Lack of professionalism on TFC?

[jabbronies]

After listening to the post game interviews for this game and last, there seems to be a re-occuring problem that the players and coaches keep bringing up.

Lack of profressionalism..Lack of trying...

What are your thoughts on this?

[DoubleUp]

I believe its torontos curse having our sports enviroment so polite and nice that the athletes kinda forget why they are here.



like if I said Koevs is overweight and out of shape, and hosing our money.


Somebody would jump to his defence, coddle him and comeup with excuses to why our million dollar strike is performing no better than RJ(who been playing the part of big bank).

The type of enviroment that has convinced the entire city that reimer is a premier goaltender
and not somebody that was hot 2 seasons ago.


Or that if the raptors draft the most unathletic goy out of the draft it will make our team better.

The bottom line is our sporting enviroment is a joke, Canadas wonderland for athletes.............zero accoutability just another face passing the Buck, the puck or the ball.

-Doubleup

[ag futbol]

I agree that was a theme ... in the past. I don't want to pass any judgement on the current group.

For our previous coaches: we had a terribly flawed system of checks-and-balances where a complete idiot was given too much power. The other thing was that 3/4 guys we hired has zero head coaching experience prior to Toronto FC.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Professionalism starts from the leadership down. I think TFC has taken steps in the right direction to becoming a better franchise.

[jazzy]

this will do or curse of toronto,..I am at a complete f##kin loss,...I do know the curse of the leafs has
finally settled as Many fans arrived late and MANY fans left way to early , although who can blame them ...A f##king home opener that we were definitely not a team...

[jabbronies]

I believe its torontos curse having our sports enviroment so polite and nice that the athletes kinda forget why they are here.



like if I said Koevs is overweight and out of shape, and hosing our money.


Somebody would jump to his defence, coddle him and comeup with excuses to why our million dollar strike is performing no better than RJ(who been playing the part of big bank).

The type of enviroment that has convinced the entire city that reimer is a premier goaltender
and not somebody that was hot 2 seasons ago.


Or that if the raptors draft the most unathletic goy out of the draft it will make our team better.

The bottom line is our sporting enviroment is a joke, Canadas wonderland for athletes.............zero accoutability just another face passing the Buck, the puck or the ball.

-Doubleup

Without taking the exact examples you gave, there is some truth in this.
However, supporters will be supporters and come to the defense of the player, however as a professional the player shouldn't and wouldn't even pay attention to this type of stuff.

If there is a player who isn't living up to work ethics I hope Winter can do something about it. I think he can do it with the help of DeClerk.

i wonder who it is.

[jabbronies]

I agree that was a theme ... in the past. I don't want to pass any judgement on the current group.

For our previous coaches: we had a terribly flawed system of checks-and-balances where a complete idiot was given too much power. The other thing was that 3/4 guys we hired has zero head coaching experience prior to Toronto FC.

Eckersley said it in the post game, Winter has said in twice in two weeks. I remember another interview last week...maybe the week before for LA - someone said it.
It has nothing to do with previous Toronto teams.

This happens on every team. Its just the outcome depends on how the coach can deal with it.
Do you think Winter can deal with this?

[ag futbol]

Eckersley said it in the post game, Winter has said in twice in two weeks. I remember another interview last week...maybe the week before for LA - someone said it.
It has nothing to do with previous Toronto teams.

This happens on every team. Its just the outcome depends on how the coach can deal with it.
Do you think Winter can deal with this?
Can you be more specific about what was said, like the context of the quotes? Sorry, I missed this.

[jabbronies]

Can you be more specific about what was said, like the context of the quotes? Sorry, I missed this.

Winter Last Week:http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/03/18/postgame-aron-winter
Winter This Week: http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/03/24/postgame-aron-winter

Eckersley: http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/03/24/postgame-richard-eckersley

[Ratven]

I agree with this. Fan culture in Toronto has a very passive aggressive way of not holding players accountable for poor effort and giving everyone the benefit of the doubt until it's way too late. Lacking the skill is one thing, but lacking effort is entirely different and there should be no excuse for it.

[iy12l]

Aron is a youth coach, hes not good enough to be a head coach of a team. his tactics are way off, he gives shit players more playing time than they should be getting, and i takes him so long to realize whos good. It will take him by June to realize that Burgos is better than duncefield, and Emory/Doneil is better than harden

[razor787]

This talk of fans not holding the players accountable reminds me about something DeGuzman had said in an interview after he got here.

After the first away loss while he was on the team (4-1 in New England) Julian asked the other players what to expect from the fans after the game. The article states that in Germany, fans would sit cross legged infront of the bus, and not let it leave until they have answers. In spain the fans would go from worshiping you one game, to telling you you suck the next.

Maybe thats something we need to think about. Support the boys while they are on the pitch, but if they don't deliver, wait around after the game, and demand answers as they walk out the door. Losing the game is bad enough, but having the accountability of having to answer to us after the game may make them step up their game that little bit more. Being nice and passive hasn't gotten us anywhere, so maybe it's time for a new approach to losses.

Here is the article - http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/795437--tfc-s-de-guzman-experiencing-soccer-culture-shock

[Roogsy]

It's not just players that need to be accountable.

[Red Rat]

funny you say this Roogsy, today I completely agree with you.

[jabbronies]

It's not just players that need to be accountable.

Who else? it's up to the player to make the effort. you can't always blame the coach. But if the coach doesn't do something about it, then there's a problem.

We are 2 games into the new season with a bunch of young players. I wouldn't start a witch hunt yet. That's starts in June/July IMO

[Roogsy]

And that right there is the problem with the Toronto fan, when accountability is equated to a witch-hunt.

[jabbronies]

Of course it is a witch hunt. It's a witch hunt in every major football league in the world. Not just in Toronto..

[Walms]

This talk of fans not holding the players accountable reminds me about something DeGuzman had said in an interview after he got here.

After the first away loss while he was on the team (4-1 in New England) Julian asked the other players what to expect from the fans after the game. The article states that in Germany, fans would sit cross legged infront of the bus, and not let it leave until they have answers. In spain the fans would go from worshiping you one game, to telling you you suck the next.

Maybe thats something we need to think about. Support the boys while they are on the pitch, but if they don't deliver, wait around after the game, and demand answers as they walk out the door. Losing the game is bad enough, but having the accountability of having to answer to us after the game may make them step up their game that little bit more. Being nice and passive hasn't gotten us anywhere, so maybe it's time for a new approach to losses.

Here is the article - http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/795437--tfc-s-de-guzman-experiencing-soccer-culture-shock

Interesting, I like the idea

[denime]

This talk of fans not holding the players accountable reminds me about something DeGuzman had said in an interview after he got here.

After the first away loss while he was on the team (4-1 in New England) Julian asked the other players what to expect from the fans after the game. The article states that in Germany, fans would sit cross legged infront of the bus, and not let it leave until they have answers. In spain the fans would go from worshiping you one game, to telling you you suck the next.

Maybe thats something we need to think about. Support the boys while they are on the pitch, but if they don't deliver, wait around after the game, and demand answers as they walk out the door. Losing the game is bad enough, but having the accountability of having to answer to us after the game may make them step up their game that little bit more. Being nice and passive hasn't gotten us anywhere, so maybe it's time for a new approach to losses.

Here is the article - http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/795437--tfc-s-de-guzman-experiencing-soccer-culture-shock


Interesting, I like the idea

You like the idea of fans sitting cross legged in front of the bus, and not let it leave until they have answers. In Spain the fans would go from worshiping you one game, to telling you you suck the next,

but in other thread you find it embarrassing that fans boo the players?


It wasent the best of home openers*but the most disgraceful moment of the day took place in the 93rd minuet.*

As the whistle blew to end the match, BMO field erupted into boos.*


Sorry,I don't get what are we suppose to do now?
Not boo them after the game when they play like crap,ok,let's say it's fine with me.What instead of booing we can do?maybe we can go in front of Gate 4 and sit down in front of players bicycles and TTC bus to ask them for answers?

[ensco]

This isn't a "Toronto" thing, this is a "the combined score of our first two league games was 6-1" thing. Also it's a "we pay half our players less than $50,000" thing.

Winter has never struck me, for one second, as a guy who understands that he needs to figure out how to get the max out of guys that make $50,000 a year.

Also this is the danger of coaches with "systems" ... if they win, they're geniuses, if they lose, it's the players fault. Winter has a lot guys under the bus here.

I wonder if the team understands what will happen around here if we get pounded in Montreal like we did in Vancouver last year.

Personally, if they beat or tie Santos Laguna Wednesday, I don't actually care if they lose Saturday too.

[TFC07]

Why do we always have to be compare with Leaf fans? You don't think non-Leafs fans in Toronto don't boo and ask questions why our team sucks? Raptor fans boo their Raptors everytime Raptors play awfully. I know TFC fans in the past boo TFC after awful performance. Problem is that media doesn't ask tough questions maybe due to lack of understanding sports other than hockey.

Also when comes to MLS, I think TFC fans are only fanbase that actually boo their own club after an awful performance.

Blaming fans for lack of professionalism is laughable in the end. The issue is our media still lacks soccer IQ to ask and demand for answers even though it's their job.

[denime]

Why do we always have to be compare with Leaf fans? You don't think non-Leafs fans in Toronto don't boo and ask questions why our team sucks? Raptor fans boo their Raptors everytime Raptors play awfully. I know TFC fans in the past boo TFC after awful performance. Problem is that media doesn't ask tough questions maybe due to lack of understanding sports other than hockey.

Also when comes to MLS, I think TFC fans are only fanbase that actually boo their own club after an awful performance.

Blaming fans for lack of professionalism is laughable in the end. The issue is our media still lacks soccer IQ to ask and demand for answers even though it's their job.

See any difference?


http://i25.tinypic.com/24q96vn.jpg

[Shakes McQueen]

I think it's a bit of hometown myopia that people are convinced Toronto sports fans are any more forgiving that fans of any other team in North America. Fans of losing teams have a tendency to try and find positives to grasp onto. This isn't unique to Toronto. And Toronto fans still have tipping points, like any other - so you get boos raining down after the final whistle yesterday, you get "Fire Wilson!" chants, you get fans bearing paper bags over their heads... this is all normal.

We are never going to sit cross-legged in front of team buses, because the North American sports culture is not the same. MLS, for better or worse, is a thoroughly American-ized take on the sport of soccer. Instead of tight, organic symbiosis between team and fan, you get silly halftime interviews, studio analysts, and KIA car giveaways. Our sports don't operate on the same economic or cultural principles as soccer leagues in most of the rest of the world. Sit in front of a team bus in Kansas City, or Seattle, or Toronto, and you're more likely to be arrested than given answers - no matter whose team bus it is.

People have become so convinced that there's a sports "sickness" in Toronto, because it sounds clever, and because it's easy to say when all of your local teams aren't currently finding a modicum of success. Like most cities, there will be a "sickness" right up until there suddenly isn't any more.

- Scott

[Oldtimer]

See any difference?


http://i25.tinypic.com/24q96vn.jpg

Wow, in the Leafs example, suits abound, and you can even see some people looking at their Blackberries.

[Shakes McQueen]

See any difference?


http://i25.tinypic.com/24q96vn.jpg

This is kind of selective framing, denime. For starters, scarves are given to all TFC season ticket holders, and aren't part of hockey culture. Secondly, juxtaposing a picture of a people seated in the lower bowl at the ACC during what appears to be a break in play with the national anthem being played at BMO Field (during which the PA system tells people to raise their scarves), isnt really fair. Thirdly, BMO Field is rarely filled to that kind of brimming capacity these days.

Which isn't to say it's entirely inaccurate - game night atmosphere at the ACC isn't exactly legendary - but I could just as easily post a picture of the ACC right after the Leafs score a goal, next to a picture of a half empty BMO Field as TFC play Joe Public to a scoreless draw on a Tuesday night.

- Scott

[Kooper]

This is kind of selective framing, denime. For starters, scarves are given to all TFC season ticket holders, and aren't part of hockey culture. Secondly, juxtaposing a picture of a people seated in the lower bowl at the ACC during what appears to be a break in play with the national anthem being played at BMO Field (during which the PA system tells people to raise their scarves), isnt really fair. Thirdly, BMO Field is rarely filled to that kind of brimming capacity these days.

Which isn't to say it's entirely inaccurate - game night atmosphere at the ACC isn't exactly legendary - but I could just as easily post a picture of the ACC right after the Leafs score a goal, next to a picture of a half empty BMO Field as TFC play Joe Public to a scoreless draw on a Tuesday night.

- Scott

Agreed. If you took the photo yesterday especially after we were 3-0 down and the crap weather would have made the suits at the leaf games look like hardcore fans.

[Beach_Red]

This isn't a "Toronto" thing, this is a "the combined score of our first two league games was 6-1" thing. Also it's a "we pay half our players less than $50,000" thing.

Winter has never struck me, for one second, as a guy who understands that he needs to figure out how to get the max out of guys that make $50,000 a year.

Also this is the danger of coaches with "systems" ... if they win, they're geniuses, if they lose, it's the players fault. Winter has a lot guys under the bus here.

I wonder if the team understands what will happen around here if we get pounded in Montreal like we did in Vancouver last year.

Personally, if they beat or tie Santos Laguna Wednesday, I don't actually care if they lose Saturday too.

The interview with Yallop near halftime was interesting, the way he broke down TFC and talked about what SJ needed to do to hang on and win. And then in the second half they targeted specific defenders on their counters.

It made me wonder if the TFC coaching staff could name two players on any of the teams we face. It made be what you say about the system. TFC have never seemed to me a team that has any idea about the opposition.

[Heart of Stone]

Why isn't De Guzman in playing shape? Isn't it incumbent on a professional to be prepared to play?

[whyalwaysme11]

This isn't a "Toronto" thing, this is a "the combined score of our first two league games was 6-1" thing. Also it's a "we pay half our players less than $50,000" thing.

Winter has never struck me, for one second, as a guy who understands that he needs to figure out how to get the max out of guys that make $50,000 a year.

Also this is the danger of coaches with "systems" ... if they win, they're geniuses, if they lose, it's the players fault. Winter has a lot guys under the bus here.

I wonder if the team understands what will happen around here if we get pounded in Montreal like we did in Vancouver last year.

Personally, if they beat or tie Santos Laguna Wednesday, I don't actually care if they lose Saturday too.

tie santos? we need a solid 2 or 3 nothing win to even have a chance in mexico.

[whyalwaysme11]

This is kind of selective framing, denime. For starters, scarves are given to all TFC season ticket holders, and aren't part of hockey culture. Secondly, juxtaposing a picture of a people seated in the lower bowl at the ACC during what appears to be a break in play with the national anthem being played at BMO Field (during which the PA system tells people to raise their scarves), isnt really fair. Thirdly, BMO Field is rarely filled to that kind of brimming capacity these days.

Which isn't to say it's entirely inaccurate - game night atmosphere at the ACC isn't exactly legendary - but I could just as easily post a picture of the ACC right after the Leafs score a goal, next to a picture of a half empty BMO Field as TFC play Joe Public to a scoreless draw on a Tuesday night.

- Scott

agree Scott... there are so many other factors involved here...

[jabbronies]

This isn't a "Toronto" thing, this is a "the combined score of our first two league games was 6-1" thing. Also it's a "we pay half our players less than $50,000" thing.

Winter has never struck me, for one second, as a guy who understands that he needs to figure out how to get the max out of guys that make $50,000 a year.

Also this is the danger of coaches with "systems" ... if they win, they're geniuses, if they lose, it's the players fault. Winter has a lot guys under the bus here.

I wonder if the team understands what will happen around here if we get pounded in Montreal like we did in Vancouver last year.

Personally, if they beat or tie Santos Laguna Wednesday, I don't actually care if they lose Saturday too.

Getting back on topic...

I wonder how much of this plays a factor? I hope it doesn't because varying wages happens in every sport.

[Beach_Red]

Why isn't De Guzman in playing shape? Isn't it incumbent on a professional to be prepared to play?

Maybe he's following Kouverman's fitness plan...

[Roogsy]

Winter has never struck me, for one second, as a guy who understands that he needs to figure out how to get the max out of guys that make $50,000 a year.

This has been my POV for a long time.




Personally, if they beat or tie Santos Laguna Wednesday, I don't actually care if they lose Saturday too.

Very true. Ah the life of a football fan. I'm surprised more of us don't die from heart attacks and embellisms from the roller-coaster ride of emotions. Still, I'm always weary of counting on long-shot games to make me feel better. I'd rather be surprised.

[DangerRed]

I'd go back to what Allan Gordon told me last year after Winter gave him the boot: Winter and Ruud Gullit are the same person with the same ideas and the same inability to understand what wins games in this league. This is a league where workhorses triumph and where half the fight is being more match-fit and athletic than the other guy. It's a league where the Billy Beanes of the world, those who can spot work rate and value in otherwise unremarkable players, will win games. It's not a league for guys like Winter, who spend an off-season without ensuring that two of their three DPs are match fit because they're confident that they have a system that works. Fact is, systems don't matter when your players aren't skilled enough to execute them.

[T-boy]

^^^ agreed. That Lenhart (the striker with the giant blonde hair, if that was his name?) worked his socks off yesterday! He chased every ball, he never gave up on anything. He didn't look the best "quality" player, but his workrate was fantastic!

I didn't see anything like that from ANY TFC player yesterday!

[gomesv]

[QUOTE=Roogsy;1463505]This has been my POV for a long time.


And the best thing you have done is remain fairly quite on the subject (recently anyway).....the proof will be in the pudding.....Winter has no ability for this league, whether its strategy, finding capable players......he cant even figure out that he sits players on the bench that are better than the ones he sends out to play.....I hope others on this board will allow for the fact that you called it from the start
:D

[ag futbol]

^ meh .... that's very Chad Barrett in my opinion. SJ hasn't exactly been a model of success over the past couple of years, but they do have our number.

This league is about talent evaluation. Getting expert effort from your plumbers is great but not enough anymore. Teams like Seattle, RSL, and Los Angeles will show up and win more often than not. Not only that, but they seem to have the ability to identify new players to replaces the old ones they've lost (example: Movsisyan leaves RSL and they find Saborio).

If we are going to marry ourselves to this attack-minded formation, we are going to need a very good roster.

[gomesv]

I think it all blends in together......just for quick reference.....who would you rather have Hassli or Koevs.....I believe Hassli makes half the $$$. It's about talent evaluation and squeezing out the best of the talent you have.....Winter doesn't cut it IMHO

[jabbronies]

tie santos? we need a solid 2 or 3 nothing win to even have a chance in mexico.

You know that Santos is a far better team than TFC right? TFC really don't have a chance against them. It's a David vs Goliath type scenario for the boys in red. A tie would be satisfying for sure. A win and we should over the fucking moon.

[RealG-TFC]

I'd go back to what Allan Gordon told me last year after Winter gave him the boot: Winter and Ruud Gullit are the same person with the same ideas and the same inability to understand what wins games in this league. This is a league where workhorses triumph and where half the fight is being more match-fit and athletic than the other guy. It's a league where the Billy Beanes of the world, those who can spot work rate and value in otherwise unremarkable players, will win games. It's not a league for guys like Winter, who spend an off-season without ensuring that two of their three DPs are match fit because they're confident that they have a system that works. Fact is, systems don't matter when your players aren't skilled enough to execute them.

I don't think this is necessarily true. If you look at some successful teams like RSL and Seattle you'll notice that they play pretty entertaining football. They string passes nicely and hold possession. I agree that athleticism is perhaps more important in this league than others but I don't think it's the ultimate key to success.

[Shakes McQueen]

I think it all blends in together......just for quick reference.....who would you rather have Hassli or Koevs.....I believe Hassli makes half the $$$. It's about talent evaluation and squeezing out the best of the talent you have.....Winter doesn't cut it IMHO

Koov was lights out for us last season. I think it's hilarious that people are already turning on him. Hassli is a great player at a great price, but are we seriously going to say "why didn't WE sign that guy?" and consider it a failure every time another team strikes gold? We are one of many teams in this league, all trying to get an edge on eachother. It's going to happen.

Again - two league games guys. Two bad league games, but still two league games. And the team itself hasn't even been universally awful to start the year, as evidenced by a couple of gutsy performances in the CCL (with hopefully more to come). Still plenty of time to make amends, prove to us this is just a small dip in form , and get back on track.

Perhaps in the long run your assertions will be borne out, but it's still way too early to be making them. Two games.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Very true. Ah the life of a football fan. I'm surprised more of us don't die from heart attacks and embellisms from the roller-coaster ride of emotions. Still, I'm always weary of counting on long-shot games to make me feel better. I'd rather be surprised.

I'd love to see us continue the CCL party for as long as possible, but I have to say - I don't think that (for example) a draw against Santos will forgive any more shabby league performances, for me. I want these guys to make a statement that they have come prepared for this season. Don't kill all of the momentum that our nice ride in the CCL has given them with the fans.

Losing Seattle's home opener - especially after they got mauled by Santos - is somewhat understandable. They were mad, and wanted to make a statement. But after getting embarrassed at our own, I hope these guys come out mad for the next game. Getting showered with boos on your first home date should be a wake up call.

- Scott

[ag futbol]

I think it all blends in together......just for quick reference.....who would you rather have Hassli or Koevs.....I believe Hassli makes half the $$$. It's about talent evaluation and squeezing out the best of the talent you have.....Winter doesn't cut it IMHO
^ Sorry, that was referencing the Lenhart comment and not your post.

As for who I'd rather have... not sure. Hassli definitely had his own problems last year and continues to be a card magnet (although you have to admire his grit).

Koov was lights out for us last season. I think it's hilarious that people are already turning on him.

Nobody is turning on him, but he's taking some heat for showing up out of shape ... as he should

[ensco]

Nobody is turning on [Koevermans], but he's taking some heat for showing up out of shape ... as he should


I think, given the weather, the schedule, Koevs history of injuries, it's more likely that Winter is protecting Koevermans.

Or do you know something we don't?

[DoubleUp]

I think, given the weather, the schedule, Koevs history of injuries, it's more likely that Winter is protecting Koevermans.

Or do you know something we don't?


Protecting koevs from what??? chlidren need protecting, not your Dp striker.

Physically this league is not a walk in the park, and koevs is finding it hard because lack of mobility to get the job done. We see more from Johnson not because he is the better striker but because he is more athletic and has the speed to exploit errors in Mls defences.

I do believe bringing in a stronger more dynamic winger(dribbler):deadhorse: .................like Issey(domestic) hence why I am really adament about this move, who is familiar with the 3 attacker setup and has the ability to penatrate the box draw defenders away from Danny and ryan on the back post. I love Plata but he is to small to be counted upon as first 11 player and would be better used off the bench as an impact sub.

Kinda off topic:

But lets not wait to stop the bleeding.
9TYADF_tIhs

HujZvYb_aIo



Tell me this on the opposite side of Koevs, with johnson attacking from the right doesnt it look more mls ready?

Thank you for your time.

-Double up

[brad]

Who else? it's up to the player to make the effort. you can't always blame the coach. But if the coach doesn't do something about it, then there's a problem.

It's not always about effort. Take Harden. He's not good enough to be a starter for us, but its not for lack of trying. Harden deserves no blame IMHO for not being good enough.

You blame the coach here for playing Harden week in an week out and not addressing the lack of quality.

In the working world, blame should (but seldom does) go up the chain. The worker bees might be the ones not doing the job, but at the end of they day, the fault lies with those that hired them, kept them, and fail to motivate them. And it goes up. The manager doesn't get results because of this, then the manager is now the weak link and the same applies at their level.

[__wowza]

sometimes coaches can do everything in the world and players just don't listen.
sometimes the players step and play regardless of what the coach tells them to do.

all i know is that i never have a problem with this team when i see people are trying. if we lose 3-0 and i can honestly say we gave it a hell of an effort, that's one thing, that's when i'll vocalize my displeasure. im going to hold off my criticizing the team after the first two games of the season, even with 6 goals against us, but yeah, i ain't happy.

[T-boy]

Who else? it's up to the player to make the effort. you can't always blame the coach. But if the coach doesn't do something about it, then there's a problem.

We are 2 games into the new season with a bunch of young players. I wouldn't start a witch hunt yet. That's starts in June/July IMO

Personally I ALWAYS blame the coach! It's the coach that picks the players, its the coach who picks the team, its the coach who motivates the players, its the coach who picks the tactics. The buck ALWAYS stops at the coach IMO.

I think its always too easy for fans to pick on individual players. We have been picking on individuals since Winter has been head coach. First it was Harden ("the defense would be so much better without him"). Then it was Iro ("the defense would be so muich better....etc"). Now its Dunfield AND Harden.

Are we getting a pattern here? The pattern being that no matter WHO plays, TFC are still shipping in goals by the dozen. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the common factor in all this is that Winter is STILL the coach, and STILL picking the players and plays.

And its not like I HATE Aron Winter - I think he COULD be a good coach - but he has to fess up to his mistakes sometimes - he too easily blames the individual players after every game, just like we do. I think its time for Winter to admit that certain things about his coaching and tactics are NOT working at TFC.

[Redcoe15]

Yeah, I wasn't too happy with our team's performance this past Saturday. Having a 61-39 percent posession advantage and losing 3-0 will do that for you. :prrr:

But if they're going to shit the bed like that, it's best that it happens this early in the season instead, so that they can quickly rectify it, instead of during a key stretch drive late in the season.

[ag futbol]

sometimes coaches can do everything in the world and players just don't listen.
sometimes the players step and play regardless of what the coach tells them to do.

At the end of the day, they're his players now. I'm not exactly open to this type of logic. Part of his job was finding people he can work with.

Whoever made the comment about Harden, ie his talent vs his effort is on the money. Also, if we think we're going to start realizing our limitations and start talking more about effort: no more insanely forward tactics... I don't care how hard some of these guys try they won't be able to come up with the performances necessary to make it work.

If you want your underdogs to get results, give them a platform where they at least stand a chance.

[sashavukelich]

Personally I ALWAYS blame the coach! It's the coach that picks the players, its the coach who picks the team, its the coach who motivates the players, its the coach who picks the tactics. The buck ALWAYS stops at the coach IMO.



i'm not sure i agree with this. These players SHOULD be motivated. If they are burnt out and don't want to play, leave the sport. The Coach only has 20-30 things (totally arbitrary # i know...) he can say/do/emote to motivate players, otherwise it's up to them. They are grown men....time to grow up and win.

[T-boy]

i'm not sure i agree with this. These players SHOULD be motivated. If they are burnt out and don't want to play, leave the sport. The Coach only has 20-30 things (totally arbitrary # i know...) he can say/do/emote to motivate players, otherwise it's up to them. They are grown men....time to grow up and win.

I disagree and I'll tell you why:

There are MANY example of managers leaving a football club and a new one coming in with the SAME set of players, and getting instant changes in results.

The newest and most obvious that comes to mind is Steve Bruce leaving Sunderland and being repaced by Martin O'Neill. Sunderland under Bruce were awful, unmotivated, weren't scoring any goals, were shipping in too many, and weren't fighting at all for the ball. As SOON as O'Neill came in, everything changed. The Sunderland players looked sharp, motivated, started scoring goals for fun, and have been tight at the back. Martin O'Neill hasn't signed ANY new players for Sunderland - its the exact same players who were terrible under Bruce!

A coach makes ALL the difference to players and teams, always has done and always will.

Iknow what you are saying - that players shouldn't NEED motivating and that playing football professionally should be all that they need to be motivated - but that isn't always the case. Sometimes a coach can make a massive impact on a player, or a set of players.

The buck stops at the coach in soccer, it really does IMO.

[Roogsy]

The buck stops at the coach in soccer, it really does IMO.


I totally agree with this. And not because it's a Roogsy vs Winter thing, but because I fundamentally believe the coach has a significant impact on the performance of a soccer club and thus is just as, if not more accountable than anyone else.

And much like we criticize players, I believe coaches should not be immune to the criticism. I think many supporters give coaches too much slack considering their influence, moreso than anyone else in the club including the players, determines success or failure.

The argument that if players are not "motivated" they should leave the sport is exactly the kind of thinking that allowed TFC to have the largest player turnover in the league for so many years (losing many, many quality players that went on to have success elsewhere) and yet we endured 4 years of Mo. We were looking in the wrong spot, or more accurately, ownership were looking in the wrong spot.

We really need to learn the lessons of the Mo era sooner rather than later.

[T-boy]

I totally agree with this. And not because it's a Roogsy vs Winter thing, but because I fundamentally believe the coach has a significant impact on the performance of a club.

And much like we criticize players, I believe coaches should not be immune to the criticism. I think many supporters give coaches too much slack considering their influence, moreso than anyone else in the club including the players, determines success or failure.

I think its just very EASY to point all our fingers directly at the players, whereas the coaches, who have picked the team and style of play, and tactics, sit on the bench away from our direct gaze. I can see WHY we all blame the players (I do it as much as anyone else during game time) but really we need to look deeper into the dressing room and see where the problems really lie (ie the backroom/coaching staff). It's hard to do that sometimes when we see the players making mistakes, but its the coaches who have PICKED those players in the first place and gave them instructions.

I'm also not against Winter per say, I think he has the right "ideas" for the football club - but his stats on defense speak for themselves. And starting of this season by conceding 6 goals in 2 games really isn't helping my opinion of Winter right now, and his ability (or inability) to stop TFC conceding!

[Red Rat]

I totally agree with this. And not because it's a Roogsy vs Winter thing, but because I fundamentally believe the coach has a significant impact on the performance of a soccer club and thus is just as, if not more accountable than anyone else.

And much like we criticize players, I believe coaches should not be immune to the criticism. I think many supporters give coaches too much slack considering their influence, moreso than anyone else in the club including the players, determines success or failure.

The argument that if players are not "motivated" they should leave the sport is exactly the kind of thinking that allowed TFC to have the largest player turnover in the league for so many years (losing many, many quality players that went on to have success elsewhere) and yet we endured 4 years of Mo. We were looking in the wrong spot, or more accurately, ownership were looking in the wrong spot.

We really need to learn the lessons of the Mo era sooner rather than later.

I've started pointing to Winter at the end of last season, I don't think that he will last to his 3 year contract.

[__wowza]

I totally agree with this. And not because it's a Roogsy vs Winter thing, but because I fundamentally believe the coach has a significant impact on the performance of a soccer club and thus is just as, if not more accountable than anyone else.

And much like we criticize players, I believe coaches should not be immune to the criticism. I think many supporters give coaches too much slack considering their influence, moreso than anyone else in the club including the players, determines success or failure.

i think it's a mixture of both. having played and being an assistant coach with my old highschool, sometimes players just dont have it. sometimes it doesnt click. sometimes they play bad games. on the flipside, it can also be a coach misreading the game in their tactics or subs. no one is immune to criticism.

we live by the sword, die by the sword, and we criticize based on a game by game basis. having said that, this is the same coach and group of players that pushed us to a tie and win over the golden boys of the MLS. when the rate winter thread comes out on thursday, id like to see a fair assessment based on the past month instead of a dumpfest because of the shit show that was this weekend. this wasn't aimed at you roogs, i know where you stand on winter, i just meant in general. ive noticed a majority of posts come by what's happened the last game or two.

[gomesv]

I dont blame the coach for players showing up out of shape (Koevs, Aceval etc) they are suppose to be professionals, but I do blame the coach for first signing, then playing undeserving players. No wonder a guy like Ecks is pissed off, hes running all over the place while his chubby team mates are out of breath......screams lack of professional attitude.

[Canary10]

In my view Winter made some clear mistakes. For one, JDG was playing directly in front of the backline nearly the whole game, basically as Frings' sweeper. He is a much better player 15-20 yard up field. We lost his ball distribution, and had almost no one in the midfield for good parts of the game. The other was to start Koevermans on the bench. I get that he being rested for Wednesday, but would it not have been better to start him, possibly build a lead then sub him in the second half? We got the worst of all worlds - he played the second half so will have less rest, and we lost. That made no sense.

[Oblio2]

JDG would have been better playing with himself...in the locker room.
He'd still probably screw that up too.....and give no effort.

[Red Rat]

JDG would have been better playing with himself...in the locker room.
He'd still probably screw that up too.....and give no effort.
hahahahahahahahha

[Detroit_TFC]

In terms of having a tactical orientation Monday to Sunday, so to say (ie attempts to build a roster around a system, trying to harmonize youth through senior team training approaches, etc), Winter is head and shoulders above any previous coach. In terms of managing the 90 minutes game day (tactical adjustments, subs) I have concerns.

[Beach_Red]

In terms of having a tactical orientation Monday to Sunday, so to say (ie attempts to build a roster around a system, trying to harmonize youth through senior team training approaches, etc), Winter is head and shoulders above any previous coach. In terms of managing the 90 minutes game day (tactical adjustments, subs) I have concerns.

Well, just to play devil's advocate here, he is the only coach in the history of the team given this mandate. And that wasn't even by the team, it was by the consultant they (briefly) hired.

It's too bad he wasn't given the mandate, "Beat other MLS teams."

[AlanO]

In terms of having a tactical orientation Monday to Sunday, so to say (ie attempts to build a roster around a system, trying to harmonize youth through senior team training approaches, etc), Winter is head and shoulders above any previous coach. In terms of managing the 90 minutes game day (tactical adjustments, subs) I have concerns.
I feel the same way.

The team looks like a much more professionally run organization than at any point in its history, at least to an outsider (me) with no inside connection to the club. I also think Winter/Mariner have increased the overall level of talent on the roster to the point where it should be able to make the playoffs. Not everyone has worked out but that's part of life. We have reasonably talented players (or very talented, in Frings' case) in most of the starting 11, and our options on the bench don't make me facepalm any more.

Success or failure this year is down to the coaching staff. Saturday was a tactical loss. Winter and De Klerk need to adapt.

[T-boy]

The way I see the talent level in the squad right now, is that I think there is definitely enough talent in the squad to make the play-offs - in fact I have no doubt about that. Even our weakest links - Harden, Dunfield, are fairly decent MLS players.

That makes it so much more disappointing when you get a result like Saturday. If we have enough TALENT, then why aren't the team doing better?

If the club don't make the playoffs this season, with the level of players they now have, then there is something seriously wrong!

[jazzy]

In terms of having a tactical orientation Monday to Sunday, so to say (ie attempts to build a roster around a system, trying to harmonize youth through senior team training approaches, etc), Winter is head and shoulders above any previous coach. In terms of managing the 90 minutes game day (tactical adjustments, subs) I have concerns.

this seems fair, although if he isn't given the players and unfortunately we have a small MLS roster,.....can he be blamed. MLS is taking on concacaf, yet not expanding the roster, for an extended season this seems unreasonable.

[jloome]

If we have enough TALENT, then why aren't the team doing better?

Because talent is only part of the equation. Heart counts for a lot, killer instinct, will to win. We look tentative even when we're good. No heart.

Doesn't mean it wont' come, but we're not going to beat good teams in this league with a 2.5 goal per game back line.

[Blowing Bubbles]

I have serious misgivings about the following combination
1. playing a high defensive line
2. with slow defenders
3. without ball hawks in midfield pressing the hell out of teams

The basics of any sport are to make your opponent uncomfortable, attack their weakness, etc.

But these defensive tactics, right now at least, are doing the opposite.

Think of all the direct, pacy players in this league - and if you think what you saw with Seattle or San Jose is pace just wait till we play teams like Chicago with Oduro - these types of players are all over this league.

You're playing right into their hands - if all they're going to do all game is try and chip your backline and run past you, you're enabling them to play to their strengths (pace, directness, not needing technique).

I worry that the book is out on us and basically teams are just going to look to hit us with pace on long counters and everytime they either go offside or don't maintain possession they will just back off and get everyone behind the ball until they try it again. San Jose did this to us all day.

[Roogsy]

^ I've been thinking the same thing (about pacey players) and even if Frings comes back, I fear lingering hammy problems limiting his effectiveness. This is where Wynne would come in handy.

[ensco]

I have serious misgivings about the following combination
1. playing a high defensive line
2. with slow defenders
3. without ball hawks in midfield pressing the hell out of teams

The basics of any sport are to make your opponent uncomfortable, attack their weakness, etc.

But these defensive tactics, right now at least, are doing the opposite.

Think of all the direct, pacy players in this league - and if you think what you saw with Seattle or San Jose is pace just wait till we play teams like Chicago with Oduro - these types of players are all over this league.

You're playing right into their hands - if all they're going to do all game is try and chip your backline and run past you, you're enabling them to play to their strengths (pace, directness, not needing technique).

I worry that the book is out on us and basically teams are just going to look to hit us with pace on long counters and everytime they either go offside or don't maintain possession they will just back off and get everyone behind the ball until they try it again. San Jose did this to us all day.

Great post. LA was also playing that way, but couldn't catch a break.

[__wowza]

^ i also believe that if youre going to play like that you have to have a group of smart defenders who know how to play the offside trap by a t. even still you run the risk of the linesman blowing one or two calls.

[Detroit_TFC]

Well, just to play devil's advocate here, he is the only coach in the history of the team given this mandate. And that wasn't even by the team, it was by the consultant they (briefly) hired.

It's too bad he wasn't given the mandate, "Beat other MLS teams."

Likely Preki was given this mandate (or maybe "don't lose") but things were too out of control at that point.

[Beach_Red]

Likely Preki was given this mandate (or maybe "don't lose") but things were too out of control at that point.


Yeah, and this fits in with the discussion about 'pacey' players. We've been told since day one that MLS is a physical, athletic league, not a high skill league. Preki tried what so many hockey coaches do when coming up against teams like that - he tied to slow them down and take away that aspect of their game. It's not pretty but as lots of people said at the time, it's just step one.

Let's hope the style the team is trying to play now works a lot better.

[Roogsy]

Yeah, and this fits in with the discussion about 'pacey' players. We've been told since day one that MLS is a physical, athletic league, not a high skill league. Preki tried what so many hockey coaches do when coming up against teams like that - he tied to slow them down and take away that aspect of their game. It's not pretty but as lots of people said at the time, it's just step one.

Let's hope the style the team is trying to play now works a lot better.

To be honest, I thought Preki had the right idea (to start). A defensive mindset, and build from the back to the front. Winter is doing the opposite. He is building from the front to the back (which is another problem I have had with him).

The problem with Preki is he was an asshole who pissed everyone off (and I mean everyone) from the first day he arrived and lost the lockerroom and the boardroom. An epic feat for 10 months by anyone's standards.

[T-boy]

To be honest, I thought Preki had the right idea (to start). A defensive mindset, and build from the back to the front. Winter is doing the opposite. He is building from the front to the back (which is another problem I have had with him).

The problem with Preki is he was an asshole who pissed everyone off (and I mean everyone) from the first day he arrived and lost the lockerroom and the boardroom. An epic feat for 10 months by anyone's standards.

The problem I have with Winter's approach is that we are pretty terrible going forward as well! I wouldn't mind if we were losing games 4-5 or 3-4, but Saturday the attack looked totally blunt!

It's partly my own thing tho - I personally prefer 4-4-2, I've always loved watching a pair of strikers work with each other - so for me the 4-3-3, with one isolated striker, just isn't attractive or effective forward play.

[Canary10]

The problem I have with Winter's approach is that we are pretty terrible going forward as well! I wouldn't mind if we were losing games 4-5 or 3-4, but Saturday the attack looked totally blunt!

It's partly my own thing tho - I personally prefer 4-4-2, I've always loved watching a pair of strikers work with each other - so for me the 4-3-3, with one isolated striker, just isn't attractive or effective forward play.

4-4-2s are pretty easily undone these days. Which is why even the United States is trying to move away from it.

I agree with the post up above. They are playing a bad combination of high line with central defenders who don't have the speed to get back and lack of press up field. We were told in the offseason a deep press was coming and I haven't seen it in existence yet.

Also doesn't help that our central midfielders are playing so deep. JDG was indistinguishable from a CB on Saturday. The irony is, by dropping players back to help the defending we are getting worse defending!

[Detroit_TFC]

I go back and forth between thinking Danny K is out of shape, leading him to be ahead or behind the limited service he is getting and therefore not creating many chances, and Danny K is not getting the right service from the midfield and therefore not creating many chances. I am baffled how we can have this overload of midfield players and end up in 4-2-4 last week (yes, I know why).

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

I agree with the post up above. They are playing a bad combination of high line with central defenders who don't have the speed to get back and lack of press up field. We were told in the offseason a deep press was coming and I haven't seen it in existence yet.

I agree with you (and the others), but I am struggling because I don't see how a problem that is so obvious to someone like me could go unresolved by professionals.

[T-boy]

I go back and forth between thinking Danny K is out of shape, leading him to be ahead or behind the limited service he is getting and therefore not creating many chances, and Danny K is not getting the right service from the midfield and therefore not creating many chances. I am baffled how we can have this overload of midfield players and end up in 4-2-4 last week (yes, I know why).

I don't think Koev's is necessarily "out of shape" - I think he's perfectly IN shape for a 33 year old 6 ft 3 inch striker - but if you want to compare him to a 25 year old, then YES, Koev's in comparison is out of shape! I personally don't expect anything else from a 33 year old player, in any position in any league in the world! Rarely do you get a 33 plus year old who stays completely fit an injury free. The Beckham's of the footballing world are extremely rare these days!

[DoubleUp]

I don't think Koev's is necessarily "out of shape" - I think he's perfectly IN shape for a 33 year old 6 ft 3 inch striker - but if you want to compare him to a 25 year old, then YES, Koev's in comparison is out of shape! I personally don't expect anything else from a 33 year old player, in any position in any league in the world! Rarely do you get a 33 plus year old who stays completely fit an injury free. The Beckham's of the footballing world are extremely rare these days!

I disagree! and again your making excuses, Paul scholes, Ryan giggs and Andriy shevchenko all older than koevs and can probably run circles around our whole squad.

[Canary10]

I agree with you (and the others), but I am struggling because I don't see how a problem that is so obvious to someone like me could go unresolved by professionals.

Well we've only had four games this season and two were good results so maybe they're not thinking it's as urgent as supporters are. I don't know. I do know our midfield has been a hollowed-out crater for a few weeks now.

[Yohan]

I disagree! and again your making excuses, Paul scholes, Ryan giggs and Andriy shevchenko all older than koevs and can probably run circles around our whole squad.

Sheva, no. The others you listed are exceptions to the norm

[TFCBarrie]

I disagree! and again your making excuses, Paul scholes, Ryan giggs and Andriy shevchenko all older than koevs and can probably run circles around our whole squad.

you just named 3 out of ten's of thousands. even if you named 1000 out of 10,000, that's an incredibly small number of older players who are fit and can stay fit.

[T-boy]

Sheva, no. The others you listed are exceptions to the norm

Agreed. It does take a quite exceptional ATHLETE to compete at the highest level way into the mid 30's.

We can already see in Frings that he's clearly lost his pace and especially his pace over the first 5 yards of sprinting.

I don't think its an excuse - I think its a valid point - its only the exceptional athletes who can compete in ANY sport way into their 30's.

Scholes, Giggs, Beckham are all very much exceptional footballers. No disrespect to Koev's, but he's not in ANY of their leagues as far as athleticism or talent is concerned! It would be QUITE normal for a 33 year old 6 ft 3 inch striker to not be as fit as he used to be.

[Beach_Red]

Agreed. It does take a quite exceptional ATHLETE to compete at the highest level way into the mid 30's.

We can already see in Frings that he's clearly lost his pace and especially his pace over the first 5 yards of sprinting.

I don't think its an excuse - I think its a valid point - its only the exceptional athletes who can compete in ANY sport way into their 30's.

Scholes, Giggs, Beckham are all very much exceptional footballers. No disrespect to Koev's, but he's not in ANY of their leagues as far as athleticism or talent is concerned! It would be QUITE normal for a 33 year old 6 ft 3 inch striker to not be as fit as he used to be.


Well, no one was expecting Kouves to compete at the highest level, just at the MLS level. Still, it sometimes seems as if TFC management is still underestimating what that level is.

[T-boy]

Well, no one was expecting Kouves to compete at the highest level, just at the MLS level. Still, it sometimes seems as if TFC management is still underestimating what that level is.

I think Koev's is well capable of competing at MLS level. I think his problem is going to be playing 40 games in 6 months.

Winter doesn't really have any strength in depth at centre forward right now. When Koev's doesn't play, we only have Johnson - and he's not really a "strong centre forward". We really need another 6ft plus striker at the club so Koev's doesn't have to play every week. We really are lacking depth behind him right now.

[DoubleUp]

Dero, angel and thierry henry

stop trying to disapprove me and lets call a spade a spade.

damn this forum sometimes

[TFCBarrie]

Dero, angel and thierry henry

stop trying to disapprove me and lets call a spade a spade.

damn this forum sometimes

but, you're wrong.

[Canary10]

30 is over the hill in football terms. Players at their prime in their mid-20s, earlier than a lot of other sports.

Having said that, Koevermans never made his mark by beating people with speed. He does it with intelligent runs and finishing when the chances come. He was fantastic last year. He's not lost it this year. He just needs that first goal to get him going.

[Roogsy]

you just named 3 out of ten's of thousands. even if you named 1000 out of 10,000, that's an incredibly small number of older players who are fit and can stay fit.

Then you pay a million bucks to the exception cases, not the norm. If we are paying Koevs a million bucks per season, I expect him to be one of those exceptions. You don't pay a million bucks to someone who is just like everyone else.

[DoubleUp]

but, you're wrong.

How am I wrong when everyone named is the same age as or older than danny and all in bettershape, how am I wrong please explain.

[Canary10]

^ You're wrong in your basic premise that Danny is out of shape and that's why he's not scoring. You're ignoring what has made him a good player all this time, and it's not speed.

[DoubleUp]

Then you pay a million bucks to the exception cases, not the norm. If we are paying Koevs a million bucks per season, I expect him to be one of those exceptions. You don't pay a million bucks to someone who is just like everyone else.


atleast somebody doesnt live in wonderland
:facepalm:

[DoubleUp]

^ You're wrong in your basic premise that Danny is out of shape and that's why he's not scoring. You're ignoring what has made him a good player all this time, and it's not speed.


Danny is out of shape and its causing him to not perform at optimal levels, which results in wayward touch and inability to get the ball in the back of the net......for 1million plus dollars.

and are you guys a gang? I respond to one and another responds.

[Canary10]

^ Everyone said he was out of shape last year and he scored like a bat out of hell.

[Canary10]

I've seen him up close this year and he's in better shape now than he was last year for sure.

[Brooker]

Seasons barely started and people are shitting on Danny K already and calling him a waste of money? Sounds about right for this place. :)

[T-boy]

Dero, angel and thierry henry

stop trying to disapprove me and lets call a spade a spade.

damn this forum sometimes

You aren't proving anything by naming some of the BEST footballers of all time who happen to be quite an exception to the norm (...and Dero!).

You're argument is like saying "all american's are smart because Barack Obama is"! You are making a vast generalisation, and naming a minority of footballers wheras its tha majority of cases that are more normal.

It is QUITE normal for an over 30 year old player, ESPECIALLY a striker, to be less fit than he used to be.

Although I agree with Roogsy that Koev's SHOULD be one of these exceptions - I also think that we are paying Koev's the $$$ because of his natural talent and his experience, moreso than paying for an athlete in his prime. Just like we are paying Frings for his experience and leadership MORE than his pace, which he has clearly lost.

The issue though, is that if ANY football club has older/veteran players, they must have strength in depth to cover for when they are inevitably injured or out of shape.

[DoubleUp]

Seasons barely started and people are shitting on Danny K already and calling him a waste of money? Sounds about right for this place. :)
nobody is shitting on danny we are saying he is out of shape and needs to fix that so he is not hosing the money.

Stop coddling him and allow him be accountable.

and canary: that was last year, he was new to the league and teams did not know his playing style/preferance, now its a year later he's a year older and needs to work that much harder to be effective.


I love koevs but he's a shadow right now to the player we signed and thats it.

No hate! just truth.

[Canary10]

Not sure if anyone saw the New York Red Bulls game at BMO last year, but Henry looked downright schlubby. Didn't see him scoring too much this year either until last week. Strikers go in streaks. That's part of the game. Writing Koevermans off now is foolish.

[Canary10]

nobody is shitting on danny we are saying he is out of shape and needs to fix that so he is not hosing the money.

Stop coddling him and allow him be accountable.

and canary: that was last year, he was new to the league and teams did not know his playing style/preferance, now its a year later he's a year older and needs to work that much harder to be effective.


I love koevs but he's a shadow right now to the player we signed and thats it.

No hate! just truth.

Well, he does need to score, I completely agree with you there. Don't think it's a fitness issue personally, but I don't disagree with expecting results from top players. I'm sure DC is doing the same raking over the coals with DeRo right now!

[Roogsy]

Danny is out of shape and its causing him to not perform at optimal levels, which results in wayward touch and inability to get the ball in the back of the net......for 1million plus dollars.

and are you guys a gang? I respond to one and another responds.

Welcome to the boards.

By the way, I am not agreeing if he is out of shape or not. I have always believed strikers are streaky so I won't say whether or not Danny K is out of shape. But if he is, there is no excuse for it.


^ Everyone said he was out of shape last year and he scored like a bat out of hell.


I've seen him up close this year and he's in better shape now than he was last year for sure.

I don't remember anyone saying he was out of shape last year, only that both DPs needed time to get into form. Otherwise, I don't recall Danny K's fitness to be mentioned at all.

And as I mention above, I have no idea if he is in shape or not this year. There have been several posters that have referred to his lack of fitness as reason for his lack of goals so far. I have no idea. His impact has definitely been minimal but I don't know enough to comment on why. Maybe he is out of shape? Maybe not. But if he is out of shape, his age is definitely no excuse.

[Roogsy]

Well, he does need to score, I completely agree with you there. Don't think it's a fitness issue personally, but I don't disagree with expecting results from top players. I'm sure DC is doing the same raking over the coals with DeRo right now!

DeRo is not the big concern in DC right now. He's probably been their best player to start the year. Definitely the most dangerous.

[Canary10]

^ Well maybe I'm wrong. I seem to remember his fitness coming up regularly last year.

Anyway, whatever. The fitness issue is taking away from what is really a valid point. He needs to put some balls in the net.

[DoubleUp]

Thanks roogsy! I just want eeverybody to know we're all here for Tfc and players/staff come and go.

Basically we're all on the same side.

[Roogsy]

^ Well maybe I'm wrong. I seem to remember his fitness coming up regularly last year.

Anyway, whatever. The fitness issue is taking away from what is really a valid point. He needs to put some balls in the net.


Absolutely. And DoubleUp's opinion is that it's his fitness that is obstructing his putting balls in the net, which would then indeed be a problem. It would be unacceptable for him to show up in anything other than optimal shape, appropriate for whatever age of course but still as a professional footballer.

If it's not his fitness, then Winter needs to figure out how to get his striker going. With one DP out, they don't need their other DP on a cold streak.

I for one believe taking the players to the rippers does a world of good. I volunteer to take them...

[Beach_Red]

Not sure if anyone saw the New York Red Bulls game at BMO last year, but Henry looked downright schlubby. Didn't see him scoring too much this year either until last week. Strikers go in streaks. That's part of the game. Writing Koevermans off now is foolish.

Well, I hope no one is writing him off. We're a little frustrated so far, that's all. When he came on at the half against SJ with the game at 1-0 we were probably all thinking he'd score and it would be a very different game. He didn't look dangerous at all and peoples' frustration showed. But it's early and he will score plenty this year.

[T-boy]

^ Well maybe I'm wrong. I seem to remember his fitness coming up regularly last year.

Anyway, whatever. The fitness issue is taking away from what is really a valid point. He needs to put some balls in the net.

I don't think TFC have put ANY decent crosses into him yet, in any of the games. Danny is a sniffer-dog type striker - he prays on good crosses and loose balls in the penalty area. As soon as we se a semi-decent ball into him, he will score a goal, I have no doubt.

No amount of fitness can take away Danny's natural instinct to be 'in the right place at the right time' to pounce on crosses and ball into the box.

[T-boy]

Also, I see Danny as a Darren Bent/Gary Lineker type striker - you aren't going to see him sprinting around like Paul Dickov or Chad Barrett - danny is a pure penalty area striker. And those types of strikers DO go on scoring streaks - its just the way they work.

[__wowza]

nobody is shitting on danny we are saying he is out of shape and needs to fix that so he is not hosing the money.

Stop coddling him and allow him be accountable.


he had a fantastic strike rate last year, we were singing his praises, and he looked way worse.
lest we forget it was LA doubling up on him that allowed johnson/soolsma to be so effective in space.

ill admit that im not pleased seeing him start 46' minutes in for defenders in both league games, but im also not ready to condemn the man just yet. in a couple of games, we'll talk, but now i'll remain in the middle of the issue.

[jabbronies]

I don't think people are calling DannyK fitness into question. It's his form.
A Player can run for 90 minutes straight and not break a sweat, but that doesn't mean he know where to be and how to put the ball in the back of the net or he has two left feet and can't control the ball for shit.

I think DK isn't 100% on form. He has made some great plays to set guys up with no results, but I'd say his play is only about 60% right now. It has nothing to do with fitness and everything to do with form. Getting into the right places at the right times to get the ball, pass the ball etc. Even the decisions he makes contributes to his form.

For some reason he isn't being used fully - the coaching staff may see this lack of form as well? Maybe it's not a lack of form and they are saving him for CCL to see how well they fair in that competition? he isn't an off the bench player a la Ole Gunner Solskaer or Chicurito who both come off the bench with a blaze of fire and make an impact. DK is more of an over the full game type of player who will be consistent for 90 minutes

[T-boy]

I don't agree about Danny's form. Just because he hasn't scored, doesn't mean he isn't on form!

Kocic has let in, I think 5 goals in 2 games now, but does that mean he's not on form? No, he's been in outstanding form!

Goals don't always indicate form, and Danny has been linking play and playing a difficult (and overmarked) striker roll.

Winter's decision to drop Danny was a very strange one last Saturday, and I think we need to be questioning Winter's decision much more than Danny's "form".

[jloome]

It's not his shape, it's his form, and a resulting lack of confidence. He's had a post, a crossbar and missed a sitter in LA. Winter is playing it carefully, that's all. The question, based on some of Danny's comments on tfc tv about winter still having to show he can be a great coach, is whether he resents winter's decision.

Given that Johnson is blossoming, he may have some ego/confidence issues going on right now.

[Thomas]

Its the same story we keep hearing. The season has just started and the sky is falling.


I've seen him up close this year and he's in better shape now than he was last year for sure.