Winter Approval Rating - July 2011

[__wowza]

Alright, first things first, we're currently sitting 8th in the east and 15th overall, two places down in the conference and one overall. out of the teams below us in the standings, chicago has 4 games in hand and vancity has 2. now, it's been a busy month, so lets get to it.. how do you think winter has performed as coach?

Just some guidelines:


Its how you feel at the moment, not a final assessment. Like a marathon, this is just a snapshot of our support at this point in time. A low approval rating does not rate him as an overall failure, just like a high approval rating does not mean he's Sir Alex Ferguson.
Whatever factors or metrics your feel are most important to you in the coaching position, use those to guide you.

For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in July:



W/L/L/L/L/W/T: 1 point out of a possible 15

*gold denotes NCC game *red denotes CCL game



Toronto FC v Whitecaps
July 02: Win 2 - 1

Red Bulls v Toronto FC
July 06: Loss 5 - 0

Dynamo v Toronto FC
July 09: Loss 2 - 0

Toronto FC v FC Dallas
July 20: Loss 0 - 1

Sporting KC v Toronto FC
July 23: Loss 4 - 2

Toronto FC v Real Esteli F.C.
July 27: Win 2 - 1

Timbers v Toronto FC
July 30: Tie 2 - 2


JUNE THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28658
MAY THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28251 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28251)
APRIL THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=27878 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=27878)





ALSO: i was thinking of switching it up next month. making it a grading system with a certain criteria instead of a simple yes or no. whats everyone think?

[King Jeff]

I'll give him a marginal pass for now. I'm still unconvinced by his ability as a head coach, but I like what I see on the Technical Director side.

[Detroit_TFC]

I feel better now than I have for a while. Koeverman is starting to activate. Frings is doing what he's been hired to do. The attempt to focus on an attacking game now seems doable. Problem is we are going to continue to get burned by the counterattack.

[jabbronies]

I voted yes and I continue to remain with the same mindset as the last time we did this poll a month or so ago.

I wanted to see who he brought in and who he got rid of at the mid season trade deadline. So far I have been happy, not ecstatic, but happy. If he could bring in a proper CB - then I will be ecstatic.

Plata, Eckersley, Frings, Koevermans, Johnson, Dunfield is a very good foundation to build with for the next 1-2 years.

Jury is still out on Merosevic, Iro, Griffit, Robinson, Viator, Yourassowski, Zavarise, Williams.

Borman, Martina, Bouchiba, have been a bust

Again - he has until May of 2012 to show me what he is doing is worth all the misery. By that time, I expect TFC to be dangerous on the pitch.

[ManUtd4ever]

I definitely approve of the majority of recent player acquisitions, which is a testament to Paul Mariner as well as Aron Winter. As a coach, Winter has to earn an approval rating from this point forward, based on the depth of talent on the current roster.

[menefreghista]

I voted no. Kind of wish there was some middle ground though.

It is interesting that this poll seems to come up after a positive result. The month leading up to the tie with Portland was rather dour, in terms of results.

[Roogsy]

I voted no. Kind of wish there was some middle ground though.

It is interesting that this poll seems to come up after a positive result. The month leading up to the tie with Portland was rather dour, in terms of results.

I feel the same. It's like he can have the worst month ever but seems to pull out a good result at the end of the month to make everyone feel good and affect the poll.

To me, his coaching abilities are still suspect and they're being masked by the arrival of the very high quality DPs. It doesn't make him a better coach. The better players are doing his job for him.

[PopePouri]

Still early days IMO and still a lot of Mo players taking up cap space.

Based on the more recent games, Winters tactics have been decent. He has more options now and he's used them well. He looks more confident in the current set of players because we've seen a lot more build up from the back instead of reverting to long ball when things went balls up.

Most of the new players he's acquired have been a hit instead of a miss. I like the acquisition of Johnson and the fact that he's already done more than the guys back in San Jose combined.

[Whoop]

Tonight will go a long way....

[menefreghista]

still a lot of Mo players taking up cap space.

I don't think we can say this anymore.

[Canary10]

I've supported Winter since he came in. I really think his vision is the way to go, and like the steps he's taking with the academy, etc. That said...

We can't say there's been a turnaround quite yet. Football really is a game of form. We need to see a string of 5-6 matches with results to really say we've turned a corner. We're on a win and a draw right now. Another win tonight would be great.

For me to say there is a real direction toward being a solid team, I want to see a doubling of points in our last 11 games. We drew the last game, so that's 17 points we need out of 10 games remaining to get there. That's a big task but doable if we really are on the way to being a top tier team.

[Beach_Red]

I feel the same. It's like he can have the worst month ever but seems to pull out a good result at the end of the month to make everyone feel good and affect the poll.

To me, his coaching abilities are still suspect and they're being masked by the arrival of the very high quality DPs. It doesn't make him a better coach. The better players are doing his job for him.


Does the arrival of the new players mask his coaching abilities any more than the inheriting a roster (and FO) masked his coaching abilities?

Getting the most out of the best players is a big part of a coaches job. We've certainly seen here (and lots of other places) good players not producing.

[flambe]

does anyone know how long the contracts are for our new DP's or if there are any opt-out clauses etc?

[ManUtd4ever]

Does the arrival of the new players mask his coaching abilities any more than the inheriting a roster (and FO) masked his coaching abilities?

Getting the most out of the best players is a big part of a coaches job. We've certainly seen here (and lots of other places) good players not producing.

Agreed. If he deserves criticism for the dismal performances of the club that he inherited, he most certainly deserves praise if the team he has assembled begins to achieve a modicum of success on the pitch.

[Auzzy]

I wish there was a "neutral" option.

[PopePouri]

I don't think we can say this anymore.

A good 500K at least. JDG taking up most of it.

[menefreghista]

A good 500K at least. JDG taking up most of it.

There's been enough turnover now that we can't still blame Mo Johnston.

This is Winter/Mariner's creation. No more excuses.

[rocker]

To me, his coaching abilities are still suspect and they're being masked by the arrival of the very high quality DPs. It doesn't make him a better coach. The better players are doing his job for him.

I don't think you can separate the quality of the players from the coaching ability.

Usually coaches who inherit crappy teams make lots of changes, to find better players and players who will play their system. See, for example, Sigi in Columbus, Arena in LA, Kreis in Salt Lake. All three made major changes pretty quickly after taking over. Their reputation as good coaches comes along with getting better players or getting players to fit their system.

[Roogsy]

Does the arrival of the new players mask his coaching abilities any more than the inheriting a roster (and FO) masked his coaching abilities?

Getting the most out of the best players is a big part of a coaches job. We've certainly seen here (and lots of other places) good players not producing.


Agreed. If he deserves criticism for the dismal performances of the club that he inherited, he most certainly deserves praise if the team he has assembled begins to achieve a modicum of success on the pitch.


That's where I continue to disagree with this board. Considering the rosters he has put out in every game are mostly players he has brought in, I don't see how one can argue that he "inherited" these players unless we're complaining about guys like Frei?

I think it comes back to defining what a "good coach" is and perhaps all of us have difference definitions for that classification.

For me, one of those characteristics is a coach that gets the best out of his players, good or bad. If he has a below-average roster and achieves average results then that is an indication of a good coach. Much like a poor coach would be one that has an above average roster that achieves average results. There is no doubt Winter had an average roster (perhaps even below-average) in the first-half of the season but he did not achieve below-average results, he achieved shockingly awful results and to me that is telling.

I think with the changes made, this roster should be a playoff calibre team, but will Winter get the most out of them or will we muddle through our season? That is my fear. What benefit is it to have a $5million payroll if we will not be able to beat teams with half the talent/payroll?

Time will tell of course.

[Couchy81]

I wish there was a "neutral" option.

That would be the easy way out ;)

There's gotta be some factors you see as positive and some as negative, and I doubt they can be weighted evenly.

I voted yes because I still think he is doing more good for the team than harm up until this point in his tenure.

[Roogsy]

There's been enough turnover now that we can't still blame Mo Johnston.

This is Winter/Mariner's creation. No more excuses.


My fear is that so long as there is at least one single player from the Mo era, Winter will continue to be excused for having to "inherit" players. I am tired of pointing out how illogical that is.

[Heathen]

Voted No, not because I want him sacked but because over the whole of July the negative still outweighs the positive although I saw signs of improvement against Portland and Real Esteli.
I would definitely like a graduated approval rating next time, Yes and No leads to a skewed result.

[menefreghista]

I think with the changes made, this roster should be a playoff calibre team, but will Winter get the most out of them or will we muddle through our season? That is my fear. What benefit is it to have a $5million payroll if we will not be able to beat teams with half the talent/payroll?

Time will tell of course.

It will be interesting to see how this new team does on Saturday against DC and the following Saturday at home against RSL. By then the new players will have had almost a month to get acclimated.

Right now TFC's only recent positive results have occurred against MLS expansion teams or Real Estelli (who are awful).

[pekduck]

My fear is that so long as there is at least one single player from the Mo era, Winter will continue to be excused for having to "inherit" players. I am tired of pointing out how illogical that is.

not really, the Winter era didn't start until the recent trades, which is a L-L-T in MLS and W in CCL prelim.

[Pookie]

Ah, same old same old eh?

As for whether Winter is a good coach, let's ask Richard Eckersley:

Eckersley believes he has thrived under coach Winter’s tutelage.

“With every player on the team, and this is why he’s so good, he tells everybody to not be afraid to express themselves on the field, even in practice. He also teaches and encourages you at the same time, and that’s why I enjoy playing for him,” Eckersley said.


Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/07/29/sp-mls-tfc-eckersley.html?ref=rss#ixzz1TswXN9n1

[Heathen]

I don't think you can separate the quality of the players from the coaching ability.

Usually coaches who inherit crappy teams make lots of changes, to find better players and players who will play their system. See, for example, Sigi in Columbus, Arena in LA, Kreis in Salt Lake. All three made major changes pretty quickly after taking over. Their reputation as good coaches comes along with getting better players or getting players to fit their system.

Yes Kreis, Schmid and Arena all got rid of players they didn't want and brought in ones they did but during their first seasons Schmid and Kreis had significantly better records even with their "unwanted" players than Winter has so far. I've checked the stats for thos etwo although not for Arena at LA.

[Gazza]

My fear is that Winter didn't stand a chance from the outset with the regular jaded, armchair managers on this board.

I'll reserve my judgement of his work for next season.

[Roogsy]

not really, the Winter era didn't start until the recent trades, which is a L-L-T in MLS and W in CCL prelim.


Then what did we just go through? Is the first 2/3 of the season worthless for evaluating Winter as a coach?

We might as well have trotted out our reserves or academy kids for 20 games.

[pekduck]

My fear is that Winter didn't stand a chance from the outset with the regular jaded, armchair managers on this board.

I'll reserve my judgement of his work for next season.

definitely according to the 'board', which is fine, good thing he's managing the real team in real life :)

[rocker]

If he has a below-average roster and achieves average results then that is an indication of a good coach. Much like a poor coach would be one that has an above average roster that achieves average results.

This makes sense in theory, but I can't imagine any way of measuring this.

What is a "below average roster" other than a team that has bad results? And if a team has bad results, is that because of the bad roster or the coach who can't lift his team up to average results?

Looking at this another way..... Bruce Arena performed poorly in NY. Nicol has performed poorly in NE lately. Why is that? What does it tell us about their coaching ability?

[pekduck]

Then what did we just go through? Is the first 2/3 of the season worthless for evaluating Winter as a coach?

We might as well have trotted out our reserves or academy kids for 20 games.

the first 2/3 of the season actually gave me more insight to winter's approach seeing he did a full evaluation of the players at his disposal to all the details, regardless of good or bad, he evaluated them by giving them playing time for the ones who has potential to stay

hence it appears that when the time to make trades, he and mariner are able to swiftly getting it done and making multiple trades knowing exactly what they are getting rid off and getting back

it is a dogged and entrenched effort to initiate a change of paradigm and culture, often begins with disastrous scenario to set the fire and get the balls rolling

but the most important one, knowing exactly what you have takes time

[Couchy81]

Yes Kreis, Schmid and Arena all got rid of players they didn't want and brought in ones they did but during their first seasons Schmid and Kreis had significantly better records even with their "unwanted" players than Winter has so far. I've checked the stats for thos etwo although not for Arena at LA.

Out of Kreis Schmid and Arena, which of them tried implementing an as-of-yet untested style of play in MLS on a team that didn't exist 5 years earlier and was notorious for recycling players and coaches faster than the blue bins at BMO leaving them with absolutely zero foundation and left with the ruins of a horrible mishmash of subpar MLS'ers, failed Euro's and impressionable Academy kids?

Given that I think any comparison is unjustified. You would need to give Kreis Schmid and Arena Preki's old TFC mid off-season of this year to see what they could do and compare it to Winter and Co.

[Roogsy]

the first 2/3 of the season actually gave me more insight to winter's approach seeing he did a full evaluation of the players at his disposal to all the details, regardless of good or bad, he evaluated them by giving them playing time for the ones who has potential to stay

hence it appears that when the time to make trades, he and mariner are able to swiftly getting it done and making multiple trades knowing exactly what they are getting rid off and getting back

it is a dogged and entrenched effort to initiate a change of paradigm and culture, often begins with disastrous scenario to set the fire and get the balls rolling

but the most important one, knowing exactly what you have takes time

7 months of time? Why not the full year then?

Ridiculous. He should have known what he had in his hands in a matter of weeks. Certainly by April and then adjusted his tactics accordingly. Instead we got 7 months of putrid shit.

Evaluating players should have also entailed getting the most out of them and seeing what the best results were that he could have gotten out of them. Was that the best he could do? If our record until the transfer date indicates how bad the players were, why does it not also indicate how bad the coach is?

I am sorry but I do not find it acceptable that we paid seasons prices to watch an extended pre-season.

[menefreghista]

My fear is that Winter didn't stand a chance from the outset with the regular jaded, armchair managers on this board.

I'll reserve my judgement of his work for next season.

I wouldn't worry about the jaded cynics on this board. At least we still care enough about this team to follow it and discuss it.

The bigger issue are the fans that are tired of all the losing coupled with ticket gouging and are leaving this team. Not everyone can easily brush off 3 wins in 24 league games like a lot of the positive people on this forum can.

While lots of people here are saying wait, more time is needed, this team becomes a bigger and bigger joke among the Toronto sport fan.

[pekduck]

7 months of time? Why not the full year then?

Ridiculous. He should have known what he had in his hands in a matter of weeks. Certainly by April and then adjusted his tactics accordingly. Instead we got 7 months of putrid shit.

Evaluating players should have also entailed getting the most out of them and seeing what the best results were that he could have gotten out of them. Was that the best he could do? If our record until the transfer date indicates how bad the players were, why does it not also indicate how bad the coach is?

I am sorry but I do not find it acceptable that we paid seasons prices to watch an extended pre-season.

you are definitely entitled to your opinions, it looks to me you want to win now and get the most out of it

to me, he's relaying the foundation to create a sustainable and systematic approach forthis team, which has the utmost priority of establish a playing philosophy and style. adapting to the players inherited for improved performance short term is in direct violation to the long term strategy. i'm glad he didn't do that to chase short term returns

that's my opinion

[Ageroo]

Ridiculous. He should have known what he had in his hands in a matter of weeks. Certainly by April and then adjusted his tactics accordingly. Instead we got 7 months of putrid shit.

While I agree with you Roogs and think the logical thing to do would be to adjust tactics according to what you have......it seems like 4-3-3 is what is being hammered at all costs. So struggle through the results with improper players trying to grasp it.....they didn't.

I like that they are trying to go ground up to hammer this system. Whether it works to me lies more in the future than it does now. Not saying I accept a mediocre product....but I wasn't expecting much this season either....

[rocker]

Yes Kreis, Schmid and Arena all got rid of players they didn't want and brought in ones they did but during their first seasons Schmid and Kreis had significantly better records even with their "unwanted" players than Winter has so far. I've checked the stats for thos etwo although not for Arena at LA.

No, Kreis didn't have "significantly better record" than Winter. I checked the stats a few weeks ago and in Kreis's first season, he had about 1 win better (in points per game) than Winter did as of a week or so ago. I'm going on Kreis's whole season, NOT simply after he signed players in the transfer window.

Let's not forget that both Schmidt and Kreis inherited teams that had slightly better records the year before they took over than Winter did. And both Schmidt and Kreis saw their teams finished worse than the year before. Actually, Kreis's team saw a drop from 2006-2007 that is close to the drop TFC has seen this season in the standings.

Anyways, none of this proves the original point that we can separate the coaching from the players. RSL sucked under Kreis year 1, Columbus sucked under Schmidt in year 1. And both coaches made massive changes. They got better after massive changes. Again, you can't separate the coaching from the players.

Another way of saying it is this: you can't say that the success Kreis and Sigi had with those teams is simply a product of "good coaching on the field."

If someone can actually name a coach who walked into a shitty MLS team, and turned the team around without bringing in new players, I'd like to know. Cuz I've thought about it and I cannot think of such a coach since I've been watching MLS (2007).

[Couchy81]

7 months of time? Why not the full year then?

Ridiculous. He should have known what he had in his hands in a matter of weeks. Certainly by April and then adjusted his tactics accordingly. Instead we got 7 months of putrid shit.

Evaluating players should have also entailed getting the most out of them and seeing what the best results were that he could have gotten out of them. Was that the best he could do? If our record until the transfer date indicates how bad the players were, why does it not also indicate how bad the coach is?

I am sorry but I do not find it acceptable that we paid seasons prices to watch an extended pre-season.

I would agree with you on this IF Winter had previous MLS experience. He was coming into this league and evaluating IT'S players as well as his own team. That takes a season.

[Roogsy]

you are definitely entitled to your opinions, it looks to me you want to win now and get the most out of it

to me, he's relaying the foundation to create a sustainable and systematic approach forthis team, which has the utmost priority of establish a playing philosophy and style. adapting to the players inherited for improved performance short term is in direct violation to the long term strategy. i'm glad he didn't do that to chase short term returns

that's my opinion

Unfortunately that mischaracterization of our position (on the negative side) is what is most frustrating because I was not demanding "win now".

Anyone can have a vision Kev. But shouldn't part of the analysis be the capability to implement it? What evidence is there that he has this capability?

Why don't we all just pack it up for 3 years and wait until year 4 or 5 again to see if it works, and heaven help us if it doesn't?

You just can't attribute the growing pains of change as the reason for a team's struggles. If things that should be there aren't, (fight, heart, strategic improvisation, motivation) then the problem isn't with the "vision".

[menefreghista]

I would agree with you on this IF Winter had previous MLS experience. He was coming into this league and evaluating IT'S players as well as his own team. That takes a season.

That's another annoying part of this mess of a season. After all TFC had gone through they hired a guy that got to learn on the job.

[Roogsy]

I would agree with you on this IF Winter had previous MLS experience. He was coming into this league and evaluating IT'S players as well as his own team. That takes a season.


And this right here is why I and others have had a problem with Winter from the start. Once again we are getting a rookie who is learning on the job. By definition it's a gamble. TFC fans deserved better.

Shit, if I knew that they were accepting rookies, I would have thrown my name in the hat for consideration. I am sure Winter is making a nice comp package. I wouldn't mind a piece of that to be trained to do a job.

[Roogsy]

No, Kreis didn't have "significantly better record" than Winter. I checked the stats a few weeks ago and in Kreis's first season, he had about 1 win better (in points per game) than Winter did as of a week or so ago. I'm going on Kreis's whole season, NOT simply after he signed players in the transfer window.

Let's not forget that both Schmidt and Kreis inherited teams that had slightly better records the year before they took over than Winter did. And both Schmidt and Kreis saw their teams finished worse than the year before. Actually, Kreis's team saw a drop from 2006-2007 that is close to the drop TFC has seen this season in the standings.

Anyways, none of this proves the original point that we can separate the coaching from the players. RSL sucked under Kreis year 1, Columbus sucked under Schmidt in year 1. And both coaches made massive changes. They got better after massive changes. Again, you can't separate the coaching from the players.

Another way of saying it is this: you can't say that the success Kreis and Sigi had with those teams is simply a product of "good coaching on the field."

If someone can actually name a coach who walked into a shitty MLS team, and turned the team around without bringing in new players, I'd like to know. Cuz I've thought about it and I cannot think of such a coach since I've been watching MLS (2007).

This is all nice and dandy but Winter DID bring in new players (many new players in fact) and STILL got shitty results.

Why do people overlook this fact?

[Canary10]

Roogsy, what would it take from here on for you to say we're progressing?

[ensco]

The supporters are essentially united behind Winter. A large number may have concerns but will not vote "no" at this early point in his tenure. We have thrashed through this already.

The real question is, so what? If you define the "fan base", as defined as SSHs, I think the supporters are actually in a minority (can't prove it, just mho). There were obviously far less than 9,200 or whatever they announced at the Nicaraguan game.

The passion we feel about this around here is misleading. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.

You can't just flush a season like this without it having major consequences.

Winter is unlikely to have the time most want here to do whatever it is he is trying to do, like it or not. Again just mho.

[rocker]

This is all nice and dandy but Winter DID bring in new players (many new players in fact) and STILL got shitty results.

Why do people overlook this fact?

Why do you overlook the fact that Schmidt and Kreis didn't get their success until their second seasons? LOL.

Sample size, anyone? ;)

And you avoided answering my question about a coach who walked in and turned a team around based on coaching ability alone. Or a coach who took a "below average roster and got average results."

You have this theory that a good coach is someone who can take a certain level of roster and get better results than the roster implies. Nice theory, in theory. But you can't prove it so it's a pointless theory.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Such a small amount of people that say

"I'll give him a season..."

actually have the patience.

Oh well...

[DangerRed]

This is all nice and dandy but Winter DID bring in new players (many new players in fact) and STILL got shitty results.

Why do people overlook this fact?

It's very conveniently forgotten every time this discussion takes place.

He brought in droves and droves of new players, in fact. At least 10 by my count, including the picks.

Isn't it more likely that Winter underestimated the league AND the quality of the squad he had created in the preseason a la Gullitt and that we're now reaping the results of those underestimations? :noidea:

[pekduck]

Unfortunately that mischaracterization of our position (on the negative side) is what is most frustrating because I was not demanding "win now".

Anyone can have a vision Kev. But shouldn't part of the analysis be the capability to implement it? What evidence is there that he has this capability?

Why don't we all just pack it up for 3 years and wait until year 4 or 5 again to see if it works, and heaven help us if it doesn't?

You just can't attribute the growing pains of change as the reason for a team's struggles. If things that should be there aren't, (fight, heart, strategic improvisation, motivation) then the problem isn't with the "vision".

perhaps it is characterization or perhaps it is what you described and what you think you described didn't match :D oh well, it's the interwebs

i actually don't think this team struggles more than it did in the previous season. furthermore, what are 'evidences' to me may be counter evidence to others because our views and perspective are different. at the end of the day, it's all about perception.

to me, the evidences are already aplenty, the determination to make a change, the due diligence in thorough player evaluation, the persistence to not give in in adversaries, the audacity to encourage players to play with their creativity (Ecks' quote), the swiftness in shipping out players who doesn't fit the system, etc etc.

of course, all those can be viewed by others as negativity or bad traits, perception is reality

i have faith at the moment, haha

[ensco]

Such a small amount of people that say

"I'll give him a season..."

actually have the patience.

Oh well...

Why do you say that? Winter gets 75%+ in every poll

Nice haiku btw

[WinterWarrior]

Roogsy, what would it take from here on for you to say we're progressing?

I think mr. roogsy needs to see the team winning games and not letting so many goals in before he'll agree that we're passing better.

[Detroit_TFC]

We've had rookie head coaches and veterans. We've had coaches with no MLS experience and coaches with lots of MLS experience. We've had coaches who seemed to fit their system to the roster they had and coaches who allegedly had a known system (Preki) that would give the team a focus. So what's different with AW & Co? Can't say for sure in terms of what assurances they've been given by MLSE but it probably includes not getting fired for their short-term win/loss record.

[RedsOnTop]

I voted No because the poll clearly asks whether Winter is doing a good job as head coach, and as many people point out the coaching side of things looks mighty suspect. However, I believe on the player acquisition side, I would give Mariner & Winter a big thumbs up... especially on the mid-season moves. I think rating them on the moves they made at the start of the season is tough as they had a very short time to assess the players and bring in new ones.

I rate the players who are still here as follows:

Great signings
Frings - top class
Koevermans - love his game intelligence, a little slow, but a class striker
Plata - probably the MVP of the season so far
Eckersley - best defender we have
Johnson - lots of promise good hardworking forward with some touch
Dunfield - hardworking, tough, good passer, better than DeGuzman for a fraction of the cost

OK Signings
Williams - fills a hole at CM, 2nd best defender this season behind Ecks
Soolsma - some flashes of brilliance, a touch too slow mostly a bench / depth player
Martina - somewhat infuriating runs, but can occasionally beat a player, a bench player
Zavarise - makes some smart runs and decent passes but simply a depth signing
Borman - a makeweight in the dero trade who funnily enough leads the team in assists, but frankly isn't good enough defensively, an OK depth player
Yourassowsky - can be infuriating, but has had some good games - an OK bench player

Jury's still out
Iro - seen some improvement, decent on the ground, strong, but slow - jury still out
Marosevic - very promising debut, great runs, good goal and some nice touches, i think he may be able to fill the AM position we lack
Robinson - unknown (has to be better than Harden, no?)
Griffit - unknown
Viator - looks like a depth signing, def. better than Gargan
Gold - one for the future maybe?
Omphroy - ditto?

Bad Signings
Hard to place anyone in this bucket under the Mariner / Winter reign, although I know some people would place Borman or Yourassowsky here I think that might be a bit harsh. Under Mo's reign I think almost every other signing belonged in this bucket.

The future now looks a little brighter, but I think the big question is whether Winter can coach and get the best out of the players he has.

[Pookie]

Not sure what the debate really is about.

Some want him fired. Some see progress.

Some players, like Gordon had negative things to say. Some players, like Eckersley, have positive things to say.

All of this debate about tactics or players or some who are unable to see what others see really just amounts to a pissing contest for the last word... doesn't it?

[pekduck]

Not sure what the debate really is about.

Some want him fired. Some see progress.

Some players, like Gordon had negative things to say. Some players, like Eckersley, have positive things to say.

All of this debate about tactics or players or some who are unable to see what others see really just amounts to a pissing contest for the last word... doesn't it?

are you new to the internet? :D

j/k haha

[Roogsy]

perhaps it is characterization or perhaps it is what you described and what you think you described didn't match :D oh well, it's the interwebs

i actually don't think this team struggles more than it did in the previous season. furthermore, what are 'evidences' to me may be counter evidence to others because our views and perspective are different. at the end of the day, it's all about perception.

to me, the evidences are already aplenty, the determination to make a change, the due diligence in thorough player evaluation, the persistence to not give in in adversaries, the audacity to encourage players to play with their creativity (Ecks' quote), the swiftness in shipping out players who doesn't fit the system, etc etc.

of course, all those can be viewed by others as negativity or bad traits, perception is reality

i have faith at the moment, haha

The evidence you point to is somewhat surprising.

Considering the number of players that were brought in at the beginning of the year, you are basically saying they were brought in before being evaluted, otherwise, they should not have been signed. To me that is not a positive. Essentially we signed players to be trialed instead of trialing players to be signed. That is ass-backwards.

I am not sure what "persistance" you speak of considering we have had more blowout losses than in any other year before and our stats are the worst we've ever had.

Encouraging players to play with creativity is nice, but other than Preki, I am not sure that was ever a problem with this team? And frankly, that is somewhat counter-productive considering the ridigity with the system in which they have been playing and the complaints from other players about the lack of tactics.

And the swiftness to ship players out that don't fit the system? It seems that shipping players out has been done more due to contract difficulties than system implementation.

[Heathen]

No, Kreis didn't have "significantly better record" than Winter. I checked the stats a few weeks ago and in Kreis's first season, he had about 1 win better (in points per game) than Winter did as of a week or so ago. I'm going on Kreis's whole season, NOT simply after he signed players in the transfer window.

Let's not forget that both Schmidt and Kreis inherited teams that had slightly better records the year before they took over than Winter did. And both Schmidt and Kreis saw their teams finished worse than the year before. Actually, Kreis's team saw a drop from 2006-2007 that is close to the drop TFC has seen this season in the standings.

Anyways, none of this proves the original point that we can separate the coaching from the players. RSL sucked under Kreis year 1, Columbus sucked under Schmidt in year 1. And both coaches made massive changes. They got better after massive changes. Again, you can't separate the coaching from the players.

Another way of saying it is this: you can't say that the success Kreis and Sigi had with those teams is simply a product of "good coaching on the field."

If someone can actually name a coach who walked into a shitty MLS team, and turned the team around without bringing in new players, I'd like to know. Cuz I've thought about it and I cannot think of such a coach since I've been watching MLS (2007).

A few weeks ago TFCs PPG was better than now.

Listen no ones expecting Winter to "walk into a shitty MLS team, and turned the team around without bringing in new players" the arguments when the Kreis and Schmid comparisons are made are twofold

1) As of this point in the season Kreis and Schmid had better seasons
2) Kreis had a wealth of MLS experience as did Schmid plus an MLS Cup

Funny how you all keep bringing up Kreis and Schmid but don't want to mention Gullit

[Heathen]

Not sure what the debate really is about.

Some want him fired. Some see progress.

Some players, like Gordon had negative things to say. Some players, like Eckersley, have positive things to say.

All of this debate about tactics or players or some who are unable to see what others see really just amounts to a pissing contest for the last word... doesn't it?

Who wants him fired? go one name names. Exiled Red (who is banned) is the only poster I know who has actually said he wants Winter out.

[Roogsy]

I think mr. roogsy needs to see the team winning games and not letting so many goals in before he'll agree that we're passing better.


In the desert, you're not overly demanding with the quality of water to drink.

At this point I will take 2 league wins in a row to give Winter more of a break.

Any more blowout losses will seal the deal for me though. Lose another game by 3 goals or more and Winter will officially be a worthless coach to me.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Why do you say that? Winter gets 75%+ in every poll

Nice haiku btw

Thanks. I didn't even count it.

I say it because this thread's content does not reflect that number. Disagree?

[Roogsy]

It's very conveniently forgotten every time this discussion takes place.

He brought in droves and droves of new players, in fact. At least 10 by my count, including the picks.

Isn't it more likely that Winter underestimated the league AND the quality of the squad he had created in the preseason a la Gullitt and that we're now reaping the results of those underestimations? :noidea:


This.

And like Heathen mentioned above, it seems nobody wants to bring up the Gullitt name and yet Winter is looking just like him.

[Beach_Red]

Ah, same old same old eh?

As for whether Winter is a good coach, let's ask Richard Eckersley:

Eckersley believes he has thrived under coach Winter’s tutelage.

“With every player on the team, and this is why he’s so good, he tells everybody to not be afraid to express themselves on the field, even in practice. He also teaches and encourages you at the same time, and that’s why I enjoy playing for him,” Eckersley said.


Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/07/29/sp-mls-tfc-eckersley.html?ref=rss#ixzz1TswXN9n1

I don't know, maybe a tean that allows this many goals should be a little more afraid to express themselves ;).

Seriously, the players are really only part of this change-over from the previous regime. As much as Winter was hindered by the previous roster he was also hindered by this "plan" that puts results #4 in the list of priorities. I think we've seen a shift in the past two weeks away from that and now there's more emphasis on winning now - older players have been brought in and the tactics more responsive to whatever opposition they're playing. It's only natural in a results-oriented business with short-term contracts.

[Pookie]

Who wants him fired? go one name names. Exiled Red (who is banned) is the only poster I know who has actually said he wants Winter out.

There are other(s). Just not now. Wait 10 more MLS games.

[Heathen]

There are other(s). Just not now. Wait 10 more MLS games.

Well if you don't have any other names right now then maybe you should wait 10 games as well before posting Some want him fired

[flambe]

A good 500K at least. JDG taking up most of it.

also DeRo and Barrett? I believe it was stated that we are paying part of their salaries too, no?

[Roogsy]

I don't know, maybe a tean that allows this many goals should be a little more afraid to express themselves ;).

Seriously, the players are really only part of this change-over from the previous regime. As much as Winter was hindered by the previous roster he was also hindered by this "plan" that puts results #4 in the list of priorities. I think we've seen a shift in the past two weeks away from that and now there's more emphasis on winning now - older players have been brought in and the tactics more responsive to whatever opposition they're playing. It's only natural in a results-oriented business with short-term contracts.


This is something that does confuse me.

Why is THIS team now Winter's and not the team that we've had for the past 4 months? And why are we to expect better performance NOW and not 4 months ago?

If Winter's pattern holds true (you know, the one that seems to be accepted around here), then he has signed these players to be trialed and if they don't work out they're out at the next transfer window and the process should begin anew.

What's the difference between now and the last period of transfer and trades? Why is expecting wins now ok but it wasn't before?

[__wowza]

Who wants him fired? go one name names. Exiled Red (who is banned) is the only poster I know who has actually said he wants Winter out.

wait, exiled got banhammered? when/whyd that happen? (if i may ask)



also, this is the first time i ever needed a maybe button, but i didnt put it in. personally, i think the teams improving quicker than we've seen in the past. we're miles away from where we were at the start of the season, but man.. that 1 point in 5 games fucking stings. our CCL form is really going to determine my answer net time around.

[Whoop]

No, Kreis didn't have "significantly better record" than Winter. I checked the stats a few weeks ago and in Kreis's first season, he had about 1 win better (in points per game) than Winter did as of a week or so ago. I'm going on Kreis's whole season, NOT simply after he signed players in the transfer window.

Let's not forget that both Schmidt and Kreis inherited teams that had slightly better records the year before they took over than Winter did. And both Schmidt and Kreis saw their teams finished worse than the year before. Actually, Kreis's team saw a drop from 2006-2007 that is close to the drop TFC has seen this season in the standings.

Anyways, none of this proves the original point that we can separate the coaching from the players. RSL sucked under Kreis year 1, Columbus sucked under Schmidt in year 1. And both coaches made massive changes. They got better after massive changes. Again, you can't separate the coaching from the players.

Another way of saying it is this: you can't say that the success Kreis and Sigi had with those teams is simply a product of "good coaching on the field."

If someone can actually name a coach who walked into a shitty MLS team, and turned the team around without bringing in new players, I'd like to know. Cuz I've thought about it and I cannot think of such a coach since I've been watching MLS (2007).

Yes... and in the other thread (the Gordon thread) I delved a little further in terms of the numbers in regards to RSL's 2007 season that you claim was so shitty.

*keep in mind this was prior to the match against Portland. And from the point Kreis took over.




Everyone points to Kreis and his "poor record" after taking over the team in 2007.

Yet, they never lost by more than 2 goals, lost by 2 goals twice, and only gave up 4 goals once.

They were able to eke out some results. And the GD was only -8 in the 29 matches they played. And they didn't bring in 2 DPs halfway through the season.

So yeah, sure his record was 6-13-7. But if you delve further, 11 of those 13 losses were by 1 goal.

By contrast, when TFC loses, they lose big, of their 11 losses, only 3 have been by 1 goal. In fact 4 of the loses have been by 3+ goals.

TFC would be so lucky.

[Pookie]

Well if you don't have any other names right now then maybe you should wait 10 games as well before posting Some want him fired

You mis-read what I wrote. There are other(s) that have stated they want him gone, just not now. One particular fellow thinks that if you did it now, other Managers might not be interested in coming here given the revolving door.

So, waiting at least 10 more games would be enough to widen the net to catch one of these worst to first (well 3rd actually) type managers that are waiting to come here.

[Roogsy]

Yes... and in the other thread (the Gordon thread) I delved a little further in terms of the numbers in regards to RSL's 2007 season that you claim was so shitty.

*keep in mind this was prior to the match against Portland. And from the point Kreis took over.


And let's remember that Kreis did not have a transfer window for 2.5 months upon taking over the club and did not make widespread changes to the club until the off-season.

So his results WERE mostly with the club he inherited as is. And he got better results when he was able to fashion the club more to his liking.

Winter has built one club, did poorly, so he doubled his bets and built another one. One that is twice as expensive. And now he'd better get spectacular results because with the payroll we have now, there are absolutely no excuses. Even Kreis didn't have a payroll like this and he won the MLS Cup.

[brad]

Voted no.

The good:

-I like some of the player moves (both in and out).
-We've had some good results against teams as bad (Vancover and Portland) and worse (Real Estelli) than us.

The Bad
-shambolic defending in the blow-outs and in the Portland game as well.

I'm voting on what I see, not on potential.

For Winter to get a pass from me, I need to see
-Defense sorted
-ability to get results against better quality opposition.

[Whoop]

Also more food for thought.

*this is prior to the matches on the weekend where Vancouver got blown out by LA.



Contrast Toronto vs. Vancouver

Toronto - 11 loses
3 by 1 goal
4 by 2 goals
4 by 3+ goals

Vancouver - 10 loses
8 by 1 goal
2 by 2 goals
0 by 3+ goals

Win/loss record doesn't always tell the whole story. You have to delve a little further into the numbers.

So judging by the numbers between Toronto and Vancouver you could say that Toronto is worse than Vancouver.

However, on paper you could say that Toronto has the better team than Vancouver. So the question then becomes has the current coaching staff gotten the best out of the players they have?

And I think a lot of people will say, yes, Winter hasn't gotten the most out of what he has. So while it's convenient to blame the back line for every loss, why isn't the coaching staff working with eliminating those mistakes? Or is it just strict adherence to the system?

I mean if that's the case... then you don't need a coach. Just a guy to draw up the starting lineup and say "stick to the system".

[DangerRed]

You mis-read what I wrote. There are other(s) that have stated they want him gone, just not now. One particular fellow thinks that if you did it now, other Managers might not be interested in coming here given the revolving door.

So, waiting at least 10 more games would be enough to widen the net to catch one of these worst to first (well 3rd actually) type managers that are waiting to come here.

This actually drives toward an important question: could this be done any other way right now? Could TFC do anything different at this stage, or are we stuck with Winter, for better or worse?

What would sacking the manager do? Would we get someone better, or worse? Or Jimmy Brennan?

I'm firmly in the "negative" camp, and totally think Winter should be held accountable (if not through termination, then through at least a compensation impact) for the season the team has had thus far.

I guess the way I see it is that he's not horrendous enough to be fired right now (though he's not far from it), but I'm not entirely sure that three years of this guy will be good for the club either.

[Roogsy]

Also more food for thought.

*this is prior to the matches on the weekend where Vancouver got blown out by LA.



Win/loss record doesn't always tell the whole story. You have to delve a little further into the numbers.

So judging by the numbers between Toronto and Vancouver you could say that Toronto is worse than Vancouver.

However, on paper you could say that Toronto has the better team than Vancouver. So the question then becomes has the current coaching staff gotten the best out of the players they have?

And I think a lot of people will say, yes, Winter hasn't gotten the most out of what he has. So while it's convenient to blame the back line for every loss, why isn't the coaching staff working with eliminating those mistakes? Or is it just strict adherence to the system?

I mean if that's the case... then you don't need a coach. Just a guy to draw up the starting lineup and say "stick to the system".

This.


This actually drives toward an important question: could this be done any other way right now? Could TFC do anything different at this stage, or are we stuck with Winter, for better or worse?

What would sacking the manager do? Would we get someone better, or worse? Or Jimmy Brennan?

I'm firmly in the "negative" camp, and totally think Winter should be held accountable (if not through termination, then through at least a compensation impact) for the season the team has had thus far.

I guess the way I see it is that he's not horrendous enough to be fired right now (though he's not far from it), but I'm not entirely sure that three years of this guy will be good for the club either.

And this.

[Couchy81]

Here's a snippet from an article on Kreis from 2009:



"I think I'm a little more realistic than I was before I started the job," Kreis said. "I thought it would be a pretty easy job, and I thought a coach could have drastic changes on levels of play."

In the first four or five months on the job, Kreis discovered you also need some talented players to be successful, something RSL lacked in 2007.

Although Kreis has tweaked some aspects of his coaching style, he hasn't changed his core philosophies.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705310982/Real-Salt-Lake-Kreis-coaches-how-he-played.html

I think Winter is going through the same things now that Kreis discovered, and we will see similar articles written about him two years from now.

Analyzing the number of games we lose by more than one goal vs. how many RSL lost by more than one goal is redundant, we have different players, a different coach and a different style of play trying to be implemented.

[Beach_Red]

This is something that does confuse me.

Why is THIS team now Winter's and not the team that we've had for the past 4 months? And why are we to expect better performance NOW and not 4 months ago?

If Winter's pattern holds true (you know, the one that seems to be accepted around here), then he has signed these players to be trialed and if they don't work out they're out at the next transfer window and the process should begin anew.

What's the difference between now and the last period of transfer and trades? Why is expecting wins now ok but it wasn't before?

Well, it's just a hunch really, but I've worked for businesses like MLSE before (and am working for one now, actually). A consultant's report often carries more weight than internal suggestions. I just think that after the town halls and low ticket sales they went out and spent money on the consultant's report and Winter was hired to follow it nd he did just that for a while. But now we're coming up on renewals, the team isn't doing so well and he may have been given more authority to chake things up in the short-term rather than sticking so rigidly to the "plan."

Then Winter said "he" was going to start trading and that was about the first time he said anything that made it sound like this was "his" team. It just seems like a different attitide since then.

And a place like MLSE with lots of middle-management and people fighting for positions doesn't usually hand over complete authority to someone right away, it usually happens in increments.

[Roogsy]

Here's a snippet from an article on Kreis from 2009:



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705310982/Real-Salt-Lake-Kreis-coaches-how-he-played.html

I think Winter is going through the same things now that Kreis discovered, and we will see similar articles written about him two years from now.

Analyzing the number of games we lose by more than one goal vs. how many RSL lost by more than one goal is redundant, we have different players, a different coach and a different style of play trying to be implemented.


Then analysis is worthless and we should just wait for 3 years to go by and hope that he's on the right track.

And if he isn't? And 3 years were wasted, what then?

[Whoop]

The definition of a good coach is a coach who is able to get the most out of the resources he's given.

And yes, while there are players on the team who aren't very good, blaming the players is an easy way out. Besides, really aside from Harden and Frei, and on occasion JDG, which other players that are starters on the team were with the team last year?

And even if TFC gets better players there haven't been any assurances from what has been demonstrated so far that Winter would be capable of getting more out of the players.

Invariably TFC will get better players... it doesn't automatically mean the team will win though.

[brad]

Here's a snippet from an article on Kreis from 2009:



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705310982/Real-Salt-Lake-Kreis-coaches-how-he-played.html

I think Winter is going through the same things now that Kreis discovered, and we will see similar articles written about him two years from now.

Analyzing the number of games we lose by more than one goal vs. how many RSL lost by more than one goal is redundant, we have different players, a different coach and a different style of play trying to be implemented.

This is the grey are with Winter for me.

Is he incapable, or did he mid-judge the league? If he mis-judged is he able to adapt?

In my opinion, we need 5-10 games for this team to get used to playing together before we will have an idea.

[__wowza]

also, as for next months poll, it's going on the grading system. everyones pretty much stated that this is pretty cut and dry, so the new poll should give everyone a bit more input when it comes to specifics. it's also going to have a lot more statistical information, as well as important info like player injuries, and transactions. again, i think we'd get a better gauge on a 1 - 5 scale than we would a simple yes or no. to help with the accuracy of this, input would be greatly appreciated!!

each category gets a specific rating, from 5 (being the highest) to 1 (being the lowest), you calculate the average rating, and if it's got a decimal point at the end of it, you can round either up or down based on an X factor you think the coach brought that month. anyways, here's some things for the criteria:

TACTICS
how did you feel about the tactical choices made? starters? subs? formation?

RESULTS
at the end of the day, how did we do in terms of results? did we tie games we should've lost? lost games we should've won? etc.

EFFICIENCY
how effective was the coach in utilizing the players he has?

COMMUNICATION
how effective was the coach in explaining his outlook and his choices in the paper / on torontofc.ca / on TFCtv / in post match interviews?

TRADES (i know this are mariners thing, but winter has input)
were the trades he made productive or counter-productive?

[Whoop]

Here's a snippet from an article on Kreis from 2009:



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705310982/Real-Salt-Lake-Kreis-coaches-how-he-played.html

I think Winter is going through the same things now that Kreis discovered, and we will see similar articles written about him two years from now.

Analyzing the number of games we lose by more than one goal vs. how many RSL lost by more than one goal is redundant, we have different players, a different coach and a different style of play trying to be implemented.


I thought TFC was implementing a very similar style of play to that of RSL? I mean everyone who says to wait is pointing to RSL as an example of the model to follow.

I think it's painfully obvious that a) Winter overestimated the ability of the players he had at the start of the season, figuring the decent results against European teams in preseason was enough to show him and b) Winter underestimated the talent level of MLS.

I'd still argue that Kreis was able to get more out of what he had in 2007, than Winter has been able to get out of what he has in 2011.

[Couchy81]

Then analysis is worthless and we should just wait for 3 years to go by and hope that he's on the right track.

And if he isn't? And 3 years were wasted, what then?

Well if you were an RSL supporter in 2007, had a rookie coach that management hired against MLS' advice, and had a 6-13-whatever record at this point in the season, you could very much feel exactly like you do now. The results will speak for themselves once enough time passes. It wont take three years to figure out if Winter is working or not.

[brad]

Then analysis is worthless and we should just wait for 3 years to go by and hope that he's on the right track.

And if he isn't? And 3 years were wasted, what then?


Analysis has to be tempered by realistic expectation (like a realistic time frame).

I'm not happy with Winter - but I think we need more time before we can judge.

[Whoop]

Analysis has to be tempered by realistic expectation (like a realistic time frame).

I'm not happy with Winter - but I think we need more time before we can judge.

I can agree with this last point.

This Real Esteli match is big... but he needs to get off to a good start next season otherwise if TFC is in the same boat at this point next season... it's going to get real, real ugly.

[v00d00daddy]

So I just skimmed this thread because it seems like more of the same old but...

I noticed somebody brought up the Eckersley comments and even noticed that a couple people have quoted that post but nobody has taken Eckersley to task on his assessment of winter.

Weird.

If Gordons/Petersona comments were evidence of a disdain for Winter surely Ecks comments hold water too right?

I await to hear what the detractors have to say about Eckerselys opinion of Winter.

My guess is that they continue to gloss over it because nothing can be twisted from the comments.

Somebody vote on behalf of Eck. Lol

[Canary10]

I would be happy with 36 points at the end of this season. 17 points out of the last 10 games. That would show considerable progress for me.

This was not Winter's team until the Dallas game.

[Whoop]

I think Eckersley's comments about Winter have some weight no doubt.

But keep in mind, players love coaches who give them playing time. And players who aren't playing hate the coach. Eckersley is getting more playing time now then he's received in the last 2 years.

If all of a sudden Winter picked up another RB and started playing him over Eckersley, no matter what he thought of Winter's tactics, he would slowly be in the "anti-Winter" camp.

That's why I didn't lambast Winter over Gordon's or Peterson's comments - they weren't playing or lost their starting position - nor am I singing Winter's praises because of Eckersley's comments.

[Heathen]

also, as for next months poll, it's going on the grading system. everyones pretty much stated that this is pretty cut and dry, so the new poll should give everyone a bit more input when it comes to specifics. it's also going to have a lot more statistical information, as well as important info like player injuries, and transactions. again, i think we'd get a better gauge on a 1 - 5 scale than we would a simple yes or no. to help with the accuracy of this, input would be greatly appreciated!!

each category gets a specific rating, from 5 (being the highest) to 1 (being the lowest), you calculate the average rating, and if it's got a decimal point at the end of it, you can round either up or down based on an X factor you think the coach brought that month. anyways, here's some things for the criteria:

TACTICS
how did you feel about the tactical choices made? starters? subs? formation?

RESULTS
at the end of the day, how did we do in terms of results? did we tie games we should've lost? lost games we should've won? etc.

EFFICIENCY
how effective was the coach in utilizing the players he has?

COMMUNICATION
how effective was the coach in explaining his outlook and his choices in the paper / on torontofc.ca / on TFCtv / in post match interviews?

TRADES (i know this are mariners thing, but winter has input)
were the trades he made productive or counter-productive?

Nice! I think that will help reduce the black and white aspects of this argument and add some much needed grey.

_wowza gets a Yes for his August approval rating :D

[Roogsy]

So I just skimmed this thread because it seems like more of the same old but...

I noticed somebody brought up the Eckersley comments and even noticed that a couple people have quoted that post but nobody has taken Eckersley to task on his assessment of winter.

Weird.

If Gordons/Petersona comments were evidence of a disdain for Winter surely Ecks comments hold water too right?

I await to hear what the detractors have to say about Eckerselys opinion of Winter.

My guess is that they continue to gloss over it because nothing can be twisted from the comments.

Somebody vote on behalf of Eck. Lol

What is there to say? Ecks is getting playing time so he likes it here. I don't see any need to twist his words like some did with Gordon. I take them at face value. Gordon's (and others) weren't given that respect. Rationalizations starting popping up instead.

The interesting thing is that Ecks does not really address the reason why he thinks TFC has underperformed. While the others have.

But Ecks likes it here. He is getting playing time here. Good for him. He deserves it, he's played well. It shows Winter likes him because he's played well. My problem with Winter isn't that he works well with good players, it's that he can't manage undertalented players and in MLS, that is a vital skill.

[Pookie]

So I just skimmed this thread because it seems like more of the same old but...

I noticed somebody brought up the Eckersley comments and even noticed that a couple people have quoted that post but nobody has taken Eckersley to task on his assessment of winter.

Weird.

If Gordons/Petersona comments were evidence of a disdain for Winter surely Ecks comments hold water too right?

I await to hear what the detractors have to say about Eckerselys opinion of Winter.

My guess is that they continue to gloss over it because nothing can be twisted from the comments.

Somebody vote on behalf of Eck. Lol

I too am awaiting some commentary on it. Seems that there was quite a lot of debate about focusing on the basics and playing a system that wasn't suited for the talent level.

I doubt we'll get much on it other than a cursory dismissal. It doesn't fit with the agenda.

[menefreghista]

That's why I didn't lambast Winter over Gordon's or Peterson's comments - they weren't playing or lost their starting position - nor am I singing Winter's praises because of Eckersley's comments.

Plus Gordon was having a career season. Definitely one of TFC's best performers when healthy.

[Couchy81]

I'd still argue that Kreis was able to get more out of what he had in 2007, than Winter has been able to get out of what he has in 2011.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that either, I think it had more to do with what I quoted in the article above about getting more talent on the team. If you guys care about analysis this much, lets look at the rosters.

Here is a stat from the RSL website

41 players came and went from the RSL roster between May, 2007 and August, 2008


Too much emphasis has been put on Winter and his tactics as opposed to the quality of the players on the pitch, and I think now with our recent additions we will start to improve just like RSL did

since mid-August, 2007 – the equivalent of two-and-a- half seasons – the team has posted a record of 26-27-21, easily its most successful stretch ever. During that time, not coincidentally just months after Jason Kreis assumed the coaching reins and the arrival of Garth Lagerwey, Real Salt Lake turned the corner from an expansion team struggling to find its way on the field to a competitive, cohesive unit.

http://www.realsaltlake.com/club/about


So mid-August 2011, if we want to compare RSL 2007 vs. TFC 2011, will be the true starting point to see change.

[menefreghista]

What is there to say? Ecks is getting playing time so he likes it here. I don't see any need to twist his words like some did with Gordon. I take them at face value. Gordon's (and others) weren't given that respect. Rationalizations starting popping up instead.

The interesting thing is that Ecks does not really address the reason why he thinks TFC has underperformed. While the others have.

But Ecks likes it here. He is getting playing time here. Good for him. He deserves it, he's played well. It shows Winter likes him because he's played well. My problem with Winter isn't that he works well with good players, it's that he can't manage undertalented players and in MLS, that is a vital skill.

Agreed with you and Whoop on this.

What I do find laughable is that some people act like Eckersley's comments are some kind of smoking gun that prove Winter knows what he's doing.

But I watch TFC's games. That's what I use to judge Winter. And other than when TFC plays shit teams Winter's performance is still wanting.

[Pookie]

Gordon = career season = Winter Coach?

Naw.

[menefreghista]

Gordon = career season = Winter Coach?

Naw.

Which makes Gordon's critique all the more interesting and damning at the same time.

[Pookie]

What is there to say? Ecks is getting playing time so he likes it here. I don't see any need to twist his words like some did with Gordon. I take them at face value. Gordon's (and others) weren't given that respect. Rationalizations starting popping up instead.

The interesting thing is that Ecks does not really address the reason why he thinks TFC has underperformed. While the others have.

But Ecks likes it here. He is getting playing time here. Good for him. He deserves it, he's played well. It shows Winter likes him because he's played well. My problem with Winter isn't that he works well with good players, it's that he can't manage undertalented players and in MLS, that is a vital skill.

Yeah, ok.

Not sure how "He also teaches and encourages you at the same time, and that’s why I enjoy playing for him" can be dismissed because of "playing time"

But whatever. Got it. You want him fired in 10 games. Thanks.

[Whoop]

Again... players like coaches who play them.

Eckersley has gotten more playing time this season than he has in the last 2 years.

So if you read between the lines "I enjoy playing for him" is really "I'm just happy he's playing me."

Like I said if Winter replaced Eckersley with another RB down the road, I guarantee you 100% that Eckersley's demeanour would change.

You want to piss off a player? Don't play him.

You want to get "love" from a player? Play him.

That goes for any sport, any player, in any league.

[Beach_Red]

Yeah, ok.

Not sure how "He also teaches and encourages you at the same time, and that’s why I enjoy playing for him" can be dismissed because of "playing time"

But whatever. Got it. You want him fired in 10 games. Thanks.

Please don't make this about "fired or not fired." people are giving reasons why they aren't happy with the job done so far, that's all. If you don't use the word 'fired' there's a good chance it won't come up in this thread again.

[ManUtd4ever]

That's where I continue to disagree with this board. Considering the rosters he has put out in every game are mostly players he has brought in, I don't see how one can argue that he "inherited" these players unless we're complaining about guys like Frei?

I think it comes back to defining what a "good coach" is and perhaps all of us have difference definitions for that classification.

For me, one of those characteristics is a coach that gets the best out of his players, good or bad. If he has a below-average roster and achieves average results then that is an indication of a good coach. Much like a poor coach would be one that has an above average roster that achieves average results. There is no doubt Winter had an average roster (perhaps even below-average) in the first-half of the season but he did not achieve below-average results, he achieved shockingly awful results and to me that is telling.

I think with the changes made, this roster should be a playoff calibre team, but will Winter get the most out of them or will we muddle through our season? That is my fear. What benefit is it to have a $5million payroll if we will not be able to beat teams with half the talent/payroll?

Time will tell of course.

If we are referring to the first half of the season, the list of inherited players went beyond Frei, did it not? Santos, JDG, Peterson, Harden, Gargan, Sturgis, Henry, Morgan, Stinson, Cann, Attakora... I'm not suggesting that all of these players are a liability of course, I'm just pointing out the numbers.

I do agree that Winter and Mariner were responsible for acquiring at least half of the players that started the majority of games, but even if a coach is forced to play 3-5 players on a regular basis that he didn't identify, it can be a hindrance in achieving results if those players do not have the attributes that a coach covets for his preferred tactical approach.

Does that influential factor absolve Winter of the horrendous regular season results thus far? Absolutely not, which is why I have yet to approve of him as a capable coach in this league.

However, if the current group of players that comprise the first team go on to form the nucleus of a successful club, there is no question in my mind that Winter and Mariner will be deserving of all the accolades.

[v00d00daddy]

Which makes Gordon's critique all the more interesting and damning at the same time.

And there you have it. Ecks comments aren't a "smoking gun" but Gordons are "damning"

Whatever.

[Gazza]

Again... players like coaches who play them.

Eckersley has gotten more playing time this season than he has in the last 2 years.

So if you read between the lines "I enjoy playing for him" is really "I'm just happy he's playing me."

Like I said if Winter replaced Eckersley with another RB down the road, I guarantee you 100% that Eckersley's demeanour would change.

You want to piss off a player? Don't play him.

You want to get "love" from a player? Play him.

That goes for any sport, any player, in any league.

Maybe it also has something to do with the environment they were developed in.

Eckersley was treated like a professional as a teenager and grew up in a professional environment. He knows what to expect from european training camps.

The moaning coming from north american players might have something to do with the way they were developed.

[Whoop]

Please don't make this about "fired or not fired." people are giving reasons why they aren't happy with the job done so far, that's all. If you don't use the word 'fired' there's a good chance it won't come up in this thread again.

Exactly.

I've never advocated firing him.

In fact, at the beginning of the season, I was a fan saying "you have to give him time". Saw some good signs early but then it just went to smoke.

And really it was until they brought in Frings and Koevermans that I've seen another slight improvement.

But again, the point is that improvement didn't come from coaching.

And the word at the start of the year was "rebuilding". You don't rebuild by bringing in two guys who are 32+. I mean I wasn't the biggest DeRo fan around but when they traded DeRo, the deal was to make the team younger and to rebuild.

If the plan to rebuild was to get two 32+ they could have just kept DeRo.

What really happened is a) Winter underestimated the talent of the league and overestimated the talent he had... thus getting poor results, b) he wasn't able to get the most out of the younger squad so c) he had to bring in some more experience, older, expensive players to get some results in order to salvage his CV.

Winter was out of a job for 18 months. He fails here... he's likely not coaching a 1st division team in any league of relevance for a long, long time. I mean he'll follow Gullit to Eastern Europe and wind up coaching in first division Azerbaijan.

[Whoop]

Maybe it also has something to do with the environment they were developed in.

Eckersley was treated like a professional as a teenager and grew up in a professional environment. He knows what to expect from european training camps.

The moaning coming from north american players might have something to do with the way they were developed.

That is a possibility that has been discussed.

Won't deny that.

But at the same time the majority of the players in the league and in the future... are and will be from North America. So there also has to be some adjustments from the coaching staff.

Like I've said previously, good coaches also adapt to their environment.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

yeah and its not like Peterson and Gordon didnt get played, they played plenty when they were healthy, certainly didnt change their opinion on their situation

[Gazza]

Didn't Preki bring in players from the Azerbaijan First Division? ;)

[menefreghista]

And there you have it. Ecks comments aren't a "smoking gun" but Gordons are "damning"

Whatever.

Get over it. I thought the Eckersley article was interesting too. More good work by Molinaro.

But it doesn't mean as much as you want it to.

But I do see how it is more fodder for the blind believers. Who gives a shit if the team plays like crap, as long as our fravourite new player loves the coach...

[PopePouri]

That is a possibility that has been discussed.

Won't deny that.

But at the same time the majority of the players in the league and in the future... are and will be from North America. So there also has to be some adjustments from the coaching staff.

Like I've said previously, good coaches also adapt to their environment.

Right but when you here stuff about the amount of passing they did in training as something that's negative. That's not entirely based on reason.

[backbeat]

it's pretty straight forward...

if the team wins it's because good players were brought in and they did it alone.

if the team loses it's because Winter sucks and it has nothing to do with the players.

if an exiting player belittles the coaches and the system it's because it's true

if an existing player praises the coach and the system it's because obviously he would do that since he's playing and it has little validity.

geez, very simple - discussion over....

[Shakes McQueen]

I continue to tentatively approve of the job Winter is doing, though I have been puzzled by some of his tactical decisions, and match day line-up choices.

TFC did well in the transfer market overall, though there is still work to be done on our back four.

- Scott

[menefreghista]

Right but when you here stuff about the amount of passing they did in training as something that's negative. That's not entirely based on reason.

The complaint was that other parts of training were being neglected. And considering how lost the team often looks it sounded very plausible.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Get over it. I thought the Eckersley article was interesting too. More good work by Molinaro.

But it doesn't mean as much as you want it to.

But I do see how it is more fodder for the blind believers. Who gives a shit if the team plays like crap, as long as our fravourite new player loves the coach...


it's pretty straight forward...

if the team wins it's because good players were brought in and they did it alone.

if the team loses it's because Winter sucks and it has nothing to do with the players.

if an exiting player belittles the coaches and the system it's because it's true

if an existing player praises the coach and the system it's because obviously he would do that since he's playing and it has little validity.

geez, very simple - discussion over....


The truth being somewhere in between minus the harsh words and sarcasm.

It's game day which means everyone has another opportunity to pick things apart in a little over 8hrs.

:scarf::scarf::scarf:

[Shakes McQueen]

it's pretty straight forward...

if the team wins it's because good players were brought in and they did it alone.

if the team loses it's because Winter sucks and it has nothing to do with the players.

if an exiting player belittles the coaches and the system it's because it's true

if an existing player praises the coach and the system it's because obviously he would do that since he's playing and it has little validity.

geez, very simple - discussion over....

I dislike patronizing sarcasm, whether it's coming from someone like menefreghista on one side of the debate, or you on the other.

- Scott

[menefreghista]

The truth being somewhere in between minus the harsh words and sarcasm.

I do think there is some truth to that.

[Canary10]

Some people aren't giving credit to Winter for landing Frings and Koevermans. I guarantee NEITHER would be here if he wasn't coaching. They both made a choice to play in the kind of system Winter is implementing. So even if "the players brought in" are the reason for showing improvement lately, Winter is the reason those players are here in the first place.

[Pachuco]

Some people aren't giving credit to Winter for landing Frings and Koevermans. I guarantee NEITHER would be here if he wasn't coaching. They both made a choice to play in the kind of system Winter is implementing. So even if "the players brought in" are the reason for showing improvement lately, Winter is the reason those players are here in the first place.

Hard to disagree with that.

[backbeat]

I dislike patronizing sarcasm, whether it's coming from someone like menefreghista on one side of the debate, or you on the other.

- Scott

you may call it sarcasm, and to a degree it is, but as far as i have read those a the thoughts in a nut-shell. doesn't matter what the result is, it will be rationalized to suit the opinion - that was my point.

[Pookie]

Please don't make this about "fired or not fired." people are giving reasons why they aren't happy with the job done so far, that's all. If you don't use the word 'fired' there's a good chance it won't come up in this thread again.

Some people have used many words before in order to paint a picture that supports their "end game." We can pretend there is no end game or we can acknowledge that some have one.

Some disapprove of Winter for specific reasons but are willing to see it through. Others support him but ultimately want to see some results over the next block of time. You can have a discussion with folks from both camps.

My challenge is with the small percentage that have an immovable agenda and quite frankly, I'd rather have those agendas out on the table so that we are all clear as to the motivation behind the comments.

[menefreghista]

My challenge is with the small percentage that have an immovable agenda and quite frankly, I'd rather have those agendas out on the table so that we are all clear as to the motivation behind the comments.

I have no agenda. I just want to see the team do well. If this team starts winning and playing well I would be the first to admit I was wrong about Winter.

My challenge to all the blind faithers is what are the signs that Winter is doing a good job? Most don't ever have a real answer to that question.


Some people aren't giving credit to Winter for landing Frings and Koevermans. I guarantee NEITHER would be here if he wasn't coaching. They both made a choice to play in the kind of system Winter is implementing. So even if "the players brought in" are the reason for showing improvement lately, Winter is the reason those players are here in the first place.

I think Klinsmann had some help in that as well, particularly in the Frings case.

I bet the money isn't bad either.

[jabbronies]

Can't argue that some of his game day decisions are questionable. You can chalk it up to rookie mistakes for sure.

However, there are some decisions he has made that some people don't agree with that I feel were good decisions. (i.e Plata starting vs. subbing in).

We all just need to remember that opinions differ for one reason or another. It all depends on how that person is viewing the situation.

[Beach_Red]

Some people have used many words before in order to paint a picture that supports their "end game." We can pretend there is no end game or we can acknowledge that some have one.

Some disapprove of Winter for specific reasons but are willing to see it through. Others support him but ultimately want to see some results over the next block of time. You can have a discussion with folks from both camps.

My challenge is with the small percentage that have an immovable agenda and quite frankly, I'd rather have those agendas out on the table so that we are all clear as to the motivation behind the comments.

Well, Exiled (and a couple of others) has been banned so we're down to very few with an immovable agenda. You may want it out in the open but that doesn't seem to be what's happening.

[ManUtd4ever]

Well, Exiled (and a couple of others) has been banned so we're down to very few with an immovable agenda. You may want it out in the open but that doesn't seem to be what's happening.

I don't think anyone has ever been banned for expressing an opinion Beach. It's the manner of expression that counts.

[backbeat]

I have no agenda. I just want to see the team do well. If this team starts winning and playing well I would be the first to admit I was wrong about Winter.

My challenge to all the blind faithers is what are the signs that Winter is doing a good job? Most don't ever have a real answer to that question.




i really don't know who the 'blind fathers' are. All i've read, me included, are folks that say we'd like to give him at least a year to build his team and structure and then see what he delivers in year 2. not a continual revolving door.

to me the ardent people are the ones who seem to have a hate-on for Winter no matter the result - i.e. my 'sarcastic' response above.

can anyone name this blind-faither in Winter?

[Oldtimer]

I don't think anyone has ever been banned for expressing an opinion Beach. It's the manner of expression that counts.

Just to set things straight, Exiled is not banned, he was given a 7-day time-out (temporary ban) by a group decision of the moderators. It had nothing to do with his position on Winter, per se.

[rocker]

can anyone name this blind-faither in Winter?

It's like calling people who complain about Winter "The Myopics"... it sure doesn't respect the debate. :(

[Gazza]

Sounds to me like 76.81% of us are blind-faithers and the other 23.19% are the enlightened.

[Roogsy]

Some people aren't giving credit to Winter for landing Frings and Koevermans. I guarantee NEITHER would be here if he wasn't coaching. They both made a choice to play in the kind of system Winter is implementing. So even if "the players brought in" are the reason for showing improvement lately, Winter is the reason those players are here in the first place.


Actually, according to their own words, Klinsmann was the catalyst for these trades.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

For Frings it was Klinnsman, I think Koevermans was all Winter

[Roogsy]

can anyone name this blind-faither in Winter?


When you entrust someone with a task without evidence to support the reason for that trust or explanations as to why he is suited for the job, it's blind faith.

When you allow someone to dictate the building of an entire organization without demanding to show experience in that very activity, it's blind faith.

When you defend someone's performance on the basis of some yet unattained future performance and fail to establish benchmarks and measurables along the way, it's blind faith.

You don't have to say the words "I believe" in order for your actions to say it for you.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Most faith is blind. As is hope. My support is less calculated and less conditional.

[backbeat]

For Frings it was Klinnsman, I think Koevermans was all Winter

but there is no way Frings would have come if he didn't believe in what the coaching staff were doing purely based on Klinnsman i would imagine...except for blind faith that is....(just kidding):rolleyes:

[Roogsy]

Most faith is blind. As is hope. My support is less calculated and less conditional.

But not all faith is blind as you correctly acknowledge. And in this case...which do you think applies?

As for support, it's not about being conditional otherwise those that are not happy would not still be here. Its about whether the support is done with a measure of accountability. Like parents, you can't claim to love your child without putting measures of restrictions and discipline in place.

[backbeat]

When you entrust someone with a task without evidence to support the reason for that trust or explanations as to why he is suited for the job, it's blind faith.

When you allow someone to dictate the building of an entire organization without demanding to show experience in that very activity, it's blind faith.

When you defend someone's performance on the basis of some yet unattained future performance and fail to establish benchmarks and measurables along the way, it's blind faith.

You don't have to say the words "I believe" in order for your actions to say it for you.

it's the catch-phrased used on anyone who doesn't immediately hang Winter out to dry here. Those willing to let him do his job for a year or so and see the results by those who wish he was never hired in the first place.

but the fact is i haven't seen a poster here who has expressed blind faith in winter in any fashion.

[Roogsy]

Yes because in order for someone to demonstrate blind faith, they have to say the words. :rolleyes:

That's all I will say on that.

[Pookie]

I have no agenda. I just want to see the team do well. If this team starts winning and playing well I would be the first to admit I was wrong about Winter.

My challenge to all the blind faithers is what are the signs that Winter is doing a good job? Most don't ever have a real answer to that question.



We are agreed on the part about wanting to see the team do well.

As to the second question, it all depends on your measuring stick and the timeline you believe is realistic.

If you are short term results focused then clearly the record hasn't been good at all. There is probably no answer to satisfy anyone with that expectation.

I could highlight that with a poor roster, Winter was able to post a winning record against similar teams with weak rosters. At the end of the day though, next to last place isn't a pretty picture.

If you are longer term in focus you likely believe that Winter has to change the culture, talent level and tactics before we can even start to bring results to the front of this discussion.

In this regard, he has been very active in removing players that he felt didn't fit his model. He presumably rid himself of major headaches and made moves to address this "sense of entitlement" (or Canadian-USA rift) that many departing players and managers spoke of.

Our roster has been completely overhauled with the bulk of the action coming during this transfer window. Now, whether this culture and talent level overhaul is enough to improve results is the next question to tackle for the long term group. But you aren't going to get an answer on this one until well into the next season.

[ManUtd4ever]

When you entrust someone with a task without evidence to support the reason for that trust or explanations as to why he is suited for the job, it's blind faith.


Yes, in Winter, MLSE took a gamble on a coach without experience at the professional level. Based on his experience with Ajax and his vision for the infrastructure of the franchise, it was a calculated risk that MLSE was willing to take, whether we agree with the decision or not. Paul Mariner added much need credibility and MLS experience to the management team, so I wouldn't go as far as to call the hiring of the new regime blind faith. Based on your interpretation, many MLS clubs have hired coaches based on blind faith.



When you allow someone to dictate the building of an entire organization without demanding to show experience in that very activity, it's blind faith.


See above.



When you defend someone's performance on the basis of some yet unattained future performance and fail to establish benchmarks and measurables along the way, it's blind faith.


The majority of posters have not defended Winter's performance, they have merely indicated that stability is crucial at this juncture in the existence of the franchise, and that it would take a full season (including a couple of transfer windows) for for the new regime to firmly have an imprint on the club. The most common benchmarks for success that have been suggested on this forum are advancing to the CCL group stage, and qualifying for the post season next year. The measurables have been set for the most part, not necessarily in accordance with your expectations.


You don't have to say the words "I believe" in order for your actions to say it for you.

I am reserving judgement of Winter's coaching abilities until I observe how the club performs over the duration of the season, and hopefully, the CCL. My position does not indicate that I have blind faith in Winter in any way, shape, or form.



Sorry Shakes, I'm going to steal your post from a couple of weeks ago...

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"

-Obi Wan Kanobi

[rocker]

Yes because in order for someone to demonstrate blind faith, they have to say the words. :rolleyes:

That's all I will say on that.

To characterize someone as having "blind faith" is purely subjective.
You pick the categories by which to judge the person in question.

Calling someone "blind" is also a pejorative. Would you like to be called blind? Or better yet, a "can't see the forest for the trees" kind of person, Roogsy?

If people want to toss around pejorative phrases like "blind faithers", they should at least have the courage to name who those people are.

I'm certainly not one. I have a "wait and see" attitude. Having a wait and see attitude is not "blind faith." But if "blind faith" is intended to target someone like me, I'd be offended by that.

[backbeat]

Yes because in order for someone to demonstrate blind faith, they have to say the words. :rolleyes:

That's all I will say on that.

of course one wouldn't have to say the exact words but who here insinuates it??

again i see folks willing to give him a year to build his team and style and then judge the results through year 2 - if that's what you imply blind faith to be, then yes i'm there.

[Fort York Redcoat]

But not all faith is blind as you correctly acknowledge. And in this case...which do you think applies?

As for support, it's not about being conditional otherwise those that are not happy would not still be here. Its about whether the support is done with a measure of accountability. Like parents, you can't claim to love your child without putting measures of restrictions and discipline in place.

Again this is a difference in definition of support. Some would think that simply being here or at the stadium is enough. Some define the conditions differently but this is all a digression from the matter of Winter.

I leave it till season's end but it doesn't mean I can't measure his decisions game by game.

[123 elite]

Great signings
Frings - top class
Koevermans - love his game intelligence, a little slow, but a class striker
Plata - probably the MVP of the season so far
Eckersley - best defender we have
Johnson - lots of promise good hardworking forward with some touch
Dunfield - hardworking, tough, good passer, better than DeGuzman for a fraction of the cost

OK Signings
Williams - fills a hole at CM, 2nd best defender this season behind Ecks
Soolsma - some flashes of brilliance, a touch too slow mostly a bench / depth player
Martina - somewhat infuriating runs, but can occasionally beat a player, a bench player
Zavarise - makes some smart runs and decent passes but simply a depth signing
Borman - a makeweight in the dero trade who funnily enough leads the team in assists, but frankly isn't good enough defensively, an OK depth player
Yourassowsky - can be infuriating, but has had some good games - an OK bench player

Jury's still out
Iro - seen some improvement, decent on the ground, strong, but slow - jury still out
Marosevic - very promising debut, great runs, good goal and some nice touches, i think he may be able to fill the AM position we lack
Robinson - unknown (has to be better than Harden, no?)
Griffit - unknown
Viator - looks like a depth signing, def. better than Gargan
Gold - one for the future maybe?
Omphroy - ditto?




Thats a horrendous number of players to bring in. It doesn't even include Tchani, Gordon and Stefanovic. Thats 22. Tell me that last season's team needed that kind of overhaul. I've never heard of any coaching staff do that anywhere.
I don't see how you can rate 4 recent aquisitions as great signings after 2 weeks.
Nothing I have seen this year at any stage makes me think Winter knows what he is doing. Number 1 reason being the player turnover. And i include some of the outs as well as most of the ins. Although new players need time to gell there has been nothing in any game since the July arrivals that show the kind of improvment we need. Scraping a draw against Portland and a win against a team like Estell are nothing to get excited about. For our defence to operate the way it does and the selections used in that defence clearly show that there is no plan here. Selection and positioning seem to be drawn out of a hat and tactics ? What tactics. Portlands first goal was absolute textbook failure for our defence. How many players and how much time does he need? We have managed what is it now 3 league wins. 2 of them against expansion teams. We have record defeats. Even the stats listed here for July are horrific. 16 goals conceded. I actually don't blame the players. I mean they probably can't remember the names of their teammates never mind read what their next move might be. Epic fail of a season.

[PopePouri]

Sounds to me like 76.81% of us are blind-faithers and the other 23.19% are the enlightened.

As it always is. Fuck I wish I was as smart as them.

[Pookie]

Thats a horrendous number of players to bring in. It doesn't even include Tchani, Gordon and Stefanovic. Thats 22. Tell me that last season's team needed that kind of overhaul. I've never heard of any coaching staff do that anywhere.


I guess there is no need or an overhaul when you've missed the playoffs 4 years running. Best to stick with the guys that got you there, eh?

[ensco]

Isn't this a 100% repeat of the Winter thread from 2 weeks ago?

Is this an "I should get out more" moment?

[Azerban]

1 point out of a possible 15

enough said

[123 elite]

I guess there is no need or an overhaul when you've missed the playoffs 4 years running. Best to stick with the guys that got you there, eh?


Last years team didn't miss the playoffs 4 years running. Last time i checked we had a player that was our highest scorer 2 years ruunning shipped out. Also Barret was i think if not our second highest scorer was not far behind. GONE. Attakora and Cann were widely thought to be fairly solid. Half gone and other injured. Labrocca... solid midfielder ....GONE yet good enough for the allstars. That leaves Frei from what pretty much everyone on here agreed were our fairly decent performers. NO. We ship almost all of them then play a a rotation of Gargan & Harden at the back with what seems to be anyone we can find that fits a shirt and trust that because someone with AJAX on his CV says so. BS. Managers tend to keep or tinker with the decent spine of a team not butcher it and experiment. I actually dont have a problem with experimentation but don't expect me to pony up for a season ticket at 4 figures while you get it right.

I dont have answers. I still would keep winter. I dont fully understand the Cap and trade apect of MLS but if i was in charge Dero would be on about 800k DP for 2years with a non passing fine clause. JDG would be history. Attakora would be here and at least 10 of winters input would not even have been considered.

What Winter is doing is nothing more than blind experimentation. Nobody can convince me that anyone with half a football brain wpould think that Iro is a preference to Attaokora. Even using the law of averages Winter's scores have been numbering less than average. I would say that Plata, Frings and Ecks have been the only bright lights this year.Thats 3 of 22. I really wonder what some other manager adding those three to last years line up would have achieved. I am alost certain it would be better than three wins.

On that 3 wins thing. You realise that considering that 2 were against expansion teams... what outrage on these boards would there have been last year had Preki made it to August with one win under his belt because compared to last year thats really where we are at.

[Brooker]

Labrocca... solid midfielder ....GONE yet good enough for the allstars.

Good grief. The Labrocca that played for Toronto FC was nowhere near good enough to be an All Star.

This year and last year for him are night and day.

[Gazza]

Who's Labrocca? I never noticed a Labrocca wearing a TFC jersey.

[brad]

Last year we were a terrible team playing boring, uninspired football. We looked better than we were because DeRo would lift us above the level we were at from time to time.

Cann and Attakora were decent defenders at winning the ball and booting it up field straight back to the opposition, which accounted for wave after wave of pressure which led to us conceeding goals.

Frei - your right, he was awesome. He had to be because he faced more shots than any other keeper in the league.

[Couchy81]

Thats a horrendous number of players to bring in. It doesn't even include Tchani, Gordon and Stefanovic. Thats 22. Tell me that last season's team needed that kind of overhaul. I've never heard of any coaching staff do that anywhere.
I don't see how you can rate 4 recent aquisitions as great signings after 2 weeks.
Nothing I have seen this year at any stage makes me think Winter knows what he is doing. Number 1 reason being the player turnover. And i include some of the outs as well as most of the ins. Although new players need time to gell there has been nothing in any game since the July arrivals that show the kind of improvment we need. Scraping a draw against Portland and a win against a team like Estell are nothing to get excited about. For our defence to operate the way it does and the selections used in that defence clearly show that there is no plan here. Selection and positioning seem to be drawn out of a hat and tactics ? What tactics. Portlands first goal was absolute textbook failure for our defence. How many players and how much time does he need? We have managed what is it now 3 league wins. 2 of them against expansion teams. We have record defeats. Even the stats listed here for July are horrific. 16 goals conceded. I actually don't blame the players. I mean they probably can't remember the names of their teammates never mind read what their next move might be. Epic fail of a season.

Player turnover makes me think Winter knows what he is doing. Firstly it means he sees how shitty the players that were on our team last year were and still are. Second it means he has a plan and with Mariner's help is putting together a full team with the qualities he needs to make his plan succeed. If he kept most of Preki's guys and we had climbed up a few more spots in the standings to where Preki was at this stage last year, would that make you happier?

Honestly guys, are you really that torn up about the dismantling of Preki's team? Last year was the epic failure. The year after narrowly missing the playoffs, and coming in with high hopes with an MLS experienced coach that was going to build a defensive powerhouse and solidify our playoff spot. Epic failure.

This year is starting from scratch.

If we can still put on a good showing for the CCL and finish strong for the 2nd half of the MLS season I will consider this season a success, playoffs or not.

Most of the negativity surrounding this team is premature. I did not say everything was perfect, and it's evident Winter has made newbie mistakes, I'm just talking about most of the negativity and the doomsday scenarios people are envisioning in the coming years.

I know it's going to take wins to make some of you believe what I'm saying, but I can see victories coming our way based on what I've seen from Winter's team up until now.

[brad]

What Klinsmanns vision that Winter is trying to implement is plain as day to see. In a physical league with very limited technical or tactical play, they are trying to put together a different sort of team that will posess the football an make other teams chase shadows.

I suspect the theory is that if they can implement this, TFC will not just become good, but completely dominant. I'm of the opinion it's a reasonable idea.

Of course the questions surround whether or not this will work, if we have the right people implementing it, if it can be done within thenconfines of the salary cap. Time will tell.

[Yohan]

Thats a horrendous number of players to bring in. It doesn't even include Tchani, Gordon and Stefanovic. Thats 22. Tell me that last season's team needed that kind of overhaul. I've never heard of any coaching staff do that anywhere.
I do believe Jason Kreis culled the team he inherited so that eventually only one player stayed (Andy Williams). though I don't think he had this much of turnover rate on first year he ended up coaching

[Yohan]

What Klinsmanns vision that Winter is trying to implement is plain as day to see. In a physical league with very limited technical or tactical play, they are trying to put together a different sort of team that will posess the football an make other teams chase shadows.

I suspect the theory is that if they can implement this, TFC will not just become good, but completely dominant. I'm of the opinion it's a reasonable idea.

Of course the questions surround whether or not this will work, if we have the right people implementing it, if it can be done within then confines of the salary cap. Time will tell.
It can be done. See Seattle, RSL and Dallas.

[123 elite]

Last year we were a terrible team playing boring, uninspired football. We looked better than we were because DeRo would lift us above the level we were at from time to time.

Cann and Attakora were decent defenders at winning the ball and booting it up field straight back to the opposition, which accounted for wave after wave of pressure which led to us conceeding goals.

Frei - your right, he was awesome. He had to be because he faced more shots than any other keeper in the league.

This year we have defenders that pass the ball across the backiline to the opposition so is that an improvment? What do call that? A classy give away ? My point was we had something that had an element of quality about it and instead of working with it, it was tossed. How many minutes have Cann and Attakora spent on the same field this year? Yet Harden has played how much? What has been brought in is shipping far far more goals. If you like conceding in a prettier fashion then fair enough. i dont.

[123 elite]

Player turnover makes me think Winter knows what he is doing. Firstly it means he sees how shitty the players that were on our team last year were and still are. Second it means he has a plan and with Mariner's help is putting together a full team with the qualities he needs to make his plan succeed. If he kept most of Preki's guys and we had climbed up a few more spots in the standings to where Preki was at this stage last year, would that make you happier?

Yes actually. I would. I don't see any of the improvment people on here see. I believe you just want to see it. And if Winter knows what he is doing then explain why he has brought in players only to move them on again in a few months. What was it he saw in them in the first place to bring them here? If its just moving pawns around the chessboard until something better comes along then there anybody with half a football brain could do that including most people that watch from the stands. When i read these boards i am astonished at some of the stats people can pull up about some bench player from Dallas or kansas. Yet we have a manager that seems to play pin the tail on the donkey with players yet he gats paid for it.

[123 elite]

Who's Labrocca? I never noticed a Labrocca wearing a TFC jersey.

Are you serious or just the spelling police?

[Pookie]

Last years team didn't miss the playoffs 4 years running. Last time i checked we had a player that was our highest scorer 2 years ruunning shipped out.

The same player that New York, who want to win now, shipped out 13 games later? Yeah. Ok.

Advantage Winter


... but don't expect me to pony up for a season ticket at 4 figures while you get it right.

Choices are what makes the world go round.


I dont fully understand the Cap and trade apect of MLS

Kind of important if you are going to pass judgement on managing a roster to know how the cap works


... but if i was in charge Dero would be on about 800k DP for 2years with a non passing fine clause.

The same DeRo that New York and now DC wouldn't give a DP tag to and what's a non passing fine clause? I'm sure that clause would fly. :facepalm:


JDG would be history.

On a $2.9M buyout and a maximum cap hit?


Attakora would be here and at least 10 of winters input would not even have been considered.

The same Attakora (whom I like) who indicated he wouldn't be back next year?


Nobody can convince me that anyone with half a football brain wpould think that Iro is a preference to Attaokora.

Attakora was traded, in a package, for Johnson. Iro was acquired for Tchani. Separate deals. As for preference, how valuable is a player that won't sign a long term contract with the club? Who would play CB next year?

Again, I like Attakora. Very personable guy, took time to chat with my son on a few occasions about his own soccer. Never complained about his salary and I wish him well.

Practically speaking, we were going to lose the asset and acquired pieces that better fit.

[brad]

This year we have defenders that pass the ball across the backiline to the opposition so is that an improvment? What do call that? A classy give away ? My point was we had something that had an element of quality about it and instead of working with it, it was tossed. How many minutes have Cann and Attakora spent on the same field this year? Yet Harden has played how much? What has been brought in is shipping far far more goals. If you like conceding in a prettier fashion then fair enough. i dont.

I callie a team being re-built that does not have the final line up in place. Or one that does but has not had enough time to gel. Or one that does but but simply isn't good enough. Time will tell.

We will have to agree to disagree about last years team. One last thing on them though. The reason we didn't concede as much was because we packed the midfield, not because our defence was good.

[brad]

Yes actually. I would. I don't see any of the improvment people on here see. I believe you just want to see it. And if Winter knows what he is doing then explain why he has brought in players only to move them on again in a few months. What was it he saw in them in the first place to bring them here? If its just moving pawns around the chessboard until something better comes along then there anybody with half a football brain could do that including most people that watch from the stands. When i read these boards i am astonished at some of the stats people can pull up about some bench player from Dallas or kansas. Yet we have a manager that seems to play pin the tail on the donkey with players yet he gats paid for it.

Because they didn't work out and he had the ability to move them. No manager in the world, at any level gets the transfer market right all of the time. Even the best in the business get it wrong, and often.

[123 elite]

your points....

Doesnt concern me what NY did or what DC are going to do. He was by far our top scorer and the best player we have ever had and we now can't score. And he scored in the first game this year. That kind of stuff happens a lot in football. I remember Ian Rush At Juve. Would you have made the same arguement there ?

I fully understand my choice. It will be TFCs loss though.

Like i said i dont know what i would do because i dont fully understand the cap system. But i dont get paid to understand it.

Not my best funny moment admitted.... deros problem was not passing when he should. A good manager could easily sort that out. Hence the 'non passing fine' clause. (head in hand shaky thing too.)

JDG is a useless waste of space. Has never had a game that merited a 10th of his price tag. Who cares what it costs in cap hit or however that works. It would still be better than paying him.

Attakora trade ... whatever the permutation of trade it was, its still a replacement in the backline. How that trade occurs is irrelevant. And we are really concerned with the length of contracts now? We appear to be pining hopes on someone that could be drawing a pension in a few years.

[123 elite]

Because they didn't work out and he had the ability to move them. No manager in the world, at any level gets the transfer market right all of the time. Even the best in the business get it wrong, and often.

And most mangers dont make that decision in a matter of weeks. And most managers who are supposed to know when aplayer isnt working out play them well beyond when its bloody obvious. Based on what you've said Peterson, Gargan and Harden should have been dumped in early May. And Iro will be gone next week. Yet that is not happening. No consistency in the argument. Thats why i think he has no clue.

[Gazza]

Are you serious or just the spelling police?

I didn't notice him enough on the field to know how to spell his name correctly, let alone to get so worked up about him not being here anymore.

Maybe he had a no passing fine clause in his contract and didn't hold onto the ball long enough for me to notice him;).

[DichioTFC]

Voted in favour. Met my expectations for the season as of last night, will continue to vote Yes until the end of the year.


ALSO: i was thinking of switching it up next month. making it a grading system with a certain criteria instead of a simple yes or no. whats everyone think?



Grading system would be better at the end of the sample (i.e. the end of the season) rather than arbitrarily midseason.

Also, I LOVE the fact that theres no 'Maybe' option. Well done good sir. :hump:

[TFCRegina]

I voted no because there's no maybe.

[Roogsy]

Other than to be completely disenamoured with Winter like some of us, for those that have had no expectations of this year, is there anything at all that would have skewed this vote to anything but yes? I've read several posts now where the reason for the vote is because they had no expectations. Doesn't that pretty much mean that a Bernie from Weekend at Bernies would have earned a similar rating?

[flambe]

I've read several posts now where the reason for the vote is because they had no expectations. Doesn't that pretty much mean that a Bernie from Weekend at Bernies would have earned a similar rating?

er....No.

i think "these people" you speak of aren't just living in the now. They have expectations that reach beyond this season and understand that it will take time to fully achieve what Winter is proposing.

[Pookie]

If one looks at the roster at the beginning of the season both from a talent and attitude perspective and figures you know what, these guys probably aren't going to make the playoffs and it will take a little bit of time to get rid of some of the baggage... is that akin to having "no expectations" or simply "realistic expectations"?

[pekduck]

Other than to be completely disenamoured with Winter like some of us, for those that have had no expectations of this year, is there anything at all that would have skewed this vote to anything but yes? I've read several posts now where the reason for the vote is because they had no expectations. Doesn't that pretty much mean that a Bernie from Weekend at Bernies would have earned a similar rating?

lol, saying that is just being a douche, roogs

no expectation of wins/losses doesn't imply no expectation of progress, which is subjective as always, had winter and co. just sat there play through the same players he got plus the few he had to get to make a full roster to start the season and just try to get results and not implementing a change, most would have give up on him 2 months ago

[Shakes McQueen]

Other than to be completely disenamoured with Winter like some of us, for those that have had no expectations of this year, is there anything at all that would have skewed this vote to anything but yes? I've read several posts now where the reason for the vote is because they had no expectations. Doesn't that pretty much mean that a Bernie from Weekend at Bernies would have earned a similar rating?

Having low expectations for on-field success this season isn't the same as having no expectations at all. I've said since before game one, that all I want to see is clear progress in the play of the team over the course of the season, and that I will begin to judge Winter based on how his system looks to be taking shape, the tactics he employs, as well as what changes he makes to the roster.

All of these things have been a bit of a mixed bag so far, but there's still several games left.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

lol, saying that is just being a douche, roogs

no expectation of wins/losses doesn't imply no expectation of progress, which is subjective as always, had winter and co. just sat there play through the same players he got plus the few he had to get to make a full roster to start the season and just try to get results and not implementing a change, most would have give up on him 2 months ago


er....No.

i think "these people" you speak of aren't just living in the now. They have expectations that reach beyond this season and understand that it will take time to fully achieve what Winter is proposing.

Exactly.

- Scott

[ag futbol]

To me everyone’s idea of progress has been inherently built in to the message of hope Winter initially delivered. A team flies by the seat of it’s pants for four years and some guy shows up saying he’s not going to make short term decisions. Sounds nice, but is he capable of delivering?

I’m not optimistic.

[Shakes McQueen]

To me everyone’s idea of progress has been inherently built in to the message of hope Winter initially delivered. A team flies by the seat of it’s pants for four years and some guy shows up saying he’s not going to make short term decisions. Sounds nice, but is he capable of delivering?

I’m not optimistic.

Winter was hired using a proper process for once, too. MLSE brought in outsiders to help with the search, and paired Winter up with a MLS veteran, in Mariner. They also let Winter bring his own assistant with him.

Whether he's ultimately capable of delivering is the million dollar question, but I don't think we know yet.

I've tried to separate Winter from the built-in angst that comes with with the bitter disappointment of the previous four shit years, because if we don't, we are just going to continue the coaching carousel forever, and managerial candidates are going to be more and more reluctant to come here in the first place.

I think this team is on the ups, but it's all just trying to see into the future right now. If you're more pessimistic, I obviously understand. By the same token, those with hope aren't automatically MLSE shills or low-expectation havin' motherfuckers. They are trying to see things from a longer arc.

- Scott

[ginkster88]

I'll be curious to see how long the acquisitions stay around. It appears as though Mariner is putting together the pieces for next year. Frings, Koevermans, Johnson, Dunfield, Avila all seem like quality guys who will be here for a little while. Plata and Eckersly would be fantastic to have back. In the best case that's 7 of 10 outfield starters returning. With guys at the back recovering and perhaps a new face or two as depth in the offseason, we may not see much change between today and the opener next year, which I think would be great.

[PopePouri]

I'll be curious to see how long the acquisitions stay around. It appears as though Mariner is putting together the pieces for next year. Frings, Koevermans, Johnson, Dunfield, Avila all seem like quality guys who will be here for a little while. Plata and Eckersly would be fantastic to have back. In the best case that's 7 of 10 outfield starters returning. With guys at the back recovering and perhaps a new face or two as depth in the offseason, we may not see much change between today and the opener next year, which I think would be great.

What's great about JDG's contract expiring is that we'll be able to throw money at Plata and Ecks to possibly stay. I'm pretty sure they'll want to make Plata a senior player, bounce his salary up to 100K+.

[Roogsy]

lol, saying that is just being a douche, roogs

no expectation of wins/losses doesn't imply no expectation of progress, which is subjective as always, had winter and co. just sat there play through the same players he got plus the few he had to get to make a full roster to start the season and just try to get results and not implementing a change, most would have give up on him 2 months ago


So basically player turnover is progress? Then Toronto has been the #1 progressive team since it's inception.

All I am saying is that there seems to be little reason not to vote "yes" when in fact there isn't any predetermined benchmark by which to measure whether what he has done so far merits one answer or the other. Preki did the same thing last year, brought in a whole ton of new players, played a new different style and strategy and got poor results. Winter does it and gets approval. I am not sure I understand the difference between the two other than Winter's style is prettier to look at but has gotten worse results.

[pekduck]

So basically player turnover is progress? Then Toronto has been the #1 progressive team since it's inception.

All I am saying is that there seems to be little reason not to vote "yes" when in fact there isn't any predetermined benchmark by which to measure whether what he has done so far merits one answer or the other. Preki did the same thing last year, brought in a whole ton of new players, played a new different style and strategy and got poor results. Winter does it and gets approval. I am not sure I understand the difference between the two other than Winter's style is prettier to look at but has gotten worse results.

you are way too smart to say things like these my man, sometimes i wonder if you are debating for the sake of debating only

transactions with a purpose to bringing similar players that fits his vision versus transactions without a purpose for short term use or proper scouting.. if you kept on equating these, then well, be my guest

[Roogsy]

I am trying to make you think beyond buying into the company line brother.

Change for the sake of change is not productive. Yes he's made player movements supposedly to fit his vision, but his first round were duds, what makes us think the 2nd round of movements will generate a net benefit?

Other than the DPs of course...their impact has been undeniable. But the DP issue is a different topic altogether because it operates mostly outside of the cap and essentially we are talking about efficiency under the cap. I simply think he has very little ability to be effective under the cap. Visions can be expensive and he no longer has the luxury of stretching himself beyind the salary cap after using up all remaining DP slots. Anyone can build an expensive competent team (UEFA anyone?), the trick in MLS is to do it on the cheap. So far, I don't see how he gets a passing grade. His best results have come after he did the easy thing and used DPs. To be effective in MLS you have to be able to generate results with or without DPs. Can he do that?

[Yohan]

I am trying to make you think beyond buying into the company line brother.

Change for the sake of change is not productive. Yes he's made player movements supposedly to fit his vision, but his first round were duds, what makes us think the 2nd round of movements will generate a net benefit?

Other than the DPs of course...their impact has been undeniable. But the DP issue is a different topic altogether because it operates mostly outside of the cap and essentially we are talking about efficiency under the cap. I simply think he has very little ability to be effective under the cap. Visions can be expensive and he no longer has the luxury of stretching himself beyind the salary cap after using up all remaining DP slots. Anyone can build an expensive competent team (UEFA anyone?), the trick in MLS is to do it on the cheap. So far, I don't see how he gets a passing grade. His best results have come after he did the easy thing and used DPs. To be effective in MLS you have to be able to generate results with or without DPs. Can he do that?
Using DPs is not the 'easy' thing to do in MLS. 'easier' maybe, but there has been too many crappy DPs to say that using DPs is easy. (not to mention wrong usages of DPs can potentially cripple a team)

in fact, I think AW/PM/JK should be credited highly for good use of DP spots, just as much as they would get credit for any good depth/role player signings they make

[ManUtd4ever]

The main difference among the aquisitions this season compared to last season is the overall level of skill and technical ability of the players. Preki acquired players based primarily on their work ethic and defensive acumen.

[pekduck]

I am trying to make you think beyond buying into the company line brother.

Change for the sake of change is not productive. Yes he's made player movements supposedly to fit his vision, but his first round were duds, what makes us think the 2nd round of movements will generate a net benefit?

Other than the DPs of course...their impact has been undeniable. But the DP issue is a different topic altogether because it operates mostly outside of the cap and essentially we are talking about efficiency under the cap. I simply think he has very little ability to be effective under the cap. Visions can be expensive and he no longer has the luxury of stretching himself beyind the salary cap after using up all remaining DP slots. Anyone can build an expensive competent team (UEFA anyone?), the trick in MLS is to do it on the cheap. So far, I don't see how he gets a passing grade. His best results have come after he did the easy thing and used DPs. To be effective in MLS you have to be able to generate results with or without DPs. Can he do that?

haha, i do agree that MLSE and FO will sugar coat everything that's happening, all par for the course since that's their business

his first wave of players, good observation, prior to his arrival, we sacked almost more than half of the roster, he needed bodies to start and got them who he thought at the time would work.. of course, it later proven they don't necessarily work

after getting better understanding of MLS, look at his second wave (recent signings), all seems to share similar style and versatile, he's adjusting the shortcomings from the first wave and finding players that fits the style

as long as he's getting more correct decisions than less fortunate decisions and improving the team, he's being more productive than the mojo/preki era

with mariner's help, all these new signings are reasonably priced (except DPs) and relatively less risky with better upside potentials, that's good salary cap management for this operations team

so yeah, that's what i saw, the 'total football' and '4-3-3' revolution are just marketing schemes and slogans, but take away the wrapping, what's really being established here is a sustainable approach where style remains the same and the team just needs to replace players suitable for it (academy, trades, international signings etc). and i sure hope winter, de clark, and mariner can last 3 years to show progress to have the job or the foundation in place, that's how a dynasty begins... of course, that's the best case scenario, shit may just not work out at the end, lol

[Pookie]

And there is no "trick" to do it on the cheap when you can use 3 DPs and untold sums of allocation money which the league keeps secret.

Hate to bring up the name again but DeRo was compensated well over $450k annually but had a cap max hit of 335k using this allocation and base comp counting rule.

The trick is to use all the tools available to build an effective roster. Winter has built the roster now, let's see if it is effective

[Shakes McQueen]

So basically player turnover is progress? Then Toronto has been the #1 progressive team since it's inception.

No one said this. No one has advocated "change for the sake of change". You're simplifying the opposing view to the point of absurdity.

Or reductio ad absurdum, since you like your latin. :D

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Love my latin. :D

However, that fallacy is used in vast quantities on this board so why not join the party? :lol:

But on a serious note, change without a net benefit is not far from change for the sake of change. And I think that has been my problem with this team this year. Which is why I have been begging for proof that this exercise has been more than simply another change without better results.

Some ask to wait, but nobody gives a definitive cut-off of how long is reasonable enough. At some point judgement should be passed.

[pekduck]

And there is no "trick" to do it on the cheap when you can use 3 DPs and untold sums of allocation money which the league keeps secret.

Hate to bring up the name again but DeRo was compensated well over $450k annually but had a cap max hit of 335k using this allocation and base comp counting rule.

The trick is to use all the tools available to build an effective roster. Winter has built the roster now, let's see if it is effective

why... why you must.... noooooooooooo :willy_nilly: the forbidden D word....it's like.. it's like i'm being haunted.. every corner i turn i run into the D word....

:D

[brad]

I am really wondering if the first half of the season was either Winter mis-judging the MLS, or more likely an extended training camp where he was testing players out in a variety of situations and roles to see who could sink and who could swim.

[Shakes McQueen]

The problem is, there isn't really traditional "proof" yet, unless we want to start micro-analyzing TFC's performances.

I believe I said before the season started that I wanted to give Winter this season to sort out the lineup, and then start judging him as we normally would next season, as long as the team showed growth over the course of the season.

And on that topic, I do think the team looks better post-transfer window additions, with the potential to greatly improve the defense in the off-season, if JDG is given his walking papers.

Our leaky sieve of a backline is absolutely on Winter at this point, and it needs to be made better. I think when that is resolved, the rest of our lineup is probably good enough now, that our offense will sort itself out.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

I am really wondering if the first half of the season was either Winter mis-judging the MLS, or more likely an extended training camp where he was testing players out in a variety of situations and roles to see who could sink and who could swim.

As with most scenarios, it's probably a mix of both, along with other factors.

- Scott

[bangersandmash]

So, we are pretty much the bottom of the league, but I do believe that Winter is building towards what he promised. The results in the league haven't been there, but I don't think that he intended for so many injuries so daly in the season. Couple that with the limited depth of the squad and the fact that the transfer window was closed Winter did two things:

1. He gave the players on the roster the chance and the minutes to show him that they could play the roles he required of them,
2. He gave kids from the academy the chance and minutes to show that they could step up into his system.

This resulted in people playing out of their normal position and out of their depth but Winter did what any good manager should do -- he showed faith and gave people to opportunity to succeed. Given that the transfer window was closed, I am not sure there wAs anything else he could have done.

When the window opened he promptly shipped out those who couldn't or wouldn't adapt, brought in players who have already been able to stamp their marnk onto games in the mls and ccl and has continued to reward players who have shown that they are capable of a) working in his system or b) raising their game to something approaching an mls standard.

What I haven't liked is having to watch people who aren't match fit trying to grind out 90 minutes. But would I really expect Winter to tell Frings and Koevermans to worm out in the reserve league for. Few games?

I don't think you can judge Winter's work without balancing your perspective with the early player mutinies, the salary cap, the closed trNsfer window and the number of injuiries he has had to work around (never mind the lingering aftertaste of mo johnson's "promises...")

Even though we have lost a lot lately I feel like we have been attacking more, passing more and working more as a unit. It certainly feels like we are scoring more but perhaps 6 goals in three games has just left me feeling giddy.

Winter hasn't yet achieved what I want him to achieve. But so far.. Under the circumstances and conditions of his first few months, I would say he has dealt with a lot and brought quite a few positives out of the adversity.

[flambe]

Some ask to wait, but nobody gives a definitive cut-off of how long is reasonable enough. At some point judgement should be passed.

That's up to the individual, surely?

I will wait until mid-way through next season, before passing my final judgement.

This team might as well be an expansion team with all the shit that has gone on. The only difference is that TFC has a severely pissed and jaded fan-base that has had enough. But that isn't and shouldn't effect the progress of the team. If we were a true first year expansion team (which we might as well be) I imagine the majoirty of this board would be happy.

Or I could be wrong, and like some people have said, if NYRB can turn around in a year, why can't we? :rolleyes:

[J .]

W/L/L/L/L/W/T: 1 point out of a possible 15


That sums up why I voted no. TFC is supposed to beat Real Estelli while in MLS play they have generally been pretty horrible. They can have a good August and Sept and make the playoffs, but the only thing I care about is results and we havent gotten them.

[__wowza]

I am really wondering if the first half of the season was either Winter mis-judging the MLS, or more likely an extended training camp where he was testing players out in a variety of situations and roles to see who could sink and who could swim.


extended training camp. i think many here might have a go at his competence, but what do you think other teams would likely do to us? what would you have the guy say after league games?

"yeah, these games are tryouts, we were just gauging the league.."

[Canary10]

So, we are pretty much the bottom of the league, but I do believe that Winter is building towards what he promised. The results in the league haven't been there, but I don't think that he intended for so many injuries so daly in the season. Couple that with the limited depth of the squad and the fact that the transfer window was closed Winter did two things:

1. He gave the players on the roster the chance and the minutes to show him that they could play the roles he required of them,
2. He gave kids from the academy the chance and minutes to show that they could step up into his system.

This resulted in people playing out of their normal position and out of their depth but Winter did what any good manager should do -- he showed faith and gave people to opportunity to succeed. Given that the transfer window was closed, I am not sure there wAs anything else he could have done.

When the window opened he promptly shipped out those who couldn't or wouldn't adapt, brought in players who have already been able to stamp their marnk onto games in the mls and ccl and has continued to reward players who have shown that they are capable of a) working in his system or b) raising their game to something approaching an mls standard.

What I haven't liked is having to watch people who aren't match fit trying to grind out 90 minutes. But would I really expect Winter to tell Frings and Koevermans to worm out in the reserve league for. Few games?

I don't think you can judge Winter's work without balancing your perspective with the early player mutinies, the salary cap, the closed trNsfer window and the number of injuiries he has had to work around (never mind the lingering aftertaste of mo johnson's "promises...")

Even though we have lost a lot lately I feel like we have been attacking more, passing more and working more as a unit. It certainly feels like we are scoring more but perhaps 6 goals in three games has just left me feeling giddy.

Winter hasn't yet achieved what I want him to achieve. But so far.. Under the circumstances and conditions of his first few months, I would say he has dealt with a lot and brought quite a few positives out of the adversity.

Totally agree with this post. A good leader should give his team a chance to show what they can do under a new vision and leadership. He did that then went about dumping those that couldn't do it.

A couple of other points: we've had a few blow-outs to be sure (we did last year too if you look back), but I don't think the first part of the season was all for naught. There were a few games where we lost points we never should have, in some ways that looked like we were cursed. I'm thinking the Dallas away game were they were given a penalty in extra time of the first half, and went on to win 1-0, the Chicago 2-2 draw game, etc. We could easily be 5-6 points higher right now and our play was good enough to be there, which would have had us still in a position to make the playoffs right now.

The other thing: let's not underestimate how bad this team was. Let's face it, it was a really poor team.

[supersaint]

Then analysis is worthless and we should just wait for 3 years to go by and hope that he's on the right track.

And if he isn't? And 3 years were wasted, what then?

I think the question should be turned around on you. At what stage will you consider Winter a success? I just want to know what it will take to get you to just shut the hell up about Winter. I have a funny feeling that if we win either Champions League or MLS Cup you will still berate Winter.
What do you accept as acceptable after last years debacle? How about being able to look to next season with optimism, how about getting out of champions league group? how about seeing progress with our young players? how about watching a team play entertaining football, how about successfully bringing in another decent centreback? Would any or all of these things make you happy? And incidentally, would you mind telling me what credentials you have that make you such an expert on football? I have coached at junior level in Scotland, and played at junior level and I do not profess to be half as much of a know it all as you.
You are such a negative individual, who I can honestly say will not be happy until Winter is gone. Ahh for the good old days of Preki, when the football was just soooo entertaining!
And just signing a DP does not bring success, look at all the DP failures throughout the league, so Damn Right Frings will prove to be a great signing.

[bigbamboom]

I think the question should be turned around on you. At what stage will you consider Winter a success? I just want to know what it will take to get you to just shut the hell up about Winter. I have a funny feeling that if we win either Champions League or MLS Cup you will still berate Winter.
What do you accept as acceptable after last years debacle? How about being able to look to next season with optimism, how about getting out of champions league group? how about seeing progress with our young players? how about watching a team play entertaining football, how about successfully bringing in another decent centreback? Would any or all of these things make you happy? And incidentally, would you mind telling me what credentials you have that make you such an expert on football? I have coached at junior level in Scotland, and played at junior level and I do not profess to be half as much of a know it all as you.
You are such a negative individual, who I can honestly say will not be happy until Winter is gone. Ahh for the good old days of Preki, when the football was just soooo entertaining!
And just signing a DP does not bring success, look at all the DP failures throughout the league, so Damn Right Frings will prove to be a great signing.

+1 you hit the nail on the head. Guy played at the highest level, world class organization, recruited by world class soccer leader, hired and comes with utmost respect in the soccer community - only to be ripped week in week out ...sad. I for one am very pleased with the changes and direction....and class of players he has brought in.

We're tired of the bullshit constantly ripping every move....

[DangerRed]

I think the question should be turned around on you. At what stage will you consider Winter a success? I just want to know what it will take to get you to just shut the hell up about Winter. I have a funny feeling that if we win either Champions League or MLS Cup you will still berate Winter.


That's idiotic. (Mods: not saying HE is an idiot, per se, just his argument)

I've said before and I'll say again, that the moment this team starts showing real progress, which I would define as performing better than a single point out of a possible 15, for starters, then I would be the first to praise Winter and the others responsible.

And if we win the CCL or the Cup, I will march in the streets, singing Winter's name.

In short, what'll get skeptics (cynics?) like me to shut the hell up about Winter is RESULTS.

Just as Winter and the team will deserve praise when they achieve success, so do they deserve criticism and skepticism when they are consistenly performing poorly. What's so hard to grasp about that? :noidea:

EDIT: As for Preki, no one here who is critical of Winter is advocating a return to Preki's coaching style. Don't be specious.

[bigbamboom]

Results come in time - the program needed a complete over haul - that takes at LEAST ONE YEAR ... Direction is right - we're on the path.

[Roogsy]

That's idiotic. (Mods: not saying HE is an idiot, per se, just his argument)

I've said before and I'll say again, that the moment this team starts showing real progress, which I would define as performing better than a single point out of a possible 15, for starters, then I would be the first to praise Winter and the others responsible.

And if we win the CCL or the Cup, I will march in the streets, singing Winter's name.

In short, what'll get skeptics (cynics?) like me to shut the hell up about Winter is RESULTS.

Just as Winter and the team will deserve praise when they achieve success, so do they deserve criticism and skepticism when they are consistenly performing poorly. What's so hard to grasp about that? :noidea:


Oh god this!

[Pookie]

In short, what'll get skeptics (cynics?) like me to shut the hell up about Winter is RESULTS.




Others are only going to back off when the get their wish... he is fired... after 10 more games.

Which is fine. When you know the agenda you can read the posts as they were intended.

[DangerRed]

Results come in time - the program needed a complete over haul - that takes at LEAST ONE YEAR ... Direction is right - we're on the path.

Jesus. It's like throwing stones against the wall, arguing this thing, over and over again. It does NOT take at least one year. Other teams have been able to do it much more quickly, or at least show measurable progress and improvement on their road to a rebuild. Winter has shown neither, yet we've locked him in for a three-year deal. Are you not in the least troubled by that?

But maybe you're right. It may take at least one year. Especially for a coach like Winter, who has no first-team coaching experience, no MLS experience, is learning on the job and, as at least one player has said, has vastly underestimated the skill level in the league.

[DangerRed]

Others are only going to back off when the get their wish... he is fired... after 10 more games.

Which is fine. When you know the agenda you can read the posts as they were intended.

Not once have I called for him being fired at the end of the season. And if you're somehow insinuating that I want him gone but am afraid to say it, I resent that. I think I've been more than plain about my views of the guy.

[Roogsy]

Not once have I called for him being fired at the end of the season. And if you're somehow insinuating that I want him gone but am afraid to say it, I resent that. I think I've been more than plain about my views of the guy.


But it suits their narrative Danger and it absolves them of having to back up their position by simply attacking the credibility of the opposing poster. It's ad hominem at it's finest.

[rocker]

Just as Winter and the team will deserve praise when they achieve success, so do they deserve criticism and skepticism when they are consistenly performing poorly. What's so hard to grasp about that? :noidea:


Well, a third option is in the middle: neither praise nor criticism.

If one believes success will come in the long term, there's no reason, for example, to criticize Winter for, let's say, a 1-0 loss to Dallas or something like that.

Also, I think it's a bit wishy-washy to criticize Winter one month and criticize people who see some positives and thought success would come in the longer term, and then turn around and praise Winter once success comes. Stick to your position, and if the results confirm later on, then you're golden. If things change, admit to the people who wanted to "wait and see" that you were wrong -- do not then turn around and praise Winter.

[Canary10]

Danger Red, this was a fuckn awful team at the start of this year. Everyone in the league knows it. Were you expecting a miracle worker?

Now that Winter has a team approaching what he wants, a 36 point total would show progress. 17 points out of 10 games. How does that sound to everyone?

[ensco]

Others are only going to back off when the get their wish... he is fired... after 10 more games.

Which is fine. When you know the agenda you can read the posts as they were intended.



Do you really know what some anonymous posters agenda is?

Does anyone really know what yours is, or mine is?

It's a rathole. I mean, are there people here who are players, or relatives of players, or MLSE execs, or relatives of MLSE execs? Probably yes to all.

Best to focus on the merits of the argument, imho.

[DangerRed]

Well, a third option is in the middle: neither praise nor criticism.

If one believes success will come in the long term, there's no reason, for example, to criticize Winter for, let's say, a 1-0 loss to Dallas or something like that.


You're right. But I like to base my beliefs at least in part on evidence. Right now, virtually no evidence points to success coming over the long term.

Without evidence, I think someone said, you're left with ... blind faith.

As for neither criticism nor praise, the guy is in charge of something I care a lot about. On emotion alone, I will get excited about wins and critical about losses or sloppy draws.

Generally speaking, I think it's rather disconnected from reality to think you're able to neither criticize nor praise while watching a football match.

[brad]

I agree the team was bad and need to be rebuilt. I don't agree that we have seen enough to know if progress is being made though. We are doing worse in the league than last year. In the CCL, we are where we were last year. We are still leaking goals in a bad manner - complete breakdowns at the back.

While I do see some positive signs, I do think it's very premature to declare progress in the right direction.

[Pachuco]

Totally agree with this post. A good leader should give his team a chance to show what they can do under a new vision and leadership. He did that then went about dumping those that couldn't do it.

A couple of other points: we've had a few blow-outs to be sure (we did last year too if you look back), but I don't think the first part of the season was all for naught. There were a few games where we lost points we never should have, in some ways that looked like we were cursed. I'm thinking the Dallas away game were they were given a penalty in extra time of the first half, and went on to win 1-0, the Chicago 2-2 draw game, etc. We could easily be 5-6 points higher right now and our play was good enough to be there, which would have had us still in a position to make the playoffs right now.

The other thing: let's not underestimate how bad this team was. Let's face it, it was a really poor team.

Not to nit pick or anything, but I just want to point out that you just said my biggest pet peeve in all of sports. If we could easily be 6 points higher right now then well...we'd be 6 points higher. The thing about this statement is that the opposite is alway true as well. We could easily be down 6 points as well. That's sports. If we all judged on what could have been well then, we'd be in first place.

[Roogsy]

Danger Red, this was a fuckn awful team at the start of this year. Everyone in the league knows it. Were you expecting a miracle worker?

Now that Winter has a team approaching what he wants, a 36 point total would show progress. 17 points out of 10 games. How does that sound to everyone?


A couple of months ago I called our end of year results as being around 38 points. And even then I was not pleased.

36 points is even worse, we should be ashamed that this is even a goal.

And the worst part? In all likelihood we won't even reach 36. At this rate we are barely going to be able to pass 30.

That is a points per game ratio of 0.88, we had 1.16 last year. We have already surpassed goals allowed in all of last year. And we aren't even close to reaching the number of goals scored despite more league games this year.

By all accounts THIS year's team is a "fuckn awful" team, much moreso than last year's. And yet few seem to care. People say I (and others) are negative. A look in the standings tells me we have good reason to be. For some of us, results do matter. They are the truest test of quality. And if these results don't frustrate fans, then we have not learned anything from the Mo days. Promises of a bright future by a rookie who in the meantime is feeding us piles of turd while we gladly buy into whatever he is dishing.

[Beach_Red]

You're right. But I like to base my beliefs at least in part on evidence. Right now, virtually no evidence points to success coming over the long term.



It's not really that bad. The DP signings and the trading for older players show that there has been a change in direction from the beginning of the season when all the talk was about the long-long-term and future success. But now it's like someone woke up and realized, oh yeah, this is a development league, success can't be sustained for the long-term through player developement.

Winter says in the article in the news thread that, "It's just the beginning," and I take him at his word. Maybe they've split the difference between this long-long-term plan from the beginning of the season and the more win-now attitude of other MLS teams, but whatever, they've upgraded the roster and are looking to compete more now.

How many points from the rest of the season would be a success?

[DangerRed]

This team is second worst in the league, only ahead of an expansion team, and has the worst record -- and is on track to have its worst year -- since the Mo Johnston year.

In fact, under Mo, in our expansion year, TFC won 6 games out of 30. You think we'll win 3 of the next 6?

And yet there are people here telling me I'm too negative, and others who say that if I believe in the long-term, I shouldn't criticize.

I'll have whatever you guys are smoking.

[Canary10]

A couple of months ago I called our end of year results as being around 38 points. And even then I was not pleased.

36 points is even worse, we should be ashamed that this is even a goal.

And the worst part? In all likelihood we won't even reach 36. At this rate we are barely going to be able to pass 30.

That is a points per game ratio of 0.88, we had 1.16 last year. We have already surpassed goals allowed in all of last year. And we aren't even close to reaching the number of goals scored despite more league games this year.

By all accounts THIS year's team is a "fuckn awful" team, much moreso than last year's. And yet few seem to care. People say I (and others) are negative. A look in the standings tells me we have good reason to be. For some of us, results do matter. They are the truest test of quality. And if these results don't frustrate fans, then we have not learned anything from the Mo days. Promises of a bright future by a rookie who in the meantime is feeding us piles of turd while we gladly buy into whatever he is dishing.

The team we had in April was a fuckn awful team because it was mostly last year's team, built for last year's coach.

[DangerRed]

How many points from the rest of the season would be a success?

There are 10 games left. I would call this season one of meaningful progress if we can get more than half of those 30 points. I sincerely doubt that that is possible at present.

[Roogsy]

The team we had in April was a fuckn awful team because it was mostly last year's team, built for last year's coach.

Actually, by April most of the changes had been done and the team was stock full of Winter's players so how that can be "last year's team" when few players from "last year" remained is a mystery.

[ag futbol]

How many points from the rest of the season would be a success?
I think 12 points would be positive.

That'd be 3 wins- 3 ties - 4 losses.

With the amount of moves being made, I think they should be at least somewhat comfortable personnel wise.

[Roogsy]

12 points of hte final games would indeed be an improvement and that is a sad thing to say. 31 points for the total on the season? On real teams, people would be fired.

[menefreghista]

Weird. This thread was locked for a bit. Glad it has been unlocked.


Do you really know what some anonymous posters agenda is?

Does anyone really know what yours is, or mine is?

It's a rathole. I mean, are there people here who are players, or relatives of players, or MLSE execs, or relatives of MLSE execs? Probably yes to all.

Best to focus on the merits of the argument, imho.

This talk of people having an 'agenda' is laughable.

I'm just a fan and season ticket holder, who likes to kill time discussing my favourite team.

My only agenda is wanting this team to succeed.

[ManUtd4ever]

The system that Winter has implemented is the total antithesis of the defensive style that Preki utilized last season, thus the need for an extensive roster overhaul. The drastic change in philosophy simply requires more time to yield results.

It's obviously up to the individual as to whether or not to support the radical change in philosophy in lieu of immediate results in the win column. Personally, I think TFC and other clubs in MLS that continue to adapt to playing attacking, posession oriented, football will be better off in the long run, and so will the supporters. It is an exciting brand of football to watch when it is executed properly.

The time to accurately judge Winter based on his philosophy starts now. If TFC continues to improve with the recent player acquisitions and earn results on the pitch, it will have been worth the wait.

[TOBOR !]

12 points of hte final games would indeed be an improvement and that is a sad thing to say. 31 points for the total on the season? On real teams, people would be fired.

What can be said of a club that razes itself to the ground after 4 years of existence in order to rebuild, if it fires the coach recommended by a hired consultant after one season ? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myopia)

[Roogsy]

What can be said of a club that razes itself to the ground after 4 years of existence in order to rebuild, if it fires the coach recommended by a hired consultant after one season ? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myopia)


What can be said about arguments that are mischaracterizations of people's positions? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Roogsy]

The system that Winter has implemented is the total antithesis of the defensive style that Preki utilized last season, thus the need for an extensive roster overhaul. The drastic change in philosophy simply requires more time to yield results.

It's obviously up to the individual as to whether or not to support the radical change in philosophy in lieu of immediate results in the win column. Personally, I think TFC and other clubs in MLS that continue to adapt to playing attacking, posession oriented, football will be better off in the long run, and so will the supporters. It is an exciting brand of football to watch when it is executed properly.

The time to accurately judge Winter based on his philosophy starts now. If TFC continues to improve with the recent player acquisitions and earn results on the pitch, it will have been worth the wait.

"Worth the wait" only applies for me if Winter not only gets better results but actually achieves excellent results. This system doesn't just have to improve TFC's previous standing, it has to surpass them in a substantial way. For the team to throw away an entire season, this is the only possibly acceptable result. You don't throw away an entire year only to muddle your way through subsequent seasons.

Excellent results can only mean continuing to win the NCC, earning a bonafide playoff spot through conference qualifier instead of a wild card and an extended run in the playoffs.

Anything short of that and the year that we threw away will have been a tragedy and most certainly not "worth the wait".

[ag futbol]

So here's our remaining MLS schedule:

Aug 6 - @ DCU
Aug 13 – RSL
Aug 21 @ CHI
Aug 27 – SJ
Sep 10 - @ CLB
Sep 17 – Col
Sep 24 - @ CUSA
Oct 1 – RBNY
Oct 15 - @ PHI
Oct 22 - NER

New England and Chicago are "must haves" in terms of points. Chivas and SJ sound promising. The timing of RSL could be favorable too considering they look to be falling back a bit ... unless TFC decides to take the role of "slump buster"

[TOBOR !]

What can be said about arguments that are mischaracterizations of people's positions? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Sorry, what ? Have I misunderstood ? I meant no offense, but your comments seem to indicate you feel that Winter has failed and should be replaced... do I have that wrong ?

[habstfc]

There are two tfc teams this year as far as I'm concerned. There is the pre july 20th team and the post july 20th team, if you can't see a massive difference in quality between the two well then..

I am going to judge winters overall performance from here on in, I'm not considering the pre july 20th team at all. If we can get 14+ points the rest of the way I'll be satisfied we are on the right track, I think that's reasonable especially with our 2 best centre backs out for most of the season and even more so if we are stuck with this defense we have now the rest of the way.

I also don't get why people keep bringing up the fact why tfc didn't hire someone with mls experience etc. Let's face it if the big 5 leagues in europe are the nhl equivalent to soccer then mls is somewhere between the ECHL and the AHL. TFC hired the equivalent of a major junior coach, You see it all the time in hockey, Let's face it mls is an entry level league in my opinion for coaching.

[DangerRed]

New England and Chicago are "must haves" in terms of points. Chivas and SJ sound promising. The timing of RSL could be favorable too considering they look to be falling back a bit ... unless TFC decides to take the role of "slump buster"

Don't forget there are 6 CCL group stage games thrown in there, which will affect fatigue levels and possibly injuries. Of the matches remaining, I'd say:

WINNABLE:
SJ, NER

DRAWABLE:
CHI, CLB, CUSA

LIKELY LOSSES:
DCU, RSL, COL, RBNY, PHI

From that it follows that I expect our final point tally to be 19 (current) plus 6 from wins plus 3 from draws, for a total of 28. That is MISERABLE, even if I'm wrong and a couple of losses turn out to be draws. We'll be lucky to break 30 pts.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by DangerRed
Not once have I called for him being fired at the end of the season. And if you're somehow insinuating that I want him gone but am afraid to say it, I resent that. I think I've been more than plain about my views of the guy

You have and I am not looking in your direction when I mention that there is an agenda to have him fired in as little as 10 days. Apologies if you thought I was referencing you directly. I do like reading your opinion.


Originally Posted by ensco
Do you really know what some anonymous posters agenda is?

I guess we never really do.

But when someone says things like this:


Originally Posted by Roogsy
I have been very clear that I think Winter should finish out the year. There is no net benefit to firing him now. I think his hiring was a mistake but what is done is done.

You can view each and every one of their posts in this light. It used to frustrate the hell out of me arguing his "points" until I realized that each "point" was essentially another attempt at moving forward his position and trying to get support for it.

I mean I used look at his commentary and wonder why it was a moving target. Why does criteria for evaluating Winter change game by game? Why is almost everything painted with a negative brush? Why are posters rebuttals dismissed as if they were students and he a tenured, somewhat ego driven professor on the subject of all things coaching?

Then, I see quotes like the above... direct quote mind you and I'll be accused of using it out of context... I get why this pattern is there.

It makes reading his posts a lot easier when you know what is behind it. Whether it is a thread about "trade value" or "tactics" it all ultimately is designed to paint Mr Winter in a negative light. There are some good points for thought in there but it's like Fox News. There is going to be an agenda within the message. Left unchecked, it becomes accepted opinion or drives others away.

And with that said, I can't pretend that I don't have an agenda either. I am biased towards a longer term view. Anytime someone throws out our current record, I say yeah, I agree that sucks. Meh. Let's talk about it again in another year because it is irrelevant to the big picture.

Maybe my view is wrong. Ultimately, I want the team to be successful as much as he does. I just see a different way about it and I sure as hell am not going to get pushed into a mindset of negativity or let this board degenerate without challenging this agenda.

[Roogsy]

My "agenda" is simple. Excellence. This team should do no better than be a contending team and the fans deserve it.

The quote you use does not contradict that in the slightest. My position has never wavered nor have I "changed" anything. There are no moving targets regardless of how you paint it. But it does not surprise me that you would claim there was being that your tactics have been to use logical fallacies throughout all your arguments.

Whatever makes you "read" things easier is your choice, but I assume you view accuracy is a hinderance to achieving that ease as opposed to making an effort to understand the statements made.

[Pookie]

^ and with that, the ego driven professor continues on his way.

Sir, your evaluation of Winter changes more than a baby does diapers. The one I loved was a comment in a pre-game thread about expecting a draw in Vancouver. We got that result. And then you complained.

You suggest that the weak talent level on the team pre-July 15th exposes Winter's weakness as a coach and now a better talent level (which he is responsible for bringing) will cover up his shortcomings.

and the list goes on...

... and now, we'll argue about what you think you really said when your direct quotes are available for all to see. Honestly, Bill Clinton could learn from you.

Or you'll try to insult me.

Either or. I'm used to it. I get your end game. Not really one I want to buy into thank you.

[ag futbol]

I also think that if we hit 12 points for our last 10 games that (in my world of lowered expectations) works out to 1.2 ppg which if extrapolated over a season would put us just outside the playoff bubble for this year.

So if they can roll with that into next season and improve on it, that's a positive.

The thing I'll be watching closely at the end of the year is if we can cut ties with the Dutch guys who clearly aren't going to work out here. Doing that would show at least some understanding of the league IMO, while holding on too long would look like fighting the tide.

[Ageroo]

Actually, by April most of the changes had been done and the team was stock full of Winter's players so how that can be "last year's team" when few players from "last year" remained is a mystery.

Not in agreement with ya here Roogs :)......BLACK(Old Regime players), RED(Winter). It was slowly starting to take shape, but still IMHO still an old world squad going into the season.....Take into account some of these guys are drafted guys as well. Unproven completely....

Staring lineup...opening day(March 19th): 6 Winter, 12 Old Regime (2 starters from Winter regime)


Toronto FC -- Stefan Frei, Dan Gargan, Nana Attakora, Ty Harden, Adrian Cann, Nathan Sturgis (Gianluca Zavarise 69), Dwayne De Rosario, Jacob Peterson (Mikael Yourassowsky 71), Nick Soolsma (Keith Makubuya 46), Maicon Santos, Javier Martina.
Substitutes Not Used: Oscar Cordon, Matt Gold, Ashtone Morgan, Milos Kocic.

Starting Lineup Game 2(March 26th): 6 Winter, 12 Old Regime (4 starters from Winter regime)


Toronto FC -- Stefan Frei, Dan Gargan, Adrian Cann, Ty Harden, Mikael Yourassowsky, Maicon Santos (Gianluca Zavarise 69), Nathan Sturgis (Alen Stevanovic 46), Jacob Peterson, Dwayne De Rosario, Alan Gordon, Javier Martina (Ashtone Morgan 87).
Substitutes Not Used: Oscar Cordon, Doneil Henry, Keith Makubuya, Milos Kocic.

Game 3(April 2nd): 7 Winter, 11 Old Regime (5 starters from Winter regime)


Stefan Frei; Danleigh Borman, Nana Attakora (Dicoy Williams 65'), Adrian Cann, Ty Harden; Tony Tchani, Maicon Santos, Jacob Peterson (Julian de Guzman 46'); Javier Martina, Alan Gordon, Alen Stevanovic (Joao Plata 70') ... Subs Not Used: Milos Kocic, Oscar Cordon, Dan Gargan, Ashtone Morgan ...

[Ageroo]

I am still on the fence about Winter.........just pointing this out. :)

[Roogsy]

^ and with that, the ego driven professor continues on his way.

Sir, your evaluation of Winter changes more than a baby does diapers. The one I loved was a comment in a pre-game thread about expecting a draw in Vancouver. We got that result. And then you complained.

You suggest that the weak talent level on the team pre-July 15th exposes Winter's weakness as a coach and now a better talent level (which he is responsible for bringing) will cover up his shortcomings.

and the list goes on...

... and now, we'll argue about what you think you really said when your direct quotes are available for all to see. Honestly, Bill Clinton could learn from you.

Or you try to insult me.

Either or. I'm used to it. I get your end game. Not really one I want to buy into thank you.

Incredible how you take things out of context and mischaracterize events and statements to suit your narrative. It truly is a skill.

I deny every single one of your points here. As I pointed in my previous post, accuracy does not seem to be of importance to you.

My evaluation of Winter has not changed. People may not agree with me but only you are the one that claims that I change it at all. As I said, it's a classic ad hominem tactic to discredit my point of view as being somehow complicated when in fact it is fairly straight forward and simple.

As for the insults. That is absolutely precious. Despite the arguments I have had on this board, few have taken as many personal shots as you have. It is so incredibly hypocritical for you to make that statement that if it weren't so unsurprising, I'd be more upset. But it isn't surprising and so I move on by simply stating what I previously said I would state after any one of your inaccurate mischaracterizations of my position: You are incorrect.

[ag futbol]

^ Ok, but to be fair here, does every player have to be replaced? A number of roles had already been filled (such as the international spots) that have to be considered important.

Technically Cordon, Makubuya, and Morgan are all Winter signings too BTW.

[Yohan]

anyone else feel that winter approval threads getting rehashed same arguments every time? can we just save the next one till the end of the season?

frankly I don't see the value of saying same stuff all over again

[Roogsy]

Not in agreement with ya here Roogs :)......BLACK(Old Regime players), RED(Winter). It was slowly starting to take shape, but still IMHO still an old world squad going into the season.....Take into account some of these guys are drafted guys as well. Unproven completely....

Staring lineup...opening day(March 19th): 6 Winter, 12 Old Regime (2 starters from Winter regime)



Starting Lineup Game 2(March 26th): 6 Winter, 12 Old Regime (4 starters from Winter regime)



Game 3(April 2nd): 7 Winter, 11 Old Regime (5 starters from Winter regime)

That's why I said April. I knew that March still started out with many of last year's players.

I'd be interested in seeing how April played out. I dont know how much effort it took to do that, but how did the rest of the month look?

[Ageroo]

^ Ok, but to be fair here, does every player have to be replaced? A number of roles had already been filled (such as the international spots) that have to be considered important).

Technically Cordon, Makubuya, and Morgan are all Winter signings too BTW.

meh...I see all of them still as Academy players, but I can see the point you are trying to make.....and it is valid. They could be classified as either I think....

[habstfc]

Don't forget there are 6 CCL group stage games thrown in there, which will affect fatigue levels and possibly injuries. Of the matches remaining, I'd say:

WINNABLE:
SJ, NER

DRAWABLE:
CHI, CLB, CUSA

LIKELY LOSSES:
DCU, RSL, COL, RBNY, PHI

From that it follows that I expect our final point tally to be 19 (current) plus 6 from wins plus 3 from draws, for a total of 28. That is MISERABLE, even if I'm wrong and a couple of losses turn out to be draws. We'll be lucky to break 30 pts.

A month ago I might have agreed 100% with this, but I think we are clearly better now and I think every game is winnable. You are right that we will likely lose to RSL and PHI but I think we have a good chance at beating the other teams. I think CHI SJ and NER are very difinately winnable games but I also think we could beat DCU COL and CHIVAS.

Call me crazy but I'm not really frightened by any team now with our new line-up.

[Ageroo]

That's why I said April. I knew that March still started out with many of last year's players.

I'd be interested in seeing how April played out. I dont know how much effort it took to do that, but how did the rest of the month look?

Bastard....lol. I knew you were going to ask that....

It wasn't that bad...I'll see how it shapes up.......another thing that might be interesting is to see the record of the squad with a Winter regime sided lineup or an Old regime Lineup?

Does the team's fortunes change with more of his players in the squad, or are the worse off? That may takee too much time though....lol

[Roogsy]

meh...I see all of them still as Academy players, but I can see the point you are trying to make.....and it is valid. They could be classified as either I think....


And one of the problems I have with classifying players such as Frei or Harden as "Preki" players is that 1) Frei could not possibly be considered a obstacle to Winter's program and 2) Harden wasn't a starter last year and has been used extensibly this year by Winter intentionally, many times over other players.

The argument here was that the team was affected by Preki holdovers when in fact the opportunity was taken to get rid of pretty much everything Preki built. Even things Preki did not build, such as DeRo were shipped out. What remained can only be determined to be elements that Winter intentionally chose not to move, hence I view them as Winter selections.

[menefreghista]

That's why I said April. I knew that March still started out with many of last year's players.

I'd be interested in seeing how April played out. I dont know how much effort it took to do that, but how did the rest of the month look?

After April 15 would make sense as that is when the transfer window closed.

Mind you that never stopped Winter/Mariner from making trades. That option was still available to them

[Ageroo]

That's why I said April. I knew that March still started out with many of last year's players.

I'd be interested in seeing how April played out. I dont know how much effort it took to do that, but how did the rest of the month look?

Technically you said "by April" :D

[habstfc]

anyone else feel that winter approval threads getting rehashed same arguments every time? can we just save the next one till the end of the season?

frankly I don't see the value of saying same stuff all over again

Absolutely correct.

[Ageroo]

And one of the problems I have with classifying players such as Frei or Harden as "Preki" players is that 1) Frei could not possibly be considered a obstacle to Winter's program and 2) Harden wasn't a starter last year and has been used extensibly this year by Winter intentionally, many times over other players.

Yes, Yes, Yes.....obviously he has old world players he favours. I am not trying to do anything other than show the actual Winter players vs. Old Skool......stop analyzing me. :D

[DangerRed]

A month ago I might have agreed 100% with this, but I think we are clearly better now and I think every game is winnable. You are right that we will likely lose to RSL and PHI but I think we have a good chance at beating the other teams. I think CHI SJ and NER are very difinately winnable games but I also think we could beat DCU COL and CHIVAS.

Call me crazy but I'm not really frightened by any team now with our new line-up.

CHI would be winnable, but we play it just three days after playing Tauro FC, and both are road games. I highly doubt we have a chance of a win there.

You're calling for a potential six wins out of the remaining 10 games, so yes, I will definitely call you crazy! :D

[menefreghista]

Why do people always want to stifle conversation?

If the debate doesn't interest you, don't read it and don't participate in it. Nobody is forcing you to click on the thread.

If some other TFC topic interests you, start a thread or respond in another.

What are you expecting to be discussed in the Winter Approval Thread?

[ManUtd4ever]

A month ago I might have agreed 100% with this, but I think we are clearly better now and I think every game is winnable. You are right that we will likely lose to RSL and PHI but I think we have a good chance at beating the other teams. I think CHI SJ and NER are very difinately winnable games but I also think we could beat DCU COL and CHIVAS.

Call me crazy but I'm not really frightened by any team now with our new line-up.

I agree that TFC has a much better fighting chance of earning a result in every match from this point forward, but our backline is still suspect, so I'm not quite as confident until there is notable improvement in the play our centrebacks in particular. Right now, we're probably a .500 club (to use a hockey analogy) because of our goalkeeper, midfield, and improved offensive capabilities.

[Roogsy]

Technically you said "by April" :D


:lol:

In case anyone is interested though, our record with that "Preki" team was 1-1-1.

In fact, even if you go up to the transfer window closing on April 15, our record was 1-1-3, 6 points in 6 games, or 1.00 ppg.

Our record until the next transfer window was 2-8-6, 12 points in 16 games or 0.75 ppg.

Our record from the last transfer window is currently 1-2-1 although I do think it will improve. We will probably move back up to 1.00 ppg territory for the remaining 12 games or slightly higher.

[menefreghista]

:lol:

In case anyone is interested though, our record with that "Preki" team was 1-1-1.

In fact, even if you go up to the transfer window closing on April 15, our record was 1-1-3, 6 points in 6 games, or 1.00 ppg.

Our record until the next transfer window was 2-8-6, 12 points in 16 games or 0.75 ppg.

It should be noted that only Frings and Koevermans had to wait until July 15th to start playing for TFC. The trading with other MLS teams was always available between April 15 and July 15. Did they wait to long to start making all those trades? Of course maybe those trades weren't available earlier in the season.

[habstfc]

CHI would be winnable, but we play it just three days after playing Tauro FC, and both are road games. I highly doubt we have a chance of a win there.

You're calling for a potential six wins out of the remaining 10 games, so yes, I will definitely call you crazy! :D

Would anyone here be shocked if we beat chicago on the road? I wouldn't. I'm not saying we are going to win 6 games but I think there are definately 6 winnable games for sure. I do think we could realistically win 4 games and tie a couple more though.

A month ago we had pretty much a zero chance of winning a game 3-2 but now we definately have that capability, even if we give up 2 goals we now have the potential to still win that game.

[Roogsy]

Would anyone here be shocked if we bet chicago on the road? I wouldn't. I'm not saying we are going to win 6 games but I think there are definately 6 winnable games for sure. I do think we could realistically win 4 games and tie a couple more though.

A month ago we had pretty much a zero chance of winning a game 3-2 but now we definately have that capability, even if we give up 2 goals we now have the potential to still win that game.

Chicago has been gutting out draws at home all year long, especially against superior teams. While it is a winnable game (all likely draws can go either way) the likelihood is that Chicago will continue to achieve consistent results they have been getting all year.

And let's remember, we're not the only ones that went out and landed a DP. Chicago went out and got one too. For all we know, they are a better team than they were in the first half of the season and could actually beat us instead.

[habstfc]

:lol:

In case anyone is interested though, our record with that "Preki" team was 1-1-1.

In fact, even if you go up to the transfer window closing on April 15, our record was 1-1-3, 6 points in 6 games, or 1.00 ppg.

Our record until the next transfer window was 2-8-6, 12 points in 16 games or 0.75 ppg.

Our record from the last transfer window is currently 1-2-1 although I do think it will improve.

I think we are 0-2-1.

[Wull]

Why do people always want to stifle conversation?

If the debate doesn't interest you, don't read it and don't participate in it. Nobody is forcing you to click on the thread.

If some other TFC topic interests you, start a thread or respond in another.

What are you expecting to be discussed in the Winter Approval Thread?

I don't think anyone wants to stifle debate, it's just they tend to become pissing contests between people recycling the he said-she said to death rather bringing up new points to add to the debate. It's also spilling over into multiple topics and multiple threads and it does tend to keep people from reading and contributing more.

[ManUtd4ever]

Would anyone here be shocked if we bet chicago on the road? I wouldn't. I'm not saying we are going to win 6 games but I think there are definately 6 winnable games for sure. I do think we could realistically win 4 games and tie a couple more though.

A month ago we had pretty much a zero chance of winning a game 3-2 but now we definately have that capability, even if we give up 2 goals we now have the potential to still win that game.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, because of our shortcomings on the backline, we're also one brainfart away at any given moment from turning a win into a draw or a draw into a loss.

If this club had 2 stud centrebacks, I honestly think it could become one of the top teams in the league.

[Pookie]

I deny every single one of your points here. As I pointed in my previous post, accuracy does not seem to be of importance to you.


Perhaps then you should look into this "Quote" button we have in the forum.

Apparently, when I say:


You suggest that the weak talent level on the team pre-July 15th exposes Winter's weakness as a coach and now a better talent level (which he is responsible for bringing) will cover up his shortcomings.

... and then push "QUOTE" and pull the following from you:



Having an undertalented team meant there was no "cover up" for Winter, exposing his weakeness as a coach.

Having a more talented squad helps cover up his shortcomings, but it doesn't make him a better coach no more than cologne means a person is any cleaner just because you can't smell the sweat.


... somewhere along the line apparently it puts words into your quotes that you didn't say and can therefore deny.

Sheesh.