PDA

View Full Version : Winter Approval Rating - August 2011



__wowza
08-29-2011, 11:31 AM
PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
(so i don't have to read: "5 - 1? what the fuck!?")

Approval rating overhaul!! :D
Here's how it's going to go this month. Instead of a simple yes or no, you're going to be rating different aspects of Winter as a coach. Each category gets a specific rating, from 5 (being the highest) to 1 (being the lowest). To calculate the average rating, just add your total up and divide by 5, if it's got a decimal point at the end of it, you can round either up or down based on the simple question "did Winter perform up to your expectations for the month". Afterwards, you post your total rating on the poll, from 5 - 1.

here's the criteria:

TACTICS
how did you feel about the tactical choices made?
what about his starters? subs? formation?

RESULTS
at the end of the day, how did we do in terms of results? did we tie games we should've lost? lost games we should've won? etc.

EFFICIENCY
how effective was the coach in utilizing the players he has?
did he play some players out of position? did he have a reason to?

COMMUNICATION
how effective was the coach in explaining his outlook and choices in the paper / on torontofc.ca / on TFCtv / in post match interviews?

TRADES & MISC
were the trades made productive or counter-productive?
did he fly off the handle at get a 4 game ban?
did he he gave you a dirty look?


A general guideline: Its how you feel at the moment, not a final assessment. Like a marathon, this is just a snapshot of our support for the month. A low approval rating does not rate him as an overall failure, just like a high approval rating does not mean he's Sir Alex Ferguson. For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in August:




LEAGUE PLAY


5 points out of a possible 12
8TH in the East
16TH out of 18TH overall

CHAMPIONS LEAGUE PLAY
2ND in CCL Group C
3 points out of a possible 6


*gold denotes CCL playoff
*red denotes CCL game

Real Esteli FC vs Toronto FC
AUG 2nd - WIN: 1-2

Toronto FC vs. DC United
AUG 6th - TIE: 3 - 3

Toronto FC vs Real Salt Lake
AUG 13th - WIN: 1-0

Toronto FC vs Tauro FC
AUG 18th - WIN: 2 - 1

Chicago Fire vs Toronto FC
AUG 21st - LOSS: 2-0

Toronto FC vs FC Dallas
AUG 25th - LOSS: 0-1

Toronto FC vs San Jose Earthquakes
AUG 27th - TIE: 1-1




OLD THREADS:
83.44% JULY THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=29100 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=29100)
63.55% JUNE THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=28658 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28658)
46.60% MAY THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28251 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28251)
77.61% APRIL THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=27878 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=27878)





ALSO: before you think about complaining about the way this rating system was set up, please see last months thread where i mentioned updating it and then posted the exact criteria i was going to be using. seriously, you had a whole month to have your input as to how this was going to be laid out, so don't post your snarky comments here, if you'd like to see an update you think i may have overlooked, PM me.

Oldtimer
08-29-2011, 11:40 AM
Having a different system may give a broader range of opinion, but how do we compare to the previous polls?

Azerban
08-29-2011, 12:42 PM
i've decided that winter has earned a rating of eight

LesH
08-29-2011, 09:45 PM
2 stars from me.

Those who gave him 5 stars of course they were just joking.
But still I'm shaking my head in amazement seeing that 12 people gave him 4 stars.

Jeff s
08-29-2011, 11:10 PM
Wheres the 0 option?

Brooker
08-30-2011, 05:19 AM
He's okay....

Pookie
08-30-2011, 05:32 AM
4

Results in CCL have us both qualified for the group stage and currently sitting alone in 2nd.

Very happy with his ability to assess former roster players and the balls to move them out. Also, for not pandering to certain ex-players and thereby attempting to create a new team culture.

Very happy with his influence on the Academy direction. I am sure that many youth (and parents) would be thrilled to be given an opportunity to learn in a program that is influenced by Winter's technical and tactical experience.

David_Oliveira
08-30-2011, 05:32 AM
3 stars from me. He has had a mediocre month. with a 3-2-2 record, the team was above .500. This had me thinking 4. But his lineup selections and the lack of changes within the line up in such a hectic time pushed it down to a three. We might not have the depth we need. Alot of players looked tired out there on Saturday.

Oldtimer
08-30-2011, 07:45 AM
I gave him a 4,

I'm not looking at current league standings that much, the team has just been partially rebuilt, and is just finishing it's "preseason." There is still much rebuilding to go, it's only about half there.

It looks like his attempts at team building are going well. I especially look at things like team cohesion, something that was totally missing in the MoJo years. Like Pookie said, he's had the balls to move out players that worked against cohesion. Obviously, with limited discovery signings, Winter can't totally rebuild the team in just a few months (for example, he's had to go with second or third best choices in defense). So far, the team seems to be following the Kreis trajectory. Squeaking into the playoffs next year would be on par with Kreis. We won't know if that will be likely until mid next-year.

He's also learning the league, and adjusting his strategies accordingly. Unfortunately, he's "learning on the job," but you can see that he is actually learning.

The academy is a bright spot and gives a lot of hope going forward. I'm impressed at how well he has been integrating the young players, he seems to have a real knack in that area. Being a TFC academy player looks like a real plum opportunity at this point to get into the dream of being a pro player. For TFC, it means not needing to rely so much on the SuperDraft and it's American players, which can only be a good thing, and means that a supply of low-cost Canadian players will be ongoing.

He doesn't get a "5" from me because of some still dubious squad and strategy selections at this point, but I can see him improving.

TOBOR !
08-30-2011, 08:02 AM
bah - this requires too much thinking - appreciate the effort, though.

I give this poll a 3.

Roogsy
08-30-2011, 09:52 AM
This is probably a better way to gauge Winter sentiment on this board as it demonstrations a difference between those who approve of what he has done vs those who are on standby. And then of course, those of us who don't approve of what he has done. It is at least a little clearer rather than a "yes/no" poll. Nicely done Wowza.

Gazza
08-30-2011, 09:58 AM
Poll taking has really improved this season. I give him a 3. Results will matter more next season. And he will be scrutinized accordingly.

Technorgasm
08-30-2011, 12:25 PM
I rounded DOWN to 2, from the more probably 3.
As they had some good results, and I was too busy watc hing amazing UK football to be there. . . .

his fault.

ryan
08-30-2011, 12:47 PM
Next month's poll better be out of 1000!

I wanted to give him 743 (well, 743.33 but I rounded down to not be too precise). I had to settle for 4/5 since that was mostly accurate to my rating but still not truly how I feel.

Sham!


:D

__wowza
08-30-2011, 12:54 PM
This is probably a better way to gauge Winter sentiment on this board as it demonstrations a difference between those who approve of what he has done vs those who are on standby. And then of course, those of us who don't approve of what he has done. It is at least a little clearer rather than a "yes/no" poll. Nicely done Wowza.


much appreciated.
that's really all i wanted to do. i found that the previous threads (shoutout to dichioTFC for the idea from his preki threads) had someone voting yes or no, and then spending 4 pages explaining the rationale behind it. it became a game of "i approval, but..", which hopefully the gauge will eliminate and allow people to easily clarify.

it now becomes "how much do you approve?" instead of simply "do you approve?". it also allows us to get a nice little number from the star rating above. adding up all of the ratings and then dividing by the number shows us that his current total approval rating is:

3.01 stars out of 5
for a total of 60.2%

if this were university, he'd be getting a C-

ryan
08-30-2011, 01:16 PM
much appreciated.
that's really all i wanted to do. i found that the previous threads (shoutout to dichioTFC for the idea from his preki threads) had someone voting yes or no, and then spending 4 pages explaining the rationale behind it. it became a game of "i approval, but..", which hopefully the gauge will eliminate and allow people to easily clarify.

it now becomes "how much do you approve?" instead of simply "do you approve?". it also allows us to get a nice little number from the star rating above. adding up all of the ratings and then dividing by the number shows us that his current total approval rating is:

3.01 stars out of 5
for a total of 60.2%

if this were university, he'd be getting a C-

I don't think that scale compares because the Alpha scale used in school is weighted far differently.

I'm sure most people here are looking at it as 5 different rating levels where as in school it's typically

0-49- F
50-59 - D
60-60 C
70-79 B
80+ A

not quite the same weighting, but if you did apply on the same scale I'd imagine that percentage would be in the B's.

Oldtimer
08-30-2011, 01:41 PM
Probably if you took the 1 and 2 stars, that would equal a "no" in a yes/no scenario, 3 stars would probably barely edge into a "yes." If that is true (and it's hard to judge without every voter giving their rationale), then I would say that people are feeling less optimistic than July, but more optimistic than June.

__wowza
08-30-2011, 01:53 PM
I don't think that scale compares because the Alpha scale used in school is weighted far differently.

I'm sure most people here are looking at it as 5 different rating levels where as in school it's typically

0-49- F
50-59 - D
60-60 C
70-79 B
80+ A

not quite the same weighting, but if you did apply on the same scale I'd imagine that percentage would be in the B's.


im going off of the wiki entry on the ontario grading system found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_%28education%29#Ontario). the system itself is open to interpretation and speculation, whereas one group can look at it and go "well, 63% of people said YES last month" you can flip it around and say "well, 34 people voted the majority of 3 stars". anyway you slice it, the average is the average.

calculated into a percent, it was sitting at 3.01 stars out of five and 60.2% which is a far more accurate rating than some of the ones we've had in the past. preki was sitting at a 93% approval rating last july, that doesn't mean 93% absolutely loved the job he was doing, as evident in the posts (again, 93% of the "yes, but..")

the main thing i like about this is that the approval rating from 1-5 doesnt carry as much weight as the previous polls did. if you had 100 people voting and 80 of them were okay with the job winter did, that would reflect in a 80%, which is absolutely ludicrous. here, people who voted a 5 or a 1 don't tip the weight as much. i havent done the math but id be surprised if it knocked him down .05%.



the reason i posted the criteria is so you can break it down piece by piece in terms of what makes a good skipper:

how are his tactics?
how're we doing?
how efficient are we?
how does he communicate?


again, because you essentially have a point total of 25 saying "he's using great tactics for what we have in the schedule we have and he communicates that.. but we just aren't winning" doesn't impact your choice as much as you'd think. saying the statement above would still give you somewhere in the high 3 star category.




this isnt necessarily for you, but the math goes as followed:

tactics + results + efficiency + communication + trades and misc = rating
rating / 5 = star category (rounded up or down)
star category average x 5 = grade percentage


the grade percentage and star rating is what im going to be using on a monthly basis to compare to future months performance. NOW, the issue im having is that im almost 99.9% certain that the bulk of people in this thread arent looking at the rating system as a whole, didnt read the post and are just voting 1-5 on whatever criteria they make up in their head (ie: we're not in the playoffs or we didnt win against dallas). something tells me that most are going to be shocked when they see a grade like C-, an average of 61%, or a star average of 3.01


amirite? ;)

__wowza
08-30-2011, 01:57 PM
Probably if you took the 1 and 2 stars, that would equal a "no" in a yes/no scenario, 3 stars would probably barely edge into a "yes." If that is true (and it's hard to judge without every voter giving their rationale), then I would say that people are feeling less optimistic than July, but more optimistic than June.


see the post above. its not as cut and dry as the previous month. there's no "5: strongly agree" or "1: strongly disagree", that's been replaced by a look at all of the facets of what makes a good coach, and then a rating based off of that.

you can like the way he's deployed our squad, but admit that we lack depth and still not be overly enthused about the results without giving him a 2. idealy, itd be easiest to have people post their ratings and explanation about the criteria and then their average (i just havent gotten around to it yet). like:

tactics: 4
explanation

results: 2
explanation

overall: 3


im not telling people how to communicate their thoughts on the board, not by any means, but when i see 10+ pages of people explaining their reason for voting yes or no, i dont think itd hurt.

Oldtimer
08-30-2011, 02:00 PM
It's important that any poll be unbiased.

Even the nature of the question being posed can tilt a poll, or the discussion that surrounds it.

For example, a poll on welfare rate amounts preceded by (1) a discussion on welfare abuses or (2) a discussion on people finding it difficult to make ends meet on a welfare cheque will yield very different results.

Ossington Mental Youth
08-30-2011, 02:14 PM
3 stars from me. He has had a mediocre month. with a 3-2-2 record, the team was above .500. This had me thinking 4. But his lineup selections and the lack of changes within the line up in such a hectic time pushed it down to a three. We might not have the depth we need. Alot of players looked tired out there on Saturday.

same for me

Azerban
08-30-2011, 06:03 PM
Next month's poll better be out of 1000!

I wanted to give him 743 (well, 743.33 but I rounded down to not be too precise). I had to settle for 4/5 since that was mostly accurate to my rating but still not truly how I feel.

Sham!


:D

don't feel constricted by an artificial scheme

post whatever you want, all the time

Shakes McQueen
08-30-2011, 06:05 PM
I gave him a three - my real score is more like a 3.5, but since I had to choose between 3 or 4, I gave him 3.

Good progress in the CCL, and I'm liking the contribution of the new players (even Iro is becoming less of an obvious liability than when he first got here). However, the overall defense is still leaking like a sieve, and Winter has made some really puzzling lineup choices. And I simply can't give a 3-2-2 record what would amount to an A grade (which is what a 4/5 is).

Our defense must be addressed this winter. MUST be.

- Scott

2mil4dero+santo
08-30-2011, 06:11 PM
I gave him a three - my real score is more like a 3.5, but since I had to choose between 3 or 4, I gave him 3.

Good progress in the CCL, and I'm liking the contribution of the new players (even Iro is becoming less of an obvious liability than when he first got here). However, the overall defense is still leaking like a sieve, and Winter has made some really puzzling lineup choices. And I simply can't give a 3-2-2 record what would amount to an A grade (which is what a 4/5 is).

Our defense must be addressed this winter. MUST be.

- Scott

It's been addressed, we have a dp defender in Frings lol...

__wowza
08-31-2011, 08:19 AM
don't feel constricted by an artificial scheme

post whatever you want, all the time

they why does Ageroo keep closing down my "nutsack or eric hassli's face really close up?" threads!?

Pookie
08-31-2011, 08:23 AM
Our defense must be addressed this winter. MUST be.



Do you feel that it may already be (partly) addressed with a healthy Williams and a healthy Cann?

Ageroo
08-31-2011, 08:33 AM
they why does Ageroo keep closing down my "nutsack or eric hassli's face really close up?" threads!?

:D.......behave ;)

Canary10
08-31-2011, 09:09 AM
Do you feel that it may already be (partly) addressed with a healthy Williams and a healthy Cann?

In my view, Cann isn't the answer. He's a pretty decent tackler, but he was so scary on the ball. At least one of the two central defenders has to be really good on the ball, comfortable moving it out, and a good passer. I think Caan and/or Williams could be there for tackling ability but someone is needed for the other role.

mastermixer
08-31-2011, 09:12 AM
In my view, Cann isn't the answer. He's a pretty decent tackler, but he was so scary on the ball. At least one of the two central defenders has to be really good on the ball, comfortable moving it out, and a good passer. I think Caan and/or Williams could be there for tackling ability but someone is needed for the other role.

This has to be a priority over the winter. We have to many slow footed goons in the CB position and not enough finesse, which is needed for the type of football we are playing.

Canary10
08-31-2011, 09:38 AM
Totally agree.

rocker
08-31-2011, 05:40 PM
Williams wasn't a bad passer from what I saw. He was probably the best CB passer we've had. He also seems like a good defender. Position him as a starting CB alongside a good passing defender from Europe or South America, and then have Cann as a CB backup, and we're fine in the middle of the defense. Eckersley is very good on the right. Morgan might be able to grow on the left. Not bad.

Shakes McQueen
08-31-2011, 06:04 PM
Do you feel that it may already be (partly) addressed with a healthy Williams and a healthy Cann?

Impossible to know right now, but I will say Cann sure didn't impress-a-me much with his performances early this season, before the injury.]

We've got too many blunt instruments in central defense, when what we need is a couple of scalpels.

- Scott

J .
09-14-2011, 08:53 PM
He has been horrible on all fronts.

His tactical acumen is pathetic. Each game he leaves our backline exposed. For those who blame the players, I suggest watching other top MLS teams defender. They dont have better players, they have a coach who recognizes the limits of the players and puts them in a system to succeed.

Winter is an abject failure this season. Worst coach in TFC history, our goal differential is just one marker of his massive failure. It is only getting worse, not better.

v00d00daddy
09-14-2011, 09:28 PM
He has been horrible on all fronts.

His tactical acumen is pathetic. Each game he leaves our backline exposed. For those who blame the players, I suggest watching other top MLS teams defender. They dont have better players, they have a coach who recognizes the limits of the players and puts them in a system to succeed.

Winter is an abject failure this season. Worst coach in TFC history, our goal differential is just one marker of his massive failure. It is only getting worse, not better.

I don't agree with your view but I get your frustration.

Just grow a pair of balls and say that after they beat Columbus 4-2 or RSL.

Otherwise it just looks like you're patting yourself on the back cause you think you're right. LOL

J .
09-14-2011, 10:18 PM
I don't agree with your view but I get your frustration.

Just grow a pair of balls and say that after they beat Columbus 4-2 or RSL.

Otherwise it just looks like you're patting yourself on the back cause you think you're right. LOL


I say that all the time?

Because I didnt come on the boards this past weekend to say that somehow it invalidates something Ive said all season long? Its not as though IM changing my tune. Ive never liked Winters tactics since day one, hes overhauled the roster and there has been very little improvement in what could be the worst team in MLS and I personally dont believe it should be. We are a midtable side talent wise and a bottom team coaching wise.

C'mon. Theres plenty of reasons to dislike me, Im not always agreeable and Im fine with that, but for real? You and Oldtimer are on me for not saying that after Columbus?

I disagree with that.

rocker
09-14-2011, 10:57 PM
He has been horrible on all fronts.

His tactical acumen is pathetic. Each game he leaves our backline exposed. For those who blame the players, I suggest watching other top MLS teams defender. They dont have better players, they have a coach who recognizes the limits of the players and puts them in a system to succeed.


I disagree -- Harden wouldn't be starting on most MLS teams, certainly not "top teams" like Seattle, Dallas, LA, RSL etc.. And most MLS teams don't have two Harden-types in central defense.

Williams and Cann are better than Harden. Sadly they are both injured.

What I think you're looking for is Preki-type tactics, that make Dan Gargan look like a good MLS player.

J .
09-14-2011, 11:31 PM
I disagree -- Harden wouldn't be starting on most MLS teams, certainly not "top teams" like Seattle, Dallas, LA, RSL etc.. And most MLS teams don't have two Harden-types in central defense.

Williams and Cann are better than Harden. Sadly they are both injured.

What I think you're looking for is Preki-type tactics, that make Dan Gargan look like a good MLS player.


No Harden is not a great defender, he is an adequate backup. Moreover, Cann and Williams are comparable in skill set to Harden, perhaps a touch better.

Cann is absolutely horrible when being taken 1v1. He simply is not good enough at that role Williams we havent seen enough to make a reasonable assessment, but I felt the same about him.

Ive never said I wanted Preki style tactics, but at least he was not delusional regarding the talent he had nor were 4-0 thrashings a regularity. The style was boring, but it was a platform to build on. Look at what Nowak has done in Philly? Furthermore, before Barrett got hurt in Philly last year, TFC was on pace to be a top 3-4 team in the East. The rest is history.

Ive constantly said Kinnear, Schmid, Nicols and Arena are coaches in MLS who are proven to get a good job done. Schmid in particular. All of the top coaches in MLS put defense first and accept the flaws of their talent.

Regardless, I find it hard to believe that Winter is getting the best of the talent he has. This roster is 100x more talented than last years team and is playing, much much worse.

Alonso
09-14-2011, 11:36 PM
I disagree -- Harden wouldn't be starting on most MLS teams, certainly not "top teams" like Seattle, Dallas, LA, RSL etc.. And most MLS teams don't have two Harden-types in central defense.

Williams and Cann are better than Harden. Sadly they are both injured.

What I think you're looking for is Preki-type tactics, that make Dan Gargan look like a good MLS player.

Exactly.

When you're playing Pumas in Mexico, this might not be a bad idea don't you think? We're in a tournament, switching tactics to address the situation where we are missing key defenders and attackers against a superior team is a must.

PopePouri
09-15-2011, 12:08 AM
No Harden is not a great defender, he is an adequate backup. Moreover, Cann and Williams are comparable in skill set to Harden, perhaps a touch better.

Bullshit. Maybe their touch is poor but their positioning and ability in the air are much better.



Cann is absolutely horrible when being taken 1v1. He simply is not good enough at that role Williams we havent seen enough to make a reasonable assessment, but I felt the same about him.

I'd like to get a statistic of the percentage of goals were scored when they were taken 1v1 and were technically Cann's fault. I doubt there were many.



Ive never said I wanted Preki style tactics, but at least he was not delusional regarding the talent he had nor were 4-0 thrashings a regularity. The style was boring, but it was a platform to build on. Look at what Nowak has done in Philly? Furthermore, before Barrett got hurt in Philly last year, TFC was on pace to be a top 3-4 team in the East. The rest is history.

Right. I guess the Columbus and RSL wins have been completely been forgotten.



Ive constantly said Kinnear, Schmid, Nicols and Arena are coaches in MLS who are proven to get a good job done. Schmid in particular. All of the top coaches in MLS put defense first and accept the flaws of their talent.

Definitely an oversimplification.



Regardless, I find it hard to believe that Winter is getting the best of the talent he has. This roster is 100x more talented than last years team and is playing, much much worse.

Depends on the player. Some players are playing better and others are not. Are they getting the best out of JDG, Plata, Avila, Marosevic, Eckersley. Gordon, Soolsma? One can argue that they are available to express themselves on the pitch more than any other system making them better.

There is lack of quality at CB. It's obvious.

__wowza
09-15-2011, 08:38 AM
He has been horrible on all fronts.

His tactical acumen is pathetic. Each game he leaves our backline exposed. For those who blame the players, I suggest watching other top MLS teams defender. They dont have better players, they have a coach who recognizes the limits of the players and puts them in a system to succeed.

Winter is an abject failure this season. Worst coach in TFC history, our goal differential is just one marker of his massive failure. It is only getting worse, not better.

im sorry, i cant take you seriously. it's either your lack of insight, your overblown delivery or the genuine degree you believe you're actually making sense; i haven't narrowed it down.

let me get this straight: HE leaves our backline exposed? how does HE leave our backline exposed and not, say, andy iro, ty harden, or the lack of a backline general who can organize the defense?

how bout this, instead of consistently harping on winter and how he's the "worst" coach in history, how about you identify what he does wrong, and explain what you would do in his position? it's a lot easier to criticize than figure out a solution i'll bet.

Carts
09-15-2011, 10:04 AM
I think its safe to say, that in the off-season, one of the main things in the "Winter Approval Rating" debate will be who he can bring in to help our back line...

Last night, we could have had a 6-man backline and I don't think much would have changed...

Mistakes, poor marking, being out-worked, a couple of bounces, and we were eaten alive... The best laid strategy, plans, and coaching goes out the window when that happens...

The staff need to strengthen the backline. They've brought in Frings to control the flow, control the match, they've brought in Koevermans to score - in the off-season they need to find people to help at the back...

Carts...

jabbronies
09-15-2011, 10:52 AM
The teams defensive woes from last night cannot be pinned on the coaching staff...I'm sure the coaches on the team don't tell both centre backs to allow the guy who just deeked around your holding midfielder to casually walking in on your goalie untouched. Untouched...no body contact...just stick your foot out to the side and hope it knocks the ball away. I'm sure that's not what is practiced or taught at TFC. If it is, then this has to be the only team in the world that is asking their players to do that.

As for what we have - I have to agree with J. - Our Defence is shit. Aside from Eckersley and Henry (who is a back up at this point in time) the whole lot of them need to go.

Carts
09-15-2011, 11:16 AM
The teams defensive woes from last night cannot be pinned on the coaching staff...I'm sure the coaches on the team don't tell both centre backs to allow the guy who just deeked around your holding midfielder to casually walking in on your goalie untouched. Untouched...no body contact...just stick your foot out to the side and hope it knocks the ball away. I'm sure that's not what is practiced or taught at TFC. If it is, then this has to be the only team in the world that is asking their players to do that.

As for what we have - I have to agree with J. - Our Defence is shit. Aside from Eckersley and Henry (who is a back up at this point in time) the whole lot of them need to go.

Exactly - that's why I find it hard to read people ragging on Winter for their play...

In the off-season, if they're not able to bring in new faces / abilities to improve the backline, then it will be their fault...

I know they have had to rebuild, but I don't think Jesus could have rebuilt this team from top to bottom in one off-season.. :D

Roogsy
09-15-2011, 11:19 AM
Sorry Carts, I have stayed out of this thread but in this particular topic I have to speak up.

Defensive form and capability, more than anywhere on the pitch is more an issue of coaching than individual skill. Upfront, with the forwards, individual skill and creativity play a bigger role than strategy. But on the backline, it comes down to routine, structure and cooperation. That's why usually defenders are more "humble" players willing to play as a unit and not looking for individual glory.

You can bring in the best defenders in the world, pay them DP salary but if you don't have proper coaching and strategy, it won't do a damn thing to help.

DangerRed
09-15-2011, 11:22 AM
Sorry Carts, I have stayed out of this thread but in this particular topic I have to speak up.

Defensive form and capability, more than anywhere on the pitch is more an issue of coaching than individual skill. Upfront, with the forwards, individual skill and creativity play a bigger role than strategy. But on the backline, it comes down to routine, structure and cooperation. That's why usually defenders are more "humble" players willing to play as a unit and not looking for individual glory.

You can bring in the best defenders in the world, pay them DP salary but if you don't have proper coaching and strategy, it won't do a damn thing to help.

Absolutely correct. This is also reflected in individual salary levels for starting XI defenders when compared to attackers. Individual attacking play requires vast amounts of skill and creativity. Putting the ball in the net demands much more of a player's skill than to destroy a play as a defender or CDM should be able to do.

Carts
09-15-2011, 11:26 AM
Sorry Carts, I have stayed out of this thread but in this particular topic I have to speak up.

Defensive form and capability, more than anywhere on the pitch is more an issue of coaching than individual skill. Upfront, with the forwards, individual skill and creativity play a bigger role than strategy. But on the backline, it comes down to routine, structure and cooperation. That's why usually defenders are more "humble" players willing to play as a unit and not looking for individual glory.

You can bring in the best defenders in the world, pay them DP salary but if you don't have proper coaching and strategy, it won't do a damn thing to help.

I don't disagree at all... I agree...

That's what I'm saying, once we have players capable of playing at this level - it will be on the coaching staff to get them to perform, to deliver, to work as a unit, and do their job...

I honestly believe, that with the 4-men out their last night, and the options on the bench Sir Alex Ferguson could not make them much better...

The guys out there just aren't that good...

Some disagree, but they just don't seem to do it...

Now, should Winter and company have built from the back-out, putting more focus on the backline this off-season? I think there's a lot of people that would say yes - and then go searching for the striker to compliment...

torontocelt
09-15-2011, 11:29 AM
Exactly - that's why I find it hard to read people ragging on Winter for their play...

In the off-season, if they're not able to bring in new faces / abilities to improve the backline, then it will be their fault...

I know they have had to rebuild, but I don't think Jesus could have rebuilt this team from top to bottom in one off-season.. :D

I think it is due to the players and the management team. The players are by and large not good enough and the management team despite knowing this is not giving them enough cover. Winter isn't stupid, he sees the defence makes mistakes almost every game, he has seen TFC pummeled a whole heap of times this season losing by substantial margins. If Winter chooses not to address that but rather contentrate on a more offensive approach then indeed that is his decision and it is also partly his fault if the defence continues to leak goals. The players have to take responsibility for not being able to do the simple things correctly, why they cant is a mixture of not being good enough and being exposed by a system that does little to address their very obvious short comings. This is not something new, it has happened all season, time will tell if it will happen next season.

Fort York Redcoat
09-15-2011, 11:34 AM
I'm pretty sure Winter has coached them on trying to keep the back together at least. One goal was the fault of not being able to know where the rest of the line even was. A simple offside trap was boffed and the Pumas player had 4 steps on the defender closest to him. That was not the fault of coaching. That was player error.

That wasn't even the goal Iro was responsible for.

__wowza
09-15-2011, 12:13 PM
Defensive form and capability, more than anywhere on the pitch is more an issue of coaching than individual skill. Upfront, with the forwards, individual skill and creativity play a bigger role than strategy. But on the backline, it comes down to routine, structure and cooperation. That's why usually defenders are more "humble" players willing to play as a unit and not looking for individual glory.

You can bring in the best defenders in the world, pay them DP salary but if you don't have proper coaching and strategy, it won't do a damn thing to help.


the last line i agree with.
the middle stuff is debatable.

i've seen crosses come in where iro was on the wrong side of an attacker. i've seen harden come in when he should've been covering a pass and letting the keeper close down the angle. although i agree that coaching does play a HUGE part in a well organized backline, there's some things you just cant teach players.

no matter how many drills you go over keeping an attacker in an offside position is a matter of skill and awareness, not a coaching issue. if a defender can't anticipate a run, there's nothing the coach can do aside from saying "look, he's a lot faster than you are, if you don't think he's going to hold his run waiting for a pass, you need to be a few steps ahead of him or you're going to be playing catch-up" there's nothing else the coach can do.

i know first hand when i was an assistant for my elementary schools team and coached a few U18 house league teams that some players just don't "get it". they would make the same mistakes, they'd get overwhelmed and they'd get frustrated. that's what happened last night. if they don't get it at the professional level, they won't ever get it.

Roogsy
09-15-2011, 12:20 PM
Not debateable at all. That is life on the backline. That is how all good teams run their defense.

Defenders are going to make mistakes. At all levels. Coaching is meant to reduce those mistakes and cover for them when they happen. You can't point to defender mistakes as evidence that they are not "professionals" that deserve to be at this level because then the obvious implication is that your standards are nearly impossible to meet, especially at the MLS level with MLS salaries. You can't expect to pay $100,000 for a player and receive $1,000,000 worth of service, that's ridiculous.

Good coaches in this and any league have had success by identifying the most glaring risks to their teams and plugging them as best they can. If our demands are not that they be plugged as best as possible but resolved with the best solutions and the highest standards in global football, then you will be waiting a long time.

Canary10
09-15-2011, 12:22 PM
As a defender, I take offense at the idea that there is no skill in defending.

__wowza
09-15-2011, 02:31 PM
Defenders are going to make mistakes. At all levels. Coaching is meant to reduce those mistakes and cover for them when they happen. You can't point to defender mistakes as evidence that they are not "professionals" that deserve to be at this level because then the obvious implication is that your standards are nearly impossible to meet

i highly doubt my standards are impossible to meet, im not expecting a championship team after one years worth of work. my standards are very simple, such as not playing a season where we get scored on X number of times in a similar fashion. there's obviously a debate as to whose accountable for this, and it's a matter of opinion that varies between us.

i also never claimed that they weren't professionals. i don't know how you got that. re-reading it, it was never even implied. all i stated was that player develop, and they have a certain number of years they can do so professionally. when they settle into a spot, they normally stick with what works for them.. and if theyre spectacular, they can fix what doesnt. if a player doesn't develop well, then their time is up. their problems get harder to fix and they keep repeating the same thing over and over. a striker can't improve his accuracy by leaps and bounds over the course of a season, and a midfielder can't improve his first touch at the age of 28. what i was saying is that guys like harden and iro are done developing and they're showing what they have to offer. i'm not saying they aren't professional, i'm saying that playing at a professional level there are some things that they don't "get" that they probably had issues with during their development. now that their development is over, they still don't "get it".



Good coaches in this and any league have had success by identifying the most glaring risks to their teams and plugging them as best they can. If our demands are not that they be plugged as best as possible but resolved with the best solutions and the highest standards in global football, then you will be waiting a long time.

i can see where you're coming from with this, and i agree with it. i personally don't think it's being done this year for a reason however. winter is trying to build a system, and he's playing people in that system. he'll scrap the ones he doesn't need in the off-season and keep the ones that fit. when we have a full squad that winter is happy with and that fits into the system, i completely agree, we'll need to identify the risks of playing certain teams in that system and tweak accordingly.

what i said at the beginning of the year is what i'm saying now: i'd rather the team be playing in the system we're playing in next year, with players that fit in next year, instead of playing a different formation (that players we have may fit into) for absolutely no reason than to sit mid-table.

our midfield looks like it's clicking in the avila/frings/jdg combo, our attack is looking better (not including the addition of lindsey back into the lineup hopefully repeating his form from the last time we saw him) and the only thing that doesn't look like it's improving is our defense. if winter decides to blow up the team in the offseason, trust me, i'll be right there with you because it'll be the opposite of what i believe this season was supposed to be about. as it stands right now, i believe what you're proposing is applicable to us next season, not this one.

Fort York Redcoat
09-15-2011, 02:40 PM
Uh oh wowzbot, you used the "s" word. I agree with you but you might get some flak. Like "tear-this-league-up" flak.:D

But it is my hope that this system will tear this league up.

__wowza
09-15-2011, 04:04 PM
Uh oh wowzbot, you used the "s" word. I agree with you but you might get some flak. Like "tear-this-league-up" flak.:D

But it is my hope that this system will tear this league up.

s word?

J .
09-15-2011, 07:25 PM
im sorry, i cant take you seriously. it's either your lack of insight, your overblown delivery or the genuine degree you believe you're actually making sense; i haven't narrowed it down.

let me get this straight: HE leaves our backline exposed? how does HE leave our backline exposed and not, say, andy iro, ty harden, or the lack of a backline general who can organize the defense?

how bout this, instead of consistently harping on winter and how he's the "worst" coach in history, how about you identify what he does wrong, and explain what you would do in his position? it's a lot easier to criticize than figure out a solution i'll bet.


Winters tactics has left our backline exposed. How is that to be overly simplistic?

Im not saying our defenders are great, but they are not totally skilless either. Iro was a top defender in Columbus, Harden was a touted prospect prior. They just didnt forget how to defend. 1v1 in space, they will be destoryed each time. It happens all the time. No they do not have the skills to cover that part of the game, therefore tactics need to be adjusted otherwise these 4-0 losses will continue as they have all season long.

Tactics can make average players great or horrible.

I would have the midfield and backline play a lot closer together, in addition I would not have my wide players pushing so high up. Winters penchant for our backs to overlap leaves our fullbacks exposed and even more so when they push up to join the attack, thereby creating space for the opposing teams to counter attack or simply attack us in those gaps. Then our backline gets put under pressure and viola another 4-0 loss.

Pumas exploited the positioning of the team to its fullest when they were interested early on and we were lucky Pumas got lazy, it could have been 10-0.

This is just one of the reasons I say there has been very little tactical changes to accomodate the weakness of the players.

A win vs RSL or Columbus does not indicate there has been this an improvement, looking at the season as a whole how many games has Winter out coached the opposing team? How often has he gotten the best of the talent we have?

We are on pace for some of the worst GD in league history.

Its all on the players? Thats not true. We did more with less in the past.

Fort York Redcoat
09-16-2011, 06:00 AM
Uh oh wowzbot, you used the "s" word. I agree with you but you might get some flak. Like "tear-this-league-up" flak.:D

But it is my hope that this system will tear this league up.


s word?

Some peoples eyes burn at the sight of the word "system". It's all good. Just keeping it light.:)

Cashcleaner
09-16-2011, 07:37 AM
I'm trying to be as respectful as I can when I ask, how can people seriously put down a 4 or 5 here. What criteria are you going by which ignores our horrible goal differential, total goals against, and overall record against other expansion clubs?

v00d00daddy
09-16-2011, 01:11 PM
I'm trying to be as respectful as I can when I ask, how can people seriously put down a 4 or 5 here. What criteria are you going by which ignores our horrible goal differential, total goals against, and overall record against other expansion clubs?

It's very simple.

Different people have different criteria.

The ones you listed are just a few of many many things that people look at when making their decisions.

There's no sense in re hashing it all but there are lots reasons to be considered.

I know you prefaced your post with "trying to be respectful" but following that up by suggesting that supporting Winter MUST mean a person is ignoring what you obviously consider important criteria is a pretty good indicator that you don't respect the opinions of those who voted 4 or 5.

I'm not sure if you were trying to bait someone into the argument all over again but I wouldn't be surprised if it happens. Lol

Bottom line: different strokes for different folks

Canary10
09-16-2011, 01:53 PM
D-W-L-D-W in past 5 MLS games. That's good form. Something's working.

Cashcleaner
09-16-2011, 08:44 PM
It's very simple.

Different people have different criteria.

The ones you listed are just a few of many many things that people look at when making their decisions.

There's no sense in re hashing it all but there are lots reasons to be considered.

I know you prefaced your post with "trying to be respectful" but following that up by suggesting that supporting Winter MUST mean a person is ignoring what you obviously consider important criteria is a pretty good indicator that you don't respect the opinions of those who voted 4 or 5.

I'm not sure if you were trying to bait someone into the argument all over again but I wouldn't be surprised if it happens. Lol

Bottom line: different strokes for different folks

I just can't see how those numbers are warranted, even if you only take into account the last handful of league matches that Canary pointed out. 8 out of 15 is a littler over half of the potential points we could have picked up.

Personally, I'm looking at how we've been playing before and after the inclusion of Frings and Koevermans and assumed the poll was based on our overall record for the season. Yeah, we've been steadily improving in a lot of ways, but I don't believe it's enough to give Winter that high a score.

Frankly, what would it take to assign him a 1, 2, or 3? We're bottom of our conference and 2nd last in the league with 30 Goals For and 51 Against.

Roogsy
09-16-2011, 09:08 PM
Oh this team is better there is no denying that. I find it amusing that nobody gives any consideration that it took blowing up our salary costs to twice the average MLS team and 3 DPs to reach the glorious level of mediocrity. I wonder where this team would be if we didn't have 3 DPs. From where I stand, the coaching hasn't gotten better we simply brought in ringers. How that makes Winter a better coach I don't know. But I will say this, with 3 DPs TFC better have a spectacular year in 2012 or Winter has taken everyone for a ride.

42% give Winter a 4 or better? I'd love for someone to explain how that he deserves that as opposed to Frings or Danny K. Anyone with 3 DPs could improve a team's record. Shoot, I could coach this team to a better record.

torontocelt
09-16-2011, 09:21 PM
Oh this team is better there is no denying that. I find it amusing that nobody gives any consideration that it took blowing up our salary costs to twice the average MLS team and 3 DPs to reach the glorious level of mediocrity. I wonder where this team would be if we didn't have 3 DPs. From where I stand, the coaching hasn't gotten better we simply brought in ringers. How that makes Winter a better coach I don't know. But I will say this, with 3 DPs TFC better have a spectacular year in 2012 or Winter has taken everyone for a ride.


That makes too much sense for it to be right.

Winter has done a 4 or 5 star job so far?

My mind is blown and my sides are splitting, stop, stop!

Yohan
09-16-2011, 09:55 PM
42% give Winter a 4 or better? I'd love for someone to explain how that he deserves that as opposed to Frings or Danny K. Anyone with 3 DPs could improve a team's record. Shoot, I could coach this team to a better record.

You should ask ny how having 3 dps is working out for them

v00d00daddy
09-16-2011, 10:18 PM
Oh this team is better there is no denying that. I find it amusing that nobody gives any consideration that it took blowing up our salary costs to twice the average MLS team and 3 DPs to reach the glorious level of mediocrity. I wonder where this team would be if we didn't have 3 DPs. From where I stand, the coaching hasn't gotten better we simply brought in ringers. How that makes Winter a better coach I don't know. But I will say this, with 3 DPs TFC better have a spectacular year in 2012 or Winter has taken everyone for a ride.

42% give Winter a 4 or better? I'd love for someone to explain how that he deserves that as opposed to Frings or Danny K. Anyone with 3 DPs could improve a team's record. Shoot, I could coach this team to a better record.

Hahahaha

The only thing you could coach this team to is a better profit margin.

I try not to get into it with you but then you say garbage like this.

Winter has shit out more soccer knowledge in his life than you and all the rest of his detractors will ever know.

Why can't you just wait to see what happens?

Roogsy
09-16-2011, 11:42 PM
You should ask ny how having 3 dps is working out for them

All I have to do is look at the table and low and behold, we are actually lower than we were when the DPs arrived.

But that is unfair, the team is actually playing better I am not blind to that. At least we can score now whereas before we couldn't score OR keep the goals out. But what I see out there isn't a phenomenal team, and I see nothing that points to a spectacular year next year. And the only question that comes up in my mind is: Is the improved play the coaching or the players? I say the players.

It's like the stock market. In a bull market, everyone fancies themselves a stock picking genius. Of course they do. You can throw a dart at the wall and pick a winner. It's these down markets where the real intuition and experience are revealed, and 9 times out of 10, these supposed stock picking geniuses get smoked and wind up bailing out at the worst possible times. I see time and time again.

The same here. Stock the team full of 3 DPs and you'd have to be an imbecile not to get better results out of the squad. And despite my dislike of Winter, an imbecile he is not. And that has never been my point.

But is he a good coach?

All I know is that if Carver, Cummins or Dasovic would have been given 3 DPs, they would have gotten better results too. Even Preki, the coach I disliked the most, would have gotten better results. Maybe we should have kept Preki and simply added 2 DPs? Is that what you propose? Since apparently the solution was 3 DPs not the coach.

I will go as far as suggesting even Maurice Johnston would have done better had he had 3 DPs in his roster.

It's like you guys want to ignore the fact that the 3 DPs are what had in impact on this club and that the improved play of late has been tactical and coaching genius from Winter. Even more important is that it took 2 additional DPs to get the original DP (JDG) to play better, not Winter. Winter wasn't able to get anything out of JDG all year. If Frings hadn't arrived, JDG wouldn't be getting praised on this board, he'd still be getting lambasted. But somehow I am supposed to believe that it's due to Winter? :noidea:

But that is fine, we can have a below-average coach and 3 DPs going into next year. And if we happen to be fighting for a playoff spot, what do we have left in the bag to pull out to make that final push? Allocation room? probably gone. A DP slot? No we've spent all our bullets. So next year there is no room for half-assed results. Either we smoke this league and immediately contend for a solid playoff spot or we've wasted 2011 for no good reason. Like somehow we have the luxury of wasting seasons away.

All I know is that if we had 3 DPs and a capable coach, next year wouldn't be such a gamble. We wouldn't be holding our breaths hoping. We'd have pretty good reason to have high expectations for next year. But the reality is that at this point, few will actually stand up and proclaim 2012 as a definite breakout year and for good reason. Our biggest weakness is still coaching.

Heathen
09-17-2011, 01:04 AM
Hahahaha

The only thing you could coach this team to is a better profit margin.

I try not to get into it with you but then you say garbage like this.

Winter has shit out more soccer knowledge in his life than you and all the rest of his detractors will ever know.

Why can't you just wait to see what happens?

I agree with waiting and seeing what happens regarding Winter at least until May/June next year but come on, that doesn't mean we can't give our opinion. You might as well tell the moddy's to close any post match threads and just put "Wait till next year". Roogsy is entirely justified in pointing out the 3 DPs and what our payroll is compared to almost everyone else in the league.
And soccer knowledge? sorry but however many Dutch caps, European Championship winners medal and World Cup appearances do not automatically a good coach make. Maybe he'll develop into one but he hasn't provided anywhere close to sufficient evidence that he's capable as yet.

Pookie
09-17-2011, 07:14 AM
Oh this team is better there is no denying that. I find it amusing that nobody gives any consideration that it took blowing up our salary costs to twice the average MLS team and 3 DPs to reach the glorious level of mediocrity. I wonder where this team would be if we didn't have 3 DPs. From where I stand, the coaching hasn't gotten better we simply brought in ringers. How that makes Winter a better coach I don't know. But I will say this, with 3 DPs TFC better have a spectacular year in 2012 or Winter has taken everyone for a ride.

42% give Winter a 4 or better? I'd love for someone to explain how that he deserves that as opposed to Frings or Danny K. Anyone with 3 DPs could improve a team's record. Shoot, I could coach this team to a better record.

Oh geez. Ok, before you paint the picture as a team with a huge payroll and no results, let's inject a little perspective.

As of May 11, 2011 our salary costs were no where near twice that of the average team. These were the team averages:

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1774/payrollperteamadjusted.png

TFC is the light blue bar, second bar from the right in 2011.

Since your premise is to use these numbers to knock the coach, I wonder how Hans Backe managed to do what he did, eh? He's the bar nearing $14M. But I digress, he is a superior coach... or wait a minute... maybe not? We'll get to that in a minute.

So, those were the salaries before the transfer window and we had some shit results to match.

Aside from increasing our payroll, what happened after we added those players?

TFC's record since the transfer window is 2-3-2 for 8 points. Not setting the world on fire but an improvement. First three games as the players got used to each other our record was 0-2-1. With 2 weeks to train together, they have improved to 2-1-3. Again, not significant from a rocket up the standings standpoint but some decent results in there. Including the 1-0 win against RSL and the 4-2 win against Columbus. Clearly, as you acknowledge, the spending has brought improvement.

Let's revisit this coaching tangent you introduced and we'll use your favourite tactical genius, Hans Backe.

NY is a few points ahead of TFC in the standings since the start of the season but since you talk about this increased spending at the transfer window and highlight "mediocre" post spending results, let's see what NY has done over the same time frame.

NY's record, with a bigger payroll and superior coaching is 0-2-5.

Your premise is that Winter is brining in ringers and is therefore a poor coach.

Yet your premise in various other threads is that Hans Backe is a tactical genius able to turn a team around in the span of year and yet Backe has a larger payroll and a poorer record over that same time frame.

Hmmm... puzzling isn't it?

Roogsy
09-17-2011, 08:12 AM
Your premise is that Winter is brining in ringers and is therefore a poor coach.

Yet your premise in various other threads is that Hans Backe is a tactical genius able to turn a team around in the span of year and yet Backe has a larger payroll and a poorer record over that same time frame.

Hmmm... puzzling isn't it?

Once again your oft-used tactic of mischaracterizing what people say appaears. Debating with you is useless because you dishonestly portray peoples positions differently than what they stated. I won't frustrate myself by having to defend something I never said. I can only assume at this point your continued insistence to employ such devious methods are intentional.

Roogsy
09-17-2011, 08:20 AM
I agree with waiting and seeing what happens regarding Winter at least until May/June next year but come on, that doesn't mean we can't give our opinion. You might as well tell the moddy's to close any post match threads and just put "Wait till next year". Roogsy is entirely justified in pointing out the 3 DPs and what our payroll is compared to almost everyone else in the league.
And soccer knowledge? sorry but however many Dutch caps, European Championship winners medal and World Cup appearances do not automatically a good coach make. Maybe he'll develop into one but he hasn't provided anywhere close to sufficient evidence that he's capable as yet.

That shouldve been TFC's motto this year: Wait till next year.

I don't know why we even played games this year. Or why fans attended games. 2011 should have been closed for business for TFC and reopened for the 2012 season to a festival of expectations!

In fact I say we double-down on the Dutch model and bring in Ruud Gullit back to MLS. You see his problem wasn't that he was a bad coach for MLS its that he wasn't given enough time. And if playing experience is the proof of soccer "knowledge" necessary to win in this league let's also hire this red-headed former Scottish player I've heard of, in fact he is actually living in Toronto as we speak! How convenient is that! Its written in the stars!

Pookie
09-17-2011, 08:48 AM
Once again your oft-used tactic of mischaracterizing what people say appaears. Debating with you is useless because you dishonestly portray peoples positions differently than what they stated. I won't frustrate myself by having to defend something I never said. I can only assume at this point your continued insistence to employ such devious methods are intentional.

Oh geez.

You said:

"...the coaching hasn't gotten better we simply brought in ringers. How that makes Winter a better coach I don't know."


I wrote that:

"Your premise is that Winter is brining in ringers and is therefore a poor coach."


How in the hell is that a mischaracterization?

Unless you want to suggest that you never portrayed Hans Backe and as example of a "good coach" who could turn a team around in a season???

Try debating the facts instead of slander. Fact, Winter is getting more from his team since the transfer window than Hans Backe is with a larger payroll. Deal with it.

torontocelt
09-17-2011, 08:53 AM
Oh geez.

You said:

"...the coaching hasn't gotten better we simply brought in ringers. How that makes Winter a better coach I don't know."


I wrote that:

"Your premise is that Winter is brining in ringers and is therefore a poor coach."


How in the hell is that a mischaracterization?

Unless you want to suggest that you never portrayed Hans Backe and as example of a "good coach" who could turn a team around in a season???

Try debating the facts instead of slander. Fact, Winter is getting more from his team since the transfer window than Hans Backe is with a larger payroll. Deal with it.

Both records are still poor for the amount of designated players at their disposal.

Pookie
09-17-2011, 08:56 AM
^ Fair enough. However, one team is posting an improved record with an entirely new roster.

The point brought forward by Roogsy is that Winter is a poor coach based on the record and high payroll while Hans Backe is considered a "good" coach even though he has a poorer record over the same time frame and a bigger payroll.

torontocelt
09-17-2011, 09:13 AM
^ Fair enough. However, one team is posting an improved record with an entirely new roster.

The point brought forward by Roogsy is that Winter is a poor coach based on the record and high payroll while Hans Backe is considered a "good" coach even though he has a poorer record over the same time frame and a bigger payroll.

Its a petty argument comparing them both in such a short amount of games when both have records during that time frame which are not impressive. Both should be performing better. I couldn't care less about the record of Backe, I care about the record of our own coach. I always said I would judge Winter at the end of the season but from what I have seen so far i am not confident he will achieve success next year. Obviously a lot of variables can change but I just get the feeling that he will now bring results next season, hopefully if he is still around he will prove me wrong.

Pookie
09-17-2011, 09:46 AM
Its a petty argument comparing them both in such a short amount of games

oh indeed. However, when it was introduced in this thread that someone...

"find it amusing that nobody gives any consideration that it took blowing up our salary costs to twice the average MLS team and 3 DPs to reach the glorious level of mediocrity."

... That someone is speaking about the post transfer window record and spend. The chart clearly shows that our pre transfer window spend was not twice the average nor did we have 3 DPs.

Therefore, the comparison, though "petty" in your view, is the one we must use to debate the point raised regarding Winter's coaching ability relative to the franchise-turnaround-in-a-year model coach that we learned so much about in threads previous.

Yohan
09-17-2011, 10:47 AM
Both records are still poor for the amount of designated players at their disposal.

Dps are not a good indicators of how good a team is

123 elite
09-17-2011, 10:51 AM
i hate stats but the numbers that matter are ...before the new DPS 29% of points available.
After DPs 43% of points available. Still kinda shit.

a win today would make it 50% though. Thats barelyy respectable

v00d00daddy
09-17-2011, 11:12 AM
Its a petty argument comparing them both in such a short amount of games when both have records during that time frame which are not impressive. Both should be performing better. I couldn't care less about the record of Backe, I care about the record of our own coach. I always said I would judge Winter at the end of the season but from what I have seen so far i am not confident he will achieve success next year. Obviously a lot of variables can change but I just get the feeling that he will now bring results next season, hopefully if he is still around he will prove me wrong.

Yes...both have poor records considering the dps and money at their disposal.

But the Backe v. Winter debate is brought up due to th FACT that Roogsy used to say stuff like "Backe can turn a team around in less than a season"

NYRB was the huge crutch that he leaned on and now it's being pointed out that even an Uber genius like Backe can still struggle with lots at his disposal.

And now...when he gets called out on it Roogsy whines about mis characterisations. Lol

I wish I had the time to find all his posts on the subject but I have a game to go watch

Roogsy
09-17-2011, 12:17 PM
Let's clarify one thing: My argument about Backe was and always has been the fact that he turned a bad club into playoff team in one season as evidence that it was done and can be done. Period. Find me a post otherwise.

Now Backe is having problems in NY and I suspect he will be fired if he fails to make playoffs. As he should be. This is a performance oriented business in case some of you have forgotten, and when a team does not perform both coaches and players should be accountable, I fully believe that whether it is Backe, Winter or Sir Alex himself.

But that does not undo what he did in the 2010 season. And it in no way changes my point of view nor have I changed my position. So call me out all you like, do it accurately not with made up facts. Otherwise any of us can start doing the same and since Kreis has been a favourite example of Pookie I will start claiming that Pookie claims Winter will win the Cup in 2012 and just repeat it over and over until it is accepted fact around here because that's how it works right?

Roogsy
09-17-2011, 12:27 PM
As for Backe, I've spoken with some players and there are some real problems in NY right now and it looks dicey. He appears to be the opposite of Winter. Backe seems to work well with getting the most out of lesser skilled players but has difficulties with the marquee players whereas Winter has no idea what to do with lesser skilled players but has more success with talented players. I suspect Henry may not be back next year we'll see, but 2010 is already in the books and his accomplishment and the standard he provided for rebuilds cannot be undone or denied no matter how much some people would like to.

LesH
09-17-2011, 02:41 PM
Oh this team is better there is no denying that. I find it amusing that nobody gives any consideration that it took blowing up our salary costs to twice the average MLS team and 3 DPs to reach the glorious level of mediocrity. I wonder where this team would be if we didn't have 3 DPs. From where I stand, the coaching hasn't gotten better we simply brought in ringers. How that makes Winter a better coach I don't know. But I will say this, with 3 DPs TFC better have a spectacular year in 2012 or Winter has taken everyone for a ride.

42% give Winter a 4 or better? I'd love for someone to explain how that he deserves that as opposed to Frings or Danny K. Anyone with 3 DPs could improve a team's record. Shoot, I could coach this team to a better record.


This.
Today's game (vs Colorado) just demonstrated the same thing. TFC's 2 goals were 2 clinical finishes by the K-man, but without him what would've happened?

v00d00daddy
09-17-2011, 03:00 PM
This.
Today's game (vs Colorado) just demonstrated the same thing. TFC's 2 goals were 2 clinical finishes by the K-man, but without him what would've happened?

So to show that he's a good coach winter needs to win without any dps?

This is what it's come to?

Whatever. Way to enjoy the win

habstfc
09-17-2011, 03:05 PM
This.
Today's game (vs Colorado) just demonstrated the same thing. TFC's 2 goals were 2 clinical finishes by the K-man, but without him what would've happened?

What would happen if L.A. didn't have beckham and donovan? Just a thought.

CSO_BBTB
09-17-2011, 03:08 PM
Also should be remembered that Koevermans is a big improvement on Mista.

starter
09-17-2011, 03:12 PM
While Danny K was really instrumental today, these 2 goals could have been slotted in by any half-decent cf playing his position -- good service on both occasions was more critical.
It is hard to argue that TFC had no identity, and little confidence on the field, and the DPs are here to help change this quicker.

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2011, 05:00 PM
I will judge the team based on the team's performance, not based on utterly fact-free guesstimations about where we would be without three designated players, or where previous coaches would be with them. And that's without even having the discussion of whether a guy like Koevermans would ever sign here if Winter wasn't a) the manager, and b) aware of his skills because of his ties to the Netherlands.

Nevermind the fact that our third DP, JDG, seems to have finally transitioned into a halfway useful player under Winter's watch - and he was previously useless when he had other coaches and Dwayne DeRosario to play with.

We have three wins, three draws, and one loss in our last seven games. That's an improvement. If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas. I'm not going to make the stretch of slagging Winter's coaching ability based on nothing more than hypotheticals.

I also will contend the idea that Frings and Koevermans were "ringers". For starters, signing those two required us to allocate salary that could have been used elsewhere to improve our team. A "ringer" is scarcely even possible in a league with such a tight cap - Thierry Henry is an international footy phenom, and even he hasn't managed to transform NY into an unstoppable juggernaut. We added a defensive midfielder, and a poacher - and one of those guys has been playing out of position 60% of the time.

The changes to our team has consisted of a hell of a lot more than adding Frings and Koevermans, and some of those other changes have been vital to our growth - like Johnson. The argument that those two are the only reason for our improvement would hold more water if half the roster hadn't been kicked out the door during the same window in which they joined the team. When you put that into consideration, it becomes a specious claim at best.

And before any inevitable dig about me "being a cheerleader" or "seeing what I want to see" comes forth, I will point out I gave Winter a 3/5 in this poll. Anyway, back to my self-imposed exile from these irritating discussions.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2011, 05:02 PM
Also should be remembered that Koevermans is a big improvement on Mista.

Ah yes, Mista, our other DP ringer.

- Scott

Canary10
09-17-2011, 06:09 PM
The doubters are starting to look shrill given the form we're in right now.

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2011, 06:14 PM
The doubters are starting to look shrill given the form we're in right now.

I think there are still valid doubts to be had about this team - our defense, for example, is still swiss cheese when under any real pressure.

As always, it's a matter of soft rhetorical digs being lobbed back and forth, and picking the lamest points to battle over.

- Scott

habstfc
09-17-2011, 06:26 PM
i hate stats but the numbers that matter are ...before the new DPS 29% of points available.
After DPs 43% of points available. Still kinda shit.

a win today would make it 50% though. Thats barelyy respectable

50% of points available is better than barely respectable. If you calculate that over the season of 34 games that would amount to 51 points. With 30 games last year that would be 45 points. I think if we got 51 points this year or 45 last year we would have made the playoffs both years quite easily.

Roogsy
09-17-2011, 06:58 PM
What would happen if L.A. didn't have beckham and donovan? Just a thought.


LA has gone long stretches without one or both and have done very well. Listen, TFC is playing well and once again have strung a few decent games together and for that I am happy for the fans who have been long-suffering, but if that were the entire standard why didn't we keep other coaches that also went through periods of success?

Roogsy
09-17-2011, 07:03 PM
Anyways I didnt see the game today, i was moving stuff and starting renos at my new place, I have recorded the game and will be wacthing tomorrow hopefully. Happy they won though, my friends were at the game and were happy they went. Its the 4th time they've been this year and this is their first win.

__wowza
09-17-2011, 07:17 PM
im just trying to understand how when we were shit, it was winters fault.
now, if we win it's the players doing.

do i feel winter deserves a 4 rating? no, i believe its a mixture of him wanting better players, but playing the system he wants regardless of the issues our players are having. it's not helping, but ive said it before, id rather he trains the team in the roles he wants them to play on a season we're tanking than trying to switch formations to eck out wins in matches that league matches that dont mean anything.

__wowza
09-17-2011, 07:44 PM
also, just as up update.
winter currently sits at

AVERAGE: 3.13 stars out of 5
62.5642% approval rating (C-)

(out of 117 votes)

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2011, 07:57 PM
LA has gone long stretches without one or both and have done very well. Listen, TFC is playing well and once again have strung a few decent games together and for that I am happy for the fans who have been long-suffering, but if that were the entire standard why didn't we keep other coaches that also went through periods of success?

Because, as there usually is, there were other circumstances surrounding the judgment of them at the time - what were the real expectations of the fanbase going into the season? What kind of gaps did they have in the roster?

This year was seen by many (maybe most), early in the season, as a year to sort out our shit. Our roster looked feeble at best going into the pre-season, and expectations were tempered.

On the other hand, the year Cummins took over mid-way was seen as a year where we were supposed to have a strong team, and guys like Ives Galarcep penciled us in as a paper tiger before the season began.

Preki came in as a coach with a stellar record of making the playoffs every year, and a staunch defense-oriented coach - and defense was our major failing! What a match made in heaven. We still had DeRo, and now we would have our new designated player for an entire season! Expectations were high, though the fanbase was becoming jaded.

By the end of the year, our locker room was a fractured mess, we still had no consistent striker, our defense was still garbage, and our GM was (finally) canned. Worse still, the off-season was plagued with further contractual spats that had roots in the previous administration.

So given those circumstances, expectations were lowered. Some were lowered as people tried to have patiences and understanding with a new manager, and a lot of housecleaning to be done. Other people's expectations were lowered as they became cynical and or angry with the club and it's short history of mediocrity. Both have elements of truth and fair logic to them. Both also occasionally stray into the realm of logical over-reach and intemperance in adhering to their opinion.

- Scott

torontocelt
09-18-2011, 09:35 AM
Other people's expectations were lowered as they became cynical and or angry with the club and it's short history of mediocrity.
- Scott

Pretty much summed m up there Scott, I have been very nonplussed about the team recently and was thinking of not renewing but yesterday gave me new hope and I will renew again. It was m first game for a while and I am glad I went, after the win yesterday I'm really happy for Winter and TFC.

ManUtd4ever
09-18-2011, 10:00 AM
The key to objectively evaluating TFC this season is to analyze the performance of the club incrementally throughout the last several months. In that sense, it is obvious that the club is finally moving in the right direction.

The first half of the season was disgraceful as Winter and Mariner evaluated the strengths and weaknesses of the club they inherited and partially rebuilt in haste during the off season. The summer transfer window then brought drastic changes to the roster, and the club responded with an average record for the next few games. Once the new players had a chance to acclimate themselves, TFC has played it's best football of the season thus far, compiling an impressive record of 3W 3D 1L over the last 7 matches.

I am confident that the shortcomings on the backline will be addressed in the off season, and next season will produce the most competitive club in the short history of the franchise.

Canary10
09-18-2011, 11:51 AM
Couple of things: for all the people who have been complaining about Winter's tactical ability, he came out yesterday playing a 5 man back line. The first half was the most boring first half I've seen in ages, and I wanted to jump off a high bridge, but he fully took Colorado out of the game. I hope we don't play that way again, but some of you got your wish of a more tactical game. Second half they opened up a bit and played more of a typical Winter game and got the goals. There were scary moments, like the Ecks clearance of the line, but they boys did a really good job of seeing the game out. And Winter used his subs pretty well, bringing in defensive midfielders who controlled the game. On the whole we fully deserved that game against a supposed top team. The score flattered them to be honest.

By all accounts the organization is now professionally run, the locker room is well run and the morale is good. We have two DPs that are working out well, and would not have been here if Winter wasn't the coach. We're on a run of form that would see us in the 50 point range. And we have a very young team. This team's turned a corner.

jloome
09-18-2011, 11:57 AM
Couple of things: for all the people who have been complaining about Winter's tactical ability, he came out yesterday playing a 5 man back line. The first half was the most boring first half I've seen in ages, and I wanted to jump off a high bridge, but he fully took Colorado out of the game. I hope we don't play that way again, but some of you got your wish of a more tactical game. Second half they opened up a bit and played more of a typical Winter game and got the goals. There were scary moments, like the Ecks clearance of the line, but they boys did a really good job of seeing the game out. And Winter used his subs pretty well, bringing in defensive midfielders who controlled the game. On the whole we fully deserved that game against a supposed top team. The score flattered them to be honest.

By all accounts the organization is now professionally run, the locker room is well run and the morale is good. We have two DPs that are working out well, and would not have been here if Winter wasn't the coach. We're on a run of form that would see us in the 50 point range. And we have a very young team. This team's turned a corner.

Astutely put.

Pookie
09-18-2011, 12:59 PM
For those curious, this is how the teams are playing since the opening of the transfer window. A decent measure of our new side vs the rest of the league.

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2343/posttransfertable.png

We are currently in a log jam of teams tied for 9th with games in hand on those above.

Definite progress considering we went 0-2-1 in the first 3 games as new players were brought on board.

Shakes McQueen
09-18-2011, 01:38 PM
And two of those three losses (I believe) came in the first couple of games, when a lot of these guys were new to each other.

It's a better team. It needs to get better still, but a better team it is.

- Scott

Roogsy
09-19-2011, 10:47 AM
Still have not seen the game. I am in the middle of renos and a big move. I've been trying to for a while it's just not a priority right now.

But last night as I was trying to get the crying baby to bed I was mulling over my position on Winter.

At the end of the day, I am by nature, a performance oriented person. (That's for you TFC Regina, LOL! ) Numbers don't lie. They don't tell the whole picture, that has to be done by the observers by filling in the intangibles. But numbers is where I start. What are the numbers?

10 points out of 15.

That my friends, is not something to sneeze at. And I recognize that.

Now, am I changing my tune about Winter? Not really. I still think he is a poor MLS coach. I still think he does not have what this team needs to succeed. I said from the beginning, I think he would have made a better Academy coach than a senior team head coach. Nothing has shown me that Winter has improved tactically. That he has become more willing to adjust. Or that he's improved that bland personality into a manager that can motivate his team to a win. Or his inability to work with lesser-talented players. That remains the same. And I think the danger (like with Preki) is that other teams will adjust, and if he isn't able to respond, the performance numbers will sag. But that will be divulged over time.

What is obvious is that he knows his system well and has found the tools to implement it. Without Frings or Danny K, we still suck. With them? Well, it's quite obvious this team is massively better. Am I happy that we have to spend twice as much as the average team to get equal results? Not really. I think that hurts us in the long-term more than it helps us. But for now, this fanbase needs wins. And the current record (in the last quarter of the year) is much better.

For the next poll, I will be giving Winter a 3 instead of a 2 like I gave him in this poll. Winter deserves kudos for improving a bad record (the bad record he was responsible for, that should not be overlooked) and for bringing in the right players. DPs are famously a hit-and-miss proposition. You could bring in a Beckham that fit right into LA or you could bring in a Denilson or Mista that would bomb. They brought in the right DPs, and that deserves credit.

I will point out one thing however. The recent turnaround once the DPs arrived has been felt within weeks, not months of their arrival. This team started playing better I would say within a 6-8 week period. THAT to me speaks to the more reasonable expectation of a team turning around with the right players. That also proves to me that I was perfectly reasonable to be upset that the turnaround was taking far longer than should be expected and was resulting in far poorer results than was necessary. My position on that has not changed and the fact that we did not have a DP at the start of this season is a big reason for it. If they were going to break the bank with the new roster, then they should have gone for broke and made sure the team was more fully formed at the beginning of the year. These good results right now will not be enough to get us into the playoffs and if anything, the results show we could have if they hadn't been fumbling around at the beginning of the season.

We are also on target to meet the final tally of points I said we would once the DPs arrived. I still believe we will be about 4-5 points shy of the final playoff spot and somewhere between 13th and 14th spot on the table. In our current form, that is where we will wind up.

Like I said, numbers don't lie.

Therefore, since these games are meaningless, there is some level of comfort in not having any expectations. I have enjoyed watching an assassin at work (Danny K) and a much more entertaning brand of soccer. Next year, I suspect we will see lots of 2-1 or 3-2 games (win or lose) and not many 1-0 or 0-0 games from this squad. At least we will see goals if nothing else.

Wooster_TFC
09-19-2011, 10:59 AM
As much as I agree with the sentiment that the team should have been better built in the offseason, it's been stated in interviews and the like that they *tried* to build it earlier. Frings wasn't available, DK wasn't available as they both wanted to finish their current seasons out. Heck, even Keane was a 4.5 million fee when Mariner approached Spurs. I also thoroughly believe that having the preseason in Eastern Europe was a detriment to attracting players, and that the current coaches/GMs that Winter/Mariner inherited thought they had the right players lined up in Ent, Ornoch, and Sidra.

Still doesn't excuse the terrible performances early season, but you can definitely see what Winter is capable of with the right collection of players.

DangerRed
09-19-2011, 11:03 AM
Next year, I suspect we will see lots of 2-1 or 3-2 games (win or lose) and not many 1-0 or 0-0 games from this squad. At least we will see goals if nothing else.

Actually, if you watched all of TFC's games this season, you have been treated to a total of 84 goals -- that's already the most in the league!! :D

Roogsy
09-19-2011, 11:12 AM
Still doesn't excuse the terrible performances early season, but you can definitely see what Winter is capable of with the right collection of players.


I think this statement speaks to my biggest problem with Winter better than any other statement.

Like I said with Arena, when he was missing Donovan and Beckham while they were out on loan, what kind of record were they amassing? They weren't tearing up the league, but they drew a ridiculous amount of games, refused to lose and stayed in the hunt. And when their big guns arrived, they made a run at the MLS Cup.

Winter was not able to do that. I have to agree with you that with the "right collection" of players, he can do better. But what worries me is that he can't do better when he doesn't have the ideal collection of players. And every good coach has to face that possibility.

What if Danny K goes down to injury? What if Frings gets an offer from Dubai? What happens to our squad? I kept hearing that the team is bigger than the players, but can anyone really say that this team is competent without these two players? To me, that is poor team-building and is a reason why I still don't have confidence in Winter. People may dismiss my contention that the recent results are largely based on the DPs, but then the natural counter-argument would be to prove that the team is good without them. Can anyone honestly say that?

That is why while I am less virulent in my opposition to Winter, I cannot say he has earned any of my confidence yet. Good for him, we can coach with DPs. The real question is, can he coach without them?

Canary10
09-19-2011, 11:48 AM
A big part of the job is assembling the players and Winter has done an excellent job of that. Btw, it wasn't just Frings and Koevs this weekend - Avila had a hell of a game, Morgan put in an EPL quality low curving cross behind the back line and in front of the keeper that led to Koevs first goal, etc, etc. There's more to this team than those two players, but without question they are a massive part of the turnaround. My impression of prior TFC teams has been the manager never had a real plan for how the team was going to play, and so player acquisition was piecemeal. Now we're getting in players who can play a system (recognizing we still have problems at the back). Think he also deserves some credit for what is, by all accounts we've heard lately, a locker room that is gelling and plays for each other.

Still question marks, but the progress is apparent.

Canary10
09-19-2011, 11:53 AM
Roogsy, don't bother watching the first half. As I said up above, Winter came out with a 5 man backline and the result was the most boring first half I've seen in a long time. But admitedly, he took Colorado out of the game.

torontocelt
09-19-2011, 11:53 AM
My position on that has not changed and the fact that we did not have a DP at the start of this season is a big reason for it.

I know he didn't play like it for the first couple of seasons but we did have JDG, cant remember if he was injured at the start of the season though.

Roogsy
09-19-2011, 12:04 PM
LOL! I don't count JDG as a DP. The difference between Frings and JDG is that Frings makes players around him better (a quality many of us have touted as necessary for a DP in this league) and JDG does not have that ability. He is paid like a DP, but does not bring anything resembling the quality of a DP.

Yohan
09-19-2011, 12:33 PM
LOL! I don't count JDG as a DP. The difference between Frings and JDG is that Frings makes players around him better (a quality many of us have touted as necessary for a DP in this league) and JDG does not have that ability. He is paid like a DP, but does not bring anything resembling the quality of a DP.

So mista wasnt a dp too then

Roogsy
09-19-2011, 12:35 PM
It's tongue in cheek...but keeping the theme going...nope! He was not!

Oldtimer
09-19-2011, 12:36 PM
The fast turnaround after the transfer window does give some weight, Roogsy, to your contention that turnarounds can be faster than many think. I certainly expected it to take much longer.

I think that Winter was very cautious when he first took over, maybe too cautious. It was like he didn't want to give the team the major overhaul that it needed. Was that due to uncertainty due to lack of experience? Or was it that the suits at ML$E hasn't yet handed him the keys? Or was it due to wanting to give every player a chance? It's hard to tell.

Arena could win without DPs, but don't forget, every "B" quality player one his team was his first choice for a "B" quality player. If you handed him TFC before the transfer window, would he have amassed a great record? Probably not. Would he have ground out one or two more wins? Probably, just because he's a great coach who knows MLS inside and out.

It seems to me that Winter, while he has some good football smarts from his playing days, did suffer due to lack of experience. And maybe we deserved better, although the list of great experienced coaches willing to come to Toronto is probably quite small. What's key to me is that he's learning, and learning pretty well. He got spanked in Mexico, but within MLS he has learned what the various MLS teams are like, and is willing to adjust his tactics accordingly. He's also gotten a lot more familiar with the MLS players. I'm surprised you didn't mention Avila, he's a perfect example of how his familiarity with players is now paying off, and what a great find for this system. The league record since the window speaks for itself. Kreis (you're probably sick of hearing of him) was considered a crap coach in his first year, too, but he learned and has since amassed a stellar record. I'm still hopeful he's our Kreis and not our Gullitt.

Yohan
09-19-2011, 12:51 PM
It's tongue in cheek...but keeping the theme going...nope! He was not!
I realized it was a bit of tongue in cheek, but c'mon. You don't define what is a DP or not. (or else according to you, there would be very few DPs in MLS)

Wooster_TFC
09-19-2011, 12:55 PM
I think this statement speaks to my biggest problem with Winter better than any other statement.

Like I said with Arena, when he was missing Donovan and Beckham while they were out on loan, what kind of record were they amassing? They weren't tearing up the league, but they drew a ridiculous amount of games, refused to lose and stayed in the hunt. And when their big guns arrived, they made a run at the MLS Cup.

Donovan's loan to Everton ended on the 15th of March, the Gals first game was on the 27th. Donovan missed all of 0 games while on loan. Take a look at the Gals 2010 roster, and tell me that there's any starter on there (even missing Beckham and Donovan) that you wouldn't take over a TFC player at the beginning of the year. I'd have taken DeRo as one, but he only other one that I could remotely argue as being a wash is Frei/Ricketts. Also, Edson Buddle scored 7 goals in April.



Winter was not able to do that. I have to agree with you that with the "right collection" of players, he can do better. But what worries me is that he can't do better when he doesn't have the ideal collection of players. And every good coach has to face that possibility.


See above. Entirely different teams IMO. Arena also had two years to build his team before he had to deal with these issues.



What if Danny K goes down to injury? What if Frings gets an offer from Dubai? What happens to our squad? I kept hearing that the team is bigger than the players, but can anyone really say that this team is competent without these two players? To me, that is poor team-building and is a reason why I still don't have confidence in Winter. People may dismiss my contention that the recent results are largely based on the DPs, but then the natural counter-argument would be to prove that the team is good without them. Can anyone honestly say that?


Ryan Johnson can, and has, stepped up. As much as Danny K has been good at putting the ball in the net, he's been hurt and/or out of shape for most of his time here. Johnson has filled the role admirably in his absence IMO. I honestly believe that with the addition of 1 or 2 CBs for next year (depending on Cann and Williams' statuses, knee injuries are tricky), then all we really have to worry about is our depth. We have a solid starting lineup with that, but the depth isn't there, yet.



That is why while I am less virulent in my opposition to Winter, I cannot say he has earned any of my confidence yet. Good for him, we can coach with DPs. The real question is, can he coach without them?

You could also argue that he is able to coach with players who fit the system, rather than DPs per say. Johnson and Avila are good examples of this. Morgan has also started to step up and I believe he's a good fit for this system. While the DPs have made an impact, sure (and a big one at that), it's also been the addition of these other pieces that have made a big difference.

Also, I don't think we can compare current MLS to MLS from last year, let alone 2-3 years ago. The league is growing in leaps and bounds, and being able to play without top end players like you could 3 years ago just won't cut it in todays MLS IMO. It's why you see teams like the Revs, that built year upon year of shrewd decisions and lower paid players, start to fall behind a bit.

Whoop
09-19-2011, 12:55 PM
A team can make John Rooney a DP doesn't mean he's a DP.

Yohan
09-19-2011, 12:58 PM
I think this statement speaks to my biggest problem with Winter better than any other statement.

Like I said with Arena, when he was missing Donovan and Beckham while they were out on loan, what kind of record were they amassing? They weren't tearing up the league, but they drew a ridiculous amount of games, refused to lose and stayed in the hunt. And when their big guns arrived, they made a run at the MLS Cup.

Winter was not able to do that. I have to agree with you that with the "right collection" of players, he can do better. But what worries me is that he can't do better when he doesn't have the ideal collection of players. And every good coach has to face that possibility.
Arena had the benefit of years and years of MLS, US soccer experience. Plus he plays a pretty typical defensive, counter attack soccer which is familiar to most US based players. I'd suggest that this is a bit of flawed comparison.


What if Danny K goes down to injury? What if Frings gets an offer from Dubai? What happens to our squad? I kept hearing that the team is bigger than the players, but can anyone really say that this team is competent without these two players? To me, that is poor team-building and is a reason why I still don't have confidence in Winter. People may dismiss my contention that the recent results are largely based on the DPs, but then the natural counter-argument would be to prove that the team is good without them. Can anyone honestly say that?

That is why while I am less virulent in my opposition to Winter, I cannot say he has earned any of my confidence yet. Good for him, we can coach with DPs. The real question is, can he coach without them?
Frings apparently did had offers from middle east IIRC...

I'd say TFC was still pretty competitive during the few weeks that Danny K was out with injury. Well, at least in comparison to early shambles performance before their signing.

There isn't any data to judge whether TFC can perform without Frings. Easy to speculate though... (but speculation isn't truth...)

Yohan
09-19-2011, 12:59 PM
A team can make John Rooney a DP doesn't mean he's a DP.
now we're talking semantics.

the league has defined what is a DP or not. now we can debate whether that definition is fair or not, but it's not up to us to change that term and how it should be used

Yohan
09-19-2011, 01:05 PM
I will point out one thing however. The recent turnaround once the DPs arrived has been felt within weeks, not months of their arrival. This team started playing better I would say within a 6-8 week period. THAT to me speaks to the more reasonable expectation of a team turning around with the right players. That also proves to me that I was perfectly reasonable to be upset that the turnaround was taking far longer than should be expected and was resulting in far poorer results than was necessary. My position on that has not changed and the fact that we did not have a DP at the start of this season is a big reason for it. If they were going to break the bank with the new roster, then they should have gone for broke and made sure the team was more fully formed at the beginning of the year. These good results right now will not be enough to get us into the playoffs and if anything, the results show we could have if they hadn't been fumbling around at the beginning of the season.

We are also on target to meet the final tally of points I said we would once the DPs arrived. I still believe we will be about 4-5 points shy of the final playoff spot and somewhere between 13th and 14th spot on the table. In our current form, that is where we will wind up.

Like I said, numbers don't lie.

Therefore, since these games are meaningless, there is some level of comfort in not having any expectations. I have enjoyed watching an assassin at work (Danny K) and a much more entertaning brand of soccer. Next year, I suspect we will see lots of 2-1 or 3-2 games (win or lose) and not many 1-0 or 0-0 games from this squad. At least we will see goals if nothing else.
Winter signed on 6 Jan. Very little to find the right DPs, given the circumstances. Plus how many free agents are available in Jan that are DP worthy? Most worth their salt are under contract in Jan.

Oldtimer
09-20-2011, 09:03 AM
JDG's comment on his coaches:


In the games that we have played, you can see that the guys are understanding the system a lot more, have an even better understanding of each other and what Aron and Bob are able to do in terms of bringing the best out in each individual, whether we are playing 4-3-3 or any other system."

http://rednationonline.ca/ResurgentDeGuzmanEnjoyingLifeAtTFC.aspx

Hardly sounds like "shit" coaches.

__wowza
09-20-2011, 02:51 PM
JDG's comment on his coaches:
http://rednationonline.ca/ResurgentDeGuzmanEnjoyingLifeAtTFC.aspx
Hardly sounds like "shit" coaches.

you know what? i completely agree with you and canary on this.
this may be the first time in a long time that all we have to complain about in terms of on field product is the record.

there doesn't seem to be any discord going on in the locker room, players are speaking highly and respectfully of one another and of their staff. there doesn't seem to be any issues, any sour grapes, and most of the stories breaking by news sources are about players who want to play.

keep in mind, this is when we've got a LOSING RECORD.
im not saying this is completely winters doing, but it certainly does seem like the culture is changing. anyone else get that vibe?

Carts
09-20-2011, 03:06 PM
you know what? i completely agree with you and canary on this.
this may be the first time in a long time that all we have to complain about in terms of on field product is the record.

there doesn't seem to be any discord going on in the locker room, players are speaking highly and respectfully of one another and of their staff. there doesn't seem to be any issues, any sour grapes, and most of the stories breaking by news sources are about players who want to play.

keep in mind, this is when we've got a LOSING RECORD.
im not saying this is completely winters doing, but it certainly does seem like the culture is changing. anyone else get that vibe?

I definitely get that vibe...

And for the record, I was/am a big supporter of Dero and wish he was here - so its not a "I don't like that guy and now he's gone all is great" post I'm making...

Perhaps the higher quality players on the club know this is a work in progress for this season. They know to be patient with the support players around them. And likewise, the support players know they have to work for their spot and be a positive team player...

I have no inside info - its just a feeling I get from the same stories & body language we all see and read...

Getting pumped in Mexico hurt, both personally as a supporter and professionally for the club in the standings - but it seemed to be forgotten quickly with the performance on Saturday. I always see that as a good sign that the attitudes are high & positive. In negative rooms, big defeats linger with the club...

Here's hoping this feeling is the right one...
Carts...

lobo
09-20-2011, 03:21 PM
That shouldve been TFC's motto this year: Wait till next year.

for all MLSE teams

i recall going to a Leafs home opener about 15 years ago, and in the middle of the second period a guy puts up a sign behind the glass:

"There's always next year"

Carts
09-20-2011, 03:43 PM
for all MLSE teams

i recall going to a Leafs home opener about 15 years ago, and in the middle of the second period a guy puts up a sign behind the glass:

"There's always next year"

I'm a Leaf fan, and even I think that's PRICELESS!

Heathen
09-21-2011, 09:58 AM
If I was voting now based on the last 30 days I'd give him a 3 up from a 2 which was what I voted originally when the thread went up

Detroit_TFC
09-21-2011, 03:50 PM
If I was voting now based on the last 30 days I'd give him a 3 up from a 2 which was what I voted originally when the thread went up

Me too.

Detroit_TFC
09-21-2011, 03:52 PM
We need those continuous rating meters with a dial. We'll make Mr Winter an app so he can check his instant rating on his iPhone. In fact we want it to scroll on the big screen during the match, like a heart monitor. :)

ensco
09-21-2011, 07:43 PM
I haven't voted and I'm not voting.

These are the questions about Winter that I would like to discuss. I don't know the answers.

1) Are we playing better only because we have Frings and Koevermans?

2) Is there evidence that Winter cares about the kids, puts them first, and is bonding with them?

3) Can Winter make himself understood, or is the language barrier too difficult?


The first one's subjective, but does anyone have any insight on the last two? (which are probably more important anyway)

AlanO
09-21-2011, 08:38 PM
#2 - Winter's given a lot of playing time to draft picks and Academy grads like Morgan, Stinson, Plata and (to a lesser extent) Henry. Plus there's the large Academy expansion underway at Downsview.

While this doesn't necessarily show he's "bonding" with the younger players, he's giving them meaningful minutes, and the Academy investment is not insignificant.

Oldtimer
09-22-2011, 07:18 AM
3) Can Winter make himself understood, or is the language barrier too difficult?


The first one's subjective, but does anyone have any insight on the last two? (which are probably more important anyway)

Julian De Guzman answered this one:


In the games that we have played, you can see that the guys are understanding the system a lot more, have an even better understanding of each other and what Aron and Bob are able to do in terms of bringing the best out in each individual, whether we are playing 4-3-3 or any other system." "The guys are really understanding what Aron and Bob want.

http://rednationonline.ca/ResurgentDeGuzmanEnjoyingLifeAtTFC.aspx

It's not just JDG (who may speak Dutch), it's all of the players.

ensco
09-22-2011, 10:15 AM
I get that JDG quote, it's something, but it strikes me a bit as the sort of thing players generally say.

I'm not looking to reopen the debate about the way a number of ex players have criticized the current staff, but I would love to see real evidence counter to that. Evidence that there is a special bond forming. That, while trades and releases are part of life, it would absolutely kill Winter to do it, and his guys know it. That's the sort of thing that championship cultures share....

Yohan
09-22-2011, 10:59 AM
I get that JDG quote, it's something, but it strikes me a bit as the sort of thing players generally say.

I'm not looking to reopen the debate about the way a number of ex players have criticized the current staff, but I would love to see real evidence counter to that. Evidence that there is a special bond forming. That, while trades and releases are part of life, it would absolutely kill Winter to do it, and his guys know it. That's the sort of thing that championship cultures share....
you know there is good morale in a team by looking at the way the team celebrates a goal. I don't know how many others noticed, but there is genuine happiness for the guy who scored the goal now

I don't know exactly what caused this change in team culture, but surely Winter has to do something with that? (with a strong side of Frings)