Post game: TFC vs Columbus

[Tyzer]

WOW its not only me... why can winter see they are hurting the team!!!
Harding and dunfield need to find another job!!

[Roogsy]

You have zero proof that Winter doesn't have the power to make decisions. I would guess you have zero idea of the decision making process at all. How could you? I challenge you to find one article detailing any Toronto GM having a decision challenged by Anselmi or Peddie. I'll take the actual facts rather than urban legend.

Those here know the kinds of communication I have internally at MLSE and I can tell you for certain that in the case of DeRo, Preki definitely wanted to get rid of him and he was not allowed by MLSE management. I can imagine the same could happen with JDG. There is some interference that happens but with this new management, I am not sure how much. Did Anselmi learn his lesson? Perhaps. We sure have seen a lot less of him lately, thankfully. But that might have more to do with the changes going on at MLSE than anything else.

[Chris Wren]

Was Preki the GM or was he the coach? Chris Cummins was the coach, not the GM. It's not uncommon for coaches to inherit players they don't want. They don't always get complete control. In regards to Winter there is no proof he isn't calling the shots. I know it's an irritant that actual fact be involved. In TFC's history there have been more than 100 players and I have never read any quote stating that Mo, Winter or whoever else wasn't in charge of the soccer related decisions. If anyone could provide those quotes, or any article detailing Anselmi's meddling in those decisions I'd appreciate it. I know people that say lots of stuff off the record, I find when they can be held accountable it's not always the same story.

[ManUtd4ever]

I find it difficult to fathom that Anselmi has interfered with any player personnel decisions since the current management regime was established.

If this team fails to achieve a modicum of success this season, then the fault lies with Winter, Mariner, and DeKlerk.

[Carts]

Not surprisingly, I am sure we will feel better if we beat Montreal and the damage to the season is mitigated somewhat. It can happen. Montreal are still finding their way and should be ripe for the picking. And the tone on this board will change again. :lol:

And yes, I am not even considering getting a result on Wednesday.

What about fan riot, stadium fire, all our lads get out safe - CONCACAF removes Santos from the competition??? ;)

[Beach_Red]

I find it difficult to fathom that Anselmi has interfered with any player personnel decisions since the current management regime was established.

If this team fails to achieve a modicum of success this season, then the fault lies with Winter, Mariner, and DeKlerk.

Winter was very upfront that he wanted to keep DeRo. He never said anything about JDG, but the team had the option to buy out his contract in the off season (twice), was it ever discussed? Who do you think would make the decision? Winter was barely here when two multi-million dollar DPs were signed - do you think he chose them both? And that tied up the three DP slots for pretty much the rest of Winter's contract with TFC.

Sure, it's possible Winter made all these decisions himself and this is exactky the team he wanted to put together. It's just unlikely.

[MartinUtd]

I find it difficult to fathom that Anselmi has interfered with any player personnel decisions since the current management regime was established.

If this team fails to achieve a modicum of success this season, then the fault lies with Winter, Mariner, and DeKlerk.


I wouldn't be surprised if Winter and Co wanted to dump JDG's contract but wasn't allowed. Beyond that the only real fuck up that comes to mind is the Nathan Stugis signing by Earl Cochrane that happened as they were negotiating Winter's contract. That was just minor in terms of salary cap effect and technically happened before they were signed on, but still a pretty egregious mistake.

[BayernTFC]

If the game goes badly against Montreal and then the next one against Chivas also goes bad (we're all expecting the game in Mexico to go badly) then it's time to start making demands but maybe replacing Winter isn't what we should be calling for.

Maybe it's time to demand the team be run by the manager and that he actually be given the power to make all the decisions. G

Give TFC a president who answers to the board and doesn't have to go through Anselmi.
This is an interesting post and these comments should probably start a new thread. TFC has a return match against Santos Laguna in the CCL semi-final on Wednesday. Why are some people getting ahead of themselves? I certainly think that TFC finds itself in a series of must win games now, but that was likely the case starting from the beginning of the season due to TFC's record over the years anyways and the type of promises made. Why not enjoy the moment and make comments based on what actually happens, when it happens? Does the team really need such distractions?

These comments aren't an attack directed at you Beach_Red. No one should misconstrue my statements as some kind of defense of Aron Winter or MLSE either, because they aren't. I think it's a legitimate question to ask what are supporters of a team entitled to? What demands should fans make? How effective have previous demands been? Should supporters really be involved in team management decisions? Wouldn't fan involvement at that level reduce the accountability of management? Wouldn't fan interference in the management of the team be just as detrimental as interference by ownership or certain influential individuals?

I understand the frustration with the role Tom Anselmi plays within the organization. I know I'm not the only one to see the parallels between Anselmi's place inside the structure of TFC and MLS' control over individual teams? Player contracts are held by the league and teams must get approval for signings with the league first, no? Was Aron Winter not given control over personnel decisions at TFC? How much blame should be assigned to Paul Mariner if a player doesn't pan out? Does Tom Anselmi actually interfere and, if so, how much? Shouldn't the structure of an organization be clear and everyone's role within it be solidly defined? Should fans who dislike the way MLSE operates also ask for a change in the way MLS operates?

[BayernTFC]

I wouldn't be surprised if Winter and Co wanted to dump JDG's contract but wasn't allowed.
Is Winter forced to start JDG too? By whom? Is upper management interfering in squad selection as well? Is Winter worried that if he doesn't use Julian and TFC performs poorly, that his choices will be questioned and he'll be blamed? Didn't Bruce Arena just bench David Beckham to make a point? Is it not possible that Winter likes what JDG brings to the squad and has made conscious decisions all along?

[Red Rat]

ok I vote for BayernTFC to be the "Official Moderator" for the Game thread
all in favour say neai
all opposed say yeaih

I think is like that!

[jabbronies]

Is Winter forced to start JDG too? By whom? Is upper management interfering in squad selection as well? Is Winter worried that if he doesn't use Julian and TFC performs poorly, that his choices will be questioned and he'll be blamed? Didn't Bruce Arena just bench David Beckham to make a point? Is it not possible that Winter likes what JDG brings to the squad and has made conscious decisions all along?

I doubt they are forced to start JDG, I'm sure they do it on their own. And to be honest, why wouldn't they start him?
Not taking his contract into the equation - Who on the team is better than him at what his position requires?

[BayernTFC]

ok I vote for BayernTFC to be the "Official Moderator" for the Game thread

LOL. I'm not trying to be a moderator here. I am only trying to stoke discussion. I guess the talk over the Columbus match has run its course anyways. I actually thought that Beach_Red's comments would be a good place to start debate over the issues she mentioned.

[Red Rat]

LOL. I'm not trying to be a moderator here. I am only trying to stoke discussion. I guess the talk over the Columbus match has run its course anyways. I actually thought that Beach_Red's comments would be a good place to start debate over the issues she mentioned.
Too late!
You have been mod

[BayernTFC]

I doubt they are forced to start JDG, I'm sure they do it on their own. And to be honest, why wouldn't they start him?
Not taking his contract into the equation - Who on the team is better than him at what his position requires?
I don't think Winter is forced to start JDG either. Winter came to TFC stating he was given such responsibilities. Winter has always said he has control over personnel decisions. That's the role of a coach. If Winter accepts interference from upper management, then he is still ultimately responsible for his team. Without taking contract size into account, Torsten Frings is better. Without a doubt.

[BayernTFC]

Too late!
You have been mod

Okay then. Would it be possible to have Columbus matchday thread moderator replace my Registered User title, please? g:D

[Oldtimer]

Was Preki the GM or was he the coach? Chris Cummins was the coach, not the GM. It's not uncommon for coaches to inherit players they don't want. They don't always get complete control. In regards to Winter there is no proof he isn't calling the shots. I know it's an irritant that actual fact be involved. In TFC's history there have been more than 100 players and I have never read any quote stating that Mo, Winter or whoever else wasn't in charge of the soccer related decisions. If anyone could provide those quotes, or any article detailing Anselmi's meddling in those decisions I'd appreciate it. I know people that say lots of stuff off the record, I find when they can be held accountable it's not always the same story.

Chris, it's time to back down on this one. If you personally knew some of the people on this board (including some who are journalists but can't print half of what they know), you wouldn't be making these demands for published evidence. There are enough insiders here to give us a good idea what's going on, and believe me they can't publish a lot on the inside politics. They aren't random schmucks just speculating.

I know what you are saying about the GM/coach dynamic, and it applies in some places, but ML$E doesn't run their teams like any normal sane organization.

In Preki's case, Anselmi was directly involved in some things, even though Mo was the GM.

[Oldtimer]

I doubt they are forced to start JDG, I'm sure they do it on their own. And to be honest, why wouldn't they start him?
Not taking his contract into the equation - Who on the team is better than him at what his position requires?

If they weren't forced to keep him, they would probably get a DP centre-back. Being forced to keep him, it makes sense to play him.

I think Winter/Mariner value him, but not at a DP level.

[BayernTFC]

If they weren't forced to keep him, they would probably get a DP centre-back. Being forced to keep him, it makes sense to play him.

I think Winter/Mariner value him, but not at a DP level.
So, what if the guy Winter/Mariner brought in to be DP CB turned out like the Geovanny Caicedo situation? Doesn't the ability to blame JDG's contract provide some decent cover? Dalton McGuinty made a career from blaming Mike Harris/Ernie Eves. Does the CB TFC is looking for need to be a DP? Would TFC have been able to find a quality centerback if it wasn't handcuffed by the Dicoy Williams and Adrian Cann contracts and the fact that MLS doesn't allow salary cap exemptions for injuries? Maybe time will show that Winter/Mariner have found a solution in Aceval, Emory or both? How will Maund perform for TFC going forward this season or in the future?

I actually thought the signing of Danny Koevermans was an astute move. I feel Danny has brought many of the things that the TFC offense had been lacking. There's been lots of criticism of Danny. I think he has been doing his job and performing well. He's certainly getting chances even though TFC is producing too few scoring opportunities in most games this season. Danny's just not potting goals at the moment and I don't buy the crap about him being out of shape.

[J .]

There is no excuse for the horrible MLS start. Two home matches and zero points is far from good enough. We could be out of playoff contention before months end.

The standings dont lie, right now we are the worst team in the league.

[Roogsy]

There is no excuse for the horrible MLS start. Two home matches and zero points is far from good enough. We could be out of playoff contention before months end.

The standings dont lie, right now we are the worst team in the league.

But one of the best in CONCACAF!

How is that for a contradiction! :lol:

[ag futbol]

In the grand scheme of things, how much of a legitimate gripe is being forced to keep JDG anyway? We have two DP's on large contracts and resources that put most MLS clubs to shame. I really don't see it as a sticking point.

[MartinUtd]

Is Winter forced to start JDG too? By whom? Is upper management interfering in squad selection as well? Is Winter worried that if he doesn't use Julian and TFC performs poorly, that his choices will be questioned and he'll be blamed? Didn't Bruce Arena just bench David Beckham to make a point? Is it not possible that Winter likes what JDG brings to the squad and has made conscious decisions all along?

All I'm saying is that Winter has made off the cuff comments about JDG's contract in the past so there's no need for the straw man arguments.

[Beach_Red]

All I was saying is that I don't think there's much point in calling for Winter to be replaced. This is pretty much the team we will have for the rest of this season, so unless people think a different coach would be able to get fewer errors out of this line-up, it's probably better to go for consistency this season. It's unlikely that Winter will be repaced while still under contract, unless MLSE thought firing him was something that would placate the fans.

[BayernTFC]

All I'm saying is that Winter has made off the cuff comments about JDG's contract in the past so there's no need for the straw man arguments.

Fair enough. I'm assuming you are referring to my comments as "straw man arguments" and not Winter's, no? We can all play the game of ifs and buts, however, where does that lead us? There are limitations placed on all squads. Winter's job is to face the ones he's dealing with. Wouldn't we all like to be dealt a pair of aces?

[Chris Wren]

I'm simply asking for evidence to back up a pretty bold statement. I have never read ex Raptor players make that statement, or coaches, or Rob Babcock or Leaf players or coaches, or GM's. I can't find where JFJ supposedly said it. Not every ex MLSE has left under the best circumstances, covering hundreds of people. There have been grievances, but that is one I haven't read. You may know people who know people, but I can only go on what is on record. Unless one is handing over physical evidence under the condition of anonymity I don't put a lot of stock in people who won't go on record. Until someone reputable makes such a claim publicly, I'm going to assume this is Winter's team and hold him accountable for it.

[BayernTFC]

All I was saying is that I don't think there's much point in calling for Winter to be replaced. I understand. I felt that it was unusual for some to start a discussion about Aron Winter's dismissal (potentially?) with the biggest game in TFC's history so close at hand. There isn't anything wrong with discussing it now if you and/or others want to.


This is pretty much the team we will have for the rest of this season, so unless people think a different coach would be able to get fewer errors out of this line-up, it's probably better to go for consistency this season. It's unlikely that Winter will be repaced while still under contract, unless MLSE thought firing him was something that would placate the fans.
Is TFC unlikely to make any moves during the Summer Transfer Window? Replacing a coach mid stream can be tricky. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think TFC's history makes the situation that much more complicated. I don't have the answers to those questions and I don't know what MLSE plans to do. Maybe this topic will be heating up soon?

[ag futbol]

Not that I'm suggesting it's warranted - but I don't think firing Winter is even an option until the end of this year.

MLSE with their elaborate consulting process and the whole nine yards, has painted themselves into a corner. To double back on their plan before he gets a full year to make good or fall on his face makes the people who devised the plan in the first place look bad, which in corporate terms is what these cunts will be avoiding at all costs.

It's just like when everyone called for Johnston to be fired after 5-0 @ NY. No matter how much it was warranted, it wasn't going to happen because it would have made Anselmi look bad for extending his contract a few months earlier. As mentioned above, I don't think Winter has done enough to even remotely consider this, but from MLSE's perspective it's not even an option ... no matter how bad things get.

[Yohan]

In the grand scheme of things, how much of a legitimate gripe is being forced to keep JDG anyway? We have two DP's on large contracts and resources that put most MLS clubs to shame. I really don't see it as a sticking point.

it's not that MLSE can't afford DP contracts. it's trying to build squad with 3 DPs that puts a severe hurt on a team's ability to build a squad under the salary cap

JDG's cap hit could bring in an MLS starter and a good depth player. JDG isn't playing about same as an MLS starter at DM

[Stouffville_RPB]

Winter isn't going anywhere. They basically handed the keys to the building when he got here by allowing him to oversee everything at the club starting with an expanded academy.

MLSE brought Winter over not just for first team success but to show them how to build/develop talent and a club like they do in Europe. They won't shuffle him out the door even before he's had a few seasons.

Has TFC failed in the season so far this season...yes but they have also set a new standard for Canadian teams in international competitions. I attribute a good portion of that to Winter.

TFC is also much more entertaining to watch now than the season before he arrived. Look throughout our squad and it is probably the most naturally gifted squad we've had top to bottom. People are quick to bash Winter but I'd rather see a team of Koevermans, Frings, Ecks, Johnson, Soolsma etc. than a team of Dan Gargan's and Amadou Sanyang's.

[tfcleeds]

Exactly...it's the most talented squad we've ever had, which makes missing the playoffs for the 6th straight year inexcusable. If we don't gain maximum points over our next two games, it makes the mountain we have to climb all the higher. The season isn't over by any means, but the schedule isn't going to get easier after this. I don't know how much of a distraction the CCL is proving to be for the players, but Winter simply has to get them playing at the level we've been seeing from them in the CCL in the league also.

[ManUtd4ever]

The only issue I've had with this team so far this season (for the most part) is their inability to finish in the offensive third of the pitch, which is perplexing, because they had no trouble scoring goals in league play with this roster after the summer transfer window last season.

[ag futbol]

it's not that MLSE can't afford DP contracts. it's trying to build squad with 3 DPs that puts a severe hurt on a team's ability to build a squad under the salary cap

JDG's cap hit could bring in an MLS starter and a good depth player. JDG isn't playing about same as an MLS starter at DM
It's a constraint, but not fatal. There are lots of DP's out there that teams aren't getting good value / money on.

I expect that we can still be successful in spite of one bad contract.

[Oldtimer]

I love how after 3 losses in a 34 game season, the board melts down.

[Yohan]

It's a constraint, but not fatal. There are lots of DP's out there that teams aren't getting good value / money on.

I expect that we can still be successful in spite of one bad contract.
I agree TFC should have enough depth to win despite JDG, but if there was no JDG, TFC would have better quality players than Harden and Dunfield (for those people that rag on them, lol)

A lot of teams with bad DPs also don't have 3 DPs on their team. 3 DPs really do put a big hamper on a how team operates in the transfer market

[DoubleUp]

I dont know because When I look at teams like Vancouver, LA, New york, Seattle..............These teams have 4 players with a market value of 1million plus, and an overall team value that exceeds ours by another million plus, but from what I gather we do tend to overpay for player services.

[__wowza]

I love how after 3 losses in a 34 game season, the board melts down.

welcome to the boards and enjoy your stay.
i mentioned it previously, no one gave us a chance to make it out of the group stage, to beat LA, or to even tie santos (most of the comments i read here were akin to "please god just don't let us lose 7-1"). next thing i read is "inexcusable" this and "fire winter" that over a tie we expected to lose. if we drop the match against santos, whatever, it's not like it's sweetening anyones mood. most of what i've read so far about the team is a reflection of our league play anyways.

if you told me we'd start this season dropping 3 games, i'd be with the bulk of you saying it's more of the same, but hope we bounce back. if you told me we'd be the only MLS team in the CCL right now and a win/2-2+ tie away from a final berth in the fucking champions league.. i wouldn't have believed you. until then, excuse me but..

COME ON YOU REDS!!

[Roogsy]

1 thread and 10 pages is a meltdown?

Come on guys! Talk about weak-hearted! :lol:

[ensco]

I'm simply asking for evidence to back up a pretty bold statement. I have never read ex Raptor players make that statement, or coaches, or Rob Babcock or Leaf players or coaches, or GM's. I can't find where JFJ supposedly said it. Not every ex MLSE has left under the best circumstances, covering hundreds of people. There have been grievances, but that is one I haven't read. You may know people who know people, but I can only go on what is on record. Unless one is handing over physical evidence under the condition of anonymity I don't put a lot of stock in people who won't go on record. Until someone reputable makes such a claim publicly, I'm going to assume this is Winter's team and hold him accountable for it.

I don't think you actually tried. Try googling "John Ferguson MLSE". This isn't hard to find, it's from six days ago.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/david-shoalts/burkes-rule-indomitable-despite-misery-in-leafs-nation/article2383626/?service=mobile

[Beach_Red]

I don't think you actually tried. Try googling "John Ferguson MLSE". This isn't hard to find, it's from six days ago.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/david-shoalts/burkes-rule-indomitable-despite-misery-in-leafs-nation/article2383626/?service=mobile

Interesting article. Luckily TFC probably fly too far below the radar at MLSE for there to be too much meddling (the comment about hiring the inexperienced GM so the higher ups could more easily influence him might say something about TFC's first few years) but it would be interesting to know what approval is actually needed for DP signings and contract buyouts, but all we ever get is the same old line about the GM being in complete control.

Dictatorships are tough - you always want Louis XIV but you usually get Louis XVI.

[J .]

But one of the best in CONCACAF!

How is that for a contradiction! :lol:


It is pretty shocking really we made it this far in CONCACAF which begs the question why isnt the team playing better on a regular basis?

However, even with the CCL record the fact is we have only won a game so far this year.

The team really could be out of it by months end and that is unacceptable, especially with 2 home games already in the bag.

There are two more home matches this month. With it being unlikely we will win vs RSL away, it makes the limpact match all that more vital while the Chivas and Chicago home games could be a killer if we drop those points too. If they play like they have so far in the first three matches TFC possibly could go winless.

2009 is a cautionary tale about dropping points at home. History is not on our side at this point.

[jazzy]

You mean just like JDG does, although JDG does go forward on very few occasions, and his passes are mainly lateral or losses possesion. At times (more often than not) JDG can play like an amateur not a professional DP mid-fielder. My opinion

this is still a HUGE problem....that is a wart, and should be removed, our rebuild unfortunately can't really happen until JDG is gone....and we all know it.

[jazzy]

we give Winter 2 extra years, buy out JDG's contract, bench Koeverman's sit Dunfield,.look for extreme effort and enthusiasm and reward the same......work our youngster's to death....until they sink or swim..........(ban Anselmi from the grounds), don't really mind the guy, but stay away from our soccer team.....

[ensco]

Interesting article. Luckily TFC probably fly too far below the radar at MLSE for there to be too much meddling (the comment about hiring the inexperienced GM so the higher ups could more easily influence him might say something about TFC's first few years) but it would be interesting to know what approval is actually needed for DP signings and contract buyouts, but all we ever get is the same old line about the GM being in complete control.

Dictatorships are tough - you always want Louis XIV but you usually get Louis XVI.

As I know you know, it's not just the things they "approve" or "don't approve", that's just the tip of the iceberg .... it's just culturally toxic to have a setup like this, it poisons everything.

Love the Louis XIV/XVI reference btw. Quatorze had a great line: “It is legal because I wish it.”

[Canary10]

As I know you know, it's not just the things they "approve" or "don't approve", that's just the tip of the iceberg .... it's just culturally toxic to have a setup like this, it poisons everything.

Love the Louis XIV/XVI reference btw. Quatorze had a great line: “It is legal because I wish it.”


Apparently Winter was making a presentation to the MLSE Board of Directors the day before the home game against Santos Laguna last week. De Klerk had to take over the practice that day. Some TFC reporters were criticizing Winter for not being there before an important game; pretty sure being at that presentation wasn't his choice.....that article about Ferguson came out the same day or the day before I think. Those reporters should have read it before taking jabs at Winter.

[Chris Wren]

ensco, what am I missing? I linked on to that article and it was about Brian Burke, who runs the team, having absolute authority. That's exactly my point I googled John Ferguson Jr. MLSE and found no articles where he discusses having a board, Peddie or Anselmi meddle in his decisions.

[TFC07]

When does JDG contract expire?

[ensco]

ensco, what am I missing? I linked on to that article and it was about Brian Burke, who runs the team, having absolute authority. That's exactly my point I googled John Ferguson Jr. MLSE and found no articles where he discusses having a board, Peddie or Anselmi meddle in his decisions.

Chris, push the "continue reading" button and you'll see this:

A big reason Burke has so much power, aside from being in a tremendous negotiating position when MLSE made it no secret he was the man it wanted, is that the company tried the corporate way and also found no success. Burke’s predecessor, John Ferguson, was far more obligated to the MLSE board of directors, sometimes to the detriment of the team.

Contractually, Ferguson says, he only had to clear a coaching change with the board of directors. But as a 36-year-old rookie GM in 2003, the reality was that then-president Richard Peddie and the board had much more control over Ferguson than they do over Burke.
“I don’t want it to sound like I’m complaining but it was not the optimum way,” Ferguson said of his tenure.

Even though Ferguson was technically on his own, there were times the corporate oversight got in the way. Such as at the trade deadline one year when he was required to make a presentation to the board at noon on deadline day, three hours before the 3 p.m. deadline. Or another year when he had to make his annual state-of-the-hockey-department address one day before the NHL free-agent period began, simply because June 30 was the end of the MLSE fiscal year and that was when the meeting was scheduled.

There were problems with player contracts, too. Ferguson said he could have signed goaltender Ed Belfour to a cheaper contract in 2005 following the NHL lockout but the MLSE directors balked. Then they changed their minds close to the July 1 free-agent period but it cost more money – a two-year deal that was eventually bought out in 2006 – to keep Belfour from testing the open market.

[Thomas]

Good to see that you are feeling optimistic!


It is pretty shocking really we made it this far in CONCACAF which begs the question why isnt the team playing better on a regular basis?

However, even with the CCL record the fact is we have only won a game so far this year.

The team really could be out of it by months end and that is unacceptable, especially with 2 home games already in the bag.

There are two more home matches this month. With it being unlikely we will win vs RSL away, it makes the limpact match all that more vital while the Chivas and Chicago home games could be a killer if we drop those points too. If they play like they have so far in the first three matches TFC possibly could go winless.

2009 is a cautionary tale about dropping points at home. History is not on our side at this point.

[Abou Sky]

I think soccer, more than any other sport has this wierd element of luck to it.

We haven't been able to close the deal, sometimes the ball is spinning odd when it hits your boot and doesn't do what you want it to.

Sometimes you fumble a half step and get stripped of the ball at the wrong time.

This happens to THE BEST players in the world, 'critical luck' or a lack of it was why we lost to Columbus.

'critical luck' will be needed to win against SL.

You can't hang a team/coach/player based on a few games.

We could win MTL 8-1 and get our GD back.

This is soccer and fuck do I love it!

COME ON YOU REEEDDDS!!!

[J .]

Good to see that you are feeling optimistic!

I think Im being realistic. How many more losses before its cause to be a concern? Like I said, April is becoming a vital month and points need to be earned or the summer months will generate a lot less optimism and a lot more empty seats.

Critical luck didnt cost us in our losses. 0-3 isnt luck. It shows your place in the leagues pecking order because the standings dont lie. Lets hope a different TFC shows up in MLS in April Im sure we can all agree on that. History says they probably wont but success in CCL says they could.

[ryan]

I love how after 3 losses in a 34 game season, the board melts down.

But it's almost 10% of our games!!@!@!@!!

But 2 were at home!@!!@!#!#@!!

But we'll have to never lose again at home to make it now!!!@!@:!@!@! (apparently we can't win on the road, but somehow we goto the CCL semi's?)


I want a result in our next MLS match, not for the points, but for the nonsense to slow down around here.

[Stouffville_RPB]

Exactly...it's the most talented squad we've ever had, which makes missing the playoffs for the 6th straight year inexcusable. If we don't gain maximum points over our next two games, it makes the mountain we have to climb all the higher. The season isn't over by any means, but the schedule isn't going to get easier after this. I don't know how much of a distraction the CCL is proving to be for the players, but Winter simply has to get them playing at the level we've been seeing from them in the CCL in the league also.

Success in two competitions simultaneously is near impossible with the roster restrictions in MLS. And when you are close to the title in one you go for it. We are 3 games into a 34 game schedule in a competition that runs for another 8 months. You don't crown champions in the first month of a season in any league.

(not saying this last part about you leeds just in general)

I find it funny that the pre-Columbus thread had everyone saying to play all the reserves + Koevermans because they didn't care about the match and would rather rest players for Wednesday. Then the post match thread ripping the team for not getting a result.


The only issue I've had with this team so far this season (for the most part) is their inability to finish in the offensive third of the pitch, which is perplexing, because they had no trouble scoring goals in league play with this roster after the summer transfer window last season.

For the most part I would agree here. We aren't as efficient in the final third as we were the 2nd half of last season. I don't think we are playing to Koevermans strengths right now. There are a lot of long, high balls being played to him right now and I don't think his strength is up in the air. Which is why we are seeing Ryan Johnson have so much success right now. Koevermans needs more balls at his feet.

[Chris Wren]

ensco, thanks for helping me with that link. I'll concede that JFJ was asked to submit budgets, which doesn't seem too odd to me. He was a GM with no experience. I don't see where his actual decisions were challenged. Unless one is an owner/GM there is going to be someone to answer to. It was his team complete with several strange no trade clauses. That article doesn't do anything to convince me that Winter doesn't have full authority over TFC.

[Chris Wren]

Anyone who thinks 0-3 is not a big deal is sleeping at the wheel. The upcoming game in Montreal is critical. 0-4 means we have to go 4-0 just to start over. It can't happen.

[__wowza]

Success in two competitions simultaneously is near impossible with the roster restrictions in MLS. And when you are close to the title in one you go for it. We are 3 games into a 34 game schedule in a competition that runs for another 8 months. You don't crown champions in the first month of a season in any league.

i'd like to point out that when RSL were in the champions league they took 12 points in their first 5 games of the season.
i'd also like to clarify that i agree with you wholeheartedly on that last part, i just didn't want to withhold that information because it didn't suit my argument.

[spark]

ensco, thanks for helping me with that link. I'll concede that JFJ was asked to submit budgets, which doesn't seem too odd to me. He was a GM with no experience. I don't see where his actual decisions were challenged. Unless one is an owner/GM there is going to be someone to answer to. It was his team complete with several strange no trade clauses. That article doesn't do anything to convince me that Winter doesn't have full authority over TFC.

Can you provide an article that says he does?

[Chris Wren]

Spark, I don't want toplay that game. I don't have a link to tell you water is wet, I guess we can't confirm it. My point is that in roughly 15 years I have never read that Peddie or Anselmi are some sort of puppet GM. Guys like Pat Quinn never said that, or a coach who was pissed he was fired like Sam Mitchell, no ex player who could profit off such information. JFJ is saying he had to present things to present things to a board, but he doesn't say they ever told him 'no' on anything. No TFC player, past or present, has ever said that in a public forum, which is the only place that counts. I'll give Winter credit when we turn it around too, I don't think we're done yet. Enough said.

[Roogsy]

Anyone who thinks 0-3 is not a big deal is sleeping at the wheel. The upcoming game in Montreal is critical. 0-4 means we have to go 4-0 just to start over. It can't happen.


For some it's about results. For others it's about how much they drink and how fun it is at the games. To each their own I guess.

[Beach_Red]

Quinn, Dryden and the MLSE board of directors were a soap opera for years with different factions fighting for control. Do you think the Leafs have the same management structure as the Red Wings? Why did Burke insist on being president as well as GM and not have to answer to anyone but the board? A very different role than JFJ had.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter because it is what it is and Winter needs to win under the circumstances he's got.

[Jack]

For some it's about results. For others it's about how much they drink and how fun it is at the games. To each their own I guess.
You mean you can't do both? How is caring about results mutually exclusive to having a few drinks and enjoying the games?

[Roogsy]

You mean you can't do both? How is caring about results mutually exclusive to having a few drinks and enjoying the games?

The statement is not meant to be mutually exclusive but to point out where people's priorities lie.

[Jack]

But my point is, having a one as a priority doesn't exclude the other. For example, you can put a priority on getting to bed on time every night and also put a priority on having clean shoes. They don't really depend on one another. Enjoying yourself at the game with friends and having a few drinks doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not you demand results from your team. There is always that moment of hope when the game is on, where you are arm in arm with your friends, singing and chanting for them to win. That is enjoyable. If they don't get the results, then you can, of course, pressure them, boo them or what have you.

Anyway, not a big deal, it just seemed like you're forcing a relationship between two points that aren't truly related. One doesn't preclude the other, though there are those who place less emphasis on one or the other of your points. Just like me, for example. I go to bed late and my shoes are dirty g:D

[ensco]

You know what's the one thing that unifies the various points being debated in this thread? Being a team that players want to play for. I believe those are the teams that have players that play both attractive and winning football.

Are we a team that players who have a choice want to play for?

[Oldtimer]

No TFC player, past or present, has ever said that in a public forum, which is the only place that counts.

The truth is not just what is on the record. However, if you choose to ignore other valid sources, then so be it. Just don't expect people in the know to agree with you.

[ryan]

You know what's the one thing that unifies the various points being debated in this thread? Being a team that players want to play for. I believe those are the teams that have players that play both attractive and winning football.

Are we a team that players who have a choice want to play for?

I think we're becoming one if we aren't already. This team has great support for such poor results, with great results it would be even better. The management is trying to make us as professional as they can be, I think that's very attractive to players...especially in a league still trying to find it's footing. Our system is geared towards skill, creativity and attractive football. I think players would prefer that than the physical direct play usually employed by clubs so far. I think that physical direct play has been a deterrent to players considering MLS as an option, and I think players who have decided to come and left within a 1-2 year span have decided to because of that as well.

I do believe that eventually MLS will transition into a more skill based league, especially if they continue to recruit their players from the South. I think in the end, should TFC continue on it's path, we will get our wins eventually and become a very strong club in the future. I think the teams that stick with the physical play will eventually begin to suffer as teams like TFC grow with a skill based system starting from the academy up. Our club will become more cohesive and in sync as the games, months, seasons continue. I think we're seeing now that you can't turn a physical direct side into a skill possession team in a short period of time, there are growing pains, but we're going to be ahead of the curve and look back at this and be glad we went through it now like RSL had to do.


So to give a more direct answer to your question and sum up what I believe is happening, yes I think Toronto is a choice destination for players. Fans, city, system are all seemingly an attractive package from what I see. We also have a pretty nice pitch and that's important to players as well. No fake shit.

[Roogsy]

But my point is, having a one as a priority doesn't exclude the other. For example, you can put a priority on getting to bed on time every night and also put a priority on having clean shoes. They don't really depend on one another. Enjoying yourself at the game with friends and having a few drinks doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not you demand results from your team. There is always that moment of hope when the game is on, where you are arm in arm with your friends, singing and chanting for them to win. That is enjoyable. If they don't get the results, then you can, of course, pressure them, boo them or what have you.

Anyway, not a big deal, it just seemed like you're forcing a relationship between two points that aren't truly related. One doesn't preclude the other, though there are those who place less emphasis on one or the other of your points. Just like me, for example. I go to bed late and my shoes are dirty g:D

This isn't about doing two things at once Jack. I can pat my head and chew gum at the same time as well and neither has a priority. My statement was more a reference to the tendency of some to dismiss the facts and reality of the team because it gets in the way of the good time. I almost feel like I am being spoken to by Stephen Colbert's character on TV and his disdain for truth and his preference for "truthiness". The truth is I don't come on this board to discuss whether I had a great time at the game. To me that comes from the results, not whether I've had overly expensive drinks at the stadium.

As for your examples about prioritizing, sorry bro but I don't see the logic there at all. You may not realize it but you do prioritize one action over another, depending on the circumstance. If you're going to bed, putting on clean shoes takes a backseat if it is at all considered. And if you're going out, putting on clean shoes takes a priority over going to bed which gets left until later. It is the immediate demands of circumstance that helps you prioritize and make one activity more important than another, but you do make one a priority over the other, make no mistake.

Much the same here, the cirucmstance depends on what the purpose of being a TFC fan is for us. For some of us, it's about pride in our city and having a winning team. For others, it's about having another venue to drink and be merry. I don't begrudge a person choosing one over the other, but don't shit in my mouth and call it a chocolate bar. It's deluded to believe that you can make both a priority at the same time. Much like in your example about enjoying good times at a game despite a poor result, by default that makes the result secondary to the good time. A person may choose to do that for whatever reason (to not ruin the experience, to avoid becoming depressed over a poor result or poor team) but the shift, while conscious or not is there, in order to enjoy the experience, you've decided to make it about the good time with friends. Fair enough. But the conclusion is that the result therefore takes 2nd place.

But some of us aren't built that way that's all. A different psychological profile perhaps but sports to me is about results and I derive the enjoyment from seeing success and failure annoys me, especially if I am paying for it. Drinking and merriment...well, I enjoy it at games but it's a far 2nd place and will always remain so.

[Jack]

I think we agree, I was just nit-picking your post for fun.

[Roogsy]

:lol:

My friends do that.

They make wild, incredible, provocative statements and when I angrily disagree they say:

PROVE IT.


I think they do it ito keep my busy for a while so they can mock me later...

[Yohan]

:lol:

My friends do that.

They make wild, incredible, provocative statements and when I angrily disagree they say:

PROVE IT.


I think they do it ito keep my busy for a while so they can mock me later...
surely you are aware that picking on Roogsy and get him all riled up is a wholesome fun for the entire family ;)

[Roogsy]

:lol:


Ah...you all laugh at my expense. Bastards.

[Jack]

Hey, it worked. I got a semi-wall of text from him g:D

[ensco]

ensco, thanks for helping me with that link. I'll concede that JFJ was asked to submit budgets, which doesn't seem too odd to me. He was a GM with no experience. I don't see where his actual decisions were challenged. Unless one is an owner/GM there is going to be someone to answer to. It was his team complete with several strange no trade clauses. That article doesn't do anything to convince me that Winter doesn't have full authority over TFC.

Well, we're reading the same thing and seeing it differently.

Chris, I don't know if you were around here in 2009 and 2010, but if you were, I doubt you'd be so strident about insisting that interference by MLSE in TFC's on field ops is some sort of a fantasy or conspiracy theory. It wasn't Anselmi really, it was Beirne and Cochrane who were being fingered (and yes, we know, Cochrane is in the soccer ops department, but would he be there if Anselmi didn't insist?). We're not the only club in the world with this problem, far from it, but I just wouldn't take the position that it's ridiculous to assert that it happened. I don't want to identify the members involved who posted the details, they can do that for themselves, or perhaps its searchable ... but it was multiple people here, known to others, with personal links to the team, the broadcasters, the CSA and/or the OSA.

[Chubbs]

The best highlight from this game isn't even in any of the packages, but it was easily when one of the columbus players was chasing after a ball with morgan around the 20th minute and went straight over the ad boards after running out of touch... Wheres the clip? Havent laughed that hard in a while!

[tfcleeds]

Success in two competitions simultaneously is near impossible with the roster restrictions in MLS. And when you are close to the title in one you go for it. We are 3 games into a 34 game schedule in a competition that runs for another 8 months. You don't crown champions in the first month of a season in any league. And I wholeheartedly agree that it's way too early to throw in the towel just three games in. But I also think that if we somehow don't manage to get points in our next two games (against an expansion team and arguably the worst team in the Western Conference), alarm bells should definitely be ringing. We were supposed to turn the corner this year (and we may still) but losing to a shitty Columbus team at home isn't the greatest way of signalling we're going to achieve that. If we get results against Montreal and Chivas we can turn this around. But if we don't, and in September we find ourselves in a battle for the playoffs, and having to depend on other results, we'll sure be rueing those missed points.

[Stouffville_RPB]

And I wholeheartedly agree that it's way too early to throw in the towel just three games in. But I also think that if we somehow don't manage to get points in our next two games (against an expansion team and arguably the worst team in the Western Conference), alarm bells should definitely be ringing. We were supposed to turn the corner this year (and we may still) but losing to a shitty Columbus team at home isn't the greatest way of signalling we're going to achieve that. If we get results against Montreal and Chivas we can turn this around. But if we don't, and in September we find ourselves in a battle for the playoffs, and having to depend on other results, we'll sure be rueing those missed points.

Oh I'm not happy with 0 points either. Once the CCL is over we have to kick it up a notch in the league.

Going into both the San Jose and Columbus games I felt that TFC could and should win those games. To get nothing was disappointing for me too but we have been successful in the premier club competition in this region. I agree with you that we need to come out strong and get something out of our next two MLS matches though. No points after 5 matches with 4 of them against SJ, Crew, Mtl and Chivas would be a very poor start.

[__wowza]

:lol:

My friends do that.

They make wild, incredible, provocative statements and when I angrily disagree they say:

PROVE IT.

roogsy, remind them that the burden of proof relies on the accuser, not the accused. my favourite example:


1: i have a baseball
2: do you really?
1: yes!
2: can i see it?
1: sure!

1: i have a baseball
2: do you really?
1: yes!
2: can i see it?
1: YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT I DON'T HAVE A BASEBALL!!

[Roogsy]

roogsy, remind them that the burden of proof relies on the accuser, not the accused. my favourite example:


1: i have a baseball
2: do you really?
1: yes!
2: can i see it?
1: sure!

1: i have a baseball
2: do you really?
1: yes!
2: can i see it?
1: YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT I DON'T HAVE A BASEBALL!!

Oh they're smarter than that.

They make wild statements that can be disproven, but that require me to make extensive research and provide elaborate explanations. I know they do it and yet I fall in the same trap every time. I am like a drug addict. :lol:

[BayernTFC]

Why did Burke insist on being president as well as GM and not have to answer to anyone but the board? A very different role than JFJ had.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter because it is what it is and Winter needs to win under the circumstances he's got.
Good point. Has anyone examined the differences in the Maple Leaf's records while under JFJ and Burke?

John Ferguson Jr. 3.5 seasons (Aug. 29, 2003 - Jan. 22, 2008)

Year Record Points Playoffs
2003-04 45-24-10-3 103 Yes
2005-06 41-33-0-8 90 No
2006-07 40-31-0-11 91 No
2007-08 36-35-0-11 83 No


Brian Burke 4 seasons (Nov. 29, 2008 - Present)

Year Record Points Playoffs
2008-09 34-35-0-13 81 No
2009-10 30-38-0-14 74 No
2010-11 37-45-0-11 85 No
2011-12 34-36-0-9 77 No

[DoubleUp]

I read somebody mentioning getting the ball to koevermans feet which I also agree with, and is exactly why your winger have to be able to break down defenses(draw players) and create space.

I also read somebody ask if we are a team top players want to play for and without my biased glasses on I say no. Simply for the fact that we dont win, our only saving grace imo is our top notch city.