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View Full Version : Postgame Chivas - TFC: ... So why we even bothered to show up in California?



LesH
09-24-2011, 11:43 PM
CHIVAS USA - TFC 0-3

Discuss.

reggie
09-24-2011, 11:45 PM
we sucked large tonight

reggie
09-24-2011, 11:53 PM
another season another 2k down the toilet

reggie
09-24-2011, 11:56 PM
this team is so bad,i think im talking to myself

flatpicker
09-24-2011, 11:57 PM
Here's the way I see it...

Toronto is still a team going through changes, and growing pains.
They are also a team with some serious weakness, and serious strengths.
As a result, it's very hard to predict which team will show up on game day.

This is also why I think that if Winter can make a couple smart moves in the off season,
We will be seeing a TFC side in 2012 that will one of the most competitive in the league.

(notice the lack of a winky-face or a "j/k" at the end of my post)

Ricky_Portugal
09-25-2011, 12:10 AM
Off topic I know but How much does bmo charge for name and number on the jerseys

TFCRegina
09-25-2011, 12:29 AM
I'd be trolling Vancouver right now, but TFC hasn't given me anything to stand on tonight. :(

MG42
09-25-2011, 12:33 AM
I would have liked to have heard the conversation Winter had with Labrocca after the game

dupont
09-25-2011, 01:21 AM
That wasn't that unexpected for a road game. Everything that matters in on Tuesday.

__wowza
09-25-2011, 01:39 AM
yeah, it was for me dupont.
look at who we dressed tonight, look at who we'd want dressed for tuesday..

Keystone FC
09-25-2011, 03:19 AM
Here's the way I see it...

Toronto is still a team going through changes, and growing pains.
They are also a team with some serious weakness, and serious strengths.
As a result, it's very hard to predict which team will show up on game day.

This is also why I think that if Winter can make a couple smart moves in the off season,
We will be seeing a TFC side in 2012 that will one of the most competitive in the league.

(notice the lack of a winky-face or a "j/k" at the end of my post)
This is also how I saw the match (well the highlights) tonight. The regular season is DONE for us, but looking at what we have right now and what we might have come next season makes me actually hopeful for 2012. Winter has brought in talent that actually can play and we all know (including Winter) what we need to do in the off season to improve. If we can retain the good and bring in a new backline (let's keep Ecks...I like him) TFC looks to be a force to deal with in the East and the league next season.

Ossington Mental Youth
09-25-2011, 03:51 AM
no surprise, we've had some great games this year which have shaded the fact its a transition year. Obviously would love to have seen us win, not surprised we didnt. Hurts some people to hear but we are playing for next year and next year WILL be different.

[NBF]
09-25-2011, 04:55 AM
Wow, hardly anyone wanted to post in this thread. I think everyone gave up early.

I THINK THE BIG QUESTION IS: Who was Ryan Johnson screaming to when he said," I'm not hearing you, I can't hear you!"?

It looked like he snapped at either Avila, Dunsfield, or Morgan, but I heard someone screaming at Johnson telling him where to go during the throw-in and then he snapped.

PopePouri
09-25-2011, 06:25 AM
Rough game. The way I see it is that every MLS team besides TFC in the CCL lost last week and most bounced back in the league. If we are the opposite, I'm good with that.

trane
09-25-2011, 07:36 AM
Playing you starters in a meaningless game, was poor decision, and if we are not competitive on Tuesday, winter will have to take the blame.

I already read batman" analyses" and I have to really start wondering if this city and country is ready. We are just too ready with excuses. The bottom line we are in year five.

For me this last two cl games will be make them or brake it terms of my trust for the new leadership. I was just so disappointed that he started our best players.

Having said that I hope we fill the stadium for the pumas game.

TorontoPat
09-25-2011, 08:02 AM
The result shouldn't have been unexpected. Most of us wanted the team to rest. Sure our best guys played, but they did so at half speed. No big deal as far as I'm concerned. Glad it was an away game.

As for the OP's question, why did we showup? League rules said we had to.

Waggy
09-25-2011, 08:02 AM
Playing you starters in a meaningless game, was poor decision, and if we are not competitive on Tuesday, winter will have to take the blame.

I already read batman" analyses" and I have to really start wondering if this city and country is ready. We are just too ready with excuses. The bottom line we are in year five.

For me this last two cl games will be make them or brake it terms of my trust for the new leadership. I was just so disappointed that he started our best players.

Having said that I hope we fill the stadium for the pumas game.

Admitting that this was a bad team last year, and a bad team to start this year is an excuse? We clearly didn't (and still don't) have the talent level or depth that a mid to top level MLS club does. Sometimes we'll play well and win, sometimes we won't. Acknowledging that is making an excuse? The team has to improve both the overall talent level and the depth of the club in the offseason. Every move Winter and Mariner have made thus far indicates they will. And that they'll be successful at it. The team today is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the team those two inherited.

Semi related: I have a hunch we're going to spend mad cash this winter, assuming MLSE gets sold in December. The new owner will want to make a splash right away, and it's tough to do that mid season in the NHL or mid lockout in the NBA.

TorontoGooner
09-25-2011, 08:03 AM
Poor showing, but I'm sure the players had one eye on Tuesday night

JuliquE
09-25-2011, 08:11 AM
;1383136']Wow, hardly anyone wanted to post in this thread. I think everyone gave up early.

I THINK THE BIG QUESTION IS: Who was Ryan Johnson screaming to when he said," I'm not hearing you, I can't hear you!"?

It looked like he snapped at either Avila, Dunsfield, or Morgan, but I heard someone screaming at Johnson telling him where to go during the throw-in and then he snapped.
If my memory serves me, I recall him saying something to the effect of, "I can fucking see him/it. I don't need to hear you -- I don't!"

*sigh*

TFC07
09-25-2011, 08:40 AM
;1383136']Wow, hardly anyone wanted to post in this thread. I think everyone gave up early.

I THINK THE BIG QUESTION IS: Who was Ryan Johnson screaming to when he said," I'm not hearing you, I can't hear you!"?

It looked like he snapped at either Avila, Dunsfield, or Morgan, but I heard someone screaming at Johnson telling him where to go during the throw-in and then he snapped.

I think it was Dunfield he was yelling at.

Batman
09-25-2011, 08:43 AM
Playing you starters in a meaningless game, was poor decision, and if we are not competitive on Tuesday, winter will have to take the blame.

I already read batman" analyses" and I have to really start wondering if this city and country is ready. We are just too ready with excuses. The bottom line we are in year five.

For me this last two cl games will be make them or brake it terms of my trust for the new leadership. I was just so disappointed that he started our best players.

Having said that I hope we fill the stadium for the pumas game.

I dont understand what you're saying. My point, pure and simple was THE CURRENT TEAM is playing at a lot better rate after those two guys arrived than before.

And IF we played at that same rate next year for the full season, we'd do well.

In what way was I making an excuse?

rocker
09-25-2011, 09:10 AM
I still don't understand the reasoning behind playing all the starters in a meaningless road game when a massive home game looms a few days later. Winter even talks in the game reports about how his team looked flat and tired. Having rest is important and I don't think fans recognize how strong this factor is.

But I can't fault Winter alone, because there were a lot of fans (and bloggers ;) calling for a #1 lineup in this game too, saying that to develop a "winning mentality" we must play our starters in these games. Well, I don't think losing 3-0 with your tired starters is going to help develop a "winning mentality." For all we know, the academy kids and reserves might have gone out there with fresh legs and played their hearts out and lost only 2-0 ;)

I don't see how they're going to feel any more rested for Tuesday in what is a MUCH more important game than a road match against Chivas when we're basically out of the playoffs. I just hope they can put that tiredness to the back of their minds and put in a top effort no matter how they feel... or Pumas comes in really tired too....

reggie
09-25-2011, 09:24 AM
yes..im going to say it,how would dero look on this club now with danny k and frings.
worst trade in history..dero for iro and a 1st round pick.omg

flatpicker
09-25-2011, 09:32 AM
yes..im going to say it,how would dero look on this club now with danny k and frings.
worst trade in history..dero for iro and a 1st round pick.omg

I'd like to know how we would fit 4 DP's on the team.

It would likely mean not getting either Koevs or Frings, since getting rid of DeGuz would have been tricky.

Koevs goal scoring rate is great since arriving.
And I'd rather have Frings in the mid than Dero.

Not saying DeRo isn't a good player, but I like what we have.
I think we have a better team mentality at the moment than we have had in a long long time.

Waggy
09-25-2011, 09:35 AM
People keep talking like not trading Dero was an option. It wasn't. All sides had said the situation was untenable and they were staying apart until a deal was made that got Dero to a new team or DP status (which was NEVER going to happen for a number of reasons, including that MLS wouldn't allow it). That we got anything for him was impressive. To suggest we had an option to keep Dero is revisionist as hell

maninb
09-25-2011, 09:40 AM
People keep talking like not trading Dero was an option. It wasn't. All sides had said the situation was untenable and they were staying apart until a deal was made that got Dero to a new team or DP status (which was NEVER going to happen for a number of reasons, including that MLS wouldn't allow it). That we got anything for him was impressive. To suggest we had an option to keep Dero is revisionist as hell

EXACTLY!! MeRo wanted out and the longer he stayed the more of a cancer he would have become....

Couchy81
09-25-2011, 10:04 AM
I only managed to catch the 2nd half, poor showing. I too would have liked for the kids/reserves to play this match to rest our starters for the Pumas match. A tired Koevs will not score goals unless he gets perfect service =/

trane
09-25-2011, 11:02 AM
I dont understand what you're saying. My point, pure and simple was THE CURRENT TEAM is playing at a lot better rate after those two guys arrived than before.

And IF we played at that same rate next year for the full season, we'd do well.

In what way was I making an excuse?


I actually agree that we should be better next year, and we have been better since
since the DPs came on.

But after last nights game, looking forward to our next very important game, the only thing of significance was that our starters got tiered in a meaningless game. And I am not sure that lossing 3-0 is the confidence buster we need going into the cl game. This is what I was expecting to be the focus, the result yesterday is meaningless otherwise.

DangerRed
09-25-2011, 11:06 AM
I, for quite some time, have been saying Winter is a poor coach who makes bad decisions. I got shouted down every single time. Now you tell me: does a good coach jeopardize your CCL chances, slim as they are, at the expense of a meaningless AWAY league game? Do you play your starters in a nothing game when a BIG game is three days away?

Bad coaching. Real bad.

But never mind, I'm just a lone negative ranter. Back to your cheerleading, please. We're improving, right?

trane
09-25-2011, 11:08 AM
What we will need against Pumas is organization, effort and work rate. Having a tiered squad is not a positive for any of those things, we will not beat Pumas on skill.

People were saying that if we played 10 behind the ball in our next game, that was giving up. Well this is closer to giving up. The club needs to try to achieve something to grow. The cl is the opportunity.

Canary10
09-25-2011, 11:13 AM
Not sure why everyone has the assumption that playing one game automatically makes you tired the next game.

Detroit_TFC
09-25-2011, 11:22 AM
Going into last night I very much wanted Winter to rest the likely starters vs Pumas. But this morning I realized it doesn't matter. Unless Pumas plays their academy team, we don't have a chance against them.

Canary10
09-25-2011, 11:29 AM
That may be true...

The fact that Frings is out is more imprtant to any chance we have than who started the game before.

starter
09-25-2011, 11:41 AM
Chivas has such comfortable time possessing the ball, patiently waiting for the opportunities, we on the other hand, could not get rid of the ball fast enough. Is that a confidence issue, or half of our best 11 are simply not good on the ball, and should not be starting in MLS?

Detroit_TFC
09-25-2011, 11:42 AM
Watched Pumas v Estudiantes Tecos last night (which they won 2-1 at home) so their starters may be have some fatigue issues of their own.

However, I agree with Canary - it's who we're missing not who played on Sat.

J .
09-25-2011, 12:08 PM
Worst GD in the league. How is that for progress?

J .
09-25-2011, 12:11 PM
Not sure why everyone has the assumption that playing one game automatically makes you tired the next game.


Just part of a long list of excuses apologists are putting together to explain why TFC loses next game, but will quickly forget if TFC hopefully pulls out a result.

I will credit Winter for putting his best lineup out there at least. But I also think it says a lot about the team that it got beat down badly, again, and put its best foot forward, again.

TFC07
09-25-2011, 12:13 PM
Worst GD in the league. How is that for progress?

Who cares! Since midseason signings, we have been winning more games and losing less.

We're making progress here! It's our backline that is letting us down here.

Our mids are okay (but we sure can use an AM) and forwards are good (maybe getting one more striker isn't a bad idea).

MartinUtd
09-25-2011, 12:32 PM
Just watched the highlights. It's pretty clear that we will not be a competitive team until our backline is addressed. Everything until then is just a warm up.

CoachGT
09-25-2011, 01:00 PM
One of the comments I've heard from players from here (Jimmy B, for example) is that European players and coaches generally underestimate the effects of travel here. A long road trip in Europe might be a two hour flight, unless you are from England playing in Russia. Hell, our closest competition here is two hours flight in most cases, and western swings cross several time zones, something that is fairly uncommon to most players coming here from abroad. Danny K has alluded to it a couple of times now - I think that is one thing that does have an effect.

One comment from last night - I really thought Dan Dunleavy was a little bit too homerish for the game, talking about all of the positives when the team was playing ineffectively. Add to that extremely poor camera work and camera positioning (why focus on a player who is sitting on the ground while play is going on???) and last night's broadcast was a D rating at best, if not an outright F! A colour guy would have been a bit better in filling empty space (not that silence always needs to be filled), at least, better than playing homer.

spark
09-25-2011, 01:47 PM
One of the comments I've heard from players from here (Jimmy B, for example) is that European players and coaches generally underestimate the effects of travel here. A long road trip in Europe might be a two hour flight, unless you are from England playing in Russia. Hell, our closest competition here is two hours flight in most cases, and western swings cross several time zones, something that is fairly uncommon to most players coming here from abroad. Danny K has alluded to it a couple of times now - I think that is one thing that does have an effect.

That would make sense in the first month or two but by now if you can't figure out how to deal with travel then someone is missing a few cogs when it comes to pre-game preparation - and that's what a result like this comes down to - somewhere in the build-up of this match the approach whether it be physical or mental, was not right and this is the result you get.

MG42
09-25-2011, 02:17 PM
a two page post game thread after a loss says a lot, back in the day this would have been 20+ pages by now lol

Darlofletch
09-25-2011, 02:18 PM
Not sure why everyone has the assumption that playing one game automatically makes you tired the next game.

It doesn't automatically do it, but if you're already tired, it's not going to help is it. Winter had the balls to complain about fatigue and lack of freshness in his post game interview, how the hell is two cross continent flights and another 90 minutes going to help with that issue for the more important game coming up.

trane
09-25-2011, 09:21 PM
^ WTF???? That really pisses me off. He knows they are fatigued. He complains about it . But he chooses to play them in a meaningless game? He either just does not give a shit about the pumas game, or he just does not get it.

brad
09-25-2011, 10:11 PM
^ WTF???? That really pisses me off. He knows they are fatigued. He complains about it . But he chooses to play them in a meaningless game? He either just does not give a shit about the pumas game, or he just does not get it.

I wonder how much pressure was on him from the suits to do this.

It's renewal time, and a lot of STH's don't care about the CCL, or at least don't rate it anywhere near as high as the league. Heading down to Chivas with reserves while the first team enjoyed a day or two off in Toronto is what I would have liked to have seen - but is suspect this would have pissed off a lot of the fan base.

__wowza
09-25-2011, 10:34 PM
Do you play your starters in a nothing game when a BIG game is three days away?

Bad coaching. Real bad.

But never mind, I'm just a lone negative ranter. Back to your cheerleading, please. We're improving, right?

uggh. i hate how anyone whose trying to look on the bright side at the end of the season gets pigeonholed into being a cheerleader. i'm being optimistic about the team, lord knows it's not easy doing that in toronto. that's my only comment on that.

anyways, im a fan of winter, but i wholeheartedly agree. the starters in a meaningless match? if i see people huffing when we're up against pumas im going to be pissed. didn't even see brads comment, but id like to hope (and hate) that it played a part in it. what better way to show people to keep their tickets going than to keep winning?



i'd like to say that the suits aren't that short sighted, but then again..

ag futbol
09-25-2011, 11:07 PM
Devastating loss given the lineup we fielded.

Before this game, I was starting to come back a little bit with our results but this just knocked me back to where I started: still extremely skeptical about management and the direction of TFC. The plans sound great (don't they always?), heavily doubt the ability of the staff to execute.

Fort York Redcoat
09-26-2011, 06:49 AM
I, for quite some time, have been saying Winter is a poor coach who makes bad decisions. I got shouted down every single time. Now you tell me: does a good coach jeopardize your CCL chances, slim as they are, at the expense of a meaningless AWAY league game? Do you play your starters in a nothing game when a BIG game is three days away?

Bad coaching. Real bad.

But never mind, I'm just a lone negative ranter. Back to your cheerleading, please. We're improving, right?

Excuse me? That would imply that you capitulated your stance every or any time and you have not. Also, if I've ever seen your comments on Winter challenged it's been accompanied by a slew of folks that feel much like yourself.

So instead of simply ranting on others let's move the discussion forward:

We all know that Frings had to play this game because he is ineligible for Tuesday. I'd assume Danny K would be on your "rest them" list. (mine as well) who else???

Technorgasm
09-26-2011, 07:12 AM
took the high hard one in the bad place.

. . . I was too concerned with Strippers and a marathon meat eating session at an amazing Brazilian steak house resto in Montreal to notice.

CONGRATS CNADIAN_BHOY. . . what a fantastic Stag!!!

Red Rat
09-26-2011, 08:13 AM
My Saturday night consisted of watching the Seattle Vancouver derby, great game

Canary10
09-26-2011, 09:26 AM
Excuse me? That would imply that you capitulated your stance every or any time and you have not. Also, if I've ever seen your comments on Winter challenged it's been accompanied by a slew of folks that feel much like yourself.

So instead of simply ranting on others let's move the discussion forward:

We all know that Frings had to play this game because he is ineligible for Tuesday. I'd assume Danny K would be on your "rest them" list. (mine as well) who else???

I would be most concerned about the fitness of the midfield, but if you look at it more closely it's actually well rested. JDG has only played at most half of the last two games. Avila can't play, so he was in Saturday. Marosevic came in toward the end, presumably to get a few touches and some running in in advance of the Pumas game he'll probably start. Stinson will probably be the other starter given Dunfield being out, and he's had a lot of rest. Rumour is Plata will get the start tomorrow, which explains why one of Johnson and Soolsma started. Ekcs and Morgan are young enough that they should be able to play every game and run their asses off.

Don't know why everyone is making such a big issue over rest. Bigger issue is loss of Frings.

TFC07
09-26-2011, 11:23 AM
I wonder how much pressure was on him from the suits to do this.

It's renewal time, and a lot of STH's don't care about the CCL, or at least don't rate it anywhere near as high as the league. Heading down to Chivas with reserves while the first team enjoyed a day or two off in Toronto is what I would have liked to have seen - but is suspect this would have pissed off a lot of the fan base.

Don't forget MLS and couple of MLS teams fighting for a playoff spot would have been pissed as well if TFC didn't bring their first team.

T-boy
09-26-2011, 11:29 AM
Don't forget MLS and couple of MLS teams fighting for a playoff spot would have been pissed as well if TFC didn't bring their first team.

Who cares about other teams?! Honestly!

TFC have their biggest game of the season tomorrow, and Winter plays his whole first team in a game where we had very little chance of winning, on the other side of the continent! I honestly don't understand him doing this?!

TFC have a HUGE roster of players available, and we NEED to start planning for next season. It was time to play the squad players on Saturday and see who cuts it. The rest of the league games are basically all trials to see who TFC should keep for next season. It's time to see the Matt Golds, Omphroys, and Martina's, and see them step up to the plate.

Winter may well have messed up TFC's chances of winning on Tuesday night by playing his first 11 last weekend. :(

Oblio2
09-26-2011, 11:33 AM
Here's the way I see it...

Toronto is still a team going through changes, and growing pains.
They are also a team with some serious weakness, and serious strengths.
As a result, it's very hard to predict which team will show up on game day.





Which season is this for? You could use it for all of them, I guess.....May as well save it for next year too :)

trane
09-26-2011, 02:24 PM
Who cares about other teams?! Honestly!

TFC have their biggest game of the season tomorrow, and Winter plays his whole first team in a game where we had very little chance of winning, on the other side of the continent! I honestly don't understand him doing this?!

TFC have a HUGE roster of players available, and we NEED to start planning for next season. It was time to play the squad players on Saturday and see who cuts it. The rest of the league games are basically all trials to see who TFC should keep for next season. It's time to see the Matt Golds, Omphroys, and Martina's, and see them step up to the plate.

Winter may well have messed up TFC's chances of winning on Tuesday night by playing his first 11 last weekend. :(

Exactly. The flip side of resting the starting 11 is also a positive, as you say we need to see our depth and younger player, we need to evaluate them, it was a missed opportunity.

Shakes McQueen
09-26-2011, 08:03 PM
Our defence lets us down again. It continues to be the Achilles' heel of a team that I think is otherwise looking better and better. It needs to be addressed this winter. It's an absolute must.

- Scott

ag futbol
09-26-2011, 10:12 PM
I hate to knit pick, but Iro on that third goal ... just wow. I would yell at house league players for closing out a forward like that. He was just asking to get turned and rightfully got embarrassed.

TFC USA
09-26-2011, 10:13 PM
Only team in the league to concede 50 or more goals.

And offensively we're 2nd worst in MLS.

CSO_BBTB
09-27-2011, 04:14 AM
...TFC have their biggest game of the season tomorrow, and Winter plays his whole first team in a game where we had very little chance of winning, on the other side of the continent! I honestly don't understand him doing this?!

Biggest game for you but have you not noticed the acres of empty seats during most CCL home games? For most of the fanbase the MLS regular season is what matters and these extra midweek games barely even register. Even with only a faint glimmer of hope of getting a playoff spot the effort had to appear to be made to try to win the Chivas game. As for CCL qualification with Frings out and a top Mexican team who won the away game 4-0 to be played it seems a bit of a long shot to me. Stranger things have happened though and maybe using a few players who still have something to prove in terms of getting contracts renewed won't do any harm.

Shakes McQueen
09-27-2011, 06:52 AM
Only team in the league to concede 50 or more goals.

And offensively we're 2nd worst in MLS.

Certainly not statistics to be proud of, but looking at season-wide stats is kind of useless in determining the growth of this team. We will have played around half the season with a new group of players, by the time the books is closed on this campaign.

So yeah - embarrassing stats for Toronto FC, but kind of useless in qualitatively evaluating our roster at this point.

- Scott

trane
09-27-2011, 09:05 AM
Biggest game for you but have you not noticed the acres of empty seats during most CCL home games? For most of the fanbase the MLS regular season is what matters and these extra midweek games barely even register. Even with only a faint glimmer of hope of getting a playoff spot the effort had to appear to be made to try to win the Chivas game. As for CCL qualification with Frings out and a top Mexican team who won the away game 4-0 to be played it seems a bit of a long shot to me. Stranger things have happened though and maybe using a few players who still have something to prove in terms of getting contracts renewed won't do any harm.


Our top 11 hardly have what it takes to compete with Pumas, never mind our depth and youth. Particullalry if winter continues to play a wide open version of the 4-3-3, instead of making it look like 4-1-4-1 as is needed against a superior oponent.

T-boy
09-27-2011, 09:09 AM
Biggest game for you but have you not noticed the acres of empty seats during most CCL home games? For most of the fanbase the MLS regular season is what matters and these extra midweek games barely even register. Even with only a faint glimmer of hope of getting a playoff spot the effort had to appear to be made to try to win the Chivas game. As for CCL qualification with Frings out and a top Mexican team who won the away game 4-0 to be played it seems a bit of a long shot to me. Stranger things have happened though and maybe using a few players who still have something to prove in terms of getting contracts renewed won't do any harm.

The empty seats are because these games weren't included in the season ticket package. That doesn't mean the CCL isn't more important! It just indicates that the general public aren't buying tickets to TFC matches, and really, who would blame them?! There are plenty of good value for money entertainments in this city that the casual soccer fan would rahter go pay money for! But for TFC's history, the game tonight is undoubtedly the most important game left this season!

trane
09-27-2011, 09:14 AM
^Exactly. Winning games like tonight, and getting further in the CL is how the clubs history is made, not some meaningless game in suburban LA.

CSO_BBTB
09-27-2011, 09:36 AM
The empty seats are because these games weren't included in the season ticket package....

From what I remember they were originally but were dropped because of the effect that was having on the renewal rate. Think I got a refund from them because of that but been a while. There is a hardcore who see the CCL as the big prize but most people don't treat it like a UEFA Champions League game would be over in Europe. It's going to take time for that culture to develop. Winter and TFC management have to cater to the silent majority as well as the tiny noisy minority, who post on boards like this.

T-boy
09-27-2011, 10:02 AM
From what I remember they were originally but were dropped because of the effect that was having on the renewal rate. Think I got a refund from them because of that but been a while. There is a hardcore who see the CCL as the big prize but most people don't treat it like a UEFA Champions League game would be over in Europe. It's going to take time for that culture to develop. Winter and TFC management have to cater to the silent majority as well as the tiny noisy minority, who post on boards like this.

Agreed.

BUT....as we are still talking about the Chivas game: The silent minority don't give a flying poop about away games. Even most of the Toronto media don't report on it any more. So, I'm still at a loss to why Winter would play the best starting 11 at Chivas?!

If this was a home game...for sure, play your best team so the silence minority can have a "better chance" of seeing a result at home - but away from home....?!

As somebody else said earlier, it's possible Winter may have had pressure from "above" to try and win this game?

brad
09-27-2011, 10:08 AM
Agreed.

BUT....as we are still talking about the Chivas game: The silent minority don't give a flying poop about away games. Even most of the Toronto media don't report on it any more. So, I'm still at a loss to why Winter would play the best starting 11 at Chivas?!

If this was a home game...for sure, play your best team so the silence minority can have a "better chance" of seeing a result at home - but away from home....?!

As somebody else said earlier, it's possible Winter may have had pressure from "above" to try and win this game?

If we sat our best players there is a good chance we would have gotten blown away even worse. If that game was 5-0, 6-0, or even 8-0 the media would have been all over it - and it would have started with accusations about not playing the starters.

There may have been pressure from above due to renewals, or Winter might be a smart cog in the corporate machine that knows such things are going to be really bad at renewal time.

Or perhaps Winter also know that things are on knife edge as far as renewals go and he knows that a half empty stadium next year a bad thing for the team long term.

Regardless, I do think a blowout with most of our best players sitting would have a greater negative impact on renewals than a win vs Pumas in the CCL would have a positive effect.

rocker
09-27-2011, 10:27 AM
well, they just learned that even with their starters, on the road, they lost 3-0. So if there was corporate pressure, it didn't result in anything positive. I don't see a diff between a 3-0 loss on the road and a 5-0 loss. And we're assuming the reserves would have lost by more. But maybe Henry puts on a good show (unlike Iro).... or maybe a kid like Omphroy plays his heart out for a job next year. You never know.

I do agree there's a notion that teams should play their best, at the very least for the benefit of their opponents. Chivas could still make the playoffs, and I'm sure the teams above them wouldn't appreciate TFC basically handing Chivas a win with subs and academy boys playing. But.... as we saw, the first team lost anyways, so it was a moot point now.

I don't think a road game that didn't matter against a team nobody cares about would really make a difference in renewals. I mean, does anyone really think someone said "Well, if they win in LA I'm renewing my seats" or "If they play the subs in this road game, I'm not renewing"? Now, if it was a home game, in front of actual paying subscribers, I could understand the argument a bit better. But season ticket holders were not at the Chivas game and didn't pay a cent for it. The season was basically already over.

brad
09-27-2011, 10:44 AM
^^Hindsight is always 20-20. This group has had some decent road results in the last month or two, and while it is possible that dropping most of our starters would could have resulted in a similar or better result I wouldn't bet on it before the game. Maybe Winter and folks thought they had a shot at getting a good result on the road.

I think perception does have a lot to do with things though. I agree that nobody would likely say "I'm not renewing because we lost in LA", but they might say "We were never going win without Kovermans, ect, ect playing - why didn't Winter play, he's losing the plot" or some such thing.

Lots of folks are on the knife edge as far as renewals go and I don't think they want to pile on any more reasons to say no.

T-boy
09-27-2011, 11:08 AM
well, they just learned that even with their starters, on the road, they lost 3-0. So if there was corporate pressure, it didn't result in anything positive. I don't see a diff between a 3-0 loss on the road and a 5-0 loss. And we're assuming the reserves would have lost by more. But maybe Henry puts on a good show (unlike Iro).... or maybe a kid like Omphroy plays his heart out for a job next year. You never know.

I do agree there's a notion that teams should play their best, at the very least for the benefit of their opponents. Chivas could still make the playoffs, and I'm sure the teams above them wouldn't appreciate TFC basically handing Chivas a win with subs and academy boys playing. But.... as we saw, the first team lost anyways, so it was a moot point now.

I don't think a road game that didn't matter against a team nobody cares about would really make a difference in renewals. I mean, does anyone really think someone said "Well, if they win in LA I'm renewing my seats" or "If they play the subs in this road game, I'm not renewing"? Now, if it was a home game, in front of actual paying subscribers, I could understand the argument a bit better. But season ticket holders were not at the Chivas game and didn't pay a cent for it. The season was basically already over.

That's exactly my point. If some of the lesser player have their JOBS on the line...which some of them really do....maybe they would play out of their skin. It's this time of season we need to find out who the future is. WE KNOW our best starting eleven...but how about the rest?! In one of these last games of the season, Winter is going to have to blood some younger players like Omphroy....playing in reserve games just isn't the same as playing for the first team. And you never know, some of the lesser players may just play a blinder, and make us all look up!

If this truly is a "rebuilding season"...then we shouldn't care about the rest of the results, we need to see WHAT exactly we are building on...and that is our up and coming players that we haven't seen much of, like Omphroy!