Peter Schaad Critical of TFC Management.

[Dub Narcotic]

Schaad was very critical today of Toronto (and Montreal) management on VWFC Daily Podcast today, mentioning that he overheard high level executives from each team displaying ignorance as to who Bryce Alderson and Mac Kandji were during the Orlando tournament. He also said the rumour going around Orlando is that the TFC front office is highly dysfunctional with de Klerk, Winter and Mariner all clashing.

[MartinUtd]

Who is Peter Schaad?

[Shakes McQueen]

Who is Peter Schaad?

Wondering the same thing, LOL. And what is the VWFC Podcast?

EDIT: It looks like he's the voice of the Whitecaps? I haven't heard anything like this from reporters based in Toronto, so yeah - consider me skeptical. Wouldn't shock me if Winter displayed some ignorance about a kid who has played all of like, one preseason game with Vancouver, though.

- Scott

[Dub Narcotic]

Peter Schaad is the Fan radio host in Vancouver who does a daily Whitecaps show and also calls their games on the radio. The daily radio show is hosted as a podcast as well. He is, in my opinion, the best MLS journalist in Canada, and it's not close.

http://feeds.feedburner.com/TEAMRadio-WhitecapsFCDaily

His comments are early on in the Feb. 27th edition.

[mowe]

I could see that happening. Winter and Mariner being forced to work together can obviously cause problems with each having their own opinions. De Klerk is a strong personality and could potentially clash with those two as well.

Hope it doesn't get too bad, Mariner is key to this front office setup. I really wish we had local reporters who would get to the bottom of this.

[Dub Narcotic]

There's always been some weirdness about the setup. We'll see how it plays out this year.

[Shakes McQueen]

Some difference of opionion (even heated) can be fine and normal - I'm just shocked to hear an allegation that it's more contentious than that, because from what I've been seeing and reading, everything looks harmonious enough to me.

Things are even uncustomarily quiet on the players' front, for once.

I could maybe see some clashing between Winter and Mariner, but Winter and de klerk seems less likely to me.

- Scott

[mowe]

By the way I just listened to the podcast and the exact words used by Schaad were that he was hearing Winter/Mariner/De Klerk weren't on the same page. Not as damning as the OP, but still a cause for concern.

It would fit in with what Ives said after the SuperDraft, too, that it seemed to him that Winter and Mariner didn't have a good relationship.

[Roogsy]

Schaad was very critical today of Toronto (and Montreal) management on VWFC Daily Podcast today, mentioning that he overheard high level executives from each team displaying ignorance as to who Bryce Alderson and Mac Kandji were during the Orlando tournament. He also said the rumour going around Orlando is that the TFC front office is highly dysfunctional with de Klerk, Winter and Mariner all clashing.

I mentioned this early last year. Winter and Mariner have not gotten along well from the start. Given the off-season moves I thought things had improved. I fully expect some bloodletting at some point. If TFC don't have a good first half of the season I would not be surprised if Winter goes and Mariner remains given who his agent is.

[Roogsy]

Some difference of opionion (even heated) can be fine and normal - I'm just shocked to hear an allegation that it's more contentious than that, because from what I've been seeing and reading, everything looks harmonious enough to me.

Things are even uncustomarily quiet on the players' front, for once.

I could maybe see some clashing between Winter and Mariner, but Winter and de klerk seems less likely to me.

- Scott

I know fans are "happier" not knowing the goings on in the offices but your post reveals the other side of the equation which is fans are then surprised when they hear things or if "surprises" appear like sudden departures, odd personnel moves or outright public spats.

[Red CB Toronto]

Well if this situation were to come to head and Winter were to depart, you would have to be stupid not to realize you is waiting in the wings, Mariners partner in crime, Mr. Nicol.

[Shakes McQueen]

I know fans are "happier" not knowing the goings on in the offices but your post reveals the other side of the equation which is fans are then surprised when they hear things or if "surprises" appear like sudden departures, odd personnel moves or outright public spats.

Thinly-veiled contempt, thou art a harsh mistress!

I'm not happy not knowing what is going on - assuming this is going on - I said that I hadn't heard about any acrimony between the three of them from any Toronto-based reporters. I can't imagine anyone else here saying they are "happier" not knowing what is going on either - so I don't know if that is you projecting about some perceived past persecution you received here when trying to enlighten the unwashed masses, or what.

I hope Toronto's soccer reporters look into this, and give us a fuller picture of the situation in management, assuming there is one. Things seem perfectly fine from the outside, which has been rare for this club - we were always hearing rumblings from players when things were wrong.

Mariner and Winter also haven't made the faintest allusions to any sort of rift between them in any interviews I have read/seen.

But whatever. If there's a truth to be found, I hope it comes out. Sunlight being the best disinfectant, and all that jazz.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

But think about it Scott, when there have been problems in the past, where has it been revealed? The media in Toronto have not had a clue at any point about the inner workings at TFC. It has been bloggers and inside sources revealing them on the various forums that have shown to be more in tune and informed of lockerroom issues. From Mo to Preki to player issues, the media have always been a step behind so why think they'd be better informed now or in the future, especially with an administration that is far more controlling about internal information than previous ones?

It's not far from the truth when people joke that some media get their stories from this and other forums.

[kodiakTFC]

This team is destined to have drama so I assume its true.

[CSO_BBTB]

The people with inside info are getting the spin that their source wants spread online. Caveat emptor basically. Beyond that I would have thought that Thomas Rongen can't be ignored as a potential successor if things don't work out for Winter this season. His arrival strengthened the Dutch influence still further and his role in finding Huezo and Orozco seemed to encroach heavily on Paul Mariner's turf and was not something that an academy director would normally be expected to do.

[Cashcleaner]

Personally, I don't see a good enough reason to put much stock in this claim by Schaad. How would the Whitecap's media guy be privy to such information that no other local journalist covering TFC does? Doesn't really add up to me.

I would concede that there very well could be some friction going on between coaches - simply because we've never actually had a season free of drama like this, but I don't see Peter Schaad as a particularly reliable source on this matter.

[Derko]

Oh the Drama, well it was Oscar time wasn't it. lol

[Shakes McQueen]

Personally, I don't see a good enough reason to put much stock in this claim by Schaad. How would the Whitecap's media guy be privy to such information that no other local journalist covering TFC does? Doesn't really add up to me.

I would concede that there very well could be some friction going on between coaches - simply because we've never actually had a season free of drama like this, but I don't see Peter Schaad as a particularly reliable source on this matter.

This is kind of where I'm at too. I'm certainly open to it being true, but I find it odd that the Whitecaps radio guy is telling us this, when no MLS journalist in Toronto is reporting any such thing - including good reporters like JoMo, and some of the crappy rumourmongers most of us can't stand, who would relish reporting on some good ol' internal TFC strife.

I definitely don't discount the possibility of a guy who works in the MLS world cultivating inside sources for teams other than their own. A little funny to be hearing this from a Vancouver guy though, in light of what an open wound their management issues in the latter half of last season were. :D

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Not sure what his being a Vancouver guy has anything to do with it. If it was Goff or Galarcep would it be any different?

[Shakes McQueen]

Not sure what his being a Vancouver guy has anything to do with it. If it was Goff or Galarcep would it be any different?

Well, one difference I can see is that a guy like Galarcep is just an observer and journalist, whereas Schaad actually works, indirectly (as I'm assuming he's not on Vancouver's payroll?), for another team.

But even in that case, I tend to trust the veracity of Ives' reporting more when it comes to matters about the New Jersey Energy Drinks, than any other team, since he's closest to them.

And he doesn't do a lot of reporting on insider-y internal struggles outside the Red Bulls anyway.

Goff I don't read enough of to really comment.

- Scott

[twistedchinaman]

I definitely don't discount the possibility of a guy who works in the MLS world cultivating inside sources for teams other than their own. A little funny to be hearing this from a Vancouver guy though, in light of what an open wound their management issues in the latter half of last season were. :D

- Scott

Something about pots calling kettles black, and people living in glass houses not throwing stones?

[Shakes McQueen]

Something about pots calling kettles black, and people living in glass houses not throwing stones?

Yep, but we aren't the ones throwing stones this time!

- Scott

[Ageroo]

Let me and some spin to this.......he may be getting his info from Stuart Neely? Let's not forget he is now over with the Caps. Could he be the source of the info? I think that this may be where the info could have possibly gotten out....but that being said it could be a disgruntled employee as well.

[Roogsy]

I am not sure why you say Peter Schaad works for the team, he seems to be employed by the Fan Vancouver, owned by Bell Media.

As for Galarcep (and Goff although you are not familiar with them) they are two of the most widely renowned MLS journalists in the league published in Sports Illustrated as well as their local media and their own blogs. These two break more stories on a league-wide basis than any journalists. I think it's a mistake to simply view them as "local" guys.

In my opinion, if we were to count on the local Toronto guys to bring us scoop, we wouldn't be half as informed as we are about the operations of TFC. To assign them more credibility is to ignore the track record of who has significantly broken TFC news in the past.

[Ageroo]

I am in agreement with Roogs here.....Goff and Galarcep are pretty much the foremost authorities on all things MLS related. I have seen them break many a story...and not limited to "their teams". They usually get scoop on things before most other sources do.

[Shakes McQueen]

I am not sure why you say Peter Schaad works for the team, he seems to be employed by the Fan Vancouver, owned by Bell Media.

He's employed by the FAN, but does Vancouver's play by play. Hence my use of the word "indirect".


As for Galarcep (and Goff although you are not familiar with them) they are two of the most widely renowned MLS journalists in the league published in Sports Illustrated as well as their local media and their own blogs. These two break more stories on a league-wide basis than any journalists. I think it's a mistake to simply view them as "local" guys.

I never challenged their status as renowned MLS writers, but that has nothing to do with how wide their inside sources reach, where they are concentrated, or even how many they have.

Stephen Brunt is probably the best sports writer in Canada, and he pretty much never writes rumour columns about internal team strife, and subjects of that nature. Ives is largely the same way.

- Scott

[Oldtimer]

Vancouver guy, not particularly connected. It's all in the interpretation. Someone sees Winter and Mariner arguing about something. You could either (a) conclude they don't get along or (b) recognize that two strong personalities disagree but aren't at all threatened by each other. It's all in the interpretation.

[Shakes McQueen]

Vancouver guy, not particularly connected. It's all in the interpretation. Someone sees Winter and Mariner arguing about something. You could either (a) conclude they don't get along or (b) recognize that two strong personalities disagree but aren't at all threatened by each other. It's all in the interpretation.

Exactly. Maybe it's something, or maybe it's just a guy who happened to see them arguing about something, and assumed the worst. Who knows?

- Scott

[ensco]

Did Winter hire Mariner? Did Mariner hire Winter? Is there another team in MLS that has two top guys, that didn't select each other, and without a clear chain of command?

I got ripped when I tried to focus on this last year (it's a supporters's site!) but since it's true we don't know how good Schaad's info is, I'll just say this ....

The FO set up here is an MLSE special. If things don't go well (and let's face it, it's sports, there's a real chance of that)....everyone involved will get to argue about which of Winter or Mariner have to go, ignoring once again the actual architects of the problem. At least that's the idea, in my eyes. Hopefully the new overlords are smarter, and more engaged, than the current/former ones are.

[GTA_WOLF]

Let me and some spin to this.......he may be getting his info from Stuart Neely? Let's not forget he is now over with the Caps. Could he be the source of the info? I think that this may be where the info could have possibly gotten out....but that being said it could be a disgruntled employee as well.
Neely would definitely be one source. Had heard earlier last year that there was friction within the FO and that DeKlerk was one of the more outspoken individuals in the group.

[maninb]

Who gives a shyt what a Vancouver Shytcap journalist has to say about out team...

[Oldtimer]

Exactly. Maybe it's something, or maybe it's just a guy who happened to see them arguing about something, and assumed the worst. Who knows?

- Scott

I understand this instinctively, because my ethnic background is Hungarian, which is very similar to Dutch culture in this one respect. If you're inside a Hungarian home, people yell at each other all of the time, argue like crazy, use inflamatory language, etc. Someone from another culture might think we're about to kill one another, but actually it's nothing serious at all... in fact a perfectly normal Hungarian home can sound like a war zone while all of the time having very deep, loving relationships. When I married a woman from another culture, I had to totally re-learn how to communicate. :)

The tip-off that this is a cultural issue is that he mentions Winter and De Klerk "disliking" each other. Winter chose De Klerk, and he especially brought him in. It's unlikely they hate each other! Just ask any Dutchman, it's normal in their culture to argue vociferously. Now Mariner is from the much more polite English culture, but he's been around the international world of football long enough to understand that that's how the Dutch are. I'm sure he's not worried.

For those who are still worried, remember that Mariner was offered the chance to run everything in New England in this off-season and turned them down. It seems like he's happy. And Winter recently said that he would like to remain beyond the three years of his contract, so he's happy too (he could have easily just seen things out and then just leave with some experience under his belt).

If things really go south, I'm sure we'll have the Toronto media pick up on it.

A thread like this more reflects on the Toronto fan of any sport, who, even while things seem to be going well, is secretly worried that the wheels are going to fall off and it go horribly wrong. It comes IMO from watching the Leafs every year start off well, look like they are playoff-bound, and then tank later in the year. Every year!

[CSO_BBTB]

Did Winter hire Mariner? Did Mariner hire Winter? Is there another team in MLS that has two top guys, that didn't select each other, and without a clear chain of command?

Don't think the dynamic would have worked if Earl Cochrane had been kept in the GM role given the first thing Winter did was to tell some of Cochrane's discovery claims that they were not going to be signed despite what they had been told previously so they were in a difficult situation. They needed somebody with MLS experience to help guide Winter until he became familiar with the league's eccentricities and as a plan B if Winter did a Gullit mid-way through his first season.

If Winter gets the job done this season it will probably be time for Mariner to move on if his relationship with Winter is in any way strained because after two seasons Winter will know the league inside out and the Ajax thing will be firmly established as the way ahead, which he may not be fully on board with. If not, it probably all revolves around whether the Dutch approach is still seen as the way to go that will work under somebody else or is seen as an outright failure. Nothing unusual about any of that. "It's a results driven business" is a cliche that sums up how things work in that regard very well.

[ensco]

^Definitely agree about Hungarians. This is absolutely true of them. Not sure it's so true of the Dutch though!

It's not some psychological problem to wonder if you should take this report seriously. There's pretty good evidence that the MLSE "management style" of setting things up with multiple power structures is a problem. Remember the confusion about the roles of Mo and Gansler, that caused Gansler to leave? What about Carver's appointment, when it wasn't at all clear just what the hell he was going to do at the team (the announcement was buried in a PR about DVP closings etc). Of course the Leafs are part of the evidence of this too...the hiring of JFJ over Quinn, but keeping Quinn...when Burke demanded that he be President and report to the Board, it was all the evidence anyone could ever need that any other setup with these people comes with a huge set of problems.

Sigh.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Schaad was very critical today of Toronto (and Montreal) management on VWFC Daily Podcast today, mentioning that he overheard high level executives from each team displaying ignorance as to who Bryce Alderson and Mac Kandji were during the Orlando tournament. He also said the rumour going around Orlando is that the TFC front office is highly dysfunctional with de Klerk, Winter and Mariner all clashing.

Wow. Rumour reports on 3 alpha male personalities clashing.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/210/119/+_2acc5a8841f8752904d37f90a8014829.png

Thanks Vancouver.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a5/Chickenlittlemcgiposter.jpg

[brad]

I'm not concerned if high level execs aren't overly familiar with players in the MLS, that's not really their job.

Friction between Winter and Mariner wouldn't surprise me one bit with Mariner being the MLS guy and Winter being the guy from outside.

The thought of Mariner turning down NE to stay with us is nice, but it may not be as cut and dry. I don't see NE as being an appealing team to manage due to the owners being so cheap. It could also be a simple as a matter of salary - I suspect MLSE pay him a decent chunk more than Kraft would.

[mastermixer]

Seriously?? I just listened and this Schaad guy sounds like a Vancouver fan boy. I think he's just looking to put Vancouver up a notch and belittle the Canadian competition.

[TFC/Everton]

Neely would definitely be one source. Had heard earlier last year that there was friction within the FO and that DeKlerk was one of the more outspoken individuals in the group.

Discourse can be a positive if it leads to debate where all points of view are heard. However, it can also lead to dysfunction if one of the team leaders believes their opinion is not being respected.

We've heard rumblings about clashing at the top before, so I am inclined to believe something is a foot. But its amazing how winning can make everything better. If we lose, a head or two will roll, if we win, all will remain quiet at the house on Lakeshore.

[Oldtimer]

Discourse can be a positive if it leads to debate where all points of view are heard. However, it can also lead to dysfunction if one of the team leaders believes their opinion is not being respected.

We've heard rumblings about clashing at the top before, so I am inclined to believe something is a foot. But its amazing how winning can make everything better. If we lose, a head or two will roll, if we win, all will remain quiet at the house on Lakeshore.

Exactly. Who cares if it's all Kum Ba Ya, as long as they can work well enough together and the team wins. I'll be judging this experiment primarily by the mid-year results on the pitch.

[DangerRed]

Not sure what his being a Vancouver guy has anything to do with it. If it was Goff or Galarcep would it be any different?

The guy's VERY close to the Vancouver Whitecaps, as I understand it, even though he works for the Fan. Should we not be even a little skeptical of a Vancouver broadcaster shitting on the front office of the other two Canadian MLS teams?

This all carries a rich vein of irony, as well, given that the Whitecaps FO itself hasn't exactly been a model setup in terms of everyone getting along and singing kumbaya.

With that said, like someone else wrote, I expect drama from TFC, so I'll have to assume at least some of this is true.

[sully]

Neely would definitely be one source. Had heard earlier last year that there was friction within the FO and that DeKlerk was one of the more outspoken individuals in the group.

I would hope so. We were losers in the league - if there wasn't friction in the FO as a result, then that would be truly dysfunctional.

[Beach_Red]

^Definitely agree about Hungarians. This is absolutely true of them. Not sure it's so true of the Dutch though!

It's not some psychological problem to wonder if you should take this report seriously. There's pretty good evidence that the MLSE "management style" of setting things up with multiple power structures is a problem. Remember the confusion about the roles of Mo and Gansler, that caused Gansler to leave? What about Carver's appointment, when it wasn't at all clear just what the hell he was going to do at the team (the announcement was buried in a PR about DVP closings etc). Of course the Leafs are part of the evidence of this too...the hiring of JFJ over Quinn, but keeping Quinn...when Burke demanded that he be President and report to the Board, it was all the evidence anyone could ever need that any other setup with these people comes with a huge set of problems.

Sigh.


It's not an uncommon management style, especially in places where hiring and firing happen quite often. I see it in my job in TV all the time - multiple power structures, lots of confusion over who's doing what (a show has four exec producers, two producers, a network exec whose name doesn't even show up in the credits, a showrunner, directors, etc., an dthe particular duties aren't the same from show to show) and some guys who are expert at taking all the credit and making sure there's a lesser-experienced patsy in place to be fired if things go wrong.

It's always interesting to see who stays on the job when firings happen.

[ag futbol]

Not sure what his being a Vancouver guy has anything to do with it. If it was Goff or Galarcep would it be any different?
Well actttually Galarcep speculated on ICF that Marnier and Winter didn't exactly have a good working relationship. This thing seems to be bubbling up in a few corners ....

Personally, I don't care if they like each other, as long as they win. If anyone gets fired, I want the guy behind him replacing him at least until the two major DP contracts are up end of next year. The way I look at it, we might as well be locked to this management group until the end of next year because nobody else can be given the proper flexibility if they took over. So might as well stay the course.

I also don't want to change our system around again, and I think whoever comes in has to stay with what TFC is trying to do right now... just find their own style of implementing it.

FYI the reason I heard Neely left (from a pretty good source) was because he was tired of having upper management hit the reset button at the end of each season, which effectively negated long term progress.

[Canary10]

^ You beat me to it ag.

Ives actually reported this during the MLS combine way back in January.

[scooter]

must be the off season

[[NBF]]

This is the song that never ends, yeah it goes on and on my friends, some people started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll continue singing it because............. :deadhorse:

:hump:...............This is the song that never ends, yeah it goes on and on my friends, some people started singing it not knowing what it was and they'll continue singing it because............. :deadhorse:

[Roogsy]

^Definitely agree about Hungarians. This is absolutely true of them. Not sure it's so true of the Dutch though!

It's not some psychological problem to wonder if you should take this report seriously. There's pretty good evidence that the MLSE "management style" of setting things up with multiple power structures is a problem. Remember the confusion about the roles of Mo and Gansler, that caused Gansler to leave? What about Carver's appointment, when it wasn't at all clear just what the hell he was going to do at the team (the announcement was buried in a PR about DVP closings etc). Of course the Leafs are part of the evidence of this too...the hiring of JFJ over Quinn, but keeping Quinn...when Burke demanded that he be President and report to the Board, it was all the evidence anyone could ever need that any other setup with these people comes with a huge set of problems.

Sigh.

Exactly.

At some point it ceases to be a coincidence and you have to consider it as likely being part of the problem. The huge beaurocracy at MLSE and it's inclinations to construct these complex management schemes has not produced results. I would argue that the financial success MLSE has had has been as a result of the good fortune of being in the sports business and all the peripheral benefits that go along with that (TV channels, merch, hospitality) but in terms of actually knowing what they are doing in order to see results on the ice/court/pitch, they haven't got a clue. They're just spinning their wheels. Is there any other way to describe the sports clubs under their umbrella? A corporation with the branding, fanbase, money and season ticket base that MLSE has, they should be perennial contenders in all the sports they are involved in and it's exactly the opposite, they are perennial losers.

The MLSE structure is flawed. And it will continue to hinder all their clubs, TFC included.

[Auzzy]

^ I would tend to agree with that generally.

But I thought TFC's management structure was recommended (or at least OK'd) by Klinsmann? That would be a very different dynamic than what they've had in their other pro teams.

[Roogsy]

That strikes me as odd given that Klinsmann has never employed that structure before in his management positions, and does not employ it now.

So did he recommend just the people or the people and the structure? If it's he latter, I'd have to question why we are the guinea pigs and who thought taking that gamble was a good idea at a club that needed stability and immediate recovery.

[Ageroo]

That strikes me as odd given that Klinssman has never employed that structure before in his management positions, and does not employ it now.

So did he recommend just the people or the people and the structure? If it's he latter, I'd have to question why we are the guinea pigs and who thought taking that gamble was a good idea at a club that needed stability and immediate recovery.

hmmmm....that would be interesting to know if he did infact have a hand in the structure as well.

[Suds]

What's not clear is if this guy Schaad is actually reporting new information of his own or if he is just regurgitating what Ives already reported in January. Ives is no doubt a credible reporter so I'm not questioning him.

But this thread seems to put a lot of weight behind something a guy in Vancouver said and we have no idea if it's old news, new news, or just his opinion on what Ives reported.

[trane]

What I care ultimately is what happens on the pitch. AND I WILL SAY THIS NOW. If we do not start winning from day ONE, THERE ARE NO MORE EXCUSES in my mind. And any more well they need time shit, is just that shit. They have had enough time no matter how you look at it at this point. and Results talk, excuses walk.

I am going to put TFC at the same standard as I would any other team. NO EXCUSES. We clearly deserve butter already. YES I SAID IT WE DESERVE B-U-T-T-E-R.

[Fort York Redcoat]

All aboard the Butter Train!!!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eDxSxJwlXZ4/TqRx0LqBfOI/AAAAAAAAAas/hqnm1hXI-YU/s1600/butter1.jpg

[MarkEightThree]

Sooo close to a full off-season without any TFC drama. That had to be a new record.

I say let the results speak for themselves this year. De Klerk, Winter and Mariner don't have to be BFFs as long as they're winning. If they're not winning, then we have a problem. At least the players seem happier these days.

[trane]

All aboard the Butter Train!!!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eDxSxJwlXZ4/TqRx0LqBfOI/AAAAAAAAAas/hqnm1hXI-YU/s1600/butter1.jpg

hahahaha.
Trane is on the train. The butter one that is.

[GhostKiller]

Wow we are so used to drama that when we don't have it, we go looking for it.

OMG like did you hear that Winter toats doesn't like Marniers new hair. And De Klerk ignored Winters call when they were supposed to go out on King West. OMG LOL ROTFL

Weather its true or not, its one dude who is a whitecaps fan boy reporting it. Having whats shaping up to be a lengthy convo trying to validate it or discredit it is us just jumping to assumptions looking for something. I think they are doing a great job, and I haven't seen a fuckin shade of discontent between the two. If they don't go out for poutine every Wednesday, I don't care. If they hate each other, I don't care. (Which I haven't seen) They seem to be getting the job done well, and if they aren't, then lets start the rumor mill.

[Oldtimer]

Ives is not impartial in all of this. He is a close friend of Mo Johnston. Any replacement would not get his support.

Personally, I think we should ask an Impact fan what they think about TFC management. :rolleyes: May as well ask Bill Archer, a "respected blogger" for the KKKrew as well. :rolleyes:Then we can take whatever they say at face value and get depressed before the season begins. :facepalm:

(That's not to say ML$E isn't dysfunctional, but hopefully Klinnsman figured things out well enough to handle that. He's not a dummkopf).

[rocker]

btw, Schaad works for the caps in addition to his radio/TV work... he says as much in the podcast. Seems he does PR work for his "boss", the PR lady at Whitecaps. He also kisses so much Whitecap ass in that podcast, including calling the coaches "GQ coaches."

And remember... he calls the segment "rumours"... that's stuff he can't confirm apparently... he just heard it from someone on the field. Who? Who knows.

But everything is wonderful in Whitecap world, it seems, based on the report he gives of them.

[Canary10]

^ He probably heard it from Ives....

[Oldtimer]

^ Ives got it from a photograph.

[Alixir]

Geee someone from Vancouver bashing Toronto and Montreal...no fuckin way!!!!

[trane]

Was it last year or the year before, when bigsoccer, wrote about the RPB throwing bottles at players, from one or our threads, in which I joked about it being me throwing a bottle of water at somebody??? I wish I could rembemr the details but the whole thing was funny, in terms of the level of their journalism.

[Roogsy]

Geee someone from Vancouver bashing Toronto and Montreal...no fuckin way!!!!

Was it bashing? If this is information he came across, what is he supposed to do with it? Not mention it on his radio? Should we not be paying attention to the content as opposed to finding fault with the source unless there is good reason to do so?

It seems we are prescribing ulterior motives to this guy, calling into question his professionalism. Is there evidence he is a poor or biased journalist in general?

Seems to me the bashing is coming from our side. We have no evidence either way, but we seem quite willing to call into question someone's integrity because we don't like what he has to say.

I don't know this guy from Adam, but our reaction does seem irreconcileable to the accusations we are making against him.

[Oldtimer]

^ Roogsy, the guy himself said it was a "rumour," which means that it didn't meet journalistic criteria.

I'm not sure why you are attacking the people on this board. They are just pointing out some obvious facts.

[Beach_Red]

Seems to me the bashing is coming from our side. We have no evidence either way, but we seem quite willing to call into question someone's integrity because we don't like what he has to say.




It seems perfectly natural that we want to defend our own. No one is disputing Ensco's point that it's an odd situation, two guys who were both hired at the same time by someone else and there may be overlap in their responsibilities, but we haven't actually seen any conflict.

This season really can't start soon enough :).

[ag futbol]

I just frankly don't care.

Winter could have De Clerk and Marnier tied up in the basement between games for sadistic purposes for all it matters. If we make the playoffs, job well done.

In fact, if it's working I recommend he tie up a few of the assistants as well.

[Oldtimer]

I'm actually not worried about Winter, Mariner.

My only concern is about Earl Cochrane, because he's the only one left over from the old regime in a senior position.

Anyways, I'm planning to look at results. Not something that some Vancouver journalist employed by the Whitecaps admits is just a rumour, no matter how amazing his credentials are.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

^ Ives got it from a photograph.

yeah all it was was speculation from a photograph, even then it looked like they were shooting daggers at the journalist rather than each other. I dunno if he was expecting them to be sitting in each others laps.

[mowe]

^ Ives got it from a photograph.

Actually he got it from seeing them at the SuperDraft. He said that unlike other front office executives, Winter and Mariner were never seen together and didn't seem to have a good relationship. Of course this was all anecdotal, but it's something to think about.

And are people really dismissing Schaad because they think he's trying to create drama for TFC to make Vancouver look better? I can believe that he heard some rumours in Orlando about Winter/Mariner.

In any case, no one is saying that TFC's front office is dysfunctional and doomed. It's just whisperings that Winter and Mariner are not on the best of terms (which is completely within the realm of possibilty). This kind of stuff never gets officially confirmed and stays in the rumour phase. Take it as that.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Was it bashing? If this is information he came across, what is he supposed to do with it? Not mention it on his radio? Should we not be paying attention to the content as opposed to finding fault with the source unless there is good reason to do so?



We have the content. We don't put a lot of faith in the source.

Case closed. Unless you find new evidence, of course.

[Roogsy]

^ Roogsy, the guy himself said it was a "rumour," which means that it didn't meet journalistic criteria.

I'm not sure why you are attacking the people on this board. They are just pointing out some obvious facts.

Attacking? :noidea:

Accusing the reporter without basis that he has ultierior motives isn't exactly "pointing out obvious facts". And my highlighting that point out can't possibly be considered attacking can it? I know we're looking for reasons to ban me but please make sure it's legitimate.

[Oldtimer]

Actually he got it from seeing them at the SuperDraft. He said that unlike other front office executives, Winter and Mariner were never seen together and didn't seem to have a good relationship. Of course this was all anecdotal, but it's something to think about.



Correction:
It was not seeing them pal around together, plus the photograph.

[pekduck]

Attacking? :noidea:

Accusing the reporter without basis that he has ultierior motives isn't exactly "pointing out obvious facts". And my highlighting that point out can't possibly be considered attacking can it? I know we're looking for reasons to ban me but please make sure it's legitimate.

sigh... good old roogs....

why can't this board be a pub with pints flowing :D

[Oldtimer]

Attacking? :noidea:

Accusing the reporter without basis that he has ultierior motives isn't exactly "pointing out obvious facts". And my highlighting that point out can't possibly be considered attacking can it? I know we're looking for reasons to ban me but please make sure it's legitimate.

If we are going to talk baseless accusations, let's start right here.

Anyways, did you listen to the clip? Maybe some people formed their opinion based on some evidence.

[Chevy]

Wow. Rumour reports on 3 alpha male personalities clashing.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/210/119/+_2acc5a8841f8752904d37f90a8014829.png

Thanks Vancouver.





+1000. This rumour sure brought out the Debbie Downer's in full force, which is always entertaining to watch.

Regardles, I would be upset if there WASN'T conflict within our management team. They should be challenging each other, they should be fightin tooth and nail for what they believe is best for the club. Mo lazily ran around unchallenged for years - look how that worked out.

Like any good management team, Mariner et al are seasoned and respected professionals that are expected to, and should be able to add value and work within an environment that includes conflict. End of story.

[Roogsy]

We have the content. We don't put a lot of faith in the source.

Case closed. Unless you find new evidence, of course.

Seems like a double-standard if you ask me. When some players are accused of dogging it in practice or misbehaving or having too much candy or whatever, we buy it unquestioningly without much to go on, even less than what we have here. But when it suits us we dismiss real live media people.

Just pointing out the irregularity here.

[prizby]

i wonder what shcaad has to say about having only 2.5 canadians on the vancouver roster

[Fort York Redcoat]

Seems like a double-standard if you ask me. When some players are accused of dogging it in practice or misbehaving or having too much candy or whatever, we buy it unquestioningly without much to go on, even less than what we have here. But when it suits us we dismiss real live media people.

Just pointing out the irregularity here.

If you find that unfair that the reporter that has Vancouver ties that got evidence from a photo isn't being treated seriously enough than that's your opinion.

And thereby valid.

[iy12l]

rumors are that Tom Soehn will be returning to Vancouver as their starting defensive midfielder

[Canary10]

It's not hard to believe they don't get along. After all, the English and the Dutch have very different footballing philosophies. The English like to put the biggest names they have out on the pitch, have them play like timid gerbils, fall flat and wimper out of major tournaments. The Dutch on the other hand, like to put the biggest names they have out on the pitch, have a big hissy fit amongst them, attack each other, and wimper out of major tournaments. Based on stark philosophical and tactical differences like these, it's only natural Winter and Mariner wouldn't get along.

[Dub Narcotic]

There were two part to his report:

1) The ignorance about other MLS players from members of the Montreal and TFC executives. He claims to have heard this personally.

2) The rumours of dissension in the TFC imperial triumverate. This is just reporting the talk around Orlando and is something he has no personal experience of.

I'll send him a message on Twitter to see if he feels like responding.

[Oldtimer]

I heard Koevs saying something about signing Messi! Just a rumour though...

[Roogsy]

If we are going to talk baseless accusations, let's start right here.

It's not a baseless accusation, I am quite certain of it. If you'd like to chat about it please PM me.


Anyways, did you listen to the clip? Maybe some people formed their opinion based on some evidence.

Yes I did. To be honest, this whole thread makes the quote out to be more than it is. It's an hour podcast and 15 minutes in he literally spends all of 10 seconds mentioning something that has been circulating in the tournament, meaning he isn't the only one that has heard it but at no point did he make it sound like he had investigated it personally. Just an off-hand comment about what had been heard around those parts. That was it. He seemed to spend more time on the Kandji issue which I think he was implied was Toronto's shortcoming.

From that we have prescribed ulterior motives to him being a "Whitecaps" employee as if guys like Dan Dunleavy can't do his job as the play-calling guy while retaining his integriy as a journalist.

I don't know this guy. TFC fans can continue to rip into him all they like, but this cult of personality around the infallibility of management is what got us into the Mo predicament in the first place, just pointing it out.

[Oldtimer]

There were two part to his report:

1) The ignorance about other MLS players from members of the Montreal and TFC executives. He claims to have heard this personally.



Since you posted the original link, you must believe in him strongly. I guess only Vancouver has their act together in Canada. :)

[ensco]

There were two part to his report:

1) The ignorance about other MLS players from members of the Montreal and TFC executives. He claims to have heard this personally.

2) The rumours of dissension in the TFC imperial triumverate. This is just reporting the talk around Orlando and is something he has no personal experience of.

I'll send him a message on Twitter to see if he feels like responding.

I think being interested in these questions, which were put on the record by a named journalist, doesn't make you less of a TFC fan. Not saying I reflexively think they must be true.

But they are consistent with a couple of known facts.

[Fort York Redcoat]

^Really because I think there are only a couple people trying to perpetuate the importance of this rumour.

[Roogsy]

If you find that unfair that the reporter that has Vancouver ties that got evidence from a photo isn't being treated seriously enough than that's your opinion.

And thereby valid.


I'd have to question whether you listened to the podcast. Can you cite me the time stamp where he says he got the evidence from a photo?

[Fort York Redcoat]

^Only you would ask for more proof after I say your POV is valid Roogsy.

I'm not interested in the podcast. I'd love to here your report if its based on more evidence than rumour though.

[Roogsy]

^Only you would ask for more proof after I say your POV is valid Roogsy.

I'm not interested in the podcast. I'd love to here your report if its based on more evidence than rumour though.

So you admit you don't listen to the podcast but dismiss it anyways. Correct? Just confirming the facts as I understand them.

BTW, this was your statement:


If you find that unfair that the reporter that has Vancouver ties that got evidence from a photo isn't being treated seriously enough than that's your opinion.

And thereby valid.

Since at no point was my opinion that the reporter got his evidence from a photo nor that such an opinion should be treated seriously if that is where he got his opinion from, I can only conclude that it is in fact your opinion that he formulated his opinion from a photo, because that certainly wasn't my suggestion. If not, I invite you to clarify this (seemingly) condascending retort.

[Oldtimer]

^ Roogsy, do you have evidence that he didn't get it from Ives? Otherwise, if he says it's a rumour (i.e. unsubstantiated), it's a reasonable assumption.

I'm looking forward to his replies to Dub's tweet.

[Roogsy]

It's a logical fallacy to prove a negative James.

I challenge you to prove that he did get it from Ives. At no point did I or anyone suggest he did not position this as a rumour. He was quite clear about that. Yet despite that qualification, he was accused of an agenda. That's all I am pointing out.

Considering the fact that I heard this particular rumour last spring, is there anything stopping the current discussion to have originated from any number of players participating in Orlando or beyond? Who is to say Ives is not the source and merely one of several who have heard the same thing?

[Fort York Redcoat]

So you admit you don't listen to the podcast but dismiss it anyways. Correct? Just confirming the facts as I understand them.


I admit nothing



Since at no point was my opinion that the reporter got his evidence from a photo nor that such an opinion should be treated seriously if that is where he got his opinion from, I can only conclude that it is in fact your opinion that he formulated his opinion from a photo, because that certainly wasn't my suggestion. If not, I invite you to clarify this (seemingly) condascending retort.

Are you saying that I was being condescending to you Roogsy? I was commenting on other comments presented as fact in the thread. Do you think I should I hold my tongue and trust rumour from opposition before people in this group?

Enough digression.

:topic:

Dub Narcotic is off getting confirmation. Let's see what he gets.

[Roogsy]

I admit nothing



Are you saying that I was being condescending to you Roogsy? I was commenting on other comments presented as fact in the thread. Do you think I should I hold my tongue and trust rumour from opposition before people in this group?

Enough digression.

:topic:

Dub Narcotic is off getting confirmation. Let's see what he gets.

I am not sure why you engage me if you are going to avoid responding to queries of support for your own points, especially when you have stated incorrect facts.

[Brooker]

Lol what a hard hitting rumor. What a scoop!

Some legit evidence would be nice... but of course is never needed around here to start down the sky is falling route.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm with Roogsy. Let's wait for proof.

EbaxSNh3KB4

[Pookie]

BIG SCOOP

The other day, I had a disagreement with a fellow Sales Director and our General Manager, all in the same day. Apparently, there are disagreements in management board rooms across the country. Why, some probably even happened today.

Is "Management Discontent" now at an all time epidemic-level???

[Roogsy]

I think it would help all these discussions that arise out of the many rumours that surround TFC over the course of the year, to come to some sort of agreement of what "evidence" actually is and how much of it is actually attainable. I stated last year that many things come out and others simply get buried. For the outsider, you will never get 100% of the story so at what point do you make an educated guess? When does a fan stop rationalizing on behalf of one side and accept the accumulation of circumstantial evidence on the other? Because usually as fans, that is all you will ever get.

And I am not sure what the whole "sky is falling" point is about. Is that the default argumentation any time someone points out something going on at TFC? You can't debate the actual points so you respond with a sarcastic hyporbole? I don't think I need to say it holds poor argumentative value and really is just weak logical strategy.

[Roogsy]

I'm with Roogsy. Let's wait for proof.

EbaxSNh3KB4


:lol:

[denime]

I was told there is power struggle between Winter and Thomas Rongen.















:lurk5:

[Whoop]

You guys should be present in some scouting meetings. LOL

A friend of mine was in a pretty heated argument, regarding a player, with a colleague that carried over to dinner when he ended up being threatened with a steak knife.

Same friend when the two of guys got into an argument that he knew I was winning could only resort to say "suck my cock" which produced a series of laughs from the rest of the staff as he turned red and agitated.

I've been in the room when two guys threatened to "settle this argument outside".

It's sports. It's competitive, there are going to be arguments.

At the end of the day, it's the results that matter. If the team doesn't get the results, then there should be consequences.

And if the relationship is so tarnished that it creates unneeded animosity and no one is being productive then it's up to the higher ups to take care of it.

[Ageroo]

I was told there is power struggle between Winter and Thomas Rongen.















:lurk5:

Well now you've done it......you've just added a fourth person to this triumvirate!

[Ageroo]

And if the relationship is so tarnished that it creates unneeded animosity and no one is being productive then it's up to the higher ups to take care of it.

I don't have faith in Anselmi to do this.......do you? :D

[ensco]

I don't have faith in Anselmi to do this.......do you? :D

At last. The post everyone can agree on.

[Chevy]

I don't have faith in Anselmi to do this.......do you? :D

Oh no, now we have a fifth! They cant even hug it out over a round of golf! We're doomed!!!

[Roogsy]

You guys should be present in some scouting meetings. LOL

A friend of mine was in a pretty heated argument, regarding a player, with a colleague that carried over to dinner when he ended up being threatened with a steak knife.

Same friend when the two of guys got into an argument that he knew I was winning could only resort to say "suck my cock" which produced a series of laughs from the rest of the staff as he turned red and agitated.

I've been in the room when two guys threatened to "settle this argument outside".

It's sports. It's competitive, there are going to be arguments.

At the end of the day, it's the results that matter. If the team doesn't get the results, then there should be consequences.

And if the relationship is so tarnished that it creates unneeded animosity and no one is being productive then it's up to the higher ups to take care of it.


I agree.

However, what I heard last year was worrisome, more of the "can't work together well" type. But since I did not hear anything until this latest rumour, I thought they had squashed it. If it has reappeared, then I am inclined to believe it had not been squashed and I don't think anyone believes that stressed working relationships will last. Will it affect the team? I'd have to believe it can but it isn't completely necessary that it does. Depending on how MLSE handles it...which comes back to the point of do they even know how?

[mowe]

^ Roogsy, do you have evidence that he didn't get it from Ives? Otherwise, if he says it's a rumour (i.e. unsubstantiated), it's a reasonable assumption.

He clearly said that the rumour was going around Orlando. He probably got it from one of the teams' staff. I for one completely believe he heard something like that there (not saying that this rumour should be a big deal, but I do think it's interesting and worth talking about).

It seems to me that some people are implying that this Vancouver reporter saw Ives' tweet and decides to contribute to the rumour by completely making something up on his podcast a month later. The motive apparently would be to make Vancouver look good in contrast to dysfunctional TFC. Those people are insane.

[Damien]

Schaad probably overheard them talking about a disagreement over something trivial like what color pen he should have used on the last piece of paperwork they were signing and construed it as "TFC management in shambles".... sounds like broken telephone.

[ensco]

We'll find out in due course. These things never go away if they matter, and never matter if they don't.

Off to watch the Hacken game (a bit of it anyway).

Hat tip to the mods - it's a tough job. We all owe them thanks.

[Oldtimer]

It seems to me that some people are implying that this Vancouver reporter saw Ives' tweet and decides to contribute to the rumour by completely making something up on his podcast a month later. The motive apparently would be to make Vancouver look good in contrast to dysfunctional TFC. Those people are insane.

Attacking people is not allowed on this board. Step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath. Then discuss the argument without cheap shots.

[mowe]

Attacking people is not allowed on this board. Step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath. Then discuss the argument without cheap shots.

LOL, you're kidding right? I specifically didn't mention names. The last sentence was me saying "I can't believe some people might actually think that, they're crazy!". It wasn't a cheap shot, I was just trying to convey how ridiculous I felt the situation was.

In any case, I sincerely apologize to anyone who felt attacked by my post.

Go Reds.

[jloome]

btw, Schaad works for the caps in addition to his radio/TV work... he says as much in the podcast. Seems he does PR work for his "boss", the PR lady at Whitecaps. He also kisses so much Whitecap ass in that podcast, including calling the coaches "GQ coaches."

And remember... he calls the segment "rumours"... that's stuff he can't confirm apparently... he just heard it from someone on the field. Who? Who knows.

But everything is wonderful in Whitecap world, it seems, based on the report he gives of them.

I notice one thing absent from any of these reports so far: a source.

Well, that and one other thing: a journalist with a credible history of breaking sourced stories.

Yeesh.

[Parkdale]

I agree.

However,...



I can't think of a better statement to define this off-season.

:incazzato:

[Kaz]

So let me see if I get this straight. A reporter/podcaster from Vancouver, with ties to the Whitecaps, heard a second hand rumor of TFC coaching staff not agreeing well during a heated time in preseason.

We know Winter is not happy with the group of teams he's been given, and would have preferred MLS sides. We know after the game on Saturday that things were not all smiles, due to the quality of play. So three guys under some stress possibly got into a discussion, that was heated or interpreted as heated, or seen as been guys not getting along well.

Roogsy has heard nothing about issues between everyone since last year, but apparently there may have been in the first year, and Ives apparently tweeted some crap like Ives tends too.


Is it possible that this individual with journalistic chops, heard a rumor that was misinterpreted at it's source? and then may have been influenced by some of the growing pain issues from last year, and further influenced by Ives opinions. And that is why Roogsy has heard nothing recently about issues with the staff?

It may be something more... but I think everyone can agree that this is a rumor, that may not hold weight, and if it does we will most likely know (or some people may) shortly after the season starts.

Until then maybe it should be put in the back of our minds, and if new info populates then we can added it to this and see if new light is brought.

I know it's a slow off season, but that is no reason to go all lord of the flies.

[Dub Narcotic]

Well, I'm not sure why this is so controversial, this whole report is pretty standard reportage. Anyways, Schaad addressed this thread(!) on yesterday's podcast.

[Roogsy]

Well, I'm not sure why this is so controversial, this whole report is pretty standard reportage. Anyways, Schaad addressed this thread(!) on yesterday's podcast.

OMG :eek:

Schadd is my hero.

[mowe]

Well, I'm not sure why this is so controversial, this whole report is pretty standard reportage. Anyways, Schaad addressed this thread(!) on yesterday's podcast.

Just listened. Here's what he said:

-Luke Wileman referred him to this thread
-Surprised that people criticized him rather than the management of their own team for not knowing Alderson/Kandji
-He was concerned, not trying to be critical
-Wants TFC/Impact to dominate East, sell out every game etc, same with Vancouver
-Winning environment benefits CMNT, youth development
-Everyone in the Whitecaps organization wants other Canadian clubs to be successful
-Some people are narrow-minded about their club and take any criticism from outside as biased or adversarial
-Media's job is to seek truth and report it, that's what he did
-Sorry if the truth hurts

Didn't sound like a guy out to bring TFC/Impact down. Seems like he just mentioned what he heard (Alderson/Kandji thing directly and the TFC FO rift from another source).

[NBS]

Don't really care how the interpersonal relationships work. They could beat each other like baby seals.

I'll judge their results, and their results only.

[rocker]

Schaad's talking about "truth"? If so, why doesn't he tell us exactly who said what. I'm supposed to believe that, apparently, the whole of TFC management doesn't know who Bryce Alderson is? or is it just one person, as I assume he means. Was it Winter? Mariner? De Klerk? Rongen? or is it Montreal that doesn't know who Alderson is, and TFC doesn't know who Kandji is? He doesn't say.

Then he references a "source" that TFC is in disarray. Who's the source? Montreal Impact? His own bosses, Vancouver? lol. He wouldn't be the first guy to be last in line at the telephone game.

Hey, maybe the guy isn't biased and honestly believes he's reporting the truth. But that doesn't mean he's actually reporting the truth.

And there are too many questions left unanswered by his vague "reporting" for me to get riled up. If for example Winter or De Klerk was the one who didn't know who Bryce Alderson was, I wouldn't give a shit. If it was Mariner, maybe, since Mariner should know up and coming talent. But De Klerk and Winter are first team coaches. But Schaad doesn't tell us.

So I'm supposed to have some generalized worry because of some vague accounts from some dude who calls games for the Whitecaps?

Maybe Schaad should ask Martin Rennie about some of TFC's top academy talent.

[Whoop]

Not to make excuses, but in regards to Bryce Alderson, he joined Vancouver's residency team before Winter/Mariner took over. So really if anyone is to blame it's Earl Cochrane or perhaps someone like Stuart Neely who is now employed by Vancouver especially considering he played at Lamport in 2010.

http://club.whitecapsfc.com/pdl/roster/players/bryce_alderson.aspx

Joined Vancouver's residency in September 2010

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Whitecaps+sign+Canadian+player+year+Bryce+Alderson/5728754/story.html

Vancouver could sign him because he was outside Toronto's jurisdiction, which was smart on Vancouver's part.

And how did Kandji get in the mix?

[iy12l]

Vancouver think they are the best canadian team even when we kicked thier butt 2 times in 1 week. Hope we beat them like 5-0 this year.

[Shakes McQueen]

Just listened. Here's what he said:

-Luke Wileman referred him to this thread
-Surprised that people criticized him rather than the management of their own team for not knowing Alderson/Kandji
-He was concerned, not trying to be critical
-Wants TFC/Impact to dominate East, sell out every game etc, same with Vancouver
-Winning environment benefits CMNT, youth development
-Everyone in the Whitecaps organization wants other Canadian clubs to be successful
-Some people are narrow-minded about their club and take any criticism from outside as biased or adversarial
-Media's job is to seek truth and report it, that's what he did
-Sorry if the truth hurts

Didn't sound like a guy out to bring TFC/Impact down. Seems like he just mentioned what he heard (Alderson/Kandji thing directly and the TFC FO rift from another source).

Forgot this thread existed, so forgive the lateness of my jumping back in.

The media's job is to aid in the search for truth, but that doesn't automatically mean that everything they report IS truth, nor that whatever limited circumstantial evidence they uncover is automatically sufficient enough to be considered "truth".

As I said before - I completely allow for the possibility that the rumours he is reporting are accurate. But I'm not made more bullish on that point when he seemingly doesn't understand the basic tenets of what journalism is.

This is especially true of sports journalism where lots of people have anonymous sources, and even the best insiders are wrong from time to time - which is precisely why anonymous news sources are generally only acceptable when it's to protet the source from direct reprisals from their superiors, in the first place; so we can transparently evaluate the quality of the source. And in that case, only with further corroboration from other, more concrete sources.

Rumours and gossip are held to a less rigorous standard of veracity, but should also be treated less substantially as a result. In this case, we don't appear to have piles of circumstantial evidence showing anything - we have Roogsy hearing something months ago, then nothing, then Schaad saying he heard about problems from someone. Not exactly a moving account.

I've endured far too many occasions of political journalists "reporting" whatever the White House or other politicians tell them, without first confirming those claims, to simply accept this kind of stuff at face value.

EDIT: I should also add an apology in advance if any of the above is incomprehensible. I've been up for many, many hours.

- Scott

[ag futbol]

It's a logical fallacy to prove a negative James.

I challenge you to prove that he did get it from Ives.
We're discrediting unsubstantiated rumors with unsubstantiated rumors. That's not a logical fallacy, it's the definition of irony.

[Roogsy]

Actually you missed the point. James' request was not that I prove where Schadd got his info from, but where he did not get it from. He obviously got it from somewhere. Therefore the logical fallacy is in asking someone to prove the negative or the non-existant rather than to acknowledge the obvious or the factual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

[ensco]

We're discrediting unsubstantiated rumors with unsubstantiated rumors. That's not a logical fallacy, it's the definition of irony.

Actually the definition of irony is pious finger wagging about "sources" and "evidence" on an internet message board.

[Oldtimer]

I just listened to the follow-up broadcast (actually, just the first part where he deals with this very thread, it's hard to listen to all the glory that is the Whitecaps ;) ). He's right that we shouldn't "shoot the messenger," but he also makes it clear that any disagreement between Winter & Mariner was one of differing opinions. To me that's no surprise at all, in fact I demand that they challenge each other, as I don't want to ever see again the unquestioning "one man show" that Mo held. By the way, he said nothing of them "not working well together," either in the first or the second podcast. That's more an extrapolation that developed on this board.

[Roogsy]

I think you're twisting things to sound better than the rumour suggests. The rumour last year (and by continuation this year) isn't that they have a differing of opinion, it's that they can't stand each other and if that is the case it's not about whether they "challenge" each other but whether they can work together at all. In that sort of situation there is usually a moment of truth or a parting of ways. After all, challenging each other would be productive if they were Frei and Kocic fighting for a starting position but these guys are managers tasked with building together.

For me the concern is that we pay lipservice to the principle of learning from the Mo years where he went mostly unquestioned and yet I see the same from us fans here where we are given a heads up about possible problems among the staff and our reaction is to get offended this radio guy has the audacity to say anything about our club short of praise which I am sure we would have taken at face value.

[Oldtimer]

The rumour that they can't stand each other was sparked by Ives noticing that they didn't do social things together. That has nothing to do with what our journalist was reporting on, and he made that quite clear. He said that they had differences of opinion, not that they hated each other or that they could not work together.

I can stand them not being best buddies if they can have a professional working relationship. I'm sure most of us have worked with people who we wouldn't be friends with, but have been able to work well enough with. That's all I expect of Winter & Mariner.

As I said earlier in this thread, Mariner had an excellent chance to get out of TFC and take over with the Revs, and Winter did not have to say he would renew his contract if offered. I am not worried. You can be worried if you choose to be.

[mowe]

The rumour that they can't stand each other was sparked by Ives noticing that they didn't do social things together.

Not true. Ives said that from talking to Mariner and Winter at the SuperDraft he never got the sense that they have a great working relationship. They seemed to be avoiding each other and were never seen together unlike other teams' general manager/coach equivalents. It wasn't about doing social things together, it was at the SuperDraft.

Not saying that that makes it significant, I'm just making sure people have their facts right. Here's CSN's interview with Ives (relevant topic starts at 19:00): http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?2764-It-s-Called-Football-Guest-Ives-Galarcep .

[Roogsy]

Which only validates my belief that Ives' position has been mischaracterized to minimize the difficulties.

[Chevy]

I think you're twisting things to sound better than the rumour suggests. The rumour last year (and by continuation this year) isn't that they have a differing of opinion, it's that they can't stand each other and if that is the case it's not about whether they "challenge" each other but whether they can work together at all. In that sort of situation there is usually a moment of truth or a parting of ways. After all, challenging each other would be productive if they were Frei and Kocic fighting for a starting position but these guys are managers tasked with building together.

For me the concern is that we pay lipservice to the principle of learning from the Mo years where he went mostly unquestioned and yet I see the same from us fans here where we are given a heads up about possible problems among the staff and our reaction is to get offended this radio guy has the audacity to say anything about our club short of praise which I am sure we would have taken at face value.

Funny how you stood staunchly behind DeRo as he relentlessly stirred s**t up, but now believe we should all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Hypocracy at its finest.

Also real funny how your brilliance is now somehow validated due to what some hack 'sensed' from afar, and a number of unsubstantiated rumours. Low standards I think most would admit.

It is ridiculously obvious to all on these boards where your motivation comes from. Validating this, I didn't notice any positive comments from you in the Dallas victory thread. Or for that matter the FIRST Dallas victory thread. Why? I guess you just missed those ones, right? A double oversight perhaps? I sincerely hope we fucking kill LA next week so you will go back into your hole for a week or two. Give the boards back for those that actually want success for this organization

My suggestion - give it up man, it's becoming old. Other than the entertainment you provide the non-narcissists and/or budding psychologists reading these threads, it adds zero value to what this place is supposed to be - discussion and debate in SUPPORT of the club. Take your ball and go home.

Rant over. Feel free to cry to mods and ban if needed as I will be travelling on busines and then leisure for the next few weeks.

[Shakes McQueen]

Where the hell did all of that come from? LOL

- Scott

[denime]

Funny how you stood staunchly behind DeRo as he relentlessly stirred s**t up, but now believe we should all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Hypocracy at its finest.

Also real funny how your brilliance is now somehow validated due to what some hack 'sensed' from afar, and a number of unsubstantiated rumours. Low standards I think most would admit.

It is ridiculously obvious to all on these boards where your motivation comes from. Validating this, I didn't notice any positive comments from you in the Dallas victory thread. Or for that matter the FIRST Dallas victory thread. Why? I guess you just missed those ones, right? A double oversight perhaps? I sincerely hope we fucking kill LA next week so you will go back into your hole for a week or two. Give the boards back for those that actually want success for this organization

My suggestion - give it up man, it's becoming old. Other than the entertainment you provide the non-narcissists and/or budding psychologists reading these threads, it adds zero value to what this place is supposed to be - discussion and debate in SUPPORT of the club. Take your ball and go home.

Rant over. Feel free to cry to mods and ban if needed as I will be travelling on busines and then leisure for the next few weeks.

He does not have to "cry to mods",mods will do their job when they see foul play.

If you want to argue with Roogsy,do it all day long, no problem,but do it without personal attacks,something you just did in this post.

I will report this post now to all mods,and they will make next step.

[Roogsy]

Ugh, I've got the man on ignore please don't quote him.

And I haven't reported anyone. If anyone has been infracted, they managed to do that on their own.

[Oldtimer]

I'm not worried. Some others are terribly worried, including apparently a broadcaster for the Whitecaps who wants TFC to be a winner to support Canadian soccer... or something like that, as well as a couple of people on this board. To each their own.

I'm too busy looking at things like how well the academy kids held up against the Whitecaps first team. It was impressive. It's great to see a consistent system through all of the club... the players are interchangeable... and ultimately so are the coaches. It's a real tribute to Klinssman's plan. If Winter doesn't work out... why we've got a handy MLS-experienced coach in Rongen. All the parts are interchangeable, it's playing a consistent style that makes it so. So it really doesn't matter to me if it's Winter... or Rongen... or someone else from Holland. I really don't care. We now have a plan that transcends the individual pieces. So the future is bright IMO.

Pretty impressive what Klinnsman's done with the USMNT as well. He was well worth ML$E's dime. For all of their institutional stupidity and incompetence, they got this one right.

[GuelphStorm2007]

I could care less what someone from Van City says about TFC or the Impact for that matter. Lets face it I can see Mariner Deklerk and Winter disagreeing on things in the pro sports business that is normal, I once read somewere that When Bill Parcells was coaching the Giants a majority of his assistants could stand him and also the same with Scotty Bowman when he coaching the Habs and The Red wings, Look they finally have a system in place and based on what I saw last nite with TFC Juniors against a First string Whitecaps squad our future seems brite.

[CSO_BBTB]

I've often wondered what would happen if Danny Dyer did a Football Factories documentary on TFC's fan culture. Suspect it would go something like this:

<Danny D walking past Lamport Stadium and the gritty rundown urban landscape of Liberty Village>

I'm meeting ***** from the Red Patch Boys and he's going to be showing me around his manor. Hard geezer, pwopa naughty, from Banja Luka, I don't know what to expect, hard geezer, Delije he's been with the Delije, they're always up for a tear up, I'm a bit nervous about this one, this geezer says he's 25% German 100% Yugoslav but everybody's too scared to ask him how that's possible, hard geezer, Bosnia, pwopa naughty, tear up, Yugoslavia, hard geezer.

<Danny D approaches the patio at Shoeless Joe's>

*****, good to meet you mate. So, if someone gets a bit mouthy with one of your top boys, gets a bit out of line yeah, what do you do, you give 'im a bit of a slap, roight?


He does not have to "cry to mods",mods will do their job when they see foul play.

If you want to argue with Roogsy,do it all day long, no problem,but do it without personal attacks,something you just did in this post.

I will report this post now to all mods,and they will make next step.

:canada:

As for Peter Schaad and his comments I would have thought that having what was not much more than an Academy team hold the Whitecaps to 0-1 would be a source for major concern right now out in the land of the well hidden grow op in lower mainland BC.

:flare: :scarf: :flare: :scarf: :flare: :scarf: :flare: :scarf: :flare:

[ensco]

Seriously, all this finger-wagging and tsk-tsking about being a "good fan" (in reference to these stories), I have to say, this cracks me up. I mean, there are multiple media reports about this!

Schopenhauer said a fantastic thing that I have found very useful in life: "First the truth is ridiculed. Then it meets with outrage. Then it is said to have been obvious all along".

[Roogsy]

Seriously, all this finger-wagging and tsk-tsking about being a "good fan" (in reference to these stories), I have to say, this cracks me up. I mean, there are multiple media reports about this!

Schopenhauer said a fantastic thing that I have found very useful in life: "First the truth is ridiculed. Then it meets with outrage. Then it is said to have been obvious all along".


That pattern has held true in several instances here in Toronto. I've never heard that quote before but man is it every true.

[mcolvy]

Am I the only one who values De Klerk very high? I feel like if Mariner and Winter don't get along/ in time if Winter wants to move to bigger things as with his pedigree in Europe he would want to amount to then, I feel like we could leave the duties to De Klerk. He basically runs all our practices and is a tactics guy through and through and a teacher.
With Winter being the Technical Director and De Klerk the first assistant, there is no real 'coach'. Most assume Winter, but during the bulk of the season last year De Klerk ran the practices while Winter just watched.
De Klerk is more then capable of running this team.

[Oldtimer]

^ The things is, when you have a system like Ajax or Barcelona, you could lose a coach and slot another right in. The system stays the same.

[ensco]

^ The things is, when you have a system like Ajax or Barcelona, you could lose a coach and slot another right in. The system stays the same.

You are right to hammer away at this. It's true, and a very important positive thing for the team.

[Oldtimer]

You are right to hammer away at this. It's true, and a very important positive thing for the team.

The only question I had last year was "can an MLS/NCAA/Canadian Academy player adapt to a relatively sophisticated system?

Seeing the kids do so well at Disney set my mind at ease.

[Shakes McQueen]

The only question I had last year was "can an MLS/NCAA/Canadian Academy player adapt to a relatively sophisticated system?

Seeing the kids do so well at Disney set my mind at ease.

I had a perma-smile on my face, watching the kids in the Disney Cup final. They handled that game with more calm and composure than our starting team most previous years, despite being boys against men.

- Scott