Club or Country?

[A.J]

Which one do you value more?

If you had to pick one, which one would you rather see?
TFC as the MLS champions

or

Canadian national team reaching the World Cup.

[London]

if it was Canada winning then i would have voted Canada but qualifying isnt that big of a deal to me,

making it and getting crushed in the round robin is kinda lackluster in my opinion.


and yes i understand that Canada has only made it 1 time before

[mowe]

World Cup easily. It means far more in soccer than winning a domestic league (a mid-tier league no less).

Just qualifying for a World Cup would be huge for soccer in this country.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

gotta say i grew up watching the german national team play and didnt know about Canadas team until I was about 20. I do like them and want to see them win but Im not fanatical about them. On the other hand I live and breathe TFC. Definitely club over country.

[Wull]

TFC. If the question was them or Scotland it may be different but I consider myself a Torontonian first and foremost since I moved here

[prizby]

picked neither because i rather canada past the group stages or TFC as CCL champions

[J .]

Canada making the WC. My bags are packed the moment it happens.

[CountryoverClub]

I've supported TFC from the very first kick, and local pro soccer far before the reds were around....but no doubt it my mind would i rather see our nation in the World Cup:canada::canada:

[MartinUtd]

I follow England before Canada but I still picked country because I looked at it from a player's stand point. I'd hate for TFC to start dictating who get's to join their national team (if called upon). That's the one thing I didn't like about the Carver era, him dropping people down the depth chart because they wanted to represent their country.

[Relja]

I would rather see both. But for the sake of choice id rather see Canada in World cup. Because the World Cup happens every four years and it would give some of the younger players the incentive to play for Canada rather than other countries.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

If canada was a regular at the world cup...there might be a differnt outcome in this poll...

example..Canada Winning hockey gold in 2014 or Leafs making the sTANLEY CUp final?

Club will always be first for me....but Canada is also right there

[Fort York Redcoat]

Country.Always.

<3:canada::flare::drum::flare::canada:<3

[jazzy]

Country.Always.

<3:canada::flare::drum::flare::canada:<3

boom.....TFC is my team but,.........I'm happy just to see them play attractive successful, footie...at this point....as for my country,.....these guys play for nothing else but heart and soul.............very meaningful for everyone who benefits from this amazing country.....if you live here you should give something back.......support is free

[kodiakTFC]

TFC as CWC Champs or Canada in the World Cup would've been better.

[JuliquE]

Country.Always.

<3:canada::flare::drum::flare::canada:<3
And boom goes the dynamite.

Just too much win, there.

[Heart of Stone]

Country Always ... same with Canadian Men's National basketball team over the Raptors...

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

I went club. I don't consider myself unpatriotic, I just don't make a huge connection between patriotism and sport. I'll watch any and all soccer, but I've always been more into club competition.

[KezmanCCCC]

i would like to see both at some point.... but right now i would take canada going to brazil 2014 than toronto winning the MLS right now...

[prizby]

picked neither because i rather canada past the group stages or TFC as CCL champions

had a chance to think about it somemore...i'd be elated if Toronto FC won, but the meaning of actually going to the world cup and the international stage it will put Canada on is HUGE and that alone will be just one massive celebration

[SoccMan]

I love the fact that we have a pro soccer team here in Toronto playing in a decent North American league and I hope TFC can win an MLS championship in the near future,however, Canada making the World Cup wouldl be huge, bigger than any MLS championship for TFC. The media would be all over it if Canada was to qualify for a World Cup, never mind that, if the Canadian team came within a game of making it to the World Cup that game clinching game would be big and the hype would be like nothing we have ever seen for soccer in this country.

[Cashcleaner]

Canada making it into the WC would do so much more for the sport in this country than TFC winning the MLS Cup. Both scenarios would be great, but I gotta take country over club here.

[BeerBaron95]

CLUB..... no need for explaining why.

[TOBOR !]

Canada qualifying for the World Cup is going to do much more for the sport in this country than anything TFC accomplishes (what Cash just said).

Kids will be watching it on CBC. Cars will have Canada flags flying. A generation will remember watching CANADA play at the world cup and will dream of playing there one day themselves.

TFC winning the Anschutz trophy with much of their season aired on GOL TV isn't going to do jack shit.

As an aside, to cheer for another country first, and then TFC over Canada is despicable.

[__wowza]

i picked the third option.
wait a minute.. this isn't the impact forum! WHERE AM I!?

[Oldtimer]

I'm going to differ here from a lot of you.

I agree that Canada qualifying and doing well would be best for Canadian soccer. However,
Canada merely qualifying and bombing out in the first round (like we did the last time we got in) would do nothing for the game over here.

TFC winning the MLS Cup would do more for Canadian soccer than Canada squeaking in to the WC with a poor WC showing once we get there.

[Whoop]

I'm going to differ here from a lot of you.

I agree that Canada qualifying and doing well would be best for Canadian soccer. However,
Canada merely qualifying and bombing out in the first round (like we did the last time we got in) would do nothing for the game over here.

TFC winning the MLS Cup would do more for Canadian soccer than Canada squeaking in to the WC with a poor WC showing once we get there.

I disagree there. Just making it to the WC for Canada would be a tremendous accomplishment.

TFC only has regional impact, not Canada-wide impact. TFC winning would help soccer in southern Ontario to a small extent but it wouldn't necessarily help Canadian soccer. That's like saying the Whitecaps or Impact winning the MLS Cup will push kids in Toronto to play soccer.

It's kind of the same as the Toronto Blue Jays. Yes, the Blue Jays winning the World Series gave a small bump to baseball in Canada but ultimately it was the success of Baseball Canada that begat the success Baseball Canada has had. Most of the best baseball players in Canada come from BC or Quebec not necessarily Ontario. Though with the demise of the Expos, baseball in Quebec has taken a big hit.

Most of the kids in BC have more of a connection to the Seattle Mariners than to the Blue Jays. But more importantly the success of guys like Larry Walker and Justin Moreau is what gives those guys encouragement not the success of the Blue Jays.

Just because Canada hasn't made it to the World Cup in 26 years, we shouldn't underestimate the impact of making the World Cup. It would be huge if Canada made it even if they got smoked once they got there. I mean it didn't hurt the women's game when they faltered, and faltered badly, in Germany.

[DangerRed]

This isn't about which would have a bigger impact, or how likely it is that one will happen over the other.

It's about where you live, what you're proud of, and who you care about. Do I care about a bunch of players, playing in leagues all over the world, getting together once in a while to play against (usually) superior sides, only because they happen to be Canadian citizens?

Don't give me this bullshit about them representing our country, because the successful EPLers on the Canada team are about as Canadian as guns, the Queen or apple pie.

Club over country, forever.

[DangerRed]

As an aside, to cheer for another country first, and then TFC over Canada is despicable.

Uh oh.

This last World Cup, I cheered England (which promptly proceeded to shit the bed) and then Ivory Coast (Didier Drogba) and the Black Stars (flair). I'm Polish by birth.

I'd definitely be despicable by your definition, except Canada's not made the WC in decades and watching our team dominate a bunch of poor CONCACAF countries in the qualifiers is about as exciting as drinking flat beer. And we all know what happens next.

[Whoop]

This isn't about which would have a bigger impact, or how likely it is that one will happen over the other.

It's about where you live, what you're proud of, and who you care about. Do I care about a bunch of players, playing in leagues all over the world, getting together once in a while to play against (usually) superior sides, only because they happen to be Canadian citizens?

Don't give me this bullshit about them representing our country, because the successful EPLers on the Canada team are about as Canadian as guns, the Queen or apple pie.

Club over country, forever.

You can make the same argument that a bunch of foreigners playing in Toronto are as Torontonian as a hole in a wall.


It's about where you live, what you're proud of, and who you care about.

While I was born and raised in Toronto and am a Torontonian, I'm also a Canadian. And while I would love to see TFC win the MLS Cup (moreso the CCL), I would also love to see Canada in the World Cup.

And as how the question is phrased, which one I would rather see more... Canada in the World Cup would be the answer for me.

It would be the same if you asked me about hockey. I'd rather see Canada win the gold medal at the Olympics 100 times out of 100 than the Leafs, or any Canadian/American team, win the Cup.*



*unless I'm working for that team

[tfcleeds]

The way this poll is worded is a little confusing. It depends on the time frame we are talking about. If we are talking 2014, then yes, I definitely would rather have Canada in the World Cup than see TFC as champions between now and then. However, if we are talking into perpetuity, I'd rather see TFC as champions.

[Oldtimer]

It would be the same if you asked me about hockey. I'd rather see Canada win the gold medal at the Olympics 100 times out of 100 than the Leafs, or any Canadian/American team, win the Cup.*


... but would you be happy if Canada merely participated in the Olympics, but didn't win anything? I wouldn't.

[London]

... but would you be happy if Canada merely participated in the Olympics, but didn't win anything? I wouldn't.


i feel the same

[Carts]

I'd be happy if there was a 'both' option...

I want them both to be successful...

[trane]

Country over club. Particullalry when it comes to the MLS. Love TFC do not give a shit about the MLS. Now TFC winning the CLUB WC or the CONCAF CL that would mean something to me.

[tfcleeds]

... but would you be happy if Canada merely participated in the Olympics, but didn't win anything? I wouldn't.

That's the thing. If we are talking 2014, or heck, even 2018 or even 2022, I'd rather see Canada in in the World Cup (if you had to choose - that's the point of the poll, not being able to choose both). However, what if Canada wasn't able to make it to the World Cup until say, 2034 or 2038? Just to have them there, and then shit the bed? Sorry, but I'd much rather see TFC win a championship between now and then.

[Whoop]

That's a good point but I've never experienced that.

Having said that Canada is a small country in terms of soccer, unlike hockey.

If you're looking at bigger impact, success at the international (making it to the World Cup consistently) is the only way the game will grow so that one day when Canada does make it to the World Cup they don't get stomped. Looked at the States.

Again, as the question was phrased, which would I rather see, I'd rather see would be Canada go to the World Cup.

I mean if I live for another 60 years, that's about 16 World Cups.

16 MLS seasons takes us only to 2028. Odds are TFC could win 3-4 titles by 2028. By 2028, that's only 4 World Cups.

[DangerRed]

You can make the same argument that a bunch of foreigners playing in Toronto are as Torontonian as a hole in a wall.



Not the same. TFC aren't playing to some sort of nationalistic pride - and I'd argue that the international nature of the squad reflects the city's demographics much more than a pretty strictly paper-based notion of citizenship that binds the CMNT.

And I'd also agree with the others. Having Canada just make the WC without winning anything doesn't turn my crank.

[trane]

16 MLS seasons takes us only to 2028. Odds are TFC could win 3-4 titles by 2028. By 2028, that's only 4 World Cups.


I think that at the present pace, we are on the pace to win exaclty 0 MLS cups by 2028.

[Whoop]

Not the same. TFC aren't playing to some sort of nationalistic pride - and I'd argue that the international nature of the squad reflects the city's demographics much more than a pretty strictly paper-based notion of citizenship that binds the CMNT.

And I'd also agree with the others. Having Canada just make the WC without winning anything doesn't turn my crank.

But isn't the team playing for some sort of regional pride?

[ryan]

TFC winning MLS isn't going to make waves outside of the GTA, people in Vancouver, Montreal, for the most part aren't going to give a shit and likely just make snide comments about it.

I'm not sure where it all started (I think it's political? probably because I now despise the west for helping usher in this god forsaken government I have to be subjected to), but it is what it is. Our major cities don't want the others to succeed in any way shape or form.


So if TFC succeeds, it doesn't really reach outside of the GTA.


If Canada succeeds, and we're talking about international soccer not midrate at best MLS, then the whole country will catch on and ride the hype train to Brazil.

I would imagine the viewing audience for Canada's RR 2014 matches would be at least 10x TFC (or any Canadian club) in the MLS Cup.

[LesH]

Not the same. TFC aren't playing to some sort of nationalistic pride - and I'd argue that the international nature of the squad reflects the city's demographics much more than a pretty strictly paper-based notion of citizenship that binds the CMNT.

And I'd also agree with the others. Having Canada just make the WC without winning anything doesn't turn my crank.

This.

I voted TFC.

WC in and WC out, almost every time 2-3 weaker teams qualify from countries who rarely qualify to WC-s... which teams are kind of exotic spots there... Just to have a "meh" performance (expected?) in the groups.

What does that bring in the eyes of the international football loving community about that country's football? Not much really.
How much will increase the popularity of the sport in Canada if the team will qualify for the WC and will fizzle out in the group stage? I'm afraid not much.

I would've voted Canada if the choice would've been "Canada gets out from the group stages at the next WC".

[EastYork]

World cup hands down

[Oldtimer]

I would've voted Canada if the choice would've been "Canada gets out from the group stages at the next WC".

That's where I stand.

[Ageroo]

WC :)

[DangerRed]

But isn't the team playing for some sort of regional pride?

Absolutely. And they're committed to their team much more than the CMNT. They practice together, day in, day out, and they play together week after week after week (except of course when they're cut, traded, sold :D ).

The point is that my connection to TFC for that reason will always be deeper than to that of the CMNT squad, which gets together from time to time while they're not working their day jobs in other leagues.

And lastly, as far as results go, I'd dare say that Canada will not win a World Cup in our lifetime. I'm all for encouraging the idea of giving it the good ol' college try, but at least TFC has a chance in hell of one day winning the MLS Cup (you can also look at the odds of Canada ever making the WC knockout rounds vs the odds of TFC making the playoffs if you like :D).

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you - enjoy whatever gets you excited. Just trying to tell you how I'm looking at the whole thing. At least we can agree we're both passionate about football!

[Whoop]

MLS Cup is nice, but like trane says, and I agree, the goal really should be the CCL.

Now TFC winning the CCL... that's huge.

MLS Cup... it's nice and all but what does it really amount to?

[ensco]

I'm going to differ here from a lot of you.

I agree that Canada qualifying and doing well would be best for Canadian soccer. However,
Canada merely qualifying and bombing out in the first round (like we did the last time we got in) would do nothing for the game over here.

TFC winning the MLS Cup would do more for Canadian soccer than Canada squeaking in to the WC with a poor WC showing once we get there.

Canada didn't "bomb out" in 1986. They didn't score but played tough in two of the three games. The high water mark was when they lost only 1-0 to France, on a late goal, and put a hell of a scare into the French (those of us old enough to remember Bruce Wilson hitting the post early in that game, raise your hand).

Fwiw....I would say that these are very different propositions. The odds against Canada qualifying for WC2014 are probably around 6:1. TFC is probably 50 to 1 against to win the MLS Cup.

[Whoop]

I remember that game.

But the general public just remembers the fact that Canada failed to score a goal.

[ensco]

^Does the general public remember anything about WC1986 at all?

For me, that Canada-France game was the greatest game in Canadian soccer history. That French team, with Platini, knocked the favoured Brazil team out two weeks later in the quarters

[tfcleeds]

^Indeed, we were in a very tough group that year. The Soviets were no slouches either.

No, we didn't score a goal, but overall, you'd have to say our results weren't that bad, all things considered.

[Whoop]

I also remember that match France-Brazil as it took place on a Sunday, Platini's birthday, and for his PK in the penalty kicks.

lnwwV0hlEng

He was Roberto Baggio, before Robert Baggio. I mean Baggio Platini'd his PK in 1994.

Luckily Luis Fernandez saved him.

[Pinkie]

^Does the general public remember anything about WC1986 at all?

For me, that Canada-France game was the greatest game in Canadian soccer history. That French team, with Platini, knocked the favoured Brazil team out two weeks later in the quarters

i was two years old in 1986 and obviously don't remember that at all. Canada making the world cup would literally be a highlight of my life and further push me to go to the wc.

[SilverSamurai]

Canada making the WC. My bags are packed the moment it happens.
+1.
Gives me an excuse to finally go to Brazil too!

Country over club.

TFC is local, CMNT (and CWNT) are not.

Besides if Canada got an easy group, theres a chance to make to the round of 16. Although with Canada's luck, they'd get a group of death with Brazil, Germany and Spain...

[Fort York Redcoat]

... but would you be happy if Canada merely participated in the Olympics, but didn't win anything? I wouldn't.

I'm surprised at the comparison. You're all entitled to your opinion but the Olympic Ice Hockey competition has , what, a tenth of the nations involved in the competition as the WC? I'd expect experienced supporters to take this into consideration when rating qualifying to the world cup.


This.

I voted TFC.

WC in and WC out, almost every time 2-3 weaker teams qualify from countries who rarely qualify to WC-s... which teams are kind of exotic spots there... Just to have a "meh" performance (expected?) in the groups.

What does that bring in the eyes of the international football loving community about that country's football? Not much really.
How much will increase the popularity of the sport in Canada if the team will qualify for the WC and will fizzle out in the group stage? I'm afraid not much.

I would've voted Canada if the choice would've been "Canada gets out from the group stages at the next WC".

Winning MLS cup will bring more NA media attention for NA eyeballs that don't watch the sport.

Qualifying for the World Cup may have less lines in media columns in local papers but it will add up across the land.

I realize how elitist this attitude may sound(read) but winning MLS cup will mean more to people who know less about the sport and are less likely to grow it.

[Whoop]

It's the whole regional vs. country debate when it comes to Canada.

TFC wins the MLS Cup, people in BC or Quebec won't care. Much less people from the Prairies or the Maritimes.

Canada makes the WC, people from across the country, including those whose feelings are hurt in Vancouver about the lack of WCQ matches there, from Halifax to Winnipeg to Calgary will be following.

The best coorelation is the women's team. Look at the excitement when the women do well. For the longest time one of the most watched events in Canadian sporting history outside of hockey or CFL, was the U19 final between Canada-US back in 2002.

That's women's soccer. Junior event.

Imagine the number if CMNT made it to the World Cup? Made into the 2nd round?

[Gazza]

We have passionate soccer fans in this country. I long for the day that fans put away their parent's country's jerseys and put on Canada red and be united. If just for 90 mins, three days out of the summer.

Until 2007, i didn't even know there was such a thing as the Concacaf Champion's League.

The greatest country in the world being involved in the biggest sporting event in the world means more, hands down.

[TOBOR !]

Uh oh.

This last World Cup, I cheered England (which promptly proceeded to shit the bed) and then Ivory Coast (Didier Drogba) and the Black Stars (flair). I'm Polish by birth.

I'd definitely be despicable by your definition, except Canada's not made the WC in decades and watching our team dominate a bunch of poor CONCACAF countries in the qualifiers is about as exciting as drinking flat beer. And we all know what happens next.

You've missed my point. Wull mentioned that he would answer the question differently if the country in question was Scotland, otherwise he puts TFC ahead of Canada.

So, it's country before club, but not if we're talking about Canada. I thought 'what the fuck is that ?'

Also, it hasn't been mentioned that TFC competes for the MLS Cup annually, and without having to navigate a series of qualifications for the privilege.

Furthermore, once a new season is underway we quickly forget who the past champions are and focus on the next one. In no time an MLS Cup winner is lost in the annals of time.

A qualification for a World Cup is an accomplishment in itself. National pride in outsider nations hit record peaks. Plus, each World Cup is four years apart. That's 4 years of glory, or pain... or yearning. There are moments within World Cups that live on forever, performed by footballing minnows. Upsets happen on the grandest stage of them all.

Just pick a World Cup year and see if there wasn't a major upset, or an inspirational moment from a rank outsider.

What would be so bad if Canada was one of these teams ? Even if they were to bow out after the group stage ?

FFS, an MLS Cup for a team with 5 years under it's belt is more preferable to a World Cup appearance for a nation ? For your nation ?

I don't think some of you have thought this through properly.

[Carefree]

I agree with those who say it's all about what you care about the most.

For five seasons I have tried to be a passionate TFC supporter but over that timespan the club has given a lot more disapointment than joy. Meanwhile I have been a proud Canadian my entire life (almost 40 years), as have my parents, grandparent, great-grand-parents, and so on. It's a no-brainer really.

In a sense I get where the die-hard proponents of club before country come from. It would be a lot different if my club had been around for a hundred years and I was a lifelong supporter who was continuously immersed in the club's culture, and if my country was a regular participant in the WC. That is not the case here, so I will pick Canada over TFC.

[Fort York Redcoat]

This isn't about which would have a bigger impact, or how likely it is that one will happen over the other.






And lastly, as far as results go, I'd dare say that Canada will not win a World Cup in our lifetime. I'm all for encouraging the idea of giving it the good ol' college try, but at least TFC has a chance in hell of one day winning the MLS Cup (you can also look at the odds of Canada ever making the WC knockout rounds vs the odds of TFC making the playoffs if you like :D).



These quotes don't match. It looks to be about how well the National team will do and how likely they are to win.

I'd hazard that you could apply your "how Canadian is the national team, really" with just as much validity to how Torontonian is the make-up of TFC.

The picture you paint makes it sound hard to support Canada. It is hard sometimes but I didn't get into this cause it was easy.

Let me restate that you are entitled to your opinion and I'll second you saying the most important thing is football first.

[TOBOR !]

I'm also miffed by the 'I support the team most likely to win' logic.

[trane]

I will say this, and I have said it before on this topic. This discussion is really a English thing.

I think in most of the world, there is no conflict between the two. It is an honour for player from your team to play on the national team, and when they are not selected people complain. Now there is a bit of a double standard on my part, because I am happy that Boateng did not represent Ghana in the African Cup, as Milan needs him in the CL and Serie A.

[TOBOR !]

I will say this, and I have said it before on this topic. This discussion is really a English thing.

Can you direct me to that ? I'd like to read it in order to get a better understanding of what you mean.

thanks.

[Whoop]

I think what trane is getting at is that if you polled most people the English are likely to go "club over country" while most other backgrounds would likely go "country over club".

I think it's more anecdotal.

[Whoop]

Google "club over country"

Guardian poll pops up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/poll/2011/oct/11/1

Thing is as international club football gets bigger, club teams are exerting more pressure on players to choose club over country. That's why FIFA has stepped in to protect their competitions.

I think the debate though is biggest in England moreso than other parts of the world, which is what trane is alluding to.

http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/football/854993-frank-lampard-england-players-dont-value-club-over-country

[TOBOR !]

^ thanks.

I wonder what the results would be if players were polled on whether they'd rather play for their club or country ?

[Waggy]

^ thanks.

I wonder what the results would be if players were polled on whether they'd rather play for their club or country ?

Depends on the club and depends on the country haha


Canada in the World Cup is basically a dream. The only reason TFC has yet to have MLS success is because our first management team was a nightmare. It's not close, definitely Canada over TFC for me. The only situation I wouldn't put country over club is the Leafs, and that's because Canada's got gold several times in the past 10 years. Otherwise give me Canada beating the US for gold in olympic mens basketball over a Raptors NBA title any day. If the World Baseball Classic was a real tournament I'd put it above the Jays too. But really, that tourny's a joke. I still love it though.

[Chris Wren]

I find many responses odd because the rational for what would be more desirable is based on how much exposure the team could get.

Where's the passion? I passionately want Canada to make the World Cup, not because people who don't care about soccer are suddenly going to be exposed to the team. I want Canada to make the World Cup because it's the best tournament on Earth.

[Brooker]

Why do I have to pick?

:o

[trane]

Google "club over country"

Guardian poll pops up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/poll/2011/oct/11/1

Thing is as international club football gets bigger, club teams are exerting more pressure on players to choose club over country. That's why FIFA has stepped in to protect their competitions.

I think the debate though is biggest in England moreso than other parts of the world, which is what trane is alluding to.

http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/football/854993-frank-lampard-england-players-dont-value-club-over-country


That is it. It has never been much of a debate in Italy, as they are not seen as cometeing interests. Playing and supporting ones country, in some ways is seen as an extension of playing and supporting ones club. You love Calcio therefore you support your local team, in that there is alot of civic pride involved, then because of the same love you support your country for national pride.

Too illustrate.

I am from Milano, so I support the Milano team, now in Milano there is two choices, Milan and Inter, due to the makeup of the Milan support, I support Milan. But Milano is in Italy, and plays in Serie A. So I support Italy, as it representes the entire nation, inclduing Milano. I am proud when players from Milan play for the national team. Becuse Milan plays in Serie A, I support Serie A teams competing outside of Serie A. Inter may be a rival in Sierie A and in the City. But when Inter is playing outside of the Italy, it represents the country and the city, so I like to see it do well. It is not the same feeling like I have for Milan, not close, but still their is Civic pride in the fact that between the two Milano teams we have 10 CL trophies, and so on.

Clearly, this is a very different way of looking at it then people do in England.

[tfcleeds]

^It is different in England, partly because for many people, cheering for the national team means having to cheer for players from other clubs that they are used to hating week in, week out. This is only part of the reason I'm sure, but in some cases, and depending on the club, it's a huge reason why support for the national side isn't as fervent. Club over country, definitely more so in this instance.

[Whoop]

Yet how does Scotland do it?

[tfcleeds]

^Interesting point. However I think in that instance, the sporting arena is traditionally one of the few places where the Scots are really able to display their national pride, so that would trump any divisions that are caused by religion, clubs, etc. You only need to see all the "Remember Bannockburn" banners that come out when Scotland play England to see that point driven home.

[Whoop]

I also wonder how much international success plays into the picture?

[Red4ever]

TFC didn't storm the beaches at Normandy, liberate Holland, establish meaningful peacekeeping in regions that need it and they aren't looked up to all around the world.

When I sing the national anthem at a Canada game it illustrates everything I love about my country, one am I lucky enough to call my own. I'm not sure I've ever loved a girl that much, let alone a soccer team.

I will also say, that even though a shit ton of my really good friends answer club to this, it honest to god makes me think less of them as a person. (Honestly)

It's country, it's always country, it's not even fit for a debate.

[Brooker]

Even in the signature, too. Dude isn't fuckin' around!

I admire the enthusiasm.

[TOBOR !]

^It is different in England, partly because for many people, cheering for the national team means having to cheer for players from other clubs that they are used to hating week in, week out. This is only part of the reason I'm sure, but in some cases, and depending on the club, it's a huge reason why support for the national side isn't as fervent. Club over country, definitely more so in this instance.

I don`t get that at all... not cheering for your country because it means cheering for players on rival club teams ? That's mad.

I'm English, but subscribe to Trane's philosophy of national pride.

When did this happen (in England) ? Surely it wasn't always thus.

[Dub Narcotic]

Man, I still would like to see Canada do well, but our games are infrequent, boring, not at a particularly high level, and all international football in general is poor compared to the best club football. I was also really turned off by the recent Sydney Leroux harassment. It is a double standard, but a bunch of middle-aged guys (including a particular obese and creepy well-known Vancouver soccer blogger) attacking a young woman and basically amateur athlete on twitter and in person just came off as jingoistic and pathetic and made me even less interested in the national scene.

I am far more emotionally invested in what happens to the club teams I support, due to how much time I spend following them and watching their games, than I am the national team. For me, it is no contest, and it is club every time and in every sport.

[Cashcleaner]

MLS Cup is nice, but like trane says, and I agree, the goal really should be the CCL.

Now TFC winning the CCL... that's huge.

MLS Cup... it's nice and all but what does it really amount to?

Which, funnily enough, sorta takes us back to the argument of Canadian Championship over MLS Cup.

BTW, I'm still of the opinion that NCC trumps MLS Cup because winning the NCC advances us into the CCL whereas winning the MLS Cup gives us a shiny trophy and that's it.

[Oldtimer]

TFC didn't storm the beaches at Normandy, liberate Holland, establish meaningful peacekeeping in regions that need it and they aren't looked up to all around the world.



Yes, if it's just club or country, country should always win (and it does for me).

But that isn't the question in this poll (despite the misleading thread title). The question is carefully worded in an extreme manner, should we take something minor for our country over something major for a club team?

The national team is only a small part of football in Canada, the various clubs both professional and amateur in this country are a bigger part of what promote this great sport in Canada.

It could be argued that even if Canada fails to merely get into the next World Cup (and fail in the first round like last time) but TFC wins the MLS Cup, TFC's victory is what would best promote the game and propel Canada into becoming more of a proper footballing nation, and ultimately leading to our national team being in every World Cup. Canada loves being a winner, and for example winning in hockey is one of the reasons why hockey is so popular here when most of the world couldn't care less. Winning in football (even the MLS Cup) will make Canadians take notice and give the game a massive bump in popularity. You see it isn't so simple. You can love our country first, but still think that what's best for the country is for TFC (or the Whitecaps or the Impact) to succeed.

To put it in military terms, how much of a success would it have been in WWII for Canada to successfully launch a new tank, but leave Hitler in power?

[Wull]

Yet how does Scotland do it?

To an extent, they don't. You have a lot of old firm fans (not all or even half but a strong minority) who support the republic of ireland or england and don't like or care about the national team. The rest of us in our towns and cities don't feel the disconnect that most of england does with London and the south east as when thatcher was in power that area was more prosperous in general and tended to keep her in power leaving the Liverpools, Leeds and Manchesters feeling a disconnect with their southern countrymen due to policy and way of life

[Whoop]

I still don't see a TFC victory in the MLS Cup popularizing the game across Canada.

Did the Metros-Croatia victory in the Soccer Bowl or the Whitecaps victory in the Soccer Bowl popularize the game across Canada or did Canada's participation in the 1986 World Cup do more?

I mean if TFC (or Montreal or Vancouver) wins the MLS Cup is the mainstream media in Calgary going to talk about it? I doubt it. When Montreal went on its CCL run a couple of years ago how much play did that get? Some, but not a lot. I don't think a kid in Hamilton decided to start playing because the Impact went to the CCL QF.

Now Canada gets to the World Cup... the mainstream media across the country will talk about it. It could possibly be a lead story on the National news. I'm sure the TV numbers from just one of Canada's games at the World Cup would eclipse the TV numbers for the MLS Cup if a Canadian team was participating.

That's the power of nationalism/patriotism whatever you want to call it.

Sure you want the Canadian teams to be successful but Canadian teams have been successful before and really it didn't help. Sustained international success, which would lead to better friendlies, which would lead to more publicity around the national team (again, look at the women's team)... that's what's going to make the sport even more popular.

What the Canadian clubs do though is give local kids hope that if they want to be a professional soccer player, there's an option available. What Canada qualifying for the World Cup is turn the kid from the middle of Canada that didn't even like soccer before into a soccer fan.

[CSO_BBTB]

Suspect the World Cup would be a case of "back before the postcards" so opted for the MLS win. Throw in a couple of sudden death rounds and maybe I'd swing over to the other option.

[tfcleeds]

I don`t get that at all... not cheering for your country because it means cheering for players on rival club teams ? That's mad.

I'm English, but subscribe to Trane's philosophy of national pride.

When did this happen (in England) ? Surely it wasn't always thus.

I didn't mean across the board, but for a few people, it's like that. And hate is a pretty strong word, I should have said indifference.

I think Wull's post above encapsulates more of what I was trying to say. In that as it pertains to England, at least as far as I've noticed, regional pride always seems to trump national pride (generally) in the end. Sure, you get your England rah-rah types, but I've never seen a united front for English support quite the same as I've seen it for other nations.

In Canada, during World Jrs. or Olympic hockey, it doesn't matter whether a player (or a supporter) is from St. John's or Winkler, Manitoba - everyone is *Canadian*, and it doesn't matter where you're from. Everyone gets behind Canada. Regional differences fade away.

As far as the English national team goes, I've just never noticed that exists to the same extent. And Wull's reference to the north/south divide I believe is spot on. I think in some areas, you just find a lot more indifference.

[Oldtimer]

I still don't see a TFC victory in the MLS Cup popularizing the game across Canada.

Did the Metros-Croatia victory in the Soccer Bowl or the Whitecaps victory in the Soccer Bowl popularize the game across Canada or did Canada's participation in the 1986 World Cup do more?

I mean if TFC (or Montreal or Vancouver) wins the MLS Cup is the mainstream media in Calgary going to talk about it? I doubt it. When Montreal went on its CCL run a couple of years ago how much play did that get? Some, but not a lot. I don't think a kid in Hamilton decided to start playing because the Impact went to the CCL QF.

Now Canada gets to the World Cup... the mainstream media across the country will talk about it. It could possibly be a lead story on the National news. I'm sure the TV numbers from just one of Canada's games at the World Cup would eclipse the TV numbers for the MLS Cup if a Canadian team was participating.

That's the power of nationalism/patriotism whatever you want to call it.

Sure you want the Canadian teams to be successful but Canadian teams have been successful before and really it didn't help. Sustained international success, which would lead to better friendlies, which would lead to more publicity around the national team (again, look at the women's team)... that's what's going to make the sport even more popular.

What the Canadian clubs do though is give local kids hope that if they want to be a professional soccer player, there's an option available. What Canada qualifying for the World Cup is turn the kid from the middle of Canada that didn't even like soccer before into a soccer fan.

Actually, the NASL did do a lot to popularize the game in Canada. For example, look at the founding dates of most of the non-ethnic soccer clubs in the GTA. Most of them date from the mid-70s. There is a reason for that.

I do remember Canada getting into the World Cup and it did nothing for the game (BTW, the only reason Canada was able to make it in 1986 was because of a large number of players whose skills had been developed in the NASL, even though the NASL was gone by then). When Canada quickly exited from the World Cup, people said "Canada sucks at soccer" and went back to cheering for their grandfather's homeland's team. Just getting in did nothing.

Think about the state of soccer in Canada in 2005. The CMNT garnered very little interest. The CSA was barely on the map. There were no "soccer shows" on the radio. There were some foreign games on the TV, but nothing about the game in Canada.

The current higher profile of the game and some very promising young players starting to play for Canada had nothing to do with CMNT success: there was none. It had nothing to do with CSA marketing genius: the CSA was disfunctional. It had nothing to do with the provincial associations and their teams. It had nothing to do with Canadians playing in the Norwegian second division. It all came down to one thing: the founding of Toronto FC in 2006.

From that one event came all of the bloggers, columnists and shows. From that came a Canada home crowd in Toronto (TFC did things right and included a Canada game in the first year SSH package, for many that was their first ever Canada game).

Also from that has come an academy that is churning out players for the CMNT, so that we can dream in the future of a CMNT that makes every World Cup. TFC is doing things right in that regard too, and is relentlessly focused on developing Canadian players. There will be a lot more Canadians playing at a high level because of TFC.

So for me it's not a case of choosing my club over country. I love my country. It's a case of helping my country through my club.

Now, if the CMNT could make it beyond the first round, then yes, I'd agree that it would now be at a point where national team success will further boost the game.

[Whoop]

Again, it's more of a regional thing. TFC woke up the GTA in regards to soccer, in terms of an area that had been dormant for a long, long time in regards to the CMNT and the professional game in NA.

Yes, that in turn helps the country but it's just made soccer more mainstream so it's even more okay to cheer for your homeland club team more so than TFC.

So question, if Vancouver wins the MLS Cup this year how does that help soccer in Ontario or Quebec?

[Whoop]

Ultimately the question comes down to what do you feel more like a Torontonian or a Canadian? Do you feel more of a connection to Toronto or is Canada an ancillary thought? It's like the England example people are referring to. Does the size of the country play a role in it?

ed: This is something that is occurring in politics in Canada right now and is affecting the country so it's not just soccer related.

[Oldtimer]

So question, if Vancouver wins the MLS Cup this year how does that help soccer in Ontario or Quebec?

Most might not care as much as a fan, but if I was a young soccer player playing at an advanced level I sure would be interested in pursuing a career with Vancouver Whitecaps FC.

Now I'm a Canada supporter first, so I am not ashamed to say that, as much as I dislike anything to do with the Impact, I cheered them on in the CCL as Canada's representatives.
I do the same for hockey, I would rather Winnipeg wins the Stanley Cup than an American team.

Now "club or country" usually comes up not for fans but for players. As Trane noted, it seems to be a uniquely English thing to loath your national team. In most countries it's a huge honour. (Canada's problem is something different: players who view their nationality as a mere matter of convenience, who will play for any other country if it furthers their career).

[Whoop]

Fair enough.

I just don't think Vancouver winning the MLS Cup is going to generate a lot of play in New Brunswick.

[TOBOR !]

But that isn't the question in this poll (despite the misleading thread title). The question is carefully worded in an extreme manner, should we take something minor for our country over something major for a club team?

I must argue that qualifying for the World Cup is hardly a minor accomplishment. To make it to the tournament stage of the grandest competition is terrific. Especially when you factor in the number of nations competing to get in from the outset.

Add to that just about the entire world will be watching and reading about it. It's great exposure for the country, the team and the players.

There'll even be a Canada page in the Panini sticker set.

Also, trying to get back since 1986 has proven to be tricky. If we go to Brazil it'll have been 28 years between appearances. Let's put a proper value on this.

[Whoop]

I point to the US.

While the MLS has helped grow the game in the US, what generates more interest in the game when Houston wins the MLS Cup or when the US makes it to the World Cup (remember the excitement when they drew with England 2 years ago) or when the US women make the final? There was no MLS when the US qualified in 1990 and hosted in 1994. I'd argue that the US run in the 2002 World Cup did more for the MLS than DC United's success in the MLS Cup.

Chicken or egg... but I'd argue in emerging countries (i.e. US, Japan, Australia, etc.) international success fuels the domestic game.

[tfcleeds]

To reiterate my earlier post near the beginning of this thread, I don't care if Canada were to do nothing in 2014, or even 2018 (of course, scoring a few goals, or maybe getting a couple of points would be nice). Just to BE there after 28 years, to be on the world stage (and let's face it, the World Cup is way bigger business now than it was in 1986) after so long - I would value that more over TFC winning a MLS Cup between now and then.

But the longer it takes for Canada to make a World Cup appearance, the more the trade off in putting up with a lack of TFC success. So at a certain point, the latter would become more important.

[Whoop]

Though on the club side, I will admit, you need the stability of the domestic clubs in order to help the CMNT.

But to touch on what tfcleeds says



But the longer it takes for Canada to make a World Cup appearance, the more the trade off in putting up with a lack of TFC success. So at a certain point, the latter would become more important.

This is true. Though the hope is that it doesn't take TFC that long to achieve MLS success.

[tfcleeds]

^Again, bearing in mind the issue brought forth by the poll. Which would you rather (assuming you can only choose one). I believe there can be both, and soon at that.

[TOBOR !]

of the 40 people (so far) who have selected club over country, I wonder if the options were changed to either a TFC championship or a WC appearance or success of some other country, which would they choose ?

[Oldtimer]

^ But the US has had some success once they are in the WC. I'd agree that Canadian success in the World Cup would be the biggest boost, but that has never come yet.

As I've said, if just getting into the WC is a big boost (which is what the poll is asking about), then why didn't 1986 do it? Why did it take TFC?

[Whoop]

Because there was nothing domestically to capitalize on. When the World Cup was over in '86 there was no NASL to go back to.

Canada failing to get to the 1994 WC also hurt.

I agree it goes hand in hand.

My only point is that Canada in the World Cup > than a Canadian team winning the MLS Cup.

Now if you're talking about winning the CCL I would say you have a case there.

[Whoop]

For me the order would be...

1) Canada success in the World Cup
2) TFC winning the CCL
3) Canada making the World Cup
4) TFC winning the MLS Cup
5) TFC making the playoffs

And if by some fluke in my lifetime it happens...

Canada winning the World Cup > TFC winning the World Club Cup

[TOBOR !]

If the US had hosted the 1986 WC it would have no doubt saved the NASL, and then you would've seen the impact you're looking for.

We'd be in the same boat (I think) whether Canada qualified for 1994 or not. There was still no domestic league. Maybe some thought would've been given to awarding a founding MLS franchise to a Canadian city. Perhaps Toronto.

[tfcleeds]

^Canada winning the World Cup? If I thought that were even remotely possible, I'd take that over seeing ANY of my clubs in any sport winning another championship again.

[Chris Wren]

^ But the US has had some success once they are in the WC. I'd agree that Canadian success in the World Cup would be the biggest boost, but that has never come yet.

As I've said, if just getting into the WC is a big boost (which is what the poll is asking about), then why didn't 1986 do it? Why did it take TFC?

I disagree with your opinion of what this poll is about. The poll is not about exposure or marketing of the game and what the consequences on the youth will be. The question asked is what would you rather see.

This is why I made the point earlier about it being about passion. Forget about the bottom line for a second. What do you want to see? What would make you, just you as a soccer fan, feel more amazing inside? TFC winning the MLS Cup or Canada Qualifying for the World Cup?

Two great options, I went for the World Cup because I've been waiting for Canada to get back since 86' and it only happens every 4 years.

On another note, I don't understand the English sentiment. I find their supporters to be the loudest singers and usually they are one of the largest contingents at any international game anywhere in the world.

[Oldtimer]

^Canada winning the World Cup? If I thought that were even remotely possible, I'd take that over seeing ANY of my clubs in any sport winning another championship again.

+1


If the US had hosted the 1986 WC it would have no doubt saved the NASL, and then you would've seen the impact you're looking for.

We'd be in the same boat (I think) whether Canada qualified for 1994 or not. There was still no domestic league. Maybe some thought would've been given to awarding a founding MLS franchise to a Canadian city. Perhaps Toronto.

If you read the history of MLS, you would see that any Canadian franchise in early MLS would have been impossible. In fact, if MLS hadn't had had it's earlier problems, it would be like the NFL, with no Canadian team in it at all. Desperation drove the league to ML$E's chequebook, and TFC's great off-the-field success drove MLS to accept Vancouver and Montreal.

[tfcleeds]

I'm not even sure that greater success in 1986 for the CMNT would have been the springboard for greater growth and popularity of the sport in this country. Never mind Canadian football, the state of football in general in this country was a lot different back then than it is now.

For one thing, it was still largely the preserve of ex-pats watching their favourite teams in social clubs or pubs via satellite TV. There was no TSN/Sportsnet showing 3 English league games a week. There was no Setanta. There was no GOLTV. There was no internet (at least for the general populace) providing a wealth of information on just about every league or club imaginable. Heck, back then, you were lucky if you found out the result of your team on the same day it happened.

It's only through the proliferation of football on TV since the early 1990s that has seen the interest in football in this country in general increase. Of course, growth in the Canadian game is what is happening/yet to happen, and is what most of us on here have a vested interest in.

[KRO]

I've lived in 5 different countries and don't consider myself nationalistic. Having said that, I've lived in Canada for 24 years, became a citizen as soon as I could and will probably never leave.

For me, international football is a sideshow. I went to the WCQ games last year and will go again this year, wearing my now out of date V pattern shirt but in general I think the quality of international football is inferior to club football.

I'm a club football supporter and voted for TFC as MLS Champions. Face it guys, Canada does not have a good team at the moment and I think it will all end in tears. I guess I'm in the minority.

[Whoop]

I'm not even sure that greater success in 1986 for the CMNT would have been the springboard for greater growth and popularity of the sport in this country. Never mind Canadian football, the state of football in general in this country was a lot different back then than it is now.

For one thing, it was still largely the preserve of ex-pats watching their favourite teams in social clubs or pubs via satellite TV. There was no TSN/Sportsnet showing 3 English league games a week. There was no Setanta. There was no GOLTV. There was no internet (at least for the general populace) providing a wealth of information on just about every league or club imaginable. Heck, back then, you were lucky if you found out the result of your team on the same day it happened.

It's only through the proliferation of football on TV since the early 1990s that has seen the interest in football in this country in general increase. Of course, growth in the Canadian game is what is happening/yet to happen, and is what most of us on here have a vested interest in.

Exactly.

I don't think it was TFC per se that made the soccer scene in Toronto. It was already, growing from more exposure to the game on TV and online.

People who don't even care about TFC or the MLS would be attracted to Canada making the World Cup. Remember there are people out there who hate TFC (or MLS in general). Or worse yet, people who don't even care the MLS or will ever care about the MLS. People who fans of other MLS teams or fans of their European/SA club teams.

But Canada going to the World Cup would encapsulate all those people. Fans of Barcelona, Liverpool, United, City, Marseille, Bayern, AC Milan, etc.

[Wull]

of the 40 people (so far) who have selected club over country, I wonder if the options were changed to either a TFC championship or a WC appearance or success of some other country, which would they choose ?

I'd pick Scotland if that was the question.

[Belfast_Boy]

of the 40 people (so far) who have selected club over country, I wonder if the options were changed to either a TFC championship or a WC appearance or success of some other country, which would they choose ?


that does make it make things more interesting.
let me start by saying that LFC are my first team and I'd want them to win above any national success. whether it's Ireland or Canada.
throw TFC into the picture I'm really torn I did pick TFC as my shoice when it comes to Canada. I haven't really got behind the team yet.

[Canary10]

Ha! Club or country? This is the exact question Harry Redknapp is asking himself right now!

[ensco]

I'm not even sure that greater success in 1986 for the CMNT would have been the springboard for greater growth and popularity of the sport in this country. Never mind Canadian football, the state of football in general in this country was a lot different back then than it is now.

For one thing, it was still largely the preserve of ex-pats watching their favourite teams in social clubs or pubs via satellite TV. There was no TSN/Sportsnet showing 3 English league games a week. There was no Setanta. There was no GOLTV. There was no internet (at least for the general populace) providing a wealth of information on just about every league or club imaginable. Heck, back then, you were lucky if you found out the result of your team on the same day it happened.

It's only through the proliferation of football on TV since the early 1990s that has seen the interest in football in this country in general increase. Of course, growth in the Canadian game is what is happening/yet to happen, and is what most of us on here have a vested interest in.

True. It was awful in those days. Even worse in the US. I was living in the US in 1986 and the only place you could watch those WC games was on Univision, and even then only at 11pm.

They had ads as a picture within a picture! and ran the same stupid "Budweiser es para usted!" ad 5 times a half.

[Whoop]

LOL

They used to do that on TSN too.

TV people figured that it was a death knell to show 50 minutes of straight action without a commercial.

[TOBOR !]

If you read the history of MLS, you would see that any Canadian franchise in early MLS would have been impossible. In fact, if MLS hadn't had had it's earlier problems, it would be like the NFL, with no Canadian team in it at all. Desperation drove the league to ML$E's chequebook, and TFC's great off-the-field success drove MLS to accept Vancouver and Montreal.

(that's a bit condescending)

I haven't read it - it's on my list of things to do.

Does it address what might have happened if Canada had qualified for the 1994 World Cup ?

[Pinkie]

For me the order would be...

1) Canada success in the World Cup
2) TFC winning the CCL
3) Canada making the World Cup
4) TFC winning the MLS Cup
5) TFC making the playoffs

And if by some fluke in my lifetime it happens...

Canada winning the World Cup > TFC winning the World Club Cup


i second that order.

[ensco]

Canada winning the World Cup

Hey, it's better than I thought!

Odds are only 250,000 to 1.

https://sportsbook.gamingsystem.net/sportsbook4/www.superbook.com/getodds.xgi?categoryId=553

[Oldtimer]

(that's a bit condescending)



Sorry, didn't mean it as a put down. I'm just saying that it's really worthwhile to look at a book on MLS history. It's really interesting (especially when you get into what alternate proposals there were to MLS).

The book I read mostly ignored Canada.

[Greatest Ripoff]

For me, international football is a sideshow. I went to the WCQ games last year and will go again this year, wearing my now out of date V pattern shirt but in general I think the quality of international football is inferior to club football.


Generally this is true, but TFC are far worse as a football team than the canadian national team.

[SilverSamurai]

I've lived in 5 different countries and don't consider myself nationalistic. Having said that, I've lived in Canada for 24 years, became a citizen as soon as I could and will probably never leave.

For me, international football is a sideshow. I went to the WCQ games last year and will go again this year, wearing my now out of date V pattern shirt but in general I think the quality of international football is inferior to club football.

I'm a club football supporter and voted for TFC as MLS Champions. Face it guys, Canada does not have a good team at the moment and I think it will all end in tears. I guess I'm in the minority.
But there's always hope.
Does that stop a lot of these minnow teams from hoping?

Ex. does Mexico think they'll actually win it?
What about Scotland, N. Ireland or Ireland? Egpyt? N. Korea?

Actually the CMNT in a friendly vs. either Irelands or Scotland could be entertaining...
But I'd rather a friendly like that for the next round as a prep for the CONCACAF finals...

In any case we need more friendlies...

[TOBOR !]

Here's what they should do - treat national squads like club teams.

If you're good enough to play for England, then you are selected and you get paid to play for England. That is your team.

If you get dropped from England you can be selected by a club team and go play for them, but you don't play for both.

To keep all these national sides busy, there are regional leagues that teams compete to be the champions of. The winners of each league compete in a end-of-season tournament to crown a champion.

No need for Euros, no need for a World Cup. This is it. Every single year.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I went to the WCQ games last year and will go again this year, wearing my now out of date V pattern shirt but in general I think the quality of international football is inferior to club football.


Sidenote: The new centenary jerseys are supposed to be a year long celebration and not intended as a replacement. They will wear them this year and then will consider whether to adopt it and continue using it (most likely). What is for sure is the V is supposed to be available as the present jersey AS WELL.

so in summary KRO? You are NOT out of date!!:)

[TOBOR !]

... or use the Euros (et al) as qualifiers for the next WC. ie - top 8 teams qualify for the next World Cup. Do away with a lot of international dates.

[trane]

I've lived in 5 different countries and don't consider myself nationalistic. Having said that, I've lived in Canada for 24 years, became a citizen as soon as I could and will probably never leave.

For me, international football is a sideshow. I went to the WCQ games last year and will go again this year, wearing my now out of date V pattern shirt but in general I think the quality of international football is inferior to club football.

I'm a club football supporter and voted for TFC as MLS Champions. Face it guys, Canada does not have a good team at the moment and I think it will all end in tears. I guess I'm in the minority.


That is something that is often said, but honestly, I think that if you look at the countries that are perennial competitors in International football, such as Holland, Spain, Italy, Germany, Brazil, and Argentina, those teams when put together would challenge any Club.