairs.

Beach_Red
04-07-2012, 02:18 PM
Bing-Fuckin-OH!!
Nothing will fundamentally, tangentially, change until we have new ownership. And whats coming in the summer is not ownership change - that is called musical chairs.

It has the potential to be more than musical chairs. I can say that when Bell took over CTV they made fundamental changes - it's still a question if they were the right changes, but that's a different issue (like the Leafs situation, they made probably the right move of hiring a presidemt/GM, they just hired the wrong guy).

The TFC situation really looks as though Mariner and Winter were hired but given little to no say over the big decisions. As Oldtimer says, the team looks to be built around Frings - probably a Klinsmann decision.

It's all speculation, of course, but it really looks like the management structure here isn't really working. No one in management has really taken control of the team and put their stamp on it and there's really no way anyone can - would it be Mariner or Winter? Did either of them have the authority to buy out JDG's contract? Did either of them sign Frings?

ensco
04-07-2012, 02:18 PM
I hope the travelling support make their own fun post-game.

This game was a poor show by both teams and was probably a lost cause for us.

The next two games are must win. Not draw. Win.

ensco
04-07-2012, 02:20 PM
It has the potential to be more than musical chairs.

I think it's certain to be more than musical chairs.

Kilgore Trout
04-07-2012, 02:22 PM
I wouldn't put money on this team going perfect for long stretches during MLS play. I don't know what it'll take to keep fans interest, but players should be fighting for jobs and the chance at Canadian Championship play now.

I don't think this team needs to go perfect for long stretches during MLS play. With the top 5 teams from the east going through, TFC just needs to be better than five teams that are hardly terrific in themselves. A solid home record (no more losses especially important), a couple of opportune road wins, and a few draws on the road, and TFC can make the playoffs. 4 straight losses is a detriment but in no way eliminates TFC from playoff contention. TFC is 6 points out of even 2nd place right now. This is the MLS. You can count on teams like Columbus, DC, Philadelphia, Chicago, New England, and Montreal to put own their own occasional horrorshows (Columbus just went down 0-2 at home inside the opening 15 minutes). 4 losses look awful because they all came together, at the start of the season. TFC is one win and one player away from being right in the contest for 5th or 4th place.

I'd agree with the playoff pessimism if this was the Western conference, but it isn't. TFC has the offense to score goals and just need Frings back and, in the absence of a defender coming in, at least Cann/Williams and the team can eliminate the sort of mistakes that led to these last three losses. Hell, today's game would have been a draw at least with just Cann in for Harden. Cann isn't amazing, but he doesn't make that backheel 'clearance' there. No way this team with just one solid CB and Frings loses that game to Columbus, or leaks three goals to SJ.

I'm not blind to how bad aspects of this team are. I'm only saying that the club as a whole is only two injury returns away from a team that simply does not give up games like this one or last week's.

BayernTFC
04-07-2012, 02:25 PM
Ty Harden put Emory in a really bad position, which led to Emory's red -- although if Emory lets the player run, I'd take my chances with Kocic making the save. But it's pretty much the same thing De Guz did against Santos, but outside the box.


My first impression was that Emory touched the ball before the Montreal player went down.

Kilgore Trout
04-07-2012, 02:30 PM
My first impression was that Emory touched the ball before the Montreal player went down.

He got the ball, and didn't make all that much contact, either. These are the sorts of things that really make me wish football would get on board with video replay. It's not just disallowed goals; it's these major, incorrect decisions that are made in so, so many matches. I'd rather have a just game than one with fewer interruptions.

stuart.mac
04-07-2012, 02:32 PM
Awful performance against a Montreal side that only really looked threatening on the break.

However great away support, singing throughout the game right til the end. Best away support by far!

TFC Cityboy
04-07-2012, 02:35 PM
just got back to the hotel. Having a fantastic wqeekend in a wonderfully friendly Montreal Very disappointed with the manner of the defeat. For those watching on tv barely half the team could be arsed to come and applaud the fantastic travelling support. For those who did (Kocic made the biggest effort) we thank you and appreciate it. For those who sloped straight off you do not deserve this support. Toronto FC does not deserve this level of support.

OK- back to the drinking!

spe18
04-07-2012, 02:41 PM
He got the ball, and didn't make all that much contact, either. These are the sorts of things that really make me wish football would get on board with video replay. It's not just disallowed goals; it's these major, incorrect decisions that are made in so, so many matches. I'd rather have a just game than one with fewer interruptions.

Looking at the replays, it looks like Emory didn't get any ball, all player. And as it's been pointed out in the other thread, the red card is because he was the last defender that prevented a breakaway scoring chance. Jason De Vos also says the referee made the correct call........

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-04-07-mtl-v-tor/highlights?videoID=181506

boban
04-07-2012, 02:45 PM
It has the potential to be more than musical chairs. I can say that when Bell took over CTV they made fundamental changes - it's still a question if they were the right changes, but that's a different issue (like the Leafs situation, they made probably the right move of hiring a presidemt/GM, they just hired the wrong guy).

The TFC situation really looks as though Mariner and Winter were hired but given little to no say over the big decisions. As Oldtimer says, the team looks to be built around Frings - probably a Klinsmann decision.

It's all speculation, of course, but it really looks like the management structure here isn't really working. No one in management has really taken control of the team and put their stamp on it and there's really no way anyone can - would it be Mariner or Winter? Did either of them have the authority to buy out JDG's contract? Did either of them sign Frings?
But that is Bell's business. Sports it's not. In the pressers when they announced their purchase they mentioned how they want to levergae the sports entity to grow thier buinsesses (mobile, tv, internet). There was nothing about them winning on the field of pay for the sake of winning.
In terms of MLSE they are another seat at the boardroom table. That's it. MLSE will continue as a faceless entity. We need a new deck, not the shuffling of it!!!!!!

iy12l
04-07-2012, 02:46 PM
Dunfield, JDG, and Harden seriously need to get the boot. Next game against chivas i dont wanna see anyone of there 3 dumbasses in the 11. Since Emory is red carded we have to play this lineup if we want a win

-----------Kocic-----------
-Ecks-Henry-Aceval-Morgan-
-----------Burgos----------
--------Silva---Avila--------
-----Johnson-Koef-Plata-----
subs:
Cann
Stinson
Lambe
Rowe
JDG
Cordon

BayernTFC
04-07-2012, 02:47 PM
My own feeling is that the team was actually built around Frings, for good or for bad.
Without Frings, this team cannot win.
I think the best response to this is jloome's comment:


we knew before the season where our weaknesses are.

What does it say about the confidence the manager has in his defense when he decides to build around Frings at sweeper.



The offense is decent enough. The defensive problems were not properly addressed, and this falls squarely on Mariner's shoulders.
Where is TFC's offense this afternoon without the play of Soolsma and Koevermans? What would be said about TFC's offense if Koevermans fails to finish on his header? Almost everything was down the right side for TFC. Once again I got the feeling that Montreal wasn't pressured and played the game they wanted to. There weren't a lot of chances for either side really. Some good finishes from Ubiparipovic, Wenger and Koevermans.

Blowing Bubbles
04-07-2012, 02:51 PM
I'm not confident in relying on "the East is weak" this year.

NE looks way better than anyone predicted - 7 pts already and basically lost on the last kick of the match vs Dallas.

NYRB are ripping apart Columbus 3-0 in the first half ..... Cooper and Henry have 6 goals each already this year.

Oduro is scoring for Chicago and they had a great final 15 games last year.

KC and Houston are pretty much guaranteed playoff spots as it is.

ensco
04-07-2012, 02:53 PM
Here is the one thing I would like to ask Winter: if we're modelled on Ajax, why are we playing so many square balls? JDG is the worst, but they all do it.

It is a hallmark of Ajax football, taught there from age 7 onwards (I know this from a documentary I watched), that you avoid the square ball because, if it is intercepted, you are automatically shorthanded, as both the passer and the receiver are instantly behind the play.

JDG and Dunfield both doing it led directly to the first goal.

KGH
04-07-2012, 02:55 PM
So here my .02:

Top 3

1) we can't continue to play RJ and Plata. They both want to play the same position and RJ ends up drifting there anyway. I think that's why the offensive started to look better when Silva came in and pushed RJ out wide.

2) despite his lack of goals Koev looks great. His positioning is awesome and he just hadn't had the final touch. I think this is more on not having a legit AM behind him. I still say he's going to have a solid 12-15 goal season.

3) Soolsma on the wing is looking better and better. I love that slow Dutchman. The plan should be to play him until the 60th-70th minute then bring in Lambe or plata to work on a tired defender.

4) is it just me or is Lambe a bust?

Mid 3

1) as I said above RJ just can't cut it at AM. We looked way better with Silva in there.

2) I've defended dunfield and JDG before but I'm done. They're an awful combo. I know they're DM's but damn their first instinct is always back pass. Its what cost the first goal. I'm ok with one of them playing but put them out there with someone who looks to attack more.

3) with Frings back I'd love to see us play point back with silva and JDG. Frings tends to bring out the best in JDG.

Defenders

1) emery looked good (despite the card). I'd like to see him with Henry as a CB combo. I think Henry has the size than harden has and is likely a step quicker.

2) ecks hurt us today. His work rate is great but then he does that one extra thing that costs a penalty or a card.

3) everyone who thinks Cann is the answer needs to give your head a shake. The guy is coming off an ACL repair and he was never known to be the best defender out there. Big yes but fast and quick decision making? Come on.

Overall:

Everyone who is calling for us to cut JDG doesn't know the rules. Only possibility would be to trade him or let him play out the year. I imagine there's a team that might take him at 335k but then we'd be on the hook for the rest of his salary (not against the cap but still cash out the door). If that happened I doubt we'd see a new DP come in this year.

BFin
04-07-2012, 02:56 PM
That was by no means all ball...it was lazy defending that resulted in Emory taking the man down.

TFCwestcan
04-07-2012, 02:58 PM
I think come May we have to play subs reserves in the Canadian Championships, and concentrate on the league - no more distractions. The CCL is was a wonderful but at what cost. I think the late flight and the emotion of the Santos game had an adverse effect on the team today. Unlike last weekend, we were out played, 62 % possession for MTL says it all.

Aceval 3 goals he was directly responsible for, Emory 2 goals he was responsible for, very disappointing pick-ups for a team that needs backline help.

On the limited positive, very glad to see Koev get his goal (nice assist from Lambe), you could see he was close, also a couple of goal line clearances suggest that with a more stingy backline the score line could have been better.

BayernTFC
04-07-2012, 03:01 PM
These are the sorts of things that really make me wish football would get on board with video replay. It's not just disallowed goals; it's these major, incorrect decisions that are made in so, so many matches. I'd rather have a just game than one with fewer interruptions.
I'm not for instant replay. Emory took the chance with the challenge and with the referee at the vantage point he was in.


Looking at the replays, it looks like Emory didn't get any ball, all player. And as it's been pointed out in the other thread, the red card is because he was the last defender that prevented a breakaway scoring chance. Jason De Vos also says the referee made the correct call........

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-04-07-mtl-v-tor/highlights?videoID=181506
It's too bad the link provided doesn't have the footage of the second angle that was shown in the broadcast. I wouldn't make calls based on De Vos' comments. The referee had a tough decision and Emory was the last man.

iy12l
04-07-2012, 03:02 PM
Exactly were supposed to keep the ball on the ground. I remember Johnson had Plata wide open on the left and Johnson just ignored Plata and kicked it to Koef who was surrounded by 2 defenders and it obviously got intercepted. Wtf is Aron teaching the team? The 4-3-3 is all about maintaining possesion, keeping the ball on the ground, quick 1-2 passes to create passing lanes. TFC has done none of this! In the D the defenders just passes it to Ecks who hoofs the ball to nowhere and it loops again every two minutes.

Luanda
04-07-2012, 03:06 PM
Morgan was out of position in the 1st Mtl goal. Harden is stiff as a board and can not run. Both have been awfull for a number of games.
Ecks-Henry-Aceval-Morgan in the next game will not be the answer.

BayernTFC
04-07-2012, 03:09 PM
It is a hallmark of Ajax football, taught there from age 7 onwards (I know this from a documentary I watched), that you avoid the square ball because, if it is intercepted, you are automatically shorthanded, as both the passer and the receiver are instantly behind the play.

JDG and Dunfield both doing it led directly to the first goal.
This! Dunfield's touch on JDG's pass is poor and allows Neagle to anticipate and steal the ball. I don't understand why JDG immediately decides to pass back (and behind) Dunfield with no pressure on him and with space in the midfield. Neagle then has tons of space to run into and find Ubiparipovic who has all the time in the World to pick the corner of the net.

iy12l
04-07-2012, 03:11 PM
Just fire Winter and hire another dutch coach

[NBF]
04-07-2012, 03:19 PM
Just dumb mistakes all around.

De Guz and Dunfield were useless, like a black hole in the midfield. So nothing got going forward, making Koevermans' job harder. We can't just bypass the midfield and shoot high balls for Koevermans to take down when he's got defenders on him.
Ty Harden put Emory in a really bad position, which led to Emory's red -- although if Emory lets the player run, I'd take my chances with Kocic making the save. But it's pretty much the same thing De Guz did against Santos, but outside the box.

We did have chances though... the save on Koevermans... the ball on the line that Montreal cleared...

With a final score of 2-1, it just goes to show how fine-edged results can be. If we didn't give up stupid goals and actually had a stud at CB, we'd be tied at the very least.

The physical disadvantage of Dunfield and DeGuzman and the slow pace of Harden has been costing the team.

Dunfield, is just an extra body when he plays, no matter what he does or whether he doesnt commit errors, he is like playing versus a brick wall. He is by far the least likely to improve the team when he's on the field.

DeGuzman, IMO he will play up to the talent thats around him. He is not a leader or motivated player. He is a chaser and workhorse without actually having the height and muscle mass to call him a workhorse.

Harden, he is physically what you would want in a centre back, but his pace and lack of change of direction makes him a liability. Other than that he is not that bad, but playing him with two midget holding midfielders is asking for trouble.

*What it really comes down to is playing two undersized midfielders in front of Harden and a rookie centre back in Emory. It was a bad selection versus the physical style of MLS teams. This would be reasonable versus the college teams in preseason, but not versus a rival with an intention on embarrassing the team by winning their first game in MLS versus their closest rival.

------------------------------Kocic----------------------------
Eckersley-----------Harden--------------Emory----------Morgan
---------------------------------------------------------------
--------------DeGuzman-----Johnson-----Dunfield--------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
Soolsma--------------------------------------------------Plata
---------------------------Koevermans-------------------------


*If you are going to start DeGuzman, you have to at least start either Silva or Avila, instead of Dunfield. IMO, there's an understanding that Dunfield is suppose to be that hardworking midfielder that will chase players down and do all the hard tackling, but in reality, the player that best suited to playing that way is DeGuzman. Dunsfield, shouldn't even be on the field before the 85th minute and the last possible substitution.


4-1-2-1-2 or 4-4-2 diamond:


------------------------------Kocic----------------------------
Eckersley-----------Harden--------------Aceval---------Morgan
----------------------------DeGuzman-------------------------
----------Avila----------------------------------Silva----------
-----------------------------Johnson--------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
----------------Koevermans---------------Plata----------------

BayernTFC
04-07-2012, 03:32 PM
4) is it just me or is Lambe a bust?
It's a bit early for such judgements, no? He provided a good cross on the Koevermans goal, no? Seems to me that he played the role a late sub is supposed to.



1) as I said above RJ just can't cut it at AM. We looked way better with Silva in there. RJ looked gassed towards the end. I don't think TFC generated much offensively in the middle or the left of the pitch today. I thought Silva provided a spark. Silva seemed to get into spaces and find the right outlets with his passes.


2) I've defended dunfield and JDG before but I'm done. They're an awful combo. I know they're DM's but damn their first instinct is always back pass. Its what cost the first goal. I'm ok with one of them playing but put them out there with someone who looks to attack more.
After watching this match, it's hard to disagree here. They are not working well in tandem and TFC operates differently when only one of them is on the pitch. Dunfield did provide a nice heading pass to Danny Koevermans inside the box after receiving a nice chip in by Plata in the first half.

Anyone else notice Plata covering well defensively on the opposite side of the pitch several times this afternoon. Good effort.

PopePouri
04-07-2012, 03:33 PM
Morgan was out of position in the 1st Mtl goal. Harden is stiff as a board and can not run. Both have been awfull for a number of games.
Ecks-Henry-Aceval-Morgan in the next game will not be the answer.

Yes he was out of position because Dunfield lost the ball and Montreal countered quickly. He can't be blamed.

DangerRed
04-07-2012, 03:39 PM
http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/+_ed521b103182c1cdea09db3882979f67.jpg

Droop
04-07-2012, 03:47 PM
Hats off to our hard working banner painters. The team not so much.

dow117
04-07-2012, 04:08 PM
I am really dissapointed in Winter for putting Harden in this position where he gets the gears from everyone. He clearly is out of his depth and as a manager , Winter should not leave this guy out to dry. He really does give 100% ( Harden ) but the pace and quality is not there. PS: Morgan is also not ready as with Santos, he is mostly out of position ... he has the pace but not the quality. I do not think Cann is the answer either but he may be the best of a bad bunch. No, we need a quality addition to command the back line; until then, we will continue to bleed goals on half chances...

AlanO
04-07-2012, 04:10 PM
RJ looked gassed towards the end. I don't think TFC generated much offensively in the middle or the left of the pitch today. I thought Silva provided a spark. Silva seemed to get into spaces and find the right outlets with his passes.

After watching this match, it's hard to disagree here. They are not working well in tandem and TFC operates differently when only one of them is on the pitch. Dunfield did provide a nice heading pass to Danny Koevermans inside the box after receiving a nice chip in by Plata in the first half.

Anyone else notice Plata covering well defensively on the opposite side of the pitch several times this afternoon. Good effort.

Agreed.

Our midfield today, before Silva came on:

http://coneofignorance.org/images/about/coneofignorance5.jpg

ManUtd4ever
04-07-2012, 04:13 PM
Well, at 0-4, there's no margin for error the rest of the way. Barely one month into the season and the playoffs are already a pipe dream for fucks sakes.

jazzy
04-07-2012, 04:16 PM
Cann has been on the bench for the past 5 or so games.
Anyone know why he isn't seeing any minutes?
There seem to have some little bit of stability there last year before he went down.

...AND AVILA??????......winter keeps playing players who aren't cutting it and they just don't seem to be under the gun.

Brooker
04-07-2012, 04:19 PM
Well, at 0-4, there's no margin for error the rest of the way. Barely one month into the season and the playoffs are already a pipe dream for fucks sakes.

Atleast we scored a goal! Baby steps. :D

UltraSuperMegaMo
04-07-2012, 04:24 PM
I have a confession to make . . . I checked the baseball score during the game!

I love the team, but watching them, you've got to wonder if it, "it" in the context meaning being a competitive MLS team, is ever going to happen.

AlanO
04-07-2012, 04:24 PM
(deleted)

KGH
04-07-2012, 04:25 PM
Cann has been on the bench for the past 5 or so games.
Anyone know why he isn't seeing any minutes?
There seem to have some little bit of stability there last year before he went down.

Because he's not ready yet. Pushing him back too soon can cause him to re-injure. I think he's still chasing match fitness. Rumour has it he didnt look too solid in the reserve game last week. Plus as he makes his comeback you're going to see him not play on turf. It's extremely hard on the knees.

I imagine he might get some late game minutes in the Chicago game (15-20). After that he'll likely be a sub until finally seeing regular minutes in May.

Ajax TFC
04-07-2012, 04:28 PM
Was RJ's tunnel vision always this bad?

In our last dangerous possession, he had the ball, Silva was streaking into the middle of the box with nothing but space...and he pretended he wasn't even there. Wouldn't have been a difficult ball to play, nobody was in that space and both defenders marking Silva were on the wrong side.

I just don't get it. Players just aren't seeing the plays that are there and just lobbing it in because they don't know what else to do.
That wasn't the first time RJ ignored the open runner a simple pass away. His problem is that he doesn't look around. When he has the ball he's staring at it the entire time he has it

boysblue
04-07-2012, 04:46 PM
aw c'mon.....don't be so hard on the lads, after all:

1. their best player is out
2. they were playing on a plastic pitch
3. they played midweek and if the game and subsequent travel didn't affect them physically, they were bound to be gutted by the disappointment of losing
4. their mvp of two seasons ago is still out

:scarf:

jazzy
04-07-2012, 04:57 PM
Dunfield, JDG, and Harden seriously need to get the boot. Next game against chivas i dont wanna see anyone of there 3 dumbasses in the 11. Since Emory is red carded we have to play this lineup if we want a win

-----------Kocic-----------
-Ecks-Henry-Aceval-Morgan-
-----------Burgos----------
--------Silva---Avila--------
-----Johnson-Koef-Plata-----
subs:
Cann
Stinson
Lambe
Rowe
JDG
Cordon
i'm afraid it'll be more of the same....why I have no ide

billyfly
04-07-2012, 05:00 PM
Let's go Blue Jays

Relja
04-07-2012, 05:09 PM
Tweeted by Kurt Larson

Eckersley said We've got better personnel than Montreal....

jazzy
04-07-2012, 05:16 PM
;1470164']The physical disadvantage of Dunfield and DeGuzman and the slow pace of Harden has been costing the team.

Dunfield, is just an extra body when he plays, no matter what he does or whether he doesnt commit errors, he is like playing versus a brick wall. He is by far the least likely to improve the team when he's on the field.

DeGuzman, IMO he will play up to the talent thats around him. He is not a leader or motivated player. He is a chaser and workhorse without actually having the height and muscle mass to call him a workhorse.

Harden, he is physically what you would want in a centre back, but his pace and lack of change of direction makes him a liability. Other than that he is not that bad, but playing him with two midget holding midfielders is asking for trouble.

*What it really comes down to is playing two undersized midfielders in front of Harden and a rookie centre back in Emory. It was a bad selection versus the physical style of MLS teams. This would be reasonable versus the college teams in preseason, but not versus a rival with an intention on embarrassing the team by winning their first game in MLS versus their closest rival.

------------------------------Kocic----------------------------
Eckersley-----------Harden--------------Emory----------Morgan
---------------------------------------------------------------
--------------DeGuzman-----Johnson-----Dunfield--------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
Soolsma--------------------------------------------------Plata
---------------------------Koevermans-------------------------


*If you are going to start DeGuzman, you have to at least start either Silva or Avila, instead of Dunfield. IMO, there's an understanding that Dunfield is suppose to be that hardworking midfielder that will chase players down and do all the hard tackling, but in reality, the player that best suited to playing that way is DeGuzman. Dunsfield, shouldn't even be on the field before the 85th minute and the last possible substitution.


4-1-2-1-2 or 4-4-2 diamond:


------------------------------Kocic----------------------------
Eckersley-----------Harden--------------Aceval---------Morgan
----------------------------DeGuzman-------------------------
----------Avila----------------------------------Silva----------
-----------------------------Johnson--------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
----------------Koevermans---------------Plata----------------

I thought this was the idea, at the end of last year?....I was looking forward to Silva after picking him, playing with Avila....speed , ball control and soccer instincts to f%%king win...:facepalm:

ensco
04-07-2012, 05:34 PM
Winter now getting asked about his job security post-game:
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/04/07/tfcs-winter-promises-changes-addresses-job-security

If we don't get full points in the next two games, he will be in trouble by the end of April (we finish April away at RSL, a likely loss at the best of times)

SoccMan
04-07-2012, 05:35 PM
The little press that TFC normaly gets will dwindle to minimal if the Jays are for real this season, it will be a Jays love fest 24 hours a day if they continue their great play they started in preseason, what mainstream media outlet will have anytime for TFC especially a club who looks poised to once again not make the post season in a league that the mainstream media considers a minor league. It just boggles the mind how such promise when this club started is going in the dumper like it is, it's almost like the soccer haters out there have cursed this club so that Pro soccer in Toronto does not move forward in popularity.

iy12l
04-07-2012, 05:40 PM
From the new interview it seems Aron will finally put Dunfiled and Harden on the bench, where they belong! I hope JDG will be benched too because his half-ass efforts always starts a counter-attack for the other team. I hope this is the turning point of the season and to be honest i don't want Aron to get fired.

Shakes McQueen
04-07-2012, 05:59 PM
I hope the travelling support make their own fun post-game.

This game was a poor show by both teams and was probably a lost cause for us.

The next two games are must win. Not draw. Win.

Agreed. I will give them a tiny bit of rope for playing mid-week, and the huge emotional letdown of how the second half of the Santos game went, but now there are no excuses. We need wins - immediately.

I also agree with you that Winter's job security really could be in jeopardy by the end of the month if they don't wake up. It's boggling really, when you consider how much better they looked in every CCL game. In the CCL we can beat the reigning champions on their own field, and play three respectable halves against one of the best teams in Mexico - in league play we can't beat an expansion side. With or without Frings.

I think saying we are out of the playoffs already is melodramatic, but it could become a reality if they don't start stringing together some wins now.

- Scott

pekduck
04-07-2012, 06:14 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/04/07/tfcs-winter-promises-changes-addresses-job-security

TFC's Winter promises changes, addresses job security



“It’s very simple, in the coming weeks I’m going to change some things,” Winter told reporters after his team lost 2-1 to the Montreal Impact at Olympic Stadium. “Zero points out of four games. I prefer to do it different with some players who are not making those mistakes or they want to battle.”


Let's see if there are effective changes coming.

Code Red
04-07-2012, 06:32 PM
The little press that TFC normaly gets will dwindle to minimal if the Jays are for real this season, it will be a Jays love fest 24 hours a day if they continue their great play they started in preseason, what mainstream media outlet will have anytime for TFC especially a club who looks poised to once again not make the post season in a league that the mainstream media considers a minor league. It just boggles the mind how such promise when this club started is going in the dumper like it is, it's almost like the soccer haters out there have cursed this club so that Pro soccer in Toronto does not move forward in popularity.

The media in this city doesn't give two sh*ts about TFC, never has, never will. Yes, they interviewed some supporter groups in the early years and even made a mention or two when the team was a novelty, but since then, have they given a damn? There was barely any coverage of the CCL campaign, even with the Leafs being out of the playoff picture. I've come to expect nothing better. If it wasn't for TFC.ca and a few reporters, we'd have no knowledge of what's happening with this team. Mind you the way things are going this season, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

As for bandwagon jumpers, they can retreat at their earliest convienience. Loyal supporters will stick around, I'm sure.

Eastend
04-07-2012, 06:34 PM
Eckersley said We've got better personnel than Montreal....

At this point questionable, but maybe. However, today Montreal had the better team.

Roogsy
04-07-2012, 07:17 PM
The little press that TFC normaly gets will dwindle to minimal if the Jays are for real this season, it will be a Jays love fest 24 hours a day if they continue their great play they started in preseason, what mainstream media outlet will have anytime for TFC especially a club who looks poised to once again not make the post season in a league that the mainstream media considers a minor league. It just boggles the mind how such promise when this club started is going in the dumper like it is, it's almost like the soccer haters out there have cursed this club so that Pro soccer in Toronto does not move forward in popularity.

All that hype and goodwill from the game at the Skydome is quickly evaporating isn't it?

Results matter. Some have convinced themselves the city and it's fans will wait for results but I have never believed that to be true. We need results NOW! Or all we're doing is damaging the brand to the point where all you will have are the South stand fans and THEN try convincing the new overlords/owners to keep investing in multiple DPs. And without those how are we going to compete? Look what losing Frings has done to the team.

BakaGaijin
04-07-2012, 07:24 PM
Are we still allowed to release JDG at the summer transfer window to free up cap space? I believe there was an MLS rule that did allow this in the last year of a players contract.

SoccMan
04-07-2012, 07:31 PM
Thank You "Roogsy" I have been trying to convey that message on here for the longest time, with every loss, with every lousy season the brand is being damaged where in the end like you said the only people left in the stands will be the ones in the south stands. Some people seem to be ok with that because the people left they say will be the real loyal fans and the bandwagoners can go fuck off as some have posted on here. That is all good and dandy but if you think MLSE will continue with a team if it begins to not make money and instead bleed money then you are in for one big surprise!

KGH
04-07-2012, 07:36 PM
Are we still allowed to release JDG at the summer transfer window to free up cap space? I believe there was an MLS rule that did allow this in the last year of a players contract.

As his contract is guaranteed it doesn't look so:

III. METHODS OF RELEASING PLAYERS

(A) WAIVERS
Teams may waive players based on performance at any time during the MLS season. Players with guaranteed contracts will continue to have their salary budget charge applied to the team salary budget, subject to any settlement. Players on semi-guaranteed contracts can be waived prior to July 1 of any year and free up the corresponding budget space. If a player on a semi-guaranteed contract is waived after July 1, his salary budget charge will count against the team’s salary budget and the team waiving the player will not receive a replacement except under the normal player acquisition mechanisms. Any settlement amount will be charged to the team’s salary budget.
(B) TRANSFERS AND LOANS
An MLS player may be transferred or loaned at any time to a team outside the League (subject to that team’s Federation’s transfer window), subject to the consent of the player.
The registration windows – the dates between which MLS may request the transfer certificate of a player under contract in another country – are as follows:


January 21 – April 15 (Primary Window)
June 27 – July 27 (Secondary Window)

(C) CONTRACT EXPIRATION
When a player’s contract expires, the player does not count against the roster or budget of the team in question. Subject to the Re-Entry Draft rules, a team retains the rights to the player indefinitely following the expiration of a contract only if attempts were made to re-sign the player.
(D) BUYOUT OF GUARANTEED CONTRACT
Teams may have the ability to buyout one guaranteed player as follows:


A Team may buy out one (1) guaranteed player (including a DP’s) contract during the off-season and free up the corresponding budget space. Such a buyout is at the particular MLS Team’s own expense.
A Team may not free up budget space with a buyout of a player’s salary budget charge during the season. Such a buyout will be conducted by the League and count on a Club’s budget in a manner consistent with current MLS guidelines.

Roogsy
04-07-2012, 07:38 PM
Are we still allowed to release JDG at the summer transfer window to free up cap space? I believe there was an MLS rule that did allow this in the last year of a players contract.

This has been addressed several times. DP cap relief is only during the off-season. If the team releases him at any point this season, summer or not, there is no cap relief.

sloangraham
04-07-2012, 07:38 PM
I saw the team at the airport on the way out of town this afternoon. Spirits seemed light and jovial, and it pissed me off. Didn't have the nerve to say anything, but I truly hope they know this isn't acceptable.

MG42
04-07-2012, 07:39 PM
All that hype and goodwill from the game at the Skydome is quickly evaporating isn't it?

Results matter. Some have convinced themselves the city and it's fans will wait for results but I have never believed that to be true. We need results NOW! Or all we're doing is damaging the brand to the point where all you will have are the South stand fans and THEN try convincing the new overlords/owners to keep investing in multiple DPs. And without those how are we going to compete? Look what losing Frings has done to the team.

This team really missed the boat in the first couple years...the potential that was wasted is mind blowing

Juanito
04-07-2012, 07:41 PM
Roogsy, SoccMan ....

This is my fear. I've had discussions with people that we need the casual fan. There aren't 20,000 "die-hard TFC fans" out there with money to fill the stadium every week. The moment this team loses those people, we are in trouble as far as professional soccer in Toronto is concerned.

I'm very disappointed in Winter. I was on the Dutch bandwagon when he first came, but I'm starting to think, he was just blowing smoke up me arse.

The next match is must-win in my opinion.

Roogsy
04-07-2012, 07:43 PM
Thank You "Roogsy" I have been trying to convey that message on here for the longest time, with every loss, with every lousy season the brand is being damaged where in the end like you said the only people left in the stands will be the ones in the south stands. Some people seem to be ok with that because the people left they say will be the real loyal fans and the bandwagoners can go fuck off as some have posted on here. That is all good and dandy but if you think MLSE will continue with a team if it begins to not make money and instead bleed money then you are in for one big surprise!

I keep rolling my eyes at the hubris to wish bandwagoners goodbye. Like somehow we think MLSE will put a better team on the pitch, not worse, if we have half (or less) fans in the stands.

UltraSuperMegaMo
04-07-2012, 07:45 PM
This team really missed the boat in the first couple years...the potential that was wasted is mind blowing

I agree 100%, but in defence of MLSE, what's happening this year isn't because they cheaped out or made obviously bad decisions in terms of the team's management. It looks like they just picked the wrong guy. It's in their best interest for the team to a success on the field.

Roogsy
04-07-2012, 07:55 PM
This team really missed the boat in the first couple years...the potential that was wasted is mind blowing

It's the single biggest reason behind my fervent and yes, often overbearing, pleadings on this board for more accountability to the fans. We are the ONLY check in the whole system that keeps MLSE somewhat honest. I continue to believe as a whole we have failed as supporters and have let the bandwagoners be the ones to dictate the message to management.

But in doing so it has damaged the "brand" of TFC to the point where we are the laughing-stock not only in our city but in the league. We could have been the opposite. I honestly believe we could have been THE elite team of MLS. It makes me sad. What could have been... *sigh*

Beach_Red
04-07-2012, 07:59 PM
I agree 100%, but in defence of MLSE, what's happening this year isn't because they cheaped out or made obviously bad decisions in terms of the team's management. It looks like they just picked the wrong guy. It's in their best interest for the team to a success on the field.

Are you sure they didn't cheap out in the beginning? They picked the wrong guy - one guy. How much did they invest in the rest of the front office? How much in scouting compared to other MLS teams? How much did they invest in the rest of the team's infrastructure? This was a brand new franchise, they had zero employees when they started and they could have put together any front office they wanted - instead they hired one guy with almost no experience (and absolutely none building a team from scratch) and that was it.

What's happening now is a direct result of that poor management (of the whole organization). In the first four years - with the best fan support in the league - they built nothing of any lasting value.

Now they're still scrambling, hiring consultants and a coach and a GM who never met each other before they came here.

There is no defence of MLSE.

TorontoMO
04-07-2012, 08:03 PM
It's the single biggest reason behind my fervent and yes, often overbearing, pleadings on this board for more accountability to the fans. We are the ONLY check in the whole system that keeps MLSE somewhat honest. I continue to believe as a whole we have failed as supporters and have let the bandwagoners be the ones to dictate the message to management.

But in doing so it has damaged the "brand" of TFC to the point where we are the laughing-stock not only in our city but in the league. We could have been the opposite. I honestly believe we could have been THE elite team of MLS. It makes me sad. What could have been... *sigh*

Actually the causal/band wagoner fan will the ones that turn this team around. When they walk away and that is left is the hardcore 1500 in the stadium (Which by the way was the gates at most Lynx games from the A-league) the owners will have to take the winning thing serious. As long as there is 15K at the games, they won't do a thing.

If you want to protest the direction of the club, pick a game and have every hardcore supporter not show up. Just stay away. They may take notice of that. Show up fill the stands and they won't care how many signs you paint or what those signs say.

Dkolish3
04-07-2012, 08:10 PM
Well my first game could have gone better, but if I needed a team that always wins I'd be a Yankees and Man U supporter.

Thoughts on the experience:

--Great atmosphere as the Toronto and Montreal supporters showed up
--It was great being heckled by the Montreal Supporters, no joking it was great
--French Canadian Women :)
--Its slightly weird when you're the only person in your section who cheers when your team scores a goal
--It sucks when you receive "Take That" looks from people in your section when they score

Thoughts on the game:

--First 60 minutes was a clusterfuck Toronto had no ideas about how to pass and go forward
--Emory looked like he got the ball
--How did we perform better with 10 men than with 11
--Henry is not the second coming, got burned on several occasions out wide
--Plata and Johnson like the same position too much
--Koev scored, Yeah
--Our defense is still not good
--We still act like two teams, Defense and Attack with nothing connecting them
--

ensco
04-07-2012, 08:20 PM
I think we probably should give Winter a few more games (maybe 5?) before turning the howitzers on him. This was a predictable, and maybe even excusable, loss. But the free passes end today.

Re the bigger picture, I agree that the fan base can't take it if TFC are doormats again. We're already there. The Santos Laguna announced attendance of almost 19000 was complete BS, thousands of empty seats in the more expensive sections.

Also Anselmi will hesitate (and possibly even not be able) to make a change so close to the sale closing date. The Carlyle hiring bugged me, and I bet a lot of people directly involved, because, even though Burke had the right to make a long-term commitment to Carlyle, it is really restricting to the new ownership to take on big new commitments right before the changeover.

brad
04-07-2012, 08:21 PM
Are you sure they didn't cheap out in the beginning?

It's pretty well known that they didn't invest in a DP early on because the stands were full and they didn't feel the need to invest that way. A business decision - not a footballing one.

There were also very well placed sources saying could have had Fowler in year one for a million per year.

brad
04-07-2012, 08:30 PM
aw c'mon.....don't be so hard on the lads, after all:

1. their best player is out
2. they were playing on a plastic pitch
3. they played midweek and if the game and subsequent travel didn't affect them physically, they were bound to be gutted by the disappointment of losing
4. their mvp of two seasons ago is still out

1.arnaud an bernier were out for Montreal
2.both teams played on it, but will agree its a slight advantage to them as they are more familiar with it
3.montreal also played midweek away, with a later kickoff than us. I'll give you less travel time and a much less hostile environment though. They should be gutted after midweek - and that should have drown them to react positively - especially given the fact that it was Montreal. It shouldn't have a negative effect.
4.Cann is not the solution to this teams problems. Not in this system.

Roogsy
04-07-2012, 08:32 PM
Actually the causal/band wagoner fan will the ones that turn this team around. When they walk away and that is left is the hardcore 1500 in the stadium (Which by the way was the gates at most Lynx games from the A-league) the owners will have to take the winning thing serious. As long as there is 15K at the games, they won't do a thing.

If you want to protest the direction of the club, pick a game and have every hardcore supporter not show up. Just stay away. They may take notice of that. Show up fill the stands and they won't care how many signs you paint or what those signs say.

Leaving it up the general fan to send the message has two things wrong with it:

1) By allowing the regular fan to take the lead in this regard, the supporters groups, the supposed benchmark of support for a team is actually deferring their responsibility to hold the team accountable.
2) By the time the disorganized group of overall fans have acted en masse and managed to send a clear message to management its only because things have gone so far and gotten so bad that there is little surprise it happens (ie. Year 4). If SGs haven't acted by then I would question the need for their existence due to a complete lack of effectiveness.

Supporters are supposed to lead not follow. And not just in singing and jumping.

West220Side
04-07-2012, 08:33 PM
I've seen a few comments about Doneil Henry.. just my opinion throwing it out there.

- Doneil Henry got subbed in for Eckersley and isn't a very face "wingback" type player. He's a centreback naturally. Can't blame him for getting burned a few times.
- Once Emory was sent off and he played more centrally I think he was defending a bit more confidently.
- I'm surprised he missed that header in the box (sent in from De Guzman) but to be fair it was a bad angle, though he is very good in the air.

As for the game..
- Great atmosphere, enjoyed the rivalry.
- Bad showing on the pitch, had more fun chanting then I did watching the game at times.

brad
04-07-2012, 08:35 PM
I keep rolling my eyes at the hubris to wish bandwagoners goodbye. Like somehow we think MLSE will put a better team on the pitch, not worse, if we have half (or less) fans in the stands.

You can certainly kiss the notion of 3 DP's, mostly likely even one goodbye if that's the case.

Roogsy
04-07-2012, 08:40 PM
I think we probably should give Winter a few more games (maybe 5?) before turning the howitzers on him. This was a predictable, and maybe even excusable, loss. But the free passes end today.

Re the bigger picture, I agree that the fan base can't take it if TFC are doormats again. We're already there. The Santos Laguna announced attendance of almost 19000 was complete BS, thousands of empty seats in the more expensive sections.

Also Anselmi will hesitate (and possibly even not be able) to make a change so close to the sale closing date. The Carlyle hiring bugged me, and I bet a lot of people directly involved, because, even though Burke had the right to make a long-term commitment to Carlyle, it is really restricting to the new ownership to take on big new commitments right before the changeover.

I agree with you 100%. The problem? There are no expectations set whereby any observer can say "change is necessary". Right now it's all ad hoc. The only standard I have seen is that the team make the playoffs meaning the only appropriate time to visit this issue is if and when TFC are mathematically eliminated from contention. So...what...September? Great, possibly another year written off. Exactly what I warned against last year.

UltraSuperMegaMo
04-07-2012, 08:50 PM
Are you sure they didn't cheap out in the beginning? They picked the wrong guy - one guy. How much did they invest in the rest of the front office? How much in scouting compared to other MLS teams? How much did they invest in the rest of the team's infrastructure? This was a brand new franchise, they had zero employees when they started and they could have put together any front office they wanted - instead they hired one guy with almost no experience (and absolutely none building a team from scratch) and that was it.

What's happening now is a direct result of that poor management (of the whole organization). In the first four years - with the best fan support in the league - they built nothing of any lasting value.

Now they're still scrambling, hiring consultants and a coach and a GM who never met each other before they came here.

There is no defence of MLSE.

I clearly stated that what is happening this year is not because they cheaped (is cheaped even a word? The Safari spell checker seems to think it isn't) out. They made the right kind of decisions last offseason. It's not to MLSE's benefit that the team sucks. There's this conspiratorial subtext to things people write here, people seem to be implying that there's some secret agenda to make the team bad.

tfc2008
04-07-2012, 09:16 PM
1015pm back from montreal.

Redpatchboys for the first time i was standing with you guys in the section.
wat you guys do every game is awesome and the problem is you guys deserve more than the crap we see every weekend.
i hope the front office wake up and give you guys wat youdeserve, a winning team.

boysblue
04-07-2012, 09:27 PM
umm. good response brad, but i was being sarcastic.

however, i neglected to mention:

5. the impact played the entire match with eleven men
6. danny took a wicked knee to the nuts

brad
04-07-2012, 09:33 PM
umm. good response brad, but i was being sarcastic.


Fair enough - sarcasm rarely comes through clearly on message boards though....

cmonyoureds
04-07-2012, 09:46 PM
Just got back from MTL and two things still stick out

1) The best Mtl support could offer was a "TFC circus in town" banner drawn by pre-schoolers. REALLY? This was your chance to showcase your support and that's the best you could offer??????? Jeepers murphy, somebody post a Columbus link as a teaching tool

2) YOU ALLOW THE ENTIRE MTL TEAM TO CELEBRATE LIKE CHAMPIONS IN FRONT OF YOUR TRAVELLING SUPPORT AFTER A GOAL AND STAND THERE AND WATCH IT? For the love of all that's good and holy somebody square up to someone over there and let em know it's not acceptable!!!! No heart, no guts, no grit, NO LEADER.

Gonna go observe the 24 hour rule now before saying anything else.

Jcm144
04-07-2012, 09:53 PM
My jaw dropped, seeing the way Ty Harden gave up on the ball to give Impact's 2nd goal. I was utterly shocked. This backline needs to be addressed now, it is getting exposed every game now that Frings has been out. I always wanted Frings to play a more attacking style, then being a sweeper. But cleaaarly, TFC needs Frings now. Winter needs to go on the market and look for real solid defenders.

jloome
04-07-2012, 09:59 PM
Here is the one thing I would like to ask Winter: if we're modelled on Ajax, why are we playing so many square balls? JDG is the worst, but they all do it.

It is a hallmark of Ajax football, taught there from age 7 onwards (I know this from a documentary I watched), that you avoid the square ball because, if it is intercepted, you are automatically shorthanded, as both the passer and the receiver are instantly behind the play.

JDG and Dunfield both doing it led directly to the first goal.

This is where I fear the arrogance and narcissism that comes with success as a player might come into effect.

We clearly don't have the talent to risk a slow build from the back, not in MLS, where players are strong, fast and aggressive above all else. The one game where we played directly, with a tight and compact defense but using a regular 4-3-3 offense ( a la Ajax) was the first game against Santos, and we looked really f'ing good.

But I don't see these two guys adapting the system to the league. They're trying to adapt the entirety of American football - via Klinsmann at the U.S. national level -- to the system. But it would take a multi-generational shift across the U.S. college and amateur system as well to develop the necessary supporting technique, mindset and coaching.

When I was a kid in England in the 70s, they taught us fundamentals of movement, reading the play and moving into space, at a very early age. It's a very different approach, less aggressive, more focused on team interplay than kick around. Short square balls in your own end would get your ass benched at age EIGHT,at least for that practice or game. That's lacking over here. So players' development is well behind, as Tomas Rongen admitted in one of his first interviews after joining TFC.

We need to adapt to the league. It's great playing with movement and technique up top, entertaining and productive. But in our end, we need to be more compact, get the ball up to midfield and challenge for it. DeGuzman and Dunfield don't have the work rate, the speed or the ability to read quickly enough.

I vote we throw caution to the wind, play more directly but with the 4-3-3 rotations, and start Jr. Burgos and Matt Stinson behind Luis Silva. All three have impressed me more in the few occasions we've seen them than the clowns starting now.

Doneil Henry should never play wing back. He doesn't have the delivery. What the hell was that about? He's a straight up in-the-box ball winner, great in the air, good tackler. he's not a fullback or a wingback.

I'd switch to this, and play more direct, with a more compact team, bring on plata and lambe late for the speed advantage wide.

--------------Kocic------------------
--Eckersley--Henry--Emory(when back)--Morgan (shaky today.)
---------Stinson---Burgos-------------
--------------Silva-------------------
Johnson------------------Soolsma
-----------Koevermans.

Yohan
04-07-2012, 10:09 PM
Jeremy, spot on. Ill have better reply once i watch this game again but someone needs to show Winter Sporting KC tapes. They make 4-3-3 work in mls bc they play and adapt to the league. 5 wins in a row to start the season after dumping la 1-0who today

SCF1908
04-07-2012, 10:21 PM
just got back from Montreal.

The support was fantastic and that is the sort of support that can be proud that it was loud throughout and brought it into the stadium as visitors. Reminded me of travelling in Europe to support my team.

On a side note, one of my kids loved being the capo for two minutes in the first half and leading a ribald chant on the megaphone, props to the capo whom I don't know personally for inviting him to do it.

Also, the smoke was fantastic, super. Away games really are the most fun with TFC.

Rene Kingsriver
04-07-2012, 10:21 PM
It's going to take me a while to get over this defeat. I felt totally letdown today and I didn't even go to Montreal.

Cashcleaner
04-07-2012, 10:29 PM
There's no other way to spin it or make it less than what it is - we got outplayed in almost all respects today by a team with only 5 previous MLS matches under its belt. This is a result the organization should be ashamed of, especially considering the opponent. I can give the club some leeway after playing Santos midweek. I can even cut them some slack for playing away in a very hostile stadium or the fact that it was the first BIG game for the home team. But none of those points are an excuse for the apathy and level of athleticism I saw on the pitch today. I saw the possession stats put up on TSN three times over the course of the game - each time saying it was 69% to 31% in favour of Montreal and I can't honestly dispute those figures.

Koevermans and Soolsma played a decent game. Personally, I don't get why Soolsma was subbed out when he was, he looked pretty good today - at least a lot better than before. Kocic played as well as can be expected, but AGAIN was let down by the back four. Or was it back two? Because when it mattered the most, we were definitely lacking in bodies between the ball and the net. Emory looked okay as well, and you know what? I don't give a fuck about his red card. It actually reminded me that we still have some players with blood in their vains.


It's the single biggest reason behind my fervent and yes, often overbearing, pleadings on this board for more accountability to the fans. We are the ONLY check in the whole system that keeps MLSE somewhat honest. I continue to believe as a whole we have failed as supporters and have let the bandwagoners be the ones to dictate the message to management.

But in doing so it has damaged the "brand" of TFC to the point where we are the laughing-stock not only in our city but in the league. We could have been the opposite. I honestly believe we could have been THE elite team of MLS. It makes me sad. What could have been... *sigh*

You're taking the words right out of my mouth. During our first two seasons, it really looked like Toronto was going to be MLS's next BIG CLUB simply on account of the huge crowds we were getting at BMO and how enthusiastically people were embracing the sport and culture here in the city. Sure we're weren't playing great soccer, but I'm sure most of us assumed the wins would eventually come. How could they not? We were packing it in at the stadium, buying swaths of merch, organizing and going on MASSIVE road trips (the sort previously unseen in the league), and had the best and most organized supporter groups in the league. With a fanbase like that and the financial resources of MLSE, how could we NOT become one of the top-three clubs in the league?

As it turns outs, the answer was simple: The ownership had very little knowledge about what is required to build and oversee a successful soccer club and didn't bring in anyone who did.

MLSE didn't want to take some of the necessary risks to build a competitive team from the outset. They brought in Mo Johnson, a decidedly ho-hum choice for Head Coach. They wouldn't even attempt to sign a DP until the 2009 season was well underway. We had this enormous opportunity squandered by people with a very limited vision and/or a very limited understanding of how to create and maintain a successful club.


Are you sure they didn't cheap out in the beginning? They picked the wrong guy - one guy. How much did they invest in the rest of the front office? How much in scouting compared to other MLS teams? How much did they invest in the rest of the team's infrastructure? This was a brand new franchise, they had zero employees when they started and they could have put together any front office they wanted - instead they hired one guy with almost no experience (and absolutely none building a team from scratch) and that was it.

What's happening now is a direct result of that poor management (of the whole organization). In the first four years - with the best fan support in the league - they built nothing of any lasting value.

Now they're still scrambling, hiring consultants and a coach and a GM who never met each other before they came here.

There is no defence of MLSE.

Pretty much this. I didn't mean to basically repeat the gist of your post, but so much is true. It's like the club is in a constant state of flux. It started off that way and it will likely continue for the foreseeable future.


aw c'mon.....don't be so hard on the lads, after all:

1. their best player is out
2. they were playing on a plastic pitch
3. they played midweek and if the game and subsequent travel didn't affect them physically, they were bound to be gutted by the disappointment of losing
4. their mvp of two seasons ago is still out

:scarf:

1. The loss of one player from the roster should never impact a club in such a way that we are losing now, and it's a terrible argument to use in defence of the club and the people calling the shots.

2. So were the Impact. I'm not denying that the Impact have had more time to play and practise on it , but it shouldn't be a huge factor to explain their win. Let's remember that we played on turf for the Champions League match against LA and practised on it beforehand, so it's not an unknown playing surface to the current roster.

3. Montreal played RSL on Wednesday. There's no doubt that the team would have gone into the match today below 100% fitness and rest, but so did Montreal.

4. That didn't help us any today.


All that hype and goodwill from the game at the Skydome is quickly evaporating isn't it?

Results matter. Some have convinced themselves the city and it's fans will wait for results but I have never believed that to be true. We need results NOW! Or all we're doing is damaging the brand to the point where all you will have are the South stand fans and THEN try convincing the new overlords/owners to keep investing in multiple DPs. And without those how are we going to compete? Look what losing Frings has done to the team.

TFC cannot survive on it's current course. I mean that literally. The club will continue to lose fans if we don't turn this thing around and MLSE won't hesitate to cut the team loose the second it starts losing money. And it won't take crowds of 7 or 8 thousands for that to happen. Apparently 10,000 to 11,000 is around the break-even point for gate revenues - at least according to what I've been told. If we carry on with this level of play, expect to see crowds of far less than 18,000 next season.


This team really missed the boat in the first couple years...the potential that was wasted is mind blowing

Yep. For a while the phrase of choice many here were using was "killing the golden goose". I always thought it was a bad cliche, but I think it's actually very astute. Again, for the first two years this club could do no wrong. The crowds were there and their was money to be made. I don't think we've had particularly cheap owners. They've shown stinginess in some very obvious cases, but for the most part, I'm give them a pass. But having all the money in the world doesn't mean much if you spend it unwisely or fail to see the benefits of certain investments.


It's pretty well known that they didn't invest in a DP early on because the stands were full and they didn't feel the need to invest that way. A business decision - not a footballing one.

There were also very well placed sources saying could have had Fowler in year one for a million per year.

And we suffered for years because of it.

Beach_Red
04-07-2012, 10:50 PM
I clearly stated that what is happening this year is not because they cheaped (is cheaped even a word? The Safari spell checker seems to think it isn't) out. They made the right kind of decisions last offseason. It's not to MLSE's benefit that the team sucks. There's this conspiratorial subtext to things people write here, people seem to be implying that there's some secret agenda to make the team bad.

I disagree that they made the right kinds of decisions. They hired a consultant on a short-term contract and he's long gone. The right decision would have been a full-time president with a lot of experience who actually runs the whole operation.

But we agree that it's in their best interest to have a successful team. That doesn't mean they have the ability to do it. This isn't some kind of conspiracy, they just aren't very good.

We'll see, maybe Bell will do a better job, but just wanting it isn't enough. It's in the best interest if every ownership to have a successful team, but they can't all win.

skypilot69
04-07-2012, 10:55 PM
Disscusting!!!!!!!!
Can someone/anyone tell me WHERE THE FUCK IS THE EXPERIENCED CENTER DEFENDER WE WERE SUPPOSED TO GET A YEAR AGO WHO WAS SUPPOSED TO SOLIDIFY OUR BACK LINE AND TEACH OUR YOUNGER PLAYERS?

SINCE THAT NEVER HAPPENED, WE USED/ABUSED OUR BEST PLAYER AND OUR HEART AND SOUL - TORSTEN FRINGS - INTO INJURY BY HAVING HIM DO 2 AND 3 JOBS AT A TIME!!!

WELL DONE MLSE!!!! COULDN'T ORGANIZE A PISS UP IN A BREWERY (UNLESS THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH NOT DELIVERING AND MAKE A TIDY PROFIT)

I AM READY TO DITCH MY SEASON TICKETS -MLSE CAN GO FUCK THEMSELVES

IF WINTER AND MARINER HAD BALLS, THEY SHOULD GO PUBLIC ABOUT THE FARSE CALLED TFC AND FORCE THE ISSUE OR RESIGN IN PROTEST!!!

sp69

One of many pissed supporters

SP69

Abou Sky
04-07-2012, 11:00 PM
De Guz and Dunfield were useless, like a black hole in the midfield

C'mon, that is just dumb.

A black hole would have been FAR more effective in midfield...

boban
04-07-2012, 11:01 PM
That is all good and dandy but if you think MLSE will continue with a team if it begins to not make money and instead bleed money then you are in for one big surprise!
Well that nisn't a bad thing necessarily.
Maybe they sell TFC and we get rid of MLSE once and for good.

boban
04-07-2012, 11:05 PM
I agree 100%, but in defence of MLSE, what's happening this year isn't because they cheaped out or made obviously bad decisions in terms of the team's management. It looks like they just picked the wrong guy. It's in their best interest for the team to a success on the field.
It's not Winter's fault he doesn't get the support form ownership. besides its too simple to critisize him when the other two managers are in the same boat.
There is a serious systamatic deficiency in MLSE ownership. Far tooo many problems/issues keep popping up in all 3 teams to dismiss it at the feet of the manager, in this case Winter.

Abou Sky
04-07-2012, 11:22 PM
All this talk of how much MLSE is to blame.

I have to wonder. If they ARE in fact to blame, will transfer of ownership make a difference?

It would seem to me that a winning team brings in more TV revenues, as well as gate/shwag $$$, could Rogers & Bell be the turnaround MLSE needs?

I guess we can hope.


Big thanks to all the travelers, great fun to be there, would have been more fun to win.

boban
04-07-2012, 11:29 PM
All this talk of how much MLSE is to blame.

I have to wonder. If they ARE in fact to blame, will transfer of ownership make a difference?

It would seem to me that a winning team brings in more TV revenues, as well as gate/shwag $$$, could Rogers & Bell be the turnaround MLSE needs?

I guess we can hope.


Big thanks to all the travelers, great fun to be there, would have been more fun to win.
Tangible real new ownership is not coming in 3 months. It's just one corporate entity trading spots with 2 corporate enities.
MLSE still lives and breathes and remains a faceless entity. The more things change the more they stay the same.

And your statement a winning team brings in $$ in TV revenue is what the problem is with these two new entities. I couldnt give a shit about TV revenue wins.
I just want an owner that wants to win for the sake of just simply winning. Nothing else!

Code Red
04-07-2012, 11:31 PM
I keep rolling my eyes at the hubris to wish bandwagoners goodbye. Like somehow we think MLSE will put a better team on the pitch, not worse, if we have half (or less) fans in the stands.

Roogsy, I think you and SoccMan misinterpreted my post.

I'm in no way in favour of having an empty BMO Field. I value the casual fan and realize that they keep the locomotive going as much as supporters do. I know for a fact that empty seats will not benefit the club and/or the acquisition of skilled players or DPs for that matter. What I object to is not the casual fan, but the fan who chooses to support this team when everything is peachy but refuses to support the team through its lows. That to me, is the definition of a "bandwagon jumper".

I'm just as dissapointed as anyone else that we're off to an 0-4 start, but I will always support this team, even if it means we finish at the bottom of the table. Supporting your club through the best of times and the worst of times. Call me crazy, but isn't that what the definition of a "fan" is? I don't consider myself a "hubris" but I do consider myself a dedicated fan. I would hope that most fans of this team would stick through the good, the bad and the ugly otherwise what's the point?

Just my 2 cents.

Auzzy
04-07-2012, 11:34 PM
It's not Winter's fault he doesn't get the support form ownership. besides its too simple to critisize him when the other two managers are in the same boat.
There is a serious systamatic deficiency in MLSE ownership. Far tooo many problems/issues keep popping up in all 3 teams to dismiss it at the feet of the manager, in this case Winter.

I think it's a complete guess that Winter "doesn't get support from ownership" at this moment, or that the ownership is currently the main problem. I mean, in the long run of course MLSE is the problem -- they hired all the guys we've had so far, and made many of the other bad decisions that were mentioned above. But right now, we just don't know if Winter is being prevented by ownership from doing something that he wants to do & that would really help the team. Did Winter want to buy-out JDG's contract during the offseason and dump him, maybe get a stud CB instead? We don't know. From Winter/Mariner/De Klerk's public statements, I would guess that they thought JDG is overpaid, but pretty good, and (given the contract that Mo had already given him) OK to keep until the end of this year. I don't think any of us knows for sure.

I haven't said much about Winter so far, and I've tried to be optimistic about him (as well as Mariner & De Klerk). However, given some of the decisions they have obviously made, I'm no longer willing to blame things only on ownership. E.g., sometimes Winter has done a pretty good job picking his starters and his subs -- but some of his decisions have been obviously bone-headed in that regard, today being an example (as mentioned above).

Similarly, I doubt ownership forced them to sign the new guys that they got -- and too many of them have been busts, at least in the way they've been played.

Cashcleaner
04-07-2012, 11:37 PM
I disagree that they made the right kinds of decisions. They hired a consultant on a short-term contract and he's long gone. The right decision would have been a full-time president with a lot of experience who actually runs the whole operation.

But we agree that it's in their best interest to have a successful team. That doesn't mean they have the ability to do it. This isn't some kind of conspiracy, they just aren't very good.

We'll see, maybe Bell will do a better job, but just wanting it isn't enough. It's in the best interest if every ownership to have a successful team, but they can't all win.

Perhaps one of the biggest problems this club has had since day one is the lack of a dedicated club President. Myself and several other members here have been saying it for years. Tom Anselmi oversees several departments at MLSE, including TFC. I don't want to be too critical of the man because for all I know, he had the job thrown in his lap. But we need someone in charge who understands the fundamentals of the sport, the structural and operational details of the league, and has a greater sense of stewardship toward the team.

TFC Cityboy
04-07-2012, 11:37 PM
having a fantastic weekend in Mtl DESPITE the match. this club does not deserve the level of support we give it.
Cheersh

Abou Sky
04-07-2012, 11:38 PM
I just want an owner that wants to win for the sake of just simply winning. Nothing else!

Me too man, me too...

'fan owned' would be awesome but where the hell is $200m or so of fan money? (stab in the dark at value)

Waggy
04-08-2012, 12:06 AM
I only saw the first half because the first half was just disgusting and, well quite frankly the Jays are far more worth watching at this point. I don't mind losing. Really, I don't. I'm a Leafs/Jays/Raptors/TFC/Argos/Canada fan. I've lost a LOT. But fuck if we're going to get outworked like crazy by our RIVAL team in front of thousands of our supporters not 4 days after our best 45 minutes of play ever. Seriously? Seriously? We needed a heart today. Someone to set the pace for everyone else. Someone to say "get on my back boys". How many more games till Frings is back?

reggie
04-08-2012, 12:24 AM
the fact that winter has played his son inlaw HARDEN every min of every game is fkking shocking,the fact that harden gets paid to play futbol is even more shocking.

boozilla
04-08-2012, 12:29 AM
I keep reading about the team being "built around Frings".
We have THREE DPs. Frings has paid his dues.
Expecting his comeback to be the turnaround puts unwarranted pressure on him.
As a pro he will deliver, but no lessons will be learnt.

Auzzy
04-08-2012, 12:41 AM
I also heard Winter's interview, where he said there will be personnel changes on the field in the coming weeks. That is good to hear -- but I somehow doubt that the changes will be the ones that people on this board expect, or will be happy with. Will it really be JDG, Dunfield & Harden that are sitting? We will have to wait & see.

I'm personally worried about some of the guys that could be inserted into the weak spots. We don't have the personnel to properly plug the holes, especially until Frings is back (or if he sustains any more knocks later in the season). E.g., who to play at CB? Many folks are calling for Henry and Emory to start in those positions -- but unless we see lots of other changes at the same time, I'm certain those two guys are going to have a very rough time. Agreed that they look better so far than most of the other options -- but they're still relatively young or experienced. There's surely a reason why Emory was playing for the Islanders in the lower division so far. Similarly, Henry is guaranteed to have some major brainfarts if he's playing CB, and gets hung out to dry as happens with our defenders all the time, especially w/o a stud experienced CB to mentor him. Others are calling for Cann-- but he was never very fast to begin with, or very good with the ball -- and he is recovering after not playing for a whole year. I'm not expecting miracles from Adrian.

There aren't many defenders in the whole league who could contend with the pressure caused by over 60% possession by the opponent, w/o making at least a few major errors. I think we could very well be setting up the next scapegoats. (Obviously JDG/Dunfield/Harden/Aceval have played poorly, but the problems have been much more widespread than a few specific players.) I also have concerns in midfield. Do we have any proper midfield destroyers, who can also make a decent pass to maintain possession and start the attack? Do we really have an AM who can contribute, if RJ isn't the right guy for that job? Many people are calling for Silva and/or Avila, but I have my doubts. I just don't know if they're tough or assertive enough to start & boss that position in midfield in this league. Sometimes Silva may be just too "silky" for MLS -- his passes & shots have often been weak in the games that matter. He's another guy who really should be eased into play, with some limited minutes & time off the bench in specific games, until he gets used to the league. But we hardly have the luxury of time.

I think the only option for now, is to play more compact at the back, much more defensive support from the DMs, smaller gaps between D - M - F, and Morgan/Ecks (or whoever plays fullback) staying home more of the time -- unless a DM or winger does a much better job of covering for the fullbacks when they storm forward. Similarly, the whole team is going to have to work & run much harder, to put more pressure on the opponents all over the field, and not give them lots of time to whip in the perfect passes.

In the games so far this season (incl. CCL), TFC has shown a few stretches where they know how to play, given the personnel & limitations that we have on the squad. Can they play like that much more often? I think it's our only hope.

Brooker
04-08-2012, 12:59 AM
Rabble rabble rabble

Roogsy
04-08-2012, 02:23 AM
We "square up" to other fans by not accepting defeat, and chanting for the full 90. I would hope you arnt suggesting violence. Violence has no place in football.

I think he was talking about the team and their not showing any fire or standing up for the fans.

Brooker
04-08-2012, 03:04 AM
but was there a garbage bag tifo?

Batman
04-08-2012, 06:16 AM
Perhaps one of the biggest problems this club has had since day one is the lack of a dedicated club President. Myself and several other members here have been saying it for years. Tom Anselmi oversees several departments at MLSE, including TFC. I don't want to be too critical of the man because for all I know, he had the job thrown in his lap. But we need someone in charge who understands the fundamentals of the sport, the structural and operational details of the league, and has a greater sense of stewardship toward the team.

Great point, Cash. At least it would be a step in the right direction.

TOBOR !
04-08-2012, 06:32 AM
I think everyone's overreacting. We're a sixth year expansion side.

Pookie
04-08-2012, 07:22 AM
Uninspiring.

The one connection to every season has been Anselmi. Winter deserves to be accountable for MLS results but also deserves credit for CONCACAF which may be as far as an MLS side ever gets in the near and distant future.

In Winter, there is something there to work with.

No stomach for a 7th head coach to be plugged into a scenario which has "set up to fail" written all over it. TFC need an experienced football leader, at Anselmi's level, to guide/question/challenge/support decisions made by Winter/Mariner. Until that changes, it will be the same story.

ensco
04-08-2012, 07:57 AM
We needed a heart today. Someone to set the pace for everyone else. Someone to say "get on my back boys". How many more games till Frings is back?

The problem with this is, for all his quality in every aspect, Frings is an injury-prone, aged, rental player. He can't ever be the guy you're looking for.

cmonyoureds
04-08-2012, 08:10 AM
I think he was talking about the team and their not showing any fire or standing up for the fans.

Exactly! One of my favorite TFC moments was in our building when Dero gave it to the Impact player who gave us the "shush" finger after scoring.
Ahhh to have any player with that kind of heart and fire step up on this team again...........*sigh*

Rene Kingsriver
04-08-2012, 08:11 AM
Uninspiring.

The one connection to every season has been Anselmi. Winter deserves to be accountable for MLS results but also deserves credit for CONCACAF which may be as far as an MLS side ever gets in the near and distant future.

In Winter, there is something there to work with.

No stomach for a 7th head coach to be plugged into a scenario which has "set up to fail" written all over it. TFC need an experienced football leader, at Anselmi's level, to guide/question/challenge/support decisions made by Winter/Mariner. Until that changes, it will be the same story.

Uninspiring is exactly how I'd describe Winter's management style. He's almost Prekiesque with his sullen diffidence sometimes, maybe its a language thing but I can't say I feel any kind of connection to him even after 15 months or whatever in charge. By my count we've played 14 CCL games under Winter and 38 MLS games. Regardless of the successes in other competitions league play is where he should be judged. I'm sticking with my opinion that Winter should be given halfway through this season, the number of coaches we've had is irrelevant. If you were in an unhappy marriage it doesn't make sense staying in it just because you've been divorced 5 times before. Is the Anselmi role in other franchises filled by a football person? I'd expect the President/CEO at any club to be the representative of the ownership.

cmonyoureds
04-08-2012, 08:12 AM
I think everyone's overreacting. We're a sixth year expansion side.

Yeah, give em time. They're building something special here. Don't worry, winning will make everything OK.

Pookie
04-08-2012, 08:43 AM
Uninspiring is exactly how I'd describe Winter's management style. He's almost Prekiesque with his sullen diffidence sometimes, maybe its a language thing but I can't say I feel any kind of connection to him even after 15 months or whatever in charge. By my count we've played 14 CCL games under Winter and 38 MLS games. Regardless of the successes in other competitions league play is where he should be judged. I'm sticking with my opinion that Winter should be given halfway through this season, the number of coaches we've had is irrelevant. If you were in an unhappy marriage it doesn't make sense staying in it just because you've been divorced 5 times before. Is the Anselmi role in other franchises filled by a football person? I'd expect the President/CEO at any club to be the representative of the ownership.

League play is not where he should be judged exclusively. His play against MLS and international teams in an interwoven schedule is a measuring stick as to how he can manage fitness, travel, adapting to multiple styles of play, etc. He gets a failing grade when it comes to MLS performance and certainly earns a very big passing grade when it comes to CONCACAF.

Admittedly, it is weird. At the end of the day, if he isn't the right guy then fine, move on. However, the 7th guy is going to go into the same structure that the other 6 guys did. Why should we expect any different results?

I don't want to go team by team on whether the President needs Football experience but Tom Payne was the COO and President of Business Operations with the LA Galaxy. He spent 3 seasons as the Club's Assistant GM and while he oversaw tickets and the like, he also "assisted" Bruce Arena with decisions related to players. LA was very successful with him at the top.

The President role carries with it some business aspects to it and Anselmi clearly has that down pat. When it comes to soccer, or having his fingers on the hockey team, or on the basketball team before re-organization, what banner raising ceremonies has he been a part of?

If you've been married 5 times before, maybe the problem has nothing to do with your spouse(s).

ensco
04-08-2012, 09:11 AM
As terrible as we looked yesterday, it was really only the first of the 4 league games where I thought we were genuinely bad.

This team had a two goal advantage after 135 minutes against the best team in the Mexican league. It has to mean something. Doesn't it?

ManUtd4ever
04-08-2012, 09:16 AM
As terrible as we looked yesterday, it was really only the first of the 4 league games where I thought we were genuinely bad.

This team had a two goal advantage after 135 minutes against the best team in the Mexican league. It has to mean something. Doesn't it?

This team reminds me of...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_e_ebNZIVKzU/TLiiaaTXnoI/AAAAAAAADiU/Qh3-GLuN2f8/s1600/jekyll-and-hyde.jpg

jazzy
04-08-2012, 09:34 AM
Exactly! One of my favorite TFC moments was in our building when Dero gave it to the Impact player who gave us the "shush" finger after scoring.
Ahhh to have any player with that kind of heart and fire step up on this team again...........*sigh*

yup apparently Dero was following our game with Santos,...still cares,......

reggie
04-08-2012, 09:55 AM
where is PM these days, we never hear a word from him,is he pulling a MO.

Beach_Red
04-08-2012, 09:56 AM
As terrible as we looked yesterday, it was really only the first of the 4 league games where I thought we were genuinely bad.

This team had a two goal advantage after 135 minutes against the best team in the Mexican league. It has to mean something. Doesn't it?

Maybe it means we got played. Maybe Santos were in complete control of the competiton and were never worried about the outcome. So far in league play the opposition has done just enough to win - every game. Has TFC even had a lead in any of the games?

London
04-08-2012, 10:01 AM
they seem to play to the level of the opposition every match, actually just below it on many many days

whyalwaysme11
04-08-2012, 10:48 AM
As terrible as we looked yesterday, it was really only the first of the 4 league games where I thought we were genuinely bad.

This team had a two goal advantage after 135 minutes against the best team in the Mexican league. It has to mean something. Doesn't it?

how would you rate our performance in the first 3 league games? good?
santos played like garbage the entire game.
giving up the late first half goal ruined us.
as far as i am concerned we gave the game away

Oldtimer
04-08-2012, 11:35 AM
how would you rate our performance in the first 3 league games? good?
santos played like garbage the entire game.
giving up the late first half goal ruined us.
as far as i am concerned we gave the game away

It's easy to say things like this, but you have to then give examples, or it sounds like you are just spouting negative things off of the top of your head.

Santos was clinical on their attacking end, but somewhat disorganized in their defense (which is also their weak area). They followed their usual strategy against American/Canadian teams and applied a lot of pressure in the second half at home, leading to defensive breakdowns. They did this against Seattle and beat them. Did they "play like garbage" then, but it was only Seattle's failings that made Seattle lose?

Now back to topic, neither Montreal nor Toronto looked good, in fact Toronto looked totally wiped, which is what you'd expect. It was more the flip of a coin which team would win.

jloome
04-08-2012, 11:51 AM
As terrible as we looked yesterday, it was really only the first of the 4 league games where I thought we were genuinely bad.

This team had a two goal advantage after 135 minutes against the best team in the Mexican league. It has to mean something. Doesn't it?

Yeah, it means we're three or four consistently weak players away from being a competitive team. That's all it means. Most of our players are good, work hard, and should stay. They're let down by an absent midfield and sub-par central defending.

Possibly also by a lack of tactical adjustment and a motivating coach. But those two are pretty speculative.

jloome
04-08-2012, 11:55 AM
Maybe it means we got played. Maybe Santos were in complete control of the competiton and were never worried about the outcome. So far in league play the opposition has done just enough to win - every game. Has TFC even had a lead in any of the games?

We were up twice in Santos, so they obviously weren't in complete control of the competition.

ManUtd4ever
04-08-2012, 11:55 AM
It's a real shame that Cronin and Tchani were given away for nothing. Our current group is sorely in need of two young box to box midfielders of that ilk.

SoccMan
04-08-2012, 12:19 PM
Here is a list of names spelling might not be correct but here goes, Harden,Garcia,Marco Reda,Velez,Iro and I might be missing a few I think I will put them in the "TFC Center Backs hall of Shame", feel free to add more names.

Rene Kingsriver
04-08-2012, 12:22 PM
... If you've been married 5 times before, maybe the problem has nothing to do with your spouse(s).

True but its still not a reason to stay unhappily married is it

Pookie
04-08-2012, 01:18 PM
True but its still not a reason to stay unhappily married is it

Might be a reason to get therapy first and determine if there is anything you can change before you give away half your stuff... again.

spe18
04-08-2012, 01:38 PM
It was more the flip of a coin which team would win.

Actually, we all knew the Montreal Impact were going to win, at least based on the fact that 6/7 "experts" on mlssoccer.com all picked the Impact. Then again, they were all totally wrong in the Portland-Chivas USA game ;)

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/04/06/pick-em-mlssoccercom-editors-pick-weekend-matches

TorontoGooner
04-08-2012, 01:57 PM
I think he was talking about the team and their not showing any fire or standing up for the fans.

Indeed. Classless act by a team playing in a shit stadium with fans who need reminding when to cheer. Let them have it. 23000 fans when you have 60000 seats in your first year is embarrassing, quite frankly. The Impact fans in the supporters section were good, but the douchebags sat in the sections next to us made asses of themselves.

As for us. Dunfield is absolutely appalling. Like, really bad. He's useless and someone needs to tell me what he brings to them team. He can f**k off back to Vancouver as far as I'm concerned. And don't even get me started on Harden.

Think I lack loyalty Well I just took three days off work and made a 800 mile round trip to watch my team not even give a shit. At least have the decency to stick up for your own fans when they're goaded by your fellow 'professionals'.

Pissed of. But dammit I miss away days so deep down I guess I loved it.

Rene Kingsriver
04-08-2012, 02:00 PM
Indeed. Classless act by a team playing in a shit stadium with fans who need reminding when to cheer. Let them have it. 23000 fans when you have 60000 seats in your first year is embarrassing, quite frankly. The Impact fans in the supporters section were good, but the douchebags sat in the sections next to us made asses of themselves.

As for us. Dunfield is absolutely appalling. Like, really bad. He's useless and someone needs to tell me what he brings to them team. He can f**k off back to Vancouver as far as I'm concerned. And don't even get me started on Harden.

Think I lack loyalty Well I just took three days off work and made a 800 mile round trip to watch my team not even give a shit. At least have the decency to stick up for your own fans when they're goaded by your fellow 'professionals'.

Pissed of. But dammit I miss away days so deep down I guess I loved it.

The only two TFC players I can remember standing up for the fans when we're being taunted were Jimmy B against Villa and De Ro as previously mentioned. At BMO virtually every opposition player runs over to goad home fans when they score and none of our team bat an eyelid

ensco
04-08-2012, 02:16 PM
At BMO virtually every opposition player runs over to goad home fans when they score and none of our team bat an eyelid

I don't think this is fair.

1. When you have the turnover we've had, what do you expect? How many guys have been here long enough to feel like it's anything more than a stop on the road?

2. I think that players are wary about this, they can get into trouble with their manager/FO for getting too involved with what is going on with the supporters. Teams don't like it. It was certainly a factor in the Dichio endgame.

cmonyoureds
04-08-2012, 02:38 PM
I don't think this is fair.

1. When you have the turnover we've had, what do you expect? How many guys have been here long enough to feel like it's anything more than a stop on the road?

2. I think that players are wary about this, they can get into trouble with their manager/FO for getting too involved with what is going on with the supporters. Teams don't like it. It was certainly a factor in the Dichio endgame.

1. That's a pretty fair statement, hadn't really thought of that. But consider, had they run over and celebrated in front of our bench like that would it have been a different reaction? Would that just be a stop on the road?

2. Again, pretty fair statement. Although if a front office is public record to have said "don't involve or encourage your fans", that's gotta be the beginning of the end to the support they're gonna get.

Red CB Toronto
04-08-2012, 04:26 PM
Despite the loss, had a pretty good and fun overall day in Montreal, starting with a 7 am breakfast at Dunns consisting of smoked meat and poutine. The Big 0 with 23k in it made it feel sparse, but the TFC supporters sections were good. Had a great time at McLeans, the Towers of Beer were a popular hit for most there. Then on to the Leafs to see them go down big time to the Habs, before getting out of town on a 12:15 bus.

spe18
04-08-2012, 04:56 PM
Indeed. Classless act by a team playing in a shit stadium with fans who need reminding when to cheer. Let them have it. 23000 fans when you have 60000 seats in your first year is embarrassing, quite frankly. The Impact fans in the supporters section were good, but the douchebags sat in the sections next to us made asses of themselves.

As for us. Dunfield is absolutely appalling. Like, really bad. He's useless and someone needs to tell me what he brings to them team. He can f**k off back to Vancouver as far as I'm concerned. And don't even get me started on Harden.

Think I lack loyalty Well I just took three days off work and made a 800 mile round trip to watch my team not even give a shit. At least have the decency to stick up for your own fans when they're goaded by your fellow 'professionals'.

Pissed of. But dammit I miss away days so deep down I guess I loved it.

23,000 fans is quite good, considering the actual stadium where they'll be playing will have a capacity of only have about 20,000 or so. And considering this was at 12:00 on a Saturday afternoon, not bad at all.

Edit: Of course I forgot to factor in the 1000+ TFC fans that made the trip up the 401/20, but even then that's about 22,000 Impact fans!

Torontotonto
04-08-2012, 05:32 PM
I think everyone's overreacting. We're a sixth year expansion side.

Overreacting ?
Don't think so.

whyalwaysme11
04-08-2012, 08:30 PM
It's easy to say things like this, but you have to then give examples, or it sounds like you are just spouting negative things off of the top of your head.

Santos was clinical on their attacking end, but somewhat disorganized in their defense (which is also their weak area). They followed their usual strategy against American/Canadian teams and applied a lot of pressure in the second half at home, leading to defensive breakdowns. They did this against Seattle and beat them. Did they "play like garbage" then, but it was only Seattle's failings that made Seattle lose?

Now back to topic, neither Montreal nor Toronto looked good, in fact Toronto looked totally wiped, which is what you'd expect. It was more the flip of a coin which team would win.

note to self... think before you type.

JavierMartini
04-09-2012, 05:58 AM
When your team plays football for under five minutes of a game, you have a problem.

Dunfield and deguz have no forward vision, RJ is not an am.

I'd like to have vitti back. Vitti was prob. The best 2nd striker we've had; beat one- two defenders thread a pass. (With nothing to pass to he often tried to do too much) At the time we had next to nothing infront of him and a coach who couldn't realize half the attacking poetential of that team.
I remember vitti getting hung at the gallows on here and laughed. Now he's tearing it up down south .......

We used to have one of the best midfields, but no attacking and defence.

Now we have no midfield no defence and good strikers.

MLS is a tragic comedy.

JavierMartini
04-09-2012, 06:23 AM
For the team we have right now we should be using more crosses into the box, wear down their team and utilize plata as a super sub in the second half to run at and around tired legs. RJ and koevs need to be rooted infront of net. They are both trees and are most valuble to us heading (rj) and poaching rebounds (koevs) I think if we
----------RJ------Koevs---------
-----------------avila------------
----stinson----------silva-------
-------------deguz---------------
Morgan--aceval--not harden-- ecks

Grow a pair winter. Have the big men pound the box and then on the 60 th min super sub speedy plata, lambe and soolsma in.

-----plata-----koevs-------soolsma

----------lambe-----------avila-----
------------------deguz------------

tfc007
04-09-2012, 07:49 AM
http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/styles/AnimatedArena/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT !http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/styles/AnimatedArena/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1470316#post1470316)I think everyone's overreacting. We're a sixth year expansion side. Sorry tabor have to disagree with you on this one! This weekend game against Chivas is calling for rain mixed in with empty seats that look like big gaping holes just like the TFC defense!

Juanito
04-09-2012, 08:36 AM
It's a real shame that Cronin and Tchani were given away for nothing. Our current group is sorely in need of two young box to box midfielders of that ilk.

I may be wrong, but wasn't Cronin given away to make room for De Guzman? Double kick in the nards.

TOBOR !
04-09-2012, 08:49 AM
oh, you guys !

Anyway, 23K in the Big O, with 1K of travelling support, against what will be your number 1 rival in the first year of your MLS adventure is downright poor (in my opinion, of course).

To me this indicates there won't be many sellouts at Saputo at all.

There should have been no fewer that 30K to make the effort worthwhile. I can see Montreal management rethinking any plans to take games back there in future.

brad
04-09-2012, 09:45 AM
I may be wrong, but wasn't Cronin given away to make room for De Guzman? Double kick in the nards.

Nope. JDG came end of 2009, Cronin went in 2010. Didn't we can Dichio to make room for JDG?

JavierMartini
04-09-2012, 09:45 AM
Toopy and binou should be our cbs

Beach_Red
04-09-2012, 10:28 AM
oh, you guys !

Anyway, 23K in the Big O, with 1K of travelling support, against what will be your number 1 rival in the first year of your MLS adventure is downright poor (in my opinion, of course).

To me this indicates there won't be many sellouts at Saputo at all.

There should have been no fewer that 30K to make the effort worthwhile. I can see Montreal management rethinking any plans to take games back there in future.

Wasn't this game only there because Saputo is still being renovated and wasn't available? A soccer rivalry is certainly going to grow between these two teams, but it has a long way to go.

Fort York Redcoat
04-09-2012, 10:37 AM
^Correct. Can't believe they couldn't do more though. Give tix away like their CCL 1/4 final a couple years ago.

trane
04-09-2012, 11:04 AM
I will only say this. Compare Montreal's CBs with our own. We are in year six, and we have not even come close to having a CB of Ferrari's quality. Even on the chance in the first for Danny, Ferrari made an inteligent play to try to cut the ball off, just missing it. Frings is the best defender we have ever had and he is not a natrual CB.


We are improving. But everyone seems to be able to improve much facter then us. There is something wrong at our chore.

trane
04-09-2012, 11:09 AM
^ We are pinning our hopes on a return of Cann. I like the kid, but seriously he does not compare, to what Montreal have in Ferrari.

[ I am saying this as someone who stopped watching after the red, as I am tiered of this shit)

JavierMartini
04-09-2012, 11:13 AM
I will only say this. Compare Montreal's CBs with our own. We are in year six, and we have not even come close to having a CB of Ferrari's quality. Even on the chance in the first for Danny, Ferrari made an inteligent play to try to cut the ball off, just missing it. Frings is the best defender we have ever had and he is not a natrual CB.


We are improving. But everyone seems to be able to improve much facter then us. There is something wrong at our chore.

While this may be true, we also used to have midfield. We've never had a rock solid defence though. Frings is not our cb. Deguzman is expendable and we should look to solidify that position with a solid defender.

Belfast_Boy
04-09-2012, 11:14 AM
This trip was like a Clint Eastwood movie. The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.

The Good: seeing a lot friends. working on the displays. drinking. being in Montreal.

The Bad: Douchebag Limp Act players.

The Ugly: our performance. JDG? really!!! FFS! you're shit I feel so sorry for Kocic. our defending is utter shite! I know a lot can be said about Dunfield and Harden but they are bench players. JDG isn't good enough to justify his cost.

This is a terrible start to the season.

London
04-09-2012, 11:14 AM
^^^ i thought ferrari was shit at first but he is playing better for sure, he would be the starting CB for TFC no matter who is currently in the lineup

jazzy
04-09-2012, 11:29 AM
http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/styles/AnimatedArena/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT !http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/styles/AnimatedArena/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1470316#post1470316)I think everyone's overreacting. We're a sixth year expansion side. Sorry tabor have to disagree with you on this one! This weekend game against Chivas is calling for rain mixed in with empty seats that look like big gaping holes just like the TFC defense!

I may be wrong but I think Tobor's sarcasm is not being read here......duh every year we are an expansion side

trane
04-09-2012, 01:37 PM
While this may be true, we also used to have midfield. We've never had a rock solid defence though. Frings is not our cb. Deguzman is expendable and we should look to solidify that position with a solid defender.

He is not, but he has done the best on the back line when he has been deployed as a sweeper.

Carefree
04-09-2012, 02:07 PM
^Correct. Can't believe they couldn't do more though. Give tix away like their CCL 1/4 final a couple years ago.

Actually, my understanding is that they gave away two extra tickets to every STH. People in Montreal simply do not give a flying fuck about any team not named Les Canadiens. They do, however, care about being part of the latest happening, which is what their 58,000-spectator home opener was. Don't go thinking people were there because they care about the team. The only people who care about the Impact were the 100-odd people behind the net.

trane
04-09-2012, 02:09 PM
^^^ i thought ferrari was shit at first but he is playing better for sure, he would be the starting CB for TFC no matter who is currently in the lineup

In the game or in the season? I thought he was solid in the game from the start. Again he tried to cut the ball, alla Canavarro circa 06, and just missed it, but I would not call that a poor decision but a failure to get to the ball.

Yohan
04-09-2012, 02:36 PM
In the game or in the season? I thought he was solid in the game from the start. Again he tried to cut the ball, alla Canavarro circa 06, and just missed it, but I would not call that a poor decision but a failure to get to the ball.

the judge is still out there, but Ferrari looks like a good pick up. he's still getting used to the nature of MLS, but once he figures out the league, he has potential to be a very good player. you really can't argue with his pedigree

whyalwaysme11
04-09-2012, 04:08 PM
In the game or in the season? I thought he was solid in the game from the start. Again he tried to cut the ball, alla Canavarro circa 06, and just missed it, but I would not call that a poor decision but a failure to get to the ball.

he is organized and controls the back
always was and always will be a solid reliable defender
he would never pull the moves that aceval pulls he keeps it clean and clears the ball when it needs to be cleared just like our boy ecks does

JavierMartini
04-09-2012, 06:43 PM
Aceval would be fine if he cut the cute dipsy doodles outa his game. As for the goal, kocic has to be louder and or learn keeper in spanish. Endof/

Toronto
04-09-2012, 06:45 PM
Actually, my understanding is that they gave away two extra tickets to every STH. People in Montreal simply do not give a flying fuck about any team not named Les Canadiens. They do, however, care about being part of the latest happening, which is what their 58,000-spectator home opener was. Don't go thinking people were there because they care about the team. The only people who care about the Impact were the 100-odd people behind the net.

Everyone who buys a season ticket cares about the team they're buying it for. I know people who watch every TFC game on TV and haven't been to a single home game due to work, cost or they coach the game. To say that if you're not part of a supporters group you don't care about your team is BULLSHIT.

Let's face it. If you're a casual fan in Montreal and the game is at noon and the opponent is a team who hasn't made the play-offs in six years and in the next few weeks , Henry Red Bull and Beckham Galaxy are coming to town, are you really going to make an extra effort to see JDG play?? I don't think a single casual fan in Montreal thinks we're their biggest rival. Montreal doesn't have the same small town hate-on for Toronto as Toronto has for Montreal. Over the last 15 years--The Leafs have bee terrible. The Argos have been terrible. No Expos. No NBA team. Their natural rivals would be Boston due to the Bruins.

AND I doubt if we played the Impact at Roger Centres we'd get more than 23K either. Who gives a shit about their line-up? I'd rather see KC three times this year. Simply due to the increase in quality of opponent.

Brooker
04-09-2012, 07:44 PM
Montreal doesn't have the same small town hate-on for Toronto as Toronto has for Montreal.

This might just be the most ridiculous thing I've read on here all week.

jloome
04-09-2012, 08:06 PM
Aceval would be fine if he cut the cute dipsy doodles outa his game. As for the goal, kocic has to be louder and or learn keeper in spanish. Endof/

No man, I agree with you about a lot (particularly Pablo Vitti) but not this one. His positioning is really bad and he react with Dunfield-esque slowness to the pace of the game. I just don't think he's built for this style of football.

jloome
04-09-2012, 08:10 PM
Montreal doesn't have the same small town hate-on for Toronto as Toronto has for Montreal.

Uh, I grew up and went to school just outside Montreal, and this is absolutely the most incorrect statement I've ever seen on these boards, and that's saying something. I'm not from Toronto either, and I've spent a lot more time in Montreal than Toronto. But I can tell you Toronto's "hate" for Montreal is the Habs, and that's it. Other htan that, most Torontonians could care less if Montreal exists. Conversely, Montreal is Canada's former bigger city and the cultural hate there for Toronto has been ever-present since that era.

Spend a long time in both cities and it's clear the inferiority complex in Montreal about the city in general is far, far greater a factor than Toronto's hockey inferiority complex.

Yohan
04-09-2012, 09:11 PM
The Good
-Koevermans getting the duck off his back. He's been getting more dangerous each game, and I think the goals will start to come, as long as he's still motivated to score.
-Kocic. My MOM
-Away support

The Bad
-Harden, JDG and Dunfield. Nuff said

The Ugly
-Utter lack of heart by most of the team. Other than Koevermans, Kocic and Eckersley, most of the team played like they couldn't give a shit.
Part of it is due to high turnover rate, and a lot of the players do not seem to identified themselves with the badge yet. At least up to around season 3, there were core players like Dichio, Robbo and Brennan who've been around since year 1 and who knows about the culture of the club to pass on to the new years. Well, we shall see what comes out of this group, whether they choose to give a damn about this club or not.
I know I could not have played this shitty against two biggest rivals. (Do the players knew that this was a big rivalry game?) If I was TFC FO, I would have made the players watch a video about rivalry with Montreal, incl 08 Voyageurs Cup when Mtl won it at BMO Field, and 09 Voyageurs Cup at Stade Saputo, to make them know a little about club history and rivalry. Maybe they wouldn't have played so heartless then.

-Lacking pride
You let your rivals score on you, and you just calmly watch them celebrate the goal in front of your away supporters? Are you fucking kidding me? First chance I get, I would have put in a hard challenge into Ubiparovic or whatever the twat's name is, and you send a message. You fight for your pride. TFC didn't have any pride at all

-Leadership
I'm a big fan of leadership, and I think Frings proves that leadership is important in soccer, especially a bunch of egos like soccer players. Frings not only leads by example, but he's got the character to lead. JDG, not so much. He acts like he's got a spine of a jellyfish. If you are a player, would you give someone like JDG the respect as a captain and listen to him? JDG has motivation skill of a dodo in my opinion.
If I was Winter, I'd strip JDG of captaincy and give it to Eckersley. At least Ecks may be a bit of firebrand, but he actually acts like he gives a shit. After Ecks, Kocic.

-Fan Appreciation
I don't care how tired you are, or what sort of emo problems you have after the big loss at Torreon. If you can't take a few steps to show appreciation to about a thousand of your supporters who put in a lot of time and money to support you away from Toronto, you have your priorities wrong. I have a feeling that a lot of the team seems to take the supporters for granted and that really pisses me off.

Kooper
04-09-2012, 09:12 PM
Has it been mentioned that this is the worst start for the team since the first season? So far we have lost to an expansion team and two teams that started playing after we joined the league (Seattle and the reborn San Jose.) Putting these losses on the lack of Frings just shows our total lack of depth or ability on the rest of the park.

I after six losing seasons I am starting to lose faith that it will ever get better. I am tired of new "Five year plans" and "This year we have something special."

Yohan
04-09-2012, 09:17 PM
I'm not sure how many people were watching UM02 do their thing, but I was impressed. They were pretty small in size (but much bigger than last time I saw them in 09) and they were passionate and enthusiastic. Their banner making skills suck, but they were going nuts for entire 90, plus like 10mins after the game, chanting and bouncing and whatever.

I hope they get a lot of room to grow in Stade Saputo, and it'll be good for supporter's culture in this league. I think these guys will surpass us soon, if we don't step up. (TFC supporters have gotten complacent and falling behind to a lot of supporter groups, while others are stepping it up. See the Cauldron at Kansas City)

Yohan
04-09-2012, 09:22 PM
oh yeah. TFC lost to Mtl's A- team. FFS. Bernier, Mapp, Braun and Arnaud weren't in starting line up *mad*

Abou Sky
04-09-2012, 09:35 PM
Uh, I grew up and went to school just outside Montreal, and this is absolutely the most incorrect statement I've ever seen on these boards, and that's saying something. I'm not from Toronto either, and I've spent a lot more time in Montreal than Toronto. But I can tell you Toronto's "hate" for Montreal is the Habs, and that's it. Other htan that, most Torontonians could care less if Montreal exists. Conversely, Montreal is Canada's former bigger city and the cultural hate there for Toronto has been ever-present since that era.

Spend a long time in both cities and it's clear the inferiority complex in Montreal about the city in general is far, far greater a factor than Toronto's hockey inferiority complex.

(I don't know where the up pointing key is, but I would use it if I did)

Most people I know in Toronto like Montreal and the people that live there. Everyone outside the 416 hates Toronto.

DOMIN8R
04-09-2012, 09:42 PM
http://rlv.zcache.com/generalization_is_always_wrong_tshirt-p235374863971463315zvph3_210.jpg

Abou Sky
04-09-2012, 09:47 PM
I'm not sure how many people were watching UM02 do their thing, but I was impressed. They were pretty small in size (but much bigger than last time I saw them in 09) and they were passionate and enthusiastic. Their banner making skills suck, but they were going nuts for entire 90, plus like 10mins after the game, chanting and bouncing and whatever.


Someone needs to teach them to make banners...

Truth be told, I like MTL, in 31 of 34 MLS season games I am rooting for them... they REALLY need better banners though.

I was thinking it would be funny to make a TIFO making fun of their crap TIFO, something that looks like theirs and says 'This is our kids TIFO' another sweet ass one that says 'And this is OURS'

Fort York Redcoat
04-10-2012, 06:48 AM
Actually, my understanding is that they gave away two extra tickets to every STH. People in Montreal simply do not give a flying fuck about any team not named Les Canadiens. They do, however, care about being part of the latest happening, which is what their 58,000-spectator home opener was. Don't go thinking people were there because they care about the team. The only people who care about the Impact were the 100-odd people behind the net.


Everyone who buys a season ticket cares about the team they're buying it for. I know people who watch every TFC game on TV and haven't been to a single home game due to work, cost or they coach the game. To say that if you're not part of a supporters group you don't care about your team is BULLSHIT.


There isn't a mention in that quote about SGs.


Let's face it. If you're a casual fan in Montreal and the game is at noon and the opponent is a team who hasn't made the play-offs in six years and in the next few weeks , Henry Red Bull and Beckham Galaxy are coming to town, are you really going to make an extra effort to see JDG play?? I don't think a single casual fan in Montreal thinks we're their biggest rival. Montreal doesn't have the same small town hate-on for Toronto as Toronto has for Montreal. Over the last 15 years--The Leafs have bee terrible. The Argos have been terrible. No Expos. No NBA team. Their natural rivals would be Boston due to the Bruins.

Already addressed above.


AND I doubt if we played the Impact at Roger Centres we'd get more than 23K either. Who gives a shit about their line-up? I'd rather see KC three times this year. Simply due to the increase in quality of opponent.

I would love to see a poll on that one. I'd hate to have to market a Sporting KC match at Rogers Centre.

ensco
04-10-2012, 06:51 AM
I'd hate to have to market a Sporting KC match at Rogers Centre.

How about "Come sit in a teal seat and see Teal Bunbury"?

Fort York Redcoat
04-10-2012, 07:12 AM
How about "Come sit in a teal seat and see Teal Bunbury"?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1yn5kXLvG1r40dfbo1_500.jpg

Sold! g:D


I actually do reserve a sizable amount of rancor for that fellow but I doubt its enough reason for 50k+ Torontonians to go. Not counting all the travelling "Sporting" support, of course.

brad
04-10-2012, 09:23 AM
Has it been mentioned that this is the worst start for the team since the first season? So far we have lost to an expansion team and two teams that started playing after we joined the league (Seattle and the reborn San Jose.) Putting these losses on the lack of Frings just shows our total lack of depth or ability on the rest of the park.

Repeatedly. It is also worth noting that in the first season, 3 of the first 4 games were away games, and this season only two of the 4 were away games.

Granted - we have had more fixture congestion at the start of this year than in year one.

Toronto
04-10-2012, 02:45 PM
This might just be the most ridiculous thing I've read on here all week.

Well I grew up Montreal and I have never met a French Canadian say a word about Toronto sports. Toronto could be Cleveland or Kansas City to them. The media in Toronto loves the idea that the city is hated everywhere else. That may be true in English Canada- as they are force fed a steady diet of Toronto based reporting through the networks. But in Quebec the TV networks and media are based in Montreal.

The most ridiculous thing I've read all week was that the worse thing to happen in Montreal to those that drove the 401 was the overpriced beer.

Cashcleaner
04-10-2012, 11:52 PM
Has it been mentioned that this is the worst start for the team since the first season? So far we have lost to an expansion team and two teams that started playing after we joined the league (Seattle and the reborn San Jose.) Putting these losses on the lack of Frings just shows our total lack of depth or ability on the rest of the park.

I after six losing seasons I am starting to lose faith that it will ever get better. I am tired of new "Five year plans" and "This year we have something special."

Which is exactly why I have a hard time taking people seriously when they say things like: "C'mon guys, we're not THAT bad" or; "at least we're playing better than last season".

I mean, look at who our opponents have been. Look at our goal differential. We actually are that bad! The big problem is that we've been through rough patches before but always found a little optimism in the future, but now a lot of goodwill from the fans and supporters has evaporated, I think.


Well I grew up Montreal and I have never met a French Canadian say a word about Toronto sports. Toronto could be Cleveland or Kansas City to them. The media in Toronto loves the idea that the city is hated everywhere else. That may be true in English Canada- as they are force fed a steady diet of Toronto based reporting through the networks. But in Quebec the TV networks and media are based in Montreal.

The most ridiculous thing I've read all week was that the worse thing to happen in Montreal to those that drove the 401 was the overpriced beer.

I've pretty much heard the same thing. Even when it comes to hockey, most Habs fans I know of scoff at the thought of Toronto being their rivals. They have more animosity toward Boston than any other club. That said, I think soccer is a bit different. I can honestly say I absolutely loathe the Impact and it's shitty fans, but that's okay because I'm sure at least a few of them think the same toward TFC and it's fans.

T-boy
04-11-2012, 09:26 AM
I'm literally just back from my trip....Montreal for the game and then Quebec City for some amazing food!

I haven't read through this thread yet as I don't want it to change my opinion of the game.

My big issue with TFC on Saturday (and before) is that they lack any type of co-ordination, especially going forward. Whenever any of our offensive players received the ball - ALL the other attackers run away from him, giving him very few options other than to "attempt" a cross or a VERY long range pass, and then inevitably that player loses the ball. That means that the attackers are constantly giving up possession of the ball, and then putting our midfield and defense constantly under pressure. And then NO defense in the world can be under THAT much pressure without eventually buckling.

And it isn't one of the attackers that are at fault - its ALL of them. They are playing like a bunch of total strangers! So, I can't help but wonder WHAT exactly Winter has had them working on all off-season? Its like they haven't played as a team together EVER!

I've always thought that the best form of defense is attack AND that the best way of defending is from the front of the pitch. But TFC aren't doing this at all well. Whenever TFC broke down a Montreal attack, the ball worked its way upfield, for the TFC attackers to the lose the ball instantly, and then Montreal were back on the attack again.

I know everybody on this forum is constantly complaining about individual defenders - but I think I have a MUCH bigger issue with the attack right now. TFC needs to keep the ball MUCH longer, use passes wisely, and stop putting our own back line under constant pressure!

Why do ALL the attackers run away from the winger (plata, Johnson, OR Soolsla) like they have a horrible disease whenever they have the ball? They need to go HELP the winger out - creating an angle for a pass! TFC are going to constaantly be on the defensive if they keep attempting to attack as 4 indivual players. They need to work as a TEAM!

Come on Aron Winter - stop blaming "individual errors" and admit that YOUR tactics just are NOT working!

trane
04-11-2012, 09:36 AM
^ there is too much space between the players, and this is hurting us at the back and in attack. I hope that he addresses it by adopting a more compact formation. I suggest that he sticks with the 4-3-3 ( as that is his thing) and keeps two DMs but pushes the wings back to make it look more like a 4-2-3-1 ( alla Mou Inter).

jloome
04-11-2012, 05:04 PM
^ there is too much space between the players, and this is hurting us at the back and in attack. I hope that he addresses it by adopting a more compact formation. I suggest that he sticks with the 4-3-3 ( as that is his thing) and keeps two DMs but pushes the wings back to make it look more like a 4-2-3-1 ( alla Mou Inter).

This is exactly what we did vs. Santos in the first game, and it worked beautifully.

I'm not sure if the issue is heart, so much as intelligence. I think JDG and Dunfield both make very poor positioning decisions, which has a lot to do with this.

Chris Wren
04-11-2012, 07:23 PM
To the people who claim Montreal fans don't care about Toronto....what? I was at the Super Sexe on Saturday night and 2 guys in Leaf jerseys walked in and almost everyone in the place booed them from the door to their seats, even with a girl onstage. Every person I've ever met from Montreal never shuts up about the Leafs.

Abou Sky
04-11-2012, 10:22 PM
To the people who claim Montreal fans don't care about Toronto....what? I was at the Super Sexe on Saturday night and 2 guys in Leaf jerseys walked in and almost everyone in the place booed them from the door to their seats, even with a girl onstage. Every person I've ever met from Montreal never shuts up about the Leafs.

That really doesn't make sense, we give them so many points.

Cashcleaner
04-12-2012, 01:18 AM
To the people who claim Montreal fans don't care about Toronto....what? I was at the Super Sexe on Saturday night and 2 guys in Leaf jerseys walked in and almost everyone in the place booed them from the door to their seats, even with a girl onstage. Every person I've ever met from Montreal never shuts up about the Leafs.

They would do the same if you came in with a Rangers, Ottawa, or Buffalo jersey as well. Montreal isn't so much anti-other hockey teams, they're just really REALLY pro-Canadiens.

trane
04-12-2012, 09:59 AM
This is exactly what we did vs. Santos in the first game, and it worked beautifully. I'm not sure if the issue is heart, so much as intelligence. I think JDG and Dunfield both make very poor positioning decisions, which has a lot to do with this.


It is about intelligence, we have been complaining about an overall lack of footy IQ with this team for years now, and it is getting better, but it is no nearly at the level it shuold be. So I hope that winter address it with changes that instill in them some basics, like the DM getting back to a good defensive position if they do not have the ball or not otherwise contributing to the offensive play at the time.

Beach_Red
04-12-2012, 10:19 AM
They would do the same if you came in with a Rangers, Ottawa, or Buffalo jersey as well. Montreal isn't so much anti-other hockey teams, they're just really REALLY pro-Canadiens.

Yes, there's a bunker-mentality in Quebec, for sure, a kind of "us against the world," and they don't really differentiate between the rest of the world. No Montreal team has ever tried to sell itself as, "Canada's team." The Canadiens aren't even "Quebec's team."

Chris Wren
04-12-2012, 10:28 AM
They don't like Toronto in Montreal, more so than other cities (Boston might be the exception in hockey). How can it even be questioned? This board blows my mind sometimes.

Beach_Red
04-12-2012, 10:38 AM
They don't like Toronto in Montreal, more so than other cities (Boston might be the exception in hockey). How can it even be questioned? This board blows my mind sometimes.

I lived in Montreal for thirty years. Toronto just isn't that special to them, they don't like anyone else. For the longest time they made fun of Toronto the way you do someone you kind of feel sorry for - no bars open on Sunday, you couldn't sit on a patio and have a drink. So now that's changed but Montreal doesn't care.

But the soccer rivalry is actually going to be good. Again, of course, Toronto is going to have to keep up its end and be competitive.

Carefree
04-12-2012, 12:30 PM
I lived in Montreal for thirty years. Toronto just isn't that special to them, they don't like anyone else. For the longest time they made fun of Toronto the way you do someone you kind of feel sorry for - no bars open on Sunday, you couldn't sit on a patio and have a drink. So now that's changed but Montreal doesn't care.

That's still the biggest stereotype Montrealers have toward Toronto: That it's a boring city. I lived the first 25 years of my life in Montreal and have been in Toronto for 15, and I can guarantee you that most Montrealers still believe there is nothing to do here, and they have no intention of ever coming here. No French Canadian from Montreal would ever say "hey, let's go spend the weekend partying in Toronto!" Actually on Friday night I was at a comedy club in Montreal and the idiot on stage was making jokes about how boring of a city Toronto was, and the crowd was howling in that "oh it's so true" way.

My point is, people in Montreal don't hate Toronto. The Leafs are just another rival to their beloved Canadiens, on par with the Bruins, Rangers, Red Wings, Flyers or any other team with which they have a history. Nothing special about the Leafs. For anything not hockey-related their attitude is a mixture of ignorance-bred condescension (Toronto is boring) and secret envy (Toronto has better jobs, waaaayyy more money, real estate is actually worth something) but there is no hatred. Hence, the TFC-Impact rivalry will have to develop on its own merits rather than depending on the supposed hatred between the two cities. And we're not doing too badly on that front.

Carefree
04-12-2012, 12:34 PM
They don't like Toronto in Montreal, more so than other cities (Boston might be the exception in hockey). How can it even be questioned? This board blows my mind sometimes.

How many years did you live in Montreal? Because your experience seems to be different from that of the other posters here who have actually lived there. It sounds like you're basing your opinions more on stereotypes rather than facts.

DoubleUp
04-12-2012, 02:30 PM
It is about intelligence, we have been complaining about an overall lack of footy IQ with this team for years now, and it is getting better, but it is no nearly at the level it should be. So I hope that winter address it with changes that instill in them some basics, like the DM getting back to a good defensive position if they do not have the ball or not otherwise contributing to the offensive play at the time.

This is the exact point I 've been trying to make for year as poster, We are not finding/aquiring the players that play this game smoothly and with experience. explain to me one of our wingers that has better footyiq/skill/speed/strength ability than nakajima........none of them.
Plus brings seasoned attacking experience to a younger squad.
people say "he's not the answer" maybe not, but he is one of them.
name me one of our central defenders right now that tackles/breaks play at pace better than nana................none
he should really be here in our system more than harden.

as club we have culturely been steern away from attractive, skilled players for more workman like players and because of this lack of creativity/quality.
We chased all the skilled/athletic footballers we did have out of town.


now we are only left with people that work hard, but cant control a pass or make a simple shot or consistently pentrate the final third.


We need to stop making the nice decisions and start making the ones that matter..............This is about winning bottom line.


ever seen a pro team fold???

Chris Wren
04-12-2012, 02:42 PM
So, you're at a club where a comedian is making fun of Toronto, and the people are both envious and purposefully ignorant and all get the jokes. I never used the word hate, but I hardly call those things neutral and non carring. I've never lived there, but have been there lots and know several ex Montrealers. Tell me this, what did the comedian have to say about Philadelphia?

Carefree
04-12-2012, 03:39 PM
So, you're at a club where a comedian is making fun of Toronto, and the people are both envious and purposefully ignorant and all get the jokes.


The jokes were very, very low-brow, as in "Isn't Toronto boring? Who wants to go to Toronto? Am I right people?" and they were rolling on the floors not because they know this to be true based on their experience, but because it fits their stereotypes, which are based on ignorance.


I never used the word hate, but I hardly call those things neutral and non carring.


I wouldn't say it's neutral either. But we were talking about how the general rivalry between the two cities would fuel the more specific rivalry between TFC and the Impact, and I and other ex-montrealers believe the perceived animosity they have toward us is overblown. That said, I never did any scientific study on the subject and all this is just my opinion.


I've never lived there, but have been there lots and know several ex Montrealers.

This is off-topic but it brings up something I wish I had thought about on Friday night so I could have heckeled that idiotic comedian. There are litterally tens of thousands of ex-Montrealers now living in Toronto, but in all my time living over there I never once met a former Torontonian who had moved permanently to Montreal (McGill students don't count since they usually get the hell out of there as soon as they get their degree). Must tell you something about which city is the better place to live.

jazzy
04-12-2012, 05:52 PM
I lived in Montreal for thirty years. Toronto just isn't that special to them, they don't like anyone else. For the longest time they made fun of Toronto the way you do someone you kind of feel sorry for - no bars open on Sunday, you couldn't sit on a patio and have a drink. So now that's changed but Montreal doesn't care.

But the soccer rivalry is actually going to be good. Again, of course, Toronto is going to have to keep up its end and be competitive.

this is basicly it, they used to feel sorry for us, because all we think of is work, and we're cheap, they think we're all scottish lol,..while all they think of is fun and work is just a means to have more fun,.....they live for pleasure, we're simply boring to quebecers,...lol, esp up north they love Canada, just want to speak French......

jazzy
04-12-2012, 05:55 PM
This is off-topic but it brings up something I wish I had thought about on Friday night so I could have heckeled that idiotic comedian. There are litterally tens of thousands of ex-Montrealers now living in Toronto, but in all my time living over there I never once met a former Torontonian who had moved permanently to Montreal (McGill students don't count since they usually get the hell out of there as soon as they get their degree). Must tell you something about which city is the better place to live.[/QUOTE]

no it's simply economics, however that may start changing as Ontario becomes a have-not province

Toronto
04-12-2012, 07:14 PM
There will be no rivalry until both teams start winning and competing against each other in the play-offs...

jazzy
04-12-2012, 10:25 PM
There will be no rivalry until both teams start winning and competing against each other in the play-offs...
just as in hockey/....oh ya it takes 2