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Detroit_TFC
04-05-2012, 08:40 AM
How much of his poor play is lack of adjustment and integration into the team and how much is that he is just a poor player?

Jack
04-05-2012, 08:43 AM
I think he is adjusting. I'll give him some time. The one who has run out of time for me is Mr. Julian De Guzman. Aceval gets a pass for some dumb mistakes, JDG gets my disgust for that stupid tackle. Captain my ass.

Detroit_TFC
04-05-2012, 08:45 AM
I think he is adjusting. I'll give him some time. The one who has run out of time for me is Mr. Julian De Guzman. Aceval gets a pass for some dumb mistakes, JDG gets my disgust for that stupid tackle. Captain my ass.

110% agreement on JDG. He is dead to me.

Canary10
04-05-2012, 08:49 AM
Adjusting or not, his decision to try to step in front of Gomez instead of staying goal side was terrible. A centre back in any youth league wouldn't have made that mistake. I think Henry should get his shot.

Pigfynn
04-05-2012, 08:51 AM
What a waste of time and money JDG has been. I don't want to shit on one of our own. I think there is far too much of that on this board, but his time here is over.

He is the last real relic of the MoJo era and the big money and the excuses and the "just wait for him to settle in" has all gone on waaaayyyyyy too long.

Get rid now. Use DP slot for a CB and pay big if you have to.

June/July say goodbye to JDG please. Enough is enough.

Jack
04-05-2012, 08:58 AM
Adjusting or not, his decision to try to step in front of Gomez instead of staying goal side was terrible. A centre back in any youth league wouldn't have made that mistake. I think Henry should get his shot.
I can't disagree with this.

McBrace
04-05-2012, 08:59 AM
If JDG gets bought out does is his salary still count against the cap?

Pigfynn
04-05-2012, 09:00 AM
If JDG gets bought out does is his salary still count against the cap?

Now that's a topic worth discussing.

Nuvinho
04-05-2012, 09:00 AM
just imagine if Caicedo was still here - both him and Aceval on the backline.

I hope Aceval can turn it around

zeelaw
04-05-2012, 09:00 AM
110% agreement on JDG. He is dead to me.
lol, If you were a Canadian you wouldn't think that :P ... Saying that, his time for TFC is done for me.

Detroit_TFC
04-05-2012, 09:02 AM
From MLS Roster Rules:

(D) BUYOUT OF GUARANTEED CONTRACT
Teams may have the ability to buyout one guaranteed player as follows:


A Team may buy out one (1) guaranteed player (including a DP’s) contract during the off-season and free up the corresponding budget space. Such a buyout is at the particular MLS Team’s own expense.

A Team may not free up budget space with a buyout of a player’s salary budget charge during the season. Such a buyout will be conducted by the League and count on a Club’s budget in a manner consistent with current MLS guidelines


http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/roster-rules-and-regulations

Pigfynn
04-05-2012, 09:04 AM
From MLS Roster Rules:

(D) BUYOUT OF GUARANTEED CONTRACT
Teams may have the ability to buyout one guaranteed player as follows:


A Team may buy out one (1) guaranteed player (including a DP’s) contract during the off-season and free up the corresponding budget space. Such a buyout is at the particular MLS Team’s own expense.
A Team may not free up budget space with a buyout of a player’s salary budget charge during the season. Such a buyout will be conducted by the League and count on a Club’s budget in a manner consistent with current MLS guidelines


http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/roster-rules-and-regulations



:facepalm:

Yohan
04-05-2012, 09:04 AM
If JDG gets bought out does is his salary still count against the cap?
(D) BUYOUT OF GUARANTEED CONTRACT
Teams may have the ability to buyout one guaranteed player as follows:


A Team may buy out one (1) guaranteed player (including a DP’s) contract during the off-season and free up the corresponding budget space. Such a buyout is at the particular MLS Team’s own expense.

A Team may not free up budget space with a buyout of a player’s salary budget charge during the season. Such a buyout will be conducted by the League and count on a Club’s budget in a manner consistent with current MLS guidelines.

T-boy
04-05-2012, 09:08 AM
We have to give Aceval much more time. He's in a new city in a new country, playing in a new league with a new team. He's going to take time to fully adjust to the league/lifestyle/team. I know he's made some mistakes so far, but we can't judge him yet.

Same goes for any new player, and especially one who has moved to Canada from a foreign land.

Detroit_TFC
04-05-2012, 09:09 AM
lol, If you were a Canadian you wouldn't think that :P ... Saying that, his time for TFC is done for me.

I wish him the very best in his future endeavors. He needs to play somewhere other than TFC.

MartinUtd
04-05-2012, 09:12 AM
He's still better than Andy Iro. People just have short memories.

Davenport
04-05-2012, 09:17 AM
With the ball he's OK.....without it he's crap.
So, not a good defender.

J .
04-05-2012, 09:21 AM
I wish him the very best in his future endeavors. He needs to play somewhere other than TFC.

He need to go away from TFC and the NT. Hes been horrible more than he has been average. Never have I liked a player so much then disliked him much more than I do JDG over the past few seasons. He is getting worse every year.

Aceval had two massive mistakes and more. The leash will be short.

I wouldnt miss either if they never wore tfc red again.

London
04-05-2012, 09:24 AM
He's still better than Andy Iro. People just have short memories.


better than iro, that is worth a gold star and that's about it

supersaint
04-05-2012, 09:27 AM
Aceval is a bit of a bull in a china shop. He lacks pace and when paired up with Harden we are way too slow in the middle of defence. We must remember that not too many clubs in MLS could survive without two key central defenders for a season, Cann and Williams, most teams just do not have strength in depth in that department. Henry is coming along, he is still prone to defensive lapses but I see potential. Would be nice to be able to put Frings back into the midfield upon his return though.

craz11
04-05-2012, 09:30 AM
Just when I thought TFC couldn't find any worse CBs to play for the club, they trot out Aceval.

Honestly, who plays the offside trap on a throw in? THERE'S NO OFFSIDES ON A THROW!

And don't get me started on that handball...

ensco
04-05-2012, 09:30 AM
Interesting to note that Harden has been very good lately (even on the Gomez goal at halftime, I blame the lack of pressure on the ball, you can't expect CBs alone to handle a situation like that)

J .
04-05-2012, 09:31 AM
I hope ppl realize Cann and Willams were slow and our backline was horroble with them too. They are not a resolution to crap defending. Cant leave your cb's exposed in MLS. But hey, our goal differential proves me wrong, right?

rocker
04-05-2012, 09:31 AM
I'm willing to give Aceval a half season before I start judging. He did, after all, score a great goal last week. And I still believe what matters is having a good partner. Harden + Aceval is not a good pairing. You can afford to have a guy like Aceval there if you've got a beast of a CB next to him. But both have holes (most MLS players do), so without a strong partner he looks worse. I think Aceval was signed to be the offensive CB we've always needed (we've never had any that can pass), but to go along with a more stay at home guy like Caicedo or Cann...

JDG? I don't care about him anymore. He makes a lot of rookie mistakes for a guy who is making nearly 2 million a year. He's had good games here and there, but is not at the level of a DP that we need. A guy like Frings has done everything exactly as we need in a DP. Koevermans has 8 goals in 14 games. I can't criticize those two as DPs. But JDG has been a waste of the ~400K cap hit.

rocker
04-05-2012, 09:33 AM
Interesting to note that Harden has been very good lately (even on the Gomez goal at halftime, I blame the lack of pressure on the ball, you can't expect CBs alone to handle a situation like that)

I'm mixed on Harden. His game against San Jose at BMO was pretty poor. He is the bare minimum as a defender really. And he cannot make a pass to save his life. And he always chooses the absolute last ditch solution on plays. He's a good backup player but wouldn't start on any MLS team.

jabbronies
04-05-2012, 09:34 AM
Both of our CB's combined cost us 4 goals last night.

As much as I'd like to shit on Aceval because he is a shit player, I have to be fair and say that both of them are a fucking disaster.

Stouffville_RPB
04-05-2012, 09:35 AM
Let's not tear into our own player immediately again.

Did he make a few bad plays last night? Yes.
Should he be kicked off the team? No.

People often have knee jerk reactions. He was the one who scored last week to give us a fighting shot last night. I'm not excusing him for his play last night but just want people to remember he isn't only what you saw yesterday.

Jack
04-05-2012, 09:43 AM
Interesting to note that Harden has been very good lately (even on the Gomez goal at halftime, I blame the lack of pressure on the ball, you can't expect CBs alone to handle a situation like that)
Finally, someone who saw the same thing I saw. Calling offside or blaming that on Harden is avoiding the real issue, which is that our midfield and forwards allowed their backline and midfield all the time and space in the world to lob perfect balls over the top.

Jack
04-05-2012, 09:45 AM
Both of our CB's combined cost us 4 goals last night.

As much as I'd like to shit on Aceval because he is a shit player, I have to be fair and say that both of them are a fucking disaster.

Our lack of team defence exposed our CBs.

DoubleUp
04-05-2012, 09:52 AM
aceval was a bad aquisition, maybe give him more time but I dont think he has what it takes, for a chilean footballer his technical ability is suspect. I think with time emory is the guy. He's good with the ball at his feet and athletic just needs to tightenup a bit in certain areas but if thats the case we need a stud Rcb with good speed, technical ability and great reader of the game. I think aceval especial in a 4 man backline is in over his head.

Canary10
04-05-2012, 09:53 AM
"Our lack of team defence exposed our CBs."

I don't think that's true. In fact, I think our positioning was quite good for most of the first half with the exception of the very end. We kept shape, they were having trouble moving forward. We were also good at getting players behind the ball when we lost possession. The individual mistakes were more the problem. The first goal should never have happened. Aceval should have stayed goal side and jockied. Gomez probably wouldn't have turned him. If we play with that kind of shape in the league, I think the defence will improve. We have to stop the indidual mistakes.

Yohan
04-05-2012, 09:56 AM
Finally, someone who saw the same thing I saw. Calling offside or blaming that on Harden is avoiding the real issue, which is that our midfield and forwards allowed their backline and midfield all the time and space in the world to lob perfect balls over the top.

not to be used as an excuse, but the pitch at Santos Laguna is huge! it works to Santos Laguna's tactics

lerxst
04-05-2012, 09:57 AM
I think he was trying to play the offside. Take it easy on the guy and give him a chance. He didn't have that bad of a game to tell you the truth.

lerxst
04-05-2012, 09:59 AM
:| That sounded like an excuse. But, if by tactics you mean both superb ball control and ball placement, then yes. I agree.

Canary10
04-05-2012, 09:59 AM
^ I hope not. You kinda need to step up before the ball is kicked, not while it is dropping toward you.

Jack
04-05-2012, 10:00 AM
"Our lack of team defence exposed our CBs."

I don't think that's true. In fact, I think our positioning was quite good for most of the first half with the exception of the very end. We kept shape, they were having trouble moving forward. We were also good at getting players behind the ball when we lost possession. The individual mistakes were more the problem. The first goal should never have happened. Aceval should have stayed goal side and jockied. Gomez probably wouldn't have turned him. If we play with that kind of shape in the league, I think the defence will improve. We have to stop the indidual mistakes.

I should clarify, I was referring to the second goal (to me, the real dagger), where the lack of pressure up high allowed Harden to be burned by a perfect ball to Gomez. When quality players have that much time, they're going to play good balls. That was my point. I agree that individual error was the cause of the first and third goals.

TFC Cityboy
04-05-2012, 10:01 AM
Finally, someone who saw the same thing I saw. Calling offside or blaming that on Harden is avoiding the real issue, which is that our midfield and forwards allowed their backline and midfield all the time and space in the world to lob perfect balls over the top.

I have said from the start of the 4-3-3 experient that 4-3-3 only works if the 2 widemen of the top 3 (Plata and Soolsma las tnight) are runing the channels all the way back to full back to support the defence when we do not have possession. Too often the gap between the midfield 3 and the back 4 is too expansive and we see it time and time again.
Also if you plan on just having a midfield 3 then at least 2 of those must be ball winners. A middle 3 of Frings, Stinson/Dunfield and Silva/Avila works, but take TF out of that and you see what Jack is rightly discussing.

Canary10
04-05-2012, 10:02 AM
"I should clarify, I was referring to the second goal, where the lack of pressure up high allowed Harden to be burned by a perfect ball to Gomez. When quality players have that much time, they're going to play good balls. That was my point. I agree that individual error was the cause of the first and third goals."

Ah, yeah that makes sense.

iy12l
04-05-2012, 10:11 AM
The only problem is that hes slow, other than that hes pretty good for a CB, i think hes the Cb at the moment. He just needs a faster partner with him like Doneil Henry or Emory.

jloome
04-05-2012, 10:11 AM
I wish him the very best in his future endeavors. He needs to play somewhere other than TFC.

I think it's natural for people who want to support a club to also defend their own initial assertions and give him chances.

But he's shit. Absolute shit defender. In every game we've played so far, he's been caught out of position on every third or fourth foray into our end. He makes poor decisions, gives up inside position and isn't fast enough to recover.

Look, at this level, every guy has a reasonable level of technique for the position he's playing. We can usually judge someone's efficacy by their decision-making, and his has been awful since Florida.

He is another Marco Velez, another Nick Garcia, another Giovanni Caicedo. He is not good enough to play at this level.

Unequivocably. Craig Forrest was right. He shouldn't be starting. Given his record up until now, with a major fuckup in pretty much every game he's played (notwithstanding the goal), Doneil Henry or ... God, someone else. As Molinaro put it today, same problem, every year.

MartinUtd
04-05-2012, 10:18 AM
Unequivocably. Craig Forrest was right. He shouldn't be starting. Given his record up until now, with a major fuckup in pretty much every game he's played (notwithstanding the goal), Doneil Henry or ... God, someone else. As Molinaro put it today, same problem, every year.

That's what happens when you play the lottery every year and hope to luck out on a great defender at $80k. You might get a few good games but ultimately you get what you pay for.

Jack
04-05-2012, 10:22 AM
I think it's natural for people who want to support a club to also defend their own initial assertions and give him chances.

But he's shit. Absolute shit defender. In every game we've played so far, he's been caught out of position on every third or fourth foray into our end. He makes poor decisions, gives up inside position and isn't fast enough to recover.

Look, at this level, every guy has a reasonable level of technique for the position he's playing. We can usually judge someone's efficacy by their decision-making, and his has been awful since Florida.

He is another Marco Velez, another Nick Garcia, another Giovanni Caicedo. He is not good enough to play at this level.

Unequivocably. Craig Forrest was right. He shouldn't be starting. Given his record up until now, with a major fuckup in pretty much every game he's played (notwithstanding the goal), Doneil Henry or ... God, someone else. As Molinaro put it today, same problem, every year.
LOL great reaction, but the post to which you responded was referring to JDG, not Aceval.

My hope is, when the JDG debacle ends, that DP slot is turned into a defender of some sort. I like the thought of evenly distributed DPs, with one for the backline, one for the middle and one up front.

Detroit_TFC
04-05-2012, 10:31 AM
+1 MartinUTD. We are going to have to shell out the money to get a known quality CB. We took a gamble with South American defenders in our price range, just didn't work.

jloome
04-05-2012, 10:32 AM
LOL great reaction, but the post to which you responded was referring to JDG, not Aceval.

My hope is, when the JDG debacle ends, that DP slot is turned into a defender of some sort. I like the thought of evenly distributed DPs, with one for the backline, one for the middle and one up front.

Build the spine. Makes sense.

Yohan
04-05-2012, 10:33 AM
Ahem. I've been advocating for a DP CB since season 2 ;)

And it makes so much sense to do so for TFC.

You can build a defence the old MLS way, with more team chemistry and teamwork than talent (see Houston, RSL). Same with San Jose and Kansas City this year. Their back 4 has consistently played pretty much every game last year and this year so far together

Or you can do it with one stud CB who makes others look so good, and this is more of an instant success formula, which TFC needs now

DoubleUp
04-05-2012, 10:35 AM
We should not play henry over emory they are in two differnt classes technically. And if we bring a dp cb he should not be known player(because they are old/slow) he should be somebody younger and extremely good at his position.

Jack
04-05-2012, 10:37 AM
We should not play henry over emory they are in two differnt classes technically. And if we bring a dp cb he should not be known player(because they are old/slow) he should be somebody younger and extremely good at his position.
Find one of those willing to come to MLS. It's a great concept, but tough to make a reality. A competent, young defender is going to be on the shopping list of teams with a lot more prestige than Toronto FC of MLS.

DoubleUp
04-05-2012, 10:38 AM
But the thing is just because somebody has the dp tag doesnt mean they are going to do whats neccessary and thats when it gets disappointing.

Yohan
04-05-2012, 10:42 AM
Find one of those willing to come to MLS. It's a great concept, but tough to make a reality. A competent, young defender is going to be on the shopping list of teams with a lot more prestige than Toronto FC of MLS.

it really depends. there's got to be few of those guys in South America (as much as I don't like focusing solely in SA) that can be lured for good money. even for few years before they jump to Europe

DoubleUp
04-05-2012, 10:43 AM
Find one of those willing to come to MLS. It's a great concept, but tough to make a reality. A competent, young defender is going to be on the shopping list of teams with a lot more prestige than Toronto FC of MLS.


thats true but we have things to offer like first rate education, liveable city for young children....etc etc
even somebody in the 27-30range.

Roogsy
04-05-2012, 10:45 AM
Ah yes, the new scapegoat. Timing seems about right. Sorry Miguel...


Our lack of team defence exposed our CBs.

I didn't want to say it, but there it is. CBs aren't supposed to stop everything. They're the LAST line of defense. Granted, I am biased having been a CB most of my playing days.

Canary10
04-05-2012, 10:46 AM
I think it's a really bad idea to have a DP centre back. He'd be set up for failure.

Jack
04-05-2012, 10:47 AM
thats true but we have things to offer like first rate education, liveable city for young children....etc etc
even somebody in the 27-30range.
So do most cities in Europe. Not to mention, in Latin America, with a good salary, you have all those things on top of a familiar "home" environment.

Canary10
04-05-2012, 10:48 AM
Ah yes, the new scapegoat. Timing seems about right. Sorry Miguel...



I didn't want to say it, but there it is. CBs aren't supposed to stop everything. They're the LAST line of defense. Granted, I am biased having been a CB most of my playing days.

Ha, totally agree with this. So now we want to make the guy who is already the lightning rod for every goal scored, and aim Jedi electrical currents at him by also making him a DP?! I think that's nuts.

DoubleUp
04-05-2012, 10:50 AM
Ah yes, the new scapegoat. Timing seems about right. Sorry Miguel...



I didn't want to say it, but there it is. CBs aren't supposed to stop everything. They're the LAST line of defense. Granted, I am biased having been a CB most of my playing days.

He's not the scapegoat he just not good enough to be our starting cb, off the bench I have no problem with aceval.

Juanito
04-05-2012, 10:52 AM
Guys, keep in mind though, we were facing the NUMBER ONE CLUB IN MÉXICO right now. Also, HÉRCULEZ GÓMEZ is on fire, something like 13 goals in his past 12 matches.

I think we should just be proud of the club for the good run.

ArmenJBX
04-05-2012, 10:56 AM
I think maybe Cann + Emory will be the key for us.

Jack
04-05-2012, 10:57 AM
it really depends. there's got to be few of those guys in South America (as much as I don't like focusing solely in SA) that can be lured for good money. even for few years before they jump to Europe
Possibly. But the whole South America holy grail has been bandied about on our forums for years. This supposed goldmine of inexpensive talent has maybe given us a single nugget for our team. Plata was a great pickup, but other than that, who? Vitti didn't work, Guevara was a known MLS player, Velez crashed and burned and the list goes on. I'd love to see a stud DP CB with tons of experience come in and teach Henry et al the game.

Canary10
04-05-2012, 10:59 AM
^ South America isn't exactly known for quality defenders.

Jack
04-05-2012, 11:02 AM
^ South America isn't exactly known for quality defenders.
It's not like the whole continent is full of bad defenders. Sure, they may not produce as many world-class defenders as Europe, but there are quality defenders coming out of South America.

Canary10
04-05-2012, 11:04 AM
I prefer to impugn an entire continent on their defending abilities.

Yohan
04-05-2012, 11:04 AM
It's not like the whole continent is full of bad defenders. Sure, they may not produce as many world-class defenders as Europe, but there are quality defenders coming out of South America.

I'd give my left nut for a Wilman Conde or a Jamison Olave

Jack
04-05-2012, 11:06 AM
I prefer to impugn an entire continent on their defending abilities.
:rofl:

Abou Sky
04-05-2012, 11:08 AM
If JDG gets bought out does is his salary still count against the cap?

Unfortunately it does:

***
(D) BUYOUT OF GUARANTEED CONTRACT
Teams may have the ability to buyout one guaranteed player as follows:


A Team may buy out one (1) guaranteed player (including a DP’s) contract during the off-season and free up the corresponding budget space. Such a buyout is at the particular MLS Team’s own expense.
A Team may not free up budget space with a buyout of a player’s salary budget charge during the season. Such a buyout will be conducted by the League and count on a Club’s budget in a manner consistent with current MLS guidelines.


****
http://www.mlssoccer.com/2012-mls-roster-rules

Roogsy
04-05-2012, 11:24 AM
Possibly. But the whole South America holy grail has been bandied about on our forums for years. This supposed goldmine of inexpensive talent has maybe given us a single nugget for our team. Plata was a great pickup, but other than that, who? Vitti didn't work, Guevara was a known MLS player, Velez crashed and burned and the list goes on. I'd love to see a stud DP CB with tons of experience come in and teach Henry et al the game.

You only named TWO South American players there amigo. LMAO! :lol:

The fact that our team hasn't uncovered these nuggets of talent in SA is exactly because we haven't looked (except for Mo's infamous "Brazil" trip). 2 years ago, Paul Beirne specifically mentioned TFC were not interested in looking there because of the difficulties. So if we're not looking, how can we blame the lack of opportunities we have not found?

Other teams have had great success, especially from the smaller countries like Bolivia and Uruguay.

Oblio2
04-05-2012, 11:24 AM
I think he is adjusting. I'll give him some time. The one who has run out of time for me is Mr. Julian De Guzman. Aceval gets a pass for some dumb mistakes, JDG gets my disgust for that stupid tackle. Captain my ass.


1000000% agreed.
Stupid tackle
Muppet

mdc 77
04-05-2012, 11:46 AM
How many south Americans have we had on TFC? Plata, Aceval and Vitti...I think thats it. Not counting Caicedo. Plata has worked out fantastic so far, I will give Aceval a bit more time to be fair but so far not so good and Vitti well obviously didn't work out here.

Yohan
04-05-2012, 11:58 AM
How many south Americans have we had on TFC? Plata, Aceval and Vitti...I think thats it. Not counting Caicedo. Plata has worked out fantastic so far, I will give Aceval a bit more time to be fair but so far not so good and Vitti well obviously didn't work out here.
Martin Saric

mdc 77
04-05-2012, 12:22 PM
Martin Saric

haha of course, how could i forget Saric. Is he playing for the prison club in Florida still? I think he may have escaped to the Paraguayan league.

Jack
04-05-2012, 12:32 PM
You only named TWO South American players there amigo. LMAO! :lol:

The fact that our team hasn't uncovered these nuggets of talent in SA is exactly because we haven't looked (except for Mo's infamous "Brazil" trip). 2 years ago, Paul Beirne specifically mentioned TFC were not interested in looking there because of the difficulties. So if we're not looking, how can we blame the lack of opportunities we have not found?

Other teams have had great success, especially from the smaller countries like Bolivia and Uruguay.
Sorry, should have said "Latin America" which would bump the number up a bit.

Nonetheless, if we're not looking, I guess we're not going to find anything.

Yohan
04-05-2012, 12:38 PM
Sorry, should have said "Latin America" which would bump the number up a bit.

Nonetheless, if we're not looking, I guess we're not going to find anything.

not by much. You get Guevara and Carlos Ruiz (shudder) and that's about it

Jack
04-05-2012, 12:40 PM
not by much. You get Guevara and Carlos Ruiz (shudder) and that's about it
And Velez.

Yohan
04-05-2012, 12:49 PM
And Velez.
He was trained in US system, so I don't really count him as Latin American player

Jack
04-05-2012, 12:51 PM
Let's not argue semantics, Yohan.

Yohan
04-05-2012, 12:59 PM
Let's not argue semantics, Yohan.

it may be semantics, but there is a big difference in the style of football that is played between US/Can and Latin America (and Carribean to some extent)

example. David Estrada of Seattle. Would you call him a Mexican player just because he was born in Mexico, or an American player because he learned his football in US?

Jack
04-05-2012, 01:09 PM
What is his nationality?

Yohan
04-05-2012, 01:12 PM
What is his nationality?
puerto rican...

estrada is mexican-american

Jeffro
04-05-2012, 01:12 PM
He's shit! I hope they dragged him home behind the team bus!!


.....wait, who are we talking about this week? ;)

Jack
04-05-2012, 01:13 PM
puerto rican...

estrada is mexican-american

And Puerto Rico is in...? g:D

Phil
04-05-2012, 01:15 PM
The issue going into this season has been the lack of MLS experience for our new players. When you look at Vancouver they picked up a lot of established players with a track record in the league.

This to me is where we have to be patient with a player like Aceval as there are going to be large opportunities for adaption to our style. This situation is also made worse by not having Frings organizing the backline IMO.

The issues with South Americans has nothing to do with the region rather the nature of the contracts (look at Tevez - I know extreme). There is a long line of payouts and claims on players that scares most salary capped clubs away. It's not impossible to do but I think it requires signifigant investment in the area as far as scouting goes. You never really know what TFC are going to do in the future, but I think the long term academy plan is probably the best investment for us.

Yohan
04-05-2012, 01:16 PM
And Puerto Rico is in...? g:D
yeah, but people rope Puerto Rico with Caribbean style of football (whatever that is lol)

Yohan
04-05-2012, 01:22 PM
The issue going into this season has been the lack of MLS experience for our new players. When you look at Vancouver they picked up a lot of established players with a track record in the league.
you sure?

Etienne Barbara, Jun Marques Davidson, Lee Young Pyo, Martin Bonjour, Barry Robson (soon), Matt Watson have zero time in the league. Davidson, Lee, Bonjour are first team players with Watson getting some sub time

Phil
04-05-2012, 01:55 PM
you sure?

Etienne Barbara, Jun Marques Davidson, Lee Young Pyo, Martin Bonjour, Barry Robson (soon), Matt Watson have zero time in the league. Davidson, Lee, Bonjour are first team players with Watson getting some sub time

I was reffering to some of their up front scoring, but I am not very well versed with all their acqusitions and have not had the time to wiki the team to in depth. My apologies if I misspoke.

That was impression after talking with some TFC media and players.

T-boy
04-05-2012, 02:17 PM
Some of you are really crapping on Aceval's head!

I'm guessing the majority of people who are throwing Aceval under the bus haven't ever moved country, changed jobs ever? I'm telling that it takes a good amount of time to immigrate to Canada, especially from a non English speaking country, and learn the culture, net alone learn about your new job, and new city. We HAVE to give Aceval time.

If you want to blame somebody for Aceval's performances, then blame Winter. He chose who to bring to TFC - Winter could have traded for an MLS experienced CB, but he chose to get a non MLS player, and a non North American player to the club.

You also have to remember that Winter also wanted Ceicedo at the club - imagine having TWO "new to the MLS" CB's playing at the same time?!

I want to believe that Winter knows what he's doing at the club right now - but some of his decisions are slightly strange sometimes!

Really, if you want a steady CB at the club, you have to trade to get a semi decent one within the MLS already. I know Iro didn't work out last season, but that's not to say another MLS centre back wouldn't. Winter doesn't need to gamble so much on getting a new MLS player, he needs to find a CB with some MLS experience that can adapt much easier than a South American player.

AlanO
04-05-2012, 05:22 PM
Aceval's only had, what, half a dozen games with TFC? Seems a bit premature to write him off already. He had a howler last night, but he's had some good moments, especially with the ball at his feet. Good at free kicks, too - something the team really needed.

He's not a leader on the back line, but his technical ability could be a good complement to a strong defensive CB.

TFC USA
04-05-2012, 05:24 PM
He's shit because he plays for Toronto FC.

Trade him to Seattle and watch him become a fucking modern day Cannavaro.

Blowing Bubbles
04-05-2012, 06:33 PM
Guys, keep in mind though, we were facing the NUMBER ONE CLUB IN MÉXICO right now. Also, HÉRCULEZ GÓMEZ is on fire, something like 13 goals in his past 12 matches.

I think we should just be proud of the club for the good run.

Herc should be our 3rd DP when JDG finally GTFO after his deal expires! Well maybe not, he's struggled in MLS before, but man, he looks so good now.

MLSE should've went to the wall for this team and bought out JDG so we could've used his DP spot ..... then again it's not my money so it's easy to say.

An upgrade at CB is a must. A beast would be nice - but even getting someone solid would be a huge help.

A guy like Carlos Bocanegra would be a huge improvement imo. Prob available this summer from Rangers too, shouldn't have any issues coming to MLS.

jloome
04-05-2012, 06:45 PM
He's shit because he plays for Toronto FC.

Trade him to Seattle and watch him become a fucking modern day Cannavaro.

he's shit because he can't read the game. And as for the suggestion above that we blame Winter for hiring him, I rather imagine Mariner found him. But mostly, when a player plays really badly for a half dozen straight games, I think it's best to blame the player.

ag futbol
04-05-2012, 07:20 PM
he's shit because he can't read the game. And as for the suggestion above that we blame Winter for hiring him, I rather imagine Mariner found him. But mostly, when a player plays really badly for a half dozen straight games, I think it's best to blame the player.
There's a pretty strong chance that MLS head-office found him and then TFC or whoever were given first crack after doing their own diligence. There's a lot more central scouting that goes on in this league then they'd like to admit.

I just want to know why we can't end up with our own john kennedy hurtado or whatever... We really seem to strike out when it comes to finding dominant defenders.

BeerBaron95
04-05-2012, 08:13 PM
WTF are some of you even writing??

I may come across as bias since i am of chilean blood and watched him play for years but here goes

He had bad game that cost the team 2 goals... I will admit that, got beat hands down on the first and made an error on the next one..... but TFC was playing, as Juan mentioned the top team in the Mexican league at home... a team that pumped a far superior seattle team 6-1 not 2 weeks ago

How soon ppl forget that he scored the goal a week ago to even have given TFC a chance, albeit a slim one at very best to even attempt to move on to the CCL finals to begin with

TFC went into that game +11.50 underdog to Santos... yeah u saw that correctly

I always laugh at the so called 'experts' on this forum that throw guys under the bus cause of a bad game and pick them apart in such 'detail'..... Lets not forget that Harden shit the bed on the tying goal right at half time and JDG, everyones favorite Canadian ( i say that cause tooooo many ppl on this forum have let him slide for 3 years now simply because of his nationality) single handedly nullified any chance of the team even getting back into the game with his stupid tackle in the box

I can count on 1 hand how many games along with other posters on this forum have said JDG was the best player on the pitch or was an animal out there or the ever popular: he definitely earned his salary/contract with this game... less than 5 games in 3 seasons is pretty pathetic for DP status as many can agree to. Yet game after game he was given a pass by most because he's one of our own... hmmm

there is already talk of Aceval being crap, not being able to read the game etc etc and it is a joke... Again im prolly coming across as bias but the truth is i will be the first to lay in on a players performance if its worth calling out..... just not after a handful of games lol..... I wont use the reason of him adjusting to N.A, the city and all that garbage... the man is a footballer, he will do exactly what he is payed for and was brought in to do.... if he scores 10 goals this season will ppl still say hes crap cause of the odd mistake from time to time? if thats the case then why havent players like JDG or Harden been dragged through the streets/coals with 'supporters' holding pitchforks and torches by now?

Harden should not start period... Without Frings the defence is soft and vulnerable, but even with Frings on the pitch this season the D has always been stretched and caught trying the offside trap.... Emory should start up the middle alongside Aceval and the 2 can create a chemistry together that will only make our CB's stronger

Juan and Roogsy made the only 2 intelligent posts in this entire thread

.............

brad
04-05-2012, 08:25 PM
We should not play henry over emory they are in two differnt classes technically. And if we bring a dp cb he should not be known player(because they are old/slow) he should be somebody younger and extremely good at his position.

Ideally, yes. But Frings is showing exactly what an older, slower DP can bring to the table if you get the right guy.

hodgkiss
04-05-2012, 08:54 PM
with the current squad and injuries, i would like to see something like this:

-----------------kocic-------------------
----------henry---------maund---------
eckersley-----------------------morgan
-----------------stinson-----------------
--------avilla-------------silva----------
soolsma-------------------------johnson
----------------kovermans--------------

subs: plata on 60 for kovermans. johnson moves to front. plata on left wing.
maybe burgos in for soolsma at 70 mins.
cordon in for stinson on 60 minutes.

as cann becomes healthier, he would replace maund - but i still thin tfc should make a pitch for attakora.
he is one of the best players i have seen in a red shirt as a cb! never understood why winter never rated him!
after watching him again for the u23 team, it was very apparent that he was solid back there and the team was better with him in the roster!
he would be a steal at the money he would be asking for!

absolutely no dunfield, no deguzman, no harden and no aceval!

on paper, i feel this line up would be solid and p;ayers that are very responsible and play their position with confidence

T-boy
04-05-2012, 09:49 PM
he's shit because he can't read the game. And as for the suggestion above that we blame Winter for hiring him, I rather imagine Mariner found him. But mostly, when a player plays really badly for a half dozen straight games, I think it's best to blame the player.

Are you suggesting/saying that Winter is picking a team from a squad of players that he (potentially) doesn't have any say over?

If this is the case, no wonder TFC are playing so badly!

I personally don't believe that - I would have thought Winter was the overall influence of the types of signings we make. Mariner is the numbers guy who puts together the contract and helps with the salary cap etc. I have no doubt that Winter would have vetted Aceval before we signed him tho.

los sonadores
04-05-2012, 10:04 PM
I'm not getting why Aceval hasn't been better. He played, like what, almost 200 games for Colo-Colo?, played in Uruguay for Defensor Sporting, has a cap for Chile (vs Mexico). He did score a nice goal, is great on dead balls and in quite a few moments has looked good, promising. Do we have time to wait for him to adjust? Is that what it is, that he needs time?

To those who have seen him play in Chile - is he known to have these seriously lapsed moments?

los sonadores
04-05-2012, 10:09 PM
His first mistake that lead to a goal (and there were three of them) the one where Gomez got in behind him, seemed less not reading the game than just not paying attention. How is that possible in a game of this importance?

Oldtimer
04-05-2012, 10:27 PM
Winter couldn't trade in MLS to get a CB, given that there is a shortage of good CBs in the league, and besides who would he trade? It's not like someone was going to take JDG's enormous contract off our hands. He had to bring in a foreign "budget" player.

It will be telling what they do with the DP slot once Julian's time here is up.

Inklink
04-05-2012, 10:29 PM
Six years in, you'd think the backend would've been figured out by this time.

DoubleUp
04-05-2012, 10:33 PM
Ideally, yes. But Frings is showing exactly what an older, slower DP can bring to the table if you get the right guy.


In the backline! not the more demanding midfield.
:rolleyes:

spe18
04-05-2012, 10:40 PM
Six years in, you'd think the backend would've been figured out by this time.

Yes, six years in, BUT, only the second year under this administration :)

los sonadores
04-05-2012, 10:56 PM
Aceval doesn't look in great shape to me - is he coming off an injury? Mediocre fitness tends to lead to mistakes.

los sonadores
04-05-2012, 11:13 PM
He looks pretty good here - maybe better at LB? With TFC, he's looked more comfortable being pushed further left along side Frings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p--8zXwZ20c&feature=related

RC8
04-05-2012, 11:49 PM
I grew up watching him play for Colo-Colo. He's a decent defender. Much much better than your average MLS defender.

He was at fault for Santos' first goal, but that's it.

He's always been a pretty offensive-minded player, whenever he went up someone else would take his place. Typical S. American defending, really. Here in this system he is given a responsibility with which he can't really show off what he's good at.

I think with Frings by his side he'll be a very competent player for TFC. Without, not so much. The football in this league and in our team in particular aren't yet suited for players like Aceval whose performances rely on a well-oiled team.

I've seen A LOT of this guy and grew to really like him for his attitude many years ago. People who say he 'is not good enough for TFC' have no idea what football is like out there. Watching Colo-Colo at the stadium feels like watching Barcelona/Arsenal on steroids compared to what watching TFC feels like.

There's barely a 'not good enough for TFC' category in my books based on what I've seen at BMO. Whether a player is a good fit to our system is a completely different matter. We have bigger worries than Aceval as far as I'm concerned.

tfc007
04-06-2012, 07:32 AM
Yes Assaval mad a couple of horrible mistakes,but I am not ready to give up on him.Now in Ty and Julie,they are gone in my books!This stems from not just this year but last year and the year prior to that!

tfc007
04-06-2012, 07:36 AM
Agreed,except with frings playing in defence,should be in the middle controlling the middle!He plays defence here because we have no one! waisting his talents on defence! This my opinion!

brad
04-06-2012, 09:27 AM
In the backline! not the more demanding midfield.
:rolleyes:

Right - but I thought we were talking about a DP CB :)

brad
04-06-2012, 09:29 AM
Aceval doesn't look in great shape to me - is he coming off an injury? Mediocre fitness tends to lead to mistakes.

Yes, he was injured for a fair amount of last year.

As far as brain farts in Mexico, it could be some combination of lack of fitness, travel fatigue or altitude.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-06-2012, 09:41 AM
not altitude, its about the same altitude as here (or not much more if im not mistaken)

jloome
04-06-2012, 09:43 AM
Are you suggesting/saying that Winter is picking a team from a squad of players that he (potentially) doesn't have any say over?

If this is the case, no wonder TFC are playing so badly!

I personally don't believe that - I would have thought Winter was the overall influence of the types of signings we make. Mariner is the numbers guy who puts together the contract and helps with the salary cap etc. I have no doubt that Winter would have vetted Aceval before we signed him tho.

Actually, no, I'm not suggesting that. This is the very definition of makijng a "straw man" argument -- attributing a proposal to the other party, then knocking it down.

Obviously Winter deserves blame for playing him too, or listening to the folk telling him to give him time. Doesn't change why I'm assessing him as being a bad player...which is because he plays badly. Repeatedly.

You can either read a fast, direct game or you can't. He's coming from a different style of football, just like Caicedo, and he can't read the game at this speed. Is there time for a guy his age to adjust? I doubt it.

dow117
04-06-2012, 10:00 AM
Aceval made a couple mistakes vs. Santos but Morgan was awful... his athleticism helped to cover up his terrible positioning and his constant backing up in the box putting pressure on everyone. We need a left back and maybe thats Aceval ( smarter player ).

brad
04-06-2012, 10:09 AM
not altitude, its about the same altitude as here (or not much more if im not mistaken)

We are 347M, Torreon is 1000M. Don't know if that is enough to make a difference though.

Jack
04-06-2012, 10:12 AM
not altitude, its about the same altitude as here (or not much more if im not mistaken)
Torreon altitude is over 1000m
Toronto altitude is about 250m

DoubleUp
04-06-2012, 10:17 AM
Right - but I thought we were talking about a DP CB :)


as Cb in the 3man yes as midfielder in every sense of the word has looked past it. Despite the myth, he plays in the back because he has to run less and he can read the game better/control our tempo with two athletic backs alongside him its his best position at this stage in his career.

Blizzard
04-06-2012, 10:19 AM
Something that needs to be said is that he has been a MF all his career and has only been shifted to CB in the past year or two. His on the ball quality/distribution is good. His CB instincts are lacking. He could also be fitter truth be told.

I'm wondering why Mariner brought in a converted MF to be our stud CB?

DoubleUp
04-06-2012, 10:23 AM
Aceval made a couple mistakes vs. Santos but Morgan was awful... his athleticism helped to cover up his terrible positioning and his constant backing up in the box putting pressure on everyone. We need a left back and maybe thats Aceval ( smarter player ).



I am not saying you're wrong, but imo morgan hasnt put a foot wrong/shit the bed yet and attackers dont pass him, his decision making especially in the final 3rd is questionable at times.But in this league I dont think he loses his spot to aceval........just to fast.

DoubleUp
04-06-2012, 10:33 AM
Something that needs to be said is that he has been a MF all his career and has only been shifted to CB in the past year or two. His on the ball quality/distribution is good. His CB instincts are lacking. He could also be fitter truth be told.

I'm wondering why Mariner brought in a converted MF to be our stud CB?


Honestly theres no shame in it if we accommodate him properly, mascherano made the same switch and its working for him. Imo its easier/cheaper to bring in a better right sided back(maybe if soumare drops in our lap) and stick beside frings, then to find dp/stud Cb and pay near millions to shit the bed and have us string him up by his boots. In the 3man footy iq wise frings is the best cb in the league, just athleticism lets him down at times.

Jack
04-06-2012, 10:37 AM
Honestly theres no shame in it if we accommodate him properly, mascherano made the same switch and its working for him. Imo its easier/cheaper to bring in a better right sided back(maybe if soumare drops in our lap) and stick beside frings, then to find dp/stud Cb and pay near millions to shit the bed and have us string him up by his boots. In the 3man footy iq wise frings is the best cb in the league, just athleticism lets him down at times.

This could actually be a very good solution. Keeping Frings back there where's he's proven to do a good job and then using the JDG slot on a more attacking player. I think it's safe to say we can find a better bargain at defensive mid than JDG.

DoubleUp
04-06-2012, 10:42 AM
This could actually be a very good solution. Keeping Frings back there where's he's proven to do a good job and then using the JDG slot on a more attacking player. I think it's safe to say we can find a better bargain at defensive mid than JDG.

In honesty I've watched every match since fringes arrived, and in the midfield he has looked ordinary but in the 3man he comes to life he looks like what we payed money for. IN JDG spot we need a destroy/engine, with a tchani/ sanyang build but much better of ofcourse.

boysblue
04-06-2012, 11:19 AM
early impression on aceval is not a real positive. seems to lack pace and he is not strong defensively.

iy12l
04-06-2012, 11:25 AM
Hes a good defender but hes just slow. If you want a temporary solution play Henry over Harden to cover up if Aceval makes a mistake

Pookie
04-06-2012, 11:29 AM
I see the search for the next whipping boy is well underway.

I guess the hand ball (while falling) outweighs the goal in the 1st leg? 4 Chilean League Premier Division titles under his belt and a cap with the 14th ranked football country in the world and some have their minds already made up on him?

Not saying the guy is a monster but come on folks, he's in the MLS which means that he has both upside and drawbacks. This basically describes every player we have on the roster. Let's not rush to run another one out of town.

iy12l
04-06-2012, 11:31 AM
There should be more hate on JDG than Aceval, atleast he has good technical skills, decent at defending as well, and a good free kick taker

DoubleUp
04-06-2012, 11:43 AM
There should be more hate on JDG than Aceval, atleast he has good technical skills, decent at defending as well, and a good free kick taker

There should be no hate, just truth seeking to get us a winning team.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-06-2012, 12:40 PM
We are 347M, Torreon is 1000M. Don't know if that is enough to make a difference though.


Torreon altitude is over 1000m
Toronto altitude is about 250m

i stand corrected.
Like brad said itd be interesting to see if that makes a difference.
also our defense was shit on its own in that second half.

brad
04-06-2012, 01:21 PM
i stand corrected.
Like brad said itd be interesting to see if that makes a difference.
also our defense was shit on its own in that second half.

I believe Seattle followed the same path against them away. Decent at the start and a collapse around the end.

BayernTFC
04-06-2012, 03:08 PM
I appreciate RC8's post.

Santos Laguna is a quality team. They probed Eckersley, Harden, Aceval and Morgan for weaknesses. They took advantage of TFC's lapses in concentration and mistakes. Over time, Santos Laguna forced TFC to commit errors and broke them down. That's what good teams do. Every defender TFC has ever used has made mistakes. It seems a bit harsh to be calling for Aceval to be thrown overboard based on a few initial performances against the toughest competition TFC has faced. Has Miguel Aceval been perfect for TFC in his few starts with his new team? No. DP Rafa Marquez hasn't been perfect for the RBNY either. Richard Eckersley had poor games for TFC too last year.

BeerBaron95
04-06-2012, 08:49 PM
I see the search for the next whipping boy is well underway.

I guess the hand ball (while falling) outweighs the goal in the 1st leg? 4 Chilean League Premier Division titles under his belt and a cap with the 14th ranked football country in the world and some have their minds already made up on him?

Not saying the guy is a monster but come on folks, he's in the MLS which means that he has both upside and drawbacks. This basically describes every player we have on the roster. Let's not rush to run another one out of town.

Another intelligent post.... no sarcasm man... im being serious... its exactly what im trying to say in a more concise manner

Roogsy
04-06-2012, 10:40 PM
I see the search for the next whipping boy is well underway.

I guess the hand ball (while falling) outweighs the goal in the 1st leg? 4 Chilean League Premier Division titles under his belt and a cap with the 14th ranked football country in the world and some have their minds already made up on him?

Not saying the guy is a monster but come on folks, he's in the MLS which means that he has both upside and drawbacks. This basically describes every player we have on the roster. Let's not rush to run another one out of town.

I don't often agree with you but I wholeheartedly do here.