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View Full Version : TFC Academy Stars Plucked by QPR



Keegan
01-12-2012, 05:54 PM
Voyageurs are reporting that QPR have signed Dylan Carreiro and Michael Petrasso...

Huge blow to TFC academy if true, Petrasso is class

Whoop
01-12-2012, 05:58 PM
Hmmm.... I wonder if Danny Dichio, being a big QPR guy, had anything to do with it?

Dv23
01-12-2012, 06:00 PM
This calls for a riot.

Dkolish3
01-12-2012, 06:02 PM
Does TFC receive anything by this move.
Or is it just two players gone for nothing

Keegan
01-12-2012, 06:02 PM
Hmmm.... I wonder if Danny Dichio, being a big QPR guy, had anything to do with it?

Nope, this has Marc Bircham all over it. He coached both players last month in Costa Rica for Canada U18s (U16s) as they romped over the Ticos, was really impressed by the whole team. He's QPR's U18 assistant coach.

MartinUtd
01-12-2012, 06:05 PM
Wow.. Academy products are being poached? Do you have a link?

denime
01-12-2012, 06:05 PM
We have to expect to happen more often in the future unless TFC makes a proper contracts with the kids instead of those letters.

Considering that both of them are U18 and Canadian citizens for them to move there parents have to go with them,so I would like to see the link that confirms this bad news.

QPR still has to pay TFC certain amount of $$$,not big $$$ though.

brad
01-12-2012, 06:07 PM
QPR still has to pay TFC certain amount of $$$,not big $$$ though.

I assume this is pretty irrelevant to us though. I'm guessing that money is just money into TFC's coffers, and not money that can get converted into allocation.

Whoop
01-12-2012, 06:14 PM
Nope, this has Marc Bircham all over it. He coached both players last month in Costa Rica for Canada U18s (U16s) as they romped over the Ticos, was really impressed by the whole team. He's QPR's U18 assistant coach.

My bad.

Keegan
01-12-2012, 06:21 PM
It's in a thread on the Voyageurs page but the info comes straight from Dylan Carreiro's twitter talking to a Canadian teammate

glaze
01-12-2012, 09:13 PM
I think that's great news. Whether we're compensated or not, it shows that the academy is doing well. If these guys have a shot at one day playing EPL, then we should all be applauding the move. While TFC may not gain from their success, it could attract more top players to the academy as a result. And the national program can only get better with more kids receiving elite level development.

Soccerpro
01-12-2012, 10:35 PM
I think that's great news. Whether we're compensated or not, it shows that the academy is doing well. If these guys have a shot at one day playing EPL, then we should all be applauding the move. While TFC may not gain from their success, it could attract more top players to the academy as a result. And the national program can only get better with more kids receiving elite level development.

+1.....
Lots of narrow minded people posting in this thread.

gcolacci
01-12-2012, 10:57 PM
I know Petrasso very well, played with my little brother for the Woodbridge soccer Club. Great player, was a real talent.

Will do very well.

ag futbol
01-12-2012, 11:09 PM
Real shame that we lost Petrasso, don't know too much about the other kid.

Ultimately, it is great that these guys are quality enough to garner contracts overseas, but its a shame that many of the players coming through aren't making onto our roster.

Aleman, Alderson, Teibert, these two, and a few more that I'm missing.


Are these fully pro contracts or are these kids still doing residency?

prizby
01-12-2012, 11:24 PM
How is this possible?

When the Keven Aleman thing happened, it was because he wouldn't committ his future with the academy and sign with the academy. That is why he was dropped from Toronto FC Academy. Wouldn't this have meant that Carreiro and Petrasso would have been contract bound with TFC Academy?

Damien
01-12-2012, 11:30 PM
Think these guys will get the development and playing time they deserve at QPR? As much as at TFC Academy? I'm asking honestly...

ag futbol
01-12-2012, 11:35 PM
How is this possible?

When the Keven Aleman thing happened, it was because he wouldn't committ his future with the academy and sign with the academy. That is why he was dropped from Toronto FC Academy. Wouldn't this have meant that Carreiro and Petrasso would have been contract bound with TFC Academy?
I'm just speculating here, but there is the potential that the contracts are not legally enforceable.

denime
01-13-2012, 06:44 AM
I'm just speculating here, but there is the potential that the contracts are not legally enforceable.

This is true.

J .
01-13-2012, 06:59 AM
Great news for both of those kids and for Canada to get them into EPL clubs (even if its temp they are getting better as as club on a trend).

Petrasso is looking like he can be a legit player in years and is still really young.

It would be good if TFC could get a little cash in exchange for the kids but this is the beginning of what I hope will be more kids going to develop in Canada and worldwide. Now TFC can bring in two more kids and start developing them.

Fort York Redcoat
01-13-2012, 07:39 AM
Great news for both of those kids and for Canada to get them into EPL clubs (even if its temp they are getting better as as club on a trend).

It would be good if TFC could get a little cash in exchange for the kids but this is the beginning of what I hope will be more kids going to develop in Canada and worldwide. Now TFC can bring in two more kids and start developing them.

This is a fair trade with the stature of an EPL team. Letting these kids go won't mean we'll be selling them to change our senior club squad right away.

Waggy
01-13-2012, 08:04 AM
How is this possible?

When the Keven Aleman thing happened, it was because he wouldn't committ his future with the academy and sign with the academy. That is why he was dropped from Toronto FC Academy. Wouldn't this have meant that Carreiro and Petrasso would have been contract bound with TFC Academy?

That just means QPR will have to pay for them. Dunno where that money goes (to MLSE, to the academy, allocation?) but whatever. I'm waiting to judge this until something official is said. Too many questions. Which team are they going to in QPC? What, if anything did we get back? Is this ACTUALLY happening or just a rumor or a thing that might happen? Guess we'll find out soon enough.

prizby
01-13-2012, 08:18 AM
That just means QPR will have to pay for them. Dunno where that money goes (to MLSE, to the academy, allocation?) but whatever. I'm waiting to judge this until something official is said. Too many questions. Which team are they going to in QPC? What, if anything did we get back? Is this ACTUALLY happening or just a rumor or a thing that might happen? Guess we'll find out soon enough.

im just trying to understand if you can be poached like this, then why didn't aleman just sign and wait to get poached

Suds
01-13-2012, 08:26 AM
I have no idea how kids in the academy are handled with respect to leaving and going to another clubs academy. But I think we will see more of this as the academy program grows. The goal of the academy is to provide the best environment for player development. Some of those kids will make their way to TFC and some very good ones will advance to bigger clubs that will provide them better opportunities.

It will always suck to see talented kids leave the TFC Academy. On the positive side, the more that leave for bigger clubs means the academy is doing its job. That's good for Canadian soccer. Hopefully TFC can benefit financially from it as well. That is important for future investment in the academy.

prizby
01-13-2012, 08:45 AM
I have no idea how kids in the academy are handled with respect to leaving and going to another clubs academy. But I think we will see more of this as the academy program grows. The goal of the academy is to provide the best environment for player development. Some of those kids will make their way to TFC and some very good ones will advance to bigger clubs that will provide them better opportunities.

It will always suck to see talented kids leave the TFC Academy. On the positive side, the more that leave for bigger clubs means the academy is doing its job. That's good for Canadian soccer. Hopefully TFC can benefit financially from it as well. That is important for future investment in the academy.

I think TFC should do what Oldham did (with Micah Richards). They don't need the couple thousand they will get...but take a 20% cut in his next transfer fee $$$ (should either kid make an impact and grab the attention of a bigger club)

ensco
01-13-2012, 08:55 AM
Regardless of the law, I am not in favour of any system that "commits" a kid to TFC or anyone else below the age of 18.

I also have to question in general the wisdom of parents who send their high school age kids far from home without proper support. Not saying it happened in this case, but it happens a lot. Canadian junior hockey has the same problem.

Super
01-13-2012, 09:33 AM
We better see compensation. Otherwise what's the point of an academy.

Yohan
01-13-2012, 09:36 AM
We better see compensation. Otherwise what's the point of an academy.
agreed. or else what's the point of developing players for others for free?

[NBF]
01-13-2012, 09:55 AM
I have a question, if TFC receives some sort of monetary compensation or some sort of performance or appearance bonus or percentage off his next transfer, whatever happens, does MLS still get the 25% off all transfers?

As far as the MLS Academies, are kids that sign with the academies also contracted to MLS or with the individual clubs?

__wowza
01-13-2012, 10:48 AM
I think that's great news. Whether we're compensated or not, it shows that the academy is doing well. If these guys have a shot at one day playing EPL, then we should all be applauding the move. While TFC may not gain from their success, it could attract more top players to the academy as a result. And the national program can only get better with more kids receiving elite level development.

i'm not calling you naive, i'm calling this thought naive.
YES this does signal TFC is scouting and training good talent which does in turn make us look better, but we're training it for OUR team, not anyone elses. we're paying for our scouts, trainers, and a new facility only to have someone poach our talent by saying "you can play for a bigger club".

when you say "it may attract more top players as a result", to me this means "it may attract more top players that want to use TFC as a stepping stone". it may do wonders for the national team playing overseas, but i'd take club on the same level as country any day.

TFCRegina
01-13-2012, 11:50 AM
Voyageurs are reporting that QPR have signed Dylan Carreiro and Michael Petrasso...

Huge blow to TFC academy if true, Petrasso is class

Don't feel too bad.

Good for country.

PopePouri
01-13-2012, 11:50 AM
i'm not calling you naive, i'm calling this thought naive.
YES this does signal TFC is scouting and training good talent which does in turn make us look better, but we're training it for OUR team, not anyone elses. we're paying for our scouts, trainers, and a new facility only to have someone poach our talent by saying "you can play for a bigger club".

when you say "it may attract more top players as a result", to me this means "it may attract more top players that want to use TFC as a stepping stone". it may do wonders for the national team playing overseas, but i'd take club on the same level as country any day.

I think you can say this for all teams though that aren't playing EPL, Bundesliga or La Liga. Even smaller teams in the EPL have to face this when bigger teams coming aknocking for their talent. Unless quality and salaries increase in MLS, we'll end up the West Ham of Canada.

Stouffville_RPB
01-13-2012, 12:02 PM
Don't feel too bad.

Good for country.

That is all well in good for Canada but as a TFC supporter this isn't good news. Sure it means we are doing a good job developing youngsters but as others have pointed out we aren't developing players, paying scouts, coaches etc for other clubs.

This is not good news for TFC and if we don't find a way in future to prevent this from happening we will just have leftovers. :scarf:

Roogsy
01-13-2012, 12:13 PM
There are other players also being looked at by teams outside MLS.

I mentioned this during the Aleman debacle and was shouted down. Now will someone listen to the need for incentives within the academy or should we just keep losing players like I said we would?

PopePouri
01-13-2012, 12:19 PM
There are other players also being looked at by teams outside MLS.

I mentioned this during the Aleman debacle and was shouted down. Now will someone listen to the need for incentives within the academy or should we just keep losing players like I said we would?

There's a difference between being poached by bigger clubs while remaining committed to the current academy compared to not committing at all in the hope you can sign elsewhere.

Rudi
01-13-2012, 12:20 PM
There are other players also being looked at by teams outside MLS.

I mentioned this during the Aleman debacle and was shouted down. Now will someone listen to the need for incentives within the academy or should we just keep losing players like I said we would?
What kind of incentives are you suggesting?

MLS academy rules are pretty strict about these sorts of things.

T-boy
01-13-2012, 12:20 PM
Unless TFC are being compensated $ by QPR, it makes the whole Aleman thing a fiasco! What would be the point of getting these youngsters to sign a contract unless it meant that there was some kind of compensation if they then got signed by somebody else?

T-boy
01-13-2012, 12:23 PM
There's a difference between being poached by bigger clubs while remaining committed to the current academy compared to not committing at all in the hope you can sign elsewhere.

Not really by the looks of it! TFC wanted Aleman to sign a contract to stop him from leaving if a bigger (European) club came knocking. But then these two players have now left and they DID sign a contract! So really, the contract hasn't stopped them from leaving at all! Which means that TFC not signing Alemen on the condition that he wouldn't sign the contract completel pointless! We may as well have signed him! These two players leaving proves that signing the contract didn't stop them from leaving!

Rudi
01-13-2012, 12:28 PM
Not really by the looks of it! TFC wanted Aleman to sign a contract to stop him from leaving if a bigger (European) club came knocking. But then these two players have now left and they DID sign a contract! So really, the contract hasn't stopped them from leaving at all! Which means that TFC not signing Alemen on the condition that he wouldn't sign the contract completel pointless! We may as well have signed him! These two players leaving proves that signing the contract didn't stop them from leaving!
I don't think you have enough exclamation points!

The point of the academy contract is not to keep players from leaving (a small number will inevitably leave for greener pastures). It's to insure TFC's investment in these kids.

In other words, if they leave then TFC should theoretically be compensated.

T-boy
01-13-2012, 12:29 PM
I don't think you have enough exclamation points!

The point of the academy contract is not to keep players from leaving (a small number will inevitably leave for greener pastures). It's to insure TFC's investment in these kids.

In other words, if they leave then TFC should theoretically be compensated.

Sorry!

:p

Roogsy
01-13-2012, 12:30 PM
There was already a long thread on this during the Aleman debacle. All I will say on this topic is this: Loyalty is earned. This team has demanded loyalty from everyone (fans, players, staff and of course in this case, prospects) without giving it back. It never works that way, at least not long-term. If someone can point me to a healthy relationship where the dynamic works this way, I would love to see it. So with that said, expect more of this type of scenario. As a general rule, the best of our academy will not be starting for TFC. The sooner we realize that, the sooner measures can be put in place to mitigate the losses. Hopefully that includes an organization that learns that loyalty is a two-way street.

T-boy
01-13-2012, 12:32 PM
Agreed Roogsy. It's the unfortunate state of the MLS really - most decent prospect are going to leave the league, and we currently can't stop this from happening. The lure of European football is always going to be bigger than staying in the MLS.

PopePouri
01-13-2012, 12:36 PM
Yes the outcome is that these players are leaving. But there's a right way and wrong way when giving up your big talent. From what limited knowledge I have of the situation, this is the right way. Petrasso is committed to the academy, he goes to QPR, we get some compensation for all future transfers. If QPR was out of the picture, time and resources would be given to Petrasso until he signs a senior contract.

Roogsy
01-13-2012, 12:36 PM
It's an unfortunate disadvantage in MLS. Being such a young league and having a fraction of the money available for players as other leagues, how do you fight that? At least to a degree where your efforts are not in vain? To start, you acknowledge your disadvantage and then you work on strategies to mitigate the impact of that disadvantage. Spending $20million on a new training facility is one part, but if you don't work on "employee retention" then it's money badly spent.

T-boy
01-13-2012, 12:40 PM
Yes the outcome is that these players are leaving. But there's a right way and wrong way when giving up your big talent. From what limited knowledge I have of the situation, this is the right way. Petrasso is committed to the academy, he goes to QPR, we get some compensation for all future transfers. If QPR was out of the picture, time and resources would be given to Petrasso until he signs a senior contract.

I think it would depend on the contract the players sign with QPR, and the future clauses within it. There could be a one time payment between QPR and TFC, or there could be clauses involved like future sales percentages, but this usually only involved the first transfer away from their new club. It could also involve clauses like playing in the first team, or international call ups. I don't think its automatically the case that we will get $ from future transfers?

PopePouri
01-13-2012, 12:45 PM
Well TFC's strategy from the start is to export these kids to get this type of compensation as well strengthen our first team. Plus it's not like the academy has failed to provide decent prospects already. For every player like Aleman and Petrasso that goes, there will always be players like Stinson and Morgan who want to apply their trade here. It's the nature of the MLS beast at the moment.


I think it would depend on the contract the players sign with QPR, and the future clauses within it. There could be a one time payment between QPR and TFC, or there could be clauses involved like future sales percentages, but this usually only involved the first transfer away from their new club. It could also involve clauses like playing in the first team, or international call ups. I don't think its automatically the case that we will get $ from future transfers?

True.

Greatest Ripoff
01-13-2012, 12:50 PM
Also from the same thread on the V's board:

"I have heard from a very reliable source that TFC will be receiving compensation from QPR for both players"

If that is true, they I can't see this being anything but a good thing for all parties involved. Toronto can move two new kids into their spot, the players get to move onto a higher level and this will only help attract more high level talent to the Academy.

Shway
01-13-2012, 01:18 PM
As long as the outcome is income then im Okay with this for now, these things will happen in these early stages

ag futbol
01-13-2012, 01:21 PM
^ At a certain point though, we want to be able to retain some of the better talent. VWFC had that problem with their academy previously. They produced some good players, but never transitioned anyone to the first team. Players VWFC could have used ended up playing in europe and the guys who we're left over were never really compared.

Anyway, not an easy situation to deal with....

Stryker
01-13-2012, 01:28 PM
Well TFC/MLSE must be getting compensated fairly well for it.
I don't think they'd invest 25 million in new facilities just to have the good players walk away for free.

Roogsy
01-13-2012, 01:32 PM
I'd be interested in hearing what "compensated well" actually means.

Oldtimer
01-13-2012, 01:42 PM
^ I would too. Undoubtedly we will. Unlike within MLS, it won't be secret.

Whoop
01-13-2012, 01:46 PM
Question:

I know that NCAA rules are pretty strict in terms of compensation. Pretty much that you can't be compensated.

So if you're an Academy player, but want to maintain your NCAA eligibility especially if things don't work out pro wise, what kind of compensation would anticipate?

Greatest Ripoff
01-13-2012, 01:54 PM
If we do get compensation, does it need to be shared with MSL? Since these payers don't have a contract with MLS, would MLS be entitled to any of the money or is there some sort of MLS Acedemy rule regarding this?

Whoop
01-13-2012, 01:56 PM
I mean it's all here.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/CB12.pdf

For example



The following pre-NCAA enrollment activities may be reviewed:
1. Contracts with a professional team.
2. Salary for participating in athletics.
3. Prize money.
4. Play with professionals.
5. Tryouts, practice or competition with a professional team.
6. Benefits from an agent or prospective agent.
7. Agreement to be represented by an agent.
8. Delayed initial full-time collegiate enrollment to participate in organized sports competition.
9. Any financial assistance based on athletics skills or participation.

Additionally



In Division I, in sports other than men’s ice hockey and skiing, a team is considered professional for a college-bound student-athlete (who initially enrolls full time at a college or university August 1, 2010, or thereafter) if he or she is provided more than
actual and necessary expenses for participation on the team. For those college-bound student-athletes who either compete in the sports of men’s ice hockey and skiing or initially enrolled full time at a college or university prior to August 1, 2010 (i.e., transfer student-athletes to Division I), a team is considered professional if it declares
itself to be professional or provides any player more than actual and necessary expenses for participation on the team. Therefore, team sport college-bound student-athletes who compete in the sports of men’s ice hockey or skiing or who initially enrolled full time at a college or university prior to August 1, 2010, may have
their eligibility negatively impacted by competing on teams with teammates who are compensated above actual and necessary expenses.

And



Actual and necessary expenses are limited to the following:
(a) Meals and lodging directly tied to competition and practice held in preparation for such competition;
(b) Transportation (i.e., expenses to and from practice and competition, cost of transportation from home to training/practice site at the beginning of the season and from training/practice site to home at the end of the season);
(c) Apparel, equipment and supplies related to participation on the team;
(d) Coaching and instruction, use of facilities and entry fees;
(e) Health/medical insurance, medical treatment and physical therapy;
and
(f) Other reasonable expenses (e.g., laundry money).


In terms of pro team tryouts:



Tryouts with a Professional Team Before Initial Collegiate
Enrollment
Permissible: Yes.
May receive actual and necessary expenses for one visit (up
to 48 hours) from each professional team. Self-financed tryouts may be
for more than 48 hours.

Joe Kool
01-13-2012, 01:58 PM
I am not hoping in any way that these players fail to live their dream overseas but since not all players who go through the EPL system actually ever see the first team so since they got their start with the TFC academy I wonder if that means TFC holds their rights if they decide to move back over to MLS? Some players may prefer a first team start here rather than a bench player in the EPL, Championship or whatever.

denime
01-13-2012, 02:04 PM
Question:

I know that NCAA rules are pretty strict in terms of compensation. Pretty much that you can't be compensated.

So if you're an Academy player, but want to maintain your NCAA eligibility especially if things don't work out pro wise, what kind of compensation would anticipate?


They will be compensated for every year of training with that club from age 12 and up.The is a formula for calculation I read it somewhere few years back.Not a big $$$ that's for sure.

However here is FIFA ruling on underage players transfers and training comp.

PAGE 57

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/51/56/07/transfer_commentary_06_en_1843.pdf

Whoop
01-13-2012, 02:08 PM
I'm talking about compensation for the players themselves.

i.e. outside of what I listed you can't accept anything else if you plan on going the NCAA route.

I mean, there are guys who get paid under the table and such, but that's against the rules and if you get caught you can't play soccer in the NCAA or your eligibility is severely compromised.

Davenport
01-13-2012, 02:13 PM
i'm not calling you naive, i'm calling this thought naive.
YES this does signal TFC is scouting and training good talent which does in turn make us look better, but we're training it for OUR team, not anyone elses. we're paying for our scouts, trainers, and a new facility only to have someone poach our talent by saying "you can play for a bigger club".

when you say "it may attract more top players as a result", to me this means "it may attract more top players that want to use TFC as a stepping stone". it may do wonders for the national team playing overseas, but i'd take club on the same level as country any day.


TFC's huge investment in time and money ending up with the best kids being skimmed off by Premiership clubs is not what this should be about.
The no. 1 reason to have an academy is to improve your own club.
This is not good news.

Dreadlocks
01-13-2012, 03:02 PM
Every club (especially the smaller ones) in the world, that has an academy, has this happen to them. It's the nature of the beast called soccer.

denime
01-13-2012, 03:15 PM
Every club (especially the smaller ones) in the world, that has an academy, has this happen to them. It's the nature of the beast called soccer.

Not just small omes,Fabregas was pouched by Arsenal from Barcelona at age of 14/15.

Still I would wait and see transfes being offical.Underage transfers are under the investigations from.UEFA and FIFA.If they don't have Euro passport both parents have to move with them,with Euro.passports 16 years old can transfer.

Whoop
01-13-2012, 03:22 PM
Carreiro turns 17 next week and Petrasso turns 17 in the summer.

T-boy
01-13-2012, 03:24 PM
TFC's huge investment in time and money ending up with the best kids being skimmed off by Premiership clubs is not what this should be about.
The no. 1 reason to have an academy is to improve your own club.
This is not good news.

I guess it depends on what we do with the "transfer money" (compenation) we receive for any players that move to another club? I'm assuming MLSE would re-invest the money into the youth set-up at TFC? But, there is no guarantee of this?! What if Man City came along and pouched a player from the youth team and offered silly money as compensation? Would we (the fans) benefit from this money? What would stop MLSE from pocketing a load of profit from some wonderkid youth player?

I assuming that any compensation from QPR would be put back into TFC's pockers to use somewhere, but its definitely no guarantee.

arsenal
01-13-2012, 03:42 PM
Not just small omes,Fabregas was pouched by Arsenal from Barcelona at age of 14/15.

Still I would wait and see transfes being offical.Underage transfers are under the investigations from.UEFA and FIFA.If they don't have Euro passport both parents have to move with them,with Euro.passports 16 years old can transfer.

In the twitter feed linked he said he just got Portuguese passport ... making things a lot easier.

prizby
01-13-2012, 03:52 PM
the ncaa rules are wack...all it takes to change the rules is for the alabama and lsu players on Monday to have collectively decided, we'll just sit down on the field and not play

Whoop
01-13-2012, 04:19 PM
But as a result, you can't compensate academy players - what some were talking about earlier - unless you want to forfeit your eligibility.

Ajax TFC
01-13-2012, 05:36 PM
this reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Homer finds out that his shares in the power plant have increased in value for the first time ever to $10. He sells them and buy's a couple beers with the money. A short time latter the shares become worth thousands.
not an exact comparison, but the point remains the same. That is that you don't willingly sell something for a bit of money that you don't really need when it has the potential to be worth a lot more later on.
A first team star will always be worth more than an academy star.
If it's true that MLS academy rules don't give clubs a way of protecting their academy players, then they need to change those rules. If MLS wants to move on to bigger things, they need their teams to be fielding the cream of their academy's crop, not the ones that European teams didn't want. They'll also need money, and by letting their academies' best get poached before reaching the MLS, they don't get anything whereas if they were to hold onto them they would get quite a bit that they could put towards raising the salary cap

denime
01-13-2012, 05:51 PM
But as a result, you can't compensate academy players - what some were talking about earlier - unless you want to forfeit your eligibility.

True,but I think you can make an offer to your top 3-4 players who are U17 NT and have potential to go to Europe if any offer comes around,since those top 3-5 have no intention to go to College anyway MLS teams should put something in place to keep them around(something = $$$).

rocker
01-13-2012, 07:03 PM
I'll wait until these guys are succeeding as men before I get too pissed off at losing them. Yes they are talented young players but there are no guarantees at this age. Unless they are the only good players in our academy, there will be more that will stick with us. Also, development doesn't occur at the same rate for each boy... Look at Mo Edu... hardly on the radar until later in college and now he played in the SPL. As long as the academy is always bringing new ones in, we'll find kids good enough for MLS (even if not good enough for Europe).

TFC/Everton
01-13-2012, 09:51 PM
This has been driving me nutts since I read it last night. It completely ruined my draft/CCL hype. However, this is a sign that our academy is developing quality players. How many academy players has Ajax lost over years to the EPL? We need to create an environment where our players want to stay. This is not the end of the world, but this is disappointing to say the least.

Club before country!

Toronto till I die!

felipe
01-16-2012, 10:02 AM
Even if they don't make it - two or three years playing in England in an EPL club's system will help them realize as much of their potential as possible - a lot more than if they stayed here.

Good for them, I hope they do make it!

prizby
01-16-2012, 10:35 AM
umm qpr is in the relegation zone right now...who says they will be a EPL team for years to come?

Yohan
01-16-2012, 10:39 AM
umm qpr is in the relegation zone right now...who says they will be a EPL team for years to come?
does EPL automatically mean they'd receive better youth academy training than they would in Canada?

nfitz
01-16-2012, 10:39 AM
umm qpr is in the relegation zone right now...who says they will be a EPL team for years to come?With their new manager, and looking at their upcoming matches to end of February .... home against Wigan, away to Aston Villa, home against Wolves, away to Blackburn, home to Fulham ...

I expect QPR should be safe. Though with 3 of their last 4 games against Tottenham, Chelsea, and Man City ... they'd better start picking up points!

Yohan
01-16-2012, 10:41 AM
I hope QPR gets relegated for such a shabby treatment of Neil Warnock

PopePouri
01-16-2012, 10:55 AM
Even if they don't make it - two or three years playing in England in an EPL club's system will help them realize as much of their potential as possible - a lot more than if they stayed here.

Good for them, I hope they do make it!

Not only that but they can turn pro earlier and actually make a living.

prizby
01-16-2012, 02:29 PM
does EPL automatically mean they'd receive better youth academy training than they would in Canada?

i was more referring to this:


Even if they don't make it - two or three years playing in England in an EPL club's system will help them realize as much of their potential as possible - a lot more than if they stayed here.

Good for them, I hope they do make it!

TFC/Everton
01-17-2012, 07:49 AM
I hope they do well, and yes it's good for country, but am I still allowed to be slightly pissed off? I guess Rome wasn't build in a day, nor was Ajax.

Red4ever
01-17-2012, 08:44 AM
I'm thrilled; unapologetically thrilled. I love TFC to death, and watching Petrasso play a half a dozen times , I'm sad we are losing him. That being said, if this means they're better when they come play for the national team, then every kid from our academy can get plucked by clubs in Jolly Old England, Spain, Germany, Guam and Narnia.

We want kids not to leave, we should become better, but they would be stupid not to take the chance and go over there and I hope that's what Danny told them.

Congrats boys, best of luck.

Fishnicker
01-17-2012, 10:20 AM
So if I read the FIFA reg correctly, we are due $40 000 for each player per year of training if we are a category 2 club (which I think we are) and $10 000 each per year if we are category 3, payable when the player signs a professional contract or when he turns 23. Does anyone know for sure what category we are? The regs state that it's re-evaluated each year based on the quality of training, facilities etc.

Will this FIFA mandated compensation be split with MLS like transfer fees are?

The regs are also clear on compensation - even if the player has not signed a professional contract. All you need is to be registered with the club, which we know they both are due to CSL regs.

So really, this seems to be SOP for clubs around the world, and I'm thrilled for players and the success of the academy in training players.

Joe Kool
01-17-2012, 10:26 AM
So if I read the FIFA reg correctly, we are due $40 000 for each player per year of training if we are a category 2 club (which I think we are) and $10 000 each per year if we are category 3, payable when the player signs a professional contract or when he turns 23. Doea anyone know for sure what category we are? The regs state that it's re-evaluated each year based on the quality of training, facilities etc.

Will this FIFA mandated compensation be split with MLS like transfer fees are?

The regs are also clear on compensation - even if the player has not signed a professional contract. All you need is to be registered with the club, which we know they both are due to CSL regs.

Se really, this seems to be SOP for clubs around the world, and I'm thrilled for players and the success of the academy in training players.

Since academy players are not on MLS contracts I don't think MLS has anything to do with it as far as transfer fees. Also, with them not being signed to MLS is there really a transfer from TFC? I think the FIFA transfer rules would have only applied if they were on a professional contract with TFC.

Yohan
01-17-2012, 10:44 AM
Since academy players are not on MLS contracts I don't think MLS has anything to do with it as far as transfer fees. Also, with them not being signed to MLS is there really a transfer from TFC? I think the FIFA transfer rules would have only applied if they were on a professional contract with TFC.
if not TFC, TFCA should be getting the transfer fees then

denime
01-17-2012, 10:54 AM
Since academy players are not on MLS contracts I don't think MLS has anything to do with it as far as transfer fees. Also, with them not being signed to MLS is there really a transfer from TFC? I think the FIFA transfer rules would have only applied if they were on a professional contract with TFC.

No need to be on contract,this is development fee of 40K per year that clubs are getting.

Roogsy
01-17-2012, 11:17 AM
I wonder if that is a pre-set development fee or if it's a negotiated fee. Either way, that's the fee that I heard as well, which to me is a pittance when you've invested millions in the academy and training facilities. We are basically giving them up "at cost". So how exactly does this benefit the first team?

phonzo
01-17-2012, 11:24 AM
I wonder if that is a pre-set development fee or if it's a negotiated fee. Either way, that's the fee that I heard as well, which to me is a pittance when you've invested millions in the academy and training facilities. We are basically giving them up "at cost". So how exactly does this benefit the first team?

Have to agree with Roogsy.

I'm all the academy and I think it's great the kids are getting picked up by other clubs to develop but there needs to be something back to the academy to further develop more younger players and more importantly a means to encourage the youths to stay and if they are great play for the first team.

Else this is a business model with a significant flaw - that is; it'll never make enough money :p

Fort York Redcoat
01-17-2012, 11:29 AM
I'd hope that the model improves with the reputation of the Academy itself. We've money invested but reputation takes time.

arsenal
01-17-2012, 11:31 AM
Have to agree with Roogsy.

I'm all the academy and I think it's great the kids are getting picked up by other clubs to develop but there needs to be something back to the academy to further develop more younger players and more importantly a means to encourage the youths to stay and if they are great play for the first team.

Else this is a business model with a significant flaw - that is; it'll never make enough money :p

Exactly. Have to wonder if the business plan submitted to justify the big spending on the academy accounted for the best and brightest prospects being plucked away early for this minimal fee. Makes it difficult to reap the bigger dollar transfers hoped for with the prospects that end up being leftover.

denime
01-17-2012, 11:32 AM
I wonder if that is a pre-set development fee or if it's a negotiated fee. Either way, that's the fee that I heard as well, which to me is a pittance when you've invested millions in the academy and training facilities. We are basically giving them up "at cost". So how exactly does this benefit the first team?

It is pre-set fee,based on many things,one of them is country of origin,there is some formula to calculate(can't find now) the fee.I remember Holland being number 1 on that list and clubs from there would get the most $$ for their players.

This move does not benefits the 1st team at all,I don't know what MLS rules are when it comes to this matter,but if TFCA does not set up something soon, we will be loosing our top players to Europe before they even play one game for TFC.

Whoop
01-17-2012, 11:35 AM
What would happen if a player is signed to a pro contract?

For example if Petrasso and Carreiro were signed with the first team? I take it if a team in Europe wanted them it would be more than $40k?

Roogsy
01-17-2012, 11:44 AM
Exactly. Have to wonder if the business plan submitted to justify the big spending on the academy accounted for the best and brightest prospects being plucked away early for this minimal fee. Makes it difficult to reap the bigger dollar transfers hoped for with the prospects that end up being leftover.


Exactly.

Listen, we are still going to get academy kids making it to the first team. But they are going to be the kids that aren't picked up by bigger clubs. For lack of a better word, the "leftovers". Most of these kids will be actively looking to move to "bigger" clubs.

That's why I don't have huge dreams of real impact kids making it to the first team from the academy. We will see some roleplayers, some bench players and some lower-tier MLS trade fodder, but the real cream of the academy will be playing elsewhere with little compensation to TFC and that is a shame.

PopePouri
01-17-2012, 11:47 AM
One wonders how independent academies like Sigma make money if they don't get much compensation from the players they export.

Fishnicker
01-17-2012, 12:27 PM
It's a fixed fee. Here's the FIFA table


Confederation Category I Category II Category III Category IV

AFC USD 40,000 USD 10,000 USD 2,000
CAF USD 30,000 USD 10,000 USD 2,000
CONCACAF USD 40,000 USD 10,000 USD 2,000
CONMEBOL USD 50,000 USD 30,000 USD 10,000 USD 2,000
OFC USD 30,000 USD 10,000 USD 2,000
UEFA EUR 90,000 EUR 60,000 EUR 30,000 EUR 10,000

In addition, if either sign a pro contract with QPR and then are transferred, we get a cut of the transfer fee (separate from compensation - it's called a Solidarity Contribution). This is for their entire career.

From FIFA -


If a professional player transfers during the validity of his employment
contract177 and the new club pays the former club compensation for
allowing the player to transfer to the new club, the new club shall
retain and distribute 5% of this transfer compensation to all clubs
where this player played between the ages of 12 and 23. The player
passport plays a key role in allocating the solidarity contribution to the
right clubs, as this passport helps to track all clubs for which the player
was registered from the age of 12 onwards.

Fort York Redcoat
01-17-2012, 12:32 PM
Exactly.

Listen, we are still going to get academy kids making it to the first team. But they are going to be the kids that aren't picked up by bigger clubs. For lack of a better word, the "leftovers". Most of these kids will be actively looking to move to "bigger" clubs.



And those "leftovers" will be plenty at first since our Academy is so young. Eventually, hopefully, with time and renown the leftovers will be fewer. This is because the world of football is huge and until MLS can match value with the larger amount of football nations in the world we will first need to be a feeder club.

BTW are they finished building that Academy yet??

PopePouri
01-17-2012, 12:47 PM
Exactly.

Listen, we are still going to get academy kids making it to the first team. But they are going to be the kids that aren't picked up by bigger clubs. For lack of a better word, the "leftovers". Most of these kids will be actively looking to move to "bigger" clubs.

If they leftovers are players like Morgan, I'd be happy with that.

Roogsy
01-17-2012, 01:03 PM
Fair enough. In my opinion, accepting that kind of mediocrity as "success" is only limiting something that has the potential to be much bigger and better.

Whoop
01-17-2012, 01:04 PM
So how does the Academy prevent itself from being poached?

denime
01-17-2012, 01:09 PM
One wonders how independent academies like Sigma make money if they don't get much compensation from the players they export.

By representing them as their agents and getting $$ from contract would be one way,other is fee from the FIFA and considering that parents are paying for practices any fee is extra $$ for Sigma Academy.

rocker
01-17-2012, 01:29 PM
I don't think the "leftovers" will be mediocre. Unless you think Morgan and Stinson-type players are mediocre players. I would disagree completely on that. These "leftovers" (I hate that word) are potential starters in MLS. What's wrong with the academy producing starters? This is Major League Soccer, a second tier league. If the academy is producing starters for a second-tier league then that's pretty good. If the next Messi comes up through the academy, there's no way in hell we're locking him down at age 16-17 and then getting him to sign a 4-year MLS deal, even Generation Adidas. His parents will have him outta here fast. We have to live with this reality. Given the power dynamics at play here, we cannot expect to lock down every kid who comes through the academy.

The kids that stick around will be the ones who are good enough to play in MLS but not good enough to have great options elsewhere. And that's perfectly fine for TFC's competitive future.

Greatest Ripoff
01-17-2012, 01:39 PM
I don't think the "leftovers" will be mediocre. Unless you think Morgan and Stinson-type players are mediocre players. I would disagree completely on that. These "leftovers" (I hate that word) are potential starters in MLS. What's wrong with the academy producing starters? This is Major League Soccer, a second tier league. If the academy is producing starters for a second-tier league then that's pretty good. If the next Messi comes up through the academy, there's no way in hell we're locking him down at age 16-17 and then getting him to sign a 4-year MLS deal, even Generation Adidas. His parents will have him outta here fast. We have to live with this reality. Given the power dynamics at play here, we cannot expect to lock down every kid who comes through the academy.

The kids that stick around will be the ones who are good enough to play in MLS but not good enough to have great options elsewhere. And that's perfectly fine for TFC's competitive future.

I think this is spot on. And maybe 20 years from now North America with be a place most of these kids will want to stay and play football. I think calling our academy a failure because of this situation is is fairly short sighted.

Also, how long had these kids been with TFCA? I think when the academy moves forward and kids start joining at 6 or even 10 years of age and have only ever been in our academy, they'll have more of an attachment and want to make all the way to the first team.

ag futbol
01-17-2012, 03:10 PM
I don't think the "leftovers" will be mediocre. Unless you think Morgan and Stinson-type players are mediocre players. I would disagree completely on that. These "leftovers" (I hate that word) are potential starters in MLS. What's wrong with the academy producing starters?
Potential is still the key word in that statement. I also do not think that the quality of the other players who stay absolves MLS academies from trying to keep their better players for at least a little while. That being said, these structural problems go beyond TFC, so i do not necessarily think we should look at this as being club specific.



This is Major League Soccer, a second tier league. If the academy is producing starters for a second-tier league then that's pretty good. If the next Messi comes up through the academy, there's no way in hell we're locking him down at age 16-17 and then getting him to sign a 4-year MLS deal, even Generation Adidas. His parents will have him outta here fast. We have to live with this reality. Given the power dynamics at play here, we cannot expect to lock down every kid who comes through the academy.

Sounds incredibly defeatist. If Altidore can spend a year or two in NY, if Ronaldo can spend a year or two at sporting, why can't TFC lock down solid prospects for a year or two for the sake of their development and for the purpose of potentially returning millions of dollars to the club?

If we're resigned to losing academy players before they even develop to first team material something is wrong. If I were TFC, I would be doing everything in my power to convince kids that their BEST path would be to stay in the academy and sign their first pro deal with TFC, beyond that the future can take them anywhere they want.

moralis
01-17-2012, 03:39 PM
Accoring to Steven Sandor of the11.ca, both Dylan Carreiro and Michael Petrasso have not signed or are even on trial with QPR:

http://the11.ca/2012/01/17/rumour-mill-debunked-qpr-states-it-hasnt-signed-tfc-academy-players/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rumour-mill-debunked-qpr-states-it-hasnt-signed-tfc-academy-players

http://twitter.com/#!/the11ca

Hugh Jazz
01-17-2012, 03:59 PM
So how does the Academy prevent itself from being poached?

As its already been said, its the league that needs to do more than the club.

However, one thing the club can to do increase its chances of retaining top talent is becoming a league powerhouse. If you're a local kid in the academy I think it makes a big difference whether your club is routinely mediocre or top of the league, regardless of the league you're in. Lets hope this is the year we head in that direction! :scarf:

iy12l
01-17-2012, 04:18 PM
Accoring to Steven Sandor of the11.ca, both Dylan Carreiro and Michael Petrasso have not signed or are even on trial with QPR:

http://the11.ca/2012/01/17/rumour-mill-debunked-qpr-states-it-hasnt-signed-tfc-academy-players/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rumour-mill-debunked-qpr-states-it-hasnt-signed-tfc-academy-players

http://twitter.com/#!/the11ca (http://twitter.com/#%21/the11ca)

thank god. if i were winter i would sign these 3 youth academy players.
stefan vukovic
sergio camargo
micheal petrasso

Greatest Ripoff
01-17-2012, 04:33 PM
Accoring to Steven Sandor of the11.ca, both Dylan Carreiro and Michael Petrasso have not signed or are even on trial with QPR:

http://the11.ca/2012/01/17/rumour-mill-debunked-qpr-states-it-hasnt-signed-tfc-academy-players/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rumour-mill-debunked-qpr-states-it-hasnt-signed-tfc-academy-players

http://twitter.com/#!/the11ca

So then Dylan Carreiro wasn't telling the turth when he tweeted that he was signing with QPR or maybe it's just not finalized yet?

Roogsy
01-17-2012, 04:55 PM
Potential is still the key word in that statement. I also do not think that the quality of the other players who stay absolves MLS academies from trying to keep their better players for at least a little while. That being said, these structural problems go beyond TFC, so i do not necessarily think we should look at this as being club specific.


Sounds incredibly defeatist. If Altidore can spend a year or two in NY, if Ronaldo can spend a year or two at sporting, why can't TFC lock down solid prospects for a year or two for the sake of their development and for the purpose of potentially returning millions of dollars to the club?

If we're resigned to losing academy players before they even develop to first team material something is wrong. If I were TFC, I would be doing everything in my power to convince kids that their BEST path would be to stay in the academy and sign their first pro deal with TFC, beyond that the future can take them anywhere they want.

This 100%

Whoop
01-17-2012, 05:11 PM
Only difference was Altidore was drafted by the NYRB at the age of 16. And Cristiano Ronaldo wasn't going the NCAA route.

So the old way to "keep them" is to sign them at 16 years of age (do MLS rules allow that?) so that they can be signed to the first team. Once they are signed then the team can hold on to them or transfer them for a larger fee.

But at the age of 16 how many players are going to sign with a MLS team even for say $250,000?

The problem is the NCAA and the leverage the player has. The player could say I'm not sure about signing yet because I want to keep my options open in case I get hurt or going pro doesn't pan out.

I think that's where the Academy was laying down the line before saying if you come to the Academy you're making a commitment to play for TFC down the road not go for a NCAA scholarship (though that avenue would still remain open) or go overseas. In essence, committing to the Academy until you're 18 and then the you and the team can make a decision of whether you should go to school for more seasoning, sign with the first team, or release you.

ag futbol
01-17-2012, 11:47 PM
Only difference was Altidore was drafted by the NYRB at the age of 16. And Cristiano Ronaldo wasn't going the NCAA route.

So the old way to "keep them" is to sign them at 16 years of age (do MLS rules allow that?) so that they can be signed to the first team. Once they are signed then the team can hold on to them or transfer them for a larger fee.

But at the age of 16 how many players are going to sign with a MLS team even for say $250,000?


The problem is the NCAA and the leverage the player has. The player could say I'm not sure about signing yet because I want to keep my options open in case I get hurt or going pro doesn't pan out.

I think that's where the Academy was laying down the line before saying if you come to the Academy you're making a commitment to play for TFC down the road not go for a NCAA scholarship (though that avenue would still remain open) or go overseas. In essence, committing to the Academy until you're 18 and then the you and the team can make a decision of whether you should go to school for more seasoning, sign with the first team, or release you.
I don't think NCAA should be an issue. You're not fully committed to going pro if NCAA is something you're exploring. It's a hedge in the event you're not good enough to meet a certain standard.

For the bolded part, I think people are tying themselves in knots here a little more than they have to. If MLS teams are serious about talent development, then you should be able to retain your prospects at an early stage. It is done elsewhere, it can be done here.

However, in order to actually do this the MLS academy system has to be refined further. To me, currently it looks like we're stuck at an awkward level where MLS has invested more to produce a better product, that product is starting to show up, but teams /the league / Bob Kraft are too cheap to run the final quarter mile of the race to realize the reward of producing these better players (which would actually pay for itself when you think of it).

Whoop
01-18-2012, 12:11 AM
But that's part of my point, could you even sign a 16 year old to play for your first team even if he was exceptional? Do MLS rules allow it?

Strait shooter
01-18-2012, 08:19 AM
[Accoring to Steven Sandor of the11.ca, both Dylan Carreiro and Michael Petrasso have not signed or are even on trial with QPR:]

It is safe to say that QPR are being truthful. Trials likely happened last month. Therefore can say that they are not there on trial. Paperwork can take a long time in the football world. Ongoing negotiations probably, so "not signed".

Probable don't have to worry about all the best players leaving the academy for Europe. Not every player has a european passport. Therefore more challenging to get into Europe and teams don't tend to put as much work into bringing in a young player if it takes a lot of effort.

prizby
01-18-2012, 09:35 AM
But that's part of my point, could you even sign a 16 year old to play for your first team even if he was exceptional? Do MLS rules allow it?

yes...new england revolution...Diego Fagundez

Kaz
01-18-2012, 10:17 AM
People understand we are not the EPL yes?

The Academy is going to produce great kids, those kids are going to be taken by big clubs in Europe. That makes sense because those are the kids with the skills developing to play there and who would be above MLS.

There will be other kids who will not be at that level but still good MLS level players.

We have an Academy that will produce Kids for us and kids too good for us, and that will be good for Canada.

Will every year result is awesomeness for MLS... no... but the Academy will produce what we need.

prizby
01-18-2012, 10:21 AM
I'd like to come to the stage where we are producing awesome players that will play for TFC up until they are 22-24; then sold for a massive profit and already have an 18-20 year old ready to fill that persons spot...be like an Ajax.

Whoop
01-18-2012, 10:25 AM
yes...new england revolution...Diego Fagundez

Thanks.

So there you go.

You want to keep guys around, you'll have to sign them earlier.

Whoop
01-18-2012, 10:26 AM
I'd like to come to the stage where we are producing awesome players that will play for TFC up until they are 22-24; then sold for a massive profit and already have an 18-20 year old ready to fill that persons spot...be like an Ajax.

That's what I see the future of the MLS as.

It will be a good, competitive league down the road but it's best players will always be sold abroad.

prizby
01-18-2012, 10:32 AM
That's what I see the future of the MLS as.

It will be a good, competitive league down the road but it's best players will always be sold abroad.

i honestly feel that Toronto could be the first team to get to this stage...and then the rest of the MLS will be years behind us and see how it really works and will follow suit. We will pioneer this and be set up for a long good run at the playoffs for many years

Roogsy
01-18-2012, 10:33 AM
Probable don't have to worry about all the best players leaving the academy for Europe. Not every player has a european passport. Therefore more challenging to get into Europe and teams don't tend to put as much work into bringing in a young player if it takes a lot of effort.

This is a good point and probably a life-saver for our academy. But hard to give MLSE credit for that since it is a structural advantage we have.

prizby
01-18-2012, 10:41 AM
This is a good point and probably a life-saver for our academy. But hard to give MLSE credit for that since it is a structural advantage we have.

if they are getting full caps with the senior team though, then they could go (if they are seeing regular call ups)

phonzo
01-18-2012, 10:43 AM
Diego and in some ways Montero for Seattle; they found him, kid produced and DP contract so they wouldn't lose him. Wisest move in the long run is yet to be determined...

ag futbol
01-18-2012, 11:02 AM
People understand we are not the EPL yes?

But I'd point out the way you're structuring the argument, an EPL academy is not the EPL because very few kids are actually able to successfully navigate that development route. It is not the direct path people are making it sound like. Using this logic, we'd be telling Ajax to sell their best players in their teens because they can only reside to losing them anyway.

Developing for smaller team in smaller leagues has merit, as long as the club is committed to it.

Whoop
01-18-2012, 11:10 AM
Another difference though is that kids, who may want to play in England or Spain down the road, aren't going to leave or want to leave Ajax at 16. There is merit to developing further within a structure instead of bolting at the first opportunity when something "bigger" comes up.

ag futbol
01-18-2012, 11:26 AM
^ I don't disagree, the reason why they are not leaving is because Ajax has a vision for their development. If TFC can have their own unique vision, they can have the same benefits. And while Ajax is the obvious example, I'm sure we could come up with lots of others for teams anywhere south of Texas.

Chris Wren
01-18-2012, 11:37 AM
This happens all over the world. The TFC Academy is going to produce some good players. Some are going to leave and some will stay. It's going to come down to the individuals involved and the circumstances they are offered. We have to accept our place in the grand scheme of things as of right now, while looking to always grow.

Some players will develop faster than others, some will have promise and flame out, some will develop steadily and be good players in the MLS and every so often one will emerge as a star. As long as we can have that player signed before he emerges, we'll be compensated fairly for losing him.

If our league continues to grow more players will start seeing the MLS as a good option. All signs point to this being the case if you look at stadiums being built, expanding DP rules, better T.V. contracts. The MLS is on the map when even 5 years ago it wasn't so much.

Suds
01-18-2012, 11:57 AM
^^
It's normal in running academies. As noted today via BBC: Chelsea sign three Luton Town brothers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/16601927.stm)


Chelsea have signed three Luton Town youth players, all of them brothers, for a five-figure sum each ... Luton say the total value of the deal could top £1m should the trio play in the Chelsea first team.

Kaz
01-18-2012, 12:50 PM
But I'd point out the way you're structuring the argument, an EPL academy is not the EPL because very few kids are actually able to successfully navigate that development route. It is not the direct path people are making it sound like. Using this logic, we'd be telling Ajax to sell their best players in their teens because they can only reside to losing them anyway.

Developing for smaller team in smaller leagues has merit, as long as the club is committed to it.


No what I'm saying is that you develop your players as best you can, if a Euro Club comes knocking and they impress at the U17-U18 level, then you let them develop, and the kids that can play in MLS and be stars here can stay and be stars of our league.

I'd prefer the kids stick around and do the Ajax thing where you get 3-4 years out of a player between 19-24 and then they get picked up in Europe.. That would be great, but honestly we aren't there yet.

Huyton
01-18-2012, 01:16 PM
Part of the problem at the moment is that the Academy plays in the CSL...which may not exist for much longer in a form that is useful for TFC.

Greatest Ripoff
01-18-2012, 01:43 PM
Part of the problem at the moment is that the Academy plays in the CSL...which may not exist for much longer in a form that is useful for TFC.

Does anyone if it makes sense or is even possible for the academy to play in the new League 1 Ontario?

Fort York Redcoat
01-18-2012, 03:02 PM
Does anyone if it makes sense or is even possible for the academy to play in the new League 1 Ontario?

It makes complete sense but a few things have to happen first.

-The Accies need to play in a CSA sanctioned league. League one is aiming to meet all standards for this.

-The CSL and its teams have not all met those standards. It will be seen what action is taken to teams that will not comply. I see either those teams will be dropped and the CSL remains with more stringent laws and stronger than ever or the CSL's strongest teams rally against this act and operate outside the CSA. If that happens I would think TFC Academy would hop to League one.

Either scenario for TFC Academy would find them with a competitive league to play in. It's the strongest teams (on the pitch) that have decided to leave CSL to create League 1.

It may seem like a step backward going from CSL (multiprovincial) to League one (Ont only) but the standard of play would not change much and the stability it gives the lower league football in Canada is all-important to the growth of the tiers between MLS and the grassroots level.

Whoop
01-18-2012, 05:55 PM
Thomas Rongen's vision for the TFC Academy.

Can't say he's wrong.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/01/18/reds-to-compete-with-ncaa-for-players

denime
01-19-2012, 06:42 AM
Thomas Rongen's vision for the TFC Academy.

Can't say he's wrong.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/01/18/reds-to-compete-with-ncaa-for-players



Agree !

TFC/Everton
01-19-2012, 06:48 AM
Thomas Rongen's vision for the TFC Academy.

Can't say he's wrong.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/01/18/reds-to-compete-with-ncaa-for-players

Great article!

golasogolaso
01-19-2012, 09:51 AM
How about MLS teams for once build a proper scouting plan and actually get out and look for players they want and make a proper contract offer to secure them as pros. No one is holding them back from doing this. Isnt this what NCAA coaches do when approaching a player? Rongen (and every MLS coach) should focus on the challenges their own club faces, and their sales pitch to potential players on why foregoing college to play a few reserve games under TFC staff is the best route to take, when such a small amount of kids actually make it pro (MLS). Both paths to the pros (reserve or ncaa) have their pros/cons but it should be stressed that these are not competing programs, rather complimentary. As a player, find a good youth program with excellent educators in your area(Academy- MLS or non). Players eligibile to go to university will have a choice to make based on what is offered- to stay with reserve team or go to school. Those not eligible, not much choice for them.

Whoop
01-19-2012, 10:13 AM
But again, if TFC offers a contract to a player at 16, in order to make sure he doesn't bolt across the pond, he becomes a professional in the eyes of the NCAA. But once he signs a contract now that player has to be judged against the other professionals on the team. If he doesn't make any progress in 2-3 years, he can just be dropped.

At that point he can't go to school, he has to find other footballing options.

But this is what people mean about soccer culture in NA. In North America, most have "play HS soccer, go the NCAA route and then MLS."

Then the philosophical discussion becomes, is the TFC Academy supposed to develop players for the first team or to develop players to go to school? I think a player making a decision on whether or not to go to the Academy has to take that into consideration before accepting a spot.

It's a mindset that has to change.

If I'm an advisor or agent I would tell the kid at 16, "sign the contract, but the first thing you do is put a chunk of it away for school in case things don't work out" or have the team put aside money for school in case things don't work out. But most don't, the first thing they'll do is buy a car.

Greatest Ripoff
01-19-2012, 10:34 AM
But again, if TFC offers a contract to a player at 16, in order to make sure he doesn't bolt across the pond, he becomes a professional in the eyes of the NCAA. But once he signs a contract now that player has to be judged against the other professionals on the team. If he doesn't make any progress in 2-3 years, he can just be dropped.

At that point he can't go to school, he has to find other footballing options.


I think this is where TFC can take a page for the OHL who also competes against the NCAA for players. When a players career is over, the OHL will provide their former players with, "a minimum scholarship of tuition, textbooks and compulsory fees towards an undergraduate degree for each year played in the Ontario Hockey League."

http://www.bestofbothworlds.ca/ohl-scholarship-s12057

denime
01-19-2012, 10:55 AM
But again, if TFC offers a contract to a player at 16, in order to make sure he doesn't bolt across the pond, he becomes a professional in the eyes of the NCAA. But once he signs a contract now that player has to be judged against the other professionals on the team. If he doesn't make any progress in 2-3 years, he can just be dropped.

At that point he can't go to school, he has to find other footballing options.

But this is what people mean about soccer culture in NA. In North America, most have "play HS soccer, go the NCAA route and then MLS."

Then the philosophical discussion becomes, is the TFC Academy supposed to develop players for the first team or to develop players to go to school? I think a player making a decision on whether or not to go to the Academy has to take that into consideration before accepting a spot.

It's a mindset that has to change.

If I'm an advisor or agent I would tell the kid at 16, "sign the contract, but the first thing you do is put a chunk of it away for school in case things don't work out" or have the team put aside money for school in case things don't work out. But most don't, the first thing they'll do is buy a car.


I can tell you one thing for sure,TFCA is set up to develop players for TFC 1st team.
I read the forms for TFCA, letter of commitment,etc,and it is clearly stated that TFCA is developing players for TFC 1st team and not for NCAA.

It comes down to players own commitment and talent where is he end up.

Whoop
01-19-2012, 11:01 AM
That's what I mean.

That's the risk you have to take to follow your dream.

Blowing Bubbles
01-20-2012, 11:46 PM
I'm not sure why there's so much giddyness over the fact that we've arrived in the world of academy transfers ..... we're the fucking fish in a world of sharks.

Yes this is inevitable but imo it's not optimal .... you're not going to get ahead with an academy by continually churning out a bunch of early sales for $40k or whatever the compensation package is.

I would think you'd rather be in a scenario where you are holding onto players longer, have a tonne of sunk costs from kids who are promising at 16 but are busts at 21, and then along the way generate a few kids on the long tail that turn into $250k+ type sales and then every couple of years you're selling a player for 1MM+ (plus the handful that are impact players for the 1st team)

Macksam
01-22-2012, 01:48 PM
It would be ideal if TFC can loan both these players back for a season or two.

Dub Narcotic
01-22-2012, 10:15 PM
Any more word if these two are actually leaving?

Blowing Bubbles
01-26-2012, 11:25 PM
It would be ideal if TFC can loan both these players back for a season or two.

show your work.

How does loaning them back help? They take up spots from the next round of kids coming up and they're not ready for the 1st team. Less cheeseburgers for everyone else imo.