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Yohan
10-20-2011, 03:04 PM
Because we can never stop talking about DeRo :p

Dwayne De Rosario (AM/ST)
-32 games, 16 goals, 12 assists

Brad Davis (LW)
-33 games, 4 goals, 15 assists

Brek Shea (LW)
-31 games, 11 goals, 4 assists

Kyle Beckerman (DM)
-29 games, 3 goals, 9 assists

Mauro Rosales (RW)
-25 games, 5 goals, 13 assists

Thierry Henry (ST)
-26 games, 14 goals, 4 assists

David Beckham (RM/CM)
-26 games, 2 goals, 15 assists

Landon Donovan (RW/LW/ST)
-23 games, 12 goals, 3 assists

Sebastian Le Toux (ST/LW)
-33 games, 11 goals, 9 assists

Chris Wondolowski (ST)
-29 games, 15 goals, 3 assists

Fredy Montero (ST)
-29 games, 12 goals, 9 assists

trane
10-20-2011, 03:06 PM
De Roogsy will explode.

Pookie
10-20-2011, 03:09 PM
We can stop talking about him. How can a player be the most valuable to his team when he gets traded from 2 of them in the same season and the one he ends with misses the playoffs?

werewolf
10-20-2011, 03:12 PM
He can be MVP because he is the leading scorer of the league, and has the most goal + assists. It's not his fault he was on teams that weren't performing as a whole.

Yohan
10-20-2011, 03:13 PM
We can stop talking about him. How can a player be the most valuable to his team when he gets traded from 2 of them in the same season and the one he ends with misses the playoffs?
because he singlehandly put DC back on playoff contention? no matter how you look at it, what he did in DC and his numbers do not lie. (as much as I think Brad Davis should get the nod for 'carrying the team on his shoulder' award)

Yohan
10-20-2011, 03:14 PM
He can be MVP because he is the leading scorer of the league, and has the most goal + assists. It's not his fault he was on teams that weren't performing as a whole.
there is a soccer god that twat Davies shat the bed in 2nd half of the season

PS: let's not drag this into another TFC shouldn't have traded DeRo discussion

ManUtd4ever
10-20-2011, 03:15 PM
Based on overall stats, it's not even close. DeRo deserves it.

Yohan
10-20-2011, 03:17 PM
another guy who really crept up into MVP picture is Montero. started off really slow, but he's scoring a lot of clutch goals and putting up key assists, esp in CCL

Oldtimer
10-20-2011, 03:21 PM
DeRo.

trane
10-20-2011, 03:24 PM
We need to get De Ro back, for the CL.



[joke]

trane
10-20-2011, 03:28 PM
De Ro on the current team playing like the AM, would be great. Roogsy, any thoughts?

ArmenJBX
10-20-2011, 03:54 PM
No, he wouldn't be playing great in CAM here, simply because we don't use a CAM every match.

Avila can slot into CAM when our triangle calls for two CDM's, but he can also play as a RW or a RAM.
De Rosario is his own player, he doesn't "fit" anywhere.

Canary10
10-20-2011, 03:57 PM
No, he wouldn't be playing great in CAM here, simply because we don't use a CAM every match.

Avila can slot into CAM when our triangle calls for two CDM's, but he can also play as a RW or a RAM.
De Rosario is his own player, he doesn't "fit" anywhere.

I agree, but he could probably play on the wing though. (If you had to "fit" him in). You're right though, he is his own player.

[NBF]
10-20-2011, 04:03 PM
Someone brought up the interview Aron Winters did about certain players being told to play in the new system and they reverted to playing the old system. I think that was all about DeRosario and he was shipped because he wouldnt adapt.

As far as MVP, something tells me Sebastien LeToux will get the nod but only because he is similar numbers to DeRosario wand his team is in the playoffs.

Roogsy
10-20-2011, 04:08 PM
Funny enough, I see the argument for Davis. He is a big reason Houston is in a solid playoff spot.

The trading DeRo thing is a red herring. Contract issues (Toronto) or team deficiencies (NY) have nothing to do with the abilities of the player himself. DC made it clear they had been pursuing him for some time and when they finally did land him, he had an impact. The length of time it took for him to get there is irrelevant.

There is an argument for both players. If DC had made the playoffs I think it would be difficult to argue against DeRo but with DC shitting the bed in the last couple of weeks it makes it a harder argument.

Another interesting development is that Dwayne may win both the MVP and the Golden Boot.

ginkster88
10-20-2011, 04:20 PM
If DC were in the playoffs he'd be the only candidate.

rocker
10-20-2011, 04:30 PM
how do you define MVP?

if it's purely stats, then De Ro wins... but then using only goals and assists stats means excluding defenders and goalkeepers, who also can make MVP contributions.

I'm a little bit put off by giving an MVP of the league award to a guy traded by two teams in the same season. Obviously NY and TFC didn't think he was a "must have" most valuable guy if they traded him (if someone is most valuable, wouldn't a team hold on to him at all costs?).

Now, he certainly was the MVP of DC United, if they have a team award for that.

Shakes McQueen
10-20-2011, 04:35 PM
I think you could make a case for David Beckham. Lots of assists, which is what he's ultimately paid to contribute, on a team that absolutely dominated this season.

- Scott

ensco
10-20-2011, 04:42 PM
Speaking of LA, surprised no one thinks Donovan could get it. His strike rate is right there with Dero, he has the name recognition, and he plays for the best team in the league.

Yohan
10-20-2011, 04:54 PM
Speaking of LA, surprised no one thinks Donovan could get it. His strike rate is right there with Dero, he has the name recognition, and he plays for the best team in the league.
not been getting a lot of PR (well, by Landycakes standards) this season. been eclipsed by Becks and Robbie Keane in that department

plus he's a fucking douche

Chevy
10-20-2011, 04:59 PM
We can stop talking about him. How can a player be the most valuable to his team when he gets traded from 2 of them in the same season and the one he ends with misses the playoffs?

+1. MVP = Most Valuable Pain in the A$$

Discruptive cancer in Toronto. Unwanted/needed in NY. Potted a few for a horrid DC team with minimal attacking options. All three teams may not make the playoffs.

I guess it comes down to the definition of MVP, but I will take a pass.

Shakes McQueen
10-20-2011, 05:01 PM
Donovan's numbers become more impressive when you recognize that he also played nine fewer games than DeRo.

- Scott

brad
10-20-2011, 05:02 PM
I know that a lot of the folks that vote place a lot of stock on Game Winning Goals which puts Shea and Montero (both at 5) ahead of DeRo (at 3). I don't agree with holding that metric as highly as the goal or two after a game winner are crucial to how the rest of the game plays out.

A little while back Ives had DeRo at 4th because of this.

Chevy
10-20-2011, 05:03 PM
....as an aside, somebody wake up the guy in charge of adding extra pages to internet board discussions. He's gonna be friggin busy.

Yohan
10-20-2011, 05:05 PM
+1. MVP = Most Valuable Pain in the A$$

Discruptive cancer in Toronto. Unwanted/needed in NY. Potted a few for a horrid DC team with minimal attacking options. All three teams may not make the playoffs.

I guess it comes down to the definition of MVP, but I will take a pass.
clearly you don't pay attention to DC

ag futbol
10-20-2011, 05:10 PM
Dero had a great season but I don't think he can get the nod considering DCU's overall performance. The way MVP voting goes, you'll get punished if your team is slack.

I'll take Shea first (although FCD's recent form makes that a harder choice) and Rosales second. Although, I can see the Landycakes argument as well...

jloome
10-20-2011, 05:12 PM
I don't think the league would give it to DeRo in a season in which he was traded twice. In NY, it came right after coming out and talking about his contract again.

Someone can rack up points all night long, but if the net result is that the rest of the team can't play a dependable system, a league like MLS --where journeymen have to perform week in and out -- is going to have a lot of teams say the trade off isn't worth it.

I don't think he would be a good AM for us. DeRo isn't inclined to play in a system that's designed to keep shape and open up the field for other players. He might score 15 goals here, too, but if the rest of the team only scores 10, bye bye playoffs.

habstfc
10-20-2011, 05:37 PM
I think if DC made the playoffs De Ro wins without any debate but all 3 teams he played for this season might not even make the playoffs, we'll see what happens with new york in their last game.


There are arguments to be made whether getting into the playoffs is the only barometer to measure if he's eligible to win mvp or not. I don't think that's the only measuring stick but it is a major factor, having said that i believe he should win mvp. There is alot to say about his performance after being a leper here and in new york in the same year.

He should win but he won't.

TFC USA
10-20-2011, 05:41 PM
Dero produced with three different teams in one season.

He's also in his 30s and should be on the downside of his career.

MVP with no other arguments.

rocker
10-20-2011, 06:00 PM
I don't think the league would give it to DeRo in a season in which he was traded twice. In NY, it came right after coming out and talking about his contract again.

Someone can rack up points all night long, but if the net result is that the rest of the team can't play a dependable system, a league like MLS --where journeymen have to perform week in and out -- is going to have a lot of teams say the trade off isn't worth it.

I don't think he would be a good AM for us. DeRo isn't inclined to play in a system that's designed to keep shape and open up the field for other players. He might score 15 goals here, too, but if the rest of the team only scores 10, bye bye playoffs.

I agree with all three points here.

One thing to add: De Ro's career shows that he has better stats on worse teams. So in San Jose and Houston, his raw numbers were lower than in Toronto and DC. I think that jives with your assessment.

In other words, on poor teams he decided to just do it himself, which can win games singlehandedly. But if you want to develop a strong team, De Ro must subordinate himself to the system and to his teammates (if he wants to do that) and that lowers his stats.

There's that old term "ball hog." De Ro is like that. Now, if you succeed more often than not, people praise you for it. If you fail, people use that term.

v00d00daddy
10-20-2011, 07:34 PM
I'd give it to dero based solely on his numbers.

He can mount the award in a nice case next to the jerseys of the three teams he played with this year. Lol

I really don't care if he wins it. Doesn't make me regret the trade away from tfc one bit.

He can win the MVP every year if it means tfc continue to head in the direction they've been heading the last while.

When tfc are playing in the final 8 of ccl in march dero's MVP award and the time he spent here will be an even more distant memory.

Waggy
10-20-2011, 07:57 PM
Dero is def the MVP this year, don't see any real competition. Good for him. It's unfortunate in all sports there's no way to quantify intagibles.

torontocelt
10-20-2011, 08:50 PM
We can stop talking about him. How can a player be the most valuable to his team when he gets traded from 2 of them in the same season and the one he ends with misses the playoffs?

Some would argue his return is even more impressive considering he has moved clubs several times, playing with players he was unfamiliar with. Also impressive in that he scored so heavily for a team that was not a play off team. I never even mentioned his assists which prove he is not as selfish or ball greedy as some make out.

LittleOzzy
10-21-2011, 08:14 AM
Personally I think the MVP should come from a playoff bound team.

Wooster_TFC
10-21-2011, 09:10 AM
What about Kasey Keller? Probably the only keeper to merit real consideration this year, but I don't think Seattle would be where they are without him (and Montero clearly).

Roogsy
10-21-2011, 09:37 AM
Some would argue his return is even more impressive considering he has moved clubs several times, playing with players he was unfamiliar with. Also impressive in that he scored so heavily for a team that was not a play off team. I never even mentioned his assists which prove he is not as selfish or ball greedy as some make out.

I am finding it amusing that people are acting like Toronto didn't want him and he would not have "fit" in this system when in fact Winter did want him and what really happened was that they could not come to a contractual agreement.

The numbers he put up this year would have benefited Toronto, period. Thinking otherwise is just intentionally trying to convince yourself we didn't need him. Like the guy who gets dumped by the hot girl but then runs around telling people he never liked her...

Canary10
10-21-2011, 09:49 AM
I am finding it amusing that people are acting like Toronto didn't want him and he would not have "fit" in this system when in fact Winter did want him and what really happened was that they could not come to a contractual agreement.

The numbers he put up this year would have benefited Toronto, period. Thinking otherwise is just intentionally trying to convince yourself we didn't need him. Like the guy who gets dumped by the hot girl but then runs around telling people he never liked her...

Tend to think you're right. I think he'd be playing essentially the Plata role if he were here, with Plata as a backup. He's very good cutting into the middle off the wing. I'm not a huge fan of his and am not unhappy with the trade, but I think that's where his fit would have been.

Also not really sure why making the playoffs is a prerequisite for league MVP? I can think of lots of cases where a player was really a cut above on a weaker team and a case could easily be made of them being MVP. Charlie Adam at Blackpool last year for example.

Pookie
10-21-2011, 11:25 AM
Some would argue his return is even more impressive considering he has moved clubs several times, playing with players he was unfamiliar with. Also impressive in that he scored so heavily for a team that was not a play off team. I never even mentioned his assists which prove he is not as selfish or ball greedy as some make out.

It is impressive, no question.

I'm simply talking about the nature of the award. Most Valuable Player.

Typically, it would be hard for a league to give it to a player that was deemed more valuable somewhere else by 2 teams and as others have pointed out, a player who ended up on a team that failed to make the playoffs. Sort of like the MVP of the Superbowl isn't usually the starting quarterback of the losing team.

Again, in fairness, not for a lack of trying on his part.

Just as an aside, the last 3 seasons, the MVP winner has not been the golden boot winner.

And not once in the last decade has the MVP come from a non-playoff team. 8 times it came from the team that finished First overall.

If DeRo does win it, it would be relatively unprecedented and something he could leverage with the league for a new contract... the one that he backed the league into a corner publicly over.

Speaking completely from a practical perspective and knowing the history of the award and the politics around DeRo's year, you really think he will win?

Shakes McQueen
10-21-2011, 11:41 AM
But the league doesn't pick the MVP, does it? It's usually a collection of journalists that cover the league.

- Scott

Roogsy
10-21-2011, 11:41 AM
But the league doesn't pick the MVP, does it? It's usually a collection of journalists that cover the league.

- Scott


I was going to ask this question. Who picks the MVP?

Pookie
10-21-2011, 12:00 PM
There are actually 3 voters.

Media, MLS Players and MLS GM's/Coaches.

Each group gets a 1/3 voice.


Soccer writers have their own award. North American Soccer Reporters (NASR) Player of the Year

http://www.soccerreporters.com/2010-mls-player-of-the-year-david-ferreira-fc-dallas/

TFC USA
10-21-2011, 12:05 PM
But the league doesn't pick the MVP, does it? It's usually a collection of journalists that cover the league.

- Scott

Fuck. That means Donovan and Becks as #1 and #2.

TFC OZZ
10-21-2011, 12:27 PM
DeRo definitely deserves it.

ag futbol
10-21-2011, 12:28 PM
In other words, on poor teams he decided to just do it himself, which can win games singlehandedly. But if you want to develop a strong team, De Ro must subordinate himself to the system and to his teammates (if he wants to do that) and that lowers his stats.

There's that old term "ball hog." De Ro is like that. Now, if you succeed more often than not, people praise you for it. If you fail, people use that term.
I agree to a certain point but at the same time...

There's also that impossible argument of "what's this guy's real position?". In Houston he was pretty much always their AM, but in my opinion he's much more like a striker (but he doesn't like to be called that). So of course his numbers are going to boost when you put him in a more advanced position, regardless of what the rest of the team looks like.

It should be noted he has also won games single handedly in those teams your describing as more of a system.

Whoop
10-21-2011, 12:38 PM
I'm not a DeRo fan but even I can see that he deserves the MVP this season.

Roogsy
10-21-2011, 12:40 PM
I agree to a certain point but at the same time...

There's also that impossible argument of "what's this guy's real position?". In Houston he was pretty much always their AM, but in my opinion he's much more like a striker (but he doesn't like to be called that). So of course his numbers are going to boost when you put him in a more advanced position, regardless of what the rest of the team looks like.

It should be noted he has also won games single handedly in those teams your describing as more of a system.


I was wondering when someone would finally mention that. The whole "ball-hog" issue has already disproven by not only his stats this year but his previous successes, and yet it keeps rearing it's head.

ManUtd4ever
10-21-2011, 12:58 PM
I agree that DeRo would have conceivably made our current group of forwards even more dangerous offensively.

Of course, his salary would have likely prevented us from acquiring Frings and Koevermans, so it's really a moot point.

torontocelt
10-21-2011, 01:01 PM
It is impressive, no question.

I'm simply talking about the nature of the award. Most Valuable Player.

Typically, it would be hard for a league to give it to a player that was deemed more valuable somewhere else by 2 teams and as others have pointed out, a player who ended up on a team that failed to make the playoffs. Sort of like the MVP of the Superbowl isn't usually the starting quarterback of the losing team.

Again, in fairness, not for a lack of trying on his part.

Just as an aside, the last 3 seasons, the MVP winner has not been the golden boot winner.

And not once in the last decade has the MVP come from a non-playoff team. 8 times it came from the team that finished First overall.

If DeRo does win it, it would be relatively unprecedented and something he could leverage with the league for a new contract... the one that he backed the league into a corner publicly over.

Speaking completely from a practical perspective and knowing the history of the award and the politics around DeRo's year, you really think he will win?

Do you guys judge an mvp award different from a best player award? Part of your argument is how can Dero win it as he was traded twice so how can he be most valuable to his teams? If the award was deemed the best player of the league award I dont think that part of your argument would hold much weight. For me they are basically the same thing but for you perhaps not?

Carts
10-21-2011, 01:03 PM
Sadly, I don't watch nearly enough 'other market' games to name a MVP... :(

I wish I did...

Stryker
10-21-2011, 01:04 PM
Diva Ro should win it.

Still glad he's gone though.

Pookie
10-21-2011, 01:06 PM
Do you guys judge an mvp award different from a best player award? Part of your argument is how can Dero win it as he was traded twice so how can he be most valuable to his teams? If the award was deemed the best player of the league award I dont think that part of your argument would hold much weight. For me they are basically the same thing but for you perhaps not?

Honestly, I dontbput a lot of stock in the award anyways. Most MVP type awards go to the best player on the winning team not necessarily the best player.

If DeRo doesn't win, it doesn't make his accomplishments any less impressive.

Nor does it mean that the winner of the award is that much better.

Just trying to offer a practical perspective on this. In the last decade, the MVP has never come from a team that didn't make the playoffs.

DeRo had a better chance to win the award if DC made it. Now that they are on the outside looking in, it isnt so simple.

Yohan
11-07-2011, 11:55 PM
DeRo, Brek Shea and Brad Davis are three MVP finalists

Roogsy
11-07-2011, 11:59 PM
I think Davis has the advantage.

DeRo has a shot.

Shea has the lowest chances I think.

Cashcleaner
11-08-2011, 12:09 AM
De Ro deserves it simply for being able to make positive contributions no matter what team he's on. The fact that the guy has gone through three different clubs in such a relatively short amount of time doesn't detract from his performance, if anything, it should give more weight to the argument in his favour. He's been able to succeed almost anywhere he goes.

Roogsy
11-08-2011, 12:16 AM
I agree Cash but some have made it to seem like it should detract from his performance. I can't see how people don't see how amazing the performance is given the circumstances.

Cashcleaner
11-08-2011, 12:24 AM
^ Exactly. Think about all that moving around and instability the guy was facing. Going through all that would usually translate to a drop in performance, but no! He's still tied in first place for goals despite all that and placed 4th for assists.

Roogsy
11-08-2011, 12:25 AM
That being said, despite the fact that it is a regular season record, I can't imagine that Houston's performance to date, especially in the playoffs, won't play a part in the decision. Which is why I give the edge to Davis, although I do believe DeRo deserves it the most. Not because I am "pro DeRo" but purely based on merit.

Chevy
11-08-2011, 12:29 AM
De Ro deserves it simply for being able to make positive contributions no matter what team he's on. The fact that the guy has gone through three different clubs in such a relatively short amount of time doesn't detract from his performance, if anything, it should give more weight to the argument in his favour. He's been able to succeed almost anywhere he goes.

It may also suggest that he's not particularly valuable.

Roogsy
11-08-2011, 01:35 AM
DC fans and the club certainly believe he is deserving of the award.


He had 13 goals and seven assists in 18 games with D.C. United, winning four club awards: Most Valuable Player, Fans' Choice, Golden Boot, and Goal of the Year.

Pretty good stats for a washed up player.

jabbronies
11-08-2011, 01:41 AM
IMO - MeRo for MVP based on stats.

Anyone have a list of past MVP's? Would be nice to see if they were solely based on stats or if other factors played a role. I have a feeling this is a stats heavy award.

Roogsy
11-08-2011, 01:43 AM
According to one journalist, DeRo has a pretty good shot at it.

He also wrote this on the supposed "issue" of playing for 3 teams.


Some will make a big deal out of the fact that De Rosario played for three teams this season, but most voters will understand that Toronto FC traded him because of a contract dispute, not poor on-field performance. And New York voters know that he was dealt to D.C. United to make cap room for Designated Player keeper Frank Rost. In fact some NY votes might be influenced by how New York slumped after the Scarborough native left the club.I have been saying it since it happened. I know it falls on deaf ears so those same deaf ears can pretend not to hear me say "I told you so."


Despite a faction of TFC fans who have chosen the revisionist-history route and have sidled the club’s all-time leading scorer with the “MeRo” tag, the fact is most Canadian voters will likely have gone with their guy.Oh so very true.

jabbronies
11-08-2011, 01:46 AM
hmmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_MVP

Past MVP winners have won based on team performance, not just stats
An example is last year - Wando had more goals, but FCD player won

With that being said - I think Davis might win this one.

Yohan
11-08-2011, 01:51 AM
IMO - MeRo for MVP based on stats.

Anyone have a list of past MVP's? Would be nice to see if they were solely based on stats or if other factors played a role. I have a feeling this is a stats heavy award.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer_MVP_Award

Cashcleaner
11-08-2011, 02:09 AM
It may also suggest that he's not particularly valuable.

Possibly. But for all we know, Soler and Backe could be regretting the price they had to pay for McCarty and Rost.

Roogsy
11-08-2011, 02:16 AM
I know many NY fans that certainly do.

Brooker
11-08-2011, 05:36 AM
According to one journalist, DeRo has a pretty good shot at it.

He also wrote this on the supposed "issue" of playing for 3 teams.

I have been saying it since it happened. I know it falls on deaf ears so those same deaf ears can pretend not to hear me say "I told you so."

Oh so very true.

Now I know why you didn't cite your source. Steve fucking Sander. Lmfao.

Pookie
11-08-2011, 06:26 AM
IMO - MeRo for MVP based on stats.

Anyone have a list of past MVP's? Would be nice to see if they were solely based on stats or if other factors played a role. I have a feeling this is a stats heavy award.

A quick look at the last 3 seasons highlights that the MVP winner has not been the golden boot winner.

And not once in the last decade has the MVP come from a non-playoff team. 8 times it came from the team that finished First overall.

Odds are not in his favour.

Shakes McQueen
11-08-2011, 07:47 AM
De Ro deserves it simply for being able to make positive contributions no matter what team he's on. The fact that the guy has gone through three different clubs in such a relatively short amount of time doesn't detract from his performance, if anything, it should give more weight to the argument in his favour. He's been able to succeed almost anywhere he goes.

Objectively, if you base your MVP vote purely on statistics, I think DeRo should get it. MVP voting is always pretty nebulous though - for an example, read some of the convoluted pap MLB writers have to say about how they decide who to vote for.


Now I know why you didn't cite your source. Steve fucking Sander. Lmfao.

Who is Steve Sander, and why is it funny?

- Scott

Fort York Redcoat
11-08-2011, 08:15 AM
hmmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_MVP

Past MVP winners have won based on team performance, not just stats
An example is last year - Wando had more goals, but FCD player won

With that being said - I think Davis might win this one.

Wow. Interesting to see Preki '03 and Guevara '04 right after.



I put more into the Supporter's Shield than playoffs and MLS cup so by that definition I'd have to vote for someone on LA if I could bring myself to. Which I can't and is why I don't vote for these things.

DeRo is no MVP of the regular season because players play for a team.

DeRo has the golden boot award and I'll throw him a "Most Valuable Asset to be Traded" award.

These awards will hopefully be accompanied by the all-time leading scorer for Canada award by end of next Tuesday.:canada:

jabbronies
11-08-2011, 09:35 AM
A quick look at the last 3 seasons highlights that the MVP winner has not been the golden boot winner.

And not once in the last decade has the MVP come from a non-playoff team. 8 times it came from the team that finished First overall.

Odds are not in his favour.

The playoffs weigh heavily in this choice. Not surprised seeing that the MLS Cup is considered more of a celebration and spectacle than Supporters Shield by the league.

2/3 teams MeRo played for this year have not made the playoffs. Doesn't look promising for him.

JonO
11-08-2011, 09:39 AM
Yeah - the counterpoint to DeRo is the one Chevy is making... if he has been at 3 different clubs in one year, can he really be the MVP? I guess it depends on what you are looking for in an MVP...

Edit: oops - missed this entire third page when I posted, but regardless of the reasons - two trades in one season will affect the vote.

rocker
11-08-2011, 11:12 AM
Yeah - the counterpoint to DeRo is the one Chevy is making... if he has been at 3 different clubs in one year, can he really be the MVP? I guess it depends on what you are looking for in an MVP...

Edit: oops - missed this entire third page when I posted, but regardless of the reasons - two trades in one season will affect the vote.

Another way to look at it: if something is valuable, you hold on to it, right? Two teams in the same season decided not to hold on to De Ro, questioning just how valuable he is, particularly in the marketplace of Major League Soccer.

That's not to say he isn't one of the better players in the league, depending on circumstances. But "most valuable" is a pretty high test and two teams basically implied he wasn't the most valuable on their teams. That says a lot to me.

The raw stats on De Ro are strong, but if we only regarded stats in the equation, most defenders and keepers probably wouldn't win.

Pookie
11-08-2011, 11:29 AM
USA Today reports that:

"Houston Dynamo's Brad Davis, D.C. United's Dwayne De Rosario and FC Dallas' Brek Shea are the finalists for MLS MVP"

Considering Houston is in the Final and the history of the award, gotta give the inside edge to Davis.

Roogsy
11-08-2011, 11:31 AM
Yeah - the counterpoint to DeRo is the one Chevy is making... if he has been at 3 different clubs in one year, can he really be the MVP? I guess it depends on what you are looking for in an MVP...

Edit: oops - missed this entire third page when I posted, but regardless of the reasons - two trades in one season will affect the vote.


What matters is the impact he has on a team, whether it be all season or part of the season.

We have guys voting in the RPB members forum on the MVP for TFC. A chunk of those guys barely played 13 games for us and yet earned significant votes. So a player can earn MVP votes for playing 13 games but a player who plays 18 games probably shouldn't because he played for other teams? How so?

DeRo scored 13 goals in 18 games for DC United keeping them in the playoff hunt. The DC boards are lit up about how DeRo was the only thing worth watching about that team all year long and how awful the season would have been without him (kind of like my point about our DPs). That kind of talk should be expected of a potential MVP no? Does it matter that what sent him out of TFC was a contract dispute not his play? Or that TFC tanked right after they got rid of him? Does it matter that NY needed to stop leaking goals and DeRo was their only tradeable asset? And tanked right after getting rid of him?

People talk as if being traded is an automatic sign of loss of value. I don't know where that came from but I certainly don't agree with it, regardless if it's DeRo or not.

Pookie
11-08-2011, 11:37 AM
^ Let's be factual. "Significant votes" in the RPB Man of the Year amounts to half the votes that the winner received. Highlighting that the majority of folks believe that MVP is not a part time job.

DeRo will earn significant votes but whether he has enough to carry him over the top is the question.

Davis had a league leading 16 assists on a team that reached the Cup Final. Some might consider that total picture to have more value.

Roogsy
11-08-2011, 11:51 AM
^ Let's be factual. "Significant votes" in the RPB Man of the Year amounts to half the votes that the winner received. Highlighting that the majority of folks believe that MVP is not a part time job.

DeRo will earn significant votes but whether he has enough to carry him over the top is the question.

Davis had a league leading 16 assists on a team that reached the Cup Final. Some might consider that total picture to have more value.

I don't disagree. If Davis wins, I think it's deserved. But certainly not a judgement of DeRo's accomplishments. But I also think if DeRo wins, there is good reason for it. The fact that he is down to the last 3 choices says something on it's own doesn't it? There are 400+ other players in the league to choose from, including TFC players and yet this is the 3 that have earned the top votes regardless of who won the award. In essence, DeRo has already succeeded. It's only a matter of how much he succeeded.

Pookie
11-08-2011, 11:58 AM
Hey, 2 for 2 in near agreements lately.

This peace thing is working ;)

Roogsy
11-08-2011, 12:05 PM
By the way, 37% voted for any one of the players that didn't even play half the year for us. It's not half, but I do believe that would indicate there is also a large segment that don't place a lot of stock in the full year aspect of it. Assuming the the half that did vote for the winner truly believe that his play earned him the distinction and most probably did not consider his length of time with the team this year, I'd say there is a pretty good chance that most don't consider the "part time" aspect to be a major consideration. Not to say it isn't a consideration at all. I am sure it is.

Whoop
11-08-2011, 03:28 PM
Thierry Henry weighs in.

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/soccerblog/the_derosario_blunder_Wl42RVPXFvXpU38zeFs4AJ

Yohan
11-08-2011, 03:34 PM
Dear Thierry Henry,

Landon Donovan is the face of the league

Chevy
11-08-2011, 03:48 PM
Forgetting my personal opinions for a second, I believe that two trades will definitely work against him from a vote-getting perspective.

The GM's from Dallas, Houston, TFC and NYRB will almost certainly not vote for him - either they have one of their own in the race or traded DeRo away during the season. Logic here being you're not going to cast an MVP vote for a guy you discarded.

You could also make the case for players from those same four teams not voting for him, but that could go either way depending if they played with DeRo Jekyll or Dero Hyde. Admittedly this is weak speculation on my part.

Regardless of the stats or any other comparisons you may put out there, he's at a disadvantage having four clubs "against" him rather than only two for the other candidates.

Roogsy
11-08-2011, 04:01 PM
:lol:

TFC fans know better than Thierry fucking Henry.

Shakes McQueen
11-08-2011, 04:16 PM
Dear Thierry Henry,

Landon Donovan is the face of the league

He doesn't say DeRo is the face of the league. He says he should be.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
11-08-2011, 04:19 PM
:lol:

TFC fans know better than Thierry fucking Henry.

Being Thierry Henry doesn't give him any special clairvoyance into who the face of the league is. If anything, being a Johnny-Come-Lately to the league diminishes his "expertise" on the subject (if there is such a thing).

Though as I mentioned before, it's moot. He never asserted DeRo was the face of the league.

- Scott

ochos
11-08-2011, 04:25 PM
Thierry Henry weighs in.

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/soccerblog/the_derosario_blunder_Wl42RVPXFvXpU38zeFs4AJ

Great article - to me it points out the short-comings of the league, not necessarily any coaches or players. Let's hope the next CBA allows this league to flourish even more

Roogsy
11-08-2011, 04:39 PM
Being Thierry Henry doesn't give him any special clairvoyance into who the face of the league is. If anything, being a Johnny-Come-Lately to the league diminishes his "expertise" on the subject (if there is such a thing).

Though as I mentioned before, it's moot. He never asserted DeRo was the face of the league.

- Scott

Not talking about that, personally I do think Donovan can be considered the "face of the league". I think that has to do with his work on the national squad on top of MLS. If DeRo were American and playing on the national squad, I think he'd have a shot at it, but that's neither here nor there. I am talking about the recognition he gets everywhere but here. What's the expression? "A prophet hath no honour in his own country."

I've been defending DeRo for 6 months now. I should have just waited for him to show his abilities himself and let people stew in their own prejudice.

Cashcleaner
11-09-2011, 12:16 AM
Objectively, if you base your MVP vote purely on statistics, I think DeRo should get it. MVP voting is always pretty nebulous though - for an example, read some of the convoluted pap MLS writers have to say about how they decide who to vote for.


Oh for sure. Everyone has their own measuring stick to work with, and stats are not likely to be the only consideration - though I suspect for many it does have more weight.

Keegan
11-09-2011, 06:31 PM
No player in this league can single handedly be valuable enough to lift their team into the playoffs.. so it's unfair to place more weight on that than stats. I think DeRo deserves it this season.

ArmenJBX
11-09-2011, 07:02 PM
The very logic of De Rosario winning MVP is ridiculous.

Most Valuable Player. That means, he is, by far, the most valuable player. Thus, in his year, there is no player more valuable than him.

De Rosario was traded for Toni Tchani + Danleigh Borman + Draft Pick. That means that this combination is more valuable than De Rosario.

He was then traded for Dax McCarty. If someone is the most valuable player, then a man for man swap means Dax McCarty is more valuable than De Rosario is.

An MVP shouldn't be playing for three clubs in one season. Yes, he may have performed like a superstar but being traded twice reduces it's value tremendously.

Alonso
11-09-2011, 07:57 PM
Dear Thierry Henry,

Landon Donovan is the face of the league

I love the fact that Thierry is gushing about Dwayne and post match in Toronto about Stinson.

Two Canadian talents that are being praised by someone like Henry is a good thing imo.

Alonso
11-09-2011, 08:07 PM
Not talking about that, personally I do think Donovan can be considered the "face of the league". I think that has to do with his work on the national squad on top of MLS. If DeRo were American and playing on the national squad, I think he'd have a shot at it, but that's neither here nor there. I am talking about the recognition he gets everywhere but here. What's the expression? "A prophet hath no honour in his own country."

I've been defending DeRo for 6 months now. I should have just waited for him to show his abilities himself and let people stew in their own prejudice.


Dude, honestly, most people on this forum understand very well Dero's worth as a player.

Most people also understand that he is one of the greatest MLS players ever.

Your self victimization lies in the fact that most people are unwilling to give you any credence which has nothing to do with Dero.

Waggy
11-09-2011, 09:26 PM
Dude, honestly, most people on this forum understand very well Dero's worth as a player.

Most people also understand that he is one of the greatest MLS players ever.

Your self victimization lies in the fact that most people are unwilling to give you any credence which has nothing to do with Dero.

My working theory is that Roogs feels much like the rest of us on Dero, but for whatever reason can't come to grips with it. The arguments he makes aren't to try and convince anyone who disagrees with him to agree (his posts are always attacking other posters/incredibly defensive in tone, never understanding or acknowledging other peoples points or opinions, and constantly shifting the argument around, Not exactly what you do to change peoples opinions)

I assume Roogs isn't SO worried about defending Dero's honour that he'd have written literally hundreds of thousands of words on the topic, or repeated the same arguments ad nausium in dozens of different threads.

So if he isn't trying to convince us and he isn't just looking out for Dero's good name, then what the hells he doing? He has to be trying to convince himself somehow, anyhow, that he wasn't wrong about Dero and Deros worth to TFC. He just can't accept that most people here feel that Dero may be a great player but being a great player isn't the be all and end all of being a great pro athlete. Or understand that when someone says Dero isn't worth a DP's salary they aren't saying that he's a terrible player and a bum. That when people say TFC has been better post dero it's not about goal scoring per game, or our AM's strike rate or goals for/against but about the cohesiveness shown by the players on the field and the precense of strong leadership giving this club some character and direction. Even a bit of flair. That the long fractured TFC locker room, full of discontent, complaints, leaks etc hasn't had a single peep of bad press since Dero left town. That random players complaining subtly to writers about playing time, systems, salaries, rosters moves etc stopped about the same time. That Winter is the first coach TFC has had in 4 years who hasn't dealt with a faction of the clubhouse rising up against him very publicly.

If Dero is MVP, great, good for him. I can assure everyone had TFC not traded him he would not be MVP here, and anything beyond congradulating a local guy made good is basically just trolling. There was no possible outcome of the whole fiasco where Dero stayed in Toronto. From both sides POVs, Dero was done here. I've been trying to avoid responding to Roogsy's borderline taunting posts, and I've deleted a few responses like this one because I mean really, whats the point. But it's freaking annoying to have your opinions and comments mischaracterized so often. Especially by someone who goes appoplectic if someone even slightly misinterprets claims he made.

Roogsy
11-09-2011, 09:44 PM
Great, we're all psycho-analysts now. LOL!

None of this stuff sounds familiar though. I think you guys are complicating things too much. My problems with this team are much simpler and DeRo was simply the biggest symptom. By failing to acknowledge such a glaring symptom, I just feel fans are ignoring the underlying illness with this team.

I was trying to convince myself about DeRo? LOL. Hardly. In fact I think your psychoanalysis applies on the opposite side where people work incredibly hard to convince themselves that TFC is a better team without a golden boot winner/MVP candidate. Not for a moment did I ever doubt my position.

And Alonso, I think the statement that people here understand his "worth as a player" is simply lip service. Because if our goal is to build a winning team then that requires winning players. And as fans we did not support our own winning player, instead siding with an inept front office. Its that sycophantic behaviour towards the TFC FO that burns me because they don't deserve it and it only emboldens them to continue messing things up with this team. And we're the ones that wind up paying for it.

On most teams, trading away an All Star for a bag of balls would be cause for heads to roll. Not here, its applauded. And to me that says something.

That was, and continues to be my problem with TFC and it has not changed despite what you may say about "shifting arguments". My argumentation has never changed and my points may have been repeated but its only because despite repeatedly saying them, people continue making false claims to the contrary.

As for no bad press or complaints from players after DeRo left, boy is that revisionist history.

Canary10
11-09-2011, 10:06 PM
Roogsy, there's one point I think you're wrong on. The reality is, DeRo's a dick. HE himself turned half the fans against him all on his own. It's not that people side with the front office, it's that they had enough of him. And he authored that himself.

Roogsy
11-09-2011, 10:12 PM
You're entitled to your opinion about the man. And that is his problem. Personally I don't agree, especially since he's never showed anything but respect for the fans. His beef was with management. But given all that if you think he's a dick so be it.

I care about the Ws. And looking at the standings this year its hard to imagine how fans could be more concerned about his personality than his ability but then again I said months ago that this was the real reason for some fans supporting the FO and you've proven that right. When fans concern themselves with contract disputes and not with the product on the pitch things have gone wrong.

But it does explain why some fans are ok with these results.

ensco
11-09-2011, 10:33 PM
Both sides are right. Dero was and is terrific with the fans and the community. He was also clueless in his dealings with the team/league, and a shameless, self-centered whinger about this, when these dealings went against his interest.

All in all, it's par for the course for the 21st century athlete. I'd welcome him back anytime. He's a gamer.

JonO
11-09-2011, 10:37 PM
What matters is the impact he has on a team, whether it be all season or part of the season.

We have guys voting in the RPB members forum on the MVP for TFC. A chunk of those guys barely played 13 games for us and yet earned significant votes. So a player can earn MVP votes for playing 13 games but a player who plays 18 games probably shouldn't because he played for other teams? How so?

Yeah, but TFC was not a very good team this year. If you want to suggest he is MVP for DC, then I wouldn't have a problem either. But for league MVP, I think it has to be a consideration. He is a great player, no doubt - certainly one of the best in the league...

Roogsy
11-09-2011, 10:45 PM
Both sides are right. Dero was and is terrific with the fans and the community. He was also clueless in his dealings with the team/league, and a shameless, self-centered whinger about this, when these dealings went against his interest.


I agree, even about the the whinging.

And yes that is what athletes are nowadays. This romanticized idea about what the ideal athlete is nowadays is a fairy tale. Take our own DPs as an example, would that have come here for anything less than a 7 figure salary? But we don't begrudge them their good living. Nor should we.

Waggy
11-09-2011, 10:45 PM
Great, we're all psycho-analysts now. LOL!

None of this stuff sounds familiar though. I think you guys are complicating things too much. My problems with this team are much simpler and DeRo was simply the biggest symptom. By failing to acknowledge such a glaring symptom, I just feel fans are ignoring the underlying illness with this team.

I was trying to convince myself about DeRo? LOL. Hardly. In fact I think your psychoanalysis applies on the opposite side where people work incredibly hard to convince themselves that TFC is a better team without a golden boot winner/MVP candidate. Not for a moment did I ever doubt my position.

And Alonso, I think the statement that people here understand his "worth as a player" is simply lip service. Because if our goal is to build a winning team then that requires winning players. And as fans we did not support our own winning player, instead siding with an inept front office. Its that sycophantic behaviour towards the TFC FO that burns me because they don't deserve it and it only emboldens them to continue messing things up with this team. And we're the ones that wind up paying for it.

On most teams, trading away an All Star for a bag of balls would be cause for heads to roll. Not here, its applauded. And to me that says something.

That was, and continues to be my problem with TFC and it has not changed despite what you may say about "shifting arguments". My argumentation has never changed and my points may have been repeated but its only because despite repeatedly saying them, people continue making false claims to the contrary.

As for no bad press or complaints from players after DeRo left, boy is that revisionist history.


Lol, psychoanalysis is what we do around here! I'll ignore the other stuff, but outside of the pre-existing Cann/Attakora issues, what other locker room stuff popped up during this year? If I missed or forgot about something I'm all ears, I just for the life of me don't remember hearing anything beyond those 3 players.

And if you don't doubt your position, why do you continue to push it at every opportunity? There isn't a single poster or lurker reading this who doesn't know where you stand on Dero, what's the point in having the same argument so many times? Like what is all the time and energy trying to accomplish? What could possibly be worth constantly digging at this old wound and rehashing such a polarizing issue? Like I said, you have to realize you aren't convincing anyone, and you definitely have to realize that there's no new information or arguments coming now that weren't hashed out over the pages and pages and pages of other threads.*

Lastly, and I'm aware this is rehashing an argument I made ad nausium in feb and march- remember that the main reason TFC has NO leverage to trade Dero was that Dero himself sabataged any leverage the club would have by publicly stating that he was done with TFC. The fact that TFC was able to get anything for a player when the entire league knew they had a gun to their heads and would HAVE to take ANY offer isn't something to sneeze at. Did they get his total value back? No. Did they get more value back then their position at the time warranted? Hell ya. Did New York do a lot better despite not having the same lack of leverage TFC had? Not at all.


*I don't mean this to sound insulting or attacking, I'm just really curious at this point how the fire is still burning so hot, 8 months later.

Canary10
11-09-2011, 10:47 PM
He has a lot of baggage that some think we're better off not to have on the team regardless of how good he is. Even in my own family half hate his guts, half love him. He tends to produce both reactions, for better or worse.

Roogsy
11-09-2011, 10:52 PM
Then he should be an RPB!

"Hated, adored, never ignored!"

And Waggy, that is the version of the DeRo trade the team would like you to believe.

Alonso
11-09-2011, 11:04 PM
Then he should be an RPB!

"Hated, adored, never ignored!"

And Waggy, that is the version of the DeRo trade the team would like you to believe.

Dude, honestly, most people on this forum understand very well Dero's worth as a player.

Most people also understand that he is one of the greatest MLS players ever.

Your self victimization lies in the fact that most people are unwilling to give you any credence which has nothing to do with Dero.

Roogsy
11-09-2011, 11:10 PM
Is there an echo in here? LOL! You just repeated what you wrote earlier. Stop taking a page out of Roogsy's book of "how to post on a soccer discussion board".

Alonso
11-09-2011, 11:14 PM
:D
Is there an echo in here? LOL! You just repeated what you wrote earlier. Stop taking a page out of Roogsy's book of "how to post on a soccer discussion board".

:D

Haha. LOL!

Waggy
11-10-2011, 12:36 AM
Then he should be an RPB!

"Hated, adored, never ignored!"

And Waggy, that is the version of the DeRo trade the team would like you to believe.

“Probably a week before our first game, maybe a week and a couple days before, is actually when I got my first actual offer on paper and after going back and forth, especially my agent with the club, it was an offer that more suited Toronto definitely than myself,” De Rosario said.

“Every option that I brought forth was turned down so I said, ‘Enough’s enough.’ I didn’t want to be a negative influence and I didn’t want to be a bad guy in the locker room. I played with 100% but I just couldn’t carry that weight on my shoulders and in my mind, mentally, I just needed to get some clarity. It had to come down to one of us making a decision.”

“I couldn’t play unhappy and I couldn’t play under a situation where I felt … I wasn’t being treated rightly,” De Rosario said during a conference call with reporters on Tuesday. “I had to make a tough choice and move forward, but I’m happy to be here in New York.

“My move to come here wasn’t an easy decision, obviously being in my hometown and the great support we have in Toronto, but it was a [situation] that had to be resolved and it was going on over a course of some period of time and for me I needed to get peace of mind.”

“I want to focus on my football and my football only, but at the same time my future … to play in my option year if anything happens to me in terms of injury or anything like that, [then] nothing is guaranteed,” De Rosario said.

When pressed by reporters about whether he will play without a new contract, he offered: “No, there’s too much risk in that.”

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/04/05/sp-mls-derosario.html
(De Rosario says contract offer was last straw)

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/04/05/de-rosario-i-wasnt-being-treated-rightly/
(De Rosario: I wasn't being treated rightly)

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/01/26/tfcs-de-rosario-may-sit-out-if-contract-talks-stall/
(De Rosario may sit out if contract talks stall)

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/03/16/tfcs-de-rosario-backs-off-boycott-threat/
(De Rosario backs off boycott threat)

Now where would I have gotten the idea that he wasn't going to be playing for TFC one way or the other? Those tricky MLSE bastards sure are good at putting words in his mouth. Or they were able to buy all the soccer press and have CBC and the Post and the star act as their mouthpieces, despite the fact those same outlets RAKE them on the Leafs and Raptors, often going too far to the contrarian side. Look like I said already, it's he said she said. Arguing about hearsay is a waste of time in the best of cases, arguing about hearsay for 8 months is ridiculous and borderline obsessive. That chapter of TFC's history is just that, history. I've been avoiding posting in these Dero things as much as I can (it's tough restraining sometimes), but enough is enough. We finally have something to look forward to with this team and we're still stuck looking backwards. My congrats to Dero for being in the final 3, all the best to him in trying to get an MLS mvp and a DP contract. Hopefully this thread next year is about Frings and or Koevs.

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 12:50 AM
“Probably a week before our first game, maybe a week and a couple days before, is actually when I got my first actual offer on paper and after going back and forth, especially my agent with the club, it was an offer that more suited Toronto definitely than myself,” De Rosario said.

“Every option that I brought forth was turned down so I said, ‘Enough’s enough.’ I didn’t want to be a negative influence and I didn’t want to be a bad guy in the locker room. I played with 100% but I just couldn’t carry that weight on my shoulders and in my mind, mentally, I just needed to get some clarity. It had to come down to one of us making a decision.”

“I couldn’t play unhappy and I couldn’t play under a situation where I felt … I wasn’t being treated rightly,” De Rosario said during a conference call with reporters on Tuesday. “I had to make a tough choice and move forward, but I’m happy to be here in New York.

“My move to come here wasn’t an easy decision, obviously being in my hometown and the great support we have in Toronto, but it was a [situation] that had to be resolved and it was going on over a course of some period of time and for me I needed to get peace of mind.”

“I want to focus on my football and my football only, but at the same time my future … to play in my option year if anything happens to me in terms of injury or anything like that, [then] nothing is guaranteed,” De Rosario said.

When pressed by reporters about whether he will play without a new contract, he offered: “No, there’s too much risk in that.”

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/04/05/sp-mls-derosario.html
(De Rosario says contract offer was last straw)

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/04/05/de-rosario-i-wasnt-being-treated-rightly/
(De Rosario: I wasn't being treated rightly)

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/01/26/tfcs-de-rosario-may-sit-out-if-contract-talks-stall/
(De Rosario may sit out if contract talks stall)

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/03/16/tfcs-de-rosario-backs-off-boycott-threat/
(De Rosario backs off boycott threat)

Now where would I have gotten the idea that he wasn't going to be playing for TFC one way or the other? Those tricky MLSE bastards sure are good at putting words in his mouth. Or they were able to buy all the soccer press and have CBC and the Post and the star act as their mouthpieces, despite the fact those same outlets RAKE them on the Leafs and Raptors, often going too far to the contrarian side. Look like I said already, it's he said she said. Arguing about hearsay is a waste of time in the best of cases, arguing about hearsay for 8 months is ridiculous and borderline obsessive. That chapter of TFC's history is just that, history. I've been avoiding posting in these Dero things as much as I can (it's tough restraining sometimes), but enough is enough. We finally have something to look forward to with this team and we're still stuck looking backwards. My congrats to Dero for being in the final 3, all the best to him in trying to get an MLS mvp and a DP contract. Hopefully this thread next year is about Frings and or Koevs.

Actually you've moved the goalposts with this post. But it's late and I am watching Sofia Vergara on Modern Family :eek: so I will leave posting another novel for another time. Suffice to say your point was that TFC had no leverage to trade DeRo when in fact they did, they simply played their cards wrong and got burned. None of what you posted here addresses that they misplayed the DeRo contract issue and because of that got a set of steak knives in return. When I make a bad trade for a client, I hear about it. When a contractor screws up on a job, the client gives it to him. With us, the first thing these guys did was muff up the situation with our all-time leading scorer and barely a peep from the supporters. Mindblowing.

He then goes on to show that TFC made a mistake in trading him and we STILL refuse to admit it. So be it. I will be the douchebag that keeps pointing it out.

As for posting about DeRo, I hate to tell you this but as one of the finalists for the MVP award and probably having a 50/50 chance with Davis for the award and being a former TFC player and being from Toronto, this thread was likely going to be dealing not only on the DeRo issue but also on the what-ifs and whether TFC got burned on the trade. It would seem most in the league seem to think so except for TFC fans themselves who still stubbornly applaud the trade.

In most cities, when management screws up with their star player to this degree, fans would be upset. But not here. And that is my only point about DeRo in this MVP thread.

Cashcleaner
11-10-2011, 04:24 AM
Actually you've moved the goalposts with this post. But it's late and I am watching Sofia Vergara on Modern Family :eek: so I will leave posting another novel for another time. Suffice to say your point was that TFC had no leverage to trade DeRo when in fact they did, they simply played their cards wrong and got burned. None of what you posted here addresses that they misplayed the DeRo contract issue and because of that got a set of steak knives in return. When I make a bad trade for a client, I hear about it. When a contractor screws up on a job, the client gives it to him. With us, the first thing these guys did was muff up the situation with our all-time leading scorer and barely a peep from the supporters. Mindblowing.

He then goes on to show that TFC made a mistake in trading him and we STILL refuse to admit it. So be it. I will be the douchebag that keeps pointing it out.

As for posting about DeRo, I hate to tell you this but as one of the finalists for the MVP award and probably having a 50/50 chance with Davis for the award and being a former TFC player and being from Toronto, this thread was likely going to be dealing not only on the DeRo issue but also on the what-ifs and whether TFC got burned on the trade. It would seem most in the league seem to think so except for TFC fans themselves who still stubbornly applaud the trade.

In most cities, when management screws up with their star player to this degree, fans would be upset. But not here. And that is my only point about DeRo in this MVP thread.

Personally, I totally get how people are just plain fed-up talking about him and the trade. It's cool and I completely understand it, because it does get brought up quite a lot. Some have turned their backs on the issue and wish the others would as well and I can see how they are frustrated that it hasn't been put to bed.

Myself, I don't think I'll ever be over it completely not just because I look at it as one of the biggest mistakes the club has made, but rather that no-one at the club who allowed it to happen has even acknowledged it.

More than anything though, is the belief that people still hold onto that DeRo was only looking out for himself, or wasn't putting in his best effort, or my favourite - "was a cancer in the change room". People still level these accusations despite all the overwhelming evidence and testimony to the contrary and simply expect the rest of us to nod their heads and agree.

That's what I have the biggest problem with - the fact that the opinions of fellow TFC players (such as Chad Barrett) and staff who came out to his defence mean nothing to them, but the word from the club's brass is apparently an indisputable higher truth.

Pookie
11-10-2011, 07:44 AM
^ cash, no evidence of locker room issues?

So are you contending a "Canadian sense of entitlement" and "Canada-US factions" within the room didn't exist?

Unless they were referring to that bastard Greg Sutton ;) , we should be able to connect the dots.

The fact that these issues do not appear to exist under Winter and all but virtually disappeared when a cheque writing, hold out threatening player left town, lends credence to the belief that Mr De Rosario was a part of previous malcontent within the room.

As for trade value, a player with a max cap salary, does the cheque writing thing, makes his demands for a new contract public, gets involved in offseason controversy, threatens to hold out for the season then demands to be traded.

Oh yeah, that is dealing from a position of strength all right. I'm surprised teams weren't lining up to throw 5 first rounders at us in a package with young superstars. Where's that facepalm thingy.

Waggy et al, well reasoned points.

Oldtimer
11-10-2011, 08:56 AM
I agree with Roogsy that DeRo's contract was mishandled by the club, and that TFC deserves criticism for it.

Of the current staff, I hold Earl Cochrane most responsible for this mishandled issue, from the time with Celtic through to the late days of negotiation. Winter deserves a small portion of the blame, but really he was brought in at the tail end of the situation and was not familiar with the situation and all that went on before.

Paul James sometimes cryptically talks about problem people who MoJo brought into the from office that should have been cleared out when he was fired. I believe that Earl Cochrane is one of those people. Probably he was kept on mostly for continuity.

Obviously, the poisoned relationship with the club that happened under Mo probably made DeRo unwilling to compromise, and who could blame him?

Canary10
11-10-2011, 10:30 AM
I did a little looking into DeRo's time in DC. Here's what I found, with no interpretation. I'll leave it up to you guys to decide what, if anything, it means.

· 18 games played
· Record of 5 W, 6 D, 7 L (he missed one game against Vancouver which was a loss)
· 13 goals scored
· 8 goals scored against non playoff teams
· 5 against playoff teams
· Didn't score in 11 games (61% of games)
· 8 of 13 goals (62%) came in 3 games, 5 of those goals were against non-playoff teams (3 TFC, 3 RSL, 2 San Jose)
· Scored in 3 games where DC United won (out of 5 DC wins since he arrived)
· Longest run of no goals was 5 games

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 10:31 AM
I did a little looking into DeRo's time in DC. Here's what I found, with no interpretation. I'll leave it up to you guys to decide what, if anything, it means.

· 18 games played
· Record of 5 W, 6 D, 7 L (he missed one game against Vancouver which was a loss)
· 13 goals scored
· 8 goals scored against non playoff teams
· 5 against playoff teams
· Didn't score in 11 games (61% of games)
· 8 of 13 goals (62%) came in 3 games, 5 of those goals were against non-playoff teams (3 TFC, 3 RSL, 2 San Jose)
· Scored in 3 games where DC United won (out of 5 DC wins since he arrived)
· Longest run of no goals was 5 games

Did you account for the game he missed against Vancouver due to national commitments?

Canary10
11-10-2011, 10:36 AM
Yeah. They actually had 19 games in the time he was there. They lost that one game.

Canary10
11-10-2011, 10:38 AM
I didn't look at assists obviously....

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 10:40 AM
Yeah. They actually had 19 games in the time he was there. They lost that one game.

Ah yes, I failed to account for his debut game against Philly.

And he had 7 asissts in those 18 games as well.

Keegan
11-10-2011, 11:21 AM
Bottom line is DeRo left because he felt he deserved a DP contract, TFC didn't.. he left, proved ONCE AGAIN he deserves a DP contract and now DC is going to give it to him.. simple.

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 11:33 AM
I guess fans can determine (as is their right) whether they agree with TFC not giving him a DP contract (if DC gives it to him), but certainly the arguments used in denying him those rewards keep getting knocked down.

Chevy
11-10-2011, 12:26 PM
Well Keegan it's not THAT simple. Some DP's make $600k and others $6M so there is a huge grey area there.

From what we have all seen and heard, "DP" to Dero is not a simple designation. It means $1 million+ a year and probably for more than just one year. He stated it himself during the "Mista-JDG-make-more-than-me" b**tch session which preceeded the cheque signing incident, that preceeded his Scotland adventure, which preceeded his hi-jack of media day that preceeded his exit from the club. (Coincidently the club no longer has such drama, but that's a topic for another day).

That million dollar contract just ain't gonna happen in MLS or any other league (I have been waiting six months for all those supposed big $$ euro offers to be confirmed...crickets...). It will unfortunately be a rude awakening to him and his 'team', as he is a fine player. Time will tell, but I see DeRo's Cheque Signing Tour making a stop in a MLS city near you.

Canary10
11-10-2011, 12:29 PM
Curious to know what his relationship with Winter was. On the one hand, from my knowledge of Winter's career, he's not a big fan of anyone who puts themselves above the team. On the other, a 4-3-3 would have suited DeRo really well I think. He essentially plays as that outside right winger on a 4-4-2 anyway, and would have been freed up to do that more in Winter's system. Plata-Koevermans-DeRO would have been a scary sight for defences (if that was even possible due to salary cap, etc).

At the end of the day, I agree with those who say let's get on with it and start looking forward, not backward.

habstfc
11-10-2011, 02:02 PM
I did a little looking into DeRo's time in DC. Here's what I found, with no interpretation. I'll leave it up to you guys to decide what, if anything, it means.

· 8 of 13 goals (62%) came in 3 games,


I think ultimately that is the one stat that will be why he won't win. Scoring all those goals isn't the best way to get points out of games.

I wonder what his points per GOAL stat is?

Example he had 3 goals against tfc but only got a tie out of that hat trick. D.C.'s points per dero goal would be .333

I don't have time to look it up right now.

I hope he wins the mvp, being a canadian. I don't think he will though.

T-boy
11-10-2011, 03:08 PM
I guess fans can determine (as is their right) whether they agree with TFC not giving him a DP contract (if DC gives it to him), but certainly the arguments used in denying him those rewards keep getting knocked down.

DeRo obviously deserved a DP salary at TFC - he was our best player by a big distance when he was here - he was the face of the team, the most marketable asset, and captain. He obviously DID deserve to be paid higher than any of the other players.

I think the argument that some people make that "he signed the contract, so he knew what had signed and he should have stuck to that", is kind of silly.

Put it this way....you start working for a new company as their star salesman, and they offer you a contract of $300,000 a year. You sign, thinking that's a good deal as you are the highest paid employee and its a lot of money! Then a couple of months later, and while you are an amazing employee and everybody loves you, the company employ a cleaning lady and they pay her $1,700,000 to clean the trash and mop floors. It then turns out that the cleaning lady isn't very good at her job, and leaves trash every day, and she isn't popular at all. I'm sure, to start with, you think "ok, I'll give this company the benefit of the doubt on giving the cleaning lady so much money, cos maybe she's the BEST cleaner in the country and needs time to settle in". But as you go on, you realise that they are just going to keep paying the lady this massive amount of money, and forget about you, the star employee who is making more money for the company than anybody else, while the cleaning lady doesn't improve at all at her job.

Putting it that way, I'm sure we would ALL agree that the company made a massive error and should obviously pay you more money. Who on this forum would just sit back and let this cleaning lady keep earning mega money, while you are the best employee, and everybody agrees, and you are still earning the same money? I, for one, would NOT sit back and just keep working. I would find it interesting if anybody could actually justify keeping working for $300,000 while the cleaning lady earns over a million. Really, can you justify that?!

To that end, MLSE and the TFC management messed up big time with DeRo. He obviously deserved more money, and I completely agree with his public display of his disapproval to the situation.

Canary10
11-10-2011, 03:13 PM
I wouldn't have paid the cleaning lady so much money.

Brooker
11-10-2011, 03:51 PM
Yes... how could we possibly blame somebody for signing a contract?

I suppose if DeRo turned out to be shit, MLSE could have come to him and worked out some sort of pay cut.. possibly cut in half?

No.

ManUtd4ever
11-10-2011, 04:03 PM
DeRo obviously deserved a DP salary at TFC - he was our best player by a big distance when he was here - he was the face of the team, the most marketable asset, and captain. He obviously DID deserve to be paid higher than any of the other players.

I think the argument that some people make that "he signed the contract, so he knew what had signed and he should have stuck to that", is kind of silly.

Put it this way....you start working for a new company as their star salesman, and they offer you a contract of $300,000 a year. You sign, thinking that's a good deal as you are the highest paid employee and its a lot of money! Then a couple of months later, and while you are an amazing employee and everybody loves you, the company employ a cleaning lady and they pay her $1,700,000 to clean the trash and mop floors. It then turns out that the cleaning lady isn't very good at her job, and leaves trash every day, and she isn't popular at all. I'm sure, to start with, you think "ok, I'll give this company the benefit of the doubt on giving the cleaning lady so much money, cos maybe she's the BEST cleaner in the country and needs time to settle in". But as you go on, you realise that they are just going to keep paying the lady this massive amount of money, and forget about you, the star employee who is making more money for the company than anybody else, while the cleaning lady doesn't improve at all at her job.

Putting it that way, I'm sure we would ALL agree that the company made a massive error and should obviously pay you more money. Who on this forum would just sit back and let this cleaning lady keep earning mega money, while you are the best employee, and everybody agrees, and you are still earning the same money? I, for one, would NOT sit back and just keep working. I would find it interesting if anybody could actually justify keeping working for $300,000 while the cleaning lady earns over a million. Really, can you justify that?!

To that end, MLSE and the TFC management messed up big time with DeRo. He obviously deserved more money, and I completely agree with his public display of his disapproval to the situation.

I will never understand this point of view.

Yes, DeRo has played well enough in the last 3 years to theoretically earn a DP level salary. I think everyone can acknowledge that much.

However, he signed a legally binding contract at his own discretion. Merit has absolutely no bearing on a professional athlete's salary after he has committed to a multi year contract.

In professional sports, players can cash in based on their performance once they are free agents, or renegotiating a contract extension in the final year of an existing contract.

Professional athletes have no legal right to demand to renegotiate their contracts mid term. End of Story.

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 04:08 PM
DeRo had 2 years guaranteed, and 2 years option. Where do option years fit into this point of view?

And what about the multitude of professional athletes that get renegotiated contracts all the time? Including DeRo who is now going into the final option year of the contract and TFC, NY and DC all decided that they would offer new ones (even thought the TFC offer wasn't satisfactory)? Does your statement mean TFC (and the other teams) were wrong to renegotiate his contract?

It seems like a convenient belief to have when it suits your point, and yet when the evidence that such adherence to the length of contracts does not actually exist in the sports world, it is ignored?

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 04:10 PM
Yes... how could we possibly blame somebody for signing a contract?

I suppose if DeRo turned out to be shit, MLSE could have come to him and worked out some sort of pay cut.. possibly cut in half?

No.

Considering the MLS CBA has many "outs" for teams with burdensome contracts so they can squirm their way out, it would seem that the advantage is completely in favour of team owners and not the players. Why do they have the ability to get out of contracts and not players?

Chevy
11-10-2011, 04:14 PM
This summer article from Morgan Campbell speaks to the trade from NYRB and sums up this issue perfectly. All evidence points to a selfish individual who has historically over-valued his on-field contributions and seems oblivious to the value-killing behaviour off it.

It's no wonder he can't find a club to pay him what he thinks he's worth.


------------------------------

.......Still, with De Rosario you have to wonder how much Monday’s deal had to do with his eternal search for a fatter contract.

Before the 2009 season, De Rosario inked a four-year deal with TFC; but by late last season, he was unhappy with the contract’s terms and unafraid to show it, even celebrating one of his 15 goals by pantomiming a cheque-writing gesture.

As he had at the end of his tenure with the Houston Dynamo, De Rosario had hoped to be named the team’s designated player and to receive the seven-figure salary that usually comes with that label. When TFC decided to stick with the contract he had already signed, De Rosario pushed for a trade.

“I couldn’t play unhappy,” he told reporters shortly after his April trade to New York. “You would expect (TFC) to keep their hometown boy as comfortable as possible. I didn’t sense that.”

But if TFC wouldn’t make De Rosario — a Toronto product and lone bright spot on a woeful team — a designated player, which MLS team would?

It was never going to be New York, where De Rosario’s $493,750 salary was $50,000 more than he made last season with TFC. The Red Bulls are already paying Henry and Marquez a combined $10.2 million.

Will it be D.C. United?

It’s possible. D.C. has only one designated player, and Branko Boskovic’s salary ($525,367) isn’t much more than what De Rosario makes now.

But to become the million-dollar DP he has always wanted to be, De Rosario will have to persuade D.C. and the league to re-sign him at more than twice his current price, even though at 33 he’ll never be twice the player he is now.

It’s a tough deal for a team to swallow — just ask TFC.

Or DeRosario.

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 04:16 PM
So few people here understand the concept of "relative value".

rocker
11-10-2011, 04:36 PM
Why do they have the ability to get out of contracts and not players?

because the players didn't fight hard enough in the CBA negotiations for that right. Let's not get into some philosophical argument about what's right and wrong. Players negotiate as a collective with the owners, and power plays a major part in this. That's why every sports league in NA has different rules relating to these things.

The players collectively bargained with the owners, and this is the environment in which they must operate. No sense complaining about it now. They could have, after all, done what the NBA players are doing right now... or the baseball players before them... or the NHL players before them.

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 04:40 PM
because the players didn't fight hard enough in the CBA negotiations for that right.

They fought as hard as they could. Players were going on strike. Getting the 2010 season to start required the efforts of a mediator and in the end got some protection for their contracts that they didn't have before, but not the complete protection they wanted. Fundamentally, the owners still have the advantage and you're basically saying that it's ok because they were able to strong-arm the union into a new CBA? So then why shouldn't a player do the same and strong-arm ownership into a contract so long as they do so legally? Only owners are allowed to use pressure tactics?

The point is DeRo never violated his contract. While he was here and put on a red shirt, he played his guts out. Having fans complain about his contract situation is hypocritical. It's never a good idea to leave it in the hands of your employer to dictate your raise, if he even gives you one. In every industry, employees use any tactic they can to get a better deal out of their employer but here we side with the rich owner who showed no ability whatsoever to award contracts properly and basically tell the player "too bad!"?

I highly doubt anyone would follow this same standard if it were applied to them. It's always easy to tell someone ELSE what they should do.

ag futbol
11-10-2011, 04:40 PM
This "contract is a contract" stuff continues to be brought about in a dogmatic way that ignores the complexity of reality. Any contract has within it flexibility and loopholes. It also has things that don't get written down but are implied; maybe because it saves the document from being a thousand pages or maybe because it breaks the spirit of the rules both parties are both subject to but are not interested in abiding by. etc... etc.. etc... so let's all stop clinging to this falsehood.

For TFC, it sounds like they were in a salary cluster fuck and had to back-load some deals but couldn't do it within the MLS salary structure. So they go to the players and tell them to take less money up front and they'll come through with their end later. TFC reneges on their promise and players get angry.

Legally, it sounds like TFC can probably stick to its guns.

Ethically, it doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Hope they keep this in mind in the future, because doing business in such a way will catch up to you. Clubs who successfully come through on such agreements will enjoy added bargaining flexibility which TFC will not.

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 04:44 PM
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2011/11/10/henry-lauds-dero-red-bulls-seek-new-no-10

I think this is the same interview as the Post article, but with more detail.

Sounds to me like Henry wouldn't mind having DeRo back in NY.

T-boy
11-10-2011, 04:48 PM
I will never understand this point of view.

Yes, DeRo has played well enough in the last 3 years to theoretically earn a DP level salary. I think everyone can acknowledge that much.

However, he signed a legally binding contract at his own discretion. Merit has absolutely no bearing on a professional athlete's salary after he has committed to a multi year contract.

In professional sports, players can cash in based on their performance once they are free agents, or renegotiating a contract extension in the final year of an existing contract.

Professional athletes have no legal right to demand to renegotiate their contracts mid term. End of Story.

So, you are saying that you would be PERFECTLY happy that the cleaning lady was earning MUCH more money than you?! Really...can you say that?! Are you also saying that you would just keep quiet, and not say anything to your employer knowing that a person who is valued much less than you in the company, is being paid much much more than you?

It's unfortunate that NONE of us are EVER in this situation. Why? Because all OUR salaries are not in the public domain for every person to know. Do YOU know how much the person say next to you in your office is earning? Maybe? Do you know how much your office cleaner gets paid? Probably not! Say the Toronto Star put it on the front page that the cleaner is getting thousands of dollars more than you per year for their job, although you bring in thousands of dollars more to your company than the cleaner does. What would you do? Would you just sit there, not complain? I very much doubt that!

If I was in that situation I would renegotiate my pay with my company (DeRo did this). Secondly, if that wasn't succesful, I would stop trying at my job as I know I wasn't being valued. We ALL need to give credit to Dero here, as he NEVER did this. I think this is really overlooked by some TFC fans - while De Guzman was earning mega money and doing nothing on the footbal field, DeRo kept playing well, kept scoring goals, and kept TRYING, even though he KNEW, and he knew the WORLD knew, that De Guzman was earning much much more than him! I wouldn't have blamed DeRo for giving up, not putting in any effort, even trying NOT to score goals! But you know what.....DeRo was trying and scoring all the way up to his "cheque signing"....he was 'celebrating' one of these goals in the process, in fact!

So, to all those tho think DeRo should have just kept on playing because "he signed his contract, he should be happy about that"....just imagine what you would do in his situation....or if you found out that somebody in your office, doing a much lesser job than you, was earning MUCH more money.

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 04:51 PM
I don't see Henry lauding TFC's "cleaning lady". :D

Canary10
11-10-2011, 04:52 PM
What TFC paid JDG is one of their major gaffes that led to the DeRo situation in the first place. I totally agree with that. They should never have paid him $2 million.

__wowza
11-10-2011, 04:58 PM
http://www.necro-equine-sadism.com/beating-a-dead-horse.jpg

i understand that this is a message board and a place for discussion, but come on.. we've been over this.

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 05:04 PM
If you put a picture of Ibby's face on that horse, I will reward you with my absention from this thread. :lol:

T-boy
11-10-2011, 05:16 PM
If you put a picture of Ibby's face on that horse, I will reward you with my absention from this thread. :lol:

Or a picture of De Guzman in a cleaning lady outfit, complete with feather duster....

No, not into that?! :o

:D

__wowza
11-10-2011, 05:32 PM
If you put a picture of Ibby's face on that horse, I will reward you with my absention from this thread. :lol:

i'll do ya one better..

http://i.imm.io/bqHW.jpeg

keep doing what yer doing buddy, i may not agree with you all the time but you do make some good arguments.

Roogsy
11-10-2011, 05:35 PM
:smilielol5:

Hahahahaha....totally worth it.

habstfc
11-10-2011, 06:10 PM
I don't see Henry lauding TFC's "cleaning lady". :D

That "cleaning lady" as some have put it had a pretty good resume playing in the second best league on the planet, that's something De Ro can't put on his resume. How did this mvp thread turn in to the dero debate for the 100th time? We all know what happened there is nothing new being discussed.

T-boy
11-10-2011, 06:39 PM
Roogsy, there's one point I think you're wrong on. The reality is, DeRo's a dick. HE himself turned half the fans against him all on his own. It's not that people side with the front office, it's that they had enough of him. And he authored that himself.

I believe this is where the thread turned into a DeRo thread! :rolleyes:

Canary10
11-10-2011, 11:08 PM
I believe this is where the thread turned into a DeRo thread! :rolleyes:

It was a DeRo thread well before that. I'm happy to never talk about him again though.

Pookie
11-10-2011, 11:22 PM
Interesting thought.

Toronto has seen many popular players put up good numbers here and go on to be traded.

Darryl Sittler, Lanny MacDonald, Wendel Clark, Roy Halladay, to name just a few. In leaving, none of them ever divided a fan base. They were missed, cheered on their return and are still a memorable if not active part of the local sports culture.

Others certainly left with drama. Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, to name a few more. While some felt that their production was enough to justify overlooking the attitude, the majority of fans were happy to see the door hit them on the way out.

The first group are stallions. Leaders, fan favorites who are missed because of their character.

The second are the horse's ass, not because of their talent but because of the drama and me first attitude that is loathed by a good percentage of the population.

I wonder which group DeRo fits in?

Maybe all this drama is a function of cognitive dissonance. Someone trying to overcome the fact that in hitching their wagon to a soccer hero they picked a horse's ass.

ag futbol
11-10-2011, 11:54 PM
Alright, I can’t talk about the hockey guys but for basketball I can’t resist the urge to go into specifics…

Carter is a story of one man who gets wronged, but rather than making the most of the situation mind-fucks himself and scorches the earth. Obviously everything started out well, Toronto loved VC and vice versa. Eventually though, Carter started hitting the wall with injuries and the raptors made bad signings. That’s when all the distrust started happening. People started wondering if Carter was soft and Carter started wondering if the Raptors were ever going to come through on some of the things they said they were going to. At one point Richard Peddie personally talked to Carter about signing Steve Nash in the free agent window. When the window opened, the raptors did not bid for Nash or even contact his agent. This left Carter fuming. Down the road, the raps got thrifty in the free agent market and went from a deep luxury tax team to a regular spender while they waited to burn off some bad contracts. Carter started to piss and moan, eventually went on a spiral that saw him accused of everything from not trying to yelling out the set plays the raps were going to run to the opposing teams bench. Bottom line is really that Carter was an asset to the raptors, but they should have realized that a grown man who is flanked by his mother at all times is mentally fragile. They would have been better off doing the kid-gloves treatment or unloading him at full value before that turd burned up in the oven and we got shit players / picks in return.

For T-Mac, I mean that one pretty much was what it was. It was a little bit bizarre watching him tour from city-to-city on his LeBron James style publicity tour but overall I think raps fans dug into this guy as a target. Fact is management was never going to be in the same level with other teams who were falling all over themselves to pay old lazy-eye as much as possible. He capitalized as a free agent and I don’t particularly blame him for it.

The side note is people seem to seek out the opportunity to be offended by their quotes, particularly when it comes to cultural differences between the US and Canada. As someone who has lived in both countries, I can tell you that despite being similar, there are differences. Shit is different, it’s not good or bad … just a little bit of a different flavor. So while I think it’s funny to hear people complain about the lack of ESPN, soul food, and the metric system … I have some sympathy for it.

I'll make one point though, and that's the comment about "leaders". Not every player has to be a leader to be effective. There are countless strikers out there who have a screw loose but they are part of successful teams because they can do a job. We should never lose sight of that.

I think back to year one where we had a "team of character". Probably the best collection of guys on any team in the league and stand-up individuals. The issue is: most of them we're badly embarrassed on a weekly basis trying to keep up with their opposite numbers. Games aren't won with smiles and handshakes unfortunately.

Waggy
11-11-2011, 12:49 AM
Alright, I can’t talk about the hockey guys but for basketball I can’t resist the urge to go into specifics…

Carter is a story of one man who gets wronged, but rather than making the most of the situation mind-fucks himself and scorches the earth. Obviously everything started out well, Toronto loved VC and vice versa. Eventually though, Carter started hitting the wall with injuries and the raptors made bad signings. That’s when all the distrust started happening. People started wondering if Carter was soft and Carter started wondering if the Raptors were ever going to come through on some of the things they said they were going to. At one point Richard Peddie personally talked to Carter about signing Steve Nash in the free agent window. When the window opened, the raptors did not bid for Nash or even contact his agent. This left Carter fuming. Down the road, the raps got thrifty in the free agent market and went from a deep luxury tax team to a regular spender while they waited to burn off some bad contracts. Carter started to piss and moan, eventually went on a spiral that saw him accused of everything from not trying to yelling out the set plays the raps were going to run to the opposing teams bench. Bottom line is really that Carter was an asset to the raptors, but they should have realized that a grown man who is flanked by his mother at all times is mentally fragile. They would have been better off doing the kid-gloves treatment or unloading him at full value before that turd burned up in the oven and we got shit players / picks in return.

For T-Mac, I mean that one pretty much was what it was. It was a little bit bizarre watching him tour from city-to-city on his LeBron James style publicity tour but overall I think raps fans dug into this guy as a target. Fact is management was never going to be in the same level with other teams who were falling all over themselves to pay old lazy-eye as much as possible. He capitalized as a free agent and I don’t particularly blame him for it.

The side note is people seem to seek out the opportunity to be offended by their quotes, particularly when it comes to cultural differences between the US and Canada. As someone who has lived in both countries, I can tell you that despite being similar, there are differences. Shit is different, it’s not good or bad … just a little bit of a different flavor. So while I think it’s funny to hear people complain about the lack of ESPN, soul food, and the metric system … I have some sympathy for it.

I'll make one point though, and that's the comment about "leaders". Not every player has to be a leader to be effective. There are countless strikers out there who have a screw loose but they are part of successful teams because they can do a job. We should never lose sight of that.

I think back to year one where we had a "team of character". Probably the best collection of guys on any team in the league and stand-up individuals. The issue is: most of them we're badly embarrassed on a weekly basis trying to keep up with their opposite numbers. Games aren't won with smiles and handshakes unfortunately.


Did you see Vince/Tmac and Oakley on OTR last week? Tmac/Vince were RATTLED when Lansberg read the quote from Kobe that if that team had stayed together theyd have won at least 1 title. I came away from the whole thing feeling less bad about vince, and WAY more hateful towards Mcgrady. He just fucked up, and for NO reason. He even admitted it. That cocksucker. Also Oakley remains my favorite athlete ever.


Also, got to say sorry Roogs, was getting a bit frustrated at this place yest. Didn't mean to go in on you personally.

Roogsy
11-11-2011, 01:57 AM
Did you see Vince/Tmac and Oakley on OTR last week? Tmac/Vince were RATTLED when Lansberg read the quote from Kobe that if that team had stayed together theyd have won at least 1 title. I came away from the whole thing feeling less bad about vince, and WAY more hateful towards Mcgrady. He just fucked up, and for NO reason. He even admitted it. That cocksucker. Also Oakley remains my favorite athlete ever.


Also, got to say sorry Roogs, was getting a bit frustrated at this place yest. Didn't mean to go in on you personally.

Meh...it's all good. The Ibby pic made it all better.

The OAK! Yeah baby! Would have loved to play poker with that mofo...

Brooker
11-11-2011, 04:00 AM
Considering the MLS CBA has many "outs" for teams with burdensome contracts so they can squirm their way out, it would seem that the advantage is completely in favour of team owners and not the players. Why do they have the ability to get out of contracts and not players?

Well, you'll have to excuse me for not understanding that...

So if that's the case, why didn't we squirm our way out of Mista contract and JDG's contract considering they were so outrageous? Those 2 contracts seemed to be the straw that broke DeRo's back.

All this time I never knew we could.

swan
11-11-2011, 06:50 AM
I will never understand this point of view.

Yes, DeRo has played well enough in the last 3 years to theoretically earn a DP level salary. I think everyone can acknowledge that much.

However, he signed a legally binding contract at his own discretion. Merit has absolutely no bearing on a professional athlete's salary after he has committed to a multi year contract.

In professional sports, players can cash in based on their performance once they are free agents, or renegotiating a contract extension in the final year of an existing contract.

Professional athletes have no legal right to demand to renegotiate their contracts mid term. End of Story.


wtf does legal have to do with it..

there is nothing wrong with wanting to renegotiate a contract he is not the first player to want to and he won't be the last, it happens all the time...they don't have to wait until they are free agents to cash in contract get renegotiated lots before they are "free agents" so they can cash in..

if he demanded it and not played or trained until he got it then thats a different story but thats not what he did...

Fort York Redcoat
11-11-2011, 07:02 AM
Sounds to me like Henry wouldn't mind having DeRo back in NY.

Is he going to pay him like a DP?

ensco
11-11-2011, 07:32 AM
Dero is not Vince Carter. I mean c'mon.

Carter shut it down on the court to get traded. That is extremely rare. Dero did nothing of the sort.

Bill Simmons still goes out of his way to talk about how what Carter did was the worst thing he ever saw in professional sports, and how much he loves it that Vince still gets booed here.

ag futbol
11-11-2011, 08:28 AM
Did you see Vince/Tmac and Oakley on OTR last week? Tmac/Vince were RATTLED when Lansberg read the quote from Kobe that if that team had stayed together theyd have won at least 1 title. I came away from the whole thing feeling less bad about vince, and WAY more hateful towards Mcgrady. He just fucked up, and for NO reason. He even admitted it. That cocksucker. Also Oakley remains my favorite athlete ever.


Also, got to say sorry Roogs, was getting a bit frustrated at this place yest. Didn't mean to go in on you personally.
When it comes to those guys, respectively, I feel the same way.

McGrady was never anything but a mercenary chasing money. Carter had some character, liked the city, but didn't have the mental toughness to do it all on his own.

We had some really really good players back then, but they eventually slipped through our fingers. A friend of mine told me a story about Keon Clark playing golf with the executive team during the off season. GG was there along with a few other guys, raptors are 90% sure they are resigning Clark. Around the 5th hole, he pulls out a joint the size of a cannon and starts smoking it in front of the executive team! Long story short the guy ends up playing for the kings instead of the raptors and never really repeated the same success he had in Toronto.

As for Oakley, who can't like a guy who there are rumors about punching out another player over a gambling debt before practice. That shit is gangster!

Oldtimer
11-11-2011, 07:20 PM
New York Red Bulls general manager Erik Soler insists the club did not make a mistake in trading Dwayne De Rosario earlier this year.

http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/nyrb-deny-making-error-trading-de-rosario-dc-united-2136651

Pookie
11-11-2011, 07:44 PM
^ ah why go posting that?

I was lead to believe that while DeRo wasn't scoring in NY, they were happy with him because of his distribution. He was apparently being used differently and because I didn't have the NY Red Bulls on Demand, I wasn't aware of this transformation.

I was further lead to believe that the trade was made solely to beef up a back line. Not because of a desire to get something better in the midfield... the position he played.

Now, this..??? Was I mis-lead?


“Any individual that you bring into a new environment, there could be a blossoming. Other times, it works out differently. De Rosario was a great player when he came; he was a great player when he left. He didn’t score the goals for us that we hoped.

“But…we scored 46 goals from five different players. De Rosario would’ve never scored 15 goals for us, because we have other players scoring goals. We needed more power in the midfield, and we did a trade and were happy with the trade. The trade helped us get into the playoffs. D.C. did not get into the playoffs.

“My worry is about how the team does, and I think the team did well in the end. We’re happy to build on the squad we have. I don’t think De Rosario was a mistake; it was something we did, something we tried. It didn’t work out so we did another trade and got another good player in the squad and we’re happy with that.”

Oldtimer
11-11-2011, 08:59 PM
I think he's saying Pookie that they didn't need DeRo the goal-scorer, they needed DeRo the distributing midfielder, and there were better options than DeRo for distribution.

However, it does seem that beefing up the back-line wasn't the primary reason for the trade.

Roogsy
11-11-2011, 09:07 PM
I promised to stay out of this thread so I will simply ask this question and hope you guys answer it.

If they needed more "offense" whether it be by goals or setting up (both of which DeRo did) why then did they trade him for a DM and then bring in a DP keeper (who will probably not return next year)? And if your answer is that they always intended on doing so, I would hope you explain how they do that without trading a large asset like DeRo?

A little known stat you can check. During the period DeRo was with NY they were the highest scoring team in MLS. A position they lost when he left. You were saying something about team offense?

I wonder what the chances are that Soler is saving face here? Lord knows NY is under the gun for their underperformance especially in the 2nd half when they almost flunked out of a playoff spot. Unlike TFC, other team's management do find themselves under pressure when the team underperforms and in the process give up a valuable asset that critics argue would have helped them and that asset goes on to burn his former team and win accolades. It couldn't be that could it? I'd like to see an example of management stepping up and saying "we screwed up". Hell, if TFC under MoJo never did that why would a playoff team?

Chevy
11-11-2011, 09:33 PM
http://images7.cafepress.com/image/19514907_125x125.png

These boards provide killer entertainment. Killer!

Alonso
11-11-2011, 09:37 PM
http://images7.cafepress.com/image/19514907_125x125.png

These boards provide killer entertainment. Killer!

LOL

Not going to say a word.

Oldtimer
11-11-2011, 10:07 PM
I promised to stay out of this thread so I will simply ask this question and hope you guys answer it.

If they needed more "offense" whether it be by goals or setting up (both of which DeRo did) why then did they trade him for a DM and then bring in a DP keeper (who will probably not return next year)? And if your answer is that they always intended on doing so, I would hope you explain how they do that without trading a large asset like DeRo?



Ummm, we're not the GM Roogsy, why would we know why the amazing Red Bull GM and their World Class Coach Backe make the decisions they do, apart from what they tell us?

They may be lying to cover face (like you suggest), or they may be telling us the truth. We don't know.:noidea:

Anyhow, you stayed out of this thread for a few hours at least. :lol:

habstfc
11-11-2011, 10:33 PM
I promised to stay out of this thread so I will simply ask this question and hope you guys answer it.

If they needed more "offense" whether it be by goals or setting up (both of which DeRo did) why then did they trade him for a DM and then bring in a DP keeper (who will probably not return next year)? And if your answer is that they always intended on doing so, I would hope you explain how they do that without trading a large asset like DeRo?

A little known stat you can check. During the period DeRo was with NY they were the highest scoring team in MLS. A position they lost when he left. You were saying something about team offense?

I wonder what the chances are that Soler is saving face here? Lord knows NY is under the gun for their underperformance especially in the 2nd half when they almost flunked out of a playoff spot.

I think if NY had DeRo in the playoffs they might have won. I never got why they traded the guy after acquiring him for specific reasons, he seemed to be performing the way he was expected to so it's bewildering why they would trade him if he was meeting expectations. They sure could have used his offensive prowess in the playoffs.

ensco
11-11-2011, 11:05 PM
^It's been discussed, but I still think Backe didn't expect Dero to be committed to the CMNT. Dero missed games, and Backe got mad.

habstfc
11-11-2011, 11:12 PM
^It's been discussed, but I still think Backe didn't expect Dero to be committed to the CMNT. Dero missed games, and Backe got mad.

Marquez missed games too. They made a huge mistake trading him now they're just making excuses.

Alonso
11-11-2011, 11:13 PM
Did you see Vince/Tmac and Oakley on OTR last week? Tmac/Vince were RATTLED when Lansberg read the quote from Kobe that if that team had stayed together theyd have won at least 1 title. I came away from the whole thing feeling less bad about vince, and WAY more hateful towards Mcgrady. He just fucked up, and for NO reason. He even admitted it. That cocksucker. Also Oakley remains my favorite athlete ever.


Dude I shed a tear after watching this episode.

T-Mac and VC leaving the team were catalysts in me hating the management of the Leafs and Raptors in Toronto and resulting in me dropping them both like a bad habit (no more game attendance, no more tv watching since). And the departure of Bosch and to a lesser extent Dero has since justified my decision in my mind. If you can't keep these stars or attract other legitimate stars then what does that say about management?

I feel that TFC now having 3 dp's means that management is committed in spending all its possible resources which I was starting to doubt after the first few years where we didn't even have one dp. And the fact that the last 2 dp's (and the 1st dp to some extent) worked out so far this year is huge. The raptors need to spend heavily into the luxury tax if they ever want to see me back at the ACC.

This is a great market, and it makes its owners tonnes of money and I expect maximum salary spending on my teams in return.

The fact that T-Mac, Vince, Oak, Kobe, me, Waggy, Agfutbol and most of Toronto feel that they threw away / ruined something special makes me want to punch a hole in the wall.

Alonso
11-11-2011, 11:16 PM
I think if NY had DeRo in the playoffs they might have won. I never got why they traded the guy after acquiring him for specific reasons, he seemed to be performing the way he was expected to so it's bewildering why they would trade him if he was meeting expectations. They sure could have used his offensive prowess in the playoffs.

Not to mention his knack for rising up to the occasion a la Montreal, and his previous MLS cup playoff efforts. Dero is made for prime time.

Waggy
11-11-2011, 11:53 PM
The fact that T-Mac, Vince, Oak, Kobe, me, Waggy, Agfutbol and most of Toronto feel that they threw away / ruined something special makes me want to punch a hole in the wall.

I dunno how you cut them out. I try to cut the Raptors basically annually, but I just can't quit them. Bosh leaving doesn't bother me, but the way he left was really shady. Much more Vince than Dero. It seemed like he decided around the all star break (RIGHT after the trade deadline) that he wasn't coming back. You could see it in his play, and also if you go back and look at how he'd answer questions from before and after, it seems like that theory has some credence to it. So by then it was too late to trade him, we had to hope for a sign and trade. He then missed something like 10 of the last 18 games, first with a sprain and then a broken nose. He missed 6 games because of that broken nose. Had Toronto won 1 of those games, we'd have made the playoffs. Theres 2 losses of those last 6 games I really remember, but the most painful was definitely when we lost to Cleveland in OT at home without him.


And man, like ensco said, the way Vince left Toronto was just so huge, so imfamous that I think most sports fans in north america know what could have been with that team. (I LOVE when Simmons shouts that out. Always makes my day a little brighter, I don't know why). But the whole situations really sad. And after that OTR I can't help but think it's no-one but T-Macs fault. Grenwald and Babcock definitely didn't help anything, but from the OTR it sounds like if T-Mac stays, then Vince stays and we would have had the early 2000's equiv of the wade/lebron combo (obviously not as good, but still, 2 of the most dominant scorers of the past decade)

ag futbol
11-12-2011, 12:15 AM
Me personally, I could care less about Bosh. Doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with McGrady or Carter who are both legit primary options on playoff quality teams. CB4 is at best your second best player on an average team who plays terrible defense. And if you needed any more proof of where that guy is at, look how skinny the dude was when he showed up this year. He should have been hitting the gym like he did the year before, but hey who needs to do that now that the money is in the bank?

Anyway, I went from watching 60+ raptors games a year on TV plus going to 4-5 games a year to going to maybe one game (mainly to see who they are playing) and ignoring the raptors on TV in favor of watching the rest of the league. Frankly, the way they run the team is disgusting and unworthy of my support.

ensco
11-12-2011, 09:04 AM
Marquez missed games too.

Marquez starred for FCB, and the Mexican MNT is a big deal. I don't think Backe felt Dero, or the CMNT, deserved the same consideration. He definitely was publicly expecting Dero not to play CMNT games.

Yohan
11-12-2011, 03:38 PM
Becks think Davis is MVP?
http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/soccer/post/_/id/12144/mls-is-davis-mvp-becks-says-so

rocker
11-12-2011, 04:38 PM
So Becks is privy to the vote totals eh? I guess MLS doesn't use a secure accounting firm. LOL.

Pookie
11-12-2011, 04:49 PM
Players get a 1/3 vote.

Don't think it is out of the realm of possible that with the MVP going to the First Place team in 8 of the last 10 years that they would give it to Davis.

Honestly, all this talk about the various options... how many Houston Dynamo games did any of us actually see?

As for Soler and Backe comments on DeRo... I'm pretty sure I was mis-lead.

Waggy
11-12-2011, 07:41 PM
So Becks is privy to the vote totals eh? I guess MLS doesn't use a secure accounting firm. LOL.

Well that'd make it WAY harder for MLS to rig it. Jeez, next thing you'll be asking Concacaf to do their draws at least somewhat publicly.

Oldtimer
11-12-2011, 11:09 PM
The whole idea of an MVP in soccer is a bit silly. It's a team sport, and whilst some individuals really shine and give exciting plays, it's really having a well-built and winning team that counts.

Shakes McQueen
11-12-2011, 11:32 PM
^It's been discussed, but I still think Backe didn't expect Dero to be committed to the CMNT. Dero missed games, and Backe got mad.

Why wouldn't he expect that? DeRo missed tons of games with us, to play for the CMNT.

I don't think Backe is the god of footy managers, but I can't imagine he's that dense.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
11-12-2011, 11:38 PM
Dero is not Vince Carter. I mean c'mon.

Carter shut it down on the court to get traded. That is extremely rare. Dero did nothing of the sort.

Bill Simmons still goes out of his way to talk about how what Carter did was the worst thing he ever saw in professional sports, and how much he loves it that Vince still gets booed here.

Yeah, I call bunk on letting Carter off the hook for his actions, or worse, putting it on the Raptors instead. Carter tanked himself, to get traded. Worse, Carter ADMITTED he tanked, to get traded. That's a cardinal sin of professional athletics, and something that would incense any sports fan.

For it to be the one-time beloved star player of the team, just compounded things times a thousand.

McGrady was a bum too, but Carter earned his reviled status in this city.

- Scott

ensco
11-12-2011, 11:52 PM
Why wouldn't he expect that? DeRo missed tons of games with us, to play for the CMNT.

I don't think Backe is the god of footy managers, but I can't imagine he's that dense.

- Scott


Here you go. Soler says Dero's agent said so.
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/soccerblog/red_bull_gm_soler_don_think_de_rosario_2Z3zjbXGPZQ oRDOQSGl4gN

Shakes McQueen
11-13-2011, 12:02 AM
Here you go. Soler says Dero's agent said so.
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/soccerblog/red_bull_gm_soler_don_think_de_rosario_2Z3zjbXGPZQ oRDOQSGl4gN

If it's true (and it could just be a GM trying to give himself cover by blaming the agent), then that's really dense, and means he didn't do his homework on why DeRo stopped playing for the CMNT for a while. Unreal.

That's a pretty scathing article of DeRo's time in NY, though. Wow. Especially these parts:



But…we scored 46 goals from five different players. De Rosario would’ve never scored 15 goals for us, because we have other players scoring goals. We needed more power in the midfield, and we did a trade and were happy with the trade. The trade helped us get into the playoffs. D.C. did not get into the playoffs.


“My worry is about how the team does, and I think the team did well in the end. We’re happy to build on the squad we have. I don’t think De Rosario was a mistake; it was something we did, something we tried. It didn’t work out so we did another trade and got another good player in the squad and we’re happy with that.



...


De Rosario also made no secret of his desire to sign a long-term Designated Player contract, and that was an investment the Red Bulls were unwilling or incapable of making; and it was clear from his FC Toronto stay that an underpaid De Rosario can be a disruptive De Rosario.



Definitely lends credence to the idea that we might be getting saturated by too much "insider info" coming from one self-interested side, and hence, not getting the fuller, more accurate picture. Or it's Soler covering his behind, combined with a sports writer lazily casting aspersions they can't back up. Wouldn't be the first time.


Though even then, the best justification Soler offers for why DeRo wasn't a mistake is essentially "it was worth a shot". That's pretty bad.


- Scott

DichioTFC
11-13-2011, 02:05 AM
I kinda want Beckham to get the award, it will give the league a bit more international attention.

Chevy
11-13-2011, 09:11 AM
Ben hits the nail on the head re: MeRo...


http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?2401-The-DeRo-MVP-thing

menefreghista
11-13-2011, 09:28 AM
Definitely lends credence to the idea that we might be getting saturated by too much "insider info" coming from one self-interested side,

On this forum I see more of the opposite. People bending over backwards to defend one of the worst trades in TFC history, leaving the team's offence in shambles for more than half the regular season. Part of this is due to the love of Aron Winter. And part is due to the pro-management stance of a lot of the supporters on this forum.

And the anti-DeRo bunch continue to try to slag him, despite the fact that his play proves the opposite of what all his detractors were saying.

Its funny to read though. The anti-DeRo bunch remind me a bit of the Tea Party in the US.

rocker
11-13-2011, 09:36 AM
The anti-DeRo bunch remind me a bit of the Tea Party in the US.

In what way?

Roogsy
11-13-2011, 10:23 AM
If it's true (and it could just be a GM trying to give himself cover by blaming the agent), then that's really dense, and means he didn't do his homework on why DeRo stopped playing for the CMNT for a while. Unreal.

That's a pretty scathing article of DeRo's time in NY, though. Wow. Especially these parts:

Definitely lends credence to the idea that we might be getting saturated by too much "insider info" coming from one self-interested side, and hence, not getting the fuller, more accurate picture. Or it's Soler covering his behind, combined with a sports writer lazily casting aspersions they can't back up. Wouldn't be the first time.

Though even then, the best justification Soler offers for why DeRo wasn't a mistake is essentially "it was worth a shot". That's pretty bad.


- Scott


So we're still sticking to the story that Soler isn't under fire right now and making excuses for a year full of underperformance and drama? This article was a very interesting read, especially the national call-ups part that seem to back up Ensco's point.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/ny-red-bulls-wrap-a-season-flux-controversy-a-misguided-roster-controversial-gm-soler-article-1.975760


Perhaps Soler’s worst transaction was trading Dwayne de Rosario, a candidate to win his third league MVP award, in what appears a botched exchange.

Pressed on the subject last month, Soler refused to concede he had made a mistake by acquiring and trading away De Rosario in a span of three months. “It’s nobody’s fault it didn’t work out,” he said. “It just wasn’t a good fit here.”

But Thierry Henry, the team’s mega-star, disagreed that a player of De Rosario’s talent couldn’t fit.Hmmm...doesn't sound like he's getting much grief over the DeRo trade does it? LOL! The only people applauding this trade are the anti-DeRo crowd in Toronto.


According to multiple sources, D.C. United’s original offer for De Rosario included a high allocation pick and Dax McCarty. Soler rejected the deal. When he finally decided to pull the trigger, D.C. was only willing to give up McCarty — a midfielder who wasn’t nearly as productive as De Rosario and who served a one-game team suspension in October.

Avoiding any potential confrontation, Soler reportedly didn’t tell De Rosario he had been traded. Soler also failed to personally tell Danleigh Borman and Tony Tchani they had been traded for Rosario, according to a league source.Man this guy sounds like the 2nd coming of Mo Johnson!

We are talking about a GM that wanted to renegotiate an extension to DeRo, but a few months later is revising his story?

http://www.newyorkredbulls.com/news/2011/06/rbny-sporting-director-sol%C3%A9r-says-changes-are-coming


“When he’s back, we will speak to him to see where he’s at and what is
possible,” Solér said. “We hope, of course, that we can have him for
more years.”So let me get this straight, in November he thinks moving DeRo was the right move, but in June he was talking about extending his contract? DeRo was only moved 2 weeks after this article, did he all of a sudden have a cataclysmic dip in form that made Soler see the error of his ways? Or was it the Gold Cup departure coupled with NY's defensive woes during the season? Which seems more reasonable to you people?

So right now he's talking about needing more goals and yet when he traded for McCarty this was the story:

http://www.newyorkredbulls.com/news/2011/06/sol%C3%A9r-mccarty-deal-gives-ny-cap-space-more-signings


Solér said the Red Bulls are looking at a move to bring in a defender during the summer transfer window, and that the versatility shown by Designated Player Thierry Henry could result in the Frenchman playing in a No. 10 role for the team, perhaps filling in the role vacated by De Rosario.So was this a move to bring in some sort of magical goal-scoring defender? And McCarty was it? That's what it would have to be for the naysayers in this thread. And the next move? A DP keeper. In fact, of all the trades in the transfer window, all of them were moves to acquire "defensive" players, like Jones from KC. Where exactly were these goals they needed going to come from? And nobody has yet to answer why a team that was tops in the league in goals was "looking for more goals".

We're getting the Soler spin right now and you guys are willingly buying into it without putting things into context. What did Backe say when DeRo returned from Gold Cup duty?

http://www.newyorkredbulls.com/news/2011/06/de-rosario-admits-early-return-red-bulls-bittersweet


And while teammate Thierry Henry said that he was glad to have De
Rosario back, he definitely wasn’t rooting against De Ro and Canada.
Head coach Hans Backe, however, was a little more open with his response
to the return of the midfielder.
“I was pretty happy,” Backe said.
What does that sound like to you guys? In fact, have we heard a single thing from Backe that reinforces what Soler is dishing right now? You'd really need it considering that Soler is contradicting himself all over the place.

You know, I really hate having to go back on my word about staying out of this thread, but you guys and your refusal to do your homework, refusal to remember things the way they actually happen and your choice to accept only the information only that fits your narrative including rewriting history forces me to have to constantly provide information that contradicts the false information you promote due to your bias. (Not talking about you Scott, but you are not providing the balance that you normally would.) Given what I provided you, do you still believe Soler believed acquiring DeRo was about taking a "shot" at something? And that when he traded him it's because that "shot" didn't work out?

I hope to see some explanations for what I provided above. There needs to be reconciliation between Soler's comments in June and the ones he has made now in November. Without such reconciliation, it is selective quoting and nothing else. Bascially it's the anti-DeRo crows is just throwing shit against the wall and hoping something sticks.

Chevy
11-13-2011, 10:50 AM
Rocker, I guess it's because they ignore facts, reasoning, logic and personal bias in their continuous and apoplectic defense of a misguided and malformed doctrine.

Hey wait a minute....that's the OTHER guys... :)

menefreghista
11-13-2011, 11:00 AM
Hey wait a minute....that's the OTHER guys... :)

Only in your own mind....

I've stated this previously. I had no problem trading De Rosario if TFC had gotten good value in return and/or had an adequate replacement in place immediately.

How some posters are trying to deny that De Rosario is still one of the best in the league amazes me.

But the anti-Dero brigade is still trying to knock him down. Its insane.

Fort York Redcoat
11-13-2011, 11:12 AM
Wow DeRo is clearly the worst managed player of the past couple of years to read some of these posts. I'm sure this golden boot winner will be followed closely enough in the following seasons to note all and any future unjustified indignities and disrespect our Canadian All-Star suffers by his future club's management.

I wonder, though, if rooting out any and all persons on our team responsible in dealing with this possible MVP would be the best way for the progress of this club. Perhaps written apologies from all TFC management?

More important to me is that he's an MVP on Tuesday. That's the only DeRo I need to cheer for, for now.

Yohan
11-13-2011, 11:13 AM
Only in your own mind....

I've stated this previously. I had no problem trading De Rosario if TFC had gotten good value in return and/or had an adequate replacement in place immediately.

How some posters are trying to deny that De Rosario is still one of the best in the league amazes me.

But the anti-Dero brigade is still trying to knock him down. Its insane.
TFC should have just Tevez'd DeRo's ass?

Fort York Redcoat
11-13-2011, 11:32 AM
Only in your own mind....

I've stated this previously. I had no problem trading De Rosario if TFC had gotten good value in return and/or had an adequate replacement in place immediately.

How some posters are trying to deny that De Rosario is still one of the best in the league amazes me.

But the anti-Dero brigade is still trying to knock him down. Its insane.

It's a pretty small brigade. Most here debate upon the worth of him on our team not his output on the field. I think most here are tiring more of revisting history than rewriting it.

rocker
11-13-2011, 12:32 PM
Rocker, I guess it's because they ignore facts, reasoning, logic and personal bias in their continuous and apoplectic defense of a misguided and malformed doctrine.

Hey wait a minute....that's the OTHER guys... :)

Oh, I thought it was the pro-DeRo crowd that could be compared to Tea Party types.. I mean, they both are a cult of personality surrounding an individual who is known not to function within a team but wants to be the star. Sarah Palin anyone?

Pookie
11-13-2011, 02:43 PM
Only in your own mind....

I've stated this previously. I had no problem trading De Rosario if TFC had gotten good value in return and/or had an adequate replacement in place immediately.



What's good value for a player:

- that makes the league max in a salary cap world
- that has made public his desire for a DP salary in the millions
- that has threatened to hold out in order to be shown "respect" in the form of a new contract

Excellent returns are created when there is a bidding war. When demand exceeds supply so to speak. I'm not seeing many teams lining up to load up on that kind of baggage.

Alonso
11-13-2011, 04:49 PM
Only in your own mind....

I've stated this previously. I had no problem trading De Rosario if TFC had gotten good value in return and/or had an adequate replacement in place immediately.

How some posters are trying to deny that De Rosario is still one of the best in the league amazes me.

But the anti-Dero brigade is still trying to knock him down. Its insane.

I don't recall reading any posts by anybody on this forum that deny Dero is one of the best in the league.

People here have a problem with his character not his play.

Roogsy
11-18-2011, 12:45 AM
I don't recall reading any posts by anybody on this forum that deny Dero is one of the best in the league.

Then you haven't been paying attention very well.


People here have a problem with his character not his play.What people have a problem with is the perceived character problem based on innuendo, gossip and rumour. Nobody has bothered to stick to the facts or bothered to prove anything. In fact, what we have usually seen around these parts is the dismissal of evidence to the contrary.

I distinctly remember his stint in NY, and the subsequent trade. If you were paying attention at the time, the analysis of his game in NY was laughable and then the speculation as to reasons for the trade was almost as ridiculous, including some pulling out the whole "there must be a character problem" even though at the time it seemed like a fairly straight-forward trade. Backwards analysis now shows that it was a trade made to address some of NY's short-comings.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/article/1088040--is-anyone-better-than-dwayne-de-rosario


In New York, playing for the same salary he got in Toronto — $493,750 (U.S.) — he boosted the Red Bulls offensively but, as the third-highest-paid guy on the roster after designated players Thierry Henry and Rafa Marquez, he became expendable as the team sought desperately-needed defensive help. Less than a month after he was sent to D.C., New York signed veteran German goalkeeper Frank Rost.The knock on DeRo has almost always come out of the Toronto area, usually by TFC apologists. League-wide he is appreciated pretty much everywhere in this league except here. Even in NY where he played less than a dozen games they appreciate him more than TFC fans do, and he didn't even help bring them any trophies like he did here, including our first. In my opinion, the adherence to the TFC narrative by the fans here only serves to reinforce my perception that TFC fans are willing buyers of TFC propaganda even when it's proves to be untrue.

Thankfully, this year is almost over and despite the fact that TFC fans have not held this team accountable for a historically bad year and for executing probably the worst trade an MLS team has done in recent memory, there is nothing left to do but to put this year away forever in the archives and hope that not only will TFC do better in the future, but that TFC fans will also do a better job of holding this team accountable.

As for the MVP award, I will go out on a limb and predict that Dwayne DeRosario will in fact win the award tomorrow. And it will cap a career year for him.

MLS Golden Boot Winner
MLS Best XI (for the record-breaking 6th time)
Tied for Canada's leading scorer
and now MLS MVP

And yet somehow TFC fans will continue to convince themselves that we were better off without him.

Brooker
11-18-2011, 06:21 AM
Am I the only one who thinks an MVP award is fucking stupid in the first place? People are acting as if it's fact not opinion.

DeRo won, btw.

London
11-18-2011, 07:03 AM
winner is dero


http://www.mlssoccer.com/awards/2011/mvp

GBV
11-18-2011, 07:39 AM
Congrats. Deserved.

Fort York Redcoat
11-18-2011, 08:00 AM
And yet somehow TFC fans will continue to convince themselves that we were better off without him.

"Are" not "Were". I would argue that now that this is so very over that most people not gnashing their teeth over seeing the back of him realize that the point in time when things could be salvaged between player and team has long gone.

Congrats on tying Dale's record DeRo. Let's see you top it in February's friendly.

Pookie
11-18-2011, 08:26 AM
That's very nice for him.

ensco
11-18-2011, 08:27 AM
Would anyone here have bet on Dero winning the MVP award in pre season? Amazing....

Pookie
11-18-2011, 08:31 AM
^ motivation is a wonderful thing.

canadian_bhoy
11-18-2011, 08:35 AM
http://gotorontofc.com/wiki/images/c/c3/Andy_Welsh.jpg

Oblio2
11-18-2011, 08:43 AM
http://gotorontofc.com/wiki/images/c/c3/Andy_Welsh.jpg


I love you Andy

Oblio2
11-18-2011, 08:43 AM
Well deserved from Dero. Well played.

Fort York Redcoat
11-18-2011, 08:44 AM
^^That's not DeRo.

Ageroo
11-18-2011, 08:44 AM
Congrats to DeRo!

Roogsy
11-18-2011, 08:48 AM
"Are" not "Were". I would argue that now that this is so very over that most people not gnashing their teeth over seeing the back of him realize that the point in time when things could be salvaged between player and team has long gone.

Congrats on tying Dale's record DeRo. Let's see you top it in February's friendly.

The fact they didn't even try to salvage it is something fans should not be happy about and yet seem to care very little, just like we barely whimpered about the pathetic record this year. And yet in NY, for a player than played a handful of games, the GM is getting much more flack from fans and the press over his trade when he arguably got more in his trade than we did. It's mindblowing.

Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.

Wull
11-18-2011, 08:48 AM
Congrats to DeRo!

this ^

Fort York Redcoat
11-18-2011, 08:55 AM
The fact they didn't even try to salvage it is something fans should not be happy about and yet seem to care very little, just like we barely whimpered about the pathetic record this year. And yet in NY, for a player than played a handful of games, the GM is getting much more flack from fans and the press over his trade when he arguably got more in his trade than we did. It's mindblowing.

Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.

Yes and those that live in the past...

I'm for more discussing, ranting even. Less whimpering.

Pookie
11-18-2011, 08:57 AM
The fact they didn't even try to salvage it is something fans should not be happy about and yet seem to care very little, just like we barely whimpered about the pathetic record this year. And yet in NY, for a player than played a handful of games, the GM is getting much more flack from fans and the press over his trade when he arguably got more in his trade than we did. It's mindblowing.

Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.

Arguably got more than we did? Weakly arguable you mean. DC was willing to part with McCarty and a first round pick. At some point they said, you know, a 1st is way too much for this guy and pulled it off the table.

Without any other offers from any other club, NY pulled the trigger.

It's fair to say that a couple of things happened here.

DeRo played as if he was trying to prove a point. With his offseason, who could blame him.

Teams in the league looked at DeRo and the drama and said as good as he is, there isn't a lot of value to be had here. Maybe for a bag of soccer balls but not for anything of significance.

Going forward, the interesting question is does DeRo have any more trade value now that he has this award? Does it change anything? Would he be valued as high as Dononvan was in 2009? Or Ferreira was in 2010?

Ageroo
11-18-2011, 09:00 AM
What's done is done......he is not with TFC and I refuse to get into issues other than I am proud of him...

He wears his heart on his sleeve. He is a great representative of the Guyanese Canadian community(which I am a part of), a great Torontonian and a true Canadian Patriot......for all these reasons I am happy for him as this is a well deserved honour for a great season.

Ageroo
11-18-2011, 09:07 AM
DeRo played as if he was trying to prove a point.

Not trying to stir up anything here Pookie.......but I don't argree with this at all. Sure he had a career year, but every year and every where DeRo goes he is a game changer. A player that every manager makes sure that he isn't given time and space to operate...and yet time and time again he rips teams apart......

I think that circumstance of the off season and beginning of the year makes the "proving a point" theory a nice bit of fiction......but I still think DeRo was going to have a good season where ever he ended up. Last season with TFC he put up big numbers and was playing great....it isn't too much of a stretch to think he could capitalize on his progress of last season....my opinion though.

Pookie
11-18-2011, 09:23 AM
You aren't stiring anything with me. He was always a good player. The question was always around the baggage that he brought with him.

I do think he had a little bit of an extra push wanting to put up some good numbers. Apparently, that desire to add to his stats was part of the reason he fell out of favor in NY.

Regardless, great individual campaign for him. Many aspiring players would love the numbers he put up

Oldtimer
11-18-2011, 09:24 AM
Not trying to stir up anything here Pookie.......but I don't argree with this at all. Sure he had a career year, but every year and every where DeRo goes he is a game changer. A player that every manager makes sure that he isn't given time and space to operate...and yet time and time again he rips teams apart......

I think that circumstance of the off season and beginning of the year makes the "proving a point" theory a nice bit of fiction......but I still think DeRo was going to have a good season where ever he ended up. Last season with TFC he put up big numbers and was playing great....it isn't too much of a stretch to think he could capitalize on his progress of last season....my opinion though.

The only way to play DeRo effectively is to build your team around him, which would imply a very different system than TFC has. Can it be done? For sure, and you could have a solid team for however long it takes until he retires.

What it would mean is that DeRo would be your DP, and probably your only DP. Then you would build a solid balanced cast of midrange ($150k-$200k) players to support him.

It will be interesting to see how it goes with DC, as this seems to be the path they are taking. There is always a danger in building a team around one player, but for as long as it goes well, it can be an opportunity.

TFC is taking a different tack, where the system rather than the players is primary. Ironically, this is the approach that DC took for a decade before their current coach. You find a few key players who play the system well, and supplement them with MLS plumbers who can play it decently enough.
DeRo might have been able to fit well inside a system like this, but I think he'll be much happier with what DC is doing, as it will be more natural for him.

Roogsy
11-18-2011, 09:39 AM
Arguably got more than we did? Weakly arguable you mean. DC was willing to part with McCarty and a first round pick. At some point they said, you know, a 1st is way too much for this guy and pulled it off the table.

Without any other offers from any other club, NY pulled the trigger.

I like how you ignore the fact that it has been published that DC initially offered more but NY didn't pull the trigger. Much like with the NBA, once your best offer on the table is rejected, you often offer less in subsequent negotiations. The fact that Soler and Winter didn't get maximum for DeRo is precisely because both played their hands wrong.


It's fair to say that a couple of things happened here.

DeRo played as if he was trying to prove a point. With his offseason, who could blame him.

I guess he has been trying to prove a point for 10 years because he has been performing like a winner throughout his career. In fact, can you point to a poor year DeRo has had?


Teams in the league looked at DeRo and the drama and said as good as he is, there isn't a lot of value to be had here. Maybe for a bag of soccer balls but not for anything of significance.

This is classic rewriting of history. I told you guys multiple teams were bidding on DeRo. You guys didn't believe me. Fine. You have no reason to. Then the media themselves admit as much that teams like NY, SJ, DC and Houston were after DeRo in the offseason. 4 teams bidding on a single player doesn't happen when teams don't perceive value. You are attributing the results of bad trading decisions as somehow a judgement of value. Winter and Soler's fuck-ups doesn't mean that the other teams didn't want DeRo, it's just that they smelled blood in the water and decided to take advantage of a couple of desperate GMs.


Going forward, the interesting question is does DeRo have any more trade value now that he has this award? Does it change anything? Would he be valued as high as Dononvan was in 2009? Or Ferreira was in 2010?

We will just let the new contract speak for itself. The Anti-DeRo side on this board has had their arguments knocked down one after the other. The last remaining pillar remains whether teams are willing to pay more than his current contract and more than TFC was willing to offer. I said they were, now it's just a matter of making it public. And then the Anti-DeRo side can sleep tight with the only argument that they have left but has no evidenciary substance, that TFC were better off without him. Which of course is hard to believe given where we wound up in the standings. The way I see it, the only way that could have been true is if having DeRo would have landed us in 17th or 18th place instead of 16th, and I doubt many believe that. According to the significance of this award, it looks like a large segment, if not most of this league disagrees with that hypothesis.

brandrews
11-18-2011, 09:41 AM
congratulations to dwayne de rosario for both winning the mvp and for tying the canadian goal scoring record directly in front of supporters that he loves; i'm super happy for him.

phonzo
11-18-2011, 09:42 AM
grats to him.... he did have a good season and helped DC turn its ship. As for his time with TFC...it's done and over time to move on.

Roogsy
11-18-2011, 09:43 AM
You aren't stiring anything with me. He was always a good player. The question was always around the baggage that he brought with him.

I do think he had a little bit of an extra push wanting to put up some good numbers. Apparently, that desire to add to his stats was part of the reason he fell out of favor in NY.

Regardless, great individual campaign for him. Many aspiring players would love the numbers he put up


I don't disagree that he had a little more motivation this year that may have added to his performance. But isn't that what you want from a player? Someone who performs and then when given reason, takes it to the next level?

And do you have any evidence that he "fell out of favour" in NY? Given what I showed you in a post a few days about about the timing of his trade and the statements from Backe and Soler just weeks before the trade, can you prove your theory?

TFCRegina
11-18-2011, 09:47 AM
De Ro's "falling out" at New York had to do with the fact that New York was leaking goals like TFC and needed to plug the gap. They also had an issue where it appeared they wouldn't be able to keep him due to combined salaries of De Ro's, Marquez, Henry. They made a choice to ship De Ro out in for a defensive midfielder to fix the issue. Turns out Marquez was a real cancer in the squad and they wished they hadn't moved De Ro and they had the info they did.

I don't know why this is still being discussed. Apparently, Pookie, you just flat out ignore newspaper articles that completely disagree with your point of view.

Roogsy
11-18-2011, 09:53 AM
Yes and those that live in the past...

I'm for more discussing, ranting even. Less whimpering.

Of course it's not surprising that pointing out a relevant and salient fact about this team and it's screw-ups is "whimpering".

And it's only in the "past" when the parties involved are no longer with TFC. So long as there are parties involved in the DeRo debacle still with this team, it's not the past, it's a part of the overall performance to be judged. Surely even you agree that performance analysis is necessary. So the question is will you selectively use what suits you to generate that performance evaluation? Surely something that happened 7 months ago is relevant to someone's performance evaluation THIS year?

Roogsy
11-18-2011, 09:55 AM
De Ro's "falling out" at New York had to do with the fact that New York was leaking goals like TFC and needed to plug the gap. They also had an issue where it appeared they wouldn't be able to keep him due to combined salaries of De Ro's, Marquez, Henry. They made a choice to ship De Ro out in for a defensive midfielder to fix the issue. Turns out Marquez was a real cancer in the squad and they wished they hadn't moved De Ro and they had the info they did.

I don't know why this is still being discussed. Apparently, Pookie, you just flat out ignore newspaper articles that completely disagree with your point of view.

I do like how it's become a "falling out" all of a sudden. Like I have mentioned many times before, when someone wants a particular narrative believed, all you have to do is state it as if it is fact, and keep repeating it, and eventually it becomes a part of accepted "history" on this board. No facts or substantiation necesssary.

prizby
11-18-2011, 09:55 AM
dero left nyrb so they could free up enough cap room to sign frank rost

just like dero leaving tfc let us sign koef and frings

TFCRegina
11-18-2011, 10:02 AM
I do like how it's become a "falling out" all of a sudden. Like I have mentioned many times before, when someone wants a particular narrative believed, all you have to do is state is if it is fact, and keep repeating it, and eventually it becomes a part of accepted "history" on a forum. No facts or substantiation necesssary.

MYP

Welcome to Canadian Soccer.

Pookie
11-18-2011, 10:10 AM
De Ro's "falling out" at New York had to do with the fact that New York was leaking goals like TFC and needed to plug the gap. They also had an issue where it appeared they wouldn't be able to keep him due to combined salaries of De Ro's, Marquez, Henry. They made a choice to ship De Ro out in for a defensive midfielder to fix the issue. Turns out Marquez was a real cancer in the squad and they wished they hadn't moved De Ro and they had the info they did.

I don't know why this is still being discussed. Apparently, Pookie, you just flat out ignore newspaper articles that completely disagree with your point of view.

I never called him a cancer. I said it wasnt working out for him in NY as he wasn't the main guy.

As for newspapers, I read quite well thank you. For instance, I read this:

"He didn't work out here, he didn't score," Soler said. "He's a great player as long as he has the ball, and we already have those kinds of players here.... He's not a guy that likes to play a complementary role. He didn't fit in... We know that Theirry Henry needs the ball, and on a smaller scale DeRo is the same. "

http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/red-bulls-soler-looks-back-and-peeks-ahead

Carts
11-18-2011, 10:10 AM
Congrats to Dero, in my opinion, he deserved it.

I hate the thought in pro-sports that the MVP has to be on a "playoff or good team".

The league reconized his play all season, even in three uniforms (where in NA sports, trades are a fact of life).

Good for him, congrats to him, lets hope this makes his play for Canada in qualifying even better (some motivation or whatevs) and the CMNT keep'r'going and earn a spot in the big show (big goal - but you gotta dream big!)

TFCRegina
11-18-2011, 10:13 AM
Of course it's not surprising that pointing out a relevant and salient fact about this team and it's screw-ups is "whimpering".

And it's only in the "past" when the parties involved are no longer with TFC. So long as there are parties involved in the DeRo debacle still with this team, it's not the past, it's a part of the overall performance to be judged. Surely even you agree that performance analysis is necessary. So the question is will you selectively use what suits you to generate that performance evaluation? Surely something that happened 7 months ago is relevant to someone's performance evaluation THIS year?

While I hope we move on from the De Ro issue in the coming year, when it comes to discussing the performance of the club's senior management, it should /ALWAYS/ be brought up.

Screw ups of that magnitude in any normal business would result in a firing, but not at TFC.

Roogsy
11-18-2011, 10:15 AM
While I hope we move on from the De Ro issue in the coming year, when it comes to discussing the performance of the club's senior management, it should /ALWAYS/ be brought up.

Screw ups of that magnitude in any normal business would result in a firing, but not at TFC.

Shit...Leaf fans STILL talk about trades like Sittler and McDonald. We still get angry over Fraser's call in the '93 playoffs.

But trading away an MLS MVP for a bag of balls and then suffering an embarrassingly bad year is something that should be accepted and forgotten immediately.

Pookie
11-18-2011, 10:19 AM
I like how you ignore the fact that it has been published that DC initially offered more but NY didn't pull the trigger. Much like with the NBA, once your best offer on the table is rejected, you often offer less in subsequent negotiations. The fact that Soler and Winter didn't get maximum for DeRo is precisely because both played their hands wrong.

what's the max trade value for a player that is threatening to hold out?

Seems like there weren't many card players at this game.


Iguess he has been trying to prove a point for 10 years because he has been performing like a winner throughout his career. In fact, can you point to a poor year DeRo has had?

A poor year DeRo has had? Nope.

A poor year for teams DeRo has played on? Yep



This is classic rewriting of history. I told you guys multiple teams were bidding on DeRo.

So, we are to believe that both TFC and NY, despite multiple teams supposedly jerking themselves silly over the thought of having DeRo, opted to take the lowest offer on the table?
:facepalm:

Fort York Redcoat
11-18-2011, 10:21 AM
The fact they didn't even try to salvage it is something fans should not be happy about and yet seem to care very little, just like we barely whimpered about the pathetic record this year.




:noidea:

Wimpering was your term.



Of course it's not surprising that pointing out a relevant and salient fact about this team and it's screw-ups is "whimpering".

And it's only in the "past" when the parties involved are no longer with TFC. So long as there are parties involved in the DeRo debacle still with this team, it's not the past, it's a part of the overall performance to be judged. Surely even you agree that performance analysis is necessary. So the question is will you selectively use what suits you to generate that performance evaluation? Surely something that happened 7 months ago is relevant to someone's performance evaluation THIS year?

from a page earlier this thread.




I wonder, though, if rooting out any and all persons on our team responsible in dealing with this possible MVP would be the best way for the progress of this club. Perhaps written apologies from all TFC management?


Sorry, where was I discrediting his performance? Performance is critical to worth but is not the entire measurement.

phonzo
11-18-2011, 10:24 AM
we can sit here and mumble how bad the trade was or good until we turn blue. It doesn't change that it happened and perhaps it was a poor decision by winter perhaps it was a good one. Either way it happened; I think the concern is these threads quickly turn into a whimsical circular argument which neither side will concede to.

Ageroo
11-18-2011, 10:25 AM
Celebrate the MVP in here I say........:)

Roogsy
11-18-2011, 10:26 AM
A poor year teams at DeRo has played on have had? Yep

Not sure what that proves. Every player plays on teams that have had poor years. On Toronto FC can we really say that the poor years we have our entire existance fall on DeRo's shoulders or elsewhere like Anselmi and MoJo?

COnsidering before he arrived he was a multiple winner of awards, while he was here he won us our only awards and after he left he continues to win awards says more than your correlation about how he played on teams that have had poor years. Its no coincidence that those poor years were with Toronto FC.


So, we are to believe that both TFC and NY, despite multiple teams supposedly jerking themselves silly over the thought of having DeRo, opted to take the lowest offer on the table?

No, if you chose to read the relevant articles you would have been better informed and realized that teams offered more than both Toronto and NY wound up receiving. Except that both Toronto and NY decided to waffle and waste time and lollygag and by the time they decided to come back to the negotiating table, the offers had changed. I am not sure how that is hard to believe since it happens all the time, and we're seeing it happen in the NBA. Believe me, I think the players walked away from the best offer they were going to get from the owners and will wind up getting less AND have lost the season. I don't know how much experience you have in negotiations but it's a tough game and there are always winners and losers.

johntv
11-18-2011, 10:27 AM
I am very happy for him.I coached against him while he played for St Andrews in Scarborough.I knew than that he was going to be a star and just for that painfull record he always managed to score at least 5 goals aganst my team every game.He was simply amazing.Good show,little creep as I called him and still do.

Gazza
11-18-2011, 10:28 AM
Big Up!

"It's a major award!" (Christmas Story Reference)

Best talent to come out of Scarborough since Kish.

Yet another embarrassment for MLSE.

Couchy81
11-18-2011, 10:32 AM
Congrats Dero. We should credit Anselmi and Mojo for brining him here in the first place, but we can also blame them for not knowing what to do with him once he was here. Such a waste for TFC as a whole. Short sighted management is hopefully now in our past.

Roogsy
11-18-2011, 10:32 AM
KISH!

:lol:

Oh man blast from the past.

Fort York Redcoat
11-18-2011, 10:33 AM
Big Up!

"It's a major award!" (Christmas Story Reference)

Best talent to come out of Scarborough since Kish.

Yet another embarrassment for MLSE.

Nice one!

http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/m/m9xX7J43y0T1-I0tBsUQs7A/140.jpg

Oldtimer
11-18-2011, 10:59 AM
That lamp isn't the MVP award, is it? :lol:

Anyways, with us now knowing who won, we close this thread.