What have we been missing the last 5 years.

[mastermixer]

The only consistent thing we can say about TFC is that they have been consistantly bad. But what is it exactly that this team has had going against them these past 5 years. Is it solely MoJo's fault? Is it injuries from bad training facilities, or bad training techniques provided by the team? Or is TFC just cursed?

[s2cazz]

Wins

/end thread

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Mojo for 4 of those years (and indirectly at fault for the 5 cuz if he hadnt fucked us for the other 4 we wouldnt have had to find a new coach for the 5th). MLSE is to blame a bit for the 5th too as they waited too long to find Winter. Shoulda been in place long before January

[Beach_Red]

No, it's always been higher up than the GM level - TFC needs a president, always has and still does.

Who's going to evaluate the job being done by the soccer guys now? Another consultant? Someone at MLSE?

TFC needs a president with a lifetime of experience in the soccer world who answers directly to the board.

[TFC USA]

Intelligence.

[nfitz]

A thread to state the obvious.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

A thread to state the obvious.

BWAHAHAHAHA

[Dreadlocks]

Some sort of stability would be nice

[Azerban]

a mascot throwing t-shirts into the stands

the crucial last piece

[mclaren]

A fanbase that cares. Murphy's Law thus dictates we will suck forever.

[brad]

A team. MoJo collect players that he could get and they were seldom the ones we needed. When we had a glut of central mids and now wide players, he'd get another central mid.

That, and we have never had a good CB except when Tebeily was here and that was to short of a stint to count.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Some sort of stability would be nice

this helps too.
Stability with people who know what they are doing

[eustacchio]

Wins.

That was my immediate response. Now I'll go back and read the thread.

[eustacchio]

Wins

/end thread
hahahaha...first post.

[eustacchio]

Seriously though. It definitely comes down to stability. There's been so much turnover, how do you learn to play with/for somebody?

also, this is Toronto.

[[NBF]]

IMO the team has been missing alot of things, but mainly what it has been missing is vision. There were alot of rumours floating around year 2-4 about big signings but they never materialized. I think the big name signings like Dichio, Robinson, and Brennan can be compared to the new singings of Eckersley(loan), Koevermans, and Frings when you look at the increase in talent level in the MLS from 2007 to 2011.

If anything this team looks like it could be on the verge of moving over that rebuilding hump in 2012. I think Aron Winter has realized that the team he has now is good enough to go Head-to-Head with the rest of the league and is only a few key signings away from competing with the best and making a run to the playoffs similar to the TFC 2009 team.



What Have We Been Missing The Last 5 Years?.....other than depth...this=>


The Best of 2007:

---------------------Stamatopolous---------------------
Wynne------Marshall-------------(Missing)------Dunivant
--------------------------------------------------------
(Missing)-----Edu---------------Robinson--------Brennan
--------------------------------------------------------
------------Dichio---------------(Missing)---------------

The Best of 2008:


------------------------Sutton--------------------------
Wynne------(Missing)------------(Missing)-------Brennan
--------------------------------------------------------
Ricketts-----Guevara-------------Robinson------(Missing)
--------------------------------------------------------
-------------Dichio---------------Barrett----------------

Best of 2009:

-------------------------Frei---------------------------
Wynne------Serioux-------------(Missing)-------Brennan
--------------------------------------------------------
Cronin------Guevara-------------Robinson------DeRosario
--------------------------------------------------------
-------------Barrett-------------(Missing)---------------

Best of 2010:

-------------------------Frei---------------------------
(Missing)------Attakora----------Cann----------(Missing)
--------------------------------------------------------
(Missing)----LeBrocca----------DeGuzman------DeRosario
--------------------------------------------------------
-------------Barrett------------(Missing)---------------

Best of 2011:

-------------------------Frei---------------------------
Eckersley---------Iro----------(Missing)--------(Missing)
-------------------------------------------------------
------------------------Frings--------------------------
-------------DeGuzman---------Johnson----------------
Martina--------------------------------------------Plata
----------------------Koevermans----------------------

[Cashcleaner]

No, it's always been higher up than the GM level - TFC needs a president, always has and still does.

Who's going to evaluate the job being done by the soccer guys now? Another consultant? Someone at MLSE?

TFC needs a president with a lifetime of experience in the soccer world who answers directly to the board.

So much THIS.

Look, Mo Johnston didn't hire himself. And he didn't decide for himself that he would stay with the organization for 4 years.

Rather, it was Tom Anselmi who offered him his position and let him stick with it despite the abysmal results and growing dressing room divisions.

From Day 1 we have needed a dedicated TFC Club President with the experienced required to compete and thrive in this league.

[Super]

Tom Anselmi is to blame.

[mastermixer]

Tom Anselmi is to blame.

Other than losing, This guy has been one of the only consistent things around TFC.

[__wowza]

Other than losing, This guy has been one of the only consistent things around TFC.


http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9681182.jpg

[Ultra & Proud]

How you can write 'Best of' and have Chad Barrett's name there two years in a row is beyond me.

[Blazer]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3547/3457779441_f30e95297d_o.jpg

[Ultra & Proud]

A truly consolidated SSG supporters area (ie. most of the south end) that is FILLED with SSGs or those who want to partake in what we do.

And wins.

[Globetrotter]

Martina??? You put Martina in your "Best of '11"???? He's not even a player they dress for the bench anymore!

I'd just like to make a reminder of some predictions in March about our boy Martina.


March 31, 2011

Not sure that our current setup is better than some of our older lineups. Martina might be the next Ricketts (Ricketts did have a multi goal game too i believe). Stefanovic might be a Jarrod Smith. Sturgis, Bouchiba, Gargan, Youras..., Plata??? I'm sure we've had better. Santos always has potential to fit in and rock, but he has traveled the world for a reason hasn't he?



Are you serious?????

Martina was signed by the ajax senior team until an ill timed injury at the end of his contract screwed him. Ricketts was a youth player that never made it past the youth ranks.

Stevanovic is co-owned by one of the biggest teams in the world and was signed by arguably the best manager in the world, Mourhino.
Jarrod Smith was signed as a free agent from the middle of nowhere....


:facepalm::smilielol5:



Oh, but that's right... Martina is an Ajax product, so that defaults him to being amazing. You know, because all superstars that are in their early 20's travel to North America, and NOT to Europe.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

A truly consolidated SSG supporters area (ie. most of the south end) that is FILLED with SSGs or those who want to partake in what we do.

And wins.

'Round here, "SSG" has one meaning and one meaning only, and it typically looks like this:

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=2733

[__wowza]

'Round here, "SSG" has one meaning and one meaning only, and it typically looks like this:

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=2733

i loved her and her brother in the matrix!!
http://www.wavewrights.com/fiction/twins.jpg

[flambe]

Coach stability, roster stability and players that have enough heart/desire for the badge to grind out a win.

[Belfast_Boy]

Owners that care about winning. has to come from the top.

[Oblio2]

Cheaper Beer?

[MartinUtd]

I've gotta agree with the Anselmi hate.

Who gave Mo 4 years?
Who refused to sign a DP until the silence was deafening?
Who let some random suit with a beard sign players when no management structure was in place?
Who made TV deals that ensured the fewest amount of people could watch the team away from home?
Who was responsible for doubling ticket prices in 5 short years?

There's more probably more boondoggles but these are just the ones off the top of my head.

[maninb]

Martina being in the "Best of 2011" was VERY VERY FUNNY....whoever posted that must be REALLY high!!!

[maninb]

Good Lord!!! Just saw SSG from Aug 5th.....Could be the BEST I've ever seen......Aye carumba!!!

[MisterMacphisto]

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9681182.jpg


Owners that care about winning. has to come from the top.

This.

Him and Paul Bernie. Based on his tweets, he pretty much takes this whole thing as a joke. When we lose, he jokes. When supporters are upset, he jokes... often with condescension and platitudes.

There is no way in hell that these guys are truly passionate about this club winning championships. Period.

If anything, they are passionate about this franchise being commercially successful, but even if it was just that, they are failing.

Clubs and organizations that are run by passionate people very often do well. Look at Mark Cuban and the Mavericks etc.. Behind most successful clubs, you'll probably find passionate owners / management.

You can go through the right motions in putting a club together, but if the passion and desire from the top is not there, I don't think the odds are on your side to be successful. I've come to the sad realization that as long as MLSE is running this show, they will probably never truly get this whole thing. As a result from that top down problem, we'll never really see support in the stands at BMO like Portland or Seattle.

I think it's a true testament to supporters in RPB, U-Sector and NEE how much support this team still receives in spite of everything.

Things like them giving up control over a supporters section or worrying about placement of advertising banners will never let us have a true supporters section.

The damage has already been done with FO's reputation of player handling and management of the club. There's just so much bad blood about TFC out there.

FO played their cards with the price increase on seats when we were a multi-year losing club. It wasn't the actual $ amount, it was the message they sent supporters. I don't think they realize just how much damage they did. I know I've never felt the same way about things since. The town hall we had and are going to have will probably just be more platitudes.

Anyways... We're probably stuck with MLSE, but the only way I can see changing what we are missing, is wiping out TFC management and getting in a President of the club who actually gets football, who's mandate was win championships and support the supporters to do their thing. I think they'd be very pleasantly surprised that huge commercial success would follow. I think they are in for a heap of trouble with season renewals for the middle seats next season, and the mythical waiting list that never was. Maybe that's what needs to happen to get real change we need.

I'm all for stability in coaching and the team on the pitch. If anything, we simply can't go through yet another coaching change, no coach will ever want to coach here. I am all for change in the suits.

My own personal 2¢.

[Canary10]

The moves they have made recently don't smack of an owner who is looking only for short term profit. I haven't seen this new training facility for the academy, but there's probably a lot of money invested in that. Having an under 12 team, scouts to find youth players. It sounds like a team building to be a solid footballing club for the long-term, not a team looking to do the least possible.

[Oldtimer]

Cheaper Beer?

Certainly. The team might still lose, but people would care less! :D

[__wowza]

The moves they have made recently don't smack of an owner who is looking only for short term profit. I haven't seen this new training facility for the academy, but there's probably a lot of money invested in that. Having an under 12 team, scouts to find youth players. It sounds like a team building to be a solid footballing club for the long-term, not a team looking to do the least possible.


there's a difference between an owner who cares about winning and an owner who cares about profit margin. a good youth academy is a good investment, although i'll admit that there are exceptions.

it allows you to bring in cheap youth talent and either use them for cheaper, cut them, on sell them at a profit. with the competitive nature of the league increasing, this is the next logical step. when you bring in an MLS veteran whose played for 3/4 different teams, you'll be assed to get them to sign for less.


my grievance comes with an owner who cares about two things: winning and understand the fans. the first point on there seems to be a runoff from the economical standpoint, if we win, will it generate more revenue. it's not the same thing. as for the fans, ive summed it up in thread about the timbers supporters and i'll echo it here..


"aside from the town halls, which were a last minute resort to avert all hell breaking loose, what have MLSE done to acknowledge the diehard support they receive from groups like this? the supporters entrance (don't worry.. we'll get that iron gate someday..)?

i said it at the town hall and i'll say it again, except this time i wont have my hand up for an hour and a half, we're called "a very vocal minority" by our owners and "the most important x-factor imaginable" by outr former captain jimmy b. whenever we net a goal, whenever we're scored on, whenever they need promotional material or whenever they want to point out reason to buy stock to the folks up in the VIP seats.. they're ultimately pointing their cameras on us."

[MisterMacphisto]

The moves they have made recently don't smack of an owner who is looking only for short term profit. I haven't seen this new training facility for the academy, but there's probably a lot of money invested in that. Having an under 12 team, scouts to find youth players. It sounds like a team building to be a solid footballing club for the long-term, not a team looking to do the least possible.

Most MLS teams either have or are building academies and have scouts. Dollars to doughnuts, MLSE sees $ potential of the academy after they witnessed the ~ 5 Million transfer fee we got for Edu.

As I said, ownerships can go through some of the motions. A club needs to have a soul and have real passion for success. It's more than just having financial resources at your disposal and being able to throw money at things.

[Canary10]

Also helped us get two DPs. Frings said specifically on his website when he first signed he came to TO because he didn't want to play in front of empty stadiums. ie. Red Bull Arena, etc.. The die hard fans are a big reason for that.

What do you want for recognition? (my tickets aren't in the supporters sections, but I do consider myself diehard).

[Canary10]

Most MLS teams either have or are building academies and have scouts. Dollars to doughnuts, MLSE sees $ potential of the academy after they witnessed the ~ 5 Million transfer fee we got for Edu.

As I said, ownerships can go through some of the motions. A club needs to have a soul and have real passion for success. It's more than just having financial resources at your disposal and being able to throw money at things.

A rich, workaholic man can get his secretary to send his son an expensive gift at on his birthday, doesn't mean he's being a good Dad.

The scouting system is resembling Ajax at this point. So I think we're ahead of the curve on that. But I get your point. As we've seen during the transfer market, there is insane amounts of money involved in selling players and I'm sure the ownership think they can get a piece of that market.

If heart and soul is what you're looking for, Winter really is the kind of guy you want involved in this team. He gave everything to his club and country, never complained about backing up bigger stars when it happened, played any role asked of him, and was quality through and through.

[MisterMacphisto]

The scouting system is resembling Ajax at this point. So I think we're ahead of the curve on that. But I get your point. As we've seen during the transfer market, there is insane amounts of money involved in selling players and I'm sure the ownership think they can get a piece of that market.

If heart and soul is what you're looking for, Winter really is the kind of guy you want involved in this team. He gave everything to his club and country, never complained about backing up bigger stars when it happened, played any role asked of him, and was quality through and through.

Won't comment on his coaching this year, jury is still out and I want to give him time, but there has been some things that are a pity. But a guy like him would be a good candidate for president of the club.

As far as players, and coaches, we've had a bigger turnstile than any other club in MLS history. We've had great support in the stands. At what point does the obvious become apparent?

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9681182.jpg

[Cashcleaner]

I've gotta agree with the Anselmi hate.

Who gave Mo 4 years?
Who refused to sign a DP until the silence was deafening?
Who let some random suit with a beard sign players when no management structure was in place?
Who made TV deals that ensured the fewest amount of people could watch the team away from home?
Who was responsible for doubling ticket prices in 5 short years?

There's more probably more boondoggles but these are just the ones off the top of my head.

I don't want to use the word "hate", it's really not like that. Anselmi was part of MLSE long before TFC came along, and as far as I can tell was just handed the responsibility of the club simply for being in the right position at the time. But you're absolutely right on several points.

Not only did he pick the wrong guy (Mo Johnston), but he kept him in that job for 4 years. The fact that it took so long before we dropped money down on a DP (and a BAD choice at that) is on his shoulders as well - among many others. In his defence, however, I don't believe he'd have much say with regards to the TV deals and ticket prices. I might be wrong, but they strike me as decisions that required a larger consensus from the parent company.

[CSO_BBTB]

year one Canadian content was the biggest problem, year two a lack of ruthlessness from the suits probably due in part to fans readily accepting fieldturf as an excuse and an inexplicable hero worship of John Carver meant sticking with Mo when there was an opportunity to do a rebuild with the Edu allocation money and the three first round picks with a top notch coach and GM rather than with people who only took the job out of complete desperation, year three pieces were in place to do really well thanks to Edu money but coaching wasn't and although on paper players looked good there was no real coherent plan in terms of a tactical system, year four a dressing room cancer and ambitious coaches and front office staff probably undermined Preki then blew their chance to take full control, year five Winter and Mariner slowly sorting out the mess and successfully avert a potential catastrophe in terms of on-field performance, year six hopefully back to a year three level of performance in the standings but making the playoffs this time followed by becoming one of the dominant top of the table teams in year seven once JDG is finally out of the picture

[brad]

The moves they have made recently don't smack of an owner who is looking only for short term profit. I haven't seen this new training facility for the academy, but there's probably a lot of money invested in that. Having an under 12 team, scouts to find youth players. It sounds like a team building to be a solid footballing club for the long-term, not a team looking to do the least possible.

Actually is smacks of long term profiteering, not necessarily success on the pitch. Developing players to sell on for a huge profit is a core part of the Ajax model, and likely the main reason for the investment in the youth academy - not to make TFC successful on the pitch.

[Brooker]

Butter

[colman1860]

Makes about as much sense.

[Juanito]

Good thread. Like the responses.

I as well, believe that Tom Anselmi and the MLSE machine is the reason for our disasterous five years.

For whatever reason, they concentrated on bringing in more revenue (adding more seats, increasing ticket prices) than to put on a successful squad. I guess they figured we would be happy with the fact that we have a team and they thought they had themselves a mini version of the Maple Leafs (a fanbase that will come to games and spend cash despite of the product) and they don't. The fans have spoken by not showing up.

The fact that Tom Anselmi is still employed (or at the very least re-assigned) makes me wonder just how serious MLSE is about this team.

[Technorgasm]

Butter

^^^ made my mornig! hahaha

WE need and deserve more of it. . no doubt!

[Oldtimer]

year one Canadian content was the biggest problem, year two a lack of ruthlessness from the suits probably due in part to fans readily accepting fieldturf as an excuse and an inexplicable hero worship of John Carver meant sticking with Mo when there was an opportunity to do a rebuild with the Edu allocation money and the three first round picks with a top notch coach and GM rather than with people who only took the job out of complete desperation, year three pieces were in place to do really well thanks to Edu money but coaching wasn't and although on paper players looked good there was no real coherent plan in terms of a tactical system, year four a dressing room cancer and ambitious coaches and front office staff probably undermined Preki then blew their chance to take full control, year five Winter and Mariner slowly sorting out the mess and successfully avert a potential catastrophe in terms of on-field performance, year six hopefully back to a year three level of performance in the standings but making the playoffs this time followed by becoming one of the dominant top of the table teams in year seven once JDG is finally out of the picture

Can't disagree with any of this... your year 6 and 7 are the most likely trajectory, provided that Winter turns out to be the right guy.

[ecospice]

Cheaper Beer?

Hell yes! :drinking:

[Beach_Red]

Can't disagree with any of this... your year 6 and 7 are the most likely trajectory, provided that Winter turns out to be the right guy.


And as long as he continues to be supported by his bosses. If ticket renewals really do drop off things will be tense in the offices and who knows what crazy decisions they'll make (and is Klinsmann still consulting?).

[AmherstNY_TFC]

Very simple: a long-term plan.

Since Day One, there seemed to be no vision as to what this club is about. What is the playing style? Is it an attacking style? Counterattacking? How is the weather in early spring and in the fall going to affect our play? How is this club to be built? Via the draft? Free agents? An academy? What is the club identity?

The solution to each and every losing streak has been to make a short-term move (fire the coach, bring in a Canadian international, make a trade) that placates the fans in the short term, but does not help to increase the talent level in the team. In fact, I think Mo and others over-estimated the talent level of their players. It seems to me that the Maple Leafs use the same M.O. to build their team (Surprise! Surprise).

With no plan, we have seen TFC whiff on coaches, draft picks, trades, and Designated Player signings. The results have been poor this season because the cupboard is bare. Other than Edu (sold) and Frei, are there any SuperDraft picks that are regular contributors to the team? What trades have netted 100 cents on the dollar on players given away?

Love them or hate them, at least Winter and Mariner have a vision: establish an Ajax system of playing and youth development. They also have tried to bring in talented players. They have brought in Frings not just for his ability, but to be the Alpha Dog. I think he is just as important in explaining what it means to be a professional: how to train; how to carry yourself off the pitch; how to prepare; how to eat; etc.

Young Canadian players do not get a free ride in the Academy. Look at that kid that got cut loose because he jerked TFC around on signing pro forms. You wanna wait until after the U-17 World Cup and see if a European team comes in for you? Good luck with that? On yer bike, son!

The one thing that is missing is the player who can put the team on his back and get a goal when the team needs one. Think of it as having our own Brek Shea. I remember that league match a month ago. I felt the difference in that match is that FC Dallas had a player who could do something special to win the match (which Shea did when he scored the only goal of the match). If we have a system in place to bring a certain type of player in via the draft or the academy, then that is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[rocker]

year one Canadian content was the biggest problem, year two a lack of ruthlessness from the suits probably due in part to fans readily accepting fieldturf as an excuse and an inexplicable hero worship of John Carver meant sticking with Mo when there was an opportunity to do a rebuild with the Edu allocation money and the three first round picks with a top notch coach and GM rather than with people who only took the job out of complete desperation, year three pieces were in place to do really well thanks to Edu money but coaching wasn't and although on paper players looked good there was no real coherent plan in terms of a tactical system, year four a dressing room cancer and ambitious coaches and front office staff probably undermined Preki then blew their chance to take full control, year five Winter and Mariner slowly sorting out the mess and successfully avert a potential catastrophe in terms of on-field performance, year six hopefully back to a year three level of performance in the standings but making the playoffs this time followed by becoming one of the dominant top of the table teams in year seven once JDG is finally out of the picture

I agree with this.

Another problem was that the most objective indicator of success -- points in the standings -- actually increased every year of the first three years (25 --> 35 --> 39). And MLS is such a parity league that TFC seemed very close to the playoffs in year 3. The team finished one point back of the playoffs, one point back of a team that gets a lot of praise on these boards (Real Salt Lake). Imagine that -- Mo Johnston's team was almost equal in the standings to Real Salt Lake. So from that perspective, an argument could be made that a little tweaking, a few signings etc, would push TFC into the playoffs. Mo's best buddy from the KC championship years came on board -- a guy who had MLS experience and success as a coach -- it seemed the pieces were fitting into place. Of course, it never turned out that way.

Now, in hindsight, three years should have been enough to get this team into the playoffs (I had always said 3 years was the max) and MoJo should have been fired right then.

[Oldtimer]

Now, in hindsight, three years should have been enough to get this team into the playoffs (I had always said 3 years was the max) and MoJo should have been fired right then.

Exactly. That of all things is Anselmi's greatest mistake. Many of us (myself included) argued that Mo deserved a chance. By the end of year 3 it was obvious to all here that he had failed. However somehow he had morphed his boss's expectations into his ridiculous "5 year plan," as if he should have 2 more years to make the playoffs (Mo, if anything, was a master manipulator). He should have been out on his rear end after the NY debacle.

BTW, in pro sports, it's generally accepted that a GM has two coaches before he gets fired. Mo somehow got 4.

I hold Winter to the same need for success, only now I'm a little more impatient and demand a playoff spot for year 2. Anything less and he should be fired.