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Yohan
01-12-2012, 04:26 PM
http://www.concacaf.com/page/CL/NewsDetail/0,,12813~2575174,00.html (http://www.concacaf.com/page/CL/NewsDetail/0,,12813%7E2575174,00.html)



NEW YORK - The Preliminary Round will be eliminated from next season's CONCACAF Champions League under a format change announced Thursday by the confederation.

The four-year-old competition will remain a 24-club tournament, but instead of an initial knockout phase of 16 teams, all qualifiers will proceed to a main stage of eight, three-team groups, from which only the winners will advance to the quarterfinals.
The knockout, or Championship Round, will not be altered.

No team will face another club from the same country in the group stage - except in the case of a reallocated or "wild card" berth, and each group will contain either a Mexican or U.S. club.

"This new format will streamline the first phase of the competition," said Ted Howard, CONCACAF's acting general secretary. "It will alleviate schedule congestion on both domestic and international calendars."

The competition will begin as previously planned during the week of July 31, resuming with games the weeks of August 21, August 28, September 18, September 25 and October 23. Eight games will be contested each of those weeks as previously on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.

With each team playing four matches instead of six, and the elimination of the Preliminary Round, the initial phases of the competition will be pared from 64 to 48 games.

The top two teams from the United States and Mexico along with the top qualified sides from Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama will be placed in the top seeded group for purposes of the draw. The second two teams from the United States and Mexico, Canada's entrant as well a the top team from El Salvador and the second teams from Costa Rica and Honduras will be placed in a second group of seeds.

The three Caribbean teams, as well as the qualifiers from Belize and Nicaragua and the second teams from El Salvador, Guatemala and Panama will be placed in a final group.

Quarterfinal legs will be played March 5-7 and March 12-14, with the semifinals April 2-4 and April 9-11. The finals are slated for April 24 and May 1.

kodiakTFC
01-12-2012, 04:29 PM
This is very good for TFC, by the end of the group stage we'll have played 4 games rather than 8. I'm a fan of this but I have to admit that Pot 1 has some very odd choices to say the least. I have a hard time believing Guatemala, Honduras and Panama field better teams than Canada.

mowe
01-12-2012, 04:36 PM
GREAT change. For TFC to get to the knockout stage again they'd only have to play 4 games compared to 8 last year.

Depending on which 1 seed you get drawn with, qualification can be easier or harder.

I was actually hoping this year TFC didn't win the Voyageurs Cup because of the schedule congestion it brings but I take that back now.

Great job to CONCACAF for realizing that travel in this region is brutal, and doing something about it.

BeachTory
01-12-2012, 05:09 PM
I like the reduction in games. It is supposed to be a regional competition but since each group to hold a US or Mex team this means no Mex team will play a US team in the group stages - 8 groups, 8 teams. It is quite possible as a result that all 8 qualifiers will be either US or Mex. the way the seeding is set up. it also means that every minnow will see a US/Mex team at home.

On balance, the CDN champ is forced into a pot with either one of the 2 best US or the 2 best Mex qualifiers. very very tough. And for a minnow they will get to play down south in conditions that are equivalent to the Esteli goat herders patch where there was no hotel for our players within 2 hours bus ride of the 'stadium'

As always, ya gotta win against the big boys eventually if you are going further so bring them on.

Yagbod
01-12-2012, 05:18 PM
I think this is terrible and horrible.

1) It means 2 fewer home games for TFC.
2) It means 2 fewer home games for TFC.
and most of all 3) It means 2 fewer home games for TFC.

The best part of this competition was the addition of those home games. I wouldn't be surprised at all if TFC starts booking Friendlies again to compensate.

Plus, if I read this right it looks like we are going to be in tougher groups. That could be good or bad, but it means we are less likely to progress which, again, means:

Less games to go to!!! (BOOOOOO!!!)

prizby
01-12-2012, 05:27 PM
maybe for once the mls allstars can now actually be at the allstar game

Whoop
01-12-2012, 05:29 PM
Who cares about the MLS All-Star game?

All-star games are pointless in virtually every sport.

Yagbod
01-12-2012, 05:29 PM
maybe for once the mls allstars can now actually be at the allstar game

Don't get me started on the "All Star Waste of Time Game"...

MartinUtd
01-12-2012, 06:09 PM
Schedule congestion aside, this seems like it would hurt TFC's chances of advancing further. With Canada being a second seed it means we'll have a 75% chance of drawing a Mexican or MLS top seed. To the victor go the spoils. It's definitely more difficult having to finish first ahead of those teams.

BeachTory
01-12-2012, 06:20 PM
The Concacaf site press release shows:

http://www.concacaf.com/page/CL/NewsDetail/0,,12813~2575174,00.html
No team will face another club from the same country in the group stage – except in the case of a reallocated or “wild card” berth, and each group will contain either a Mexican or U.S. club.

4 US teams, 4 Mex. each group to have one, therefore all groups have one. therefore the 4 only candidates for cdn champ are USA 1a 1b or Mex 1a, 1b

very very tough groups no matter how you slice it.

and that also means 50% btw to face a MLS team, not 75%

MartinUtd
01-12-2012, 06:26 PM
Some how got it into my head that 3 MEX & US teams qualify.... it was a reading fail instead of a math fail..lol
So let's try this again: That means we'll definitely (100%) have to finish ahead of a Mexican or MLS top seed.

BeachTory
01-12-2012, 06:29 PM
yep - we have our work cut out for sure.

(note assumption that we are NEVER going to let wet coast or limp-act etc have a chance)

NBS
01-12-2012, 06:33 PM
I don't know how anybody sees this as good news for TFC. They're road to the CCL playoffs just got harder.

CanadaLFC
01-12-2012, 06:37 PM
I don't know how anybody sees this as good news for TFC. They're road to the CCL playoffs just got harder.

The CCL playoffs?..You mean game number #1 of the concacaf champions league eastern conference semi-final playoff soccer

ForeverTFC
01-12-2012, 06:42 PM
This is terrible for TFC. We are automatically in the group of death.

Can only draw seed 1 or 2 from Mexico or USA, and will have to finish above them to move on.

Yohan
01-12-2012, 06:45 PM
I don't know how anybody sees this as good news for TFC. They're road to the CCL playoffs just got harder.
why?

TFC is competitive against Mexican teams. TFC can beat any MLS team on any given day

If TFC isn't good enough to beat the Mexican or an American team, they don't belong in the playoffs anyways

ForeverTFC
01-12-2012, 06:56 PM
why?

TFC is competitive against Mexican teams. TFC can beat any MLS team on any given day

If TFC isn't good enough to beat the Mexican or an American team, they don't belong in the playoffs anyways


What has Panama done to deserve ranking above us?

Remember this is the 1st or 2nd seed out of USA or Mexico. Concacaf has done it again.

MartinUtd
01-12-2012, 07:02 PM
What has Panama done to deserve ranking above us?

Remember this is the 1st or 2nd seed out of USA or Mexico. Concacaf has done it again.

They have an actual league.

mowe
01-12-2012, 07:19 PM
While the Mexican teams are a problem, I like TFC's chances against any US team.

Another thing is this quote from the article:

No team will face another club from the same country in the group stage - except in the case of a reallocated or "wild card" berth, and each group will contain either a Mexican or U.S. club.
If that's true then TFC can only be drawn into a group with a Mexican or US top seed (50% chance of each). That would also mean that Mexican and US teams can't be in the same group.


Also, TFC can't be in a group with a top seed from Costa Rica, Honduras, El Salvador, and Panama. It's a draw with a lot of restrictions, but it does lead the groups to be more balanced.

Ajax TFC
01-12-2012, 07:21 PM
What happens if TFC wins the MLS cup / Supporters shield? do we then go as an American seed, or can we not get in that way?

Auzzy
01-12-2012, 07:28 PM
What happens if TFC wins the MLS cup / Supporters shield? do we then go as an American seed, or can we not get in that way?

No, TFC can't qualify that way, only via NCC. That slot would go to the next-best US team instead.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-12-2012, 07:42 PM
although its prob better for us in the long run, i prefer it in its traditional way (a la EU CL)

FIAF
01-12-2012, 09:10 PM
What has the US done to have the same berths as Mexico, anyway?

I like how there's less matches but it seems harder. Wouldn't have qualified this year. Having to finish 1st.

Yohan
01-12-2012, 09:23 PM
What has the US done to have the same berths as Mexico, anyway?

I like how there's less matches but it seems harder. Wouldn't have qualified this year. Having to finish 1st.

Uh, reach the finals of ccl last yr?

NBS
01-12-2012, 09:36 PM
Uh, reach the finals of ccl last yr?

Really? That's enough for you?

Nobody has dominated this tournament like Mexican teams. Thus, nobody should have as many slots as them. They should have more, or the US should have fewer.

nfitz
01-12-2012, 10:21 PM
4 US teams, 4 Mex. each group to have one, therefore all groups have one. therefore the 4 only candidates for cdn champ are USA 1a 1b or Mex 1a, 1bWe appear to have been shafted - along with El Salvador.

FIAF
01-13-2012, 12:17 AM
Uh, reach the finals of ccl last yr?

I've checked to see how we rank with the Central American teams and I saw last year was the only time a USA team has reached the final in more than a decade. And if I remember correctly, they have always had 4 teams that's horrifying.

PAOK17
01-13-2012, 05:52 AM
hence why I always say we need a proper coefficient system for both clubs and nations represented by clubs just like UEFA does. In that system only a country's club performances in Europa and CL are taken into account. The number of teams in each league or how those teams are determined are irrelevant. Scotland has a 12-team league and in theory can receive 4 CL berths and whatever the maximum is for Europa League (i.e. have more than half of their teams qualifying for Europe).

Secondly, seeding for group draws are supposed to be based on that specific team's co-efficient and not the country they are from. That's why Tottenham was a pot 4 team their first year of CL and not an automatic Pot 1 because they are English.

Why should it matter if we decide our one champion from a pool of 4 teams? If our teams are stronger than those from Panama and Costa Rica then we should be seeded ahead in terms of number of berths. It's not like our teams are playing fewer games than the others...it's just the structure of our league and for those who think we have a Mickey Mouse structure with the MLS and CSA well then just look at the the CCL format.

Also the US having 4 teams is arbitrary as well. RSL making the finals once doesn't mean they deserve the maximum number of slots. Porto won the CL, I don't see Portugal being handed 4 teams.

CSO_BBTB
01-13-2012, 06:08 AM
Good to see that the Canadian entrant now makes the second pot in seeding terms but the fix is in to make sure that the Canadian team doesn't get to face the top qualified sides from Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama. Think that means a 50% probability of facing a Mexican team.

Oldtimer
01-13-2012, 08:17 AM
This is not about Canada. Canada is irrelevant to this decision. This is all about ensuring more U.S. vs. Mexico games, which bring in the TV audiences and the big money. It's all about the dollars.

prizby
01-13-2012, 08:58 AM
if the mexican and american teams are not going to be in the same group, then why are 2 from each country going to be seeded #2...whats the point in seeding them as #2 if they can't be seeded with half of #1...they should all be seeded #1...why make things so damn complicated and stupid concacaf

Lucky Strike
01-13-2012, 09:03 AM
Schedule congestion aside, this seems like it would hurt TFC's chances of advancing further.

This. I think someone said if TFC advances, we'll really have earned it (by beating a top Mexican or MLS side) but I don't know, TFC's current progression past the group stage doesn't feel any less earned, does it?

Plus it means that some groups will end up having a minnow of the minnows which in the preliminary rounds in the past often got hammered by huge aggregrate scores. Examples:

2008-09: Cruz Azul - Hankook Verdes (Belize) 12-0
2009-10: Pachuca - Jalapa (Guatemala) 10-1
2010-11: Santos Laguna - San Juan Jabloteh (Trinidad) 6-0
Cruz Azul - San Francisco (Panama) 9-2
2011-12: Morelia - Tempête (Haiti) 7-0
Herediano (Costa Rica) - Alpha United (Guyana) 10-2

Without the preliminaries, these minnows won't be eliminated early on. Some groups will then come down to who can humiliate the minnow more than the other.

But while I can get past the above (the above would only happen in the event that other tie-breakers cannot break the tie), it's obvious that the way the groups are set up that CONCACAF wants as many US vs. Mexico match-ups as possible for money-related purposes, but this really could backfire on them in the sense that MLS teams (TFC excluded) in general have shit the bed vs. Mexican ones in the CCL. It's not inconceivable that you could end up with all 4 Mexican teams in the semi-finals. It's actually happened before (2009-10).

Overall, I'm leaning against the changes so far. I don't think they'll benefit the competition or TFC. It's really about the money and growing the rivalry between US and Mexican teams. Someone said it: the canadian representative is automatically in a group of death.

james
01-13-2012, 10:18 AM
im guessing they cut down the numbers of games played in the group stage because the attendance was just to low for most teams and travelling to 3 different cities often over a very far distance economicly wasn't worth it. Attendance in the further stages rises and less smaller clubs who don't even have a proper stadium are still in the tournament in the further stages as well. The tournament just isn't big enough yet to play a full 6 game group stages yet.

flatpicker
01-13-2012, 10:25 AM
I haven't completely ingested the info on this new setup, so I'm just trusting that what you guys say is fact.

But the way I see it... in order to win the CCL, you're gonna have to beat a top team somewhere along the line.
So does it really matter if it is earlier or later in the tournament?

Kaz
01-14-2012, 10:39 PM
I need to ask a question.. why is Panama still in Pot A over Canada

Canadian Teams in the last 4 years have produced more points in the Group Stage then Panama... 28 for Panama and 29 for Canada.

And Panama had two teams competing in 08-09. and Canada wasn't in the group stage in 09-10 and we still have more points.

I think this is actually a valid question. ya we screwed up in 09-10, but honestly if you have a country that has twice in 4 years made it to the quarters, and scored more points in 3 Competitions then a Pot A team has in 4 with 5 chances, there is something wrong.

And honestly I think that if it was Vancouver instead of Toronto in in 09-10 we would have made it to the group stage.

Also the new system is designed to favour Mexican and American teams as only the winners move on. If I understand right there are going to be 8 three team groups.
Each group will have a Pot A, Pot B and Pot C.
Teams from the same federation can't be drawn togeather (so no US teams playing US nor Mexican playing Mexican) also Each group will only include either a Mexican or American team not both.

As the Top scoring team moves on. Favouring Mexican Sides and American sides as it's usually Mexican Sides that cause the US teams issue.

But I must be missing something because How do you have 6 match days with 3 team groups? but how do you get 8 group winners from 6 groups? Unless every group gets two by weeks?

Thus an example
Group A
Mexico
Costa Rica
Belize

Group B
US
El Savador
Caribbean

Group C
Costa Rica
Mexico
Guatemala

Group D
Panama
US
Nicaragua

Group E
US
Honduras
Panama

Group F
Mexico
Canada
Caribbean

Group G
Honduras
Mexico
El Salvador

Group H
Guatemala
US
Caribbean

prizby
01-15-2012, 12:41 AM
umm there are 8 groups...not 6

as for 6 match days. lets say the three teams are A, B, and C, play each team home and away

1. A-B
2. C-A
3. B-C
4. B-A
5. A-C
6. C-B

in 3 team groups, someone is getting a bye

denime
01-15-2012, 09:37 AM
But I must be missing something because How do you have 6 match days with 3 team groups?

1 team will have a bye.



but how do you get 8 group winners from 6 groups? Unless every group gets two by weeks?
8 groups not 6

The four-year-old competition will remain a 24-club tournament, but instead of an initial knockout phase of 16 teams, all qualifiers will proceed to a main stage of eight, three-team groups, from which only the winners will advance to the quarterfinals.