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__wowza
10-15-2011, 05:03 PM
we have 7 ties on the road, but because BMO wasnt the fortress its been in previous years, we didnt convert that into a playoff spot.

discuss? i'll go first:

- harden shit the bed on the goal, but he was still solid.
- kocic is a beast of a backup.
- still proud of our youth. no one had a breakout game but im looking forward to next season already.
- fair reflection with who we played.
- avila is fucking fanstastic.
- frings and plata had some playing time and are getting rested.
- we ship out to dallas tomorrow morning.

__wowza
10-15-2011, 05:06 PM
personally i thought winter made all the right moves.
i wouldve enjoyed to see plata on for longer what with his youth and the injury not giving him that much playing time. i figured it was just to have him wet his beak, but because of his injury i could see why winter subbed him out.

ManUtd4ever
10-15-2011, 05:06 PM
I am very pleased with the overall result today. I thought Winter made the right call regarding the starting lineup, formation, and substitutes. Our starting lineup should be reasonably healthy, well rested, and confident going into the crucial matchup in Dallas on Tuesday.

Auzzy
10-15-2011, 05:07 PM
I couldn't believe how we were still controlling the play for good stretches near the end, even had some chances.

__wowza
10-15-2011, 05:08 PM
I am very pleased with the overall result today. I thought Winter made the right call regarding the starting lineup, formation, and substitutes. Our starting lineup should be reasonably healthy, well rested, and confident going into the crucial matchup in Dallas in Tuesday.

when im thinking tactical in the next rate winter thread, im thinking this exact point.

Island Man
10-15-2011, 05:09 PM
Well played Winter, made the perfect changes. Happy with the result.

Rhapido
10-15-2011, 05:09 PM
I thought Iro had one of his better games today.

brad
10-15-2011, 05:10 PM
I blame Kocic not Harden on the goal. Kocic put Harden under pressure with a terrible pass. Iro had a good game from what I saw.

Brocko
10-15-2011, 05:10 PM
I am very pleased with the overall result today. I thought Winter made the right call regarding the starting lineup, formation, and substitutes. Our starting lineup should be reasonably healthy, well rested, and confident going into the crucial matchup in Dallas on Tuesday.

Very happy with Winter's moves. Resting Kouvermans and JDG...subbing out Frings and Plata, were all key moves looking ahead to FCD. We should be well rested for Tuesday...Can't fucking wait for the most important;) game in club history;)

ManUtd4ever
10-15-2011, 05:11 PM
I thought Iro had one of his better games today.

Agreed.

AlanO
10-15-2011, 05:11 PM
This match really highlights the improvements made over the last 3-4 months. Especially Winter's maturity as a coach.

Rhapido
10-15-2011, 05:13 PM
They might have won it late, had Zavarise made any attempt to get Avila's attention on that 3 man rush late in the game.

Couchy81
10-15-2011, 05:15 PM
I now have 100% faith in Winter going on from this point forward.

Our team is really shaping up.

Detroit_TFC
10-15-2011, 05:19 PM
Very respectable result vs an in-form team in front of a hostile crowd.

Usually when we go behind we falter but not today. It was a solid game.

ManUtd4ever
10-15-2011, 05:20 PM
This match really highlights the improvements made over the last 3-4 months. Especially Winter's maturity as a coach.

Absolutely. It took a while, but the starters and the reserves seem to have grasped their roles in the 4-3-3 and 3-4-3 formations. TFC has undoubtedly been far more composed on the pitch over the last few months.

jazzy
10-15-2011, 05:26 PM
and the composed play definitely seems to be coming from our youth...THAT in itself is the new mgmt's input.....onward and upward

denime
10-15-2011, 05:43 PM
I blame Kocic not Harden on the goal. Kocic put Harden under pressure with a terrible pass. Iro had a good game from what I saw.

Under pressure? check the highlights and you will see that closest player to Harden was some 15 meters away from him,if that is a pressure than we have a serious problem. All Harden had to do is let the ball roll out,Frings dropped back in the penalty box ,instead of challenging the shot.

Goal was scored after 3 individual mistakes,not one.

Other than that,team performed well,Winter rested players,bring on Dallas.

mowe
10-15-2011, 05:46 PM
Only saw the highlights, but very pleased with Winter's lineup/subs. Handled it perfectly in my opinion.

We're heading into the biggest game of the season in pretty good shape. Of course that doesn't mean much, but should help with the confidence.

TFC USA
10-15-2011, 06:03 PM
Fuck it this will be a playoff caliber team next year.

A.J
10-15-2011, 06:32 PM
WTF? I thought the game was at 7:30 :(

__wowza
10-15-2011, 06:37 PM
Fuck it this will be a playoff caliber team next year.

it is and it isnt. we need ecks and plata signed on.
the offseason issue is, we're growing but so are the rest of the teams in the league. we need to stay one step ahead of them and thats where our youth comes in.

TFC USA
10-15-2011, 06:41 PM
it is and it isnt. we need ecks and plata signed on.
the offseason issue is, we're growing but so are the rest of the teams in the league. we need to stay one step ahead of them and thats where our youth comes in.

I just want something to hang onto.

Philly is in the playoffs in year 2. Portland is out but theyll probably be in next season. Seattle is in it every year.

Basically we're by far the worst managed team in the history of MLS. But things are looking up for once. Usually in past seasons we fuck up the end of the season.

starter
10-15-2011, 06:49 PM
I keep hearing that Frings should have challenged the ball -- his first priority was to prevent breakaway, in his situation shot from outside the box was the best he could get, unfortunately for us that was a hell of a shot, and Kocic did not see the strike itself. After Frings left, we lost a bit of composure, but still a respectable game, the team seems to be jelling, and Iro was a beast. Underwhelmed by Davies, but he had no playing time in a while, and I trust Winter to judge him better.

Heart of Stone
10-15-2011, 07:17 PM
Ryan Johnson was one of the best pick-ups TFC ever made... I think he'll stick around for a few years... great 'MLS' player... we got him for not very much...

ag futbol
10-15-2011, 07:25 PM
it is and it isnt. we need ecks and plata signed on.
the offseason issue is, we're growing but so are the rest of the teams in the league. we need to stay one step ahead of them and thats where our youth comes in.
I don't think this is as critical as people are making it out to be. They're both good players but neither is such a quality that we can't find someone similar out there if we do our homework right. I'd compare it to RSL losing Movsisyan and then signing Saborio, but not quite at that level.

Good game, I wasn't expecting anything coming in and to tie on account of some mental errors that lead to the Union's only goal is a bonus. Looks like Winter is betting on the Canadian kids providing depth and that's a welcome changed from the marginal career MLS guys we get for the same price.

PopePouri
10-15-2011, 07:48 PM
Morgan was a beast again.

I'm surprised Winter didn't move Stinson to RB but what do I know. Decent result.

ensco
10-15-2011, 08:00 PM
OK I only saw Game in Six, so we rested guys, and I'm glad we didn't get killed....but it seemed like the good chances ran about 7-1 for Philly, and Kocic was huge.

So those are good positives for Tuesday, but as a leading indicator on being competitive in 2012, doesn't seem like it says much.

spe18
10-15-2011, 09:02 PM
I just want something to hang onto.

Philly is in the playoffs in year 2. Portland is out but theyll probably be in next season. Seattle is in it every year.

Basically we're by far the worst managed team in the history of MLS. But things are looking up for once. Usually in past seasons we fuck up the end of the season.

Proof :) :facepalm: :flare::picard::lurk5:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MLS_club_post-season_droughts

Auzzy
10-15-2011, 09:52 PM
OK I only saw Game in Six, so we rested guys, and I'm glad we didn't get killed....but it seemed like the good chances ran about 7-1 for Philly, and Kocic was huge.

So those are good positives for Tuesday, but as a leading indicator on being competitive in 2012, doesn't seem like it says much.

I watched the full game, and the highlights just now. The game wasn't nearly as lopsided as the highlights would suggest. TFC had lots of useful possession in Philly's half. They also didn't fall bank & bunker towards the end of the game, as they often have. Stats are fairly even:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2011-10-15-philadelphia-union-vs-toronto-fc/stats

Philadelphia was in close a bit more often, so yes Kocic needed to do well. Anyway, I wouldn't see this one game as a "leading indicator" of anything. TFC, already eliminated from play-off contention, with a crucial game 3 days away, rested lots of important players, but still did very well & showed good spirit -- and yes our defence is still weak.

The 2nd half of the season is more of a useful indicator for me -- although the D is still not good enough as mentioned, and the team is still quite inconsistent despite doing better on average.

EDIT: I don't know WTF that link was I posted before, somebody had posted that to Facebook :facepalm: -- must have had it in my clipboard when I meant to post the link to the MLS stats page.... :o I fixed it now.

ensco
10-15-2011, 10:24 PM
^OK thanks. That all makes sense.

GuelphStorm2007
10-15-2011, 10:26 PM
I only saw the Game in Six and it did seem like Philly had a majority of Possesion and chances, But according to many who watched the full game Toronto put in a solid road effort so I will go with that. I am optimistic about Next years prospects I think they have to sort out the backline, If that happens I think we may have a Play off team here next year. But let's concentrate on Tuesday first, A victory will do wonders for this organisation and of course for the very dedicated, and somewat frustrated fans of this club, like myself. Fingers Crossed.

Auzzy
10-15-2011, 10:37 PM
Here's the link to the MLS stats for the game:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2011-10-15-philadelphia-union-vs-toronto-fc/stats

The Chalkboard page is always interesting as well.

Canary10
10-15-2011, 10:46 PM
We drew on the road against a top team in our conference who was desperate for a win, playing a lot of our reserves. That's a great result ahead of our biggest game evah.

TFCREDNWHITE
10-15-2011, 11:24 PM
So did we play a game Aron Winter is trying to bring here?

Philly, had more possession, more crosses and more passes....

__wowza
10-15-2011, 11:38 PM
I don't think this is as critical as people are making it out to be. They're both good players but neither is such a quality that we can't find someone similar out there if we do our homework right.

im just salivating at the lindsay/plata prospect. them whipping balls into the box with koevermans poaching the shit outt've them. i dont know, i dont know of one MLS RB id take over ecks at the moment.

we could easily lose both of them, but ive liked what ive seen so much that i wouldnt want to, ya know? keep in mind both have had brain farts (ecks getting himself yellow'd during the CCL to miss a game, plata being sometimes predicatable) but im drunk so.. wait, where was i going on this?

Auzzy
10-15-2011, 11:44 PM
So did we play a game Aron Winter is trying to bring here?

Philly, had more possession, more crosses and more passes....

Possession was 52% vs 48%, that's statistically pretty insignificant. Comparing the line-ups & relative importance of the game for both teams, TFC put in a decent show. All of that against a team that's tied for first place in the East. If you watched the whole game -- yes we're alot closer to how Winter wants to play. Lot's of possession by TFC in Philly's half; controlling the ball & attacking instead of sitting back; lots of passing on the ground, etc.

TFCwestcan
10-16-2011, 12:23 AM
Iro made numerous blocks his best game as a TFC player that I have seen. Henry on the other hand looked out of position nervous and very much a reserve player. I agree with the poster Morgan & Avila were excellent. Despite the fact that we are out of the play-offs there is a decent team here that will be so much better next year. Unlike hopeful thinking in previous years we are seeing the evidence right now.

Pookie
10-16-2011, 07:12 AM
Basically we're by far the worst managed team in the history of MLS. But things are looking up for once. Usually in past seasons we fuck up the end of the season.

Shepard's Pie

Ingredients

Potato Topping
6 medium Yukon gold potatoes, scrubbed
Coarse salt and freshly cracked black pepper, to taste
1/4 cup half and half cream (60 ml)
1 tablespoon butter (15 ml)
Pinch freshly grated nutmeg
Salt and pepper

Meat Filling
1 tablespoon butter (15 ml)
2 pounds ground beef
2 small onions, finely chopped
2 cloves garlic, chopped
2 stalks celery, finely diced
2 carrots, finely diced
2 teaspoons fresh chopped thyme (10 ml)
1 teaspoon dried oregano (5 ml)
Pinch ground cloves
1 cup beef stock (250 ml)
1 tablespoon Worcestershire sauce (15 ml)
1 tablespoon Dijon mustard (15 ml)
Coarse salt and freshly cracked black pepper

Directions

Potato Topping
Preheat oven to 375 degrees F.
Put potatoes into a roasting pan and bake for about 50 minutes to 1 hour, until easily pierced with a fork. Remove from oven, peel and put into a large bowl. Mash potatoes and add butter, cream, nutmeg, and salt and pepper. Stir with wooden spoon until blended. Adjust seasoning.

Meat Filling
Put butter into a large deep skillet over medium heat. Add the onions and sauté until softened. Add garlic and continue to sauté for 3 minutes.
Add meat, breaking it apart and stirring until it’s browned.
Add the celery, carrots, thyme, oregano and cloves and season with salt and pepper.
Continue to cook over high heat until carrots begin to soften.
red wine and stock into pan and then add the Worcestershire and Dijon. Bring to a boil and then reduce heat to low.
Season the mixture with salt and pepper and simmer covered, until meat is tender and moisture is absorbed, about 20 minutes.
Put meat mixture into a rectangular baking dish (about 7 ˝-inches x 11 ˝-inches and at least 3-inches deep). Spread the mashed potatoes over top and bake until top is golden and meat filling is bubbling, about 25 to 30 minutes.

Petor
10-16-2011, 07:37 AM
Shepard's Pie

Ingredients

Potato Topping
6 medium Yukon gold potatoes, scrubbed
Coarse salt and freshly cracked black pepper, to taste
1/4 cup half and half cream (60 ml)
1 tablespoon butter (15 ml)
Pinch freshly grated nutmeg
Salt and pepper

Meat Filling
1 tablespoon butter (15 ml)
2 pounds ground beef
2 small onions, finely chopped
2 cloves garlic, chopped
2 stalks celery, finely diced
2 carrots, finely diced
2 teaspoons fresh chopped thyme (10 ml)
1 teaspoon dried oregano (5 ml)
Pinch ground cloves
1 cup beef stock (250 ml)
1 tablespoon Worcestershire sauce (15 ml)
1 tablespoon Dijon mustard (15 ml)
Coarse salt and freshly cracked black pepper

Directions

Potato Topping
Preheat oven to 375 degrees F.
Put potatoes into a roasting pan and bake for about 50 minutes to 1 hour, until easily pierced with a fork. Remove from oven, peel and put into a large bowl. Mash potatoes and add butter, cream, nutmeg, and salt and pepper. Stir with wooden spoon until blended. Adjust seasoning.

Meat Filling
Put butter into a large deep skillet over medium heat. Add the onions and sauté until softened. Add garlic and continue to sauté for 3 minutes.
Add meat, breaking it apart and stirring until it’s browned.
Add the celery, carrots, thyme, oregano and cloves and season with salt and pepper.
Continue to cook over high heat until carrots begin to soften.
red wine and stock into pan and then add the Worcestershire and Dijon. Bring to a boil and then reduce heat to low.
Season the mixture with salt and pepper and simmer covered, until meat is tender and moisture is absorbed, about 20 minutes.
Put meat mixture into a rectangular baking dish (about 7 ˝-inches x 11 ˝-inches and at least 3-inches deep). Spread the mashed potatoes over top and bake until top is golden and meat filling is bubbling, about 25 to 30 minutes.

Celery in the meat fillng?
Are you insane?

SKB
10-16-2011, 07:53 AM
I did a quick calculation of life before and after Frings/Kovermann. However, there were many other changes made so let's say new vs old team. In the last 10 league games TFC have 14 points which would put us on track for a 47 pt season. That would put us at close to the top of the eastern conference and definitely in the playoffs. TFC only had 2 losses over that span and had a goal differential of -1. Compare that to the -22 GD over the first 20+ games. Also of note is that in the last 10 games 6 were away games. What I was so impressed with last night is that we rested a number of our top players against one of the better teams in the league and still got a result. We have much better team and much depth.

ManUtd4ever
10-16-2011, 08:12 AM
I did a quick calculation of life before and after Frings/Kovermann. However, there were many other changes made so let's say new vs old team. In the last 10 league games TFC have 14 points which would put us on track for a 47 pt season. That would put us at close to the top of the eastern conference and definitely in the playoffs. TFC only had 2 losses over that span and had a goal differential of -1. Compare that to the -22 GD over the first 20+ games. Also of note is that in the last 10 games 6 were away games. What I was so impressed with last night is that we rested a number of our top players against one of the better teams in the league and still got a result. We have much better team and much depth.

Well said. I agree that TFC, as it's currently constructed, is a playoff calibre club. If one takes into consideration that the successful run in the final third of the season was achieved without our top two starting centre backs, the prospects for next season definitely seem encouraging.

J .
10-16-2011, 08:50 AM
Decent tie, the team played ok. I think people are reaching if they are confirming its already a playoff side.

I get the need for optimism but we are setting pretty low expectations of what it takes to be a playoff side.

Shakes McQueen
10-16-2011, 09:12 AM
Decent tie, the team played ok. I think people are reaching if they are confirming its already a playoff side.

I get the need for optimism but we are setting pretty low expectations of what it takes to be a playoff side.

I agree with your first sentence, though not sure if I agree with your second one.

I think we've got most of the tools right now to be a solid playoff team next year, however, I also think it's optimistic reaching to say we are clearly a playoff team.

Our defense is still far too inconsistent on a week-to-week basis, and we still lack important depth at a few positions - losing guys like Frings or Koevermans for a week, substantially changes the complexion of our side. This cannot be the case, if we want to prove our playoff mettle over an entire season, instead of 2-3 months.

- Scott

torontocelt
10-16-2011, 09:16 AM
Decent tie, the team played ok. I think people are reaching if they are confirming its already a playoff side.

I get the need for optimism but we are setting pretty low expectations of what it takes to be a playoff side.

Agreed, call yourself a play off side when you actually make the play offs.

ManUtd4ever
10-16-2011, 09:53 AM
Decent tie, the team played ok. I think people are reaching if they are confirming its already a playoff side.

I get the need for optimism but we are setting pretty low expectations of what it takes to be a playoff side.

If you consider the current standings in the Eastern Conference, and project TFC's results with the current roster over the course of an entire season, it is entirely reasonable to suggest that TFC is a playoff calibre club.

If TFC aspires to be anything more than a club fighting for a playoff spot next season, I agree that the roster is in need of further reinforcements, specifically on the backline.

Of course, there are variables that factor into the equation such as the health of key players and so forth, but that applies to every club in the league.

Waggy
10-16-2011, 10:05 AM
The past two times we've played the table leader in the East we've gotten points. On the road. I'd say that's a pretty good sign for optimism heading into next year.

brad
10-16-2011, 11:08 AM
Of course, there are variables that factor into equation such as the health of key players and so forth, but that applies to every club in the league.

Including us - this season. I can't help but wonder what our results woul look like since the transfer window if our 2 first choice CB's were not out for the season.

LesH
10-16-2011, 12:11 PM
... A victory will do wonders for this organisation and of course for the very dedicated, and somewat frustrated fans of this club, like myself. Fingers Crossed.

Just somewhat frustrated after 5 years of subpar results?
Every sports team in the world would die to have fans just like that! :D

J .
10-16-2011, 04:54 PM
This seems similar to prior seasons in that we are putting rose coloured lenses on a situation where its not really warranted. After each year we could look at the side and say they should be a playoff side and each year they haven't. So Im not going to go that route until the team truly is in contention for the playoff mix.

I think theres more to it than just our defense. We do not have a dominant winger or AM. Plata is good, but not great. Soolsma the same. Aside from Koevermans, is Johnson the answer? Johnston was missing in action last night until he scored. Avila is ok sometimes, sometimes he's pretty absent. Moreover, they are not goal scorers.

We have allowed the most goals and scored the least. We have some of the most horrific blowouts Ive seen in football in one year. Yes, we have played better but this is still a team that usually gives up more possession and chances.

Dont get me wrong, we have some real good youth coming up, two capable keepers, two DPs worth their wage and lets be honest with some of the efforts the team puts in at home it is a wonder they are not booed off the pitch. TFC, for all their faults, use to always perform at home.

Regardless, another year without MLS playoffs when you look at an East Division that was weak and had teams like Philly, Houton and SKC take steps forward while we drifted backwards.

ag futbol
10-16-2011, 04:57 PM
im just salivating at the lindsay/plata prospect. them whipping balls into the box with koevermans poaching the shit outt've them. i dont know, i dont know of one MLS RB id take over ecks at the moment.

we could easily lose both of them, but ive liked what ive seen so much that i wouldnt want to, ya know? keep in mind both have had brain farts (ecks getting himself yellow'd during the CCL to miss a game, plata being sometimes predicatable) but im drunk so.. wait, where was i going on this?
Not that I don't agree, but the thing you have to keep in mind is: a lot of guys show up in MLS and after an initial good run of form teams start to watch the tape and break down their tendencies. Even now, you can see teams searching for space behind Eckersley on his flank because he likes to get forward often. This created problems for a few games once it was exposed, but now it's been dialed back a bit.

Anyway, it's worth considering their continued form might not be as good as their initial. I don't expect to see Eckersley catch many defenders off guard the way he did when he first hit the league.

AmherstNY_TFC
10-17-2011, 04:08 PM
I disagree that TFC is the worst managed team in MLS. NY Red Bulls/Metrostars blow anything MLSE has done out of the water.

Oldtimer
10-17-2011, 09:29 PM
I disagree that TFC is the worst managed team in MLS. NY Red Bulls/Metrostars blow anything MLSE has done out of the water.

Absolutely positively.

It's only that some TFC fans don't know the history of the league that they could claim that TFC is the worst-ever managed franchise.

What the NY FO did to totally alienate their supporters, not to mention their horrible record and staff turnover (despite being one of the original MLS clubs, they have never won anything of note, they have had 13 coaches in 14 years!) would make ML$E seem like absolute positive geniuses by comparison.

Oldtimer
10-17-2011, 09:34 PM
Shepard's Pie


That looks good! I'm going to try making that, I think.

menefreghista
10-17-2011, 09:39 PM
Absolutely positively.

It's only that some TFC fans don't know the history of the league that they could claim that TFC is the worst-ever managed franchise.

What the NY FO did to totally alienate their supporters, not to mention their horrible record and staff turnover (despite being one of the original MLS clubs, they have never won anything of note, they have had 13 coaches in 14 years!) would make ML$E seem like absolute positive geniuses by comparison.

That doesn't really excuse MLSE for the way they've fucked this franchise up.

ensco
10-17-2011, 10:34 PM
Wow. People seriously believe that the Metrostars/RedBulls are a worse "all time franchise" than TFC have been.

The supporter stuff really has been terrible in NY, but on field, this argument is absurd.

NY has been in the playoffs 13 out of 16 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Red_Bulls#Year-by-year

In addition to seeing Henry, Angel, Donadoni and Guevara (in his prime!), NY fans have had the pleasure of seeing Tim Howard, Michael Bradley and Jozy Altidore develop. TFC has had Edu for a year and a bit. That's it.

You have to normalize because we're younger, but even when you do, it's not even close.

Roogsy
10-17-2011, 10:49 PM
This seems similar to prior seasons in that we are putting rose coloured lenses on a situation where its not really warranted. After each year we could look at the side and say they should be a playoff side and each year they haven't. So Im not going to go that route until the team truly is in contention for the playoff mix.

I think theres more to it than just our defense. We do not have a dominant winger or AM. Plata is good, but not great. Soolsma the same. Aside from Koevermans, is Johnson the answer? Johnston was missing in action last night until he scored. Avila is ok sometimes, sometimes he's pretty absent. Moreover, they are not goal scorers.

We have allowed the most goals and scored the least. We have some of the most horrific blowouts Ive seen in football in one year. Yes, we have played better but this is still a team that usually gives up more possession and chances.

Dont get me wrong, we have some real good youth coming up, two capable keepers, two DPs worth their wage and lets be honest with some of the efforts the team puts in at home it is a wonder they are not booed off the pitch. TFC, for all their faults, use to always perform at home.

Regardless, another year without MLS playoffs when you look at an East Division that was weak and had teams like Philly, Houton and SKC take steps forward while we drifted backwards.

This is pretty close to how I feel. I know people are giddy about this team as it looks right now, but I don't see much else than a team that has improved from absolute shit to a mediocre level with no bullets left in the chamber. I figure next year we won't be embarrassingly bad and that seems to make some happy. To each their own.

The NY argument seems more of a rationalization. In every measurable way, TFC has been the worst franchise in MLS history.