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MartinUtd
03-31-2012, 03:01 PM
While the team looks better at playing the "possession game" none of that seems to matter when we collectively have no finish in the final third.

TFC07
03-31-2012, 03:05 PM
Shit game, shit atmosphere. I get the feeling once we out of CONCACAF then we will start playing well in MLS.

For the love of god, stop starting Dunfield and Harden every game.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 03:05 PM
We can blame the defence all we want, but in the end of the day, we've scored 1 goal in MLS, conceded 7, are 0/3, with 0 points, sitting in the bottom of the league table, unsuccessful at home, and off to Mexico with an away goal against us and a reality check just around the corner.

This may just be the make-or-break stretch for Aron Winter. The CCL is awesome, but in the end of the day, what does it say if a team makes the finals of the CCL and are dead-last in their local league. Is there any pride in winning a tournament while being in last place?

We're not scoring. Plata's first touch is ruining plays, Koevermans isn't finishing, and Richard Eckersley was totally out of position (as usual) on that goal from the right hand side. De Guzman made his mistakes, Ty Harden conceded (another) penalty and Kocic makes a big save, the only TFC highlight of the night.

BUSINESS AS USUAL. :picard:

RedsYNWA
03-31-2012, 03:06 PM
Great game the lads pulled it together, tough goal given up but a result and a home 3 points none the less....



.....wait this is not the QPR thread

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 03:07 PM
The only positive that came out of this game is Logan Emory, who proved he can play - put him beside Aceval, and let um work the centre of defence; I'm sure Emory must have picked up some Spanish during his time at Puerto Rico Islanders.

DoubleUp
03-31-2012, 03:08 PM
Well Well once again. Emory did shit the bed but overall he played well. Our real problem is the stale attack and not being able to put the ball in the back of the net like I said before we need somebody that can constantly get in the attacking areas, Plata,soolsma and lembe are not sure mls starters.

Posted this in the/ In-game thread

mowe
03-31-2012, 03:09 PM
Plata had a terrible game. I can't wait until Stinson comes back so he can push Dunfield to the bench. Good to see TFC controlling the game but the better team is the one with the most goals.

Horrible start to the season, TFC is badly going to need some road wins. Hopefully these guys are up to give a full effort in Mexico.

DangerRed
03-31-2012, 03:10 PM
LOL...

So, to all the cheerleaders, which excuse are you guys going with today?

I'm betting it'll be "oh this is fine, we're focused on Santos right now, who cares about the league?" Or, "we were tired from Santos, which we just played on Wednesday?"

Hahaha. I wish I had the optimism you guys do. Out of curiosity, anyone know when we last started a season with three straight losses?

Relja
03-31-2012, 03:10 PM
We need to stop this constant crossing, when our crosses are lacking and our finishing is nonexistant. Koevermans needs to shape up otherwise I see a significant pay raise for Johnson who has been giving it his all this season and heck since he's been here. We need to work on our through passes and the defense needs to wake up. As for Emory he played well for a youngster, but everybody makes mistakes and after a bit of a talking to, we need to get past that.

MartinUtd
03-31-2012, 03:11 PM
It's also worth noting that Plata shouldn't be starting. He can be a very effective late game substitute but so far this season I've seen better things from Lambe in our own half and little else going forward. With Soolsma and Johnson having having promising starts to the year I just don't see the merit in starting Plata considering our other options.

Island Man
03-31-2012, 03:12 PM
Don't know kept trying to cross the ball in when that clearly wasn't working. We had good chances when we played through the middle.

Davenport
03-31-2012, 03:13 PM
No-one remember Du Guzman losing the ball under no pressure that led to the goal ?
Harden and Emory then gave Columbus half the pitch to run at them.....and then a missed tackle.......1-0.
One win in 6 games.

Island Man
03-31-2012, 03:14 PM
No-one remember Du Guzman losing the ball under no pressure that led to the goal

Was a poor pass to him in the 1st place.

iy12l
03-31-2012, 03:14 PM
What we learned today

Emory > Harden
Avila/Silva > Dumbfield

And that crosses aren't the best ways to create goal scoring chances, through-balls are

LesH
03-31-2012, 03:16 PM
Some conclusions after the game:

1. We are the doormats of the MLS.
Again.
The 6th season in row.

0-3 / 1-7 goal differential

2. If we'll lose any more than 4 total points at home in all remaining games, will be almost impossible to make the playoffs.
You heard this from me first time. You can rub this affirmation later in my face if I'm wrong somehow...

3. The technical staff of TFC looks like total idiots after this game:
We played almost all the starting 11 which will start in Mexico (this gives almost no chance even for a decent performance there), yet we still shit the bed badly.

4. Plata and Danny K are total busts so far this year.
I hope that at least they will play soon enough close to the potential they showed us last year.

5. Sorry for Frei's injury, but right now, if he's continuing to play like he's done this year, Milos should be clearly our first choice keeper, even after Frei will be fully fit after his injury.

Island Man
03-31-2012, 03:16 PM
Avila/Silva > Dunfield

Well if we are attacking then yes. Dunfield is much better at defending, and if we want to keep a lead.

adam1001
03-31-2012, 03:18 PM
I don't care if people defend dunfield by saying he works his ass off, his hustle does not compensate for the lack of skill. I also never understood the plata love fest. Players seem to "figure him out" as soon as he gets onto the pitch.

DangerRed
03-31-2012, 03:20 PM
What we learned today

Emory > Harden
Avila/Silva > Dumbfield

And that crosses aren't the best ways to create goal scoring chances, through-balls are

How dare you assail the footballing abilities of our midfield and back line?!?! You will surely anger Yohan (see his "Sticking up for Dunfield and Harden thread"), who believes these to be stellar exemplars of MLS quality! Harden, in fact, "has been improving remarkably!" Haha.

MartinUtd
03-31-2012, 03:21 PM
No-one remember Du Guzman losing the ball under no pressure that led to the goal ?
Harden and Emory then gave Columbus half the pitch to run at them.....and then a missed tackle.......1-0.
One win in 6 games.

Oh I remember it alright, it accompanied a dramatic face palm before Emory even had a chance to complete stage two of that colossal fuck up.

Oldtimer
03-31-2012, 03:25 PM
People here are forgetting that TFC is without Frings.
I think with Frings, we would have been 2-1.

One thing to judge this teams leaders are on who they are bringing in. Without better defenders, a quality rebuild has not been done.

iy12l
03-31-2012, 03:26 PM
Anyone who sticks up for Duncefield or Harden pretty much enjoy losing

Oldtimer
03-31-2012, 03:27 PM
LOL...

So, to all the cheerleaders, which excuse are you guys going with today?


You can actually make your points about the team without attacking other people. Try it, it actually can be a good experience.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 03:28 PM
Here's where I don't buy the Emory blame.

When you have your partner in the back line running frantically back and not marking one or the other, and your "best" defender, Eckersley, up in no mans land, and your CAPTAIN, de Guzman, making a huge mistake and then lazily strolling backwards, you have no other choice other than to follow the flow of the rest of your team. If that flow is wrong, Emory can't be in the right position - if he was, he'd be in the wrong position, because the rest of the team ruined the rest of the shape.

If anyone is to blame for that mistake, it wasn't Emory, it was Eckersley, but can Eckersley be blamed for being too far forward, when we had possession? Nope.

De Guzman, losing the ball with little pressure, killed Toronto FC. As per the usual, de Guzman likes to give the appearance of competency without actually substantiating it.

DangerRed
03-31-2012, 03:29 PM
You can actually make your points about the team without attacking other people. Try it, it actually can be a good experience.

OT, you've been here for long enough to know that I've tried time and again to make my points without attacking anyone, only to be personally attacked every time as a faithless, fairweather fan. This time I played it a little pre-emptive, and for that I apologize. But the thrust of my point still stands as valid.

dantdot
03-31-2012, 03:30 PM
Besides the colossal brain fart, Emory played well. Try him with Aceval, please.

We played with a lineup to win today, now we have less of a chance in Mexico, if it ever was more than a long shot.

DangerRed
03-31-2012, 03:31 PM
De Guzman, losing the ball with little pressure, killed Toronto FC. As per the usual, de Guzman likes to give the appearance of competency without actually substantiating it.

Well put. I'd note, however, that that statement is just one box on a lengthy checklist of the problems with the team at present.

MartinUtd
03-31-2012, 03:32 PM
People here are forgetting that TFC is without Frings.
I think with Frings, we would have been 2-1.

One thing to judge this teams leaders are on who they are bringing in. Without better defenders, a quality rebuild has not been done.

I still cannot figure out what Winter was thinking in the off season regarding our back line. Maybe he did go for a few big names for a league max type salary and nothing materialized, but until I hear that it comes back to "Did he think we had the right pieces in place?" Maybe Cann was expected back sooner or Caicedo looked THAT much better when being scouted. None of it adds up because all we've signed are more depth players.

ag futbol
03-31-2012, 03:32 PM
I don't see the need to pick out anybody individually, except for Kocic who did a nice job stopping the penalty.

Otherwise, all I saw was a bunch of guys who tried pretty hard but still have their limits. For a team that is supposed to score goals in this system ... we lack talent

Jack
03-31-2012, 03:34 PM
Anyone who sticks up for Duncefield or Harden pretty much enjoy losing
Very astute. In depth analysis at its finest.

MartinUtd
03-31-2012, 03:34 PM
Here's where I don't buy the Emory blame.

When you have your partner in the back line running frantically back and not marking one or the other, and your "best" defender, Eckersley, up in no mans land, and your CAPTAIN, de Guzman, making a huge mistake and then lazily strolling backwards, you have no other choice other than to follow the flow of the rest of your team. If that flow is wrong, Emory can't be in the right position - if he was, he'd be in the wrong position, because the rest of the team ruined the rest of the shape.

I think he was trying to get back as fast as he could, but he's just slow. I've never seen JDG move fast other than that initial burst of speed from a stand still.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 03:37 PM
Well put. I'd note, however, that that statement is just one box on a lengthy checklist of the problems with the team at present.

The Checklist

1. Can Toronto FC's Defence defend properly? No.

2. Can Toronto FC's Midfield maintain possession? No.

3. Can Toronto FC's forwards score goals? No.

4. Can Toronto FC play a 4-3-3 style, with possession and on-the-ground passing play? No.

5. Can Toronto FC put 11 competent players on the field at any given time? No.

6. Can Toronto FC see out games without conceding late? No.

7. Can Toronto FC count on their designated players to defend, maintain possession or score? No.

8. Can Toronto FC make use of a full squad of players with proper depth and smart substitutions? No.

9. Can Toronto FC say they are a top MLS side? No.

10. Can you hear Toronto sing? I don't hear a f***ing thing.

MFG1
03-31-2012, 03:38 PM
This team has never had any finish in the front, do they not practice passes into the middle? They dont seem to have much trouble getting it to the final third of the pitch, and then they hail mary everything 80% of the time. The sixth season of horrible corner kicks, No finish, no support.

iy12l
03-31-2012, 03:39 PM
Very astute. In depth analysis at its finest.

Give me one good reason why those idiots are playing over Emory/Avila/Silva??

Island Man
03-31-2012, 03:42 PM
Give me one good reason why those idiots are playing over Emory/Avila/Silva??

Harden hasn't played over Harden yet. Silva is a rookie and Avila hasn't set the MLS alight. Dunfield has been solid and done his job well.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 03:43 PM
Dunfield is not the problem, but Ty Harden is simply not good enough.

Can you believe he has more playing time than literally every single other player while under Aron Winter? Take that in for a second :/

Beach_Red
03-31-2012, 03:44 PM
People here are forgetting that TFC is without Frings.
I think with Frings, we would have been 2-1.

One thing to judge this teams leaders are on who they are bringing in. Without better defenders, a quality rebuild has not been done.

That makes it tough to be very optimistic - sure Frings (as long as he's not injured, and who exact6ly brought him in?) but otherwise the team's record for bringing in players doesn't look very good next to almost every other team in the league.

LesH
03-31-2012, 03:45 PM
Give me one good reason why those idiots are playing over Emory/Avila/Silva??

Why the fuck are you calling them idiots?
They simply do not have the needed quality to be MLS starters, but in terms of work ethic we can't ask any more than what they offer.
So is not their fault that more often than not, they are the weak links on the field.

Eastend
03-31-2012, 03:45 PM
Coming here and reading this board after a game is more frustrating then actually watching our team play.

I saw better possesion from the guys. We deserved a point from this but 1 collective defensive mistake cost us.

Dom

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 03:46 PM
That makes it tough to be very optimistic - sure Frings (as long as he's not injured, and who exact6ly brought him in?) but otherwise the team's record for bringing in players doesn't look very good next to almost every other team in the league.

It's very obvious that, beyond Ryan Johnson, Aron Winter and co. have little to no knowledge or confidence in players across this league. We haven't traded for a solid player at all.

iy12l
03-31-2012, 03:48 PM
Harden hasn't played over Harden yet. Silva is a rookie and Avila hasn't set the MLS alight. Dunfield has been solid and done his job well.

Especially when he made so much back passes

Ossington Mental Youth
03-31-2012, 03:49 PM
The Checklist

1. Can Toronto FC's Defence defend properly? No.

2. Can Toronto FC's Midfield maintain possession? No.

3. Can Toronto FC's forwards score goals? No.

4. Can Toronto FC play a 4-3-3 style, with possession and on-the-ground passing play? No.

5. Can Toronto FC put 11 competent players on the field at any given time? No.

6. Can Toronto FC see out games without conceding late? No.

7. Can Toronto FC count on their designated players to defend, maintain possession or score? No.

8. Can Toronto FC make use of a full squad of players with proper depth and smart substitutions? No.

9. Can Toronto FC say they are a top MLS side? No.

10. Can you hear Toronto sing? I don't hear a f***ing thing.

you dont feel your being a bit dramatic here?

DangerRed
03-31-2012, 03:50 PM
It's very obvious that, beyond Ryan Johnson, Aron Winter and co. have little to no knowledge or confidence in players across this league. We haven't traded for a solid player at all.

I was about to add a few key points about management to your checklist, but I think your comment fills it out nicely. This is what you get when a manager and his right-hand man have very little conception as to what it takes to compete and win in this league. Remember Koov isn't here because he's amazing. He's here because he knows Winter. Even Frings, who I like as a defender I still find to be WAY over the hill for chasing the ball with some 20-yr old cornfed from Ohio, is here because he knows Klinsmann. Not because he's objectively good. Who has this management team brought on who has CONSISTENTLY outperformed and delivered? If you say Plata, you're not watching closely enough. The answer is NO ONE. And to those who say we had an amazing second half of last year after the DPs arrived, where is that quality now?

Ossington Mental Youth
03-31-2012, 03:50 PM
Coming here and reading this board after a game is more frustrating then actually watching our team play.

I saw better possesion from the guys. We deserved a point from this but 1 collective defensive mistake cost us.

Dom

cosign.

Island Man
03-31-2012, 03:56 PM
Avila and Cann both starting for the reserves.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 03:57 PM
you dont feel your being a bit dramatic here?

Which one am I wrong on though? :D
That's the problem - in my satire, I'm still technically right.

iy12l
03-31-2012, 04:00 PM
Avila and Cann both starting for the reserves.

Is there a stream for it cause i got nothing to do

Island Man
03-31-2012, 04:05 PM
Is there a stream for it cause i got nothing to do

Nope, just going by Twitter.

kingkenny07
03-31-2012, 04:06 PM
Here's where I don't buy the Emory blame.

When you have your partner in the back line running frantically back and not marking one or the other, and your "best" defender, Eckersley, up in no mans land, and your CAPTAIN, de Guzman, making a huge mistake and then lazily strolling backwards, you have no other choice other than to follow the flow of the rest of your team. If that flow is wrong, Emory can't be in the right position - if he was, he'd be in the wrong position, because the rest of the team ruined the rest of the shape.

If anyone is to blame for that mistake, it wasn't Emory, it was Eckersley, but can Eckersley be blamed for being too far forward, when we had possession? Nope.

De Guzman, losing the ball with little pressure, killed Toronto FC. As per the usual, de Guzman likes to give the appearance of competency without actually substantiating it.

Dont mean to be offensive Armen, but you dont know what youre talking about.

The goal was clearly emorys fault, he had the chance to clear the ball and messed up big time. De Guzman also has to take blame for losing the ball in the middle of the park. How you can lay any blame on Eckersley is astonishing. He was palyed as a wing back and was in a perfect position to receive the ball had De Guzman not lost posession.

Would you rather Eckersley sit on the edge of our box all game long in case we lose the ball.

ensco
03-31-2012, 04:13 PM
It was a beautiful afternoon. Couldn't ask for a nicer early season day.

We are catching every break in CCL, and can't buy one in MLS. Weird.

We don't appear to scout opposition. Columbus play a flat back 4, have height at the back, and an MLS MVP CB. High, long crosses into the box are not going to work.

We may suck this year, I'm not sure yet. We don't look as bad as we did last year.

T-boy
03-31-2012, 04:14 PM
Give me one good reason why those idiots are playing over Emory/Avila/Silva??

Sorry, but I thought Emory was out best player today, by a MILE! I'm not sure what game you were watching? He was dominant in the air, comfy with the ball at his feet - he looks an excellent young CB.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 04:15 PM
Dont mean to be offensive Armen, but you dont know what youre talking about.

The goal was clearly emorys fault, he had the chance to clear the ball and messed up big time. De Guzman also has to take blame for losing the ball in the middle of the park. How you can lay any blame on Eckersley is astonishing. He was palyed as a wing back and was in a perfect position to receive the ball had De Guzman not lost posession.

Would you rather Eckersley sit on the edge of our box all game long in case we lose the ball.

Football analysts often put blame based on a line known as the "Point of no return" when a player goes from making rational decisions into emergency ones. Emory was in the red zone when he had to clear the ball, and yes, he did not clear it at all. At the same time, the events leading up to this should never have happened at all.

Defenders know not to spend too much time in this frame of defending. In any case, Emory more than made up for this mistake as the game went on but the problem comes when the rest of the defence doesn't properly manage the remaining players. In Harden's case, he should have chosen a man and stuck with him instead of trying to mark both, in effect, making himself useless. De Guzman shouldn't foolishly give away possession like that. Emory shouldn't take the brunt of the blame for a clearance he should never have had to have made in the first place, and yes, I'd much rather Eckersley play WITH our defenders than with our midfielders/forwards.

A Right fullback attacks on a counter - Eckersley spends more time away from the defence than with them, and to what end? We didn't score from an Eckersley run, did we? No. In fact, the only thing that happened was Columbus capitalized on our open right hand side and put the rest of TFC's defence into emergency defending mode.

So, yes, I would rather have Eckersley remain back until needed.

ensco
03-31-2012, 04:17 PM
How you can lay any blame on Eckersley is astonishing. He was palyed as a wing back and was in a perfect position to receive the ball had De Guzman not lost posession.

I don't know whose "fault" it is, but Ecks and Plata are not working well together at all, and when Plata went to the right side in the second half, the problem was obvious. When the FB pushes up, the wing must cover, but Plata never does. Is it because Ecks is reckless, and is too unaware of what Plata is doing, or because Plata is an offense-only converted striker who can't figure out his responsibilities? It's one or the other.

T-boy
03-31-2012, 04:18 PM
Coming here and reading this board after a game is more frustrating then actually watching our team play.

I saw better possesion from the guys. We deserved a point from this but 1 collective defensive mistake cost us.

Dom

I don't agree about the one mistake costing us today. TFC didn't look like scoring if they played for 24 hours straight today. I honestly don't know what Winter has been working on all off season - the offense was totally toothless.

and WHY is Plata meant to be playing on the wing, and yet stood mostly all game on the shoulder of their right CB. He needs to hug the touchline, that is where he is most effective, and then cut inside to the penalty area. He's totally WASTED holding hands with their number 15, who was at least a foot taller than he was!

You don't win games if you can't score. We can't blame one mistake on losing today - we never EVER looked like scoring!

MartinUtd
03-31-2012, 04:18 PM
I was about to add a few key points about management to your checklist, but I think your comment fills it out nicely. This is what you get when a manager and his right-hand man have very little conception as to what it takes to compete and win in this league. Remember Koov isn't here because he's amazing. He's here because he knows Winter. Even Frings, who I like as a defender I still find to be WAY over the hill for chasing the ball with some 20-yr old cornfed from Ohio, is here because he knows Klinsmann. Not because he's objectively good. Who has this management team brought on who has CONSISTENTLY outperformed and delivered? If you say Plata, you're not watching closely enough. The answer is NO ONE. And to those who say we had an amazing second half of last year after the DPs arrived, where is that quality now?

You cant just write off Torsten Frings like that... would you also say David Beckham has no gas left in the tank either?

As for brining in new players... how about Nick Soolsma, Ryan Johnson or more recently Acavel or Silva? Morgan was a talent that was identified early and look at him now.

I have my doubts about Winter but lets be real here. We're one cb and Frings returning away from being a very competitive MLS team. The sky isnt falling yet.

jaxul
03-31-2012, 04:23 PM
If the talent is not there we can vent until we are blue in the face. Koev is slooowww compared to last season, Plata is nowhere near as explosive and Frings left a huge gap. All that being said even if these three where in perfect form we would maybe have 3-4 points from 3 games. We simply do not have a striker with that will to get his nose dirty and with a feel for finishing. Nor do we have a back that will clean everything up and take a patch of grass with him or a mid capable of sending a decent through ball. Management needs to do more to get better talent if they can. Until then we have to swallow the pill and hope for the best. Very few players are actually underachieving. What we see is what they are capable of.The attendance will always be a barometer and the fact that people are selling tickets at more than half off tells you all you need to know.I wish we had a passionate individual owner.End of rant.

v00d00daddy
03-31-2012, 04:27 PM
Coming here and reading this board after a game is more frustrating then actually watching our team play.

I saw better possesion from the guys. We deserved a point from this but 1 collective defensive mistake cost us.

Dom

Totally agree. I thought they played pretty well. They deserved a better result. Some guys had weak games (Plata, Johnson) but I thought others played well. DeGuzman was really good (despite the lost possession that led to the goal) and I thought Eckersely, Morgan and even Harden played okay.

kingkenny07
03-31-2012, 04:30 PM
Football analysts often put blame based on a line known as the "Point of no return" when a player goes from making rational decisions into emergency ones. Emory was in the red zone when he had to clear the ball, and yes, he did not clear it at all. At the same time, the events leading up to this should never have happened at all.

Defenders know not to spend too much time in this frame of defending. In any case, Emory more than made up for this mistake as the game went on but the problem comes when the rest of the defence doesn't properly manage the remaining players. In Harden's case, he should have chosen a man and stuck with him instead of trying to mark both, in effect, making himself useless. De Guzman shouldn't foolishly give away possession like that. Emory shouldn't take the brunt of the blame for a clearance he should never have had to have made in the first place, and yes, I'd much rather Eckersley play WITH our defenders than with our midfielders/forwards.

A Right fullback attacks on a counter - Eckersley spends more time away from the defence than with them, and to what end? We didn't score from an Eckersley run, did we? No. In fact, the only thing that happened was Columbus capitalized on our open right hand side and put the rest of TFC's defence into emergency defending mode.

So, yes, I would rather have Eckersley remain back until needed.

What absolute drivel, Emory had a relatively good game but made a big mistake for the goal. Name me one other opportunity that Columbus had from eckersley being too far forward. Today he was not played as a right back, he was played as a wing back which means he was there to push forward. From your basis then the wing backs and full backs should sit and not provide any width for the team. On this basis how do you expect TFC to break teams down. We had oppertunities today that we did not capitalise on. hen you talk about the crosses not working, yes you are right but what you forgot to mention was that the reason the crosses were not working is because they were coming from too deep, had the full backs pushed up further then we may have been able to get closer to there by line and provide crosses from a more meaningfl area of the pitch.

We were also playing at home against a team that on the balance of play, were inferior. Thus I would have expected more attacking options going forward from outwide.

Beach_Red
03-31-2012, 04:34 PM
You cant just write off Torsten Frings like that... would you also say David Beckham has no gas left in the tank either?

As for brining in new players... how about Nick Soolsma, Ryan Johnson or more recently Acavel or Silva? Morgan was a talent that was identified early and look at him now.

I have my doubts about Winter but lets be real here. We're one cb and Frings returning away from being a very competitive MLS team. The sky isnt falling yet.

It's true, he can't be written off, he'll be back and he'll contribute and TFC will win some games this year.

But it does seem like we're really not doing as well with DP signings as we need to.

volunteer
03-31-2012, 04:34 PM
watching Montreal @ NYRB right now and while being a close, high scoring and entertaining match is anyone else unable to help but feel a little angry, bitter and cheated at the same time because that's how we should have looked a long time ago? :mad5::mad5:

jloome
03-31-2012, 04:39 PM
Here's where I don't buy the Emory blame.

When you have your partner in the back line running frantically back and not marking one or the other, and your "best" defender, Eckersley, up in no mans land, and your CAPTAIN, de Guzman, making a huge mistake and then lazily strolling backwards, you have no other choice other than to follow the flow of the rest of your team. If that flow is wrong, Emory can't be in the right position - if he was, he'd be in the wrong position, because the rest of the team ruined the rest of the shape.

If anyone is to blame for that mistake, it wasn't Emory, it was Eckersley, but can Eckersley be blamed for being too far forward, when we had possession? Nope.

De Guzman, losing the ball with little pressure, killed Toronto FC. As per the usual, de Guzman likes to give the appearance of competency without actually substantiating it.

What are you talking about? Emory blew a straight-up clearance. He took an excited swipe and flicked it to the striker who then buried it in the top of the net. You can have as many grassy knoll versions of that as you like, but that goal was on him. Eckersley had nothing to do with it. A pass to DeGuzman was stripped, but we still had three defenders behind the ball, one of whom coughed it up.

It's not rocket science. Yes, Emory looked pretty good for the rest of the game. But that was totally on him.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-31-2012, 04:41 PM
It was a beautiful afternoon. Couldn't ask for a nicer early season day.

We are catching every break in CCL, and can't buy one in MLS. Weird.

We don't appear to scout opposition. Columbus play a flat back 4, have height at the back, and an MLS MVP CB. High, long crosses into the box are not going to work.

We may suck this year, I'm not sure yet. We don't look as bad as we did last year.

agreed, i like this new semi optimistic Ensco HAHAHAHA

pekduck
03-31-2012, 04:41 PM
well, Henry has 2 goals and 1 assist already. 4-2 bulls

kaos197O
03-31-2012, 04:45 PM
If the talent is not there we can vent until we are blue in the face. Koev is slooowww compared to last season, Plata is nowhere near as explosive and Frings left a huge gap. All that being said even if these three where in perfect form we would maybe have 3-4 points from 3 games. We simply do not have a striker with that will to get his nose dirty and with a feel for finishing. Nor do we have a back that will clean everything up and take a patch of grass with him or a mid capable of sending a decent through ball. Management needs to do more to get better talent if they can. Until then we have to swallow the pill and hope for the best. Very few players are actually underachieving. What we see is what they are capable of.The attendance will always be a barometer and the fact that people are selling tickets at more than half off tells you all you need to know.I wish we had a passionate individual owner.End of rant.

You are wrong there. Frings is that mid. He has been forced to play essentially as a defender though and we haven't been able to utilize his best attributes because we are weak defensively. Sad that his time here may be wasted in that role but without him there..........well I think you see where this is going.

I am disappointed most with our tactics. We launched ball after ball from the half way mark into their box and never abandoned it even though it was clearly never going to work. We are capable of playing through the middle, we have seen it, but for whatever reason, we never mix it up. It's all one way.

As for Eckersley, he pushed up with the play, as per the tactics that have been set out for him and DeGuzman lost the ball as everyone was pushing forward with ZERO pressure on him. Can't blame Ecks for that.

Emory played great but did screw up on that clearance. Too bad as played a really good game otherwise.

There is a lot of love for Silva and I think it's premature. Silva cost us a goal last time he played by not pushing up. If you watch him throughout that game he was not where he should have been most of the time. I think he needs to have better positioning/be more tactically aware and perhaps that's why he's not getting the nod right now. I noticed it in preseason play too. The kid has great talent though and when he gets more with the program he will prove to be a force to be reckoned with.

jloome
03-31-2012, 04:49 PM
To people who keep criticizing strategy: Koevermans and Johnson both had two inches, at least, on Columbus's second centre back Eric Gehrig. And you ALWAYS play to the wings in the 4-3-3. If the other team is playing a defensive counter and is packed tight in the middle, that makes it difficult to cut inside.

We dominated possession, we dominated chances. We just had two major problems today: one defensive brain fart leading to a goal and absolutely no ACCURACY on the crossing. It wasn't strategically incorrect, it was just done incredibly badly. Jesus, Eckersley was given three consecutive chances to put the ball in on one sequence, with two falling short and the third mishit.

Our delivery was shit, and our movement in the box was shit. This was down to performance, not tactics. I would also say that unless he can learn a second move other than the stutter and chase, Plata risks becoming our next Rohan in terms of efficacy: utterly figured out and unproductive, as he has been in two straight games.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 04:54 PM
What are you talking about? Emory blew a straight-up clearance. He took an excited swipe and flicked it to the striker who then buried it in the top of the net. You can have as many grassy knoll versions of that as you like, but that goal was on him. Eckersley had nothing to do with it. A pass to DeGuzman was stripped, but we still had three defenders behind the ball, one of whom coughed it up.

It's not rocket science. Yes, Emory looked pretty good for the rest of the game. But that was totally on him.

I didn't deny that! Emory did make a mistake, but to say "Oh, that goal was Emory's fault" is crap too - it's not. It's the whole of the defence, and more so, de Guzman, for coughing up the ball. This kind of singling out of players solves none of the problems, because putting the whole of the blame on one player's missed clearance is simply short-term appeasement.

The whole defence rises and falls together. Blaming Emory makes it look as though de Guzman, Harden, Eckersley and Morgan did just fine on that run too. They didn't.

I'm sorry, but if Emory is to blame for that goal, then Ryan Johnson and Luis Silva are the reason we're in the semi-finals. If, by the flow of logic that every player is responsible for an outcome, I see Ryan Johnson making it to the semi-finals, because technically he scored so he must be the one to take responsibility for the result, not Toronto FC. Is that what the game is being billed as? Ryan Johnson vs Santos Laguna?

That's not how it works. The whole back line fails together. Emory shouldn't have to make that clearance in the first place.

T-boy
03-31-2012, 04:56 PM
To people who keep criticizing strategy: Koevermans and Johnson both had two inches, at least, on Columbus's second centre back Eric Gehrig. And you ALWAYS play to the wings in the 4-3-3.

Agreed - so why was plata constantly coming in field? He needs to be hugging the touchline, making the field as big as he can, then knocking in the crosses into the box. I think Plata managed maybe one cross all game? Meanwhile Soolsma, who WAS hugging the touchline, WAS getting crosses in - and then he was subbed off! That was a very strange decision by Winter, unless Nick was injured at the half?

The lack of penatration up front is very worrying right now. It's like the 4 offensive players are all playing independantly, none of them attacking in pairs, none of them are coordinated, and its making TFC totally inneffective going forward.

T-boy
03-31-2012, 04:57 PM
I didn't deny that! Emory did make a mistake, but to say "Oh, that goal was Emory's fault" is crap too - it's not. It's the whole of the defence, and more so, de Guzman, for coughing up the ball. This kind of singling out of players solves none of the problems, because putting the whole of the blame on one player's missed clearance is simply short-term appeasement.

The whole defence rises and falls together. Blaming Emory makes it look as though de Guzman, Harden, Eckersley and Morgan did just fine on that run too. They didn't.

I'm sorry, but if Emory is to blame for that goal, then Ryan Johnson and Luis Silva are the reason we're in the semi-finals. If, by the flow of logic that every player is responsible for an outcome, I see Ryan Johnson making it to the semi-finals, because technically he scored so he must be the one to take responsibility for the result, not Toronto FC. Is that what the game is being billed as? Ryan Johnson vs Santos Laguna?

That's not how it works. The whole back line fails together. Emory shouldn't have to make that clearance in the first place.

NOBODY should be blaming Emory for this loss today. I totally blame the fact that we, yet again, couldn't score at home! You don't win games if you can't score goals! The attack was pathetic today! I don't think they could have scored against an under 10's team!

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 04:59 PM
NOBODY should be blaming Emory for this loss today. I totally blame the fact that we, yet again, couldn't score at home! You don't win games if you can't score goals! The attack was pathetic today! I don't think they could have scored against an under 10's team!

This too......I mean, for all the focus we put on our defence, we didn't exactly go out and score, did we?

pekduck
03-31-2012, 05:01 PM
Well, overall, (darn, Henry again from Cooper, 3 goals 1 assist as Montreal losing 2-5)

We need to score. Wing play is great, crosses in are great, but 0 conversion for the last 3 MLS games and against Santos is concerning... what happened to find space behind defense and send in a few throughballs?

reggie
03-31-2012, 05:06 PM
a loss is a loss is a loss.same shit diff year....im going to say it fire wilson ooopps i meant winter..

PearceCFC
03-31-2012, 05:07 PM
wing play looks very good. need to convert crosses and corners.
bright side. Emory looked good (besides the goal)
he seems to be taking the loss hard though.
Logan Emory's Twitter "Speechless. The guys deserved more today. #thisonesonme (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23thisonesonme)"

Canary10
03-31-2012, 05:07 PM
That was actually the most dominant game I have ever seen TFC play.

Armen, you sound hysterical. Take a pill.

We need wins, I know, but that match was unlucky.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 05:11 PM
That was atucally the most dominant game I have ever seen TFC play.

Armen, you sound hysterical. Take a pill.

We need wins, I know, but that match was unlucky.

Dude, I'm just fine :D
Stressing out due to exams and assignments and article deadlines and all sorts, but that's besides the fact.

I'm just tired of individual players being blamed for stuff like this. We demonize our own players for mistakes that aren't entirely their own.

Look at Emory's tweets. There's no way the other players in the locker room went in and said "Look, kid, this is all your fault" - he's been reading our tweets/message boards and we're giving him shit for a mistake that he shouldn't even have had to deal with.

When we point the finger of blame on one player, we do more harm than good. I can tell you that with first-hand experience. Believe me, the things that are said on this forum don't go unread.

Canary10
03-31-2012, 05:15 PM
I hear you. I'm frustrated. But we were 100% better than Columbus today. We are a much better team than them.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 05:19 PM
I hear you. I'm frustrated. But we were 100% better than Columbus today. We are a much better team than them.

Ain't denying it brother :D For once, we did dominate, which makes the Emory blame even more frustrating. The kid looks really solid.

Soccerpro
03-31-2012, 05:20 PM
Several things are hurting the team this year.

1. Koevermans isn't the player he was last year (ie he doesn't do anything this year)
2. Our game plan seems to be whip cross after cross into the box which doesn't work as we can't seem to do anything with them.
3. We have no option "B" at striker
4. Plata sucks this year
5. Our defense still hasn't been fixed
6. We're lacking creaitivity in midfield and Winter seems to think Avila and Silva aren't the answer because he doesn't start them
7. Prioritizing the CCL is killing our MLS season.
8. We don't have much depth, contrary to everyone's opinion at the start of the season.

TOBOR !
03-31-2012, 05:25 PM
To everyone comparing CCL success to league failure, may I Present - Liverpool...

T-boy
03-31-2012, 05:25 PM
Well, if Logan IS reading this - I think you had a great game man, and who cares about one mistake, your striker friends need to man up and score a GOAL! I'd say Emory's was one of TFC's best ever debuts, he was very solid today, keep up the good work man :)

Beach_Red
03-31-2012, 05:26 PM
That was actually the most dominant game I have ever seen TFC play.

Armen, you sound hysterical. Take a pill.

We need wins, I know, but that match was unlucky.

It was a lot like the SJ game - teams know how to play against TFC.

T-boy
03-31-2012, 05:29 PM
It was a lot like the SJ game - teams know how to play against TFC.

agreed. TFC were so one dimensional today! They tried the same things over and over, and they just didn't work!

I'm also at a loss to why Soolsma was subbed at half? He was far more effective than Plata, who stood still for most of the first half! Sometimes winter's sub logic just doesn't make any sense?!

iy12l
03-31-2012, 05:32 PM
Sorry, but I thought Emory was out best player today, by a MILE! I'm not sure what game you were watching? He was dominant in the air, comfy with the ball at his feet - he looks an excellent young CB.

Dude i was saying Emory should be playing over Harden, meaning Harden is bad and Emory is good at CB.

ryan
03-31-2012, 05:33 PM
Several things are hurting the team this year.

Koevermans isn't the player he was last year (ie he doesn't do anything this year)

Doesn't do anything? I would say his ability to receive long balls with the body and make small/quick passes from that to teammates is oft overlooked, as is his subtle chips forward with headers. He's just not finding the net at the moment, but to say he's doing nothing is just foolish rage.


Our defense still hasn't been fixed

What is a fixed defence? A shutout every game? Our defence played well vs Santos and again today. Besides the poor luck on the goal, Emory had a pretty strong game. Harden make a bunch of decent plays as well. (I don't blame him for that shite call on the PK) Morgan continues to make leaps and strides in his game as he grows into a premier LB and Ecks made a ton of well timed tackles and won some difficult balls with determined hard work.

There's always room for improvement, but it's not "broken" and needing to be fixed.



Feel free to bash me for being a TFC apologist though! Proud to be one.

Soccerpro
03-31-2012, 05:39 PM
Doesn't do anything? I would say his ability to receive long balls with the body and make small/quick passes from that to teammates is oft overlooked, as is his subtle chips forward with headers. He's just not finding the net at the moment, but to say he's doing nothing is just foolish rage.



What is a fixed defence? A shutout every game? Our defence played well vs Santos and again today. Besides the poor luck on the goal, Emory had a pretty strong game. Harden make a bunch of decent plays as well. (I don't blame him for that shite call on the PK) Morgan continues to make leaps and strides in his game as he grows into a premier LB and Ecks made a ton of well timed tackles and won some difficult balls with determined hard work.

There's always room for improvement, but it's not "broken" and needing to be fixed.



Feel free to bash me for being a TFC apologist though! Proud to be one.

Koevermans scored last year. He doesn't this year, ever. Hopefully he's almost in shape now.

A fixed defence means being competent, occasionally getting clean sheets and proving to be reliable on a regular basis. The defence this year doesn't appear to be those things.

DoubleUp
03-31-2012, 05:48 PM
an attack of :nakajima-farran..........Koevs................Johnson
.................................................. .........Silva.................................... .....

With lembe, Soolsma, Plata, avila off the bench is much more MLS ready


look at any real MlS attack,Vancouver, New york, Seattle and dc(if you wanna be spiteful) to name a few
then compare ours!

Gentlemen nakajimas contract expires in june, if he doesnt renew(very unlikely) he can be had on a 350-400k we seriously need to petition to bring him in, I stress he is the type of creative force we need uptop and is familiar and possesses the technical ability toplay our 4-3-3.

Its not that winter is a terrible coach, Imo its the fact the players at his disposal are not really capable of playing the attractive football we were all promised.

Oh and emory minus the mistake looked solid, needs improvement but playing out of the back/attacking-wise looks comfortable.

We can turn this around, but we cant let the organization continue to give us crap as crepes.


- Doubleup

Jack
03-31-2012, 05:52 PM
Argue football, argue tactics, argue player selection, player ability and general football stuff, but don't insult people or I'll ban you. This goes for everyone in this thread and on the boards in general. Next insult in this thread gets a ban.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 05:53 PM
an attack of :nakajima-farran..........Koevs................Johnson
.................................................. .........Silva.................................... .....

With lembe, Soolsma, Plata, avila off the bench is much more MLS ready


look at any real MlS attack,Vancouver, New york, Seattle and dc(if you wanna be spiteful) to name a few
then compare ours!

Gentlemen nakajimas contract expires in june, if he doesnt renew(very unlikely) he can be had on a 350-400k we seriously need to petition to bring him in, I stress he is the type of creative force we need uptop and is familiar and possesses the technicle ability toplay our 4-3-3.

Its not that winter is a terrible coach, Imo its the fact the players at his disposal are not really capable of playing the attractive football we were all promised.

Oh and emory minus the mistake looked solid, needs improvement but playing out of the back/attacking-wise looks comfortable.

We can turn this around, but we cant let the organization continue to give us crap as crepes.


- Doubleup

Wanna see what they served us as the TFC Food Tasting? :D

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/431423_3550084035625_1378341787_3511471_923127959_ n.jpg

A hunk of something charred and black...
I had no idea what it was, but evidently, we were meant to taste it :D

(Turns out it was blood pudding, but Crap Crepes would have been my first guess! :D)

TOBOR !
03-31-2012, 06:15 PM
http://ak1.ostkcdn.com/img/mxc/100917_handbags.jpg

Ossington Mental Youth
03-31-2012, 06:15 PM
an attack of :nakajima-farran..........Koevs................Johnson
.................................................. .........Silva.................................... .....

With lembe, Soolsma, Plata, avila off the bench is much more MLS ready


look at any real MlS attack,Vancouver, New york, Seattle and dc(if you wanna be spiteful) to name a few
then compare ours!

Gentlemen nakajimas contract expires in june, if he doesnt renew(very unlikely) he can be had on a 350-400k we seriously need to petition to bring him in, I stress he is the type of creative force we need uptop and is familiar and possesses the technical ability toplay our 4-3-3.

Its not that winter is a terrible coach, Imo its the fact the players at his disposal are not really capable of playing the attractive football we were all promised.

Oh and emory minus the mistake looked solid, needs improvement but playing out of the back/attacking-wise looks comfortable.

We can turn this around, but we cant let the organization continue to give us crap as crepes.


- Doubleup

dunno that Najakima Farran is the answer to our problems

ryan
03-31-2012, 06:32 PM
I wouldn't say he's the answer to our problems, but I think he's an excellent fit for both us and Canada.

RealG-TFC
03-31-2012, 06:36 PM
I also don't think Nakajima-Farran is the answer. I actually think we have the necessary guys to be successful but they have to play better as a team.


I don't know whose "fault" it is, but Ecks and Plata are not working well together at all, and when Plata went to the right side in the second half, the problem was obvious. When the FB pushes up, the wing must cover, but Plata never does. Is it because Ecks is reckless, and is too unaware of what Plata is doing, or because Plata is an offense-only converted striker who can't figure out his responsibilities? It's one or the other.

I was thinking I was alone on this but I feel like Eks is a bit reckless. I love his eagerness to move up, but i don't think he's being very helpful. I feel as though he's one of the main reasons we had so many shitty crosses today. Instead of keeping it on the ground he tends to send in a long pass. That being said, he was excellent at defending today.

I thought that we were most dangerous when Silva and Avila were on the field, and I don't think that was a coincidence.

I'm somewhat disappointed in today's loss because Columbus was ripe for the taking. I don't think their defence was great, I think our attack was not good enough. If you watched their game last week, against Mtl, you could tell that they aren't at their best.

ensco
03-31-2012, 06:55 PM
agreed, i like this new semi optimistic Ensco HAHAHAHA

TFC has provided the two best home games in team history so far in 2012. That has to count for a lot. So I'll focus on the nice weather, the good company, and we'll see where we are in 10 or 15 games.

But I don't want to disappoint you g:D so....

Winter put the whole starting XI in today, and it couldn't be worse, it totally backfired, as we lost anyway. How tired are these guys going to be in the second half in the biggest game in team history Wednesday? Winter still has a lot to prove.

__wowza
03-31-2012, 06:59 PM
throw in crosses when they clearly arent working.
play hoof ball for the last 5 minutes and lose possession in the midfield.

rinse. repeat.

at least i get to read danger reds sarcastic yet poignant responses.

Furtado91
03-31-2012, 07:08 PM
Stop playing that damn hoofball.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 07:16 PM
Columbus Crew Union tweeted the following:

"@CrewUnion: Can we play canadian teams every week?"

I'll make sure they eat those words, check out my "foolishly humorous, April 1st" article tomorrow on this very topic! ;)

iy12l
03-31-2012, 07:20 PM
Columbus Crew Union tweeted the following:

"@CrewUnion: Can we play canadian teams every week?"

I'll make sure they eat those words, check out my "foolishly humorous, April 1st" article tomorrow on this very topic! ;)

Their right, all the Canadian teams are bad or in a bad form, even the Whitecaps. Im pretty sure every American mls team would love to face any Canadian team right now.

Jack
03-31-2012, 07:21 PM
Their right, all the Canadian teams are bad or in a bad form, even the Whitecaps. Im pretty sure every American mls team would love to face any Canadian team right now.
Indeed, it is their right to make silly tweets of that nature.

arbogast
03-31-2012, 07:21 PM
TFC has provided the two best home games in team history so far in 2012. That has to count for a lot. So I'll focus on the nice weather, the good company, and we'll see where we are in 10 or 15 games.

But I don't want to disappoint you g:D so....

Winter put the whole starting XI in today, and it couldn't be worse, it totally backfired, as we lost anyway. How tired are these guys going to be in the second half in the biggest game in team history Wednesday? Winter still has a lot to prove.

Its Wnters tactics that cost us the game. The team whipping in crosses against a team with a stud CB was his first mistake, and his subs after the 60th minute proved inneffective. On top of that, Plata has not proven to be effective this season and should have been subbed off.

__wowza
03-31-2012, 07:22 PM
@armen: rivalries are sad when only one side really gives a damn.

didn't we have a bunch of drunks down there tearing up their stadium with a couple thousand of our supporters? wasn't that the only reason people in columbus started caring about their team again? lest we forget they mentioned that a win over toronto would return them to their beloved "trillium cup glory", i guess that's a thing to look forward to winning when you don't have the champions league to worry about. i mean, who needs champions league in EPL when you could win the prestigious carlsburg cup, amirite?

DoubleUp
03-31-2012, 07:24 PM
[QUOTE=RealG-TFC;1466934]I also don't think Nakajima-Farran is the answer. I actually think we have the necessary guys to be successful but they have to play better as a team.


I strongly disagree! the exact type player he is, is what we lack. And there is a difference between looking dangerous and being dangerous.

I am not making him the saviour, but he is a step in the right direction to winning. He is the equivalent of Davide Chiumiento (http://redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Davide_Chiumiento) in ability and creativity the type player we dont have.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 07:24 PM
Don't worry! It's not what you think it is, but it is devilishly humorous according to the few I've shown so far ;)

I'll link to it in the blogs thread tomorrow!

As for this game, bad luck, good play, no finish, we shall move on! :D

And Nakajima-Ferran is a gangster, straight up. He'd be awesome in our lineup though I don't think we can afford him.

123 elite
03-31-2012, 07:37 PM
I hear you. I'm frustrated. But we were 100% better than Columbus today. We are a much better team than them.

Respectfully that just wasn't true. Columbus neutralised us quite easily and they are not a good team. As others have said Plata was poor but in my book Danny K was honking like a big goose today. That guy is unfit and immobile. He could barely jump 3 inches off the ground. Consistently unable to adjust his pace or position to anything that didn't land on his toe or his forehead. Delivery was poor for sure but when you are looking to DPs for a bit of invention or something extra of somekind he had nothing. JDG.... bench him. Absolutely useless. I thought Emroy and Soolsma and Kocic were our only pass marks

AmherstNY_TFC
03-31-2012, 07:39 PM
Frings is badly missed. There was a hole up the middle of the pitch on the Columbus goal that you could drive a truck through. I think any one on this forum could have scored with that much space.

It's frustrating to watch them work hard and get some bounces their way, and then see them work hard and come up with nothing. Two defensive mistakes (there was no need to concede that penalty), and one goes in.

Also, did anyone notice that there were a number of balls crossed in meant for Plata? It seemed that many of the crosses were meant for Plata to get something on. Why are we asking the shortest man in MLS to get up in the air for crosses?

DoubleUp
03-31-2012, 07:39 PM
Don't worry! It's not what you think it is, but it is devilishly humorous according to the few I've shown so far ;)

I'll link to it in the blogs thread tomorrow!

As for this game, bad luck, good play, no finish, we shall move on! :D

And Nakajima-Ferran is a gangster, straight up. He'd be awesome in our lineup though I don't think we can afford him.

On "transfer market" his value is similar to eckersley and less than frei's, I am pretty sure we could offer him something nice to come play and create on our wings.

In june he'll virtually be unemployed and will have no legs to stand on when negotiating.

I just dont want us to dismiss it, and not atleast explore it.

These are type of move's winning teams make not picking up MlS rejects, players that others teams disgarded.

-Double up

arbogast
03-31-2012, 07:43 PM
Respectfully that just wasn't true. Columbus neutralised us quite easily and they are not a good team. As others have said Plata was poor but in my book Danny K was honking like a big goose today. That guy is unfit and immobile. He could barely jump 3 inches off the ground. Consistently unable to adjust his pace or position to anything that didn't land on his toe or his forehead. Delivery was poor for sure but when you are looking to DPs for a bit of invention or something extra of somekind he had nothing. JDG.... bench him. Absolutely useless. I thought Emroy and Soolsma and Kocic were our only pass marks

I mentioned Plata as a problem, but your nalysis of Danny K was also spot on. He looked exactly as you said - unfit, immobile and also disengaged. He offered little if anything to the attack. I'm glad you mentioned Soolsma's play, b/c I thought he was far more effective than Plata as well.

jazzy
03-31-2012, 07:48 PM
Some conclusions after the game:

1. We are the doormats of the MLS.
Again.
The 6th season in row.

0-3 / 1-7 goal differential

2. If we'll lose any more than 4 total points at home in all remaining games, will be almost impossible to make the playoffs.
You heard this from me first time. You can rub this affirmation later in my face if I'm wrong somehow...

3. The technical staff of TFC looks like total idiots after this game:
We played almost all the starting 11 which will start in Mexico (this gives almost no chance even for a decent performance there), yet we still shit the bed badly.

4. Plata and Danny K are total busts so far this year.
I hope that at least they will play soon enough close to the potential they showed us last year.

5. Sorry for Frei's injury, but right now, if he's continuing to play like he's done this year, Milos should be clearly our first choice keeper, even after Frei will be fully fit after his injury.

^normally this a rant, but unfortunately all this is true.......why didn't Avila, Silva, Cann and whoever else didn't play wed start today....it wouldn't have been worse....and now after 3 games in 1 week , coming up Wed after crossing the continent....:facepalm:, so apt!!!!

There is no way we are making the play-offs......love the guys but for some reason we NO ONE respects us and actually love coming into our "house"......I support these fookers but I am very confused and disheartened......someone please tell me what is the difference btwn say mexican squads and mls , we play well tactically against so called ' better 'teams and shit the bed against big bad MLS teams..????? is it the rough stuff , constant aggressive hitting and we haven't got the skill or / strength,.. play our game ,..whatever that is......and we have what a 1000 more games left.....argh,........Winter sometimes european theory doesn't fit with scrubs and you have to adapt....because we can't live up to the technical demands it seems.......

AmherstNY_TFC
03-31-2012, 07:52 PM
I have resigned myself to the fact that I support a doormat. It seems that TFC has the reverse Midas touch. Nothing that they do seems to work. And now, we don't even have the best stadium atmosphere (Portland and Seattle blow everyone away).

I actually am dreading next week.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 07:56 PM
[/B]On "transfer market" his value is similar to eckersley and less than frei's, I am pretty sure we could offer him something nice to come play and create on our wings.

In june he'll virtually be unemployed and will have no legs to stand on when negotiating.

I just dont want us to dismiss it, and not atleast explore it.

These are type of move's winning teams make not picking up MlS rejects, players that others teams disgarded.

-Double up

Toronto FC should be looking at some of these Canadian U23s as well

The salary/transfer fee is not the issue, Issey would come for a non-DP status - the problem is the cap space we have available, not sure if we have enough for another $350k player

denime
03-31-2012, 07:58 PM
Ahhh,it's ok.:hide:

We lost today ,we will win on Wednesday,that's our pattern this year,shit in MLS good in CCL. :cheers:

Rhapido
03-31-2012, 08:05 PM
If Frings was on the pitch today, the Columbus attack would never have been given the 40+ yards of open space to run at our goal.

DoubleUp
03-31-2012, 08:10 PM
Toronto FC should be looking at some of these Canadian U23s as well

The salary/transfer fee is not the issue, Issey would come for a non-DP status - the problem is the cap space we have available, not sure if we have enough for another $350k player

This is true but we already have players in this age range, we have enough youngsters we need seasoned professionals now.


Cap space is/might be an issue but thats why frei's contract to me is an issue especially if we would be giving Kocic the #1 spot.

Walms
03-31-2012, 08:11 PM
I just finished watching the game on my pvr....and It just wasnt for us today.

I think we out played Columbus for 80 of the 90 minuets and created more goal scoring chances than I can count on one hand.
Today we just lacked that final leathel touch to put the ball in the back of the net. Once Koves gets his forum back were going to be killing MLS teams.

I loved the passion and creativity our boys showed today and they never gave up until the end.
My one criticl comment would be we need to keep the ball on the pitch a bit more, but besised Emory's one mistake it was a great showing from TFC!

I'm proud tonight, even with the loss!

jloome
03-31-2012, 08:21 PM
Ain't denying it brother :D For once, we did dominate, which makes the Emory blame even more frustrating. The kid looks really solid.

Again, you're making up something that doesn't exist.

No one said he was to blame for us losing. No one.

Lots of people blamed him for the goal .... because he was to blame for the goal.

But when we dominate possession and lose 1-0 then obviously, no, that's not one guy's fault.

Putting that argument on everyone else then screaming like a school girl about him being unfairly targeted is unfair to the other people posting. If you want to debate the merits of the goal -- which is what that started as, with you saying he wasn't to blame for the goal -- then debate the merits of the goal. Don't invent positions for other people and then argue against them. It's intellectually dishonest.

Cashcleaner
03-31-2012, 08:28 PM
I don't get how anyone can really say Toronto dominated the pitch today*. I don't think we were terribly outplayed, but Columbus was the better of the two teams out there. I think we would have had a much better chance if Frings was playing, no doubt, but let's understand something - we're in real trouble as a club if we have to pin our victories on one man like this.

Koevermans and JDG are definitely not pulling their fair share, though what can be done at this point in time to change that? Relja and Island Man made good points about maybe giving up on difficult crosses, especially to Plata. The guy is fucking 5'3'' and he's getting directed into the box to finish off a cross with three Columbus guys that could literally eat him for lunch and have room left over for half a David Guzman!!

As for Emory, I think he can definitely play better, but got a little unlucky today. The guy at least looks like he wants to play and isn't dragging himself up and down the pitch like others seem to be. Kocic's save against Mirsevic's PK was pretty sweet, though. He's my pick for Man of the Match.

* Disclaimer: Probably nobody said such a thing at all.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 08:30 PM
Again, you're making up something that doesn't exist.

No one said he was to blame for us losing. No one.

Lots of people blamed him for the goal .... because he was to blame for the goal.

But when we dominate possession and lose 1-0 then obviously, no, that's not one guy's fault.

Putting that argument on everyone else then screaming like a school girl about him being unfairly targeted is unfair to the other people posting. If you want to debate the merits of the goal -- which is what that started as, with you saying he wasn't to blame for the goal -- then debate the merits of the goal. Don't invent positions for other people and then argue against them. It's intellectually dishonest.

I'm sorry, let's just put it all behind us.

I'm speaking purely out of the intention of not singling players out - whether it's for the goals or for the games.
I don't agree that he was responsible for the goal, and part of it wasn't just what was being posted on the forums.

In the end of the day, it's just a post-game of a frustrating match.

DangerRed
03-31-2012, 08:33 PM
throw in crosses when they clearly arent working.
play hoof ball for the last 5 minutes and lose possession in the midfield.

rinse. repeat.

at least i get to read danger reds sarcastic yet poignant responses.

Haha. Hey, you know where I stand right now. At least I'm consistent...

..unlike our team.
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/216/7nTnr.png

NBS
03-31-2012, 08:53 PM
They are obviously emotionally invested in the CCL right now and can't muster enough for MLS play. Johnson confirmed as much on the Soccer Show on Thursday. Once the destruction in Mexico is complete this week, this team will get on track in MLS.

Hamilton_Red
03-31-2012, 09:19 PM
We really needed a win today Winter had no choice but to for it. To get past Wednesday will be nothing short if a miracle..3points today were the priority. Winning the CCL is a bigger feat than the MLS & personally I enjoy watching TFC against Mexican teams over US teams. The sad thing is that the way things are going...this could be our last appearance in the CCL for a while.

SKB
03-31-2012, 09:32 PM
I thought Logan played very well. He had A bit of A nervous start but he got stronger as the game went on. If we keep Eckersley 23 Morgan 21. Emory 24 that is a decent young back line. We need an experienced CB with speed to glue them together. None of our existing defenders will help us. Aceval is decent player but not a Centre back. All the rest Cann, Harden, Dicoy will not fill the bill. Henry and Maine are too young.

Not sure why Koervermans and Plata are playing so poorly. They got us a lot of goals last year but right now they are off form.

tfcocd
03-31-2012, 09:40 PM
I just finished watching the game on my pvr....and It just wasnt for us today.

I think we out played Columbus for 80 of the 90 minuets and created more goal scoring chances than I can count on one hand.
Today we just lacked that final leathel touch to put the ball in the back of the net. Once Koves gets his forum back were going to be killing MLS teams.

I loved the passion and creativity our boys showed today and they never gave up until the end.
My one criticl comment would be we need to keep the ball on the pitch a bit more, but besised Emory's one mistake it was a great showing from TFC!

I'm proud tonight, even with the loss!


I thought we looked good with the ball for spells and I have to believe if we continue to dominate possession the goals and wins will come. Plata does seem to be struggling with his back to the net and they need to find some other ways to get him involved. Obviously not aerially!

I really thought after Kocic's save they might go onto win... oh well it was a nice sunny day on the east side, hopefully we can take advantage of the 'new boys' from montreal next week.

billyfly
03-31-2012, 09:59 PM
Ugh and sigh

Detroit_TFC
03-31-2012, 10:21 PM
Ugh and sigh

QFT. Pretty much all the analysis you need right there.

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 10:24 PM
Rumour has it Toronto FC have made a trade with Los Angeles.
Luis Silva is being mentioned...

Code Red
03-31-2012, 10:41 PM
Rumour has it Toronto FC have made a trade with Los Angeles.
Luis Silva is being mentioned...

Wtf? Link?

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 10:44 PM
It's OFFICIAL:

Luis Silva, Joao Plata traded to LA in exchange for Andrew Boyens, Nick Garcia re-added on 1-year term.

http://www.rednationonline.ca/TorontoFCpickupNickGarciaandAndrewBoyens.aspx

tfcocd
03-31-2012, 10:56 PM
It's OFFICIAL:

Luis Silva, Joao Plata traded to LA in exchange for Andrew Boyens, Nick Garcia re-added on 1-year term.

http://www.rednationonline.ca/TorontoFCpickupNickGarciaandAndrewBoyens.aspx

Few minutes early..... but nice one!

Thomas
03-31-2012, 11:20 PM
I can't figure out why you spend so much time on a supporters forum. It really sounds like you feel vindicated when we loose.


LOL...

So, to all the cheerleaders, which excuse are you guys going with today?

I'm betting it'll be "oh this is fine, we're focused on Santos right now, who cares about the league?" Or, "we were tired from Santos, which we just played on Wednesday?"

Hahaha. I wish I had the optimism you guys do. Out of curiosity, anyone know when we last started a season with three straight losses?

Yohan
03-31-2012, 11:25 PM
I hate losing to Columbus as much as I hate losing to Montreal

I think Eckersley hates losing to Columbus too. He was pissed at the end of the game. At least he gives a fuck (Ecks for future TFC captain)

ArmenJBX
03-31-2012, 11:26 PM
Eckersley has captain potential for sure, maybe the temper/cards might hold him back but he is a leader on the pitch and off.

lobo
03-31-2012, 11:27 PM
um, nice weather at bmo today. that is all i have to say about that.

LesH
03-31-2012, 11:31 PM
It's OFFICIAL:

Luis Silva, Joao Plata traded to LA in exchange for Andrew Boyens, Nick Garcia re-added on 1-year term.

http://www.rednationonline.ca/TorontoFCpickupNickGarciaandAndrewBoyens.aspx

Oh man, this is great news!
Boyens is OK, but I'm more happy for Garcia!
Now we don't need to worry at all about Frings being out for a while, Nicky Garcia will be a rock solid anchor in the back!
:scarf::flare::drum::canada:

Thomas
04-01-2012, 12:02 AM
I was impressed with Ecks today. Despite the talk of Him being at fault for a goal against, I thought Logan was solid. Danny K looked ineffective and weak. It's too early to start writing him off, and I sure hope he starts producing. Toronto should not have lost that game. It was ours for the taking.


Eckersley has captain potential for sure, maybe the temper/cards might hold him back but he is a leader on the pitch and off.

Cashcleaner
04-01-2012, 12:25 AM
We really needed a win today Winter had no choice but to for it. To get past Wednesday will be nothing short if a miracle..3points today were the priority. Winning the CCL is a bigger feat than the MLS & personally I enjoy watching TFC against Mexican teams over US teams. The sad thing is that the way things are going...this could be our last appearance in the CCL for a while.

I completely agree that the CCL is the bigger priority between it and MLS, but I'd wager most other TFC fans probably don't know what the competition entails. Like it or not, our standing in MLS is what most people really pay attention, which is why making the playoffs is still still essential for the club this year regardless of how well we do within CONCACAF. The club posted today's attendance at around 18,944, but watching the game on TV I'd be surprised it was much over 16,000. There were A LOT of empty seats on TV and a friend who worked the gate didn't think it was all that crowded as well. I'm not saying we need to panic (again, we get crowds other clubs can only dream of) but be mindful that our performance in the league is how the majority of fans judge this team and so far TFC isn't doing a good job to inspire confidence.

jabbronies
04-01-2012, 12:38 AM
I just gotta say
WHAT A SAVE BY MILOS!!!

bman27
04-01-2012, 01:00 AM
I'm not getting panicked about koov just yet, he is heavily marked all game (which is as expected for a dp- striker) but I wouldn't say his play has been particularly bad, he hasn't been getting good or any service at times, and he has had a few shots that just have not sat right for him,His vision and skill is still there, i get the feeling that once he gets one, he will start to pop them, it's just getting that monkey off his back

Yohan
04-01-2012, 01:05 AM
I'm not getting panicked about koov just yet, he is heavily marked all game (which is as expected for a dp- striker) but I wouldn't say his play has been particularly bad, he hasn't been getting good or any service at times, and he has had a few shots that just have not sat right for him,His vision and skill is still there, i get the feeling that once he gets one, he will start to pop them, it's just getting that monkey off his back
I agree that Koev just needs that one goal to get his juju going, but he had like 3 good chances this game. He should be burying one of them at least

Roogsy
04-01-2012, 01:24 AM
I am going to preface my comments and responses to previous posts by starting off saying this.

Despite being 0-3 in the league so far, I don't believe the playoffs are out already. If the Frings injury doesn't keep him out for too long and he comes back fit sooner rather than later, all is not lost.

Also, this team is definitely better than what we started off with last year. Some unlucky injuries, some unlucky bounces and a glut of games to start the season are already taking their toll. These things are undeniable.

Ok...so happy-go-lucky Roogsy is done. Now back to good ol'Roogsy you all know and love, especially my fans.


People here are forgetting that TFC is without Frings.
I think with Frings, we would have been 2-1.

One thing to judge this teams leaders are on who they are bringing in. Without better defenders, a quality rebuild has not been done.

The Frings issue is something that I will address at the end, I believe it to be THE issue of this team, everything else is secondary. Suffice to say, last year I did not believe the rebuild was good enough or that Winter knew what he was doing and that has not changed for me.


It was a beautiful afternoon. Couldn't ask for a nicer early season day.

We are catching every break in CCL, and can't buy one in MLS. Weird.

We don't appear to scout opposition. Columbus play a flat back 4, have height at the back, and an MLS MVP CB. High, long crosses into the box are not going to work.

We may suck this year, I'm not sure yet. We don't look as bad as we did last year.

I agree with Ensco. I was at a funeral this afternoon so I could not make the game but it was a beautiful day and TFC is playing a huge game Wednesday. These are positives, among the obvious negatives.


That was actually the most dominant game I have ever seen TFC play.



I am sorry but this is a clear-cut case of rose-coloured glasses. I could understand if you were using a hyperbole to describe TFC being the better team on the day, but they weren't even that.


I don't get how anyone can really say Toronto dominated the pitch today*. I don't think we were terribly outplayed, but Columbus was the better of the two teams out there. I think we would have had a much better chance if Frings was playing, no doubt, but let's understand something - we're in real trouble as a club if we have to pin our victories on one man like this.

Koevermans and JDG are definitely not pulling their fair share, though what can be done at this point in time to change that? Relja and Island Man made good points about maybe giving up on difficult crosses, especially to Plata. The guy is fucking 5'3'' and he's getting directed into the box to finish off a cross with three Columbus guys that could literally eat him for lunch and have room left over for half a David Guzman!!

As for Emory, I think he can definitely play better, but got a little unlucky today. The guy at least looks like he wants to play and isn't dragging himself up and down the pitch like others seem to be. Kocic's save against Mirsevic's PK was pretty sweet, though. He's my pick for Man of the Match.

* Disclaimer: Probably nobody said such a thing at all.

Cash and I always seem to be on the same page. I wholeheartedly agree with this. So let me add to this in addition to what I made reference to above.

Good teams do NOT rely on one man. We have 3...count them THREE Designated Players and only 1 of them is carrying their weight this season. In fact, there is one particular DP we all know and love that has not consistently shown up for over 2 seasons, going on 3. It seems we have finally figured out Mr Julian Bobby De Guzman. He is only effective playing against teams that play a similar style. Hence his above-average effectiveness in Spain, there were more teams that played the way he likes. He has been a complete bust in MLS. Think back to the games where he has been effective and you will find that he shrinks when facing larger physical teams pressing defensively, which means JDG is ineffective vs at least half of MLS. It has taken a while, but in my opinion, he has earned his spot as probably the worst DP signing in MLS history. Not because he was as bad as Denilson or Mista, (they were awful) but because of his individual AND accumulated cost. Denilson and Mista barely last a year, if that. JDG has now been with us 2.5 years and will eventually be with us for 3.5 years for an accumulated cost probably over 6million.

Read that again. 6million.

Now nobody can blame Winter for JDG's signing, but keeping him on is definitely on Winter. Teams have the ability to dump DPs in the off-season and relieve themselves of the salary cap burden. Winter has had TWO off-seasons to get rid of JDG and has chosen not to. That's on him and Mariner.

Now...Torsten Frings.

The Beast.

The General.

In his short time here, he has become more indispensable to Toronto FC than any player on this team ever. More than Danny. More than DeRo. This team is a shadow of itself without him.

Sounds good right?

Wrong.

For all the people that were ragging on DeRo because you shouldn't "build around a single player" guess what...that's exactly what TFC has done.

Forget the stats I was throwing out like a machine gun at the end of last season, all we have to do is look at the start of this season to see that this team can't defend and thus can't score without Torsten Frings. If he is out for the year (heaven forbid) kiss the playoffs good-bye.

So...shouldn't all those people that were so vocal about not building around a single player, be up in arms now? Toronto FC needing defensive help was obvious to everyone including my 1 year old boy. If you asked someone on the streets of Toronto that hasn't seen a single TFC game and asked them what TFC needed, even THEY would have known that TFC needed defensive help. And yes, Mariner and Winter did seem to try. They brought in trialists. Most didn't stay. We signed Aceval (solid so far I think although not exceedingly impressive) and then some filler, but that was not good enough. As I mentioned before, after all was said and done, it was plain to some of us that Frings, who is most useful in font of the defensive line, would have to be used once again to shore up the backline. And low and behold that is exactly what happened.

Listen, we may or may not find our groove. We may or may not make the playoffs. But what this poor league start has shown us is that this team has not been built well, something most people around here failed to realize due to the euphoria of becoming "not sucky" at the end of 2011. I know many were over the moon over the results at the end of the 2011 season but as I tried so often to show, the statistics didn't show reason to be euphoric. It simply showed the team went from becoming exceedingly poor to merely being average. Even moreso, a point I tried to make over and over again...the team itself hadn't improved, nor was it Winter's shiny new fandangled tactics that improved the results, the better results came immediately after the arrival of the DPs and their immediate contribution. And look here and the most important DP is out and instead of gutting out a couple of draws here and there and looking solid, waiting for the return of Frings, instead the statistics look very much like the team of last year that looked to set records of futility once again (even though we have TWO DPs healthy and playing). And that doesn't prove my theory that it was the arrival of the DPs (and now more obviously Frings) that caused our turnaround, not Winter? I pointed last year to the Galaxy when they were missing Donovan and Beckham, gutting out draws until their stars returned and then they went on a tear. It appears TFC is not able to do that...yet.

Now...back to being positive. The season is young. The East is weak. There is plenty of time to right the ship especially if we get Frings back.

But I certainly hope these few early games have opened people's eyes to Winter. Take the pom-poms off and let the team know that we won't accept another year like last year and that playoffs and competence in the form of at least some sort of above-average record are a must.

jloome
04-01-2012, 01:30 AM
I'm sorry, let's just put it all behind us.

I'm speaking purely out of the intention of not singling players out - whether it's for the goals or for the games.
I don't agree that he was responsible for the goal, and part of it wasn't just what was being posted on the forums.

In the end of the day, it's just a post-game of a frustrating match.

Yeah, ditto. They're just a bit snake-bitten right now, I think.

boozilla
04-01-2012, 02:05 AM
DeRo is gone. Deal with it.

ArmenJBX
04-01-2012, 02:29 AM
Roogsy, youre finest point to date.

You said, in few words, whats been formulating in my head slowly but surely.

Now wheres that up-rep button

rocker
04-01-2012, 03:55 AM
Last year's team looked worse at the start of the season than this one looks... but last year's team had a better record after 3 games. They have to stay the course and eventually the goals will come. For now I chalk this up to bad luck.

T-boy
04-01-2012, 08:02 AM
I agree that Koev just needs that one goal to get his juju going, but he had like 3 good chances this game. He should be burying one of them at least

I'd say Koev has three "half chances" at best. One header was a semi good chance, the other chances, he got the ball with his back to goal, so its only really a half chance.

My issue isn't with Koev, but with the style we are attacking right now. It's so slow and laboured - and Koev's is SO isolated. There was so many times yesterday that Koev's knocked on a header, but there was nobody around him to pick up the ball. When you put the ball to Koev's head, he usually wins the ball, but somebody, ANYBODY, has to follow up and pick up the loose ball.

I'm really not a fan of this 4-3-3 at ALL, and its still not growing on me. the attacking football is so slow and boring! It's like watching 4 independant forward players trying to attack...there is no coordination, no teamwork. I've always been told to attack in pairs in football - but we don't do that at all. Soolsma puts in a cross to Koev, Koev wins the header, then there is nobody around him getting the ball. The ball then goes to an opponent, and we have to start all over again. You HAVE to attack in pairs, somebody HAS to help out Koev and pick up the knocked down header!

And Winter and the team have NO excuse anymore - they've had a whole off season to work on all this, but they seem worse than last year going forward. What HAVE they practiced off season? All these players should know each other VERY well by now, but its like they are a bunch of strangers!

DoubleUp
04-01-2012, 08:09 AM
I'd say Koev has three "half chances" at best. One header was a semi good chance, the other chances, he got the ball with his back to goal, so its only really a half chance.

My issue isn't with Koev, but with the style we are attacking right now. It's so slow and laboured - and Koev's is SO isolated. There was so many times yesterday that Koev's knocked on a header, but there was nobody around him to pick up the ball. When you put the ball to Koev's head, he usually wins the ball, but somebody, ANYBODY, has to follow up and pick up the loose ball.

I'm really not a fan of this 4-3-3 at ALL, and its still not growing on me. the attacking football is so slow and boring! It's like watching 4 independant forward players trying to attack...there is no coordination, no teamwork. I've always been told to attack in pairs in football - but we don't do that at all. Soolsma puts in a cross to Koev, Koev wins the header, then there is nobody around him getting the ball. The ball then goes to an opponent, and we have to start all over again. You HAVE to attack in pairs, somebody HAS to help out Koev and pick up the knocked down header!

And Winter and the team have NO excuse anymore - they've had a whole off season to work on all this, but they seem worse than last year going forward. What HAVE they practiced off season? All these players should know each other VERY well by now, but its like they are a bunch of strangers!



To your point Our buildup is very slow when stringing passes/touches together, and the most important we dont support the ball carry with enough options when in possession.

T-boy
04-01-2012, 08:12 AM
To your point Our buildup is very slow when stringing passes/touches together, and the most important we dont support the ball carry with enough options when in possession.


I totally agree. Our off ball movement going forward is terrible so far this season. Plata was caught standing totally still over and over again yesterday. I was yelling at him to move into empty space and give the posession player options, but he never moved. Every time Plata got the ball, he was stood on their number 15's toes, essentially marking himself out the game.

Football is all about running into space, creating the space for yourself. TFC aren't doing this at all right now.

DoubleUp
04-01-2012, 08:18 AM
I totally agree. Our off ball movement going forward is terrible so far this season. Plata was caught standing totally still over and over again yesterday. I was yelling at him to move into empty space and give the posession player options, but he never moved. Every time Plata got the ball, he was stood on their number 15's toes, essentially marking himself out the game.

Football is all about running into space, creating the space for yourself. TFC aren't doing this at all right now.

Imo when it comes to this basic concept we look lazy and unwilling. And our inability to perform at this level, something so basic is why our buildup looks staggered and lacks professional crispness.

ManUtd4ever
04-01-2012, 08:33 AM
I appreciate Winter's efforts in trying to earn a result in league play, but if we were going to suffer a shut out loss at home with only 3 days to rest prior to the most important match in franchise history, it might as well have been our B squad out there on the pitch.

Rene Kingsriver
04-01-2012, 08:37 AM
There's no denying TFC had more of the possession and made chances in the first half but their performance after going behind was disappointing. Columbus never looked stretched, I find it hard to accept that we deserved to win on this performance especially as the home team. Obviously we're desperately missing Frings but we can't just write off the start of the season until he comes back, at this rate we could be 0-6. Montreal is now a vital game, I don't know about the rest of you but I'll be a lot more forgiving losing to the likes of Seattle, San Jose and Columbus than being humiliated by the Impact.

ensco
04-01-2012, 08:38 AM
^Roogsy State of the Nation:

JDG: I agree 100% on JDG. I personally think people want him to succeed so badly that there is an industry here of writing "finally he's MOTM today" posts. But he's never MOTM. However to be fair to Winter, this may be an MLSE/Anselmi/Beirne thing, not a Winter thing. Winter may well not have the ability to tell MLSE to eat JDG's contract, it's been the story of all our franchises here: new management cannot really clean up the mistakes of the old group, because every new hire feels pressure to "try to make it work" with the higher profile (and expensive) existing personnel. Glaring exception was Dero, who actually pissed off Anselmi.

Winter's ability to coach: not really addressed by Roogsy, but he and I historically have pasted Winter for it, as we looked like a high school team for a lot of 2011, and there were many incidents with players in 2011 (not Dero) that made you seriously wonder. I am less critical on this than I used to be. There was no FC Hollywood of the North stuff for the first offseason ever, so that's a plus. The team clearly looks better organized, and has been wonderful tactically, really sterling in both CCL games in Toronto. But then you see us banging our head on the wall yesterday, trying and failing the same basic move 17 times, and not adjusting when it's clearly not working. So I'm on the fence on this one.

Bringing in defenders: this is a big problem and may well get Winter fired. Holy shit. Iro and Aceval are all they've done. You've got to be kidding me. That's a serious fail after 15 months and two off seasons. Here's an example of what they needed to do: I remember posting about this signing when it happened, and then we all watched this player have a fine game last weekend:
http://www.sjearthquakes.com/news/2011/12/earthquakes-sign-honduran-international-bernardez
Now I don't know the story on Bernandez, maybe SJ had a discovery claim in on him for years, but we are not competing well (or at all) for these types of player, who are sitting literally right under our nose.

Frings: I'd say this is more generally a reflection on the high risk involved in older DPs, and on our talent finding/signing issues. 33 and 35 year olds have to round off your roster in football, not play core roles, for the reasons we're all seeing. But I guessWinter has no choice. I'm not so sure Winter "built" the team around Frings so much as he has no choice given the talent level. Which is the real criticism. The core talent level has not gone up much or at all in 15 months.

DangerRed
04-01-2012, 08:40 AM
I can't figure out why you spend so much time on a supporters forum. It really sounds like you feel vindicated when we loose.

You answered your own question there. I do feel vindicated when we lose because I think the guy in charge is on the wrong track, the team lacks talent in many areas and being told to play a system they are not skilled enough to play. I love this team, or I should say, the Platonic archetype, the idea this team represents, and I get upset when it's fucked with on an ongoing basis. I love MLSE for bringing a pro football club to this city, too. But I'm a supporter, not a cheerleader. I believe the cheerleaders right now are doing harm to the team because they are postponing any accountability for the infield failures of the current regime. Until that accountability is instilled in all players and in management, we'll continue to lose. I hope that answers your question.

tfc007
04-01-2012, 08:48 AM
Emroy played brilliant,very good passer of the ball,very calm on the ball superior to Ty Harden.I know he fucked up on the clearing attempt that cost us a goal but overall solid performance here and I thought he played well also in Seatlle.Today I thought the problem was up front in the final third! I know guys its getting real frusterating for everybody!In our part keep cheering and have faith that things will turn around!

TorontoGooner
04-01-2012, 09:01 AM
Oh man, this is great news!
Boyens is OK, but I'm more happy for Garcia!
Now we don't need to worry at all about Frings being out for a while, Nicky Garcia will be a rock solid anchor in the back!
:scarf::flare::drum::canada:

Sorry to do this mate, but have you checked the date?

ManUtd4ever
04-01-2012, 09:10 AM
Emroy played brilliant,very good passer of the ball,very calm on the ball superior to Ty Harden.I know he fucked up on the clearing attempt that cost us a goal but overall solid performance here and I thought he played well also in Seatlle.Today I thought the problem was up front in the final third! I know guys its getting real frusterating for everybody!In our part keep cheering and have faith that things will turn around!

I agree, Logan Emory had an impressive overall debut.

bigredone
04-01-2012, 09:14 AM
Sorry to do this mate, but have you checked the date?


Plastic wrap over my toilet would have been funnier this morning.

Pookie
04-01-2012, 10:18 AM
One the positive front, Emory played a very solid game and I thought our building from the defensive 1/3 was strong. Eckersley had a few miscues after winning the ball in spectacular fashion but that's probably why he is over here and not over there.

I found the distribution wide to be effective in the mid field but we seemingly looked for chances to pass when there were prime shooting lanes available. Ryan Johnson comes to mind there.

I still don't get how anyone thinks playing a ball through the air to a covered Joao Plata is going to give him any chance to win the ball.

All in all, the Crew played a counter attacking style and scored on one of their counter attacks. We had a reasonable amount of possession (not going to say dominated) but couldn't effectively cross it into high yield areas to make it count. Kocic is value for the money. As a player, he'd inspire confidence for me.

On the negative front, CCL success seems to be getting less publicity than being winless in 3. Perhaps for good reason but man is it ever strange to feel so good about the team's progress in one area (beating Vancouver, then the Group success with that game in Dallas as the defining moment, then both games with LA, then Santos) and then throw your hands up with a -6 goal differential and no points to start the season.

How do you fire a guy that has taken a MLS team to places where very few MLS teams have ever gone, who has brought more extra home playoff dates than any other coach in TFC history... maybe even combined? Yet the writing is on the wall for another disappointing MLS campaign, so shouldn't someone be taking notice of that?

Certainly is a weird and perplexing set of circumstances

Canary10
04-01-2012, 10:26 AM
TFC were by far the superior team out there yesterday. Columbus had little possession, did next to nothing going forward except the one counter, and looked immobile and flatfooted.

Trust me, I'm as pissed as everyone about losing, expecially to a team that we were much better than on the day, but fuck, the overreaction to this game on the board is astounding. There is nothing from this game to point to a huge structural issue in the team, or Winter, or the formation or anything. This is a game we should have won and didn't. I've played football a long time. Unfortunately those games happen.

If I have one serious criticism of TFC from this it's the lack of play on the deck in the final third. THey tried to go wide and cross, which didn't work on a team of giants. The chances they produced were through interplay and attacking the channels. Columbus has big, immobile defenders who can't deal well with tight play. We didn't do that enough. Beyod that I think the player selection was good and overall the tactics were good. We just lacked that final ball.

On Koevernmans: the fitness thing is ridiculous. Koevermans has NEVER been a player that beats his defenders through pace. He IS an immobile striker for fucks sake. That's what he always has been. He's a target man. MOST of them are like that! He beats defenders through intelligent runs, not speed. And he holds the ball through hs size. He is still doing most of those things required of a target man, but he's clearly off on his final ball, and positioning on those low crosses. He's had a ton of balls come in that last year he would have scored on, but he's a step off the right positioning to get his foot on it. He's got to fix that soon. But it's ridiculous to start saying he's shit now. Brutal.

ManUtd4ever
04-01-2012, 10:38 AM
For those of you who were around to watch Welcome Back Kotter, is it just me or does Logan Emory bare a striking resemblance to Arnold Horshack?

http://www.mlssoccer.com/sites/league/files/imagecache/620x350/image_nodes/2012/03/emory.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-q0gfif49Q6Q/TeZaLcHxZSI/AAAAAAAAAMc/rFe-nQOvxyc/s1600/horshack.jpg

g:D

AmherstNY_TFC
04-01-2012, 10:41 AM
To sort of "Yes, and...." Roogsy, shouldn't we also question Paul Mariner's performance to date? If we're not sure that the tactics/playing system aren't working, shouldn't we also look at who put together this roster as well?

If I'm not mistaken, our first round pick in the 2011 Super Draft, Ompheroy (sp?), was released. Most of the players brought in via trade (Tchani, Iro, etc.) are gone. There have been short-term boosts in the Designated Player market as well, but whether these will be long-term solutions to some long-standing problems in the orgainziation is uncertain. Also, everyone knew that we needed to strengthen our defense, but the two players signed have not necessarily proven that they are the answer. Aceval has been hit and miss, and Caciedo was a bust.

Paul Mariner has a great reputation, having helped build the Revolution into an MLS Cup contender. But, the same can't be said here. There still seems to be a long way to go, and I am not sure what the plan is to improve the team other than get Cann and Frings back in the side. So, if we're questioning how this team is managed on match day, don't we also have to question whether the man who put it together in the first place is getting the job done?

I'm not trying to start a "Fire Mariner" campaign. I think we should all take an objective look at whether they have improved the personnel enough to be a legitimate contender. While it's fair to question his batting average in trades, he should get credit for always trying to improve the talent level. When it became apparent that Tchani was not up to snuff, he was shipped out. He made the trade with San Jose to bring in Johnson. They made moves in the free agent and Designated Player market. It creates a "How can I make my team better today?" attitude that is crucial. But, whether the results match the attitude is questionable.

So, if we're calling into question the players, the tactics, and the manager's in-game decisions, don't we also have to look at the personnel department as well?

DoubleUp
04-01-2012, 10:54 AM
TFC were by far the superior team out there yesterday. Columbus had little possession, did next to nothing going forward except the one counter, and looked immobile and flatfooted.

Trust me, I'm as pissed as everyone about losing, expecially to a team that we were much better than on the day, but fuck, the overreaction to this game on the board is astounding. There is nothing from this game to point to a huge structural issue in the team, or Winter, or the formation or anything. This is a game we should have won and didn't. I've played football a long time. Unfortunately those games happen.

If I have one serious criticism of TFC from this it's the lack of play on the deck in the final third. THey tried to go wide and cross, which didn't work on a team of giants. The chances they produced were through interplay and attacking the channels. Columbus has big, immobile defenders who can't deal well with tight play. We didn't do that enough. Beyod that I think the player selection was good and overall the tactics were good. We just lacked that final ball.

On Koevernmans: the fitness thing is ridiculous. Koevermans has NEVER been a player that beats his defenders through pace. He IS an immobile striker for fucks sake. That's what he always has been. He's a target man. MOST of them are like that! He beats defenders through intelligent runs, not speed. And he holds the ball through hs size. He is still doing most of those things required of a target man, but he's clearly off on his final ball, and positioning on those low crosses. He's had a ton of balls come in that last year he would have scored on, but he's a step off the right positioning to get his foot on it. He's got to fix that soon. But it's ridiculous to start saying he's shit now. Brutal.I know he's older now but this koevermans, looks ten times more athletic, cooridnated and confident than the one we have.................Man I was so excited.
m1LdvKiTQuU

Yohan
04-01-2012, 10:55 AM
To sort of "Yes, and...." Roogsy, shouldn't we also question Paul Mariner's performance to date? If we're not sure that the tactics/playing system aren't working, shouldn't we also look at who put together this roster as well?

If I'm not mistaken, our first round pick in the 2011 Super Draft, Ompheroy (sp?), was released. Most of the players brought in via trade (Tchani, Iro, etc.) are gone. There have been short-term boosts in the Designated Player market as well, but whether these will be long-term solutions to some long-standing problems in the orgainziation is uncertain. Also, everyone knew that we needed to strengthen our defense, but the two players signed have not necessarily proven that they are the answer. Aceval has been hit and miss, and Caciedo was a bust.

Paul Mariner has a great reputation, having helped build the Revolution into an MLS Cup contender. But, the same can't be said here. There still seems to be a long way to go, and I am not sure what the plan is to improve the team other than get Cann and Frings back in the side. So, if we're questioning how this team is managed on match day, don't we also have to question whether the man who put it together in the first place is getting the job done?

I'm not trying to start a "Fire Mariner" campaign. I think we should all take an objective look at whether they have improved the personnel enough to be a legitimate contender. While it's fair to question his batting average in trades, he should get credit for always trying to improve the talent level. When it became apparent that Tchani was not up to snuff, he was shipped out. He made the trade with San Jose to bring in Johnson. They made moves in the free agent and Designated Player market. It creates a "How can I make my team better today?" attitude that is crucial. But, whether the results match the attitude is questionable.

So, if we're calling into question the players, the tactics, and the manager's in-game decisions, don't we also have to look at the personnel department as well?

-Omphroy was a 2nd round pick
-Aceval played 5 games. A little too early to judge him?
-There has been a lot of trades that was more short term plug, to keep going until end of last season and reset for this season. I think Mariner's job got harder than when he was at NE, because he has to look for very specific players to fit Winter's system, and it's going to take a while to identify and acquire those players.

Beach_Red
04-01-2012, 10:57 AM
^Roogsy State of the Nation:

JDG: I agree 100% on JDG. I personally think people want him to succeed so badly that there is an industry here of writing "finally he's MOTM today" posts. But he's never MOTM. However to be fair to Winter, this may be an MLSE/Anselmi/Beirne thing, not a Winter thing. Winter may well not have the ability to tell MLSE to eat JDG's contract, it's been the story of all our franchises here: new management cannot really clean up the mistakes of the old group, because every new hire feels pressure to "try to make it work" with the higher profile (and expensive) existing personnel. Glaring exception was Dero, who actually pissed off Anselmi.



This seems likely. It would be out of character for MLSE to have handed over all the decisions to someone just arrived (with no real reputation in the league). And it has been a problem since the beginning. I was hoping that Mariner/Winter would have been able to get more control over the team but it is going to be tough. Winter was upfront that he wanted to keep DeRo and who knows what he wanted to do about JDG. It did seem a little early in the Mariner/Winter regime to bring in two DPs and take away that option for later as Winter got to know the league better.

I guess this is what they call a 'hybrid rebuild' and there are still a lot of cooks in this kitchen.

Rene Kingsriver
04-01-2012, 10:58 AM
TFC were by far the superior team out there yesterday. Columbus had little possession, did next to nothing going forward except the one counter, and looked immobile and flatfooted.

Trust me, I'm as pissed as everyone about losing, expecially to a team that we were much better than on the day, but fuck, the overreaction to this game on the board is astounding. There is nothing from this game to point to a huge structural issue in the team, or Winter, or the formation or anything. This is a game we should have won and didn't. I've played football a long time. Unfortunately those games happen.

If I have one serious criticism of TFC from this it's the lack of play on the deck in the final third. THey tried to go wide and cross, which didn't work on a team of giants. The chances they produced were through interplay and attacking the channels. Columbus has big, immobile defenders who can't deal well with tight play. We didn't do that enough. Beyod that I think the player selection was good and overall the tactics were good. We just lacked that final ball.

On Koevernmans: the fitness thing is ridiculous. Koevermans has NEVER been a player that beats his defenders through pace. He IS an immobile striker for fucks sake. That's what he always has been. He's a target man. MOST of them are like that! He beats defenders through intelligent runs, not speed. And he holds the ball through hs size. He is still doing most of those things required of a target man, but he's clearly off on his final ball, and positioning on those low crosses. He's had a ton of balls come in that last year he would have scored on, but he's a step off the right positioning to get his foot on it. He's got to fix that soon. But it's ridiculous to start saying he's shit now. Brutal.

Sorry but this just wasn't an example of one of those games where a team does everything but score and loses. We did ok in the first half but never put Columbus under undue pressure, the Crew did the minimum they had to in order to win that game. Possession counts for shit unless you use it. There are still significant problems with this team, the only player who is performing close to his best in my opinion is Johnson and he can't do everything.

Canary10
04-01-2012, 11:07 AM
^ I didn't say there aren't problems. Just that blowing the whole fuckn thing up is a huge overreaction to a game we should have won.

Thomas
04-01-2012, 11:10 AM
I wasn't asking a question. I consider myself a supporter too. I think I kind of understand where you are going with your rambling statement.


You answered your own question there. I do feel vindicated when we lose because I think the guy in charge is on the wrong track, the team lacks talent in many areas and being told to play a system they are not skilled enough to play. I love this team, or I should say, the Platonic archetype, the idea this team represents, and I get upset when it's fucked with on an ongoing basis. I love MLSE for bringing a pro football club to this city, too. But I'm a supporter, not a cheerleader. I believe the cheerleaders right now are doing harm to the team because they are postponing any accountability for the infield failures of the current regime. Until that accountability is instilled in all players and in management, we'll continue to lose. I hope that answers your question.

Roogsy
04-01-2012, 11:31 AM
DeRo is gone. Deal with it.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised people will choose to disregard the point of the post and dwell on something that isn't there. Try addressing the points in the post and your comment may carry more weight.

Derko
04-01-2012, 11:44 AM
Yes I remember, DeGuzman give up the ball. Trying do what h always does, move laterally into trouble and why was Harden frantically waving instead of concentrating on defending, Aceval and Emory in the centre of defence and sit Harden, that's hat I would do as a coach

Pookie
04-01-2012, 11:46 AM
This seems likely. It would be out of character for MLSE to have handed over all the decisions to someone just arrived (with no real reputation in the league). And it has been a problem since the beginning. I was hoping that Mariner/Winter would have been able to get more control over the team but it is going to be tough. Winter was upfront that he wanted to keep DeRo and who knows what he wanted to do about JDG. It did seem a little early in the Mariner/Winter regime to bring in two DPs and take away that option for later as Winter got to know the league better.

I guess this is what they call a 'hybrid rebuild' and there are still a lot of cooks in this kitchen.


I don't think there should be any disagreement on this point. Anselmi is very much a part of the reporting structure, as he always has been.

Unless I missed a new org chart somewhere, Winter and Mariner report to him. He then reports to the Board. Whether he is behind every move is impossible to know. At the same time, the org structure clearly points to his responsibility as the head of TFC which makes him accountable and certainly introduces the potential for him to exert control over decisions made that impact the roster.

Yohan
04-01-2012, 11:51 AM
Yes I remember, DeGuzman give up the ball. Trying do what h always does, move laterally into trouble and why was Harden frantically waving instead of concentrating on defending, Aceval and Emory in the centre of defence and sit Harden, that's hat I would do as a coach
looks like Harden was directing/screaming at Morgan to mark Columbus #26, who was trailing the play on the left side of TFC defence. I swear Harden just can't win sometimes

Pookie
04-01-2012, 11:52 AM
@DangerRed - if "...the cheerleaders right now are doing harm to the team because they are postponing any accountability for the infield failures of the current regime..." to what do you attribute CCL success? Luck?

As much as I find the MLS results thus far unacceptable, this team under Winter did knock off Vancouver. They knocked Dallas out of the group stage. They knocked LA out of the quarterfinals and though we are incredible underdogs going into Mexico, they are in a position to do what very few, if any, MLS sides have ever done.

Their performance in CCL has been nothing short of an incredible success story.

It really is a very strange storyline being written. If "Tale of Two Cities" didn't have copyrights to the line "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times" that could very well be the motto for this year to-date.

ag futbol
04-01-2012, 11:52 AM
Overall we played alright but I don't exactly recall us putting them under siege or really testing their back four often. We just kept throwing crosses into Chad Marshall's wheel-house and came out with nothing to show for it. It was a nothing game really. Nothing great from us, nothing great from them, and nothing to write home about other then a penalty save from Kocic.

That being said, I'd stop short of any grand statements some people seem to be alluding to that we somehow deserved points because:
1) Defensive mistakes continue to be an issue
2) Our much vaunted attack can't seem to put the ball in the net.

While those two problems aren't as obvious when taking this game in isolation, when you look at the pattern overall this was just one more match where we needed improvements in these areas to win... but didn't get them.

reggie
04-01-2012, 11:56 AM
bottomline...you have to score to win..one win in six games is not good enough.

Canary_canuck
04-01-2012, 12:14 PM
bottomline...you have to score to win..one win in six games is not good enough.
I like Neil Warnock's quote after Leeds' game yesterday : " I couldn't see us scoring in a brothel today ". Seems to fit TFC.

Roogsy
04-01-2012, 12:18 PM
bottomline...you have to score to win..one win in six games is not good enough.


More importantly it's 2 losses at home. That makes the damage a little bit worse.

Pookie
04-01-2012, 12:26 PM
bottomline...you have to score to win..one win in six games is not good enough.

Agreed.

Signed,

LA Galaxy

Beach_Red
04-01-2012, 12:39 PM
Their performance in CCL has been nothing short of an incredible success story.

It really is a very strange storyline being written. If "Tale of Two Cities" didn't have copyrights to the line "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times" that could very well be the motto for this year to-date.

Don't worry about it, it's in the public domain now (you may be able to pass your season tickets to your kids, but what Dickens wrote is no longer his...).

And it's true, it's possible that the rest of the season will play out more like the CCL with more a lot more success than these first three games.

Roogsy
04-01-2012, 12:41 PM
Unlikely until Frings comes back.

DoubleUp
04-01-2012, 12:51 PM
bottomline...you have to score to win..one win in six games is not good enough.

1 goal in 3 games.

But we dont have an attacking problem:facepalm:

Rene Kingsriver
04-01-2012, 12:54 PM
Agreed.

Signed,

LA Galaxy

Don't know if you noticed but the Galaxy are reigning MLS champions

Yohan
04-01-2012, 01:01 PM
Don't know if you noticed but the Galaxy are reigning MLS champions

I think the point is that it's not just TFC that's having problems. even supposedly the best team in the league has same problem. gotta love MLS (and LA looked really poor at home vs New England. NEW ENGLAND! who I admit looked really sharp away at HDC)

Roogsy
04-01-2012, 01:05 PM
Don't know if you noticed but the Galaxy are reigning MLS champions

And consecutive Supporters Shield winners.

Roogsy
04-01-2012, 01:09 PM
I think the point is that it's not just TFC that's having problems. even supposedly the best team in the league has same problem. gotta love MLS (and LA looked really poor at home vs New England. NEW ENGLAND! who I admit looked really sharp away at HDC)

Funny how it seems in our short existence we've seen teams struggle, succeed and struggle again. Or vice versa. But our TFC seems to see more struggles than success.

Rene Kingsriver
04-01-2012, 01:12 PM
I think the point is that it's not just TFC that's having problems. even supposedly the best team in the league has same problem. gotta love MLS (and LA looked really poor at home vs New England. NEW ENGLAND! who I admit looked really sharp away at HDC)

And because they are supposedly the best team in the league there's validity to the argument that they will come good and this run of poor form is just temporary. Considerably more validity than applies to Toronto FC in the same situation.

jazzy
04-01-2012, 01:23 PM
[QUOTE=RealG-TFC;1466934]I also don't think Nakajima-Farran is the answer. I actually think we have the necessary guys to be successful but they have to play better as a team.


I strongly disagree! the exact type player he is, is what we lack. And there is a difference between looking dangerous and being dangerous.

I am not making him the saviour, but he is a step in the right direction to winning. He is the equivalent of Davide Chiumiento (http://redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Davide_Chiumiento) in ability and creativity the type player we dont have.

this just justifies the hole we've been in having a million dollar DP,...essentially wasting our time,..(at that price anyway) AND we are unfortunately getting used to this. It cripples our team, and I feel everyone has swept this sad truth under the bed, with Winter esp being handcuffed ,.."again"..for another year..even when we improve such as ball control, other weakness's pop up ,, eg; goal scoring,.. weak CB's....it's a shame really....just think how this 'truth' is felt on the bench as we scold minimum salaried players not being able to take control of a game. .....Anyone even think Winter would want to hang around after this?...Frings was his glue and now he's done and a gaping hole is exposed.......shame really.....still not sure why every rookie wasn't playing due to game wed.....

BayernTFC
04-01-2012, 01:43 PM
Emory looked good (besides the goal)
he seems to be taking the loss hard though.
Logan Emory's Twitter "Speechless. The guys deserved more today. #thisonesonme (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23thisonesonme)"

I've been impressed with what I've seen from Logan Emory so far. He filled in well at LB for us at Seattle and again in central defense yesterday against Columbus at BMO. He's confident with the ball at his feet, and he seems to know how to mark his man as well as knowing where to position himself when he's away from the run of play. Emory was in the right place on the Bernardo Anor goal. He just attempted an awkward clearance that Anor managed to block. Those things happen. It shows a lot of maturity when a young guy, such as Emory, steps forward and accepts blame. It reminds me of the class Milos kocic showed after his slip up against Real Esteli in the first leg of the CCL qualifier. Mistakes happen. Work hard to limit them, or make sure they don't happen again. Put the last game behind you and make the most of your next opportunity.

ensco
04-01-2012, 02:04 PM
I know he's older now but this koevermans, looks ten times more athletic, cooridnated and confident than the one we have.................Man I was so excited.
m1LdvKiTQuU

Maybe we should take a look at this guy. He's available, and you'll never see a better youtube package

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFoSnDQl1BM

Ossington Mental Youth
04-01-2012, 02:06 PM
I've been impressed with what I've seen from Logan Emory so far. He filled in well at LB for us at Seattle and again in central defense yesterday against Columbus at BMO. He's confident with the ball at his feet, and he seems to know how to mark his man as well as knowing where to position himself when he's away from the run of play. Emory was in the right place on the Bernardo Anor goal. He just attempted an awkward clearance that Anor managed to block. Those things happen. It shows a lot of maturity when a young guy, such as Emory, steps forward and accepts blame. It reminds me of the class Milos kocic showed after his slip up against Real Esteli in the first leg of the CCL qualifier. Mistakes happen. Work hard to limit them, or make sure they don't happen again. Put the last game behind you and make the most of your next opportunity.

this is more or less what i tweeted to him

DoubleUp
04-01-2012, 02:22 PM
Maybe we should take a look at this guy. He's available, and you'll never see a better youtube package

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFoSnDQl1BM



Actually he's retired: fail

and he stop trying and left.

BayernTFC
04-01-2012, 02:30 PM
this is more or less what i tweeted to him
Good on you. I'm glad someone did. As others have pointed out, the lone goal was not the reason why TFC failed to win. My understanding is that Emory comes to TFC after a couple of seasons with the Puerto Rico Islanders. As supporters, we need to recognize that Logan is a young player who has just graduated to North America's division 1. He's only played twice for TFC. The Coaching staff has to recognize that he will need to be protected now and again. Logan needs to not use those facts as an excuse and improve on the positive play he has shown. We all need to continue to hold up our end of the bargain.

jloome
04-01-2012, 02:32 PM
And because they are supposedly the best team in the league there's validity to the argument that they will come good and this run of poor form is just temporary. Considerably more validity than applies to Toronto FC in the same situation.

Unless LA signs a starting centre back who can hold the line before mid-season, they won't make the playoffs.

Yesterday, New England destroyed them. the game wasn't as close as the 3-1 scoreline suggested. And a big part of that was the fact that they had no height on the backline. AJ Delagarza, supposedly their backline leader, is 5'9.

LA has major, major problems. And it's not just defence. Arena pulled Beckham yesterday due to lack of effort -- read Arena's interview and he basically said it was a lesson for everyone to work harder. Keane has hinted already about going back overseas.

Losing Omar G. hit that team like a ton of bricks. I dont' see any recovery there.

Comparatively, we controlled yesterday's game for about 75% of it, and had two or three major blunders. We also missed a couple of sitters and Johnston hit a post. So Really, the vitriol about it is more to do with the 0-3 start than the way we've been playing.

In point of fact, I'd say we have as much chance or better of turning it around than LA, where even the interplay isn't good.

jloome
04-01-2012, 02:33 PM
Even with that goal, Bayern, we should have had at least a point. We can't control the ball that long and waste it.

los sonadores
04-01-2012, 02:48 PM
Yes, O-3 sucks but they don't look bad at all on the pitch. Admittedly, I couldn't be at the game and only saw the 2nd half on TV (so I could be wrong about this) but the fan support seemed very weak, much below the standard on the field. Too many games or what? It must difficult to be given great support one match then poor the next.

Blizzard
04-01-2012, 02:49 PM
I've been impressed with what I've seen from Logan Emory so far. He filled in well at LB for us at Seattle and again in central defense yesterday against Columbus at BMO. He's confident with the ball at his feet, and he seems to know how to mark his man as well as knowing where to position himself when he's away from the run of play. Emory was in the right place on the Bernardo Anor goal. He just attempted an awkward clearance that Anor managed to block. Those things happen. It shows a lot of maturity when a young guy, such as Emory, steps forward and accepts blame. It reminds me of the class Milos kocic showed after his slip up against Real Esteli in the first leg of the CCL qualifier. Mistakes happen. Work hard to limit them, or make sure they don't happen again. Put the last game behind you and make the most of your next opportunity.

Emory just needs some more experience at this level of play. He looked good ... apart from the goal.

TFC USA
04-01-2012, 02:50 PM
On a lighter note, it was great to hear Nigel Reed commentating again for us. I miss him so much.

Blizzard
04-01-2012, 02:54 PM
Yes, O-3 sucks but they don't look bad at all on the pitch. Admittedly, I couldn't be at the game and only saw the 2nd half on TV (so I could be wrong about this) but the fan support seemed very weak, much below the standard on the field. Too many games or what? It must difficult to be given great support one match then poor the next.

Coming between Santos Laguna first and second legs of the CCL semi-final, this game was, for many, anticlimactic. Too many games? Yes, I suppose that is true. The supporters are still there in force IMO but as for the rest of the stadium .........................

Blizzard
04-01-2012, 02:55 PM
I agree. I'm glad TSN picked him up. Obviously he was subbing for Luke who was handling the Whitecaps. I hope this wasn't a one-off.

los sonadores
04-01-2012, 02:58 PM
On a lighter note, it was great to hear Nigel Reed commentating again for us. I miss him so much.

Yeah, he's a class act - and good to listen to an actual football commentator. Dasovic though, was not a good match for him, those two couldn't be more unalike. Reed doesn't actually need a second - he's knowledgeable and has adapted to the more talky North American style (more talky than it was in his BBC days).

los sonadores
04-01-2012, 03:02 PM
Coming between Santos Laguna first and second legs of the CCL semi-final, this game was, for many, anticlimactic. Too many games? Yes, I suppose that is true. The supporters are still there in force IMO but as for the rest of the stadium .........................

And that damn booing... not a good or smart send off to Torreón....

Oldtimer
04-01-2012, 03:04 PM
Some thoughts:

I agree with Roogsy that the defense is a negative that the current management should be judged on. I'm not sure whether that is really Winter, I think that Mariner was brought in as the MLS genius who knows the league, but he has failed to deliver in this very important area.

As far as JDG, I think Ensco's take is the most accurate one (not surprising, he has a good feel for ML$E politics). I don't think any manager in TFC history has had total freedom to do what they think fits. Certainly Preki wasn't allowed to get rid of DeRo when he wanted to, and I doubt that Winter has the freedom to write of ML$E's investment in JDG. Frankly, I expect JDG to be offered a new contract after this year in the $200k range, and he would be a decent enough player at that price.

At $200k, even if JSG's benched against half the MLS teams, his play against CONCACAF opposition is not just good, it's very good, and would make him worthwhile. He is a one-dimensional style player who only plays well against possession-oriented system, but when he does play against them he seems to do well. I've seen him almost be able to read the minds of Mexican opposition and be perfectly positioned to counter them. As far as direct-oriented MLS teams, he's a bust.

Winter himself seems to tactically do very well against possession oriented teams (the strategy against Santos was excellent), but seems lost against more direct playing teams. Hopefully Winter can adapt, but it's possible that, just like JDG, he's really playing in the wrong league. Anyhow, I will continue to give Winter more time, but he needs to broaden his potential strategies. That's what distinguishes a mediocre manager from a really good one.

I don't think the playoffs are a write-off, unless Frings is out a really long time. I do think that our CCL playoff run is at an end.

rocktml
04-01-2012, 03:08 PM
Anyone have a clip of the "Fuck you columbus" chant?

Canary10
04-01-2012, 03:17 PM
This is one time where the loss didn't have anything to do with Frings not being on the pitch. I'm not sure it would have been that different overall had he been there. I'd rather he was, and certainly ANYONE who could have brought some fresh thinking into what was a stale and predictable attack would have been welcome. But creativity in the final third isn't really Frings's strong suit so not sure we would have scored with him in.

This game sets up two absolute must-wins in our next two league games.

ensco
04-01-2012, 03:25 PM
This game sets up two absolute must-wins in our next two league games.

Hmmmm

We are playing Montreal at 12 noon Saturday.
60 hours after the end of a massive game at altitude.
It'll probably take 12 hours door to door to get to Montreal.
It'll be the fifth game in 14 days.
It's a huge rivalry game for Montreal, probably their biggest game of the year.

It kills me to say this, but, objectively, we are unlikely to win next Saturday, and it's not reasonable to get upset, if we don't.

Canary10
04-01-2012, 03:34 PM
^ I'm aware of that and it's a tall order but they need points badly.

Rene Kingsriver
04-01-2012, 03:38 PM
Hmmmm

We are playing Montreal at 12 noon Saturday.
60 hours after the end of a massive game at altitude.
It'll probably take 12 hours door to door to get to Montreal.
It'll be the fifth game in 14 days.
It's a huge rivalry game for Montreal, probably their biggest game of the year.

It kills me to say this, but, objectively, we are unlikely to win next Saturday, and it's not reasonable to get upset, if we don't.

I can accept not winning but a loss to Montreal is unthinkable, in the 5 years of TFC mediocrity one of the few things to be proud of is never having lost to those Impact bastards. Sorry but rationality goes out the window for this one.

Beach_Red
04-01-2012, 03:53 PM
LA has major, major problems...

Comparatively, we controlled yesterday's game for about 75% of it, and had two or three major blunders...

In point of fact, I'd say we have as much chance or better of turning it around than LA, where even the interplay isn't good.

Well, we better. Because in a salary-cap league you have to plan for the cycles - LA did just that and planned for last year (which they probably thought of as Beckham's last) to be their big year this cycle. And it worked. Now they'll be down for a few years as they ride the next cycle.

For TFC this year and next year - with the tree DPs contracts all coming to an end - are likely to be the top of the cycle for a while.

BayernTFC
04-01-2012, 03:55 PM
Even with that goal, Bayern, we should have had at least a point. We can't control the ball that long and waste it.
We had our chances, no doubt. I think there's a bigger problem for TFC that ag futbol pointed out:


Overall we played alright but I don't exactly recall us putting them under siege or really testing their back four often. We just kept throwing crosses into Chad Marshall's wheel-house and came out with nothing to show for it. It was a nothing game really. Nothing great from us, nothing great from them, and nothing to write home about other then a penalty save from Kocic.


I think it's important to remember that Columbus was the away team yesterday. To this point of the season, visiting teams seem to be playing the exact type of game they want to at BMO. I didn't get the impression that Columbus was feeling pressured much by TFC. Columbus' backline remained organized and didn't panic even when TFC had their chances. Columbus bunkered after the 70th minute and TFC didn't manage any sustained play in the offensive end that I would describe as dangerous. We had some opportunities but, by and large, the Columbus defenders had TFC attackers covered.

Yohan
04-01-2012, 03:55 PM
Well, we better. Because in a salary-cap league you have to plan for the cycles - LA did just that and planned for last year (which they probably thought of as Beckham's last) to be their big year this cycle. And it worked. Now they'll be down for a few years as they ride the next cycle.


uhhhh... LA didn't plan to be 'down'. In fact, that added more to this year's roster, but didn't plan for losing Omar Gonzalez

DangerRed
04-01-2012, 04:03 PM
Hmmmm

We are playing Montreal at 12 noon Saturday.
60 hours after the end of a massive game at altitude.
It'll probably take 12 hours door to door to get to Montreal.
It'll be the fifth game in 14 days.
It's a huge rivalry game for Montreal, probably their biggest game of the year.

It kills me to say this, but, objectively, we are unlikely to win next Saturday, and it's not reasonable to get upset, if we don't.

Oh wow - we're now making excuses for losses that haven't even taken place yet. Does no one see anything odd in that?

Red Rat
04-01-2012, 04:12 PM
To all you that don't know where Torreon is and think that altitude will be an issue, well look it up before you make comments
Torreon lies just over 1,000, just because Mexico city is high up in the clouds it doens't mean that the whole country is

Red Rat
04-01-2012, 04:13 PM
rant over

DoubleUp
04-01-2012, 04:27 PM
Oh wow - we're now making excuses for losses that haven't even taken place yet. Does no one see anything odd in that?


I do! but its a cultural thing so I just ignore it.

"Whats the point in winning when we can just make excuses for not doing so. Theres no relegation so we'll always be in the Mls.":rolleyes:

ensco
04-01-2012, 04:28 PM
Oh wow - we're now making excuses for losses that haven't even taken place yet. Does no one see anything odd in that?

Hey bucko, for all I know I will want Winter gone in a month or two also, but in the meantime....I have a fair bit of experience playing the "you are all just apologists for the FO" game around here, let me give you a couple of pieces of advice:

- It always helps when you make some sort of argument, as opposed to just calling people out. I listed a set of facts that led me to conclude the odds are against us in the Montreal game. I think they're pretty objective. You got a fact or argument that says otherwise, let's hear it.
- Spare me (and us) the attitude lectures. Nobody cares what you think a "good supporter" is. Everybody has to decide for themselves.

BayernTFC
04-01-2012, 04:30 PM
This is one time where the loss didn't have anything to do with Frings not being on the pitch.
I don't like the use of hypotheticals. Frings wasn't injured during this game, so why should he enter into the equation? TFC prepared to play without him, and Columbus prepared to play against a team without Torsten Frings. I'm with you that his absence shouldn't be used as an excuse for that game.


This game sets up two absolute must-wins in our next two league games.
The pressure is certainly going to continue to be turned up on TFC for the short-term at least. The game against Montreal was always likely to be important. It's a lot more fun to watch when there is a belief that every game has meaning.

Whoop
04-01-2012, 04:42 PM
At what point is altitude considered with Torreon at 3200+ feet above sea level? Salt Lake City 4000+ Denver 5000+

Auzzy
04-01-2012, 04:44 PM
^ Well it will have some impact, but alot less that Salt Lake City (which is 30% higher) and Colorado (which is 50% higher), or especially Mexico City etc.

KGH
04-01-2012, 04:48 PM
I posted this in the seattle thread but i"ll repost here as I think its relevant:


If you watched the Seattle game last night you can see the players ran out of gas. I think it has to do with altitude. Santos Laguna play at 3,674 ft above sea level. In comparison Denver is at 5,280 feet while Seattle is at its highest point 520 feet and Toronto is at 249 feet.

I pulled this off the web

"As mentioned, high altitude is accompanied by a decrease in the partial pressure of oxygen which, turn, leads to a reduction in the driving pressure for oxygen transport and a corresponding fall in VO2max. The magnitude of this decline is around 5-7% per 1,000m(4) (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/altitude-training-effects.html#ref). An increase in altitude of as little as 600m has been shown to decrease the performance of cyclists in five-minute cycle power test by 5.9%(5) (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/altitude-training-effects.html#ref)."

BayernTFC
04-01-2012, 04:50 PM
rant over
I understand your frustration. I also dislike the excuse making. ensco posted some good advice. Your comments are best used in rebuttal to a poor argument. I'm not sure how effective they are randomly posted in a thread about the match against Columbus. All the pressure and expectations are on Santos Laguna. Even if the game was at altitude, it doesn't matter. It's a two-legged tie, and we had our match at BMO.

Derko
04-01-2012, 05:16 PM
Even with that goal, Bayern, we should have had at least a point. We can't control the ball that long and waste it.

Agreed, there were a many wasted chances, and sometimes it's just a matter of striking the ball at the top of the box, instead of trying to run the ball in, I know it may seem like desperation, but down 1- nil with 5 minutes plus added time you have to push for that goal and take the shots, don't you think.

LesH
04-01-2012, 05:21 PM
Oh man, this is great news!
Boyens is OK, but I'm more happy for Garcia!
Now we don't need to worry at all about Frings being out for a while, Nicky Garcia will be a rock solid anchor in the back!

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/smilies/scarf.gifhttp://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/smilies/flare.gifhttp://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/smilies/drum.gifhttp://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/smilies/Custom/canada.gif


Sorry to do this mate, but have you checked the date?

Sorry mate, but I thought everybody will sense that I'm joking too...

Derko
04-01-2012, 05:23 PM
looks like Harden was directing/screaming at Morgan to mark Columbus #26, who was trailing the play on the left side of TFC defence. I swear Harden just can't win sometimes

I know and sometines he will make that great tackle to stop a goal.

Yohan
04-01-2012, 05:26 PM
I know and sometines he will make that great tackle to stop a goal.

:redface::redface::redface:

iy12l
04-01-2012, 05:30 PM
I know Emory is cup-tied for CCL so we should play in mls games this back line

Ecks-Emory-Aceval-Morgan

and in ccl

Ecks-Henry-Aceval-Morgan

We really need speed in our defence and that why we need Henry on.

Ajax TFC
04-01-2012, 06:28 PM
I posted this in the seattle thread but i"ll repost here as I think its relevant:

If you watched the Seattle game last night you can see the players ran out of gas. I think it has to do with altitude. Santos Laguna play at 3,674 ft above sea level. In comparison Denver is at 5,280 feet while Seattle is at its highest point 520 feet and Toronto is at 249 feet.

I pulled this off the web

"As mentioned, high altitude is accompanied by a decrease in the partial pressure of oxygen which, turn, leads to a reduction in the driving pressure for oxygen transport and a corresponding fall in VO2max. The magnitude of this decline is around 5-7% per 1,000m(4) (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/altitude-training-effects.html#ref). An increase in altitude of as little as 600m has been shown to decrease the performance of cyclists in five-minute cycle power test by 5.9%(5) (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/altitude-training-effects.html#ref)."

I'm assuming that by "last night" you mean the night that Seattle played Santos right?
Altitude may have played a part in it, but from what I watched, Seattle played way too spread out in the midfield. They had trouble finding each other and they put next to no pressure on the Santos players.
We could easily fall apart in Mexico as well, but we will not fall apart in the same way that the Flounders did

Pookie
04-01-2012, 07:06 PM
I posted this in the seattle thread but i"ll repost here as I think its relevant:

If you watched the Seattle game last night you can see the players ran out of gas. I think it has to do with altitude. Santos Laguna play at 3,674 ft above sea level. In comparison Denver is at 5,280 feet while Seattle is at its highest point 520 feet and Toronto is at 249 feet.

I pulled this off the web

"As mentioned, high altitude is accompanied by a decrease in the partial pressure of oxygen which, turn, leads to a reduction in the driving pressure for oxygen transport and a corresponding fall in VO2max. The magnitude of this decline is around 5-7% per 1,000m(4) (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/altitude-training-effects.html#ref). An increase in altitude of as little as 600m has been shown to decrease the performance of cyclists in five-minute cycle power test by 5.9%(5) (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/altitude-training-effects.html#ref)."



There are 2 options when it comes to competing at altitude.

The first is a process of acclimatization. It generally involves at least 2 weeks of training and gradually building your body's ability to function. TFC doesn't have that luxury.

A second option is to compete within 24 hours of arrival. Studies suggest that the body won't develop signs of altitude sickness over that time frame but after 24 hours you get into the dehyrdation and other challenges.

Not sure what their travel schedule is like but hopefully they arrive after Tuesday @ 8pm. Otherwise, it could be ugly.

Pookie
04-01-2012, 07:10 PM
I'd worry less about altitude if I were them. Listening to Nick Dasovic on 1050 on the way home, they talked about the climate the players would be walking into. From early morning phone calls in the rooms, to intermittent power outages, to potentially purposely contaminated food to just the overall environment... seems like they will be walking into a bit of a storm, especially with the way that the first leg went down.

Might be good reason to stay there less than 24 hours with the added bonus of altitude adjustment.

Dv23
04-01-2012, 07:14 PM
Is there a link where I could listen to that interview?

J .
04-01-2012, 07:31 PM
0-3, horrible goal differential... Has any team made the playoffs going 0-4 to start the season? This is a worst case scenario start to the season so far especially if they lose to MTL. Pretty brutal stuff.

Oldtimer
04-01-2012, 08:03 PM
^ I think it was Columbus who lost a whole pile of games to start one season, then went on to make the playoffs.

Lennon
04-01-2012, 08:10 PM
Not sure why so many people are saying that we played well .. we created next to nothing in the first half and the few chances that we did have came after Silva & Avila came on. Worst game we've played all year IMO ..

iy12l
04-01-2012, 08:18 PM
Not sure why so many people are saying that we played well .. we created next to nothing in the first half and the few chances that we did have came after Silva & Avila came on. Worst game we've played all year IMO ..

That is why you don't want Dunfield anchoring the midfield. His back passes are useless and sometimes he passes it to the opponents, and i especially hate when he stops the attacking flow of the game! I remember I heard Johnson say the f word to Dunfield when Johnson was open on the wing with lots of space and instead Dunfield passed it back back to the defenders.

Oldtimer
04-01-2012, 08:28 PM
Sometimes a little perspective is in order:


L.A. is in crisis without Major League Soccer's reigning Defender of the Year, as Saturday night's 3-1 loss to the New England Revolution so graphically illustrated.

The Galaxy won the Supporters' Shield and MLS Cup titles last year for several reasons, but the biggest was how well they defended all over the field. They've shown little ability to do so without Gonzalez, bleeding goals during preseason and conceding 11 already in five competitive matches. L.A. needed 11 games to surrender 11 last year, and four of those came in the debacle at Real Salt Lake.

“What's different is that we're not scoring and we're not keeping the ball out of our nets,” said center back A.J. DeLaGarza, whose failure to deal with Kelyn Rowe on New England's 10th-minute opener started the Galaxy toward their third loss in four Home Depot Center matches this year. “On both sides of the ball, we’re not clicking. They had three crosses and they had three goals, so that’s unacceptable and is something that we’ve been working on in practice over the last two weeks, 'cause we know we haven’t done well in the first 3-4 games. But today, it didn’t pay off.”

The Galaxy was utterly, curiously listless against the Revs, showing none of the spirit and little of the advertised advances they've made in their game in the two weeks since their lone victory in five games, over D.C. United. The interim was supposed to correct the problems exploited by Toronto FC in the CONCACAF Champions League quarterfinal and by Real Salt Lake in the MLS opener.

http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/soccer/post/_/id/15600/galaxy-defense-is-no-joking-matter

Pookie
04-01-2012, 08:31 PM
Sorry dv23 can't find one. It was on Wheeler's post game show on Saturday. Guess they didn't archive it (or make it searchable).

Roogsy
04-01-2012, 09:02 PM
Some thoughts:

I agree with Roogsy that the defense is a negative that the current management should be judged on. I'm not sure whether that is really Winter, I think that Mariner was brought in as the MLS genius who knows the league, but he has failed to deliver in this very important area.

As far as JDG, I think Ensco's take is the most accurate one (not surprising, he has a good feel for ML$E politics). I don't think any manager in TFC history has had total freedom to do what they think fits. Certainly Preki wasn't allowed to get rid of DeRo when he wanted to, and I doubt that Winter has the freedom to write of ML$E's investment in JDG. Frankly, I expect JDG to be offered a new contract after this year in the $200k range, and he would be a decent enough player at that price.

At $200k, even if JSG's benched against half the MLS teams, his play against CONCACAF opposition is not just good, it's very good, and would make him worthwhile. He is a one-dimensional style player who only plays well against possession-oriented system, but when he does play against them he seems to do well. I've seen him almost be able to read the minds of Mexican opposition and be perfectly positioned to counter them. As far as direct-oriented MLS teams, he's a bust.

Winter himself seems to tactically do very well against possession oriented teams (the strategy against Santos was excellent), but seems lost against more direct playing teams. Hopefully Winter can adapt, but it's possible that, just like JDG, he's really playing in the wrong league. Anyhow, I will continue to give Winter more time, but he needs to broaden his potential strategies. That's what distinguishes a mediocre manager from a really good one.

I don't think the playoffs are a write-off, unless Frings is out a really long time. I do think that our CCL playoff run is at an end.

Agreed on all counts.

Roogsy
04-01-2012, 09:08 PM
Hmmmm

We are playing Montreal at 12 noon Saturday.
60 hours after the end of a massive game at altitude.
It'll probably take 12 hours door to door to get to Montreal.
It'll be the fifth game in 14 days.
It's a huge rivalry game for Montreal, probably their biggest game of the year.

It kills me to say this, but, objectively, we are unlikely to win next Saturday, and it's not reasonable to get upset, if we don't.


I agree with this also. But Montreal being a struggling expansion side might make things a little easier. We can squeak out of there with a draw. But that still leaves us 0-1-3 on the season (over 10% of the season if you can believe it) and the hole is gradually getting bigger. After Santos clean our clocks, the euphoria of the CCL will fade quickly and the struggles of a season started on our backheels will test the constitution of this team.

Rene Kingsriver
04-01-2012, 09:11 PM
Sometimes a little perspective is in order:



http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/soccer/post/_/id/15600/galaxy-defense-is-no-joking-matter

Please stop with the comparing to LA! for a start they won the Cup last year, we're 0-3 the Galaxy being almost as bad still makes us 0-3

Oldtimer
04-01-2012, 09:17 PM
Please stop with the comparing to LA! for a start they won the Cup last year, we're 0-3 the Galaxy being almost as bad still makes us 0-3

You are misunderstanding what I am comparing. I'm not comparing records (someone else did so earlier in this thread, but I'm not). It's the fact that the Galaxy's defense is overly reliant on one player, just like ours relies on one player who isn't even a defender to keep it in order. Crappy depth is a way of life in MLS. That's the perspective.

It still doesn't excuse our defense sucking so badly, though.

Roogsy
04-01-2012, 09:46 PM
You are misunderstanding what I am comparing. It's the fact that the Galaxy's defense is overly reliant on one player, just like ours relies on one player who isn't even a defender to keep it in order. Crappy depth is a way of life in MLS. That's the perspective.

It still doesn't excuse our defense sucking so badly, though.

I think the LA problems go beyond OG. Arenas pulled Becks in the last game. There appears to be some sense of complacency he's trying to shake out of the club because they have not been sharp at all, versus TFC nor with their other teams they've faced.

jloome
04-02-2012, 12:05 AM
To all you that don't know where Torreon is and think that altitude will be an issue, well look it up before you make comments
Torreon lies just over 1,000, just because Mexico city is high up in the clouds it doens't mean that the whole country is


Good point!

Cashcleaner
04-02-2012, 01:24 AM
Hmmmm

We are playing Montreal at 12 noon Saturday.
60 hours after the end of a massive game at altitude.
It'll probably take 12 hours door to door to get to Montreal.
It'll be the fifth game in 14 days.
It's a huge rivalry game for Montreal, probably their biggest game of the year.

It kills me to say this, but, objectively, we are unlikely to win next Saturday, and it's not reasonable to get upset, if we don't.


Oh wow - we're now making excuses for losses that haven't even taken place yet. Does no one see anything odd in that?

Sorry, ensco but Danger is right on this. We can't let ourselves slip into this attitude. It wouldn't be so bad if we had a couple wins in the bag going into this scenario, but we absolutely need a win ASAP - and that goes doubly against (fucking) Montreal. I completely agree that the deck is stacked against us for a win on Saturday, but it's not unreasonable in the least to be upset if that's how things play out. And it's not like we're up against Kansas City here with their 7 goals in 4 straight wins or New York and their 10 goals so far; we're playing (fucking) Montreal.

Roogsy
04-02-2012, 01:45 AM
I don't think Ensco is excusing them...he's just stating the circumstances. I think we all can sympathize with the situation the team is facing. Still...there are no excuses this year. The overall record this year must be judged with reasonably successful standards. None of this coddling BS fans forgave last year. If he goes 0-0-4 to start, he'd better go 12-9-9 the rest of the way. That's a 1.5 ppg clip, and it only gets harder the more points we drop at the start.

king dave
04-02-2012, 05:32 AM
I smell a town hall in the not so distant future.
That should right the ship.
KD.

ensco
04-02-2012, 05:34 AM
I completely agree that the deck is stacked against us for a win on Saturday, but it's not unreasonable in the least to be upset if that's how things play out.

This is kind of a "I have the biggest air conditioned sauna in the world" statement. g:D

It's not an attitude thing, I have every belief that the team will give it's all next Saturday.

I'm addressing the question of exactly when is it time to go Braveheart on Winter. Personally, I don't think it's after Saturday if we lose. The CCL schedule has totally screwed us up in MLS. Not all losing streaks are the same, I think the Leafs' swan dive has really gotten into some people's heads (not saying you are one of them).

But I'm not about to belabour the point!

London
04-02-2012, 06:09 AM
if they lose wed and then on saturday to L'pileofshit, then people will be looking for heads to roll

tfcleeds
04-02-2012, 08:33 AM
The schedule doesn't get any easier for us after these next couple of weeks. Playing the majority of our early season matches at home, and against weaker opposition at that. This was our best chance to accumulate much needed points. If we do manage to lose to Montreal at the Big Owe, I say that is ample grounds to start calling for Winter's head.

RealG-TFC
04-02-2012, 08:38 AM
Montreal plays on wednesday too.

Beach_Red
04-02-2012, 08:46 AM
The schedule doesn't get any easier for us after these next couple of weeks. Playing the majority of our early season matches at home, and against weaker opposition at that. This was our best chance to accumulate much needed points. If we do manage to lose to Montreal at the Big Owe, I say that is ample grounds to start calling for Winter's head.

If the game goes badly against Montreal and then the next one against Chivas also goes bad (we're all expecting the game in Mexico to go badly) then it's time to start making demands but maybe replacing Winter isn't what we should be calling for.

Maybe it's time to demand the team be run by the manager and that he actually be given the power to make all the decisions. G

Give TFC a president who answers to the board and doesn't have to go through Anselmi.

Chris Wren
04-02-2012, 09:10 AM
You have zero proof that Winter doesn't have the power to make decisions. I would guess you have zero idea of the decision making process at all. How could you? I challenge you to find one article detailing any Toronto GM having a decision challenged by Anselmi or Peddie. I'll take the actual facts rather than urban legend.

Oldtimer
04-02-2012, 09:12 AM
You have zero proof that Winter doesn't have the power to make decisions. I would guess you have zero idea of the decision making process at all. How could you? I challenge you to find one article detailing any Toronto GM having a decision challenged by Anselmi or Peddie. I'll take the actual facts rather than urban legend.

This is not urban legend. People with close connection to certain players have long detailed interference at the highest level. Some of those people are on this board.

If you want something in the traditional media, look up the Chris Cummins interview about a year after he left TFC. No current player or manager will go on the record to the traditional media as that will not only cost them their job, but could very well result in them being black-balled by every MLS club.

Cummins could be honest because he left the continent.

Roogsy
04-02-2012, 09:21 AM
Not surprisingly, I am sure we will feel better if we beat Montreal and the damage to the season is mitigated somewhat. It can happen. Montreal are still finding their way and should be ripe for the picking. And the tone on this board will change again. :lol:

And yes, I am not even considering getting a result on Wednesday.

Canary10
04-02-2012, 09:23 AM
I think it's worth remembering that until Winter came in, the biggest "must win" game we ever had at TFC was also the biggest loss on the road we ever had - the 5-0 loss against New York where a win would have gotten us into the playoffs. By comparison, Winter has yet to lose a true must win game, and we've had, what, three of them since he came? I think that says a lot about the team's preparation and the fact that they can play big games and get results, and speaks to the quality of the players we have right now.

I say that because I do think the next two games are must wins for our season. But if we don't get maximum points I don't think firing Winter makes any sense, and I also don't think a huge organizational shake-up will happen (whatever the current reporting structure is at MLSE). Drastic action in this case will mean player benchings, things of that nature.

ensco
04-02-2012, 09:30 AM
Re "actual facts" on who is calling the important shots: seriously?

All of JFJ, Colangelo, Burke, and WinterMariner chose to "accept" some of the coaches and executives they inherited. It happens here, but nowhere else. Someone will probably say they all proclaimed they wanted to keep those people, and I will choose to laugh at the absurdity of that claim.

Btw Ferguson has gone on the record several times to point out that a number of his decisions had to be confirmed at the board, and he has said there were things he wanted to do that we're not approved.

Derko
04-02-2012, 09:35 AM
That is why you don't want Dunfield anchoring the midfield. His back passes are useless and sometimes he passes it to the opponents, and i especially hate when he stops the attacking flow of the game! I remember I heard Johnson say the f word to Dunfield when Johnson was open on the wing with lots of space and instead Dunfield passed it back back to the defenders.

You mean just like JDG does, although JDG does go forward on very few occasions, and his passes are mainly lateral or losses possesion. At times (more often than not) JDG can play like an amateur not a professional DP mid-fielder. My opinion

gracos
04-02-2012, 09:40 AM
at we dont want to do is change the team, if we do we will bring in a new style and new players and be waiting even longer, Winter said 3 years, lets give him them, and see where we are afterwards