Return of Pablo Vitti. yes or no?

[Yohan]

Pablo Vitti, who played for TFC in 09 on loan from Independiente, is being heavily linked again to TFC. Want him back? Or no?

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[Brooker]

Did his quality change or was it the quality of his opposition?

:|

[Detroit_TFC]

I read the discussion in the other thread and people seem positive toward this. Is there actual substance to this rumor or is it just speculation?

[ensco]

If we're bringing guys back, based on 2005 accomplishments, and what they did in Peru.....is Mista available? Carlos Ruiz?

[Yohan]

well, Vitti played 32 games in 2010, scoring 15 goals for Universitad San Martin in Peruvian first division. he's only got 2 goals in 16 for Universitario, but this may partly be due to him not getting paid by Universitario

[Yohan]

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[TFCRegina]

Is he going to be able to deal with the physicality of this league?

I said no, for the record, wasn't able to deal with it last time. Doubt things have changed.

[denime]

I said yes,I would like to see him play in our new adopted system.We need a winger and he would be a good option,in my opinion.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

I voted yes. I saw him play in the Copa Sudamericana not too long ago. Looked not bad. Has there been some change on this front? How did we go from a line in a Peruvian newspaper report to being "heavily linked"? Remember when he got a yellow for celebrating an off-side goal. Classic TFC blooper, up there with Pozniak's missed diving header, and Carl Robinson's goal celebration, and the Andy Welsh face plant.

[Oldtimer]

He looked bad in a longball system. But so did JDG. I expect that under Winter we would see him improve even more than JDG did.

[ManUtd4ever]

If the price is reasonable, absolutely.

[Yohan]

Remember when he got a yellow for celebrating an off-side goal. Classic TFC blooper, up there with Pozniak's missed diving header, and Carl Robinson's goal celebration, and the Andy Welsh face plant.
and Tchani being ejected for celebrating a goal, Yourass being sent off for taking too long to get off the pitch... Nick Garcia in general...

[The Professor]

He looked bad in a longball system. But so did JDG. I expect that under Winter we would see him improve even more than JDG did.

My thoughts exactly.

[dantdot]

Has there been some change on this front? How did we go from a line in a Peruvian newspaper report to being "heavily linked"?

Lulz, nothing changed, just that one line and speculation about his club owing him money. Though someone can try going to the source
http://twitter.com/#!/pablovitti

[ManUtd4ever]

Lulz, nothing changed, just that one line and speculation about his club owing him money. Though someone can try going to the source
http://twitter.com/#!/pablovitti

http://www.goal.com/es-us/news/2216/...-a-canad%C3%A1 (http://www.goal.com/es-us/news/2216/mls/2011/11/22/2770183/toronto-fc-pablo-vitti-suena-para-regresar-a-canad%C3%A1)

Google translation:




Toronto FC: Pablo Vitti sounds to return to Canada

The midfielder would offer to get back the scarlet shirt.


November 23, 2011 6:15:00 am


http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifClick this bar to view the full image.http://u.goal.com/45200/45295hp2.jpg


The Toronto FC and works for the next season. The team led by Aron Winter, just open the window passes, began tracking players who could become reinforcements for the 2012 season. One of these is an old friend, Argentine Pablo Vitti.

El Rosario is currently playing for Universitario of Peru, where there has been a good step. To make matters worse, the club owes a large sum of money.

According to Depor.pe , the supply of Canadians would be "very good" and the player would be very interested in accepting it, but first want to collect the debt the club owes him, consisting of six months salary and part of its pass. Vitti, 26, rose from the lower Rosario Central and has played in Independiente, Banfield , Chernomorets of Ukraine and Universidad San Martin . In the 2009 season wore the uniform of Toronto, with whom he played 26 matches and scored two goals.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

said yes, dont think he got a proper go the first time around as he was playing in a diff style/structure and we had the wrong expectations of him, i do think he'd do well to fit in our new system with these players, i wouldnt take him for more than 200k (even then at that number id be a bit hesitant)

[ArmenJBX]

he was 280 last time, no?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

alot of that went to independiente too tho, might be different now...

[s2cazz]

I said yes,I would like to see him play in our new adopted system.We need a winger and he would be a good option,in my opinion.

^^^This

Not only that I remember 1 single moment of magic between him and JDG, just after JDG was signed that was pure football magic. I think pablo would thrive in this system. I just don't think he is worth what he was getting before (if i correctly remember it being around the $200,000 mark). The price would have to be right as well given the cap.

[Inklink]

Hahahahha, what are the chances. I really chuckled out loud reading this.

It's intriguing. I do think Winter can make more of him than last time 'round.

[dantdot]

http://www.goal.com/es-us/news/2216/...-a-canad%C3%A1 (http://www.goal.com/es-us/news/2216/mls/2011/11/22/2770183/toronto-fc-pablo-vitti-suena-para-regresar-a-canad%C3%A1)

That goal.com page is just taking quotes from the original Peruvian article. Nothing new there.

[ArmenJBX]

Pablo Vitti, your number 8 has been taken! Guess you'll wear 10 now?

[Chevy]

^^^This

Not only that I remember 1 single moment of magic between him and JDG, just after JDG was signed that was pure football magic. I think pablo would thrive in this system. I just don't think he is worth what he was getting before (if i correctly remember it being around the $200,000 mark). The price would have to be right as well given the cap.

I remember that too. It was the best 5 seconds of football we have ever played. :)

[GBV]

It's intriguing. I do think Winter can make more of him than last time 'round.

Sure would hope so.

[Suds]

Kind of indifferent on this one. Some players do excel when they play on a team very system based. That is what TFC are trying to do. When he was here before we had no real system or style to speak of.

I guess he couldn't do any worse than he did before.

[LesH]

Vitti again with TFC under Winter's system?

well, let me think...

Ummmm....

YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES!

Him with Plata plus Koevs as the poacher would be terrific upfront!!!

[Joe Kool]

As long as he comes at a good price...the potential was always there. Worst case he becomes another Zavarise that comes in here and there when the starters get really banged up. We will always have a few of those on the team. As long as he doesn't ride the pine for alot of money...then I would be upset. Mista anyone...

[MartinUtd]

I voted yes, assuming he's somewhere south of $140k

[ArmenJBX]

Mista? Really?

Let's set this story STRAIGHT.

Miguel Mista played 9 games for Toronto FC.

The first 3 games he was out of form.
The fifth game, he and Preki got into an altercation in the locker room.

The remaining games he was used sparingly, or was "injured" before being released.
Mista is the silent DP Amado Guevara. He came, Preki and him got into a fight, and he left.

I blame Preki more than Mista for the whole ordeal. Mista only came here because de Guzman talked him into it anyways. In the end of the day, he saw how bush league Preki was running things and didn't want to be here anymore.

Meanwhile, we all thought he was shit, when in reality, he had less of a chance to show what he's capable of than freaking MIKAEL YOURASSOWSKY.

AND...in that time, he scored against the toughest team we've ever played a competitive match again, Cruz Azul.

[iy12l]

imagine if tfc put johnson, avila, JDG in this peruvian team, u think they would score 15 goals as attacking midfielders? i doubt it, but this guy has changed recently and he fits in winters sytem too. im sure he will have a great season with tfc!

[Yeoman]

I remember that too. It was the best 5 seconds of football we have ever played. :)

so long as i wasn't the only one.
i still recall going 'holy shit, what just happend'
i think my head exploded
you know i think i'd be willing to give vitti another chance. think he'd do great in this system
for the record; it was either him or ricketts that was getting a name on a jersey
if he comes back? i'm going to get a vitti kit

[prizby]

no; like what we got now; don't think he fits in chemistry wise and will take him 3-4 months to get adjusted; we can't wait that long with CCL on the horizon

[Yohan]

no; like what we got now; don't think he fits in chemistry wise and will take him 3-4 months to get adjusted; we can't wait that long with CCL on the horizon

Any new signing will need time to adjust.

[prizby]

Any new signing will need time to adjust.

frings and koef fit in real quick

[nxtmike]

If we're bringing guys back, based on 2005 accomplishments, and what they did in Peru.....is Mista available? Carlos Ruiz?

Didn't Mista get booked by the cops in Miami?...and spent a night or two behind bars immediately after being waived?

[Pookie]

Vitti was one of the only players on the roster at the time that made movements off the ball. I would be interested to see what he could in Winter's system.

[Chevy]

Didn't Mista get booked by the cops in Miami?...and spent a night or two behind bars immediately after being waived?

That was Martin Saric that got busted. Mista wouldn't dare break the law, he knows he's too friggin' slow to outurn even the fattest cop.

[Yohan]

frings and koef fit in real quick

Exceptions. Most guys dont adapt that fast

[starter]

Mista > Vitti

[ag futbol]

^ Yeah you know it would be nice if we could bring in DP level players for every spot and hold them to the same expectations.

I think he Vitti option is a good one and it makes more sense now than it did before when management was just throwing shit against the wall and seeing what would stick. While Vitti reminded me that MLS is a physical league, he also reminded me how poor the marking actually is when you see someone who's good on the ball.

[BeerBaron95]

no; like what we got now; don't think he fits in chemistry wise and will take him 3-4 months to get adjusted; we can't wait that long with CCL on the horizon

Sorry this is just silly

Even if he isnt ready (should he re-sign with TFC) we still have Avila to play that role.

[Fort York Redcoat]

^^^This

Not only that I remember 1 single moment of magic between him and JDG, just after JDG was signed that was pure football magic. I think pablo would thrive in this system. I just don't think he is worth what he was getting before (if i correctly remember it being around the $200,000 mark). The price would have to be right as well given the cap.


I voted yes, assuming he's somewhere south of $140k

Sure, why not. As long as he's signed as an addition or re-enforcement in his position. He'd have to prove he could nic that starting position.

[maninb]

I voted yes, assuming he's somewhere south of $140k

Agreed...He shouldn't be signed for more than a year...If he pans out then let him get more money...

[CSO_BBTB]

Not sure maybe should have been separated from who the hell is he? Suspect it would have had more votes otherwise. He would be a better fit for Winter's system no question but something always struck me as not quite right about him in attitude terms based on body language, way teammates reacted when he actually did score etc. If that has changed for the better since the move to Peru then definitely worth a look.

[__wowza]

anyway to sign him to a trial? if he can pass the trial and meshes well with the team then i'd say give him another go.

[trane]

He has always been skilled, that should not have been the question about him. I just wonder if he would be used on the wing or the midle, as an ACM.


I think that I would prefers him in the midle distriuting to the the three forwards. and picking up a goal or two. I alway thought he coudl develop in a good type 10 player in this league.

[Ultra & Proud]

Saying Mista is better than Vitti because Mista never got a fair shot from Preki is the same as saying Gerba was better than Dichio because he also had a better pedigree at the time yet got no fair shot either.

[Carts]

I may sound like a "blind faith guy" but I trust Winter/Mariner/etc with their evaluation of talent-value-availability...

If they think he'll fit - I vote yes...

My main concern (brought up by TFC_Regina) is can he deal with the physical play in the MLS. Hacks, chops, tackles, and chirps - with little respect for flopping up here...

Maybe he has matured, grown a thicker skin and gotten tougher - if so, then I think he could be a valuable player... If not, it would be an epic fail...

Carts...

[ochos]

I'm pretty surprised at the amount of YES's I'm seeing from the group here...

- Yes, Vitti was one of our more skilled players, looked comfortable on the ball, and did provide a fantastic 5-second highlight we all remember.

- Yes, Vitti didn't get a proper chance in the old system (not to be confused with playing time), and yes he would do better in the current system.

But seriously, even though I liked him as a player back then, surely we can get someone better now? He just wasn't strong enough in the final 3rd and did not ruffle the feathers of defenders. Even with a 4-3-3 passing setup, I still don't think he has the quality to hit the back of the net that often. And as someone pointed out, isn't Avila a better ACM if were looking at having him in a deeper role?

I wouldn't be overly upset if we brought him back, but truthfully I'm aiming higher these days with the level of talent we can bring in, and I say we go for someone quicker, with better finishing.

[Ultra & Proud]

Vitti coming in would mean him at AM. He is better than Avila and although finishing is not essential for an effective AM, he has proven in his couple years in Peru and in the Copa that he has improved in that area. For non-DP money, he would be great.

Aiming higher means essentially DP money or back to MoJo $300,000+ contracts which we can't afford if we expect a CB upgrade.

[Canary10]

Our biggest hole is on the right wing. We're not bad in the AM department. Don't know why we wouldn't concentrate limited money on the big gaps: right wing, and two central defenders.

[Ageroo]

Our biggest hole is on the right wing. We're not bad in the AM department. Don't know why we wouldn't concentrate limited money on the big gaps: right wing, and two central defenders.

Hole in what sense.....I say Plata to start there and Soolsma as cover. Johnson over on the left wing....

Other than Avila I don't think we have any capable AMs...

[Yohan]

Hole in what sense.....I say Plata to start there and Soolsma as cover. Johnson over on the left wing....

Other than Avila I don't think we have any capable AMs...
And Avila is decent, but he shouldn't be starter yet

[T-boy]

Definitely no from me.

As a rule football teams should never bring back an ex player - rarely does it work out.

And ever MORE than that, a team should NEVER bring back a player who was a failure the first time around! That's just silly!

Even with a different management team and a different system, Vitti is far too lightweight and is too "pretty" for the MLS.

Lets stop groping at the past, and move onto the future.

[Canary10]

Hole in what sense.....I say Plata to start there and Soolsma as cover. Johnson over on the left wing....

Other than Avila I don't think we have any capable AMs...

Plata's been playing on the left wing. Winter's relying on his ability to cut inside inside off the left onto his right foot. We don't have anyone with his ability to unlock defenses and take people on on the right. Imagine if we had a Break Shea type there?

Johnson has also played the AM position quite well toward the end of the season. I'd have him rotate through AM and the wing. Avila would be the number one at AM.

[ManUtd4ever]

Winter and Mariner have stated that they want 2 capable players for every position on the pitch. At the moment, Avila is our only legitimate AM, which is an essential role within the various formations that Winter prefers to utilize. Considering the holes on the backline that need to be filled, a skilled AM like Vitti that can also fill in on the wings would be ideal if the price is reasonable, in the range of 150-200K.

[Yohan]

Plata's been playing on the left wing. Winter's relying on his ability to cut inside inside off the left onto his right foot. We don't have anyone with his ability to unlock defenses and take people on on the right. Imagine if we had a Break Shea type there?

Johnson has also played the AM position quite well toward the end of the season. I'd have him rotate through AM and the wing. Avila would be the number one at AM.
Johnson is not a good AM. he's played wide forward position well enough, but he just don't have the creative football brain or the skill to be a good AM

[Canary10]

Johnson is not a good AM. he's played wide forward position well enough, but he just don't have the creative football brain or the skill to be a good AM

How many assists did he have toward the end of the season?

Trying to find this on TFC's site. I remember him being involved in quite a few of Koevs goals.

We also have Marosevic at AM. Not an everday player but has shown some good flashes. Just think we're threadbare on the wing more than AM.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

id say we need players in both (but feel we lack in AM more, Johnson can play CF and plays mostly on the wing, i wouldnt put him behind the striker)

[Canary10]

If Frings isn't playing defence, we'll also have two very capable ball distributers who'll be playing more upfield than they have in Frings and JDG.

[Yohan]

How many assists did he have toward the end of the season?

Trying to find this on TFC's site. I remember him being involved in quite a few of Koevs goals.

We also have Marosevic at AM. Not an everday player but has shown some good flashes. Just think we're threadbare on the wing more than AM.
Johnson had 3 goals and 2 assists in league play. And he hardly played at AM in league play IIRC

[Ultra & Proud]

Just think we're threadbare on the wing more than AM.

Plata, Johnson, Lindsay, Soolsma, & Yourass for now.

That's two wing starters with a decent cover for each and a gonad thrown in for good measure. Prefer to upgrade the gonad but other than that it doesn't appear 'threadbare' to me.

Threadbare to me is having Avila as the starting Am with Cordon as cover.

[Roogsy]

Plata, Johnson, Lindsay, Soolsma, & Yourass for now.

That's two wing starters with a decent cover for each and a gonad thrown in for good measure. Prefer to upgrade the gonad but other than that it doesn't appear 'threadbare' to me.

Threadbare to me is having Avila as the starting Am with Cordon as cover.


Agreed. For the first time ever, we actually have wingers. That's a good start I think.

I am not sure adding to them is necessary. The AM and CB spots are our greatest need.

[ginkster88]

Why are we saying Vitti will shore up the wing when he'll clearly slot in at AM above JDG and Frings?

I can't imagine anything more exciting given the prospects on the horizon than

-----Vitti------

-JDG----Frings-

linking up with

Plata--DKV--Johnson

[Canary10]

Nice to have a discussion about players and strategy as opposed to how much the coach does or doesn't suck, etc.

This is my view. We have no starting right winger. We have Johnson, who's played there a bit, played a bit of AM and played a bit of striker. He's been decent at all, but not standout at any. We have Soolsma, who's done well but quite simply isn't that explosive player like Plata. If we had a real starter there we'd be very dangerous. And the 4-3-3 really relies a lot on wing play. The AM in a 4-3-3 is really a linkup player. Honestly, Frings or JDG can play that very well in this league. Avila's looked good there too. If Marosevic can get some consistency he's not bad there either.

I understand what you guys are saying in that we don't have that one clear guy in that position, but we enough to do it fairly well. Get a Break Shea on the right and we're a really tough team to defend.

[Canary10]

If Lindsay is healthy and can play like he did two years ago, maybe that changes everything. Big IF though.

[Yohan]

Frings and JDG are not AMs. it takes them too far away from their natural game, which is being a ball winner

[Greatest Ripoff]

Plata, Johnson, Lindsay, Soolsma, & Yourass for now.

That's two wing starters with a decent cover for each and a gonad thrown in for good measure. Prefer to upgrade the gonad but other than that it doesn't appear 'threadbare' to me.

Threadbare to me is having Avila as the starting Am with Cordon as cover.

I'd also like to see Makubuya get more time on the wing this year. Was his only appearance last year his late sub in Vancouver?

[Ultra & Proud]

Nice to have a discussion about players and strategy as opposed to how much the coach does or doesn't suck, etc.

This is my view. We have no starting right winger. We have Johnson, who's played there a bit, played a bit of AM and played a bit of striker. He's been decent at all, but not standout at any. We have Soolsma, who's done well but quite simply isn't that explosive player like Plata. If we had a real starter there we'd be very dangerous. And the 4-3-3 really relies a lot on wing play. The AM in a 4-3-3 is really a linkup player. Honestly, Frings or JDG can play that very well in this league. Avila's looked good there too. If Marosevic can get some consistency he's not bad there either.

I understand what you guys are saying in that we don't have that one clear guy in that position, but we enough to do it fairly well. Get a Break Shea on the right and we're a really tough team to defend.

Okay, who would/could we get that would for sure be better than Johnson, not be a DP, and not cost over $300k thus crippling our ability to snag a CB upgrade? Add to that a player willing to come here who is out of contract.

[Blizzard]

Didn't Mista get booked by the cops in Miami?...and spent a night or two behind bars immediately after being waived?

That was Saric and charges were dropped. I believe he's in Paraguay now.

[Blizzard]

Why are we saying Vitti will shore up the wing when he'll clearly slot in at AM above JDG and Frings?

I can't imagine anything more exciting given the prospects on the horizon than

-----Vitti------

-JDG----Frings-

linking up with

Plata--DKV--Johnson

That is exactly what I'd like to see.

[Jeffro]

I'm not going to vote in the poll, since the options are so polar, but I would give him a shot for $150k or less. I always thought he was lost in our longball 'system' back then, and he may flourish in our system with more passing and players who have better movement off the ball.

[Juanito]

I always thought Vitti was a talented player. He had no one to play with. Him, DeRo, and Chad did not have good chemistry with one another and he seemed removed from the play. When he decided to do it himself, he showed some quality.

I would LOVE to have him back. I think he would do well in our new system.

[T-boy]

I think we all agree that we DO need a cover AM that maybe can also play on the wing as cover.

I just don't want Vitti back, at all. He wasn't any good first time around, to me he won't be any good second time around!

Winter needs a cover AM, but Vitti is NOT the answer here, end of story.

[Jeffro]

Maybe you're missing the correlation between good players being shite at TFC and TFC being shite for 5 years. Why have so many players been terrible here and gone on to do very well in other places? Why have so many players coming in with a high pedigree done so poorly here in the past?

[ag futbol]

See the thing is, depending on how we indent our forwards I think we are short out wide. Plata is fine. Johnston only works for me if he's not playing off a target man like you see in the first orientation below. Otherwise he just doesn't provide the width needed width IMO. I'd want someone a little more mercurial out wide.

FW--------------FW
--------CF----------

FW-----Target----FW


I was thinking of a Mauro Rosales type.. I just checked and he earns 42k a year.. how is that possible? that absolutely blows my mind. Certainly leaves the possibility we can find cheap talent somewhere.

[NBS]

Winter needs a cover AM, but Vitti is NOT the answer here, end of story.

Well, I guess that ends all debate then.

The real bottom line is this: If Winter and Mariner feel Vitti would work in their system, they bring him back. Simple as that. I have confidence in their ability to evaluate it and would support them.

[Yohan]

I was thinking of a Mauro Rosales type.. I just checked and he earns 42k a year.. how is that possible? that absolutely blows my mind. Certainly leaves the possibility we can find cheap talent somewhere.
I think Seattle FO did a smart thing and told Rosales that you get a 1 yr contract. If you perform, you get a raise. Now this is just speculation, but Rosales played 3 years in River Plate and didn't play much (partially due to being injury prone)

[ensco]

Well, I guess that ends all debate then.

The real bottom line is this: If Winter and Mariner feel Vitti would work in their system, they bring him back. Simple as that. I have confidence in their ability to evaluate it and would support them.

Actually, if this is for real, what it would say to me is that WinterMariner are having serious problems identifying players, and are relying more than you would have hoped on Cochrane (or the MLS office or whomever).

[pekduck]

Actually, if this is for real, what it would say to me is that WinterMariner are having serious problems identifying players, and are relying more than you would have hoped on Cochrane (or the MLS office or whomever).
^
how can that be conclusive

the best i can say, that it is with in the realm of possibilities, but may or may not be proved until after the fact...

[Brooker]

Actually, if this is for real, what it would say to me is that WinterMariner are having serious problems identifying players, and are relying more than you would have hoped on Cochrane (or the MLS office or whomever).

or they're just humoring him.

honestly, I wouldn't read that heavily into something like this.

[ensco]

^
how can that be conclusive

the best i can say, that it is with in the realm of possibilities, but may or may not be proved until after the fact...

We agree. I said, if it's for real. I don't actually believe it.

[ginkster88]

Actually, if this is for real, what it would say to me is that WinterMariner are having serious problems identifying players, and are relying more than you would have hoped on Cochrane (or the MLS office or whomever).

Yeah, they really missed the boat on Plata, Johnson, Avila, Marisovic and Koevermans. Not to mention Eckersley.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Actually, if this is for real, what it would say to me is that WinterMariner are having serious problems identifying players, and are relying more than you would have hoped on Cochrane (or the MLS office or whomever).

we can agree to disagree on this, im not 100% certain that Winter and Mariner will do an amazing job but so far after the second half of the seasons acquisitions and their performance i feel alot more confident they will do a good job of identifying the players that they need and that will/perform

[Ossington Mental Youth]

maybe im misreading what youve written

[pekduck]

We agree. I said, if it's for real. I don't actually believe it.

somewhat..

i meant.. IF Vitti is signed (which is to be determined)
then we still have the inconclusiveness of it may either be
A.
As you speculated, they are incompetent in identifying right resource
B.
They've done the due diligence and Vitti passed criteria (and other people didn't take offer)

so I wouldn't know if they are incompetent or competent until Vitti is signed and he played a season. :D

Oh, Fridays...

[ginkster88]

somewhat..

i meant.. IF Vitti is signed (which is to be determined)
then we still have the inconclusiveness of it may either be
A.
As you speculated, they are incompetent in identifying right resource
B.
They've done the due diligence and Vitti passed criteria (and other people didn't take offer)

so I wouldn't know if they are incompetent or competent until Vitti is signed and he played a season. :D

Oh, Fridays...

Like I posted, they've got a good track record of competency since the second half of the season.

Of the players released, none were acquired in the second half.

If they are interested in Vitti, I'm interested in finding out why.

[pekduck]

Like I posted, they've got a good track record of competency since the second half of the season.

Of the players released, none were acquired in the second half.

If they are interested in Vitti, I'm interested in finding out why.

of course, i was discussing with ensco on his proposition that IF Vitti THEN Winter/Mariner incompetent. I don't support that, I say the most conservative or skeptical view ought to be 'inconclusive until Vitti signed and after he played one season'

[ArmenJBX]

The possibility that Vitti is using the threat of returning to Canada in order to recover wages has not been discussed?

He's a commodity they'll want to keep over in Peru - if he threatens to leave for Canada, they'll have to pay up to keep him. Vitti could be using Toronto as a bluff/bargaining chip for unpaid wages to be paid.

[dantdot]

The possibility that Vitti is using the threat of returning to Canada in order to recover wages has not been discussed?


Could be. He just got an offer from a club in Chile though. http://www.libero.pe/pablo-vitti-podria-emigrar-la-universidad-catolica-de-chile-2011-11-25 I don't think he'd come here but who knows.

[T-boy]

Well, I guess that ends all debate then.

The real bottom line is this: If Winter and Mariner feel Vitti would work in their system, they bring him back. Simple as that. I have confidence in their ability to evaluate it and would support them.

I just wouldn't be impressed at all in the new management bringing in a player that didn't have the attributes to do well in the MLS before. It would be like Man Utd bringing Diego Forlan back - he MAY have done well since leaving United, and united MAY have a different team now that he can play with, but bringing a player who wasn't that popular before, and wasn't succesful before, is never a great idea!

Plus, we are talking about 200k PLUS wages for the guy! That's a lot of money to bring a player who wasn't successful in the team before!

For me, there are much better option that area already in the MLS, who we could definitely trade. There's no need for Winter to gamble on a player who wasn't a success here before! I'm pretty sure Winter knows this!

If Vitti did come back, he would have to do a hell of a lot to change my opinion of him since the last time he was here!

[Keegan]

If there was no salary cap of course we'd all say "what the hell, sign him!"

But there is, so you can't think like this is your european club team. Vitti isn't fit for this league, he was one of the worst offensive players on a team that couldn't score without De Rosario. Next... we're better off putting Avila in that AMC spot

[TFCRegina]

If there was no salary cap of course we'd all say "what the hell, sign him!"

But there is, so you can't think like this is your european club team. Vitti isn't fit for this league, he was one of the worst offensive players on a team that couldn't score without De Rosario. Next... we're better off putting Avila in that AMC spot

Agree Keegan.

Twice Vitti has ended up in physical leagues and failed to perform. He went to the Ukraine and played poorly there, he came to MLS and performed poorly here. Lots of people liked his movement on and off the ball, yet it rarely produced anything.

I have serious doubts that third time's the charm for Pablo. He's suited to more technical leagues than this and he's suited to leagues where the play is less rough.

Unlike Plata, he has been unable to adjust to the physicality and I would say no on that alone.

[ensco]

of course, i was discussing with ensco on his proposition that IF Vitti THEN Winter/Mariner incompetent. I don't support that, I say the most conservative or skeptical view ought to be 'inconclusive until Vitti signed and after he played one season'

Listen, anything is possible. I can't prove a negative proposition, that is correct. But I stand by my statement. It wouldn't be a good sign about our talent identification process, for me, if Vitti is presented as an important component for next year.

The record of WinterMariner on trades is mixed for me (I will declare it a positive if Avila is signed at a decent number). The record on DPs is excellent. But those bullets are gone now.

What we're waiting to see is a big move on non-DP signings. That's what WinterMariner have that others don't. Relationships in world football. These signings are how they're going to move the needle (or not). If you don't really rate Soolsma, which I don't, they have done nothing in this regard yet (same for Ecks and Plata, they don't count until we have them under contract)

If the salary is low enough, OK. But count me seriously underimpressed if an underachieving washout is presented as part of the answer to the question "we scoured the world and this is what we found"

[Kaz]

If there was no salary cap of course we'd all say "what the hell, sign him!"

But there is, so you can't think like this is your european club team. Vitti isn't fit for this league, he was one of the worst offensive players on a team that couldn't score without De Rosario. Next... we're better off putting Avila in that AMC spot


Why? did we see Vitti play a proper AMC? Did we see him play with players that new how to play with his skill set? did we see him play with Wingers that could preform?

This is a situation that I liked him, I wanted him to do well, we almost all remember his name, and if the coaching staff say hey come to training came lets see what you can do with this system, and then say ok you'll work. Then ya if the price is right then lets sign him.

Really he played with Long Ball players, with Dero and Guevara in the center. There is a reason that the 4 highest assists come from Center Mids and Defenders, from his season with us.

In this case I'd like to see him given a chance, if Winter wants to give him one. I think Plata would have underperformed with the 2009 play style and management too

[pekduck]

Listen, anything is possible. I can't prove a negative proposition, that is correct. But I stand by my statement. It wouldn't be a good sign about our talent identification process, for me, if Vitti is presented as an important component for next year.

The record of WinterMariner on trades is mixed for me (I will declare it a positive if Avila is signed at a decent number). The record on DPs is excellent. But those bullets are gone now.

What we're waiting to see is a big move on non-DP signings. That's what WinterMariner have that others don't. Relationships in world football. These signings are how they're going to move the needle (or not). If you don't really rate Soolsma, which I don't, they have done nothing in this regard yet (same for Ecks and Plata, they don't count until we have them under contract)

If the salary is low enough, OK. But count me seriously underimpressed if an underachieving washout is presented as part of the answer to the question "we scoured the world and this is what we found"

haha, i don't disagree with your elaboration at all, just taken aback at the implied bias (or at least perceived by me) from the original post, that's all :D

to be honest, i don't mind if they get Vitti if with all due processes and evaluation, he's the best of the available pool, but i wouldn't be ecstatic either

to be optimistic, i surely hope they get some real impact signings during off season

to be realistic, after 5 years of mojo, i'll turn a blind eye and have no expectation or energy to speculate until a signing took place

5pm... 4 more hours to go at work... :(

[Shakes McQueen]

Listen, anything is possible. I can't prove a negative proposition, that is correct. But I stand by my statement. It wouldn't be a good sign about our talent identification process, for me, if Vitti is presented as an important component for next year.

The record of WinterMariner on trades is mixed for me (I will declare it a positive if Avila is signed at a decent number). The record on DPs is excellent. But those bullets are gone now.

What we're waiting to see is a big move on non-DP signings. That's what WinterMariner have that others don't. Relationships in world football. These signings are how they're going to move the needle (or not). If you don't really rate Soolsma, which I don't, they have done nothing in this regard yet (same for Ecks and Plata, they don't count until we have them under contract)

If the salary is low enough, OK. But count me seriously underimpressed if an underachieving washout is presented as part of the answer to the question "we scoured the world and this is what we found"

Good post. I agree.

I'm not opposed to seeing how Vitti would perform under the new philosophy at the club, and with new teammates, but if all we can manage to "scout" is bringing back old guys who didn't set the world on fire their first time here, I'm unimpressed.

Plus, as Roogsy and others have mentioned - our pressing needs lie elsewhere right now. So yeah, at the right number I'd be okay with giving him a shot, but that's about the extent of my unbridled enthusiasm.

- Scott

[Canary10]

I agree with Ensco. Winter's made some good splashes so far, but it's going to be those lower-profile players that fill needs that will decide if he's got a real talent for evaluation (and ultimately if we can make a real run in this league).

Couple of things I want to add: One, I've heard that Bouchiba is actually real quality. I've never seen him play, but does anyone really know?

Two, why has Sportsnet's John Molinaro not investigated this Vitti rumour with the club?!!!

[Shakes McQueen]

One thing worth mentioning - and I think Winter mentioned it at the town hall (?) - was when he spoke about seeing players he thought would be useful to him, only to facepalm when someone told him the player used to be a TFC player. Perhaps Vitti was one of the players he had in mind when he said this.

- Scott

[Canary10]

One thing worth mentioning - and I think Winter mentioned it at the town hall (?) - was when he spoke about seeing players he thought would be useful to him, only to facepalm when someone told him the player used to be a TFC player. Perhaps Vitti was one of the players he had in mind when he said this.

- Scott

yeah he said it at mine. He was definitely referring to MLS players. Actually, I recorded the whole town hall on my blackberry's digital recorder. Wonder if I could post that somehow?

[Ajax TFC]

I've heard that Bouchiba is actually real quality. I've never seen him play, but does anyone really know?


Winter does. He played with him (as well as Koevermans) back in 02,

[Keegan]

If Vitti will take a 80k deal, sure bring him in. But anyone who watched him with us knows he isn't good enough/fit for the league and don't give me the "it was the system" or "it was the players", he created NOTHING individually all season, he had more than enough chances to impress. Guevara and De Rosario and even BARRETT didn't seem to need to blame the system or players. If he wants to earn 250k he needs to be a 250k player and he isn't. I don't think people realize how good you need to be in this league to be worth that... using examples people will know, Will Johnson for instance earns 225k, Andre Hainault 150k, Jakovic 200k. Hainault had the same amount of playoff goals as Vitti did regular season.. as a right back.

[ensco]

One thing worth mentioning - and I think Winter mentioned it at the town hall (?) - was when he spoke about seeing players he thought would be useful to him, only to facepalm when someone told him the player used to be a TFC player. Perhaps Vitti was one of the players he had in mind when he said this.

- Scott

I think the player was Cronin. I wasn't there, but I read it here. It really struck me. How depressing.

[pekduck]

I think the player was Cronin. I wasn't there, but I read it here. It really struck me. How depressing.

I'd think Cronin is the case too. Facepalm moment for sure.

[Auzzy]

I'd think Cronin is the case too. Facepalm moment for sure.

Cronin was one example. From my town hall, I definitely got the feeling there were other former players about which they had similar thoughts.

[jloome]

There's no need for Winter to gamble on a player who wasn't a success here before!

Again, people keep making a point and you're just not responding to it. There's nothing healthy about intransigence in a debate.

It's a different system, one designed to rein in individualism and to allow skill players to flourish wide and in the hole. As people have noted, former TFC failures have flourished in other systems.

Why wouldn't Vitti fit this system better?

[prizby]

Exceptions. Most guys dont adapt that fast

Ryan Johnson and Eric Avila did pretty good too

[jloome]

I vote yes. Here's why

-- Prior to arriving at TFC, Pablo Vitti was at one time one of the top youth prospects on the planet. He was starting on the U21 team ahead of Messi, and was starting at Rosario in the Argentine premier division at 19.

He went to the 2005 u-20 worlds, and flamed out, losing his starting spot to Messi. Press back in Argentina nicknamed him "El Muerte," the dead, and it stuck.

From then on, he had the touch of death. He moved to independiente and had (I think) eight goals playing in the hole, but his confidence was notably shot, and he was loaned out twice, frist to a team in the Ukraine, where within a few games he basically said the living conditions there were brutal and was benched, and then TFC, where he scored on his first chance for the team, only to have it called back by a crappy MLS ref, despite clearly positive replays.

So the curse continued. You could see it in the way he played after that. Even though he was sometimes playing directly up top in a 442, he didn't want to go anywhere near the box. On the few occasions he did, he dished the ball 9 times out of 10. The few times he did take shots were usually from distance, when there seemed to be few other options. I once saw him dribble around SEVEN defenders, be within two feet of the goal line ... and try to dish the ball. Serious FEAR of failure.

In other words, he was a world-class argentine youth player who's ego was too large to handle the bruising it took from the whole "El Muerte" fiasco.

Whether he's learned to toughen the hell up or not is the debatable question. I believe it may be irrelevant, however: if he's smart enough to work with the system, he has even better ball skills than Plata. Playing either as a wide forward or in the hole, instead of as a striker, he would be very, very effective, because there's no pressure on him to be a primary goalscorer.

Conversely, on his first round at TFC, Mo actually went public in Ives Galarcep's column before he even got here and proclaimed him the answer to our offensive woes. But he wouldn't shoot, and the best hole player in teh league couldn't get the other also rans we had to score. Just ask DeRo.

I think it would be a very astute signing. I don't think his downside is considerable, as long as they keep his salary in the mid to low 200s. The upside is potentially huge.

[ManUtd4ever]

Listen, anything is possible. I can't prove a negative proposition, that is correct. But I stand by my statement. It wouldn't be a good sign about our talent identification process, for me, if Vitti is presented as an important component for next year.

The record of WinterMariner on trades is mixed for me (I will declare it a positive if Avila is signed at a decent number). The record on DPs is excellent. But those bullets are gone now.

What we're waiting to see is a big move on non-DP signings. That's what WinterMariner have that others don't. Relationships in world football. These signings are how they're going to move the needle (or not). If you don't really rate Soolsma, which I don't, they have done nothing in this regard yet (same for Ecks and Plata, they don't count until we have them under contract)

If the salary is low enough, OK. But count me seriously underimpressed if an underachieving washout is presented as part of the answer to the question "we scoured the world and this is what we found"

I can understand your point of view. Keep in mind though, Vitti would hypothetically represent just one of several player acquisitions that will be made this off season. Therefore, the true barometer by which we can judge Winter and Mariner's abilities to identify non DP talent outside of MLS will be based on the collective performance of all the players signed this off season.

Perhaps the initial recommendation to look at Vitti was made internally by Cochrane, Dichio, or Brennan, based on the feeling that Vitti would integrate much more effectively with the current roster and tactical system.

If management signs Vitti, I don't think that would be an indictment of their scouting ability, it would just mean that they were sufficiently impressed with a player that was recommended internally by colleagues that were familiar with his abilities.

[ManUtd4ever]

I vote yes. Here's why

-- Prior to arriving at TFC, Pablo Vitti was at one time one of the top youth prospects on the planet. He was starting on the U21 team ahead of Messi, and was starting at Rosario in the Argentine premier division at 19.

He went to the 2005 u-20 worlds, and flamed out, losing his starting spot to Messi. Press back in Argentina nicknamed him "El Muerte," the dead, and it stuck.

From then on, he had the touch of death. He moved to independiente and had (I think) eight goals playing in the hole, but his confidence was notably shot, and he was loaned out twice, frist to a team in the Ukraine, where within a few games he basically said the living conditions there were brutal and was benched, and then TFC, where he scored on his first chance for the team, only to have it called back by a crappy MLS ref, despite clearly positive replays.

So the curse continued. You could see it in the way he played after that. Even though he was sometimes playing directly up top in a 442, he didn't want to go anywhere near the box. On the few occasions he did, he dished the ball 9 times out of 10. The few times he did take shots were usually from distance, when there seemed to be few other options. I once saw him dribble around SEVEN defenders, be within two feet of the goal line ... and try to dish the ball. Serious FEAR of failure.

In other words, he was a world-class argentine youth player who's ego was too large to handle the bruising it took from the whole "El Muerte" fiasco.

Whether he's learned to toughen the hell up or not is the debatable question. I believe it may be irrelevant, however: if he's smart enough to work with the system, he has even better ball skills than Plata. Playing either as a wide forward or in the hole, instead of as a striker, he would be very, very effective, because there's no pressure on him to be a primary goalscorer.

Conversely, on his first round at TFC, Mo actually went public in Ives Galarcep's column before he even got here and proclaimed him the answer to our offensive woes. But he wouldn't shoot, and the best hole player in teh league couldn't get the other also rans we had to score. Just ask DeRo.

I think it would be a very astute signing. I don't think his downside is considerable, as long as they keep his salary in the mid to low 200s. The upside is potentially huge.

Great post.

[prizby]

I vote yes. Here's why

-- Prior to arriving at TFC, Pablo Vitti was at one time one of the top youth prospects on the planet. He was starting on the U21 team ahead of Messi, and was starting at Rosario in the Argentine premier division at 19.

He went to the 2005 u-20 worlds, and flamed out, losing his starting spot to Messi. Press back in Argentina nicknamed him "El Muerte," the dead, and it stuck.

From then on, he had the touch of death. He moved to independiente and had (I think) eight goals playing in the hole, but his confidence was notably shot, and he was loaned out twice, frist to a team in the Ukraine, where within a few games he basically said the living conditions there were brutal and was benched, and then TFC, where he scored on his first chance for the team, only to have it called back by a crappy MLS ref, despite clearly positive replays.

So the curse continued. You could see it in the way he played after that. Even though he was sometimes playing directly up top in a 442, he didn't want to go anywhere near the box. On the few occasions he did, he dished the ball 9 times out of 10. The few times he did take shots were usually from distance, when there seemed to be few other options. I once saw him dribble around SEVEN defenders, be within two feet of the goal line ... and try to dish the ball. Serious FEAR of failure.

In other words, he was a world-class argentine youth player who's ego was too large to handle the bruising it took from the whole "El Muerte" fiasco.

Whether he's learned to toughen the hell up or not is the debatable question. I believe it may be irrelevant, however: if he's smart enough to work with the system, he has even better ball skills than Plata. Playing either as a wide forward or in the hole, instead of as a striker, he would be very, very effective, because there's no pressure on him to be a primary goalscorer.

Conversely, on his first round at TFC, Mo actually went public in Ives Galarcep's column before he even got here and proclaimed him the answer to our offensive woes. But he wouldn't shoot, and the best hole player in teh league couldn't get the other also rans we had to score. Just ask DeRo.

I think it would be a very astute signing. I don't think his downside is considerable, as long as they keep his salary in the mid to low 200s. The upside is potentially huge.

i think mista was scoring goals in 2004/2005...

[Fort York Redcoat]

It wouldn't be a good sign about our talent identification process, for me, if Vitti is presented as an important component for next year.

If the salary is low enough, OK. But count me seriously underimpressed if an underachieving washout is presented as part of the answer to the question "we scoured the world and this is what we found"

I'd agree that Vitti and Winter would be taking on far more pressure to succeed and achieve more than last time for less compensation. I'd prefer going with an unknown potential vs one that we've seen before but there you have it.

[jazzy]

It's all up to the main man Mr. Winter! If he thought it would be beneficial then no problem.

[jloome]

i think mista was scoring goals in 2004/2005...

That doesn't address anything in the post. The post had nothing to do with Pablo Vitti being a scorer and talks quite clearly about the issue of offensive production.

When someone takes the time to post thoughtfully, it would be appreciated if you read it before commenting.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

i dont know that id ever expect Vitti to be a huge component of being successful next year but i think he'll contribute positively (or can contribute positively)

[ensco]

Vitti would hypothetically represent just one of several player acquisitions that will be made this off season. Therefore, the true barometer by which we can judge Winter and Mariner's abilities to identify non DP talent outside of MLS will be based on the collective performance of all the players signed this off season.

This is of course true. As another for instance, for all we know, one of Ecks or Plata could suck next year, it happens.

They have to make 5-6 meaningful signings. I hope 2 of them are Ecks and Plata. They probably have about a million dollars to spend. The correct way to judge them in the market, is on how they spend the million. Not on how any one player does.

[brad]

Maybe they aren't looking at Vitti as a "failed" ex TFC player, maybe they are looking at it as signing one of the best players in what sounds to be a good quality South American league.

Also jloome raises a good point about Vitti be down on confidence when he was with us the first time. This time around he'd be coming from a much better place.

I'm all for bringing back. The first time around I thought he had the potential to be a very good player in the right system.

[ensco]

^ I talked to Vitti (and Marco Velez) at the airport once. i know a few words of spanish (buenos dias, dos cervezas por favor...the basics). Velez was kind of the translator on the road, it was clear. Vitti spoke zero english. Vitti was friendly I thought, but really anxious. He just seemed very far out of his comfort zone. I remember the Dero posse sitting a few yards away (Ricketts, Johann Smith, Nana) and all those guys were so relaxed. The contrast was huge.

[JuliquE]

Haven't voted, either.. but I would certainly support this move, should management deem it sound.

People have been turning a nose up to signing former players who didn't perform well, here. From what I've been hearing, there are a great many players around the league that Winter has eyed at one point or another.. only to be told that they previously played for TFC.

Someone has already pointed out the correlation between players doing poorly with us and either doing well afterwards or having come in with a respectable track record. Based on this alone, I think one mustn't weigh too much on the fact that any player wasn't a great fit under any previous TFC regimes. In fact, someone returning to do well would go a long way to substantiate the mantra of developing our system of play (4-3-3) and may even slightly improve our reputation amongst players.. from both the desire in a player wanting to return (indicating it can't be all bad), as well as the evidence that we're run differently (players flourishing, rather than floundering, when they get here).

[Detroit_TFC]

^ good points.

[19Barrett19]

Here is a rough translation

The Argentine midfielder Pablo Vitti just received an offer from the Catholic University of Chile to enlist in their ranks, after the good reviews of mapocho Christian Alvarez for his step Universitario de Deportes .

According to Libero , former San Martin de Porres not want to proceed further in the list of Ate Vitarte, so the idea of showing his talent in the former club of José Guillermo del Solar seduces him.

Therefore, the gaucho would speak with the president in July Pacheco to pay off outstanding debts and leave the country.



Mas Info: http://actualidad.azumare.com/universidad-catolica-de-chile-pretende-a-pablo-vitti#ixzz1eqBfgRYP

[Pookie]

jloome - I took the time to read your post and agree with everything except what a "frist" is ;)

I would argue with you but I too voted yes. Vitti had technical skill and I do think he would do well with Winter's system.

[Waggy]

OOooooohhh Jloome going in! I agree with all that, but I don't know about mid 200k for Vitti. That seems like a lot of money spent at a spot we already have players at. I really like(d) Vitti. Loved his touch, his vision. He saw things on the pitch that no-one else would see and you could see the frustration that his teammates weren't on his wavelength. And the winter system is CLEARLY more suited to him. But for 250k we could get a pretty good CB. Or 2 backups. I don't want Frings playing back line long term, if we can spend 250k on a cb which moves Frings to DM, that's like getting 2 players for 1 signing and greatly shore up the team's weakness and depth. With Vitti we just get a new toy to play with, so to speak. If we can find a way economically to make a Vitti signing work, I'm all for it. If not... I'd rather have the 250k and the international slot.

[Yohan]

Tfc has one am and thats avila.

[19Barrett19]

OOooooohhh Jloome going in! I agree with all that, but I don't know about mid 200k for Vitti. That seems like a lot of money spent at a spot we already have players at. I really like(d) Vitti. Loved his touch, his vision. He saw things on the pitch that no-one else would see and you could see the frustration that his teammates weren't on his wavelength. And the winter system is CLEARLY more suited to him. But for 250k we could get a pretty good CB. Or 2 backups. I don't want Frings playing back line long term, if we can spend 250k on a cb which moves Frings to DM, that's like getting 2 players for 1 signing and greatly shore up the team's weakness and depth. With Vitti we just get a new toy to play with, so to speak. If we can find a way economically to make a Vitti signing work, I'm all for it. If not... I'd rather have the 250k and the international slot.


I don't have the numbers infront of me but i am pretty sure that TFC is not paying Chad Barrett's or DeRo's salaries next season, or at least part of it. I think it give our club a little more money to play with.

[ElvistheEvilScotsman]

Visions of how many sitters this guy missed come to mind. If we sign him then I guess I can expect Lombardo to sign a few days later.

This doesnt give me a lot of faith in our scouting system if we move past our previous failures.

[sashavukelich]

I don't have the numbers infront of me but i am pretty sure that TFC is not paying Chad Barrett's or DeRo's salaries next season, or at least part of it. I think it give our club a little more money to play with.

as far as i understand it, this is correct.

[trane]

That doesn't address anything in the post. The post had nothing to do with Pablo Vitti being a scorer and talks quite clearly about the issue of offensive production.

When someone takes the time to post thoughtfully, it would be appreciated if you read it before commenting.

It is frustrating that after five years, guys around here still judge players on goals alone.

As I posted before, I think he would be a great ACM/SS/10 player, were he does not need to score to contribute to the team. I would not like him on the wing, because in our system you would want the wings to take chances, and I agree with you he is too gun shy.

[SKB]

Pablo had good ball skills, good first touch and passing, and very comfortable with the ball in traffic. However, not a good finisher. Lot's of chances but I believe he only got one goal a header, which was a bit of a floater. Also not sure but I don't think he had much speed. Not sure he is what we are looking for.

[J .]

Wow people have short memories. How many sitters did this guy miss? How many games was he totally MIA?

People have quite the forgetful memory and blame a ton on Preki for the players doing almost nothing. He was supposed to be the one helpin DeRo score, remember? He was the one who when Barrett went down (along with the season lets not forget) who did absolutely zero.

Wow.

I really want some of this kool aid.

[brad]

^^ We are looking for an attacking midfielder/playmaker. That players main job is to create chances for others, not to be a goal scorer themselves. It is nice for that player to chip in with some goals, but that is secondary.

That I'd why Vitti's lack of prowess in front of goal when he was here is irrelevant. Scoring is not his job.

[Kaz]

Wow people have short memories. How many sitters did this guy miss? How many games was he totally MIA?

People have quite the forgetful memory and blame a ton on Preki for the players doing almost nothing. He was supposed to be the one helpin DeRo score, remember? He was the one who when Barrett went down (along with the season lets not forget) who did absolutely zero.

Wow.

I really want some of this kool aid.

Wait I can blame Preki for Vitti? That's awesome, Vitti played a year before Preki became coach... can we blame him for Gerba too? how about Cunningham...

[J .]

^^ We are looking for an attacking midfielder/playmaker. That players main job is to create chances for others, not to be a goal scorer themselves. It is nice for that player to chip in with some goals, but that is secondary.

That I'd why Vitti's lack of prowess in front of goal when he was here is irrelevant. Scoring is not his job.


In winters system you need your AM to score goals. He is replacing the forward role. He needs to distribute and contribute.

That is why we couldnt win so many games this year, a lack of contributions from that role.

[J .]

Again, people keep making a point and you're just not responding to it. There's nothing healthy about intransigence in a debate.

It's a different system, one designed to rein in individualism and to allow skill players to flourish wide and in the hole. As people have noted, former TFC failures have flourished in other systems.

Why wouldn't Vitti fit this system better?

Are you saying Winters system is designed to reign in indiviualism?

Or saying it was Prekis?

[denime]

Wow people have short memories. How many sitters did this guy miss? How many games was he totally MIA?

People have quite the forgetful memory and blame a ton on Preki for the players doing almost nothing. He was supposed to be the one helpin DeRo score, remember? He was the one who when Barrett went down (along with the season lets not forget) who did absolutely zero.

Wow.

I really want some of this kool aid.


Vitti never played under Preki.


Speaking of forgetful memory :facepalm:

[denime]

In winters system you need your AM to score goals. He is replacing the forward role. He needs to distribute and contribute.

That is why we couldnt win so many games this year, a lack of contributions from that role.

J. I'm not sure about #10 being a team scorer.

In 4-3-3 system you have #8 and # 10 playing as inside midfielders and they are taking over so called #10 roles depending on whose side is the ball.They have to feed attackers with good passes/trough balls/combination play with #7,#9,#11.They have free motion into free space behind attackers,as a "trailers" to take a shots if set up by #9.

So called #10 is not a forward and finisher in 4-3-3 point back or point front system.

And let's face it we did have #10 players before(Guevara,DeRo),but no one to finish and that was the main reason why we did not succeed.

If Winter/Mariner decide to bring him back I'm fine with that,like someone before mention it there are many TFC player who succeeded with other teams,becosue of the system they play,LaBroca in LAC is perfect example.

[Canary10]

Denime is right. The AM in a 4-3-3 is a linkup player and a distributor, not a goalscorer. A lot of play come through the wings. That's why we need a right winger of Plata's quality more than anything.

[T-boy]

Again, people keep making a point and you're just not responding to it. There's nothing healthy about intransigence in a debate.

It's a different system, one designed to rein in individualism and to allow skill players to flourish wide and in the hole. As people have noted, former TFC failures have flourished in other systems.

Why wouldn't Vitti fit this system better?

Ooooh big words might confuse me eh?! :p

I think somebody put it best a little earlier in the thread....we've had several players at TFC over the years that have ALL played in bad teams, but all impressed. O'Brien season one, Guevara, DeRo, Dichio even, Wynne. These were all players who played on BAD TFC teams, but played well, and were all crowd favourites, even tho they were in bad teams. Do we really think that Guevara liked playing in a long ball team?....definitely no! Did that team really play to his attributes? Also no. BUT, he played well, and he was a real favourite!

Vitti also played on a bad long ball team, but he didn't impress, and scored 2 goals all season.

I agree that some players have left TFC and done well elsewhere (Buddle, best example). But I would not be impressed if TFC brought a player back to the club who was a failure first time around. It's not like Vitti is the ONLY option we have! So, why should Winter gamble on a player who was not a sucess first time around, when there are other options that are a MUCH less of a gamble?!

I DO keep answering the argument, and have done so several times in this thread!

[jloome]

OOooooohhh Jloome going in! I agree with all that, but I don't know about mid 200k for Vitti. That seems like a lot of money spent at a spot we already have players at. I really like(d) Vitti. Loved his touch, his vision. He saw things on the pitch that no-one else would see and you could see the frustration that his teammates weren't on his wavelength. And the winter system is CLEARLY more suited to him. But for 250k we could get a pretty good CB. Or 2 backups. I don't want Frings playing back line long term, if we can spend 250k on a cb which moves Frings to DM, that's like getting 2 players for 1 signing and greatly shore up the team's weakness and depth. With Vitti we just get a new toy to play with, so to speak. If we can find a way economically to make a Vitti signing work, I'm all for it. If not... I'd rather have the 250k and the international slot.

Good point on the money. I'm largely going on his last time here, which was (I think) 280k and 315K total compensation. I'd rather somethign in the 180-220 range if they had to, or a back-end deal that's low on the first year to make him prove himself.

[jloome]

Are you saying Winters system is designed to reign in indiviualism?

Or saying it was Prekis?

Both, but Preki's was designed to reign in creativity as well (to compensate for lack of ability in MLS generally) while Winter's is designed to limit individuality while maximizing creativity.

They're two different measures. Individuality is how they work in the system. Creativity is how they move on the ball. If, in Winter's system, a creative player attacks a hole in the opposing defense, there are a series of countermoves his teammates are supposed to make to compensate and keep shape. But that initial creative expression is still allowed.

Preki just played a block shape, and tried to maintain it, then have the odd one-on-on battle up front create a chance. It had little chance of anything but middling success unless you're the team using that also goes all season without losing a major goal scorer.

[Nodoubtguy]

my view is this.....If Winter thinks he's good enough for the current TFC roster, I'm good with him being back.

[Dv23]

I wanted him back then, he failed to deliver. I'd take him as a sub, but unless he's a different player than he was, and he's prepared to take a huge price cut, I don't think it will work.

What is the latest source that has propagated this rumour anyways?

[Blizzard]

I wanted him back then, he failed to deliver. I'd take him as a sub, but unless he's a different player than he was, and he's prepared to take a huge price cut, I don't think it will work.


He may or may not be a different player but the very fact that TFC is a different team is IMO the most important factor that would make Vitti a good fit here.

[T-boy]

He may or may not be a different player but the very fact that TFC is a different team is IMO the most important factor that would make Vitti a good fit here.

The problem I have with that argument is two things:

TFC may be different, but the opposition and the league is not. The problem with Vitti first time around was not that his skills were bad, but that he was brushed off the ball in good position way too easily over and over again. The league was far too phyiscal for the guy unfortunately. Even if TFC has a new squad and new style and manangement, the fact that Vitti found the physicality of the league diffciult won't have changed.

Second, the main issue with Vitti first time around was his final ball and finishing were terrible. Vitti often would take on 3 or 4 players, look amazing dribbling the ball, and then his final product was nothing....the ball was shot wide, or he would cross the ball out of play, or merely lose the ball to the 4th or 5th player he was trying to dribble past.

Vitti's success at TFC first time around, to me, was kind of like Ricketts. Both players had good touch and footballing skills, but niehter of them had any final product. And that wasn't down to the team he was playing with, that was down to the players inability to pick out a decent final ball or a decent final product. All the amazing ball skills and dribbling in the world don't mean that there is a final product.

It's like watching those guys who do the ball skills outside Gate One on matchdays, the ones who can do t-ups and juggle the ball all day long without breaking a sweat. Having those skills doesn't necesarily equate to a good footballer. Vitti was like that - he was all skill, dribbling, taking on 2, 3, and 4 players, then losing the ball, and the effort into the dribble came to nothing.

Even WITH a better team now and a different system, those two issues would not have changed, unfortunately. (unless Vitti is a vastly improved and different players now, but personally I doubt he would have changed that dramatically?)

[Kaz]

Vitti had a 50% shot on goal ratio (48% iirc) so his shots weren't more often then not wide.

He was playing on the wings, with no one there, or would have to cross the ball across the field.

These are things a CAM would not normally be asked to do, and with three forwards up front would have someone to distribute the ball to.

When Vitti was here we were playing a 4-3-dero-2. This has two forwards and DeRo down the center. That means you have two guys trying to get in the middle a guy that could be anywhere, a DM and someone on the other side of the pitch. Which makes it much harder to do something with the ball. Particularly as often times no one ran up to help him and he was left alone to either break free on his own, cross or shoot.

In a 4-3-3 you have a 3 forwards, 2 of which on the wings, and 2 wing backs to join the attack. and at least one DM playing further up. (ideally) (as I understand it I haven't seen too much of this system in working order yet) This would give Vitti at least 2 if not 3 people working for position for him to pass and leave more men marking rather then trying to check Vitti.

We see this with Plata, in MLS play Plata has a harder time with the physical play but is making a difference because of the formation and system. Plata would not have had the season he did under Carver or Cummins, and would have looked almost exactly like Vitti.

Vitti now would look more like Plata, and would have a good chance at having the same impact.

This really comes down to if Winter looks at Vitti and says it is pity about last time but I like him I think he'll do well. Then you either trust him or your don't and if he says he's a good player but not the right fit, then you trust him or you don't.

[trane]

The problem I have with that argument is two things:

TFC may be different, but the opposition and the league is not. The problem with Vitti first time around was not that his skills were bad, but that he was brushed off the ball in good position way too easily over and over again. The league was far too phyiscal for the guy unfortunately. Even if TFC has a new squad and new style and manangement, the fact that Vitti found the physicality of the league diffciult won't have changed.

Second, the main issue with Vitti first time around was his final ball and finishing were terrible. Vitti often would take on 3 or 4 players, look amazing dribbling the ball, and then his final product was nothing....the ball was shot wide, or he would cross the ball out of play, or merely lose the ball to the 4th or 5th player he was trying to dribble past.

Vitti's success at TFC first time around, to me, was kind of like Ricketts. Both players had good touch and footballing skills, but niehter of them had any final product. And that wasn't down to the team he was playing with, that was down to the players inability to pick out a decent final ball or a decent final product. All the amazing ball skills and dribbling in the world don't mean that there is a final product.

It's like watching those guys who do the ball skills outside Gate One on matchdays, the ones who can do t-ups and juggle the ball all day long without breaking a sweat. Having those skills doesn't necesarily equate to a good footballer. Vitti was like that - he was all skill, dribbling, taking on 2, 3, and 4 players, then losing the ball, and the effort into the dribble came to nothing.

Even WITH a better team now and a different system, those two issues would not have changed, unfortunately. (unless Vitti is a vastly improved and different players now, but personally I doubt he would have changed that dramatically?)

I do not remember Vitti being muscled of the ball, in fact I remember him being physical and strong on the ball. Further his skills and touch are well ahead of Barrett.

[Yohan]

I do not remember Vitti being muscled of the ball, in fact I remember him being physical and strong on the ball. Further his skills and touch are well ahead of Barrett.
Vitti's first touch and technique is probably ahead of 90% of MLS, maybe even more

[T-boy]

Vitti's first touch and technique is probably ahead of 90% of MLS, maybe even more

As I said, those ball juggling guys probably have a better first touch than most of the TFC squad, but does that make them suited to the MLS?

Barrett may have had some fitness (endurance) issues, but he was far more rugged than Vitti, that's why I always rated him a lot higher in the MLS.

[Yohan]

As I said, those ball juggling guys probably have a better first touch than most of the TFC squad, but does that make them suited to the MLS?

Barrett may have had some fitness (endurance) issues, but he was far more rugged than Vitti, that's why I always rated him a lot higher in the MLS.
Barrett has a good fitness, compared to most MLS players. it's just he doesn't know how to manage his effort, so he exhausts himself by running himself into ground. though he seemed to have learned how to manage his stamina in recent years.

you want players with good first touch regardless of what style you play, but it's more important in possession based game. Vitti's problem was that he was playing in a style not suitable for TFC, and he was suffering from lack of confidence from lack of first team football

[T-boy]

We're never all going to agree on Vitti.

If, and that's a bit IF, he does come back, some people are going to be saying "I told you so" either if he's a success or not!

I think this is all a moot point anyways if you think about the Plata and Eckersley situation. Can TFC even squeeze in Plata, Ecks, AND Vitti on the sort of money all of them would want?! I guess this all comes to the cap space we have, which I am complately lost as to how much we have right now!

If anybody can work out what space we have, given that we have 3 DP's?!?!?! This is the big question this off season!

[Canary10]

Barrett has a good fitness, compared to most MLS players. it's just he doesn't know how to manage his effort, so he exhausts himself by running himself into ground. though he seemed to have learned how to manage his stamina in recent years.

you want players with good first touch regardless of what style you play, but it's more important in possession based game. Vitti's problem was that he was playing in a style not suitable for TFC, and he was suffering from lack of confidence from lack of first team football

Totally agree. A good first touch is a massive advantage in this league. Everyone talks about how "physical" the MLS is compared to Europe. But the main reason is physicality isn't a real advantage in Europe. If you're playing against players who bring the ball down and have laid it back off or have blown past you in half a second, no amount of physical play can stop it. In Europe speed comes from ball movement, not the players so much.

Not a fan of bringing Vitti back personally because I only remember really hating him when he was here. But don't think physical play should be the basis for deciding on him if he really does have a good first touch.

[trane]

^ Physicality is a part of the game everywere. The MLS only seems more physical because its lack of skill. Watch Barca v AC Milan, Milan was more physical then any MLS team. Smaller t teams like Barca use passing to create space and avoid physical play, teams with skill keep shape and force them to play in close quaters ussing physical play slow them down. Some leages are more physical some less, but physical play is a part of football.

[T-boy]

Just for the sake of a video, cos I enjoyed it(!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf1WzJDT6Vo

This is how I remember Vitti. Great body movement, touch past the keeper....totally missed the target! I remember him doing this so many times. It was weird, at the time everybody was having a go at Barrett for missing chances, but Vitti was definitely just as bad, if not worse. I remember at the start of the season most of section 113 were all behind Vitti and awed by his dribbling skills, but by half way through the season most hated him.

I don't know, maybe my memory of Vitti is just different from a lot of yours. I'm not intransigent, just that I remember Vitti being a bad player! To me he's up there with Robert, Welsh, and Lombardo! Ok, he's not as bad as Robert, at least Vitti tried!

[T-boy]

P.S and yes, I DID just go there...I did compare Vitti to Lombardo! Lombardo was fast, but that never made him an MLS player (or any player, come to that!). Vitti has skills, equally doesn't make him an MLS player.

(yikes, its like saying GW Bush was like Hitler, or something - what a comparison, I'll say so myself!!!!! :p ).

[Yohan]

Just for the sake of a video, cos I enjoyed it(!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf1WzJDT6Vo

This is how I remember Vitti. Great body movement, touch past the keeper....totally missed the target! I remember him doing this so many times. It was weird, at the time everybody was having a go at Barrett for missing chances, but Vitti was definitely just as bad, if not worse. I remember at the start of the season most of section 113 were all behind Vitti and awed by his dribbling skills, but by half way through the season most hated him.

I don't know, maybe my memory of Vitti is just different from a lot of yours. I'm not intransigent, just that I remember Vitti being a bad player! To me he's up there with Robert, Welsh, and Lombardo! Ok, he's not as bad as Robert, at least Vitti tried!
difference between your POV and mine is that I take into account Vitti's circumstance at the time, plus what he has done since his days TFC, and assess Vitti's skill sets under Winter's system.

not saying your POV is wrong, because once bitten twice shy is true enough...

[Canary10]

P.S and yes, I DID just go there...I did compare Vitti to Lombardo! Lombardo was fast, but that never made him an MLS player (or any player, come to that!). Vitti has skills, equally doesn't make him an MLS player.

(yikes, its like saying GW Bush was like Hitler, or something - what a comparison, I'll say so myself!!!!! :p ).

Ha!! Vitti and Lombardo were my two most hated players that year...I put them in the same boat too.

[Canary10]

^ Physicality is a part of the game everywere. The MLS only seems more physical because its lack of skill. Watch Barca v AC Milan, Milan was more physical then any MLS team. Smaller t teams like Barca use passing to create space and avoid physical play, teams with skill keep shape and force them to play in close quaters ussing physical play slow them down. Some leages are more physical some less, but physical play is a part of football.

I agree totally. Anyone who says Stoke for example isn't physical needs to give their head a shake.

But, yeah, good teams move the ball around so quickly having a physical team isn't so much of an advantage. If we could ever really play Winter's style I think we'd tear this league apart.

[Yohan]

Ha!! Vitti and Lombardo were my two most hated players that year...I put them in the same boat too.
Lombardo played in 08. Vitti played in 09. Still. that's mean, comparing vitti to Lombardo ;)

[T-boy]

Lombardo played in 08. Vitti played in 09. Still. that's mean, comparing vitti to Lombardo ;)

It is a little, isn't it?! :D

(can you tell its December and I'm bored without TFC.....come on March, where are you?!).

[brad]

If anybody can work out what space we have, given that we have 3 DP's?!?!?! This is the big question this off season!

I'd love to know this, but I think it's pretty much an exercise in futility due mainly to allocation money which we know nothing about, as well as the fact that there is always the possibility that we may be paying part of a salary that was traded away, or vice versa.

[KGH]

I'd love to know this, but I think it's pretty much an exercise in futility due mainly to allocation money which we know nothing about, as well as the fact that there is always the possibility that we may be paying part of a salary that was traded away, or vice versa.

I ran the #'s.

Assuming ecks and plata are kept at the same amount as 2011 and that there are no major jumps in salary we currently have about $200k before allocation.

That's also assuming we're not still paying any current roster players salary and that everyone currently on roster returns and including the most recent Hall pickup.

[Canary10]

Lombardo played in 08. Vitti played in 09. Still. that's mean, comparing vitti to Lombardo ;)

At a certain point it all blends into one....

[T-boy]

I ran the #'s.

Assuming ecks and plata are kept at the same amount as 2011 and that there are no major jumps in salary we currently have about $200k before allocation.

That's also assuming we're not still paying any current roster players salary and that everyone currently on roster returns and including the most recent Hall pickup.

That's tight! And we need a quality CB, and cover on the wings and AM.

[KGH]

That's tight! And we need a quality CB, and cover on the wings and AM.

That's why I think Cann and Peri are gone. The big wild card is allocation...

[ArmenJBX]

1.8 million to spend on 22~ players

[KGH]

1.8 million to spend on 22~ players

Nope. Last years rules but most of it still applies:

I. MLS ROSTER COMPOSITION

A Major League Soccer club’s first team roster is comprised of up to 30 players. All 30 players are eligible for selection to each 18-player game-day squad during the regular season and playoffs.

Salary & Budget:

Players occupying roster spots 1-20 count against the club’s 2011 salary budget of $2,675,000, and are referred to collectively as the club’s Salary Budget Players.
Roster spots 19 and 20 are not required to be filled, and teams may spread their salary budget across only 18 Salary Budget Players. A minimum salary budget charge will be imputed against a team’s salary budget for each unfilled senior roster slot below 18.
The maximum budget charge for a single player is $335,000.*
A Designated Player counts $335,000 against the club’s salary budget, unless the player joins his club in the middle of the season, in which case his budget charge will be $167,500.
* See section entitled Allocation Money below, under Player Acquisition Mechanisms, for details on buying down a player’s budget charge.

Players occupying roster spots 21-30 do not count against the club’s salary budget, and are referred to collectively as the club’s Off-Budget Players (maximum of 10 per team).
All Generation adidas players are Off-Budget players.
Players occupying roster spots 1-24 will earn at least $42,000 in 2011.
Players occupying roster spots 25-30 will earn at least $32,600 in 2011.
Clubs may elect to leave up to two of these roster spots (25-30) vacant and use $35,000 for each empty spot as allocation money.
Clubs may sign up to two Home Grown Players to Generation adidas contracts.
Age Designations:

Any player making $32,600 must be under the age 25 (does not turn 25 or older in 2011).

[Canary10]

That's why I think Cann and Peri are gone. The big wild card is allocation...

Think you may be right. Actually, any new CBs coming in will probably replace Cann and/or Williams depending on how many. I think we need two realistically.

[Canary10]

Kind of understand why we protected Harden and Iro a little better now. For the money, they'll be decent enough back up.

[T-boy]

I don't think anybody will agree with me BUT....

Anybody think that our answer at CB next season is Frings? He was definitely the best CB we had last season. I know that takes him out of midfield - but I think he is definitely quality at CB and controls the game very well back there. Having a spine of Frings, DeGuz, and Koev is very solid. Then we wouldn't have to go and fork out money for a CB, and would free up money for other areas of the field we need cover (like AM and the wing).

[KGH]

Our current top 10 for the cap:

1 - Frings - $335
2 - Koeve - $335
3 - JDG. - $335
4 - Frei - - $155
5 - Avila - $133
6 - Cann - $133
7 - Johns - $132
8 - Peri. - $129
9 - Hall. - $125
10 - Bouchiba -$92

We have just over $2.0M in these 10 players.

[moralis]

Hi KGH,

Frings and Kovermans were bought in the summer so there salary cap hit is $167.500.

Frings - $167.500 and Kovermans - $167.500

[T-boy]

Hi KGH,

Frings and Kovermans were bought in the summer so there salary cap hit is $167.500.

Frings - $167.500 and Kovermans - $167.500

Last season yes, but this coming season they will fill their full 335k quota for a full season.

[KGH]

Hi KGH,

Frings and Kovermans were bought in the summer so there salary cap hit is $167.500.

Frings - $167.500 and Kovermans - $167.500

Against last years cap yes. This year we eat the full amount. The $167k amount is half of the full amount because they were only available for half of the year.

[Canary10]

^For the upcoming year it'll be $335 though, no?

[Canary10]

I really can't see Cann staying based on that. It doesn't make sense to take a punt that he'll have recovered from injury - even at his best, I don't rate him as a starter.

Clearly we need to make really good use of those two first round draft picks as well. If we get two GAs out them, that would help.

[KGH]

^For the upcoming year it'll be $335 though, no?

Correct

[KGH]

I really can't see Cann staying based on that. It doesn't make sense to take a punt that he'll have recovered from injury - even at his best, I don't rate him as a starter.

Clearly we need to make really good use of those two first round draft picks as well. If we get two GAs out them, that would help.

It's also why I think Frei might be shipped. Milos is at $42k and the extra $100k goes along way up front.

[denime]

Our current top 10 for the cap:

1 - Frings - $335
2 - Koeve - $335
3 - JDG. - $335
4 - Frei - - $155
5 - Avila - $133
6 - Cann - $133
7 - Johns - $132
8 - Peri. - $129
9 - Hall. - $125
10 - Bouchiba -$92

We have just over $2.0M in these 10 players.

Avila is free agent and to resign him will probably cost more,Frei is being shoped and probably gone,but in general numbers are ok,someone tweeted earlier today that TFC has around 500K free kap space,not sure if this number includes DeRo and Barett salaries.

[Canary10]

Yeah, can't see Frei staying. Allocation money would even be really helpful. The Hall pickup seems really odd in terms of money for value. Unless Dallas is paying for some.

[KGH]

Avila is free agent and to resign him will probably cost more,Frei is being shoped and probably gone,but in general numbers are ok,someone tweeted earlier today that TFC has around 500K free kap space,not sure if this number includes DeRo and Barett salaries.

I have A feeling we're going to get a bag of balls for Frei because of his salary. The Ricketts deal kinda set the bar.

[Yohan]

I have A feeling we're going to get a bag of balls for Frei because of his salary. The Ricketts deal kinda set the bar.
it'd be stupid to trade Frei for bag of balls. at least 3 MLS teams are looking for a starting keeper right now

[T-boy]

it'd be stupid to trade Frei for bag of balls. at least 3 MLS teams are looking for a starting keeper right now

Agreed. Ricketts is about ten years older than Frei. Frei is a huge asset for the MLS at his young age (for a goalkeeper). Just imagine if he got a Switzerland callup, I'm sure European teams would be swarming to sign him, and that would mean some good money for whoever Frei plays for at the time!

Craig Gordon was bought for 9million pounds at 24 years old. I'm not saying that Frei is as good as Gordon was at that age, but Frei is a VERY good shot stopper and a big asset to the MLS.

[brad]

Avila is free agent and to resign him will probably cost more,Frei is being shoped and probably gone,but in general numbers are ok,someone tweeted earlier today that TFC has around 500K free kap space,not sure if this number includes DeRo and Barett salaries.

I'm pretty sure that we were eating DeRo and Barretts salaries for this year only and they are off the books.

[brad]

That's why I think Cann and Peri are gone. The big wild card is allocation...

We should have allocation money - we meet two of the 4 criteria below. Also, who knows what else we have or will acquire from trades.

Allocation Money
Allocation money is a resource available to clubs in addition to their respective salary budgets.
A club may receive allocation money for:


failure to qualify for the MLS Cup Playoffs;
the transfer of a player to a club outside of MLS for value;
expansion status;
qualification for the CONCACAF Champions League;

Each year the MLS Competition Committee determines the allocation amount to be made available to each club. Allocation money can be traded by clubs.

Also, if we are that close to the cap, trading someone like Frei for allocation money could make sense, if that allocation money allows us to bring in a good CB.

[Kaz]

I'm pretty sure that we were eating DeRo and Barretts salaries for this year only and they are off the books.

Keep in Mind that both Plata and Eks salary would most likely double, thus eating that, while we still need a Solid back line leader, and a strong CAM. Avila should be the number 2 man in that position.

So we will be working with the same cap space we had last year most likely..

Trading Frei and Sturgis for a decent CB and Allocation would be the way to go I'm thinking to solve that. To bring in a new starting CAM and CB leader.

[brad]

Keep in Mind that both Plata and Eks salary would most likely double, thus eating that, while we still need a Solid back line leader, and a strong CAM. Avila should be the number 2 man in that position.

So we will be working with the same cap space we had last year most likely..

Trading Frei and Sturgis for a decent CB and Allocation would be the way to go I'm thinking to solve that. To bring in a new starting CAM and CB leader.

That assumes that we will keep Cann and/or Williams on the same salaries, along with Harden and Iro and add extra CB's to the mix.

Also, we will have extra allocation money we did not have last year due to CL qualification.

[T-boy]

I think I'd be happy with Cann and Williams leaving. That then leaves Iro and Harden as backup, and Henry as the up and coming backup. Losing Cann and Williams free's up a large chunk of change. Add Frei to that, and you are talking a nice amount of money to find one or two CB's and a AM.

[Yohan]

That assumes that we will keep Cann and/or Williams on the same salaries, along with Harden and Iro and add extra CB's to the mix.

Also, we will have extra allocation money we did not have last year due to CL qualification.
rumours say CCL allocation money is like 100k only or something

I think TFC is going to find a CB in the upcoming superdraft...

[Oldtimer]

rumours say CCL allocation money is like 100k only or something

I think TFC is going to find a CB in the upcoming superdraft...

That would only be a "partial allocation." I'm not sure that rumour is true, that kind of money wouldn't be enough to have much effect. I would have expected a full allocation (approx $220k), but the rumours could indeed be right.

TFC also gets a full allocation (a/k/a/ the "you suck" allocation) for missing the playoffs, so that adds in total $330k (if the CCL is a partial allocation). You could get 2 decent players or one really good one for that kind of cash.

[brad]

rumours say CCL allocation money is like 100k only or something

I think TFC is going to find a CB in the upcoming superdraft...

As a starter or a backup? Risky move to grab a starting CB for this team from the superdraft.

[T-boy]

So, what we are saying is....cos we SUCKED so much last year in the league, AND we got through to the CCL Quarters, we get lots more money to play with?!

I'd say Aron Winter is a genius! :D

[Yohan]

As a starter or a backup? Risky move to grab a starting CB for this team from the superdraft.
TBH, I don't know. But with a 4th pick, TFC should be able to grab someone decent, and may turn into a starter within two years.

Though you never know whether you get an Omar Gonzalez or an Ike Opara in a draft. Frigging crap shoot this is

[rocker]

are there any good central defenders coming up in the academy?

[19Barrett19]

If i was TFC I would draft this CB in the draft .... form what i am reading i think toronto has the 3rd and 4th picks in the first round. I could be wrong.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=austin%20berry&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uoflsports.com%2Fsports%2Fm-soccer%2Fmtt%2Fberry_austin00.html&ei=8wjYTtehN4Pr0gHv3IDYDQ&usg=AFQjCNFONY69-AZRgYIg1nTyemEv7EH-5Q

[Canary10]

If i was TFC I would draft this CB in the draft .... form what i am reading i think toronto has the 3rd and 4th picks in the first round. I could be wrong.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=austin%20berry&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uoflsports.com%2Fsports%2Fm-soccer%2Fmtt%2Fberry_austin00.html&ei=8wjYTtehN4Pr0gHv3IDYDQ&usg=AFQjCNFONY69-AZRgYIg1nTyemEv7EH-5Q

Uh, this link takes me to a basketball player. TFC has the 4th and 12th pick.

[jojoflow]

Mista? Really?

Let's set this story STRAIGHT.

Miguel Mista played 9 games for Toronto FC.

The first 3 games he was out of form.
The fifth game, he and Preki got into an altercation in the locker room.

The remaining games he was used sparingly, or was "injured" before being released.
Mista is the silent DP Amado Guevara. He came, Preki and him got into a fight, and he left.

I blame Preki more than Mista for the whole ordeal. Mista only came here because de Guzman talked him into it anyways. In the end of the day, he saw how bush league Preki was running things and didn't want to be here anymore.

Meanwhile, we all thought he was shit, when in reality, he had less of a chance to show what he's capable of than freaking MIKAEL YOURASSOWSKY.

AND...in that time, he scored against the toughest team we've ever played a competitive match again, Cruz Azul.

oh my lord are you kidding me Mista sucked he was on the ground half of the time yelling at refs to call a foul and most of the time he dove. Mista was playing for tfc for a cheque thats all he was not strong enough or cared enough to be a good MLS player.

[jojoflow]

nooooo to Vitti hell no

Do people really think he can play in MLS players are to strong and fast he got man handed when he was here last time and he will again. He does not work hard enough like Plata did this year. On paper he looks like he would be beter in tis system but he never ran at guys and rarly looked dangerous.

[jojoflow]

Pablo had good ball skills, good first touch and passing, and very comfortable with the ball in traffic. However, not a good finisher. Lot's of chances but I believe he only got one goal a header, which was a bit of a floater. Also not sure but I don't think he had much speed. Not sure he is what we are looking for.

very true

[JavierMartini]

i remember him being the only ounce of attraction to that edit of tfc. He is like plata. They are both spanish also...:scarf:

[loconet]

News from Peru (http://peru.com/futbol/pablo-vitti-habria-abandonado-universitario-noticia-32377) is that Vitti is no longer training with his team (la U). He has missed two training sessions. Rumors are that his exit from his club is eminent. The missed training sessions are being attributed to a stomach problem (right!). This source is saying he will end up at San Martín (the Peruvian club where he went right after leaving TFC)...very likely for less money than what he is (or not) getting paid at Universitario.

edit:

Now he denies he's leaving: http://peru.com/futbol/vitti-falso-que-haya-renunciado-noticia-32420

[KGH]

News from Peru (http://peru.com/futbol/pablo-vitti-habria-abandonado-universitario-noticia-32377) is that Vitti is no longer training with his team (la U). He has missed two training sessions. Rumors are that his exit from his club is eminent. The missed training sessions are being attributed to a stomach problem (right!). This source is saying he will end up at San Martín (the Peruvian club where he went right after leaving TFC)...very likely for less money than what he is (or not) getting paid at Universitario.

I guess a stomach problem is better than the infamous Mista foot contusion.

[backbeat]

so any further rumours about Vitti signing with TFC or not? - - this seems to have dried up - i'd be happy to hear a conclusive yea or nea...

i'm aching for a couple of CB and an AM rumours...bring 'em on....

i'd be more than happy to have Vitti back in the fold as i think he'd fit right into the Winter fray

[Nestease]

so any further rumours about Vitti signing with TFC or not? - - this seems to have dried up - i'd be happy to hear a conclusive yea or nea...

i'm aching for a couple of CB and an AM rumours...bring 'em on....

i'd be more than happy to have Vitti back in the fold as i think he'd fit right into the Winter fray


The latest news is Pablo Vitti is looking to return to his club and play out the last season on his contract.

[mdc 77]

The latest news is Pablo Vitti is looking to return to his club and play out the last season on his contract.

Also recently read this. He says he is looking forward to returning to Universitario next season, wasn't happy with the way this season finished. They just avoided relegation by a point, which is a big deal considering they are one of if not the biggest club in Peru.

[devioustrevor]

If the price is reasonable, absolutely.

This is my feeling too. At ~$100K per season I could be convinced, at $200K+ absolutely not.

[Oblio2]

100k is too much.
He's all fluff and no finish.
Not worth it....

[jloome]

Sigh....I feel so pathetic, scraping for news during the offseason....

Anyway, looks like Pablo is going to Mexico, to Queretaro

http://www.oem.com.mx/esto/notas/n2362263.htm

[los sonadores]

Sigh....I feel so pathetic, scraping for news during the offseason....

Anyway, looks like Pablo is going to Mexico, to Queretaro

http://www.oem.com.mx/esto/notas/n2362263.htm

Ah, too bad, I thought he would fit well into Winter's system and with the improved ball movement in general. I seem to remember he linked up well with Danny D so I'd expect a smart centre forward like Koevermans would suit him.

Didn't suppose we could afford him though.

[Yohan]

Vitti is now on loan at Queretaro of Mexican Primera Division until end of Clasura. Currently has 2 goals and 1 assist in 4 games

[Nodoubtguy]

Vitti is now on loan at Queretaro of Mexican Primera Division until end of Clasura. Currently has 2 goals and 1 assist in 4 games

Would have loved to have him back. Oddly enough I caught a game in Queretaro (vs Santos Laguna) last summer.

[iy12l]

we should have signed him, hes a better CAM than avila + silva

[CSO_BBTB]

I suspect the key stumbling block would be that he is probably also a significantly more expensive one.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

yeah I dont think he was a financial option

[T-boy]

we should have signed him, hes a better CAM than avila + silva

How do you know that?! None of us have ever seen Silva play! I'm not sure how you can make that judgement?

[ochos]

I know most people aren't serious about signing this guy, but for those of you who are...

- he's too slow (and not in the "I can still outsmart you dribbling" Soolsma kinda way)
- he's a pushover who would run INTO traffic...
- poor finishing
- no hustle

Ya he would suit this system somewhat, create good link ups around the box and all, but seriously I hope we attract better quality than him, now and in the years ahead. I can't honestly remember him ever making a run behind defenders.. even in an ACM role I'd want a quick guy who can rotate positions with any of the forwards a la Barce/CR7 ManU

[Oldtimer]

I know most people aren't serious about signing this guy

Actually, a lot of people are (or more correctly were), but since this thread was created, the possibility of getting him passed, so I'm not sure why the thread continues to live...

[ochos]

#wecandobetter2012

[Auzzy]

Actually, a lot of people are (or more correctly were), but since this thread was created, the possibility of getting him passed, so I'm not sure why the thread continues to live...

Zombie thread does not die... looking for brains...

Actually, thread got restarted yesterday when Yohan let us know where Vitti ended up on loan... Some took that as an occasion to compare Vitti with the apparent latest choice of AM (Avila/Silva).

I say, we shall see, only a few more days until the tournie in Florida, although I expect we still may see some experimental lineups at the beginning.

[TFCRegina]

http://www.strat-talk.com/forum/attachments/stratocaster-discussion-forum/20786d1304452679-questions-about-1991-usa-strat-necrothread.jpg

That is all.

[scooter]

let it be

[Sid]

SO is he signed with toronto fc ?????

[Ossington Mental Youth]

nope

[Razcle]

Still nope. But I heard he got his hands on a case of media guides for a friend he made while playing for TFC, any idea who that may be?

[TOBOR !]

http://www.strat-talk.com/forum/attachments/stratocaster-discussion-forum/20786d1304452679-questions-about-1991-usa-strat-necrothread.jpg

That is all.

http://cmns223.wikispaces.com/file/view/wiser_hood.jpg/212366954/wiser_hood.jpg