2.5 Million Canadians Watched Whitecaps vs. Impact

[TFC/Everton]

:canada:

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/mls/story/?id=390161

Toronto, ON (March 12, 2012) – Saturday's highly-anticipated Major League Soccer (MLS) debut of Montreal Impact against Vancouver Whitecaps FC was the most-watched MLS game ever in Canada. Overnight data from BBM Canada confirms that an average audience of 541,000 viewers watched the all-Canadian match-up on TSN (288,000) and RDS (253,000).

Almost 2.5 million Canadians tuned in to catch some or all of the live MLS action on TSN and RDS.

MLS action continues this Saturday (March 17) on TSN, RDS, TSN Mobile TV, and Télé Mobile RDS with the Impact's home opener against Chicago Fire at Olympic Stadium. TSN soccer experts Luke Wileman and Jason deVos tee up the game during a special pre-game show at 1:30 p.m. ET.

TSN, along with RDS, are the official broadcasters of Major League Soccer (MLS) in Canada with a national broadcast package that includes 36 games featuring Montreal Impact, Toronto FC and Vancouver Whitecaps FC. TSN also has live coverage of 22 games featuring U.S.-based teams, along with exclusive Canadian coverage of the MLS CUP Playoffs, the MLS Cup 2012 and the MLS ALL-STAR GAME.

[LittleOzzy]

I wish TSN/TSN2 had every TFC game. Would make life so much easier.

They must be thrilled with the ratings, hopefully it means more MLS soccer in the future.

[Oldtimer]

Canadian rivalries are key to high ratings.

Now with 3 teams in MLS, ratings will be a lot higher.

[flatpicker]

wow... those are impressive, and surprising numbers.

[Whoop]

Canadian rivalries are key to high ratings.

Now with 3 teams in MLS, ratings will be a lot higher.

This.

With teams in both the east and west, there should be more interest.

The highest rated games will likely be matches between the Canadian teams.

[TFC/Everton]

This proves Canada is taking the MLS seriously.

The first three games for the Canadian teams will have over 100,000 people in attendance and millions of viewers.


TFC: 47,700

Whitecaps: 21,000

Impact: 40,000 - 50,000?


How big can soccer get?

[Torontotonto]

Sky's The Limit

:canada:

[ginkster88]

Lol Usa

[TFCREDNWHITE]

This proves Canada is taking the MLS seriously.

The first three games for the Canadian teams will have over 100,000 people in attendance and millions of viewers.


TFC: 47,700

Whitecaps: 21,000

Impact: 40,000 - 50,000?


How big can soccer get?


Keep'em coming! Great news and support, now we need to keep steady stream of support!

[Beach_Red]

This proves Canada is taking the MLS seriously.

The first three games for the Canadian teams will have over 100,000 people in attendance and millions of viewers.


TFC: 47,700

Whitecaps: 21,000

Impact: 40,000 - 50,000?


How big can soccer get?

In Canada there's no reason MLS can't do as well as the CFL. They have a lot in common in that niether one is the best league for its sport in the world.

The USA is not used to a league that isn't the best in the world for its sport.

[ag futbol]

Those numbers are off the charts. If we could have a new team debut every weekend then we'd be talking, haha.

The best part is really that it was a good game from start to finish. I think any fan of the game could walk away from that match happy. Now let's just hope they aren't playing @ New England next week, because when that happens the quality goes from D1 to D7.

[kodiakTFC]

In Canada there's no reason MLS can't do as well as the CFL. They have a lot in common in that niether one is the best league for its sport in the world.

The USA is not used to a league that isn't the best in the world for its sport.

I use the CFL comparison a lot, I really think MLS can learn a lot from them.

[Redcoe15]

:eek: WOAH!

Wonder what the numbers will be like next month when TFC plays in Montreal?

[CSO_BBTB]

In Canada there's no reason MLS can't do as well as the CFL.

After the three large metropolitan areas there is a step down in population size and the demographics are different in a way that favours the CFL rather than soccer. If there were three more cities like Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal we would probably be better off having our own league.

[RedRum]

2.5 million is what? 1 in 10 or 11 Canadians? You guys seriously believe that number? What the hell is a BBM? Is that like when the star tries to give you free delivery for a month so they can boost numbers to their advertisers and justify ad rates?

"TSN, along with RDS, are the official broadcasters of Major League Soccer (MLS) in Canada with a national broadcast package that includes 36 games featuring Montreal Impact, Toronto FC and Vancouver Whitecaps FC." ... hmmm

I am not saying the numbers weren't "good" but this just sounds inflated to me.

[NBS]

2.5 million is what? 1 in 10 or 11 Canadians? You guys seriously believe that number? What the hell is a BBM? Is that like when the star tries to give you free delivery for a month so they can boost numbers to their advertisers and justify ad rates?

"TSN, along with RDS, are the official broadcasters of Major League Soccer (MLS) in Canada with a national broadcast package that includes 36 games featuring Montreal Impact, Toronto FC and Vancouver Whitecaps FC." ... hmmm

I am not saying the numbers weren't "good" but this just sounds inflated to me.

BBM is the ratings provider in Canada. They calculate the numbers independently, TSN just takes it for what it is. TSN saw the ratings were solid and decided to run the story, if the ratings weren't favourable, they wouldn't have said anything about it. It's not shocking. Two of the three major markets were involved; it was the first MLS game in Montreal's history and the home opener for Vancouver. The key number here is the 541,000 average audience. The 2.5 million is just the people who 'had a look' at some point during the match. There isn't anything fishy about it.

[Oldtimer]

^BBM is the Canadian equivalent of the Neilsen ratings in the U.S. If anything, they are more accurate than their U.S. counterparts. Every advertiser looks at the BBM ratings to see what the audience is before placing their advertisements.


Have you ever wondered how radio and television stations find out who's listening to or watching their programs? In Canada, they rely on BBM to provide them with this information.

http://bbm.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=65

[Technorgasm]

Does anyone have any data how many TFC games will be on TSN?

Are we still mostly on GOLTV?

[__wowza]

wow, congrats to both teams from a rivalry stemming way back. hopefully when the plains of abraham II starts up we can dust those numbers.

[Fort York Redcoat]

What's interesting to me is that usually Vanny gets left out or third best when it comes to Canada rivalries but this time they get their day in the sun because of the re-ignition of the USL feud.

Long term I would have been fearful of Vanny getting left behind in the ratings (Canada rivalry-wise) but they'll have fuel from USL days v Montreal AND the Cascadia rivalries to fall back on.

[brad]

This is pretty amazing. Great for Canadian soccer to have that many people watching a domestic match.

[tfcleeds]

Does anyone have any data how many TFC games will be on TSN?

Are we still mostly on GOLTV?

No - as I recall only 11 matches are on GOLTV this year. TSN has the majority.

[Beach_Red]

After the three large metropolitan areas there is a step down in population size and the demographics are different in a way that favours the CFL rather than soccer. If there were three more cities like Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal we would probably be better off having our own league.

What do you mean, favours the CFL? Certainly the fact it's been around for a hundred years helps the CFL but in the regions that league has to work like any other to sell tickets and drive TV ratings.

Yes, if there were three more cities like Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal we would be better off with our own league.

[__wowza]

If there were three more cities like Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal we would probably be better off having our own league.


Yes, if there were three more cities like Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal we would be better off with our own league.


i tend to stay away from smoking crack so early in the morning, but to each their own ;)

[Detroit_TFC]

Stellar Canadian ratings even more impressive compared to the sad US ratings of 82K for Dallas v NYRB on NBC Sports Network (Sunday afternoon not the best time for anything on tv). Even that sad amount was better than the ratings previously on Fox Soccer, so I guess even that is a positive.

[TFC07]

That's awesome! Canada slowly turning into a soccer country.


Yeah, I know it's a pipe dream to think like that :o

[Waggy]

The 2.5 mil doesn't impress me. The 500k does. 2.5 mil... I mean how many guys turn on their tv on a saturday afternoon and cruise the sports stations to see whats on? Don't think that number reflects anything on soccer, it does however show the impact of being on a major network nationally. The 500k watching though is outstanding. I think the CFL comparison is valid, but I disagree that Americans are used to supporting only the worlds best at their sports. The NCAA is clearly 2nd best at football and down to 4th in basketball. Americans just aren't as big soccer fans as we are, yet. Soccer has always been popular in Canada, the trick was turning the interest from other countries national teams and leagues to our own. The US has always struggled to make soccer popular in the country outside of their national team.

[TFC Cityboy]

2.5m must be close to HNIC numbers eh?

[Whoop]

HNIC usually averages 1 million viewers if not more.

I don't know what the number is for those who tune into part or some of it during the course of a night. Maybe 4-5 million?

[Oldtimer]

Stellar Canadian ratings even more impressive compared to the sad US ratings of 82K for Dallas v NYRB on NBC Sports Network (Sunday afternoon not the best time for anything on tv). Even that sad amount was better than the ratings previously on Fox Soccer, so I guess even that is a positive.

With 10 times the population, the US equivalent would be 5 million viewers and 25 million watching a bit of it while channel surfing. That's for a specialty sports channel too!

[KRO]

Does anyone have any data how many TFC games will be on TSN?

Are we still mostly on GOLTV?
18 TFC games on TSN this season, 3 of which are on TSN2.
10 games are on GOL and 6 games on Sportsnet or Sportsnet1.
Not too much Gerry and his "endlines" and "centre stripes".

[Offside goal]

I think a regular HNIC game has an average audience in the 2 mil range. Playoff hockey is obviously a bit different, but Game 7 for Boston-Vancouver this past June had an average audience of 8.76 million, with a total reach of 18.45 million.

Overall, great numbers for MLS - 500k for a game is fantastic.

[Whoop]

My bad. I was really off. LOL

[Offside goal]

My bad. I was really off. LOL

Not too far off - 1.2 to 1.5mil was the average range reported before the old set top rating system was replaced with fancy new pager-like devices (a couple of years ago now).

What that means for live sports is that people watching at bars etc. were not properly accounted under the old measuring system. Now that they are better represented = higher numbers overall = happier networks because of more ad revenue.

[Detroit_TFC]

Oldtimer - WC games pull those kind of numbers in US, some Mexican Primera Liga and nat team games pull close to those numbers on the Spanish-language channels. MLS media bigwigs are vexed by knowing the potential audience is out there but just isn't biting.

[Whoop]

For what it's worth.



20,692 = median attendance in MLS stadiums over first 10 dates of 2012; 20,000 = median attendance in Serie A over last 10 dates

[Canary10]

Did anyone watch the game on NBC by any chance? I find the camera angles and the overall camera work really bad in North American tv productions. It's like they don't know where the ball is going, so they have much wider camera angles than an EPL broadcast. If NBC can fix that it would improve viewership I think.

A better quality would help too. MLS is still just too painful to watch most of the time. It's great being at games, buy why watch on TV when you have access to European leagues where the play is actually fluid.

[CSO_BBTB]

What do you mean, favours the CFL? Certainly the fact it's been around for a hundred years helps the CFL but in the regions that league has to work like any other to sell tickets and drive TV ratings.

Soccer is still most popular amongst recent immigrants. The proportion of the population that was born overseas or has at least one parent who was born overseas is significantly higher in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver than it is in cities like Winnipeg and Regina.

[TFC/Everton]

Stellar Canadian ratings even more impressive compared to the sad US ratings of 82K for Dallas v NYRB on NBC Sports Network (Sunday afternoon not the best time for anything on tv). Even that sad amount was better than the ratings previously on Fox Soccer, so I guess even that is a positive.

The NFL does ok on Sunday afternoon.

[Detroit_TFC]

^ except for that, of course.

[RC8]

For what it's worth.

Interesting. It's worth noting the MLS covers a range of 330 million people, whereas Italy only has 60 million.

Impressive nonetheless!

[Auzzy]

Interesting. It's worth noting the MLS covers a range of 330 million people, whereas Italy only has 60 million.

Impressive nonetheless!

Except for in-stadium attendance (different from TV viewership), it's more the local population that counts, rather than the national population -- also consider the massive importance of soccer to Italian society.

On the other hand, Serie A has other unique problems, especially with the type of in-stadium crowd they get at least for some teams.

[Oldtimer]

Soccer is still most popular amongst recent immigrants. The proportion of the population that was born overseas or has at least one parent who was born overseas is significantly higher in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver than it is in cities like Winnipeg and Regina.

... and that's a change from generations past. In the old days, immigrants felt that they had to adopt North American sports like hockey, baseball, and gridiron. Now (probably due to the availability of foreign leagues on Canadian TV), they feel that they can still watch the beautiful game and still be 100% Canadian.

[mr k]

What do you mean, favours the CFL? Certainly the fact it's been around for a hundred years helps the CFL but in the regions that league has to work like any other to sell tickets and drive TV ratings.

Yes, if there were three more cities like Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal we would be better off with our own league.

The most highly rated CFL games involve Saskatchewan 75% of the time. When they were on the roll 2 years ago, regular season matches hit 1 million consistently. There are only 1 million people in all of SK. That's the difference with the soccer demographics.


The headline on this thread is a bit misleading as 2.5 million tuned in at any given time to watch but they weren't there for the whole match - this number is known as the reach. The number that is usually cited is the average 500k+ number.

[greatwhitenorf]

Solid numbers, should only get better in future. Just imagine how well MLS would do if TSN created the same panel discussions about soccer as they do for the NHL or the CFL.

It's interesting to see the game has continued to grow and prosper given the lack of secondary media coverage. By that, I mean, other than game reports, you rarely see the mainstream media give MLS much coverage across Canada. If we had the kind of blough job coverage given to the Blue Jays by Rogers, or the NHL by TSN(who operate the NHL Network for the league), the numbers would soar.

TSN knows it would likely spell the demise of the CFL if it were to take that approach, given that Toronto and Vancouver's MLS clubs have quickly established economic superiority over their CFL counterparts in those cities. Montreal Impact will maybe have a bit more work to do to topple the Als, but since the Als are operating either at a loss or with a very thin profit margin, something that can only worsen as the Impact begin taking away sponsorship money, suite sales or media coverage.

A MLS team in Ottawa would absolutely kill any hope for the CFL. But seeing the Skydome full for last week's game is a big signal to the sports marketplace that the game's here to stay and this great audience for Vcr-Mtl only reinforces that.

[LittleOzzy]

How did TFC do ratings wise in the second leg game against L.A.?

[Beach_Red]

TSN knows it would likely spell the demise of the CFL if it were to take that approach, given that Toronto and Vancouver's MLS clubs have quickly established economic superiority over their CFL counterparts in those cities. Montreal Impact will maybe have a bit more work to do to topple the Als, but since the Als are operating either at a loss or with a very thin profit margin, something that can only worsen as the Impact begin taking away sponsorship money, suite sales or media coverage.



This is actually kind of funny given that there were no Als only a few years ago.

There's plenty of room in Canada for both MLS teams and the CFL.

[CSO_BBTB]

... and that's a change from generations past. In the old days, immigrants felt that they had to adopt North American sports like hockey, baseball, and gridiron. Now (probably due to the availability of foreign leagues on Canadian TV), they feel that they can still watch the beautiful game and still be 100% Canadian.

More pressure to rigidly assimilate was definitely there socially in earlier decades but whether people actually always complied is another story. One of my cousins often played in front of crowds of 5,000 to 10,000 in Toronto in the NSL in the 1970s. When there were less foreign games on TV people watched the local stuff (i.e. the forerunners of the present day CSL) more than they do now. Things are definitely very different now though with the way TFC and MLS are being treated as part of the mainstream.

[117]

HNIC usually averages 1 million viewers if not more.

I don't know what the number is for those who tune into part or some of it during the course of a night. Maybe 4-5 million?

March 3rd on HNIC, Leafs Habs was 2.5 million average. Peak at 3.3 million. 7.4 million "tuned in".

That's on 1 English channel. I'm sure RDS had a bunch of viewers as well.

[Flipityflu]

those are fantastic numbers. if those kind of numbers continue, it can only mean good things for the future of Canadian football. its my hope that this will start a positive enviroment for the national side to develop.

[greatwhitenorf]

This is actually kind of funny given that there were no Als only a few years ago.

There's plenty of room in Canada for both MLS teams and the CFL.

Absolutely. As long as CFL locations in your Canada include Moncton, Quebec City, London and Shreveport 2.0.

Otherwise, the David Braley life support system can only go on so long. If the CFL can't prosper in Canada's major markets - and it isn't - despite the level of media boosterism it's getting now, it's long-term future becomes questionable having to play out of secondary markets.

[shwade]

Does anyone have the numbers for the 2 Toronto games yet?

[mr k]

Absolutely. As long as CFL locations in your Canada include Moncton, Quebec City, London and Shreveport 2.0.

Otherwise, the David Braley life support system can only go on so long. If the CFL can't prosper in Canada's major markets - and it isn't - despite the level of media boosterism it's getting now, it's long-term future becomes questionable having to play out of secondary markets.

CFL and North American football's biggest enemy over the next decade is concussions as parents pull kids away from the sport and insurance firms say no to back stopping youth & school leagues due to higher lawsuits.

As long as North American football is one of the top 3 sports, CFL will easily have the edge over other sports like the MLS. As mentioned already, MLS coverage beyond televising the match is skimpy. But the broad interest isn't really there to justify it. If you look at the number of comments after footy articles on sites like the globe & the Star, the numbers are pretty light - and that includes about 25% of the comments dissing the sport for the usual boorish reasons. And the tv ratings aren't consistently good like it is for hockey, football, baseball & curling.

Plus, the strength of the CFL like curling is in Western Canada - the part of the country where the population base is increasing and the economy is growing faster than the rest of Canada. The MLS isn't at the stage yet where they can get 1.5m wo watched the Brier final or 4-5m watching the Grey Cup. Even the WC final is now just getting close to Brier rating levels.

[Beach_Red]

Absolutely. As long as CFL locations in your Canada include Moncton, Quebec City, London and Shreveport 2.0.

Otherwise, the David Braley life support system can only go on so long. If the CFL can't prosper in Canada's major markets - and it isn't - despite the level of media boosterism it's getting now, it's long-term future becomes questionable having to play out of secondary markets.

This does sound similar to MLS - one big investor life support system and a failure to break through in the big markets like NY and LA.

Maybe in a few years we will be talking about a Canadian soccer league that won't have to compete in every market with the NFL, NBA, MLB and NCAA.

[Macksam]

Plus, the strength of the CFL like curling is in Western Canada - the part of the country where the population base is increasing and the economy is growing faster than the rest of Canada. The MLS isn't at the stage yet where they can get 1.5m wo watched the Brier final or 4-5m watching the Grey Cup. Even the WC final is now just getting close to Brier rating levels.
The plus for MLS is the demographics for places like Calgary and Edmonton are changing to reflect the big three more with the bolded happening. However, for MLS to fully benefit from that, these cities would need franchises of their own in about 10 to 12 years time. Who knows what the future holds.

[greatwhitenorf]

The big difference in MLS' favour lies in the calibre of ownership and its depth of pockets. Among the ten richest owners of soccer teams on the planet, MLS have two in Paul Allen in Seattle and Philip Anschutz in LA. Mix their capabilities in with how MLS have sensibly managed costs and used marketing tools like Soccer United Marketing to broaden revenue and the league is being fairly well managed and continuing to grow and develop.

Here in Canada, all three MLS clubs feature very sound and prosperous owners with deep pockets if needed. Happily, they'll all make money. The CFL can't make the same claim.

The Argos face some serious challenges to stay viable. Lose Toronto and the whole league takes a huge hit in terms of TV marketability. They don't have the deep pockets to support years of losses. Pro soccer in North America has come and again repeatedly, returning stronger each time. This time, it's here to stay and challenge the established sports. There will be blood.

[Macksam]

The Argos face some serious challenges to stay viable. Lose Toronto and the whole league takes a huge hit in terms of TV marketability. They don't have the deep pockets to support years of losses. Pro soccer in North America has come and again repeatedly, returning stronger each time. This time, it's here to stay and challenge the established sports. There will be blood.
Not to point you out greatwhitenorf as you haven't said this, but whenever I hear someone say the CFL will fold if the league loses Toronto, I ask the question why? The vast majority of the league's ratings come from somewhere else. It would be misguided on the part of TSN and the companies that sponsor the league to pack up everything and leave if the Argos fold.

[greatwhitenorf]

Fair question, Macksam. It's all about advertising. TV coverage runs on dollars from sponsors who want their products shown to the largest audience possible. Take the Argos out of the CFL mix and the CFL is no longer in Canada's largest market, which undermines their appeal to advertisers. And it's not comparable to the NFL not being in LA. That league is far more wealthy and stable, plus LA is soon to return to the fold with a new stadium project soon to begin.

It's not like one event or circumstance is going to topple the CFL, but it's like it's being nibbled to death by ducks. There isn't a huge margin for error or the ability to withstand heavy debt. One man's benevolence is holding a quarter of the league in place. One network - TSN - is pouring enormous energy and effort to support the league, which has a spin-off benefit of encouraging other media to maintain coverage. Now TSN is beginning to acknowledge soccer's growing importance, a sport they have given begrudging, or even mocking, coverage to in past years. That's not something the CFL can be happy about.

Losing the Argos would confirm the signal that the CFL is losing relevancy in the bigger marketplaces. The fact that the Whitecaps, in year one of their MLS existence, formed a larger commercial operation than the long-lived BC Lions speaks volumes. Montreal looks great playing out of that cute Percy Molson stadium, but they still aren't profitable. Now they've got a rival playing in much of the same season who commenced their upgraded professional status by playing an attractive home opener in front of 50,000 enthusiastic fans. That won't make marketing any easier for the Als.

One sport has a great history. The other has a great future.

[Mulder]

Solid numbers, should only get better in future. Just imagine how well MLS would do if TSN created the same panel discussions about soccer as they do for the NHL or the CFL.

It's interesting to see the game has continued to grow and prosper given the lack of secondary media coverage. By that, I mean, other than game reports, you rarely see the mainstream media give MLS much coverage across Canada. If we had the kind of blough job coverage given to the Blue Jays by Rogers, or the NHL by TSN(who operate the NHL Network for the league), the numbers would soar.

TSN knows it would likely spell the demise of the CFL if it were to take that approach, given that Toronto and Vancouver's MLS clubs have quickly established economic superiority over their CFL counterparts in those cities. Montreal Impact will maybe have a bit more work to do to topple the Als, but since the Als are operating either at a loss or with a very thin profit margin, something that can only worsen as the Impact begin taking away sponsorship money, suite sales or media coverage.

A MLS team in Ottawa would absolutely kill any hope for the CFL. But seeing the Skydome full for last week's game is a big signal to the sports marketplace that the game's here to stay and this great audience for Vcr-Mtl only reinforces that.

I'm not convinced the White caps have overtaken the B.C. Lions after just one season. Considering the season the lions had last year. There is just no proof of that in Vancouver. Again, tons of room for both, infact in talking with people I know from Vancouver there is hardly any CFL vs MLS talk, and lots of cross-over fans. The same can't be completely said for Toronto for reasons unknown.
The Lions were also in a familiar place where the Argos are now about 8-10 years ago, and now draw over 30,000+ for most games. We will wait to see what next season brings for the Lions attendance.

As for Montreal, they are making a decent profit since their stadium expansion from what I heard. Ottawa has already been awarded a NASL Franchise set to take the field the same year as the CFL team. There's no proof it would 'kill' the CFL in Ottawa. There is room for both in a city with a metro population of 1.2 million.


This is actually kind of funny given that there were no Als only a few years ago.

There's plenty of room in Canada for both MLS teams and the CFL.

Als moved to Montreal is 1996. Not really a few years ago any more, but have enjoyed success since. And I totally agree, there is lots of room in the Canada sports market for both leagues.


Absolutely. As long as CFL locations in your Canada include Moncton, Quebec City, London and Shreveport 2.0.

Otherwise, the David Braley life support system can only go on so long. If the CFL can't prosper in Canada's major markets - and it isn't - despite the level of media boosterism it's getting now, it's long-term future becomes questionable having to play out of secondary markets.

This is a common criticism of the CFL, 'only' 8 teams, Yet, Canada has a population of 33 million. I commonly ask this question to people who make that criticism. USA population is 10 times higher, so why doesn't the NFL have 80 teams?

The CFL is prospering in some major Canadian markets, Montreal and Vancouver. Toronto and Hamilton have not played exciting football with you hands in quite a while, and I think that is the major issue. Start playing exciting football and there will be an attendance and interest boost.



The big difference in MLS' favour lies in the calibre of ownership and its depth of pockets. Among the ten richest owners of soccer teams on the planet, MLS have two in Paul Allen in Seattle and Philip Anschutz in LA. Mix their capabilities in with how MLS have sensibly managed costs and used marketing tools like Soccer United Marketing to broaden revenue and the league is being fairly well managed and continuing to grow and develop.

Here in Canada, all three MLS clubs feature very sound and prosperous owners with deep pockets if needed. Happily, they'll all make money. The CFL can't make the same claim.

The Argos face some serious challenges to stay viable. Lose Toronto and the whole league takes a huge hit in terms of TV marketability. They don't have the deep pockets to support years of losses. Pro soccer in North America has come and again repeatedly, returning stronger each time. This time, it's here to stay and challenge the established sports. There will be blood.

There is a huge different in having owners of a team that plays in a sport that is played globally, then owning a team of a sport that is played in 2 counties. (arguable 3). The CFL has never been this stable ownership wise in it's history, with the exception of Toronto right now. As I mentioned in an earlier post there is plenty of room for both sports in the market. And I don't understand the one league vs the other thought process.


Fair question, Macksam. It's all about advertising. TV coverage runs on dollars from sponsors who want their products shown to the largest audience possible. Take the Argos out of the CFL mix and the CFL is no longer in Canada's largest market, which undermines their appeal to advertisers. And it's not comparable to the NFL not being in LA. That league is far more wealthy and stable, plus LA is soon to return to the fold with a new stadium project soon to begin.

It's not like one event or circumstance is going to topple the CFL, but it's like it's being nibbled to death by ducks. There isn't a huge margin for error or the ability to withstand heavy debt. One man's benevolence is holding a quarter of the league in place. One network - TSN - is pouring enormous energy and effort to support the league, which has a spin-off benefit of encouraging other media to maintain coverage. Now TSN is beginning to acknowledge soccer's growing importance, a sport they have given begrudging, or even mocking, coverage to in past years. That's not something the CFL can be happy about.

Losing the Argos would confirm the signal that the CFL is losing relevancy in the bigger marketplaces. The fact that the Whitecaps, in year one of their MLS existence, formed a larger commercial operation than the long-lived BC Lions speaks volumes. Montreal looks great playing out of that cute Percy Molson stadium, but they still aren't profitable. Now they've got a rival playing in much of the same season who commenced their upgraded professional status by playing an attractive home opener in front of 50,000 enthusiastic fans. That won't make marketing any easier for the Als.

One sport has a great history. The other has a great future.

There is no even hint that the Argo are going anywhere. Or the CFL. The CFL has never been stronger than it is now, but you are making it seem it's being "nibbled" to death. CFL has withstood much tougher times than what's ahead, the 2010 season 6 of the 8 teams made money, but your talking about withstanding heavy debt. There is also signs for a huge bidding war for the TV rights come next season. I honestly don't think there is serious 'fear' or "unhappiness" about the MLS in the CFL board rooms. Business can't operate on fear.

As posted above as well, There was no real evidence the Whitecaps overtook the lions in one season, you also can't compare a team that has been around for 50 years compared to a team that has been around for 1. It's not a fair comparison, you have to wait 5-8 years before you can properly see the marketplace response. One game or one season doesn't mean the team is looking at great success in the future.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Again, tons of room for both, in fact in talking with people I know from Vancouver there is hardly any CFL vs MLS talk, and lots of cross-over fans. The same can't be completely said for Toronto for reasons unknown.


Really, Mulder? You've been participating in these CFL comparison discussions for YEARS now.


This is a common criticism of the CFL, 'only' 8 teams, Yet, Canada has a population of 33 million. I commonly ask this question to people who make that criticism. USA population is 10 times higher, so why doesn't the NFL have 80 teams?

Inferiority complex. We need to watch Gridiron bigger and better than the States version before it is accepted here. I don't agree and it made me fall out with the game. I would rather see a 20-40 team league of the CFL with Naturalized Canadians only. That will take us away from the ridiculous comparisons of the 60's and 70's when we could compete for American talent and put us back to a place where we follow the local team and the league would feel bigger, like our country, and I think we could market the diversity in skill level we would obviously have with so many teams.


And I don't understand the one league vs the other thought process.


North America = Choice in Sport like no other place on Earth. Comparisons will always happen. The bigger the place, the more options, the more comparisons.


As posted above as well, There was no real evidence the Whitecaps overtook the lions in one season, you also can't compare a team that has been around for 50 years compared to a team that has been around for 1. It's not a fair comparison, you have to wait 5-8 years before you can properly see the marketplace response. One game or one season doesn't mean the team is looking at great success in the future.

We can compare and we will. I don't know if Vancouver overtook BC or not but if it did I agree that it has to be regarded as one annual result. Inaugural, at that.

[Hitcho]

:eek: WOAH!

Wonder what the numbers will be like next month when TFC plays in Montreal?

Yeah - that's the big one, Toronto vs. Montreal. Biggest population counts (I think) in terms of cities and provinces, closer geographic rivals...

Always makes me sit up and take notice even in sports I don't really follow.

Oh wait, the Trillium Cup means Clown Bust are our biggest rivals... :D

[greatwhitenorf]

Mulder, the Whitcaps exceeded the Lions commercially BEFORE their first season began. Not after one year, before.

The CFL is toast because it has absolutely no impact on those who will form tomorrow's audiences in Canada's biggest markets. But soccer does and it commands an ever-growing audience. I've lived in Toronto all my life. I enjoyed the Argos when I was young, went to games, listened to radio broadcasts doing my homework. Hated Russ Jackson.

Me and my neighbours have teenage kids who put me in conversational contact with a fair few high school students every week as they pass in and out of our houses and yards. Over the years, I have never once heard any of them mention the CFL.

My sons and their pals couldn't name a single CFL player if the prize was free beer for a year, served by naked cheerleaders.

Same goes for the Raptors, but not necessarily the NBA. They frequently talk NHL and NFL and European soccer is on the front burner all the time. We see them wearing souvenir soccer shirts regularly.

And TFC? It's no shock to see some clad in merchandise and hear them debate about players, formations and tactics as ardently as they debate the game abroad. The girls are into it almost as much as the guys.

If we're watching a soccer game on TV - any game - and they happen to come in the door, it prompts them to gather 'round, watch and chat about the game. Maybe not for long, but they chip in their two cents worth. They wouldn't do it if they weren't interested, if soccer wasn't relevant. They tell me what their dads are watching or who they support.

Over 20 years on this inner-city street and not once has a neighbour ever asked me what I think of the Argos QB situation. Don't think one ever will, either.

I can see the CFL becoming a western-based, three-down league with franchises in Des Moines, Fargo, Boise and Coeur D'Alene. Innovatively cross-marketing itself with discount tickets for regional, tobacco-sponsored, tier-two rodeo circuits. You just know the commissioner someday will be Darren Dutchyshyn.

[Mulder]

Mulder, the Whitcaps exceeded the Lions commercially BEFORE their first season began. Not after one year, before.

Do you have proof of this? I have tons of friends in Vancouver who are fans leagues of both and say the Lions are more talked about than the Whitecaps. By what do you mean Commercially success before? prior to the announcement of joining the MLS? Or After? That Sir, is called 'hype'. I've seen complaints here of people 'upset' about the hype the CFL gets, yet there is a double standard when it happens towards MLS and it's ok?



The CFL is toast because it has absolutely no impact on those who will form tomorrow's audiences in Canada's biggest markets. But soccer does and it commands an ever-growing audience. I've lived in Toronto all my life. I enjoyed the Argos when I was young, went to games, listened to radio broadcasts doing my homework. Hated Russ Jackson.

Obviously you've never of how much CFL teams do for their communities, But when the leafs do their annually visit to sick kids, It's plastered all over the media. The CFL has shown no signs of being 'toast' in recent years with the exception of Toronto, but I suspect many season of boring defensive football may be the cause here.


Me and my neighbours have teenage kids who put me in conversational contact with a fair few high school students every week as they pass in and out of our houses and yards. Over the years, I have never once heard any of them mention the CFL.

This doesn't mean anything.


My sons and their pals couldn't name a single CFL player if the prize was free beer for a year, served by naked cheerleaders.

Name 3 players on Real Salt Lake, or Portland Timbers in 5 seconds, Go.
Even better, Try it with NFL teams. Any non-qb or running back. Most who are even hardcore fans can't do it.

Infact, I asked this question about the St Louis Blues to a co-worker, and there only able to name one of the goalies. Yet, they are first in the NHL. And he watches 5-6 NHL games a week, compared to me, I would be lucky to have watched that many this season. This issue is not unique to the CFL.


Same goes for the Raptors, but not necessarily the NBA. They frequently talk NHL and NFL and European soccer is on the front burner all the time. We see them wearing souvenir soccer shirts regularly.

Teenage Neighbours is not a very big demographic, infact I don't have any teenage neighbours.


And TFC? It's no shock to see some clad in merchandise and hear them debate about players, formations and tactics as ardently as they debate the game abroad. The girls are into it almost as much as the guys.

Your right, From my time living in Toronto I've found the city itself really doesn't have an identity of it's own, and is an extremely trendy city. When something else comes along the masses follow, I hope this doesn't happen to TFC.



If we're watching a soccer game on TV - any game - and they happen to come in the door, it prompts them to gather 'round, watch and chat about the game. Maybe not for long, but they chip in their two cents worth. They wouldn't do it if they weren't interested, if soccer wasn't relevant. They tell me what their dads are watching or who they support.

Small demographic.


Over 20 years on this inner-city street and not once has a neighbour ever asked me what I think of the Argos QB situation. Don't think one ever will, either.

Same as above, however how many people nowadays in the 'inner-city' were born in the city? Or even country? This goes back to what I said about Toronto or GTA lacking identity. While in Vancouver I was very interested to see how many different cultures came together to watch the lions, wearing the Orange jerseys, Asians, Indians, Pakistani, Australians, etc. Maybe the Argo's missed something on marketing? Blackouts of the 80's and early 90's? Lost Generation?
My wife put it like this "Im not sure what it is but, Vancouver has a way of turning immigrants into Vancouverites, and they integrate into the community and culture, while in Toronto they stay near their own culture. "


I can see the CFL becoming a western-based

Ontario Government certainly doesn't see it this way, why would they be investing in a CFL stadium in Hamilton? And other investors for Montreal and Ottawa? I've heard rumours of one behind the potential stadium in Halifax.


three-down league with franchises in Des Moines, Fargo, Boise and Coeur D'Alene. Innovatively cross-marketing itself with discount tickets for regional, tobacco-sponsored, tier-two rodeo circuits. You just know the commissioner someday will be Darren Dutchyshyn.

I'm not sure what your getting at with this comment, it's this type of anti-western non-sense quote the reason why the rest of the country hates Toronto.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Mulder, your scraping for attention for the CFL is painfully obvious and I don't care if it's on topic but I'm going to remind you you're on a footy site. Expect footy bias.

I too am somewhat curious as to the stats on MLS vs CFL when it comes to commercial viability. It's fast approaching that city by city, these initial pushes into Canadian sports markets can only take away from other areas. There's only so much sports dollar. What will be of more interest to you and your fellow fans, Mulder, is the long term that those of us go on about here. For years the CFL has survived in some areas while thrived in other markets. I think once things settle in for MLS in Canada the CFL's problem will turn into more people playing footy and more importantly the elusive couch potatoes that keep the CFL tv numbers dwarfing ours.

And if you take offense to the suggestion that MLS fans do while CFL fans watch please refer to the Canadian Golf and Curling TV numbers that dwarf both our audiences combined.g:Dg:Dg:D

[Mulder]

Mulder, your scraping for attention for the CFL is painfully obvious and I don't care if it's on topic but I'm going to remind you you're on a footy site. Expect footy bias.

I fully expect a bias here, but I'm here to post somewhat of an outside perspective to the debate. Biased debates are no fun, they usually end up turning into a bash fest. I'm hoping opinions have the right to be questioned here. I'm by no means Anti-MLS or Anti-TFC. Infact, coming here and meeting lots of people from another supporters group has made me more of a fan. I read almost every thread. And I would probably get season tickets if driving 200km one way to Toronto 20+ times a year was feasible.


I too am somewhat curious as to the stats on MLS vs CFL when it comes to commercial viability. It's fast approaching that city by city, these initial pushes into Canadian sports markets can only take away from other areas. There's only so much sports dollar. What will be of more interest to you and your fellow fans, Mulder, is the long term that those of us go on about here. For years the CFL has survived in some areas while thrived in other markets. I think once things settle in for MLS in Canada the CFL's problem will turn into more people playing footy and more importantly the elusive couch potatoes that keep the CFL tv numbers dwarfing ours.

With the exception of Canada's NHL teams, Winning and entertaining product would have a huge affect on where the rest of the sports dollars go. Something I know for sure the Argo's have been lacking. :P


And if you take offense to the suggestion that MLS fans do while CFL fans watch please refer to the Canadian Golf and Curling TV numbers that dwarf both our audiences combined.g:Dg:Dg:D

Yeah man! You know what gets me is Blue Jays ratings, over the past 4-5 years they've jumped 200+%. Now have better weekly numbers than the Red Sox and sometimes Yankee's. But I don't hear as much 'I watched the Jays game the other day' than I do other sports.

[dupont]

Your right, From my time living in Toronto I've found the city itself really doesn't have an identity of it's own, and is an extremely trendy city. When something else comes along the masses follow, I hope this doesn't happen to TFC.

So we have to listen to you talk trash about the city that I love and have lived in my entire life as having no culture or identity but you take offence to someone badmouthing the west? I don't think his anti-west stuff was good but to have you calling him out after trashing where we live seems off to me.

[Mulder]

So we have to listen to you talk trash about the city that I love and have lived in my entire life as having no culture or identity but you take offence to someone badmouthing the west? I don't think his anti-west stuff was good but to have you calling him out after trashing where we live seems off to me.


I wouldn't call it 'trashing' so much as an observation. I never said Toronto doesn't have 'culture' either, So I would respect that you don't put words in my mouth.

I am just speaking as to what some people have told me with regards to the 'trendy' comment, and my 'identity' comment was in reference as to how either immigrants or new Torontonians adapt to Toronto's Culture, and the fact that the City of Toronto and developers have recently and consistently destroyed Toronto's heritage buildings. I'm a Infrastructure and building nut, and the pathetic lack of respect for those buildings and how quick some come down or ignored is downright criminal. We only complain once their gone. Maybe that is Toronto's identity? Consisting removing/ignoring the old and replacing with new. But if a person did that we'd say he/she's having an identity crisis :P

[Carts]

Toronto has trends that people follow & stop following when not trendy... (Occupy movement)
Toronto also has deep rooted institutions that people will always follow... (there's a bunch)
Toronto loves a winner - Toronto rarely has a winner - therefor people jump all over a winner... (in sports)

Trends come and go... Winners come and go... Institutions last forever...

In sports, the only true, proven sports institution in Toronto is the Maple Leafs...
30-years of losing, extremely high ticket prices and merch, Leaf Nation is strong - sure there are cracks, but it is still massive and strong...

Jays are the best team in baseball = this is a baseball town during that time...
They stink - and attendance drops DRAMATICALLY and so does the trend factor...

Argos become a contender and champion - attendance rises - people get on the bandwagon...
Suddenly wearing an Argo item is a little trendy...
They suck - people stay away in droves...

Toronto - like anywhere - LOVES A WINNER, and to quote Jerry Seinfeld; "not that there's anything wrong with that"...

Other than the Maple Leafs, all of the sports teams will have their core (some large, some small), and when they're winners, a whole bunch will jump on the bandwagon and trendy thing to do by saying "...I always liked the 'insert team here' ya know..."

[dupont]

I wouldn't call it 'trashing' so much as an observation. I never said Toronto doesn't have 'culture' either, So I would respect that you don't put words in my mouth.


Fine, you can remove that one word from my post and my point was still the same. I only used it because I thought of the two things as being complimentary.



and the fact that the City of Toronto and developers have recently and consistently destroyed Toronto's heritage buildings. I'm a Infrastructure and building nut, and the pathetic lack of respect for those buildings and how quick some come down or ignored is downright criminal.

I'm also a building and infrastructure obsessed nut. Toronto has a huge problem with maintaining heritage structures but way more damage was done in the 60s than is happening today. However, there is still MUCH more work to be done improving this.
Toronto is far from the only city with this problem though. Did you ever see the building that was destroyed (http://www.nyc-architecture.com/GON/gon-penn6.jpg) to build Madison Square Garden in New York? I don't think anything that has happened in Toronto can touch that total lack of respect for architecture or history.

Anyways, I don't really want to argue with you because you seem like a very intelligent guy. I'm just super passionate about my city.

[Blizzard]

Fine, you can remove that one word from my post and my point was still the same. I only used it because I thought of the two things as being complimentary.




I'm also a building and infrastructure obsessed nut. Toronto has a huge problem with maintaining heritage structures but way more damage was done in the 60s than is happening today. However, there is still MUCH more work to be done improving this.
Toronto is far from the only city with this problem though. Did you ever see the building that was destroyed (http://www.nyc-architecture.com/GON/gon-penn6.jpg) to build Madison Square Garden in New York? I don't think anything that has happened in Toronto can touch that total lack of respect for architecture or history.


It went from this:
http://www.nyc-architecture.com/GON/gon-penn1.jpg


To this:
http://www.visitingdc.com/images/new-york-penn-station-address.jpg