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LittleOzzy
10-21-2011, 08:38 AM
With both TFC and Montreal making it to the Championship Round over the last few years I think it's time to apply for a change to the CONCACAF Champions League format.

I don't think the NCC is strong enough to ask for two spots in CCL play, but I do think the winner should be entered directly into the Group Stage.

This year alone Alajuelense, Real Espaņa, Comunicaciones and Tauro all failed to qualify for the Championship Round and I feel one of their spots directly into the Group Stage should be swapped with Canada.

Do you think we are that far off from this happening? Is it something they should be looking into? Or do you feel it's too soon for a change to the format?

ForestGlade
10-21-2011, 09:40 AM
Don't lynch me for saying this, but most teams that qualify directly into the group stage do it by winning a league championship. I don't think CONCACAF is going to be too eager to grant a group stage spot to a Canadian team that didn't win a league but won a four team tournament

Ossington Mental Youth
10-21-2011, 09:48 AM
yeah, i dont think its time yet, canada has to show its strenght as a national team and tbh as forest glade suggested a 4 team tournie just aint enough. Maybe once canada gets a second division and the canadian cup is much larger, then maybe its worth looking at.

Brocko
10-21-2011, 10:13 AM
With both TFC and Montreal making it to the Championship Round over the last few years I think it's time to apply for a change to the CONCACAF Champions League format.

I don't think the NCC is strong enough to ask for two spots in CCL play, but I do think the winner should be entered directly into the Group Stage.

This year alone Alajuelense, Real Espaņa, Comunicaciones and Tauro all failed to qualify for the Championship Round and I feel one of their spots directly into the Group Stage should be swapped with Canada.

Do you think we are that far off from this happening? Is it something they should be looking into? Or do you feel it's too soon for a change to the format?
If the NCC expanded to 16 teams, using an invitational format to those non MLS/USL/NASL clubs then CONCACAF might listen to this request. US gets 4 clubs...US Open Invitational, MLS Champ, Supporter Shield Winner, and MLS Cup runner up.

My curiousity gets the best of me when I think what would happen if TFC ever won the Supporter Shield, MLS Cup or lost in the Cup Final. Would US lose a spot and Canada gain one, or would it be the next best US club in the spot TYFC took make it? What would happen if TFC didn't win the NCC...would TFC NOT get a spot in Champions League?

Couchy81
10-21-2011, 10:20 AM
Don't lynch me for saying this, but most teams that qualify directly into the group stage do it by winning a league championship. I don't think CONCACAF is going to be too eager to grant a group stage spot to a Canadian team that didn't win a league but won a four team tournament

The argument could be made by the CSA in the near future (a couple more years perhaps) that the quality of the 4 teams is consistently getting them into the group stage and beyond, if our teams continue the trend. Maybe one day the team that wins the NCC qualifies for the group stage, and the runners-up must go through preliminary round.

Auzzy
10-21-2011, 10:26 AM
If the NCC expanded to 16 teams, using an invitational format to those non MLS/USL/NASL clubs then CONCACAF might listen to this request. US gets 4 clubs...US Open Invitational, MLS Champ, Supporter Shield Winner, and MLS Cup runner up.

My curiousity gets the best of me when I think what would happen if TFC ever won the Supporter Shield, MLS Cup or lost in the Cup Final. Would US lose a spot and Canada gain one, or would it be the next best US club in the spot TYFC took make it? What would happen if TFC didn't win the NCC...would TFC NOT get a spot in Champions League?

"Should the same (US-based MLS-) team qualify multiple times and/or should a Canadian team occupy one or more of the MLS qualifying places, then the American MLS team(s) with the best regular season records not otherwise qualified will be entered." from Wikipedia

TFC can only qualify via the NCC & CCL Preliminary Round.

spe18
10-21-2011, 10:33 AM
My curiousity gets the best of me when I think what would happen if TFC ever won the Supporter Shield, MLS Cup or lost in the Cup Final. Would US lose a spot and Canada gain one, or would it be the next best US club in the spot TYFC took make it? What would happen if TFC didn't win the NCC...would TFC NOT get a spot in Champions League?

It's the next best US club in that category would get the spot instead. Keeping in mind that Canadian teams cannot qualify for the Champions League through MLS, only through the NCC.

And I'm not sure what you meant by your second point, but it's the team that wins the NCC that get's the Canadian spot for the Champions League. Hope that clarifies it :)

And I WOULD change the US rules for the CL by making a Canadian team eligible if they were to qualify from MLS REGARDLESS!!

FIAF
10-21-2011, 10:41 AM
I don't think so. Besides MLS is awarded 5 gifted berths. Including Canada, that's ridiculous. It should be 3 (US) 1 (CA) and even that's a lot.

Yohan
10-21-2011, 10:43 AM
I don't think so. Besides MLS is awarded 5 gifted berths. Including Canada, that's ridiculous. It should be 3 (US) 1 (CA)
no, it's the national federations that are awarded births. 4 US, 1 Can

MLS is an USSF sanction league and CSA has very little to do with it.

FIAF
10-21-2011, 10:45 AM
no, it's the national federations that are awarded births. 4 US, 1 Can

What do you mean? Shouldn't it be about the leagues strength? I don't agree with so many berths, it should be gained not a gift.

MartinUtd
10-21-2011, 10:47 AM
I'd have thought when the V-cup gets 6-8 teams participating then there would be a stronger case. If it ever got to 12-16 teams I'd think there would be a call for 1.5 spots.

It's really too bad our third tier is a mishmash of pdl/csl/pcsl and whatever else. You'll never find a viable consensus with the way things are now.

Yohan
10-21-2011, 10:48 AM
What do you mean? Shouldn't it be about the leagues strength? I don't agree with so many berths, it should be gained not a gift.
no, it's not necessarily about league strengths

again, it's national federations that are awarded spots and they determine the eligibility for CCL spots. heck, CSA can decide that best placed canadian team in MLS gets the canadian CCL spot and scrap NCC.

canadian teams are in MLS by invitation from MLS and USSF only.

Oldtimer
10-21-2011, 10:57 AM
no, it's the national federations that are awarded births. 4 US, 1 Can

MLS is an USSF sanction league and CSA has very little to do with it.

Exactly. for example, the USSF could award all their 4 berths to the USOC winner plus the other USOC semi-finalists and freeze out MLS. Won't happen, but this example is to show how discretionary it is.

prizby
10-21-2011, 11:02 AM
the only time there could be a change is if the CCL champion doesn't qualify via their respective league

then again, this can be fixed on a year-to-year basis as there is always a couple of central american teams that get disqualified for not having a proper venue and other federations are awarded their spot

Brocko
10-21-2011, 01:09 PM
It's the next best US club in that category would get the spot instead. Keeping in mind that Canadian teams cannot qualify for the Champions League through MLS, only through the NCC.

And I'm not sure what you meant by your second point, but it's the team that wins the NCC that get's the Canadian spot for the Champions League. Hope that clarifies it :)

And I WOULD change the US rules for the CL by making a Canadian team eligible if they were to qualify from MLS REGARDLESS!!
and that is the issue. If we won Supporter Shield & MLS Cup and not the NCC...it would be a joke not to make Champions League. Maybe it should be 5 Canadian and US teams make it based on....blah blah blah. Maybe If a Canadian Club wins a "US Spot" than 2 Canadian Clubs can advance if there is a different NCC Winner...at least if the 2 Canadian Clubs make it to a Qualifier...and the 4 US Clubs can still make it. I just think this may be an issue one day and it would be nice to have it sorted before it happens.

ManUtd4ever
10-21-2011, 01:15 PM
^^ I agree. It would definitely be interesting to see how MLS and CONCACAF would respond in any given year if TFC, Vancouver, or Montreal do not the win NCC but go on to win the Supporters Shield and/or qualify for the MLS Cup finals.

redcard
10-21-2011, 01:19 PM
Seeing as the qualification is based on national champions...all national champions should get an automatic spot into the group stage...why they have spots for runners up is beyond me...ie mls should be cup champ and usoc champ...mexico open champ and closura champ...

JamboAl
10-21-2011, 01:21 PM
^^ I agree. It would definitely be interesting to see how MLS and CONCACAF would respond in any given year if TFC, Vancouver, or Montreal do not the win NCC but go on to win the Supporters Shield and/or qualify for the MLS Cup finals.

I think it would be irrelevant. The USSF are not going to give up one of their 4 spots for a Canadian team just because they win either the MLS Cup or the Supporters Shield. That's why the Voyageurs' Cup is so important to TFC (and the other Canadian teams). You could even argue that it's more important.

james
10-21-2011, 01:27 PM
Do teams like Cardiff and Swansea not get a welsh spot for UEFA but have to qualify as an English position??

only having 4 clubs no way should Canada get 2 qualifying positions, its to easy then. Considerring MLS and NASL and the usl and whatever there is in lower divisions have canadian and USA teams im suprised Concacaf just doesnt say Canadian teams have to compete as an american slot of Concacaf Champions League, the only spot out of the 4 available spots to gain entry for Concacaf that we dont compete in is the US Open Cup, but even they might let us compete if they asked for entry from US open Cup.

anyways that all said, i think i would rather continue to see Canada having there own entry to Concacaf Champions League, but i would like to see Canada add to at least 8 teams into this tournamnet even if they are at lower leagues such as CSL teams. 4 teams just sounds easy, lol.

TFCRegina
10-21-2011, 01:29 PM
yeah, i dont think its time yet, canada has to show its strenght as a national team and tbh as forest glade suggested a 4 team tournie just aint enough. Maybe once canada gets a second division and the canadian cup is much larger, then maybe its worth looking at.

Should have nothing to do with that.

If you were to move to a co-efficient based system, Canada would be ahead of Panama and entitled to a second spot based on the club performances.

Granted a 4 club operation doesn't deserve a 2nd spot, but if you go on performance alone, Canada is deserving of an automatic qualifier and a preliminary spot.

TFCRegina
10-21-2011, 01:30 PM
I think it would be irrelevant. The USSF are not going to give up one of their 4 spots for a Canadian team just because they win either the MLS Cup or the Supporters Shield. That's why the Voyageurs' Cup is so important to TFC (and the other Canadian teams). You could even argue that it's more important.

I Agree.

Waggy
10-21-2011, 01:38 PM
For a Canadian MLS team to win the Supporters Shield and NOT win the NCC it'd take an act of god. I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about that sort of eventuality.

edit: we have a four team tourny to make CL. I don't see how Concacaf would possibly give us a guaranteed birth unless our MLS teams were SO good for SO long that they couldn't justify keeping us out. Given the parity in MLS, unless the league quality really jumps that's another thing that'll never happen. Besides, honestly, a 4 team tourny isn't that much. A club that doesn't win it doesn't deserve to be in CL. Simple as that

Yohan
10-21-2011, 02:09 PM
Do teams like Cardiff and Swansea not get a welsh spot for UEFA but have to qualify as an English position??

IIRC there was a bit of confusion about this two years ago when Cardiff made it to FA Cup final?

JamboAl
10-21-2011, 02:42 PM
IIRC there was a bit of confusion about this two years ago when Cardiff made it to FA Cup final?

I think Cardiff could have qualified as an "English club" as they, Swansea, Newport County, Wrexham and Merthyr Tydfil (don't know if the last club is still around) got dispensation from the Welsh FA to play in the English pyramid system when the League of Wales was set up a number of years ago. If I recall, those clubs are essentially "persona non grata" for Welsh Cup competitions and that's why you no longer see them in European competitions when they were mainstays in the old Cup Winners Cup 20 years ago.

NBS
10-21-2011, 02:48 PM
Canada should not got automatic entry into the group stage, however I agree with some posters here about:

1) Defending champion should always get a guaranteed spot
2) Canadian team should be able to qualify to the champions league via MLS.

Imagine the MLS CHAMPION not qualifying for the CHAMPION'S league because they don't win the NCC. Pure sillyness.

LittleOzzy
10-21-2011, 02:50 PM
A lot of talk here is about adding a second spot for another Canadian team. In no way do I think that should happen and even stated so in my original comment.

What I'm talking about, based on performance alone and the quality of the Canadian teams I think we deserve to skip the Preliminary Round of CCL play.

rockxlee
10-21-2011, 02:52 PM
IIRC there was a bit of confusion about this two years ago when Cardiff made it to FA Cup final?

Those 2 teams cannot qualify to europe through and english competition.
They participate every year in the tournament knowing this.
If they wanted to qualify for champs league they'd need to win the Welsh premiere league.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-21-2011, 03:03 PM
Should have nothing to do with that.

If you were to move to a co-efficient based system, Canada would be ahead of Panama and entitled to a second spot based on the club performances.

Granted a 4 club operation doesn't deserve a 2nd spot, but if you go on performance alone, Canada is deserving of an automatic qualifier and a preliminary spot.


yeah my bad, wrote this as i woke up this morning, i was thinking more as a national league (obviously not getting a first division here), like when the bundesliga got an extra slot and the serie a lost one

spe18
10-21-2011, 04:03 PM
Canada should not got automatic entry into the group stage, however I agree with some posters here about:

1) Defending champion should always get a guaranteed spot
2) Canadian team should be able to qualify to the champions league via MLS.

Imagine the MLS CHAMPION not qualifying for the CHAMPION'S league because they don't win the NCC. Pure sillyness.

That maybe true, but then the question is would the USSF even care about? Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm understanding there's already been major disagreement between the USSF (and the CSA for that matter) and MLS with regards to how referring should be done?

NBS
10-21-2011, 06:52 PM
That maybe true, but then the question is would the USSF even care about? Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm understanding there's already been major disagreement between the USSF (and the CSA for that matter) and MLS with regards to how referring should be done?

Well considering that US MLS teams can qualify through MLS or US Open championship, it would be a double standard to exclude Canadian teams from having the same alternatives. If an American team loses a spot in the CCL to a second Canadian team so be it. Fair is fair. However I'm well aware that when it comes to the power that be in this sport (especially this region), what's fair rarely matters.

Yeoman
10-21-2011, 07:05 PM
last to my knowledge, they were looking at getting rid of one of the US spots anyways.

PAOK17
10-22-2011, 05:38 AM
First, the National Team should have nothing to do with this (for those that mentioned it). The coefficient system in UEFA is based on club team performances in UEFA competitions only. That's why the Dutch league, though from the currently second strongest European National Team is ranked 9th or 8th in the UEFA league coefficients as their clubs are rather mediocre compared to those coming from England, Spain, Italy and Germany.

Second, I don't think the number of teams in your league/competition should dictate how many spots you have. If our team continuously outperforms teams from Honduras, Panama and Costa Rica then their league is most likely weaker than ours. Again UEFA coefficients as an example bases the number of teams only on the performances of teams in the actual competition (CL or Europa). Let me ask many of you this question. If for some reason, Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Totenham and City decided that the Premiership was too diluted of talent and wanted to create an even higher division with six teams from which the CL places would be determined. Assuming that the talent level of the 6 elite stays the same, would you be arguing that England should have reduced representation based on their league structure, even if English teams continue to just as well as they are now in CL? If you think about it, most leagues are basically made of the same handful of teams at the top mixed in with a drop in quality in the rest of the league. Leagues are usually won or lost based on the matches between the top ranked teams. Another example is the World Cup qualifiers where you have CONMEBOL, a federation of 10 teams with the potential of sending 5! teams to the WC. The strong showing of South American teams have earned them this spot.

In short, if giving us an automatic berth improves the CCL competitions by replacing a potentially weaker team with a stronger one, it shouldn't matter how that team got there.

Yohan
10-23-2011, 06:42 PM
Well considering that US MLS teams can qualify through MLS or US Open championship, it would be a double standard to exclude Canadian teams from having the same alternatives. If an American team loses a spot in the CCL to a second Canadian team so be it. Fair is fair. However I'm well aware that when it comes to the power that be in this sport (especially this region), what's fair rarely matters.
you still don't understand that MLS is an USSF sanctioned league, and not a CSA sanctioned league

NBS
10-24-2011, 04:20 AM
you still don't understand that MLS is an USSF sanctioned league, and not a CSA sanctioned league

Doesn't really change my opinion though.

Kaz
10-24-2011, 11:55 AM
None of the Automatic Group Stage berth go to nations with Leagues with fewer then 10 teams.
All the leagues are considered fairly strong.

No team gets one automatic berth currently without a second Preliminary berth.

I don't see Canada getting an automatic berth for a long while.
More then that Canada has only been in the group stage 3 times in the last 4 years. Sure we've gone to the Semi's twice but thanks to our loss to Porto Rico in 2009 it will be a while to argue that we should be further up.

now last year Panama was given an automatic berth over El Salvador. So could Canada be given a free in.. I don't know.

Ok quick refresher on who get berths.

Right now MLS teams need to learn how to play both leagues better. Roster Depth seems to be the killer for MLS team in the Champions League.

Mexico 4 possible Berths.
Automatic Group Stage
Champion of the Apertura
Champion of the Clausura
Preliminary Round
Runner-up of Apertura
Runner-up of Clausura

US 4 possible Berths.
Automatic Group Stage
MLS Supporters Shield
MLS Cup winner
Preliminary Round.
MLS Cup Runner Up
US Open Cup winner.

Honduras, Guatemala, and Panama
2 possible Berths each
Automatic Group Stage
Apertura Champion
Preliminary Round
Clausura Champion

Costa Rica
2 possible Berths
Automatic Group Stage
Invierno Chamption
Preliminary Round
Invierno Runner-up

CFU
3 possible Berths.
Preliminary Round
CFU Championship winner
CFU Championship runner up
CFU Championship third place.

El Salvador
2 possible berths
Preliminary Round.
Apertura Champion
Clausura Champion

Canada 1 possible Berth
Preliminary Round.
Canadian Champion

Nicaragua
1 possible Berth
Preliminary Round.
Champion with better aggregate record

Belize
Preliminary Round.
1 possible Berth
PML champion. (Missed this year due to Stadium not meeting, awarded extra berth to Honduras)


Automatic Group Stage
Mexico 2
US 2
Honduras, Costa Rica, Guatemala, and Panama 1 each

Preliminary Round
Mexico 2
US 2
Honduras, Costa Rica, Guatemala, and Panama 1 each
CFU 3
El Salvador 2
Canada 1
Nicaragua 1
Belize 1

ryan
10-24-2011, 12:49 PM
I know you guize are talking about berths and such, but on the same topic of this competition I'd like to understand why....


there's a bloody 5 month layoff between group and knockout stages?

Now that we're going through it, it's rather absurd to lose the excitement of progression to sit on our hands for ages...I mean we could have totally different teams playing in March than the ones that got us there. Rather silly.

The knockout stage is only 6 match dates....could we not move this competition back a month or so to accomodate?

If they don't want CCL and MLS knockout rounds happening at once, then why not start this thing in April? CCL will finish before MLS ends.


I dunno, just don't like this massive lay off at all....and now that I care since we're in it, I felt like voicing that.

redcard
10-24-2011, 01:40 PM
i dont see why we cant play in november, but home games in dec, jan, feb...a little cold to play, and i wouldnt want to play Skydome.

PAOK17
10-24-2011, 01:46 PM
^^I'm sure it only seems that way because we have a summer season and the CCL is only 16 team league and not 32 the way UEFA CL is. I'm sure the group stage is rushed to end by October to accommodate the MLS in terms of playoffs AND because no one wants games in Northern US/Canada in December the way UEFA does theirs. It wouldn't seem like a 5 month layoff if we were in a warmer country where they had a winter season.

As for the berths argument. I still stand by the argument that a coefficient system be established which ranks leagues based on the performances of representing teams. If there is one time to use stats it's for cases like this. The fact the US gets 4 teams (the same amount as Mexico) despite only ever getting one team past the quarters should suggest that there needs to be some re-evaluating of the berth system. What happens if 2 Canadian teams meet each other at an MLS Cup Final. Of course I wouldn't ask for one of our teams to take a USSF spot but in that case it'd be hard to argue that Canada has one representative when two of it's clubs finished ahead of every team from a league that has 4 representatives.

Just bring in a coefficient system!

lobo
10-25-2011, 12:18 PM
Canada should not got automatic entry into the group stage.

why not? at the very least, after canadian team's performance in past few years, why not?

if Costa Rica, Honduras, Guatemala and Panama all get direct entry into group stage (as well as 2nd team at prelim stage), then why should we not go in at group stage?

Brocko
10-25-2011, 02:57 PM
For a Canadian MLS team to win the Supporters Shield and NOT win the NCC it'd take an act of god. I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about that sort of eventuality.

edit: we have a four team tourny to make CL. I don't see how Concacaf would possibly give us a guaranteed birth unless our MLS teams were SO good for SO long that they couldn't justify keeping us out. Given the parity in MLS, unless the league quality really jumps that's another thing that'll never happen. Besides, honestly, a 4 team tourny isn't that much. A club that doesn't win it doesn't deserve to be in CL. Simple as that
What if in 2018 Vancouver won the Supporter Sheild, TFC the MLS Cup and Montreal the NCC...then what?

spe18
10-25-2011, 06:31 PM
What if in 2018 Vancouver won the Supporter Sheild, TFC the MLS Cup and Montreal the NCC...then what?

Do you mean what would happen to the CCL allocation berths? If so, assuming we use the allocation setup as of today, 2011, then Montreal would get the Canadian berth as the champions of the NCC.

The team that finishes 2nd in the MLS tables would get the spot (unless if TFC is 2nd, then it'd be the 3rd place team, as it's the highest ranking US team that gets the spot).

The US based team that finishes in the runner up for the MLS cup would get the spot that TFC would've gotten (unless it's Vancouver that was runnerup, in which case it's the 3rd place US based team that gets the spot). Keeping in mind it's up to the USSF to make the final decision!

KezmanCCCC
10-25-2011, 06:41 PM
everything is fine the way it is for now... in time maybe things with change if its for the better...

NBS
10-25-2011, 06:46 PM
why not? at the very least, after canadian team's performance in past few years, why not?

if Costa Rica, Honduras, Guatemala and Panama all get direct entry into group stage (as well as 2nd team at prelim stage), then why should we not go in at group stage?

Actually I'm going to agree with that. My initial thought process was that winning a four team tournament is not doing enough to earn a spot in the group stages, however, that thinking is flawed.

The point of the tournament is to get the best teams in the region, while trying to maintain some level of region wide representation (because if it was ONLY about the best teams in the region, Mexican teams would make up probably 8 of the group stage spots).

If the Canadian team continues to outperform teams from other parts of the region, then yes, it should get automatic qualification.

Wilbix
10-27-2011, 12:55 PM
Should have nothing to do with that.

If you were to move to a co-efficient based system, Canada would be ahead of Panama and entitled to a second spot based on the club performances.


I should be studying, so obviously I used UEFA's coefficient calculation formula to calculate the coefficients from the first full 3 years (and this half year) of the CCL. Here are my results:

The Formula
1 point per qualifying round win
0.5 points per qualifying round draw

2 points per group stage or knockout stage win
1 point per group stage or knockout stage draw
(minimum of 2 points for a team competing in the group stage, regardless of number of points earned)

1 bonus point per round advanced past the group stage (e.g. making the first knockout stage of CCL = 1 point, making the semifinals = 2, making the finals = 3)

Add up all the results from a country's teams, and divide the result by the number of teams from that cuntry competing during a given year.

The Results

2008-09

Mexico - 15.500
Canada - 12.500
Honduras - 8.750
CFU - 6.500
Panama - 5.250
Costa Rica - 3.750
El Salvador - 3.000
Guatemala - 3.000
USA - 2.875
Nicaragua - 1.000
Belize - 0

2009-10

Mexico - 19.125
Honduras - 5.666
USA - 5.375
Panama - 5.000
CFU - 4.666
Guatemala - 4.000
Costa Rica - 1.833
El Salvador - 1.500
Canada - 0.500
**Belize and Nicaragua did not compete

2010-11

Mexico - 15.000
USA - 8.125
Costa Rica - 7.750
Canada - 7.500
Honduras - 5.166
CFU - 3.500
Guatemala - 3.250
El Salvador - 2.000
Panama - 1.000
** Belize and Nicaragua did not compete

2011-12 (in progress, only up to group stage)

Mexico - 9.000
Canada - 9.000
USA - 7.000
Costa Rica - 6.750
El Salvador - 3.500
Guatemala - 3.000
Honduras - 2.666
Panama - 2.500
CFU - 0.500
Nicaragua - 0
** Belize did not compete

Average National Coefficients

I decided to go with the coefficients from the first 3 complete years in calculating how many teams 'should' be in from each country, but include the average including this year' group stage in parentheses for your reference.

Mexico - 16.541 (14.656)
Canada - 6.833 (7.375)
Honduras - 6.527 (5.562)
USA - 5.458 (5.843)
CFU - 4.888 (3.791)
Costa Rica - 4.444 (5.020)
Panama - 3.750 (3.437)
Guatemala -3.416 (3.312)
El Salvador - 2.166 (2.500)
Nicaragua - 1.000 (0.500)
Belize - 0.000 (0.000)

Over/under representation

Mexico - deserves 4 places - gets them
Canada - deserves 4 places - gets 1 (-3)
Honduras - deserves 3 places - gets 2 (-1)
USA - deserves 3 places - gets 4 (+1)
CFU - deserves 2 places - gets 3 (+1)
Costa Rica - deserves 2 places - gets them
Panama - deserves 2 places - gets them
Guatemala - deserves 1 place - gets 2 (+1)
El Salvador - deserves 1 place - gets 2 (+1)
Nicaragua - deserves 1 place - gets it
Belize - deserves 1 place - gets it

Conclusions

If were were to go to a co-efficient based system, retaining the breakdown of total allocation, Canada and Honduras are under-represented, while USA, CFU, Guatemala, and El Salvador are over-represented.

Kaz
10-27-2011, 06:41 PM
What if in 2018 Vancouver won the Supporter Sheild, TFC the MLS Cup and Montreal the NCC...then what?

That is easy.
MOntreal goes to the CCL for Canada

The American Team with the Highest and Second Highest point total goes to the CCL.

Kaz
10-27-2011, 06:54 PM
Conclusions

If were were to go to a co-efficient based system, retaining the breakdown of total allocation, Canada and Honduras are under-represented, while USA, CFU, Guatemala, and El Salvador are over-represented.

The only issue with that is that if Canada had 4 teams things would look different. do you think FC Edmonton would even win a match?

American teams do poorly because they are developing and honestly haven't been trying, I think this year we saw the most effort of MLS teams in the CCL in a while as a group.

I honestly think that is why Montreal did so well, they fought for every game, and pushed as hard as they could.. and had they not been dumb as fuck in Mexico daring Santos to score for the whole game rather turtling and playing total anti-football, they may have made it to the Semi Final round.

But over all Canada has the number of Spots it should have. Even with a co-efficient (we don't have a national domestic league I mean come on, though the NCC was almost becoming one until they changed the format)

If TFC goes to the Semi's this year then my suggestion would be give Canada a Pass into the Group stage. And have the NCC be a mini League structure with the top Canadian USL/NASL team against the 3 MLS team in a home away series. With the top team on advancing.

That would mean Canadian teams would have 6 NCC matches to play which would help develop soccer in Canada, instead of 4 NCC matches and 2 Prelim Matches for the NCC winner.

Wilbix
10-28-2011, 09:39 AM
I do agree that 4 seems like a lot of teams for Canada, but the good thing about hte coefficient system is that it is self-correcting. If you were to put 4 teams in next year (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton), and 2 of the four were blown out in the preliminary stage, Canada's coefficient would plummet, as the coefficient for the year would be divided by 4 rather than 1.

117
10-28-2011, 11:38 AM
I've found this discussion quite interesting, and have learned a lot. Thanks to everyone for your insight!

ManUtd4ever
10-28-2011, 12:12 PM
I should be studying, so obviously I used UEFA's coefficient calculation formula to calculate the coefficients from the first full 3 years (and this half year) of the CCL. Here are my results:

The Formula
1 point per qualifying round win
0.5 points per qualifying round draw

2 points per group stage or knockout stage win
1 point per group stage or knockout stage draw
(minimum of 2 points for a team competing in the group stage, regardless of number of points earned)

1 bonus point per round advanced past the group stage (e.g. making the first knockout stage of CCL = 1 point, making the semifinals = 2, making the finals = 3)

Add up all the results from a country's teams, and divide the result by the number of teams from that cuntry competing during a given year.

The Results

2008-09

Mexico - 15.500
Canada - 12.500
Honduras - 8.750
CFU - 6.500
Panama - 5.250
Costa Rica - 3.750
El Salvador - 3.000
Guatemala - 3.000
USA - 2.875
Nicaragua - 1.000
Belize - 0

2009-10

Mexico - 19.125
Honduras - 5.666
USA - 5.375
Panama - 5.000
CFU - 4.666
Guatemala - 4.000
Costa Rica - 1.833
El Salvador - 1.500
Canada - 0.500
**Belize and Nicaragua did not compete

2010-11

Mexico - 15.000
USA - 8.125
Costa Rica - 7.750
Canada - 7.500
Honduras - 5.166
CFU - 3.500
Guatemala - 3.250
El Salvador - 2.000
Panama - 1.000
** Belize and Nicaragua did not compete

2011-12 (in progress, only up to group stage)

Mexico - 9.000
Canada - 9.000
USA - 7.000
Costa Rica - 6.750
El Salvador - 3.500
Guatemala - 3.000
Honduras - 2.666
Panama - 2.500
CFU - 0.500
Nicaragua - 0
** Belize did not compete

Average National Coefficients

I decided to go with the coefficients from the first 3 complete years in calculating how many teams 'should' be in from each country, but include the average including this year' group stage in parentheses for your reference.

Mexico - 16.541 (14.656)
Canada - 6.833 (7.375)
Honduras - 6.527 (5.562)
USA - 5.458 (5.843)
CFU - 4.888 (3.791)
Costa Rica - 4.444 (5.020)
Panama - 3.750 (3.437)
Guatemala -3.416 (3.312)
El Salvador - 2.166 (2.500)
Nicaragua - 1.000 (0.500)
Belize - 0.000 (0.000)

Over/under representation

Mexico - deserves 4 places - gets them
Canada - deserves 4 places - gets 1 (-3)
Honduras - deserves 3 places - gets 2 (-1)
USA - deserves 3 places - gets 4 (+1)
CFU - deserves 2 places - gets 3 (+1)
Costa Rica - deserves 2 places - gets them
Panama - deserves 2 places - gets them
Guatemala - deserves 1 place - gets 2 (+1)
El Salvador - deserves 1 place - gets 2 (+1)
Nicaragua - deserves 1 place - gets it
Belize - deserves 1 place - gets it

Conclusions

If were were to go to a co-efficient based system, retaining the breakdown of total allocation, Canada and Honduras are under-represented, while USA, CFU, Guatemala, and El Salvador are over-represented.

Excellent post.

I absolutely agree that Canada deserves and an automatic spot in the CCL group stage, and the data you compiled provides compelling evidence to that effect. Furthermore, I believe the CSA could easily make a case for Canada having two representatives in the CCL ahead of countries like El Salvador and Guatemala.

Ideally, I would eventually like to see the winner of the NCC automatically qualify for the CCL group stage, and the runner up in the NCC qualify for the CCL preliminary round. I think that would be far more balanced in terms of representation within CONCACAF.