PDA

View Full Version : Post game - Chi 2 - Tor 0



Parkdale
08-21-2011, 08:00 PM
herewego

Full stats
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/match?id=314315&cc=5901

mls match center
http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2011-08-21-chicago-fire-vs-toronto-fc/highlights

current standings (hide your eyes)
http://www.mlssoccer.com/standings

Carts
08-21-2011, 08:03 PM
herewego

And there it went... :(

Parkdale
08-21-2011, 08:05 PM
okay... things to note.

Iro was clearly playing for his job and his rep tonight. I thought he improved on the previous games.

that guy 'Oduro' is so fast, he makes Marvel Wynne look like Tom Arnold getting out of a lazy-boy.

LesH
08-21-2011, 08:08 PM
Great, I'm happy , the Reds have another rare win, 2-0 this time. :hump:


Oh wait.....


This wasn't the TFC Reds winning, but.... :facepalm:


but...


but...

Chicago was playing in red. :(


FUCK THIS "deja vu" for the n-th time!

Gazza
08-21-2011, 08:09 PM
okay... things to note.

Iro was clearly playing for his job and his rep tonight. I thought he improved on the previous games.

that guy 'Oduro' is so fast, he makes Marvel Wynne look like Tom Arnold getting out of a lazy-boy.

Iro didn't play too bad. He did let Tom Arnold's Marvel Wynne get position on him for the goal.

My biggest criticism is the line-up. But the schedule has a lot to do with that.

Kudos to Ashton Morgan and Stinson.

flatpicker
08-21-2011, 08:09 PM
meh...

LesH
08-21-2011, 08:10 PM
And there it went... :(


I'm voting this the best comment in the post match thread.
Nobody can beat this.

Other opinions? :drinking:

MartinUtd
08-21-2011, 08:11 PM
At least now there's no questions about what the remainder of this season is about

TFC Bhoy
08-21-2011, 08:13 PM
gotta give gargan credit for saying thanks to the Toronto fans in the post match interview

LesH
08-21-2011, 08:16 PM
Anyways, this game has a HUGE positive to it (and the one and only positive):

Eliminates forever those "can we still make the playoffs? / TFC's make the playoff run" useless threads with all those ridiculous points calculations.

From this moment anyone who still says TFC has some chance to make playoffs this year, well... he must be locked in a nuthouse!

Eastend
08-21-2011, 08:17 PM
Well, we're in a familiar place, last!

Not much Kokic could do on either goals. Another save of the week candidate and he is proving that he is a decent keeper for this league.

Besides that, Stinson played well but I think everyone else was average.

T-boy
08-21-2011, 08:17 PM
okay... things to note.

Iro was clearly playing for his job and his rep tonight. I thought he improved on the previous games.

that guy 'Oduro' is so fast, he makes Marvel Wynne look like Tom Arnold getting out of a lazy-boy.

I thought Iro got worse as the game went on...he kept giving the ball away over and over again! His only plus was that whenever he gave the ball away, he then tackled back. But he wouldn't have needed to do that if he haden't given the ball away 5 seconds earlier!

FluSH
08-21-2011, 08:19 PM
Who released the Gargan?

TorontoPat
08-21-2011, 08:19 PM
gotta give gargan credit for saying thanks to the Toronto fans in the post match interview
Do you think when a player thanks fans of his former team, he is sort of snubbing the management or maybe even the players?

ParadymeTFC
08-21-2011, 08:19 PM
okay... things to note.

Iro was clearly playing for his job and his rep tonight. I thought he improved on the previous games.

that guy 'Oduro' is so fast, he makes Marvel Wynne look like Tom Arnold getting out of a lazy-boy.

You've obviously never placed an ounce of cocaine on a table across the room from Tom Arnold.

Eastend
08-21-2011, 08:19 PM
gotta give gargan credit for saying thanks to the Toronto fans in the post match interview

You stuck around that long?

ManUtd4ever
08-21-2011, 08:20 PM
I actually thought TFC played reasonably well tonight other than the horrible marking on Gargan's goal. Based on the quality of possession and the run of play, TFC could have won the match if not for several missed opportunities including two shots off the woodwork.

JDG, Frings, Stinson, and surprisingly, Iro, all played very solid games tonight. Martina, Sturgis, and Yourassowsky were awful. Everyone else was average.

These MLS matches don't mean much at this point other than to give the players more time to develop a sense of cohesion. Based on the roster decisions, it seemed that Winter made adjustments with Wednesday's match in mind. Nonetheless, it was a disappointing result tonight in a match that was there for the taking.

TorontoPat
08-21-2011, 08:23 PM
posession stats claimed we had the ball about 60% of the time. Our finish just seemed bad or we were unlucky. When we got close we just coughed up the ball or hit the post.

69Chevy396
08-21-2011, 08:23 PM
A question one might ask: If TFC had a seasoned MLS manager, with a proven winning record, would we be playing a 3-4-3 ? Doubt it very much. Tactics now and not lack of quality is what is killing this team. Losing to Chicago, one of the worst teams in the league is not something to celebrate. Other teams in this league are not standing still. Winter needs to go, or learn to compete.

ag futbol
08-21-2011, 08:24 PM
Ok MLS is dead (as if we didn't know that). As for CCL, I don't understand how anybody could think we stand a chance there based on our form.

From now until the end of this year I just want to see a competitive side start to take shape and take more points than it has previously.

This goes down as the worst result of the year thus far. Chicago is a terrible team with a leaky defense and we should have done a lot better.

ArmenJBX
08-21-2011, 08:25 PM
A question one might ask: If TFC had a seasoned MLS manager, with a proven winning record, would we be playing a 3-4-3 ? Doubt it very much. Tactics now and not lack of quality is what is killing this team. Losing to Chicago, one of the worst teams in the league is not something to celebrate. Other teams in this league are not standing still. Winter needs to go, or learn to compete.

That's all I needed to hear.
If we start calling for Winter's head now, TFC is going to continue its self-destructive cycle.

Give the man some actual time. Champions are not born. They are made.

Gazza
08-21-2011, 08:28 PM
A question one might ask: If TFC had a seasoned MLS manager, with a proven winning record, would we be playing a 3-4-3 ? Doubt it very much. Tactics now and not lack of quality is what is killing this team. Losing to Chicago, one of the worst teams in the league is not something to celebrate. Other teams in this league are not standing still. Winter needs to go, or learn to compete.

Off with his head! And replace him with the next Goat! My kingdom for a goat!

redcard
08-21-2011, 08:29 PM
That's all I needed to hear.
If we start calling for Winter's head now, TFC is going to continue its self-destructive cycle.

Give the man some actual time. Champions are not born. They are made.

Amen!

AlanO
08-21-2011, 08:29 PM
A question one might ask: If TFC had a seasoned MLS manager, with a proven winning record, would we be playing a 3-4-3 ? Doubt it very much. Tactics now and not lack of quality is what is killing this team. Losing to Chicago, one of the worst teams in the league is not something to celebrate. Other teams in this league are not standing still. Winter needs to go, or learn to compete.
With our current group of defenders, it doesn't really matter whether we play three or four at the back. We're going to give up goals.

We have some decent midfielders though. Might as well play 3-4-3 and try to control the centre of the field.

69Chevy396
08-21-2011, 08:30 PM
That's all I needed to hear.
If we start calling for Winter's head now, TFC is going to continue its self-destructive cycle.

Give the man some actual time. Champions are not born. They are made.
Mourinho wins wherever he goes. A great manager is needed and Winter playing that stupid 3-4-3 is not a great manager. Doesn't he watch the other teams in this league? Nobody plays 3-4-3 because it is a losing formula. Either he is an arrogant bastard, or stubborn, or plain stupid. He goes out and signs one the best German players of all time, and puts him in as a central defender. If the team played even a 4-5-1 they would allow fewer goals than this horrible team does now. Just check the stats, this team may go down as the worst ever in mls history for giving up so many fucking goals, and they play a 3 man defence....ugh

Troll
08-21-2011, 08:32 PM
I was going to start the "Will Dan Gargan Celebrate if he scores against us?" thread... But I didn't want to be called a troll.

Don't I feel silly...

Gazza
08-21-2011, 08:32 PM
Mourinho wins wherever he goes. A great manager is needed and Winter playing that stupid 3-4-3 is not a great manager. Doesn't he watch the other teams in this league? Nobody plays 3-4-3 because it is a losing formula. Either he is an arrogant bastard, or stubborn, or plain stupid. He goes out and signs one the best German players of all time, and puts him in as a central defender. If the team played even a 4-5-1 they would allow fewer goals than this horrible team does now. Just check the stats, this team may go down as the worst ever in mls history for giving up so many fucking goals, and they play a 3 man defence....ugh

Last time i checked Guardiola owns La Liga and Champion's League Crowns from last year, not Mourinho. Winter has won a Canadian Championship. Can't say he hasn't won where he's gone.

Heathen
08-21-2011, 08:35 PM
I don't think 2-0 was a fair reflection of the game, not saying we deserved a win necessarily but a goal would've been just. I can't see what tonight taught Winter that the rest of us didn't already know, ie. that there's nothing to be gained from playing Borman, Yourassowsky and Martina when we have kids who seemingly can do as good a job and who will benefit from the experience.

69Chevy396
08-21-2011, 08:35 PM
Really. Mourhino would take this team and win the mls cup in two seasons. There is a lot of parity in mls, but a team that loses all the time playing the same tactic, will continue to lose all the time until they stop doing it. Very easy really. play 3-4-3 and lose.

TorontoPat
08-21-2011, 08:40 PM
Iro didn't play too bad. He did let Tom Arnold's Marvel Wynne get position on him for the goal.

My biggest criticism is the line-up. But the schedule has a lot to do with that.

Kudos to Ashton Morgan and Stinson.
That was a great tackle where he took the ball away from....?Whomever that player was:noidea:

Troll
08-21-2011, 08:40 PM
Really. Mourhino would take this team and win the mls cup in two seasons. There is a lot of parity in mls, but a team that loses all the time playing the same tactic, will continue to lose all the time until they stop doing it. Very easy really. play 3-4-3 and lose.


How would you argue against The Special One's own words:


“It is omelettes and eggs. No eggs – no omelettes! It depends on the quality of the eggs. In the supermarket you have class one, two or class three eggs and some are more expensive than others and some give you better omelettes. So when the class one eggs are in Waitrose and you cannot go there, you have a problem”

I don't think we have class 7 eggs, bro.

cherono
08-21-2011, 08:42 PM
Really. Mourhino would take this team and win the mls cup in two seasons. There is a lot of parity in mls, but a team that loses all the time playing the same tactic, will continue to lose all the time until they stop doing it. Very easy really. play 3-4-3 and lose.

Worryingly, that's becoming less true; the good teams are getting better. LA's kicking ass already and they buy Robbie Keane. I'm all for "staying the course", but it's going to take a hell of a lot to get this squad to be a legitimate contender.

TorontoPat
08-21-2011, 08:43 PM
Really. Mourhino would take this team and win the mls cup in two seasons. There is a lot of parity in mls, but a team that loses all the time playing the same tactic, will continue to lose all the time until they stop doing it. Very easy really. play 3-4-3 and lose.
Einstein said it best.
The definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

69Chevy396
08-21-2011, 08:46 PM
Einstein said it best.
The definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Einstein would have dumped his season tickets by now:scarf:

Jeff s
08-21-2011, 08:46 PM
Winter takes out DeGuz despite being the best player imo. As soon as he was subbed off, we had no control of the game.

Iro continues to start. He doesn't call up players like Soolsma due to "poor performances" but continues to start Iro.

Henry not even on the bench is a worrying sign.

Plata has been awful in the last 2 games.

Eckersley has been awful for the past month or 2. He doesn't make the runs anymore and his positioning has been frighting. At this rate I hope he doesn't stay.

Jeff s
08-21-2011, 08:47 PM
Doesn't matter how many good players we have, if the coach doesn't play them properly or reward the bad players with a starting position.

mclaren
08-21-2011, 08:49 PM
How would you argue against The Special One's own words:



I don't think we have class 7 eggs, bro.

I know we're bad, but no need to yolk about it.

TorontoPat
08-21-2011, 08:50 PM
Maybe the boys are feeling the pressure to produce, I think they are all trying out there, I can't point to a single player that seems to be just going through the motions.

Heathen
08-21-2011, 08:51 PM
That's all I needed to hear.
If we start calling for Winter's head now, TFC is going to continue its self-destructive cycle.

Give the man some actual time. Champions are not born. They are made.

There's a difference between calling for his head and believing that the coach has not met expectations. I'm prepared to give him time but don't try and convince me that, based solely on his coaching and not results, Winter hasn't had a disappointing season up to this point.

TFC USA
08-21-2011, 08:51 PM
As said by TFC USA (AKA me) in the pre-game thread


I fully expect us to fuck this game up.

So I hope this place doesn't go Section 8 in the event of a defeat.

And during our CCL match:


The way Oduro is tearing up DC United I don't think it would be out of the question for Chicago to kill us.

He just needs to score.


Oduro ripped us apart and we fucked the game up.

This is a bad team and probably only marginally better than Vancouver. Let's drop the happy time of beating of terrible CONCACAF opposition and realize how shit we are on the road in MLS.

69Chevy396
08-21-2011, 08:54 PM
I know we're bad, but no need to yolk about it.
Put Winter in charge of an egg factory and he will change the conveyor belts and machinery so that all the eggs come out faster, but every one will be cracked. Then he will get rid of all the chickens and replace them with pidgeons, and when they make fewer eggs, he will sell the factory and become a soccer manager.

T-boy
08-21-2011, 08:55 PM
Winter takes out DeGuz despite being the best player imo. As soon as he was subbed off, we had no control of the game.

Iro continues to start. He doesn't call up players like Soolsma due to "poor performances" but continues to start Iro.

Henry not even on the bench is a worrying sign.

Plata has been awful in the last 2 games.

Eckersley has been awful for the past month or 2. He doesn't make the runs anymore and his positioning has been frighting. At this rate I hope he doesn't stay.

To be fair to Eckersley, he's been asked to play at centre back for a few games, and now the third of a back three (which IMO is an awful tactic and playing it away is pretty much game suicide against MLS opponents!) so he has probably been "told" to sit with the back 4 (now 3) a lot more than earlier in the season. In a back three Eckerlsey is no longer a wing back, or can no longer make penetrating runs forward, so I'm sure he's as frustrated as us supporters in this roll. So, I wouldn't say Eckersley is in bad form lately, but just playing in a weird/bad formation for him.

Jack
08-21-2011, 08:57 PM
Mourinho wins wherever he goes. A great manager is needed and Winter playing that stupid 3-4-3 is not a great manager. Doesn't he watch the other teams in this league? Nobody plays 3-4-3 because it is a losing formula. Either he is an arrogant bastard, or stubborn, or plain stupid. He goes out and signs one the best German players of all time, and puts him in as a central defender. If the team played even a 4-5-1 they would allow fewer goals than this horrible team does now. Just check the stats, this team may go down as the worst ever in mls history for giving up so many fucking goals, and they play a 3 man defence....ugh

He had been playing a 4-3-3 for most of the year, then, a few weeks ago, he went to the adjusted 3-4-3 during what was our most successful stretch of the season between cup and league matches, including a win over one of the best teams in MLS. So I am not surprised that he stuck to what had started to get some results. He has stuck to the system he put in place and is working on getting the players to play it. A 4-5-1 is just a variant on the 4-3-3 system, anyway.

I'm not calling for his head, though I'm not happy with the results, either. I just don't agree that axing him now is going to help our team at all.

69Chevy396
08-21-2011, 09:01 PM
He had been playing a 4-3-3 for most of the year, then, a few weeks ago, he went to the adjusted 3-4-3 during what was our most successful stretch of the season between cup and league matches, including a win over one of the best teams in MLS. So I am not surprised that he stuck to what had started to get some results. He has stuck to the system he put in place and is working on getting the players to play it. A 4-5-1 is just a variant on the 4-3-3 system, anyway.

I'm not calling for his head, though I'm not happy with the results, either. I just don't agree that axing him now is going to help our team at all.
It is just very frustrating. With all the changes Winter has made one would expect the team to improve to at least average from the mediocrity that has characterized this squad for five years. A team with Fring on it should not lose 2 nil to a horrible team like chicago.

Yohan
08-21-2011, 09:01 PM
Mad props to dasan robinson and i think it was stinson who came to away section to show appreciation. Few other players clapped.

Alixir
08-21-2011, 09:02 PM
you know your team is pants when ____________

THA BUTCHA
08-21-2011, 09:10 PM
gotta give gargan credit for saying thanks to the Toronto fans in the post match interview

Pfft. I don't care. He is still shit. Always was.

DaBandit
08-21-2011, 09:10 PM
Maybe the boys are feeling the pressure to produce, I think they are all trying out there, I can't point to a single player that seems to be just going through the motions.

Martina comes to mind, but after that I think the boyz are putting in the effort.. They were a little unlucky tonight, but at the end of the day good teams beat teams like the fire. We're just not a good team yet..

Parkdale
08-21-2011, 09:11 PM
Really. Mourhino would take this team and win the mls cup in two seasons.


OR he'd be so frustrated at having to deal with MLS regulations, a team far beneath his usual level, and the much longer travel schedule..... that he'd balk in the first year. It would be like Carver, but worse.

THA BUTCHA
08-21-2011, 09:11 PM
Mad props to dasan robinson and i think it was stinson who came to away section to show appreciation. Few other players clapped.

Who cares. We lost

mclaren
08-21-2011, 09:12 PM
Mad props to dasan robinson and i think it was stinson who came to away section to show appreciation. Few other players clapped.

Dasan Robinson eh? Another player I just learned we have lol.

Parkdale
08-21-2011, 09:15 PM
Who cares. We lost


it's good for the people who are there. Those guys went to Chicago on a school night for this club. Clapping is the least they can do.

Brooker
08-21-2011, 09:16 PM
I have to laugh or else I'd cry. Dan Gargan continuing to help put the final nails in our coffin... and this time on another team. Jesus fucking WEPT!

Fire fire fire ifriefireif ireifire fire fire ifeireif rfire ifre ifrei

The most entertaining part of this game was my realization that the word Fire contains the name Frei.

THA BUTCHA
08-21-2011, 09:19 PM
it's good for the people who are there. Those guys went to Chicago on a school night for this club. Clapping is the least they can do.

Sorry parky but I think the least they could do is put In a better effort.

We will agree to disagree

[NBF]
08-21-2011, 09:19 PM
Mourinho wins wherever he goes. A great manager is needed and Winter playing that stupid 3-4-3 is not a great manager. Doesn't he watch the other teams in this league? Nobody plays 3-4-3 because it is a losing formula. Either he is an arrogant bastard, or stubborn, or plain stupid. He goes out and signs one the best German players of all time, and puts him in as a central defender. If the team played even a 4-5-1 they would allow fewer goals than this horrible team does now. Just check the stats, this team may go down as the worst ever in mls history for giving up so many fucking goals, and they play a 3 man defence....ugh

Thats funny you say that considering that Seattle, New England and Houston played a 3-4-3 formation against us, which resulted in wins for them.

LesH
08-21-2011, 09:21 PM
Ok MLS is dead (as if we didn't know that). As for CCL, I don't understand how anybody could think we stand a chance there based on our form.

From now until the end of this year I just want to see a competitive side start to take shape and take more points than it has previously.

This goes down as the worst result of the year thus far. Chicago is a terrible team with a leaky defense and we should have done a lot better.


I disagree with the last paragraph.

The painful truth is that this MLS season TFC was kicked in his balls by so many crap MLS sides that it's almost impossible task to select which is the worst result of the year.

TFCRegina
08-21-2011, 09:23 PM
Missed the match due to family obligations.

Sucks we lost.

billyfly
08-21-2011, 09:29 PM
Gargan. Dan F'ing Gargan.

Oldtimer
08-21-2011, 09:35 PM
Really. Mourhino would take this team and win the mls cup in two seasons. There is a lot of parity in mls, but a team that loses all the time playing the same tactic, will continue to lose all the time until they stop doing it. Very easy really. play 3-4-3 and lose.

Mourinho isn't coming here, ever.

He wouldn't know how to handle the MLS Journeymen type players, it takes special skill to mix genius and crap and come out with wins.

I don't think tactics had anything to do with the loss, at all. I'm not sure why you think that Mourinho (or my favourite tactician, Sir Alex) could take this mixture (not untypical of an MLS side) and win. Those guys know how to buy quality players to fill a need and play them. You can't do that in MLS, except for the 3 DPs.

Asking for Winter to be axed based on this loss is just plain retarded.

Oldtimer
08-21-2011, 09:37 PM
By the way, a reality check, from 2002 to 2010, MLS sides outright lost 1/2 of their road games, and tied another 1/4. Anyone expecting TFC to pull off a pile of road wins needed a rude awakening.

TFCDP
08-21-2011, 09:37 PM
Man, thank god for the CCL

PAOK17
08-21-2011, 10:05 PM
Mourinho wins wherever he goes. A great manager is needed and Winter playing that stupid 3-4-3 is not a great manager. Doesn't he watch the other teams in this league? Nobody plays 3-4-3 because it is a losing formula. Either he is an arrogant bastard, or stubborn, or plain stupid. He goes out and signs one the best German players of all time, and puts him in as a central defender. If the team played even a 4-5-1 they would allow fewer goals than this horrible team does now. Just check the stats, this team may go down as the worst ever in mls history for giving up so many fucking goals, and they play a 3 man defence....ugh

So are you saying that had MLSE somehow made a contract offer to Mourinho of a few hundred million (because that's what you'd need to bring him here) and signed him in January of 2011, he'd have TFC winning this year within the same salary cap restrictions? This is the same guy who had Real Madrid, a team stacked with superstars playing ultra defensively against Barcelona and still losing out in the CL. He had a team made of Ronaldo, Pepe, Alonso, Kaka, etc playing what everyone here calls "Preki Ball." So basically, if his team of millions couldn't win last year using the ugliest football strategy despite having the available skill, how would he win with a bottom feeding MLS team? Let's not forget, though he hasn't coached Barcelona yet, Porto, Chelsea, Inter and Real Madrid aren't necessarily the worst teams out there.

Just saying.

manic.street.preacher
08-21-2011, 10:11 PM
just tweeted by @RealDanGargan


Would like to dedicate that goal to Nana, Gordo, @jacob__peterson @dwaynedrosario and El Queso LaBrocca #damnitfeelsgoodtobeagangster #TFC

Detroit_TFC
08-21-2011, 10:22 PM
^ He has a huge ax to grind obviously. He was happier when the team was being run from the dressing room.

It was a frustrating match to watch. We hit the woodwork like 3 or 4 times, besides the shots that went wide, so there was some attack. Ecks looked good to me. Chicago looked awful up close, and we couldn't capitalize on it. Taking out JDG was disruptive, I'd have to call that a serious error.

We had a lot of TFC supporters at the game, props to them. Wish I didn't take the wrong train and get there late, missed the first Chicago goal.

Beach_Red
08-21-2011, 10:22 PM
Mourinho isn't coming here, ever.

He wouldn't know how to handle the MLS Journeymen type players, it takes special skill to mix genius and crap and come out with wins.

I don't think tactics had anything to do with the loss, at all. I'm not sure why you think that Mourinho (or my favourite tactician, Sir Alex) could take this mixture (not untypical of an MLS side) and win. Those guys know how to buy quality players to fill a need and play them. You can't do that in MLS, except for the 3 DPs.

Asking for Winter to be axed based on this loss is just plain retarded.

Yes, this is it exactly. Finding a way to get wins with such a mixed roster. And it is happening, just not as quickly as we'd like.

Dkolish3
08-21-2011, 10:23 PM
just tweeted by @RealDanGargan

Quote:
Would like to dedicate that goal to Nana, Gordo, @jacob__peterson @dwaynedrosario and El Queso LaBrocca #damnitfeelsgoodtobeagangster #TFC


See I told you guys in the match thread that who would of thought that De Ro would be more of a class act than Gargan. I also went on to say that Gargan should not be so angry towards us I mean we gave him a starting fullback job in Toronto when he was a decent D2 defender for the Islanders and then after an average year promptly gave him a $20,000 to $40,000 raise

TFC USA
08-21-2011, 10:23 PM
By the way, a reality check, from 2002 to 2010, MLS sides outright lost 1/2 of their road games, and tied another 1/4. Anyone expecting TFC to pull off a pile of road wins needed a rude awakening.

Without even looking I bet we have the worst road record in MLS circa 2007 and it's not even close.

Seattle probably has more road wins this season than we do in our existence.

menefreghista
08-21-2011, 10:30 PM
Asking for Winter to be axed based on this loss is just plain retarded.

How about judging him on 27 games?

At what point do we decide this guy is out of his element?

nickio
08-21-2011, 10:44 PM
As usual, there are overeactions after wins and losses.

In reality, this wasn't a disaster, and it wasn't good.

JDG coming close to scoring twice is really telling me something.

Johnson hitting the upright was unfortunate.

Missing DK is obviously a big loss, considering how many defenders he would draw to himself even on his quiet nights.

Dan Gargan scoring, well shit- that's just our luck this season.

This just means that the guys have to work harder. We have something to build on- let's keep it going.

The worst thing to do is fire Winter, because that would mean that next season is a COMPLETE write-off.

If Winter stays- well no one knows what would happen if he did... hasn't been done before. But I bet our team could only improve, if not significantly so.

Final note:

-Yourassowky was just awful
-Sturgis did exactly what expected - NOTHING
-Iro played well defensively, but very poorly on the ball
-Borman was nothing special, and he will never be anything more than a depth player on this team.

Voodooman
08-21-2011, 10:52 PM
Gargan would score against us...whats with former players always doing well vs any Toronto team

TFCRegina
08-21-2011, 11:18 PM
Quote:
Would like to dedicate that goal to Nana, Gordo, @jacob__peterson @dwaynedrosario and El Queso LaBrocca #damnitfeelsgoodtobeagangster #TFC


See I told you guys in the match thread that who would of thought that De Ro would be more of a class act than Gargan. I also went on to say that Gargan should not be so angry towards us I mean we gave him a starting fullback job in Toronto when he was a decent D2 defender for the Islanders and then after an average year promptly gave him a $20,000 to $40,000 raise

Us?

Since when do you, or I, or anyone else represent the front office?

Gargan's comment, like so many other players, has been directed at the people running the show.

TFC1154ever
08-21-2011, 11:31 PM
Anyone notice that JDG is shooting the ball more? After his first goal this year, he has thrown more balls at net, which i think is a good thing. Yea, he skys them pretty bad sometimes but, he actually has a decent shot from time to time.

Blowing Bubbles
08-21-2011, 11:47 PM
Really. Mourhino would take this team and win the mls cup in two seasons. There is a lot of parity in mls, but a team that loses all the time playing the same tactic, will continue to lose all the time until they stop doing it. Very easy really. play 3-4-3 and lose.


Mourinho is not walking through that door. Guardiola is not walking through that door. Whiskeynose Ferguson is not walking through that door.

Why do we always have to Eurotard threads when trying to use examples? And the examples are shit anyway as they don't take into account the payrolls of the referenced managers against the median payroll in their league compared to MLS.

Yeah the 343 is a joke but oh well this season was gone a long time ago.

I'm more curious about what players Winter is going to come back with next winter. Cause he sure as fuck knows now that guys like Soolsma and Martina are not gonna cut it. That must've been an eye opener for him. Hopefully he recruits better going into year 2.

nascarguy
08-22-2011, 12:04 AM
I forgot there was a game tonight and it looks like it I did not miss anything.

Yohan
08-22-2011, 12:05 AM
I thought both teams played poorly enough to draw, except Chicago put away their chances and TFC didn't.

TFC is again becoming predictable. All game whoever was on right wing could penetrate down the line, but not cut in, because Chicago knew that TFC can't cross for shit. Very little, if not nothing going down the middle. Marosevic was invisible the entire game it seems. Plata is becoming too easy to mark. Just double team him because TFC does not give enough supporting runs for Plata to make a pass to. Also do not like 3-4-3 because Iro is too slow to play left CB in a 3 man defence, and no supporting runs from full backs to stretch the defence. Too static on wing when TFC is not good enough on wing play already

Few positives were Johnson who seemed to be everywhere on offence, except he didn't get much service but his work rate was fantastic. Kocic had a decent game. Stinson needs to learn to cross but he did ok as well.

Well, there goes my unbeaten TFC road trip streak. The frigging white jersey is cursed I tell you. About 50 people made the trip down.

Couchy81
08-22-2011, 12:12 AM
Anyone notice that JDG is shooting the ball more? After his first goal this year, he has thrown more balls at net, which i think is a good thing. Yea, he skys them pretty bad sometimes but, he actually has a decent shot from time to time.

It was just like Robbie Keane said after he scored against SJ, if you don't get a goal when you join a new team it starts messing with your head after a while.

In JDG's case, he had almost 2 years on TFC without a goal, obviously once he got that cracker in DC his psyche improved in regards to taking the shot when the opportunity arose, and unlike before he had some confidence that it would go in. So close to a 3rd in all comp's on the year tonight.

nascarguy
08-22-2011, 12:16 AM
Quote:
Would like to dedicate that goal to Nana, Gordo, @jacob__peterson @dwaynedrosario and El Queso LaBrocca #damnitfeelsgoodtobeagangster #TFC


I also went on to say that Gargan should not be so angry towards us
he is not mad at the supporter or the players he just getting some pay back from the dumb ass FO & mlse.

nascarguy
08-22-2011, 12:19 AM
I thought both teams played poorly enough to draw, except Chicago put away their chances and TFC didn't.

TFC is again becoming predictable. All game whoever was on right wing could penetrate down the line, but not cut in, because Chicago knew that TFC can't cross for shit. Very little, if not nothing going down the middle. Marosevic was invisible the entire game it seems. Plata is becoming too easy to mark. Just double team him because TFC does not give enough supporting runs for Plata to make a pass to. Also do not like 3-4-3 because Iro is too slow to play left CB in a 3 man defence, and no supporting runs from full backs to stretch the defence. Too static on wing when TFC is not good enough on wing play already

Few positives were Johnson who seemed to be everywhere on offence, except he didn't get much service but his work rate was fantastic. Kocic had a decent game. Stinson needs to learn to cross but he did ok as well.

Well, there goes my unbeaten TFC road trip streak. The frigging white jersey is cursed I tell you. About 50 people made the trip down.
it's good to hear 50 people made down

Yohan
08-22-2011, 12:43 AM
and why can't TFC be a little more effective on corners? I can't remember last goal that TFC scored off a corner kick.

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 03:48 AM
Bad result for us, though I thought we played well enough to deserve better than a 2-0 scoreline.

We've had a pretty good run the past few weeks. Hopefully we can put this behind us a nothing more than a blip, and continue making progress.

- Scott

123 elite
08-22-2011, 06:18 AM
As usual, there are overeactions after wins and losses.

In reality, this wasn't a disaster, and it wasn't good.

JDG coming close to scoring twice is really telling me something.

Johnson hitting the upright was unfortunate.

Missing DK is obviously a big loss, considering how many defenders he would draw to himself even on his quiet nights.

Dan Gargan scoring, well shit- that's just our luck this season.

This just means that the guys have to work harder. We have something to build on- let's keep it going.

The worst thing to do is fire Winter, because that would mean that next season is a COMPLETE write-off.

If Winter stays- well no one knows what would happen if he did... hasn't been done before. But I bet our team could only improve, if not significantly so.

Final note:

-Yourassowky was just awful
-Sturgis did exactly what expected - NOTHING
-Iro played well defensively, but very poorly on the ball
-Borman was nothing special, and he will never be anything more than a depth player on this team.


As usual there are underreactions after another terrible loss. As usual there are people seeing hope in hitting the post like we are the only MLS club ever to hiit a post in a match or that a multi million dollar DP narrowing the space between the ball and the crossbar is a sign of improvement. How about looking at the league table after a 20+ player turnover.

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 06:27 AM
As usual there are underreactions after another terrible loss. As usual there are people seeing hope in hitting the post like we are the only MLS club ever to hiit a post in a match or that a multi million dollar DP narrowing the space between the ball and the crossbar is a sign of improvement. How about looking at the league table after a 20+ player turnover.

LOL - you're helping make his point about overreacting.

The team has played pretty well the past few weeks, since the latest roster upheaval and DP additions. Let's hope we build on that.

This was a poor loss, but it came after a stretch of improvement. Hopefully they rebound, and continue to improve.

- Scott

123 elite
08-22-2011, 06:39 AM
I guess you see what you want to see. I don't count the CCL games as i don't rate either team we played as being MLS quality by a long stretch. I don't rate qualifying for the CCL as an achievment as our route is pretty much a one game deal. I don't rate our results since mid July because they are NO BETTER than our results in June. We are bottom in the east and have played more games than anyone. Our good players are now beginning to play bad. And our shipped out 'duds' are scoring easily against us. I guess you see what you want to see.

nickio
08-22-2011, 06:44 AM
As usual there are underreactions after another terrible loss. As usual there are people seeing hope in hitting the post like we are the only MLS club ever to hiit a post in a match or that a multi million dollar DP narrowing the space between the ball and the crossbar is a sign of improvement. How about looking at the league table after a 20+ player turnover.

The table wouldn't tell you much. If TFC won only 1 more game, they would be up in 7th spot, instead of last in the East. That's not being entirely objective.

Welcome to reality, TFC is a team that is just now coming out of "pre-season" playing against teams that have been together from the beginning of the season.

I can't imagine it's much different than in business; if you're an organization that is trying to build for the future- you don't drop people like flies as soon as things get rough. You have to be constructive, fair and positive. To be fair to Winter, expecting him to go on a 7 game unbeaten run, at this point, is asking a bit much.

To be fair, we should expect Winter's team to win at least one more game this season, and finish off with a good effort. If a team comes unprepared and in shambles next season, then we can question- but I highly doubt that'll be the case.

TOBOR !
08-22-2011, 06:54 AM
Bright side : at least my Saturday Night wasn't ruined, and I got to enjoy my Sunday afternoon.

123 elite
08-22-2011, 07:13 AM
The table wouldn't tell you much. If TFC won only 1 more game, they would be up in 7th spot, instead of last in the East. That's not being entirely objective.

Welcome to reality, TFC is a team that is just now coming out of "pre-season" playing against teams that have been together from the beginning of the season.

I can't imagine it's much different than in business; if you're an organization that is trying to build for the future- you don't drop people like flies as soon as things get rough. You have to be constructive, fair and positive. To be fair to Winter, expecting him to go on a 7 game unbeaten run, at this point, is asking a bit much.

To be fair, we should expect Winter's team to win at least one more game this season, and finish off with a good effort. If a team comes unprepared and in shambles next season, then we can question- but I highly doubt that'll be the case.

sorry but that is just nonsense. If TFC had won 1 less game or tied one less game or if that Plata goal v RSL had been intercepted etc.... you can go on and on with the what ifs and so can any team that hit the post or gave up a lead against us. The only thing that is definite here are the results. You don't drop people like flies ? You don't trade people like hockey cards. You don't continue to play a formation or players in a formation that clearly are not delivering. We are NOT coming out of preseason at all. That is just utter nonsense. Thats like hitting yourself over the head with a bat after a loss and then blaming a sore head for the loss. We have 3 DPs including 2 that have played at the absolute highest level, we have a had a revolving door of players that have supposedly made us much better... getting rid of the preki and Mo duds that people on here often refer to them as, and yet we can't deal with teams like Chicago, Portland, NEw England and barely scrape by central american pub league teams. Give me some of those rose tinted glasses will you because from my seat i'm really needing something to keep me sitting in it.

maninb
08-22-2011, 07:33 AM
Jeff S Says...."Eckersley has been HORRIBLE for the past 2 months"?????? ARE YOU FRIGGING SERIOUS???

The guy hasn't been his dominant self for the past 2 games...granted....but give your head a shake!!!! He's been our MVP this year (with honourable mention to Frei)....and any of you people saying Winter MUST BE FIRED.....STFU!!!

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 07:34 AM
I guess you see what you want to see. I don't count the CCL games as i don't rate either team we played as being MLS quality by a long stretch. I don't rate qualifying for the CCL as an achievment as our route is pretty much a one game deal. I don't rate our results since mid July because they are NO BETTER than our results in June. We are bottom in the east and have played more games than anyone. Our good players are now beginning to play bad. And our shipped out 'duds' are scoring easily against us. I guess you see what you want to see.

I didn't say anything about July - I said the "last few weeks" which, being August 22nd today, would be a reference to all of August. Your reference to our overall record is also kind of irrelevant, since I said we have looked improved this month - I said nothing about looking great all season. That would be delusional.

Not much I can say if you don't "rate" the CCL competition.

"Our good players are now beginning to play bad" - not much I can say to that, either. Which good players? Frings and Koov have been fine. Johnson was one of our best players again last night. Frei has been out injured. JDG has even scored a couple of goals... finally. We've still got weak links in our lineup that need to be strengthened, but our good players have been pretty consistent since arriving here.

As for our "duds" - we've always had poor luck when it comes to ex-players scoring against us. Ths isn't a new phenomenon.

"You see what you want to see" is just a pointless and insulting dismissal of my point of view, and could logically be equally applied to you.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 07:35 AM
and why can't TFC be a little more effective on corners? I can't remember last goal that TFC scored off a corner kick.

Frings has dramatically improved the quality of service on corners, but I agree we still aren't nearly good enough at actually converting on that service.

- Scott

Pookie
08-22-2011, 07:37 AM
Jeff S Says...."Eckersley has been HORRIBLE for the past 2 months"?????? ARE YOU FRIGGING SERIOUS???

The guy hasn't been his dominant self for the past 2 games...granted....but give your head a shake!!!! He's been our MVP this year (with honourable mention to Frei)....and any of you people saying Winter MUST BE FIRED.....STFU!!!

Some folks will key in on a specific moment and believe that it defines the player's present and future potential.

ag futbol
08-22-2011, 08:00 AM
By the way, a reality check, from 2002 to 2010, MLS sides outright lost 1/2 of their road games, and tied another 1/4. Anyone expecting TFC to pull off a pile of road wins needed a rude awakening.
Any way you want to slice and dice it, this is a disaponiting result.

Here is Chicago's home record for this season (including last night): 2-2-8

Before us they only won once in 11 tries.

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 08:12 AM
Any way you want to slice and dice it, this is a disaponiting result.

Losing is always disappointing, but losing to a poor team even more so, no doubt.

- Scott

Pookie
08-22-2011, 08:22 AM
Nice to see some objectivity entering the conversation regarding Iro, who had a very solid game.

Frings as CB didn't work out so well tonight for a couple of reasons. His pace, relative to the Chicago attack, was exposed a few times tonight. We also miss his creativity in the midfield. I'm sure if he had an opportunity to replay the first Chicago goal again, he'd close his legs.

At some point, we are going to need to give Robinson and Viator a chance to demonstrate whether they are capable and put Frings in his regular spot.

Strong game from Stinson in some ways. Good work rate, good job getting into space. That said, if I'm him and want to stay in the line up, I'm using every free minute this week to work on my crossing.

sully
08-22-2011, 08:41 AM
with chances of playoffs practically nil now how to get motivated to go to remaining league matches now...:(

ManUtd4ever
08-22-2011, 08:42 AM
I think the experiment with Frings at CB needs to end. There are options on the bench in Henry, Robinson, and Harden that may not be ideal, but would allow Frings to do what he does best, which is to play the role of a midfield destroyer and distributor.

Redcoe15
08-22-2011, 08:48 AM
Only saw the last third of the match, but it's a sad one when Dan Gargan scores on you. :(

Well, on to the CCL.

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 08:48 AM
Frings is useful as an occasional fill-in at the back if we are ravaged by injuries, but I agree that using him there as a regular option should stop.

- Scott

TOBOR !
08-22-2011, 08:54 AM
I get the impression that Iro is afraid to overhit his passes such that he reverts to the other extreme and underhits a lot of them. At least that's what I was seeing last night.

kodiakTFC
08-22-2011, 08:54 AM
If our best side isn't on the field against Dallas then I give up.

SirBobSaget
08-22-2011, 09:05 AM
Frings is useful as an occasional fill-in at the back if we are ravaged by injuries, but I agree that using him there as a regular option should stop.

- Scott

It's possible that (according to Paul James on soccer podcast) Frings is being groomed to be a CB as his pace continues to deteriorate.

Pookie
08-22-2011, 09:15 AM
It's possible though his pace was a concerning factor this game and in previous matches.

That said, the storyline on the backline was summed up fairly well on torontofc.com

"Torsten Frings, Richard Eckersley and Andy Iro were defensively astute for Toronto. The trio combined for more than half of Toronto’s tackles, virtually all clearances and won 70% of their duels. They were the only three TFC players with 80 or more touches, while Iro had a game-high five blocks on Chicago players poised to fire on Kocic, who had another acrobatic save Sunday."

They all had a few moments they would like to take back (ie. Frings letting the ball go through his legs on the goal, Eckersley getting beat one on one in the box, Iro's marking on the goal) but overall did a decent job.

I just think that Frings brings an ability to make the midfield dangerous and link to the forwards. As a CB, he is essentially clearing balls and getting the ball up to the midfield. In that way, he is underutilized. With all due respect to Stinson and JDG, I feel that Frings' service would have been markedly more accurate than what they were able to put together last night.

SirBobSaget
08-22-2011, 09:16 AM
What is it with the outgoing players and their negative comments? Does it prove problems with MLSE or that these players are immature/unproffesional? I'm leaning towards problem with the players. Its incredibly shortsighted for someone with very limited career options like Gargan to demonstrate contempt for a former employer, not looked kindly upon by current/future employers no matter how right he may be about MLSE's handling of the club.

I haven't seen anything like this in another top NA League. Either these guys need better handlers or the unprofessionalism is one of the factors why these players haven't developed to the next level.

Pookie
08-22-2011, 09:17 AM
^ First, is "realdangargan" really the real Dan Gargan?

ManUtd4ever
08-22-2011, 09:17 AM
It's possible that (according to Paul James on soccer podcast) Frings is being groomed to be a CB as his pace continues to deteriorate.

If James is right, I'm not sure I agree with that change in philosophy. Frings is a tremendous overall player, and his diminishing pace is his only notable flaw, a flaw that can be exposed when he is the last line of defence.

Wull
08-22-2011, 09:18 AM
It was one of those games that with a little luck we draw. Story of my weekend with Everton hitting the woodwork and missing a sitter too. Also, much credit to Julian who is starting to look like the player everyone has been telling me about for years

Wull
08-22-2011, 09:19 AM
If James is right, I'm not sure I agree with that change in philosophy. Frings is a tremendous overall player, and his diminishing pace is his only notable flaw, a flaw that can be exposed when he is the last line of defence.

A few great midfielders drop back to play sweeper when the legs start to go. Matthaeus being a prime example

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 09:23 AM
I don't see the sense in bringing in an expensive DP midfielder, to try and repurpose him for a different permanent position. You'd be better off looking for a DP CB in the first place.

- Scott

Carts
08-22-2011, 09:26 AM
I don't see the sense in bringing in an expensive DP midfielder, to try and repurpose him for a different permanent position. You'd be better off looking for a DP CB in the first place.

- Scott

100% spot on...

Wull
08-22-2011, 09:45 AM
I don't see the sense in bringing in an expensive DP midfielder, to try and repurpose him for a different permanent position. You'd be better off looking for a DP CB in the first place.

- Scott

I don't disagree, especially as he's been touting the 4-3-3 since he got here. I'm just saying it's not all that unusual to see a midfielder that can pass and tackle drop back to sweeper when the legs start to go

v00d00daddy
08-22-2011, 09:52 AM
The analysis of this game on this board is shocking. Some guys (McCartney, Shakes and many more) seem to be able to take the game thread for what it is.......talk about the actual game we just watched.

Others sit around and wait for TFC to lose and then come on here and say "look at the table...we're shit....fire winter...blah blah blah."

Utterly useless.

Try this little experiment.

Go through this thread and write down the user names of all the people professing to know anything about this game and how good/bad TFC are. Then go the the RSL post game thread and search for their user names and contributions.

Tell you what...I'll save you the time.

Crickets.

Nothing. Most have zero posts in the RSL thread.

You know why? Because it doesn't fit their agendas.

TFC played okay last night. Easily could have gotten a result with a bit more luck (kinda like the luck we had against RSL-LOL)

I thought JDG looked really good. One of his best of the year.

All three guys on the backline struggled at times. Eckersley got turned around several times and I thought he had a terrible game.

Plata was out of it too.

Stinson played well.

Kocic..while it's still early...looks to be more confident in the goal than Frei. A couple times you could see him talking to his defenders and marshalling the back line. No yelling. No panic. Just communicating. It's nice to see.

Martina sucked balls.
Youra was even worse. Last game at BMO I watched as he warmed up. Totally disinterested. I said to a buddy that he looks to be on his last legs with TFC. Here's hoping. LOL

123 elite
08-22-2011, 10:02 AM
^
there's no agenda. It was same old same old last night and the RSL game. They just lucky that time. But you're right. There really isn't any point in commenting anymore.

lerxst
08-22-2011, 10:04 AM
Iro didn't play too bad. He did let Tom Arnold's Marvel Wynne get position on him for the goal.

My biggest criticism is the line-up. But the schedule has a lot to do with that.

Kudos to Ashton Morgan and Stinson.

Iro had too many giveaways and mental lapses (how many times does he need to fall over the ball and lose it before it costs us a goal?). His runs are slow and predictable and he basically telegraphs his passes. Where do those passes end up going? They're generally picked off or the recipient is tackled immediately. He's a liability and needs to go. Just sayin'.

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 10:09 AM
I don't disagree, especially as he's been touting the 4-3-3 since he got here. I'm just saying it's not all that unusual to see a midfielder that can pass and tackle drop back to sweeper when the legs start to go

I'd agree with you completely, if it was a non-DP player on our roster. It just doesn't make sense to open the purse strings on a DP, only to immediately hope that he can smoothly transition to another position.

I think Winter has played Frings at CB, for the sole reason that he doesn't really trust our current available centre-backs to command a three man backline. If that's the case, then he needs to find a CB that he can trust, and sign him.

Frings as a CB should only be an end-of-the-line emergency stopgap.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 10:13 AM
^
there's no agenda. It was same old same old last night and the RSL game. They just lucky that time. But you're right. There really isn't any point in commenting anymore.

So when we lose it's the "same old", when we win it's "lucky", and any success in the CCL is irrelevant. Not a lot of room for positive daylight there.

- Scott

Derko
08-22-2011, 10:16 AM
In a nutshell, as I don't want be drawn into the typical my opinion over your opinion discussion. It was a loss that should have been a win, with some bright spots, but also some utter crap play by TFC!!

And for the armchair managers out in redpatchboys.ca land, My Fifa 2010 XBOX managerial skills are better than your's!!
Just making a joke, so don't take it serious. lol

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 10:17 AM
In a nutshell, as I don't want be drawn into the typical my opinion over your opinion discussion. It was a loss that should have been a win, with some bright spots, but also some utter crap play by TFC!!

And for the armchair managers out in redpatchboys.ca land, My Fifa 2010 XBOX managerial skills are better than your's!!
Just making a joke, so don't take it serious. lol

Oh no you di'int!

- Scott

Carts
08-22-2011, 10:19 AM
The analysis of this game on this board is shocking. Some guys (McCartney, Shakes and many more) seem to be able to take the game thread for what it is.......talk about the actual game we just watched.

Others sit around and wait for TFC to lose and then come on here and say "look at the table...we're shit....fire winter...blah blah blah."

Utterly useless.

Try this little experiment.

Go through this thread and write down the user names of all the people professing to know anything about this game and how good/bad TFC are. Then go the the RSL post game thread and search for their user names and contributions.

Tell you what...I'll save you the time.

Crickets.

Nothing. Most have zero posts in the RSL thread.

You know why? Because it doesn't fit their agendas.

TFC played okay last night. Easily could have gotten a result with a bit more luck (kinda like the luck we had against RSL-LOL)

I thought JDG looked really good. One of his best of the year.

All three guys on the backline struggled at times. Eckersley got turned around several times and I thought he had a terrible game.

Plata was out of it too.

Stinson played well.

Kocic..while it's still early...looks to be more confident in the goal than Frei. A couple times you could see him talking to his defenders and marshalling the back line. No yelling. No panic. Just communicating. It's nice to see.

Martina sucked balls.
Youra was even worse. Last game at BMO I watched as he warmed up. Totally disinterested. I said to a buddy that he looks to be on his last legs with TFC. Here's hoping. LOL

+1...

As for the 'pot-stirring posters' the best thing to do is ignore...

As a mod, I need to see all posts (to ensure rules are followed etc) but people need to remember, you can use the 'Ignore' feature to not even see these posts - or just look past them (which isn't easy b/c they can rile people up easily)...

It can be very frustrating indeed...

As for the game:

Agreed JDG looked very good. I think his sub was simply saving for Wednesday - which (although mad he was taken off at the time) I understand...

Kocic was solid again... Excellent acrobatic save...

Iro was a liability again. Even when he puts together a decent 10-mins, he'll erase that with errant balls, poorly weighted passes, and plays that lead to scoring chances. I think its time maybe for some reserve minutes to build his confidence back up...

Big Ecks did not have a very good game at all. He avoided being victimized by two HUGE giveaways (basically direct passes to Chicago), but still caused everyone to scramble - that can't happen. He'll rebound - bad games happen...

Stintson was excellent until it came to crossing the ball - but to be honest, a picture perfect ball would have landed to nobody with our movement in the final 3rd...

Martina, that was probably your last chance I'm affraid...

We missed DannyK and we missed having Frings playing ahead of the defence, instead of on the backline... I don't think it should be a huge shock, that when we remove a DP, and move another, we aren't perfectly fluid and find the target...

I'm hoping Wednesday night we see DannyK, Frings back up infront of the defence and a similar performance from JDG...

Put those three things together at home, and some other 'improved personal performances' (ie: Plata etc) and we have a shot at getting a CCL result against Dallas...

Couchy81
08-22-2011, 10:19 AM
^
there's no agenda. It was same old same old last night and the RSL game. They just lucky that time. But you're right. There really isn't any point in commenting anymore.

There is definitely some merit to what v00d00 was saying in regards to certain people coming out of the woodwork after TFC loses and saying the same old thing about the standings and Winter that they've been saying since April/May. There has been a decisive absence of posts from those people during the 6 game unbeaten streak we went on. I would not call it a conspiracy, or even an agenda. It is what it is. Some people wallow in misery and negativity.

Canary10
08-22-2011, 10:32 AM
Missed the game unfortunately but looks like I didn't really miss anything. How many games have we played where we controlled possession and played fairly well only to lose? We seem to be cursed.

A few things for me from what I've read about the game. Really curious, and a bit disturbed, about why we continue to use a 3-4-3. It worked well as a particular tactical move for one opponent, but I'm not sure why we're using it regularly now. I'm worried we're slowly abandoning the possession game.

69Chevy396
08-22-2011, 11:04 AM
Mourinho is not walking through that door. Guardiola is not walking through that door. Whiskeynose Ferguson is not walking through that door.

Why do we always have to Eurotard threads when trying to use examples? And the examples are shit anyway as they don't take into account the payrolls of the referenced managers against the median payroll in their league compared to MLS.

Yeah the 343 is a joke but oh well this season was gone a long time ago.

I'm more curious about what players Winter is going to come back with next winter. Cause he sure as fuck knows now that guys like Soolsma and Martina are not gonna cut it. That must've been an eye opener for him. Hopefully he recruits better going into year 2.
The point I am trying to make is that every mls team has roughly the same level of player quality, some stars, lots of average players, some younger talent....same playing field for every team. The teams that do well in mls are the teams that have the best managers. The reference to Mourhino is anagolous to making references to hockey legends like Bowman, or Arbour etc....when you watch or think about great soccer, you cannot dismiss the teams from Europe. it would be like dismissing the nhl if you are in a hockey forum. Chicago is a crap team. They beat TFC because we have crap tactics, strategy. Our players are no different in quality, perhaps even better. Question: How many DPs is it going to take for Winter to win more games than he loses in this league? Not likely we are going to see better players here next year, just different ones. The real difference is in the coaching.

123 elite
08-22-2011, 11:12 AM
^
If after almost an entire season you have performances from Plata, one of our bright lights, like he put in against Tauro then fingers have to be pointed at the coaching. I dont think this team ever goes on the park now thinking it will win. Players clearly dont trust other players inn the team and what we are left with is a fairly good collection of players that perform poorly together

whyalwaysme11
08-22-2011, 11:19 AM
I woke up in sweats this morning at 5AM.
All i remember was that 12 Days Of Community stuff that TFC does.
How we lost to Chicago.
And all the Douche Bags I dont play pick-up with anymore.

69Chevy396
08-22-2011, 11:22 AM
^
If after almost an entire season you have performances from Plata, one of our bright lights, like he put in against Tauro then fingers have to be pointed at the coaching. I dont think this team ever goes on the park now thinking it will win. Players clearly dont trust other players inn the team and what we are left with is a fairly good collection of players that perform poorly together

In past seasons, whenever the team seemed to be nearing a win, they managed to fuck up in the last 15 min. Often, poor sub decisions were to blame. And, in many games, in the interest in "pressuring" the opponents, Carver, Mo etc, would put out a midfielder and use 3 defenders. I recall looking at Brennan's face one game just as this decision was being made. he looked like a guy who just shat himself. Within minutes the other team scored the tying goal, then the winner. You cannot play 3-4-3 in MLS and expect results. It is so pathetic that two of our DPS are now holding defensive positions and we still lose 2-0 to a crap team. Keane comes over here to score goals. And he did, in his first game. That is what a DP is supposed to do. Frings has a ton of offence in his game. So what do we do. Play him as CM. This is fucking crazy. So, we rely on a 19 year old to score our goals, and another rookie to set them up. I am glad I am dropping my tickets, and you guys will be glad to hear the end of my rants, I am sure.:scarf:

Canary10
08-22-2011, 11:51 AM
In past seasons, whenever the team seemed to be nearing a win, they managed to fuck up in the last 15 min. Often, poor sub decisions were to blame. And, in many games, in the interest in "pressuring" the opponents, Carver, Mo etc, would put out a midfielder and use 3 defenders. I recall looking at Brennan's face one game just as this decision was being made. he looked like a guy who just shat himself. Within minutes the other team scored the tying goal, then the winner. You cannot play 3-4-3 in MLS and expect results. It is so pathetic that two of our DPS are now holding defensive positions and we still lose 2-0 to a crap team. Keane comes over here to score goals. And he did, in his first game. That is what a DP is supposed to do. Frings has a ton of offence in his game. So what do we do. Play him as CM. This is fucking crazy. So, we rely on a 19 year old to score our goals, and another rookie to set them up. I am glad I am dropping my tickets, and you guys will be glad to hear the end of my rants, I am sure.:scarf:

Frankly it's idiotic to invoke Jose Mourinho. For one, MLS is light years away from any of the top European leagues. Never in a million years will a manager of that level come to North America. We're really luck a guy of Winter's quality even came here to be honest. Mourinho also can drop $50 million on a player without even blinking.

And Frings playing as central defender: if you haven't noticed we're kind of effed there right now, it's been the only option that has provided stability there, and has tightened things up in the past month. A clean sheet against Salte Lake for example is pretty damn good. It's not where anyone wants Frings to play, including Winter but I don't see a lot of option.

Having said this, I am perplexed why we aren't getting better results. I watched an RSL game and a Seattle Sounders game in the past week and I have to say both teams are shit. There's really little quality there. Slow, prodding, predictable build-ups, and these are supposed to be two of the best teams in MLS? I can see very little difference separating them and the TFC team we now have. It's really puzzling that we're not getting more wins.

Pookie
08-22-2011, 11:52 AM
MLS Chalkboard is an interesting look at the game:

Defenders

Iro
55 Successful Passes
6 Unsuccsessful passes
8 Tackled and Possession Lost
3 Tackles Won
5 Defender Blocks
1 Interception
4 Clearance
7 Recovery

Frings
55 Successful Passes
11 Unsuccsessful passes
11 Tackled and Possession Lost
3 Tackles Won
1 Defender Blocks
4 Interception
4 Clearance
5 Recovery

Eckersley
44 Successful Passes
12 Unsuccsessful passes
14 Tackled and Possession Lost
3 Tackles Won
0 Defender Blocks
3 Interception
3 Clearance
8 Recovery


Midfield

Stinson
33 Successful Passes
19 Unsuccsessful passes
26 Tackled and Possession Lost
2 Tackles Won
9 Unsuccessful Cross
1 Successful Cross
1 Shot on Target
2 Shot off Target
3 Recovery

Borman
32 Successful Passes
15 Unsuccsessful passes
15 Tackled and Possession Lost
0 Tackles Won
9 Unsuccessful Cross
3 Successful Cross
0 Shot on Target
0 Shot off Target
1 Recovery

JDG
30 Successful Passes
3 Unsuccsessful passes
4 Tackled and Possession Lost
3 Tackles Won
0 Unsuccessful Cross
0 Successful Cross
0 Shot on Target
3 Shot off Target
2 Recovery

bah, it's here if you want to look. Got work to do.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2011-08-21-chicago-fire-vs-toronto-fc/chalkboard

Canary10
08-22-2011, 11:58 AM
Interesting stats. That immediately tells me our midfield doesn't get enough of the ball.

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 11:58 AM
My spoon is too big.

- Scott

Pookie
08-22-2011, 12:01 PM
Interesting stats. That immediately tells me our midfield doesn't get enough of the ball.

... and if only 4 of 18 crosses are successful, it is pretty hard to play a game out wide and expect to be able to convert.

CountryoverClub
08-22-2011, 12:02 PM
Our boy JGD looks pretty pretty pretty good these days. Stats say so too

123 elite
08-22-2011, 12:02 PM
Frankly it's idiotic to invoke Jose Mourinho. For one, MLS is light years away from any of the top European leagues. Never in a million years will a manager of that level come to North America. We're really luck a guy of Winter's quality even came here to be honest. Mourinho also can drop $50 million on a player without even blinking.

And Frings playing as central defender: if you haven't noticed we're kind of effed there right now, it's been the only option that has provided stability there, and has tightened things up in the past month. A clean sheet against Salte Lake for example is pretty damn good. It's not where anyone wants Frings to play, including Winter but I don't see a lot of option.

Having said this, I am perplexed why we aren't getting better results. I watched an RSL game and a Seattle Sounders game in the past week and I have to say both teams are shit. There's really little quality there. Slow, prodding, predictable build-ups, and these are supposed to be two of the best teams in MLS? I can see very little difference separating them and the TFC team we now have. It's really puzzling that we're not getting more wins.

I'm not. The main reason is the huge turnaround in players. Players have gone from not knowing their role, to whether in the managers eyes they fit that role, then having their role and team mates changed before being shipped out themselves. Or probably living in fear of it. Their is no constant core in this team. How are they supposed to play as a unit when they don't know who will be on the team week in week out or where they are playing. A good manager would never have a massive turnover of players unless they had massive (as in madrid or man u massive) resources. It just generally doesnt work.

Pookie
08-22-2011, 12:04 PM
Our boy JGD looks pretty pretty pretty good these days. Stats say so too

Iro also had a very decent game as highlighted by the stats. Hopefully, it is a good confidence builder.

LCD Eindhoven
08-22-2011, 12:10 PM
Really. Mourhino would take this team and win the mls cup in two seasons. There is a lot of parity in mls, but a team that loses all the time playing the same tactic, will continue to lose all the time until they stop doing it. Very easy really. play 3-4-3 and lose.

You want Winter's head before 1 season is up. And you say Mourinho would takes us to the mls cup in 2 seasons.

what makes you think posters like you wouldn't want mourinho's head after one year of not making it to the cup like you do now with winter

holy shit!

Canary10
08-22-2011, 12:15 PM
I'm not. The main reason is the huge turnaround in players. Players have gone from not knowing their role, to whether in the managers eyes they fit that role, then having their role and team mates changed before being shipped out themselves. Or probably living in fear of it. Their is no constant core in this team. How are they supposed to play as a unit when they don't know who will be on the team week in week out or where they are playing. A good manager would never have a massive turnover of players unless they had massive (as in madrid or man u massive) resources. It just generally doesnt work.

I'd say it's the opposite. There was clearly no accountability on the pitch with the "old" team. MeRo, Santos, etc floated around and contributed whenever they saw fit which was often 10 minutes or less in a game. And they ruled the team from the dressing room. Now there is a manager with a firm hand on the wheel, a captain in Frings who won't let anyone on his team get away with shit and slacking play. Now players will be yanked in the 46th minute (Martina) if they're not performing. Players should be playing for their place in the lineup every single game and they now are with Winter because they know they'll be subbed if they don't, and there is actually enough quality on the bench behind them now to do it. Where we are at is a real improvement. Hopefully the wins start to come, because even the top of this league is woefully bad.

123 elite
08-22-2011, 12:24 PM
I'd say it's the opposite. There was clearly no accountability on the pitch with the "old" team. MeRo, Santos, etc floated around and contributed whenever they saw fit which was often 10 minutes or less in a game. And they ruled the team from the dressing room. Now there is a manager with a firm hand on the wheel, a captain in Frings who won't let anyone on his team get away with shit and slacking play. Now players will be yanked in the 46th minute (Martina) if they're not performing. Players should be playing for their place in the lineup every single game and they now are with Winter because they know they'll be subbed if they don't, and there is actually enough quality on the bench behind them now to do it. Where we are at is a real improvement. Hopefully the wins start to come, because even the top of this league is woefully bad.

Maybe its somewhere in the middle. For sure Winter has subbed out Santos, Martina etc when not performing. He's often left people on and continued to play them when they are underperforming too. Most recently Iro who is quickly catching up on Garcia for heart stopping moments. As for previous dressing room rule... no idea if thats true. Don't take any comment that refers to dero as mero seriously either. He showed what he's worth a few weeks back. He doesn't need to answer to TFC fans in any otherway than that.

Oldtimer
08-22-2011, 12:26 PM
Our boy JGD looks pretty pretty pretty good these days. Stats say so too

No question about that. He's playing the best he ever has since coming to TFC.

QSIM
08-22-2011, 12:32 PM
I feel that we didn't play all that poorly. We held most of the possession and were the better side on the ball (as the stats prove). However despite our good buildup at time we lacked our spark in the final third. Yes we were missing Koev but I don't know how much Koev could've done with some of the service displayed yesterday, it was terrible. We have our engine in the back, Frings. JDG is proving to be an engine in the midfield, now what will spark us back into attack.

Canary10
08-22-2011, 12:36 PM
Don't take any comment that refers to dero as mero seriously either. He showed what he's worth a few weeks back. He doesn't need to answer to TFC fans in any otherway than that.

He's doing what he does best: playing for himself. His credibility has come under question for being traded from two consecutive teams and now he's trying to show he's still got something.

As for Iro, when someone effs up as badly as him I agree the best sports psychology move is to throw him right back into it. Winter did the same with Kocic. If I remember right, that's what the Vancouver Canuck's did with Luongo. All that move shows me is Winter understands what it's like to be a player (which he should given his own quality as a player).

Thomas
08-22-2011, 12:39 PM
No excuses for this match. It was a very poor result. If the score was close, that would have been one thing, but 2-0 against one of the weakest teams. No, I am no calling for Winter's head nor writing off the potential on this team. Let's hope for a convincing win on Wednesday.

Oldtimer
08-22-2011, 12:39 PM
I feel that we didn't play all that poorly. We held most of the possession and were the better side on the ball (as the stats prove). However despite our good buildup at time we lacked our spark in the final third. Yes we were missing Koev but I don't know how much Koev could've done with some of the service displayed yesterday, it was terrible. We have our engine in the back, Frings. JDG is proving to be an engine in the midfield, now what will spark us back into attack.

Really, it's a sign of desperation to play Frings in back. He should be in mid. but our D is so shaky, I can understand that Winter feels his hand forced.

The off-season will need to show a major revamping of the defense (if JDG leaves, maybe even a DP CB).

Carts
08-22-2011, 12:42 PM
No question about that. He's playing the best he ever has since coming to TFC.

100% agreed...

I've been probably his biggest critic, but I'm not going to try and rag on him when he's playing well to try and "be right"...

He's on his game right now - and we need it...!

Let's hope he stays fit, he knows the CONCACAF game well, and if this improved, excellent play continues - that'll help us immensely in the CCL...

Jeff s
08-22-2011, 12:45 PM
Jeff S Says...."Eckersley has been HORRIBLE for the past 2 months"?????? ARE YOU FRIGGING SERIOUS???

The guy hasn't been his dominant self for the past 2 games...granted....but give your head a shake!!!! He's been our MVP this year (with honourable mention to Frei)....and any of you people saying Winter MUST BE FIRED.....STFU!!!

At the beginning of the season he's been good, but the past month or so, I've noticed just how poor he's been. Defenders are getting by him easier, he's not attacking as much anymore ( even before we changed to 3 defenders but even thats not much an excuse imo because you still see borman/Morgan still going up a lot ) and his positioning has been really lackluster. Heck the first goal last night was also because of his poor positioning. Its been like that for a short while now.

Shakes McQueen
08-22-2011, 12:49 PM
100% agreed...

I've been probably his biggest critic, but I'm not going to try and rag on him when he's playing well to try and "be right"...

He's on his game right now - and we need it...!

Let's hope he stays fit, he knows the CONCACAF game well, and if this improved, excellent play continues - that'll help us immensely in the CCL...

Perhaps the addition of Frings and Koevermans has given him a bit of a spark. It's nice to see him positively contributing (consistently) for the first time in a long while.

Of course, time will tell if this is just a blip, and he return to form (or lack thereof) in a game or two.

- Scott

QSIM
08-22-2011, 01:05 PM
Really, it's a sign of desperation to play Frings in back. He should be in mid. but our D is so shaky, I can understand that Winter feels his hand forced.

The off-season will need to show a major revamping of the defense (if JDG leaves, maybe even a DP CB).

Agreed. Frings should be in the midfield but it looks as of now for the remainder of the season (what's left of it/ CCL). Improvement's are needed in the offseason for the back but I hope someone from the roster now can spark us upfront (i.e. Avila, Griffit)

whyalwaysme11
08-22-2011, 01:21 PM
Our boy JGD looks pretty pretty pretty good these days. Stats say so too


I SECOND THIS ONE.

Derko
08-22-2011, 01:40 PM
I SECOND THIS ONE.


Third this one, for sure

Heathen
08-22-2011, 02:08 PM
At the risk of looking like a bandwagon jumper what with the preceding posts, JDGs performance was definitely a big positive from yesterday.

69Chevy396
08-22-2011, 02:18 PM
Frankly it's idiotic to invoke Jose Mourinho. For one, MLS is light years away from any of the top European leagues. Never in a million years will a manager of that level come to North America. We're really luck a guy of Winter's quality even came here to be honest. Mourinho also can drop $50 million on a player without even blinking.

And Frings playing as central defender: if you haven't noticed we're kind of effed there right now, it's been the only option that has provided stability there, and has tightened things up in the past month. A clean sheet against Salte Lake for example is pretty damn good. It's not where anyone wants Frings to play, including Winter but I don't see a lot of option.

Having said this, I am perplexed why we aren't getting better results. I watched an RSL game and a Seattle Sounders game in the past week and I have to say both teams are shit. There's really little quality there. Slow, prodding, predictable build-ups, and these are supposed to be two of the best teams in MLS? I can see very little difference separating them and the TFC team we now have. It's really puzzling that we're not getting more wins.

Mourhino was an example. You guys are always comparing MLS to other leagues, to the Championship in England. Why did Sven Eriksson join Leicester in that league? He has pretty good credentials too, I would say. We have Keane joining La, Frings joining Toronto. Why must we always have a rookie manager and coach here? Mourhino is at the other end of the pendulum, but Winter has virtually no experience. So we give him a year to make all these changes and still end up in last place. Great. What a club.

69Chevy396
08-22-2011, 02:21 PM
At the risk of looking like a bandwagon jumper what with the preceding posts, JDGs performance was definitely a big positive from yesterday.
He played well. He had Fring backing him up all night. When this is reversed, the way it ought to be, lets see how good he is.

69Chevy396
08-22-2011, 02:24 PM
You want Winter's head before 1 season is up. And you say Mourinho would takes us to the mls cup in 2 seasons.

what makes you think posters like you wouldn't want mourinho's head after one year of not making it to the cup like you do now with winter

holy shit!

Mourhino could take any MLS team and turn it around in two seasons without making one change in player personnel. He is that good, and that is why he would never come here. That is not my point. Instead of Mourhino we have Eddie Shack. Might as well, both Eddie and Winter have the same amount of professional coaching experience.

bgnewf
08-22-2011, 03:06 PM
Gargan Scores - TFC Lose

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/08/gargan-scores-tfc-lose/

In this video blog I take a look back at the Chicago game Sunday evening that saw our Reds lose 2-0 to their Reds. I talk Twitter and Dan Gargan scoring and celebrating. I take another look at the 3-4-3 formation and why I think it is a bit of a waste to use Frings back there, especially against clubs like Chicago who gave TFC a lot of space to operate in the midfield. I try and put into some sort of MLS context the very real possibility of TFC not winning a MLS road game this season and I ask if it is at least possible that FC Dallas might take their foot off the accelerator a little this Wednesday in Champions League action.

Your comments are always welcome and of course appreciated.

Yohan
08-22-2011, 03:08 PM
Mourhino could take any MLS team and turn it around in two seasons without making one change in player personnel. He is that good, and that is why he would never come here. That is not my point. Instead of Mourhino we have Eddie Shack. Might as well, both Eddie and Winter have the same amount of professional coaching experience.
hiring a good foreign coach is harder than getting a good player. why would any manager worth his salt come to MLS when he'd get paid maybe slightly less, but coach a good european team?

plus same repetitive argument about MLS is radically difficult for foreign managers to adapt to, etc
do i have go and list 'big name' european managers who came to MLS and failed again? lol

Canary10
08-22-2011, 03:40 PM
Mourhino was an example. You guys are always comparing MLS to other leagues, to the Championship in England. Why did Sven Eriksson join Leicester in that league? He has pretty good credentials too, I would say. We have Keane joining La, Frings joining Toronto. Why must we always have a rookie manager and coach here? Mourhino is at the other end of the pendulum, but Winter has virtually no experience. So we give him a year to make all these changes and still end up in last place. Great. What a club.

Andre Villas-Boas is a rookie manager. Pep Guardiola is a rookie manager. Being a rookie is hardly an indication of how they'll do. Guardiola actually played at a high level, ironically in the same position as Winter. Being a former player at that level carries a lot of weight with players. I think we're lucky to have gotten a manager like Winter frankly.

You have a pretty delusional view of the MLS if you think any manager with a lot of experience would come here. The MLS is nowhere near European leagues. Leicester CIty has a shot at the Premiership next year, why wouldn't Ericson go there?

Blowing Bubbles
08-22-2011, 05:40 PM
Mourhino was an example. You guys are always comparing MLS to other leagues, to the Championship in England. Why did Sven Eriksson join Leicester in that league? He has pretty good credentials too, I would say. We have Keane joining La, Frings joining Toronto. Why must we always have a rookie manager and coach here? Mourhino is at the other end of the pendulum, but Winter has virtually no experience. So we give him a year to make all these changes and still end up in last place. Great. What a club.

I hate to Eurotard this thread some more but I'll indulge you.

If coaching made as much difference as you say it does, then why doesn't a mid table team in any big 4 league offer Mourinho 40 million a year to coach them?

If a great coach can push a mid table team into the top 3/4, then why spend 100's of millions on transfer fees and wages? Just spend to the median and take a shortcut by paying a massive fee for the so called best manager in the world ........ it would be a hell of a lot more cost effective - and unlike players, the manager isn't going to get injured/drunk in a bar before a game/want a transfer/etc.

rocker
08-22-2011, 05:58 PM
A big Euro coach would have his hands tied by the salary cap. He'd become frustrated because suddenly he couldn't just bring in the players he wants to fix the problems he sees. I actually think most big Euro coaches wouldn't have the patience for MLS.

Yohan
08-22-2011, 06:18 PM
A big Euro coach would have his hands tied by the salary cap. He'd become frustrated because suddenly he couldn't just bring in the players he wants to fix the problems he sees. I actually think most big Euro coaches wouldn't have the patience for MLS.

They dont. Most last a year. Anyone wanna bet if hans backe will get the axe if nyrb doesnt go far in playoffs?

69Chevy396
08-22-2011, 06:32 PM
Andre Villas-Boas is a rookie manager. Pep Guardiola is a rookie manager. Being a rookie is hardly an indication of how they'll do. Guardiola actually played at a high level, ironically in the same position as Winter. Being a former player at that level carries a lot of weight with players. I think we're lucky to have gotten a manager like Winter frankly.

You have a pretty delusional view of the MLS if you think any manager with a lot of experience would come here. The MLS is nowhere near European leagues. Leicester CIty has a shot at the Premiership next year, why wouldn't Ericson go there?

Didn't Guardiola manage the 2nd tier Barcs club for a few years? Forget the reference to Euro mgrs. My point is simple, really. In MlS teams that are successful play similar tactics. The teams that win usually have exp managers. Our biggest complaint for five years has been a lack of winning, a multitude of players, and having one rookie mgr after another. Despite the positive elements in this recent game they still floundered and lost. It seems that game after game an unbiased review will almost always find more positives on the other side of the pitch. After all, talking about TFC in isolation makes little sense. Everything that is commented on should maintain this perspective: they play in a league where most teams are better. Yes JDG played well, but his counterpart on chicago was better

LCD Eindhoven
08-22-2011, 06:40 PM
Mourhino could take any MLS team and turn it around in two seasons without making one change in player personnel. He is that good, and that is why he would never come here. That is not my point. Instead of Mourhino we have Eddie Shack. Might as well, both Eddie and Winter have the same amount of professional coaching experience.

and my point is that after 1 season you would be calling for mourinho's head if we hadn't won - how do I know this? because you are doing it to winter.... who's to say we don't kill it next year? probably won't... but one bad year doesn't mean you chop the coach...

as far as mourinho not needing to change one player and he would win...

hate to tell you - shit is still shit if you put sugar on it... or get sugar to coach it...

Yohan
08-22-2011, 06:46 PM
Guardiola managed barcas reserve team (which does play in lower tiers of spanish league)

All managers gotta start somewhere. Schellas hyndman had no prior mls exp prior to dallas. Last two mls cups have been won by 'rookie' managers gary smith and jason kreis

Nor is an experienced manager a likely blueprint for success. There are clamouring by fans to get rid of guys like nicol, yallop, kinnear whose teams have struggled for years now.

The key is to identify a manager who has the ability to succeed in mls. Im not saying winter is that guy but finding the right manager is not as easy as finding an experienced guy like you propose

torontocelt
08-22-2011, 07:00 PM
I'd say it's the opposite. There was clearly no accountability on the pitch with the "old" team. MeRo, Santos, etc floated around and contributed whenever they saw fit which was often 10 minutes or less in a game.

DeRo used to only contribute for only 10 mins or less per game, yeah alright then...

Oldtimer
08-22-2011, 07:42 PM
Yes JDG played well, but his counterpart on chicago was better

The chalkboard makes a lie of your statement:

Logan Pause:

27 successful pass
6 unsuccessful pass
(33 attempts, 81% successful)
6 tackled and possession lost

JDG:

30 successful pass
3 unsuccessful pass
(33 attempts, 90% successful)
4 tackled and possession lost

JDG had a better game.

Carts
08-22-2011, 07:52 PM
The chalkboard makes a lie of your statement:

Logan Pause:

27 successful pass
6 unsuccessful pass
(33 attempts, 81% successful)
6 tackled and possession lost

JDG:

30 successful pass
3 unsuccessful pass
(33 attempts, 90% successful)
4 tackled and possession lost

JDG had a better game.

Before I say anything, JDG was EXCELLENT last night - probably our best player...

BUT...

Stats do not tell the entire story on who played better in a game...

They are useful, they are a excellent tool, but they are not everything...

There are variables in actual games that you don't see in stats... Clutch plays, making something out of nothing, tracking back and breaking up a play by your presence (even if you don't acquire 'that notch' on your chalkboard card)...

69Chevy396
08-22-2011, 07:53 PM
The chalkboard makes a lie of your statement:

Logan Pause:

27 successful pass
6 unsuccessful pass
(33 attempts, 81% successful)
6 tackled and possession lost

JDG:

30 successful pass
3 unsuccessful pass
(33 attempts, 90% successful)
4 tackled and possession lost

JDG had a better game.

These stats are amusing. I realize they must hold some meaning, for some things. But Jesus. This is rich. Where in this data are the qualitative measurements. The number of passes means nothing if the other team makes more of their time on the ball. Other team wins, that is the only meaningful stat at the end of the game. This is not baseball where an individual player stats have significance. A team game like soccer render these stats a little redundant.

123 elite
08-22-2011, 08:01 PM
The chalkboard makes a lie of your statement:

Logan Pause:

27 successful pass
6 unsuccessful pass
(33 attempts, 81% successful)
6 tackled and possession lost

JDG:

30 successful pass
3 unsuccessful pass
(33 attempts, 90% successful)
4 tackled and possession lost

JDG had a better game.


Quoting this kind of stuff is a really north american thing. It means nothing. Its like looking at the box office receipts after the weekend and using that to determine what is a good movie. JDG could pass across the backline 600 times in a game to Ecks and that would give you at stat. A stat that means nothing. What counts is how a team performs. That is reflected by results. Not posts hit, passes completed, interceptions made. Strength on the field, the ability to worry an opposition & adaptibility are things that will win you games and can't be measured by stats.

69Chevy396
08-22-2011, 08:20 PM
Quoting this kind of stuff is a really north american thing. It means nothing. Its like looking at the box office receipts after the weekend and using that to determine what is a good movie. JDG could pass across the backline 600 times in a game to Ecks and that would give you at stat. A stat that means nothing. What counts is how a team performs. That is reflected by results. Not posts hit, passes completed, interceptions made. Strength on the field, the ability to worry an opposition & adaptibility are things that will win you games and can't be measured by stats.
I don't necessarily blame others for looking for any positive they can in a bleak season like this has been for us. These stats may give some indication of a players level of involvement, similar I suppose to measuring the number of miles a guy runs in the game. Amusing stuff but not significant. Another stat which may be added however, is the other guy's 81 percent efficiency at a million less per season. Frings to jdg to frings to jdg to frings......two DPs playing most of the game in the wrong end of the pitch. When jdg is making long shots on net you know something isn't right with this team.

Canary10
08-22-2011, 08:22 PM
Quoting this kind of stuff is a really north american thing. It means nothing. Its like looking at the box office receipts after the weekend and using that to determine what is a good movie. JDG could pass across the backline 600 times in a game to Ecks and that would give you at stat. A stat that means nothing. What counts is how a team performs. That is reflected by results. Not posts hit, passes completed, interceptions made. Strength on the field, the ability to worry an opposition & adaptibility are things that will win you games and can't be measured by stats.

Actually teams that pass well, hold possession more and make other teams adapt to THEM win more. Not every time. But most of the time.

I do agree to some extent with the Winter criticizers though. There really isn't much seperating the quality of the top few teams from TFC. Really, a good coach and a well organized team should be getting better results, especially now that the self-centred players have been dealt away. This is a better team than what we had in April and results should be showing that.

69Chevy396
08-22-2011, 08:32 PM
Actually teams that pass well, hold possession more and make other teams adapt to THEM win more. Not every time. But most of the time.

I do agree to some extent with the Winter criticizers though. There really isn't much seperating the quality of the top few teams from TFC. Really, a good coach and a well organized team should be getting better results, especially now that the self-centred players have been dealt away. This is a better team than what we had in April and results should be showing that.
It is unrealistic to expect much further change in player personnel next season. Perhaps a player or two, perhaps a defender to replace jdg, hard to say. So your contention is both accurate and scary. If Winter cannot win with this team that he has assembled, how will adding another player or two make a difference? It is not like he will be signing 10 DPs. We will likely lose at least two or three players in the off season, so it is left to the tactics and coaching ability of Winter to make this team click as a unit. He has had more than enough time to make some improvement here. The wins against the lower level CCL team was good, but that loss to Chicago brought everything back to the surface. Other teams in this league are simply better prepared, and better able to stop whatever it is that Winter is trying to do with a 3 man defence. I could do a better job instantly. I would move Frings to CM. Put jdg on defence, pairing him with at least three others. And, if the team scores and manages to take a lead into the second half, I would put 5 on the back, 4 mids, and one striker. Done, my team wins more games. :)

123 elite
08-22-2011, 08:53 PM
^

this is true. The sad fact is that winter has played his cards now. Any further trading of players beyond one or two would render most of his aquisitions this year pointless and a waste of time. Pretty much all he is left with now is luck and the falling apart of the rest of the league. The latter isnt going to happen. I don't think its a good idea that he leaves. Despite everything i believe he needs another season but i just dont see where he can go. What you said is bang on regarding frings and the formation. Half the stadium could make that call. Perhaps he doesnt want to be seen to back down from his vision or system or whatever you call it but i feel that our team is being dragged into the gutter because of it and i actually wonder if there will even be a team in the years to come. I admire a lot of the positive attitude on this board but i don't sit with the south stand where most of it comes from. Where i sit is getting emptier and emptier. And that is becoming the same in about 80% of the stadium. The CCL means nothing. At least at the stage we are at. MLS is a true reflection of how good we are. Not beating some Central american team with no fans and a terrible park and a bought ref. Our season is 4 wins. And we are not getting any better.

Oldtimer
08-22-2011, 09:07 PM
These stats are amusing. I realize they must hold some meaning, for some things. But Jesus. This is rich. Where in this data are the qualitative measurements. The number of passes means nothing if the other team makes more of their time on the ball. Other team wins, that is the only meaningful stat at the end of the game. This is not baseball where an individual player stats have significance. A team game like soccer render these stats a little redundant.

Let's go with the subjective then. The FAN590 seemed to hink that TFC played much better with JDG on than not.

Auzzy
08-22-2011, 09:10 PM
This thread and ^ some of those posts are so full of LOL, I don't know where to start. Better I don't try, it's just not worth it.

We shall see I guess. I'm not expecting much, but I'm also not saying suicide.

Oldtimer
08-22-2011, 09:12 PM
^

this is true. The sad fact is that winter has played his cards now. Any further trading of players beyond one or two would render most of his aquisitions this year pointless and a waste of time. Pretty much all

This is the post-game thread, not the Winter approval thread. I think you accidentally posted in the wrong thread. ;)

BTW, probably 90%+ of this board would disagree with you... almost all the comments I read relate to the further moves Winter needs to do to shore up the backline, etc. A lot of what he's been forced to do are stopgap measures, not his "dream team."


^

And we are not getting any better.

I happen to see quite a difference from the first half of the season.

123 elite
08-22-2011, 10:11 PM
^

me too. Instead of conceding 6 s and 4s its now 3s and 2s.

brad
08-22-2011, 10:16 PM
^

me too. Instead of conceding 6 s and 4s its now 3s and 2s.

There is also the small matter of 4 wins, two draws and no losses in the 6 games prior to this one. But hey, some of those teams were weaker so that doesn't count, right?

Pookie
08-23-2011, 06:39 AM
Quoting this kind of stuff is a really north american thing. It means nothing. Its like looking at the box office receipts after the weekend and using that to determine what is a good movie. JDG could pass across the backline 600 times in a game to Ecks and that would give you at stat. A stat that means nothing. What counts is how a team performs. That is reflected by results. Not posts hit, passes completed, interceptions made. Strength on the field, the ability to worry an opposition & adaptibility are things that will win you games and can't be measured by stats.

In presenting the stats, I'm not sure anyone is taking the opinion that they tell 100% of the story.

However, over time, they tell most of the story. Your box office example is a good one. Over time, good movies will produce good results at the box office. Bad movies won't.

How do scouts evaluate talent? Think they use numbers in their evaluations? Things like a player's speed, size, strength, vertical? Do they ever use a "save percentage" to evaluate a keeper? I'd be shocked if the best teams in the world didn't use statistics like the chalkboard to evaluate their team and individual performances and plan for upcoming matches.

Successful players in all sports, team and individual are judged by their statistics at the end of the day. In hockey, it's why a player like Wayne Gretzky makes the Hall of Fame and why a fan favourite (my own personal favourite) who could get in based on popularity and subjectivity, Wendel Clark, doesn't.

On a game by game basis, you might find a time when Wendel outplayed Wayne. Overtime though, the stats would favour Gretzky.

So, yes, Iro's 5 defensive blocks might not tell the whole story but to someone claiming him to be a liability, it is a significant, OBJECTIVE counterpoint and definitely has a place in the post game discussion.

69Chevy396
08-23-2011, 07:48 AM
They dont. Most last a year. Anyone wanna bet if hans backe will get the axe if nyrb doesnt go far in playoffs?

Ok, forget the big name euro coach. Why do we settle for a no-name euro coach instead, particularly after another one before him bit the dust (carver). If the team is going to hire rookie managers, at least hire one with proven North American experience, as a coach (unlike Mo), not as a player. Lots of American Universities to look at. Some men with brains, and knowledge of the North American game.

Frankly, the game against Chicago (as this is a post game thread still), exposes a lot of the rookie mistakes Winter keeps making. Playing Frings as a defender is a joke. What good can possibly come of this when despite his presence, they still manage to lose 2-0? At least, when he plays up front, we get to watch a skilled midfielder who can make something happen, instead, we have two rookies counted on to create a goal. Last time I checked you win soccer by scoring more goals than the other team.

Wull
08-23-2011, 08:01 AM
the last time I checked, we played half-decent and shoulda/woulda/coulda had a draw against a team a hell of a lot fresher than we are, ending a 6 game unbeaten streak. I really have no idea how some of you expect everything to be fixed within a season. The team may have been semi-decent last season but the club was an absolute shambles. It takes time and patience to sort that out.

At the beginning of this year everyone said they'd give Winter at least a season and take it from there. We're nowhere near done a season and the lynch mob are out again. I was one of the first calling for mo and preki to go, I got what I wanted and I promised them time in return. it's my turn to keep that promise. They have the off-season to sort out the back line. After that all bets are off.

v00d00daddy
08-23-2011, 08:46 AM
^

me too. Instead of conceding 6 s and 4s its now 3s and 2s.

Piece of advice.

If you want people to take your "analysis" seriously maybe you should try posting your opinion when we beat one of the best teams in the league like we did recently.

Saying all this shit post loss screams that you have a pre conceived notion of what TFC is and will always be and you sit and wait for the appropriate result to back up your opinion.

Have some balls and argue your points after they play well.

You may not get any more people agreeing with you but at least people might believe you.

Btw..I agree with you that looking at stats to prove a point is misleading and, imo, useless.

Just like looking at the table as an indicator of whats in store for a teams future.

Looking at the standings and saying..."we're not gonna be good" is pure idiocy.

Progress is not a black and White thing. You don't go from horrible to great in one game. You build...you eliminate mistakes...you learn to play together...you train...and then you gradually start to see better results. Hopefully, you eventually see great results.

If you dont see progress that's your opinion. Fair enough....but if you expect me to believe that we're not getting better because you say so and our record proves you right...well sorry....it's not gonna happen.

Beach_Red
08-23-2011, 08:54 AM
Ok, forget the big name euro coach. Why do we settle for a no-name euro coach instead, particularly after another one before him bit the dust (carver). If the team is going to hire rookie managers, at least hire one with proven North American experience, as a coach (unlike Mo), not as a player. Lots of American Universities to look at. Some men with brains, and knowledge of the North American game.

Frankly, the game against Chicago (as this is a post game thread still), exposes a lot of the rookie mistakes Winter keeps making. Playing Frings as a defender is a joke. What good can possibly come of this when despite his presence, they still manage to lose 2-0? At least, when he plays up front, we get to watch a skilled midfielder who can make something happen, instead, we have two rookies counted on to create a goal. Last time I checked you win soccer by scoring more goals than the other team.

This is a very old argument around here. I'm not saying it's invalid, but it's done. This organization, for whatever reason, didn't want someone running the soccer team who had a proven track record. They wanted rookies (maybe rookies are easier to control and boss around, who knows).

So, Winter is a rookie and he's made some rookie mistakes, but the question is, is he adapting to MLS and improving?

Over the past few weeks TFC have come away from games with points that in previous seasons (and the first half of this season) that they likely wouldn't have. This last game they didn't. Is it a bump on the road to more success or is it a sign that things aren't working?

brad
08-23-2011, 08:59 AM
In presenting the stats, I'm not sure anyone is taking the opinion that they tell 100% of the story.

However, over time, they tell most of the story. Your box office example is a good one. Over time, good movies will produce good results at the box office. Bad movies won't.

How do scouts evaluate talent? Think they use numbers in their evaluations? Things like a player's speed, size, strength, vertical? Do they ever use a "save percentage" to evaluate a keeper? I'd be shocked if the best teams in the world didn't use statistics like the chalkboard to evaluate their team and individual performances and plan for upcoming matches.

Successful players in all sports, team and individual are judged by their statistics at the end of the day. In hockey, it's why a player like Wayne Gretzky makes the Hall of Fame and why a fan favourite (my own personal favourite) who could get in based on popularity and subjectivity, Wendel Clark, doesn't.

On a game by game basis, you might find a time when Wendel outplayed Wayne. Overtime though, the stats would favour Gretzky.

So, yes, Iro's 5 defensive blocks might not tell the whole story but to someone claiming him to be a liability, it is a significant, OBJECTIVE counterpoint and definitely has a place in the post game discussion.

First off - I'm a stats guy through and through. However, stats are both powerful and dangerous because yes - they can show you things about how players perform, but it is also easy to slice and dice in any way you want. It's also dangerous to look at stats without context.

Your example of Iro's 5 defensive blocks is a perfect example of this. In itself, this means nothing unless those 5 defensive blocks were key blocks that affected the outcome of the match.

It also does not tell the other side of the story. How many errors did he have that cost us goals (none this past game, but stretching back a bit)? And when those errors did crop up - were they his fault? Was he covering two players because someone else was out of position? Was one of his missed passes straight to an opposition player that scored? These sorts of things don't come through in the stats as they are presented.

brad
08-23-2011, 09:07 AM
Let me expand my point a bit on stats. Take two defenders.

Defender A makes 10 defensive blocks, completes 10 passes and misses 2 passes
Defender B makes 4 defensive blocks, completes 6 passes and misses 4 passes.

Based on this, which defender had a better game? Defender A.

Now I provide you with some more stats.

None of Defender A's 10 blocks were key blocks.
2 of Defender B's blocks where key blocks.

One of defender A's missed passes led straight to an oppositions goal.
None of defender B's passes led straight to an oppositions goal.

Now defender B starts to look the better player.

But even that is not enough. Now we dig deeper and look into passing sequences. One of defender B's missed passes did not lead directly to a goal, but turned possession over to the other team and started a sequence of 10 passes that lead to the opposing goal. The final error on the goal was defender A's missed block, but defender B's missed pass started the sequence. So now the picture is fuzzy.

It goes on and on...

ManUtd4ever
08-23-2011, 09:07 AM
It's amazing how one match, in which TFC was rather unlucky not to earn a result, can influence one's opinion in lieu of the results of the previous several matches.

In the world of football, a scoreline in of itself is not necessarily indicative of the level of play of both clubs. I thought TFC was definitely the stronger side against Chicago, and I also thought TFC's performance was much better in that loss than it was in the victory in Panama.

It's called perspective; not in reference to the whole season, but in reference to the performance of this team since the roster was overhauled. During that time span, TFC has been far more competitive, and the effort has been consistent, even in the few matches that TFC has failed to earn a result.

Yohan
08-23-2011, 09:08 AM
Ok, forget the big name euro coach. Why do we settle for a no-name euro coach instead, particularly after another one before him bit the dust (carver). If the team is going to hire rookie managers, at least hire one with proven North American experience, as a coach (unlike Mo), not as a player. Lots of American Universities to look at. Some men with brains, and knowledge of the North American game.
again, you'd have to find the right manager.

would you agree that manager who won an MLS Cup would be a good choice? even if they get fired? hell, even guys who won MLS Cups get fired (Arena, Yallop) so what does that say about MLS experienced managers?

my point is that experience does count, but it doesn't mean that going the experience route is going to be success every time



Frankly, the game against Chicago (as this is a post game thread still), exposes a lot of the rookie mistakes Winter keeps making. Playing Frings as a defender is a joke. What good can possibly come of this when despite his presence, they still manage to lose 2-0? At least, when he plays up front, we get to watch a skilled midfielder who can make something happen, instead, we have two rookies counted on to create a goal. Last time I checked you win soccer by scoring more goals than the other team.
so, RSL game was a fluke then?

Jack
08-23-2011, 09:09 AM
Let me expand my point a bit on stats. Take two defenders.

Defender A makes 10 defensive blocks, completes 10 passes and misses 2 passes
Defender B makes 4 defensive blocks, completes 6 passes and misses 4 passes.

Based on this, which defender had a better game? Defender A.

Now I provide you with some more stats.

None of Defender A's 10 blocks were key blocks.
2 of Defender B's blocks where key blocks.

One of defender A's missed passes led straight to an oppositions goal.
None of defender B's passes led straight to an oppositions goal.

Now defender B starts to look the better player.

But even that is not enough. Now we dig deeper and look into passing sequences. One of defender B's missed passes did not lead directly to a goal, but turned possession over to the other team and started a sequence of 10 passes that lead to the opposing goal. The final error on the goal was defender A's missed block, but defender B's missed pass started the sequence. So now the picture is fuzzy.

It goes on and on...
You gotta love this game :D

Wull
08-23-2011, 09:17 AM
You gotta love this game :D

I love the fuzzy!

brad
08-23-2011, 09:18 AM
again, you'd have to find the right manager.

would you agree that manager who won an MLS Cup would be a good choice? even if they get fired? hell, even guys who won MLS Cups get fired (Arena, Yallop) so what does that say about MLS experienced managers?

my point is that experience does count, but it doesn't mean that going the experience route is going to be success every time

Especially if you factor in how fast the league has changed. Winning an MLS cup 10 years ago is very different than winning one now - and a manager that did so a decade ago may not have the coaching ability to win now.

Oldtimer
08-23-2011, 09:52 AM
Saying all this shit post loss screams that you have a pre conceived notion of what TFC is and will always be and you sit and wait for the appropriate result to back up your opinion.

Have some balls and argue your points after they play well.

You may not get any more people agreeing with you but at least people might believe you.


Keeping out of the comments after each win and waiting for the one loss in 7 games to make one's comments comes across more like trolling, especially with the hyperbole that was used.

Pookie
08-23-2011, 10:43 AM
Let me expand my point a bit on stats. Take two defenders.

Defender A makes 10 defensive blocks, completes 10 passes and misses 2 passes
Defender B makes 4 defensive blocks, completes 6 passes and misses 4 passes.

Based on this, which defender had a better game? Defender A.

Now I provide you with some more stats.

None of Defender A's 10 blocks were key blocks.
2 of Defender B's blocks where key blocks.

One of defender A's missed passes led straight to an oppositions goal.
None of defender B's passes led straight to an oppositions goal.

Now defender B starts to look the better player.

But even that is not enough. Now we dig deeper and look into passing sequences. One of defender B's missed passes did not lead directly to a goal, but turned possession over to the other team and started a sequence of 10 passes that lead to the opposing goal. The final error on the goal was defender A's missed block, but defender B's missed pass started the sequence. So now the picture is fuzzy.

It goes on and on...

Sure it does and there is no disagreement here. However, in this team game we are often left with many key variables that can't be recorded and dissected.

For example, the brilliant goal by the striker that was set up by a terrific cross. We focus on the two players. What of the defender that started the play with a tackle, winning a 1 v 1 situation and making a very good pass to build up the attack?

So, there is always going to be that subjectivity to analysis.

At the same time, you can't ignore statistics, particularly those over the long term. Overtime, passing accuracy is going to be established. Willingness to block or ability to cross are going to be measured with an objective criteria. It will become a variable that is used to evaluate the player, not the only one, but one that highlights his strengths and weaknesses.

I find the Chalkboard really useful for challenging (or substantiating) the post game commentary which at times goes to extremes.

"JDG can't pass" - well according to the stats, he was one of our more accurate passers

"Iro was a liability" - he was the only defender with blocked shots and had 5 of them to boot, and had a terrific completed pass ratio

Of course, there might be one foul up that led to a goal but even that is taken to extremes. Not many mentioned Eckersley getting turned around in the box and beaten 1 v 1. Why? They didn't end up scoring (because Iro blocked it).

But instead we'll focus on a marking situation which also happened to go through Frings' legs but because Iro was the player closest to the player who scored it, he is somehow a liability or the other favourite term, "shit".

Stats aren't everything. But if all we have is subjectivity that goes unchallenged then we really aren't looking at the full picture.

123 elite
08-23-2011, 10:44 AM
^

just because i have a different opinion than you doesn't make me a troll. I also don't think that commenting on the general shape of the team and what i think of the coaching staff after a loss is a misplaced comment. If you do then i'm sorry. I also did comment positively after their last wins v Vancouver. I'm not really interested in the CCL to be honest. I wish them well but i don't really find the tournament that interesting. The decent opposition are mostly MLS teams anyway. Once you factor in refs and the state of the pitches it has the appeal of the summer qualifying rounds of the intertoto cup. I didn't have the time to pass comment after the RSL game for other reasons.... good first half. Went to shit in the second. Got a lucky break. Badly needed points. That aside its that long since we won a game that it isnt that surprising you haven't heard much positive from me.
I should probably stop commenting here for sure because even i think most of my comments are now just motivated by a mixture of season long anger and now apathy. Probably not the best way to view the game anymore. SO point taken.

Yohan
08-23-2011, 10:53 AM
^

just because i have a different opinion than you doesn't make me a troll. I also don't think that commenting on the general shape of the team and what i think of the coaching staff after a loss is a misplaced comment. If you do then i'm sorry. I also did comment positively after their last wins v Vancouver. I'm not really interested in the CCL to be honest. I wish them well but i don't really find the tournament that interesting. The decent opposition are mostly MLS teams anyway. Once you factor in refs and the state of the pitches it has the appeal of the summer qualifying rounds of the intertoto cup. I didn't have the time to pass comment after the RSL game for other reasons.... good first half. Went to shit in the second. Got a lucky break. Badly needed points. That aside its that long since we won a game that it isnt that surprising you haven't heard much positive from me.
I should probably stop commenting here for sure because even i think most of my comments are now just motivated by a mixture of season long anger and now apathy. Probably not the best way to view the game anymore. SO point taken.
you forgot about the Mexican teams. lol

Jack
08-23-2011, 10:53 AM
It's been a tough road for all of us, for sure. I think those who are looking at the CCL with some measure of interest are trying for positive results, which is not a bad thing.

@ Pookie, you make a good point about saying things like "Iro is shit" or "JDG can't pass". The stats bear out that they can, but what the stats don't tell is how key those plays were. Iro can make 20 tackles on the sideline, but the one tackle he misses could be in the 6-yard box. He could block 20 speculative efforts and then whiff on a goal-line clearance. So the stats can tell one story, but watching the game tells something else. A player can be statistically reliable, but not clutch. I'd rather have clutch.

Pookie
08-23-2011, 11:02 AM
^ clutch is subjective though, isn't it? Eckersley got beat 1 v 1 which led to a scoring chance. Hardly any commentary on that in this thread, maybe one comment.

Every player makes mistakes. Sometimes they are costly like a penalty in the box or other times they go unnoticed if the resulting opportunity is saved or goes wide. This is particularly true for MLS players that are in this developmental league for a reason. Mistakes are made by all.

I tend to feel that people look for examples for certain players to fail. All I would really like is to read an objective view of the game without singling out the current whipping boy, every game. If Iro (or JDG) have a bad game, let's call it that. Let's also not look at the upcoming game with a preconceived conclusion as to what contribution (or lack thereof) that they will provide.

Jack
08-23-2011, 11:25 AM
^ clutch is subjective though, isn't it? Eckersley got beat 1 v 1 which led to a scoring chance. Hardly any commentary on that in this thread, maybe one comment.

Every player makes mistakes. Sometimes they are costly like a penalty in the box or other times they go unnoticed if the resulting opportunity is saved or goes wide. This is particularly true for MLS players that are in this developmental league for a reason. Mistakes are made by all.

I tend to feel that people look for examples for certain players to fail. All I would really like is to read an objective view of the game without singling out the current whipping boy, every game. If Iro (or JDG) have a bad game, let's call it that. Let's also not look at the upcoming game with a preconceived conclusion as to what contribution (or lack thereof) that they will provide.

I agree with you. Iro has, unfortunately, had some pretty spectacular ones in his short time here, which have led to him having a spotlight shone on his shortcomings.

Oldtimer
08-23-2011, 12:30 PM
^

just because i have a different opinion than you doesn't make me a troll.

For sure not. I didn't remember you posting in the Vancouver game, my bad, it seemed like you come out only when the team has lost.

I didn't call 69chevy a troll, even though he is negative in this thread because he posts regularly, not just when the team is losing, and while negative about the team's chances, he doesn't exaggerate to make a point.

69Chevy396
08-23-2011, 01:11 PM
again, you'd have to find the right manager.

would you agree that manager who won an MLS Cup would be a good choice? even if they get fired? hell, even guys who won MLS Cups get fired (Arena, Yallop) so what does that say about MLS experienced managers?

my point is that experience does count, but it doesn't mean that going the experience route is going to be success every time


so, RSL game was a fluke then?
I was at that game, it was a good performance, and RSL playing poorly of late failed to score cause of some remarkable saves by our guy, and our only goal was the result of a fluke, yes. Even Plata would say he was passing the ball, not aiming for the net. I didn't say they would lose every game, just most of them. At the end of the season we can rejoice at the 4 or 5 wins, that will be a lot of fun when being asked to renew our tickets at a 15 percent hike. (if they win more I will glady pay the premium)

rocker
08-23-2011, 02:03 PM
our only goal was the result of a fluke, yes.


Plata's goal wasn't a fluke. He directed a ball towards the net (putting balls on the net is what yer supposed to do), Marosevic provided a distraction, and it went in without touching anybody.

A fluke would be an own goal by RSL leading to a win... or a ball hitting a seagull and going in, a bad bounce on a rut in the goal.

Rimando made a mistake in playing the man not the ball. If he actually played the ball, he woulda saved it. But I would argue most goals are scored on either brilliance or mistakes. But it wasn't a fluke.

Pookie
08-23-2011, 03:27 PM
^ like these

V9UU7FYaWnc

TFC USA
08-23-2011, 03:35 PM
9 MLS road wins in 5 seasons.

Says it all.

Pookie
08-23-2011, 05:16 PM
They say trolls like to be fed. This may be what you are looking for.


Buffalo Wings -Seared and Grilled Chicken Style

Ingredients:
Whole Chicken Wings
Butter Hot Sauce
Olive or Vegie Oil
Chicken Rub

Wash and dry the wings. Do not cut them up. Coat the wings in oil and your favorite chicken rub. Then sear the wings for a minute or two over the hot coals Move the wings to indirect heating, opposite the coals. Cover in a 350f grill for about 30 minutes. Add some harwood for an additional smoke flavor. Remove when the chicken reaches 180f. Cooking time will vary depending on the size of the wings and how hot your grill is. Serve with your favorite hot or mild barbeque sauce.

cherono
08-23-2011, 05:26 PM
Sorry to bring back the Mourinho talk, but he's quoted today, in an denial of him planning to quit, as saying:
"my motivation is enormous and my Madridismo is even greater than that of some pseudo-Madridistas..."
That's a great turn of phrase. Can we refer to coaches, players -even message board posters - as having degrees of "Torontismo"?!

Roogsy
08-23-2011, 05:43 PM
:lol:

That one made me chuckle.

69Chevy396
08-23-2011, 09:14 PM
9 MLS road wins in 5 seasons.

Says it all.
Yea, but we are building for the future:flare:

billyfly
08-23-2011, 09:18 PM
Sorry to bring back the Mourinho talk, but he's quoted today, in an denial of him planning to quit, as saying:
"my motivation is enormous and my Madridismo is even greater than that of some pseudo-Madridistas..."
That's a great turn of phrase. Can we refer to coaches, players -even message board posters - as having degrees of "Torontismo"?!

Guilty as charged.

CSO_BBTB
08-24-2011, 12:00 AM
...Try this little experiment.

Go through this thread and write down the user names of all the people professing to know anything about this game and how good/bad TFC are. Then go the the RSL post game thread and search for their user names and contributions.

Tell you what...I'll save you the time.

Crickets.

A lot of people lack the understanding of the game required to post anything beyond a get rid of the coach sort of comment any time the team is losing, unfortunately. The knowledgeable fanbase stuff that is repeated a lot about the TFC support is a bit of a stretch although no doubt justified to some extent relative to places like Columbus, which lack a large first and second generation immigrant demographic.

Beyond the team's relative recent success, another reason people will have gone quiet of late is that the big European leagues have started up again so their focus has switched back over to the overseas teams that they follow from afar for gloryhunting reasons. Much angst is probably being expressed elsewhere about stuff like losing at home to St Johnstone or De Gea's dodgy goalkeeping rather than about Aron Winter in other words.

torontocelt
08-24-2011, 05:14 AM
A lot of people lack the understanding of the game required to post anything beyond a get rid of the coach sort of comment any time the team is losing, unfortunately. The knowledgeable fanbase stuff that is repeated a lot about the TFC support is a bit of a stretch although no doubt justified to some extent relative to places like Columbus, which lack a large first and second generation immigrant demographic.

Beyond the team's relative recent success, another reason people will have gone quiet of late is that the big European leagues have started up again so their focus has switched back over to the overseas teams that they follow from afar for gloryhunting reasons. Much angst is probably being expressed elsewhere about stuff like losing at home to St Johnstone or De Gea's dodgy goalkeeping rather than about Aron Winter in other words.

Ha, ha. This post is insulting to so many people in so many ways, get over yourself mate.

v00d00daddy
08-24-2011, 08:39 AM
Ha, ha. This post is insulting to so many people in so many ways, get over yourself mate.


Honestly speaking...what's so insulting about what he said and to whom is it insulting?

Unless you're talking about the overseas "gloryhunting" comment. There I see your point. As for a knowledgeable fanbase here.....I have my own opinions on that. Best left for another thread on another day. LOL

Jack
08-24-2011, 08:50 AM
I am an overseas gloryhunter. I have been one for 18 years now, so it's not likely to change. But, despite the suffering they put me through, TFC is my home team.

ManUtd4ever
08-24-2011, 08:59 AM
I am an overseas gloryhunter. I have been one for 18 years now, so it's not likely to change. But, despite the suffering they put me through, TFC is my home team.

Co-signed. TFC has been in existence for merely 5 years, so it's completely natural for most supporters to have prior allegiances to clubs overseas. Nonetheless, I can honestly say that TFC winning the CCL or MLS Cup would be the pinnacle for me as a footy supporter.

Heathen
08-24-2011, 10:08 AM
Honestly speaking...what's so insulting about what he said and to whom is it insulting?

Unless you're talking about the overseas "gloryhunting" comment. There I see your point. As for a knowledgeable fanbase here.....I have my own opinions on that. Best left for another thread on another day. LOL

We'll all see which side of the fence turns out to be knowledgeable and which doesn't, answer should be in sometime around May/June next year.

Beach_Red
08-24-2011, 10:13 AM
Honestly speaking...what's so insulting about what he said and to whom is it insulting?

Unless you're talking about the overseas "gloryhunting" comment. There I see your point. As for a knowledgeable fanbase here.....I have my own opinions on that. Best left for another thread on another day. LOL

This isn't really the thread for this, but a lot of the discussions we've had on here have been about the way this corporation chose to structure an expansion team - a lot of the problems this team has had started way before on field tactics and coaching. Sure, some of us may not be the most knowledgeable fans of this particular game but many of us have been through the experience of seeing how an expansion team gets built.

From the beginning with TFC there have been people here who have treated its front office the same as an established team's and expected the same things. Would it have been insulting to say those posters, "lack an understanding" of the way North American sports leagues' expansion teams are structured and built so they didn't recognize the problems with this one?

torontocelt
08-24-2011, 12:56 PM
Honestly speaking...what's so insulting about what he said and to whom is it insulting?

Unless you're talking about the overseas "gloryhunting" comment. There I see your point. As for a knowledgeable fanbase here.....I have my own opinions on that. Best left for another thread on another day. LOL

A lot of people lack the understanding of the game required to post anything beyond a get rid of the coach sort of comment any time the team is losing, unfortunately. The knowledgeable fanbase stuff that is repeated a lot about the TFC support is a bit of a stretch although no doubt justified to some extent relative to places like Columbus, which lack a large first and second generation immigrant demographic.

Beyond the team's relative recent success, another reason people will have gone quiet of late is that the big European leagues have started up again so their focus has switched back over to the overseas teams that they follow from afar for gloryhunting reasons. Much angst is probably being expressed elsewhere about stuff like losing at home to St Johnstone or De Gea's dodgy goalkeeping rather than about Aron Winter in other words.

Okay let me explain further:

1) 'A lot of people lack the understanding of the game required to post anything beyond a get rid of the coach sort of comment any time the team is losing, unfortunately.'

This is insulting to a large portion of the board who frequent here, he is basically saying a large portion of this board knows nothing about football. I find that insulting on behalf of people who frequent this board, I have seen no real proof of what he is claiming.

2) 'The knowledgeable fanbase stuff that is repeated a lot about the TFC support is a bit of a stretch although no doubt justified to some extent relative to places like Columbus, which lack a large first and second generation immigrant demographic.'

I have no idea if 1st or 2nd generation immigrants know more about football than people who have families that have resided here for longer than that. To be honest how the hell does anyone know that?

3) 'Beyond the team's relative recent success, another reason people will have gone quiet of late is that the big European leagues have started up again so their focus has switched back over to the overseas teams that they follow from afar for gloryhunting reasons.'

Indeed some of us were born and raised overseas and it is perfectly logical that we support teams from our own countries. I have supported Celtic since I was 5 years old and I only moved here five years ago. When you pick a team at 5 you have little concept of glory hunting, I never anyway, for what it is worth I liked the strip, it was as simple as that. Also there atre tons of people on this board that support overseas teams who have little or no success, just because someone is watching a team from their own country doesn't necessarily make them a glory hunter.

The original poster obviously does not have a high opinion for a lot of people on the board, what makes him such a know it all about football that he can look down on others, that is basically what his post suggests he is doing?

69Chevy396
08-24-2011, 01:08 PM
What I find amusing is if all I knew about soccer emanated from watching MLS and TFC I would be the first to admit I know very little about the beautiful game. A true fan of soccer has more interest in the game than what happens at BMO 20 odd times a year.

Jack
08-24-2011, 01:18 PM
What I find amusing is if all I knew about soccer emanated from watching MLS and TFC I would be the first to admit I know very little about the beautiful game. A true fan of soccer has more interest in the game than what happens at BMO 20 odd times a year.

Of course they do. I watch as much of the game as I can, whenever time permits (which is far less than it used to be, sadly :( ).