Post Game: The Beating in Mexico

[DichioTFC]

0-4. Ranting begins in 3... 2... 1...

[Furtado91]

I just have to say this:picard: terrible terrible game. But i hope we can learn from this and beat Colorado on Saturday.

[rocktml]

Im going to be willy wonka for Halloween

[werewolf]

there is still 10+ mins to go. We aren't going to win, but it isn't the post-game yet.

[werewolf]

the match has now completed. Carry on.

[MG42]

I guess renewals won't be starting tomorrow lol

[rocker]

in other news, Tauro tied Dallas 1-1 in dallas.

[sully]

Clueless performance. Iro and Harden better not be back next season.

[nxtmike]

Some facts that make tonight's 4-0 loss sound half as bad:

- Pumas has not won in 7 games straight, both in reg. league play and CCL. They're stunned, yet also hungry to get themselves out of this winless streak. Local media and fans have been pressuring the team to turn around their performance for the better (unlike the media in Toronto just using our poor performance as a headline).
- Pumas fielded their reserves against Dallas. In fact, their reserves would even be an overstatement of the squad they fielded.
- They also fielded their reserves against Tauro.
- Then, all of a sudden they decide to take this tournament seriously and field over 75% of their A-team against us. Let's not forget that a good chunk of the Pumas players are on the Mexico team. Playing against a top-quality team in North America and only coming out of the game with a 4-0 loss in extremely high altitude and away from home could've been worse. At the rate we were conceding at in the first halve, it would have.

[TheFallen]

Clueless performance. Iro and Harden better not be back next season.

very wishful thinking, we traded A LOT to get Iro

[Auzzy]

the match has now completed. Carry on.

Why bother... :(

OK here goes. People will rip Iro but there was alot more wrong tonight than Andy Iro, especially in the first half. Did Winter not have a clue how fast Pumas is? Starting Iro & Harden together as CBs was never going to work. Also, many Toronto players didn't really start trying hard until the 2nd half, which was a bit better than the first IMO. Partly because Pumas subbed out 2 of their best players -- but TFC honestly seemed to be putting in a bit more effort.

In the first half there was zero possession for TFC, way too much room for Pumas in the midfield, etc.

However, even in the 2nd half Pumas could have easily scored a couple. So many times, you've got 5 or 6 Toronto players staring at the ball as a Pumas player takes it to the end line -- leaving about 4 Pumas players unmarked in front of goal.

[J .]

Why did we lose? Tactics, tactics, tactics.

In repnose to Canaray10, from the game thread. I suggest watching other top MLS teams defend. Then say I dont know what I am talking about.

The space between the mid and backline, the lack of cover and support, the lack of ball posession.

Fellas, we have seen the same for 4/5 years. You can put this match in any of seasons 1-3, and five and its all the same nonsense.

You can play the TFC style for maybe 10-20 minutes before teams expose you.

It would be nice to have a real coach in MLS, who realizes you do not have great 1v1 defenders in MLS and maybe 3-4 centrebacks in the league who can defend a 1v1 with any sort of consistency to not be called horrible.

I suggest those who insult me to stop watching EPL and attune their standards to MLS.

[MG42]

Is there anything about defending in the little red book that MLSE sent out?

[Auzzy]

The way many TFC players were running around in the 2nd half, at altitude...

We may get creamed on Saturday by Colorado.

[Oldtimer]

Why did we lose? Tactics, tactics, tactics.


It would be nice to have a real coach in MLS, who realizes you do not have great 1v1 defenders in MLS and maybe 3-4 centrebacks in the league who can defend a 1v1 with any sort of consistency to not be called horrible.



Welcome back. Where were you when TFC won against Columbus? * crickets *

[rocker]

We may get creamed on Saturday by Colorado.

Why do you say that? Colorado just got creamed yesterday at home by a Mexican team. They looked as bad as we did. If anything, I'd call for a tie.

[J .]

Welcome back. Where were you when TFC won against Columbus? * crickets *


Working

and

I dont think holding up one game as an example really proves your point that Winter has the ability to coach with regularity in MLS.

[Auzzy]

Why do you say that? Colorado just got creamed yesterday at home by a Mexican team. They looked as bad as we did. If anything, I'd call for a tie.

^ Well, that's a good point then! However, Colorado has an extra day of rest; has a shorter & easier trip to Toronto than TFC; and is used to their altitude, so may not be as tired after their game, even if they got creamed.

We shall see.

[starter]

We had a couple of good opportunities early on, but IMO the formation was too aggressive to keep up with Pumas... The back line weakness was clearly exposed, and money should be thrown at it in the postseason.

[Dkolish3]

Group Standings

FC Dallas 7 points
Pumas 4 points
Toronto FC 3 points
Tauro 3 points

All is not lost people, deep down we all knew that @Pumas was going to be a massacre unless Pumas decided to send in the scrubs and they didn't.

Winning at home vs. Tauro is likely, and getting 4 points from Dallas on the road and Pumas at home is certainly possible.

Toronto FC can still make it.

[T-boy]

Welcome back. Where were you when TFC won against Columbus? * crickets *

It really annoys me about this board that when somebody criticises, and actually gets the criticism correct (the tactics in this game WERE indeed poor) that the response is like this above!

We need to discuss the tactics, not nit pick at each other! How is that helping at all?! :picard:

[rocker]

Looking forward, next week is key. A win versus Tauro and a Dallas win against Pumas would put TFC in second place after 4 games. Then the key match arrives: home versus Pumas.

[Roogsy]

I don't see this game as indicative of anything regarding TFC. Mexican teams are still substantially stronger than MLS teams overall although the gap is narrowing.

I view this game with the same grain of salt I viewed the Real Esteli games, in that neither are indicative of TFC's abilities, good or bad.

Although a 4-0 loss isn't impressive at all. I think a 2-0 loss would have been more encouraging. (Stating the obvious of course.)

[v00d00daddy]

Gimme a break.

Tactics?

It's not about discussing tactics. It's about self felatio.

That's the point.

Btw...Winter wasn't up against MLS quality tonight so what fucking good would it do to have an MLS coach?

Did anybody here think we were gonna dictate the game in Mexico? Lol

[rocker]

Look, no amount of tactics are gonna make Iro and Harden good defenders at altitude in Mexico against talented forwards.

The dream game woulda been a tie.... We tied Cruz Azul last year, but that was a total fluke, given the massive barrage of chances Cruz Azul put on goal without scoring. They totally dominated TFC last year.

And even Dallas didn't look THAT good against Pumas in Mexico. They were strong, got the goal, and held on. Nobody goes into Mexico and bosses anyone around. If you have weak links (as we know) on defense, and you're missing your best defender (Eckersley) and one of your best forwards (Plata) then you're not going to have a good night. Colorado knows this from last night too.

[T-boy]

I still say Aron Winter's inability to change formation is really going to hurt us over the long term.

Today we really could have done with 2 up front....one up front can't hold the ball up at all. Johnson and Kovermanns were playing far too far apart, and whenever one of them got the ball, they couldn't keep it, TFC lost possession, and put Pumas back on the attack. It happened over and over again tonight.

I'm a true believer of defending from the front, and tonight we didn't do it at all. We need a pair of attackers who can keep the ball for longer period than one isolated attacker can do. Playing the 3 individual attackers doesn't work away from home, its too much of a luxury. IMO playing 4-4-2, with the 4 midfielders being more defensive minded (Dunfield should have started, for example) then 2 central attackers working as a pair, may have been far more succesful than Winter's 4-3-3.

[T-boy]

Look, no amount of tactics are gonna make Iro and Harden good defenders at altitude in Mexico against talented forwards.



Agreed, that's why TFC really neede to pack the midfield more, and close the centre of the park down, therefore taking the pressure of the defenders. This isn't just Harden and Iro's fault. If the midfield is too weak (too few numbers) then putting pressure on a dodgy back line is going to make them break far too easily.

Harden and Iro may not be skillful....but the obvious tactic is to make sure they aren't put under pressure. TFC didn't do that at all tonight. And I personally blame tactics....a lack of number in the middle of the pitch.

[Yohan]

4-3-3 does not work because guys like Soolsma cannot, or even worse, will not track back to defend. Only wide forward I've seen constantly track back is Plata

[Blazer]

I still say Aron Winter's inability to change formation is really going to hurt us over the long term.

Today we really could have done with 2 up front....one up front can't hold the ball up at all. Johnson and Kovermanns were playing far too far apart, and whenever one of them got the ball, they couldn't keep it, TFC lost possession, and put Pumas back on the attack. It happened over and over again tonight.

I'm a true believer of defending from the front, and tonight we didn't do it at all. We need a pair of attackers who can keep the ball for longer period than one isolated attacker can do. Playing the 3 individual attackers doesn't work away from home, its too much of a luxury. IMO playing 4-4-2, with the 4 midfielders being more defensive minded (Dunfield should have started, for example) then 2 central attackers working as a pair, may have been far more succesful than Winter's 4-3-3.

A dearth of talent will hurt us in the long haul too. We’re debating proximate problems here when the ultimate issue is that this team just doesn’t have the talent to be good enough in MLS, never mind in a Champions League tournament that we’re a part of by default only. We’re not welcomed in this tournament and shouldn’t feel proud of anything this team has accomplished to get to this point. We should instead fear that soon Vancouver and Montreal will be knocking on this tournament’s door when we are no longer the best of the worst.

[ManUtd4ever]

Although it's not an excuse for TFC's dismal performance, the starting lineup was missing a few key players. Koevermans, Borman, and Henry were all playing out of position, and the result was a lack of cohesion all over the pitch. TFC missed a couple of early chances and seemed to lose motivation after going down 2-0. A very disappointing effort overall.

[shutupkid]

ouch

[Heathen]

Gimme a break.

Tactics?

It's not about discussing tactics. It's about self felatio.

That's the point.

Btw...Winter wasn't up against MLS quality tonight so what fucking good would it do to have an MLS coach?

Did anybody here think we were gonna dictate the game in Mexico? Lol

Did anybody think we'd be 4-0 down at half-time LOL

[T-boy]

Why isn't Dunfield getting a game?! Has he started a game yet? Maybe once?

He's a tough tackling midfielder, surely a type of player we need against a flair team like Pumas? Would he have been a better option than Koevermanns tonight maybe?

[J .]

I truly do not get why people are mad some of us are pointing out tactical deficincies. It is almost as though if you do not agree it is solely on the players that you some how are this ultra negative retard.

Any time you lose 4-0 there is a bigger problem than the players on the pitch. The reason why you want a Schmid or Kinnear and so on is that they can make teams deficiencies less glaring. Winters tactics play into the fact there IS a lack of talent.

We have excellent defenders of crosses into the box, but they are inadequate 1v1. Therefore tactics should be adjusted to match what you have. Winter has not done that all year.

We have players who can play, we dont have the tactics to go with their skill sets.

[starter]

The whole backline looked amateurish for most of the night, allowing Pumas forwards to have clear shots on goal from different angles, seemingly afraid to loose a footchase to the goalline!? The only chance for a point TFC had was to bunker down Preki style.

[jazzy]

It really annoys me about this board that when somebody criticises, and actually gets the criticism correct (the tactics in this game WERE indeed poor) that the response is like this above!

We need to discuss the tactics, not nit pick at each other! How is that helping at all?! :picard:

so indeed, tactics were poor, but how would someone defend with the likes of Iro and Harden, constantly being out run....and outsmarted? You can tell anyone how you would like them to play but if your speed and talent is lacking???...Remember Ecks did us a disservice with his last yellow. Going into Mexico with our line up I'm not sure what I would do. Remember Winter is not the man playing. Do we pull a Preki then? 4 men at the back I guess is what was needed but at what cost?

[Canary10]

We have people arguing tactics who have an under 12 concept of how you play the game. I love it!!

[T-boy]

I truly do not get why people are mad some of us are pointing out tactical deficincies. It is almost as though if you do not agree it is solely on the players that you some how are this ultra negative retard.

Any time you lose 4-0 there is a bigger problem than the players on the pitch. The reason why you want a Schmid or Kinnear and so on is that they can make teams deficiencies less glaring. Winters tactics play into the fact there IS a lack of talent.

We have excellent defenders of crosses into the box, but they are inadequate 1v1. Therefore tactics should be adjusted to match what you have. Winter has not done that all year.

We have players who can play, we dont have the tactics to go with their skill sets.

I totally 100% agree.

And to answer the poster above "how can you play with Iro and Harden as the defenders" - the answer is that you play to their attributes. Harden and Iro are good in the air - TFC need to pack the centre of the midfield so that Pumas HAD to attack down the wings and put crosses in, instead of letting Pumas dictate the centre of the field, and put Iro and Harden on constant 1v1's with the Pumas attackers.

Winter is VERY stubborn with his formations and tactics. OK - its GREAT that he wants to play a flair 4-3-3 - BUT he needs to wait until he has the correct personel to do this.

Right now, TFC do NOT have the players to play this formation, and definitely do not have the centre backs who can pass their way out of the backline. So, Winter needs to play to these players positives, not allow them to be run at over and over.

[T-boy]

We have people arguing tactics who have an under 12 concept of how you play the game. I love it!!

So, how about an opinion, do you think Winter got his tactics right tonight then?????

[Canary10]

Th loss had nothing to do with tactics. It was largely an unnamed former Columbus central defender who didn't close down his man on a few occassions and had a shit game until he was thankfully removed. Not generally a good game by the guys either - they lacked jump for sure. And a Pumas team under serious pressure to get a result. I wish it was better but I'm not going to jump to impugn the whole reputation of the coach for obvious mistakes from a handful of people. Btw, 4-3-3 requires wingers playing the entire pitch. When defending there should be 5 in the midfield. It's not a matter of being outmanned in the midfield. But those wingers have to play their role.l

[Canary10]

These Mexican teams are pretty fucking good too.it is possible to just be beaten by a better team. Colorado found that out too.

[PopePouri]

We should have beat them especially playing away from home. We all know how shitty Mexican teams play in CCL.

[T-boy]

Th loss had nothing to do with tactics. It was largely an unnamed former Columbus central defender who didn't close down his man on a few occassions and had a shit game until he was thankfully removed. Not generally a good game by the guys either - they lacked jump for sure. And a Pumas team under serious pressure to get a result. I wish it was better but I'm not going to jump to impugn the whole reputation of the coach for obvious mistakes from a handful of people. Btw, 4-3-3 requires wingers playing the entire pitch. When defending there should be 5 in the midfield. It's not a matter of being outmanned in the midfield. But those wingers have to play their role.l

Respectfully I disagree. Although I agree that Iro is a poor player - I don't agree that wingers, by trade, should be the ones who are tracking back. Wingers, by trade, are very attack minded footballers. There attributes are to attack, not defend. I think TFC should have played 4 out and out midfielders, not wingers, who would have been more succesful in this tracking back, as this is their attributes. Soolsma, is not and will never be, a defensive minded player. Somebody like Dunfield is - and he should have been playing in central midfield tonight. Having two wingers in this type of game is very much a luxury item.

Although I do agree that there should be 5 a in midfield, ONLY the BEST wingers in the world are good at tackling, marking AND attacking. There are VERY few wingers in the MLS who are any good at that. So, I would have wanted Winter to forgo the wingers tonight, and play central midfielders who would have been better at closing down the midfield.

I don't think my opinion on these tactics are under 12 level????? Unless my football knowledge is a lot worse than I think it is?

You really can't say that this loss had NOTHING to do with tactics?! That's crazy! Aron Winter picked the players for this team/squad, told them how to play, picked the formation.....this loss has everything to do with tactics!

[Couchy81]

I like Winter to an extent but I agree with the negativity here tonight, why Dunfield didn't start is beyond me, well rested workhorse in high altitude away from home. Also pairing our two arguably worst defenders (harden/iro) with our two youngest defenders (henry/morgan) is retarded, the kids aren't going to learn anything because they aren't playing within a proper backline. I would have liked to see Viator in back or drop Frings to that weird ass CB spot he was played in a few weeks ago.

The bright side I suppose is we had two REALLY fucking close chances in the first half from Koev and Johnson, had either or both gone in it would have been a different game. Also Winter coached his first game against a Mexican team, in Mexico. Don't think he isn't taking notes on this one.

Regardless lots of ties in this group so far so we're still in it.

[Alonso]

I totally 100% agree.

And to answer the poster above "how can you play with Iro and Harden as the defenders" - the answer is that you play to their attributes. Harden and Iro are good in the air - TFC need to pack the centre of the midfield so that Pumas HAD to attack down the wings and put crosses in, instead of letting Pumas dictate the centre of the field, and put Iro and Harden on constant 1v1's with the Pumas attackers.

Winter is VERY stubborn with his formations and tactics. OK - its GREAT that he wants to play a flair 4-3-3 - BUT he needs to wait until he has the correct personel to do this.

Right now, TFC do NOT have the players to play this formation, and definitely do not have the centre backs who can pass their way out of the backline. So, Winter needs to play to these players positives, not allow them to be run at over and over.

My only hope is that he's being this way to easily spot who can and can't work in the system that he wants. My guess is that Harden and Iro are gone next year and replaced with quicker guys who can defend 1v1.

I don't understand why he would throw away games though... We should have been all about defence tonight.

[Canary10]

T-Boy, I wasn't referring to you with that comment. Fair enough on your thoughts.... Suggest we don't draw too many broad conclusions from this match though. Mexico's a tough place to get results and we walked into a bit of a perfect storm.

[rocker]

Aron Winter picked the players for this team/squad, told them how to play, picked the formation.....this loss has everything to do with tactics!

so you completely absolve the players from any blame then.....?

Winter doesn't run out on the field and play the game. When do the players actually get blamed?

[Alonso]

so you completely absolve the players from any blame then.....?

Winter doesn't run out on the field and play the game. When do the players actually get blamed?

He seems to be blaming the coach in so far as that Winter isn't using a formation that plays to his players strengths.

Harden and Iro can't defend 1v1, so why place them into that situation?

As already mentioned, why not play a system that forces crosses into the box which is Harden and Iro's strength (which they still aren't that great at)

[Waggy]

I guess the posters from postgame on sat were smarter and stuck to their gut instincts and ignored this place after a game like that. I get that bitching allows people to better handle losses, but I have to ask: If you can take such pain from a loss but marginalize a win as "just one game"... I mean it's like getting hangovers without the drunk part. Just stop drinking. What's the point? And by stop drinking, I mean find a hobby you can actually enjoy. We got killed on the road against a significantly better team. We were unlucky early to not get some goals, if it's 2-2 after 25 min then the game is totally different. Thems the breaks. Go get em on Sat. Things to take from this game:

We don't have the kind of depth to field anything but our A+ team and expect a result.
Just because a team hasn't seemed to take a tournament seriously previously doesn't mean they'll lay down for us too.


Come ready to play next game and I'll write this game off as an anomaly. However I want to see a rebound effort, that's something traditionally we've been terrible at (bad losses snowball into losing streaks which snowball into scoreless losing streaks which snowball into 100 page Dero threads, protests, protests against the protests etc).

[Alonso]

I guess the posters from postgame on sat were smarter and stuck to their gut instincts and ignored this place after a game like that. I get that bitching allows people to better handle losses, but I have to ask: If you can take such pain from a loss but marginalize a win as "just one game"... I mean it's like getting hangovers without the drunk part. Just stop drinking. What's the point? And by stop drinking, I mean find a hobby you can actually enjoy. We got killed on the road against a significantly better team. We were unlucky early to not get some goals, if it's 2-2 after 25 min then the game is totally different. Thems the breaks. Go get em on Sat. Things to take from this game:

We don't have the kind of depth to field anything but our A+ team and expect a result.
Just because a team hasn't seemed to take a tournament seriously previously doesn't mean they'll lay down for us too.


Come ready to play next game and I'll write this game off as an anomaly. However I want to see a rebound effort, that's something traditionally we've been terrible at (bad losses snowball into losing streaks which snowball into scoreless losing streaks which snowball into 100 page Dero threads, protests, protests against the protests etc).

I posted post game on Saturday and was very positive about the match and the team and definitely didn't marginalize it as a "one off win".

And for the most part I avoid these threads when they start to turn ugly. But I think their is a valid argument that tactics is heavily to blame for the thumping we got tonight.

I just thought tonight we threw away points by playing an attacking formation and missing key players in both the offensive and defensive part of the field. That's the coach's fault. Two academy players on the back line and Iro and Harden at CB? Against a fast and superiorly offensive team that needed a win and played most of its A lineup? We should have played Preki style and bunkered down for this one.

[T-boy]

T-Boy, I wasn't referring to you with that comment. Fair enough on your thoughts.... Suggest we don't draw too many broad conclusions from this match though. Mexico's a tough place to get results and we walked into a bit of a perfect storm.

Sorry, I just bit the bullet as I'm clearly not happy about the result! There's been too many away games where TFC have been pretty much thrashed off the field this season.
Way too many.

But of course agreed Pumas away was never going to be easy. I think I didn't like that Pumas could have scored about twenty tonight! Something was clearly wrong. I don't think a Mexican team should be THAT much better than an MLS team (and by THAT much, I mean it was likt watching Man Utd play a Barrie pub team!

[T-boy]

so you completely absolve the players from any blame then.....?

Winter doesn't run out on the field and play the game. When do the players actually get blamed?

It's always been my thinking that the buck HAS to stop with the management of a football team. You have to remember that Iro didn't chose himself to play, Winter chose him. In fact, Winter (and his colleagues) did some BIG business getting Iro here in the first place!

It is Winter who is "insisting" in playing a left footed player at left centre back, whereas we have another centre back (Viator) who could have started the game.

I don't absolve the players, but you do have to remember that its the decisions that are made in the locker room that put the players on the pitch.

I do hope that Iro is gone next season. BUT, I have a suspicioun that he wont' be, especially as they had to trade so much to get him here, and Iro seems to be the "left footed left centre back" that Winter wants!

[PopePouri]

why Dunfield didn't start is beyond me, well rested workhorse in high altitude away from home.

Was he on the bench against Columbus? If not, is he's probably recovering from injury?

Here's the thing, we don't know the entire story of these selections whether through form or injury. Winter could have started Viator but both him and Henry let in 4 against Columbus reserves. What is evident is that there is a lack of quality at the CB position regardless of who we play.

Is that Winter's fault, well we one could argue that (and based on the Robinson trade), that teams were reluctant to let go of their prized CBs and had to get whatever was on the bench. Again we don't know the full story.

[TFC USA]

Ummm....

We beat the Crew 4-2.

We're not good enough to do shit in the CL anyway. Can't we just enjoy beating Columbus? It's like getting a hot chick to break into your house for the sole purpose of giving the best fuck of your life.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

I just have to say this:picard: terrible terrible game. But i hope we can learn from this and beat Colorado on Saturday.

Learn from this and beat Colorado??????????

THE MLS SEASON IS LONG GONE AND MEANS NOTING AT THIS POINT!!!!!


BEating the RApids means SHITE at this point!

[Wombat]

Is there anything about defending in the little red book that MLSE sent out?

That was one of the blank pages

[Carts]

That was one of the blank pages

:smilielol5:

ZING! Where's the ZingBot when we need it...!!!

Seriously though, great line...

[Carts]

Ummm....

We beat the Crew 4-2.

We're not good enough to do shit in the CL anyway. Can't we just enjoy beating Columbus? It's like getting a hot chick to break into your house for the sole purpose of giving the best fuck of your life.

I'm not sure how this analogy fits in - but uh, can I try this out in reality and report back...??? :hump:

Carts... :D

[Oldtimer]

TFC must be one of the more "unlucky" teams in football.

Dallas got to face Pumas' kids and even then just barely won.
TFC ends up getting (most of) the first team. Of course they were killed.

That is the real reason for the defeat, and has nothing to do with how so-and-so played or Winter's alleged deficiencies or skills or formations or the weather or altitude or whatever.

You just have to think a bit about Mexico's teams salary budget:
We have enough to afford one Frings. A Mexican team can afford to start 11 Frings. That is the difference.

[123 elite]

seems quite appropriate....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/sep/15/gian-piero-gasperini-internazionale-inter

[London]

^^^ agree, this team is so much better than TFC, tfc will have to get some favorable desicions to earn even a draw next time

[Fort York Redcoat]

It's always been my thinking that the buck HAS to stop with the management of a football team. You have to remember that Iro didn't chose himself to play, Winter chose him. In fact, Winter (and his colleagues) did some BIG business getting Iro here in the first place!

It is Winter who is "insisting" in playing a left footed player at left centre back, whereas we have another centre back (Viator) who could have started the game.

I don't absolve the players, but you do have to remember that its the decisions that are made in the locker room that put the players on the pitch.

I do hope that Iro is gone next season. BUT, I have a suspicioun that he wont' be, especially as they had to trade so much to get him here, and Iro seems to be the "left footed left centre back" that Winter wants!


Interesting discussion (now that it's more civil) between blaming the coach vs the players. Valid arguments on both sides. Iro plus Harden must mean tracking back in a normal game but vs CCL opponents in Mexico (against most of their first squad) would mean at least 5 at the back to get away with a better result. The cost is becoming apparent that that model would be wasting the small amount of talent we do have on this team in midfield.

The formation seems to be sink or swim for players and fans both. I'm kind of disappointed we seem to feel that Iro has to have his fair shake of time because of how much we spent to get him here. Viator isn't rated any better than Iro but hasn't made such a hash of his time on the pitch.

In the end it looked like Men against boys. Old, old men vs skilled, fast boys. Come on Saturday.

[canadian_bhoy]

I can't figure out why a last place MLS team would have a hard time against the champs of mexico.

[Juanito]

Guys, keep in mind that it is very difficult to play in El distrito federal (Mexico City). The US national team has NEVER won there, and one of the reasons is the altitude. TFC may have looked gas because they really were exhausted. They say it takes a week or so to acclimatise to the altitude change, and we're just not used to it.

Please, cut them some slack .... this wasn't going to be an easy match in the best of conditions.

[Borga]

Who cares? We lose 4-0 playing the way we did, or we lose 2-0 playing Prekiball. It's glaringly obvious Pumas is a superior team, regardless of our tactics.

[bones]

I can't figure out why a last place MLS team would have a hard time against the champs of mexico.

Fucking Brilliant!


Also, as I saw the line up I sent a message to some people and I described our back 4 as Harden/Iro and 2 rookies..... Swiss fucking Cheese.

All this talk of tactics, here's something important to all the armchair coaches on this board.

You don't know the whole story with players and why they're played by a coach or sat or left at home. To think you do without being inside the coaching staff's circle is arrogant and wrong. (I'm not saying for 1 second that I know why players are chosen either but as an example: after speaking with Dunfield flying back from Chicago I learned he's recovering from a bad groin injury and was not 100% but training to get back. Maybe he's at the "partial game" stage to test it out? Only the coaches know.)

A good point was made about playing a style to play into our strengths. Forcing everything wide to put the ball in the air. Well, although this is a good concept, so it winning lotto 6/49. Did you watch as I did, the number of times the ball was wide and oooooops GONE PAST LIKE OUR D WAS STANDING STILL. Seriously, if we had HAD 5 or 6 defenders that played like our starting 4 on the back line last night we could have played a 6-3-1 and still had them walk through us.

I think the tactics vs players thing is totally chicken and egg. Many arguments can be made for both sides, but truthfully, unless there's a balance of good on both sides you don't win and more than not look bad in the process.

[redcard]

These Mexican teams are pretty fucking good too.it is possible to just be beaten by a better team. Colorado found that out too.

As well as LA when they were up 1-nil and lost 2-1.

[Juanito]

Tactics aren't going to dous any good if the players are having a hard time getting air in their lungs. When we play these Mexican teams, you almost need to split your squad in two, send one to your weekend league match, and the other to Mexico City for a week, so they can train and get used to the air.

Flying to Mexico City, a few days before the match, has been shown not to work. There are two theories on playing at high altitudes (when you're not from said region), you either take a week to acclimatise or you show up literally hours before the match and play. The former has been shown to work, the latter hasn't, but it's a theory nonetheless.

[Canary10]

"Harden and Iro can't defend 1v1, so why place them into that situation?"

I have news for you. In ANY system a defender has to defend 1 v. 1.

[__wowza]

I truly do not get why people are mad some of us are pointing out tactical deficincies. It is almost as though if you do not agree it is solely on the players that you some how are this ultra negative retard.

Any time you lose 4-0 there is a bigger problem than the players on the pitch. The reason why you want a Schmid or Kinnear and so on is that they can make teams deficiencies less glaring. Winters tactics play into the fact there IS a lack of talent.

We have excellent defenders of crosses into the box, but they are inadequate 1v1. Therefore tactics should be adjusted to match what you have. Winter has not done that all year.

We have players who can play, we dont have the tactics to go with their skill sets.

so wait, you're suggesting that to adequately defend, we'd need to force them out to the wings. you'd like to talk tactics then let's talk tactics. whose going to force them out to the wings? pumas are a pretty fast team, so we're going to need a few pretty fast players to put pressure on them and stop them from cutting across. maybe we could get.. _______? oh, and let's not forget the fact that iro has had issues in the past reaching the ball or being on the wrong side of the attacker during a cross.

how bout we just fill the midfield and use our numbers to force them out, we can play a 4-5-1 and have a sole striker score all of our goals to win the game? because that'd help with our no AM at the moment. oh yeah, and with their pass complete rate hovering around 85% in their attacking third, let's just assume that they couldn't knock it around the midfield and get past us anyways.

i've asked you this before, but tell us, what would YOU have done to won the game? who would've been your starting 11? how would they have played? because i can guarantee you that even with their height, iro and harden would've lost the plot about 15 minutes into the game. we've seen them do it before and it's idiotic to say "yeah, but if they forced crosses into the box this time we definately could've defended them!"

[Detroit_TFC]

I can't figure out why a last place MLS team would have a hard time against the champs of mexico.

That did make me laugh and I needed a laugh bad this am.

Didn't see the game because my power went out, so I can't really comment on the game. Once I heard yesterday that Puma was throwing in a number of starters I knew this outcome was a possibility (likelihood, actually). I was just hoping we could find a little something to put our stamp on the game, but we're not ready for prime time yet. That shouldn't surprise anybody.

[Jack]

TFC must be one of the more "unlucky" teams in football.

Dallas got to face Pumas' kids and even then just barely won.
TFC ends up getting (most of) the first team. Of course they were killed.

That is the real reason for the defeat, and has nothing to do with how so-and-so played or Winter's alleged deficiencies or skills or formations or the weather or altitude or whatever.

You just have to think a bit about Mexico's teams salary budget:
We have enough to afford one Frings. A Mexican team can afford to start 11 Frings. That is the difference.

The Mexican teams have decent budgets, certainly a lot higher than ours, but they don't carry 11 multi-million dollar players. Probably more like 4 or 5 in the 1 million range with one or two earning superstar salaries.

As for us being "unlucky", I think the expectations around here that we were going to get a B-squad were a pipe dream. Pumas had to win. Pumas fanbase and the Mexican football media are like nothing we've seen here when it comes to this sport. The scrutiny down there is something akin to the hockey media. Every play, from the referees to the players, gets dissected in 3d analysis, replayed hundreds of times and examined in minute detail by the pundits. The spotlight is intense and these guys had to get a win.

There is no way in hell we were going to be able to hang with a top-level team from a league that is already a level above ours when they were hungry for a win. We can barely hang in MLS.

I love my TFC, but I am also realistic about what sort of team we have right now :(

[trane]

We are not good enough defensively. Defense is about team play, the team holding shape, keeping position, and staying compact. TFC should sit down and watch Milan-Barca. Defense is about team organization. Sure it helps having good CBs, but it is must more then that.


I also say this to any person on this board who think that tactics do not matter. Was Greece more tallented then any team in Europe when they won the Euro? Tactics do matter, sure more tallent matters, but it is not either or. When you know that you are encountering a more talentet team, and any genious would have known that, then you adopt your tactics to address that. You keep it tight, and stay behind the ball, work hard, and make it hard for them to beat you. Is altidude a problem? Then stay back defend do not run.

[Auzzy]

^ Jack, good point. Except that translated quotes from their coach, and supposed "inside info" here on the forum, seemed to suggest it would mostly be a young squad for Pumas again. Probably sowing confusion was part of their strategy.

How much attention, analysis, etc. is directed at the CCL games in Mexico? Seeing how empty the stadium was, I thought it might not be very important for them. Also, with Pumas currently doing badly in league play, again I thought it might be a reason for them to not have many first-team starters playing vs. Toronto. It didn't turn out that way.

[Ageroo]

We are not good enough defensively. Defense is about team play, the team holding shape, keeping position, and staying compact. TFC should sit down and watch Milan-Barca. Defense is about team organization. Sure it helps having good CBs, but it is must more then that.

Very true....and the fact that our wingbacks push forward so much and leave our CBs exposed doesn't help either. Harden and Iro are too slow. Even with Cann and Williams back there I am not sure it would have helped. Williams looks relatively fast, but Cann isn't the speediest either. We need someone back there who has pace. Henry is fast, but still very raw.

[Yohan]

Henry needs some game time at USL/NASL level next season. he's about two years away from contributing consistently I'd say

[Canary10]

We are not good enough defensively. Defense is about team play, the team holding shape, keeping position, and staying compact. TFC should sit down and watch Milan-Barca. Defense is about team organization. Sure it helps having good CBs, but it is must more then that.


I also say this to any person on this board who think that tactics do not matter. Was Greece more tallented then any team in Europe when they won the Euro? Tactics do matter, sure more tallent matters, but it is not either or. When you know that you are encountering a more talentet team, and any genious would have known than, then you adopt your tactics to address that. You keep it tight, and stay behind the ball, work hard, and make it hard for them to beat you. Is altidude a problem? Then stay back defend do not run.

Of course tactics matter, but playing 10 men behind the ball isn't tactics, it's giving up. You can't play 10 men behind the ball for 90 minutes against most teams and get a result. And all the tactics in world don't make up for defender who can't make a basic tackle. That's what happened last night.

[trane]

^ I am sorry that is silly British truism. Milan played a very defensive game against barca. In the UK you would say it was 10 men behind the ball, yet they got a point. Going to Barca and trying to bring it too them, is not bravery it is stupidity. Adopting tactics to your oppenent is what a manager sould do. To us PUMAS are what Barca are to a top Euro club, you go to their house and work for a draw, and maybe you get awin. You do not go in their and fatasize about scoring goals, and get raped like we did. I love my team and I hate seeing getting raped.


YOU DO NOT COUNT ON ONE DEFENDER TO MAKE ONE TACKLE. NO GOOD TEAM DOES. EVERY TOP TEAM IN THE WORLD DEFENDS WITH 10 MEN.

[Canary10]

"YOU DO NOT COUNT ON ONE DEFENDER TO MAKE ONE TACKLE. NO GOOD TEAM DOES. EVERY TOP TEAM IN THE WORLD DEFENDS WITH 10 MEN."

????

This is like saying your wide receiver can't catch, so why put him in a position to have to catch? Yeah, you defend as a team, but central defenders have to make tackles. That's their job. Their PRIMARY job.

[Canary10]

Didn't watch the Barca game so can't really comment. Yeah, the odd team can get away with playing full out defense and play for a counter. Italian teams have been doing it for years. Personally I'd rather lose a game 4-0 than play that way, but that's me. My experience is teams that play that way get found out eventually.

[Jack]

^ Jack, good point. Except that translated quotes from their coach, and supposed "inside info" here on the forum, seemed to suggest it would mostly be a young squad for Pumas again. Probably sowing confusion was part of their strategy.

How much attention, analysis, etc. is directed at the CCL games in Mexico? Seeing how empty the stadium was, I thought it might not be very important for them. Also, with Pumas currently doing badly in league play, again I thought it might be a reason for them to not have many first-team starters playing vs. Toronto. It didn't turn out that way.

I must admit, I hadn't read much of the Mexican media leading up to the game.

The sad truth is, even with half of their A-Team, they're going to put a beating on us. They are a still a championship team, despite being in a bit of a rut. The coach put out enough of the big boys to give them a solid win and boost the confidence that has been bruised by 3 consecutive defeats in the league, according to esmas.com, the Televisa website. Televisa is one of the two major TV channels in Mexico along with TV Azteca and the sporting arms of both of them are massive.

It should be noted that the game preview article on that same website, the headline translates to "Must-win for Pumas in the Concachampions (http://mxm.televisadeportes.esmas.com/futbol/partidos/concachampions-2011-2012/13961/pumas-vs-toronto/previo.html)". A key line from that article is this one: "está por verse si su entrenador, Guillermo Vázquez, insiste en alienar sólo suplentes o hace una combinación con el ingreso de experimentados a mitad de juego." which translates as "it remains to be seen whether manager Guillermo Vazquez will field a team of backups or a combination with the introduction of more experienced players at the half". So I think, based on the quotes in that article, a reliable source on the goings-on of Mexican, that the expectations were flawed.

[ensco]

Preki's team taking 4 points off Cruz Azul last year, that was an amazing accomplishment, he didn't get enough credit for that. Whatever else you think of Preki.

[DangerRed]

We had a couple of good opportunities early on, but IMO the formation was too aggressive to keep up with Pumas... The back line weakness was clearly exposed, and money should be thrown at it in the postseason.


Gimme a break.

Tactics?

It's not about discussing tactics. It's about self felatio.

That's the point.

Btw...Winter wasn't up against MLS quality tonight so what fucking good would it do to have an MLS coach?

Did anybody here think we were gonna dictate the game in Mexico? Lol


Although it's not an excuse for TFC's dismal performance, the starting lineup was missing a few key players. Koevermans, Borman, and Henry were all playing out of position, and the result was a lack of cohesion all over the pitch. TFC missed a couple of early chances and seemed to lose motivation after going down 2-0. A very disappointing effort overall.


TFC must be one of the more "unlucky" teams in football.

Dallas got to face Pumas' kids and even then just barely won.
TFC ends up getting (most of) the first team. Of course they were killed.

That is the real reason for the defeat, and has nothing to do with how so-and-so played or Winter's alleged deficiencies or skills or formations or the weather or altitude or whatever.

You just have to think a bit about Mexico's teams salary budget:
We have enough to afford one Frings. A Mexican team can afford to start 11 Frings. That is the difference.


Guys, keep in mind that it is very difficult to play in El distrito federal (Mexico City). The US national team has NEVER won there, and one of the reasons is the altitude. TFC may have looked gas because they really were exhausted. They say it takes a week or so to acclimatise to the altitude change, and we're just not used to it.

Please, cut them some slack .... this wasn't going to be an easy match in the best of conditions.

An excuse for every season.

I guess given how much better than us Pumas really are, we should've just forefit the game and saved our legs for the all-important Colorado game on Saturday. Right?

Here's what I expect, every game, regardless of whether TFC plays Man U or the Vancouver Whitecaps: I expect a competitive performance, where even the weakest player called upon to start puts in 100 percent. I do NOT expect a wholesale cave-in collapse like this or like 6-2 or like whichever blowout loss you want to pick this season.

If everyone IS in fact giving it 100 percent (which you obviously cannot say that they are) and we're still getting blown out 4-0, then I expect those players to never start again.

But what if it's tactics rather than the players? Well, then. Time to take a hard look at the guys choosing those tactics, no?

[Canary10]

What i saw last night wasn't a failure of the system but a really bad effort from a lot of players. The central defence did not do its job (and yes, should be held accountable for that). As Danger Red says above, we expect 100% effort every game and we didn't get it last night. There may have been some reasons for that (altitude, etc) but it's not acceptable. But it wasn't the system that caused it.

[Canary10]

We were also trying to hold a high offside line for a lot of last night, and got burned a few times with some close but not quite offsides. Iro and Harden should have been player lower, especially with they're lack of pace against speedy forwards. Partly coaching, but partly a good central defender would have taken charge and moved the line back.

[Suds]

An excuse for every season.

I guess given how much better than us Pumas really are, we should've just forefit the game and saved our legs for the all-important Colorado game on Saturday. Right?

Here's what I expect, every game, regardless of whether TFC plays Man U or the Vancouver Whitecaps: I expect a competitive performance, where even the weakest player called upon to start puts in 100 percent. I do NOT expect a wholesale cave-in collapse like this or like 6-2 or like whichever blowout loss you want to pick this season.

If everyone IS in fact giving it 100 percent (which you obviously cannot say that they are) and we're still getting blown out 4-0, then I expect those players to never start again.

But what if it's tactics rather than the players? Well, then. Time to take a hard look at the guys choosing those tactics, no?


I think it is more than fair to ask the questions and discuss if the tactics were the right ones. It should not be out and out discounted.

I've stayed out of most of the debate around - is it the talent, is it the tactics, is it the coaching? Mainly because many posts want to point solely to one thing as the reason. (posts in general, not saying you do Danger)

For me, I see a combination of many of these things factoring into our record. We are lacking depth and talent. This leads to mistakes that cost us goals. It also leads to poor implementation of tactics, whatever they are. I also think Winter has made some bad decisions in certain games. Not all games though. I just can't buy any one argument that says it's any one player, coach, or choice of formation as the main reason. I think it all plays into our record.

[trane]

"YOU DO NOT COUNT ON ONE DEFENDER TO MAKE ONE TACKLE. NO GOOD TEAM DOES. EVERY TOP TEAM IN THE WORLD DEFENDS WITH 10 MEN."

????

This is like saying your wide receiver can't catch, so why put him in a position to have to catch? Yeah, you defend as a team, but central defenders have to make tackles. That's their job. Their PRIMARY job.

You are missing the point, if your defensice system is simply predicate on your central defener being able to tackle you are not going to win many games. Even the best defender in the world, is at a disatvatage when he is left in one on one situations to often.

The primary job of the central defender is not JUST tackling, it is keeping good position, between the attacker and the goal, gaining posession of the ball as soon as possible ( if possible before the attacker receives it) without giving away position, and then making a good pass or clearanance. A good central defender, can mark, can tackle, can read the game, excellent positionaly, is strong and hopefully good in air, to head crosses out of the area, he is also a good decision maker, and solid passer. That is why Fringgs is a good opition at CB for us.

[brad]

An excuse for every season.

I guess given how much better than us Pumas really are, we should've just forefit the game and saved our legs for the all-important Colorado game on Saturday. Right?

The Colorado game isn't important because the MLS season is already lost. Pumas being superior has no bearing on your point. We still had something to play for in the CCL so we put the strongest squad out.


Here's what I expect, every game, regardless of whether TFC plays Man U or the Vancouver Whitecaps: I expect a competitive performance, where even the weakest player called upon to start puts in 100 percent. So if TFC played a United side that murdered Arsenal and did the same to us you would blame our players? Fair enough I guess, I certainly wouldn't.


I do NOT expect a wholesale cave-in collapse like this or like 6-2 or like whichever blowout loss you want to pick this season.I do - when playing a vastly superior opponent (like Pumas is) - I expect to get blown out and hope that I am pleasantly surprised.


If everyone IS in fact giving it 100 percent (which you obviously cannot say that they are) and we're still getting blown out 4-0, then I expect those players to never start again.The way your post reads - it sounds like you think we could match up with Barca on any given day as long as the players gave it there all.


But what if it's tactics rather than the players? Well, then. Time to take a hard look at the guys choosing those tactics, no?It's both I'm afraid. Hand this team over to Mourinho and we still lose to Pumas 9 time out of 10.

[DangerRed]

I think it is more than fair to ask the questions and discuss if the tactics were the right ones. It should not be out and out discounted.

I've stayed out of most of the debate around - is it the talent, is it the tactics, is it the coaching? Mainly because many posts want to point solely to one thing as the reason. (posts in general, not saying you do Danger)

For me, I see a combination of many of these things factoring into our record. We are lacking depth and talent. This leads to mistakes that cost us goals. It also leads to poor implementation of tactics, whatever they are. I also think Winter has made some bad decisions in certain games. Not all games though. I just can't buy any one argument that says it's any one player, coach, or choice of formation as the main reason. I think it all plays into our record.

Absolutely. There is a plethora of problems with this team, and anyone who pegs it all on Andy Iro, tactics or Winter alone fails to understand that it takes all kinds of failure to bake the casserole of nonsense that is TFC today.

[Canary10]

"The primary job of the central defender is not JUST tackling, it is keeping good position, between the attacker and the goal, gaining posession of the ball as soon as possible ( if possible before the attacker receives it) without giving away position, and then making a good pass or clearanance. A good central defender, can mark, can tackle, can read the game, excellent positionaly, is strong and hopefully good in air, to head crosses out of the area, he is also a good decision maker, and solid passer. That is why Fringgs is a good opition at CB for us."

Fair enough. They failed on all those points too.

Suds is right. It's a combination of things. Message boards tend to polarize you to one side or the other of an argument.

[Suds]

BTW - It's not "Frings". According to the commentator last night it's "Fringe" ... just thought I would lighten up the mood in here a bit :)

[DangerRed]

The Colorado game isn't important because the MLS season is already lost. Pumas being superior has no bearing on your point. We still had something to play for in the CCL so we put the strongest squad out.

So if TFC played a United side that murdered Arsenal and did the same to us you would blame our players? Fair enough I guess, I certainly wouldn't.

I do - when playing a vastly superior opponent (like Pumas is) - I expect to get blown out and hope that I am pleasantly surprised.

The way your post reads - it sounds like you think we could match up with Barca on any given day as long as the players gave it there all.

But what if it's tactics rather than the players? Well, then. Time to take a hard look at the guys choosing those tactics, no?

I'm afraid my sense of sarcasm was lost on you up top, my trail of logic was lost on you in the middle and my point overall was lost on you at the bottom. Unless I'm speaking a different language, I don't understand how I could've been any clearer to prevent you from taking my post to mean that I think we can catch up to Barcelona. I'm sorry, I'm not being facetious, but I'm really at a loss when someone so thoroughly misinterprets what I'm trying to say. If you're not picking up what I'm putting down, then I guess I'm going to have to live with you thinking I'm an idiot.

[brad]

The lack of effort was apparent. I do think there are a number of reasons for that though

-only a few days rest since Columbus - we don't have the depth to play two games per week
-travel time to Mexico City
-altitude and pollution

People write off things like altitude and the pollution effect - if you experience them first hand you won't be so quick to write the effects off.

[trane]

It's both I'm afraid. Hand this team over to Mourinho and we still lose to Pumas 9 time out of 10.


No. Hand this team to Mourinho, and we keep the games at low scores, and our chances to win go way up.

Sure maybe at this point, as we are still lacking key players, they win more, but it would not be 9-0-1, but more like 4-3-3. That is way better then 9-0-1. The way we played yesterday I do not think we would even win one game agaist PUMAS. They have offensive players that our too tallented for our defenders, one on one, and our attacking players are not that tallented to out score them on any night. This discrepency is addressed by tactics.

[brad]

I'm afraid my sense of sarcasm was lost on you up top, my trail of logic was lost on you in the middle and my point overall was lost on you at the bottom. Unless I'm speaking a different language, I don't understand how I could've been any clearer to prevent you from taking my post to mean that I think we can catch up to Barcelona. I'm sorry, I'm not being facetious, but I'm really at a loss when someone so thoroughly misinterprets what I'm trying to say. If you're not picking up what I'm putting down, then I guess I'm going to have to live with you thinking I'm an idiot.

By not using sarcasm to get your point across - it seldom comes through clearly in writing.

My interpretation of your post is more or less that "if our players give 100% and get blown out 4-0, regardless of whether or not the oppostion is at our level or one of the best teams in the world - then the problem is with our team" - that's what you wrote. Anyway, I have no interest in discussing semantics further.

[Canary10]

They did move to a 3-4-3 at halftime and the defense for the most part held together in the second half. You can argue they should have started that way and been more defensive minded from the beginning, but I'd rather see a little ambition. But tactical changes were made.

At any rate, it's lunacy to judge this team from game to game. Last Sunday they were gods and JDG thank you threads were going up, today they're the worst team on earth and no one knows what they're doing. That's nonsensical. We're D-W-L-D-W in our past 5 in MLS. That's very good overall form. We have a game against Colorado Saturday where we can continue to build and gel the team and hopefully use to prepare for a must-win CL game next week.

[brad]

No. Hand this team to Mourinho, and we keep the games at low scores, and our chances to win go way up.

Sure maybe at this point, as we are still lacking key players, they win more, but it would not be 9-0-1, but more like 4-3-3. That is way better then 9-0-1. The way we played yesterday I do not think we would even win one game agaist PUMAS.

I'm assuming same personal - not a team that JM improves on. I still say we are going to get outclassed on almost every occasion against a vastly superior team with the talent level we have.

[Suds]

Absolutely. There is a plethora of problems with this team, and anyone who pegs it all on Andy Iro, tactics or Winter alone fails to understand that it takes all kinds of failure to bake the casserole of nonsense that is TFC today.


This should be your new signature. Copyright that shit! :D

[trane]

^ I do not think that they are the worst team ever. My opinion on winter is the same, what he is trying to do, implement the system, is paying off we saw that in Columbus. However, I have been critical of him all year in that he is slow to adapt the system to opponents and situations.

[T-boy]

Who cares? We lose 4-0 playing the way we did, or we lose 2-0 playing Prekiball. It's glaringly obvious Pumas is a superior team, regardless of our tactics.

My point in all this is that there is a HUGE difference in losing 0-4 to 0-2 in this game. We need a better goal difference, and 1 or 2 more goals conceded could make the difference between qualifying or not in the end of the day.

I'd personally prefer that TFC lined up far more conservatively in this game, playing 5-3-2 or 4-5-1 (packing the midfield as much as possible to stifle Pumas) and give us a better chance in the overall qualification.

With this result, TFC now have the worst goal difference in the mini-league!

Fine, play Winter's 4-3-3 at home when we can try and force victory and take it to the opposition - but in away games tlike this one, "Prekiball" would be a much better tactic!

A season is a marathon, not a sprint, and qualification for the next round of the champs league is based on 6 games, not one. We needed to close the game down yesterday and give ourselves a better chance in the OVERALL qualification process. Winter's 4-3-3 system didn't do that at all.

I too, LOVE to see an aggresive flair formation, but you can't play this every game! Sometimes you need to set up differently. Winter seems completely adament that he's going to play the SAME week in week out, no matter home or away, good or bad opponents. Winter needs to rethink this - he needs horses for courses attitute, NOT the same thing every game!

[Canary10]

I still don't see how a 5 man midfield or any other combination would have prevented a couple of players from missing basic tackles.

[dupont]

Those defending mistakes were incredible. It was beyond bad. Such basic mistakes leading to goals make it impossible for me to analyze anything else about the game. We need defenders that can do the very basic requirements before ANY system would work for us.

[Roogsy]

I am not really buying into this game being an indication of anything regarding TFC, just like beating Real Esteli wasn't indicative of anything either. TFC's problems are still the same, especially Winter. I still think he's useless as a coach.

But seriously, we're not out of it yet. Playing Pumas in the DF was never going to be a win, even against the kids. Most of us were hoping for a draw. But let's see how the rest of this plays out. Maybe we can squeak a few wins out of the upcoming games.

As for the excuses, the altitude, the pollution, the unlucky breaks, I am not really buying those either, but that's another discussion. We lost, and we shouldn't have lost that bad, but losing 4-0 or 2-0 or 10-0 doesn't make a difference right now. It's whether we can win some of the games coming up.

By the way, those "defending mistakes" is the quality you get in MLS. We simply have to accept that. The Johnston opportunities to score were also missed, that too is an MLS quality issue. Pumas capitalized on even the most remote opportunities to score on much harder plays than Johnston had. I think the biggest problem with MLS observers is that we forget we are an MLS team with MLS quality. An oversight even our own coach regularly makes.

[T-boy]

I still don't see how a 5 man midfield or any other combination would have prevented a couple of players from missing basic tackles.

The worrying part of last night was the amount of times TFC lost the ball in the middle of the field, giving Pumas a free run at the TFC defense. TFC can make it easier on their defense, or harder. Last night they put pressure on their own inept defenders.

[Suds]

My point in all this is that there is a HUGE difference in losing 0-4 to 0-2 in this game. We need a better goal difference, and 1 or 2 more goals conceded could make the difference between qualifying or not in the end of the day.

I'd personally prefer that TFC lined up far more conservatively in this game, playing 5-3-2 or 4-5-1 (packing the midfield as much as possible to stifle Pumas) and give us a better chance in the overall qualification.

With this result, TFC now have the worst goal difference in the mini-league!

Fine, play Winter's 4-3-3 at home when we can try and force victory and take it to the opposition - but in away games tlike this one, "Prekiball" would be a much better tactic!

A season is a marathon, not a sprint, and qualification for the next round of the champs league is based on 6 games, not one. We needed to close the game down yesterday and give ourselves a better chance in the OVERALL qualification process. Winter's 4-3-3 system didn't do that at all.

I too, LOVE to see an aggresive flair formation, but you can't play this every game! Sometimes you need to set up differently. Winter seems completely adament that he's going to play the SAME week in week out, no matter home or away, good or bad opponents. Winter needs to rethink this - he needs horses for courses attitute, NOT the same thing every game!


Re the 4-5-1. This is essentially what the defensive 4-3-3 can look like. Playing a defensive 4-3-3 formation, the role of the wingers can be to drop back to close off the wings and pressure the in the defensive half. This defensive formation, when the other team controls the ball, allows the 3 midfielders to close the central space while the wingers close out the wings with the outside backs. This in essence makes the defensive formation very close to a 4-5-1. However, it requires very mobile wingers who can transition into an more attacking formation once ball possession is won.

[Oldtimer]

This is what I expected from the game:

(1) if Pumas played the kids - TFC to tie or win. After the coach's comments, that was my expectation. We had a bad surprise.

(2) if Pumas played the first team - TFC to be slaughtered.

I don't know why it has to be so hard. It's no excuse, the quality difference between Mexican teams and MLS is very obvious.

You can point to players, coaching, whatever. It doesn't really matter. The best club in MLS last year couldn't win the CCL, although they came close. TFC is not the best club in MLS ;).

[Canary10]

Re the 4-5-1. This is essentially what the defensive 4-3-3 can look like. Playing a defensive 4-3-3 formation, the role of the wingers can be to drop back to close off the wings and pressure the in the defensive half. This defensive formation, when the other team controls the ball, allows the 3 midfielders to close the central space while the wingers close out the wings with the outside backs. This in essence makes the defensive formation very close to a 4-5-1. However, it requires very mobile wingers who can transition into an more attacking formation once ball possession is won.

That's how it's supposed to be played. The two wingers are really important in a 4-3-3. They need very good fitness!

[rocker]

This is what I expected from the game:

(1) if Pumas played the kids - TFC to tie or win. After the coach's comments, that was my expectation. We had a bad surprise.

(2) if Pumas played the first team - TFC to be slaughtered.

I don't know why it has to be so hard. It's no excuse, the quality difference between Mexican teams and MLS is very obvious.

I agree. Maybe some people were getting giddy with the recent Dallas and Seattle performances in Mexico. But we can all agree that Dallas and Seattle are better teams than TFC at this point. When I was looking at the schedule at the start of the group stage, I wasn't even counting on any points in Mexico. But that's fine. It's one game -- you don't lose a group on one road game. Before Dallas won, Mexico was a wasteland for MLS teams. I remember RSL's Mexico adventure last year -- I believe they lost 5-4... and that's RSL.

And we didn't need points in Mexico if TFC performs well at home and if Dallas doesn't fall apart (1-1 Tauro??? They better wake up for Pumas next week at Frisco).

Another point: overall goal differential is almost irrelevant. Overall goal differential is the 5th tiebreaker. Yes, goal diff between teams tied is the second tiebreaker -- so if we're tied with Pumas in points it matters.
But if we beat Pumas and Tauro and Dallas takes care of Pumas, we won't be tied with Pumas anyways, so that's irrelevant.

In other words, we need to win games at home. If we do, we're probably through. If we're depending on goal difference, then we're probably not getting home points and don't deserve to go to the quarters.

[Heathen]

This is what I expected from the game:

(1) if Pumas played the kids - TFC to tie or win. After the coach's comments, that was my expectation. We had a bad surprise.

(2) if Pumas played the first team - TFC to be slaughtered.

I don't know why it has to be so hard. It's no excuse, the quality difference between Mexican teams and MLS is very obvious.

You can point to players, coaching, whatever. It doesn't really matter. The best club in MLS last year couldn't win the CCL, although they came close. TFC is not the best club in MLS ;).

All 4-0 defeats are not the same, a team can lose 4-0 put in a decent effort and just be beaten by a superior team. What I saw last night was the same glaring frailties that we've seen all season, let's be honest if Pumas had even been bothered in the second half it could easily have been 8 or 10, would you lot have been ok with that?
We started the game well but let a goal in and just completely collapse sorry but that is not acceptable or excusable, altitude or not. There is something seriously wrong when you're substituting central defenders before half-time (and not for the first time this season).

[Oldtimer]

The Mexican teams have decent budgets, certainly a lot higher than ours, but they don't carry 11 multi-million dollar players. Probably more like 4 or 5 in the 1 million range with one or two earning superstar salaries.


The figures I have heard (and there is some secrecy here) is that your typical Mexican first division team has a salary bill over $10 million. How they divide up that moolah, I'm not an expert enough to know.

[Oldtimer]

All 4-0 defeats are not the same, a team can lose 4-0 put in a decent effort and just be beaten by a superior team. What I saw last night was the same glaring frailties that we've seen all season, let's be honest if Pumas had even been bothered in the second half it could easily have been 8 or 10, would you lot have been ok with that?
We started the game well but let a goal in and just completely collapse sorry but that is not acceptable or excusable you're playing altitude or not. There is something seriously wrong when you're substituting central defenders before half-time (and not for the first time this season).

... I agree, the defenders played without heart.

[TFC_Toon]

The ball boys were excellent last night, never any delays getting the ball back in play :rolleyes: That's the only positive thing I noticed about this very forgettable match.

[Pookie]

Another point: overall goal differential is almost irrelevant. Overall goal differential is the 5th tiebreaker. Yes, goal diff between teams tied is the second tiebreaker -- so if we're tied with Pumas in points it matters.
But if we beat Pumas and Tauro and Dallas takes care of Pumas, we won't be tied with Pumas anyways, so that's irrelevant.

In other words, we need to win games at home. If we do, we're probably through. If we're depending on goal difference, then we're probably not getting home points and don't deserve to go to the quarters.

Glad you mentioned the tie breaker. I was arguing with Dunleavy... well, it was one sided... me with the TV... but I won... as he was going on about the importance of the scoreline. Slightly important but mostly irrelevant considering the head to head nature of it.

[Juanito]

This is what I expected from the game:

(1) if Pumas played the kids - TFC to tie or win. After the coach's comments, that was my expectation. We had a bad surprise.

(2) if Pumas played the first team - TFC to be slaughtered.

I don't know why it has to be so hard. It's no excuse, the quality difference between Mexican teams and MLS is very obvious.

You can point to players, coaching, whatever. It doesn't really matter. The best club in MLS last year couldn't win the CCL, although they came close. TFC is not the best club in MLS ;).

I'm NOT trying to point the finger at anyone in particular .....

I find that many North American soccer fans look at Mexico as some backwater shithole and can't wrap their heads around the fact that they have a VERY GOOD LEAGUE that do have millionaire players. A LOT of their players are world-class and a lot of them like to stay home because they would rather be gods at home than to travel to Europe. There are exceptions, but by no means it's the rule.

MLS is INFERIOR to Liga Méxicana in SO MANY WAYS. Just because we have a British guy and a few Europeans does not mean that we are auto-magically superior to the "little dirty Mexicans". We have to scrap the idea of Mexican teams being small and being pushovers, because they are not. Mexican teams will 9 times out of 10 beat us, and once or twice will lay a WHOOPING on us. Yesterday was one of those.

I'm not making excuses, but these are the facts. I find it interesting that many people are surprised that México have good football clubs.

[T-boy]

That's how it's supposed to be played. The two wingers are really important in a 4-3-3. They need very good fitness!

This is the problem that I see, and we have seen, with Winter trying to play this system in the MLS. A team to be GOOD at this "system" needs some very solid defenders, and some VERY energetic wingers. I very much doubt that Winter can get these players, that are good enough, with the salary cap in the MLS.

The teams that have been good at this system are the best teams in the world, or the VERY best in their respective leagues.

I don't think Winter will ever be able to get the personel he needs to make this work consistently. If he gets a winger for a lot of money, then he's not going to be able to get the defenders. If he gets the defenders, then we won't be able to afford the wingers etc etc.

Plata is "pretty" good at the winger roll in this system - but we have to remember that we don't own him, and it might take DP money to buy him from his club.

[Juanito]

^^

Tactically speaking, going 4-5-1 would have been better. If anything, to minimize the amount of goals. Goal differential matters and right now we are MINUS F'ED UP THE ARSE.

[Canary10]

There's absolutely no reason why 4-3-3 can't work in MLS. I know youth teams playing it. Other MLS teams play it. It's not rocket science.

[Canary10]

For all the sky is falling comments here, we're D-W-L-D-W in the past 5 MLS games. That's not bad form.

[Juanito]

For all the sky is falling comments here, we're D-W-L-D-W in the past 5 MLS games. That's not bad form.

:hump: Yes. It's not all bad.

[LesRougez116]

Welcome back. Where were you when TFC won against Columbus? * crickets *

Stop trolling plz

[lobo]

i don't see last night's 0-4 loss having anything to do with 4-3-3 formation, but everything to do with heart and desire ... pumas wanted the win a whole lot more than we did, and it showed on the pitch, they were winning almost all the 1v1's and the 50/50 balls, they applied fast aggressive pressure on us every time we touched the ball, while we applied passive pressure on them the other way, they had awesome passing and sublime touches, we more often than not gave the ball away after our first or second touch ... pumas were faster and more technically skilled, we looked like schoolboys especially off the ball ... and it could have easily been a 0-8 loss but pumas missed some sitters, but i could have accepted even that scoreline against a stronger squad if only we had given it 100% for the full 90 ... down by 4 goals in the 2nd and we were just going through the motions waiting for the final whistle, very disappointing effort by our boys

shake it off

[Oldtimer]

There's absolutely no reason why 4-3-3 can't work in MLS. I know youth teams playing it. Other MLS teams play it. It's not rocket science.

I used it when I coached youth soccer, and I had no trouble finding the personnel to play it... they did find the concept hard at first... and yes the team had a winning record.

[rocker]

Goal differential matters and right now we are MINUS F'ED UP THE ARSE.

No, overall goal differential doesn't matter that much. It's the 5th tiebreaker, way down the list of tiebreakers. So being in the minus isn't that big of a deal right now.

Now, if teams are tied on points, then the "Greater goal difference in matches between the teams concerned" is the second tiebreaker (the first tiebreaker being the number of points between teams that are tied in the overall group standings).

In other words, the goal difference tiebreaker #5 will probably never be required, and the goal difference tiebreaker #2 will only matter against Pumas if we beat Pumas at BMO and end up tied on points at the end with them. The goal difference tiebreaker #2 will not matter against Dallas if we beat them at Pizza Hut and end up tied on points with them, but #3 (away goals between teams tied) could come into play.... if we were to beat Dallas 1-0 and were tied on total points, Dallas could beat us on rule #5.

So yeah, goal difference isn't something to get too worried about. Just get the points and the rest will be irrelevant. If we don't beat at least one of them, we won't have enough points to worry about being tied anyways.

[bman27]

It's been noted that Iro can be effective if he has a smart, skilled partner @ center-back with him, you can call Ty Harden many things- Smart and skilled arn't two of them.

This game to me, reinforced the fact that to compete in the style of play we are striving to use, we need to bring in a Dp- Quality CB for next season. This would mean dropping De Guzman's Dp contract. I have been pleasently surprised with how well he has played since the arrival of Frings, but at this point It's obvious that he is not DP quality in this league.

Now with a DP CB, the question would become who would play with him next season? is it Iro, given we gave up so much to get him? Is it Williams who looked promising before his injury? Our former player of the year in Cann, or do you give it to Henry, and let him grow beside a (hopefully) Top quality Defender. Anyway way you look at it, It will be intresting to see how our management approches this situation in the off season.

[rocker]

This game to me, reinforced the fact that to compete in the style of play we are striving to use, we need to bring in a Dp- Quality CB for next season. This would mean dropping De Guzman's Dp contract. I have been pleasently surprised with how well he has played since the arrival of Frings, but at this point It's obvious that he is not DP quality in this league.

Now with a DP CB, the question would become who would play with him next season? is it Iro, given we gave up so much to get him? Is it Williams who looked promising before his injury? Our former player of the year in Cann, or do you give it to Henry, and let him grow beside a (hopefully) Top quality Defender. Anyway way you look at it, It will be intresting to see how our management approches this situation in the off season.

If De Guz was willing to take less in some buyout, and thus no longer be a DP, then I'd love to keep him and get that DP CB.

I'd play him with Williams, since Williams seems to also have some passing ability and is relatively physically strong. Cann would also be a good partner, given his experience and size, although he can't pass, but I think grooming Williams would be best with a veteran DP CB alongside him. I would have one of Iro or Harden as a backup to Williams/Cann, only to be used in case of injury or tiredness. Henry is still not ready, in my opinion. The big question is can you get a DP CB in January, when the Euro leagues are still going and the best are employed?

We need Eckersley back though. Cuz if we lose Eck, then we suddenly are back to square one at right back, another hole opened up.

[BFin]

It's been noted that Iro can be effective if he has a smart, skilled partner @ center-back with him, you can call Ty Harden many things- Smart and skilled arn't two of them.

So Iro is better when he plays with a player better than himself?

Couldn't the same be said for Harden? 'Harden can be effective when he is paired with a smart, skilled player @ center-back with him, you can call Andy Iro many things- Smart and skilled arn't two of them.'

[phonzo]

But Iro himself isn't smart...he didn't challenge for the ball half the time...he just let it play when he shouldn't have. Guy is a dud.

[Canary10]

I think he's gunshy about tackling in the box given the number of penalties he's give up this year.

[__wowza]

Couldn't the same be said for Harden? 'Harden can be effective when he is paired with a smart, skilled player @ center-back with him, you can call Andy Iro many things- Smart and skilled arn't two of them.'

to be perfectly honest, i didn't mind harden last year. he had a few good showings before he got his shin tore up in the vancouver match, i thought he was decent and he clicked better with attakora.

[trane]

I have always played CB, and I think it is a key position to build a solid team. But the kind of quality CB you would need to get to make a difference is not going to be comming to the MLS. CBs are not cheap and ones that can play are playing longer and longer ( stamina is not as much of a factor in the position as in others-nesta is 35) an older effecitve CB will still be a comodity in Europe at least for depth, or for teams looking for short term solutions as they move up. A CB like Materazzi, would be expensive, and is likely to broken down to make a difference anywere. Plus if you are getting 2 or 3 on 1 situations all the time you would need Cannavaro in 2006 form to make any kind of difference. We give up to much space and our CBs are isolated to often.

[T-boy]

I think we are all forgetting that Iro was MVP for the MLS cup winners two season's ago! I can't see "a complete dud with no skill or desire" being the MVP in that team?!

Can a guy who is most important player in the best team in the league now be the worst player in the worst team in the league?!?!!?! Is that even possible?!

I would suggest that this means that TFC aren't playing to his strengths, rather than Iro has lost all skill in the last season!

[Fort York Redcoat]

Iro hasn't lost every his skill but Columbus didn't trade us an MVP.

[Yohan]

I think we are all forgetting that Iro was MVP for the MLS cup winners two season's ago! I can't see "a complete dud with no skill or desire" being the MVP in that team?!

Can a guy who is most important player in the best team in the league now be the worst player in the worst team in the league?!?!!?! Is that even possible?!

I would suggest that this means that TFC aren't playing to his strengths, rather than Iro has lost all skill in the last season!
Columbus plays slightly more attacking game than Preki ball, hence playing to Iro's strengths.

[billyfly]

I'm glad the Toronto Star doesn;t cover TFC.

(has anyone made that joke yet?)

[T-boy]

Columbus plays slightly more attacking game than Preki ball, hence playing to Iro's strengths.

So, basically, Winter, or whoever chose Iro as their big summer defensive signing, made a giant ass boo-boo by signing a player who doesn't fit "the system"?

I still say Iro will go down in history as TFC's worse signing, especially seeing how much we had to trade to get him here! It would be like Man Utd currently trading Rooney (their number one striker), and Cleverley (their big young prospect) for Titus Bramble!

[Yohan]

So, basically, Winter, or whoever chose Iro as their big summer defensive signing, made a giant ass boo-boo by signing a player who doesn't fit "the system"?

I still say Iro will go down in history as TFC's worse signing, especially seeing how much we had to trade to get him here! It would be like Man Utd currently trading Rooney (their number one striker), and Cleverley (their big young prospect) for Titus Bramble!
I think Iro was a bit of panic buy, and so far one of few bad signings Mariner made. Defence was shambles, and Mariner tried to get anyone who might remotely be 'good'.

Iro does not have the skill set to play Winter's style of footy. Then again, Winter's style of footy requires TFC to sign some of the best defenders in MLS, and ones with very specific skill sets. Like, Geoff Cameron.

[Suds]

I'm glad the Toronto Star doesn;t cover TFC.

(has anyone made that joke yet?)


nope ... funny though :)

[Canary10]

"I think we are all forgetting that Iro was MVP for the MLS cup winners two season's ago! I can't see "a complete dud with no skill or desire" being the MVP in that team?!"

I think we established on another thread that he wasn't actually "MVP" but won the most coachable player or something along that line. I'll leave it to everyone to decide for themselves what "most coachable player means."

[Pookie]

So, basically, Winter, or whoever chose Iro as their big summer defensive signing, made a giant ass boo-boo by signing a player who doesn't fit "the system"?

I still say Iro will go down in history as TFC's worse signing, especially seeing how much we had to trade to get him here! It would be like Man Utd currently trading Rooney (their number one striker), and Cleverley (their big young prospect) for Titus Bramble!

Holy exaggeration batman!

Trading Tchani, who is injured and out for the season, is like trading Rooney?????

As a Chelsea fan, I fully endorse this comparison. :hump:

[Pookie]

"I think we are all forgetting that Iro was MVP for the MLS cup winners two season's ago! I can't see "a complete dud with no skill or desire" being the MVP in that team?!"

I think we established on another thread that he wasn't actually "MVP" but won the most coachable player or something along that line. I'll leave it to everyone to decide for themselves what "most coachable player means."

Iro's contract is up at the end of this season.

There are a few players that I'd rather see move on before they get to walking away from Iro.

He has made some mistakes sure. But has been effective at other times as well. As a reserve, he's a definite strength to have in terms of both attitude and size.

[__wowza]

I think we are all forgetting that Iro was MVP for the MLS cup winners two season's ago! I can't see "a complete dud with no skill or desire" being the MVP in that team?!

Can a guy who is most important player in the best team in the league now be the worst player in the worst team in the league?!?!!?! Is that even possible?!

I would suggest that this means that TFC aren't playing to his strengths, rather than Iro has lost all skill in the last season!

let's not forget that this was two seasons ago with a different team (and he wasn't MVP when they won the cup, schelotto was. he wasn't their MVP EVER, not sure where you got that from). players form and fortune can change in football, let's not ever forget that.

from what i've heard about attakora, san jose supporters are calling him shit and calling him depth, not that bad for a starting defender who was up for RPB player of the year. from what i read on crew form on BS, iro was falling out of form and fans were calling the trade incredibly lopsided in their favour.


not everyone we trade for/out turns into a superstar/shit, and not everyone clicks with the team they get.

[Yohan]

Iro's contract is up at the end of this season.

There are a few players that I'd rather see move on before they get to walking away from Iro.

He has made some mistakes sure. But has been effective at other times as well. As a reserve, he's a definite strength to have in terms of both attitude and size.
I dunno. I'm not sure if TFC can afford the time to teach Iro how to play Winter football. At 26, he seems to be missing key attributes required to play for TFC and I'm not sure he's got the brains to make up for this.

IMO Iro is the stronger, but slower version of Marco Velez (Velez had his share of decent games too)

[T-boy]

I dunno. I'm not sure if TFC can afford the time to teach Iro how to play Winter football. At 26, he seems to be missing key attributes required to play for TFC and I'm not sure he's got the brains to make up for this.

IMO Iro is the stronger, but slower version of Marco Velez (Velez had his share of decent games too)

If you listen to interviews with Iro, he sounds like he's an intellegent guy. I just don't think his body is up to it - he seems so slow on the first two or three yards of play. You can see he's thinking through his actions, but by the time his body has moved, he's either fouled somebody or let somebody go past him.

I wonder if Iro has had an injury before he came to TFC that has really slowed him down? You can see in his face sometimes that he is as frustrated as us, he WANTS to get to the ball, but his body just isn't letting him!

[T-boy]

Holy exaggeration batman!

Trading Tchani, who is injured and out for the season, is like trading Rooney?????

As a Chelsea fan, I fully endorse this comparison. :hump:

Ok ok ok!

How about Trading Drogba and McEachran for Bramble?!

(and the Drogba part of this is DeRo....obviously :p )

[Pookie]

^ must... not... respond... DeRo.... can't... help..... myself... must..... not.... type.... DeRo... unlike... any... footballer.... before.... more... like.... NHL's.... Alexei.... Yashin.....

Were was my support group/Non-respond to a DeRo Topic in a Thread Sponsor on that one?

[Yohan]

If you listen to interviews with Iro, he sounds like he's an intellegent guy. I just don't think his body is up to it - he seems so slow on the first two or three yards of play. You can see he's thinking through his actions, but by the time his body has moved, he's either fouled somebody or let somebody go past him.

I wonder if Iro has had an injury before he came to TFC that has really slowed him down? You can see in his face sometimes that he is as frustrated as us, he WANTS to get to the ball, but his body just isn't letting him!
Possibly. IIRC Iro did have couple of bad injuries before.

[redcard]

I still don't see how a 5 man midfield or any other combination would have prevented a couple of players from missing basic tackles.

watching the game last night...it was obvious defenders were not marking tight with pumas and hence letting them walk into the box, as well as playing the attachers on side by being lazy and not moving up with the rest of the defenders...all of these issues were pointed out even by the commentators last night...its not related to tactics but pure laziness...on the part of a couple of players...

[brad]

If you listen to interviews with Iro, he sounds like he's an intellegent guy. I just don't think his body is up to it - he seems so slow on the first two or three yards of play. You can see he's thinking through his actions, but by the time his body has moved, he's either fouled somebody or let somebody go past him.

I wonder if Iro has had an injury before he came to TFC that has really slowed him down? You can see in his face sometimes that he is as frustrated as us, he WANTS to get to the ball, but his body just isn't letting him!

I think he's always been slow.

Iro seems clumsy on the ball. Seems like he is tripping over it when ever he tries to do anything with it. I wonder if Columbus had him play as a basic ball winner without any sorted of added "cerebral" expectations like distribution out of the back.

I think he is probably better than what we are seeing. I suspect that coming in when he wasn't match fit, getting thrown into an uncomfortable position and then having some really bad screw ups has dented his confidence. Confidence plays a huge role out there.

[trane]

^ He looks hesitant. I know for me, I only ever played CB, from the age of 6 to today, that, when you feel under great pressure, you started thinking to fast, and moving to slow. The ideal for a CB in my experience, is being in deep concetration and aggresive not overly so. If you become hesitant and nervous you get killed. In his poor games Iro looks just that hesitant and nervous, is not sure if to get close and physical or keep position and space, and he ends up doing neither, or being clumsily physical, and hence the fouls.

[J .]

Iro was an MVP under Schimd as Schmid had good fullbacks and a style that encouraged teams to cross into the box, but was rather tidy in the middle of the park.

Schmid is one of the best coaches in MLS history, he made a very average defender look very good.

Iro is not great, he isnt horrible either. Our backline has four CB's who have basically the same skill sets. We definately need improvement in terms of personnel, but losing by such massive margins isnt solely on the players. They need to be put into positions to succeed.

[brad]

Come to think of it - Iro played next to Marshall who is one of the best one CB's in the league. Maybe he is the type that needs a stronger partner to play off.

[jloome]

I think we are all forgetting that Iro was MVP for the MLS cup winners two season's ago! I can't see "a complete dud with no skill or desire" being the MVP in that team?!

Can a guy who is most important player in the best team in the league now be the worst player in the worst team in the league?!?!!?! Is that even possible?!

I would suggest that this means that TFC aren't playing to his strengths, rather than Iro has lost all skill in the last season!

Andy Iro was never the Crew MVP.

He won the coaches' award in 2010 as the "most coachable" player in the first team, and was picked by several critics and fan groups as most improved player.

He was drafted in 2008.

[Darlofletch]

Come to think of it - Iro played next to Marshall who is one of the best one CB's in the league. Maybe he is the type that needs a stronger partner to play off.

bingo. big difference between playing with marshall amid a very good crew team, and being asked to be the man to fix tfc's defence.

[Pookie]

Come to think of it - Iro played next to Marshall who is one of the best one CB's in the league. Maybe he is the type that needs a stronger partner to play off.

I'd say almost all "non-stronger" players would fit this description, no?

Generally, an average player will have better results when surrounded by better players. And it would be foolish to expect an average player to single handedly turn a team around. By definition, they are average.

That said, you need average players. And beyond skill, you need players that contribute to a positive attitude around the team and don't sulk about their lot.

Iro's contract is up at the end of the season. I think he could be a very solid contributor to a team that improves its backline.

[Gazza]

Did we win? I just sobered up from the Columbus game.

[BFin]

Come to think of it - Iro played next to Marshall who is one of the best one CB's in the league. Maybe he is the type that needs a stronger partner to play off.

How is this not the same for Harden or any other generic mid-level player in the league? I hear Stefan Frei has better results in goal when he plays with top-tier defenders in front of him as well. Can be said for any position in nearly any sport.

Have we gone from criticizing Iro about everything to defending him about everything? I don't think he's the worst defender in the world but I certainly don't want to give someone excuses because they play better when they have smart, skilled defenders playing around them. That is essentially saying "Iro isn't very good, but he is serviceable when he has talented players around him to cover his mistakes."

He is what he is. A reserve or spot starter defender, why do we have to read into it any more than that?

[DangerRed]

How is this not the same for Harden or any other generic mid-level player in the league? I hear Stefan Frei has better results in goal when he plays with top-tier defenders in front of him as well. Can be said for any position in nearly any sport.

Have we gone from criticizing Iro about everything to defending him about everything? I don't think he's the worst defender in the world but I certainly don't want to give someone excuses because they play better when they have smart, skilled defenders playing around them. That is essentially saying "Iro isn't very good, but he is serviceable when he has talented players around him to cover his mistakes."

He is what he is. A reserve or spot starter defender, why do we have to read into it any more than that?

I totally agree. Using this silly logic, it's pretty obvious that I would play better at forward if I had Lio Messi next to me rather than my overweight, unskilled buddy, huffing and puffing after the ball.

You'd also very likely have a better team if Mourinho was coaching it instead of Winter. :D

[Canary10]

The question is, does a really good player get brought down by a really bad player? If we put Vidic in our central defence, would he become Garcia?

[Fort York Redcoat]

No. He becomes...

http://www.c-pol.com/Fun/CaptainHyperbole.jpg

or perhaps Marco!....



...Velez!!!

[trane]

The question is, does a really good player get brought down by a really bad player? If we put Vidic in our central defence, would he become Garcia?

No. But he would not look as effective as he does at Man U.

[brad]

How is this not the same for Harden or any other generic mid-level player in the league? I hear Stefan Frei has better results in goal when he plays with top-tier defenders in front of him as well. Can be said for any position in nearly any sport.

The difference is that two years ago Iro was a starting CB in the best team in the league, and Harden was not. That is the difference. I am interested in how Iro has gone from that to what we see, and if it is fixable.

Harden has always been crap.

[brad]

I totally agree. Using this silly logic, it's pretty obvious that I would play better at forward if I had Lio Messi next to me rather than my overweight, unskilled buddy, huffing and puffing after the ball.

How does Messi or you fat buddy who can't play have any relation to this discussion? Throwing in the extremes is a pointless attempt to misdirect the argument because neither will ever play in the MLS.

We have two below average CB's, and if we replaced one with a good quality MLS, would the other fall into line and be serviceable?

I think Iro might based on past performances with the Crew. I don't think Harden would.

I'm sure you are also aware that there is more to improving the players next to you than technical ability - there are leadership and organizational traits that make other players better around them (something that Messi doesn't have btw - not sure about your fat buddy though :))


You'd also very likely have a better team if Mourinho was coaching it instead of Winter. :D

Twisting my words. I never said we would not be better with Mourinho over Winter (we would), I said with this group of players we would not be good enough to beat a side like Pumas even with Mourinho.

[BFin]

The difference is that two years ago Iro was a starting CB in the best team in the league, and Harden was not. That is the difference. I am interested in how Iro has gone from that to what we see, and if it is fixable.

Harden has always been crap.

And wasn't Harden the LA Galaxy defensive MVP as well?

What is your point?

[brad]

And wasn't Harden the LA Galaxy defensive MVP as well?

Defender of the year in 2007 when the Galaxy where the 3rd worst team in the league and and had the second worst goals against in the league (we were were the worst - by one goa)l. Not a ringing endorsement.


What is your point?Iro is obviously bad for us. Two years ago he was a starter for the best team in the league where he won the supporters shield and MLS cup. I'm wondering out loud really what it is that has made him go from where he was to where he is now and if he is a complete write off or has potential to play at the level he did. Time will tell...

Comparing his MLS pedigree to Harden is pointless. For the reasons I listed above.

[BFin]

Okay, once and for all. Please show me an article that shows Iro as the MVP and not Schelotto. Can you please do that for me? Harden WAS the actual MVP for his team. Iro was not. Even with that in mind MVP awards are entirely subjective and do nothing to prove that a player is better than another, my point was that Iro is in the same boat as every other MLS fringe starter...they'd be better with a superior player flanking them.

Now that we know Iro didn't win an MVP award, can you admit that he never was that good of a player? He is a spot-starter and reserve player...that's what he always will be. He hasn't gained or lost any of his abilities, he is what he is and always will be.

Comparing their MLS pedigrees is pointless, I agree. But, not for any of the reasons you have listed.

[brad]

Never said Iro was MVP nor do I care. MVP is pointless.

And no - I won't admit he was a bad player until you back up your assertstion that he was not a good player when playing for the dominant team.

[BFin]

That wasn't my assertion. My assertion was that he is the same as the majority of MLS players, alright.

My exact quote was "my point was that Iro is in the same boat as every other MLS fringe starter...they'd be better with a superior player flanking them."

All this talk about 'better with a skilled player beside him' and 'he used to be good'...it's all bunk. He was never great and every single person in this world is better at what they do when they are paired with someone more skilled and smart than themselves.

Final time: IRO IS WHAT HE IS.

[DangerRed]

Never said Iro was MVP nor do I care. MVP is pointless.

And no - I won't admit he was a bad player until you back up your assertstion that he was not a good player when playing for the dominant team.

Who gives a shit about his past? He's a useless pylon for Toronto, a penalty waiting to happen every game and it matters little whether that's because better MLS-pedigree players are next to him or not, or whether our coach is shit or not. What matters is that he cannot be a starter as part of the current squad. Period, full stop. What else is there to argue about here?

[Derko]

Keep to the point, we lost because Pumas took advantage of poor defending, and fielded a far better team than in the previous 2 matches, TFC just weren't good enough to beat Pumas, rather simple isn't it. If TFC had gone up 1-nil in the first 5 minutes, may have been a different game!

[__wowza]

Never said Iro was MVP nor do I care. MVP is pointless.

And no - I won't admit he was a bad player until you back up your assertstion that he was not a good player when playing for the dominant team.

burden of proof was on you my friend. you made the claims, you have to provide proof to back him up. you can't just come in here, whip yer nuts out and say "prove me wrong".. but, because this is the internet i'd like to take this opportunity to prove you wrong..


TAKEN FROM THE ANDY IRO TRADE THREAD ON BIGSOCCERS COLUMBUS BOARD:


"Two malcontents out, one high-potential GA player in."

"I wasn't a fan of Iro playing back there constantly not compensating for his lack of speed, but I also don't like getting nothing for a player. What was his salary this year?"

"Let's see: move two guys who barely play for a guy who will instantly compete for a starting spot.

No brainer. Great move by the Crew."

"I like Andy, but I'm was never convinced he was a starter. He had a good year last year, but I still thought Brunner was the better choice. The decision to protect Iro over Brunner is looking really bad now."

"Iro was a just CB cover"



after hearing what his teams supporters said about him after the trade, would you care to make your rebuttal?

[lobo]

Keep to the point, we lost because Pumas took advantage of poor defending, and fielded a far better team than in the previous 2 matches, TFC just weren't good enough to beat Pumas, rather simple isn't it. If TFC had gone up 1-nil in the first 5 minutes, may have been a different game!

Pumas played not only with more skill, but with stronger heart and desire to win. We gave up early.

[JuliquE]

Sorry, for the randomness.. but I just figured out who the "big-gun" striker, for Pumas, reminded me of:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/JuliquE/005CDM_Craig_Bierko_002.jpg

http://www.rednationonline.ca/DesktopModules/Markit.SlideShow/ImageHandler.ashx?img=/Portals/0/SlideShow_Photos/3615/tfcpum_pic1_sept14_11.jpg&w=654&h=385&Q=0&PortalID=0


:D :D

[ArmenJBX]

I thought Iro had a decent game. Yes, he's clumsy but physically he's a dominator and, with proper direction, he could work in our system.