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denime
12-29-2011, 08:42 AM
Mornin`





TFC TV (http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp)



The Year At A Glance (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/12/year-glance)




TFC related blogs ! (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=29582)




SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshine-girl)


_

__wowza
12-29-2011, 09:10 AM
mornin d'

STURGIS TRADED TO HOUSTON FOR 2014 SUPERDRAFT PICK

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2011/12/28/houston-acquire-midfielder-sturgis-toronto-fc

"The Houston Dynamo made their first acquisition of the offseason on Wednesday, acquiring midfielder/defender Nathan Sturgis from Toronto FC for a conditional pick in the 2014 SuperDraft, Dynamo president Chris Canetti confirmed to MLSsoccer.com..."

DangerRed
12-29-2011, 10:09 AM
Nate Sturgis is junk

I give this trade...


http://www.besoccer.com/fc-midfielder-fuad-ibrahim-celebrates-his-team-s-win-against-the-colorado-rapids-at-the-end-of-their-mls-soccer-game-in-toronto-rf_24431.jpg

One ecstatic Fuad Ibrahim picture out of five.

Kaz
12-29-2011, 11:19 AM
mornin d'

STURGIS TRADED TO HOUSTON FOR 2014 SUPERDRAFT PICK

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2011/12/28/houston-acquire-midfielder-sturgis-toronto-fc

"The Houston Dynamo made their first acquisition of the offseason on Wednesday, acquiring midfielder/defender Nathan Sturgis from Toronto FC for a conditional pick in the 2014 SuperDraft, Dynamo president Chris Canetti confirmed to MLSsoccer.com..."

That the Gods, I never understood the purpose behind this trade.

__wowza
12-29-2011, 12:05 PM
the earl of concochrane signed him for some reason, i think he thought he was managing the club full time. we traded a decent pick in a talent heavy draft.

some could see it as a good move, we got a proven MLS talent who could play mid and defense, but hindsight is a bitch. he didnt fit into our system. personally, i think winter was holding on to him for depth, but he never really fit into what we're planning.

Canary10
12-29-2011, 12:14 PM
Can anyone say the player Vancouver drafted with that pick (without looking it up)? Probably not. Sturgis didn't do badly for us. Don't think it was necessarily lack of fit in the system, more that in the end Stinson took over his spot, for less money.

__wowza
12-29-2011, 12:25 PM
Can anyone say the player Vancouver drafted with that pick (without looking it up)? Probably not. Sturgis didn't do badly for us. Don't think it was necessarily lack of fit in the system, more that in the end Stinson took over his spot, for less money.

michael nanchoff, he's only had a few games for them and has stuck mostly to the B-team. [/URL]the only reason i know that is because i looked it up when the trade was announced but before you posted that :D.

it's also a matter of who we could've had:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalil_Anibaba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Nanchoff)
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._J._Sapong

again, i understand that the SD is a crapshoot (at best) and that we got an MLS vet who could cover a few roles. it seemed to make sense at the time.

Yohan
12-29-2011, 12:28 PM
Can anyone say the player Vancouver drafted with that pick (without looking it up)? Probably not.
Michael Nanchoff :p


Sturgis didn't do badly for us. Don't think it was necessarily lack of fit in the system, more that in the end Stinson took over his spot, for less money.
Sturgis had his chances. Was adequate enough I suppose, and I think supporters wanna shit on him for being part of horrid first half of season which tainted most of the veteran (though Sturgis is only 24) players on the squad.

In the end, Sturgis was surplus DM (who can play fullback) in a loaded TFC squad at DM.

DangerRed
12-29-2011, 12:43 PM
Michael Nanchoff :p


Sturgis had his chances. Was adequate enough I suppose, and I think supporters wanna shit on him for being part of horrid first half of season which tainted most of the veteran (though Sturgis is only 24) players on the squad.

In the end, Sturgis was surplus DM (who can play fullback) in a loaded TFC squad at DM.

I don't want to shit on Sturgis (who is a poor player, make no mistake) as much as I want to shit on the club for letting its PR guy make trade decisions and acquire Sturgis even after the newest expansion team didn't want him.

Yohan
12-29-2011, 12:57 PM
I don't want to shit on Sturgis (who is a poor player, make no mistake) as much as I want to shit on the club for letting its PR guy make trade decisions and acquire Sturgis even after the newest expansion team didn't want him.
I think it's more of a 'holy shit this is a freaking good deal' than 'fuck this guy he sucks' from the Shitecaps

we wouldn't be having this bitchfest if Sturgis was acquired for a 2nd round pick (which he's about worth in MLS)

DangerRed
12-29-2011, 01:21 PM
I think it's more of a 'holy shit this is a freaking good deal' than 'fuck this guy he sucks' from the Shitecaps

we wouldn't be having this bitchfest if Sturgis was acquired for a 2nd round pick (which he's about worth in MLS)

Your and my estimations of Sturgis' playing ability differ significantly, then.

Yohan
12-29-2011, 01:29 PM
Your and my estimations of Sturgis' playing ability differ significantly, then.
we don't know how Sturgis got picked up by TFC. Vancouver could have had intention of playing Sturgis (who had a good year at Seattle in 2010), but Cochrane made Vancouver an offer that they couldn't refuse.

I don't know how closely you've followed Sturgis before 2011, but once upon a time, he was a highly rated US U20 player, former GA, and by 2011, 6 years in MLS. Injuries really hurt his development, and in some circles, he's still highly rated utility player.

DangerRed
12-29-2011, 01:34 PM
we don't know how Sturgis got picked up by TFC. Vancouver could have had intention of playing Sturgis (who had a good year at Seattle in 2010), but Cochrane made Vancouver an offer that they couldn't refuse.

I don't know how closely you've followed Sturgis before 2011, but once upon a time, he was a highly rated US U20 player, former GA, and by 2011, 6 years in MLS. Injuries really hurt his development, and in some circles, he's still highly rated utility player.

I tend not to follow players before they enter the MLS, so my perception and judgments are limited from that perspective. I can only comment on what I've seen, and what I've seen (perhaps impacted by the injuries you've mentioned) is a middling MLS midfielder, with some OK defensive aptitudes and weak athletic ability (a must-have in this league). I'm glad he's off to somewhere else.

Roogsy
12-29-2011, 01:34 PM
2012 will prove whether Sturgis is another in a long line of TFC giving away a usable player. Kinnear, unlike Winter, does not have an aversion to North American players and knows how to develop them and use them. I am willing to guess that DK will help Sturgis back to the previous path he was on of a usable MLS player.

KezmanCCCC
12-29-2011, 01:48 PM
CHILE ENOUGH FOR YA IN CANADA?: If reports out of Chile are correct, one of the Canadian MLS clubs is about to sign a new left back: Miguel Aceval. The 28-year-old is currently with Universidad de Concepcion in the Chilean first division, but he has spent the majority of his career with powerhouse Colo Colo. He debuted for Chile this fall in a friendly against Mexico. (Terra.cl - Dec. 28, 2011) (http://deportes.terra.cl/futbol/clausura/2011/ex-colo-colo-esta-cerca-de-cambiar-la-u-de-conce-por-la-mls,8d96c547c5584310VgnVCM3000009af154d0RCRD.html)

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2011/12/29/rumor-central-chilean-international-headed-canada



We need a left back.... :P

Yohan
12-29-2011, 01:49 PM
2012 will prove whether Sturgis is another in a long line of TFC giving away a usable player. Kinnear, unlike Winter, does not have an aversion to North American players and knows how to develop them and use them. I am willing to guess that DK will help Sturgis back to the previous path he was on of a usable MLS player.
TFC is stacked at DM position. Sturgis was a surplus. Hope he does well at Houston

Pookie
12-29-2011, 02:22 PM
No ill wishes here. Sturgis seemed to be able to cross effectively and was reasonably accurate off set pieces... when given the chance.

He didn't strike me as a liability defensively but certainly didn't play as if he was a stand out either.

Good luck to him.

Roogsy
12-29-2011, 02:40 PM
TFC is stacked at DM position. Sturgis was a surplus. Hope he does well at Houston

Considering that Frings will likely be used as a CB and JDG, while recovering from a horrendous first two seasons had a decent end to 2011, is an overly expensive solution at DM, I would disagree we are "stacked" at that position. Not that I think Sturgis was the answer either.

Oldtimer
12-29-2011, 02:41 PM
Sturgis seems to be best exemplified by the word "meh."

I'll be very surprised if Frings plays CB in 2012.

__wowza
12-29-2011, 02:47 PM
Considering that Frings will likely be used as a CB and JDG, while recovering from a horrendous first two seasons had a decent end to 2011, is an overly expensive solution at DM, I would disagree we are "stacked" at that position. Not that I think Sturgis was the answer either.

i hope frings isn't used as a CB. he was a general back there, that's for sure, and we can use if to plug a hole of our defense is the sieve it was this year, but he's a DM that could play CB.. not a DM that should play CB.

in the games i saw him in, he was utility at best, he didn't really wow me. oldtimers post really sums it up for me.

Darlofletch
12-29-2011, 02:57 PM
much like gargan, in the right situation, sturgis will do ok. houston may well be the right place, much like chicago seems to be the right place for gargan to do well. doesn't mean he would have been the same player for tfc, and anyone's struggles at tfc don't automatically mean they're a crap player.

avila, marosevic, johnson, all players who'd struggled elsewhere in mls that winter seemed to manage to get the best out of (albeit in a limited timeframe). it works both ways, I imagine every mls team has examples in both directions.

Yohan
12-29-2011, 03:04 PM
Considering that Frings will likely be used as a CB and JDG, while recovering from a horrendous first two seasons had a decent end to 2011, is an overly expensive solution at DM, I would disagree we are "stacked" at that position. Not that I think Sturgis was the answer either.
If Frings is played at CB, I'd be very surprised

Roogsy
12-29-2011, 03:10 PM
If Frings is played at CB, I'd be very surprised

I think that's the plan. I'd be surprised if he doesn't.

CretanBull
12-29-2011, 03:32 PM
Not only do I not want to see Frings at CB this year, I'd like him to get forward a lot more this year - his talent is wasted back there. It's a waste of DP money to play him on the backline. The MLS is a league of defense-by-committee and offense by individual talents...Frings needs to be one of those individual talents.

backbeat
12-29-2011, 03:51 PM
2012 will prove whether Sturgis is another in a long line of TFC giving away a usable player. Kinnear, unlike Winter, does not have an aversion to North American players and knows how to develop them and use them. I am willing to guess that DK will help Sturgis back to the previous path he was on of a usable MLS player.

TFC giving away players?

Sturgis has been on about 5 teams since he was drafted

and how do you get that Winter has an aversion to N.A. players when he has moved a number of young Canadians up to the team and has stated clearly that he wants Canadian talent developed?

rocker
12-29-2011, 04:05 PM
I think that's the plan. I'd be surprised if he doesn't.

Mariner said on TV late last year that he wants ,more defenders.. and has repeated that refrain this month. So I don't think Frings at CB is in the plans.

Greatest Ripoff
12-29-2011, 04:15 PM
Winter, does not have an aversion to North American players and knows how to develop them and use them.

What about Johnson, Avila, Stinson, Morgan, and De Guzman (who I would say had his best year in a TFC shirt last year under Winter.)? Hell two of those guys he promoted form the academy and by the end of the year both had been called up by the CMNT. How many other coaches in MLS developed NA players from their academy to a national team last year?

CretanBull
12-29-2011, 04:18 PM
TFC giving away players?

We have a bad track record of doing this. Trading a 1st pick for Sturgis, then trading him for a conditional pick a year later is one of many, many, many examples of very poor asset management. Cronin for allocation money, Chad Barrett for "future considerations", Carl Robinson for a 4th round pick, DeRo for Borman and Tchani, Tchani for Iro (and Griffit who was waived) etc.

Chevy
12-29-2011, 04:19 PM
What about Johnson, Avila, Stinson, Morgan, and De Guzman (who I would say had his best year in a TFC shirt last year under Winter.)? Hell two of those guys he promoted form the academy and by the end of the year both had been called up by the CMNT. How many other coaches in MLS developed NA players from their academy to a national team last year?

Don't feed the troll dude.

CretanBull
12-29-2011, 04:21 PM
Don't feed the troll dude.

Roogsy is a respected member of our group, not a troll.

backbeat
12-29-2011, 04:42 PM
We have a bad track record of doing this. Trading a 1st pick for Sturgis, then trading him for a conditional pick a year later is one of many, many, many examples of very poor asset management. Cronin for allocation money, Chad Barrett for "future considerations", Carl Robinson for a 4th round pick, DeRo for Borman and Tchani, Tchani for Iro (and Griffit who was waived) etc.

i know there are examples- i was meaning it in relation to the
Sturgis comment - i shouldn't have separated the lines - my point was that it isn't just TFC, Sturgis has been on 5 teams, or so in 6 years.

__wowza
12-29-2011, 04:56 PM
Roogsy is a respected member of our group, not a troll.

he just never seems to agree with popular opinion on the board in most cases. anyways.. at 23, your time to prove whether or not you're "usable" is drawing to an end. we've got much more at DM then where he came from.

also cretan, remember that winter didnt pick him up. winter i was willing to give benefit of the doubt to this year on account of it being his first in the MLS, but what was cochranes excuse?

djking2
12-29-2011, 04:57 PM
We have a bad track record of doing this. Trading a 1st pick for Sturgis, then trading him for a conditional pick a year later is one of many, many, many examples of very poor asset management. Cronin for allocation money, Chad Barrett for "future considerations", Carl Robinson for a 4th round pick, DeRo for Borman and Tchani, Tchani for Iro (and Griffit who was waived) etc.


In that context the Jeremy Hall deal is an example of managerial brilliance then.

rocker
12-29-2011, 05:12 PM
We have a bad track record of doing this. Trading a 1st pick for Sturgis, then trading him for a conditional pick a year later is one of many, many, many examples of very poor asset management. Cronin for allocation money, Chad Barrett for "future considerations", Carl Robinson for a 4th round pick, DeRo for Borman and Tchani, Tchani for Iro (and Griffit who was waived) etc.

Moves like that happen all the time in MLS, not just to TFC.

And you have to remember that a trade like Robbo for a 4th round pick is simply a rights trade to NYRB (and a cap space clearance) in a league where player rights are heavily controlled. To move Robbo, that's all you can get. No way will an MLS team give you anything for him, particularly considering his salary and age. But the gain comes in getting that salary off the books. Who knows, at times TFC may not even want any of the dregs of another team that get offered in return (warm bodies). Better to have the cap room and sign somebody new.

For example, the removal of Robinson from the TFC cap led to some other player(s) being signed. The benefit is not simply a fourth round pick (which is useless). If we didn't have this crazy MLS system, Robbo would never have been traded at all. Either he'd be kept around or released. and then you couldn't be able to say "ugh, all we got from NYRB was a fourth round pick?"

dantdot
12-29-2011, 05:24 PM
In other news, past accusations of the crew have come to light http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45797933/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/case-closed-columbus-crew-brought-syphilis-europe/

Waggy
12-29-2011, 05:32 PM
In other news, past accusations of the crew have come to light http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45797933/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/case-closed-columbus-crew-brought-syphilis-europe/


WIN. Saw the story, didn't connect the dots. Those filthy bastards

DOMIN8R
12-29-2011, 05:40 PM
You may not agree with Roogs but he's a passionate and thoughful supporter that is well respected.

Tough guy to argue with. That's for sure. LOL

CretanBull
12-29-2011, 06:08 PM
Moves like that happen all the time in MLS, not just to TFC.

To a degree, you're right - but creative moves can be made without squandering assets.



And you have to remember that a trade like Robbo for a 4th round pick is simply a rights trade to NYRB (and a cap space clearance) in a league where player rights are heavily controlled. To move Robbo, that's all you can get. No way will an MLS team give you anything for him, particularly considering his salary and age. But the gain comes in getting that salary off the books. Who knows, at times TFC may not even want any of the dregs of another team that get offered in return (warm bodies). Better to have the cap room and sign somebody new.

For example, the removal of Robinson from the TFC cap led to some other player(s) being signed. The benefit is not simply a fourth round pick (which is useless). If we didn't have this crazy MLS system, Robbo would never have been traded at all. Either he'd be kept around or released. and then you couldn't be able to say "ugh, all we got from NYRB was a fourth round pick?"

Let's not re-live bad times, but we were paying Robo's salary while he played for NY. His trade wasn't a soccer move designed to free up cap space, it was a political move designed to ship out outspoken leaders (the same reason Cronin was given away). Regardless of the reasons for his (their) moves the team could have - and should have - done a better job in managing it's assets.

Oldtimer
12-29-2011, 09:44 PM
Regardless of the reasons for his moves Mo could have - and should have - done a better job in managing it's assets.

FYP

The team is under (mostly) new management. Moves made by Mo or by his appointee Cochrane are not relevant to how Mariner will manage the trades or the cap. To say that "we" or "TFC" has a tendency to do something indicates continuity between Mo/Cochrane and Mariner. This I would most vehemently deny.

CretanBull
12-29-2011, 10:16 PM
FYP

The team is under (mostly) new management. Moves made by Mo or by his appointee Cochrane are not relevant to how Mariner will manage the trades or the cap. To say that "we" or "TFC" has a tendency to do something indicates continuity between Mo/Cochrane and Mariner. This I would most vehemently deny.

No one is pointing a finger at anyone in particular - just pointing out an obvious and undeniable historic trend. The continuity exist with the franchise. When I point out that the Leaf's haven't won the Cup in 50 years I'm not blaming Burke - or underminding, or discrediting what he might do - or holding him responsible for moves make by Floyd Smith, I'm just stating a fact.

As a franchise TFC haven't managed their assets very well. If you want to break that down further and assign blame to individuals, that's fine but that's not the point being made or debated.

If you want to look at Winter's role in this continuity of mis-managing assets, look at the release of Keven Aleman, the DeRo trade and the subsequent trade with Columbus. We lost the best Canadian prospect for nothing and turned the Golden Boot winning league MVP into Danleigh Borman and Andy Iro - that's good asset management?

Again though, the point being made wasn't who did what, but rather making a comment on a franchise trend.

FluSH
12-29-2011, 11:27 PM
Nate Sturgis is junk

I give this trade...


http://www.besoccer.com/fc-midfielder-fuad-ibrahim-celebrates-his-team-s-win-against-the-colorado-rapids-at-the-end-of-their-mls-soccer-game-in-toronto-rf_24431.jpg

One ecstatic Fuad Ibrahim picture out of five.

LOLL

Roogsy
12-29-2011, 11:38 PM
TFC giving away players?

Sturgis has been on about 5 teams since he was drafted

and how do you get that Winter has an aversion to N.A. players when he has moved a number of young Canadians up to the team and has stated clearly that he wants Canadian talent developed?

Winter did not move them up willingly. He was forced to because he had big gaps in the roster. The young Canadians were not his preference. He did so out of necessity. There are several posters on this board with good inside sources that know this is true. So how we can credit him for a decision he actually did not want to make but was forced on him is beyond me. Appearances are deceiving.

I know it's the popular opinion around here though.

Pookie
12-29-2011, 11:55 PM
No one is pointing a finger at anyone in particular - just pointing out an obvious and undeniable historic trend. The continuity exist with the franchise. When I point out that the Leaf's haven't won the Cup in 50 years I'm not blaming Burke - or underminding, or discrediting what he might do - or holding him responsible for moves make by Floyd Smith, I'm just stating a fact.

As a franchise TFC haven't managed their assets very well. If you want to break that down further and assign blame to individuals, that's fine but that's not the point being made or debated.

If you want to look at Winter's role in this continuity of mis-managing assets, look at the release of Keven Aleman, the DeRo trade and the subsequent trade with Columbus. We lost the best Canadian prospect for nothing and turned the Golden Boot winning league MVP into Danleigh Borman and Andy Iro - that's good asset management?

Again though, the point being made wasn't who did what, but rather making a comment on a franchise trend.

Has Aleman signed in Vancouver? Could be that he isn't an asset to be managed.

Let's not go down the DeRo road. A bigger mismanagement was the other golden boot winner in Cunningham that was run out of town by fans and management for a 3rd round pick.

While painting one side of the fence, can we paint the other side too? Winter effectively managed assets through the July transfer window and netted players like Johnson and Avila. Not to mention Frings and Koevermans. He and Mariner appear to have been successful in securing Plata's services for 3 additional years and have overseen the development in the last year of players like Morgan and Henry.

That appears to be the start of a different trend.

CretanBull
12-30-2011, 12:14 AM
Has Aleman signed in Vancouver? Could be that he isn't an asset to be managed.

Let's not go down the DeRo road. A bigger mismanagement was the other golden boot winner in Cunningham that was run out of town by fans and management for a 3rd round pick.

While painting one side of the fence, can we paint the other side too? Winter effectively managed assets through the July transfer window and netted players like Johnson and Avila. Not to mention Frings and Koevermans. He and Mariner appear to have been successful in securing Plata's services for 3 additional years and have overseen the development in the last year of players like Morgan and Henry.

That appears to be the start of a different trend.

Again, to be clear I'm very specificaly not pointing fingers at anyone in particular - just pointing out a trend that we can all agree has taken place over the last 5 years. It shouldnt be taken as an attack on Winter any more than saying "the Leafs haven't won the Cup since '67" should be taken as a criticism of Burke or what he's done and what he's doing.

ag futbol
12-30-2011, 11:52 AM
Has Aleman signed in Vancouver? Could be that he isn't an asset to be managed.

Let's not go down the DeRo road. A bigger mismanagement was the other golden boot winner in Cunningham that was run out of town by fans and management for a 3rd round pick.

While painting one side of the fence, can we paint the other side too? Winter effectively managed assets through the July transfer window and netted players like Johnson and Avila. Not to mention Frings and Koevermans. He and Mariner appear to have been successful in securing Plata's services for 3 additional years and have overseen the development in the last year of players like Morgan and Henry.

That appears to be the start of a different trend.
These are stories that are un-written so far.

For Aleman, the valid comparison isn't VWFC, it's letting him leave compared to giving him a contract. So was it worth it to put our best prospect (to date) under contract or should we have let him walk? Was it bad to set that precedent or does it just make sense when you have a prospect who excels? It is not like they come along every day. But we'll find out depending on what time of career he has and also how we handle our future prospects.

For the players you've listed that we've picked up, with the exception of Koevermans, they'll have determined their worth a lot more by the end of the season. Those guys are steady but they were falling off (or playing behind) other players in their other teams. Can they beat their opposite numbers week in and week out?

Some of those players are nice, but the totality of it is they don't seem that special compared to some of the players on better teams in this league in similar roles. So we'll be counting on stepping it up a notch.

Pookie
12-30-2011, 05:01 PM
^ everything you say is fair.

I'm simply trying to highlight that not every player that leaves TFC goes on to bigger things.

For every Jeff Cunningham type story (a player released to succeed elsewhere) there are 3 maybe 4 Ali Gerba type stories (players released to fall off the face of the earth... ).

There are also a growing number of stories of career MLS players that had arguably their best production while with the Club (eg. Alan Gordon, Nana Attakora, Maicon Santos, Carl Robinson, Adrian Cann and maybe even an argument for Ryan Johnson).

Even further, TFC has developed a number of prospects internally that appear to be on the upside of their career paths (eg. Morgan, Plata, Kocic)

It's not a complete picture to say that everyone that leaves goes on to better things and that's the trend. If anything, the majority of players leave to do exactly what they did here, nothing. A minority go on to achieve more and another minority go out and have their best years in Red.

ensco
12-30-2011, 08:38 PM
We have a bad track record of doing this. Trading a 1st pick for Sturgis, then trading him for a conditional pick a year later is one of many, many, many examples of very poor asset management. Cronin for allocation money, Chad Barrett for "future considerations", Carl Robinson for a 4th round pick, DeRo for Borman and Tchani, Tchani for Iro (and Griffit who was waived) etc.

You forgot two of the worst: Dunivant for nothing (an allocation), and Wynne for mostly nothing (LaBrocca, who in turn became useful elsewhere but was turn into Gordon, who was turned into....1/3 of Johnson). But it's all ancient history now.

brad
12-30-2011, 10:45 PM
Dunivant we should have kept, but at the time he was on a long term injury and we had Brennan in the same position. Dunivant was better, but Brennan was captain and face of the club and wasn't going anywhere. That in itself speaks volumes about what was wrong with the club at that time IMHO.

brad
12-30-2011, 10:47 PM
For Aleman, the valid comparison isn't VWFC, it's letting him leave compared to giving him a contract. So was it worth it to put our best prospect (to date) under contract or should we have let him walk? Was it bad to set that precedent or does it just make sense when you have a prospect who excels? It is not like they come along every day. But we'll find out depending on what time of career he has and also how we handle our future prospects.


Maybe it had something to due with the attitude problems that Aleman had that were reported by a well connected and well respected RPB.

ag futbol
12-31-2011, 09:56 AM
Maybe it had something to due with the attitude problems that Aleman had that were reported by a well connected and well respected RPB.
Well maybe, but that in and of itself has some leeway to deal with. There are lots of talented yet mentally troubled soccer players out there, some teams will try to make something of it to use their talents others will simply discard and say it's not worth their time.

However, keep in mind this kid with an attitude problem was asked to sign a two year commitment to the club shortly before, but balked. In my best estimation, this was just two parties who couldn't come to an agreement. Maybe Aleman's attitude decreased their want, but all said and done clearly they would have taken a committed Aleman on their academy team.

It's a tough line to walk for MLS academies. Putting 16-17 year old kids under contract probably sounds bat-shit crazy to teams that have limited resources. But, they shouldn't be naive to the idea that it's a global game and it can be hard to retain talent at all levels.



It's not a complete picture to say that everyone that leaves goes on to better things and that's the trend. If anything, the majority of players leave to do exactly what they did here, nothing. A minority go on to achieve more and another minority go out and have their best years in Red.
I don't disagree.

Oldtimer
12-31-2011, 11:33 AM
Winter did not move them up willingly. He was forced to because he had big gaps in the roster. The young Canadians were not his preference. He did so out of necessity.

You're probably right that some people here got too enthusiastic about the academy signings since they were earlier than ideal.

Those of us who are familiar with how academies work in Europe or South America saw exactly what you are saying... that the players were being rushed onto the first team because of the holes in the roster. Ideally they should have had a couple of years more in the academy to mature and develop before being faced with MLS-level play. If we could see that something like that, it's no surprise at all that Aron Winter has the same opinion as we do.

That being said, I am very impressed with how quickly our academy grads adapted to MLS and that two of them are now internationals. That shows real character on their part, and gives me optimism about their future..

Oldtimer
12-31-2011, 11:41 AM
There are lots of talented yet mentally troubled soccer players out there, some teams will try to make something of it to use their talents others will simply discard and say it's not worth their time.


I wouldn't say Aleman was "troubled," just that he was focused on Europe, and was using his place on the academy to further his future there with TFC footing the bill but getting none of the benefit. It would have been a totally different issue if he had paid for a place in say, Bryst or one of the other for-pay academies.

He must have gotten some terrible advice, because he could have waited a few years, matured, and then be sold to a Euro club by TFC. He would have had his Euro dream, and TFC would have had their expenses fairly recompensed. He could have been mentored by players familiar with Europe (Frings, Koevs, JDG) and probably had more success.

Yeoman
12-31-2011, 11:46 AM
i think what was a big problem, was the roster rules (both size and cap space) and the lack of reserve play as well
now that those have opened up a bit more, the academy will work better for us now.

ag futbol
12-31-2011, 12:51 PM
He must have gotten some terrible advice, because he could have waited a few years, matured, and then be sold to a Euro club by TFC. He would have had his Euro dream, and TFC would have had their expenses fairly recompensed. He could have been mentored by players familiar with Europe (Frings, Koevs, JDG) and probably had more success.
I don't think the advice was terrible. He's attached to a club that's playing at a higher level, getting excellent training, and if it works out for him he'll be paid a lot more than he would at TFC. Good trade IMO.

It's great that TFC paid for part of his development, but they shouldn't be naive to think that's enough to secure someone's services. It doesn't work that way here nor does it anywhere else. I'm sure Lazio would like something for losing Federico Macheda but that isn't happening either.

Now, I'm not saying this to mock TFC's handling of the situation, they may well have made the right decision. All I'm saying is they should look at the merits of putting the kid under contract if they think he's worth it... and they may have done this, who knows? You just can't rely on the moral obligation to protect you in these situations, if such a thing exists.

Roogsy
12-31-2011, 03:06 PM
From what I have heard his stand has already benefitted him. From his point of view it was the best move.

Waggy
12-31-2011, 03:18 PM
Aleman was looking out for his best interest (signing with as big a club as possible)

TFC was looking out for their best interest (not wasting valuable time, energy and training spots on a guy who was probably bolting out the door as soon as another offer came along)

TFC gambled that he would catch on in europe and not stay in north america, so they moved him for an asset while they still could. I never understood the acrimony over this. This isn't a morality issue like a relationship, it's a business transaction. Why would TFC commit any of their assets to someone who wouldn't commit to them at all at the expense of others who are begging for that same opportunity? This whole situation was a rare case when everyones primary interest was satisfied and everybody got what they wanted.

Fishnicker
12-31-2011, 03:43 PM
Dunivant we should have kept, but at the time he was on a long term injury and we had Brennan in the same position. Dunivant was better, but Brennan was captain and face of the club and wasn't going anywhere. That in itself speaks volumes about what was wrong with the club at that time IMHO.

Maybe the Dunivant continuum should look like this

2nd overall pick (Brek Shea) + part alloc.-->Mulrooney-->Goldthwaite + 14th pick (which along with Esky begat Cunningham)-->Dunivant + alloc. -->alloc.

Pretty sure the last two allocations were full, plus I believe his roster spot was needed for Vitti. No idea what the alloc. was spent on.

The part that stands out is trading our 2nd pick for Mulrooney, then 2 games later sending him off for Goldthwaite. Now no-one was sure Shea would develop like he did, but hey, everyone wears hindsight glasses with this stuff. Initially getting Dunivant and a 1st round pick Goldy was pretty good.

Remember when draft day used to be an insane, absinthe-feulled Mojo trade-athon with picks, allocation, senior intl spots, youth intl spots, players and whatever happened to be in Mojo's pockets flying around at a dizzying pace?

Canary10
01-01-2012, 11:30 AM
Regarding Roogsy's point that Winter was forced into using the academy kids. Well of course he was. You act like that's a slight against him, but no manager anywhere wants to throw 18 and 19 year olds into the first team and won't unless circumstances require. Don't think Alex Ferguson wanted to throw Fryers on the pitch either. But Winter's been on the record since day 1 that he wants the academy producing top local talent for the first team. The fact that he had to use them is totally consistent with his approach; but he had to use them sooner than he probably wanted to.

Canary10
01-01-2012, 11:40 AM
To my last post I add that Winter clearly managed their transition into the first team exceedingly well.

ag futbol
01-01-2012, 12:05 PM
Aleman was looking out for his best interest (signing with as big a club as possible)

TFC was looking out for their best interest (not wasting valuable time, energy and training spots on a guy who was probably bolting out the door as soon as another offer came along)

TFC gambled that he would catch on in europe and not stay in north america, so they moved him for an asset while they still could. I never understood the acrimony over this. This isn't a morality issue like a relationship, it's a business transaction. Why would TFC commit any of their assets to someone who wouldn't commit to them at all at the expense of others who are begging for that same opportunity? This whole situation was a rare case when everyones primary interest was satisfied and everybody got what they wanted.
This is pretty much where i stand on the whole thing, with the potential exception of the bolded sentence. Hypothetically, if Aleman was a "special talent" that could justify different treatment.

We can't get caught up in the idea of absolute equality in a competitive business. It's more like equality based on performance.