TFC 0 - FC Dallas 1: Post Match Threadgasm

[__wowza]

It's time to play the music
It's time to light the lights
t's time to meet the Muppets on the Muppet Show tonight.

It's time to put on makeup
It's time to dress up right
It's time to raise the curtain on the Muppet Show tonight.

Why do we always come here
I guess we'll never know
It's like a kind of torture
To have to watch the show

And now let's get things started
Why don't you get things started
It's time to get things started
On the most sensational inspirational celebrational Muppetational
This is what we call the Muppet Show!

[__wowza]

what can ya say?

crosses into a box full of marked attackers.
dallas controlled the pace after a weak goal.
ecks red carded because he couldnt keep his head.

[T-boy]

With Eckersley getting a yellow, and then two yellows overall for a suspension, will he miss one game for the yellow card accumulation, or two games with the red also????? Anybody know?

[Shakes McQueen]

A shame, after they were given a second lease on life with the abandonment.

I didn't see the game, so I'll leave it to what I'm guessing were the scant few who saw it, to commentate on the performance.

- Scott

[Derko]

Poor effort after an unmarked goal, Plata is becoming very selfish, trying to do it all by himself, we are in for a tough ride now.

[brad]

Going to be some tired players against SJ his weekend.

[rocker]

FC Dallas was clearly the better team in over a game a half. No surprises in this game at all.

[T-boy]

Dallas had TFC tied up in the first half I would say, controlled the play, should have been two goals up with the penalty. Second half TFC got going a little bit, but by the time they got some balls into the Dallas box, they had packed it solid and we had no chance.

Johnson was FAR too isolated on his own up front, couldn't hold the ball up and therefore Dallas kept getting posession back. TFC had one "good" chance through Peri, otherwise Hartman didn't have much to do, the Dallas defense easily had Johnson out of the game.

[Sec222_fan]

Last year we were angry and we let management know; what are we going to do this year? It seems like people don't care as much or aren't as vocal. This team has 4 wins all season - are we waiting for ticket package information or what can we do with a few games left to let TFC management know this isn't good enough. Season VI around the corner and we're at the bottom of the league.

[Shakes McQueen]

Last year we were angry and we let management know; what are we going to do this year? It seems like people don't care as much or aren't as vocal. This team has 4 wins all season - are we waiting for ticket package information or what can we do with a few games left to let TFC management know this isn't good enough. Season VI around the corner and we're at the bottom of the league.

This wasn't a league game.

- Scott

[__wowza]

Last year we were angry and we let management know; what are we going to do this year? It seems like people don't care as much or aren't as vocal. This team has 4 wins all season - are we waiting for ticket package information or what can we do with a few games left to let TFC management know this isn't good enough. Season VI around the corner and we're at the bottom of the league.

yeah, this is worse than last season. i feel that people dont care enough to complain. apathy is far worse than anger. love something or hate something, youre still putting the same amount of effort into it.

[T-boy]

Honestly, I would say that TFC aren't any better than they were this time last season. Yes, we have a new coach with a new style, yes we have completely new squad barring a couple of players, but are TFC playing any better? I would honestly have to say no :( I would actually say that TFC are possibly worse now. I think our best two players of this season (Plata and Eckersley) are not as good as last season's best two players (Nana and De Rosario), and the thing that makes it even worse, is that Plata and Eckersley aren't owned by TFC.

[reggie]

let the rebuild begin again...

[TO DEVILS]

Tis a real pity.

[Eastend]

Last year we were angry and we let management know; what are we going to do this year? It seems like people don't care as much or aren't as vocal. This team has 4 wins all season - are we waiting for ticket package information or what can we do with a few games left to let TFC management know this isn't good enough. Season VI around the corner and we're at the bottom of the league.

This is far worse for MLSE then people being angry and vocalizing it.


This wasn't a league game.

- Scott

So? Still a team that's not performing.

[Yohan]

dire in need of a playmaker and it showed. a little more attempt to play the ball through the middle but tfc attack is still predictable.

still, competitive match vs one of the best in the league. dallas did just enough for the 3 points and they didn't dominate tfc, which i suppose, is progress. still impressed by how good dallas is

[Shakes McQueen]

yeah, this is worse than last season. i feel that people dont care enough to complain.

I think plenty of people care - they just don't know how else to fix it, except to continue along the path we are currently on and hope for the best.

- Scott

[T-boy]

dire in need of a playmaker and it showed. a little more attempt to play the ball through the middle but tfc attack is still predictable.

still, competitive match vs one of the best in the league. dallas did just enough for the 3 points and they didn't dominate tfc, which i suppose, is progress. still impressed by how good dallas is

I got the feeling Dallas beat us at home both times this season without taking their team into 5th gear. It looked likt they could have wound TFC up at any moment if they really wanted to stretch it. Dallas are a good, well organised team.

[Carefree]

I think plenty of people care - they just don't know how else to fix it, except to continue along the path we are currently on and hope for the best.

- Scott
I can only speak for myself, but I certainly don't care as much as I used to. Last night I didn't even hesitate and left the stadium as soon as they announced the delay. I suppose I could have played hookie from work this morning and headed over to BMO, but why bother?

[Yohan]

I got the feeling Dallas beat us at home both times this season without taking their team into 5th gear. It looked likt they could have wound TFC up at any moment if they really wanted to stretch it. Dallas are a good, well organised team.
their 5th gear is this guy named David Ferreira... he's scary to watch

[rocker]

I got the feeling Dallas beat us at home both times this season without taking their team into 5th gear. It looked likt they could have wound TFC up at any moment if they really wanted to stretch it. Dallas are a good, well organised team.

Oh come on, so when TFC loses 1-0 it's because the other team didn't play hard enough? Geez..... people have a way of spinning any result. Sigh.

So did Dallas take it easy on us in the two other games where they beat us only 1-0?

[ManUtd4ever]

Dallas is clearly a stronger side, but I thought they were vulnerable at times throughout the match, and TFC failed to capitalize on the attack on several occasions due to a lack of finish by a few forwards. I thought Plata, Marosevic, and Johnson had golden opportunities to help TFC earn a result today.

TFC will now likely require victories at home against Pumas and Tauro, as well as a draw on the road against either Pumas or Dallas in order to advance. It's going to be a tough road ahead.

[Red Rat]

too bad MLS doesnt have a lower league to be relegated to. Is a rude awakening

[Suds]

It sucked but there were some bright spots.

Stinson is starting to become more comfortable out there. I'm really liking this kid and hope he continues to improve.


Also, can someone please tell Winter to stop putting Broman on the field. That guy is flat out garbage. I could find 50 guys in oldtimer leagues in the GTA that can play better than him. How this guy became a professional footballer is beyond me.

I think I hate Borman almost as much as Carts hates JDG. :D

[rocker]

To add to my earlier point, we cannot draw any grand conclusions about where TFC stands as a squad after losing to FC Dallas 1-0. Dallas is very strong (some people were calling for a blowout by Dallas before the match). If this had been Tauro beating us 1-0, I'd be worried.

What's clear is that Dallas is the best of the group. Now we need to focus on Pumas. Last night Santos Laguna lost, so the Mexican teams are reeling. We need to win at home and tie on the road vs Pumas, then given the beatdown against Tauro and we'll have 10 points.

[mclaren]

We have nothing, NOTHING going forward. We never look like scoring. Plata is the most frustrating player ever to watch.

[tfcleeds]

Anyone have any attendance #s for this match?

[T-boy]

Oh come on, so when TFC loses 1-0 it's because the other team didn't play hard enough? Geez..... people have a way of spinning any result. Sigh.

So did Dallas take it easy on us in the two other games where they beat us only 1-0?

So you really think that Dallas beat TFC at a struggle? Honestly, can you say that?!

It looked to me like Dallas could have upped their tempo if TFC scored against them and probably retaken the lead. Dallas beat TFC at home, on both occassions, without breaking too much of a sweat!

If you think Dallas struggled in that game, then I clearly watched a different game to you!

[Sec222_fan]

Without a playmaker, I think Koverman will be a bust for TFC. Better find creative ways to spend some money in the offseason on a new DP (when JDG is up) & other players (the way LA Galaxy seems to get creative with $$).

[kodiakTFC]

FC Dallas is bizarro world TFC.

1. FC is before their name.
2. Organization is great on the field
3. Organization is awful off the field.

[TO DEVILS]

We have nothing, NOTHING going forward. We never look like scoring. Plata is the most frustrating player ever to watch.

Always trying to dribble through everyone, cutting right when he could go left....he is a sub at best. Based on his qualities, he would be a better fit off the bench than as a starter.

Ecks second yellow is the most lack of professionalism on this team since Dero's cheque signing.

He should buy Rohan Ricketts book on how to be a pro footballer.:D

[Beach_Red]

Dallas is clearly a stronger side, but I thought they were vulnerable at times throughout the match, and TFC failed to capitalize on the attack on several occasions due to a lack of finish by a few forwards. I thought Plata, Marosevic, and Johnson had golden opportunities to help TFC earn a result today.

TFC will now likely require victories at home against Pumas and Tauro, as well as a draw on the road against either Pumas or Dallas in order to advance. It's going to be a tough road ahead.


It definietly feels like TFC are on the verge of breaking through to the next level but just can't quite manage it.

[dantdot]

Without a playmaker, I think Koverman will be a bust for TFC. Better find creative ways to spend some money in the offseason on a new DP (when JDG is up) & other players (the way LA Galaxy seems to get creative with $$).

I agree. I'd like JDG to stay on but we have more pressing concerns, like a total lack of talent on this team. Use his DP spot on a stud attacking mid.

[smtavare]

More excuses...blablabla..next game..next year... give it time...!

Seems like blue and white disease has become red and grey disease!

Lets see how they do the rest of they way in group play.

If they don't make it... I blame winter as all his wanted players were in the system for this CCL Group stage!

That's my opinion...i'm not a troll...i'm not a hater...

It's my opinion...that is all!

[dow117]

It sucked but there were some bright spots.

Stinson is starting to become more comfortable out there. I'm really liking this kid and hope he continues to improve.


Also, can someone please tell Winter to stop putting Broman on the field. That guy is flat out garbage. I could find 50 guys in oldtimer leagues in the GTA that can play better than him. How this guy became a professional footballer is beyond me.

I think I hate Borman almost as much as Carts hates JDG. :D


It was in fact Stinson who caused the Dallas goal by backing off his marker and allowing the cross to happen. Stinson shows flashes but he is not focused the whole game... needs to step it up in this League. Borman was much better than you suggest.

Toronto should not have lost the game as the the stats indicate. The main diffrence is that Dalls always looked dangerous going forward... we did not. Apart from the penalty , Kocic did not have to do much. It was fairly even except the last 15 mins when Toronto had a few chances on hartman. It shows equal teams here apart from 1 team having a greater understanding of each other ( Dallas ) and Toronto who are still not together ( especialy at the back ). The marking on the Dallas goal was house league and the cross should nevber have happened... thanks Matt

[Yagbod]

We miss Danny 2.0 big time. No confidence in the final third.

Didn't like the long ball being played so much.

Moving Frings up from the back line late in the second half lasted about 4 minutes before he was back cleaning up after (edit: henry, not Iro).

It was weird watching footy live at 10 am. And it sucked that I found out about it at 1am last night. I was hoping to wake up at 10am... very tired now.

No idea how accurate this estimate is, but I figure there were about 500 to 750 people there.

Edit: I also thought it was stupid that security would not allow flag waving. The place was empty. Very dumb.

[Yohan]

Iro did not play... Harden did

[T-boy]

Moving Frings up from the back line late in the second half lasted about 4 minutes before he was back cleaning up after Iro.



I know we all like to hate one player at a time, but Iro wasn't on the pitch this game! :p We can't blame him for this game!

[Pookie]

Can we back the crazy truck up a bit?

Dallas, a team that is 3rd in the Western Conference and would be 1st in the East, is in a Group in a tournament with Toronto FC, a team that is 2nd last in the league (thank goodness for Vancouver).

Now, if you were a betting man and handicapping the odds of Dallas emerging 1st in the group, you'd probably put that outcome on "very likely" odds.

So, this Dallas team plays this Toronto team and squeaks out a 1-0 victory.

And the Toronto fans go ape shit because they were expecting to win?

A draw would be been a great result. We didn't get it. The tournament goes on.

[Yagbod]

Iro did not play... Harden did

My mistake, Henry came on, not Iro, and it seemed that Frings had to drop back again to cover for him.

Didn't realize that Henry was so tall...

[Pookie]

Iro did not play... Harden did

Facts matter not when critiquing the whipping boy of the season. Iro probably distracted Harden by moving a towel or something.

[maninb]

Turn out the lights...the party's OVER....No chance we beat the Mexicans....well there's always next year.....You need 10 points MINIMUM to qualify...no way we get 4 points from the Mexicans...

[smtavare]

Facts matter not when critiquing the whipping boy of the season. Iro probably distracted Harden by moving a towel or something.

Bahhahhhhaaaa....this....Nice!

[flatpicker]

I really would like to see Frings put back into a more central position.
I get that we are trying to plug holes in the back, but the team created way more chances in the games where he was controlling the mid.

[dupont]

Just got back from the stadium. The crowd was much more belligerent than usual. I guess everyone was still grumpy and hungover.
The main complaint I have is that we just don't look dangerous at all going forward. Sometimes we would maintain some good possession but as soon as it came up top, some feeble attempt would be made to score.

[Phil]

Turn out the lights...the party's OVER....No chance we beat the Mexicans....well there's always next year.....You need 10 points MINIMUM to qualify...no way we get 4 points from the Mexicans...


Isn't that what everyone said last year, and look at our results against the mexicans.

I'll save my 'no chances' until I see the starting lineup for their squad because from the sounds of what they put up against Dallas it may be Pumas second team.

[Shakes McQueen]

It definietly feels like TFC are on the verge of breaking through to the next level but just can't quite manage it.

It's our defense. Our atrocious defense affects the entire team - too many big mistakes leading to goals. Our attackers don't have the confidence to commit to the attack, because they don't trust our defenders to manage without them - particularly our central midfied.

And frankly, I don't blame them, because they SHOULDN'T trust our central defenders.

Winter clearly doesn't trust them either, or he wouldn't be using Frings, his expensive new DP midfielder, as a starting option back there.

Solve this, and I think any offensive issues resolve themselves. It would also explain why nearly every time we've shown an offensive player the door, they've gone on to have better results elsewhere. Too much time spent with guys worriedly looking backwards.

How Winter handles this major problem, probably in the off-season, is going to weigh heavily on my judgment of him. Ecks is the only keeper we've got in the back four, and even he hasn't been consistently good the past couple of months. Left back is a shambles, and hopefully Cann is good enough to occupy one of our starting CB spots, although even he wasn't looking great in his limited action this year.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

I really would like to see Frings put back into a more central position.
I get that we are trying to plug holes in the back, but the team created way more chances in the games where he was controlling the mid.

I agree! No more Frings on the backline please, unless it's an emergency, or necessitated by a substitution.

Fix the problem back there, Winter. Don't just stuff Torsten Frings into the hole and hope that plugs it.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Pathetic defense has been our major hole since year one. It's the thing we kept calling on Mo to fix every winter - the problem he kept acknowledging, and then failing to rectify.

We've had a revolving door of failures in our back four, and it needs to end if we are every going to make the playoffs. It's the root of our problems. Always has been.

- Scott

[Pookie]

Winter clearly doesn't trust them either, or he wouldn't be using Frings, his expensive new DP midfielder, as a starting option back there.

Solve this, and I think any offensive issues resolve themselves. It would also explain why nearly every time we've shown an offensive player the door, they've gone on to have better results elsewhere. Too much time spent with guys worriedly looking backwards.

Very true.

And by pulling resources back from the mid-field, Frings in this example, you limit the ability to create offense. All props to Stinson for effort. He simply needs work on crossing.

[Dbl_D]

My mistake, Henry came on, not Iro, and it seemed that Frings had to drop back again to cover for him.

Didn't realize that Henry was so tall...

that's what happens when your tired...



It was weird watching footy live at 10 am. And it sucked that I found out about it at 1am last night. I was hoping to wake up at 10am... very tired now.

what are you 90... can't stay up passed 1 and get up b4 10..

im up for 8am slaving for the man after being up as well


btw get a job hippie ;)

edit: just kidding...

[mastermixer]

It sucked but there were some bright spots.

Stinson is starting to become more comfortable out there. I'm really liking this kid and hope he continues to improve.


Also, can someone please tell Winter to stop putting Broman on the field. That guy is flat out garbage. I could find 50 guys in oldtimer leagues in the GTA that can play better than him. How this guy became a professional footballer is beyond me.

I think I hate Borman almost as much as Carts hates JDG. :D

Can we also move Frings back to the midfield please?

[__wowza]

So, this Dallas team plays this Toronto team and squeaks out a 1-0 victory.

And the Toronto fans go ape shit because they were expecting to win?

pooks, its not like the majority of us expected to win, most of us pushed hard that we needed to win. thats where the disappointment comes from, and there's no doubt that 3 points against dallas at home was labeled as essential to our campaign for the following reasons:

- we missed the opportunity to make a move against the fire by subbing off players expected to make an impact this game.
- we were at home.
- we were playing a familiar opponent.
- a lot of our guys were liable to miss the next game due to yellow accumulation.
- we've already gotten into the mindset that winter is sacrificing the rest of a plausible season for a deeper CCL run.
- and we're facing a somewhat stronger side that doens't feel the same.

[Chevy]

Turn out the lights...the party's OVER....No chance we beat the Mexicans....well there's always next year.....You need 10 points MINIMUM to qualify...no way we get 4 points from the Mexicans...

We took 4 pts from Cruz Azul last year. Just sayin'

[Dkolish3]

We took 4 pts from Cruz Azul last year. Just sayin'



nevermind, continue on good sir

[TFC USA]

I have no doubt we will win our remaining games because we're starting to turn the corner and clearly we need to spin a positive out of every one of our billion losses. :rolleyes:

Terrible performance but what are you going to do? This is a horrendous team against an MLS contender.

[Shakes McQueen]

This is a horrendous team against an MLS contender.

This is a team that's getting better, versus a team that's already good.

- Scott

[Dbl_D]

pooks, its not like the majority of us expected to win, most of us pushed hard that we needed to win. thats where the disappointment comes from, and there's no doubt that 3 points against dallas at home was labeled as essential to our campaign for the following reasons:

- we missed the opportunity to make a move against the fire by subbing off players expected to make an impact this game.
- we were at home.
- we were playing a familiar opponent.
- a lot of our guys were liable to miss the next game due to yellow accumulation.
- we've already gotten into the mindset that winter is sacrificing the rest of a plausible season for a deeper CCL run.
- and we're facing a somewhat stronger side that doens't feel the same.

I think we need to change the thinking in Toronto maybe that will get us some results... "what the bleep to we know" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-azcMJ5JS4

must be required watching for rpb'rs ;) (top grossing documentary in 2004)

[maninb]

Isn't that what everyone said last year, and look at our results against the mexicans.

I'll save my 'no chances' until I see the starting lineup for their squad because from the sounds of what they put up against Dallas it may be Pumas second team.

Did you see the extended highlights of the Pumas - Dallas game??? Pumas should have won that game 5-1 easily....between the goalie, posts, and missed wipe open shots....they absolutely DOMINATED Dallas...if they play the same team against us THEY WILL KILL US!!! Second team or not! Of course I'd liek to be proven wrong...but I'd say the likelyhood of us getting 4 points off them is about ZERO...IMO our only hope is that we can get a WIN here, and then steal a point in Dallas, and have Pumas get beat in Dallas...

[Derko]

let the rebuild begin again...

Or better yet, be a realist and water it and watch it grow for a few years.
It will take that long.

[Technorgasm]

shit
the
bed
dissapointed to come back from the pub and see this.
hope you lads in toronto are dealing with this in typical (drunk) fashion.
ill be back in canada next week to join you.

[Yagbod]

that's what happens when your tired...

what are you 90... can't stay up passed 1 and get up b4 10..

im up for 8am slaving for the man after being up as well

btw get a job hippie ;)

edit: just kidding...

I feel like 90 today, I think the beer was poisoned last night...

And I have a job, with a super cool TFC lovin' boss.

Weekend hippie, to be sure...:stogey:

By the way, slightly off topic, but did anyone else see Alan Gordon hanging out in the smoking area last night (gate 3). I guess he was in town ahead of time for San Jose this weekend. He totally looked like a hippie, wearing one of those Rasta hair nets...

[Phil]

Did you see the extended highlights of the Pumas - Dallas game??? Pumas should have won that game 5-1 easily....between the goalie, posts, and missed wipe open shots....they absolutely DOMINATED Dallas...if they play the same team against us THEY WILL KILL US!!! Second team or not! Of course I'd liek to be proven wrong...but I'd say the likelyhood of us getting 4 points off them is about ZERO...IMO our only hope is that we can get a WIN here, and then steal a point in Dallas, and have Pumas get beat in Dallas...

Fair enough. Its football though, and results are never a sure thing.

Now, I think our backline needs to sharpen up because that is what is killing us. As for Dallas, sometimes its the the devil you know vs the devil you don't. They are a good side that made the finals that know how to play us. The 1-0 result definently makes it seem like we should have taken at least a draw though.

[Wull]

Or better yet, be a realist and water it and watch it grow for a few years.
It will take that long.


Stop making sense, God-damn it! This is where we're supposed to yell nonsensical things about not winning a game nobody expected us to!!

I was there, we panicked every time someone put a bit of pressure on us for some reason. Not many people looked comfortable on the ball and we have little to no penetration without Koevermans up front. Borman has to go. He can't play full back, he can't play wing back. He makes me miss Nick Garcia who was serviceable at left back once he was moved away from the centre.

Positives: Morgan seemed up for it when he came on, Harden seemed solid, we were two brain farts away from a draw (Johnston losing his man for the goal and Borman with a terrible play for the penalty). Oh and we got to go to the food hall at half-time.

[bgnewf]

TFC v Dallas - Photo Blog

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/08/tfc-v-dallas-photo-blog/

A post featuring some of the twenty nine photos I took at the replay of the TFC v Dallas Champions League match early Thursday morning at BMO Field.

[Blizzard]

Isn't that what everyone said last year, and look at our results against the mexicans.

I'll save my 'no chances' until I see the starting lineup for their squad because from the sounds of what they put up against Dallas it may be Pumas second team.

That's what people said and we ended up getting four of the six available points. They got one.

[Pookie]

pooks, its not like the majority of us expected to win, most of us pushed hard that we needed to win. thats where the disappointment comes from, and there's no doubt that 3 points against dallas at home was labeled as essential to our campaign for the following reasons:

- we missed the opportunity to make a move against the fire by subbing off players expected to make an impact this game.
- we were at home.
- we were playing a familiar opponent.
- a lot of our guys were liable to miss the next game due to yellow accumulation.
- we've already gotten into the mindset that winter is sacrificing the rest of a plausible season for a deeper CCL run.
- and we're facing a somewhat stronger side that doens't feel the same.

So, we needed the win but didn't expect to win? All this talk about sending a message to MLSE (not from you) is a function of being rational about the likelihood of winning? Simply just a result of a need unfulfilled?

3 points would definitely help the campaign. I wouldn't call them essential.

Tauro v Pumas happens tonight. If there is a draw there, we'd be 2 points clear, alone in 2nd with 4 games left. Regardless, even if there are 3 points awarded we'd be tied in 2nd with the victor.

If there was a tie breaker, we currently hold that with Tauro since it is points earned in games head to head, Goal differential in matches involving the two teams, then away goals involving the 2 teams (which we have 2 of). We have an advantage over Tauro as it stands now if we ended tied with them.

Arguably, this comes down to Dallas winning the group and whether we can beat out Pumas.

I get the disappointment with not winning. And there is a place for it.

But all this talk (again, not you) about writing off the team is laughable considering the big picture.

[ag futbol]

I hope nobody is too surprised. I haven't seen anything in our previous performances that suggested that we'd be pushing to beat Dallas.

What I want to see for the remainder of the season is the same: start picking up points at a higher rate than we did previously and show overall improvement.

[torfchamilton]

We lose a a lot having Frings in the back and not the midfield. His strength is in mid and we have nobody that we can fully trust for the back. So we have Frings and somebody else. Our options are Henry, harden, and Iro, 2 of these 3 guys. Not very commanding in my opinion. Also we don't have a target striker(Koevermans injured?). Plata, Marsosevic and Johnson, like to drift out wide and when a team packs 9 behind the ball in the box, we lack in the final 3rd. When Frings was moved to mid it was much better but too late. I haven't watched many games at BMO this year with my schedule, but it is very obvious we are still a few players short. Sure we will do well in some games, but the norm will be similar to today. Possession is ok, lacking in the final third.

[Shakes McQueen]

What I want to see for the remainder of the season is the same: start picking up points at a higher rate than we did previously and show overall improvement.

Same here. This has consistently been my stance since day one of this season. It was clear this team was not going to compete out of the gate - all I wanted to see was sustained improvement, and some smart player tranactions during the season that showed the building of a proper, balanced team. I think we've seen some of both, though the season isn't over, and there is still a lot of work to be dne (particularly on defense).

Hopefully my patience is rewarded, because the alternative is that we start over... again.

- Scott

[reggie]

its going to be another rebulid this winter.we need a whole new backline and that AM.
will will this ever stop.

[TFC1154ever]

I don't know what some people are smoking in here but i thought stinson was one of the worst players on the pitch. He did nothing encouraging and was reponsable for the 1st goal. I really hope him and Zav are gone next year. I see absolutely nothing in them. As for the group, there still 4 games remaning, which is 12 points, so people come down, things happen.

[Canary10]

I don't know what some people are smoking in here but i thought stinson was one of the worst players on the pitch. He did nothing encouraging and was reponsable for the 1st goal. I really hope him and Zav are gone next year. I see absolutely nothing in them. As for the group, there still 4 games remaning, which is 12 points, so people come down, things happen.

Funny because about 1/3 of the people voting for the best player on TFC's website voted for Stinson.

[__wowza]

So, we needed the win but didn't expect to win? All this talk about sending a message to MLSE (not from you) is a function of being rational about the likelihood of winning? Simply just a result of a need unfulfilled?

3 points would definitely help the campaign. I wouldn't call them essential.

what i meant was that we needed a win and this was one of the easiest places to get it outside of tauro. we've been abysmal on the road and the bulk of us don't see any points coming from any matches against the pumas.

i think you're oversimplifying the statistic as to where we're coming from. just because we may be 2 points clear, or tied with the victor doesn't take into account the upcoming schedule where we may find ourselves dropping points to both pumas and dallas, ya know?

[nickio]

Stinson is developing. He made mistakes (normal for development) and he also made some key tackles and won the ball against the mop head.

He is improving and is already much better on the field than in his first game.

If Toronto can at least raise him to a solid MLS calibre player we can trade him (sweeten the deal) for something valuable, and we didn't pay anything for him.

On a side note: does Winter sound like he is sick? crappy for him since he can't really call in sick if he is really not feeling well..

[jloome]

I don't know what some people are smoking in here but i thought stinson was one of the worst players on the pitch. He did nothing encouraging and was reponsable for the 1st goal. I really hope him and Zav are gone next year. I see absolutely nothing in them. As for the group, there still 4 games remaning, which is 12 points, so people come down, things happen.

They're voting for his work ethic. He was quite poor today.

He's a good prospect, though. His biggest weakness seems to be his passing. Leaves a lot of balls short, doesn't have much control. But he sees the pitch well and moves into space well. Getting rid of an 18 year old with his upside would be foolish to the extreme.

[bgnewf]

TFC Loses To Dallas in CCL Replay

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/08/ccl-replay/

In this post game video blog after TFC's loss to FC Dallas in the replay of the abandoned game from Wednesday I take a look at the following:

* Ten points is still the threshold that Toronto FC needs to get over to have a chance of qualifying for the knockout stages of the Champions League. I look at what Thursday's loss means to the math and to their prospects.
* I lament the fact that Danny Koevermans might have been the difference Thursday if he was available to play
* I ask if it is still worth playing Torsten Frings at the back
* And I take a look ahead to the San Jose game, the return of four former Reds and towards the upcoming International break

[Pookie]

what i meant was that we needed a win and this was one of the easiest places to get it outside of tauro. we've been abysmal on the road and the bulk of us don't see any points coming from any matches against the pumas.

i think you're oversimplifying the statistic as to where we're coming from. just because we may be 2 points clear, or tied with the victor doesn't take into account the upcoming schedule where we may find ourselves dropping points to both pumas and dallas, ya know?

You think the 3rd overall team in the MLS is an easy place to get points?

Even if the point is that Dallas were easy relative to Pumas, ultimately if Pumas and Dallas are the better teams going into this then they will emerge from the group stage unless we can pull off a miracle.

It's ok to want a miracle. That said, to get pissed off and down on the team when it doesn't happen is illogical isn't it?

I have no idea what kind of team Pumas is. Never saw them. I have no idea what their travel schedule is like, whether key players are injured, whether they themselves are focused on the CCL, etc. It would be a little silly of me to then conclude that we won't be able to beat or draw them.

We didn't need to go "all in" on the Dallas game. There are quite a few hands left.

[jazzy]

Honestly, I would say that TFC aren't any better than they were this time last season. Yes, we have a new coach with a new style, yes we have completely new squad barring a couple of players, but are TFC playing any better? I would honestly have to say no :( I would actually say that TFC are possibly worse now. I think our best two players of this season (Plata and Eckersley) are not as good as last season's best two players (Nana and De Rosario), and the thing that makes it even worse, is that Plata and Eckersley aren't owned by TFC.

Nana was never our best player?? And Frings is?? what??...your point may be correct but your argument is confusing.

[jloome]

That said, to get pissed off and down on the team when it doesn't happen is illogical isn't it?

No, not by definition. It depends why they're pissed off. It's one thing to expect another team to win because of performance to date, it's another to assume that domination is so complete that their opponents' lack of contribution is never a factor.

Our work ethic was shit for the first 70 minutes. We closed slowly, moved little or poorly off the ball and didn't switch play frequently, even though it was obvious we needed to create more space.

I expect to lose to a better team, sure. But if it's not accompanied by the kind of effort required to occasionally upset a better team, then it's entirely rational to get pissed off.

[jazzy]

It sucked but there were some bright spots.

Stinson is starting to become more comfortable out there. I'm really liking this kid and hope he continues to improve.


Also, can someone please tell Winter to stop putting Broman on the field. That guy is flat out garbage. I could find 50 guys in oldtimer leagues in the GTA that can play better than him. How this guy became a professional footballer is beyond me.

I think I hate Borman almost as much as Carts hates JDG. :D

He caused the first nights goal, they were just running done his right side the whole night 45 mins. I mean he was passed numerous times and they were just playing longball the whole time, knowing his weakness. For the life of me I do not know why Henry and Morgan were not starters!..They are not timid and have the speed and strength to progress. As soon as I saw our backline I knew our night was predictable and a night that we would be on our heels. Our backend is in shambles!

[jazzy]

Anyone have any attendance #s for this match?

Let's see there was me, my wife, saw coach, Almo....I'd go with 3500..lol

[jazzy]

It's our defense. Our atrocious defense affects the entire team - too many big mistakes leading to goals. Our attackers don't have the confidence to commit to the attack, because they don't trust our defenders to manage without them - particularly our central midfied.

And frankly, I don't blame them, because they SHOULDN'T trust our central defenders.

Winter clearly doesn't trust them either, or he wouldn't be using Frings, his expensive new DP midfielder, as a starting option back there.

Solve this, and I think any offensive issues resolve themselves. It would also explain why nearly every time we've shown an offensive player the door, they've gone on to have better results elsewhere. Too much time spent with guys worriedly looking backwards.

How Winter handles this major problem, probably in the off-season, is going to weigh heavily on my judgment of him. Ecks is the only keeper we've got in the back four, and even he hasn't been consistently good the past couple of months. Left back is a shambles, and hopefully Cann is good enough to occupy one of our starting CB spots, although even he wasn't looking great in his limited action this year.

- Scott

After all the freakouts this is the best analysis I've read....and it makes a LOT of sense...as dismayed as I am with our offence, Plata's sudden non-vision, poor crosses to who? This confused backline I imagine is THE place for improvement. Refreshing read rather than rhetoric.

[reggie]

what pissed me off,other then a lack of talent.
was the lack of effort they displyed last night and this morn.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

It definietly feels like TFC are on the verge of breaking through to the next level but just can't quite manage it.

im sure we will see it next year with even more time to gel and a way better back line as well as prob one or two upgrades in offense.

People forget this is the start to the team that Winter wants.

[rocker]

I agree on the assessment of the defense as the achilles that hasn't been resolved. We have enough attacking options and midfielders that we don't need to keep the revolving door going in those positions. But on defense, I'd ditch Borman and sign a decent experienced left back. I'd also sign a good CB who can pass (and doesn't resort to hoofing it up the pitch nervously under the slightest pressure). Eckersley is fine for MLS and Cann or Williams will be fine at CB if they have a good partner. Beyond that, I think it's time to settle down the roster and go with this bunch.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

also i dont see how anyone could possibly say we play anything like last year at this time. We are clearly more organized and capable of scoring goals.

I definitely agree with Borman (and have been saying so for a while). Hes actually decent going forward so id keep him for that at a low price but we definitely need a left back. Shit id like to see Viator there (or at CB) at least to see what dude can do.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

the absolute last thing we need is another new coach and another year of new players etc. What we have is a great start and will we see ieven better next year.

[MartinUtd]

Who is #18? I can't believe that classless piss stain fired the ball into the stands after the final whistle like that. He deserves a coin in the temple plain and simple.

[TFC USA]

Or better yet, be a realist and water it and watch it grow for a few years.
It will take that long.

This might be the most backwards expansion side ever created.

Portland could make the playoffs in year one, Seattle already did, Philly might make in year two, we need six years at the least.

[69Chevy396]

This might be the most backwards expansion side ever created.

Portland could make the playoffs in year one, Seattle already did, Philly might make in year two, we need six years at the least.
Get used to it my friend. This is Toronto, where mlse reigns supreme and losing is part of the process and the plan. Need a rookie manager anybody?

And, based on a few games, Frings, while better than JDG, appears to be another wasted DP signing. Yes he is a proven winner. Yes he has scored and won in many world cup games. But, as a defender, he may as well be Attakora or Gargan. We lose with, or without him. Until we see him play a dozen games as an attacking midfielder, his presence will be a complete waste. What the fuck is the manager thinking?

[evermorian]

What the fuck is the manager thinking?

What would you have the manager to do? With a depleted back line and an incompetent center back in Iro, he has to put the best available person in that position. Right now, unfortunately, that person is Frings. What would you do? Right now Winter has to work with what he has, and unfortunately what he doesn't have right now is a center back. And there are other ways to make an argument without using a swear word, just saying.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Until we see him play a dozen games as an attacking midfielder, his presence will be a complete waste. What the fuck is the manager thinking?

Sorry but Frings has never been and never will be an attacking mid fielder. Also, I feel he has been our best player since joining the team. Am i watching different games or just out to lunch?

[Canary Canuck]

On a good note, 10 man Tauro is holding Pumas scoreless through 72 minutes.

[Macksam]

This is a team that's getting better, versus a team that's already good.

- Scott
Yeah, anyone who says we are worse than last season is being overly pretentious. We improved quite a bit since last year. We just need to shore up the defense and we'll be good to go.

[Juanito]

It's our defense. Our atrocious defense affects the entire team - too many big mistakes leading to goals. Our attackers don't have the confidence to commit to the attack, because they don't trust our defenders to manage without them - particularly our central midfied.

And frankly, I don't blame them, because they SHOULDN'T trust our central defenders.

Winter clearly doesn't trust them either, or he wouldn't be using Frings, his expensive new DP midfielder, as a starting option back there.

Solve this, and I think any offensive issues resolve themselves. It would also explain why nearly every time we've shown an offensive player the door, they've gone on to have better results elsewhere. Too much time spent with guys worriedly looking backwards.

How Winter handles this major problem, probably in the off-season, is going to weigh heavily on my judgment of him. Ecks is the only keeper we've got in the back four, and even he hasn't been consistently good the past couple of months. Left back is a shambles, and hopefully Cann is good enough to occupy one of our starting CB spots, although even he wasn't looking great in his limited action this year.

- Scott

It's funny you should say this because usually, you build a team from the back out. I don't think we've ever had a really solid back line. Probably the year three was the best we had, and that was still pretty awful.

To me it seems Winter and gang concentrated all their efforts on offense, they forgot we were bleeding goals.

I hope to goodness that they go get themselves the best MLS CBs they can get in the offseason. We're done now. We're stuck with this gang. I guess the best we can do is enjoy the ride.

[69Chevy396]

Sorry but Frings has never been and never will be an attacking mid fielder. Also, I feel he has been our best player since joining the team. Am i watching different games or just out to lunch?
Excuse me for asking. Wasn't he signed to add offence? He is versatile and has a record of creating and scoring goals. Winter has other options for the back end. My point is if we are still losing with him playing defence wouldn't it be prudent to give the team a shot at winning by playing him where he would make the most of his abilities? Give the fans something to cheer about. I am sick of losing by never scoring. Next year Winter will go after Ronaldo and have him play right back.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Excuse me for asking. Wasn't he signed to add offence? He is versatile and has a record of creating and scoring goals. Winter has other options for the back end. My point is if we are still losing with him playing defence wouldn't it be prudent to give the team a shot at winning by playing him where he would make the most of his abilities? Give the fans something to cheer about. I am sick of losing by never scoring. Next year Winter will go after Ronaldo and have him play right back.

No he was not signed to play offence. He is defensive player. Ronaldo was an attacking player.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

He's being played there out of necessity clearly. Ill be gobsmacked if he's still played out of position next season when we've had time to sign better defenders

[69Chevy396]

No he was not signed to play offence. He is defensive player. Ronaldo was an attacking player.
He is capable of scoring and is a talented and versatile player. Any footballer who can play for so long for one of the world's greatest National teams, and score dozens of great goals in the process was not signed by the second worst team in third tier MLS to play central defender.

[DoubleUp]

First frings must Get fit!....Koevs aswell.........right now fat wastes of millions.
:fluffy:
The boys and little men that resemble boys, must be placed on the bench and replaced with high mls calibre athletes.

The team is good but the competitive nature must raised.

[T-boy]

Yeah, anyone who says we are worse than last season is being overly pretentious. We improved quite a bit since last year. We just need to shore up the defense and we'll be good to go.

I can't say we are "worse than last season"...but I would sincerely say that we are absolutely no better.

I would say that the playing staff are possibly a little WORSE overall compared to last season. DeRo and Barrett were very good attackers (I was always a fan of Barrett, his work ethic was better than all our current players except Eckersley), Cann and Nana had a great partnership in defence. The players we have in those positions right now (Koevermans and Johnson, Iro and ????) are not as good as last season's counterparts.

I would, however say, that the tactics are "slightly better" than last seasons. Not that I like 4-3-3 or Winter's tactics AT ALL, but they are "better" than Preki's long ball boringness.

Winter's big mistake, in my opinion, was to totally overhall the squad. He didn't need to do that. The spine of last season's team was good (Frei, Cann, DeGuzman, Derosario, Barrett) and Winter SHOULD have signed a couple of wingers and full backs to compliment these players. I think players like Eckersley and Plata would have fitted in well with this original spine of players.

However, Winter decided to completely change the squad, has lost the best players in the original team, and hasn't replaced them with anything better. This was poor judgement by the new management regime.

Winter didn't need to "rebuild", he needed to take what he inherited, which DID have some good elements, and build on that.

[Yagbod]

Perhaps Winter expects to around more than 6-8 months. Even MLSE must know that the carousel of managers has to end. It is a long term plan folks. Most of us are not going to die tomorrow... relax.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

Another important thing people are forgetting, is that Dallas is a really really good team. Dallas is fast, tight, compact, well coached and very hard to break down. If anybody thinks we came into this game as Favourites, then you are sadly mistaken....

This game is played with 11, this eleven must fight for each other, they should constantly be moving. Yet some of the guys are not skilled enough or fit enough....but this game can also be played and won by using your head and your heart! When all 11 players fight for each other as they would if they were going into battle, you would see different results....

[cincy]

Tauro drew with Pumas last night .. best result for us.

[69Chevy396]

Perhaps Winter expects to around more than 6-8 months. Even MLSE must know that the carousel of managers has to end. It is a long term plan folks. Most of us are not going to die tomorrow... relax.
Long term plan? I agree in principal, but frankly this argument merely illustrates just how incompetent MLSE and Winter are at this. If a long term plan were in place as the principal strategy, then how do u explain or rationalize the departure of young players such as Cronin, Attakora, Tchani, coupled with the moves to obtain older players such as Frings? Why did the team not work harder to retain the number one draw at the gates who led all players in scoring and provided a level of interest and excitement that we have seldom witnessed here? If they were bulding for the future, why did Gordon come here, and then get traded? Compared with other expansion clubs TFC has been a disaster. Don't view what may come, but what has occurred. That is the factual history of this team: mediocrity incarnate.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Nana was not working here.
Gordon was hurt too much.

Keeping those two is not looking to the future.

Cronin got us Frings and you're complaining.

Tchani was the future and was dealt for obvious needs at the back that ARE NOT being met by an older player that had not a lot of play before getting here.

[69Chevy396]

Nana was not working here.
Gordon was hurt too much.

Keeping those two is not looking to the future.
Nana was referred to as an untouchable by the media, by management, by many of the RPB posters here, and was along with Cann considered our future. That, was less than a year ago. Long term plans are long term. Saying that he was not working here is based on a couple of months, early in the season, while he was injured and learning a new system. A proponent of long term thinking would agree that dumping him so soon, was a short term brain fart. Long term plans need long term assessment periods. Gordon was hurt too much. Gordon scored when healthy. He gets injured. the solution; trade him. Shit, it must be time to trade koevermans now, he has missed a few games due to injury, and that must make a huge dent in the long term plan

[Fort York Redcoat]

So who do you give more time? The player or the coach?

[Shakes McQueen]

Long term plan? I agree in principal, but frankly this argument merely illustrates just how incompetent MLSE and Winter are at this. If a long term plan were in place as the principal strategy, then how do u explain or rationalize the departure of young players such as Cronin, Attakora, Tchani, coupled with the moves to obtain older players such as Frings? Why did the team not work harder to retain the number one draw at the gates who led all players in scoring and provided a level of interest and excitement that we have seldom witnessed here? If they were bulding for the future, why did Gordon come here, and then get traded? Compared with other expansion clubs TFC has been a disaster. Don't view what may come, but what has occurred. That is the factual history of this team: mediocrity incarnate.

Building a team in MLS, is not primarily accomplished through kids. This isn't the NHL or NFL, where the draft is still the best way to build a team. We have a world of footballers available to us, of all ages. As such, bringing in veteran players isn't such a big deal, because they aren't irreplacable.

Building a proper team isn't a straight line up - Winter is going to, and has made, mistakes along the way. Some acquisitions won't work out, and some will.

And Gordon got traded, because he was made of glass. He was a useful player when he played. I will also challenge your assertion that Dero was a major "draw" for the club. Attendance had continued to wane under DeRo, because winning is ultimately what brings people to the stadium.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Gordon was hurt too much. Gordon scored when healthy. He gets injured. the solution; trade him. Shit, it must be time to trade koevermans now, he has missed a few games due to injury, and that must make a huge dent in the long term plan

Don't be pedantic. Gordon was injured all the time in his stint here.

- Scott

[Greatest Ripoff]

Nana was referred to as an untouchable by the media, by management, by many of the RPB posters here, and was along with Cann considered our future. That, was less than a year ago. Long term plans are long term. Saying that he was not working here is based on a couple of months, early in the season, while he was injured and learning a new system. A proponent of long term thinking would agree that dumping him so soon, was a short term brain fart. Long term plans need long term assessment periods. Gordon was hurt too much. Gordon scored when healthy. He gets injured. the solution; trade him. Shit, it must be time to trade koevermans now, he has missed a few games due to injury, and that must make a huge dent in the long term plan


And have you seen Attakora's plays since being dealt to San Jose? It's been pretty poor. The supporters in San Jose are more upset about getting him then you are about losing him. And Gordon? He's been injured since he was traded.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Johnson is younger than Gordon = long term plan.

I kid. Younger is not always better.

[69Chevy396]

Don't be pedantic. Gordon was injured all the time in his stint here.

- Scott
The Gordon issue reflects Winter's lack of savy and knowledge of MLS. Gordon, when healthy played brilliantly at times. He took a bad injury, was learning a new system, but still managed to perform up to expectations when healthy. We held onto Barrett for a longer period of time, that guy was full of beans but had little goal scoring prowess. Gordon should have been given more time. Had Winter been here in 2007 he would have traded Dichio by July of that season. Now that Koevermans is brought here, with the same anticipation of goals that were virtually a sure thing with Dero, he too is injury prone. Do we trade him as soon as another has been aged soccer star becomes available? This is not long term planning. If it were, TFC would be at the top of the league, and not the bottom

[69Chevy396]

And have you seen Attakora's plays since being dealt to San Jose? It's been pretty poor. The supporters in San Jose are more upset about getting him then you are about losing him. And Gordon? He's been injured since he was traded.
Long term planning cannot be measured by short term factors. Attakora, in a few years, may be the player he was destined to be, no way of knowing that now. Besides. Did his injuries suddenly disappear, could he be playing hurt? Seems to me, whenever Winter or mlse makes a boneheaded move, apologies abound, but when you take a careful look at what he is doing, it is harder, and harder to find any sense to it all. Yes, Johnson is a good player. So was Tchanni. So was Cronin. Lambrocca. Build a team, wreck a team, build a team.....this is mlse legacy in Toronto. Getting close is nice (for the leaf apologists who believe that close every 10 years means something), but that is not what sports entertainment is about if your primary focus is on pleasing the fans, and not making money. Did any of the season ticket holders get an offer of free seats to an mls game because of the rain out? Serves them right getting 500 people. More attended the super dog show at CNE than took in free tickets to the game. That will unfortunately become another legacy here, if they don't quickly take a few lessons from the ownership in LA, Seattle, Philly etc.

Sorry all. I am a frustrated season ticket holder who is so pissed off at this club right now. I cannot even give my seats away. Like having a sliver in the eye. It could have been so much better than this.

[Shakes McQueen]

The Gordon issue reflects Winter's lack of savy and knowledge of MLS. Gordon, when healthy played brilliantly at times. He took a bad injury, was learning a new system, but still managed to perform up to expectations when healthy.

Yes, WHEN HEALTHY.


We held onto Barrett for a longer period of time, that guy was full of beans but had little goal scoring prowess.

Barrett was kept around because a) his contract was hard to move, and b) he had other appealing qualities, many of which were directly appealing to Preki's style of football.


Gordon should have been given more time. Had Winter been here in 2007 he would have traded Dichio by July of that season. Now that Koevermans is brought here, with the same anticipation of goals that were virtually a sure thing with Dero, he too is injury prone. Do we trade him as soon as another has been aged soccer star becomes available? This is not long term planning. If it were, TFC would be at the top of the league, and not the bottom

How have you determined that Koevermans is injury prone? And you're aware that Gordon is out again, this time for the season, right?

- Scott

[123 elite]

watching that game yesterday from a different viewpoint in the stadium was interesting. I thought the midfield was invisible. It was surprising how little room any TFC player had on the ball and the lack of supporting movement was depressing as was the number of times JDG lost the ball. Very little went through the middle especially in the first half. Only Kovic and Frings played decently. Frings was cool on the ball and never looked ruffled at any point. Stinson was woeful but to be fair had so few options when he had the ball. It was usually a ball up the wing and quickly lost. His crossing is abysmal. Plata is undisciplined. He runs like a seal flapping his flippers. Easy to play against because he always wants to get the ball on his right foot. The rest of them are not really worth commenting on. Lack of discipline, lack of inventiveess, lack of pace and the way they sauntered on to the park for the 2nd half you could see they were defeated.

T-boy has it right. We didnt need a lot of these players. I can see a lot of them gone next year and the whole rebuild will start again.

[v00d00daddy]

Nana was referred to as an untouchable by the media, by management, by many of the RPB posters here, and was along with Cann considered our future.

Sorry but management obviously didn't consider him untouchable if they moved him.

As for the media and RPB posters....well, I think I'll go with Winter's assessment of Nana over anybody in those two camps. You know, considering he knows a good player when he sees one.

BTW...watch an Earthquakes game and then come back and let me know if you miss him.



That, was less than a year ago. Long term plans are long term. Saying that he was not working here is based on a couple of months, early in the season, while he was injured and learning a new system. A proponent of long term thinking would agree that dumping him so soon, was a short term brain fart. Long term plans need long term assessment periods. Gordon was hurt too much. Gordon scored when healthy. He gets injured. the solution; trade him. Shit, it must be time to trade koevermans now, he has missed a few games due to injury, and that must make a huge dent in the long term plan


Are you even listening to yourself?

Don't you think that Winter is part of the "long term plan"?

So logically you'd think that your assessment period might be a bit longer than what you've seen so far?

Again...you're one of these people that looks at the last 5 years as some kind of barometer of what is going to happen in the future. Nothing is going to change in your eyes.

You can't see TFC ever being good on the path that they're heading down. The only problem is....once they are good (and I think they're on their way) you'll look at the table and say "see...they're at the top of the Eastern Conference...that's why I call progress".

Unfortunately by then you'll have missed the actual progress. You know...the thing that's happening before your very eyes as we speak.

[v00d00daddy]

How have you determined that Koevermans is injury prone? And you're aware that Gordon is out again, this time for the season, right?

- Scott

Hmm..interesting to hear.

I left the game on Wednesday when they first cleared the players off the field. While I was walking out I'm pretty sure I saw Gordon walking towards Gate 3 with some other guy.

Not sure why he'd have been in town though. Who knows?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I doubt and disagree whole heartedly we will see the majority of these players gone next year. Fringe players like Martina and SOolsma, yes (as well as our backline) but id bet our starting 11 right now, IF it differs will only have 1 or two new comers.
This is easily one of the more frustrating threads this forum has seen in recent weeks. People need to realise, whether their expert soccer minds grasp it or not, that

a) we have made great strides since last year, our passing and positioning is better than it has ever been before, this is partially because of our FO and partially because they finally got to bring the players they wanted in HALF WAY THROUGH THE SEASON

b) Dallas is one of the best teams in the league, like top 3 best

c) we played quite well and just couldnt finish, we didnt lose 5 nil like we have with our 'best players' that we had previously and have since traded off, some not making the cut, some being surplus to our needs (see Tchani where we have Dunfield, Stinson, Frings and De Guzman)

d) as of right now we've got 6 more games before we are out of this tournament, we could have won this game and it would have been beneficial but we are not out yet

Im off for a bit, enjoy your winge-fest.

[123 elite]

^

a) Passing and positioning is generally poor. Lots of short passing to people heavily marked and a complete lack of movement off the ball to give options for passing. Dreadful crossing from both wings.

b) yes

c) Other than the marosovic chance in the first half we created almost no goal possible moves.

d) we could have won it yes. Based on the law of averages. Based on the play no. Dallas scored and missed a penalty and had a few other decent attempts. We had only one clear chance to score. At one point Dallas cleared a corner i think and within about 10-15 secs they had shifted the ball up the park through good passing and won a corner. We never did anything like that. Our build up was slow. Usually a pass across the back to the wing. A little saunter up the wing a a touchline hugging ball for plata to run after before it went out for a throw.

I don't know where you watched the game from to see that they could have won. If you were in the singing crowd that spent most of the second half shouting abuse at the goakeeper then you may have missed what was happening on the park.

[ryan]

He is capable of scoring and is a talented and versatile player. Any footballer who can play for so long for one of the world's greatest National teams, and score dozens of great goals in the process was not signed by the second worst team in third tier MLS to play central defender.

Dozens of goals?

He's got 10 in 80 int'l matches and 60 in over 450 club matches.

Frings is not a goal scorer, he's a hard tackler with precision ball movement ability and is a natural leader.

[ryan]

Was it just me or did anyone else find Marosevic slower than a turtle in both the abandoned and completed matches?

[Phil]

That's what people said and we ended up getting four of the six available points. They got one.

Well a 0-0 between pumas and panama means I hold on to my optimism :D

:scarf:

[brad]

So who do you give more time? The player or the coach?

Both. This is not a video game where you can move players around at will with no effect on the performance.

It's a team game where success is based heavily on familiarity and team chemistry. We just replaced more or less the entire team and now we need to give them time to gel. A number of players also did not play much before coming here so there is also a matter of match fitness. I don't think we will really see what this group has to offer until next year.

Our results since Winter gutted the team have actually been a lot better than I expected they would be.

As for the manager - replace him and you are back to square one.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Both. This is not a video game where you can move players around at will with no effect on the performance.

It's a team game where success is based heavily on familiarity and team chemistry. We just replaced more or less the entire team and now we need to give them time to gel. A number of players also did not play much before coming here so there is also a matter of match fitness. I don't think we will really see what this group has to offer until next year.

Our results since Winter gutted the team have actually been a lot better than I expected they would be.

As for the manager - replace him and you are back to square one.

I was only pointing out that the discussion was leading to an either/or debate. Your right, of course players need time to gel. If they are let go early there should be a good reason. Especially with the amount of present turnover.

BTW's if this is a video game it's the most expensive one I've come across. NOt only that but the weather where I play this video game sucks.:D

[Pookie]

No, not by definition. It depends why they're pissed off. It's one thing to expect another team to win because of performance to date, it's another to assume that domination is so complete that their opponents' lack of contribution is never a factor.

Our work ethic was shit for the first 70 minutes. We closed slowly, moved little or poorly off the ball and didn't switch play frequently, even though it was obvious we needed to create more space.

I expect to lose to a better team, sure. But if it's not accompanied by the kind of effort required to occasionally upset a better team, then it's entirely rational to get pissed off.

Fair enough. I too was disappointed with the effort which is something we can control. I'm not sure that a stronger effort would have produced a different result but at least we'd know they'd given it everything they had.

That said, with the Pumas/Tauro draw last night, we are in good shape. 2 points clear and we currently hold the tiebreaker on Tauro. While we may lament the stinky Dallas game let's not forget the important 2 road goals and 3 points in Tauro.

[69Chevy396]

Just to clarify:

Frings has scored remarkable goals, and has been a mainstay in the German attack for many years. His forays into the opposing end are what started many goal scoring chances for that club. Calling him a defensive specialist is simply wrong. He could do it all. Very versatile. So, when you recruit him to play in what amounts to a third tier German or Italian or English league, there is no way millions are spent to watch him play central defense. Sorry, this is just crazy. And yes, he can play defense, or holding mid, or even keeper if he wanted to. That is not the point. He was brought here to set up goals. Period. That is what Winter told us. Yet now the apologists forget this.

Winters told us he would rebuild, and that is why he went after Tchani etc. Remember what he said about this player? Future all star etc. If you are going to convince your fans that a rebuild is necessary than you don't talk through the side of your mouth. Trading Tchani was a sign of desperation by a manager who had no clue what he was doing.

Gordon may be injured, yes, so what. Players get injured all the time. You don't make long term plans around this factor, instead you build a team of solid team around your best players. If Frings brakes a leg on Saturday some of you guys will say we should have traded him cause look, he is injured now.

MLS is a developing league, and not a very good one. You build interesting and winning teams by filling the squad with average to better than average north american players with some international ringers. It is easy really. You draft Cronin. You keep Cronin. You trade for Labrocca, you keep him. You draft Attakora, you keep him. In the end your team wins more than this woeful club is now. How can anybody say things are good when they are last except for Vancouver?

[Shakes McQueen]

So many inaccuracies and logical fallacies... must...resist...responding.

- Scott

[Greatest Ripoff]

Just to clarify:

Frings has scored remarkable goals, and has been a mainstay in the German attack for many years.

No he has been a defensive mid for many years.



Gordon may be injured, yes, so what.

When you are injured all of the time you can't contribute! The most goals Gordon has scored in a season is 5 (in 26 games). He has played 11 games this year and had 21 last year. How can you succeed with a striker who isn't playing or scoring?

[Beach_Red]

Building a team in MLS, is not primarily accomplished through kids. This isn't the NHL or NFL, where the draft is still the best way to build a team. We have a world of footballers available to us, of all ages. As such, bringing in veteran players isn't such a big deal, because they aren't irreplacable.

Building a proper team isn't a straight line up - Winter is going to, and has made, mistakes along the way. Some acquisitions won't work out, and some will.




Yes, this seems to be what's happening. Once we got over all the pre-season marketing talk about bringing in "the best FO in MLS" and "establishing a culture" and all that "vision" talk just started to build a typical MLS team like the rest of the league things started to look better.

[brad]

Experienced players help the kids develop.

[Shakes McQueen]

Yes, this seems to be what's happening. Once we got over all the pre-season marketing talk about bringing in "the best FO in MLS" and "establishing a culture" and all that "vision" talk just started to build a typical MLS team like the rest of the league things started to look better.

Building a team culture and having a vision for the club, are different than how you go about acquiring the players that fit within it.

But yes, the stuff about having "The Best FO in MLS" is just marketing pap. It's impossible to gauge unless you're constantly winning the league, for one.

- Scott

[69Chevy396]

Winter on Tchani, referencing DeRO; “He’s a good player. It’s a pity if he’s going to go away,” Winter said before the deal was done. “But still, we are rebuilding a team and we want to try also young players and other players who maybe in the future are coming.”

Winter, on trading Tchani for Iro: “We needed help on defence and Andy is a defender that we have wanted to bring in for some time,” Toronto FC coach Aron Winter said in a release. “After our deals yesterday we felt we could move a central midfielder of value to acquire an important piece. Leandre also provides us depth in the midfield.”

On IRO, local media comments on the trade:" Winter said he had done his research and 26-year-old Iro was the kind of experienced central defender he had been hoping to acquire to bring quality to Toronto’s underachieving backline. A native of Liverpool, England, Iro has made 58 MLS appearances and was part of Columbus’ 2008 MLS Cup win. This season, however, the 6-foot-4 defender has played only four games"

I realize Tchani had his faults, like most young players in MLS. Drafted second overall however, should mean something. Evidently, it means nothing. TFC scouts and Winter felt Andy Iro was a much better prospect. And we have seen how well that has turned out for us.

Funny how all through the year that Dero was playing prior to the cheque signing joke, posters in here, including myself, would have said I was stupid to even consider moving Dero. He was and is, the best all time TFC player. How fickle people are. If he were still on the team, more fans would care about this club and the league. It was a marketing and public relations disaster. All the talk of rebuilding by the new guy is a load of crap when you look at this one Tchani/\Iro matter. Then add all the other stupid moves, and we will be watching another rebuild next year, and the year after, and after.....

I make no apologies. I liked Dero. I liked his tenacity. I liked his unpredictability and his penchant for scoring goals when you least expected them. I see nothing among the new players who offer anything remotely similar in both quality or expectation.

[Blizzard]

Well a 0-0 between pumas and panama means I hold on to my optimism :D

:scarf:

As do I. It was a very fortunate result for us.

[Blizzard]

No he has been a defensive mid for many years.



When you are injured all of the time you can't contribute! The most goals Gordon has scored in a season is 5 (in 26 games). He has played 11 games this year and had 21 last year. How can you succeed with a striker who isn't playing or scoring?

... or a striker that is attacking a team staffer. That was the final nail in his TFC coffin.

[MartinUtd]

... or a striker that is attacking a team staffer. That was the final nail in his TFC coffin.

huh? never head about that one

[Shakes McQueen]

I realize Tchani had his faults, like most young players in MLS. Drafted second overall however, should mean something. Evidently, it means nothing. TFC scouts and Winter felt Andy Iro was a much better prospect. And we have seen how well that has turned out for us.

Iro wasn't a "prospect". Winter traded Tchani, in an attempt to fill a gaping hole in our lineup with a veteran defender who had previously been named player of the year on his team. We had depth at midfield, and Tchani didn't look like he was quite ready for regular MLS minutes, so they traded him. You have to trade perceived value to get perceived value back. And it still remains to be seen what Tchani will become, or what management here saw in him.

Iro hasn't worked out great for us so far, but I don't think it was a terrible idea - and many other people didn't either, at the time.

The bottom line is that Tchani was surplus to our immediate needs, so he became a bargaining chip.

I can also show you a list of people drafted high into MLS, who have become mediocre at best - including a few who were drafted by TFC. The NCAA draft is a thoroughly mixed bag.

- Scott

[smtavare]

This might be the most backwards expansion side ever created.

Portland could make the playoffs in year one, Seattle already did, Philly might make in year two, we need six years at the least.

With the payer turnover this year..we have a new team on the pitch since July and everyone expects and accepts that were are we deserve to be in CCL...c'mon

RED & GREY DISEASE IS SPREADING LIKE WILDFIRE HERE. MLSE MUST HAVE PLANTED THE VIRUS!

[Fort York Redcoat]

Winter on Tchani, referencing DeRO; “He’s a good player. It’s a pity if he’s going to go away,” Winter said before the deal was done. “But still, we are rebuilding a team and we want to try also young players and other players who maybe in the future are coming.”

That's a quote saying future, prospect.


Winter, on trading Tchani for Iro: “We needed help on defence and Andy is a defender that we have wanted to bring in for some time,” Toronto FC coach Aron Winter said in a release. “After our deals yesterday we felt we could move a central midfielder of value to acquire an important piece. Leandre also provides us depth in the midfield.”That's a quote NOT about future, prospect. An important piece. That's it.


On IRO, local media comments on the trade:" Winter said he had done his research and 26-year-old Iro was the kind of experienced central defender he had been hoping to acquire to bring quality to Toronto’s underachieving backline. A native of Liverpool, England, Iro has made 58 MLS appearances and was part of Columbus’ 2008 MLS Cup win. This season, however, the 6-foot-4 defender has played only four games"

I realize Tchani had his faults, like most young players in MLS. Drafted second overall however, should mean something. Evidently, it means nothing. TFC scouts and Winter felt Andy Iro was a much better prospect. And we have seen how well that has turned out for us.No. They never said Iro would be a better prospect. He was filling a role. He did it poorly.


Funny how all through the year that Dero was playing prior to the cheque signing joke, posters in here, including myself, would have said I was stupid to even consider moving Dero. He was and is, the best all time TFC player. How fickle people are. If he were still on the team, more fans would care about this club and the league. It was a marketing and public relations disaster. All the talk of rebuilding by the new guy is a load of crap when you look at this one Tchani/\Iro matter. Then add all the other stupid moves, and we will be watching another rebuild next year, and the year after, and after.....

I make no apologies. I liked Dero. I liked his tenacity. I liked his unpredictability and his penchant for scoring goals when you least expected them. I see nothing among the new players who offer anything remotely similar in both quality or expectation.

If we had kept DeRo the team and league would be better followed? On the road we were on? DeRo was a key part of that marketing relations disaster you speak of.

What's happening here is we are witnessing over a season the concentration on development (Tchani and other kids) when DeRo had to go and then the boys at the top opened the war chest for 2 more DP's.

If your complaining that the development/long term strategy took a back seat because we finally got the DP's we could always afford I don't know what to say to that.

I just wish we had this plan before the season started.

[jazzy]

Just to clarify:

Frings has scored remarkable goals, and has been a mainstay in the German attack for many years. His forays into the opposing end are what started many goal scoring chances for that club. Calling him a defensive specialist is simply wrong. He could do it all. Very versatile. So, when you recruit him to play in what amounts to a third tier German or Italian or English league, there is no way millions are spent to watch him play central defense. Sorry, this is just crazy. And yes, he can play defense, or holding mid, or even keeper if he wanted to. That is not the point. He was brought here to set up goals. Period. That is what Winter told us. Yet now the apologists forget this.

Winters told us he would rebuild, and that is why he went after Tchani etc. Remember what he said about this player? Future all star etc. If you are going to convince your fans that a rebuild is necessary than you don't talk through the side of your mouth. Trading Tchani was a sign of desperation by a manager who had no clue what he was doing.

Gordon may be injured, yes, so what. Players get injured all the time. You don't make long term plans around this factor, instead you build a team of solid team around your best players. If Frings brakes a leg on Saturday some of you guys will say we should have traded him cause look, he is injured now.

MLS is a developing league, and not a very good one. You build interesting and winning teams by filling the squad with average to better than average north american players with some international ringers. It is easy really. You draft Cronin. You keep Cronin. You trade for Labrocca, you keep him. You draft Attakora, you keep him. In the end your team wins more than this woeful club is now. How can anybody say things are good when they are last except for Vancouver?

man you're killing me lol, I think with all your angst you really care for this team,..lol..you've certainly voiced your frustrations....I can sympathize but I do not think our league is "not very good", we might now be 'not very good' but Dallas, RSL etc are GOOD teams...emphasis on TEAM. And how about LA, Robbie Keane is not 'past his prime' and he"his wife"(sic) chose to play in LA. I like this league and as can be seen by your frustration/devotion, the league is getting very competitive. Dallas, RSL etc are playing a good game and after watching Peterborough beat Ipswich last weak 7-1 how would you feel if that was TFC...That game and talent was the worst display of soccer I've seen since watching Caribbean games, lol..AND that was the English Championship League!!!!...I'll go with Jaunito and say we just have to bear with it try to enjoy the ride. Even the best fail many times.....Everyones critism's are VERY valid,..but Nana had to go, I watched him close up at reserves and he's a different man,(still say he'll never fully recover from his injuries);..and wanted out..to play! Presently, our backend is always letting us down. If a team can't score on us, we are well on our way! All the good teams have talented monsters on D....note I said talented. I love the majority of posters deep enthusiasm, and can feel it in everyone's disappointment...It's like a sliver, you can't remove, baring MLSE selling haha,..Guess we just grind our teeth. Remember though the last 4 years mean nothing to Winter. This team is only 1 year old to him!....enjoy the passion though! Hold fast what else is there!..btw support the academy everyone!

[Shakes McQueen]

I just wish we had this plan before the season started.

I seem to recall an interview with Mariner where he said they wanted to give the entire lineup a fair shake before deciding who needed to go, hence the massive turnover as soon as the window opened.

I also presume Koevermans and Frings still weren't available when our season started, so pruning needed to be done to make way for their cap hits.

- Scott

[jazzy]

huh? never head about that one

he mentioned his injury, was misdiagnosed, and he was forced to play when he wasn't ready, leading to his reinjury.......whaaaaa! Certainly not hockey players who on many occasions bite the bullet for the team..and who criticizes a situation when it is finished?..or shifts blame to another?...nuff said

[Fort York Redcoat]

I seem to recall an interview with Mariner where he said they wanted to give the entire lineup a fair shake before deciding who needed to go, hence the massive turnover as soon as the window opened.

I also presume Koevermans and Frings still weren't available when our season started, so pruning needed to be done to make way for their cap hits.

- Scott

Cool but with 4 seasons of frustrated fans you'd presume they would've had plenty of motivation to start the season with the team they wanted to get them to the window. I accept there can be 2 starts to every season but there were a frustrating amount of moves in between for me.

[Shakes McQueen]

Cool but with 4 seasons of frustrated fans you'd presume they would've had plenty of motivation to start the season with the team they wanted to get them to the window. I accept there can be 2 starts to every season but there were a frustrating amount of moves in between for me.

I suspect even Winter and Mariner don't want us to be happy about it, after four years of garbage - they just want us to understand their reasoning for doing it that way.

- Scott

[69Chevy396]

I am the first to admit I am not nearly as well versed in the technical , aspects of soccer as many of you are. That is why I like reading these threads, and why I come here so often. In some ways, this is, for me at least, a good place to gain some understanding of MLS etc, when I am not at BMO. But Jesus. Supporting this team is as painful as a good kick to the testicles, or having the Devil stuff a pineapple up your butt for eternity. Wait two years for a star striker. Star striker is signed. Star striker is traded for prospect. Prospect is traded for solid defender. Solid defender sucks and is booed off the pitch after playing so poorly. What is a lukewarm fan like me supposed to make out of this? The average Torontonian could care less about soccer, and even less about TFC. For this to change, somebody needs to explain this perplexing course of events that continue month after month and year after year. How can one believe in Winter by the way he handled the Dero, Gordon and Tchani issue? This is reminicent of Carver and cunningham. I am not trying to piss people off here, I respect what the RPB do for the club and for the atmosphere at BMO. I realize you guys are forever optimistic but how can an average fan count on this team actually giving them an entertaining product for years to come based on what has happened this year alone?

[jazzy]

I am the first to admit I am not nearly as well versed in the technical , aspects of soccer as many of you are. That is why I like reading these threads, and why I come here so often. In some ways, this is, for me at least, a good place to gain some understanding of MLS etc, when I am not at BMO. But Jesus. Supporting this team is as painful as a good kick to the testicles, or having the Devil stuff a pineapple up your butt for eternity. Wait two years for a star striker. Star striker is signed. Star striker is traded for prospect. Prospect is traded for solid defender. Solid defender sucks and is booed off the pitch after playing so poorly. What is a lukewarm fan like me supposed to make out of this? The average Torontonian could care less about soccer, and even less about TFC. For this to change, somebody needs to explain this perplexing course of events that continue month after month and year after year. How can one believe in Winter by the way he handled the Dero, Gordon and Tchani issue? This is reminicent of Carver and cunningham. I am not trying to piss people off here, I respect what the RPB do for the club and for the atmosphere at BMO. I realize you guys are forever optimistic but how can an average fan count on this team actually giving them an entertaining product for years to come based on what has happened this year alone?

Good question, and one which will obviously have to be answered by success on the field. There are many like yourself questioning their support of the team and if we aren't entertained soon we will slowly fade away. It's not just TFC we all care about, the common thread is our 'love of the game'. TFC is our vehicle to our hometown game experience. Hopefully we can all enjoy a positive soccer experience from TFC, sooner if not later. I try to put myself in the coach/mgr's shoes and it must be difficult, obviously no mgr wants to lose, so at this point in time I have to believe in the 'pro' who is running the team. I will allow him to put his stamp on the club, and with fingers crossed success or at least entertaining soccer will follow. BUT lets go with the youngsters FFS....Borman, and those who really are not the future stay on the bench.............pleaasee :D

[jloome]

Just to clarify:

Frings has scored remarkable goals, and has been a mainstay in the German attack for many years. His forays into the opposing end are what started many goal scoring chances for that club. Calling him a defensive specialist is simply wrong. He could do it all. Very versatile. So, when you recruit him to play in what amounts to a third tier German or Italian or English league, there is no way millions are spent to watch him play central defense. Sorry, this is just crazy. And yes, he can play defense, or holding mid, or even keeper if he wanted to. That is not the point. He was brought here to set up goals. Period. That is what Winter told us. Yet now the apologists forget this.

Winters told us he would rebuild, and that is why he went after Tchani etc. Remember what he said about this player? Future all star etc. If you are going to convince your fans that a rebuild is necessary than you don't talk through the side of your mouth. Trading Tchani was a sign of desperation by a manager who had no clue what he was doing.

Gordon may be injured, yes, so what. Players get injured all the time. You don't make long term plans around this factor, instead you build a team of solid team around your best players. If Frings brakes a leg on Saturday some of you guys will say we should have traded him cause look, he is injured now.

MLS is a developing league, and not a very good one. You build interesting and winning teams by filling the squad with average to better than average north american players with some international ringers. It is easy really. You draft Cronin. You keep Cronin. You trade for Labrocca, you keep him. You draft Attakora, you keep him. In the end your team wins more than this woeful club is now. How can anybody say things are good when they are last except for Vancouver?

Dude, you can put it in 2,000 words if you like, but this is just reinvention of history. Frings has been a defensive specialist his entire career. Yes, he has a good shot and scores good goals, but he's never been a consistently high goal scorer and I'd be interested in seeing the quote in which Winter allegedly said he was brought here to set up goals.

As for Tchani, he's vastly overrated, which is why NY let him go, why he wasn't starting in Colombus and why he won't really be missed there when he goes on the DL for surgery, which is about to happen.

Nana's got potential but he also has issues, quite evidently, as he's been a total train wreck in San Jose so far.

So, you can argue potential all you want, or that he's making desperation moves, but so far the reality of how those players have performed in every other locale supports the decision.

As for building interest, they've increased the average attendance across the league by over 5,000 fans a game over the last decade and by more than a million in term of professional soccer attendance all told. So something there suggests they're not total fuck ups.

[Shakes McQueen]

You can always trust jloome to come in and start throwing haymakers, haha.

- Scott