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Oldtimer
10-23-2011, 05:52 PM
DC United are going to sign DeRo's cheque:


D.C. United plans to offer a contract extension to Dwayne De Rosario, who was acquired from the New York Red Bulls in a midseason trade and is now a candidate to win MLS’ MVP award (http://aol.sportingnews.com/soccer/story/2011-10-20/dwayne-de-rosario-is-mls-best-player-by-a-country-mile) despite his team missing the playoffs, the Washington Post reports (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/soccer-insider/post/dc-united-planning-to-offer-contract-extension-to-dwayne-de-rosario/2011/10/21/gIQAVG9m3L_blog.html).
“We would like to sit down with Dwayne and his representative and discuss an extension,” United general manager Dave Kasper told The Post. The team holds an option for next season on De Rosario’s contact but wants to sign him to a long-term deal.
De Rosario was paid about $500,000 this season, half of which was paid by Toronto FC, for whom he played last season and for the first few weeks of this one. The United would sign De Rosario as a Designated Player and pay the balance of his deal that isn’t covered by the league (about $350,000), The Post reports.
“It’s huge,” De Rosario said on potentially re-signing with United. “That’s what I always wanted, especially as a family guy, I have to do what’s right not only for me, but for my family as well.
Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/soccer/story/2011-10-23/united-eyes-long-term-deal-with-dwayne-de-rosario (http://aol.sportingnews.com/soccer/story/2011-10-23/united-eyes-long-term-deal-with-dwayne-de-rosario#ixzz1beEvemjB)


* United aren't saying how much DeRo will get paid. $500k? $600k? $100 billion? It will be interesting to see where he ends up. I would guess less than $1 million.

AL-MO
10-23-2011, 05:58 PM
Good for him.

prizby
10-23-2011, 06:14 PM
doubt he gets much more, DC United were just looking to save cap room

TFCRegina
10-23-2011, 06:28 PM
Definitely wasn't worth DP money I guess.

[NBF]
10-23-2011, 06:39 PM
DC United says it paid DeRosario $500,000 salary, with half of that being paid by TFC. Now DC United want to sign DeRosario to a DP contract and will only be in the hook $350,000 of that contract with the league paying the rest of his DP salary?

Is that correct? You can either have someone signed to a regular contract at $500,000 or you can pay them a DP salary and have the league split the bill and you are only on the hook for $350,000?

Chevy
10-23-2011, 06:47 PM
It's almost guaranteed that he will get minimun DP money, probably for two years which is good for a player of his age.

This is more an adminstrative move than anything by the DC front office, but hopefully that will get him to STFU. Not likely though. I put the over/under for him complaining about his "undervalued DP contract" at 9 months.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-23-2011, 06:51 PM
couldnt care less about this guy and what hes doing now, prob shouldnt have even bothered to post up in this thread

TFCRegina
10-23-2011, 06:59 PM
couldnt care less about this guy and what hes doing now, prob shouldnt have even bothered to post up in this thread

Yet there's still lots of people who bother to post about ex-TFC players on other teams all the time.

I guess De Ro posts aren't allowed because he actually scored goals and stuff.

Shakes McQueen
10-23-2011, 07:05 PM
Yet there's still lots of people who bother to post about ex-TFC players on other teams all the time.

I guess De Ro posts aren't allowed because he actually scored goals and stuff.

Since when have DeRo posts not been allowed? If I had to guess, I'd say he's probably the number one discussion subject on the board this year, long after he left.

You're allowed to post threads, and Ossington is allowed to explain his objection to them if he so chooses.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
10-23-2011, 07:11 PM
Slightly misleading thread title, OT. The article quotes DC as saying they'd like to sign him to an extension, and not much else.

I'll be interested to see what he signs for, if he does. And will the league have anything to say about it, since they ultimately sign off on all contracts. If you recall, the league FO openly objected to DeRo being made a DP when he was still in Toronto.

- Scott

Brooker
10-23-2011, 07:18 PM
Shakes are you out of your mind? Do not engage these people. Retreat from this powderkeg and find shelter.

Wull
10-23-2011, 07:48 PM
Good for him.

This

Ossington Mental Youth
10-23-2011, 07:53 PM
Yet there's still lots of people who bother to post about ex-TFC players on other teams all the time.

I guess De Ro posts aren't allowed because he actually scored goals and stuff.

i was referring to myself re bothering to post up in this thread.

ginkster88
10-23-2011, 08:06 PM
If he gets this I'm happy for him.

Phil
10-23-2011, 08:13 PM
I am happy for the guy, I hope it gets done.

The life of professional athletes is a challenging one!

Waggy
10-23-2011, 08:28 PM
Congrats to him if he gets it, but I'd be surprised. That article only said that United (the united lol) WANT to sign him to a DP contract. MLS were the ones who said Dero wasn't able to be signed as a DP as recently as February. Either Dero's 2nd half changed their minds, or United hasn't asked them yet. Either way, I'll believe it when I see it

Oldtimer
10-23-2011, 08:35 PM
^ I figure if DC United have gone public with wanting to sign him as a DP, they have already spoken to the league, and the league has relented, and will let him be a DP. (That may not be the case, however.)

I doubt he'll be paid a JDG-level salary even if he is a DP, so there is still plenty of potential for future salary disputes, as happened in Houston when he got a raise, but later was unhappy, or Toronto where he got a raise, but later was unhappy. Fair enough, he's a good player.

My personal opinion is that as long as TFC isn't footing the bill, I want DeRo paid very, very, well... in fact as much as possible, hopefully so much that DC can't afford any other DPs. Bring on the stacks of gold! :)

Waggy
10-23-2011, 08:38 PM
^ I figure if DC United have gone public with wanting to sign him as a DP, they have already spoken to the league, and the league has relented, and will let him be a DP. That may not be the case, however.

I doubt he'll be paid a JDG level salary even if he is a DP, so there is still plenty of potential for future salary disputes, as happened in Houston.

Could also be trying to put public pressure on the league to approve it, or at least make the intent public enough that if MLS does still say no, Dero won't go all TFC on them and be mad at the right people (the league). But like I said, who knows. I'm sure we'll find out more soon. To me the matter of how much he's paid doesn't matter so much as the tag. I dont like that MLS would be bending their rules for United when we asked for the very same courtesy earlier this year and were denied (though I'm happier we didn't sign Dero to a DP contract. I love me some Frings on the side). If this does happen I'd be MUCH more inclined to actually believe that the league does look out for the US teams first, and the Canadian ones 2nd.

Auzzy
10-23-2011, 08:54 PM
The quote that I remember most clearly from the league earlier this year, was that they weren't happy with DeRo wanting to re-open his contract (again), for the 2011 season, where he was still signed to a firm contract. (Not saying that was necessarily the main thing that scuttled negotiations with TFC; just recalling what a league rep said at the time.) Note that during his time with NY & DC this year, he was playing out that contract, with the same pay as negotiated earlier with TFC. Next year is the last & option year of DeRo's contract, and there is more precedent from other players for renegotiating at that point (since he would be able to start entertaining other offers halfway through next year anyway).

There's the other issue of an MLS-based player being turned into a DP, which was previously considered a no-no. Perhaps the league is softening on that front, and there will be other cases like that? Of course, with 3 DP spots per team rather than 1 as there used to be, there's also more room for flexibility. We shall see how the league and other players respond.

It will be interesting to see what DeRo actually gets paid. This is also a way for DC to save salary cap space & allocation money. Someone asked above: in the case of a (1st or 2nd) DP, the league pays $335k of the salary, and that's how much is charged against the team's salary cap. The rest of the DP salary (whatever it may be) is paid directly by the team. Up to now, DeRo's salary had been boosted above the regular maximum pay, using allocation money, so it's a bigger hit under the team's salary limits. (Whereas with DP pay, it hits the team's pocketbook more directly, but doesn't affect the overall salary limit as much.)

Congrats to DeRo! Hopefully we won't need to be discussing DeRo so much anymore, next season.


EDIT I should say, congrats to DeRo, and DCU, if it actually works out & everyone is happy afterwards.... we shall see.

SoccMan
10-23-2011, 09:09 PM
Hope he gets the DP money he deserves it, will go down in history as one of the best players the MLS has ever had. He has won two championhips, and that's what every player plays for, and DeRo has won two, and in both championships he was an integral part of his team's success. Moreover, along with the championships his stats speak for themselves. DeRosario a local Toronto boy who learned to play soccer right here in TO on the local pitches around this city, he is proof that even here in Canada we can create good soccer players. If he gets a DP contract then I say well deserved, because as we all know look at all the bums that were given DP money and could not live up to the money they were given and who were not worthy of shinning DeRo's shoes with their performances in this league!

TFCRegina
10-23-2011, 09:12 PM
Congrats to him if he gets it, but I'd be surprised. That article only said that United (the united lol) WANT to sign him to a DP contract. MLS were the ones who said Dero wasn't able to be signed as a DP as recently as February. Either Dero's 2nd half changed their minds, or United hasn't asked them yet. Either way, I'll believe it when I see it

This continues to assume that nobody at TFC lied about MLS saying no to De Ro being a DP.

Quite frankly, I don't think they said no.

Auzzy
10-23-2011, 09:20 PM
This continues to assume that nobody at TFC lied about MLS saying no to De Ro being a DP.

Quite frankly, I don't think they said no.

I can't remember anyone from TFC ever saying publicly, that the league would not allow them to sign DeRo as a DP.


I do remember a senior league official saying publicly at the time however, that DeRo should not be re-opening his contract again at that point. Again, not saying that was necessarily the deciding point in the impasse with TFC; just saying there was a direct quote from the league on that issue.

Outside of that, I don't really believe anything that anyone says about that situation, from either camp (TFC/MLSE, or DeRo & friends).

AL-MO
10-23-2011, 09:26 PM
This

And it should be left at that.

Waggy
10-23-2011, 09:27 PM
This continues to assume that nobody at TFC lied about MLS saying no to De Ro being a DP.

Quite frankly, I don't think they said no.

There were direct quotes from a vp of mls and from garber himself I believe.


“He made a choice two years ago, and he came to us. No one should forget that,” said Todd Durbin, MLS V-P and the league’s contract czar. “Had he played under his existing contract, he would be a free agent today.”... “We believe that the contract that he is under is the appropriate contract for him,” Durbin said.



http://www.thestar.com/article/928745--kelly-no-raise-no-play-tfc-captain-warns
(Cathal Kelly warning. I fucking hate linking that guy, but it's what I could find quickly. And I did not edit the quotes, they come ending in comas.)


"We have made a good trade for him because we have opened our cap space to help us rebuild our team, and we got two good players back," Winter said. "Nobody is bigger than the club, and he has made his own choice, and we helped him.""At the end he was not happy because he was not a DP (designated player). We tried everything to get him the DP, but in the end. . ."

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=360535

Whoop
10-23-2011, 09:29 PM
The league was pretty explicit that they wouldn't be re-opening DeRo's contract. There are quotes that are easy to find from earlier in the season.

And I believe Houston at one point inquired about doing a DP contract and was essentially told the same thing by the league.

The league though, over this season, may have relented on that issue. Initially the DP wasn't to be used on guys like DeRo or a Beckerman or a Stu Holden for example.

mowe
10-23-2011, 09:39 PM
Right move for DC, brings his cap hit down from $500k next season to $335k. Right move for DeRo, finally gets that DP tag he so covets.

He deserves it. The guy would've been MVP if his team made the playoffs. He's already making DP money, 16 goals 12 assists shows he's still got it. For that reason I think the league will allow it. Plus I don't think he's going to get that much of a pay raise, 700k max?

David_Oliveira
10-23-2011, 09:50 PM
I personally am happy for the man. He is one of the best Canadian players ever. No one can argue that. I'm tired of all the dero bashing and loving. Simply put, either him or the team or both didn't see him working out at TFC. Both parties have moved on. He had a hell of a season. DPs shouldn't just be for "international" stars. The league should reward excellent play by the homegrown players. Does it suck that the league "might" not have accepted it from us? Yes and no. We wouldn't have got both DK and Frings, who in my opinion fit into the system abit better than Dero did.

Why can't we just be happy that the league might potentially have two Canadian DPs?

backbeat
10-23-2011, 09:54 PM
This continues to assume that nobody at TFC lied about MLS saying no to De Ro being a DP.

Quite frankly, I don't think they said no.

please, let's move on.....

we've got a good core and we're finally moving in the right direction....

jazzy
10-23-2011, 10:50 PM
Amazing...finally getting what he deserved....and eaten alive in his home town...?? Very common here unfortunately.

Auzzy
10-23-2011, 10:54 PM
^ Eaten alive? Where do you read that? Plenty of posters here are saying, good for DeRo -- even though there is some disagreement about his situation at TFC.

ensco
10-23-2011, 11:28 PM
I don't actually think that this is possible without tearing up the existing deal. Which I thought was the problem. His option for 2012 is not for DP money. I don't get how DC do an "extension" and Dero becomes a DP before 2013.

Yohan
10-23-2011, 11:34 PM
I don't actually think that this is possible without tearing up the existing deal. Which I thought was the problem. His option for 2012 is not for DP money. I don't get how DC do an "extension" and Dero becomes a DP before 2013.
unless it's just not using allocation money to pay down DeRo's contract so DeRo gets DP label, but at his current salary

Auzzy
10-23-2011, 11:34 PM
^ As mentioned above, I think it's somewhat more common to re-negotiate before the last year of a deal, especially if it's an option year. After all, DeRo would be free to entertain offers from other clubs by mid-season otherwise. It was the same situation with Nana: in that case, the club wanted to re-negotiate before the final year of his deal, but Nana didn't want to commit longer-term in that case. However, that situation tells me that the league is more likely to allow re-negotiation before the final (option) year of a deal. I've heard similar from other players.

ensco
10-23-2011, 11:41 PM
unless it's just not using allocation money to pay down DeRo's contract so DeRo gets DP label, but at his current salary

This has been discussed. I don't think this is allowed. The 2010 salary thread had endless discussion of the rules around this, people thought we were doing it for Dero.


^ As mentioned above, I think it's somewhat more common to re-negotiate before the last year of a deal, especially if it's an option year.

I totally get it with a younger player who has options. Not sure I see what Dero's options will be away from MLS at age 35.

Auzzy
10-23-2011, 11:44 PM
We shall see, I guess!

Roogsy
10-23-2011, 11:58 PM
This has been discussed. I don't think this is allowed. The 2010 salary thread had endless discussion of the rules around this, people thought we were doing it for Dero.



I totally get it with a younger player who has options. Not sure I see what Dero's options will be away from MLS at age 35.

There was interest from Europe at the start of the year. Now that he is the Golden Boot winner that interest will likely solidify even more. And if he wins MVP it will likely add a premium to offers. If you had asked me in August where I thought Dwayne would play next, I would have said overseas. But if DC comes in with an attractive offer he may opt to stay in the US for less because it is more comfortable for his family.

By the way he is 33.

Whoop
10-24-2011, 12:58 AM
Was he going to the Middle East?

ensco
10-24-2011, 06:39 AM
There was interest from Europe at the start of the year.
...

By the way he is 33.

I meant, to assess the degree of leverage he has with respect to his situation in DC, ie what is the likelihood that they will renegotiate...you have to assess what would the interest in him be in 2013, when his existing contract expires and he is almost 35....

btw I hope he goes to Europe. I would be seriously curious to see what he could do. His performance these last two years, in bad situations in Toronto and DC, has been unbelievable. But Dero has to play a featured role to be effective, and I'm not sure he can get that with a club worth going to over there....

Mikey
10-24-2011, 06:46 AM
Good for Dero, a decent shout for League MVP, golden boot, even after being stabbed in the back by the MLSE fanboys in his hometown. Its Good to see someone who actually walks the walk to come out ahead of all the MLSE bullshit merchants who just talk the talk at renewals time.

Pookie
10-24-2011, 07:08 AM
What a better way to finish the year than talk about a player that demanded a trade ;)

From a contract front, if you take the story at face value, there is an interesting negotiation apparently being undertaken.

DeRo - wants security and at 33 (turning 34 just a few games into next season) it's a good move for him to seek it. Schelotto won the MVP in 2008 at 35. One season removed from that award, he was released from Columbus and went through the rentry draft untouched

DC United - obviously have their interests set on seeing DeRosario continue to contribute. Secondly, it's an offseason where they missed the playoffs. Selling tickets is the name of the game and you need to give the fans something to hold on to.

MLS - backed into a corner, need to take a stand on the contract front but also probably wish that Dwayne didn't have a stand out year. His performance needs to be acknowledged.

If you take all of that and understand that the max league salary for ANY player is $335k, you understand that DeRo only counted $335k against the cap.

The rest of his salary was being picked up through allocation money, which is essentially the league's money.

If DC are offering to "pay the balance of his deal that isn’t covered by the league" , that could be the win in this for all sides. DeRo's take home pay may not rise but with additional years he gets security and if they give the DP tag to him he also gets that coveted name plate he has been looking for.

DC gets a player and a face to sell tickets. Signing DeRo doesn't make them any better but it doesn't make them worse... unless you believe in Opportunity Cost and if signing him prevents them some signing someone better... but I digress. It is a win for DC.

The League benefits in that they are no longer ponying up Allocation Money to extend his salary beyond the non-DP league max. Perhaps they could use this as a precedent moving forward to insist that if clubs want to make salary concessions/exceptions on MLS bred players (like a Casey, or Cunningham, or Le Toux), then it is up to the team to pay it. They can save the Allocations for DPs that fit with their plan (big name players they intended to bring over for marketing purposes). They win a little here too.

As for TFC, I'd put our #14 up against DC's #14 any day. I'd also put our Captain up against anything DeRo ever did for the TEAM as holder of that armband.

David_Oliveira
10-24-2011, 07:43 AM
What a better way to finish the year than talk about a player that demanded a trade ;)

As for TFC, I'd put our #14 up against DC's #14 any day. I'd also put our Captain up against anything DeRo ever did for the TEAM as holder of that armband.

Just going to comment on these parts of your post. The rest was really well done but these two parts I don't understand.
The First Paragraph- why can't people talk about an MLS player in the MLS news section? Is that not what it is here for?

The Second Paragraph- Why bring TFC in to this discussion like that? I don't understand why there is a constant need for trolling. You don't like the man fine I don't either but while he was here, he was our best striker until he left. At the very least respect what he did. Dero will always have alittle (and I mean little) part of my heart for his role in the Miracle in Montreal

Haters, let it go!! The man wanted out. At least he didn't pack it in and play shitty the rest of his time here

Lovers, let it go!!! Dude has moved on to what he believes is better.

Love him or hate him, the boy can play. If it wasn't for the salary cap, I would make him one of the highest paid players but it wouldn't happen at TFC. He just doesn't fit the system

Shakes McQueen
10-24-2011, 08:00 AM
The league was pretty explicit that they wouldn't be re-opening DeRo's contract. There are quotes that are easy to find from earlier in the season.

And I believe Houston at one point inquired about doing a DP contract and was essentially told the same thing by the league.

The league though, over this season, may have relented on that issue. Initially the DP wasn't to be used on guys like DeRo or a Beckerman or a Stu Holden for example.

This is what I was getting at. DC don't say anything explicit about a DP contract in that article - they just state the obvious (that they'd like to extend him).

Given what the league has had to say about this before, I'll be interested to see what happens. Beckerman and Holden are a lot younger than DeRo, and that might be why the league saw them differently.

I'm ambivalent on how much I'd like to see him get paid - it doesn't matter to me. I'm not concerned with feeling some token vindication as a jilted TFC fan, by having him not get a fat DP contract. It'll just be interesting to see how this unfolds.

- Scott

Technorgasm
10-24-2011, 08:07 AM
MLSE - new and imporved with fully Egged face!

. . . tear this leage apart.
best TFC player ever.

v00d00daddy
10-24-2011, 08:27 AM
MLSE - new and imporved with fully Egged face!

. . . tear this leage apart.
best TFC player ever.

I'd guess that you could count on one hand the number of people at MLSE that wish we still had dero.

Give him the money...give him the dp tag and give him the MVP and golden boot.

He deserves it all.

But that has nothing to do with whether or not TFC miss him.

I think dc would be making a mistake to make him a dp unless it's purely a cap management move as many here have suggested. If it costs less against the cap to call him a dp then it makes sense. Otherwise...

Congrats dero...good luck but also...good riddance.

Pookie
10-24-2011, 08:42 AM
Just going to comment on these parts of your post. The rest was really well done but these two parts I don't understand.
The First Paragraph- why can't people talk about an MLS player in the MLS news section? Is that not what it is here for?

The Second Paragraph- Why bring TFC in to this discussion like that? I don't understand why there is a constant need for trolling. You don't like the man fine I don't either but while he was here, he was our best striker until he left. At the very least respect what he did. Dero will always have alittle (and I mean little) part of my heart for his role in the Miracle in Montreal



First paragraph, I guess I need a better writer to open the post.

Second referenced paragraph it was directed at the post directly above mine that referenced TFC/MLSE fanboys stabbing him in the back.

ManUtd4ever
10-24-2011, 08:57 AM
In any case, I don't think the developments of DeRo's contract situation in DC should reflect negatively on TFC management.

Prior to the season, Winter and Mariner made it clear that they had contacted the league regarding the possibility of renegotiating DeRo's salary mid term, with the intent to offer DeRo a raise, despite not being contractually obligated to do so. A MLS official subsequently made it abuntantly clear that the league was not willing to void DeRo's existing contract for the second time in his career.

TFC management was left in a precarious position. The only alternative to appease DeRo financially was to supplement his existing salary by way of allocation, which would have granted him a total salary of approximately 600K, and tied up a considerable amount of cap space in the process. DeRo had demanded a DP contract in excess of one million dollars, which wasn't economically feasible due to the circumstances, and then he proceeded to demand a trade.

I will also be curious to watch this situation unfold given the manner in which MLS has intervened in the past.

brad
10-24-2011, 08:59 AM
There was interest from Europe at the start of the year. Now that he is the Golden Boot winner that interest will likely solidify even more. And if he wins MVP it will likely add a premium to offers. If you had asked me in August where I thought Dwayne would play next, I would have said overseas. But if DC comes in with an attractive offer he may opt to stay in the US for less because it is more comfortable for his family.

By the way he is 33.

DC may have an edge due to contract length. Lots of clubs overseas will not sign players of his age into contracts longer than one year. While success in the MLS success is getting more credibility, he is also unproven in Europe.

Of course, total value of the package might still make a one year contract win out.

Fort York Redcoat
10-24-2011, 09:28 AM
as long as TFC isn't footing the bill, I want DeRo paid very, very, well... in fact as much as possible, hopefully so much that DC can't afford any other DPs. Bring on the stacks of gold! :)

Absolutely. Have some other team shackled by his biggest payday ever since he didn't work out here. As for his performance I wish he'd do a 180 and be a better player in Canada red than whatever club shirt he'll be wearing.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 10:07 AM
I'd guess that you could count on one hand the number of people at MLSE that wish we still had dero.

Hopefully that one hand has dozens of fingers on it. Last DeRo event for the Canada vs St Lucia game had dozens of MLSE and TFC staff and players on hand wishing him well and mentioning they wished he was still here. The only segment of MLSE that was absent was the executive level, so my guess is in that area you might be right, they probably don't like him.

MLSE staff in particular miss him, and they've told me. He was a visible star on a team that needed it. He was always willing to help their marketing efforts. Never complained. Always stepped up, especially when other players would not. He showed commitment to this team. MLSE used him to the max...and then management decided not to reward neither the product on the pitch, nor the commitment to the team. And as we all now know, many fans have done the same.

ManUtd4ever
10-24-2011, 10:24 AM
MLSE used him to the max...and then management decided not to reward neither the product on the pitch, nor the commitment to the team.

Based on the sequence of events that transpired leading up to DeRo's request to be traded, I don't think this is an accurate statement.

You have stated several times that Winter was intent on keeping DeRo, and MLS was quite clear regarding it's stance towards renegotiating DeRo's contract mid term.

Many of us were disappointed that DeRo did not remain with the club, but by all accounts, the end result was his preference, not that of TFC management.

DeRo has since played out his contract with two different clubs for the exact same salary that he earned with TFC. If MLS decides to suddenly change it's position regarding DeRo's contract in the off season, then that is certainly not the fault of TFC management.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 10:46 AM
Based on the sequence of events that transpired leading up to DeRo's request to be traded, I don't think this is an accurate statement.

You have stated several times that Winter was intent on keeping DeRo, and MLS was quite clear regarding it's stance towards renegotiating DeRo's contract mid term.

Many of us were disappointed that DeRo did not remain with the club, but by all accounts, the end result was his preference, not that of TFC management.

DeRo has since played out his contract with two different clubs for the exact same salary that he earned with TFC. If MLS decides to suddenly change it's position regarding DeRo's contract in the off season, then that is certainly not the fault of TFC management.

The contract renegotiation was not nixed by MLS. I know that's the new rationalization for TFC, but it is simply not true. The reason I know this? They did offer a new contract to DeRo. How could they offer a new contract if they weren't "allowed" to change the existing one?

And his preference was to stay with the team. Let's not rewrite history. That was then and continues to be now the truth.

Whoop
10-24-2011, 10:59 AM
Not looking for a fight, but I wonder what opportunities he has overseas and especially if they are first team opportunities? Just trying to think what first division league he could succeed in.

Or is it a negotiation ploy to get the money out of DC?

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 11:03 AM
Or is it a negotiation ploy to get the money out of DC?

Nope, interest came well before he went to DC.

Pookie
10-24-2011, 11:15 AM
Perhaps you are both correct but are missing some detail in your statements.

The league would not allow the team to open up the contract to the satisfaction of either party.

DeRo, looking for DP tag at one point and a comparable salary to JDG wasn't going to get it. TFC was open to keeping him and looked to pony up a little more cash and term. MLS not willing to go beyond that to get to DeRo's happy place.

In the end there was no deal to be made.

While we are focused on truth, let's not forget DeRo's comments as recently as last week on Soccer Central.

On being traded twice, " NY caught me by surprise. Toronto was the only situation I had control over"

He asked to be traded. Period. Counter argument of "can you blame him?" aside, he didn't want to play here anymore. Not for new coaches, not for new GM, not for current players, not for pride of crest... He was done and wanted out. There is no way to spin that and there really doesn't need to be. Both sides are better off.

He is trying to parlay his success this year into a new deal with either a longer term and/or a higher salary. I wish him well in that regard. From a competitive standpoint, I hope he takes DC to the cleaners and they are out of money for when the transfer window opens.

Whoop
10-24-2011, 11:19 AM
Nope, interest came well before he went to DC.

Someone other than Celtic?

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 11:20 AM
He asked to be traded. Period. Counter argument of "can you blame him?" aside, he didn't want to play here anymore. Not for new coaches, not for new GM, not for current players, not for pride of crest... He was done and wanted out. There is no way to spin that and there really doesn't need to be. Both sides are better off.


You are acting like that was a revelation. It was months ago it was already revealed that he gave TFC an ultimatum to resolve the contract issue or trade him. He didn't ask to be traded as much as he asked the situation to end. The choice was in TFC's hands. So your portrayal of the trade is still inaccurate because you leave out material information.

I'd disagree with the better off part as well. But that's another discussion.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 11:21 AM
Someone other than Celtic?

Yes. Although the interest from Celtic did remain. I have not heard much since NY though. I don't know where Celtic stands with their interest right now.

Pookie
10-24-2011, 11:25 AM
You are acting like that was a revelation. It was months ago it was already revealed that he gave TFC an ultimatum to resolve the contract issue or trade him. He didn't ask to be traded as much as he asked the situation to end. The choice was in TFC's hands. So your portrayal of the trade is still inaccurate because you leave out material information.

Material information, like the fact that the situation he wanted to end was the situation he created?

He did sign his name to a contract and he did play out the terms of that contract with teams other than the one he signed for didn't he?

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 11:37 AM
Material information, like the fact that the situation he wanted to end was the situation he created?

He did sign his name to a contract and he did play out the terms of that contract with teams other than the one he signed for didn't he?

There it is. The team had no part in this of course. The same old TFC apologies.

But this is a circle we've revisited many times. It's just clear that the team is blameless and the player is wholly to blame. It's the same pattern of not holding this team accountable that gets to me because all it does is allow for more of the same. And the same ignoring of the facts. And people wonder why I am disallusioned.

OK, we're pretty much done here. Nothing new to read.

Chevy
10-24-2011, 11:39 AM
Interest is one thing - hell I could get Inter to return my calls and call it 'interest'.

Forgetting the cup of coffee he had over there a lifetime ago, there has been ZERO evidence that ANY euro club has ever offered a contract to the player. ZERO. Celtic was a jog on the pitch to keep Freddy company, nothing more.

I find it hard to believe that the player woulndn't be screaming about these so called offers if they in fact existed. I hope he get's his DP tag and a $501k salary (or whatever the min is). Then we can all sit back and watch him start bitching about how crappy his DP contract is.

Pookie
10-24-2011, 11:57 AM
There it is. The team had no part in this of course. The same old TFC apologies.

But this is a circle we've revisited many times. It's just clear that the team is blameless and the player is wholly to blame. It's the same pattern of not holding this team accountable that gets to me because all it does is allow for more of the same. And the same ignoring of the facts. And people wonder why I am disallusioned.

OK, we're pretty much done here. Nothing new to read.

I think you'll find that many folks who are happy to see DeRo moved were in on the MLSE protests and wearing green. Far from apologists.

One more material fact to consider is that DeRo was offered two contracts when he came here. One had a shorter term and would have seen him become a free agent sooner. The other had a longer term.

He picked the longer term and tried to get the benefits of the first one.

Now maybe both contracts were crap and MLSE didn't come through on "promises." The point in time to rectify that one is before you sign your name to a contract.

Let's not absolve him or his agent in creating the situation he found "untenable" in Toronto. He created it. He wanted to leave. He had a good season. Hope he gets a big payday that hampers DC for many, many years.

Gazza
10-24-2011, 12:09 PM
couldnt care less about this guy and what hes doing now, prob shouldnt have even bothered to post up in this thread

There's a spot waiting for him on our wall o' fame.

Chevy
10-24-2011, 12:30 PM
There's a spot waiting for him on our wall o' fame.

Un-friggin' likely.

brad
10-24-2011, 12:34 PM
The only way DeRo would have stayed is with a DP tag and a big pay increase.

Had that happened we would not have been able to sign one of Frings or Koevemans. Frings is far and away the most talented player this team has ever had (and is a natural leader), and Koevermans is scoring at nearly a goal per game.

As much as I would have liked DeRo to stay, we are a better team IMHO with our two new DP's than we would be with either one + DeRo.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 12:35 PM
The only way DeRo would have stayed is with a DP tag and a big pay increase.

Nope. Again, buying the company line. He dropped the DP demands in Toronto and I've said it a million times but it must be that I am writing in invisible ink.

brad
10-24-2011, 12:38 PM
Nope. Again, buying the company line. He dropped the DP demands in Toronto and I've said it a million times but it must be that I am writing in invisible ink.

Then why did he ask to be traded (honest question here - I don't know).

Chevy
10-24-2011, 12:43 PM
DeRo has stated (on camera) that he should be close to the highest player on TFC. That would make him earning in the $1m - $1.7m range.

How he could possibly accomplish this without a DP tag is beyond me. I honestly think that the player believes that becoming a DP will guarantee him a huge salary. He's probably in for a rude awakening when he get's that $501k DP offer from DC (if it comes his way at all)

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 12:50 PM
Then why did he ask to be traded (honest question here - I don't know).

Because the new contract offered to him was little changed from the previous one except it offered an extended year at a substantially reduced salary at the team's option. This after months of the team telling him to wait, that they will come up with "something", this is what they came up with. When he rejected the deal, it boiled down to the team opting to either improve on it or trade him and he made that clear. That's when the trade happened. To say it was totally DeRo demanding a trade is not entirely true. He gave TFC the option and they took one of the choices. I believe that's called a "mutual decision".

Listen, if people know the facts and still feel it was best for him to leave, I am ok with that. My biggest pet peeve is the misinformation that gets thrown out there. Because then people are formulating opinions that are based on incorrect information. And the worst part is that the misinformation gets repeated and repeated over and over again. Like somehow repeating it makes it more true. It just makes us willing participants in TFC's campaign of misdirection.

That and those that say that this team and all it's woes could not have used a player that puts up the kind of numbers he did this year (and last year for us).

Canary10
10-24-2011, 01:02 PM
Because the new contract offered to him was little changed from the previous one except it offered an extended year at a substantially reduced salary at the team's option. This after months of the team telling him to wait, that they will come up with "something", this is what they came up with. When he rejected the deal, it boiled down to the team opting to either improve on it or trade him and he made that clear. That's when the trade happened. To say it was totally DeRo demanding a trade is not entirely true. He gave TFC the option and they took one of the choices. I believe that's called a "mutual decision".

Listen, if people know the facts and still feel it was best for him to leave, I am ok with that. My biggest pet peeve is the misinformation that gets thrown out there. Because then people are formulating opinions that are based on incorrect information. And the worst part is that the misinformation gets repeated and repeated over and over again. Like somehow repeating it makes it more true. It just makes us willing participants in TFC's campaign of misdirection.

That and those that say that this team and all it's woes could not have used a player that puts up the kind of numbers he did this year (and last year for us).

Is there really any information that isn't "misinformation?" Even with what you posted above, I could support any side of the argument. Wish everyone would just get over it.

ManUtd4ever
10-24-2011, 01:03 PM
Because the new contract offered to him was little changed from the previous one except it offered an extended year at a substantially reduced salary at the team's option. This after months of the team telling him to wait, that they will come up with "something", this is what they came up with. When he rejected the deal, it boiled down to the team opting to either improve on it or trade him and he made that clear. That's when the trade happened. To say it was totally DeRo demanding a trade is not entirely true. He gave TFC the option and they took one of the choices. I believe that's called a "mutual decision".

Listen, if people know the facts and still feel it was best for him to leave, I am ok with that. My biggest pet peeve is the misinformation that gets thrown out there. Because then people are formulating opinions that are based on incorrect information. And the worst part is that the misinformation gets repeated and repeated over and over again. Like somehow repeating it makes it more true. It just makes us willing participants in TFC's campaign of misdirection.

The misinformation is based on several statements from DeRo, Aron Winter, Paul Mariner, and MLS officials that were quoted in the media, as well as details that were provided throughout the negotiating process by credible media sources such as It's Called Football.

How is it that we are willing participants in an alleged campaign of disinformation when all the information that was made public is synonymous?

brad
10-24-2011, 01:04 PM
^^Thanks for the explanation. I honestly haven't followed all of the fallout since he left.

Belfast_Boy
10-24-2011, 01:06 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/sites/league/files/imagecache/stats_headshot/players/head-shots/headshot-de-rosario.jpg
Dwayne De Rosario (http://www.mlssoccer.com/players/dwayne-de-rosario)16.
Chris Wondolowski (http://www.mlssoccer.com/players/chris-wondolowski)16
Thierry Henry (http://www.mlssoccer.com/players/thierry-henry)14
Andres Mendoza (http://www.mlssoccer.com/players/andres-mendoza)13
Fredy Montero (http://www.mlssoccer.com/players/fredy-montero)12


looking at this list I'd say he deserves it.

brad
10-24-2011, 01:22 PM
^^I agree - also, he is a marquee player that is well known in the league. MLS needs to focus on keeping players like him around if they want to grow the league.

Yohan
10-24-2011, 01:27 PM
^^I agree - also, he is a marquee player that is well known in the league. MLS needs to focus on keeping players like him around if they want to grow the league.
time for an another raise, Wondo!

Pookie
10-24-2011, 01:41 PM
That and those that say that this team and all it's woes could not have used a player that puts up the kind of numbers he did this year (and last year for us).

We already rode that DeRo pony to nowhere. The same place DC arrived at.

One might suggest that the team achieved more this year without him.

Sort of like saying that if he goes back to DC it is a good signing for DC. Ultimately, signing him is a move for the status quo. It doesn't make their team any better. It doesn't make them worse, unless his performance drops.

For them to improve, they will need more than DeRo.

Oldtimer
10-24-2011, 01:58 PM
The interesting thing about DC is that they are going in a totally different direction from the one that won them all of that silverware over the years.

DC always was built on a few key latino players, and played in a latino-influenced style. The team now is being rebuilt on different principles. It will be interesting to see how far it gets them.

I don't think DeRo alone can make them winners, any more than he could with TFC. It will be interesting to see how they build a team around him, and if it will work.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 02:08 PM
I don't think DeRo alone can make them winners, any more than he could with TFC. It will be interesting to see how they build a team around him, and if it will work.

But that's the same everywhere OT. It takes more than one player. Nobody has ever said otherwise. Or do we think that having Frings alone would have made us a better team this year or next year? No. We need Frings, and Koevs, and Ecks, and Plata etc. etc. Does anyone think that if we had only brought in Frings and nobody else that we'd be looking at next year and planning the parade already? Shoot...I'd be willing to be we wouldn't even make the playoffs. Does this mean Frings isn't a good player or should be traded if we didn't have the other players? No it means that having Frings along with the other players previously mentioned makes this a better team.

Now...who else did we have when DeRo was here that was the Frings to his Koevermans? (For those that keep arguing that we didn't make the playoffs under DeRo.) Mista? JDG? Barrett?

For all this talk about going nowhere with the man, who can really argue this team had any tools to help him?

Things will only work in DC if they build on more than just him. It sucks for DC that their own DP went down with an injury at the start of the year. They would have made the playoffs had they had him available.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 02:10 PM
time for an another raise, Wondo!


Wondo is massively underpriced. But he's paying for many unproductive years, teams were left wondering if he was a one-year wonder. After 2 years, I am sure those questions are happening less and less. Does anyone believe he will stay at $175k? I don't.

Juanito
10-24-2011, 02:10 PM
Roogsy.

I'd like to think that most supporters wish De Rosario the best of luck on a personal level. He was the face of this club for the better part of two years. The ones who post and complain, I like to think, are in the minority.

Either way, De Rosario is the past. We have to move forward and support the current squad. If "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

Time to move on.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 02:14 PM
Roogsy.

I'd like to think that most supporters wish De Rosario the best of luck on a personal level. He was the face of this club for the better part of two years. The ones who post and complain, I like to think, are in the minority.

Either way, De Rosario is the past. We have to move forward and support the current squad. If "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.


I plan on putting the DeRo issue on ice once this year is done and over with. Right now we are still in the middle of evaluating the merits of this year and to me this is a big one. We would have had a better year with him on it. Period. And so to me, all these accolades that current management is getting is an all too easy forgiveness for the horrible start to this year that was not necessary. Too many sideways moves. Too much drama with more than just one player. Too many mistakes. Another year written off needlessly.

On any other team, giving up that kind of star, with that kind of production for the bag of peanuts we got in return and having the type of year we did, would be cause for mutiny by supporters. Not in this town though...here we're on our knees "thanking" management. I'd love for someone to give me an example of a big club we might follow back home that would do this type of thing and get this type of result and not have their won supporters clawing at them.

The biggest disappointment to me is how readily we forgive this team over a few wins at the end of the year that seems to have erased everything that happened during the entire season. My disallusion with this team goes well beyond the DeRo issue, that is just a symptom to me. It's like the team can shit the bed all year long, all it has to do is win a few games at the end of the year when they're meaningless and everyone is happy. I know of another team that this happens to on a regular basis right here in Toronto...and I ain't buying that koolaid.

Juanito
10-24-2011, 02:23 PM
I plan on putting the DeRo issue on ice once this year is done and over with. Right now we are still in the middle of evaluating the merits of this year and to me this is a big one. We would have had a better year with him on it. Period. And so to me, all these accolades that current management is getting is an all too easy forgiveness for the horrible start to this year that was not necessary. Too many sideways moves. Too much drama with more than just one player. Too many mistakes. Another year written off needlessly.


I agree. I don't think many people can dispute this fact.



The biggest disappointment to me is how readily we forgive this team over a few wins at the end of the year that seems to have erased everything that happened during the entire season. My disallusion with this team goes well beyond the DeRo issue, that is just a symptom to me. It's like the team can shit the bed all year long, all it has to do is win a few games at the end of the year when they're meaningless and everyone is happy. I know of another team that this happens to on a regular basis right here in Toronto...and I ain't buying that koolaid.

I'd like to think that most people will be cautiously optimistic going into next year. I'd also like to think that if they "shit the bed" once again, we will voice our disapproval. They asked us to be patient this year. I think we were. They promised us that things will get better, and if the Champions League is any indication, things seem to be going in the right direction.

I don't trust MLSE, but I have faith in Winter. I can't explain why, I guess I have faith that his vision will work out. At least there is a plan. Maybe I drank the Kool-Aid in my sleep. ;)

Canary10
10-24-2011, 02:28 PM
The DeRo thing is Mo Johnston's doing and was just one more mess the current management was handed when they came in. I give them credit for doing everyone a favor (DeRo included) and sending him on his way.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 02:30 PM
Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice, shame on me.

Remember these words? "In Mo We Trust".

Supporters should have become much more cautious instead of awarding so much trust without results. It may or may not turn out, but it won't be because we did our jobs well. We didn't with Mo, and we haven't with new management. They should be feeling the warm glare of all supproters going into next year, as motivation of getting the job done. But they don't feel that pressure at all. They must be loving it. No pressure at all. They must think managers in Europe are crazy for having to put up with expectations.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 02:32 PM
The DeRo thing is Mo Johnston's doing and was just one more mess the current management was handed when they came in. I give them credit for doing everyone a favor (DeRo included) and sending him on his way.

I don't give them credit at all. If they didn't see a resolution early in training camp, they should have taken the opportunity to get something more for him than a big of balls. Some here have pointed to that trade as indication of DeRo's worth but I saw it more as an indication of a club who backed themselves into a corner and had to take a lesser offer because they mismanaged the situation. There were offers in preseason they didn't look at. They gambled, they lost and we're thanking them. Wonderful.

Oldtimer
10-24-2011, 02:39 PM
But that's the same everywhere OT. It takes more than one player. .

Of course, I wasn't suggesting that DeRo needed to do it on his own.

My interest is that they now see him as a key piece in their new direction, and I'm really curious where it will lead them. Remember I followed DC before TFC came along.




Remember these words? "In Mo We Trust".


Actually, I don't. By game 3 of 2007, some people were already calling on him to be fired. I remember "in Carver we trust," a lot of people around here loved his passion.

ManUtd4ever
10-24-2011, 02:39 PM
The biggest disappointment to me is how readily we forgive this team over a few wins at the end of the year that seems to have erased everything that happened during the entire season. My disallusion with this team goes well beyond the DeRo issue, that is just a symptom to me. It's like the team can shit the bed all year long, all it has to do is win a few games at the end of the year when they're meaningless and everyone is happy. I know of another team that this happens to on a regular basis right here in Toronto...and I ain't buying that koolaid.

Yes, the regular season as a whole can be viewed as a failure in that the team did not qualify for the playoffs. However, the roster that led TFC to a dreadful record that had the team out of playoff contention by June is ancient history.

Our current roster achieved a respectable winning record in MLS since it was assembled during the summer transfer window. The current group also earned a significant inaugral berth in the CCL quarter finals in a very competitive group.

Of course, there is still work to be done, and Winter has acknowledged the need to further strengthen the roster in the off season, but to recognize that management has done an admirable job rebuilding the club in a relatively brief time period is not buying kool aid, it's just a matter of perspective.

Pookie
10-24-2011, 02:40 PM
I don't give them credit at all. If they didn't see a resolution early in training camp, they should have taken the opportunity to get something more for him than a big of balls. Some here have pointed to that trade as indication of DeRo's worth but I saw it more as an indication of a club who backed themselves into a corner and had to take a lesser offer because they mismanaged the situation. There were offers in preseason they didn't look at. They gambled, they lost and we're thanking them. Wonderful.

That's ok. The season is over and you can begin your campaign for a new coach.

Hans Backe might be available.

Canary10
10-24-2011, 02:41 PM
In my view, Mo set up an untenable situation by paying $2 million or whatever it was to JDG. I am a big fan of JDG, and think he should be on this team, and has been a big factor in the turnaround. But in league where salaries are low and pretty flat, paying that amount was insane. DeKlerk basically said that too at my town hall when he joked that JDG "has a really good agent." He also, by the way, went on to say that JDG is an excellent player that he supports him personally. Just hinted they would never have paid that salary.

So, the result was DeRo looked at that salary compared to his, and his output and (probably rightly) thought he should be making as much as JDG. Never mind that JDG shouldn't have been earning that in the first place. I have no inside track on the "facts" of what happened, but from outside that seems to be what happened.

Anyway, in evaluating Winter, l'm not sure what he could have done about DeRo's salary. Two wrongs don't make a right. Paying him an insane amount because JDG is paid an insane amount makes no sense. He did at least put the whole issue to an end, which I give him credit for. He then brought in two DPs at about half the price of JDG each. Winter's not one to be pushed around. Credit to him.

Pookie
10-24-2011, 02:42 PM
I agree. I don't think many people can dispute this fact.



Can I ask you where you reach the conclusion that we would have been better with him?

brad
10-24-2011, 02:44 PM
I agree. I don't think many people can dispute this fact.

I don't think it is quite as cut and dry unless you assume we would have plugged DeRo into the team we have today and gotten the same level of productivity out of him that he put in at DC.

If we had kept DeRo the team would have had a very different shape. Not just because we had DeRo, but that would have changed the equation on the other players we brought in based on what happened in that trade and what happened with cap space.

We might have been better, we might have been the same, we might have been worse. To many intertwined pieces in my opinion to make it so cut and dry.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 02:46 PM
Actually, I don't. By game 3 of 2007, some people were already calling on him to be fired. I remember "in Carver we trust," a lot of people around here loved his passion.

Mo received significant support until about Season 3. There were always detractors about Mo, and we would have done well to listen to them. It isn't the people who can provide analysis after the fact that are of any use. Hindsight doesn't help anyone. It's those warning you of a disaster before it happens that should always be given credit. And I acknowledge those Mo-haters and I applaud them for sticking to it when everyone else was mocking them.

Oldtimer
10-24-2011, 02:46 PM
That's ok. The season is over and you can begin your campaign for a new coach.

Hans Backe might be available.

:smilielol5:

Chevy
10-24-2011, 02:48 PM
Through countless pages of this debate, two truths have emerged:

1. There will be a certain group of supporters (myself included) that will never give DeRo a break considering his poor behaviour while with TFC. He could score 40 next year while curing cancer, and they still won't like him.

2. There will be a seccond group of Debbie Downers and Bitter Betty's that will never applaud TFC, no matter what level of success the club may reach. That's cool too. Why this group chooses to remain 'supporters' is puzzling, but alas it's a question for another time.

There you go.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 02:49 PM
We might have been better, we might have been the same, we might have been worse. To many intertwined pieces in my opinion to make it so cut and dry.

Yeah but which is more likely? Speculation is never exact. You can never say anything for certain. But given the results that this team achieved with DeRo and pretty much nobody else, what do you think the chances are of this team improving with DeRo coupled with a fantastic target man like Koevs and a solid holding mid like Frings? In my opinion, Winter could have taken his rookie coaching abilities and done something with our defense because we sure as well would have been able to score a bucketload of goals.

Take an educated guess?

Oldtimer
10-24-2011, 02:49 PM
Mo received significant support until about Season 3. There were always detractors about Mo, and we would have done well to listen to them. It isn't the people who can provide analysis after the fact that are of any use. Hindsight doesn't help anyone. It's those warning you of a disaster before it happens that should always be given credit. And I acknowledge those Mo-haters and I applaud them for sticking to it when everyone else was mocking them.

I was one of those who didn't want him fired right away. I believed then (and still believe now) that you give someone time before you assess them. I don't regret doing that.

Where ML$E failed miserably was in not kicking his sorry behind out of the boardroom after the disaster in New York. A GM should never be given more than 3 coaches to succeed.

Oldtimer
10-24-2011, 02:52 PM
But given the results that this team achieved with DeRo and pretty much nobody else, what do you think the chances are of this team improving with DeRo coupled with a fantastic target man like Koevs and a solid holding mid like Frings?

Take an educated guess?

I'm pretty sure that's what Winter wanted. Winter didn't get rid of DeRo, Anselmi did.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 02:53 PM
I was one of those who didn't want him fired right away. I believed then (and still believed now) that you give someone time before you assess them. I don't regret doing that.

Where ML$E failed miserably was in not kicking his sorry behind out of the boardroom after the disaster in New York. A GM should never be given more than 3 coaches to succeed.

Time is a commodity in sports. You may give someone time before you assess them but you should also pre-assess them and evaluate as you go along. MLSE does not do that.

And being generous with time is a foolish move in sports. I agree with executive decisions like Liverpool's last year. Are you telling me Liverpool should have stuck with Hodgson for the year "to give him time" or was the quick move to replace him with Dalglish the right move?


I'm pretty sure that's what Winter wanted. Winter didn't get rid of DeRo, Anselmi did.

Nope, in the end it was Winter's call. And I don't care that he did it, it's WHEN he did it that pisses me off. And then to boot, he badmouthed him to other players and DeRo got wind of it. And you guys like to call him "professional".

Oldtimer
10-24-2011, 02:55 PM
And being generous with time is a foolish move in sports. I agree with executive decisions like Liverpool's last year. Are you telling me Liverpool should have stuck with Hodgson for the year "to give him time" or was the quick move to replace him with Dalglish the right move?

Agreed in Liverpool's case. It's just that with Mo his excuses were always such good ones (turf, Canadian quota, new team from scratch, yadda yadda). It took a while to realize the guy was a con artist.

Canary10
10-24-2011, 02:58 PM
Hodgson had a team to work with. Can't say the same is true in TFC's case.

Waggy
10-24-2011, 02:58 PM
What did I start?! I was trying to point out it'd be BS for us to get dicked around by MLS, and Dero 3.0 started? (4.0? 5.0?). We all know everyones arguments, we all know no-one will agree so why have the same argument again? If he wins MLS MVP good for him, he deserves it. If he gets a new big contract good for him, I hope he gets as much as possible in a nod to Toronto soccer, and also because it prevents DCU from using the money differently (as we in Toronto did). At this point, who cares? TFC's future is looking good, I don't think anyone can be unhappy with Frings and Koevs as DP's for us. We're negotiating to keep Plata and Ecks. We're talking about having the quarter final of the champions league at the skydome. Why are we arguing about things from almost a year ago still? The time for reflection at the end of the season involves reflecting on how TFC can improve over the squad we have today.

At this point, who cares why Dero left? Whether it was his fault or managements. If it's Deros fault, great, now he's no longer our problem. If it was managements fault, it'd seems that they've improved their negotiating skills from their first 5-6 weeks on the job based on their signings and the direction the team has gone all year. But if you disagree that they've improved by all means, you're entitled to your opinion. I'd just ask that you provide other examples of their ineptitude and inability to learn then the one case from before this past season even started. It'd help prove your point, and then it wouldn't seem like the argument is just someone who is (rightly or wrongly) seriously jaded from the Dero scenario bitching about MLSE. Then maybe the invisible ink'll go away.

brad
10-24-2011, 03:03 PM
Yeah but which is more likely? Speculation is never exact. You can never say anything for certain. But given the results that this team achieved with DeRo and pretty much nobody else, what do you think the chances are of this team improving with DeRo coupled with a fantastic target man like Koevs and a solid holding mid like Frings? In my opinion, Winter could have taken his rookie coaching abilities and done something with our defense because we sure as well would have been able to score a bucketload of goals.

Take an educated guess?

An educated guess would be that DeRo + Koevs + Frings would certainly be a better attack than we had - no question.

It is also quite possible that the rest of the team would have been worse as a result and we might have had a worse season.

My point is in such a murky league its not as simple as a cut and dry answer to such a question.

And while I realize the discussion is about how we looked this season, they also would have had to look to next season when signing Frings and Koevs if we still had DeRo. They were half cap hits for this season and full for next. We are also off the hook for DeRo's salary next year.

Could we have floated Frings, Koev's &JDG (who we are stuck with for another year) at full cap + DeRo and still have enough cap space to put a competitive team out?

v00d00daddy
10-24-2011, 03:06 PM
I agree. I don't think many people can dispute this fact

Sorry..but no such fact exists. And I can and will dispute this point.

Many have mentioned before me that....if keeping DeRo meant not getting one of Koev or Frings than I think its a pretty safe bet that we would NOT have been better this year with DeRo.

Now...if you wanna talk about fantasy land where we have Koev, Frings, JDG AND DeRo than yes...maybe we would have been better. But that's not possible due to the salary cap.. and even then I can make an argument for why wouldn't not have been better, even adding him as a fourth DP.

Long before the cheque signing I fell out of love with DeRo...not the man...but his game. And I'm not the only one. I like to see a team...not a bunch of individuals. I don't like to rely on one player to make or break my team.

And that's what DeRo is. While here I think he succeeded at the expense of the rest of the team. He was selfish on the ball and played wherever the hell he chose. I haven't watched him with DC so things may have changed, but while he was at TFC he played like a player that would never, ever fit with the current squad. I mean...where would he play? The current TFC system relies on players playing in certain positions and fulfilling certain roles....also being able to be interchangeable with teammates and assuming their responsibilities from time to time. If you ask most people you can't even get them to agree on what position the guy plays..let alone HOW he plays or what his role is out on the field.

It's just my opinion, but I don't think he has it in his game to be a cog in the machine. His game is all about going out there and doing whatever he thinks will bring success...both individual and team based.

For what it's worth (probably not all that much), TFC since August has performed better than any stretch of the team while he was here. Just sayin.

He's a great player but to suggest that it's a fact that we'd be better with him is just an opinion. Not a fact.

So Roogsy, getting angry that people suggest that we're better off without him is nothing to get angry about.

Chevy
10-24-2011, 03:13 PM
In terms of overall talent, the system the club is trying to implement, attitude and leadership:

Koov > DeRo
Frings > DeRo
DeGuz > DeRo (for the last few months at least)

We're better off without him.

JonO
10-24-2011, 03:19 PM
I hate getting into these threads, but I'm bored. Caveat: I love DeRo and wish he was still here. It is, no doubt, a by-product of the league we live in that he is not and it's something that I have come to terms with.

However: DC pre-Dero had a record of 4W-5L-6T, post Dero had a record of 5W-8L-6T So even with his prolific scoring, did he make DC better? Can't answer that, but he didn't have much of an effect on their record.

(now obviously, the question is how much worse DC would have been in the 2nd half od the seasons without him, but - just like speculating what TFC would have been like with DeRo - that's just a mental exercise..

Chevy
10-24-2011, 03:22 PM
^^ Wow JonO, so DeRo played for THREE clubs this year and all were no better with him than without him? That's really telling.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 03:25 PM
For what it's worth (probably not all that much), TFC since August has performed better than any stretch of the team while he was here. Just sayin.

Actually, this is factually incorrect as well. I know saying it helps your point but it doesn't change how inaccurate it is. And I ran the numbers (it is what I do) and we could have easily afforded him + 2 DPs with room to spare to shore up the backline. The problem with this team is that they overcomplicated the fix to this team and paid the price. But this team has yet to play a stretch that compares to the best stretch played under DeRo, and that was with JDG as your DP. They may one day do it but has yet to happen.

Either way, it is what it is. The man carried this team when there was jack shit on it but to get some people to recognize it is like making a Tea Party member accept that taxes are necessary.

The wife is sick so I am out. Thankfully this season is over it has been by far the worst for me. Watching a hometown boy get stabbed in the back not only by the team he worked hard for but by the fans. I am happy he found a better place to play and is already making more money, but it doesn't help me as a fan of TFC as I sit here and watch us applaud a team that finished with a -23 goal diff. We deserve what we get.

Waggy
10-24-2011, 03:26 PM
^^ Wow JonO, so DeRo played for THREE clubs this year and all were no better with him than without him? That's really telling.

That sort of speculation's totally unfair. Toronto was better after he left, but was that because he left or because the overall talent level improved and the players started to understand the system being put in? NY didn't succeed because of Dero? Or because one of their DP's was mailing it in, the other is a poacher more than a creator and the talent level outside of their top few players wasn't great? Plus they had the same problem as Toronto trying to integrate a bunch of key cogs to their team midstream. Dero and TFC didn't work out. Doesn't mean he's a bad player or totally toxic or anything.

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 03:32 PM
I hate getting into these threads, but I'm bored. Caveat: I love DeRo and wish he was still here. It is, no doubt, a by-product of the league we live in that he is not and it's something that I have come to terms with.

However: DC pre-Dero had a record of 4W-5L-6T, post Dero had a record of 5W-8L-6T So even with his prolific scoring, did he make DC better? Can't answer that, but he didn't have much of an effect on their record.

(now obviously, the question is how much worse DC would have been in the 2nd half od the seasons without him, but - just like speculating what TFC would have been like with DeRo - that's just a mental exercise..

Accounting for the games he did not play, DeRo actually helped improve the ppg of each team he played for and improved their goal diff. The stats were overwhelmingly in his favour until the last 3 weeks of the season where NY & DC went in different directions.

If you really want to look at stats, our own aren't great either. Our team played with a zero goal diff and a 1.15 ppg with the new DP. We were 4th worst when they started and finished 3rd worst. I guess they didn't make us better either.

I've got it all on a spreadsheet and I will bust it all out there if you guys are asking for it. I'd also be ready with the "stats aren't everything" excuse. You'll need it!

Oldtimer
10-24-2011, 03:37 PM
It's a mugs game to try to play the "what if."

I don't wish ill of DeRo, nor do I think it necessarily good that he left, but I recognize that things had gotten toxic between him and the club.

I hope he gets paid well. Most footballers are mercenaries these days, so I don't fault DeRo for holding out for the big payday. I hope United pay him very well.

Fort York Redcoat
10-24-2011, 03:46 PM
Watching a hometown boy get stabbed in the back not only by the team he worked hard for but by the fans.

By SOME fans. I don't recall a "Get rid of DeRo" Protest. Feel free to share how you crunched the numbers vs how the company behind the badge effed it up. That minus your apologist jibes would get a lot more, and better, discussion.

After you take care of familia, of course (Not a joke).

Canary10
10-24-2011, 03:48 PM
The frustrating thing is he still divides the fans, and you can't engage anyone that thinks he was hard done by.

Belfast_Boy
10-24-2011, 03:55 PM
wow, 4 pages and counting. any bets on where it'll end?

denime
10-24-2011, 03:58 PM
Good for him,good luck in the future DeRo,I hope to see you in Brasil 2014. :)

Other than that, It's time for us to move on !!

Chevy
10-24-2011, 03:59 PM
That sort of speculation's totally unfair. Toronto was better after he left, but was that because he left or because the overall talent level improved and the players started to understand the system being put in? NY didn't succeed because of Dero? Or because one of their DP's was mailing it in, the other is a poacher more than a creator and the talent level outside of their top few players wasn't great? Plus they had the same problem as Toronto trying to integrate a bunch of key cogs to their team midstream. Dero and TFC didn't work out. Doesn't mean he's a bad player or totally toxic or anything.

It's not speculation, it's fact. All three clubs did no better after he showed up. Cancer/Circusmaster in Toronto. Indifferent in NY. Padded his stats in DC to be sure. At the end of the day, he didn't help any of the three clubs - a "DP" worthy player would have been able to get at least one in three, right?

Sure there are other factors (there always are), and of course the DeRo lovers will spin it so it's "ABD" Anybody But Dero's fault. It doesn't mean that he's toxic, but doesn't prove that he's NOT.

Waggy
10-24-2011, 04:10 PM
It's not speculation, it's fact. All three clubs did no better after he showed up. Cancer/Circusmaster in Toronto. Indifferent in NY. Padded his stats in DC to be sure. At the end of the day, he didn't help any of the three clubs - a "DP" worthy player would have been able to get at least one in three, right?

Sure there are other factors (there always are), and of course the DeRo lovers will spin it so it's "ABD" Anybody But Dero's fault. It doesn't mean that he's toxic, but doesn't prove that he's NOT.

Let me ask you this: if Dero is the main reason that Toronto FC last year sucked, that DC United missed the playoffs this year and that NYRB were poor in the summer, then would it not stand to reason that he was the main reason for success in San Jose/Houston? One player (esp an offensive player) isn't responsible for Wins and Losses. All you can ask from Dero is to score and set up others. Which he did. His assist total was almost the same as his goal total.

If you put Koevs on Vancouver without Frings/Deguz/Plata, do you think he takes them to the playoffs? I assume you think he will take us there next year. I dunno if you can say Dero was lazy in NY. He was learning how to play with a new team and play in a smaller role then he's used to and he was only there for a few weeks. I'm not a Dero fan either. I def didn't want him to remain on TFC. My issue with Dero was his self evaluation. He is a very good MLS player who is on the back end of his career. he is not a guy on the back end of a career playing in major european leagues for big countries national teams. He is not a young guy dominating the league. I didn't want TFC to overpay him. I'm glad we didn't. I hope someone else does. But to deny his skill or ability is just ridiculous. He is one of the best homegrown players in MLS.

brad
10-24-2011, 04:18 PM
I've got it all on a spreadsheet and I will bust it all out there if you guys are asking for it. I'd also be ready with the "stats aren't everything" excuse. You'll need it!

I'd be curious to see some more numbers if you have them and/or it's not too much trouble. Not because I am asking you to back or prove your point or anything, but out of curiosity.

Canary10
10-24-2011, 04:23 PM
I'm doing my own quick analysis. Yes, bored at work. I'll share when I'm done (tomorrow sometime).

One thing the haters keep quoting is the -23 goal differential. Should remember that about half of that came on just 2 games (New York and Phildelphia). It's a bit misleading as an indicator.

Belfast_Boy
10-24-2011, 04:44 PM
A question for the Dero haters. Do you want him on the national team or is he too selfish, greedy etc?

Pookie
10-24-2011, 05:21 PM
Stabbed in the back by fans??

Fans upset that a player threatens a hold out, signs a fake cheque, then demands a trade are somehow at fault for not defending him. That's rich.

I guess submarining a coaching staff, on a supporter's website no less, that spends every day trying to make this club better is more of a noble cause.

Can't wait to see the one man "fire Winter" parade that has been warming up since the season began. It was on hold until the offseason. Now's the chance and who knows, we might even be fortunate enough to land Hans Backe. :facepalm:

Pookie
10-24-2011, 05:26 PM
A question for the Dero haters. Do you want him on the national team or is he too selfish, greedy etc?

To my knowledge, when it comes to country, he has never threatened to sit out to get more playing time, status, etc. So, no.

In fact, he has appeared to put Canada before everything else. That deserves respect.

Yohan
10-24-2011, 05:31 PM
To my knowledge, when it comes to country, he has never threatened to sit out to get more playing time, status, etc. So, no.

In fact, he has appeared to put Canada before everything else. That deserves respect.
I'd say him being gone for WCQ had a huge part in DC missing out on playoffs

rocker
10-24-2011, 05:43 PM
I'm glad we're not going to be paying him DP money.

v00d00daddy
10-24-2011, 06:12 PM
Actually, this is factually incorrect as well. I know saying it helps your point but it doesn't change how inaccurate it is. And I ran the numbers (it is what I do) and we could have easily afforded him + 2 DPs with room to spare to shore up the backline. The problem with this team is that they overcomplicated the fix to this team and paid the price. But this team has yet to play a stretch that compares to the best stretch played under DeRo, and that was with JDG as your DP. They may one day do it but has yet to happen.

Either way, it is what it is. The man carried this team when there was jack shit on it but to get some people to recognize it is like making a Tea Party member accept that taxes are necessary.

The wife is sick so I am out. Thankfully this season is over it has been by far the worst for me. Watching a hometown boy get stabbed in the back not only by the team he worked hard for but by the fans. I am happy he found a better place to play and is already making more money, but it doesn't help me as a fan of TFC as I sit here and watch us applaud a team that finished with a -23 goal diff. We deserve what we get.

So show me the stretch of games while DeRo was here that is better than TFC have been this year since the beginning of August.

7 Wins, 4 losses and 6 ties in all competitions is the goal you're trying to beat.
Find a 15-20 game stretch in 2009 or 2010 that compares with that.

Not to mention a decisive win in a huge game, against a good team, on the road, that got the team deeper in the CCL than they've ever been.
The 5-0 drubbing at NYRB comes to mind in terms of similar games of significance.

It'll be interesting what you come up with cause I checked before I posted my previous comments.

Canary10
10-24-2011, 06:16 PM
TFC were on a 50 point pace since Koev's and Fring's debut game.

Waggy
10-24-2011, 06:29 PM
wow, 4 pages and counting. any bets on where it'll end?

lucky number 13! I swear, the pro-anti dero crowds are so entrenched in their own positions they can't even see the other side anymore, they just lob shots across and hope to hit something. We made a trade and were significantly better after the trade then before, and the player we traded was significantly better after than before. That's a win win, as alex anthopoulos (by far the best gm in this city) would say that's the goal in any trade. We can be happy moving on without Dero, Dero can be happy moving on without TFC. No need for acrimony.

Oldtimer
10-24-2011, 08:25 PM
To my knowledge, when it comes to country, he has never threatened to sit out to get more playing time, status, etc. So, no.

In fact, he has appeared to put Canada before everything else. That deserves respect.

Well, he did refuse to play under Dale Mitchell, and was a big part in getting Dale fired. It was that which has led to Paul James's scathing criticisms of DeRo, justified or not.

menefreghista
10-24-2011, 09:55 PM
TFC were on a 50 point pace since Koev's and Fring's debut game.

Are you sure about that?

Edit: TFC's record in MLS since the two big DP signings was 3W-6D-4L. That's 15 points in 13 games. That's a pace for 39 points. Hardly playoff material.

TFC spent a shit load of money on two DP's to go from shit to mediocre. And a lot of fans are eating it up because of a couple of big wins. This team still needs a lot of work to get to where it wants to be.

TFC/Everton
10-24-2011, 10:22 PM
Good for you Dero

Roogsy
10-24-2011, 10:59 PM
So show me the stretch of games while DeRo was here that is better than TFC have been this year since the beginning of August.

7 Wins, 4 losses and 6 ties in all competitions is the goal you're trying to beat.
Find a 15-20 game stretch in 2009 or 2010 that compares with that.




The games between April 15 2010 and August 7 2010, TFC was running at a clip of 1.625 points per game in the league and if you include all competitions (The NCC) they were even better, running at a clip of 1.7 with 9 wins, 4 losses and 7 draws over 20 games. Your stretch reflects a winning percentage of 1.59 points per game over 17 games (decent but not as impressive). The 2010 run was a longer, better stretch against professional teams and not semi-pro teams like the ones I think may be included in your collection of data.

And by the way, for those who think our stretch this year was impressive. TFC went 3 wins in 13 games in the league and had a 1.15 ppg from the day the DPs started playing. Nowhere near playoff level (1.35) and less than the DP-less DC United. DC is +3 since DeRo arrived and is +5 in games he plays. TFC is even. At least they weren't as bad as the -23 we ran before they arrived, a goal diff we kept right to the end, but did not make a dent in despite the arrival of the DPs.

Keeping in mind that most teams in the playoffs are running single-digit positive goal differentials, that means DeRo accounts for at least half if not more of a good team's positive performance. Unless you're the top team in the league, (LA) with a +20.

And boom goes the dynamite.

Fort York Redcoat
10-25-2011, 05:58 AM
I'd say him being gone for WCQ had a huge part in DC missing out on playoffs

I'd say "Who cares?". I know you're just stating a fact but that's the leagues fault not the FIFA calendar or DeRo's in the least.

Fort York Redcoat
10-25-2011, 06:06 AM
T

And by the way, for those who think our stretch this year was impressive. TFC went 3 wins in 13 games in the league and had a 1.15 ppg from the day the DPs started playing. Nowhere near playoff level (1.35) and less than the DP-less DC United. DC is +3 since DeRo arrived and is +5 in games he plays. TFC is even. At least they weren't as bad as the -23 we ran before they arrived, a goal diff we kept right to the end, but did not make a dent in despite the arrival of the DPs.



When it comes down to it, is this tiny difference worth the tailspin the team was in off the pitch? Are you telling me sneaking into the playoffs is all you require at this point to become satisfied in a season at this point?

I think there are plenty here that don't think that .20ppg plus a playoff berth is enough. If you're in the same boat than this bickering is moot.

So glad this really isn't our problem anymore.

Pookie
10-25-2011, 07:23 AM
And by the way, for those who think our stretch this year was impressive. TFC went 3 wins in 13 games in the league and had a 1.15 ppg from the day the DPs started playing. Nowhere near playoff level (1.35) and less than the DP-less DC United.

Irrelevant stat when you consider that the first two games (July 20 and 23) were played with almost an entirely new roster with match fitness issues and a few of those games down the stretch were played with an eye towards the CCL.

Take off just two of those matches that occurred within a week of the roster overhaul and the "PPG" becomes 1.36. Playoff level.

Regardless, 13 games with all the circumstances around it is not the stuff of conclusions.


DC is +3 since DeRo arrived and is +5 in games he plays. TFC is even. At least they weren't as bad as the -23 we ran before they arrived, a goal diff we kept right to the end, but did not make a dent in despite the arrival of the DPs.

Keeping in mind that most teams in the playoffs are running single-digit positive goal differentials, that means DeRo accounts for at least half if not more of a good team's positive performance. Unless you're the top team in the league, (LA) with a +20.

I'm really trying to figure out if you really believe that one player has such a significant impact on Goal Differential and that somehow concludes his worth.

Because if that is where you are going, in 2009 and 2010 TFC were a combined -17 with DeRo in the line up.

Since you compare this with the new DPs, let's do that.

As you highlight, with our DPs, they were even. Or if you wanted to put an asterisk beside the first two games in mid-July and take them out for shits and giggles, they would be +3.

So, I guess swapping DeRo out and bringing in DPs has been a net positive +17 to +20 for the team. Even with our weak backline.

Well done Winter and Mariner.


And boom goes the dynamite.

You have to throw it mate or else it blows up in your face

123 elite
10-25-2011, 08:24 AM
You can spin it any way you want. You can narrow the gap right down to a single game against Columbus if you want. You can include games against non league Edmonton if you want. It makes no difference because the season is measured over what you do from the first game till the last game. The only stats that matter are 6 wins (1 away win) and 13 losses. 33 points. -23 goal difference. Thats MLS results where we see a real reflection of how our teams progressing not the padding out of results in games played against inferior opposition in the NCC or CCL. Saturday's performance suggests that there are still huge problems to address in this team that in my opinion are greater than the signs of improvement that the game against Dallas showed because Saturday has been the season norm whether its pre or post Frings while the game against Dallas was not the norm.

backbeat
10-25-2011, 08:39 AM
You can spin it any way you want. You can narrow the gap right down to a single game against Columbus if you want. You can include games against non league Edmonton if you want. It makes no difference because the season is measured over what you do from the first game till the last game. The only stats that matter are 6 wins (1 away win) and 13 losses. 33 points. -23 goal difference. Thats MLS results where we see a real reflection of how our teams progressing not the padding out of results in games played against inferior opposition in the NCC or CCL. Saturday's performance suggests that there are still huge problems to address in this team that in my opinion are greater than the signs of improvement that the game against Dallas showed because Saturday has been the season norm whether its pre or post Frings while the game against Dallas was not the norm.

i don't think that's true at all.

Saturday was the last game of the season and it meant absolutely nothing. Dallas did and they responded - saturday they were flat, period.

there have been massive strides this season - not in results obviously - but in team and more importantly organizational development for the longterm future - as Bob de Klerk said 'long term in Canada there is a lot of talent - i prefer to give them the time and develop a Canadian rather than going out and buying a player to get a result in one year' they are looking to put in place an organization that will be competitive year in and year out.

i fully believe they are doing just that and I support them....and it was certainly reassured to me in listening to the 4 parts of the year-end coaches interviews...

Canary10
10-25-2011, 08:53 AM
Are you sure about that?

Edit: TFC's record in MLS since the two big DP signings was 3W-6D-4L. That's 15 points in 13 games. That's a pace for 39 points. Hardly playoff material.

TFC spent a shit load of money on two DP's to go from shit to mediocre. And a lot of fans are eating it up because of a couple of big wins. This team still needs a lot of work to get to where it wants to be.

I'm including CCL games. They had a 1.48 points per game average since the Dallas game that Frings and Koevermans started.

123 elite
10-25-2011, 08:54 AM
i don't think that's true at all.

Saturday was the last game of the season and it meant absolutely nothing. Dallas did and they responded - saturday they were flat, period.

there have been massive strides this season - not in results obviously - but in team and more importantly organizational development for the longterm future - as Bob de Klerk said 'long term in Canada there is a lot of talent - i prefer to give them the time and develop a Canadian rather than going out and buying a player to get a result in one year' they are looking to put in place an organization that will be competitive year in and year out.

i fully believe they are doing just that and I support them....and it was certainly reassured to me in listening to the 4 parts of the year-end coaches interviews...


i don't have issues with the long term development (yet ) but i do have issues with the idea that saturday's game meant nothing. What about everyone that turned up ? Did we all want them to have a stroll around the park getting bossed by New England? Bollocks we did. If they can't raise it for the last home game then we are in deeper shit than i thought. Of course the other possibility is that they weren't actually good enough. And Ecks aside that was close to the strongest team he could have started with and almost all 'winter men' I came round to the idea this that we were rebuilding eventually but the very least i expected was not to end up 9 points behind a new team. Portland were building from scratch. I'm not even going to mention how far behind the other recent teams cause its just too depressing (cough 34 points cough)
Whats this to do with Dero and DC anyway. Symbolic of the shambolic perhaps.

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 09:08 AM
Irrelevant stat when you consider that the first two games (July 20 and 23) were played with almost an entirely new roster with match fitness issues and a few of those games down the stretch were played with an eye towards the CCL.

LOL! Just another way of saying "stats aren't everything".

If this is your argument, then you must be really impressed with DeRo's performance given 2 trades and 3 teams!

Your rationalizations never cease. People ask for stats, and I give them, and then it gets rationalized away. Very well. At least it's up there for people to see.


Because if that is where you are going, in 2009 and 2010 TFC were a combined -17 with DeRo in the line up.

I like how you have to combine TWO years to get to a number that is STILL not even close to what we achieved in the first half of this year with a -23. If that doesn't point to the complete ineptitude of this team in the first half, I don't know what does. If that's the way you do math, then you should also pro-rate the performance of this year, meaning this team was on course to break -40 for the year. Taking your own rationalization and applying it here, that means DeRo accounts for a +30 (40 goal diff - 17/2seasons) per year differential alone! A better stat than the ones our 2 DPs generated according to you.

See how ridiculous your logic is? That is a most ridiculous way to use the numbers.

What is undeniable are stats that are used in a straight-forward and clear manner. In the same numbers of games, DeRo had a positive effect on his team. That alone is worthy of accolades you choose to ignore. When compared to our own guys, who did a marvelous job I admit and yet this team still only managed a net zero performance, that stat looks even better. You can twist things any way you like, that is looking at it straight up and down and not twisting it to suit an argument.

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 09:12 AM
When it comes down to it, is this tiny difference worth the tailspin the team was in off the pitch? Are you telling me sneaking into the playoffs is all you require at this point to become satisfied in a season at this point?

I think there are plenty here that don't think that .20ppg plus a playoff berth is enough. If you're in the same boat than this bickering is moot.

So glad this really isn't our problem anymore.

The team was in a tailspin that was caused by Winter and that is why I dislike him. -23 in half a season? Really? On pace for a Vancouver-esque season? Really?

Is an extra 0.20 plus a playoff berth enough? You say no, and yet most likely that is what you will get next year and yet I bet next year it will be enough for everyone who will point to "progress" and worth writing off a year. Mindblowing as it is.

DichioTFC
10-25-2011, 09:20 AM
Oh DeRo, looks like that cheque will finally be cashed
<-------------------------------------------------- ;)

Personally, I hope he gets his money. He's a proven goalscorer, has flair and we all know how long he's cried about it. I'm just glad TFC is off the hook for it.

To me, this speaks volumes of DCU. It smacks of desperation for a club that is desperately trying to retain a dwindling fan base while entertaining offers of relocation.

werewolf
10-25-2011, 09:21 AM
LOL! Just another way of saying "stats aren't everything".

If this is your argument, then you must be really impressed with DeRo's performance given 2 trades and 3 teams!

Your rationalizations never cease. People ask for stats, and I give them, and then it gets rationalized away. Very well. At least it's up there for people to see.



Not to mention, two TFC games being randomly and arbitrarily taken out of the equation, but none of DeRo's first games with his team (first two in NY= 1 point, first in DC=1 point, lowering average). I am no math phd, but from what I recall, if you do something to one side of the problem, you must do it to the other side.

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 09:22 AM
Not to mention, two TFC games being randomly and arbitrarily taken out of the equation, but none of DeRo's first games with his team (first two in NY= 1 point, first in DC=1 point, lowering average). I am no math phd, but from what I recall, if you do something to one side of the problem, you must do it to the other side.

*touches nose*

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 09:24 AM
Oh DeRo, looks like that cheque will finally be cashed
<-------------------------------------------------- ;)

Personally, I hope he gets his money. He's a proven goalscorer, has flair and we all know how long he's cried about it. I'm just glad TFC is off the hook for it.

To me, this speaks volumes of DCU. It smacks of desperation for a club that is desperately trying to retain a dwindling fan base while entertaining offers of relocation.


And the only difference with Toronto is that the dwindling fanbase is much more forgiving. There is no desperation with TFC despite what they have given us for 5 seasons and that is exactly what I think is the problem and why I object to fellating management as much as supporters have.

Given what we have had to endure, there should be some urgency with this team. There is none. And that is our own fault.

menefreghista
10-25-2011, 09:28 AM
And the only difference with Toronto is that the dwindling fanbase is much more forgiving. There is no desperation with TFC despite what they have given us for 5 seasons and that is exactly what I think is the problem and why I object to fellating management as much as supporters have.

Given what we have had to endure, there should be some urgency with this team. There is none. And that is our own fault.

Its really only on this board that TFC's post-DP performance is being lauded. But when you look deeper into the league results, you can see that this team has barely moved up to average.

The rest of the fanbase is still waiting to be impressed. Hell, a lot didn't even bother showing up last Saturday (the announced attendance was bullshit).

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 09:32 AM
Its really only on this board that TFC's post-DP performance is being lauded. But when you look deeper into the league results, you can see that this team has barely moved up to average.

The rest of the fanbase is still waiting to be impressed. Hell, a lot didn't even bother showing up last Saturday (the announced attendance was bullshit).

And that is reflected in our position in the standings. We were either 3rd or 4th worst when the DPs arrived and we finished 3rd worst.

YOu are correct though that there is a difference on this board than there is out there. I complain about the lack of support players get, but I should really qualify that and refer to the supporters groups and their websites vs the general fan out there who I have found to be overall, generally supportive of players and in Dwayne's case, his problems with TFC.

Fort York Redcoat
10-25-2011, 09:32 AM
And the only difference with Toronto is that the dwindling fanbase is much more forgiving. There is no desperation with TFC despite what they have given us for 5 seasons and that is exactly what I think is the problem and why I object to fellating management as much as supporters have.

Given what we have had to endure, there should be some urgency with this team. There is none. And that is our own fault.

This is absolute Bollocks. Not sharing your bitterness constitutes fellating management.

No desperation? RECORD amount of transfers for the team this season league wide. Does that mark a team as idle? Incompetent you can get away with but not idle.

Simply put this bitterness sounds like you've lost the plot Roogs.

C.Ronaldo
10-25-2011, 09:47 AM
finally,

give him what he deserves

MVPs deserve DP money.

Canary10
10-25-2011, 09:54 AM
Winter was not brought in to figure out how to make the team he got in January work. He was brought in to create a system and bring the players in who could play the system. That's the big difference when comparing to Roy Hodgson at Liverpool, whose job was to get the players he had playing top 4 EPL football. He didn't, and was fired.

Most managers don't get to take the approach Winter was handed, but the ones who do are given the time to do it. He was smart to get himself 3 years to do it, because the only way you can do it is to have time.

The question is, was TFC's ownership right in taking the long view, or should they have done what Roogsy is suggesting and take the Roy Hodgson route. I think the former personally but that's my opinion.

DichioTFC
10-25-2011, 10:00 AM
And the only difference with Toronto is that the dwindling fanbase is much more forgiving. There is no desperation with TFC despite what they have given us for 5 seasons and that is exactly what I think is the problem and why I object to fellating management as much as supporters have.

Given what we have had to endure, there should be some urgency with this team. There is none. And that is our own fault.

LOL oh Roogsy.... so passionate, yet so divisive. My response had nothing to do with TFC or its management btw.

Also, I don't think supporters of TFC management, as I am, will approve of your comment about us "fellating management" because we disagree with your opinion.

Speaking to your point - TFC are one of the only teams in the league with 3 DPs, one of the only teams in the league to progress past CCL group stage. We have a great core group of players and a coach / GM who have shown competence as the season continued. I agree that there are problems and deficiencies, but my argument is that we're on the road to improvement.

Speaking to my original point - Good for DeRo. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 10:14 AM
This is absolute Bollocks. Not sharing your bitterness constitutes fellating management.

No but applauding success that hasn't happened yet does in my books. I am not expecting people to be as bitter as I am, but I am indeed surprised some segments of fans are as content as they are. Tell me, other than the "bitter" element on this board that you complain about, where is the pressure coming from for this team to succeed? Please don't say "from themselves" that would just put the icing on the cake.

I chose not to go to the Town Hall because I feared what I was going to see. And yet what I heard confirms my worst fears. A team in the middle of it's worst season since it began, a season that is by all measures worse than the previous season where the supporters finally stood up and complained and gave TFC executives some measure of grief, we come in under those circumstances and ask pussycat questions and thank Winter for the work he has done.

Sometimes, I get the feelings the crazy ultras in Europe have it right. Like I said before, Winter/Mariner must be ecstatic to put up the numbers they did and have people thank them and congratulate them. They will never want to go back to Europe where such performance would not be tolerated.


No desperation? RECORD amount of transfers for the team this season league wide. Does that mark a team as idle? Incompetent you can get away with but not idle.

Simply put this bitterness sounds like you've lost the plot Roogs.

What's the expression? Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic? While I don't think TFC is the Titanic, looking busy is hardly qualifies as success. Who said anything about TFC being idle? Stop making stuff up.

Have I lost the plot? Or are the ones that aren't happy with a team that places in the bottom 3 (AGAIN!) and the worst goal diff in the league have a reason to be upset? I guess we can't all be happy with the worst stats in the league and future promises that haven't been realized yet. Year 5 and we're starting from scratch but being unhappy with that is losing the "plot". Sure...

With that kind of thinking, we're going to be a shit team for a long time. Do you know what the difference is between fanbase that gets a winning team and a fanbase that gets a middling mediocre team? Demands and expectations of excellence. Which do you think TFC fans fall under?

Oldtimer
10-25-2011, 10:21 AM
I'm not judging Winter/Mariner/BDK until the middle of next season, so stats with DeRo, without DeRo are pointless.

DeRo is a very good player. He couldn't sign a deal with Toronto. Life goes on.

Couchy81
10-25-2011, 10:24 AM
The real season started in August so continuing to belly-ache about the 2011 campaign from the very first game is just beating a dead horse. Like I posted in a thread from mid summer responding to the same people about the same topic, RSL's turnaround from shit to contender with Kreis began in mid-August of the year he started coaching. This is all I will say on the matter.

yellowfellow
10-25-2011, 10:34 AM
I am happy that Dero gets his money. I am also happy that TFC is playing some good football at the end of the season and made it to CCL QF. They play like a team instead of one guy trying to do it all.

denime
10-25-2011, 10:35 AM
Why are we discussing TFC season in DP DeRo thread? We are repeating ourselves over and over,nothing good ever came from previous DeRo threads.

MOVE ON,LET IT GO

Thanks!

123 elite
10-25-2011, 10:40 AM
The real season started in August so continuing to belly-ache about the 2011 campaign from the very first game is just beating a dead horse. Like I posted in a thread from mid summer responding to the same people about the same topic, RSL's turnaround from shit to contender with Kreis began in mid-August of the year he started coaching. This is all I will say on the matter.

this is the thing that bugs me the most. Utter nonsense. It didn't start in August. It started in March. You don't get an August onwards trophy. You don't get a pre-August trophy. You don't get special conditions for a new manager. Everyone knows when the season begins and everyone has a period in the middle to adjust. If our management needs extra time in a season in order for the team to be able to get an extra point or two then they should quit. Anyone that thinks the season begins in August needs to find a different sport to follow because this isn't it

DichioTFC
10-25-2011, 10:48 AM
Why are we discussing TFC season in DP DeRo thread? We are repeating ourselves over and over,nothing good ever came from previous DeRo threads.

MOVE ON,LET IT GO

Thanks!

http://i55.tinypic.com/24wdp5k.png

ensco
10-25-2011, 10:55 AM
I am for the players. I really hope Dero goes to Europe and shows something there. That is what would actually be good for the CMNT, which will likely have big games next spring, and that's something we all still care about, a lot!

We're not "better off" because Dero left. But he had to go.

The team, by not honouring verbal commitments that Mo had made to Dero and Cann, has chosen it's path. So be it.

The cheque signing was bad, but other things were worse. I found the team owners/managers conduct in the Dero and Cann sagas reprehensible, but can do nothing about it, other than cut my spend on the team, which I have done. I can't give up the team. FOs come and go, but I/we will be here.

I have moved on. The team has gotten better lately. But I am wary. Like they say in the home inspection business, there's never just one cockroach.

Canary10
10-25-2011, 11:04 AM
Honestly, he's never going to play in Europe.

rocker
10-25-2011, 11:11 AM
this is the thing that bugs me the most. Utter nonsense. It didn't start in August. It started in March. You don't get an August onwards trophy. You don't get a pre-August trophy. You don't get special conditions for a new manager. Everyone knows when the season begins and everyone has a period in the middle to adjust. If our management needs extra time in a season in order for the team to be able to get an extra point or two then they should quit. Anyone that thinks the season begins in August needs to find a different sport to follow because this isn't it

I think he means that, with all the changes that occured, the season essentially began in August.

Also, regarding the bolded part -- Bruce Arena didn't have much success at LA until the summer of his first full season at the helm. When he took over from Gullit the previous year, his final 10 games or so were awful (worse PPG record than Gullit's that season). Then to start the next season at the helm, LA was just tying games (not winning that many).

So if you were the management, you probably would have fired Bruce Arena before the success came.

All good coaches need a half season or so to turn a team around. Nobody, and I repeat nobody, has walked into a bad situation in this league and turned it around completely in short order.

It's utter nonsense to not give a coach at least half a season to turn around a bad team and at least a year or two to see reasonable success.

Fort York Redcoat
10-25-2011, 11:13 AM
There is no desperation with TFC despite what they have given us for 5 seasons and that is exactly what I think is the problem and why I object to fellating management as much as supporters have.

Given what we have had to endure, there should be some urgency with this team. There is none. And that is our own fault.


This is absolute Bollocks. Not sharing your bitterness constitutes fellating management.

No desperation? RECORD amount of transfers for the team this season league wide. Does that mark a team as idle? Incompetent you can get away with but not idle.

Simply put this bitterness sounds like you've lost the plot Roogs.





Who said anything about TFC being idle? Stop making stuff up.





Yes. Let's mince words again to discredit the entire argument.

A record number of transfers can be done in a calm manner w/o desperation. That is why you said There is no desperation with TFC.

rocker
10-25-2011, 11:15 AM
Yes. Let's mince words again to discredit the entire argument.

A record number of transfers can be done in a calm manner w/o desperation. That is why you said There is no desperation with TFC.

I'm trying to figure out what "desperation" would mean in practical terms.

In other words, if you're a "desperate" general manager or coach, what would you do differently than what TFC has done?

I would say the Mista signing was a good example of desperation. LOL.

ensco
10-25-2011, 11:18 AM
I would say the Mista signing was a good example of desperation

More likely it's a good example of bunging.

DichioTFC
10-25-2011, 11:25 AM
Honestly, he's never going to play in Europe.

Agreed. A more realistic hope is that DeRo stays healthy to get Canada into the World Cup, which is the only reason I remain invested in this man's career.

123 elite
10-25-2011, 11:27 AM
I think he means that, with all the changes that occured, the season essentially began in August.

Also, regarding the bolded part -- Bruce Arena didn't have much success at LA until the summer of his first full season at the helm. When he took over from Gullit the previous year, his final 10 games or so were awful (worse PPG record than Gullit's that season). Then to start the next season at the helm, LA was just tying games (not winning that many).

So if you were the management, you probably would have fired Bruce Arena before the success came.

All good coaches need a half season or so to turn a team around. Nobody, and I repeat nobody, has walked into a bad situation in this league and turned it around completely in short order.

It's utter nonsense to not give a coach at least half a season to turn around a bad team and at least a year or two to see reasonable success.


No ... i agree he needs a couple of seasons and i'm prepared to give him more time. I renewed after all. But i won't cut him any slack by saying 'well the real season didn't begin till august'. Its been a dreadful season. Including since August. (conveniently August i might add.... why not july) Our results since haven't been earth shattering so lets not kid ourselves. One away win and a whole load of draws we could have won. I don't rate the CCL at all. Its one MLS team and one Mexican team. Qualifying isn't really much more than doing the job against a lesser (with respect) Central American team then picking up one decent result and hoping for a result elsewhere. Thats what happened. Not some great tactical genius by Winter. Koev and Frings aside this team really isn't much better than last years. If anything happens to those two then what. I'm prepared to see what he can do in the close season but if it has to again wait till the transfer window to come in July next year to get an away win then i think that will be it for me

Pookie
10-25-2011, 11:33 AM
People ask for stats, and I give them, and then it gets rationalized away. Very well. At least it's up there for people to see.

Any study includes a discussion of variables.

But since you are generous, I'd like to ask for the CCL stats for all MLS teams. PPG if you don't mind. Thank you.


I like how you have to combine TWO years to get to a number that is STILL not even close to what we achieved in the first half of this year with a -23.

Take it year by year then. -8 and -9 with DeRo.

-23 prior to our roster overhaul.

0 after it.

As you say, stats are stats.


Do you know what the difference is between fanbase that gets a winning team and a fanbase that gets a middling mediocre team? Demands and expectations of excellence. Which do you think TFC fans fall under?

....


I complain about the lack of support players get, but I should really qualify that and refer to the supporters groups and their websites vs the general fan out there who I have found to be overall, generally supportive of players and in Dwayne's case, his problems with TFC.

Confused. Are these TFC fans that are content with mediocrity the same ones that are on DeRo's side? Sign him and embrace the status quo?

Personally, I'm not content with -8 and -9 goal differentials and missing the playoffs twice with a captain that thinks "me first."

I demand more and I tend to think this new roster with a 0 goal differential, strong club first leadership and a strong performance in the CCL is a step forward from the status quo embraced by those who accept mediocrity and wish they had DeRo back.

Thank you and once again I look forward to the CCL PPG stats.

123 elite
10-25-2011, 12:03 PM
^

i get -4 in the MLS since July 20th. Isn't that the date we are talking about for roster overhaul ?

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 12:03 PM
Yes. Let's mince words again to discredit the entire argument.

A record number of transfers can be done in a calm manner w/o desperation. That is why you said There is no desperation with TFC.

My use of the word desparation was more to convey a sense of urgency which this team does not reflect. Not some knee-jerk, unplanned gamble that's a long-shot to pay off. I am talking about an intense desire to please the fans sooner rather than later that is just not there. There is an element of taking fans for granted that "they will still be there regardless, so we can take as long as we like and see if this thing works out." As the Globe today pointed out: "We're on the right track, where have we heard that before?" When fans are happy with a 15th place finish and a -23 goal diff, it's not hard to understand why they'd be so complacent. All they have to do is finish with an average goal diff and a mediocre place in the standings and they can say "Look! Progress!" And fans will eat it up. That's what Mo did, which is why he lasted as long as he did.

I've used it before, I will use it again. I think the most appropriate cliché that applies in this situation is an oldie but a goodie.

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

We're doing the exact same thing we did before with Mo Johnston and it's difficult to watch. Like a car crash in slow motion.

Pookie
10-25-2011, 12:09 PM
^

i get -4 in the MLS since July 20th. Isn't that the date we are talking about for roster overhaul ?

Good point I get -4 as well. I was using Roogsy's stats. I really shouldn't take them at face value.

Canary10
10-25-2011, 12:11 PM
^

i get -4 in the MLS since July 20th. Isn't that the date we are talking about for roster overhaul ?

Think you're right. According to my rival spreadsheet to Roogsy's :)

Since Frings (All Comps)Games21PPG1.48Point over 34 games50Goals scored per game1.43Goals conceded per game1.52GF30GA32

Since Frings (MLS)Games13PPG1.15Point over 34 games39Goals scored per game1.46Goals conceded per game1.77GF19GA 23

Canary10
10-25-2011, 12:12 PM
Oops, that totally didn't format. It's sorta legible.

ManUtd4ever
10-25-2011, 12:12 PM
I don't quite understand why a debate has spawned regarding the justification to continue supporting this club.

The last time I checked, no one has held a gun to anyone's head.

It's simple. If you don't feel optimistic about the direction of this organization, don't renew your seasons tickets. If you are completely fed up, stop supporting the club altogether.

I will never understand the incessant need to convince TFC supporters (on a TFC supporters forum no less) that they are mindless sheeple for feeling enthusiastic and optimistic towards their hometown club.

123 elite
10-25-2011, 12:19 PM
My use of the word desparation was more to convey a sense of urgency which this team does not reflect. Not some knee-jerk, unplanned gamble that's a long-shot to pay off. I am talking about an intense desire to please the fans sooner rather than later that is just not there. There is an element of taking fans for granted that "they will still be there regardless, so we can take as long as we like and see if this thing works out." As the Globe today pointed out: "We're on the right track, where have we heard that before?" When fans are happy with a 15th place finish and a -23 goal diff, it's not hard to understand why they'd be so complacent. All they have to do is finish with an average goal diff and a mediocre place in the standings and they can say "Look! Progress!" And fans will eat it up. That's what Mo did, which is why he lasted as long as he did.

I've used it before, I will use it again. I think the most appropriate cliché that applies in this situation is an oldie but a goodie.

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

We're doing the exact same thing we did before with Mo Johnston and it's difficult to watch. Like a car crash in slow motion.


You just dont get it do you. Look... its simple. You only count the season after the summer transfer deadline. So you ignore all the roster changes prior to that and the results. Then after the transfer deadline you ignore the next 6 weeks while the players get used to each other. Then you select a game from september and one from october. Hey presto ... 2 away wins and a goal difference of +5. WHAT A SEASON!!!!

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 12:20 PM
Good point I get -4 as well. I was using Roogsy's stats. I really shouldn't take them at face value.

I didn't add a field for this stat on my spreadsheet because I was using the standings as of a certain date which I thought I recalled we were sitting at -23. Since we ended the year at -23 I thought we were unchanged from the pre-DP season. I guess we were sitting at -19. I will use that as a starting point. Now that you guys pointed it out to me, I included a formula to count it and got these numbers from the Dallas game onward:

19 goals for
23 goals against

-4 the goal diff

But I don't get it, you're using a stat that points to an even worse performance for TFC during the period than the one I was giving them credit for? Pro-rated over the year, that's a -10 goal diff and still worse than 15 other teams.

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 12:21 PM
You just dont get it do you. Look... its simple. You only count the season after the summer transfer deadline. So you ignore all the roster changes prior to that and the results. Then after the transfer deadline you ignore the next 6 weeks while the players get used to each other. Then you select a game from september and one from october. Hey presto ... 2 away wins and a goal difference of +5. WHAT A SEASON!!!!


And don't forget not to apply the same conditions to any other players or teams. :D

Oldtimer
10-25-2011, 12:21 PM
"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

We're doing the exact same thing we did before with Mo Johnston and it's difficult to watch. Like a car crash in slow motion.

ML$E may still be the owners, but there has been a big change in leadership.

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/toronto/files/imagecache/620x350/image_nodes/2011/09/TFCTrio.jpg

look at Winter's eyes, he'll look you in the eye.

Now look at this guy, he would never look you in the eye. It was as if he was hiding something. ;)

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/toronto/files/imagecache/620x350/image_nodes/2010/07/MoJohnston1.jpg

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/gfx/johnston-mo070115cp.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UT7CBtNmKzM/TXXaN2HCbeI/AAAAAAAABuA/4F0YwGs4Zio/s1600/alcolo.jpg

Canary10
10-25-2011, 12:22 PM
The only ones really debating whether TFC has improved is us. In virtually every other blog, commentary, whatever that follows MLS, the general consensus is that TFC is going to be an excellent team next year and will be a force to be reckoned with (check out the Big Soccer match thread of the Dallas game for example). They haven't all had the five years of having your heart ripped out, but sometimes it's good to get that outside commentary.

Someone said to stop talking about TFC on this thread that is about DeRo. Good idea.

dow117
10-25-2011, 12:33 PM
DC United are going to sign DeRo's cheque:

Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/soccer/story/2011-10-23/united-eyes-long-term-deal-with-dwayne-de-rosario (http://aol.sportingnews.com/soccer/story/2011-10-23/united-eyes-long-term-deal-with-dwayne-de-rosario#ixzz1beEvemjB)


* United aren't saying how much DeRo will get paid. $500k? $600k? $100 billion? It will be interesting to see where he ends up. I would guess less than $1 million.

Talk about out of touch .... "gotta do what's right for my family" bullshit. So playing in your home town for a game you love and near to your family is not worth it. This is what the 99% are talking about .... Stay away Dero and count your money ; that's what you really want. Now you have , so F%% Off.

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 12:36 PM
It's simple. If you don't feel optimistic about the direction of this organization, don't renew your seasons tickets. If you are completely fed up, stop supporting the club altogether.

And there it is. The ultimate example of why I am so frustrated. My options are to a) be happy with whatever the club does or b) not support the club at all.

Fundamentally, I just don't believe supporters = cheerleaders. Never have. A supporter's club is supposed to influence management into making proper decisions and thinking beyond the bottom line because silly me, I thought we all agreed leaving it in the hands of Anselmi & Co is a bad idea. We have dropped that responsibility and there just isn't anyone around anymore to pick up the cause and take it on. And that's too bad because it is a wasted opportunity to effect real change in the club. Instead, of being the voice of the fans, supporters have become the sideshow, a part of the gameday spectacle the team touts and promotes without the influence to impact overall performance.

But that is a whole different issue. And now even I admit this has gone way beyond the DeRo issue.

I will leave this topic with these thoughts. People may not like DeRo and may be happy with him gone. But maybe someday they will look at 2011 and realize that we didn't need to throw away an entire year with a better plan and better decisions. Dwayne DeRosario may not be the greatest footballer in the world, but he is one of the greatest to play in MLS, and we had him right here. A local boy, willing to give his all. And gave him away only to have him go on and have a spectacular year. That success could have been achieved towards our own benefit. In every measurable metric, DeRo outperformed even our own expectations for a top player in this league, and definitely outperformed everyone on our squad. Some day hopefully, this team will have someone or something that puts real pressure and real accountability on to them. That day has yet to arrive.

So to conclude, I hope DeRo gets the MVP, but I am not sure he will because I do believe playoffs should be a major consideration and that objective was not reached. And I would be ok with that, it's a fair assessment. Much fairer than the assessment his own hometown soccer fans give him.

Pookie
10-25-2011, 12:44 PM
In every measurable metric, DeRo outperformed even our own expectations for a top player in this league, and definitely outperformed everyone on our squad.

Uh, to reach that conclusion, did you pro-rate Danny Koevermans' stats over an entire season like you've done with all that goal differential mumbo jumbo?

Oh, and PPG in CCL stats?

Thank you.

Chevy
10-25-2011, 12:48 PM
I don't quite understand why a debate has spawned regarding the justification to continue supporting this club.

The last time I checked, no one has held a gun to anyone's head.

It's simple. If you don't feel optimistic about the direction of this organization, don't renew your seasons tickets. If you are completely fed up, stop supporting the club altogether.

I will never understand the incessant need to convince TFC supporters (on a TFC supporters forum no less) that they are mindless sheeple for feeling enthusiastic and optimistic towards their hometown club.

Very well said ManU. There is sometimes a fine line between passion and bitterness and a select few have crossed that line and simply either fail to or don't have the capacity to realize it.

I enjoy the entertainment value of it, but truth be told it's rather sad.

Darlofletch
10-25-2011, 12:51 PM
The games between April 15 2010 and August 7 2010, TFC was running at a clip of 1.625 points per game in the league and if you include all competitions (The NCC) they were even better, running at a clip of 1.7 with 9 wins, 4 losses and 7 draws over 20 games. Your stretch reflects a winning percentage of 1.59 points per game over 17 games (decent but not as impressive). The 2010 run was a longer, better stretch against professional teams and not semi-pro teams like the ones I think may be included in your collection of data.....

And boom goes the dynamite.

Haven't finished this thread yet but while we're in the mood for bringing up old arguments.

Pre-Ki! Pre-Ki! still the only coach we've had that's been able to organise a decent defence.

and

August 7th, then it all went wrong, what happened to cause that? did de ro all of a sudden stop playing? nope, he kept going for the next month and a bit while the season went down the tubes. it was Chad getting injured, that caused it to go tits up.

and boom goes the dynamite.

ensco
10-25-2011, 12:58 PM
I don't quite understand why a debate has spawned regarding the justification to continue supporting this club.

The last time I checked, no one has held a gun to anyone's head.

It's simple. If you don't feel optimistic about the direction of this organization, don't renew your seasons tickets. If you are completely fed up, stop supporting the club altogether.

I will never understand the incessant need to convince TFC supporters (on a TFC supporters forum no less) that they are mindless sheeple for feeling enthusiastic and optimistic towards their hometown club.

I could just as easily make the case that any attempt to portray the second half of the season as anything less than huge progress by Winter and Mariner, is stomped on.

Your premise is wrong. It's a public discussion board, not a supporters site. For now.

There is certainly a very public group that want it to be only a supporters site, which I think would require going members only. I guess we'll see what happens.

Darlofletch
10-25-2011, 01:02 PM
But I don't get it, you're using a stat that points to an even worse performance for TFC during the period than the one I was giving them credit for?... Pro-rated over the year, that's a -10 goal diff and still worse than 15 other teams.

are some people actually looking at the picture honestly and sticking with facts even if it doesn't help them. Are they trying to get to the truth rather than desperately trying to win a debate? fools.

Canary10
10-25-2011, 01:04 PM
"August 7th, then it all went wrong, what happened to cause that? did de ro all of a sudden stop playing? nope, he kept going for the next month and a bit while the season went down the tubes. it was Chad getting injured, that caused it to go tits up."

Last season ended in August. Didn't you know?

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 01:08 PM
"August 7th, then it all went wrong, what happened to cause that? did de ro all of a sudden stop playing? nope, he kept going for the next month and a bit while the season went down the tubes. it was Chad getting injured, that caused it to go tits up."

Last season ended in August. Didn't you know?

Voodoo specifically requested a run of 15-20 games that showed the best stretch they ever played under DeRo. That is what I provided. Talk about taking something out of context. Should I simply have trotted out the entire 2010 season? Which still shows better stats than 2011 by the way? How would you have answered the question he posed?

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 01:09 PM
are some people actually looking at the picture honestly and sticking with facts even if it doesn't help them. Are they trying to get to the truth rather than desperately trying to win a debate? fools.


And I am not? Show me somewhere I have mispresented the facts in my favour.

Canary10
10-25-2011, 01:09 PM
Voodoo specifically requested a run of 15-20 games that showed the best stretch they ever played under DeRo. That is what I provided. Talk about taking something out of context. Should I simply have trotted out the entire 2010 season? Which still shows better stats than 2011 by the way? How would you have answered the question he posed?

I'm making fun of all of us. Calm down.

123 elite
10-25-2011, 01:22 PM
At the end of the day its all Dero's fault

JDG being invisible for 3 years …Dero's fault
Marvell Wynne giving away penalties …Dero's fault
Iro giving away everything…. Dero's fault
The first half of this season….Dero's fault
Amado Guevara missing in action … Dero's fault
Mista…. Dero's fault
Garcia…. Dero's fault
Preki….Dero's fault
Mo…. Dero's fault
falling apart in NYC….Dero's fault

Because he signed an invisible cheque.

ManUtd4ever
10-25-2011, 01:22 PM
And there it is. The ultimate example of why I am so frustrated. My options are to a) be happy with whatever the club does or b) not support the club at all.


I did not insinuate that at all. As the saying goes, to each his own. Your options are to feel and react however you like with respect to your attitude towards the organization as a whole.

I just don't comprehend the desire to convince others (that are justifiably optimistic at this point) of your negative outlook regarding the progress (or lack thereof in your opinion) that was made this season.

While you have been apt at pointing out your perceived crticisms of the new management regime, I haven't read a single post of yours actually giving management any credit whatsoever for the positive results that ensued following the drastic roster overhaul during the summer transfer window.

The roster was in complete shambles when Winter and Mariner were hired, and the lone star player on the club demanded to be traded. In retrospect, I acknowledge that TFC did not receive an equitable return for DeRo, although a 2012 1st round draft pick is still pending from the New York trade.

However, management has also acquired the likes of Plata, Eckersley, Frings, Koevermans, Johnson, Avila, Marosevic, and Dunfield who have collectively made a tremendous impact since their arrivals (contributing a combined total of almost 30 goals in all competitions), while most of the players that were released (Tchani ,Gordon, Santos, Attakora, Peterson) have had little to no impact with their respective new clubs.

If you were truly objective in your analysis, you would surely be able to acknowledge the positive ramifications of all the player personnel moves this season, which significantly outweigh the negative repercussions in my opinion.

ManUtd4ever
10-25-2011, 01:23 PM
I could just as easily make the case that any attempt to portray the second half of the season as anything less than huge progress by Winter and Mariner, is stomped on.

Your premise is wrong. It's a public discussion board, not a supporters site. For now.

There is certainly a very public group that want it to be only a supporters site, which I think would require going members only. I guess we'll see what happens.

I did not inisinuate that at all Ensco. See my response above to Roogsy.

Darlofletch
10-25-2011, 01:38 PM
And I am not? Show me somewhere I have mispresented the facts in my favour.

I'm not saying you have. I was just amused by your shock at other people pointing out facts that didn't help their own side of the argument. that's all.

eustacchio
10-25-2011, 01:44 PM
At the end of the day its all Dero's fault

JDG being invisible for 3 years …Dero's fault
Marvell Wynne giving away penalties …Dero's fault
Iro giving away everything…. Dero's fault
The first half of this season….Dero's fault
Amado Guevara missing in action … Dero's fault
Mista…. Dero's fault
Garcia…. Dero's fault
Preki….Dero's fault
Mo…. Dero's fault
falling apart in NYC….Dero's fault

Because he signed an invisible cheque.

Well, this one I think can partially be attributed to De Ro :)

Brooker
10-25-2011, 01:49 PM
Well, this one I think can partially be attributed to De Ro :)

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/taxidriver.gif

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 01:53 PM
I did not insinuate that at all. As the saying goes, to each his own. Your options are to feel and react however you like with respect to your attitude towards the organization as a whole.

I just don't comprehend the desire to convince others (that are justifiably optimistic at this point) of your negative outlook regarding the progress (or lack thereof in your opinion) that was made this season.

While you have been apt at pointing out your perceived crticisms of the new management regime, I haven't read a single post of yours actually giving management any credit whatsoever for the positive results that ensued following the drastic roster overhaul during the summer transfer window.

The roster was in complete shambles when Winter and Mariner were hired, and the lone star player on the club demanded to be traded. In retrospect, I acknowledge that TFC did not receive an equitable return for DeRo, although a 2012 1st round draft pick is still pending from the New York trade.

However, management has also acquired the likes of Plata, Eckersley, Frings, Koevermans, Johnson, Avila, Marosevic, and Dunfield who have collectively made a tremendous impact since their arrivals (contributing a combined total of almost 30 goals in all competitions), while most of the players that were released (Tchani ,Gordon, Santos, Attakora, Peterson) have had little to no impact with their respective new clubs.

If you were truly objective in your analysis, you would surely be able to acknowledge the positive ramifications of all the player personnel moves this season, which significantly outweigh the negative repercussions in my opinion.

I will admit, there is an excessive amount of posts on my part that address the negatives and not enough of the positives, which I admit there are with this team.

To me, it's a natural reaction to see the excessive positive posts about this team and not nearly enough acknowledgement of mistakes and negative performance issues.

Maybe I am making up for that lack of balance, because I will admit, my negativity is not balanced, although even adding balance to it I still can't reach the level of positivity I see from some.

brad
10-25-2011, 02:12 PM
I love stats - I really do. They are incredible powerful, easy to manipulate to get your point across (to be clear - I`m not implying anyone did that in this thread), and also woefully dangerous when misused.

Analyzing the teams performance based on W-L-D and goals for and against is interesting but only tells part of the story when trying to gauge progress instead of results.

To get a true statistical analysis of whether or not the new players actually improved the team you need a whole lot more data than that. You need the results data correlated with when players were on the pitch vs when they were off it. You need to adjust for performance of players as the match progresses as they tire. You need to look at metrics like possession in the various areas of the field, pass completion ratios, pass completion sequences. Trace goals back to whether the creation or concession started, and a whole bunch of other things.

Let me give you an direct example - this is an explanation from DeKlerk - not from me. Koeves tired out in a lot of matches and needed to be subbed out. We have no squad depth so we had no one else that could sub in up front and do the same job of holding up the ball and keeping the pressure off the back 4. So the best of the worst choices they had was put on another defender and hope for the best. More often than not we conceded and dropped points.

No just looking at raw numbers would say that Koeves did not improve those games. Looking at a more in depth statistical profile of what actually happened might show you that Koevs did improve the team when he was on the pitch and everything fell apart when he came off, or maybe when he tired and his performance dropped. If that`s the case, it`s not that he didn`t improve the team, it`s that we didn`t have the depth we needed.

Now, none of this is really relevant when looking at how we did this season from a results perspective. The table doesn`t lie. Where it is is interesting is looking forward to see if we have sufficiently improved the base enough that we have a platform to build on.

Incidentally, Earl Cochrane said that they have access to this type of data and that in pretty much all the key areas that we don`t see, TFC are better. Up to you if you want to believe him or think he`s reading a page written by Anselmi.

Whew - none of that had anything to do with DeRo :-)

ensco
10-25-2011, 02:15 PM
management has also acquired the likes of Plata, Eckersley, Frings, Koevermans, Johnson, Avila, Marosevic, and Dunfield who have collectively made a tremendous impact since their arrivals (contributing a combined total of almost 30 goals in all competitions), while most of the players that were released (Tchani ,Gordon, Santos, Attakora, Peterson) have had little to no impact with their respective new clubs.

If you were truly objective in your analysis, you would surely be able to acknowledge the positive ramifications of all the player personnel moves this season, which significantly outweigh the negative repercussions in my opinion.

First paragraph above: excellent point. I agree totally. This is a cause for optimism.

Second paragraph: disagree vehemently. The correct default position is to see the year as a failure in urgent need of critical analysis. We finished 16th out of 18. Ownership and management pursued a vigorous scorched earth policy, the consequences of which (inability to attract better players at the margin in the future?) can't yet be measured.

ManUtd4ever
10-25-2011, 02:16 PM
I will admit, there is an excessive amount of posts on my part that address the negatives and not enough of the positives, which I admit there are with this team.

To me, it's a natural reaction to see the excessive positive posts about this team and not nearly enough acknowledgement of mistakes and negative performance issues.

Maybe I am making up for that lack of balance, because I will admit, my negativity is not balanced, although even adding balance to it I still can't reach the level of positivity I see from some.

Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinions and those of others that share your sentiments, even if I disagree with them. I also agree that a balanced outlook is necessary as opposed to just being cheerleaders. I just feel that Winter and Mariner deserve to be evaluated based on the cumulative impact of all their decisions at the helm, not just those that were unfavorable.

Canary10
10-25-2011, 02:22 PM
"Second paragraph: disagree vehemently. The correct default position is to see the year as a failure in urgent need of critical analysis. We finished 16th out of 18. Ownership and management pursued a vigorous scorched earth policy, the consequences of which (inability to attract better players at the margin in the future?) can't yet be measured."

Can't see the result this season having much impact on attracting players. Actually, Winter himself is probably our best weapon in attracting players. If I'm a 20 year old guy, do I want to learn the game from some American coach who has never played a big game in his life, or a guy that has won a Euro, played in Champions Leagues, World Cups, etc and is generally regarded as the best holding midfielder of his generation. And who also has lots of connections to top European teams. One clear positive of our current management is that people want to play for them. Everyone coming out of yesterday's presser said that.

ManUtd4ever
10-25-2011, 02:29 PM
First paragraph above: excellent point. I agree totally. This is a cause for optimism.

Second paragraph: disagree vehemently. The correct default position is to see the year as a failure in urgent need of critical analysis. We finished 16th out of 18. Ownership and management pursued a vigorous scorched earth policy, the consequences of which (inability to attract better players at the margin in the future?) can't yet be measured.

I agree that the regular season as a whole can be viewed as a failure. My sense of optimism is based on the respectable level of success that this club achieved once Mariner and Winter effectively put their stamp on the roster following the summer transfer window.

If we are to consider the prospects of having a competitive club next season, is it not more prudent to base our opinions on the latter stages of this season and the CCL as opposed to the litany of embarassing performances in the first half that tarnished TFC's overall record?

During the press conference yesterday, Stefan Frei was asked to evaluate the season, and he mentioned that it was difficult to generalize because he played for virtually two different clubs in one season, and he's absolutely right.

ensco
10-25-2011, 02:30 PM
Can't see the result this season having much impact on attracting players. Actually, Winter himself is probably our best weapon in attracting players. If I'm a 20 year old guy, do I want to learn the game from some American coach who has never played a big game in his life, or a guy that has won a Euro, played in Champions Leagues, World Cups, etc and is generally regarded as the best holding midfielder of his generation. And who also has lots of connections to top European teams. One clear positive of our current management is that people want to play for them. Everyone coming out of yesterday's presser said that.

Well I hope this is true, but there is no evidence for it yet. They haven't signed anybodyyet...I thought that would be the one thing they would be good at was competing for players out of contract to come here. Not so far.

All the key talent they've brought in was via loans, trade or DP (ie chequebook).

Whoop
10-25-2011, 02:43 PM
I was never a big DeRo guy - and I've stated as much - but certain anti-DeRo supporters are starting to turn me into a DeRo sympathizer.

Wooster_TFC
10-25-2011, 02:48 PM
Well I hope this is true, but there is no evidence for it yet. They haven't signed anybodyyet...I thought that would be the one thing they would be good at was competing for players out of contract to come here. Not so far.

All the key talent they've brought in was via loans, trade or DP (ie chequebook).

You honestly believe that Koevermans and Frings came here (and turned down - reported mind you, not confirmed - more lucrative deals elsewhere - including at home) for the cheque alone?

Based on the information at the time, Koevermans does not come here without Winter/DeKlerk and Frings doesn't come here without them + Klinnsman.

Canary10
10-25-2011, 02:50 PM
"Well I hope this is true, but there is no evidence for it yet. They haven't signed anybodyyet...I thought that would be the one thing they would be good at was competing for players out of contract to come here. Not so far."

Hello? Frings and Koevermans both said a good part of coming was Winter. Frings also was offered more money elsewhere.

Yohan
10-25-2011, 02:52 PM
You honestly believe that Koevermans and Frings came here (and turned down - reported mind you, not confirmed - more lucrative deals elsewhere - including at home) for the cheque alone?

Based on the information at the time, Koevermans does not come here without Winter/DeKlerk and Frings doesn't come here without them + Klinnsman.
I believe Frings said he had better offers from Scotland and Spain in an article somewhere

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1067078--frings-swapped-german-soccer-stardom-for-simple-life-in-toronto

Chevy
10-25-2011, 02:54 PM
I believe Frings said he had better offers from Scotland and Spain in an article somewhere

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1067078--frings-swapped-german-soccer-stardom-for-simple-life-in-toronto


Offers from Scotland? Holy s**t, somebody get DeRo's agent on the horn pronto!

BFin
10-25-2011, 03:00 PM
I was never a big DeRo guy - and I've stated as much - but certain anti-DeRo supporters are starting to turn me into a DeRo sympathizer.

+1...

Pookie
10-25-2011, 03:17 PM
It is a little funny that the DeRo debate appears to really be about Winter.

Anti-DeRo folks tend to be happy he is gone and look at his departure as part of a rebuild engineered by Winter. A small part with many pieces that cover new DPs, an emerging GK, new tactics, young players progressing like Plata, Morgan and Henry, new culture, TFCA, etc.

Pro-DeRo folks tend to lament his departure and point to it as the main reason the team struggled in the standings and offer that the team would have been better with him. Winter's record ends up being the focus for years of mismanagement of this player by folks other than Winter.

In the end, we are all talking about the same goal. A better TFC team. This debate over DeRo really has nothing to do with him anymore and everything to do with advancing opinions on Winter's plan.

Canary10
10-25-2011, 03:19 PM
It is a little funny that the DeRo debate appears to really be about Winter.

Anti-DeRo folks tend to be happy he is gone and look at his departure as part of a rebuild engineered by Winter. A small part with many pieces that cover new DPs, an emerging GK, new tactics, young players progressing like Plata, Morgan and Henry, new culture, TFCA, etc.

Pro-DeRo folks tend to lament his departure and point to it as the main reason the team struggled in the standings and offer that the team would have been better with him. Winter's record ends up being the focus for years of mismanagement of this player by folks other than Winter.

In the end, we are all talking about the same goal. A better TFC team. This debate over DeRo really has nothing to do with him anymore and everything to do with advancing opinions on Winter's plan.

Absolutely.

denime
10-25-2011, 03:24 PM
It is a little funny that the DeRo debate appears to really be about Winter.

Anti-DeRo folks tend to be happy he is gone and look at his departure as part of a rebuild engineered by Winter. A small part with many pieces that cover new DPs, an emerging GK, new tactics, young players progressing like Plata, Morgan and Henry, new culture, TFCA, etc.

Pro-DeRo folks tend to lament his departure and point to it as the main reason the team struggled in the standings and offer that the team would have been better with him. Winter's record ends up being the focus for years of mismanagement of this player by folks other than Winter.

In the end, we are all talking about the same goal. A better TFC team. This debate over DeRo really has nothing to do with him anymore and everything to do with advancing opinions on Winter's plan.

True

This thread will be closed if we can't stay on topic.

:topic:

Canary10
10-25-2011, 03:29 PM
Ok, this one is purely factual, related to the question at hand.

Is DC actually going to make DeRo a DP? Everything I've read, including on their website, says they want to extend his contract. I haven't actually read anything that says they're going to make him a DP.

ensco
10-25-2011, 03:30 PM
I believe Frings said he had better offers from Scotland and Spain in an article somewhere

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1067078--frings-swapped-german-soccer-stardom-for-simple-life-in-toronto

OK. Maybe that's true. Doesn't change my essential point.

This league is really about non-DP talent identification/acquisition.

Given the WinterMariner background (Ajax Academy, The Championship etc) I expected more from them on this.

Also denime, really? Give it a rest. It's a good dust up. Don't close it.

Pookie
10-25-2011, 03:37 PM
Ok, this one is purely factual, related to the question at hand.

Is DC actually going to make DeRo a DP? Everything I've read, including on their website, says they want to extend his contract. I haven't actually read anything that says they're going to make him a DP.

It looks like it was originally one story that was written and picked up by a number of sources.

The DC page and MLS page make no mention of DP. The others do.

I suspect the DP tag will be the negotiating point in the deal. As will be term and salary. Longer term may not necessarily mean a raise.

Have to see I guess.

The other question is does signing DeRo do anything to make their team better?

I submit no, it is a move for the status quo. He really can't do more than he did last year. It won't make them weaker but they will need to shop this offseason to improve as a team.

That said, from a ticket selling point of view it may be a great move.

mastermixer
10-25-2011, 03:39 PM
DeRo brought an identity that gave people a name to connect to the team with. Even Frings doesnt bring what DeRo did.

The increasing number of empty seats every game goes to show that the fans are losing interest and are not being patient. This team has lost a lot of interested soccer fans the past couple of years. I used to see the same people all around me every game, now I just see tourists who have heard that TFC was a fun night out, but I honestly can't see that these people leave convinced to become regular fans, TV ratings show that.
This organization has a lot of work to do to sell this team other than just winning. TFC is not "fresh" anymore in fact as Roogsy said above, the team's speeches are becoming stale.

Thomas
10-25-2011, 03:42 PM
I don't think you need to limit your options to either being happy with the club, or not being a supporter. No need for constant polarization on either end of the spectrum. My view is that the overall season was indeed a clear disappointment in terms of results. However, the almost completely new team had some promising results in the last 3rd of the season. The management team has a plan, and the team shows potential for 2012.

Canary10
10-25-2011, 03:44 PM
How do you say they've not done well at identifying players? First off, they didn't have the entire preseason to put a team together. The team they did put together was in mid-season, which really limits who is available. And even despite that, I think they've done incredibly well. Most of the players they've brought into the starting 11 are upgrades. This is one area I feel entirely confident with going forward in the off-season.

v00d00daddy
10-25-2011, 03:57 PM
Voodoo specifically requested a run of 15-20 games that showed the best stretch they ever played under DeRo. That is what I provided. Talk about taking something out of context. Should I simply have trotted out the entire 2010 season? Which still shows better stats than 2011 by the way? How would you have answered the question he posed?

You did answer my question quite well. To be honest I only really looked closely at the 2009 stats assuming that was the year we had the better stretch. Turns out...we did have a stretch with DeRo on the team that was better than the stretch that ended this season. So I was definitely wrong on that front.

That being said...the run we went on from August on this year was a good one and was a close second to the one you cited.

One considerable difference is that this year is the first year that we ended strong. For whatever that's worth.

All the other cheerleader talk is stupid and divisive.

Roogsy
10-25-2011, 04:19 PM
All the other cheerleader talk is stupid and divisive.

I am going to apologize for that. I profoundly disagree with the position the supporters have taken with management. I think we are giving them far too easy a time. And my wording is trying to express how much I believe they are taking advantage of the fanbase and how the fanbase allows them to do it. But I can also appreciate the fact that people do no want to be called a cheerleader so I am going to apologize to anyone who feels that was directed at them and will strive not to use that term again.

And yes we did end strong and I dont expect another 16th place finish. However, I don't expect next year to make up for completely throwing away this year. We'd have to be exceptionally outstanding and I just don't see it happening.

eustacchio
10-25-2011, 04:20 PM
You did answer my question quite well. To be honest I only really looked closely at the 2009 stats assuming that was the year we had the better stretch. Turns out...we did have a stretch with DeRo on the team that was better than the stretch that ended this season. So I was definitely wrong on that front.

That being said...the run we went on from August on this year was a good one and was a close second to the one you cited.

One considerable difference is that this year is the first year that we ended strong. For whatever that's worth.

All the other cheerleader talk is stupid and divisive.

It's the first time in a while that I've looked forward to the next season immediately after the current one ended.

v00d00daddy
10-25-2011, 05:33 PM
I am going to apologize for that. I profoundly disagree with the position the supporters have taken with management. I think we are giving them far too easy a time. And my wording is trying to express how much I believe they are taking advantage of the fanbase and how the fanbase allows them to do it. But I can also appreciate the fact that people do no want to be called a cheerleader so I am going to apologize to anyone who feels that was directed at them and will strive not to use that term again.

And yes we did end strong and I dont expect another 16th place finish. However, I don't expect next year to make up for completely throwing away this year. We'd have to be exceptionally outstanding and I just don't see it happening.

It's all good on the cheerleader front. No offence taken here.

As for the strong finish...I agree. It doesn't make up for throwing away the season or for 4 bad seasons before that....but I choose to see it as a start.

I look back at this season as a purge of (almost) all that was wrong with TFC. Upper management still sucks balls but I'm at least happier with the team on the field and I hope Mariner/Winter/deKlerk can mute the men above them.

Shakes McQueen
10-25-2011, 05:50 PM
DeRo brought an identity that gave people a name to connect to the team with. Even Frings doesnt bring what DeRo did.

The increasing number of empty seats every game goes to show that the fans are losing interest and are not being patient. This team has lost a lot of interested soccer fans the past couple of years. I used to see the same people all around me every game, now I just see tourists who have heard that TFC was a fun night out, but I honestly can't see that these people leave convinced to become regular fans, TV ratings show that.
This organization has a lot of work to do to sell this team other than just winning. TFC is not "fresh" anymore in fact as Roogsy said above, the team's speeches are becoming stale.

DeRo leaving the team has nothing to do with a decline in attendance or TV ratings. It's all success of the pitch, and some of it was inevitable.

TFC used to be the hot, "cool" ticket in town. Even when BMO was packed, the majority of people in the stands were just casual observers who were there to see what it was all about. It's part of why supporters had such a frustrating time trying to get simple stadium-wide chants going - most people just wanted to be there, but not actually participate in the atmosphere.

As the team floundered, that novelty status gradually eroded away. Putting a great team on the pitch would definitely have blunted some of that decline, but not all of it.

DeRo was only a familiar name to people who already followed MLS, or the CMNT. Such people generally don't need a "familiar name to connect to the team".

Attendance declined while DeRo was here, because results, and the ongoing novelty of the product are what actually matter. The latter was inevitably going to fade away, and the former has yet to be delivered.

- Scott

Oldtimer
10-25-2011, 06:41 PM
[mod mode]

Just a reminder to all, the main topic is DeRo being potentially made a DP by DC. While that topic naturally spawns related topics (for example, DeRo is no longer at Toronto), this thread has veered off into supporting vs. not supporting the club, and other unrelated topics. If the topic of DeRo getting a new deal with DC has exhausted itself, then we can close the thread and be done.

so...:topic:

Thank-you.

[/mod mode]

KezmanCCCC
10-25-2011, 06:50 PM
bravo for dero... i hope he can be happy now... i wish him all the best at DC.... except for when they are in TFC's way....


BTW... dero mentioned that he wants whats best for his family (which im sure is true) but wouldnt it be best for them to be located in Toronto where im sure all deros other family is? so his kids can grow up with their grandparents and aunts and uncles.... plus im sure he will be back right in scarborough when he is done with football.... so wouldnt be best for his children to grow up here?? im just saying....

Oldtimer
10-25-2011, 07:06 PM
BTW... dero mentioned that he wants whats best for his family (which im sure is true) but wouldnt it be best for them to be located in Toronto where im sure all deros other family is? so his kids can grow up with their grandparents and aunts and uncles.... plus im sure he will be back right in scarborough when he is done with football.... so wouldnt be best for his children to grow up here?? im just saying....

AFAIK, DeRo's immediate family is in the Houston area still, so DC would be an improvement in seeing them more often. It's pretty easy to fly from DC to Houston.

This was never mentioned in TFC propaganda because TFC was emphasizing the "home-town boy" angle.

I suspect that DeRo would prefer to be playing in Houston, but I'm pretty sure they've moved on and don't want him, otherwise they would have made the deal with New York. DC want him, so that's the best option for him right now, and they seem to want him quite a lot.

Roogsy
10-26-2011, 12:57 AM
AFAIK, DeRo's immediate family is in the Houston area still, so DC would be an improvement in seeing them more often. It's pretty easy to fly from DC to Houston.

This was never mentioned in TFC propaganda because TFC was emphasizing the "home-town boy" angle.

I suspect that DeRo would prefer to be playing in Houston, but I'm pretty sure they've moved on and don't want him, otherwise they would have made the deal with New York. DC want him, so that's the best option for him right now, and they seem to want him quite a lot.

Houston was one of the teams that was interested in DeRo and Kinnear admitted as much after DeRo landed in NY. You know, one of those teams that some here had questioned even existed. That brings to at least 3 the number of teams that were interested in DeRo long before Toronto finally traded him (and in fact there was another team) which is why I feel the trade that eventually resulted in his leaving was undervalued. Our management misplayed their hand and could have gotten more. As it stands, if Iro leaves at the end of this year, we will pretty much have received nothing for him and still have paid half his salary. Not a very good trade and it's one of many issues I feel this team has mismanaged and that I feel fans should be more upset about.

DeRo's immediate family is not in the Houston area FYI.

Shakes McQueen
10-26-2011, 01:20 AM
I'll agree that we should have gotten more in the DeRo trade, in retrospect (though it seemed like decent value at the time, and hindsight is easy).

However, I don't know if fans should be more upset about it. Rarely does everything a manager touches turn to gold. Winter has made some bad decisions, but on balance, I think the good has outweighed the bad. Even Alex Anthopoulous - the toast of the town as far as general managers go right now - has made some errors since taking over the Jays job, such as not getting much of anything for Mike Napoli (currently playing in the World Series).

Both are new to the gig, and in both cases, fans are mostly looking at the bigger picture. Mistakes will be made along what is hopefully the path to winning.

Personally, I was pretty consistent in saying I wanted to see a positive evolution in Winter and the team this season, and I think we got that - so much so that even a bunch of staunch pessimists here feel genuine optimism to end a TFC season. The legitimate accomplishment of making the CCL quarters also helped, I'm sure.

I never thought this season would end with us worrying about whether we wll be able to retain key players, instead of haggling over who needs to pack their bags and get out.

- Scott

Roogsy
10-26-2011, 02:09 AM
I'll agree that we should have gotten more in the DeRo trade, in retrospect (though it seemed like decent value at the time, and hindsight is easy).

However, I don't know if fans should be more upset about it. Rarely does everything a manager touches turn to gold. Winter has made some bad decisions, but on balance, I think the good has outweighed the bad. Even Alex Anthopoulous - the toast of the town as far as general managers go right now - has made some errors since taking over the Jays job, such as not getting much of anything for Mike Napoli (currently playing in the World Series).

I agree. There will be good decisions and bad decisions. But the point of hiring a proven, experienced manager is that those mistakes are reduced and their cumulative effect is mitigated. MLSE took a punt with a rookie who came in and fumbled around for the first half of the season and most importantly, messed up an already volatile situation with the team's all-time leading goal-scorer and only All Star. If there was one situation where mistakes were not a luxury available, it was here and yet here is where they made their biggest and costliest mistake. Screw up with a non-impact player? Meh...have at it. Screw up with your only scoring threat? Come on. There should have been an uproar. Not because they traded him. Players get traded all the time and Dwayne is perfectly happy in DC. But we were left picking up the pieces without any sort of uproar over the damage such a mistake cost the team. I continue to contend that this is by far the biggest reason for our historically bad start to the year, when in fact it didn't need to happen. The question here really is how bad did this team need to be before fans got upset? It's almost like we were so happy Mo was gone this team could have had a year twice as bad as what we went through and nobody would have raised their voice.

People often dismiss the "what ifs" as a useless exercise of regret. I disagree. What-ifs teach us how to avoid future mistakes, but only if we accept we have made mistakes to begin with. Excusing behaviour only encourages future mistakes are repeated.

Shakes McQueen
10-26-2011, 02:39 AM
I agree. There will be good decisions and bad decisions. But the point of hiring a proven, experienced manager is that those mistakes are reduced and their cumulative effect is mitigated. MLSE took a punt with a rookie who came in and fumbled around for the first half of the season and most importantly, messed up an already volatile situation with the team's all-time leading goal-scorer and only All Star. If there was one situation where mistakes were not a luxury available, it was here and yet here is where they made their biggest and costliest mistake. Screw up with a non-impact player? Meh...have at it. Screw up with your only scoring threat? Come on. There should have been an uproar. Not because they traded him. Players get traded all the time and Dwayne is perfectly happy in DC. But we were left picking up the pieces without any sort of uproar over the damage such a mistake cost the team. I continue to contend that this is by far the biggest reason for our historically bad start to the year, when in fact it didn't need to happen. The question here really is how bad did this team need to be before fans got upset? It's almost like we were so happy Mo was gone this team could have had a year twice as bad as what we went through and nobody would have raised their voice.

People often dismiss the "what ifs" as a useless exercise of regret. I disagree. What-ifs teach us how to avoid future mistakes, but only if we accept we have made mistakes to begin with. Excusing behaviour only encourages future mistakes are repeated.

There was plenty of uproar covering every potential angle, when it came to the DeRo situation, and how it was handled. I think most people are simply reluctant to put any serious part of that mess at the feet of Winter, because it was already in full swing when he got here, as you point out. He was left to try and sort out what was already a bad situation.

I will also actually partially disagree that it was a costly mistake. I don't think the team we had to start this season + DeRo would have done any better this season, and I'm not familiar enough with our exact cap situation due to league secrecy, to know how him not leaving would impact other moves Winter subsequently made over the months (Frings, Koevermans, Johnson, etc.)

I think DeRo is a phenomenally talented footballer, but I actually think our team has come out of a potentially destructive mess for the better, ultimately. His status as all-time leading scorer or league all-star aren't really of consequence to my view.

We finished the year with a promising team full of players who seem to all be finally (and happily) pushing in the same direction, and we managed to salvage what was set to be a grim season of learning and building, with the CCL success. The DeRo outcome hasn't been that costly, and we actually have more than one legitimate scoring threat now.

I'm fine with reviewing and analyzing history - I just think you may be exaggerating the size and cost of Winter's error here.

- Scott

Roogsy
10-26-2011, 02:52 AM
I am not as bullish on the players as some are. The stats show a significant impact in performance upon DeRo's departure. The sinking ship was only salvaged once the DPs arrived. That isn't a reflection of how good the coaching is or how good the rest of the team is as much as it is a testament of the quality of the DPs (who I admit are a great addition to the team). The evidence is reflected in the games where Danny K did not play, we once again went back to struggling to score. I love Plata. I think Johnson is a good pick up. But without the potency of Danny K throwing off defenses opening up space for them, they are still average MLS players, nowhere near as good as we are making them out to be. The team going -19 before they arrived and going -4 the rest of the way I think highlights that very well.

If we make the playoffs next year it will be on the back of Frings holding together a shaky backline and Danny K going on a tear on the scoresheet. (I have calculated hat Danny K needs to have a 15+ goal season for us to have that success.) If either of those players goes down to injury or leaves for others teams (unlikely) then we will go back to struggling and will be once again looking on the outside in. That is not a evidenced of a balanced or well-constructed team, that is evidence of a team dependent on their DPs to carry the bulk of the weight. Just more of the same that we saw with coaching when DeRo was here except now there is 3 DPs instead of 1.

Shakes McQueen
10-26-2011, 03:19 AM
Is this where we are supposed to start hurling insults at one another?

You vagabond! Rapscallion! Insufferable rogue!

- Scott

Roogsy
10-26-2011, 03:40 AM
LOL!

DichioTFC
10-26-2011, 03:43 AM
Legit non-trolling question (primarily to Roogsy and others that are more pro-DeRo):

Assuming you are DCU's GM and you will be signing DeRo to a contract, how much should the contract be worth and how many years (keeping in mind the club financial dynamics, etc.)?

Oldtimer
10-26-2011, 07:35 AM
. As it stands, if Iro leaves at the end of this year, we will pretty much have received nothing for him and still have paid half his salary. Not a very good trade and it's one of many issues I feel this team has mismanaged and that I feel fans should be more upset about.

DeRo's immediate family is not in the Houston area FYI.

Roogsy, every club does the occasional bad trade. lol even Arsene Wenger, the master "moneyball" man of English football has the occasional dud. In reality, When DeRo turned down the deal, they panicked. They were desperate to get rid of the situation, never a good situation to be when sitting across from another GM playing hardball. I suspect Backe did the same in New York, because he didn't do well either compared with DeRo's value.

Thanks about the info about DeRo's family, the rumours I heard were false, then.

Pookie
10-26-2011, 08:15 AM
Value is sometimes reflected by variables other than output and skill of the manager.

DeRo indicated that this was a move he had some control over. In many cases, where a player is demanding a trade and limits the situation in some way (eg. teams he would play for), the return value is diminished.

Canary10
10-26-2011, 08:27 AM
There was an uproar when DeRo was traded. But there would have been far more of an uproar had he not alienated half the fans. He has a big role in instigating his fall from grace that a lot of his supporters don't acknowledge.

ManUtd4ever
10-26-2011, 08:37 AM
Trying to put a positive spin on the DeRo trade...

If you think about it, TFC ultimately gave up Julius James for Andy Iro, Danleigh Borman, Leandre Griffit, and a 2012 1st round pick in the MLS SuperDraft.

That sounds a lot better. :D

Pookie
10-26-2011, 08:37 AM
Legit non-trolling question (primarily to Roogsy and others that are more pro-DeRo):

Assuming you are DCU's GM and you will be signing DeRo to a contract, how much should the contract be worth and how many years (keeping in mind the club financial dynamics, etc.)?

I am not pro-DeRo but will park any feelings towards character and try to answer this question with logic. DeRo wasn't a fit for Toronto but he could be one for DC.

Circumstances for DC: Forbes has them posting an annual operating loss of $3M. They were 10th overall in terms of payroll spending, about $1M behind TFC before our DPs arrived and $100k less than New England. The do spend about $600k more per year on salaries than the league cheapskates in Portland. Attendance is fairly strong.

Other Circumstances: If the report is to be believed, the league is no longer going to pay the allocation portion of his deal. While the MLS Salary Cap is an exercise in secrecy, it would appear that in order to fit him under the league max cap hit of $335k without allocation money, the DP tag is absolutely necessary.

Age is always going to be a factor for both Player and Club. The Club needs to guard against having a player that falls off in contribution while the player will want to extend his pay day as long as possible before he retires.

Starting Point: I'd put a marginal raise on the table with the DP tag (based on necessity). Somewhere in the Schelotto range of $600-650k. It would be higher than Boskovic's ($525k) and close to parity with Ferreira's $700k. Similar players in terms of age. Boskovic is only a reference point for what DC is open to spending on DPs.

I'd put that into a 2 year term initially.

Where I would go from the starting point: The two variables in this negotiation will be salary and term.

If DeRo and Agent are intent on term, I would extend term, 3 year plus a club option, without budging on salary. Schelotto won the MVP and 1 season later he was waived through the league. As good as this season was, I really need to protect against that.

I would also be willing to turn that club option into a mutual player/club option as the last concession.

That said, if DeRo and Agent are looking "to get paid" and money is the driver, I'd be willing to extend a raise from my initial offer and put him over Ferreira's salary with something in the $750-800k range. I wouldn't budge on term. 2 years.

As a last concession, I'd tack on a Club Option year 3 and again for year 4 to give myself protection against a possible decline.

Wooster_TFC
10-26-2011, 09:45 AM
It's quite possible that DeRo will get the DP tag, as there are (currently anyways) no other career MLS players that could make the same claims as he can with respect to deserving it. He can also make the argument that his contributions over the last few years have bested at least half of the current set of DPs (too many of them to go through player by player, but there are at least half on that list that I would rather have DeRo than them). The fact that he would have to take a pay cut in order to remain a non-DP solidifies this fact IMO.

I think that Pookie's reasoning seems fairly sound, although I would be willing to give DeRo at least a Hassli level contract (900k) over 2 years, and might be willing to bump up the first year of that to JPA level (1.2 million).

I'd pick the same starting point.

If he wants more than 1 million each year, then I'd be willing to go to 1.2 million, but it would switch to a 1 year contract with a 1 year team option (with potential additional team options on top of that). I want to protect myself, but I also don't want this to become an issue with it again next year.

If he wants more guaranteed years + more than 1 million per year, I might be willing to do a 2 + 1 option, if I think I can still build a team around him. This would be a final offer though, and it would have to be 2 + 1 at 1 million per.

Anything more than that, and I walk. Ideally I'd start shopping him right away so that he can be traded before the beginning of the year. I'd likely set a deadline of Dec 31st for him to decide on my offer if he says he needs more time, then deal him as quickly as possible if he declines (best offer of course). Can't have this hanging over your head all year.

Roogsy
10-26-2011, 10:13 AM
Legit non-trolling question (primarily to Roogsy and others that are more pro-DeRo):

Assuming you are DCU's GM and you will be signing DeRo to a contract, how much should the contract be worth and how many years (keeping in mind the club financial dynamics, etc.)?

I maintain the levels I suggested were viable for Toronto when he was here. A $750k contract, guaranteed for 2 years and I think you have a deal with him without blowing up the bank account and you knock down the salary cap hit by giving him the DP tag.

If you don't want to use up the DP tag, then the current level guaranteed for an extended period, on a declining balance basis (to take into account his age) for probably 4 years. You spend less here but take a larger cap hit.

These are perfectly reasonable solutions and were available to Toronto. You'd think someone who has scored north of 50 goals and nearly 20 assists in the last 3 seasons would have earned these numbers which still aren't tops in the league by any stretch.


Starting Point: I'd put a marginal raise on the table with the DP tag (based on necessity). Somewhere in the Schelotto range of $600-650k. It would be higher than Boskovic's ($525k) and close to parity with Ferreira's $700k. Similar players in terms of age. Boskovic is only a reference point for what DC is open to spending on DPs.

I'd put that into a 2 year term initially.


For all the virulent arguing we do, it amazes me that we are actually closer to agreeing with each other than we care to admit.

Oldtimer
10-26-2011, 10:14 AM
I maintain the levels I suggested were viable for Toronto when he was here. A $750k contract, guaranteed for 2 years and I think you have a deal with him without blowing up the bank account and you knock down the salary cap hit by giving him the DP tag.

If you don't want to use up the DP tag, then the current level guaranteed for an extended period, on a declining balance basis (to take into account his age) for probably 4 years. You spend less here but take a larger cap hit.

These are perfectly reasonable solutions and were available to Toronto.

That's right along where I expect DC to offer.

Canary10
10-26-2011, 10:32 AM
I was just looking at game recaps. Does the MLS count the last two passers that lead to a goal as an assist? If that's the case, it's a different definition than what is used in Europe (only last passer).

Roogsy
10-26-2011, 10:36 AM
I was just looking at game recaps. Does the MLS count the last two passers that lead to a goal as an assist? If that's the case, it's a different definition than what is used in Europe (only last passer).

Last passer only. <<<--- Incorrect

Canary10
10-26-2011, 10:40 AM
In some of DeRo's assists on DC United's website he was the second passer. i.e. in the Chivas game this is what it says:

Scoring Summary:
DC -- Charlie Davies 9 (Chris Pontius 3, Dwayne De Rosario 9) 11
DC -- Charlie Davies 10 (Chris Pontius 4) 14
DC -- Charlie Davies 11 (Chris Pontius 5, Dwayne De Rosario 10) 66

jloome
10-26-2011, 10:40 AM
Shakes are you out of your mind? Do not engage these people. Retreat from this powderkeg and find shelter.

So....tempting....must.... nah, fuck that, not going there, B. Enuffs! Enuffs I says!

Roogsy
10-26-2011, 10:49 AM
In some of DeRo's assists on DC United's website he was the second passer. i.e. in the Chivas game this is what it says:

Scoring Summary:
DC -- Charlie Davies 9 (Chris Pontius 3, Dwayne De Rosario 9) 11
DC -- Charlie Davies 10 (Chris Pontius 4) 14
DC -- Charlie Davies 11 (Chris Pontius 5, Dwayne De Rosario 10) 66


Maybe they do record "secondary assists"? Odd...

http://usasoccer.blogspot.com/2007/10/mls-2007-breakdown-of-primary-secondary.html

Canary10
10-26-2011, 10:56 AM
I think those were the only two for him while at DC. His assists may be marginally inflated though.

In my EPL fantasy league, they're including the player that gets fouled on a penalty or set piece that leads to a goal as an assist now. Not sure if that's league policy or just the fantasy league.

Roogsy
10-26-2011, 10:59 AM
I think those were the only two for him while at DC. His assists may be marginally inflated though.

In my EPL fantasy league, they're including the player that gets fouled on a penalty or set piece that leads to a goal as an assist now. Not sure if that's league policy or just the fantasy league.


Depends on how you look at it. As long as the measuring stick is the same for all, it is still a comparison of impact and willingness to share the ball (being as his rep around these parts is of a "ball hog"). If everyone else is getting credit for "secondary assists" as well, that only means that everyone's numbers will likely be "slightly inflated".

Canary10
10-26-2011, 11:14 AM
Depends on how you look at it. As long as the measuring stick is the same for all, it is still a comparison of impact and willingness to share the ball (being as his rep around these parts is of a "ball hog"). If everyone else is getting credit for "secondary assists" as well, that only means that everyone's numbers will likely be "slightly inflated".

True. The article you linked to suggested it might not be consistent in all stadiums, but I get your point. Plus it's only 2 that I can find.

brandrews
10-26-2011, 11:56 AM
Depends on how you look at it. As long as the measuring stick is the same for all, it is still a comparison of impact and willingness to share the ball (being as his rep around these parts is of a "ball hog"). If everyone else is getting credit for "secondary assists" as well, that only means that everyone's numbers will likely be "slightly inflated".

i've noticed the second assists in the past in mls; i remember checking out video of a couple of them, and it gave me the impression that it had to be fairly clean and quick from the second passer to the goal in order for one to be awarded.

so, they tend to be deserving assists in my opinion.

Canary10
10-26-2011, 12:13 PM
I did a look at DC United before and after DeRo's trade. No analysis, you can draw your own conclusions from the numbers. These are for MLS games only. DC had two games early on for the US Open Cup. DeRo missed one game since the trade, which was a 2-1 loss to Vancouver (he was playing for Canada the night before, give him credit for prioritizing country over club). He had 13 goals and 7 assists while at DC (2 assists were "secondary"). However you view the club numbers, those are a lot of goals and assists.






Before DeRo
Games 15
PPG 1.2
Points over 34 games 41
Goals scored per game 1.4
Goals conceded per game 1.8
GF 21
GA 27
Pts. 18



With DeRo
Games 19
PPG 1.11
Points over 34 games 38
Goals scored per game 1.47
Goals conceded per game 1.32
GF 28
GA 25
Pts. 21


(Minus his one game missed-Van))
Games 18
PPG 1.17
Points over 34 games 40
Goals scored per game 1.5
Goals conceded per game 1.28
GF 27
GA 23
Pts. 21

Oldtimer
10-26-2011, 12:53 PM
DeRo's stats and influence point to him being a "lower end DP," with wages under $1 million being appropriate.

DC has the DP slot available, so it makes sense to use it. It's probably the main difference between DC and his last two clubs. NY only wants to use their slots for "big names" (i.e. foreign stars) to market the team. TFC already had JDG as DP and wanted to add Koevs and Frings, so the DP option wasn't a go for TFC. However, as Roogsy has suggested, they could have offered a long-term deal at the maximum, but I guess they were hesitant to take the risk, given his age (and despite the fact that he plays like someone several years younger). Maybe they could have worked it out with more time, but Mo's broken promises would have made DeRo wanting a more immediate resolution (hence the "cheque signing" incident). Or maybe it just wasn't to be.

Roogsy
10-26-2011, 01:00 PM
I did a look at DC United before and after DeRo's trade. No analysis, you can draw your own conclusions from the numbers. These are for MLS games only. DC had two games early on for the US Open Cup. DeRo missed one game since the trade, which was a 2-1 loss to Vancouver (he was playing for Canada the night before, give him credit for prioritizing country over club). He had 13 goals and 7 assists while at DC (2 assists were "secondary"). However you view the club numbers, those are a lot of goals and assists.






Before DeRo
Games 15
PPG 1.2
Points over 34 games 41
Goals scored per game 1.4
Goals conceded per game 1.8
GF 21
GA 27
Pts. 18



With DeRo
Games 19
PPG 1.11
Points over 34 games 38
Goals scored per game 1.47
Goals conceded per game 1.32
GF 28
GA 25
Pts. 21


(Minus his one game missed-Van))
Games 18
PPG 1.17
Points over 34 games 40
Goals scored per game 1.5
Goals conceded per game 1.28
GF 27
GA 23
Pts. 21

Dead on. And by appearances it looks neutral and even slightly against DeRo's favour. But then you factor in the 2nd major injury DC suffered this year with Chris Pontius, DeRo's partner at forward and you see the effect.

With DeRo, Pre-Pontius injury DC was running at 4W, 3D, 2L with a +8 goal diff. That was 1.67 ppg clip. Post-injury DC went 1W, 2D, 6L and a -5 goal diff, a 0.67 rate (yikes!) And if you watch the last couple of DC games you know why. With no other viable scoring option, teams weren't afraid to double-team DeRo and hack away at him all game long. Much like how TFC's great streak went ice cold when Chad Barrett went down last year or how our scoring went cool while Danny K was off for a short bit this past August and the team dropped to a 1.00 ppg rate, there wasn't much DeRo could do to overcome the loss of his scoring partner a few weeks ago. Remember, Chris was having a good year as well, scoring 7 and assisting on 5 right up until early September.

It's too bad he got hurt. At the rate they were going, playoffs were in sight.