Sticking up for Dunfield and Harden

[Yohan]

Because I really hate the witch hunt mentality. We, the TFC supporters (and Torontonians in general), love to pick on one or two particular players.

I say we need to stop. Criticise when required, but give praise when due too.

Dunfield and Harden are pretty much depth squad players in an MLS team. For their skill sets and salary (they both cost about 65k, based upon last year's salary list), you get value for what they bring to the team.

Take Wed night's game for example. I've seen many criticize Dunfield still, when I thought he had a good game, just as good as JDG did. Yes, he made a few gaffs, esp the one he slipped, but Dunfield played his heart out, and I'd say without his efforts on the pitch, doing his DM destroyer thing, cutting out passes, being physical against Santos attackers, playing short simple but effect passes, TFC would have lost. (just as much as it was a team collective defensive effort)

Ty Harden is not the flashiest, or most talented of defenders, but ever since he put on the jersey in Toronto, he's been improving remarkably. Still not to the point he should be starting every game, but he brings hard nose physical element to the game. Did anyone else catch that great last second tackle that stopped a Santos breakaway in 2nd half? The one that if he mistimed it by half a sec, he would have cost a penalty? He does that a lot actually.
The fact that Harden survived Winter's purge when a lot of his former teammates (Peterson, Gargan, etc) shoot their mouths off, kept his head down and willing to learn says something about Harden.

I think Dunfield and Harden are two of the hardest working players on the team, and still do their job professionally, no matter how much stick a lot of people give them. I think a lot of people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to a lot of our players. Dunfield isn't Makelele, so don't judge him as one. Harden isn't Rio Ferdinand either. We need to temper down our expectations and rate these players based upon their role and value to the team.

This is MLS. Your team will have at least few guys like Dunfield and Harden that are expected to provide depth for low salary. For their salary and their role on the team, I think Dunfield and Harden are excellent members of the squad.

[JuliquE]

Because I really hate the witch hunt mentality. We, the TFC supporters (and Torontonians in general), love to pick on one or two particular players.

I say we need to stop. Criticise when required, but give praise when due too.

Dunfield and Harden are pretty much depth squad players in an MLS team. For their skill sets and salary (they both cost about 65k, based upon last year's salary list), you get value for what they bring to the team.

Take Wed night's game for example. I've seen many criticize Dunfield still, when I thought he had a good game, just as good as JDG did. Yes, he made a few gaffs, esp the one he slipped, but Dunfield played his heart out, and I'd say without his efforts on the pitch, doing his DM destroyer thing, cutting out passes, being physical against Santos attackers, playing short simple but effect passes, TFC would have lost. (just as much as it was a team collective defensive effort)

Ty Harden is not the flashiest, or most talented of defenders, but ever since he put on the jersey in Toronto, he's been improving remarkably. Still not to the point he should be starting every game, but he brings hard nose physical element to the game. Did anyone else catch that great last second tackle that stopped a Santos breakaway in 2nd half? The one that if he mistimed it by half a sec, he would have cost a penalty? He does that a lot actually.
The fact that Harden survived Winter's purge when a lot of his former teammates (Peterson, Gargan, etc) shoot their mouths off, kept his head down and willing to learn says something about Harden.

I think Dunfield and Harden are two of the hardest working players on the team, and still do their job professionally, no matter how much stick a lot of people give them. I think a lot of people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to a lot of our players. Dunfield isn't Makelele, so don't judge him as one. Harden isn't Rio Ferdinand either. We need to temper down our expectations and rate these players based upon their role and value to the team.

This is MLS. Your team will have at least few guys like Dunfield and Harden that are expected to provide depth for low salary. For their salary and their role on the team, I think Dunfield and Harden are excellent members of the squad.
Amen.

Probably could have highlighted your whole post, but I tried to find just a few points well worth emphasizing.

[trane]

Because I really hate the witch hunt mentality. We, the TFC supporters (and Torontonians in general), love to pick on one or two particular players.

I say we need to stop. Criticise when required, but give praise when due too.

Dunfield and Harden are pretty much depth squad players in an MLS team. For their skill sets and salary (they both cost about 65k, based upon last year's salary list), you get value for what they bring to the team.

Take Wed night's game for example. I've seen many criticize Dunfield still, when I thought he had a good game, just as good as JDG did. Yes, he made a few gaffs, esp the one he slipped, but Dunfield played his heart out, and I'd say without his efforts on the pitch, doing his DM destroyer thing, cutting out passes, being physical against Santos attackers, playing short simple but effect passes, TFC would have lost. (just as much as it was a team collective defensive effort)

Ty Harden is not the flashiest, or most talented of defenders, but ever since he put on the jersey in Toronto, he's been improving remarkably. Still not to the point he should be starting every game, but he brings hard nose physical element to the game. Did anyone else catch that great last second tackle that stopped a Santos breakaway in 2nd half? The one that if he mistimed it by half a sec, he would have cost a penalty? He does that a lot actually.
The fact that Harden survived Winter's purge when a lot of his former teammates (Peterson, Gargan, etc) shoot their mouths off, kept his head down and willing to learn says something about Harden.

I think Dunfield and Harden are two of the hardest working players on the team, and still do their job professionally, no matter how much stick a lot of people give them. I think a lot of people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to a lot of our players. Dunfield isn't Makelele, so don't judge him as one. Harden isn't Rio Ferdinand either. We need to temper down our expectations and rate these players based upon their role and value to the team.

This is MLS. Your team will have at least few guys like Dunfield and Harden that are expected to provide depth for low salary. For their salary and their role on the team, I think Dunfield and Harden are excellent members of the squad.

I agree with you on Dunfield, I think he is a solid depth DM. I agree that Harden has improved. I am starting to be OK with him as a depth (MLS) player, but still your comment highlights his problem, the same type of tackle cost us a goal against LA, and as you pointed out could have been a penalty in either game. My main issue with him that he seems not to know when to be physical, he seems to give to much space outside of the box, were you can be physical with little consequences and often too aggressive (sliding tackles etc.) in the box which can lead to penalties, and other problems (own goals). But I do agree he has improved and is a decent depth player. I do not think the issue with him is talent, in the sense, he has decent size, decent athleticism, but decision making, and instincts. Like he has not played as CB all his live, in fact last year I thought we were trying to convert him to CB, until someone told me that it was the position he had played professionally.

[Yohan]

I agree with you on Dunfield, I think he is a solid depth DM. I agree that Harden has improved. I am starting to be OK with him as a depth (MLS) player, but still your comment highlights his problem, the same type of tackle cost us a goal against LA, and as you pointed out could have been a penalty in either game. My main issue with him that he seems not to know when to be physical, he seems to give to much space outside of the box, were you can be physical with little consequences and often too aggressive (sliding tackles etc.) in the box which can lead to penalties, and other problems (own goals). But I do agree he has improved and is a decent depth player. I do not think the issue with him is talent, in the sense, he has decent size, decent athleticism, but decision making, and instincts. Like he has not played as CB all his live, in fact last year I thought we were trying to convert him to CB, until someone told me that it was the position he had played professionally.

That own goal at LA was pretty unlucky. Harden stretched to slide in, and I was surprised that he actually managed to get a foot on the ball. Unlucky that the ball went in on the net. And Robbie Keane would have scored if Harden missed the ball (well, probably 99% of the time). And if Harden did miss that ball, we'd all be yelling at him for not trying hard enough to try to block the shot... Just how many own goals has Harden scored? One?

And Harden is one of few players on TFC that actually can play with both feet. At least, he looks like he's somewhat comfortable using his left foot once in a while.

[Jack]

We also need to remember that these two are in the lineup due to injuries. They're depth players being used in the roles for which they are paid: as depth. If they were all we had, then we'd be in trouble, but Cann is back on the bench, while Frings is still a few weeks away, both of whom should push these guys to the bench. Don't forget that Doneil Henry is also around, whose confidence must be rather high after scoring against the US.

[ManUtd4ever]

I have never questioned the work ethic of both Dunfield and Harden. Their distribution skills leave something to be desired, but this is MLS after all, and the salary cap implications are self explanatory.

That being said, they are both reserve calibre players on this team once the roster is healthy.

[Red Rat]

but, but, but...
if we don't burn someone at the stake the gods will be angry and we will never win again

[Jack]

but, but, but...
if we don't burn someone at the stake the gods will be angry and we will never win again
We should burn that Marcel guy.

I firmly believe that, the bigger the paycheque, the bigger the expectations. The guys who should be getting the brunt of our scrutiny are JDG, Frings and Koev.

[Roogsy]

Totally agree Yohan.

Picking on the players that make the least is like picking on the smallest player on a basketball team for not rebounding enough.


We should burn that Marcel guy.

I firmly believe that, the bigger the paycheque, the bigger the expectations. The guys who should be getting the brunt of our scrutiny are JDG, Frings and Koev.

Agreed...on both points. :D

[trane]

That own goal at LA was pretty unlucky. Harden stretched to slide in, and I was surprised that he actually managed to get a foot on the ball. Unlucky that the ball went in on the net. And Robbie Keane would have scored if Harden missed the ball (well, probably 99% of the time). And if Harden did miss that ball, we'd all be yelling at him for not trying hard enough to try to block the shot... Just how many own goals has Harden scored? One?

And Harden is one of few players on TFC that actually can play with both feet. At least, he looks like he's somewhat comfortable using his left foot once in a while.

Sure it was unlucky. But slide tackles from the back in the box often lead to unlucky results. As I said he should have gotten physical with Keane prior to him getting that deep, marking a player for a CB should be done by getting as close and physical as possible without following, that is why size is important, the usually bigger CB can muscle the smaller player around, without tripping putting his hands on him. Not lunge at the player when he is feet from the goal. Anyway as I said he is ok as a depth player.

[trane]

but, but, but...
if we don't burn someone at the stake the gods will be angry and we will never win again

We have been burning people at the stake from day one and it has worked so well for us. Why change now?

[Yohan]

Sure it was unlucky. But slide tackles from the back in the box often lead to unlucky results. As I said he should have gotten physical with Keane prior to him getting that deep, marking a player for a CB should be done by getting as close and physical as possible without following, that is why size is important, the usually bigger CB can muscle the smaller player around, without tripping putting his hands on him. Not lunge at the player when he is feet from the goal. Anyway as I said he is ok as a depth player.I watched that replay again and Harden was trying to mark two players because Eck was too far up. Harden was marking Magee I think, saw that Frings I think (gasp) wasn't tracking Keane, and by the time Harden adjusted his marking, Keane and Donovan were off to the races

[Stouffville_RPB]

100% agree on stopping the witch hunting. Players make mistakes from time to time and the second they make a memorable one most people here don't let it go.

Harden has come a long way since he first dawned the TFC kit. He was dreadful at first but now is at a point where he is a serviceable depth player (which is what he will be when the squad is healthy again).

Dunfield did play like shit on Saturday and deserved to get ripped but again people need to look at what he is on the team and that is normally a depth/bench player. For that he is a good player at this level.

[T-boy]

Agreed with the OP totally.

I think Dunfield is an ok player. And lets put it this way...he's eanring 150k, compared to JDG earning 1.9 million? Which is the better value? Yes, without doubt its Dunfield!

And Harden is a vastly improved player over the last season, you can't knock him at all for his efforts.

TFC fans have always had the witchhunt mentality. Over the last season its been Gargen, then Harden, then Iro, and now Dunfield (and Harden again). People seem, to think that if we lost one player, then the whole of TFC would improve. But that isn't the case, its a TEAM sport, not an individual player sport. Changing Harden for any other CB right now wouldn't change the fact that TFC are playing a high offside line.

[trane]

Yohan,

Ecks tends to get caught up, and that makes it difficult on the CBs, however, if you are marking two players then you need to drop back deeper, guard the goal and to speak to be in the position to block shots because marking is useless. and adjust to who ever has the ba


Having said that Harden is hardly the reason for our woes. It is a team game, and as a team we have improved, but not enough yet.


There is not such thing as a perfect team that needs no improvment in any area. Barca may come as close as possible, but I would say that their lack of size upfront can limit them at times, just as an example. Look at any of the 8 teams left in the CL none of them are withouth flows, and no player is perfect, again Messi comes the closest at this time. APOEL exluded of course.

[__wowza]

dunfield i have absolutely no complaints about.. but when i first heard of harden after his first few games, i thought he was a new kid showing some sorta promise. i rated him as a new kid and told myself he could possibly be good one day. then i found out he was 28, and has played under 100 MLS games..

the issue i have with harden is not that he's not hardworking, it's just that he doesn't get it. when he makes mistakes he'll kill himself to get the ball back, but they're still his mistakes and they still happen far too often. he looks lost. he looks like any of the skill improvement he shows is just because he's been playing for so long. his skills haven't developed, he's just been playing long enough to know how the squad works. under the defensive minded preki, harden would play as far down the depth chart as was allowed.

my problem yohan, is that im not rating him compared to any of the big name players, it's just that when i watch replays and can think of "who was marking him?", "who was tracking him?", "who was supposed to be covering the pass?" harden's name comes up more than half of the time out of all of our other defenders. spectacular moments for him, seem to be when he makes a good play. im also not giving him credit for keeping his head down or playing regardless of the shit we give him. those aren't pluses, they're expectations i have with all pro athletes. you're paid to do your job and pointing out that he should be commended for doing the bare minimum like playing when give him shit is confusing at best.

[iy12l]

burgos > dunfield
Doneil > Harden

Why not play them instead? Seriously Burgos is not only good at passing but he can also help out in attack and probably score some goals too which I dont think Dunfield can do. Doneil is faster and I bet he can read the game better than harden. Also Doneil is only 18 so he can learn the 4-3-3 easily where harden is still showing difficulty to adapt still.

[Jack]

Henry was with the national team. We have enough attackers on the pitch, Dunfield is a defensive-minded midfielder, which is needed without Frings and Cann.

[Code Red]

I think every team in MLS and probably every club around the world has fans who criticize a player or multiple players. Its what fans do. Armchair analysts have always existed and will continue to exist, no matter what. It's easy to throw guys under the bus. However I do agree that both Dunfield and Harden have been working hard so far this season. Their work ethic cannot be questioned but unfortunately the occasional lapses/mistakes will overshadow their positive contributions sometimes.

[KRO]

Thank you for this thread. Dunfield in particular seems to get unfairly burned in this forum. His work rate and attitude are second to none, he wins a lot of tackles in midfield and defense and distributes very well. I think he will be given a lot more minutes than we expect this season. Maybe his critics are all Man Utd fans who can't stand that he played for City.

Harden is also an honest hard working player but he is prone to error and sometimes has disaster games (Philly last year and last Saturday). It's very rare that defenders get pulled from a game because they are not playing well and this has happened to him in both those games. His main problem is that he is not good with the ball at his feet. The system TFC plays demands that he should be and you can see the opposition targetting him when he has the ball. He makes a couple of bad passes then his confidence goes and his whole game is affected. Hopefully with Cann, Henry, Frings back soon he will become the useful squad player that he is.

[Jack]

Thank you for this thread. Dunfield in particular seems to get unfairly burned in this forum. His work rate and attitude are second to none, he wins a lot of tackles in midfield and defense and distributes very well. I think he will be given a lot more minutes than we expect this season. Maybe his critics are all Man Utd fans who can't stand that he played for City.

Harden is also an honest hard working player but he is prone to error and sometimes has disaster games (Philly last year and last Saturday). It's very rare that defenders get pulled from a game because they are not playing well and this has happened to him in both those games. His main problem is that he is not good with the ball at his feet. The system TFC plays demands that he should be and you can see the opposition targetting him when he has the ball. He makes a couple of bad passes then his confidence goes and his whole game is affected. Hopefully with Cann, Henry, Frings back soon he will become the useful squad player that he is.
I think a lot of the hate comes from a lack of understanding of the game. People also tend to get overemotional and need a lightning rod.

[brad]

burgos > dunfield
Doneil > Harden

Why not play them instead? Seriously Burgos is not only good at passing but he can also help out in attack and probably score some goals too which I dont think Dunfield can do. Doneil is faster and I bet he can read the game better than harden. Also Doneil is only 18 so he can learn the 4-3-3 easily where harden is still showing difficulty to adapt still.

Burgos has never played a competitive match at this level so you have no idea if he is better than Dunfield or not. How do you know he is better? (and don't say pre-season match - that doesn't show much of anything)

How exactly do we play Henry when he is away with Canada?

[backbeat]

I completely agree - it's also nice to see a thread like this

we spend far too much time putting our own players down - no problem pointing out errors in a match etc. but to relentlessly pound one of our own makes zero sense to me

when this team gets healthy these 2 are solid back-ups and quite frankly the depth that Mariner and Winter have built is showing now...

[Red4ever]

Burgos has never played a competitive match at this level so you have no idea if he is better than Dunfield or not. How do you know he is better? (and don't say pre-season match - that doesn't show much of anything)

How exactly do we play Henry when he is away with Canada?

+1 - unreal.

[spark]

+1 - unreal.

+2 that is a crazy statement. If you saw our season opener last year and the Canada Ecuador match you know Dunfield can score. I think we are lucky to have a player like him who provides that depth - someone who has good experience, an amazing attitude, always willing to get stuck in and battle and isn't afraid to receive the ball. His consistency hasn't been great, but he's had some very solid games that, to me, show he's alot better than we've had over the last five years.

[T-boy]

The "problem" some people have with Dunfield is his position, and what he's been asked to do by Winter, rather than the player himself. I've seen Dunfield score a cracker for Canada, and he can spray a great 40 yard pass out (he did one in the Laguna game) - but Winter is asking him to stick in midfield and not get sucked out of position or tactic - so its making Dunfield look like a pedestrian sometimes. Dunfield isn't a "flair" player at all, but he's got more in him than the DM role he's being asked to play, that's for sure.

Dunfield reminds me of Sandra playing for Spurs sometimes. Remember last season when Sandro scored that goal and Redknapp nearly murdered him for it? Winter is like that for Dunfield - he's asking him to play conservatively, play the short pass and play out to the wings and stick in position, whereas Dunfield has more ability that just short passing and running in short circles.

[Jack]

I'm not sure, T-boy. I saw Dunny do some pretty lacklustre things with the ball in the attacking third on Wednesday evening.

[TFCBarrie]

Whole heartedly agree with Yohan and the majority in this thread, commitment and hard work should be celebrated.

[Jack]

Winning should be celebrated. Commitment and hard work should be applauded. g:D

[brandrews]

if dunfield had been here year one, he would have been the original poty.

i am very appreciative of what carl robinson brought to this club in the first couple of seasons, but i would take terry dunfield over him in a heartbeat. in my opinion, dunfield is at least as good of a ball winner, more industrious, and has much better distribution, along with being a potential threat from distance.

i realize the team structure and system is completely different at this point, but something to think about.

[ensco]

Interesting. Harden is third on the active list in TFC games played, behind only Frei and JDG.

[Technorgasm]

I love this thread. . its long over due to call out good performances. well done.

for me its not abotu value for money. .
its out who WANTS to play and give their all for thsi squad.

Both of these guys fit the bill, and it can only get better.
plus having a Canadian international is easy to cheer for!

I'd add Soolsma to this as well, he has been fantastic this season.

[BayernTFC]

I say we need to stop. Criticise when required, but give praise when due too.
I certainly agree with the sentiments of your post. I do think that we have to accept that not everyone is watching or seeing the same things, so comments on player's performances will always be uneven. It can be interesting to hear (or read) what others have to say. Football can be a fast paced game, and I only have two eyes, so I certainly don't see everything. Some people here have a good grasp of the game and pick up on the subtleties. Their comments can be insightful, their arguments persuasive, and their posts appreciated. Speaking for myself, I don't feel that I need to balance my comments all the time. If I have been previously critical of a player, I sometimes refrain from commenting either way until consistent improvement is observed. I find that positive comments really stand out and carry greater weight when someone usually critical expresses praise after an exceptional performance. Conversely, continually pointing out the same problems becomes tiresome and loses effect. Oftentimes, I'll avoid making a comment on an obvious error if overall play has been good.



Dunfield and Harden are pretty much depth squad players in an MLS team. For their skill sets and salary (they both cost about 65k, based upon last year's salary list), you get value for what they bring to the team.

Take Wed night's game for example. I've seen many criticize Dunfield still, when I thought he had a good game, just as good as JDG did. Yes, he made a few gaffs, esp the one he slipped, but Dunfield played his heart out, and I'd say without his efforts on the pitch, doing his DM destroyer thing, cutting out passes, being physical against Santos attackers, playing short simple but effect passes, TFC would have lost. (just as much as it was a team collective defensive effort)

Ty Harden is not the flashiest, or most talented of defenders, but ever since he put on the jersey in Toronto, he's been improving remarkably. Still not to the point he should be starting every game, but he brings hard nose physical element to the game. Did anyone else catch that great last second tackle that stopped a Santos breakaway in 2nd half? The one that if he mistimed it by half a sec, he would have cost a penalty? He does that a lot actually.
The fact that Harden survived Winter's purge when a lot of his former teammates (Peterson, Gargan, etc) shoot their mouths off, kept his head down and willing to learn says something about Harden.
I think Ty Harden is a good example of what can happen if a player is given enough time to settle. Harden has become steadier when too much isn't asked of him, and he has provided some quality defending from time to time. However, his deficiencies have remained clear and I think much frustration is born from the fact that he has continued to be relied on so heavily. If Harden was being used in the role that Maund seems to have at the moment (where Maund is seeing tactical, relief or emergency minutes while the coaching staff patiently tries to get him some experience), then I believe few fans would take issue.

I see a big difference between Terry Dunfield and Ty Harden, however. Until Torsten Frings arrived, TFC's inability to use the middle of the pitch was not only limiting, but it made the team look incomplete and hard to watch. I felt Dunny's performance against Santos Laguna was noteworthy because, through him, TFC was actually able to connect to the attack using the middle of the pitch. Despite the poor result against San Jose, TFC was able to show an ability to use the middle of the pitch during that match as well because of Terry's play. Perhaps some former TFC midfielders have gone on to perform well elsewhere but, unlike Dunfield, they were unable to demonstrate an ability to connect to the attack or make good use of the centre of the pitch when they had their chances at TFC. Terry Dunfiled is no Torsten Frings, but he has afforded TFC's coaching staff the option to utilize Frings elsewhere when needed and he has also provided cover when either JDG or Torsten Frings are out of the lineup. I have seen a marked change in TFC's midfield play with Terry Dunfield deployed, that I just don't see in the backline with Ty Harden. Dunfield has been doing something many others have failed to do for TFC. Has Ty Harden changed Toronto's backline much from when Marco Velez, Tyrone Marshall or Andy Iro were deployed in central defense? Even if I would rather have Ty Harden instead of Velez, Marshall, Iro or Garcia, which I do, should I be content that TFC's central defense isn't as poor as it could be?



I think Dunfield and Harden are two of the hardest working players on the team, and still do their job professionally, no matter how much stick a lot of people give them. I think a lot of people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to a lot of our players. Dunfield isn't Makelele, so don't judge him as one. Harden isn't Rio Ferdinand either. We need to temper down our expectations and rate these players based upon their role and value to the team.

This is MLS. Your team will have at least few guys like Dunfield and Harden that are expected to provide depth for low salary. For their salary and their role on the team, I think Dunfield and Harden are excellent members of the squad.
I think it is important to bear in mind that the Manchester Uniteds and Bayern Munichs don't produce clean sheets every match. Own goals, ricochets, bad touches, missed blocks, missed assignements, poor marking and general slips and mistakes happen to the top players on the best of teams too. As well, one good game doesn't change everything. TFC has Columbus to play on Saturday, and Santos Laguna in the second leg of a semi-final at home will be a completely different kettle of fish. MLS rules and the salary cap certainly place limitations on squads. Do MLS restrictions mean players feel the brunt of criticism and management often gets a pass? Do MLS rules prevent mangement from making colossal or irreversable mistakes, or do the league rules make it too difficult to unravel the mistakes previous mangement regimes have made? Has the money on Thierry Henry and Rafa Marquez been well spent? What happens when addtional money gets spent on a Mustapha Jarju? Should fans even worry about off field decisions or any of the numbers, or should the focus just be on the performance on the field?

This is an important discussion to have. I like to know who is accountable for what. I also like to see individuals accept responsibility and stand up to be accountable. Sould fans be part of that equation? Does paying for a ticket or bothering to follow a team give a person a free pass to make any type of comment they wish? That's a hard question. If fans aren't entertained and no one pays attention, then what do you have really? I'll protect your right to say it, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with what you say. In the end, if a discussion provides little value, I'm likely to disengage anyways. I appreciate your post Yohan. Thank you.

[Yohan]

^Nowhere did I say that Dunfield and Harden shouldn't be criticized when they screw up. Rather, I'd like to see more objective criticism tempered with knowledge of how things work in MLS, and that you won't get quality players in every position. And stop with the scapegoating.

I'm so sick of people ragging on Dunfield and Harden, because it's the cool thing to do

[TFCBarrie]

Winning should be celebrated. Commitment and hard work should be applauded. g:D

I stand corrected and in agreement with you Jack.

[BayernTFC]

Picking on the players that make the least is like picking on the smallest player on a basketball team for not rebounding enough.
I find comments like this tricky. Have certain comments truly been made to pick on a player or do they just support facts? How does one know whether a comment will be received as justifiable criticism or perceived as picking on a player? Should anyone bother attempting to give constructive criticism and what is the best way to do it? Should one just avoid commenting on poor play? I'm not supportive of making judgements solely on pay scale. Every team has a lowest paid player. If you play a position on the field, you have a role. If you start a match, there are expectations. Salary does tell a part of the story. However, no matter how much is being paid, picking on a player is picking on a player. How much does it really add to a discussion and how much does it diminish the effectiveness of a particular poster's arguments?

[iy12l]

I dont care how hard Harden and Dunfield work, they are shit players no better than an average superdraft picks. Everytime we are in a slight lead i get a heart attack when i see harden/dunfiled with the ball. They are so shit that they are more like offence for the other team.

[Jack]

I dont care how hard Harden and Dunfield work, they are shit players no better than an average superdraft picks. Everytime we are in a slight lead i get a heart attack when i see harden/dunfiled with the ball. They are so shit that they are more like offence for the other team.
Case in point.

[KRO]

I dont care how hard Harden and Dunfield work, they are shit players no better than an average superdraft picks. Everytime we are in a slight lead i get a heart attack when i see harden/dunfiled with the ball. They are so shit that they are more like offence for the other team.
This has been a very balanced and mature discussion except for your contributions. I suppose you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it is but I for one would appreciate a more reasoned argument.

[Jack]

Judging by his posting history, that is about what we can expect from him. That is part of the reason why we have the new Reputation system.

[PopePouri]

It's part of human nature to scapegoat but that doesn't make it right.

Hopefully this is Henry's year to get a lot more minutes and given his performances in Dallas and the CMNT, he looks like he has the ability now to shut down good MLS forwards.

[BayernTFC]

^Nowhere did I say that Dunfield and Harden shouldn't be criticized when they screw up. Rather, I'd like to see more objective criticism tempered with knowledge of how things work in MLS, and that you won't get quality players in every position. And stop with the scapegoating.

I'm so sick of people ragging on Dunfield and Harden, because it's the cool thing to do
We are in complete agreement. I wasn't trying to portray that you were suggesting that critical comments about players shouldn't be made. I just used your OP to convey my thoughts. Perhaps I was too long winded? I wanted to explain why I felt Terry Dunfield and Ty Harden were in different situations despite the fact that they receive similar criticism. I think your comparison of Harden to Gargan or Peterson was apt, but I think Dunfield's situation would more suitably be compared to Cronin or Labrocca. I was trying to play devil's advocate in places and I apologize if my comments made it appear as though I was attacking you in some way. I find many MLS rules convoluted and designed to reduce accountability. I have taken the effort to learn the rules and try my best to understand them. It has been less frustrating to accept MLS rules for what they are, even though I personally prefer other standards. I have been a part of discussions on MLS rules already and I do not wish to hijack this thread over them.

[Fishnicker]

MLS rosters still need a number of players in the 65-100k range (I know Dunny makes more than that, but my point is these guys are depth players). In the past, I think we've made poor use of those slots.

Dunny basically represents Kevin Harmse, or maybe Nane Joseph. I see an upgrade. Harden is probably the best CB depth player we've had.

I think they're both great for that salary range.

[trane]

Scoring is not the first quality I look for in a DM. Judging him on his ability to score is silly. Sure it is nice, when in certain situations, a DM can take advantage of space and put a nice shot at target, but I would be very upset if my DM was constantly being part of play around the finishing third. His job is to sit back, be both the first line of defense and the starting point of attack, the pivot if you will. WHile it is a crucial role which involves both some offensive and defensive skills, scoring is just not high on the priority list.

As much as I am critical of him, here, I have seen the improvment in Harden, and I applaud it. However, clearly he should not be our starter.

[BayernTFC]

i am very appreciative of what carl robinson brought to this club in the first couple of seasons, but i would take terry dunfield over him in a heartbeat. in my opinion, dunfield is at least as good of a ball winner, more industrious, and has much better distribution, along with being a potential threat from distance.

i realize the team structure and system is completely different at this point, but something to think about.
You know, I think this is a very interesting post. I remember people really getting on Carl's back towards the end of his tenure at TFC. I thought they were being overly critical despite the good things Carl brought to the team. I understood what TFC management was trying to do at the time when they signed JDG, but I thought that replacing Carl with Julian was a mistake. The obvious arguments against Carl over age and salary were made. He did get injured while with RBNY. Robinson was a ball winner for us and he commanded respect in the middle. Carl did have his issues with distribution which Terry seems to be showing he can handle. It would have been interesting to see Carl perform on the grass at BMO. I'll wait a little longer before I form a definitive opinion on Terry. Like many players to wear the red, Dunfield has had some shaky performances for TFC. Dunny hasn't played a lot of games for TFC and, although he appears to be settling in, I'd like to see how things progress over time.

[Soccerpro]

Ty Harden makes the same type of silly errors time after time. He can work as hard as he wants, he's just not MLS quality. I blame management for playing him, not him for trying his best.

Terry Dunfield played ok against Santos. He tries hard, however, he's often not skillful enough. He passes backwards far too often and tends to give possession away cheaply sometimes.

As a supporter of this team I'm going point out who isn't contributing to success. I'm not going to sit here and say "oh well he tries hard". Give me Doneil Henry and Matt Stinson over those two any day.

Are they responsible for all of TFC's problems? No

Would TFC have been better off without Ty Harden these last 2 and 1/2 years? Absolutely. Every time I see him on the field I just cringe.

[Yohan]

Terry Dunfield played ok against Santos. He tries hard, however, he's often not skillful enough. He passes backwards far too often and tends to give possession away cheaply sometimes.

same could be said of JDG. just saying

[Belfast_Boy]

I agree with you on Dunfield, I think he is a solid depth DM. I agree that Harden has improved. I am starting to be OK with him as a depth (MLS) player, but still your comment highlights his problem, the same type of tackle cost us a goal against LA, and as you pointed out could have been a penalty in either game. My main issue with him that he seems not to know when to be physical, he seems to give to much space outside of the box, were you can be physical with little consequences and often too aggressive (sliding tackles etc.) in the box which can lead to penalties, and other problems (own goals). But I do agree he has improved and is a decent depth player. I do not think the issue with him is talent, in the sense, he has decent size, decent athleticism, but decision making, and instincts. Like he has not played as CB all his live, in fact last year I thought we were trying to convert him to CB, until someone told me that it was the position he had played professionally.


you're a bit kinder than I am about these two. i try not to slag our guys. well... except for JDG. he's getting paid way too much for what he brings. like others have said they belong on the bench and work hard when asked. can't wait for the regulars to get back. the worst thing i'll say is that both of them make me nervous.

[Soccerpro]

same could be said of JDG. just saying

Absolutely. I'm not impressed with JDG as a DP. But I'm not going to argue he isn't competent to be on the field.

[A.J]

Ty Harden makes the same type of silly errors time after time. He can work as hard as he wants, he's just not MLS quality. I blame management for playing him, not him for trying his best.

Terry Dunfield played ok against Santos. He tries hard, however, he's often not skillful enough. He passes backwards far too often and tends to give possession away cheaply sometimes.

As a supporter of this team I'm going point out who isn't contributing to success. I'm not going to sit here and say "oh well he tries hard". Give me Doneil Henry and Matt Stinson over those two any day.

Are they responsible for all of TFC's problems? No

Would TFC have been better off without Ty Harden these last 2 and 1/2 years? Absolutely. Every time I see him on the field I just cringe.

I think he is exactly MLS quality. You know as well as eveyone else that an MLS team just cannot have every position filled with star players. Some areas of the team will always pale in comparison to the others (also consider how most teams will invest their DP money into offense, not defense). Maybe your "MLS quality" vastly differs from my "MLS quality"

As for your last statement regarding TFC being better off without Harden in the last few years, I also disagree. You cannot say that playing Harden has been detrimental to the team, the same way I cannot say that the team would have been worse off without Harden, because we simply have no way of proving otherwise. It's a baseless and a subjective argument.

[DoubleUp]

Winning should be celebrated. Commitment and hard work should be applauded. g:D

Exactly! lets never forget this.

Tfc fans sometimes are so busy celebrating hard work and good character, that our season usually goes down the tubes.

Its time to start winning now, we did the hard workers and nice guys and it has brought us nothing.

[DoubleUp]

I know one thing, I rather have Nana and/or Marvel wynne over harden any day

[A.J]

Exactly! lets never forget this.

Tfc fans sometimes are so busy celebrating hard work and good character, that our season usually goes down the tubes.

Its time to start winning now, we did the hard workers and nice guys and it has brought us nothing.

We also had a winner and ended up driving him out of town for not being a hard worker/nice guy

[Soccerpro]

I think he is exactly MLS quality. You know as well as eveyone else that an MLS team just cannot have every position filled with star players. Some areas of the team will always pale in comparison to the others (also consider how most teams will invest their DP money into offense, not defense). Maybe your "MLS quality" vastly differs from my "MLS quality"

As for your last statement regarding TFC being better off without Harden in the last few years, I also disagree. You cannot say that playing Harden has been detrimental to the team, the same way I cannot say that the team would have been worse off without Harden, because we simply have no way of proving otherwise. It's a baseless and a subjective argument.

MLS quality = competent. Competent = not standing out on a regular basis (meaning every 1-2 games) for your poor play and costly errors as compared to other players on your team and players who play your position around the league.

On every other team (for example several defenders on the whitecaps last year) when someone shows they aren't competent, they are replaced/nailed to the bench because they aren't MLS quality. This hans't been the case with TFC and Ty Harden. he just keeps on playing and making mistakes.

Name me someone who makes as many mistakes as him that sees regular time as a CB in MLS. You can't. They get replaced.

Explain to me how Ty Harden is MLS quality. Do you see a player like Ty Harden playing regulary for every MLS team?

Stop making excuses for Ty Harden. If he's on the field on a regular basis, MLS will continue to suffer mental breakdowns which cost them games. Anything less is utter nonsense.

[ensco]

I know one thing, I rather have Nana and/or Marvel wynne over harden any day

A bit like saying you prefer Filet mignon to Big Macs. Wynne makes $300K.

[DoubleUp]

We also had a winner and ended up driving him out of town for not being a hard worker/nice guy


That certainly wasnt me!. And he was a nice guy, just ruthless when it came to money and football.

[DoubleUp]

A bit like saying you prefer Filet mignon to Big Macs. Wynne makes $300K.



Fair enough, and in Nana's case?.

[Yohan]

On every other team (for example several defenders on the whitecaps last year) when someone shows they aren't competent, they are replaced/nailed to the bench because they aren't MLS quality. This hans't been the case with TFC and Ty Harden. he just keeps on playing and making mistakes.

Name me someone who makes as many mistakes as him that sees regular time as a CB in MLS. You can't. They get replaced.

Cory Gibbs, Chicago
Tyson Wahl, Montreal
Stephen Keel, New York

[Ossington Mental Youth]

burgos > dunfield
Doneil > Harden

Why not play them instead? Seriously Burgos is not only good at passing but he can also help out in attack and probably score some goals too which I dont think Dunfield can do. Doneil is faster and I bet he can read the game better than harden. Also Doneil is only 18 so he can learn the 4-3-3 easily where harden is still showing difficulty to adapt still.

i dont think we've seen Burgos play enough to come to that conclusion.
I dont have enough faith in Henry quite yet, the kid is young and can learn alot still

[Ossington Mental Youth]

A bit like saying you prefer Filet mignon to Big Macs. Wynne makes $300K.

and is technically terrible.
hes fast but thats about it.

[[NBF]]

IMO, Harden and Dunfield played well in the game vs Santos Laguna, but I think it had more to do with the two teams not having played each other previously and Santos playing the game fairly modest. Given the weather conditions I think they knew they would return to Mexico and be able to play in a more suitable playing conditions. They basically played like they did not want to get anyone injured.

I still think Harden and Dunfield are maybe suited to playing in the NASL, but given our options I guess they will have to do for now. Their performance though reminds me of Nick Garcia with TFC. It just depends on how far your memory goes back with TFC or whether you were sober the majority of the time when you watched him play.

Its a miracle the team didnt get destroyed thats all it means. People and fans of the team just want the team to succeed so desperatly that they're willing to forget previous woeful performances for just one decent one in such an important game.

[jazzy]

reminds me of the maple leaf history lets get a team of low paid, low scoring grinders and thats the the way to win?....

I stand behind the whole team but , fact is fact, I'd be so much better IF he didn't take every friggin cross which btw continuously went over everyones head past the keep....we MISSED big opportunities there. Or is this not showing up on TV......Dunfield is a bench player and that is that . Harden again is standing on his head but ,..needs a real primer in positioning...E.G.,...Gomez's goal

[PopePouri]

We also had a winner and ended up driving him out of town for not being a hard worker/nice guy

I miss Jacob Peterson too.

[Ajax TFC]

I think the reason that Dunfield played well in the last two games was because he was played in a bit more of an advanced role. I think that part of his problem is that he doesn't think fast enough, and freaks out when he gets the ball near his own box. By putting him in a more advanced role you take off some of the responsibility of playing in front of your back line, and as a result we saw a much calmer and decisive Dunfield. (even if he still looked a bit indecisive at times, it was a HUGE improvement over the previous games)

[iy12l]

I'd like to see Dunfiled get the boot by the end of this season. When Cann and Williams return Harden should never be playing again/or warming the bench unless it there is another injury crisis. Both of them have a really high chance of being waived and hopefully some young talent or european veterans who know the 4-3-3 will be signed to bring more stability and leadership.

[KRO]

I'd like to see Dunfiled get the boot by the end of this season. When Cann and Williams return Harden should never be playing again/or warming the bench unless it there is another injury crisis. Both of them have a really high chance of being waived and hopefully some young talent or european veterans who know the 4-3-3 will be signed to bring more stability and leadership.

If you could spell Dunfield's name I might start taking you seriously, but I don't think your capable of that. Are you going to be at the game tomorrow or did you spend your allowance on something else this week?

[TOBOR !]

Aw, crap. After reading the OP I can't be mad at Dunfield or Harden. I had these guys pencilled in as the new Reda and Braz. Now what am I going to do ?

[jabbronies]

I have nothing against Dunfield. I think he is a decent middle of the road MLS player.

Harden on the other hand...Can't say the same. The guy is extremely shaky in his play.
Game in and game out he is getting beat on basic attacking runs against him - I'm not talking about MLS star players, I'm talking about anyone who can execute a basic attacking pattern.
His passes are super suspect. The guy doesn't look up when he passes.
Once, maybe twice a game he'll make a decent defensive save, but it usually done because he was recovering from an early fuck up by himself moments earlier.

[jloome]

I think a lot of the hate comes from a lack of understanding of the game. People also tend to get overemotional and need a lightning rod.

In this case, I disagree with the former, agree with the latter. It's human nature to pick on a target you've already condemned even when he doesn't deserve it, that' s all.

Dunfield has had some really poor performances. But objectivity demands calling each game on its own merits, and he had a really good game on the weekend. All those little passes into space, and moves into coverage space, that he was blowing in the first few games came together on the weekend. In fact, the team moved defensively as a unit, and that's always hard to break down.

If we admit Dunfield is a depth player, we can admit his performances are sometimes poor. Ergo, it's not a lack of understanding of the game, it's confabulation, inventing poor performances where they don't exist in order to assign blame most easily, instead of taking the trouble to analyze, which is an open-ended proposition and therefore less inclined to provide the subconscious guarantee of security.

So the b-level players will always make easier lightning rods. Harden has some good days, some bad. He was out of position and held Gomez onside on the first goal. Can't have your central defender losing the line. But one or two bad mistakes for your second/third central defender at MLS level probably doesn't really surprise any of us.

[DoubleUp]

If you could spell Dunfield's name I might start taking you seriously, but I don't think your capable of that. Are you going to be at the game tomorrow or did you spend your allowance on something else this week?

Shwing!!!

[DoubleUp]

I think the reason that Dunfield played well in the last two games was because he was played in a bit more of an advanced role. I think that part of his problem is that he doesn't think fast enough, and freaks out when he gets the ball near his own box. By putting him in a more advanced role you take off some of the responsibility of playing in front of your back line, and as a result we saw a much calmer and decisive Dunfield. (even if he still looked a bit indecisive at times, it was a HUGE improvement over the previous games)

I think this is the most indictable statement against terry, I agree if he was just bit faster in decision making he would be a very good player. Its probably the reason he never lasted in europe.

[Chris Wren]

Harden has cost us games. I don't jeer the home side, but I hardly think he deserves to be coddled either. Dunfield is mediocre, but Harden is brutal. Sorry.

[Ajax TFC]

I'd like to see Dunfiled get the boot by the end of this season. When Cann and Williams return Harden should never be playing again/or warming the bench unless it there is another injury crisis. Both of them have a really high chance of being waived and hopefully some young talent or european veterans who know the 4-3-3 will be signed to bring more stability and leadership.
why do you think that only european veterans know how to play in a 4-3-3? The requirement for being able to play a 4-3-3 Dutch style has more to do with skill, vision and passing ability than it does experience. And Europeans with those qualities generally don't come cheap.

[razor787]

I have never been a fan of harden. He may make good tackles every now and then, but he is way too dangerous to have defending inside the box. That PK he gave up is a great example. The slide tackle was the wrong move tbere

[Jack]

In this case, I disagree with the former, agree with the latter. It's human nature to pick on a target you've already condemned even when he doesn't deserve it, that' s all.

Dunfield has had some really poor performances. But objectivity demands calling each game on its own merits, and he had a really good game on the weekend. All those little passes into space, and moves into coverage space, that he was blowing in the first few games came together on the weekend. In fact, the team moved defensively as a unit, and that's always hard to break down.

If we admit Dunfield is a depth player, we can admit his performances are sometimes poor. Ergo, it's not a lack of understanding of the game, it's confabulation, inventing poor performances where they don't exist in order to assign blame most easily, instead of taking the trouble to analyze, which is an open-ended proposition and therefore less inclined to provide the subconscious guarantee of security.

So the b-level players will always make easier lightning rods. Harden has some good days, some bad. He was out of position and held Gomez onside on the first goal. Can't have your central defender losing the line. But one or two bad mistakes for your second/third central defender at MLS level probably doesn't really surprise any of us.
Unrealistic expectations from MLS bench players would indicate a bit of a lack of understanding, from what I see, but fair enough.

[iy12l]

If you could spell Dunfield's name I might start taking you seriously, but I don't think your capable of that. Are you going to be at the game tomorrow or did you spend your allowance on something else this week?

Hey you still think Dumbfield and Ty Harden or Try Harder should still be starters after todays game?? You must be Mo Johnston's son or something. If you could afford the tickets for todays game you would of saw that:

Emory > Harden
Avila/Silva > Dumbfield

But since your Mo Johnston's son ill guess you would want Gargan, Garcia back too wouldnt you?

[Yohan]

for those of you think Attakora and Henry is the answer, I hope you guys watched the Canada vs Mexico U23 game. ripped paper bag could have played better than those two

[TFC USA]

Let's defend Andrea Lombardo, too. Nick Garcia! Andy Iro! Everyone!

Look, Dunfield and Harden are bad. It's not their fault they suck so much and are actively putting our team at a disadvantage.

Management and Winter in particular are fucking absurd to not find better alternatives or keep starting them.

[DoubleUp]

for those of you think Attakora and Henry is the answer, I hope you guys watched the Canada vs Mexico U23 game. ripped paper bag could have played better than those two

Really Yohan! we would not be asking either especially Nana to anchor a backline just be better than harden which I strongly believe he is. Secondly the Mexican U-23 team is much more competent side than TFC.

[Yohan]

Really Yohan! we would not be asking either especially Nana to anchor a backline just be better than harden which I strongly believe he is. Secondly the Mexican U-23 team is much more competent side than TFC.ya really. as good as Mexican u23 side is, I'd expect Attakora and Henry to put up more of a fight than just letting Mexicans walk over them.

[Heart of Stone]

The Toronto Star thinks Ty Harden looks like Ryan Johnston... when in doubt, why not just guess who it is!?!

[DoubleUp]

The Toronto Star thinks Ty Harden looks like Ryan Johnston... when in doubt, why not just guess who it is!?!



They're identical twins seperated at birth, did you not know ?

[ryan]

anyone want to stick up for Dunfield after that one?

[Soccerpro]

Ty Harden anyone??

"But it's not his fault!, it's a team game etc etc"

The definition of insanity: : doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - aka Aaron Winter.

[Benficachop20]

Really can't wait to hear the ridiculous excuses to defend these two morons today. The team played like shit, but Dunfield and Harden played BIG roles today on the goals conceded.

[Couchy81]

Every negative comment about these two in this thread came true in today's game. No reason to keep playing these guys if they will continue to cost us games, rather have academy players in there learning and making mistakes than two veterans making the same mistakes every other game.

[MartinUtd]

Is this thread going to come back after every game this season?

[Gazza]

I can't believe this thread exists haha.

[jloome]

Unrealistic expectations from MLS bench players would indicate a bit of a lack of understanding, from what I see, but fair enough.

Not on the part of the players, on the part of the guys playing them.

Today would be another good example.

[Beach_Red]

Really can't wait to hear the ridiculous excuses to defend these two morons today. The team played like shit, but Dunfield and Harden played BIG roles today on the goals conceded.

Look, neither of these guys are rookies, TFC knew what they were getting and got them anyway - and then continue to play them.

We have the most poorly run team in the league and we're blaming a couple of MLS journeymen?

[Jeff s]

But but but Dunfield made that one good pass and umm.. Harden made that tackle. Im starting to see improvement, give them a chance guys.

:rolleyes5:

[Benficachop20]

We have the most poorly run team in the league and we're blaming a couple of MLS journeymen?

So what? i know the team is poorly managed. If it was up to me Winter would have been sacked last season, only thing is that Frings came in and pretty much had to fix all the shit Winter is doing. But at the end of the day those 2 guys are still getting payed, and the types of mistakes they made today was flat out embarrassing. Seriously CSL players would have dealt with those situations better. It's both on management and the 2 players.

[Yohan]

Harden and dunfield deserve all the criticism for shambles of a game today.

Well, at least the away support was good. Prob better than bmo field

[Ajax TFC]

It wasn't Dunfield's fault that he had the ball stripped from him for the first goal, it management's fault for playing him! and it wasn't Harden's fault that he made Emory take a red card, and it wasn't his fault for getting wrecked by Wenger when he had a three meter head start to the ball on the second goal. Why wasn't it their fault? because they're bad players!! [sarcasm/].... wait what? is there any room for accountability these days? Or is it always the coaches fault when his players (who get PAYED to play soccer) f*ck up.
Yes you can criticize the management for getting/playing these players, but why is it that criticizing the players themselves is so cruel? They have a job to do, and they aren't doing it, it's as simple as that

[iy12l]

We should brings boards to the next TFC game saying "Harden, JDG, and Dunfield GTFO"

[TorontoMO]

It's Manchester City's fault for singing Terry when he just a boy and allowing him to use their youth system as a calling card.

[Soccerpro]

Are we going to see these players today? I hope not. I didn't expect to see them the last 3 games, but Winter just doesn't seem to learn his lesson.
Man this thread was instint gratification after last week's game.