Rate Winter: March 2012

[__wowza]

PLEASE READ BEFORE RATING!
(it'll make everything a hell of a lot easier)

Instead of a simple yes or no, you're going to be rating different aspects of Winter as a coach. Each category gets a specific rating, from 5 (being the highest) to 1 (being the lowest). To calculate the average rating, just add your total up and divide by 5, if it's got a decimal point at the end of it, you can round either up or down based on the simple question "did Winter perform up to your expectations for the month". Afterward, you post your total rating on the poll, from 5 - 1.

here's the criteria:

TACTICS
how did you feel about the tactical choices made?
what about his starters? subs? formation?

RESULTS
at the end of the day, how did we do in terms of results? did we tie games we should've lost? lost games we should've won? etc.

EFFICIENCY
how effective was the coach in utilizing the players he has?
did he play some players out of position? did he have a reason to?

COMMUNICATION
how effective was the coach in explaining his outlook and choices in the paper / on torontofc.ca / on TFCtv / in post match interviews?

TRADES & MISC
were the trades made productive or counter-productive?
did he fly off the handle at get a 4 game ban?
was he making eyes at your wife/girlfriend/same-sex partner?


A general guideline: Its how you feel at the moment, not a final assessment. Like a marathon, this is just a snapshot of our support for the month. A low approval rating does not rate him as an overall failure, just like a high approval rating does not mean he's Sir Alex Ferguson. For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in September:




LEAGUE PLAY
0 points out of a possible 6
10TH in the East -
19TH out of 19 overall -
GD: -5

CHAMPIONS LEAGUE PLAY
Defeated LA Galaxy on aggregate 4-3
Currently -1 on away goals against Santos

*red denotes CCL game

Toronto FC v LA Galaxy
MAR 7thh : TIE 2-2

LA Galaxy v Toronto FC
MAR 14th : WIN 1-2

Seattle Sounders v Toronto FC
MAR 17th : LOSS 3-1

Toronto FC v San Jose Earthquake
MAR 24th: LOSS 0 - 3

Toronto FC vs Santos Laguna
MAR 28th : TIE 1-1




OLD THREADS:
*3.95 / Rating: B+ OCTOBER THREAD (http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?30014-Winter-Approval-Rating-October-2011&highlight=rate+winter)
*3.76 / Rating: B SEPTEMBER THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?29748-Winter-Approval-Rating-September-2011)
*3.21 / Rating: C AUGUST THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=29422)
83.44% JULY THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=29100) (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=29100)
63.55% (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=28658)JUNE THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=28658)
46.60% MAY THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28251)
77.61% APRIL THREAD (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=27878)


NOTE: if you'd like to see an update to the criteria you think i may have overlooked, PM me.

[Red Rat]

oh shit
here it comes:hide:

[Red Rat]

I voted one because there is no 1/2

[__wowza]

TACTICS: 3
some of the moves he's made haven't made sense to me, but in champions league play they seem to be working. we're making the best of what we've got with frings/frei out, and an intense schedule, i'd be rating lower if it wasn't for this.

RESULTS: 4
champions league, good. league, bad (but only after 2 games). like i said, tight schedule, injured captain (aka: the man who holds our defense together), i didn't expect the LA or the Santos result, so i'm rating him higher, im not going to let a loss to san jose dictate panic just yet.

EFFICIENCY: 4
we seem to be making the most out of what we have, but danny's had a rough run of games as of late. for a man who had such a lethal strike rate last season, seeing him go 4 games without a goal is worrisome. i enjoy seeing him play soolsma in his current role and think he's a great fit for our current attack where others believe he lacks speed. im on the fence about dunfield but we're playing with what we've got. it's weird that our once stacked midfield is now being stretched thin, but for the most part everyones done their job.

COMMUNICATION: 3
i've always found he's been good with communicating certain things that go right, but when it comes to what goes wrong i've found the "people weren't doing their jobs" excuse gets kinda tiresome. im sure there's more to it, but it's not being communicated to us.

TRADES & MISC: 2
would've loved to see him pick up someone else capable of filling in frings role, we knew the team couldn't just rely on a 33 year old all season and hope that he stays healthy. caciedo trade didn't work out, wasted a spot there, and still have a CB problem. if it weren't for the superdraft pick this would be a 1. he knew our problems and failed to fix them.


OVERALL: 3.0 (rounded down from a 3.2)
i'll admit we've only played 2 games in the league, but the transfer window is why his rating dropped. i love our CCL results, and will admit that we're playing a tough schedule with injured players, but we cut a lot of the fat without and didn't make any big shakeups to the roster we knew needed some more bodies. get ready for a rough game against columbus!!



^ i also wanna point out that this is a preferred format for this thread, but do what you will. even if it's just an overall and an explanation as to why. it'll save a 14 page thread where people just say they voted 1/5, not say why and then defend a position without ever explaining it.

[Brooker]

bit early for this, no? 2 league games and 3 CCL games... lol.

[Fort York Redcoat]

bit early for this, no? 2 league games and 3 CCL games... lol.

Technically correct. This weekends match is on the 31st so wow could've waited till next week but I think more may be excited to look at the month today than on Sunday.

I agree with the overall 3.

tactics are suspect in the opening 2 in the MLS campaign Seattle game they looked great gooing forward spreading the ball confidently but three at the back v SJ made it a very hard day at the office.

results i agree with. I rate Champions League and he's made it work somehow. I'll bring up Seattle again because it was probably one of the most impressive loses I've seen my team play in.

trades and aquisitions I can't think of how they could've replaced a DP period but trying to fill his role on this squad will be spread throughout more than one player alone. He clearly was a field marshall.

[Stouffville_RPB]

Month isn't over yet but...

if you had to rank our performances today (best to worst) 1 through 5 our three best games this month were our 3 biggest matches in our existence. In all ways when all the chips are down Winter had our team ready and deliver their best performances and that shouldn't be overlooked by anyone.

[Roogsy]

5 star? :noidea:

I voted 3.

We have 1 win in 5 games. The team was competitive and came through in the most important game so far but it's foolhardy to ignore we have 2 league losses and only 1 win so far. So an average or above average score so far I think is fair.

[Roogsy]

bit early for this, no? 2 league games and 3 CCL games... lol.

I think Wowza has been itching to put up this thread. :lol:

[Ageroo]

5 star? :noidea:

I voted 3.

We have 1 win in 5 games. The team was competitive and came through in the most important game so far but it's foolhardy to ignore we have 2 league losses and only 1 win so far. So an average or above average score so far I think is fair.

I voted 3 as well....I am in agreement with Roogsy for once. ;)

[nascarguy]

I think Wowza has been itching to put up this thread. :lol:

they sell cream for that you...lol

[nascarguy]

I voted 3 as well....I am in agreement with Roogsy for once. ;)oh no never agree with him it just makes his head go big...lol I pick 3 too

[T-boy]

I voted 2.

As far as season set up is concerned Winter has been average at best. Lambe looks a good signing, and obviously getting Plata and Ecks full time are excellent signings. However, Winter hasn't really addressed TFC's worst problem last season - the centre backs. Losing Ceicedo is a massive blow, so the right side of defence is still an issue. Aceval looks shaky at left CB, he's made a lot of mistakes so far, but I'll give him the befefit of the doubt and give him more games to settle in yet. So, 3/5 for season set up - good for getting Lambe, Ecks, and Plata, bad for not really addressing key issues. I also think we lack depth in centre forward, I would hope that Winter signs a back up striker sometime during the season.

Tactically Winter has been extremely average. His tactical awareness isn't great. I like the way he's setting up the squad and the formation - but on a match by match basis, we need to be more fluid and adaptable. Winter hasn't shown that he can change anything mid game to change the outcome if it isn't going TFC's way. Winter needs to improve this before I give him a higher score than 2.

[Couchy81]

So are the results of the Columbus game on March 31 going to count towards this poll or the Rate Winter April poll? If it's the former I'll wait to rate so it reflects March properly.

[DichioTFC]

I voted 5, which I realize is high, but I don't fault Winter for the team's failures. Frings' injury is a 'worst case scenario' situation that would have been difficult to foresee.

Only thing I truly fault him for is sticking to a high line in the back. We defended well last night against a top team by sticking to a flexible defensive line, thanks to team defence and a reinvigorated JDG playing box-to-box. Hopefully we see better defending, but I blame the parts involved more than Veentar himself.

[jabbronies]

I voted 3 stars.

He has had 3 decent games (CCL x 3) and 2 horrible games (MLS x 2)
doesn't matter what happens this saturday - those 2 losses were unacceptable and exposed us for what we could be if he doesn't fix things.

Perhaps he is working out the kinks of his tactical arsenal, however, he better do it quickly. High line all out attack isn't going to work against every team.

[__wowza]

I think Wowza has been itching to put up this thread. :lol:
oh roogs, you know it's just because i love hearing about your hard on for winter. this blind faith you have in the team has to stop!! :rofl:


Month isn't over yet but...

to be perfectly honest, the calendars at my work are misprinted and have the saturday as april 1st. i think i knew about it when i scheduled "wrestlemania, TFC v krew, wait.. WTF?" on it, but i was too groggy to notice. my apologies folks!!

[Toronto_Bhoy]

Really?

[__wowza]

^ care to clarify?

[Gazza]

Really?

Really.

3. Might be a 2 by next Thursday.

[Oldtimer]

lulz, a bit early in the season to put this up, no?

Anyway, my real rating of Winter will be mid-season, after the summer transfer window and once we have 1 whole season (two halves) with the re-tooled squad.

[tfc2008]

Iam happy nobody cares about the ratings here, winter is a good coach

[denime]

NO,Thanks to early

[Pookie]

We have 1 win in 5 games.

Or looking at it another way, they are un-defeated in 3 CCL games involving a Mexican side and the LA Galaxy.

Don't disagree with the 3 rating though. That said, I picked 4 mainly because you picked 3 ;)

[Ossington Mental Youth]

was tempted to pick two because of the two league games, but he has done well elsewhere. still worried about our defense.

[Abou Sky]

TACTICS
Did OK in CCL1 VS LA, VERY good in CCL2 vs LA (stopped them from getting set pieces)
Sounders game he was resting players, had out of shape Koovermans and JDG, and had tactical screwed when he lost Frings at 23min.
SJ he was trying to figure out how to defend without Frings.
SL he figured out how to defend without Frings and tore a strip off defense because they were RIGHT on their marks.

I liked the formations used in all three CCL games (the numerous ones per game) I don't even KNOW what the formation was supposed to be against SJ but it didn't work.

RESULTS
Never thought we would beat Seattle, SJ was painful to see though.

EFFICIENCY
Liked seeing Eck moved to CB in 2nd half last night. He seemed like he wanted to run up the field but didn't and did a darn good job as a CB. His use of Lambe has been gorgeous, I would have liked to see him recall Henry and Stinson

COMMUNICATION
how effective was the coach in explaining his outlook and choices in the paper / on torontofc.ca / on TFCtv / in post match interviews?

TRADES & MISC
He was making eyes at me, but he is cute enough so no biggie...

[Jack]

This is his rating for March, of which there are two days remaining, so I'm not sure why people are saying it's too early. Rate him for the month of March, or think about it for a couple of days, then rate him on Sunday. That seems pretty straightforward to me.

As for my rating, I gave him a 2. The bottom line is, we've only won one game in the whole month, despite it being an absolutely key victory. 1-2-2 isn't exactly a stellar month and we can't keep coming up with excuses. At the end of the day, we need to win and be in the hunt in MLS. Let's see what happens tomorrow. That said, I'm very happy with our performance in the CCL.

[Carts]

My only real critism / disagreement with Winter was playing Frings, on turf, in Seattle - but really, an injury like that is worst case scenario...

I just feel, at 35, and on field turf, with a very busy fixture list (including the 2 most important games in history) it was the perfect day for him to have a seat - and avoid the 'worst case scenario' from happening...

Who knows if the turf caused the injury; some say he slid, caught the turf, and we all know the muscle/ligaments will strain/tear before that plastic shit - or if it would have happened on grass, but it just sucks...

Otherwise, after seeing Wednesday's gameplan executed perfectly and effectively - he's doing his job and doing it well...

I'm not voting, as Saturday's game needs to be taken into account - namely, the lineup and tactics he uses with Wednesday on the horizon...

[Stouffville_RPB]

As for my rating, I gave him a 2. The bottom line is, we've only won one game in the whole month, despite it being an absolutely key victory. 1-2-2 isn't exactly a stellar month and we can't keep coming up with excuses. At the end of the day, we need to win and be in the hunt in MLS. Let's see what happens tomorrow. That said, I'm very happy with our performance in the CCL.

Your rating is your rating but your two comments contradict each other. You gave Winter a low score but are very happy with 60% of what has happened so far this season. If your are happy with what he's done in 3 out of the 5 games we played so far shouldn't you give him a 3? Not looking for an argument or anything, just saying.

[__wowza]

i've noticed no one seems to point out the fact that the monthly rating threads of our head coaches have been around for the past 3 seasons and that they always start up at the end of our first month of games. like i said, my calendar was misprinted so i accidentally started before the columbus game. you can always vote afterwards you rate winter on how you think he performed for the month, it's not an indication of how he's going to do for the rest of the year, or how he's done halfway through the season. there's never been a first half/second half of the season thread.

if you don't have any opinion due to the fact that it's "too early" for you to judge his performance (even based off of the fact that we've played, oh, i don't know, 5 games in a month) i'd like to remind you that so far we've had the following to gauge an opinion on:



a transfer window
a preseason tournament
3 concacaf champions league games
2 league games

[Stouffville_RPB]

i've noticed no one seems to point out the fact that the monthly rating threads of our head coaches have been around for the past 3 seasons and that they always start up at the end of our first month of games. like i said, my calendar was misprinted so i accidentally started before the columbus game. you can always vote afterwards you rate winter on how you think he performed for the month, it's not an indication of how he's going to do for the rest of the year, or how he's done halfway through the season. there's never been a first half/second half of the season thread.


Hey __wowza why is this thread so early? g:D

[ensco]

Columbus game doesn't matter for me because of CCL. I want him to commit max resources to CCL.

I voted 3, with the majority. Arms folded, but a smile on my face because of the CCL run.

[Oldtimer]

^^^ ... and I just read an article yesterday that a rebuild in any sport that involves changing the culture of a team should be given a minimum of 5 years, lol.

I don't mind you posting this _wowza. Somehow we need to find a happy medium between deciding too quickly and giving a Mo a "5 year plan" to mess things up.

Kreis took 3 years to fully rebuild RSL, and the team played like crap for almost 2 years, before just sneaking into the playoffs. Their supporters considered him an idiot for the longest time, and their board on BS looked very much like ours. I think giving Winter at least a year and a half before we judge is wise, if not longer.

[Roogsy]

^ You're stretching the Kreis story's timeline OT. Don't start that old fight again. :lol:

[Beach_Red]

^^^ ... and I just read an article yesterday that a rebuild in any sport that involves changing the culture of a team should be given a minimum of 5 years, lol.

I don't mind you posting this _wowza. Somehow we need to find a happy medium between deciding too quickly and giving a Mo a "5 year plan" to mess things up.

Kreis took 3 years to fully rebuild RSL, and the team played like crap for almost 2 years, before just sneaking into the playoffs. Their supporters considered him an idiot for the longest time, and their board on BS looked very much like ours. I think giving Winter at least a year and a half before we judge is wise, if not longer.


Changing the culture is a good idea - and it may very well take 5 years - but it's going to be tough for Winter to do it from the position of middle management on a three year contract. A real change in culture may need to start at the top, which it did for RSL - Kriess gets the credit, but he had an owner who supported him and knew what he wanted to do.

[jabbronies]

Your rating is your rating but your two comments contradict each other. You gave Winter a low score but are very happy with 60% of what has happened so far this season. If your are happy with what he's done in 3 out of the 5 games we played so far shouldn't you give him a 3? Not looking for an argument or anything, just saying.

One could say there is a difference between the results and the coaches decisions.

Even though they did well in CCL, they still shit the bed in MLS and they did it pretty well. 2 ties and 1 win (5 goals for; 4 goals against) could be perceived as not good enough compared to 0-2 (1 goal for; 6 against). In total we have scored 6 and let in 10. We missed out on a W in the 89th minute of a CCL match, shut out of 1 mls game and had no chance in the other.

At the end of the day the CCl results were good, but the negatives of MLS and CCL far outweigh them

[__wowza]

Hey __wowza why is this thread so early? g:D

oh you can go eat rotten fruit from a shitty tree!! :dita:
i knew someone was gonna do that!

[Oldtimer]

^ You're stretching the Kreis story's timeline OT. Don't start that old fight again. :lol:

:D

I think we're all in agreement that Winter will be judged by us this year. I wasn't saying that we should give him 5, or even 3 years. My own view is that 1-1/2 is enough of an indication to see if he's on the right track, with results by mid-year being the biggest part of judging him. I gave Mo 3 years before I called for his head, I'm not going to wait that long this time.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

:D

I think we're all in agreement that Winter will be judged by us this year. I wasn't saying that we should give him 5, or even 3 years. My own view is that 1-1/2 is enough of an indication to see if he's on the right track, with results by mid-year being the biggest part of judging him. I gave Mo 3 years before I called for his head, I'm not going to wait that long this time.

i definitely see the logic behind that however I have a prob with firing a coach and not having a decent and/or immediate back up.
Id be pissed if we fired him then bumbled along the rest of the season.

[iy12l]

Of all the coaches we had he is definitely the best, but it doesn't mean hes good. He needs to work on tactics and teaching the team more off the ball movement. I hope he brings in more dutch players next transfer window.

[Abou Sky]

New here and all, but gotta say this reeks of Toronto fans for everything.

Should we judge him this year? Yes.

Should we fire h

[Abou Sky]

Grr... iPhone.

IMHO We shouldn't fire him until end of next season if we don't make the playoffs.

He has now mostly built a team, he has to coach them and finish building, we need to give him time to see his vision through.

A lot of the things people are commenting on are player faults not coaching faults.

Just my $.02...

[Roogsy]

I am not sure what "reeks" of anything. Almost 90% of the poll participants voted for 3 or higher and I am not sure anyone has mentioned firing him.

[Abou Sky]

I would just hate to see TFC run like the Leafs where we change coaches every time things don't go great.

[Roogsy]

I would just hate to see TFC run like the Leafs where we change coaches every time things don't go great.

Seems to me when things "don't go great" is precisely a reason to fire a coach. I am not sure what other reason there would be. Nor how it's in the best interest of any sports club to keep a coach around that isn't producing successful results.

I'd also disagree with the portrayal of the Leafs being run that way. Considering the Ron Wilson saga, I would say it seems to be the opposite where much like with Mo, the Leafs took too long to get rid of someone they should have earlier, much less give him an extension like they did with Wilson.

There seems to be some sort of commonly accepted theory that changing coaches is a "bad" thing. From where I stand, it's hiring poor choices for coaches that should be frowned upon in the first place. And I have yet to see any evidence to prove that keeping a coach around longer after he's proven not to have the right stuff is good for the team, the fans or the club.

[TFCRegina]

2 Stars, the same rating i consistently gave him last year.

[tfc2008]

New here and all, but gotta say this reeks of Toronto fans for everything.

Should we judge him this year? Yes.

Should we fire h



No brain???????

[Dv23]

The TEAM has performed well, in my opinion, over the course of the month. Yes, they've had some problems on the counter-attack, and with scoring in the three league games, but overall they have impressed me.

Winter, on the other hand, continues to make mind-boggling decisions, and I always leave myself questioning his thought process. The players he starts, the subs he makes, his unwillingness to change tactics when they clearly aren't working. I don't know, it works against CCL competition, but it doesn't work in league play. It's odd.

If we were going by CCL, I'd give him a 4. By MLS, a 1. I'll give him a 2 in general.

[T-boy]

The TEAM has performed well, in my opinion, over the course of the month. Yes, they've had some problems on the counter-attack, and with scoring in the three league games, but overall they have impressed me.



I must be a really grumpy guy, but they haven's impressed me. The only way they've impressed me is that they are able to rise to the occassion in the big games. But this team is going to be judged on getting results that they NEED to get - winning the bread and butter league games, especially at home.

The next league game is against Montreal - they haven't won a game yet - and they are going to be super hungry to win this game. If we lose that one, and go 4 games with zero league points, I will be severely dissapointed!

[SoccMan]

One thing that has bothered me lately about Winter is his curious substitutions at times, a few times taking off Soolsma in games where he is playing well and where he was being a threat offensively and substituting him with a player who has no hope of providing anything in the offense. The game in Torreon verses Santo Laguna where he took off Plata when Plata was having a great game and put on the Bermudan player, we where down and needed to score,however, he takes off one of our main threats in that game, just puzzling moves he makes at times.

[__wowza]

^ the subs i get a lot of the times. we've played 5 games in two weeks and we're rationing everyone.
i think this season is a shock to winter about the actual lack of depth we have. whereas in previous seasons, we've seen people like preki field the bteam in the CCL, winter has seemed like he believed we could perform in both the CCL and MLS respectively. his substitutions seem to reflect that. take off a player like plata and soolsma so theyre not completely outt've gas for the next game, of course, this comes at the expense of which we wanted more: the league or the champions league.

[jloome]

One thing that has bothered me lately about Winter is his curious substitutions at times, a few times taking off Soolsma in games where he is playing well and where he was being a threat offensively and substituting him with a player who has no hope of providing anything in the offense. The game in Torreon verses Santo Laguna where he took off Plata when Plata was having a great game and put on the Bermudan player, we where down and needed to score,however, he takes off one of our main threats in that game, just puzzling moves he makes at times.

Two guesses that seem logical to me: he took off Soolsma in the game before last because, even though he was being effective out wide, that wasn't what Winter wanted from him. He wanted him cutting inside as well, and Soolsma's brain was stuck on the sideline.

He took off Plata for fatigue, because he wanted to take advantage of Lambe's speed late against a tired back.

Plata was effective twice... and scored twice. Does that mean he would have popped up in the right place again, or that he would've faded and not offered a broader game? I dunno. my instinct says a guy has scored two clutch goals, you leave him on and play the magic, not the odds. Soolsma in the first game was a tactical thing, to remind him to keep his head in the game. And he was our best player against Santos.

[David_Oliveira]

TACTICS (4/5)
I think that tactically, TFC has looked somewhat good. He has started a team that, on paper should be doing good. He has needed to make substitutions during various thinking of the next games. Tactically, he has done very well. His player selections have been good considering the crop he has to select. The team has suffered a major blow in not having Frings in there and Winter has selected the "best" option we have besides him.

RESULTS (3/5)
In terms of results, we got results in three games that a unbiased person would say we had no right in getting. We also had a loss against SJ Earthquakes and one to the Sounders. We went -4 in Goal differential. My rating would be alot less had we not gotten the results against LA and Santos.
The team needs to work on getting better results because for the most part, they do not explain the good tactics we display.

EFFICIENCY (4/5)
Again, Had it not been the injury to Frings, he would not have had to play the JDG/Dunfield combo that cost us a few games. I liked the positioning of the players and you can definitely see the tactics he is implementing. He has had to deal with a tough stretch of games and has had to juggle the lines to keep the players as fit as possible.

COMMUNICATION (1/5)
Not impressed by the lack of info in the media. We don't get as many updates on things like injuries that I think we should get. We also don't get as much insight into how the team is progressing (ie.: Training reports). I think that TFC should push media to run these stories or if there are no takers, run it themselves.

TRADES & MISC (2/5)
I think that the biggest problem that TFC has faced this season has not been shoring up our disastrous d from last season. Aceval is not the reason and who's to say that Cann and/or Williams will come back to their pre-injury forms? Had it not been for the signings of Plata and Ecks and the drafting of Silva, I would have scored this part as a 0

OVERALL (2.8/5)
It might be alittle early so I don't believe that the 3/5 is reflective of who the team really is. The players' leader (Frings) going down to injury has really shown a drop in confidence and leadership on the field. His play really hid the way that Aceval really plays (poorly). I think that once he is ready to go, we will see TFC start picking it up again.
I do think that the summer transfer window should be spent searching for a better option at CB. I really hope that this is focused on as I see it as being one of the biggest (if not the biggest) downfalls to the team

[Benficachop20]

It's either we get rid of him now or later, because at this rate we will miss the playoffs again and have another joke of a season. We imrpoved in the second half of last season because of Frings, thats it, not because of Winter. Now that he's injured, were being exposed of how poor we are. Montreal an expansion team passes the ball better then us and it's going to 6 years now and we still suck at passing the ball around. We conceded a record number of goals last season in mls history, at this rate we'll break it, and on top of that we flat out can't score nm creating chances. With the players we have we should be doing better. Our academy team can play better than this

[Soccerpro]

It seems Frings is the only reason we got better, Winter just happened to be the manager when Frings arrived.

[Couchy81]

It seems Frings is the only reason we got better, Winter just happened to be the manager when Frings arrived.

At the end of last season I was of the opposite viewpoint to this, but now it seems there is more truth to it than I had hoped.

I rated a 3 for March due to the CCL run, and a solid game at home vs. Santos

[Jeff s]

So whats Winter's excuse this season? We kept most of our players so they should be used to each other. Yet expansion teams pass the ball and attack better than us.

His refusal to change formation is already a big problem. His substitutions is even more laughable. He just makes straight swaps, on top of that, he seems to have a habit of taking out our best players (like Plata against Santos). He also has a habit of changing defenders when we need a goal. What the hell goes through this guys mind? I never see him talk or give instructions to the players as well.

I hate getting rid of managers, but seriously lets not kid ourselves, this guy has to go now in order to possibly save this season. I honestly rather have Dasovic. At least he managed to get his team to attack and score goals with somebody's else's team

[SKB]

Serious consideration needs to be given to replace Winter. However, who is waiting in the wings to replace. Is there a better coach out there? If so we better get that coach lined up now. The coaching staff has had more then a year to solve our defensive issues and we are worse now and you can't blame it on injuries. The players they have brought in have been terrible.

[PopePouri]

I was one who thought Winter needed more time. Now I think he's had it and he's just shit. I can't blame this on Frings' absense, there's still 2 DPs on the pitch that should provide the "leadership" that Aron keeps alluding to. He has shit tactics, his team selection is shit. So many questions like,vWhy is Johnson playing no. 10 when you have 2 on the bench? Subbing Henry on as RB is a shit decision when they've put a bunch of time grooming Stinson there for the past year. Are we playing a possession game when we're only getting 35% against a fucking expansion team? I don't think it's personnel. We have decent fullbacks, we have a good set of wingers and no. 10s. We have a DP striker. Winter is the true scapegoat here.

[gomesv]

Winter has been lost since he started, with his pedigree I just don't understand how he see's the game.....tactics, personnel decisions, how can he be so blind to some of the players he keeps trotting out there at the expense of others......I just don't get it......but hey this is Toronto....back to the next five year re-build.....by the way scored him a 1....

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

Another couple losses and I think it might be time to let Winter go. Let's bear in mind he has no experience as a manager at the senior team level and it's showing. I'd give it to Rafael Carjabal. I think he could do a lot with the team and find some descent squad players.

[iy12l]

Another couple losses and I think it might be time to let Winter go. Let's bear in mind he has no experience as a manager at the senior team level and it's showing. I'd give it to Rafael Carjabal. I think he could do a lot with the team and find some descent squad players.

I think he will get fired if he loses the next two. If were gonna get a new coach he should be dutch because we cant just throw away the dutch 4-3-3 they're trying to bring in.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

^ Well, 4-3-3 isn't exactly working so I think it would be safe to cast a wider net. That said, I'm pretty sure Carjabal played 4-3-3 at Milltown. I'd be happy with the MLS's answer to big Sam, someone who can get a team to grind out results.

I can't see Winter's position being tenable if loses the next two home games. I assume they'd put Mariner or De Clerk, assuming they don't get fired too, in his place.

[ag futbol]

I agree that it's important to keep some derivative of the system we're working towards even if the guy on the top changes. I think what we're trying to achieve is doable but we need to be flexible about our vision. I think there is precisely one team in the world that can "play their game" and not worry about the other teams tactics. Otherwise, everyone else is using some mixture of how they want to play and how they have to play to get results.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

It' a tough one. Is the advantage in continuity of management greater than the disadvantage of changing manager every year? I wouldn't be surprised if they kick Winter upstairs and hand the team over to someone else. We've tried the English coach, we've tried the coach with MLS experience in Preki, and now we've tried the European coach in Winter. What's left? Someone local or someone South American. Rafael Carjabal ticks both boxes.

The next two games should be telling.

[SoccMan]

Carjabal who are you guys, why him, what has he done? Look it's starting to become evident Winter is in over his head, not all great coaches were great players, yes Winter was a very good player,however, might not have it as a coach at this level. I think it might be time for Mariner's buddy that Nichol fellow.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

Carjabal has been very a good coach at the local level. He's got all his badges and would promote local talent. Thinking inside the box hasn't exactly worked for the team so far, time try something a little innovative. I'd say Carjabal getting TFC is no more pie-in-the-sky than a youth team coach taking over at Inter Milan.

[brad]

I agree that it's important to keep some derivative of the system we're working towards even if the guy on the top changes. I think what we're trying to achieve is doable but we need to be flexible about our vision. I think there is precisely one team in the world that can "play their game" and not worry about the other teams tactics. Otherwise, everyone else is using some mixture of how they want to play and how they have to play to get results.

We need to be more flexible and play towards the strengths and away from the weaknesses of the players we do have - not blindly adhere to a system for the sake of the system. I'm all for instilling such a system in the fabric of the club and developing players in that mold. Hopefully it pays dividends in a decade from now when those players we are able to mold from the critical age up towards the first team (although we are dreaming if we think a whole first team of high quality players will materialize from our academy).

But trying to play the way we are with the players we have today isn't working. We need something that works with the player we have now.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

Are you guys crazy!? Winter must be allowed to coach to the end of the season.PERIOD. No more coaching changes midway through!

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

^ Perhaps it is you who are crazy.

Seriously, I think he's got some rope left, but he's got to start winning games. Hypothetically, if he loses another four straight, do you really think he should stay until the end of the season?

[Abou Sky]

Are you guys crazy!? Winter must be allowed to coach to the end of the season.PERIOD. No more coaching changes midway through!

As much as I want to hang Winter right now too, I think once we all get our blood pressure under control we will see TFCREDNWHITE is 100% right on this.

IMHO 'success' is 50+pts, playoffs or not.

Still 30 games in the MLS season, let's see what he can conjure up.

Oh, can we send Emory back to 'saved by the bell'? PLEASE?????

My 7 year old picks apart his game!

[SCF1908]

Yeah, the man who got the team to the semi-finals of the Champions League is a failure.

No, really.

I have a bridge for sale for anyone interested. All reasonable offers considered.

[ManUtd4ever]

Winter must absolutely be given the duration of the season to determine his own fate. It would be counter productive to make a drastic change at the managerial level during the season.

[Rene Kingsriver]

Yeah, the man who got the team to the semi-finals of the Champions League is a failure.

No, really.

I have a bridge for sale for anyone interested. All reasonable offers considered.

And the man who has started the season 0-4 is a success, we're out of the CCL enjoy the memories but it's time to concentrate on the League

[Beach_Red]

Winter must absolutely be given the duration of the season to determine his own fate. It would be counter productive to make a drastic change at the managerial level during the season.

Before something can be counter productive there has to be something productive. Should we ride the fact that Dallas collapsed and we had a good game against LA for the rest of this season?

Though, I agree, changing coaches during the season would only work if there's a real possibility that a new coach could get more wins out of this roster - or out of a roster with just as many (but maybe different) holes in it. This is MLS, every team has a few players on the lower end of the pay scale who will make mistakes and some teams are better at dealing with that.

We'll get some injured players back and come up against teams with their own injury problems and we'll win some games this year. We may even flirt with the playoffs (depending on injuries), but can we really say this organization is building anything that can be sustained? We're still waiting for one of their town hall promises to be kept... The CB, the "best front office in MLS" and on and on...

[SCF1908]

And the man who has started the season 0-4 is a success, we're out of the CCL enjoy the memories but it's time to concentrate on the League


You have to ask yourself if he has already accomplished more than all previous managers really. It's not like this club is built on a foundation of success. Having more managerial changes than Chelsea is not a recipe for success. So you have a manager who has accomplished getting to the semis, a first for Canada, and has essentially been on par with the other managers in the league. He said this would be a two year project. Give him his two years, he's a proper class act with an outstanding personal pedigree in the sport, something none of his predecessors had.

[Rene Kingsriver]

You have to ask yourself if he has already accomplished more than all previous managers really. It's not like this club is built on a foundation of success. Having more managerial changes than Chelsea is not a recipe for success. So you have a manager who has accomplished getting to the semis, a first for Canada, and has essentially been on par with the other managers in the league. He said this would be a two year project. Give him his two years, he's a proper class act with an outstanding personal pedigree in the sport, something none of his predecessors had.

How can you say he's been on a par with other MLS managers when we finished 16th out of 18 last season and are 0-4 this! and I'll happily take a history of coaching success over pedigree any day. A season and a half is plenty of time to turn things around if we aren't challenging (and I mean actually challenging not just mathematically still alive) for a play-off spot by the road game against Philly Union on July 8th then he should go.

[SCF1908]

That was a typo, I meant OUR mangers. Obviously not all managers in the league hahahaha.

[Roogsy]

Nigel Reed threw out a statistic in his article today that I had not seen before.

6 wins in 38 MLS games. :eek6:

I don't care if you did have to rebuild last year, that statistic is disgusting.

If he does not have a better month in April, my rating will most definitely drop.

[brad]

You have to ask yourself if he has already accomplished more than all previous managers really. It's not like this club is built on a foundation of success. Having more managerial changes than Chelsea is not a recipe for success. So you have a manager who has accomplished getting to the semis, a first for Canada, and has essentially been on par with the other managers in the league. He said this would be a two year project. Give him his two years, he's a proper class act with an outstanding personal pedigree in the sport, something none of his predecessors had.

A few things on here

1: all our other managers have been crap. Simply being better than past crap is not acceptable.

2: Winter keeps changing the target. At the start of last season, he was adamant that playoffs were the target last year. Then it was next year as a target. The three year plan from him wasn't to make the playoffs - its to win the whole thing.

3. In the supporters town hall last fall - I asked Winter directly if they would start the season as a competitive team or if we would still be in rebuild mode. His answer was we would be be ready and competitive at the first game. We are now 0-0-4 in the league, 1-2-5 overall. That is poor.

4. I do rate the CCL highly and give him credit there, but not at the expense of being crap in the league. We are setting the same pace as year one where we lost our first four and won the fifth - with less road game than year one. That is terrible.

[Beach_Red]

Nigel Reed threw out a statistic in his article today that I had not seen before.

6 wins in 38 MLS games. :eek6:

I don't care if you did have to rebuild last year, that statistic is disgusting.

If he does not have a better month in April, my rating will most definitely drop.

That article is good and as it says, there aren't many options for roster changes. Certainly the team will be better when Frings comes back, and Cann, but it's almost strange that there haven't been any rumours about trouble in the front office. Is Paul Mariner still with TFC?

[jabbronies]

Nigel Reed threw out a statistic in his article today that I had not seen before.

6 wins in 38 MLS games. :eek6:

I don't care if you did have to rebuild last year, that statistic is disgusting.

If he does not have a better month in April, my rating will most definitely drop.

Really?? Holy shit that is bad.

[London]

Nigel Reed threw out a statistic in his article today that I had not seen before.

6 wins in 38 MLS games. :eek6:

I don't care if you did have to rebuild last year, that statistic is disgusting.

If he does not have a better month in April, my rating will most definitely drop.


Coaches style, coaches players,coaches fault

[Belfast_Boy]

Nigel Reed threw out a statistic in his article today that I had not seen before.

6 wins in 38 MLS games. :eek6:

I don't care if you did have to rebuild last year, that statistic is disgusting.

If he does not have a better month in April, my rating will most definitely drop.

since you put it like that.... Yikes! that's alarming. someone has lost the plot.

[__wowza]

Nigel Reed threw out a statistic in his article today that I had not seen before.

6 wins in 38 MLS games. :eek6:

I don't care if you did have to rebuild last year, that statistic is disgusting.

If he does not have a better month in April, my rating will most definitely drop.

if we do worse in april i will add a 0* section just for you g:D

[Abou Sky]

That article is good and as it says, there aren't many options for roster changes. Certainly the team will be better when Frings comes back, and Cann, but it's almost strange that there haven't been any rumours about trouble in the front office. Is Paul Mariner still with TFC?

Sooo... Who would have thought a year ago that Cann would be the light at the end of the tunnel???

Wowza that is bad.

[trane]

I did not vote, because I am caught between two and three. Clearly the results are lacking. Clearly we keep on making some key mistakes, on the defensive side of the ball particularly. But I honestly think that we have improved and keep on improving. Having said that Montreal is better then us, and this is year one for them. Why? Every year it seems that a team joins a league and becomes as competitive as we are seemingly right of the bat. That is frustrating. The back line is not good enough, and I am starting to think that under this management it may never be. We either cannot scout a good CB, or are looking for the wrong qualities in our CBs. However, I am not sure that this is all on Winter.

[Carts]

I was so hoping for continuity and stability. A long term management team to build and lead the team into the future...

But lets be honest, in North American sports the answer starting the season winless over a good chunk of games is usually the coach gets fired...

We need a run of positive results, and fast!

The night at the Dome and win over LA, plus Frings injury might buy Winter some time but we need results and fast!

[Abou Sky]

I think if we lose the Chivas and Fire games he will likely get the boot.

Would likely mean another losing season, and I think either way they SHOULD keep him until the end, even if it is a 0 win season.

Changing players is not so hard, changing coaches is very difficult on morale. It would be easier for him to change his style and start doing a 5-3-2 or 5-4-1 than it would be to change him.

He isn't stupid, he can change the way he plays the team if he wishes.

As for starting lineups, there are things we don't know about.

Eck has a tender hamstring. So he was subbed off (even I was going WTF??? at the game) maybe Emory had been really great the past few practices and he choked against MTL.

Not making excuses for him, he should be held accountable but he shouldn't be fired.

[jabbronies]

Interesting in Winter's post game he says "In the coming weeks, I will change some things..." :
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/04/07/postgame-aron-winter-april-7-2012

He is confident things need to change and they will soon. Says trade deadline is too late to do it. Needs to happen now.

At the end of the dayI'm still ok with giving him a 3 start rating.

Last game was lost by Harden and Dunfields giveaways as well as the rest of the defense lack of urgency to fix the problem. Can't blame Winter for that IMO.

CCL was lost by our CB's and Deguzman. Again, I don't blame Winter for that.

[Roogsy]

CCL was lost by our CB's and Deguzman. Again, I don't blame Winter for that.

By that rationale, the LA game was won by Ryan Johnson and Winter should not get credit for that either.

For the record, I don't buy either. Just stating the illogical nature of giving credit on the one hand for success but excusing failure on the other.

[trane]

After I heard that post-game interview, in which shows some frustration, and states the need to make chances ASAP, I would give him another 6 games, to try to turn the ship around.


This is the fifth year, that I give the manager 10 games to show me that he can do something positive after a shit start. This is getting OLD.

[Red Rat]

Nigel Reed threw out a statistic in his article today that I had not seen before.

6 wins in 38 MLS games. :eek6:

I don't care if you did have to rebuild last year, that statistic is disgusting.

If he does not have a better month in April, my rating will most definitely drop.

I wasn't aware that it was this bad

[trane]

^ WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW. I Did not see that. So much for the theory that we have too quick of a trigger in Toronto. Rebuild or not that stat is horrible. 6 games. That is all. [ I like winter, but as they say Wins talk, losses walk-or something like that]

[jabbronies]

By that rationale, the LA game was won by Ryan Johnson and Winter should not get credit for that either.

For the record, I don't buy either. Just stating the illogical nature of giving credit on the one hand for success but excusing failure on the other.

I don't agree with this at all. It's a bad example you've used.

If you want to give one player credit for winning a game over the manager, then use the "Miracle in Montreal" as an example. That game was won by Dero and only Dero. The manager had nothing to do with that win. Sure I can agree with that.

But you are now saying that the whole game was carried by Ryan Johnson and if it weren't for him, they would not have gotten that result. I don't buy that. I thought the majority of the team played decent in L.A. and when the majority of the team plays well, you give credit to the manager for that.

Santos was lost by the Deguzman penalty as well as his overall poor play. We got a result at BMO because Deguzman was on. He didn't show up for that last game. You can give credit to the CBs for the Santos loss as well - 4 goals given up by the CBs alone (combination of poor man marking, another PK).

Half of what I've spoken about above doesn't happen, then that 6th goal doesn't happen either and TFC are in that game.

[Carts]

I hate it when people say "we won the game b/c of Joe Smith" or likewise we lost it b/c of one person to...

There will always be heroes - There will always be goats... But this is a team game - WIN AS A UNIT / LOSE AS A UNIT...

For every 4-goal hero, there is 5-perfect passes or great tackles that are lost in the headlines...

For every missed marking in the box leading to a goal, there is a ball that wasn't tracked in the infield that led to the cross...

Win as a team... Lose as a team...

[jabbronies]

I hate it when people say "we won the game b/c of Joe Smith" or likewise we lost it b/c of one person to...

There will always be heroes - There will always be goats... But this is a team game - WIN AS A UNIT / LOSE AS A UNIT...

For every 4-goal hero, there is 5-perfect passes or great tackles that are lost in the headlines...

For every missed marking in the box leading to a goal, there is a ball that wasn't tracked in the infield that led to the cross...

Win as a team... Lose as a team...

For the most part, sure. It's a team game, every player does their part etc etc.

But are you saying that games have not been won on the shoulders of one player before? When a team doesn't deserve to win, but 1 player stands on his head and he's the reason why they won? or on the flip side lost?

I can name a bunch of players in pro sports where this is an obvious case.

[Abou Sky]

For the most part, sure. It's a team game, every player does their part etc etc.

But are you saying that games have not been won on the shoulders of one player before? When a team doesn't deserve to win, but 1 player stands on his head and he's the reason why they won? or on the flip side lost?

I can name a bunch of players in pro sports where this is an obvious case.

Pls don't say Messi. Xavi is the reason Messi is Messi.

[T-boy]

I think I want to downgrade my rating to 1. My original score of 2 was based on our victory over LA. However, I now realise that LA are the only team in the league who are playing (possibly) worse than TFC! LA are in chaos right now, and are half the team they were last season without Gonzales.

I originally thought beating LA was amazing, and thought they would be the best team in the league - but right now LA aren't playing well at all, so I now take much less gratification from that victory.

[Roogsy]

I think I want to downgrade my rating to 1. My original score of 2 was based on our victory over LA. However, I now realise that LA are the only team in the league who are playing (possibly) worse than TFC! LA are in chaos right now, and are half the team they were last season without Gonzales.

I originally thought beating LA was amazing, and thought they would be the best team in the league - but right now LA aren't playing well at all, so I now take much less gratification from that victory.

That's not a very popular position to take. I made the same point about Dallas, even though the facts reveal it was the truth, and was soundly booed.

[Roogsy]

With regards to our current performance, I'd like to point out a couple of numbers that put an 0-4 start in perspective.

In order to qualify for playoffs, we will likely need at least 45 points, the benchmark set last year for playoffs was 46.

In order to reach 45 points, we will need to play at a 1.5 points per game clip. For points like that, we need a record of something like (W-D-L):

13-6-11
12-9-9
11-12-7
10-15-5
9-18-3

And that is to JUST squeak into a playoff spot in the 10th position.

IF we lose against Chivas this Saturday or if we fail to score a win in either of the next 2 games (the following being RSL) all of sudden we will need to score at a 1.60 points per game clip.

How hard is that?

Let's put it this way. The top 4 teams in the league last year finished with a 1.56 or higher PPG. Meaning we'd have to play like a top 4 team the entire rest of the season just to qualify for the final playoff spot.

And to put it in even better perspective, TFC has never won more than 9 games in a single season.

That's what a bad start to the season does to your playoff chances. It puts enormous amounts of pressure on the remainder of the season. It's unbelievable the effect the first few games has but it leaves no room for error the rest of the way.

So those of us who are very upset with this start aren't doing so because we like being the Harbingers of Doom, but a cold dose of reality tells us all that there is plenty of reason to be worried. We need full points in 1 of the next two games or our MLS season is almost over before it even starts.

I realize people are weighing CCL as more "important" and it very well could be from a purist "football" perspective. But the reality is that we give the CCL more prestige because it shares similar elements to the UEFA and CONMEBOL versions, not because in and of itself it is actually more prestigious. The Canadian allocation into the tournament is almost a gift (for whatever team that is in it, not just TFC). What else can you call the entry if you play 4 games and get awarded the title of "champion"? Regardless, if you place more importance on that tournament and want the team to do well, I have no problems with that. But I simply cannot agree that the NCC and the CCL are more accurate reflections of the state of this team than the league is. I measure this team's performance on league results, not the 4, 10 or 12 games we play a year in NCC/CCL.

[Abou Sky]

13-6-11
12-9-9
11-12-7
10-15-5
9-18-3

I don't think any of the bolded are impossible.

There is also the fact that it is NOT the top 10 teams, they take from each division.

Now that a lot more intra-division games are going to be played, if we see NYRB and SKC keep on rocking we could have some crazy skewed result where as few as 40pts get you into the playoffs.

Of course it would be nice if we already had 4-6 points.

[Canary10]

Roogsy gave as good an argument as I've seen. The MLS start has been a disaster.

[Roogsy]

I don't think any of the bolded are impossible.

There is also the fact that it is NOT the top 10 teams, they take from each division.

Now that a lot more intra-division games are going to be played, if we see NYRB and SKC keep on rocking we could have some crazy skewed result where as few as 40pts get you into the playoffs.

Of course it would be nice if we already had 4-6 points.

No, not impossible. But extremely difficult. Remember my point that TFC has never won in the double digits. Under this scenario, we now HAVE to win minimum 10 games in the 30 game schedule that is left. That means we HAVE to win 1 out of every 3 games. Considering the number of away games are equal to the number of home games left, it makes it even more difficult. It would be easier if we had a slight home game advantage.

We also have to keep losses to a minimum. You don't have to win 13 games if you draw a heckuvalot on the road. I think the 12-9-9 or the 11-12-7 records are the most reachable. I don't think we are going to win 13 games and I sure don't think we are going to only lose 3 more games in the entire season. So these 2 records are the most reachable I think. But even then, that means any losses will be extremely damaging to our chances, moreso than usual.

Like I said, we need to be a top 4 team the rest of the way just to make the playoffs in the final spots. Do you think we will be able to achieve kind of performance for thirty games?

Possible? Yes.

Likely? I say no.

[trane]

^ The numbers do not lie. Bottom line that after all the time we have had starting 0-4 against beatable opponents is not acceptable.

[mastermixer]

No, not impossible. But extremely difficult. Remember my point that TFC has never won in the double digits. Under this scenario, we now HAVE to win minimum 10 games in the 30 game schedule that is left. That means we HAVE to win 1 out of every 3 games. Considering the number of away games are equal to the number of home games left, it makes it even more difficult. It would be easier if we had a slight home game advantage.

We also have to keep losses to a minimum. You don't have to win 13 games if you draw a heckuvalot on the road. I think the 12-9-9 or the 11-12-7 records are the most reachable. I don't think we are going to win 13 games and I sure don't think we are going to only lose 3 more games in the entire season. So these 2 records are the most reachable I think. But even then, that means any losses will be extremely damaging to our chances, moreso than usual.

Like I said, we need to be a top 4 team the rest of the way just to make the playoffs in the final spots. Do you think we will be able to achieve kind of performance for thirty games?

Possible? Yes.

Likely? I say no.

Your rationality is making me very angry... g:D

[T-boy]

I agree with Roogsy 100%

We have already given us a mountain to climb. It's not impossible, but its a lot less easy than if we had 6 point on the table already!

And if we don't get at LEAST 3 points in the next 2 home games, then we are going to need to beat some of the best teams away from home, AND be unbeaten (or as near as possible) at home for the rest of the season.

It's not IMPOSSIBLE, but I'd say its improbably!

[joeyjones]

not that it makes much of a difference, but we won 10 games in 2009

[jabbronies]

Pls don't say Messi. Xavi is the reason Messi is Messi.

I'm sure there has been a game or two where is was all Messi, I can't give a specific examplebecause I don't really follow Barca at all to know.

But I can name a few other players who have come up with performances that have basically carried teams in games: Micheal Jordan ('92 final game), Curtus Joseph (92 playoffs), Roger Clemens (20 strikeout game)

Obviously there are key players to a individuals success, but c'mon let's not get so picky and say "oh if he were the only player on the field, would he have scored at all." That's an obvious NO. But there are games where a single player can be pointed to for success of the team. "Miracle in Montreal" is one example. Sure there were 11 guys on the pitch and a couple other players scored, but can you honestly say that TFC would've won without Dero's performance.."again, this is just one example.

[Abou Sky]

TFC anthem...


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ylsj_journey-don-t-stop-believing-live_music

[Roogsy]

Ah...if I could only grow my hair like that. Just a couple of weeks long and it looks like a Gia Pet. Hence the shave. :D

The flip side of the coin is that IF we do make it into the playoffs, it will definitely be an undeniable accomplishment.

This is where you separate the men from the boys.

[Roogsy]

not that it makes much of a difference, but we won 10 games in 2009

My apologies. You are correct.

We also lost the least amount, with 11 losses.

It was our best year to date. The closest we ever got to the playoffs. But it was also the year of the debacle in NY which broke many of our hearts. It is why we went into 2010 with such high hopes.

I know for me personally, these two years are what I feel exemplify what went wrong with TFC. We had a very good foundation. Smart moves by management could have made us contenders. Instead, every move they made thereafter was the wrong one and did unspeakable damage to this team.

[Red Rat]

Pls don't say Messi. Xavi is the reason Messi is Messi.
sorry sir, wrong.
but go on with the topic

[Abou Sky]

My apologies. You are correct.

We also lost the least amount, with 11 losses.

It was our best year to date. The closest we ever got to the playoffs. But it was also the year of the debacle in NY which broke many of our hearts. It is why we went into 2010 with such high hopes.

I know for me personally, these two years are what I feel exemplify what went wrong with TFC. We had a very good foundation. Smart moves by management could have made us contenders. Instead, every move they made thereafter was the wrong one and did unspeakable damage to this team.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzBgR0UoYo

[Abou Sky]

sorry sir, wrong.
but go on with the topic

Ok, Iniesta too.

[Red Rat]

Ok, Iniesta too.
would you like to discuss this here.
http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?176-The-FC-Barcelona-Official-Thread-Champions-unrivaled-and-unmatched-in-history&p=1472108#post1472108

[Beach_Red]

My apologies. You are correct.

We also lost the least amount, with 11 losses.

It was our best year to date. The closest we ever got to the playoffs. But it was also the year of the debacle in NY which broke many of our hearts. It is why we went into 2010 with such high hopes.

I know for me personally, these two years are what I feel exemplify what went wrong with TFC. We had a very good foundation. Smart moves by management could have made us contenders. Instead, every move they made thereafter was the wrong one and did unspeakable damage to this team.

Well, not really unspeakable, we're talking about it every day ;). But wow, who would have ever thought 2009 was going to be the high water mark?

Still, as you say, when we make the playoffs this year it will be sweet (you did say 'when' didn't you?).

[trane]

My apologies. You are correct.

We also lost the least amount, with 11 losses.

It was our best year to date. The closest we ever got to the playoffs. But it was also the year of the debacle in NY which broke many of our hearts. It is why we went into 2010 with such high hopes.

I know for me personally, these two years are what I feel exemplify what went wrong with TFC. We had a very good foundation. Smart moves by management could have made us contenders. Instead, every move they made thereafter was the wrong one and did unspeakable damage to this team.

I remember that, in the rain, first kick and we have our patented lapse(in that game more then a lapse) of defensive concertration, from second 1 and New York runs right down our gut, past our Star DP CDM, past our, CBs and into goal. FUCK ME. Yeah, that broke my heart, and proved every fear that I had correct. That there is something rotten at the chore of our organizations, to allow such performances on a repeat basis. That could have been our worst game EVER.

[jaxul]

TACTICS - 2

He has good ideas formation-wise but some of his starter choices have baffled me along with the dreaded high D-line at the most inopportune moments.

RESULTS - 2

Should have won against Columbus and San Jose in my opinion. Both bad losses at home. The CCL performance raised this grade to a 2 for me.

EFFICIENCY - 3

At times he made something out of nothing. Let's face it we are not the most talented squad in the MLS but he has found some ways around it that proved to be successful to some extent in the CCL.

COMMUNICATION - 2

Like all MLSE coaches, his statements are very general and not harsh enough in some cases. He often justifies his lineup with lines such as "I have confidence in Harden." Well I think he should expand as to why he feels that way.


TRADES & MISC - 1

To me this is the biggest thing. A few bad contracts and a few underachievers make up the majority of our squad. I believe a lot more could have been done during the off season. If there are Brazilian players willing to go to sub-par leagues in Eastern Europe, I am sure a few of them would not mind playing up here.

Overall: 2 - LOTS of room for improvement!

[ManUtd4ever]

No, not impossible. But extremely difficult. Remember my point that TFC has never won in the double digits. Under this scenario, we now HAVE to win minimum 10 games in the 30 game schedule that is left. That means we HAVE to win 1 out of every 3 games. Considering the number of away games are equal to the number of home games left, it makes it even more difficult. It would be easier if we had a slight home game advantage.

We also have to keep losses to a minimum. You don't have to win 13 games if you draw a heckuvalot on the road. I think the 12-9-9 or the 11-12-7 records are the most reachable. I don't think we are going to win 13 games and I sure don't think we are going to only lose 3 more games in the entire season. So these 2 records are the most reachable I think. But even then, that means any losses will be extremely damaging to our chances, moreso than usual.

Like I said, we need to be a top 4 team the rest of the way just to make the playoffs in the final spots. Do you think we will be able to achieve kind of performance for thirty games?

Possible? Yes.

Likely? I say no.

Agreed. It is particularly disappointing to start this MLS season on such a sour note after the club finished last season with signs of encouragement in league play and started this season with a bang in the CCL.

It seems our fate rests on the shoulders of a 37 year old world class field general. If Frings cannot stay healthy upon his return, it could unfortunately be a very long season yet again.

[__wowza]

a quick snapshot after 120 votes:

AVERAGE: 2.76 stars out of 5
55.2% approval rating (D)

this is hovering around his lowest rating since stepping into the coaching role for TFC

[brad]

While it is an overly fuzzy approach, I like his prediction model.

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html

Gives us a 9.4% chance of making the playoffs.

26% chance we finish last (19th), 17% chance we finish 18th, 12% chance we finish 17th, ect, ect.

[Abou Sky]

While it is an overly fuzzy approach, I like his prediction model.

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html

Gives us a 9.4% chance of making the playoffs.

26% chance we finish last (19th), 17% chance we finish 18th, 12% chance we finish 17th, ect, ect.

Reading it the model makes sense BUT it needs more current season data. My bet is 12-15 games in it is pretty accurate.

That said... This is soccer, where anything can happen.

We might get red hot and smoke our next 3-4 games picking up 10pts

[brad]

^^Agreed. Lack of factoring injuries was the biggest shortcoming I saw - but no way to account for that really

[Roogsy]

While it is an overly fuzzy approach, I like his prediction model.

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html

Gives us a 9.4% chance of making the playoffs.

26% chance we finish last (19th), 17% chance we finish 18th, 12% chance we finish 17th, ect, ect.

YIKES! So there is a 55% chance we finish 17th or lower??? :eek6:

[T-boy]

^^Agreed. Lack of factoring injuries was the biggest shortcoming I saw - but no way to account for that really

I "kind of agree", but not completely. It's like we are suggesting that TFC is a one player team - Frings is injured = we suck.

We have to remember that its a team sport - one player shouldn't really make THAT much difference. The injury to Frei is unfortunate, but Kocic is more than capable of playing in his place.

So, are we THAT reliant on Frings that if he is injured, then we can't play football? It should never be that way, we should be able to cope with one player missing, so I don't think its an excuse for Winter.

[brad]

I "kind of agree", but not completely. It's like we are suggesting that TFC is a one player team - Frings is injured = we suck.

We have to remember that its a team sport - one player shouldn't really make THAT much difference. The injury to Frei is unfortunate, but Kocic is more than capable of playing in his place.

So, are we THAT reliant on Frings that if he is injured, then we can't play football? It should never be that way, we should be able to cope with one player missing, so I don't think its an excuse for Winter.

In a stronger league I would agree, but in the MLS - I don't. And this is not just about TFC. Nobody has real depth in this league (except maybe RSL). Lose one or two players, and the results can suffer. We are heavily reliant on Frings. But look at LA without Gonzalez as another example. What would DC's season have looked like last year if "He who shall not be named" had gotten injured shortly after arriving?

I think any team in the MLS would have their results suffer with the loss of 2-3 key players over time.

[brad]

The other bit I would add - while a team should not be dependent on a single player (like we are with Frings), a DP should still make the team materially better when on the field. If that DP can be replaced by a regular MLS'er with no real impact on the results, I would say you are wasting your money on that DP (assuming marketing value is not at play).

[Abou Sky]

In a stronger league I would agree, but in the MLS - I don't. And this is not just about TFC. Nobody has real depth in this league (except maybe RSL). Lose one or two players, and the results can suffer. We are heavily reliant on Frings. But look at LA without Gonzalez as another example. What would DC's season have looked like last year if "He who shall not be named" had gotten injured shortly after arriving?

I think any team in the MLS would have their results suffer with the loss of 2-3 key players over time.

Agreed, I think NYRB is the most comparable example. If they lost Henri and Marquez (sp?) what would they be?

I know Frei isn't a $4m player, but the team lost both the captain and vice-captain. Kocic can replace Frei in net, but he can't replace his leadership. If Frei were not injured I would bet he would have been playing every game that Frings is out because of his LEADERSHIP ability.

[ag futbol]

I "kind of agree", but not completely. It's like we are suggesting that TFC is a one player team - Frings is injured = we suck.

We have to remember that its a team sport - one player shouldn't really make THAT much difference. The injury to Frei is unfortunate, but Kocic is more than capable of playing in his place.

So, are we THAT reliant on Frings that if he is injured, then we can't play football? It should never be that way, we should be able to cope with one player missing, so I don't think its an excuse for Winter.
Agree with this completely. One player (no matter how good) can't be an excuse...

Now if we were talking the difference between first place and a few spots lower, I might agree. But playoffs / no playoffs? ... not buying it.

[Abou Sky]

Agree with this completely. One player (no matter how good) can't be an excuse...

Now if we were talking the difference between first place and a few spots lower, I might agree. But playoffs / no playoffs? ... not buying it.

It ISN'T one player though, it is TWO leaders. Frei isn't the Vice-Captain for his good looks. Why wouldn't Winter have made DK or JDG or Soolsma the VC? They didn't have the leadership ability.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Frings was the marshall we needed, we DID play better because of him, not because of his talent though as so many think but because of his leadership. I would take 10 men + Frings in a wheelchair over what we have gotten so far because of leadership.

[brad]

Agree with this completely. One player (no matter how good) can't be an excuse...

Now if we were talking the difference between first place and a few spots lower, I might agree. But playoffs / no playoffs? ... not buying it.

How does first place or a few spots lower vs in the playoffs or the same few spots below and out of the playoffs differ? In both cases we are talking about a few spots differently.

In our case, we are too dependent on Frings, without a doubt. But let me ask this? Why tie up the max cap hit for a single DB if you can get more or less the same results from a non-DP regular MLS player? A good DP should = more points on the board in a given season than without. If not, you are wasting cap space.

[nascarguy]

when can I rate him for apirl and may...lol

[Alonso]

i definitely see the logic behind that however I have a prob with firing a coach and not having a decent and/or immediate back up.
Id be pissed if we fired him then bumbled along the rest of the season.


I'm thinking that this is why Thomas Rongen was brought in.... a respectable interim replacement and possible full-time coach if it works out.

I hope they give Winter the whole season though... in my mind its only fair.

[Alonso]

Nigel Reed threw out a statistic in his article today that I had not seen before.

6 wins in 38 MLS games. :eek6:

I don't care if you did have to rebuild last year, that statistic is disgusting.

If he does not have a better month in April, my rating will most definitely drop.


That is pretty appalling, he must have a great go of the next 10 games or shit is going to hit the fan.

[ag futbol]

It ISN'T one player though, it is TWO leaders. Frei isn't the Vice-Captain for his good looks. Why wouldn't Winter have made DK or JDG or Soolsma the VC? They didn't have the leadership ability.
I can agree with you somewhat on Frings leadership ... For Frei, this is the same guy who was clearly battling with Kocic to keep his sport in the starting lineup and made some glaring errors in a few games. Combine that with the rumors that were swirling that he's on the block and I don't think the coaching staff would give the same account of him being a necessity in our starting lineup.


How does first place or a few spots lower vs in the playoffs or the same few spots below and out of the playoffs differ? In both cases we are talking about a few spots differently.

In our case, we are too dependent on Frings, without a doubt. But let me ask this? Why tie up the max cap hit for a single DB if you can get more or less the same results from a non-DP regular MLS player? A good DP should = more points on the board in a given season than without. If not, you are wasting cap space.
Because if we're going to extrapolate our current situation, we are a few games from being simply bad as opposed to terrible. Saying we'd jump from non-contention to contention based on our current form is a huge stretch.

I don't disagree with the second part of what you wrote, although I'm not sure if you're advocating the DP CB or not.

[Roogsy]

Agreed, I think NYRB is the most comparable example. If they lost Henri and Marquez (sp?) what would they be?

I know Frei isn't a $4m player, but the team lost both the captain and vice-captain. Kocic can replace Frei in net, but he can't replace his leadership. If Frei were not injured I would bet he would have been playing every game that Frings is out because of his LEADERSHIP ability.

Backe's NYRB sans Henry & Marquez have a winning record FYI.

[T-boy]

Backe's NYRB sans Henry & Marquez have a winning record FYI.

Plus the form of Cooper is scaring me so far this season.

NYRB would have to lose half their first team players through injury to make them play as badly as TFC right now!

[Roogsy]

It's a point I made last year & it's one I continue to believe. The best use of a DP is not to take a shitty team and make them somewhat better than garbage. FIRST you build a competent, balanced team, THEN you add DPs as the missing piece to take them over the top. I didn't believe Winter did it last year and I still don't think he's done it. Unless someone can point to evidence that this team is capable of staying out of the bottom portion of the table without their DPs I think the evidence continues to build that management is not capable of managing MLS calibre players effectively and require the crutch of European DPs to make the team less of a joke. The problem of course is that you can't sign more than 3 DPs and expectations should be higher than "not crap" when you've maxed out these slots. But when you haven't built the rest of the team well...even 3 DPs can't cover over that and when your most effective player goes down, it provides insight into that fact. If you're paying attention that is.

[Oldtimer]

Sortsclubstats is notoriously inaccurate at the start of the season. For example, 2 years ago after one month, they gave the Jays a 94% chance of making the post-season. We know how that ended.

That being said, there is a major uphill climb to make the post-season. The team will have to have a good run to make it.
LA is in the same boat. Missing one defender has put them in a terrible spot, so the difference between Champions and failure is pretty slim.

With the poor defense, none of us thought there was an MLS Cup in store this season. However, quite a few of us thought squeaking into the playoffs was likely. That's seeming less-and-less possible now, even in a weak Eastern conference.

[Fort York Redcoat]

AVERAGE: 2.76 stars out of 5
55.2% approval rating (D)

this is hovering around his lowest rating since stepping into the coaching role for TFC


55.2%.

I think that's also the probability of me bumping this thread in a month, two month, and three months time to see how positive it looked because of CCL. It'll be refreshing.