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View Full Version : PG: SJ 1 - TFC 1 Deja vu vu vu



Batman
08-27-2011, 08:00 PM
again

TFC USA
08-27-2011, 08:02 PM
We're improving. We'll be a playoff team next year.

dupont
08-27-2011, 08:02 PM
Saw that goal coming for a while before it happened.

Inklink
08-27-2011, 08:03 PM
This league is full of competence.

Gazza
08-27-2011, 08:03 PM
Tough to watch. What else is new? Winter's subs confused me a bit. Hopefully 3/4's of this defense is not here next season.

jloome
08-27-2011, 08:03 PM
Clearly jobbed on the offside call, clearly jobbed on three points, when it all comes down to it.

mowe
08-27-2011, 08:03 PM
Nothing like getting robbed of a sure win to kick off a two week break.

ArmenJBX
08-27-2011, 08:04 PM
Iro's been doing well, but I don't know...I see signs of improvement but it's like, same old same old.
Also, that was not offside..

Batman
08-27-2011, 08:05 PM
wow posession 65 : 35 for SJ

[NBF]
08-27-2011, 08:05 PM
There should be a TFC version of this cartoon:

http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/worldandus/archives/Vietbao%20cartoon.jpg

A.J
08-27-2011, 08:05 PM
meh, whatever. I'm not as angry as I should be.
The league results don't mean anything at this point.

TFC USA
08-27-2011, 08:06 PM
Toronto FC year 5 - Still haven't beaten San Jose at BMO in club history.

Seattle Sounders year 3 - Thrashed a team we have never beaten in our history.


Says it all. No more excuses. This team is frustratingly bad no matter how "improved" they are.

ArmenJBX
08-27-2011, 08:08 PM
http://i55.tinypic.com/a1jwic.png

TFC USA
08-27-2011, 08:10 PM
Shit happens. We rarely get the calls anyway.

But 65-35 possession don't lie.

Can we at least beat Shitlumbus next game?

ArmenJBX
08-27-2011, 08:12 PM
Ty Harden has also redeemed himself in my books. He is a useable sub.

For this reason, he has evaded my avatar curse.

Yohan
08-27-2011, 08:17 PM
As per tfc sop, it was peterson's throw that led to sj goal

mclaren
08-27-2011, 08:22 PM
Let's not kid ourselves, two very, very poor teams here. We scored then bunkered. Possession was something like SJ 60% TFC 40% at one point in second half. Whenever we get any type of result against crappy opposition our fans think we'll make the playoffs next year. We have two teams of our standard in the league right now - Vancouver and San Jose.

starter
08-27-2011, 08:33 PM
I would be inclined to give the team a break today, since they played the Wed/Thu game, but overall very little cohesion still.

Alixir
08-27-2011, 09:15 PM
can't say I am at all suprised that they let this game get away...this team is balls.

billyfly
08-27-2011, 09:51 PM
That's was so onside. Damn.

Over the years I never cheer for a goal until I look at the linesmen.

Happened too many times over the last 5 years at home.

Bars92
08-27-2011, 09:53 PM
Get some more German and Dutch players

Soccerpro
08-27-2011, 09:56 PM
This roster needs a strong upgrade for next year.

Juanito
08-27-2011, 09:59 PM
This roster needs a strong upgrade for next year.

We do, but we can't be song willy-nilly about it. The turnover in this club has been ridiculous. I would like to gaps being filled and weaker players getting better instead of wholesale changes that result in another déjà vu season.

We have let too many players go that have gone on and be good players elsewhere.

Davenport
08-27-2011, 10:21 PM
I don't watch the games any more.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....

Redpunkfiddle
08-27-2011, 10:25 PM
I don't watch the games any more.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....


This is zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Ossington Mental Youth
08-27-2011, 10:34 PM
not our best game by anymeans, got fucked on the second goal but fucked ourselves with shit play and the second sub didnt make any sense to me by anymeans, with our poor defence we should not be bunkering down.

Heathen
08-27-2011, 10:37 PM
Saw that goal coming for a while before it happened.

FFS Stevie Wonder would've seen that goal coming

Dkolish3
08-27-2011, 10:50 PM
We deserved the win but bunkering was the right decision because TFC simply no longer had the legs to pressure the opponent for ninety minutes, my reason for this is that TFC over the last seven days has endured two road trips and over 315 minutes of football not counting extra-time, in comparison to San Jose who haven't had 2 games in a week since July 20th. Yet they still had a hard time against TFC. It's a fact that TFC couldn't run with San Jose for 90 minutes.

Its an excuse but its a valid excuse.

T-boy
08-27-2011, 11:29 PM
We deserved the win but bunkering was the right decision because TFC simply no longer had the legs to pressure the opponent for ninety minutes, my reason for this is that TFC over the last seven days has endured two road trips and over 315 minutes of football not counting extra-time, in comparison to San Jose who haven't had 2 games in a week since July 20th. Yet they still had a hard time against TFC. It's a fact that TFC couldn't run with San Jose for 90 minutes.

Its an excuse but its a valid excuse.

I don't agree that we deserved the win on this one. I think both teams played equally poorly to be honest! That was hardly an example of great entertainment! A draw was a fair result in the end I would say. TFC basically had two "good" opportunities, the one they scored and Plata's offside. San Jose had more half chances than TFC and were really pushing the door in the second half. So, to say we deserved a win is pushing it a little in my opinion.

burlington Red
08-27-2011, 11:29 PM
thought we played ok today, Iro who I think is the worst player we have ever had in our history,he beats Andy Welsh hands down, actually didn't do too bad, he almost played a decent game. Keeper scares the living shite out of me, how poor is his kicking from back passes and he nearly killed with his short passes from goal kicks.
2 poor teams tonight in all fairness, good to see the crowds back, and atmosphere was good, which it hasn't been for a lot of games this seasosn.We're still in progess as we have been now for 5 yrs lol

Borga
08-28-2011, 12:16 AM
Iro is nowhere near the worst. Are you forgetting Garcia? Marco Velez? Kevin Harmse?

andyc
08-28-2011, 12:26 AM
Tonight wasn't about player performances. We need to look at our untouchable coach....

The substitutions we made were nonsensical and show Winters lack of experience as a head coach.... Take a look at the changes and try to think of the formation remaining:

Eric Avila AM for Eddy Viator CD 84 Min
Peri Marosevic RF for Matt Stinson RM (or DM) 58 min
Joao Plata LF for Danleigh Borman LD 88 min

Three attacking players taken off for 3 defensive minded players.... We can not sit back and park the bus with our second choice defenders.The only way we have a chance of being successful is to play our game, not to collapse and throw on our defensive minded players and hope we can see out the time...

Putting defenders on and asking them to play attacking(ish) roles is naive at best and definitely a plain stupid way to defend a 1-0 lead...

Winter is developing players and building a team but he is definitely not a head coach.

jmorgs88
08-28-2011, 12:51 AM
would have liked to see Griffit or Omphroy come in towards the end of that game rather than Viator or Borman...needed some fresh legs up front to create some high pressure...you would think after years of giving up such late goals we would learn that we can just try to batten down the hatches

Strikers
08-28-2011, 02:11 AM
Plata's disallowed goal show's how bad the officiating really is or after that blown call I'm starting to think there is match fixing going on. It wasn't even a close
call. The ball was played way before Plata passed the last defender. I give the benefit of the doubt on a close play but that blown call has me thinking match fixing scandal.

Yohan
08-28-2011, 02:27 AM
Tonight wasn't about player performances. We need to look at our untouchable coach....

The substitutions we made were nonsensical and show Winters lack of experience as a head coach.... Take a look at the changes and try to think of the formation remaining:

Eric Avila AM for Eddy Viator CD 84 Min
Peri Marosevic RF for Matt Stinson RM (or DM) 58 min
Joao Plata LF for Danleigh Borman LD 88 min

Three attacking players taken off for 3 defensive minded players.... We can not sit back and park the bus with our second choice defenders.The only way we have a chance of being successful is to play our game, not to collapse and throw on our defensive minded players and hope we can see out the time...

Putting defenders on and asking them to play attacking(ish) roles is naive at best and definitely a plain stupid way to defend a 1-0 lead...

Winter is developing players and building a team but he is definitely not a head coach.
well, I can see what Winter was trying to do. the lads were dead tired after playing a game on thurs and half a game on wed night, so he put in couple of defensive players to hold on until the end, because the lads really had no more gas left

Yohan
08-28-2011, 02:36 AM
how about Ashtone Morgan eh? Defending could use a bit more work and his first touch and crossing too, but that lad had a strong game offensively. He's got some pace and pop out of nowhere. Lots of potential in this kid

ag futbol
08-28-2011, 06:45 AM
Plata's disallowed goal show's how bad the officiating really is or after that blown call I'm starting to think there is match fixing going on. It wasn't even a close
call. The ball was played way before Plata passed the last defender. I give the benefit of the doubt on a close play but that blown call has me thinking match fixing scandal.
I don't know about "match fixing" but that call was disgustingly bad.

As for TFC, I just want to know the following: if we can be pragmatic about our tactics when we play two games in a week, why can't we do the same when it comes to other matters?

The way our squad looks vs the tactical demands we put on them, it's like we're trying to race the Indy 500 in a Prius. The players who can handle the demands of the system will not take a lot of time to adjust.

It's more important for the group to build some confidence as it stands. Moral in that locker-room must be disgustingly low.

Heathen
08-28-2011, 08:25 AM
Did anyone else notice that from early on Frings seemed to be quite frustrated

maninb
08-28-2011, 09:06 AM
Looks like we'll finish DEAD LAST in the league....abysmal...I'd expect average crowds of 14,000 next year at best....

Macksam
08-28-2011, 09:25 AM
Looks like we'll finish DEAD LAST in the league....abysmal...I'd expect average crowds of 14,000 next year at best....
I wouldn't say that. Home opener will be fine. That game will set the tone for the rest of the season.

Carts
08-28-2011, 09:33 AM
I don't know about "match fixing" but that call was disgustingly bad.


It seems to me that if a linesman in the MLS is unsure, unsure at all, I mean like 1% doubt about a player being offside = FLAG UP...

Even worse, it seems that if they miss a play completely, either by poor positioning, players in their line of sight, or looking elsewhere = FLAG UP...

And even worse, if a player has a breakaway with any kind of decent distance from the defender = FLAG UP...

Redcoe15
08-28-2011, 09:45 AM
Plata's disallowed goal show's how bad the officiating really is or after that blown call I'm starting to think there is match fixing going on. It wasn't even a close
call. The ball was played way before Plata passed the last defender. I give the benefit of the doubt on a close play but that blown call has me thinking match fixing scandal.
Match fixing? No. Inexperienced to grossly incompetent? More likely.

mclaren
08-28-2011, 10:04 AM
I wouldn't say that. Home opener will be fine. That game will set the tone for the rest of the season.

What was the attendance last night? Toronto Star said 21,000+?

Ossington Mental Youth
08-28-2011, 10:09 AM
Iro is nowhere near the worst. Are you forgetting Garcia? Marco Velez? Kevin Harmse?

agreed
hes had some poor games but jesus christ people lets get real and lets stop the pile on

Ossington Mental Youth
08-28-2011, 10:12 AM
Tonight wasn't about player performances. We need to look at our untouchable coach....

The substitutions we made were nonsensical and show Winters lack of experience as a head coach.... Take a look at the changes and try to think of the formation remaining:

Eric Avila AM for Eddy Viator CD 84 Min
Peri Marosevic RF for Matt Stinson RM (or DM) 58 min
Joao Plata LF for Danleigh Borman LD 88 min

Three attacking players taken off for 3 defensive minded players.... We can not sit back and park the bus with our second choice defenders.The only way we have a chance of being successful is to play our game, not to collapse and throw on our defensive minded players and hope we can see out the time...

Putting defenders on and asking them to play attacking(ish) roles is naive at best and definitely a plain stupid way to defend a 1-0 lead...

Winter is developing players and building a team but he is definitely not a head coach.

i gotta say the avila for viator really really didnt make any sense to me at all unless as i mentioned earlier and hes trying to bunker down

Ossington Mental Youth
08-28-2011, 10:14 AM
Looks like we'll finish DEAD LAST in the league....abysmal...I'd expect average crowds of 14,000 next year at best....

no we wont, Vancouver is still below as is new england and the season isnt done yet

Beach_Red
08-28-2011, 10:22 AM
no we wont, Vancouver is still below as is new england and the season isnt done yet

NE have a couple of games in hand, don't they? Anyway, it may come down to the final game against them at BMO.

Shakes McQueen
08-28-2011, 10:22 AM
i gotta say the avila for viator really really didnt make any sense to me at all unless as i mentioned earlier and hes trying to bunker down

We looked tired - my guess is he decided it was wiser to try and go into a defensive shell (which is easier on a tired team), rather than try to stretch forward and get burned.

Of course, that gamble didn't pay off, but I at least think I understand the thought process.

1-1 is an unfortunate result. We should have won this game, but bitching about blown officiating just seems pointless by now. I think playing Wed, Thurs, and Sat had a detrimental effect on some of our guys.

- Scott

AL-MO
08-28-2011, 10:26 AM
Iro is nowhere near the worst. Are you forgetting Garcia? Marco Velez? Kevin Harmse?

Add Adam Braz to that list.

2mil4dero+santo
08-28-2011, 11:09 AM
Plata's disallowed goal show's how bad the officiating really is or after that blown call I'm starting to think there is match fixing going on. It wasn't even a close
call. The ball was played way before Plata passed the last defender. I give the benefit of the doubt on a close play but that blown call has me thinking match fixing scandal.

lol match fixing... yeah coz there's so much money at stake when tfc play san jose...

2mil4dero+santo
08-28-2011, 11:10 AM
Add Adam Braz to that list.

+Marco Reda

2mil4dero+santo
08-28-2011, 11:11 AM
We looked tired - my guess is he decided it was wiser to try and go into a defensive shell (which is easier on a tired team), rather than try to stretch forward and get burned.

Of course, that gamble didn't pay off, but I at least think I understand the thought process.

1-1 is an unfortunate result. We should have won this game, but bitching about blown officiating just seems pointless by now. I think playing Wed, Thurs, and Sat had a detrimental effect on some of our guys.

- Scott

I don't think its a gamble, I think its just trying to give players minutes and experiment. League results don't mean anything at this point, win or lose there's nothing at stake...

T-boy
08-28-2011, 11:14 AM
Way too many of you are getting a fixation over this non offside for Plata, you are being distracted away from the fact that TFC were poor, and if we are relying on one offside call against a very poor San Jose at BMO, then we are clutching at straws.

AL-MO
08-28-2011, 11:49 AM
+Marco Reda

He really should be at the TOP of that list.

brad
08-28-2011, 12:05 PM
lol match fixing... yeah coz there's so much money at stake when tfc play san jose...

You do realize that matches get fixed at all levels, including amature games.

SoccMan
08-28-2011, 12:14 PM
A very bad call by the linesman, another reason for video replay in soccer. I would like a rule where each team can use video replay once in a game, after a team uses it the one time they can no longer use it for the remaining time in the game. A call like this as you saw changes the game and allowed San Jose back in the game. I do realize TFC should have done better in the second half,however, if that goal stands San Jose is not coming back. Moreover, it was a well executed play for the goal, just a lousy call by the linesman period.

Pookie
08-28-2011, 12:22 PM
Some bright spots in our development including Iro, Avila and Morgan (despite the missed assignment).

The biggest question for me is how much bloody water do we need to put on the pitch at the start of each half??

I say when you see puddles, turn off the water

ag futbol
08-28-2011, 12:22 PM
It seems to me that if a linesman in the MLS is unsure, unsure at all, I mean like 1% doubt about a player being offside = FLAG UP...

I don't disagree.

MLS continues to trot out excuses for the officiating when they should be searching for solutions. They can try to pass the buck to the USSF all they want but the equation remains:

Low pay + low funding by the league for training = bad end product

nfitz
08-28-2011, 12:56 PM
What was the attendance last night? Toronto Star said 21,000+?The announced attendance was 21,117 (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/08/plata-call-late-equalizer-robs-toronto).

The game was virtually sold-out, with the tops of light-blue packed solid (this would be the individual game sales, rather than the ticket packages). Any empty seats were season ticket holders who didn't show, or who were elsewhere in the stadium. There were still new people slowly drifting into my section (220) just before half-time, not sure after half-time as I shifted elsewhere.

GBV
08-28-2011, 12:58 PM
You do realize that matches get fixed at all levels, including amature games.

...and the lower-level games are often easier to "fix."
(not saying this is the case or anything, just saying.)

even toronto croatia was named in a match-fixing report (from germany i think?) earlier this year.

Beach_Red
08-28-2011, 01:01 PM
You do realize that matches get fixed at all levels, including amature games.

If the fix was in then Iro would have been called for that tackle in the box...

algieb
08-28-2011, 02:09 PM
we are improving to a piss poor team there are no excuses now results dont lie, toronto played a bad team and were played off the park in the second half,winter does not seam to be able to motivate this team, there is a big difference from coaching a youth team with no pressure for results and bringing on the youth players,to toronto where results do matter as i have said stats dont lie this is the worst toronto team in our history ,we have some nice players but no tactics or great subs from the bench,it was mentioned earlier abt morall it must be low in the dressing room players know they will be moved in the close seasonm so we are back to rebuilding again but we are not moving forward anyone who thinks we are look at the table, performances, results,winter has half a season at most to prove himself to the support iff not 9 to 10 tho will be the norm for bmo

TFC Cityboy
08-28-2011, 02:09 PM
some positives as we progress to the end of the season - namely Morgan becoming a sold starter, Iro improving, and decent fluency up front.
The lads looked tired after 1.5 games wed/thursday, while the offside call was wrong, those are tough to call when the defender steps up and the attacker breaks. The linesman gets one quick view in real time and while I get frustrated at OBVIOUS wrong calls, this was understandable.

Season's over as far as MLS goes, so while it would have been nice to get the points, at the end of the day it will make little difference aside from the debate between us and the Shitecaps for MLS's worst team.
Onwards and upwards. Let's judgee the Winter project this time next year.

bgnewf
08-28-2011, 03:31 PM
TFC Draw At Home to San Jose

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/08/tfc-draw-at-home-to-san-jose/

In this video blog I take a look back at what was in retrospect another frustrating night for Toronto FC as poor man marking led to San Jose getting a late goal from Chris Wondolowski who scored on a free header to draw San Jose level with TFC 1-1.

Going into the international break I also take a look ahead to what is next for the team upon their return to action on September 10th and how a surprising result in the Champions League has given Toronto FC a renewed opportunity to possibly qualify out of their group and into the knockout stages this winter. And I ask if the rebuilding of Toronto FC would have been further along than it is today if the club would have made it into the knockout stages last year.

2mil4dero+santo
08-28-2011, 04:03 PM
You do realize that matches get fixed at all levels, including amature games.

they maybe do if theres something at stake.

nfitz
08-28-2011, 04:18 PM
they maybe do if theres something at stake.Surely they are more likely to be fixed if there's nothing at stake.

The fixing is all about gambling - nothing to do with the teams, fans, and supporters.

69Chevy396
08-28-2011, 05:45 PM
The announced attendance was 21,117 (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/08/plata-call-late-equalizer-robs-toronto).

The game was virtually sold-out, with the tops of light-blue packed solid (this would be the individual game sales, rather than the ticket packages). Any empty seats were season ticket holders who didn't show, or who were elsewhere in the stadium. There were still new people slowly drifting into my section (220) just before half-time, not sure after half-time as I shifted elsewhere.
I was watching the Man U game on TV and noticed that the fans sat in their seats unlike at BMO where everybody is moving around all the time. Looking for the seats, buying beer, taking a piss, going for a walk. Can't blame us for leaving our seats empty for long stretches of time. And, many season ticket holders that I have talked to throughout the season have given up on the team, finding other things to do on Saturdays. I think this Winter experiment is a disaster, and the suits in the mlse head office are going to roll heads at the end of the season. Winter sporting a horrible win loss record means little to the ownership until they are faced with having to work hard to reclaim fan interest and it is going to be harder to gouge us for higher prices in 2012. I predict the whole management team is fired by December or January.

Batman
08-28-2011, 06:17 PM
I was watching the Man U game on TV and noticed that the fans sat in their seats unlike at BMO where everybody is moving around all the time. Looking for the seats, buying beer, taking a piss, going for a walk. Can't blame us for leaving our seats empty for long stretches of time. And, many season ticket holders that I have talked to throughout the season have given up on the team, finding other things to do on Saturdays. I think this Winter experiment is a disaster, and the suits in the mlse head office are going to roll heads at the end of the season. Winter sporting a horrible win loss record means little to the ownership until they are faced with having to work hard to reclaim fan interest and it is going to be harder to gouge us for higher prices in 2012. I predict the whole management team is fired by December or January.

I'd be pretty surprised.. as well as disappointed.

Sure, I'd love them to be doing better.

Winter and team started with a pretty dismal group of players, only about 2 weeks before the preseason, and some significant long term baggage and grievances with some of the few players that were half decent.

Starting over all over again isn't going to be a great solution for next year.

I'd be inclined to give them to the middle of next season. If we are not seriously in contention at that point.. so be it, and off they go.

69Chevy396
08-28-2011, 06:44 PM
I'd be pretty surprised.. as well as disappointed.

Sure, I'd love them to be doing better.

Winter and team started with a pretty dismal group of players, only about 2 weeks before the preseason, and some significant long term baggage and grievances with some of the few players that were half decent.

Starting over all over again isn't going to be a great solution for next year.

I'd be inclined to give them to the middle of next season. If we are not seriously in contention at that point.. so be it, and off they go.
I think the ownership will base there decision on two factors; One, the renewal rate and effort/cost incurred (they hate freezing prices, but may have to, and that will piss them off), and Two: Who else is available, and at what price? We have had one rookie manager after another, and the only one with mls experience was given the boot after a very short time (Preki). The decision to keep or boot Winter will be based on the bottom line. The team as it stands is in a rebuilding phase all of the time, so holding onto a losing coach will not be easy to market to fence sitting fans when season ticket sales begin.

Auzzy
08-28-2011, 06:45 PM
Some bright spots in our development including Iro, Avila and Morgan (despite the missed assignment).

The biggest question for me is how much bloody water do we need to put on the pitch at the start of each half??

I say when you see puddles, turn off the water

I think Viator and/or Harden were the ones not marking on the San Jose goal, no? There were two players unmarked, Viator definitely should have been marking one of them. I'm not sure if Harden actually had a man-marking assignment on that play (in that case, his marking was really bad).

Beach_Red
08-28-2011, 06:58 PM
I'd be pretty surprised.. as well as disappointed.

Sure, I'd love them to be doing better.

Winter and team started with a pretty dismal group of players, only about 2 weeks before the preseason, and some significant long term baggage and grievances with some of the few players that were half decent.

Starting over all over again isn't going to be a great solution for next year.

I'd be inclined to give them to the middle of next season. If we are not seriously in contention at that point.. so be it, and off they go.


Yes, it would be very disappointing to start over again and it's very unlikely to happen. Winter was given a three-year contract (first TFC coach ever given more than one year) for a reason. Everyone knew that it would take a while to build the team.

Wull
08-28-2011, 07:36 PM
I'd be pretty surprised.. as well as disappointed.

Sure, I'd love them to be doing better.

Winter and team started with a pretty dismal group of players, only about 2 weeks before the preseason, and some significant long term baggage and grievances with some of the few players that were half decent.

Starting over all over again isn't going to be a great solution for next year.

I'd be inclined to give them to the middle of next season. If we are not seriously in contention at that point.. so be it, and off they go.

This!

If they sack them, they're going to have to do a lot to convince me to pony up for next year. i'm not saying I'm satisfied, I'm just not interested in breaking with what both sides looked at and agreed upon. i.e. bring someone in and give them at least 1.5-2 seasons to put their stamp on the club

Canary10
08-28-2011, 07:59 PM
I think the ownership will base there decision on two factors; One, the renewal rate and effort/cost incurred (they hate freezing prices, but may have to, and that will piss them off), and Two: Who else is available, and at what price? We have had one rookie manager after another, and the only one with mls experience was given the boot after a very short time (Preki). The decision to keep or boot Winter will be based on the bottom line. The team as it stands is in a rebuilding phase all of the time, so holding onto a losing coach will not be easy to market to fence sitting fans when season ticket sales begin.

Blah, blah, blah.

He's on for two years at least. Winter is quality, one of the top midfielders in the world for his time and he's well regarded in the world footballing community. He's earned a chance to show what he can do as a coach. We wouldn't have a shred of credibility left if he were let go. It's a non-starter so let's move the conversation beyond this.

69Chevy396
08-28-2011, 08:02 PM
This!

If they sack them, they're going to have to do a lot to convince me to pony up for next year. i'm not saying I'm satisfied, I'm just not interested in breaking with what both sides looked at and agreed upon. i.e. bring someone in and give them at least 1.5-2 seasons to put their stamp on the club
Against San Jose, Winter finally did something I thought was a good idea, by bringing in defensive oriented subs to protect the lead. This team has rarely done this in the past, and always finds a way to lose in the last 20 min of close games. Thus, these changes he made were, in my view, a good idea. Then San Jose scores on a goal where the defender lost his man, it happens in soccer, this time you cannot blame the coach. This team is simply not very good. We have to stop comparing the individual talent to previous years, and instead, compare it to the opposition, that is where it matters most. And, like many of you have said, over and over again, mls has improved. But, starting from scratch every season has resulted in this futility; many of these younger players are simply not good enough, and perhaps, never will be. \it is important to be patient, but you have to have something of quality to start with.

69Chevy396
08-28-2011, 08:04 PM
Blah, blah, blah.

He's on for two years at least. Winter is quality, one of the top midfielders in the world for his time and he's well regarded in the world footballing community. He's earned a chance to show what he can do as a coach. We wouldn't have a shred of credibility left if he were let go. It's a non-starter so let's move the conversation beyond this.
Really? Coaches in pro sports are fired all the time. That is normal. What is not normal is to lose money, and mlse will fire the coach before the latter becomes the norm.

Canary10
08-28-2011, 08:11 PM
TFC is a cash cow for MLSE with the salary structure of MLS. Losing money is not something that will happen any time soon. He's started with a crap team and everyone knows it . No one with reasonable expectations thinks it can be turned around that fast. He's here to stay and so he should.

123 elite
08-28-2011, 08:40 PM
TFC is a cash cow for MLSE with the salary structure of MLS. Losing money is not something that will happen any time soon. He's started with a crap team and everyone knows it . No one with reasonable expectations thinks it can be turned around that fast. He's here to stay and so he should.

If he started with a crap team then he's so far got an even worse one. He did that pretty fast.

Wull
08-28-2011, 10:01 PM
If he started with a crap team then he's so far got an even worse one. He did that pretty fast.

Actually, he took a crap team and tried to make them play an actual game of football unlike preki who took a crap team and sat them behind the ball for 90 minutes and prayed DeRo somehow got away from the 3 guys marking him. Their biggest mistake was giving some of these guys a chance to prove themselves. Our biggest mistake was waiting so long to actually hire someone

habstfc
08-28-2011, 10:23 PM
If he started with a crap team then he's so far got an even worse one. He did that pretty fast.

You think this team is worse now than in april, may, june and most of july?

nickio
08-28-2011, 11:39 PM
For what it's worth, this team is finally starting to find it's identity. Our 4-3-3 looks dangerous, like never before. Whenever we get the ball, I know that a lot of the times we'll at least get a chance on goal.

I'm very upset about the result, but I am happy with the way the team played. One individual screwed it up for TFC- ONE!.

9/10 nights that would be a win. TFC actually scored 2, and the last goal against can be sorted out next season by Cann or Williams or whoever else they want to bring in at CB.

Stinson, Morgan and Plata are only going to get better next year. And they are already burning MLS vets with their pace.

I can see TFC being the team that tires out it's oponents with fast attacks for 90 minutes next year. And with improved backline and DP midfield, we can be tough to break down as well.

Blazer
08-29-2011, 12:33 AM
http://notqualifiedtocomment.com/wp-content/uploads/book1.jpg

Fort York Redcoat
08-29-2011, 06:59 AM
Really? Coaches in pro sports are fired all the time. That is normal. What is not normal is to lose money, and mlse will fire the coach before the latter becomes the norm.

Coaches in this TEAM are fired all the time. One doesn't have to look to other teams or sport. It's time to give someone a full year.


If he started with a crap team then he's so far got an even worse one. He did that pretty fast.

We have a better core of players to build around than at the start of this year. The problems the team had at the start of the year were not going away without some turnover.

Fort York Redcoat
08-29-2011, 07:05 AM
I was watching the Man U game on TV and noticed that the fans sat in their seats unlike at BMO where everybody is moving around all the time. Looking for the seats, buying beer, taking a piss, going for a walk.

If crowd disinterest is your basis for fan support level of this team's management I'd like to welcome you to sports in North America.

T-boy
08-29-2011, 08:45 AM
You know we've reached an all time low when we are discussing possible match fixing as a reason for a TFC result! bahahahaha!

Honestly, I think its down to poor management, poor tactics, and poor players! I don't think we need to look beyond that!

Redcoe15
08-29-2011, 09:16 AM
If he started with a crap team then he's so far got an even worse one. He did that pretty fast.
Uh... NO.

Derko
08-29-2011, 10:11 AM
What would all of you say to the Manchester United, Arsenal result over the weekend, I mean a top class team of the EPL allowing 8 goals, horrendous, fire the lot. I know it is off topic, but I thought I would throw it in.

TFC should have won the match, but Football is Football.

T-boy
08-29-2011, 10:21 AM
What would all of you say to the Manchester United, Arsenal result over the weekend, I mean a top class team of the EPL allowing 8 goals, horrendous, fire the lot. I know it is off topic, but I thought I would throw it in.

TFC should have won the match, but Football is Football.

I would say Wenger is under severe pressure right now. I think the only thing that is saving him is the number of injuries Arsenal have right now, coupled with their two best players leaving. I think everybody is assuming that Wenger will replace those two players before the end of the deadline as they "should" have a large amount of money available.

I don't think "football is football" is an excuse. I think just as much as Wenger is under pressure to replace his two lost stars, Winter should also be under pressure right now.

I think if TFC end up last in the conference, which is worse than last season, Winter should be held accountable.

If Preki was held accountable, then Winter equally should be.

In my experience with football, if a new manager or head coach CANNOT turn things around for a team within a few months of joining the team, he won't be able to do so at all. If Winter can't make the on field product BETTER by the end of the season, this is more than enough time to have done so.

Look at Roy Hogdson and Kenny Dalglish at Liverpool, this is a prime example. Hodgson couldn't turn them around, while Dalglish could with the same players. Two or three months is more than enough in soccer-land to see if a new manager has the ability to turn a team around.

Canary10
08-29-2011, 10:30 AM
What would all of you say to the Manchester United, Arsenal result over the weekend, I mean a top class team of the EPL allowing 8 goals, horrendous, fire the lot. I know it is off topic, but I thought I would throw it in.

TFC should have won the match, but Football is Football.

I don't think Wenger will finish the season personally. Not just because of this result, but he's failed to find a decent keeper for years now, and the team morale is at an all-time low. And they're losing badly...all of that adds up to the end for him.

Of course, big international teams playing in the Champions League have their pick of managers who would go there. That's not true in TFC's case. There a few established managers who would want to come to MLS, and not many unestablished managers either. I think we're really lucky to get a guy of Winter's playing quality here, who understands football at the highest level, has a playing career not matched by very many people, and has the experience playing in huge games. I'd take that any day over some guy in the NCAA or NASL or even MLS who has some experience playing or coaching in a North American system that still can't compete globally. Winter has so much experience he can impart on young kids. His goal is to change the way we develop and play football in this country, which I agree with totally. He still needs time for that to really start paying dividens at the TFC level, but it IS starting to show now. I know patience is hard for fans who have seen 5 years of failure, but patience is what's needed.

Canary10
08-29-2011, 10:33 AM
I would say Wenger is under severe pressure right now. I think the only thing that is saving him is the number of injuries Arsenal have right now, coupled with their two best players leaving. I think everybody is assuming that Wenger will replace those two players before the end of the deadline as they "should" have a large amount of money available.

I don't think "football is football" is an excuse. I think just as much as Wenger is under pressure to replace his two lost stars, Winter should also be under pressure right now.

I think if TFC end up last in the conference, which is worse than last season, Winter should be held accountable.

If Preki was held accountable, then Winter equally should be.

In my experience with football, if a new manager or head coach CANNOT turn things around for a team within a few months of joining the team, he won't be able to do so at all. If Winter can't make the on field product BETTER by the end of the season, this is more than enough time to have done so.

Look at Roy Hogdson and Kenny Dalglish at Liverpool, this is a prime example. Hodgson couldn't turn them around, while Dalglish could with the same players. Two or three months is more than enough in soccer-land to see if a new manager has the ability to turn a team around.

Not at ALL the same situation. Liverpool had the players in place. Winter is trying to make playground footballers into a team.

Fort York Redcoat
08-29-2011, 10:40 AM
Guys, international threads are here:

Man United

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=9370

Arsenal

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=187

Or feel free to start a thread about that game in particular in that section.

brad
08-29-2011, 11:09 AM
I think if TFC end up last in the conference, which is worse than last season, Winter should be held accountable.

If Preki was held accountable, then Winter equally should be.

In my experience with football, if a new manager or head coach CANNOT turn things around for a team within a few months of joining the team, he won't be able to do so at all. If Winter can't make the on field product BETTER by the end of the season, this is more than enough time to have done so.



The question is - what is the definition of a turn around? The results in the first half of the season where abysmal. Since Winter/Mariner gutted the team at the start of the window, there has been a turn around. The results have been better - 4 wins, 3 draws and 4 losses since the window opened.

Whether or not this is an acceptable marker of progress or not is something each person will have to judge for themselves.

T-boy
08-29-2011, 11:44 AM
Not at ALL the same situation. Liverpool had the players in place. Winter is trying to make playground footballers into a team.

I think we can make a good argument that the spine of players we had when Winter got here - Frei, Cann, Attakora, DeGuzman, De Rosario, Barrett were a fairly solid bunch. Add to that players like LaBrocca, and the young players that have been a success - Henry, Morgan, Stinson - Winter DID inherit a fairly decent bunch of MLS quality players!

bones
08-29-2011, 11:50 AM
ML$E want to make money here and they've invested a bunch of cash in not only just a team, but an academy and training facilities etc. Bringing in Winter/de Klerk/Mariner was more than just a "turn the team around" thing; it was to bring in a direction for Football in Toronto. They are doing just that, bringing in a methodology and system which will take time. The best part of this long term investment is that our younger players coming through the system will not only fit into the first team if given the chance, but also will be better footballers for it regardless of where they go. Since most of them (hopefully) will be Canadian footballers, that is good for our CMNT too.

When I spoke with Winter in the Midway airport coming home, without specific words, he acknowledged that he is missing a lot up front. Over time we will get the pieces we need to be an attacking style football team. We will get better backup components as well so that the schedule will be manageable too.

I'm sure that this being Winter's first year as head coach would have been difficult enough by itself, but then throw in "welcome to the MLS retard refs" AND a contaminated dressing room, the guy is pretty good at staying focused and optimistic I'd say.

I watch every game in hopes of improvement. I wasn't expecting much this year because I knew it was going to be a total gut job. I think many people get caught up in progress and think we're going to achieve something this year. Let's give this coaching staff to achieve just ONE thing. Break the longest Head Coaching Streak for TFC first, then see where we are ;) It shouldn't be that bloody hard!

Bones...

mastermixer
08-29-2011, 11:52 AM
The question is - what is the definition of a turn around? The results in the first half of the season where abysmal. Since Winter/Mariner gutted the team at the start of the window, there has been a turn around. The results have been better - 4 wins, 3 draws and 4 losses since the window opened.

Whether or not this is an acceptable marker of progress or not is something each person will have to judge for themselves.

Those stats above include wins agains some sub-par concacaf teams. If you base it solely on MLS then its not so good.

1W 3L 3D

Phil
08-29-2011, 12:07 PM
ML$E want to make money here and they've invested a bunch of cash in not only just a team, but an academy and training facilities etc. Bringing in Winter/de Klerk/Mariner was more than just a "turn the team around" thing; it was to bring in a direction for Football in Toronto. They are doing just that, bringing in a methodology and system which will take time. The best part of this long term investment is that our younger players coming through the system will not only fit into the first team if given the chance, but also will be better footballers for it regardless of where they go. Since most of them (hopefully) will be Canadian footballers, that is good for our CMNT too.

When I spoke with Winter in the Midway airport coming home, without specific words, he acknowledged that he is missing a lot up front. Over time we will get the pieces we need to be an attacking style football team. We will get better backup components as well so that the schedule will be manageable too.

I'm sure that this being Winter's first year as head coach would have been difficult enough by itself, but then throw in "welcome to the MLS retard refs" AND a contaminated dressing room, the guy is pretty good at staying focused and optimistic I'd say.

I watch every game in hopes of improvement. I wasn't expecting much this year because I knew it was going to be a total gut job. I think many people get caught up in progress and think we're going to achieve something this year. Let's give this coaching staff to achieve just ONE thing. Break the longest Head Coaching Streak for TFC first, then see where we are ;) It shouldn't be that bloody hard!

Bones...


Great post.

T-boy
08-29-2011, 12:20 PM
I think we have two definite types of opinion that devide us here:

1. You think that Winter has changed a lot of the team this season for the long term benefit, and the results so far are irrelevant. You think that its a slow rebuilding process and we won't see the positive results until next season at the earliest, maybe even the season after that. So, we can't judge Winter on his performance this season and you don't mind that the season is a bust - it is, after all - a "rebuilding season".

2. You think that Winter hasn't improved the squad at all, and his tactical knowledge demostrated during the season has been poor. You think that Winter has had enough time to change things around and we should be seeing very positive results, which we have not. You think that its possible to have good results this season whilst also rebuilding for the future. We (the supporters) deserved good results this season as well as into the future, so you do judge Winter on the results this seeson. Winter is, therefore, a poor coach.

Think we all fit into either one of the other category, if you read through this thread. Some people just want to give Winter time and really don't mind the short term results he has, others don't think he's demonstrated good enough managerial skills.

I, personally, am in camp 2.

bones
08-29-2011, 12:43 PM
I think we have two definite types of opinion that devide us here:

1. You think that Winter has changed a lot of the team this season for the long term benefit, and the results so far are irrelevant. You think that its a slow rebuilding process and we won't see the positive results until next season at the earliest, maybe even the season after that. So, we can't judge Winter on his performance this season and you don't mind that the season is a bust - it is, after all - a "rebuilding season".

2. You think that Winter hasn't improved the squad at all, and his tactical knowledge demostrated during the season has been poor. You think that Winter has had enough time to change things around and we should be seeing very positive results, which we have not. You think that its possible to have good results this season whilst also rebuilding for the future. We (the supporters) deserved good results this season as well as into the future, so you do judge Winter on the results this seeson. Winter is, therefore, a poor coach.

Think we all fit into either one of the other category, if you read through this thread. Some people just want to give Winter time and really don't mind the short term results he has, others don't think he's demonstrated good enough managerial skills.

I, personally, am in camp 2.


I see where you're coming from, but I have to say that I'm not totally option 1 and I'm not option 2. With all respect I acknowledge your choice being 2 but I see bringing in Winter/de Klerk/Mariner as a TEAM not just a coach. Bringing in a System not just "how the first team is to play this year". There is a lot more to bringing in W/dK/M in terms of future at the academy level that I for one, take for full value and that part takes time to see the benefits.

I'm sure there are a lot of people with many opinions here outside of these 2 options. I just hope there are enough people that want to see one coaching team, JUST ONCE, be given full term to see any progress.

Bones...

Yohan
08-29-2011, 12:58 PM
I think we have two definite types of opinion that devide us here:

1. You think that Winter has changed a lot of the team this season for the long term benefit, and the results so far are irrelevant. You think that its a slow rebuilding process and we won't see the positive results until next season at the earliest, maybe even the season after that. So, we can't judge Winter on his performance this season and you don't mind that the season is a bust - it is, after all - a "rebuilding season".

2. You think that Winter hasn't improved the squad at all, and his tactical knowledge demostrated during the season has been poor. You think that Winter has had enough time to change things around and we should be seeing very positive results, which we have not. You think that its possible to have good results this season whilst also rebuilding for the future. We (the supporters) deserved good results this season as well as into the future, so you do judge Winter on the results this seeson. Winter is, therefore, a poor coach.

Think we all fit into either one of the other category, if you read through this thread. Some people just want to give Winter time and really don't mind the short term results he has, others don't think he's demonstrated good enough managerial skills.

I, personally, am in camp 2.

If the recent trend of manager change is any indication, a team usually seeing real results after 1.5 years.

If you want to compare Winter with other managers, see how this year's rookie managers Robin Fraser and John Spencer are doing. And those guys have the benefit of years of MLS experience as coach and assistant manager.

The 'insta-win' crowd likes to mention Hans Backe, but there is a loud rumbling to get him fired because he can't win, and lately NYRB is barely in playoffs. (and NYRB is just as stacked as a team as LA is) Personally, I think Backe got lucky in his year 1.

Do I think Winter is going to bring success to TFC? Maybe. Do I think Winter deserves a shot and a little bit more of our patience? Yep.

as for whether TFC supporters deserve a winning team, well, I'm sure every supporter in MLS demands the same from their teams. lol

nfitz
08-29-2011, 01:03 PM
If the recent trend of manager change is any indication, a team usually seeing real results after 1.5 years.Which is I think longer than the tenure of ANY of our managers!

Feels like pre-season is over ... and we're just about the point where we should be able to start the season ... VI anyone ... though I think we need new marketing. Sex anyone?

brad
08-29-2011, 02:11 PM
Those stats above include wins agains some sub-par concacaf teams. If you base it solely on MLS then its not so good.

1W 3L 3D

But if you put those into perspective - we struggled against Edmonton even though we got the result, and I would place them on the same level as the weaker teams - and away games down South are tougher than the opposition.

I do agree the MLS record is still not good, but beating RSL and picking up a couple of draws on the road is still better than what we have done previously this year.

Again - it's all how each of us judges progress.

brad
08-29-2011, 02:36 PM
I think we have two definite types of opinion that devide us here:

1. You think that Winter has changed a lot of the team this season for the long term benefit, and the results so far are irrelevant. You think that its a slow rebuilding process and we won't see the positive results until next season at the earliest, maybe even the season after that. So, we can't judge Winter on his performance this season and you don't mind that the season is a bust - it is, after all - a "rebuilding season".

2. You think that Winter hasn't improved the squad at all, and his tactical knowledge demostrated during the season has been poor. You think that Winter has had enough time to change things around and we should be seeing very positive results, which we have not. You think that its possible to have good results this season whilst also rebuilding for the future. We (the supporters) deserved good results this season as well as into the future, so you do judge Winter on the results this seeson. Winter is, therefore, a poor coach.

Think we all fit into either one of the other category, if you read through this thread. Some people just want to give Winter time and really don't mind the short term results he has, others don't think he's demonstrated good enough managerial skills.

I, personally, am in camp 2.

Good post, I see where you are coming from, but I don't fall under either directly.

I think that the first half of the season (before the transfer window) was an extended training camp where Winter and Mariner were testing players out to see who would fit and who wouldn't. There is only so much you can see from a player in training, and I think the feel that they needed to see players in game in a variety of roles to gauge who would stay and who would go. I've seen things discussing the need to watch players in matches directly in stuff about the Ajax system - so I think this lends credibility to this. This puts a lot of Winter's very questionable decisions (like Cann at LB) into perspective.

I'm not happy about them using the season for that, and I'm not happy about paying to watch it, but it is what it is.

I also think that we can start looking at the team Winter has now and start to an idea of where he is going. However this needs to be tempered with realistic expectations. This group of players was just assembled and need time to form chemistry on the field (any group would). A number of them are not match fit. We have injuries to our first and second choice CB's. Not every player Winter brings in is going to work out (remember no manger in the world gets it right all the time).

All that said - I see some positives. I see tactical nuances beginning to unfold on the pitch that I have never seen before (like us looking to actively switch the field of play). Some of the execution is bad - but I think we are moving in the right direction. I do think it's too early to tell though how good or bad we will be next year.

jloome
08-29-2011, 05:43 PM
The most telling comments were from Winter and De Klerk last week when they admitted the team gets no time to train together because of the schedule.

The inability to gel late in the year is more common to MLS because of this issue than most other leagues, and it's why a solid pre-season -- which this team just didn't get -- is so important.

If after three games next season we're still shambolic, then he'll be in big trouble.

TFC USA
08-29-2011, 05:50 PM
Toronto FC have won only one league game in which they've conceded a goal.

Says it all.

69Chevy396
08-29-2011, 06:43 PM
Toronto FC have won only one league game in which they've conceded a goal.

Says it all.

Had Winter turned the other cheek and paid Dero a salary that he obviously deserved, many of the losses and draws may have had different results. His 10-15 goals per season are sorely missed here, and, had Winter kept our one, and only mls allstar and best player, the team may still be in the playoff hunt. This is not rebuilding, it is crash and burn. I have been to most games this year and am still waiting for one moment of pure excitement that Dero brought to the park every time he played. Now, when the other team scores that one goal, we are done. Three DPs and nobody who can score a goal. What a fucking joke.

Wull
08-29-2011, 06:49 PM
For the love of fuck, de ro is gone. Let's move on!

In other news, apparently we're a bit too Canadian for jacob peterson. He's a bit too well paid to be a footballer for my liking. And by a bit I mean the fact he isn't paying annual league fees to register is a joke

69Chevy396
08-29-2011, 07:23 PM
For the love of fuck, de ro is gone. Let's move on!

In other news, apparently we're a bit too Canadian for jacob peterson. He's a bit too well paid to be a footballer for my liking. And by a bit I mean the fact he isn't paying annual league fees to register is a joke
This kills me. Whenever one laments at the stupid trade that sent Dero packing we are supposed to ignore this, and move on, like it does not matter. Into oblivion. Players such as Cronin, Labrocca, DeRO, Attakora forget they ever played here, lets just move on. So we move on. To Tchanni, oh but i forgot, he is out too, and Gordon, shit forgot about him too...don't you get it. Winter has no fucking idea what he is doing, this is a crap shoot, and it is failing miserably. I am a season ticket holder. Trading Dero ruined soccer for me this season. I paid my dues for this year, not for next. This year, Dero was the face of the team when they took my credit card number. Who will it be next season?
So, for the luv of....Winter is lauded as some kind of genius, but so far all he has done has continued the Mo revolving door....I am waiting for the jerk to sign Laurent Robert and Mista again.....and the same spin here: move on, all is good. Do some of you guys work for MLSE, cause it sure sounds like it.

123 elite
08-29-2011, 07:44 PM
Good post, I see where you are coming from, but I don't fall under either directly.

I think that the first half of the season (before the transfer window) was an extended training camp where Winter and Mariner were testing players out to see who would fit and who wouldn't. There is only so much you can see from a player in training, and I think the feel that they needed to see players in game in a variety of roles to gauge who would stay and who would go. I've seen things discussing the need to watch players in matches directly in stuff about the Ajax system - so I think this lends credibility to this. This puts a lot of Winter's very questionable decisions (like Cann at LB) into perspective.

I'm not happy about them using the season for that, and I'm not happy about paying to watch it, but it is what it is.

I also think that we can start looking at the team Winter has now and start to an idea of where he is going. However this needs to be tempered with realistic expectations. This group of players was just assembled and need time to form chemistry on the field (any group would). A number of them are not match fit. We have injuries to our first and second choice CB's. Not every player Winter brings in is going to work out (remember no manger in the world gets it right all the time).

All that said - I see some positives. I see tactical nuances beginning to unfold on the pitch that I have never seen before (like us looking to actively switch the field of play). Some of the execution is bad - but I think we are moving in the right direction. I do think it's too early to tell though how good or bad we will be next year.

This is a fairly reasoned arguement but the main flaw with it is a lack of consistency. If we are all supposed to wait for Winter to assemble what he wants and slowly allow it to gel before it bears fruit like some kind of exotic plant then why wasn't that the case with the players that T-Boy mentioned. Nana, Dero, Labrocca, etc were not given a fair shout. And none of them have been replaced with anyone better. So in my opinion the decent players we had in this team were dumped in very little time yet we are expected that the merry go round now is going to bare fruit if we can only wait a little. Its just not consistent. Most people on this board last year would have named most if not all those players as must stays yet the current line up features only JDG. I really wonder if Frei is injured and if Cann will wear a shirt again.

Others on this site have been flying the patience flag too yet if you bring up Gordon (who was actually a decent signing) and its ...'he's always injured. He still is. He had to go'. HE wasn't going to be injured forever. How is that a reason to dump someone? Likewise the 'have you seen Nana's recent games' arguement....what does that prove when he had been pretty decent for us for several years.

My disappointment with Winter has never changed from the start of the season because in all the years i have watched football i have never seen that type of squad gutting ever successful. Even Man City levels of gut and spend don't bare fruit unless done to absolute extremes ie absolute bonkers money. I see nothing this season to give me any confidence. I will give him one more season though

as for tactical nuances... That Dallas game ? I didn't see a switch of play till well into the second half. What is it you are watching ? The first game i watched this season and the last game i watched so far have had the same problem. NO MIDFIELD either to help in defence or move the ball forward to the front line in a successful manner. Its a gaping hole of failure. We rarely ever move the ball through the middle of the park where you have 360 degrees of options. Its always touchline and out for a throw. The defence gets overwhelmed because of it and the attack can't produce because of it. And we cant cross the ball even when we manage something positive on the wings.ITs never been about a bad defence or a bad forward line. Its a bad midfield. Frings should be a big help here yet he is stuck at the back where he is not required. Its just daft.

Wull
08-29-2011, 07:45 PM
This kills me. Whenever one laments at the stupid trade that sent Dero packing we are supposed to ignore this, and move on, like it does not matter. Into oblivion. Players such as Cronin, Labrocca, DeRO, Attakora forget they ever played here, lets just move on. So we move on. To Tchanni, oh but i forgot, he is out too, and Gordon, shit forgot about him too...don't you get it. Winter has no fucking idea what he is doing, this is a crap shoot, and it is failing miserably. I am a season ticket holder. Trading Dero ruined soccer for me this season. I paid my dues for this year, not for next. This year, Dero was the face of the team when they took my credit card number. Who will it be next season?
So, for the luv of....Winter is lauded as some kind of genius, but so far all he has done has continued the Mo revolving door....I am waiting for the jerk to sign Laurent Robert and Mista again.....and the same spin here: move on, all is good. Do some of you guys work for MLSE, cause it sure sounds like it.

Listen, they're all gone (Cronin got sent away for dick all by preki for the record). They're not coming back. I paid for the badge on the front, not the names on the back. I'd love to have kept Robbo, Brennan, Cronin, Tchani, Wynne, Attakora etc. but we didn't so I move on unless someone tries to tell me de guzman has surpassed Robbo in a TFC shirt.

The faces of the club next year will be Frings and Koevermans (maybe Frei if he stays). Frings has been the best player on the park most games and Koevermans has scored goals despite not being anywhere near fit.

Is winter a genius? Not yet. It's funny how DeRo got traded twice to fill a need with you lot but Tchani can't be for the same reason. All isn't good yet but if we beef up our defence in the off season and add a back-up target man we'll be a good side next year.

I'm not even going to dignify the mlse jab with a response. Let's try to keep it on topic.

123 elite
08-29-2011, 08:00 PM
^

depressing... the faces of the club being being 2 players in the twilight of their career. And if it was so simple to be a decent side next year then explain how come after a turnover of 500 players this year we are still waiting for that defence beef and back up target man?

The point he is making is that they didnt have to go. Why are we needing a back up target man to fill in for our injured DP targetman when we had a aguy that scored 14 a season for us and since he has left regardless of where he went popped an easy three past us. We had a targetman. He signed an invisble chequebook. And thats all it took to demonise him on here. The 'getting over it' should have happened a long time ago

T-boy
08-29-2011, 08:06 PM
My big concern is that our "building for the future" currently involved Frings (33 years old) who's legs could give out any day, Koevermans (32) who really, is well past his prime as a striker, and Plata and Eckersley, neither of whom we own. These 4 are, basically, our best 4 outfield players. By this time next season, its quite conceivable that none of these players will be at the club, or fit enough to play anymore. So, they will all need replacing again. So, the revolving door will (possibly) continue!

PAOK17
08-29-2011, 08:25 PM
Isn't De Ro the same age as Frings and Koev's? Hence the flaw in the argument of "building around players in the twilight of their careers". Are they players in the twilight of their careers due to age? Or are they not good? So far they have been pretty good for us and the same argument of "their legs can go at anytime" can so easily apply to De Ro, who as mentioned by the anti-Winter camp was the face of the franchise. So which one is it?

Winter will not be fired this year because he was brought in for long term results and development of a some sort of system. Agree with it or not, you can't fire him based on immediate results just because it contradicts your initial intentions. If you are only concerned about immediate results, you don't go through Klinsman to find you a coach. You find a someone who knows the league and give him one year. If he fails then yeah, fire him. That's basically what we were doing years 1-4 and clearly it wasn't working because every time we would bring in a new coach, he would blow away the entire roster.

If you look back in our 5 year history, year 3 was the most successful. It's strange though because that team started off as being Carver's second year as coach. Even though he left about 5 games in, the whole preseason was under him and Chris Cummins was a member of his coaching staff. We miss out on the playoffs on the final day and since Cummins was Interim (and not as competent as Carver) they decide to let him go. Preki comes in and completely destroys the team replacing guys like Wynne, Robinson and Serioux (all regulars) with guys like Peterson, Harden and Labrocca (I don't care how good he is now, he was very average at best with us).

Wull
08-29-2011, 08:31 PM
^

depressing... the faces of the club being being 2 players in the twilight of their career. And if it was so simple to be a decent side next year then explain how come after a turnover of 500 players this year we are still waiting for that defence beef and back up target man?

The point he is making is that they didnt have to go. Why are we needing a back up target man to fill in for our injured DP targetman when we had a aguy that scored 14 a season for us and since he has left regardless of where he went popped an easy three past us. We had a targetman. He signed an invisble chequebook. And thats all it took to demonise him on here. The 'getting over it' should have happened a long time ago


My big concern is that our "building for the future" currently involved Frings (33 years old) who's legs could give out any day, Koevermans (32) who really, is well past his prime as a striker, and Plata and Eckersley, neither of whom we own. These 4 are, basically, our best 4 outfield players. By this time next season, its quite conceivable that none of these players will be at the club, or fit enough to play anymore. So, they will all need replacing again. So, the revolving door will (possibly) continue!

DeRo is also 32-33 so either your argument sticks for him as well as them or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways, if their legs go next season, his must too right?!

Simple fact is, dero's relationship with the club was untenable. There was no fixing it according to sources on both sides. He's gone, he's not coming back, dwelling on it isn't helping him, it's not helping our club and it clearly isn't helping you guys either.

By targetman I mean another Alan Gordon, one not made of glass this time. Someone to bring on for Koevermans later in the game or when he's injured. Winter gave them all a chance to start with, they failed, he's started moving people out. Not all of them are going to be successful, nobody has that kind of success rate. Not all of them are going to fill the role in the 4-3-3 like they are expected to either.

Is winter going to succeed? I don't know but I'm going to give him time to get everything in place and see what happens. To me, you're pillorying a guy for a move that was more or less forced upon him by previous indiscretions on both sides that he had nothing to do with.

v00d00daddy
08-29-2011, 08:33 PM
Somewhat game related:

Check out what one Mr Jacob Peterson had to say recently on twitter:

Officially moved out of Toronto.5 hr flight back west now.cya Canada.you made my affinity for America even stronger
Twitter for iPhone • 11-08-29 19:30

What a fuckin dick.

That is all

habstfc
08-29-2011, 08:36 PM
Had Winter turned the other cheek and paid Dero a salary that he obviously deserved, many of the losses and draws may have had different results. His 10-15 goals per season are sorely missed here, and, had Winter kept our one, and only mls allstar and best player, the team may still be in the playoff hunt. This is not rebuilding, it is crash and burn. I have been to most games this year and am still waiting for one moment of pure excitement that Dero brought to the park every time he played. Now, when the other team scores that one goal, we are done. Three DPs and nobody who can score a goal. What a fucking joke.

Dero wanted to be traded. I liked dero, If anyone deserved to be paid a lot more money it was him, didn't happen, doesn't matter why he wasn't paid the money. He asked for a trade they accomodated him.

PAOK17
08-29-2011, 08:43 PM
Somewhat game related:

Check out what one Mr Jacob Peterson had to say recently on twitter:

Officially moved out of Toronto.5 hr flight back west now.cya Canada.you made my affinity for America even stronger
Twitter for iPhone • 11-08-29 19:30

What a fuckin dick.

That is all
There's a reason why we in 127 heckled Peterson and cheered Nana (which was acknowledged by him at the end of the game when he saluted us).

If Peterson were somehow skillful, or wasn't given enough chances, etc then maybe his hate for us would somewhat be justified. But in a year and a half, he had shown us nothing of real value that would make me lose sleep over him leaving. He has very poor soccer skills yet he somehow acts as if he is some underrated superstar. His tweeting just makes him sound whiny. Someone should show him game footage of his play with us and ask him if there was anything he did that made him a worthy player on our team.

He went from being a regular on our shit team, to what appears to be a second half sub on another shit team. He could be traded to LA, but I'm sure they already have an equipment manager.

123 elite
08-29-2011, 08:46 PM
The point about deros age is valid. But he was doing it at the start of this season, is still doing it and he did it against us. It was never untenable. that just depends on your viewpoint. I'm not saying he should have stayed or not but if you don't want to pay a 33 year old DP wages when he is scoring and you gamble even more DP money on someone who also appears to be like glass... fat glass at that ...then what have you gained? You have gained something new to try at the expense of something that was working but needed a bit of moulding. As a managager i think the moulding makes more sense than gambling. Thats just how i see things. So many people here expect patience with Winter but are so willing to dump at the first hint of anything negative even when its not on the park related... ie cheque signing. (I would play for TFC for free so should he... right.... well shape up and go play or shut the f up)

And Gordon wasn't/isnt made of glass. He is just injured. Injuries heal. He has actually been more effective for us this season than Koevermans has and i like Koevermans. But Koev is not going to do it here. He just isn't. The reason... he doesn't need to. Frings is class though. So far he has been one of the best to play here.

Yohan
08-29-2011, 09:06 PM
The point about deros age is valid. But he was doing it at the start of this season, is still doing it and he did it against us. It was never untenable. that just depends on your viewpoint. I'm not saying he should have stayed or not but if you don't want to pay a 33 year old DP wages when he is scoring and you gamble even more DP money on someone who also appears to be like glass... fat glass at that ...then what have you gained? You have gained something new to try at the expense of something that was working but needed a bit of moulding. As a managager i think the moulding makes more sense than gambling. Thats just how i see things. So many people here expect patience with Winter but are so willing to dump at the first hint of anything negative even when its not on the park related... ie cheque signing. (I would play for TFC for free so should he... right.... well shape up and go play or shut the f up)

And Gordon wasn't/isnt made of glass. He is just injured. Injuries heal. He has actually been more effective for us this season than Koevermans has and i like Koevermans. But Koev is not going to do it here. He just isn't. The reason... he doesn't need to. Frings is class though. So far he has been one of the best to play here.
good knowing that you know Koevermans so well that you can read his mind

123 elite
08-29-2011, 09:13 PM
^

Well ... based on what many on here say... lets just wait and see.

v00d00daddy
08-29-2011, 09:27 PM
The point about deros age is valid. But he was doing it at the start of this season, is still doing it and he did it against us. It was never untenable. that just depends on your viewpoint. I'm not saying he should have stayed or not but if you don't want to pay a 33 year old DP wages when he is scoring and you gamble even more DP money on someone who also appears to be like glass... fat glass at that ...then what have you gained? You have gained something new to try at the expense of something that was working but needed a bit of moulding. As a managager i think the moulding makes more sense than gambling. Thats just how i see things. So many people here expect patience with Winter but are so willing to dump at the first hint of anything negative even when its not on the park related... ie cheque signing. (I would play for TFC for free so should he... right.... well shape up and go play or shut the f up)

And Gordon wasn't/isnt made of glass. He is just injured. Injuries heal. He has actually been more effective for us this season than Koevermans has and i like Koevermans. But Koev is not going to do it here. He just isn't. The reason... he doesn't need to. Frings is class though. So far he has been one of the best to play here.

So just to be clear. Koevermans is made of glass (fat glass) but Gordon isn't? He's just injured.

Riiiiiiiight.

I suggest you go back and look at Gordons last couple of seasons and then see if he's made of glass or not.

10 games this year
21 last year
25 each of the previous seasons

That's a boatload if missed games in 4 seasons.

But whatever works for you

Yohan
08-29-2011, 09:31 PM
^

Well ... based on what many on here say... lets just wait and see.
I'm sorry? I don't recall many, if at all, people saying Koevermans came here to just to collect a check

123 elite
08-29-2011, 10:00 PM
I'm sorry? I don't recall many, if at all, people saying Koevermans came here to just to collect a check


I didnt say that. what i meant is that if we all have to wait for the Winter's wisdom to pay off then see if i am wrong about Koevs long term effectveness.

Just to remind everyone... we have scored 26 MLS goals this season so far. 26. Santos, Gordon, Dero and Tchani account for 12 of those 26. All deserving of their dumping by many on here. A further 3 are from Martina and Soolsma who are not exactly starting 11 these days. Thats 15 of 26 goals. Thats Winters decisions to dump. (in the case of Tchani and Gordon its to acquire and then dump) If it wasnt for Plata the remaining 11 goals would account for virtually no points.

evermorian
08-30-2011, 02:17 AM
Do you not get it? You are complaining about Winter replacing guys like Santos, Dero, Tchani etc. etc. but you fail to realize the long term view that Winter was brought in for. In the "Dutch system" there is no room for individuals like Dero or guys who aren't consistent and can't play the system like Santos. You need to realize that Winter wasn't expected to change things overnight. Barcelona didn't happen right away. RSL's success wasn't overnight. Sure our team isn't perfect, but it is far better than it was at the beginning of the year. And luckily for us, mls doesn't have relegation, so that Winter can have time to implement is vision properly. I'd rather have short term pain and long term gain, and I think we're deluded to think that TFC was going to be amazing this year.

Derko
08-30-2011, 06:03 AM
Do you not get it? You are complaining about Winter replacing guys like Santos, Dero, Tchani etc. etc. but you fail to realize the long term view that Winter was brought in for. In the "Dutch system" there is no room for individuals like Dero or guys who aren't consistent and can't play the system like Santos. You need to realize that Winter wasn't expected to change things overnight. Barcelona didn't happen right away. RSL's success wasn't overnight. Sure our team isn't perfect, but it is far better than it was at the beginning of the year. And luckily for us, mls doesn't have relegation, so that Winter can have time to implement is vision properly. I'd rather have short term pain and long term gain, and I think we're deluded to think that TFC was going to be amazing this year.

Here,Here, well spoken, and agree 100%, I'm glad to here another supporter whom is not stuck in the instant results paradigm.

:scarf:

123 elite
08-30-2011, 06:37 AM
Do you not get it? You are complaining about Winter replacing guys like Santos, Dero, Tchani etc. etc. but you fail to realize the long term view that Winter was brought in for. In the "Dutch system" there is no room for individuals like Dero or guys who aren't consistent and can't play the system like Santos. You need to realize that Winter wasn't expected to change things overnight. Barcelona didn't happen right away. RSL's success wasn't overnight. Sure our team isn't perfect, but it is far better than it was at the beginning of the year. And luckily for us, mls doesn't have relegation, so that Winter can have time to implement is vision properly. I'd rather have short term pain and long term gain, and I think we're deluded to think that TFC was going to be amazing this year.

Not 'the system' again. The Dutch 'system' has relied as heavily on individual talent since the term total football was coined as any other team has. The many many individually talented Dutch players didn't all become talented because of some system they played. And the many many talented individuals flourished at club level in many different countries because they were simply good individual players. Those terms like total football, samba football, the Italian defensive football, the german machine are just terms. Tactics always alter depending on who you are playing and at what stage of a competition you may be playing at. So enough of this 'system' talk.

I was no great fan of Santos or Tchani but to suggest that they have been moved out for others who can play a system just isn't proving to be the case. We are bottom or as good as. If Santos couldnt adapt to the system then why is Plata still starting every game when he seems incapable of passing to a team mate or using his left foot. Isn't that an indivdual problem issue? Why is there no consistency with that arguement? The reason he starts is because he has a bit of unpredictable individual flair that can result in something. Much like Dero had i would say. If Santos was immobile and incapable of changing his style then why was Koevermans brought in? He is equally immobile and in every game he has played has been invisible for almost all of it unil he pops up and scores. Kind of like Santos really. If its because he is not fit then why are we spending DP money on unfit immobile players that are no better than the unfit immobile cheaper players they are replacing. I didn't expect instant results either but i didn't expect to be last when there are 3 DPs at the club. Our results are not better from a points against POV. The CCL wins are no measure of anything. We may not have conceded 6 or 5 for a while but if that is a measure of improvement then i am not going to say i'm happy with it.

Fort York Redcoat
08-30-2011, 07:32 AM
I didnt say that. what i meant is that if we all have to wait for the Winter's wisdom to pay off then see if i am wrong about Koevs long term effectveness.

Just to remind everyone... we have scored 26 MLS goals this season so far. 26. Santos, Gordon, Dero and Tchani account for 12 of those 26. All deserving of their dumping by many on here. A further 3 are from Martina and Soolsma who are not exactly starting 11 these days. Thats 15 of 26 goals. Thats Winters decisions to dump. (in the case of Tchani and Gordon its to acquire and then dump) If it wasnt for Plata the remaining 11 goals would account for virtually no points.

This makes it sound like the addition of Tchani and Gordon would've been enough to satisfy you. The extra goals Gordon got would've been great until he got hurt. He's no starter and never has been. Tchani wasn't that impressive but wait...he needed more time. Players need time but it seems coaches get none.

I think we got in this situation from impatience. Impatience for results from every manager we've had. So it's not surprising as the years go by we get less patient AND less successful. Our next manager will have to be from the moon to not have heard of what a guillotine this TFC head coach position is.

Couchy81
08-30-2011, 08:11 AM
Not 'the system' again. The Dutch 'system' has relied as heavily on individual talent since the term total football was coined as any other team has. The many many individually talented Dutch players didn't all become talented because of some system they played. And the many many talented individuals flourished at club level in many different countries because they were simply good individual players. Those terms like total football, samba football, the Italian defensive football, the german machine are just terms. Tactics always alter depending on who you are playing and at what stage of a competition you may be playing at. So enough of this 'system' talk.

I was no great fan of Santos or Tchani but to suggest that they have been moved out for others who can play a system just isn't proving to be the case. We are bottom or as good as. If Santos couldnt adapt to the system then why is Plata still starting every game when he seems incapable of passing to a team mate or using his left foot. Isn't that an indivdual problem issue? Why is there no consistency with that arguement? The reason he starts is because he has a bit of unpredictable individual flair that can result in something. Much like Dero had i would say. If Santos was immobile and incapable of changing his style then why was Koevermans brought in? He is equally immobile and in every game he has played has been invisible for almost all of it unil he pops up and scores. Kind of like Santos really. If its because he is not fit then why are we spending DP money on unfit immobile players that are no better than the unfit immobile cheaper players they are replacing. I didn't expect instant results either but i didn't expect to be last when there are 3 DPs at the club. Our results are not better from a points against POV. The CCL wins are no measure of anything. We may not have conceded 6 or 5 for a while but if that is a measure of improvement then i am not going to say i'm happy with it.

I agree with a lot of points you make here, but I also must point out examples such as the goal Koevermans scored with a flick on after a right wing rush and beauty of a pass from Plata in Portland. Those types of goals never happened with Santos or Dero. They scored mostly on shots where the defence collapsed and left them some space, or on absolute bullets of a shot off their preferred foot. I'd argue the players we have now are much more skilled in order to play the game we are trying to play.

No one can be "Happy" about this season, but I am tolerant of it because I do see improvements that with some additional tweaks to the lineup can make our team a contender next season.

Ossington Mental Youth
08-30-2011, 09:01 AM
No one can be "Happy" about this season, but I am tolerant of it because I do see improvements that with some additional tweaks to the lineup can make our team a contender next season.

this

rocker
08-30-2011, 11:04 AM
123Elite -- Plata seems incapable of passing to a teammate? Maybe in the past month he's been selfish in that regard, but for the first 5 months of the season, some of our greatest highlights came from Plata passing to teammates (think of that Koevermans goal where Plata made a beautiful chip shot from the wing to the box for a tap in). His goal against RSL was a pass to Marosevic that happened to go in. Plata's strength IS his passing. The fact that lately he seems more selfish isn't a knock on his passing skill for Winter's system.

evermorian
08-30-2011, 02:14 PM
Not 'the system' again. The Dutch 'system' has relied as heavily on individual talent since the term total football was coined as any other team has. The many many individually talented Dutch players didn't all become talented because of some system they played. And the many many talented individuals flourished at club level in many different countries because they were simply good individual players. Those terms like total football, samba football, the Italian defensive football, the german machine are just terms. Tactics always alter depending on who you are playing and at what stage of a competition you may be playing at. So enough of this 'system' talk.

I was no great fan of Santos or Tchani but to suggest that they have been moved out for others who can play a system just isn't proving to be the case. We are bottom or as good as. If Santos couldnt adapt to the system then why is Plata still starting every game when he seems incapable of passing to a team mate or using his left foot. Isn't that an indivdual problem issue? Why is there no consistency with that arguement? The reason he starts is because he has a bit of unpredictable individual flair that can result in something. Much like Dero had i would say. If Santos was immobile and incapable of changing his style then why was Koevermans brought in? He is equally immobile and in every game he has played has been invisible for almost all of it unil he pops up and scores. Kind of like Santos really. If its because he is not fit then why are we spending DP money on unfit immobile players that are no better than the unfit immobile cheaper players they are replacing. I didn't expect instant results either but i didn't expect to be last when there are 3 DPs at the club. Our results are not better from a points against POV. The CCL wins are no measure of anything. We may not have conceded 6 or 5 for a while but if that is a measure of improvement then i am not going to say i'm happy with it.

I agree with you that you need skilled individuals to play in "the system". In fact, you need skilled soccer players to play soccer period. No matter the system. Barcelona is loaded with individual talent, but what makes them so good is that they all know the system that is in place and play as a team. With Dero, you could argue that he was selfish, and ultimately he didn't want to be here anyways. In a perfect world, Plata probably wouldn't be starting as many games as he is. He is not even twenty and still has tons to learn, but TFC is not blessed with a whole lot of depth at the moment. I never mentioned anything about CCL games, but they have won some games and are much improved I think. Surely, you as a supporter of the team must like it when your team wins right? Anyways, what I was trying to say is that this team needs consistency. Consistency at the coaching position and consistency with the core group of players. You don't have to like Winter, but for this team to move ahead it has to stop the revolving doors at the club. Surely you see the wisdom in that?

PAOK17
08-30-2011, 05:35 PM
First, one of the reasons Barcelona is as successful as they are is due to the development of talent through their system. Look at players they add in after and how easily disposable they are or have been. Names like Ibrahimovic and Henry come to mind. Even David Villa at times looks out of place on Barcelona not because he is not talented, but because he's not a product of their system. So being talented alone isn't good enough.

Furthermore, teams like Barcelona are more than the sums of their parts. Take Messi for example. Everyone credits him as being the best player on the planet. However, the moment he plays on Argentina, he doesn't seem to have that success anymore. It has people even saying that "Messi needs Barcelona more than Barcelona needs Messi" just because the system and players around him make him as good as he is.

Now I understand the frustration with no results this year. However, we as fans are looking at it as 5 years of failure. Winter is not responsible for the previous 4 years of failure but since we can't erase them from our memories we incorrectly group him with the team's failures. We need to realize that he was brought in for long term development and not immediate results. Results now would have been good, too. It's unfair though, to expect the team to make a turnaround when essentially we started this from scratch.

Ask yourselves one thing. If this was year one, with Winter as coach with the same vision of the team as he has now, would you still be asking him to be fired? Actually to make it worse it's year one with him being hired a few months before the start of the season with an inherited team already loaded with contracts that he can't just cut unlike Mo who had almost a year to start building the team. MLSE was sold on some mythical 5 year plan by Mo, and even though most of us knew by year 2 there was no real plan, he stayed on until year 4. Winter actually is here with a plan that makes somewhat sense and people want him out now. Has he even been working for the team for 8 months yet?

69Chevy396
08-30-2011, 07:16 PM
This plan of Winter's, the one where the team builds slowly, and takes much time to gel, should be front and centre when I get bombarded this autumn with requests to renew my tickets. At what price will this patience cost? When I laid my money down the team was not a mess, it was not good, but only needed some tinkering. In December, had we signed a player or two in the caliber of Koevermans and Frings, this season would not be what it is. Instead, we have Dunfield calling my cell number begging for me to show up at the champions league game that nobody I know gives a shit about. The complaint is not that Winter is a moron like Mo, but that mlse would give him licence to gut the team despite the fact there are season ticket holders who expected in November to look forward to interesting and competitive soccer in April. Fool me once, shame on me...fool me twice......you get it.

PAOK17
08-30-2011, 07:20 PM
When Mo was fired last year and there were rumours of Klinsman being used as a consultant I knew that the team was going to be rebuilt from scratch. I also knew we weren't going to be a playoff team this year. Did I see us finishing last? No but that doesn't matter when you don't make the playoffs since there is no relegation. Anyone should have been able to see that. You don't hire consultants so that you can hire a guy that will just find 1-2 signings. You hire a consultant when you have no clue to run the part of your business you need consulting on.

brad
08-30-2011, 07:27 PM
^^Both your posts are excellent. However there is one other time that you hire a consultant - when things are blowing up an you need an expert to fix things fast.

69Chevy396
08-30-2011, 09:14 PM
When Mo was fired last year and there were rumours of Klinsman being used as a consultant I knew that the team was going to be rebuilt from scratch. I also knew we weren't going to be a playoff team this year. Did I see us finishing last? No but that doesn't matter when you don't make the playoffs since there is no relegation. Anyone should have been able to see that. You don't hire consultants so that you can hire a guy that will just find 1-2 signings. You hire a consultant when you have no clue to run the part of your business you need consulting on.
Forget a consultant. Just have an eye on what other expansion teams are doing and copy them. This is mls, not EPL. Tinkering wisely is what separates the good from the bad. Complete overhauls is a recipe for failure. You know things are dour when expansion teams look to Toronto for an example of how not to build a franchise.

AL-MO
08-30-2011, 09:16 PM
I don't know about you but after the 4 year mojo mess a complete overhaul was definitely needed IMO.

rocker
08-30-2011, 10:39 PM
I don't think complete overhauls are a problem. Jason Kreis completely overhauled RSL's roster after he took over. Bruce Arena completely overhauled LA after he took over (the majority of the players in his second season were not on the team that he took over from Gullit). Sigi Schmidt completely overhauled Columbus, while Hyndman completely overhauled Dallas's roster. I really can't think of anyone who took a bad team to success simply by tinkering -- maybe Osorio's addition of Blanco, which turned that team around quickly and easily. Yet after Blanco left (and Rolfe and some other key players) the team has failed.

What matters is that the guy doing the overhauling is competent. If he's not, and you only find this out after a few seasons, then you're screwed.

And winning as an expansion team is very rare -- I believe only Seattle and Chicago have had winning records (more wins than losses) in their opening seasons. Teams with losing records in their expansion season include Miami, RSL, Chivas, TFC, San Jose, Philly, Vancouver (who now cannot have a winning record even if they win all remaining games), and Portland (losing record now although not awful).

I consider 2011 an expansion year for Winter. Where he really can be judged is in year 2, after the overhaul is a distant memory.

Oldtimer
08-31-2011, 07:13 AM
I don't think complete overhauls are a problem. Jason Kreis completely overhauled RSL's roster after he took over. Bruce Arena completely overhauled LA after he took over (the majority of the players in his second season were not on the team that he took over from Gullit). Sigi Schmidt completely overhauled Columbus, while Hyndman completely overhauled Dallas's roster. I really can't think of anyone who took a bad team to success simply by tinkering -- maybe Osorio's addition of Blanco, which turned that team around quickly and easily. Yet after Blanco left (and Rolfe and some other key players) the team has failed.

What matters is that the guy doing the overhauling is competent. If he's not, and you only find this out after a few seasons, then you're screwed.


^ This.

If Winter had taken over the 2009 squad, one could say that only tinkering was needed. However, he took over Preki's squad, and gutting the team was inevitable.

Even so, Winter gave the Preki guys a chance, and only replaced them when they proved themselves incapable of learning decent footballing skills.

The risk is that Winter can't get the job done, and unfortunately, we won't really know if he's a "Kreis" or a "Gullit" until at least the middle of next season, maybe not until the end of next season. Am I happy about that? No way. But there really is no good alternative to waiting it out. Any smart investor knows, there is no great returns without some risk. The same comes with assembling football teams.

The one thing I'm glad is that Winter didn't do the model that the Leafs have used with hockey: Go the middle route. Try to rebuild while still making the playoffs. That hasn't worked in 20 years of trying that strategy, over and over again.

Fort York Redcoat
08-31-2011, 07:20 AM
In December, had we signed a player or two in the caliber of Koevermans and Frings, this season would not be what it is.

They were playing elsewhere midseason. Like most DP's we had to wait till they were finished. If you wanted anyone that caliber you would've had to wait.

Beach_Red
08-31-2011, 08:49 AM
The risk is that Winter can't get the job done, and unfortunately, we won't really know if he's a "Kreis" or a "Gullit" until at least the middle of next season, maybe not until the end of next season. Am I happy about that? No way. But there really is no good alternative to waiting it out. Any smart investor knows, there is no great returns without some risk. The same comes with assembling football teams.

The one thing I'm glad is that Winter didn't do the model that the Leafs have used with hockey: Go the middle route. Try to rebuild while still making the playoffs. That hasn't worked in 20 years of trying that strategy, over and over again.


The first part is true, there's no alternative to waiting. Especially since there's no one at MLSE who can evaluate the progress as its happening.

But the second point - I don't know, this team looks a lot like a hybrid, middle route, typical MLS team. A couple of older DPs (when is Kouvermans expected to play again and will he ever really be match fit?), some kids maybe put in the starting line-up too early, some journeyman MLS players and some guys on loan.

This team doesn't seem to be building any differently than any other middle of the table MLS team (or much differently than TFC built in the past). Scrambling through the season adding players whenever they can. What's so different now?

Oldtimer
08-31-2011, 09:24 AM
The first part is true, there's no alternative to waiting. Especially since there's no one at MLSE who can evaluate the progress as its happening.

But the second point - I don't know, this team looks a lot like a hybrid, middle route, typical MLS team. A couple of older DPs (when is Kouvermans expected to play again and will he ever really be match fit?), some kids maybe put in the starting line-up too early, some journeyman MLS players and some guys on loan.

This team doesn't seem to be building any differently than any other middle of the table MLS team (or much differently than TFC built in the past). Scrambling through the season adding players whenever they can. What's so different now?

such is the reality that a salary capped league entails.

Nicholas982
08-31-2011, 11:32 AM
Do you not get it? You are complaining about Winter replacing guys like Santos, Dero, Tchani etc. etc. but you fail to realize the long term view that Winter was brought in for. In the "Dutch system" there is no room for individuals like Dero or guys who aren't consistent and can't play the system like Santos. You need to realize that Winter wasn't expected to change things overnight. Barcelona didn't happen right away. RSL's success wasn't overnight. Sure our team isn't perfect, but it is far better than it was at the beginning of the year. And luckily for us, mls doesn't have relegation, so that Winter can have time to implement is vision properly. I'd rather have short term pain and long term gain, and I think we're deluded to think that TFC was going to be amazing this year.


There ya go.

jloome
08-31-2011, 01:50 PM
The first part is true, there's no alternative to waiting. Especially since there's no one at MLSE who can evaluate the progress as its happening.

But the second point - I don't know, this team looks a lot like a hybrid, middle route, typical MLS team. A couple of older DPs (when is Kouvermans expected to play again and will he ever really be match fit?), some kids maybe put in the starting line-up too early, some journeyman MLS players and some guys on loan.

This team doesn't seem to be building any differently than any other middle of the table MLS team (or much differently than TFC built in the past). Scrambling through the season adding players whenever they can. What's so different now?

Substantial. Different skills sets, different mentalities. He's brought in flare-type players (Avila, Johnson, Marosevic, Koevermans) on attack, he's brought in Frings in the middle. These are guys who he thinks work better off the ball (in particular), have better overall work rates when covering for teammates. Our big issue continues to be the back line; get Cann back, maybe work Robinson in as well -- but ideally we still need a dominating centre back to start camp next year as the line leader, as well as to keep Eckersley.

algieb
08-31-2011, 07:14 PM
next year is winters year,mid season will be the yardstick everyone is hoping we move forward and start winning a few games, iff not shit will hit the fan, and no amount off sweet talking will sway the fans i.e. time is needed, just look at the stadium just now big gaps at games not so much fun anymore, so next season has to be better for fans and the team, or empty seats will be the norm

69Chevy396
08-31-2011, 09:41 PM
Sad, but true. I know of at least one pair of tickets that will be available next year, and I know several others who will abandon their tickets. We are just bored and fed up. I love soccer, but supporting this team is fucking painful. I am not a big ManU fan, but that game last weekend against Arsenal had more excitement, scoring opportunities, brilliant ball movement, strategy, execution etc. than anything I have taken away from five years at BMO. Not that mls is EPL, but for the average soccer fan, we come to watch good soccer. Somebody telling me that we might see it sometime next year is hardly grounds for optimism. Is the best that we can hope for an average club in a sub average league? When TFC came into being I remember all the talk of a great experience, a great team, playing in, and dominating mls, with many international games against world class teams....all very positive stuff. After five years, it is clear that this was, and is a load of crap. At the rate they are going, by the time this team passes mediocrity and becomes simply average, BMO will be half full at the best of times. It didn't have to be this way.

DichioTFC
08-31-2011, 09:54 PM
Do you not get it? You are complaining about Winter replacing guys like Santos, Dero, Tchani etc. etc. but you fail to realize the long term view that Winter was brought in for. In the "Dutch system" there is no room for individuals like Dero or guys who aren't consistent and can't play the system like Santos. You need to realize that Winter wasn't expected to change things overnight. Barcelona didn't happen right away. RSL's success wasn't overnight. Sure our team isn't perfect, but it is far better than it was at the beginning of the year. And luckily for us, mls doesn't have relegation, so that Winter can have time to implement is vision properly. I'd rather have short term pain and long term gain, and I think we're deluded to think that TFC was going to be amazing this year.

There will always be a place for selfish players in any system, even Winter's.

The RSL makeover began when Kreis got Saborio and then put the role players in supporting positions. Soccer is a team sport, but individualistic players (Saborio, DeRo, Santos) can excel because they will always be given the opportunity to do so in any system. Look at Plata, he's pretty individualistic (rushing plays, not passing when he should, a bit of a ball hog) but give him the opportunity to shine and put role players around him to support him, and you have a shot at glory.

RSL's success was not overnight, but imagine our club with DeRo, with Santos, with Tchani, with Barrett, with Cann, with Nana (from last season). Combine them with Koevermans, with Frings, with JDG (yes, him too), with Avila, and with Plata - you have a pretty dangerous XI right there.

Shakes McQueen
08-31-2011, 09:54 PM
Sad, but true. I know of at least one pair of tickets that will be available next year, and I know several others who will abandon their tickets. We are just bored and fed up. I love soccer, but supporting this team is fucking painful. I am not a big ManU fan, but that game last weekend against Arsenal had more excitement, scoring opportunities, brilliant ball movement, strategy, execution etc. than anything I have taken away from five years at BMO. Not that mls is EPL, but for the average soccer fan, we come to watch good soccer. Somebody telling me that we might see it sometime next year is hardly grounds for optimism. Is the best that we can hope for an average club in a sub average league? When TFC came into being I remember all the talk of a great experience, a great team, playing in, and dominating mls, with many international games against world class teams....all very positive stuff. After five years, it is clear that this was, and is a load of crap. At the rate they are going, by the time this team passes mediocrity and becomes simply average, BMO will be half full at the best of times. It didn't have to be this way.

Fair enough. See ya later.

- Scott

CSO_BBTB
08-31-2011, 09:58 PM
....I love soccer, but supporting this team is fucking painful. I am not a big ManU fan, but....

Unless you are from Manchester (arguably Salford if you listen to bitter City fans) originally or your family is from there what possible connection could you ever have to Manchester United in emotional terms? If you go through the lean years success when it arrives will be all the more exhilarating.

DichioTFC
08-31-2011, 10:00 PM
Sad, but true. I know of at least one pair of tickets that will be available next year, and I know several others who will abandon their tickets. We are just bored and fed up. I love soccer, but supporting this team is fucking painful. I am not a big ManU fan, but that game last weekend against Arsenal had more excitement, scoring opportunities, brilliant ball movement, strategy, execution etc. than anything I have taken away from five years at BMO. Not that mls is EPL, but for the average soccer fan, we come to watch good soccer. Somebody telling me that we might see it sometime next year is hardly grounds for optimism. Is the best that we can hope for an average club in a sub average league? When TFC came into being I remember all the talk of a great experience, a great team, playing in, and dominating mls, with many international games against world class teams....all very positive stuff. After five years, it is clear that this was, and is a load of crap. At the rate they are going, by the time this team passes mediocrity and becomes simply average, BMO will be half full at the best of times. It didn't have to be this way.

Speaking to that point - why do we protest mid-season friendlies against the world's elite teams? I never understood the Real Madrid protest. Watching that game was probably the most entertaining game I had seen in person all year.

CSO_BBTB
08-31-2011, 10:03 PM
...because if players get injured as happened against Aston Villa it can cause problems in the games that actually matter. Also the rip-off angle on ticket prices when the opponent fields a reserve team for the most part.

Fort York Redcoat
09-01-2011, 06:39 AM
Sad, but true. I know of at least one pair of tickets that will be available next year, and I know several others who will abandon their tickets. We are just bored and fed up. I love soccer, but supporting this team is fucking painful. I am not a big ManU fan, but that game last weekend against Arsenal had more excitement, scoring opportunities, brilliant ball movement, strategy, execution etc. than anything I have taken away from five years at BMO. Not that mls is EPL, but for the average soccer fan, we come to watch good soccer. Somebody telling me that we might see it sometime next year is hardly grounds for optimism. Is the best that we can hope for an average club in a sub average league? When TFC came into being I remember all the talk of a great experience, a great team, playing in, and dominating mls, with many international games against world class teams....all very positive stuff. After five years, it is clear that this was, and is a load of crap. At the rate they are going, by the time this team passes mediocrity and becomes simply average, BMO will be half full at the best of times. It didn't have to be this way.

It isn't.

And that Man United Arsenal match is an idiotic comparison. That game was unmatched on a worldwide level. So what are you expecting? Mediocrity or Man United excellence this year?

T-boy
09-01-2011, 09:02 AM
Fair enough. See ya later.

- Scott

It's fair enough telling people to go, or leave etc. I can see why we (hardcore TFC supporters) don't want people who aren't "in it for the entire ride" to be around.

BUT, I'm beginning to wonder if we (myself included) are just plain bat-sh1t insane?! I mean, my best two memories of TFC are Danny Dichio scoring a goal 5 years ago and then frisbees being thrown on the pitch, and a squirrel running into a goal. Honestly, that's ALL we have going for us. My "good memories" of TFC, other than those two things, are minimal.

So, really, us hardcore fans are really ONLY here because of HOPE. Hope that we might, one day, see something decent, and have some memories that aren't just plain ridiculous!

I do leave almost every TFC game thinking "why, why am I here, I'm just miserable now?!". It's even worse this season as nearly every game is on a Saturday evening. Each week I tell my friends that I "can't come out to your X, Y, Z event as I'm at a game". Then at the end of the game, I'm like "WTF, why did I not just go and do something else, I've spent another Saturday evening getting frustrated and then depressed!"

So, I don't think we can tell people to leave. Cos the rest of us, really, must be slightly f-ing crazy. I know I must be....otherwise I would have given up my season ticket a long time ago!

Being a die-hard TFC supporter is quite a sad life, to be honest :( We can't really tell people to leave. I'm not going to judge somebody if they've had enough of TFC, because I think its ok to have had enough. The rest of us who are still here, are just mad-hatter bat-sh1t-crazy lunatics!

Fort York Redcoat
09-01-2011, 09:10 AM
We're not telling people to leave. If people want to leave- especially those that think they should tell everyone else why they should as well- I, for one, am going to do absolutely nothing to impede their exodus.

BTW I prefer the constant frustration of having a struggling home side that I can go and see every week than staying home or down the pub singing songs about people and places I could never see frequently. The interaction with my team is far superior in worth to me than clapping at the tv screen for 8 goals.*

*that said, it was a great game:D

rocker
09-01-2011, 09:22 AM
I took a friend who had never attended a TFC game to the Dallas game awhile back (1-0 loss, Brek Shea goal).

He loved it. He wants to come back. He enjoyed the match, even though TFC lost. He thought the supporters were great and sounded very loud.

I think sometimes the longer-term fans bring too much baggage to each game. It was nice to see it from his fresh eyes.

Roogsy
09-01-2011, 09:24 AM
We're not telling people to leave. If people want to leave- especially those that think they should tell everyone else why they should as well- I, for one, am going to do absolutely nothing to impede their exodus.

Not true. Maybe you haven't, but there have been many fans at the stadium and on this board that have invited people to leave. I know because it's been said to me.


BTW I prefer the constant frustration of having a struggling home side that I can go and see every week than staying home or down the pub singing songs about people and places I could never see frequently. The interaction with my team is far superior in worth to me than clapping at the tv screen for 8 goals.*

*that said, it was a great game:D

I've stayed out of this thread intentionally but it's posts like this that disappoint me and is the reason why I think I have less and less in commong with other TFC "fans". This attitude right here is the very definition of accepting mediocrity. It's like the choices that have been laid before us are either to cheer for a big club overseas or cheer for a shit club at our doorstep. That's it. Like somehow there isn't a third choice, but we're just too weak to demand it.

T-boy
09-01-2011, 09:24 AM
I took a friend who had never attended a TFC game to the Dallas game (1-0 loss).

He loved it. He wants to come back. He enjoyed the match, even though TFC lost. He thought the supporters were great and sounded very loud.

I think sometimes the longer-term fans bring too much baggage to each game. It was nice to see it from his fresh eyes.

Probably because your friend had a crush on Brek Shea. I know I did after his goal!

Oldtimer
09-01-2011, 09:40 AM
I've stayed out of this thread intentionally but it's posts like this that disappoint me and is the reason why I think I have less and less in commong with other TFC "fans". This attitude right here is the very definition of accepting mediocrity. It's like the choices that have been laid before us are either to cheer for a big club overseas or cheer for a shit club at our doorstep. That's it. Like somehow there isn't a third choice, but we're just too weak to demand it.

Anyone who watches MLS accepts a certain amount of mediocrity... the whole league is, well mediocre.

How much will people accept a team that's mediocre relative to this mediocre league? (mediocre squared? :lol: ). I can't see anybody happy about this situation. Some have hope still that it will get better (in fact that both the team and the league will get better) over time.

Roogsy
09-01-2011, 09:50 AM
I used far more complimentary language than the facts prove OT.

This team isn't mediocre. The stats reveal a team so far below mediocre that I don't even know what word can be used to describe it.

For example, in the 4.5 years this club has existed, we have achieved the ignominious distinction of having the worst all-time cumulative goal differential amongst all teams in MLS, including those that have had a long history of underperforming for a lot longer than we have and held that distinction after being in the league a lot longer than 4.5 years. That is just one of many stats that pinpoint how bad TFC has been.

It is almost difficult to argue against the fact that we are probably the worst team in MLS history.

That is not mediocrity. I was being flattering.

So when you achieve that level of ineptitude in a league that is already mediocre...well...that's a special kind of achievement. People shouldn't just "not be happy". If that is the extent of our reaction to such a failure then there is no hope for the fans of this club to ever rise up and challenge this club no matter how bad it has been or ever will be. We will simply accept anything. And I can't do that. I won't do that.

Beach_Red
09-01-2011, 09:54 AM
The problem we have here is that TFC will never be a "plucky underdog." We expected that by being one of the only sold-out stadiums in the league and owners with such deep pockets that we'd see success a lot sooner. We expected to be at the top of a medicore league.

Fort York Redcoat
09-01-2011, 10:04 AM
Maybe you haven't, but there have been many fans at the stadium and on this board that have invited people to leave. I know because it's been said to me.

Correct. I have not invited anyone to leave and don't consider myself on side with those who would invite you to leave.


I've stayed out of this thread intentionally but it's posts like this that disappoint me and is the reason why I think I have less and less in commong with other TFC "fans". This attitude right here is the very definition of accepting mediocrity. It's like the choices that have been laid before us are either to cheer for a big club overseas or cheer for a shit club at our doorstep. That's it. Like somehow there isn't a third choice, but we're just too weak to demand it.

It's a matter of time. Pure and simple. How much time will you give this team to improve? And your demands for a better team- How are they being met so far?

I don't want mediocrity but I'm not walking away to better the team without me there either.

Roogsy
09-01-2011, 10:10 AM
It's a matter of time. Pure and simple. How much time will you give this team to improve? And your demands for a better team- How are they being met so far?

I don't want mediocrity but I'm not walking away to better the team without me there either.

Again with the false dilemma. You don't need to walk away from the team in order to receive better than mediocrity (or in our case, worse than mediocrity). But that's the problem with TFC fans. Mo Johnson leaving as late as he did falls on our shoulders just as much as it does on Tom A. We only stepped up and made ourselves heard once the team had completely fallen into a pit of dispair. It's like we believe closing the barn doors after the horses have escaped is a sound strategy. And even then, people almost had to be strong-armed to do so.

The truth is that despite the fact that this team has still underperformed, nobody at the organization is feeling any heat or pressure. And that is never a good thing. Complacency is the enemy of progress.

Fort York Redcoat
09-01-2011, 10:11 AM
So when you achieve that level of ineptitude in a league that is already mediocre...well...that's a special kind of achievement. People shouldn't just "not be happy". If that is the extent of our reaction to such a failure then there is no hope for the fans of this club to ever rise up and challenge this club no matter how bad it has been or ever will be. We will simply accept anything. And I can't do that. I won't do that.

Another scolding without suggestion.

I'm not unhappy enough? I can see why you're avoiding this thread with it's present direction.

Fort York Redcoat
09-01-2011, 10:14 AM
Again with the false dilemma. You don't need to walk away from the team in order to receive better than mediocrity (or in our case, worse than mediocrity). But that's the problem with TFC fans. Mo Johnson leaving as late as he did falls on our shoulders just as much as it does on Tom A. We only stepped up and made ourselves heard once the team had completely fallen into a pit of dispair. It's like we believe closing the barn doors after the horses have escaped is a sound strategy. And even then, people almost had to be strong-armed to do so.

The truth is that despite the fact that this team has still underperformed, nobody at the organization is feeling any heat or pressure. And that is never a good thing. Complacency is the enemy of progress.


This sounds like you want to do something about it.

If so let's leave the complacency of past years where they are. In the past. There is no RPB Time travel team.

This is turning into a conversation of 2. PM if you want to talk more. I'll leave you get the last word on this one...

Roogsy
09-01-2011, 10:17 AM
The complacency of the past years has not been discontinued. It remains with us today. You don't need to time travel to see it.

T-boy
09-01-2011, 10:19 AM
Talking about a mediocre league is kind of interesting.

To me, a mediocre league does NOT have to mean bad football or bad entertainment.

When I'm back in England I watch Conference football, as that is where my local team play. When I go see them, the games are nearly always very entertaining...lots of goal scoring opportunities etc. Rarely do I see games controlled in the middle of the pitch where its boring (like I nearly always do at BMO).

And I think we would ALL agree that English Conference football is nothing more than mediocre in "class" at best.

However, when I go to BMO and TFC have had 1 shot on target all game, that is not cool. BUT, it doesn't have to be that way. Mediocre level football doesn't have to be boring and all in the midfield! I've seen the proof in the English Conference time after time!

We DO need to demand to be entertained, and that "MLS is a mediocre league" is NOT a good excuse for bad football and bad entertainment!

Beach_Red
09-01-2011, 10:20 AM
Again with the false dilemma. You don't need to walk away from the team in order to receive better than mediocrity (or in our case, worse than mediocrity). But that's the problem with TFC fans. Mo Johnson leaving as late as he did falls on our shoulders just as much as it does on Tom A. We only stepped up and made ourselves heard once the team had completely fallen into a pit of dispair. It's like we believe closing the barn doors after the horses have escaped is a sound strategy. And even then, people almost had to be strong-armed to do so.

The truth is that despite the fact that this team has still underperformed, nobody at the organization is feeling any heat or pressure. And that is never a good thing. Complacency is the enemy of progress.


I would agree that the organization was able to ride the wave of happiness that simply having a team gave them, but I don't think you can fault the supporters for not criticizing them quickly enough for not setting up a proper organization. It wasn't just that they left an unqualified guy on the job too long, it was all the other things - the academy, the scouting, the proper contract negotiating, the grass - everything a proper organization should be that most people felt 'must' have been being built. Everything the consultant they hired told them to do (who would have imagined that they needed to pay someone to come in and tell them that?). After all, the company kept getting named, "best sports corporation," year after year.

Maybe we didn't look deeply enough into the organization soon enough.

So, now we're looking forward. 10 games scheduled in September and October - 6 league and 4 CONCACAF. What results would be considered "success?"

v00d00daddy
09-01-2011, 10:24 AM
Again with this topic? Lol

Why can't people be content with knowing that we don't know what the future holds for this club?

If you're certain it's doomed for ever and ever then I think there is nothing wrong with people suggesting those who see no hope leave. Cause if you don't see hope then all you're trying to do is rain on somebody else's parade.

If you do have hope (no matter how small an amount) then hold on to it and wait to see what happens.

There has been about as much change at this club as I've ever seen in one season in any sport. The overhaul was huge.

Surely we can wait to see what is going to happen.

If you can't...that's cool too. It's not worth stressing yourself out over it. Move on.


And this wasnt directed at anyone in particular. Just a general statement. :)

rocker
09-01-2011, 10:25 AM
However, when I go to BMO and TFC have had 1 shot on target all game, that is not cool. BUT, it doesn't have to be that way. Mediocre level football doesn't have to be boring and all in the midfield! I've seen the proof in the English Conference time after time!

We DO need to demand to be entertained, and that "MLS is a mediocre league" is NOT a good excuse for bad football and bad entertainment!

Actually I find TFC more entertaining this year than under Preki.

Preki definitely played a style like you describe above (1 shot on target). But this year at BMO most games have had a decent number of chances on goal. Our problem before Koevermans was not getting chances but scoring. Also, most games at BMO this year have been very close and fairly entertaining.

The road is a different story...

T-boy
09-01-2011, 10:37 AM
Actually I find TFC more entertaining this year than under Preki.

Preki definitely played a style like you describe above (1 shot on target). But this year at BMO most games have had a decent number of chances on goal. Our problem before Koevermans was not getting chances but scoring. Also, most games at BMO this year have been very close and fairly entertaining.

The road is a different story...

I was talking about the last two seasons actually. I still can only count on one hand every game all the goal scoring opportunities that TFC have. And I don't include things like Borman crossing the ball into nobody in the box, or overhitting it over to the other touchline!

Canary10
09-01-2011, 10:42 AM
Talking about a mediocre league is kind of interesting.

To me, a mediocre league does NOT have to mean bad football or bad entertainment.

When I'm back in England I watch Conference football, as that is where my local team play. When I go see them, the games are nearly always very entertaining...lots of goal scoring opportunities etc. Rarely do I see games controlled in the middle of the pitch where its boring (like I nearly always do at BMO).

And I think we would ALL agree that English Conference football is nothing more than mediocre in "class" at best.

However, when I go to BMO and TFC have had 1 shot on target all game, that is not cool. BUT, it doesn't have to be that way. Mediocre level football doesn't have to be boring and all in the midfield! I've seen the proof in the English Conference time after time!

We DO need to demand to be entertained, and that "MLS is a mediocre league" is NOT a good excuse for bad football and bad entertainment!

The entire MLS (with the possible exception of Dallas) is like this, it's not just TFC. I've been watching a lot of the "top" teams play whenever they're on television, and they really aren't any different than TFC, other than they tend not to make those big mistakes that cause goals. Seattle for example plays in the midfield, doesn't really know what it's doing going forward, and is slow in the attack. Winter is going against the grain of the league imo. Hope it works...

Roogsy
09-01-2011, 10:43 AM
Again with this topic? Lol

Why can't people be content with knowing that we don't know what the future holds for this club?

No, no, you're right. Those of us disappointed in this team have no place here. It's all yours bro.

rocker
09-01-2011, 10:44 AM
I was talking about the last two seasons actually. I still can only count on one hand every game all the goal scoring opportunities that TFC have. And I don't include things like Borman crossing the ball into nobody in the box, or overhitting it over to the other touchline!

I'm only talking about this season, since last season doesn't matter anymore and Winter isn't Preki ;)

This season, I can remember Santos NOT PASSING to an open Stevanovic that should have been a sure goal. I can remember a ref calling back a goal by Plata that was not offside. I can remember Gordon missing a free header in front of the net.

We've had lots of chances to score goals but flubbed them. If we had Dichio in those situations, he woulda potted them :)

Anyways, I disagree with your contention that MLS is bad entertainment. Even when TFC plays like shit I'm entertained by the opposition ;) I also think that Seattle, Dallas, LA, Portland, Vancouver, Houston, RSL and New York are entertaining teams to watch. So if you're going to reference lower division English soccer as more entertaining, you need to perhaps watch games by the rest of the league. TFC is not really representative -- we've been probably the worst team ever to start in MLS (first four season).

T-boy
09-01-2011, 10:44 AM
The entire MLS (with the possible exception of Dallas) is like this, it's not just TFC. I've been watching a lot of the "top" teams play whenever they're on television, and they really aren't any different than TFC, other than they tend not to make those big mistakes that cause goals. Seattle for example plays in the midfield, doesn't really know what it's doing going forward, and is slow in the attack. Winter is going against the grain of the league imo. Hope it works...

No wonder soccer is not popular in North America! :facepalm:

Heathen
09-01-2011, 11:28 AM
The entire MLS (with the possible exception of Dallas) is like this, it's not just TFC. I've been watching a lot of the "top" teams play whenever they're on television, and they really aren't any different than TFC, other than they tend not to make those big mistakes that cause goals. Seattle for example plays in the midfield, doesn't really know what it's doing going forward, and is slow in the attack. Winter is going against the grain of the league imo. Hope it works...

Yes Seattle doesn't know what it's doing going forward that's why they scored 6 goals the other week.

brad
09-01-2011, 11:42 AM
I've stayed out of this thread intentionally but it's posts like this that disappoint me and is the reason why I think I have less and less in commong with other TFC "fans". This attitude right here is the very definition of accepting mediocrity. It's like the choices that have been laid before us are either to cheer for a big club overseas or cheer for a shit club at our doorstep. That's it. Like somehow there isn't a third choice, but we're just too weak to demand it.

Really though - what choices you actually have?

As an individual the only real choice is buy tickets or don't.

As a group - there more power and the option to protest or excert other types of pressure (note - I'm not for a protest now), but that needs specific actions to target. Protesting "We suck" would be silly.

Redcoe15
09-01-2011, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by v00d00daddy http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=1372432#post1372432)
Why can't people be content with knowing that we don't know what the future holds for this club?

Content with not knowing the future of the club?

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/15/128921318576318716.jpg

jloome
09-01-2011, 12:35 PM
I've stayed out of this thread intentionally but it's posts like this that disappoint me and is the reason why I think I have less and less in commong with other TFC "fans". This attitude right here is the very definition of accepting mediocrity.


Roogsy, to most of us being a fan isn't a competition. How can you accept a "mediocre" standard when there is no "higher' standard or "lower" standard of fandom?

I know you're talking about the team, but that's kind of my point. You're arguing at cross purposes: he's talking about the game day fan atmosphere; you're talking about a winning team.

Most people -- in life as well as at BMO -- want the community, not the win. They know you can have both, but they cherish the former, not the latter. They will fight for the former harder than the latter.

They LIKE the latter if it comes, but it's not the defining measurement of anything, really.

Same with me. Winter's team could continue to suck for the next five years, and I"ll still be here posting (albeit less often), because it's community that matters to me in this case, not whether they beat some team from fucking Columbus Ohio last weekend.

That's not a "lower" standard. That's simply you transferring your own hopes and expectations, based around team success, onto a lot of other people who simply don't share them.

It's apples and oranges, an argument of crossed purposes.

jloome
09-01-2011, 12:45 PM
The entire MLS (with the possible exception of Dallas) is like this, it's not just TFC. I've been watching a lot of the "top" teams play whenever they're on television, and they really aren't any different than TFC, other than they tend not to make those big mistakes that cause goals. Seattle for example plays in the midfield, doesn't really know what it's doing going forward, and is slow in the attack. Winter is going against the grain of the league imo. Hope it works...

I had a friend a few years ago who drove me nuts because I couldn't beat him at tennis, even though I was kind of a prodigy as a kid. I could hang in as a 15-year-old with NCAA guys, but here was this neighbourhood dinker (tennis slang for a guy who doesn't really know a proper stroke) who, no matter what I threw at him, was so fast and athletic, he'd somehow get it back.

And he'd keep doing this until I made a mistake on the point. I couldn't "Play down" to his level.

MLS is the "dinker" of world football. Its athletes are probably, athletically, the best in the world. Its pedigree is among the shortest and least-educated (in football) in the world.

MLS games are fun to watch, but often not good football, because it's all about one-on-one challenges in crowds. The team that actually wins is the one disciplined enough to maintain shape (to allow passing lanes) but also "dinker" enough to pressure constantly, run constantly, and generally just outwork the other team.

MLS is easy to explain:

1) Its athletes are top-level NCAA athletes. They are fast, strong and agile.

2) They have little soccer pedigree. So instead, their game reflects their physical approach: fast, strong and agile.

3) BUT fast, strong and agile aren't the only traits you need for good football. You need intelligence, game sense, close-quarters technique. These are sadly lacking.

4) Consequently, the game reflects the players, not what the sport looks like elsewhere. It's fast and pressure is constant, because everyone man-marks and doesn't read what's going on off the ball. But it's also impossible to overcome simply by playing euro style football, because usually that team (and the top teams like Man Utd. prove this) isn't working hard enough.

It's only when they play United or a Barcelona that the actual gap in technique is obvious, becuase the top players at those teams not only have the skill, they have an American work ethic as well.

As a result, American soccer will never be the top league, it will never be the pinnacle of the game, unless it adapts its furious athletic style to the more skilled traditions of the top European clubs.

EDIT: Incidentally, I believe this is why they've accepted Klinsmann's direction at a national team level. They saw the long-term potential of what he was introducing at TFC, and it's absolutely not, in either sense, about short-term results.

Canary10
09-01-2011, 12:55 PM
MLS is easy to explain:

1) Its athletes are top-level NCAA athletes. They are fast, strong and agile.

2) They have little soccer pedigree. So instead, their game reflects their physical approach: fast, strong and agile.

3) BUT fast, strong and agile aren't the only traits you need for good football. You need intelligence, game sense, close-quarters technique. These are sadly lacking.

4) Consequently, the game reflects the players, not what the sport looks like elsewhere. It's fast and pressure is constant, because everyone man-marks and doesn't read what's going on off the ball. But it's also impossible to overcome simply by playing euro style football, because usually that team (and the top teams like Man Utd. prove this) isn't working hard enough.

It's only when they play United or a Barcelona that the actual gap in technique is obvious, becuase the top players at those teams not only have the skill, they have an American work ethic as well.

As a result, American soccer will never be the top league, it will never be the pinnacle of the game, unless it adapts its furious athletic style to the more skilled traditions of the top European clubs.

EDIT: Incidentally, I believe this is why they've accepted Klinsmann's direction at a national team level. They saw the long-term potential of what he was introducing at TFC, and it's absolutely not, in either sense, about short-term results.

I agree that the players themselves are fast, but the game is so incredibly slow compared to Europe. The European games are substantially faster, becasue the ball movement is way faster. I had the misfortune once of watching an MLS game on TV back to back with an EPL game and the speed difference blew me away. Have you ever noticed how big an MLS pitch looks compared to an EPL pitch? They're actually the same size, but EPL players move it around so fast it leaves the impression they're smaller.

I don't agree that the pressure isn't constant in Europe. The big difference is that players are very skilled at evading pressure, and they move the ball before anyone even gets to them.

Also don't agree that a skilled game won't 90% of the time beat a pure athletic game. The United States has regressed in international football over the past five years or so precisely because their athleticsm only goes so far.

Canary10
09-01-2011, 12:57 PM
Yes Seattle doesn't know what it's doing going forward that's why they scored 6 goals the other week.

Yes. It doesn't know what it's doing. Doesn't mean it can't score. My team can score 6 goals in a game and trust me, we don't know what we're doing going forward. If we did we'd be scary.

Beach_Red
09-01-2011, 12:58 PM
^ Yes, and for both the USMT and TFC it's going to be about getting the players. I like your description of American soccer as "dinker." It seems that soccer in the US is still mostly suburban and organized, it's not a playground sport. Maybe this is changing, I don't know.

Football and basketball were able to increase popularity o where they can compete with baseball, maybe soccer can move up, too.

v00d00daddy
09-01-2011, 01:03 PM
Content with not knowing the future of the club?

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/15/128921318576318716.jpg

Are you implying that you know how this team will do next year?

Cause if you are than post it and we can revisit it then

jloome
09-01-2011, 01:07 PM
Also don't agree that a skilled game won't 90% of the time beat a pure athletic game. The United States has regressed in international football over the past five years or so precisely because their athleticsm only goes so far.


Except, results from the U.S. national team and MLS clubs against Euro clubs don't support your contention. The U.S. team hasn't regressed, quite the contrary. They've gone up consistently under the old ranking system. It's only in the last year that they've gone down, because they've stepped up the quality of their competition and, as I said, a dinker won't beat a guy with skill who works as hard as a dinker.

You're basically saying the same thing I am but trying to argue the relative merits of its strength in competition , a debate that seems pointless to me , as results speak for themselves.

AS for not agreeing on how pressure plays out in Europe, you're arguing with a fact. MLS teams almost exclusively play man to man; many, many European teams favour a half-field zone. It is common for MLS teams to pressure full-field for a whole game. It's exceedingly uncommon for a European team at the top level to do that unless already down a goal, because they'll get picked apart. The very nature of the difference in technique, which you've already conceded exists, demands that the style of defence differ.

v00d00daddy
09-01-2011, 01:09 PM
No, no, you're right. Those of us disappointed in this team have no place here. It's all yours bro.

Why do you have to go and be a dick about things?

I never once said you can't be disappointed.

It's just tiresome to see this come up in every conversation and end up at the very same spot every time.

Nothing is mine but my opinion...which Ive made very clear on several occasions.

Just like you have.

There's no reason to hash it out over and over and over.

You talk about how you won't sit idly by and be content with mediocrity. Fine...do something about it. Do something to change what you see as mediocre...instead of trying to convince people who don't believe it is.

But if you insist on being a dick let me point out that you had been very quiet around these parts when the team had it's recent bit of semi decent form.

Now that they lost and then shit the bed in the last minutes of a game you and your take on things are back.

What a coincidence.

Lol

jloome
09-01-2011, 01:15 PM
Why do you have to go and be a dick about things?



It's an easy way to score points off the person you're debating with and, as is the purpose here, to win the sentimental support of other people watching or reading the debate. If you can't debate the man's point but you still insist on "winning," you try to attack his character, usually as obliquely as possible so that it doesn't look like an attack but instead like you're defending yourself.

It only works on the terminally dim, but there are a lot of terminally dim people out there.

It has no real debate value, it's just subtle manipulation of the people on the sidelines, a common trait among people who define their lives by competition and self-enrichment.

Chevy
09-01-2011, 01:17 PM
^^ Pwned. x2.

:)

Canary10
09-01-2011, 01:18 PM
AS for not agreeing on how pressure plays out in Europe, you're arguing with a fact. MLS teams almost exclusively play man to man; many, many European teams favour a half-field zone. It is common for MLS teams to pressure full-field for a whole game. It's exceedingly uncommon for a European team at the top level to do that unless already down a goal, because they'll get picked apart. The very nature of the difference in technique, which you've already conceded exists, demands that the style of defence differ.

United States made it to the quarter-finals in 2002. 2006 knocked out in the first round. And in 2010 the first knock-out stage. That's not progress. FIFA rankings don't mean a hell of a lot.

To your point above, you've never watched Barcelona play then. No team in the world pressures as much as them. Top MLS teams couldn't play in any of the top European leagues and be successful. They don't often beat the C teams of those clubs when they play friendlies in the summer. I would take last year's Blackpool, a team that went down to relegation, to take the MLS hands down if they were in it.

T-boy
09-01-2011, 01:20 PM
Ok, here's an idea.

What some of you are complaining about is the fact that we aren't satisfied with TFC or their direction, but we can't do anything about it. Correct? In essence, we have no say in the way our football club is run.

I've seen this before in Europe. The solution is to have a "fan" (usually a higher up nominated person from a supporters group) sit on the board of directors at the football club. This person is a non voter, but is the liaison between the club as a business and the fan base. So, we (as supporters) can get information from the board via the nominated person, and we can then offer feedback through our elected board member.

Has anybody ever suggested that this can happen at TFC? I've seen it work several times in England where the fans aren't happy. This could probably be a success here too given the chance. And then at least we (the disillusioned fan) can direct our ideas etc towards the football club officially through our fan board member.

Anybody else think that this could be away forward?

jloome
09-01-2011, 01:22 PM
United States made it to the quarter-finals in 2002. 2006 knocked out in the first round. And in 2010 the first knock-out stage. That's not progress. FIFA rankings don't mean a hell of a lot.

To your point above, you've never watched Barcelona play then. No team in the world pressures as much as them. Top MLS teams couldn't play in any of the top European leagues and be successful. They don't often beat the C teams of those clubs when they play friendlies in the summer. I would take last year's Blackpool, a team that went down to relegation, to take the MLS hands down if they were in it.

My final point, as I don't see progress in this conversation, you just want to argue.

1) Whether FIFA overall rankings are accurate, it is foolish to dismiss them completely as they are based on results. By your standard, England hasn't been a top club since 1966, and yet they're rarely outside of the top 10 rankings. So, that makes no sense.

2) Barcelona is one team. Again, pointing to the top team and saying "they do it" does not change the reality that most don't.

3) You obviously haven't watched many MLS friendlies versus C teams, as MLS clubs have an overall winning record against European clubs. Again, if you feel like continuing a pointless debate, you can jump on the fact that those were pre-season games, but you'd just be changing the topic from what I actually said.

I don't argue pointlessly, so that's my last on this exchange.

Phil
09-01-2011, 01:23 PM
We meet on issues all the time regarding group to management issues and often times have communication beyond that. I don't think the formal structure is there in regards an actual board, the board runs all the sports franchises and we would not be privy to that.

T-boy
09-01-2011, 01:26 PM
We meet on issues all the time regarding group to management issues and often times have communication beyond that. I don't think the formal structure is there in regards an actual board, the board runs all the sports franchises and we would not be privy to that.

...but we COULD and SHOULD be.

Beach_Red
09-01-2011, 01:27 PM
I've seen this before in Europe. The solution is...



This is kind of where the trouble started back in year one - looking at a North American expansion team (and a very low priority for its owners) as if it was a 'real' team. Our big mistake was to assume that a proper infrastructure was being built behind the scenes. It wasn't.

But it is now. But it's very early stages. So, right now there's nothing we can do but wait and see how this plan plays out and hope it's successful.

Phil
09-01-2011, 01:29 PM
...but we COULD and SHOULD be.

No, they wont talk Leafs, Raptors and money stuff, not with fans there of any of those teams. The company is pretty private on that front.

However, if they restructured and isoloated TFC under a president and offered something like what you outlined then I could see making a strong case for involvement.

Canary10
09-01-2011, 01:33 PM
I suggest as a starting point having a communications person within RPB and really start working the media to use RPB as a source of post-game commentary, views on that state of the team, etc. Would need a process to know what the RPB as a whole are thinking and accurately represent those though. Would require some sort of structure. Supporters clubs are often quoted in UK articles.

Roogsy
09-01-2011, 01:34 PM
But if you insist on being a dick let me point out that you had been very quiet around these parts when the team had it's recent bit of semi decent form.

Now that they lost and then shit the bed in the last minutes of a game you and your take on things are back.

What a coincidence.

Lol

Or it could coincide with an RPB membership discussion to reduce the friction on this board and I felt the way to do it was to simply not engage some people on this board. Dunno...maybe it was that. Not the "semi-decent" ( :facepalm: ) form of the team lately, which in case you had bothered to ask, hasn't changed my mind about the team, its management or its direction.

And here I thought instead of being down on the team, by letting people celebrate lame wins over semi-professional teams was a good way to get past things. Instead, you decided to gloat over wins that were so unimpressive it barely made people feel better about this team and were more thankful that we didn't completely shit the bed. What confidence!

How I regret posting in this thread. Waiting 5 days and 6 pages to make my first post is running back to bash the team after a tie??? When could I have posted and not been accused of this shit? After a loss? Nope, same accusation. After a win? Nope, I am raining on people's parades. Fuck me. There just isn't a good time to post one's thoughts about this failure of a club. Like I said, it's simply not welcome by your kind. So please, continue fellating-yourselves about how great fans you are about all the hope you have. I won't post in this thread again.

T-boy
09-01-2011, 01:48 PM
I suggest as a starting point having a communications person within RPB and really start working the media to use RPB as a source of post-game commentary, views on that state of the team, etc. Would need a process to know what the RPB as a whole are thinking and accurately represent those though. Would require some sort of structure. Supporters clubs are often quoted in UK articles.

The way they do it in Europe is by having a supporters club where all the members are paid members, and they elect a board to represent that "club" to the football team (company). I was a member of Oxford United supporters club for years before moving to Canada, went to their official meetings, and then often an Oxford United board representative would attend the meetings, and take back any info to the company.

I'm doubting whether people would want a paid membership to a supporters club here tho. I think the different supporters groups (PRB, U sector, North End) are all too heavily involved in themselves (no offense to those people who post here!) to want to join together to form a paid membership supporters club.

One official Supporters Club would certainly get us (supporters) more power and would make MLSE stop and look up. The different supporters groups currently don't have the power and weight of a European style Supporters Club.

jloome
09-01-2011, 01:54 PM
^^ Pwned. x2.

:)

As you can see from the "final" post above, the trend of self-victimization in the wake of a fairly-made point, with the intent on changing the focus away from the issues being discussed, is once again evident.

As was the case in the first example, the subject does not address the point at hand, which was his own method of furthering a larger debate. With no sense of support structure being presented by other debaters/onlookers, the subject no longer sees the debate as benefiting the security of his own position, and instead walks away from it.

Now, in communal, human terms, the proper thing to do was probably say "hey, yeah, that was kind of dicky, the way I said that. My bad. But I'm frustrated because I relate our support to the team's failures as a team."

However, if you don't rely on community for support, but instead get your sense of personal security from dominance (through leadership/proselytizing role or via dominance of "egalitarian" factors like commerce), your brain won't let you know that. It will tell you that admitting any fault, or weakness, is a sign of insecurity to that dominant position, and that the subject should just walk away.

And as for the issue of referring to behaviour as "the subject," I'll stop referring to people as if they were test monkeys when they stop behaving like we haven't evolved from them.

Canary10
09-01-2011, 01:58 PM
The way they do it in Europe is by having a supporters club where all the members are paid members, and they elect a board to represent that "club" to the football team (company). I was a member of Oxford United supporters club for years before moving to Canada, went to their official meetings, and then often an Oxford United board representative would attend the meetings, and take back any info to the company.

I'm doubting whether people would want a paid membership to a supporters club here tho. I think the different supporters groups (PRB, U sector, North End) are all too heavily involved in themselves (no offense to those people who post here!) to want to join together to form a paid membership supporters club.

One official Supporters Club would certainly get us (supporters) more power and would make MLSE stop and look up. The different supporters groups currently don't have the power and weight of a European style Supporters Club.

Huge diversity of opinion here too, would be really hard to bring a consistent message to TFC. It's worth thinking about though. I don't know the supporters clubs well, I'm just a die-hard fan in the 121 section....

Heathen
09-01-2011, 02:24 PM
Yes. It doesn't know what it's doing. Doesn't mean it can't score. My team can score 6 goals in a game and trust me, we don't know what we're doing going forward. If we did we'd be scary.

I honestly don't know what to say to you if you really believe the top scorers in the league don't know what they're doing going forward

Canary10
09-01-2011, 02:56 PM
I honestly don't know what to say to you if you really believe the top scorers in the league don't know what they're doing going forward

I'm talking about the teams as a whole. They're sooooo slooooowwwww. It's painful to watch, even the top MLS teams. They rely mostly on individual players beating defenders. Passing is terrible, no incisive balls. It looks like playing football in swamp.

BFin
09-01-2011, 03:18 PM
jloome, you're killing me today.

Heathen
09-01-2011, 03:20 PM
I'm talking about the teams as a whole. They're sooooo slooooowwwww. It's painful to watch, even the top MLS teams. They rely mostly on individual players beating defenders. Passing is terrible, no incisive balls. It looks like playing football in swamp.

Slow compared to what? if you're comparing to top Euro leagues then don't bother, it's not a valid or fair comparison. Anyway I don't agree with you as a blanket description of all teams, if anything I think MLS players often are too direct and play at too quick a pace.

Pookie
09-01-2011, 03:30 PM
The way they do it in Europe is by having a supporters club where all the members are paid members, and they elect a board to represent that "club" to the football team (company). I was a member of Oxford United supporters club for years before moving to Canada, went to their official meetings, and then often an Oxford United board representative would attend the meetings, and take back any info to the company.

I'm doubting whether people would want a paid membership to a supporters club here tho. I think the different supporters groups (PRB, U sector, North End) are all too heavily involved in themselves (no offense to those people who post here!) to want to join together to form a paid membership supporters club.

One official Supporters Club would certainly get us (supporters) more power and would make MLSE stop and look up. The different supporters groups currently don't have the power and weight of a European style Supporters Club.

It would actually require what is known as a "Supporters Trust" and usually involves an equity position in the club.

It would require organization well beyond a few members of our exec (or U-Sector or whomever) sitting down to talk with Reps from the club. You'd need to be incorporated and have an extremely well supported infrastructure to manage finances, marketing, messaging, etc.

While it isn't impossible and I say this with all due respect to the volunteers that run the RPBs and other SGs, we are no where near organized enough to step up to that level.

Of course, then you'd have to also tackle the philosophical issue of a Supporters Trust profiting from an investment in the commercial endeavours of the FO. In essence, we'd become a part of MLSE and all this talk about how their profits are king or being only about the almighty $$$ would become part of our culture as well.

Supporters efforts would be fueled by the profitability of the team. If the team becomes or remains profitable, the Trust could continue. If it doesn't, we fold or at least find our finances limiting our efforts. And since it is our money that is invested, clearly, driving a profit becomes more of a factor than it is now for the average RPB. In that way, you'd need an extremely different mindset to make it functional.

Assuming of course, that there are equity shares available.

Canary10
09-01-2011, 03:44 PM
Slow compared to what? if you're comparing to top Euro leagues then don't bother, it's not a valid or fair comparison. Anyway I don't agree with you as a blanket description of all teams, if anything I think MLS players often are too direct and play at too quick a pace.

Yeah, slow in comparison to European leagues, including the British Championship, which I think is a fair comparison. My main point really is that there is not much separating Toronto from the top teams.

brad
09-01-2011, 04:04 PM
...but we COULD and SHOULD be.

No way a major corporation like MLSE is going let supporters in on the board. You need to think of this like a billion dollar corporation and not like a sports team - because that's what the structure is.

69Chevy396
09-01-2011, 04:12 PM
I think it would be a great idea for mlse brass to spend a week with the Firms in Rome or Milan, or in Rio, where these rabid supporters are part owners of the club. Losing in some of those places does have consequences.


By the way. I never felt anybody here was asking me to leave. Like you, I was a true supporter of this team, and backed it up with cash. In time, and not from anything that I did or caused, this support melted away. I really don't care what they do next season until i get my money's worth for this one. Like concerning yourself about the 4th year of a warranty on a leased car you return after only 3 years.

Fort York Redcoat
09-01-2011, 04:19 PM
I know a guy who collects rare darts. Those would come in handy during one of the many 0-3 games at BMO.:scarf:


No they wouldn't. Unless one wanted to know where scum sits.

What are you talking about a TFC firm for.

Boris
09-01-2011, 04:28 PM
I think it would be a great idea for mlse brass to spend a week with the Firms in Rome or Milan, or in Rio, where these rabid supporters are part owners of the club. I believe they operate some teams like a boy scout unit sporting real guns, knives and other pleasantries. Losing in some of those places does have consequences. That would be interesting. One of you RPBs becoming a member of the TFC FIRM: just remember, some of the team buses have bullet proof windows and hired guns on board.
I know a guy who collects rare darts. Those would come in handy during one of the many 0-3 games at BMO.:scarf:

By the way. I never felt anybody here was asking me to leave. Like you, I was a true supporter of this team, and backed it up with cash. In time, and not from anything that I did or caused, this support melted away. I really don't care what they do next season until i get my money's worth for this one. Like concerning yourself about the 4th year of a warranty on a leased car you return after only 3 years.


so the first half of your post was supporting violence, the second is you giving up on the team.....

and youre posting on this forum because?

69Chevy396
09-01-2011, 04:35 PM
Sorry. But do you guys have any knowledge of the Firms which exist in many European and South American countries, who own part of the professional clubs, and who sport uncanny violent behaviour. If you read my post you would realize I was ridiculing the earlier posts which suggested having a supporter attend an mlse board meeting. I think you guys are great, but way too serious. Anybody who accuses me of suggesting violence at BMO needs to understand this, and I will only say this once. That is utter bullshit. So next time, if there is one, I will remember to bracket the word sarcasm. I thought it was clear, but I guess it wasn't. Not to worry, I won't be bugging you guys much longer, this is your place to celebrate and voice your support of your team. Not mine. I am just a guy who bought into this whole idea of soccer in Toronto, and am still waiting for it to happen (sarcasm)

jloome
09-01-2011, 05:06 PM
jloome, you're killing me today.

As you might be able to tell, my life is a blend of joyous enlightenment and mind-numbing frustration.

Yin yang, I guess. Bloody dichotomous species.

Cashcleaner
09-01-2011, 06:40 PM
Sorry. But do you guys have any knowledge of the Firms which exist in many European and South American countries, who own part of the professional clubs, and who sport uncanny violent behaviour. If you read my post you would realize I was ridiculing the earlier posts which suggested having a supporter attend an mlse board meeting. I think you guys are great, but way too serious. Anybody who accuses me of suggesting violence at BMO needs to understand this, and I will only say this once. That is utter bullshit. So next time, if there is one, I will remember to bracket the word sarcasm. I thought it was clear, but I guess it wasn't. Not to worry, I won't be bugging you guys much longer, this is your place to celebrate and voice your support of your team. Not mine. I am just a guy who bought into this whole idea of soccer in Toronto, and am still waiting for it to happen (sarcasm)

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/000/346/969638-cool_story__bro_super.jpg?1244744838

69Chevy396
09-01-2011, 08:58 PM
http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/000/346/969638-cool_story__bro_super.jpg?1244744838
Once again, I apologize. Have come here like many of you to discuss soccer and TFC. The analogy I draw to my feelings of frustration with this club would be winning a lottery but discovering you have to sleep with a monkey to claim your prize. The good and bad go together, so discussions of a rotten team should encompass both sides of the spectrum or they are meaningless. Anyhow, info on the South American firms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torcida
Two more games to go, then gone.

123 elite
09-01-2011, 09:06 PM
No way a major corporation like MLSE is going let supporters in on the board. You need to think of this like a billion dollar corporation and not like a sports team - because that's what the structure is.

REading this thread is enough reason not to let any supporter near a soccer boardroom. Based on this site and the average game day most TFC fans want instant success, expensive signings, cheap tickets, special favours for singing through the game, refunds for games instead of replays, cheap beer, great food thats virtually free, Not having CCL tickets in Season ticket package, having CCL tickets in a season ticket package but without paying extra, being allowed to see Real Madrid for $20, having Danny Dichio knighted, having dero in stocks in Dundas square, being allowed to throw plastic cups at corner kick takers, having them jailed if they throw them back, having them hung if they celebrate scoring from the corner, being allowed to shout homophobic abuse at the Dallas goalkeeper next to 10 year old kids, having games at 3pm every second saturday, having a roof, having less games when its cold, playing games when the sun goes behind the west stand (east stand fans only) Having flags the size of the south end brought in 5 minutes before the game, being allowed to stand on a metal stand in an electrical storm, rearranging the GO schedule to allow for the shortest stay possible in Toronto, more bar staff at Shoeless Joes, access to locker room chat....etc etc.

I'd give the team a year with supporters in he boardroom.:o

brad
09-01-2011, 09:28 PM
REading this thread is enough reason not to let any supporter near a soccer boardroom. Based on this site and the average game day most TFC fans want instant success, expensive signings, cheap tickets, special favours for singing through the game, refunds for games instead of replays, cheap beer, great food thats virtually free, Not having CCL tickets in Season ticket package, having CCL tickets in a season ticket package but without paying extra, being allowed to see Real Madrid for $20, having Danny Dichio knighted, having dero in stocks in Dundas square, being allowed to throw plastic cups at corner kick takers, having them jailed if they throw them back, having them hung if they celebrate scoring from the corner, being allowed to shout homophobic abuse at the Dallas goalkeeper next to 10 year old kids, having games at 3pm every second saturday, having a roof, having less games when its cold, playing games when the sun goes behind the west stand (east stand fans only) Having flags the size of the south end brought in 5 minutes before the game, being allowed to stand on a metal stand in an electrical storm, rearranging the GO schedule to allow for the shortest stay possible in Toronto, more bar staff at Shoeless Joes, access to locker room chat....etc etc.

I'd give the team a year with supporters in he boardroom.:o

Seriously - one of the funniest things I think I've read on this board...Hat's off to you sir.

Derko
09-02-2011, 05:38 AM
REading this thread is enough reason not to let any supporter near a soccer boardroom. Based on this site and the average game day most TFC fans want instant success, expensive signings, cheap tickets, special favours for singing through the game, refunds for games instead of replays, cheap beer, great food thats virtually free, Not having CCL tickets in Season ticket package, having CCL tickets in a season ticket package but without paying extra, being allowed to see Real Madrid for $20, having Danny Dichio knighted, having dero in stocks in Dundas square, being allowed to throw plastic cups at corner kick takers, having them jailed if they throw them back, having them hung if they celebrate scoring from the corner, being allowed to shout homophobic abuse at the Dallas goalkeeper next to 10 year old kids, having games at 3pm every second saturday, having a roof, having less games when its cold, playing games when the sun goes behind the west stand (east stand fans only) Having flags the size of the south end brought in 5 minutes before the game, being allowed to stand on a metal stand in an electrical storm, rearranging the GO schedule to allow for the shortest stay possible in Toronto, more bar staff at Shoeless Joes, access to locker room chat....etc etc.

I'd give the team a year with supporters in he boardroom.:o

This is rather funny, good one.

Chevy
09-02-2011, 08:09 AM
^^ BUT....we have those little soccer goals in the urinals. That's a start, right?

Ageroo
09-02-2011, 08:11 AM
^^ BUT....we have those little soccer goals in the urinals. That's a start, right?

I always am a little sketchy when I see the little ball missing in the goal....where did it go? :eek6:

123 elite
09-02-2011, 08:34 AM
^^ BUT....we have those little soccer goals in the urinals. That's a start, right?

thay have to stay. Its often the only goalmouth action we get to see.

Pookie
09-02-2011, 11:08 AM
If the goal is knocked over does that mean someone hit the woodwork?

123elite, that was some funny stuff up above.

cmonyoureds
09-03-2011, 09:32 PM
REading this thread is enough reason not to let any supporter near a soccer boardroom. Based on this site and the average game day most TFC fans want instant success, expensive signings, cheap tickets, special favours for singing through the game, refunds for games instead of replays, cheap beer, great food thats virtually free, Not having CCL tickets in Season ticket package, having CCL tickets in a season ticket package but without paying extra, being allowed to see Real Madrid for $20, having Danny Dichio knighted, having dero in stocks in Dundas square, being allowed to throw plastic cups at corner kick takers, having them jailed if they throw them back, having them hung if they celebrate scoring from the corner, being allowed to shout homophobic abuse at the Dallas goalkeeper next to 10 year old kids, having games at 3pm every second saturday, having a roof, having less games when its cold, playing games when the sun goes behind the west stand (east stand fans only) Having flags the size of the south end brought in 5 minutes before the game, being allowed to stand on a metal stand in an electrical storm, rearranging the GO schedule to allow for the shortest stay possible in Toronto, more bar staff at Shoeless Joes, access to locker room chat....etc etc.

I'd give the team a year with supporters in he boardroom.:o

if i could design a little smiley giving the long, slow, welcome to the wiserhood clap, you sir would recieve it.

post of the year.