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Pookie
07-25-2011, 03:18 PM
Found this to be an interesting read. Here is an excerpt along with the link to the full story. It was written by Luke Wileman and published about an hour ago:

... It is a brave and ambitious plan that looks at establishing long-term success rather than finding a quick fix to win at all costs immediately.

Winter's plan is based on four key pillars: style of play, the culture of All For One, player development and results.

Style of Play:
Winter wants his team to play a possession-based attacking game that forces the issue against the opposition and allows his team to control its own destiny. He is demanding a tactical and technical awareness and adaptability from his players and wants the team to impose its own style of play on matches to make life difficult for the opposition. He says the team should always play entertaining soccer and play to win.

Culture of All For One:
Winter is trying to create a culture where soccer comes first and is a way of life for his players. He is aiming to create a winning environment where everyone in the club can share in the success. He wants players of character who are role models and are committed to the team, each other and the community. He is also demanding that his players have a passion for the club and its fans, a respect for the game and the will to win.

Player Development:
Toronto FC plans to identify, recruit, train, develop and retain players in the club's approach and style of play. They describe it as a systematic approach that starts at the earliest age of the Academy and continues right up to the First Team. A key part of player development is the investment in training facilities, scouting, coaching and education to develop professional players and leaders.

Results:
The fourth and final pillar for success outlined by Aron Winter is results. Winning is the ultimate goal and requires each player being fully aware of what his role is within the team. They want to create a team that the fans and community can be proud of.

Full article: http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=372445

Waggy
07-25-2011, 03:29 PM
That all sounds well and good, the question is more will it work here. I tend to think it will, just most of those pillars can't be acheived until 1 complete generation of academy players goes through the first team. Forget a 5 year plan, we won't start to see the long term results for 10 years. The bigger question is in the interum can the team get it together enough to compete so the seeds in the academy have time to grow and mature before Winter et all are run out of town?

But at least the club seems to be thinking about long term goals beyond just "Selling x many tickets, x many jerseys with x overhead cost". I like that. Just as long as they don't fall into the long term results trap and ignore short term stuff. This team needs to compete soon, or else it risks losing the market. I don't want to support the Metrostars

flatpicker
07-25-2011, 03:40 PM
I certainly appreciate the long term goals for continuity and stability within the team and it's academy.
Like Waggy says, this is gonna take some years.

Hopefully they can continue to plug some holes on the first team by bringing in players who are already familiar with this style of play.

I would love to see the club with great stability and cohesion in the coming years.
But we need wins sooner than that.
There's gonna have to be a lot of imported players being brought over during the next few years,
We can't fill the gaps with MLS talent and expect them to fit into Winter's agenda.

prizby
07-25-2011, 04:02 PM
sorry but we still don't have a #10 and well i think kevin aleman was the best #10 we had at the start of the season...RETAIN

Ossington Mental Youth
07-25-2011, 04:21 PM
dunno bout Aleman, especially as he never played an MLS game

CretanBull
07-25-2011, 05:07 PM
This is all great, but playing the Devil's advocate -





Style of Play:

Winter wants his team to play a possession-based attacking game that forces the issue against the opposition and allows his team to control its own destiny. He is demanding a tactical and technical awareness and adaptability from his players and wants the team to impose its own style of play on matches to make life difficult for the opposition. He says the team should always play entertaining soccer and play to win.


This sounds wonderfull and there's no doubt that everyone here wants this, but where's the evidence that we're even heading in this direction? We haven't seen a shredd of possesion-based play, we're certainly not an attack-minded club, we haven't seen anything that suggests any form of tactical and technical awareness and we don't make life difficult for the oppostion - they see us as a break in the schedule. Of course I realize that a massive transition takes time and I don't expect to see Barcelona when I go to a TFC game, but can anyone objectively say that there are signs that we're headed in this direction? I appreciate that this is the long term goal but we haven't seen hints of it yet and we have former players saying that TFC's training sessions are unclear, that the players aren't sure what's expected of them, that there isn't enough instruction etc.

4-3-3 is a great system to watch, but before it was picked and out club was stamped with it, did anyone bother to check to see if it would work in the MLS? This is a league of physical 'chippy' players especially in the midfield and on D where there's constant pressure on the ball and over-crowded midfields. If we're up against 4-5-1, can we really be down 2 men in the midfield where most MLS games are decided?



Culture of All For One:
Winter is trying to create a culture where soccer comes first and is a way of life for his players. He is aiming to create a winning environment where everyone in the club can share in the success. He wants players of character who are role models and are committed to the team, each other and the community. He is also demanding that his players have a passion for the club and its fans, a respect for the game and the will to win.


A winning environment can only come from winning, and you can't make "All for One" claims while marginalizing players over contract issues. Again, I understand that its a transition period for the club and they need to make changes to be successful in their new outlook, but you can't talk about a winning environment while losing, or talk about team spirit while mistreating your players.



Player Development:
Toronto FC plans to identify, recruit, train, develop and retain players in the club's approach and style of play. They describe it as a systematic approach that starts at the earliest age of the Academy and continues right up to the First Team. A key part of player development is the investment in training facilities, scouting, coaching and education to develop professional players and leaders.


Kevin Aleman. We had the best young player in the country and pushed him out over a silly issue.



Results:
The fourth and final pillar for success outlined by Aron Winter is results. Winning is the ultimate goal and requires each player being fully aware of what his role is within the team. They want to create a team that the fans and community can be proud of.


I'm fine with this. Although I worry about whether or not every player can be fully aware of what his role is when there's an admitted confusion from the players themselves and so many people are playing out of position.

Detroit_TFC
07-26-2011, 01:55 AM
Read Brilliant Orange by David Winner. All will be clear once you do. I'm somewhat pessimistic on the prospects for success, regardless if it's Winter, Ruud Gullit or Frank Rijikaard trying to do it here. I don't think a team of North American players can replicate the Dutch style. Read the book and you'll see why, a lot of it is cultural. Having said that, if he somehow is successful it would be way ahead of anything you see in MLS. The problem is if the elements of Dutch style are only partially implemented, the team will never win. High risk, high reward.

CretanBull
07-26-2011, 04:25 AM
^ I read that book years ago :D

ensco
07-26-2011, 07:13 AM
I can't even read this tripe anymore.

We are fans of a team that has won 1 game in 20 against non-expansion teams, that plays with shocking ineptitude, and all we get are lectures.

MG42
07-26-2011, 07:39 AM
Read Brilliant Orange by David Winner. All will be clear once you do. I'm somewhat pessimistic on the prospects for success, regardless if it's Winter, Ruud Gullit or Frank Rijikaard trying to do it here. I don't think a team of North American players can replicate the Dutch style. Read the book and you'll see why, a lot of it is cultural. Having said that, if he somehow is successful it would be way ahead of anything you see in MLS. The problem is if the elements of Dutch style are only partially implemented, the team will never win. High risk, high reward.

that guy is awsome!

http://static.moviefanatic.com/images/gallery/frank-ricard.jpg

Heathen
07-26-2011, 07:54 AM
TFC and "The System" remind me of a kid at a High School science contest. While he could build a really good volcano or ant farm, that would stand a reasonable chance of winning based on previous history, he decides to build a functioning hadron collider. Now if it works he's going to blow the opposition away and win by a mile but the chances of it turning out that way are pretty slim. In fact the probability is just as high that he'll blow himself up.

Beach_Red
07-26-2011, 08:12 AM
^ Ha, yeah exactly. But if it fails it's our fault, stupid Canadians not smart enough to figure out the system.

It reminds me of a lot of the lectures I got at the Canadian Film Center about making more "important" movies than Hollywood, just not as successful at the box office.

ryan
07-26-2011, 08:16 AM
TFC and "The System" remind me of a kid at a High School science contest. While he could build a really good volcano or ant farm, that would stand a reasonable chance of winning based on previous history, he decides to build a functioning hadron collider. Now if it works he's going to blow the opposition away and win by a mile but the chances of it turning out that way are pretty slim. In fact the probability is just as high that he'll blow himself up.

Well the kid is a doofus and didn't have any friends to begin with, so what's there to lose?

__wowza
07-26-2011, 08:18 AM
we're certainly not an attack-minded club, we haven't seen anything that suggests any form of tactical and technical awareness and we don't make life difficult for the oppostion -

the last fifteen minutes of the chicago game last week.
thats all the evidence i need on that.

if we could keep that consistent we'd be set.

menefreghista
07-26-2011, 08:30 AM
I can't even read this tripe anymore.

We are fans of a team that has won 1 game in 20 against non-expansion teams, that plays with shocking ineptitude, and all we get are lectures.

I agree with you.

But for the people who still believe in Winter these articles are like porn.

cherono
07-26-2011, 08:39 AM
While this plan looks good on paper, it doesn’t seem possible at present. Rather, it seems we’re entrenching a culture of defeat along with a league wide reputation for mistreating players. It’s shows a worrying amount of stubbornness and callous lack of adaptability. Far be it from us to casually snipe at the total overhaul and (re)building of an entire football club, but there are serious signs of the real inability of this current set-up to produce long term on-field success (barring some sort of geographical fortune wherein the next Messi happens to be living in Mimico and decides to join our academy).
As a counterview, have a look at Tim Vickery’s latest article on Copa champions and WC semi-finalists Uruguay, and their manager Oscar Tabarez in particular:


"One of his conclusions was that Uruguay's national teams, at all levels, should play the 4-3-3 formation. This hardline philosophy lasted exactly one competitive game. In their debut in the 2007 Copa in Venezuela, Uruguay were taken apart on the road to a 3-0 defeat by Peru. "Reality was too strong for us," commented the coach afterwards. Time for a rethink. Tabarez understood that Uruguay had to acknowledge their limitations. They had to change their gameplan in accordance with the strengths and weaknesses of the opponent.”
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timvickery/2011/07/victorious_uruguay_are_here_to.html (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timvickery/2011/07/victorious_uruguay_are_here_to.html))

For a coach at the top end of international football to have a greater awareness of player limitations and tactical adaptability than Winter – in MLS, indeed – strikes me as a serious issue. That being said... man, it’d be great if this plan came to fruition

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 09:06 AM
This is a list of wants.

As an employer, I look for a list of hows.

This is more platitude than practical information.

Section 117
07-26-2011, 09:13 AM
I want to throw this out there...

Is not better to have a plan or vision on where the management wants the club to become or would people rather have Mo's plan which no existent. Maybe Winter isnt the best coach, but he also technical director. So I am he has laid out his plan so we know what he is trying to accomplish.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 09:14 AM
Mo did have a 5 year plan.

Yohan
07-26-2011, 09:16 AM
Mo did have a 5 year plan.

Oh come on. This has to be a tongue in cheek comment, right?

ag futbol
07-26-2011, 09:21 AM
Lots of people have plans, the question is: can they execute them?

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 09:23 AM
Oh come on. This has to be a tongue in cheek comment, right?


Obviously. But not by much.

The difference with Winter's plan and Mo's plan is that Winter (or TFC because I doubt these are Winter's words) has put better thought to verbalizing it. But the similarities between the two plans is they are both short on implementation processes as well as performance measures (accountability). They're heavy on philosphy and light on details. That's all I am saying.

After all, if Mo did not have a 5 year plan, what did we wait 4 years for exactly?

Beach_Red
07-26-2011, 09:30 AM
I want to throw this out there...

Is not better to have a plan or vision on where the management wants the club to become or would people rather have Mo's plan which no existent. Maybe Winter isnt the best coach, but he also technical director. So I am he has laid out his plan so we know what he is trying to accomplish.


Is this a plan for TFC or for all of Toronto, or all of Ontario? All this role model stuff and "representing your community" stuff, as if we've never had a sports team here before.

Okay, so our soccer isn't organized as well as our hockey or football or lacrosse - they might actually have a look into those sports to see how they manage to produce so many good players in this culture.

Like Ensco says, it's not a plan, it's a lecture and like Roogsey says there's no talking about how it's going to be done.

Is this a plan that could be applied anywhere in the world, regardless of what kind of culture is already there? That's the attitude that makes this so arrogant.

Anyway, it's nice to know where our ticket money is going.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 09:46 AM
Exactly Beach.

I mean, he could put out a plan that says "I will win the MLS Cup in 3 years!" Nice, but the important details are the answers to the questions that should naturally follow.

Whoop
07-26-2011, 09:52 AM
I think Mo had a plan in place, but he wasn't able to adapt when things changed and that resulted the clusterfuck that ensued.

It's easy to say "I have a plan" but the details are important.

I will say having been part of a 5 year plan in real life it's pretty sweet when it does come together.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 09:52 AM
I had an 80 year plan.

It was going fine, then I had a kid. :lol:

Whoop
07-26-2011, 09:58 AM
How did you adapt? ;)

Canary10
07-26-2011, 10:15 AM
This is a list of wants.

As an employer, I look for a list of hows.

This is more platitude than practical information.

You need to know where you're going first before you can have a plan to get there. Glad to see there's a good solid vision in place.

Given that this is a news report, it's unlikley we're going to get all the "hows." A few were discussed in other newspaper articles though. We're putting in place TFC teams down to under 13. New training facilities are being built. A formal scouting structure is being put in place in strategic areas around the world. Don't know the entire how, but this is a good start.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 10:18 AM
But most of that vision was already in place before Winter got here. We're acting like he's brought in new ideas. Other than the style, I don't see anything different than before.

All for one? That was here already.
Player development? Winter didn't start the Academy and it's current success is actually traced back to the previous regime.
Results? Neither regime has gotten them.

So other than style, he hasn't changed anything and yet it's being lauded as a new vision? I don't get it.

So that's my problem with the vision, but to me that is insignificant to HOW things get done. You can blow smoke up my ass all you want, but unless you figure out how to get things done, you can put out mottos and visionary statements every year if you want, it doesn't make you successful.

__wowza
07-26-2011, 10:21 AM
Mo did have a 5 year plan.

i understand the comparison, but personally, i believe winter more based on the following:

- he's implemented his system
- he's training players based off of this system
- if they cant grasp it, he finds players who can


if anyone wants to explain how any of the pre-winter moves fit into some sort of 5 year plan, im all ears. unless, that is, that the five year plan involved a revolving door of players/coaches/staff with minimal results. the 5 year plan was just their way of saying "give us five years and we'll figure out a plan".

Canary10
07-26-2011, 10:26 AM
There was never a plan to going to an under 12 youth system. Certainly not to play a certain type of football within it. Whethere there was a plan for a formal scouting structure or not, it never happened under Mo - all he did is take trips to Brazil every once in a while. Certainly never a plan for how the top team would play. Only ad hoc adding and subtracting of players.

Canary10
07-26-2011, 10:29 AM
...if Mo had a plan, even the vision wasn't communicated let alone the how's. I never heard it in 4 years.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 10:33 AM
I think we're mistaking having a poor plan with having no plan at all.

Mo's plan was to trade his way into a good team. Being the only Canadian team, he thought he could get the cream of Canada's soccer players (who would be cheap to get anyways) to field a good team. To round things out, he thought he would bring in his UK players through his contacts. And whenever he'd need to fill a spot, Mr Maclean would be there to provide him with cheap filler. He felt the advantage TFC would have would be physical athleticism, which is why under Carver they brought in Paul W.

Further down the road, he wanted to sign Academy players to fill out the ranks as well.

Awful plan. No accounting for cohesion. No risk measurements. No stop-losses along the way. When things went south, he panicked and started bringing in DPs that had no sensible fit with this team.

The only thing that Winter has done that makes his plan better than Mo's is the choice to concentrate on style. But even that has been a double-edged sword as his adherence and inflexibility to the style has given him worse performances than every before.

But almost everything else remains as it did before. There is no cohesion, in fact the lockerroom is a cold, unfriendly place instead of a warm inviting refuge like it should be. There are no risk measurements. He's already pullled the stop-losses with the DPs, so that bullet is used up. Mariner has become Trader-Mo part 2.

I don't know, I see more similarities with the previous regime than most I suppose. And it bothers me.

The one difference is that there is no playing around with contracts. I will at least give this current management the credit that they take decisive action, although I disagree with the reasons they do it. In some cases, it seems almost vindictive in nature. But compared to Mo and his snakey ways, it is indeed completely different, although I would not call it ideal.

ag futbol
07-26-2011, 11:00 AM
"He's got a five year plan!"

ERyUYfsAPpM

Canary10
07-26-2011, 11:36 AM
I love it when ad hochery is called a plan...

mdc 77
07-26-2011, 11:40 AM
If someone wants to compare Mo's "plan" with Winter's then wouldn't you have to wait another 3 1/2 years?

Beach_Red
07-26-2011, 12:22 PM
I love it when ad hochery is called a plan...

Ad hochery can be a plan - especially in a business that's based completely on human resources. I work in the TV/movie business and you can't plan very far into the future because you have no idea which shows will be hits and which people will stay around if they are, so the people who are better at ad hochery (I like that term ;)) become known in retrospect as great planners.

So, by 2009 TFC had ad hoched (hmm, not as good a term) its way to a team that was almost good.

But you're right, ad hochery was the plan. But it started higher up than Mo. The first year MLSE hired Mo and some assistants on one year contracts. At the end of the year the assistants (none of whom had moved their families to Canada) left. What kind of management accepts a five year plan from someone on a one year contract?

And that's partly the issue here, too. Winter is on a three year contract. Will that contract get extended if the academy is looking good but the senior team fails to make the playoffs every year? What if the senior team start winning (with DPs and guys from all over the world) but the academy doesn't retain its best players, is that a success?

What exactly are we paying for with our season tickets?

ensco
07-26-2011, 12:25 PM
Winter does not have a plan. By definition.

Winter has a contract. Mo had a contract.

MLSE had a plan, now it has a new plan. The very same people who brought you the old plan are bringing you the new plan.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 12:25 PM
What exactly are we paying for with our season tickets?


Apparently, tryouts and trial sessions.

CretanBull
07-26-2011, 12:27 PM
I want to throw this out there...

Is not better to have a plan or vision on where the management wants the club to become or would people rather have Mo's plan which no existent. Maybe Winter isnt the best coach, but he also technical director. So I am he has laid out his plan so we know what he is trying to accomplish.

I defintely appreciate the fact that there's a defined, laid out plan. My questions are - Is it the right plan for this league? Is it being properly implemented? and are we progressing?

The issue of progress is maybe something that can be delayed due to a transition period (although some signs of improvement would be nice!), but the first two questions are largely unanswered. We could be going down the right path with the wrong person, going down the wrong path with the right person or going down the wrong path with the wrong person. Based on what we've seen so far I'm struggling to believe that we're on the right path with the right person.

ensco
07-26-2011, 12:37 PM
Be interesting to see how the New 5 Year Plan holds together when the SSHs start dropping like an anvil through rice paper.

menefreghista
07-26-2011, 12:52 PM
This clip reminds me of TFC's plan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP08RMumatI

TO DEVILS
07-26-2011, 01:08 PM
Winter does not have a plan. By definition.

Winter has a contract. Mo had a contract.

MLSE had a plan, now it has a new plan. The very same people who brought you the old plan are bringing you the new plan.


A plan is only as good as the people executing it.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 01:09 PM
A plan also has measurables.

Where are the measurables in the TSN article?

TO DEVILS
07-26-2011, 01:11 PM
Be interesting to see how the New 5 Year Plan holds together when the SSHs start dropping like an anvil through rice paper.

Then its time for Plan B.

TO DEVILS
07-26-2011, 01:12 PM
A plan also has measurables.

Where are the measurables in the TSN article?

A wise man once said...

Making a plan is actually very easy. But as everyone knows, creating a plan and executing a plan are two very different things.

Every company has limit on its ability to execute a plan. The size, background, existing workload, dedication, difficulty of the task and many other factors play parts in the company’s ability to execute.

When defining plans, make sure your goals are feasible and within the limits of the teams that will have to carry out those plans.

Pookie
07-26-2011, 01:14 PM
A plan also has measurables.

Where are the measurables in the TSN article?

I think it is pretty clear to all that the "summary" doesn't include Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic and Timely objectives.

Besides, even if they did you'd simply argue that the timeline was unrealistic.

Winter can do no right. Should be fired. Got it. Thanks.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 01:20 PM
I think it is pretty clear to all that the "summary" doesn't include Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic and Timely objectives.

Besides, even if they did you'd simply argue that the timeline was unrealistic.

Winter can do no right. Should be fired. Got it. Thanks.


Without those things, it's not a plan at all, it's a philosophy.

So if this is Winter's "plan", then yeah, he didn't get it right. Now if he does have a more concise, specific "plan", then that should be called the plan, not this propaganda.

Pookie
07-26-2011, 01:23 PM
Luke Wileman called his article "Winter's Plan."

I even put the title of the thread as "Our Plan: According to Wileman" just so folks wouldn't get confused. I now see the futility of trying to help not confuse folks.

I'm sure Winter has his jotted down his own notes in what is actually a "plan" and he likely hasn't published it on TSN, in case you are looking.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 01:26 PM
So Wileman misspoke? Got it. So as of yet, we don't know if Winter even has a plan.

Canary10
07-26-2011, 01:27 PM
First rule of communications is no one cares about the implementation of a plan...

Pookie
07-26-2011, 01:40 PM
So Wileman misspoke? Got it. So as of yet, we don't know if Winter even has a plan.

See, what Wileman did was provide a summary of a conversation he had with Winter regarding his plan. Therefore, the plan, according to Wileman's summary, was presented in this thread.

See, he didn't reprint Winter's plan, word for word. He didn't publish Winter's goal for every training session, milestones, players that they are interested in at future transfer windows, scouting reports, in game player stats, results of interviews with the players he conducted at the beginning of the season, etc.

So again see, this is a summary of what Winter discussed with him not the reprint of the full plan.

There is still some value in it without S.M.A.R.T goals being published. For example, where Wileman reports that Winter is "... trying to create a culture where soccer comes first and is a way of life for his players. ... He wants players of character who are role models and are committed to the team, each other... "

We can clearly see that is the guiding principle behind moving out a player like DeRo and brining in a player like Frings.

So, while you don't get the full on published outcomes of player interviews, incidents, etc, you can see that, in a general sense, there is a guiding principle behind his moves.

Now, if you need the full on details, just use your connections and see if you can get yourself a copy.

Not sure how it really matters to you though. Your book is closed on him anyways.

Beach_Red
07-26-2011, 01:41 PM
Luke Wileman called his article "Winter's Plan."

I even put the title of the thread as "Our Plan: According to Wileman" just so folks wouldn't get confused. I now see the futility of trying to help not confuse folks.

I'm sure Winter has his jotted down his own notes in what is actually a "plan" and he likely hasn't published it on TSN, in case you are looking.


It was a mistake by MLSE to offer up Winter as the point man for this plan. Though not a susprising move (he can be easily sacrificed and no one at head office will care). There's no one else in the organization who could speak to this kind of plan with any authority (imagine how much fun this thread would be if they'd tried to sell it as, "Anselmi's plan...") and there's no way they're going to bring in someone with that kind of authority (really I just mean reputation) on a full-time basis (Klinsmann as a consultant is fine, no one in upper management will ever feel threatened by a consultant).

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 01:51 PM
Not sure how it really matters to you though. Your book is closed on him anyways.

Of course it is. I don't believe in blind faith and based on that stand, why would I place my faith in him?

What do I have now? Extremely poor results in the standings. A "plan" with nothing that makes it a "plan" (no deliverables, measurables, timeline). Contradicting actions to the philosophy (building a future on the backs of aging DPs and loaned players?), lack of strategy and tactics mid-game, and ultimately, questionable player management?

So the one area where it doesn't require much effort to actually come through, providing the fans and the readers some specifics with regards to this grandiose "plan" and all we get is platitudes?

I don't see much choice but to continue doubting him.

How many times have I and others asked for some kind of evidence, any kind of evidence that backs up all of this faith being placed in him and gotten nothing but crickets? Provide something of worth before rolling your eyes at the doubts being generated. It's like you are asking us to believe in leperchauns and you get upset because people don't believe you outright.

DangerRed
07-26-2011, 01:57 PM
Again, this is just a wish list from the start of the season. How is this a revelation, exactly?

You want to be realistic, ask yourself how many of these fronts we have actually advanced on.

Style of play? Oh yes -- when you possess 20% of the ball, you're kicking ass.

Results? Come on.

Player Development? Yes, Oscar Cordon will one day be a servicable MLS player. One day. A long time from now.

The only one up for debate is All for One, but does it seem to you like the coach who just purged the entire squad really has the locker room under control? Do you feel players are going out of their way to support each other in the current environment?

But whatever, Wheeler said it, so it must be true. It's our plan.

:facepalm:

Canary10
07-26-2011, 02:10 PM
Apparently Mariner is at Yonge-Dundas Square tomorrow. Maybe the people who want to see a more fulsome plan can get him to run through the slide deck.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 02:10 PM
Again, this is just a wish list from the start of the season. How is this a revelation, exactly?

You want to be realistic, ask yourself how many of these fronts we have actually advanced on.

Style of play? Oh yes -- when you possess 20% of the ball, you're kicking ass.

Results? Come on.

Player Development? Yes, Oscar Cordon will one day be a servicable MLS player. One day. A long time from now.

The only one up for debate is All for One, but does it seem to you like the coach who just purged the entire squad really has the locker room under control? Do you feel players are going out of their way to support each other in the current environment?

But whatever, Wheeler said it, so it must be true. It's our plan.

:facepalm:

Peterson tweeted yesterday welcoming Ty Harden to the world of twitter and referred to him as one of "the few guys I'll miss"....

There are reports of fights between players, fights between players and coaches and a generally negative environment.

Sounds like a great lockerroom.

Pookie
07-26-2011, 02:16 PM
Of course it is. I don't believe in blind faith and based on that stand, why would I place my faith in him?

...
How many times have I and others asked for some kind of evidence, any kind of evidence that backs up all of this faith being placed in him and gotten nothing but crickets? Provide something of worth ....



Got it. You want him fired. Thanks.

Pookie
07-26-2011, 02:20 PM
The only one up for debate is All for One, but does it seem to you like the coach who just purged the entire squad really has the locker room under control? Do you feel players are going out of their way to support each other in the current environment?


This is the interesting one. If entire squad was indeed purged you could talk about it as a character thing and question control.

Or since there is all this talk about a system, was there any doubt as to the ability of the previous squad to play it? Of course there was. So, was it a purge based on character or simply a purge to get the quality of players that could grasp the system?

One thing is clear. Dan Gargan is a stand up, character guy who struggled under the new expectations. Dan Gargan is gone and I'd wager it had nothing to do with his work ethic. Clearly, Gargan was released in order to make room for players who could offer more to his position.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 02:23 PM
Got it. You want him fired. Thanks.

Actually I do not.

But it's not surprising yet another mischaracterization from you which I now see is actually done intentionally.

brandrews
07-26-2011, 02:28 PM
Actually I do not.

But it's not surprising yet another mischaracterization from you which I now see is actually done intentionally.

you hate almost everything winter does, and think he is a bad coach with no plan, but you don't want him fired?

what do you want? what would fix this team?

ManUtd4ever
07-26-2011, 02:29 PM
Peterson tweeted yesterday welcomgin Ty Harden to the world of twitter and referred to him as one of "the few guys I'll miss"....

Sounds like a great lockerroom.

I don't think anyone should be reading into Peterson's comment, as most of his former teammates are no longer with the club. It is quite possible that a sense of chemistry was lacking in the locker room last season and earlier this season. Perhaps the character of certain players factored into the thought process relative to some of the player transactions that have transpired since the new management regime was hired.

The current roster consists of a siginficant group of players that are new to the organization. Time will tell if they form a cohesive unit, but it's entirely premature to conclude much of anything regarding the state of the locker room.

CoachGT
07-26-2011, 02:30 PM
One thing is clear. Dan Gargan is a stand up, character guy who struggled under the new expectations. Dan Gargan is gone and I'd wager it had nothing to do with his work ethic. Clearly, Gargan was released in order to make room for players who could offer more to his position.

Personally, I think Gargan's work ethic (combined with our injury situation) is what kept him around this long. Not all players liked his style of play, one former player referring to him as a human red card because of his aggression. I would think it more likely that his inability to control a ball with his feet is his biggest drawback (his throw ins were always great). Under the Preki regime, he looked okay because he was a prototyipcal Preki-styled player, a relatively inexpensive player whose greatest attribute was to disrupt play and play with a hard physical edge. He ended up getting more money than the league minimum at some point last year (I can't remember exactly when).

Under Winter, where skill with the ball has a higher value than physical play for it's own sake, Gargan was exposed as being a fringe player at best, an additional defensive body who could give you a few hard minutes; not particularly quick and only capable of banging a ball out of the zone. With the new bodies coming in, Viator having a little more speed, that leaves him as odd man out.

ensco
07-26-2011, 02:36 PM
There are reports of fights between players, fights between players and coaches and a generally negative environment.

That Martina quote in the ESPN article where he said that "it isn't easy for them, most of the guys here can't trap the ball"...whether he's right or not....that was poison.

I'd bet money there was scrap that involved him over that.

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/6760623/soccer-toronto-fc-manager-aron-winter-mission-mls

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 02:36 PM
you hate almost everything winter does, and think he is a bad coach with no plan, but you don't want him fired?

what do you want? what would fix this team?


Fix this team? Having MLSE sell it for starters, but that is not going to happen.

I have been very clear that I think Winter should finish out the year. There is no net benefit to firing him now. I think his hiring was a mistake but what is done is done. Now that he is here, firing him would simply damage the team more and solidify this year as a complete waste.

What I would like to see (and I am not holding my breath) is a guarantee that TFC will make the playoffs next year (in addition to holding on to the NCC of course). Anything short of that should be considered a failure and somebody's head should roll. Given that he has been compared to Backe and Kreis, both of whom did accomplish that feat, this should be no problem given such faith people have in him.

I don't think people realize the magniture of missing the playoffs for a 6th year in a row. Playoffs next year are not an option.

brandrews
07-26-2011, 02:37 PM
in my opinion, these are some of the measurable areas that i would suspect the coaching staff would be paying attention to, based on what i understand the plan to be.

- commitment level of players to training and team functions
- percentage of possession during games
- noticeable improvement in player movement and positioning
- better first touches and passing ability
- interchangeability between multiple positions effectively

pekduck
07-26-2011, 02:39 PM
That Martina quote in the ESPN article where he said that most of the guys here can't trap the ball...whether he's right or not....that was poison. I'd bet money there was scrap that involved him over that.

it is all relative, the right in a group of wrong is treated as wrong. not until the number of rights outnumbers the number of wrongs, the collective is still wrong.

ensco
07-26-2011, 02:44 PM
it is all relative, the right in a group of wrong is treated as wrong. not until the number of rights outnumbers the number of wrongs, the collective is still wrong.

No, you just can't say that in the papers. That stays in the room. This is high school stuff. Winter should have publicly rebuked him for that.

Interesting that he didn't, given how hard he has gone after other players publicly for their "sins".

brandrews
07-26-2011, 02:48 PM
Actually I do not.

But it's not surprising yet another mischaracterization from you which I now see is actually done intentionally.


Fix this team? Having MLSE sell it for starters, but that is not going to happen.

I have been very clear that I think Winter should finish out the year. There is no net benefit to firing him now. I think his hiring was a mistake but what is done is done. Now that he is here, firing him would simply damage the team more and solidify this year as a complete waste.

What I would like to see (and I am not holding my breath) is a guarantee that TFC will make the playoffs next year (in addition to holding on to the NCC of course). Anything short of that should be considered a failure and somebody's head should roll. Given that he has been compared to Backe and Kreis, both of whom did accomplish that feat, this should be no problem given such faith people have in him.

I don't think people realize the magniture of missing the playoffs for a 6th year in a row. Playoffs next year are not an option.

so you do want him fired, just not until the end of the season, correct?

what would a playoff guarantee accomplish? just hollow words anyways.

what is the magnitude of missing the playoffs next year in your opinion? team folds?

i'm not sure how winter is going to end up doing; i have liked some things so far (most of the player movement for example), and others not so much (a lot of his substitutions confuse me).

i haven't seen many examples of this blind faith you talk about, though; certainly not recently. most people seem to kind of be on the fence at this point, and anytime that i've seen the backe and kreis examples used has been simply pointing out other situations where a turnaround has taken place after some shit times. so really, people are just saying that in their opinion, this team turning its fortunes around for next year is possible.

TFC Cityboy
07-26-2011, 02:50 PM
no one in their right mind will "guarantee" a playoff place or anything for that matter.
I'm trying really hard to believe in this long term plan, but it is really pushing the boundaries of my trust and belief.
So far this season, while we have seen more entertaining football than last year the results have been worse, the defence is atrocious and we have won 3 of 23 league games.

I'm in it for the long haul and really want to back what the club is doing, but I would not have expected us to be so far adrift of the pack by July as we currently are.

Perhaps once Dunfield and JDG are fit we'll improve, and start to see better short-term results, but with our back 4 it's a massive leap of faith and renewal time could be ugly.

Beach_Red
07-26-2011, 02:52 PM
No, you just can't say that in the papers. That stays in the room. This is high school stuff. Winter should have publicly rebuked him for that.

Interesting that he didn't, given how hard he has gone after other players publicly for their "sins".


He would have only gone after him for that if the goal was to win games this season with these players.

ManUtd4ever
07-26-2011, 03:02 PM
In my opinion, the TSN article depicts that which is akin to a mission statement for the organization, nothing more. Unfortunately, the thread has degenerated into a familiar array of condemnation of every facet of the organization, based on false pretenses. I think Wileman's title is misleading.

If anyone wants to know the particulars of the strategy that the management regime is implementing to try to make this club successful in the foreseeable future, look no further than the player transactions that have taken place in 2011.

Winter is now at a point where he can be judged accordingly based on the results, as he has effectively put his stamp on the roster. As of last week, the bulk of the starting lineup consists of players he has identified as being condusive with his vision of attacking football. In the next several weeks, we will witness first hand if the plan will come to fruition.

Pookie
07-26-2011, 03:07 PM
Actually I do not.

But it's not surprising yet another mischaracterization from you which I now see is actually done intentionally.

My bad.

You want proof he will be successful in the future before he starts and then you want him fired because win or lose he has shortcomings that are either exposed or covered up.

Hope that more completely represents your views on the subject. Thanks

ManUtd4ever
07-26-2011, 03:13 PM
i haven't seen many examples of this blind faith you talk about, though; certainly not recently. most people seem to kind of be on the fence at this point, and anytime that i've seen the backe and kreis examples used has been simply pointing out other situations where a turnaround has taken place after some shit times. so really, people are just saying that in their opinion, this team turning its fortunes around for next year is possible.

Agreed. No matter how many times this point of view has been inferred, those of us that have reserved judgment are being accused of having blind faith. It's already been mentioned by myself and others, and it serves no purpose other than to create an adversarial tone to an intelligent discussion among fellow supporters.

lobo
07-26-2011, 03:17 PM
oops, sorry, pardon me ... i didn't realize this was the thread for jaded-cynics-who-want-immediate-results-and-will-never-be-happy-even-when-the-foundational-four-pillars-of-a-plan-are-published-which-are-just-ignored-because-the-minutae-details-of-the-plan-weren't-published-first-even-though-they-would-never-be-good-enough

excuse me, sorry to interrupt your little party

phonzo
07-26-2011, 03:18 PM
I will agree with roogsy that it will be nice to see in the coming weeks some commitments on what we can expect to see next year. Commitments with meaning and that can be measured.

As for this year yes some of winters "plans" have already been in place academy, all for one but as long as he stresses value on those points rather then using them buzz words then that is already a step forward.

Also cause it makes me laugh

http://rickpdx.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/ani-comments-you-spin-me-right-round.gif

pekduck
07-26-2011, 03:25 PM
No, you just can't say that in the papers. That stays in the room. This is high school stuff. Winter should have publicly rebuked him for that.

Interesting that he didn't, given how hard he has gone after other players publicly for their "sins".

if you were referring to the publicity yes i can see your point

it's just the clash of non-north american culture and north american culture, here we try to sugar coat everything and give out awards to kids finishing last in school for effort, everywhere else in the world, you are told you are shit in public so you grow up

BFin
07-26-2011, 03:27 PM
http://troll.me/images/the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world/i-dont-always-argue-but-when-i-do-i-fucking-win.jpg

Beach_Red
07-26-2011, 03:31 PM
if you were referring to the publicity yes i can see your point

it's just the clash of non-north american culture and north american culture, here we try to sugar coat everything and give out awards to kids finishing last in school for effort, everywhere else in the world, you are told you are shit in public so you grow up


Sorry, but that's just bullshit.

pekduck
07-26-2011, 03:39 PM
Sorry, but that's just bullshit.

Geert Hofstede Cultural Dimension
http://www.geert-hofstede.com/

US and Canada with the highest individualism score in the world, most other countries score really low and tend to favor collectivism

etc etc.

Project dynamics in Europe/Asia and project dynamics in USA are drastically different, and hilarious at the same time.

Beach_Red
07-26-2011, 03:46 PM
Geert Hofstede Cultural Dimension
http://www.geert-hofstede.com/

US and Canada with the highest individualism score in the world, most other countries score high on collectivism

etc etc.

Project dynamics in Europe and project dynamics in USA are drastically different, and hilarious at the same time.


Yeah, the dynamics are different, but really what we're talking about here is the, "we try to sugar coat everything and give out awards to kids finishing last in school for effort, everywhere else in the world, you are told you are shit in public so you grow up," which has more to do with being middle-class than with group dynamics.

Soccer is a middle-class sport in North America, treated very differently from football and basketball and hockey. Which is too bad, maybe, but that's the way it is.

pekduck
07-26-2011, 03:50 PM
Yeah, the dynamics are different, but really what we're talking about here is the, "we try to sugar coat everything and give out awards to kids finishing last in school for effort, everywhere else in the world, you are told you are shit in public so you grow up," which has more to do with being middle-class than with group dynamics.

Soccer is a middle-class sport in North America, treated very differently from football and basketball and hockey. Which is too bad, maybe, but that's the way it is.

lol, yeah the hyperbole on message board doesn't always have the intended rhetorical effect here

no, i'm not disapproving ensco's view or approving his view, i just speculate cultural differences is the reason that Martina and Winter will speak as is without any reservation or consideration of consequences

Beach_Red
07-26-2011, 03:59 PM
lol, yeah the hyperbole on message board doesn't always have the intended rhetorical effect here

no, i'm not disapproving ensco's view or approving his view, i just speculate cultural differences is the reason that Martina and Winter will speak as is without any reservation or consideration of consequences


Ha, yeah, message boards. Well, you're probably right and that's part of what this thread is about. Trying to push through this kind of plan without taking any cultural differences into account could make it very difficult to implement. Usually we could then say something like, "Oh well, it's their money..."

ensco
07-26-2011, 04:18 PM
Anybody who thinks players in Europe or Asia, in any sport, call out most of their teammates to reporters on the record, without consequences, is wrong.

pekduck
07-26-2011, 04:23 PM
Anybody who thinks players in Europe or Asia, in any sport, call out most of their teammates to reporters on the record, without consequences, is wrong.

Europe not too sure, Asia, almost happens every other week. It's part of the 'entertainment'

Right or wrong is also relative, lol

edit: in a more serious note, superior calling out subordinates publicly is commonly accepted, peer calling out peer is not unheard of but when context is appropriate the person doesn't always get crucified

ensco
07-26-2011, 04:29 PM
Agreed. No matter how many times this point of view has been inferred, those of us that have reserved judgment are being accused of having blind faith. It's already been mentioned by myself and others, and it serves no purpose other than to create an adversarial tone to an intelligent discussion among fellow supporters.

What's wrong with a dustup about something important? Who cares if it's adversarial? Why is that important?

I could easily argue that the debate serves a highly useful purpose. If it turns out that Winter is the calamity some think he is, it would be better to have the full debate now.

We should not be squelching debate.

ManUtd4ever
07-26-2011, 05:12 PM
What's wrong with a dustup about something important? Who cares if it's adversarial? Why is that important?

I could easily argue that the debate serves a highly useful purpose. If it turns out that Winter is the calamity some think he is, it would be better to have the full debate now.

We should not be squelching debate.

Absolutely. If I'm not mistaken, a debate is not supposed to entail a mischaracterization of an opposing view, and that was the message I was trying to convey. It becomes counter productive when opinions are intentionally misinterpreted to further one's agenda.

ag futbol
07-26-2011, 05:31 PM
That Martina quote in the ESPN article where he said that "it isn't easy for them, most of the guys here can't trap the ball"...whether he's right or not....that was poison.

I'd bet money there was scrap that involved him over that.

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/6760623/soccer-toronto-fc-manager-aron-winter-mission-mls
The quotes from Martina in this article are comical.

denime
07-26-2011, 05:35 PM
That Martina quote in the ESPN article where he said that "it isn't easy for them, most of the guys here can't trap the ball"...whether he's right or not....that was poison.

I'd bet money there was scrap that involved him over that.

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/6760623/soccer-toronto-fc-manager-aron-winter-mission-mls

You would lose the money on that bet,if there was scrap it was before July15 and if you look the date of that interview it's obvious it was 4 days after departure of 3-4 wannabee soccer players that can't control the ball.


The Dutch coaching duo also lamented a lack of professionalism among the players. "There was no soccer mentality," de Klerk said. "It was more of a hobby. They're not accustomed to going all out for their sport. Soccer is a way of life, and that includes eating, drinking, focusing, everything. People here are accustomed to demanding something other than the maximum in practices, too."
"During our practices you see that simple kicks and passes and basic things like trapping go wrong. That's still really hard for them. With the ball at their feet, they have some trouble here, making them seek out the long ball quickly, rather than try to play soccer."Truth hurts,but that's the life.

Heathen
07-26-2011, 05:47 PM
Has Martina watched himself play lol

ag futbol
07-26-2011, 05:50 PM
Has Martina watched himself play lol
bingo

Detroit_TFC
07-26-2011, 05:54 PM
^ I read that book years ago :D

Read it again, keeping in mind what's happened in the last 7 months with TFC.

ensco
07-26-2011, 05:55 PM
Seems weird that Gargan got released after July 1, and no replacement was lined up. Maybe Gargan got released because he was in a fight.

Roogsy?

menefreghista
07-26-2011, 05:56 PM
Seems weird that Gargan got released after July 1, and no replacement was lined up. Maybe Gargan got released because he was in a fight.

Roogsy?

Or they gave him a front office job?

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 08:06 PM
My bad.

You want proof he will be successful in the future before he starts and then you want him fired because win or lose he has shortcomings that are either exposed or covered up.

Hope that more completely represents your views on the subject. Thanks

Nope nice try.

Pookie
07-26-2011, 08:39 PM
^ oh, I'm pretty sure that your direct quotes on the subjects reflect what I wrote.

Listen, why do you feel the need to hedge your bet? Your criticism of Winter and "his followers" is over the top. It's clear to most everyone that you want the guy fired. You think he is a bad coach. You want proof his plan would work and haven't seen any evidence. You definitely think that his weaknesses as a coach will be masked by having better players.

So, just say so already and put your flag in the ground of the fire Winter camp.

Are you afraid that if he does succeed you'll be seen as wrong? I've been wrong many times in my life, ask my wife. It's ok to be wrong. At the end of the day, you might even be right.

This silly denial stuff about what you say and what you really mean are growing tiresome. I get your position. I disagree with it and plan to give Winter some time. Nothing much more to say.

BFin
07-26-2011, 08:50 PM
I don't get your point Pookie. Winter being fired was never the point of this thread.

Pookie
07-26-2011, 08:51 PM
Seems weird that Gargan got released after July 1, and no replacement was lined up. Maybe Gargan got released because he was in a fight.


The circumstances around this are curious. There appears to be no real cap savings unless Dan was on a non-guaranteed contract and given that the new CBA provided guaranteed contracts for players with more than 3 years of league experience, I can't see him in that position.

These are the club's options:

(III.) METHODS OF RELEASING PLAYERS

(A) WAIVERS

Teams may waive players based on performance at any time during the MLS season. Players with guaranteed contracts will continue to have their salary budget charge applied to the team salary budget, subject to any settlement. Players on semi-guaranteed contracts can be waived prior to July 1 of any year and free up the corresponding budget space. If a player on a semi-guaranteed contract is waived after July 1, his salary budget charge will count against the team’s salary budget and the team waiving the player will not receive a replacement except under the normal player acquisition mechanisms. Any settlement amount will be charged to the team’s salary budget.

(B) TRANSFERS AND LOANS

An MLS player may be transferred or loaned at any time to a team outside the League (subject to that team’s Federation’s transfer window), subject to the consent of the player.

The registration windows – the dates between which MLS may request the transfer certificate of a player under contract in another country – are as follows:

January 21 – April 15 (Primary Window)
July 15 – August 14 (Secondary Window)

(C) CONTRACT EXPIRATION

When a player’s contract expires, the player does not count against the roster or budget of the team in question. Subject to the Re-Entry Draft rules, a team retains the rights to the player indefinitely following the expiration of a contract only if attempts were made to re-sign the player.

(D) BUYOUT OF GUARANTEED CONTRACT

Teams may have the ability to buyout one guaranteed player as follows:

A Team may buy out one (1) guaranteed player (including a DP’s) contract during the off-season and free up the corresponding budget space. Such a buyout is at the particular MLS Team’s own expense.
A Team may not free up budget space with a buyout of a player’s salary budget charge during the season. Such a buyout will be conducted by the League and count on a Club’s budget in a manner consistent with current MLS guidelines.

Unless he's been loaned out, he's either on waivers or bought out. Either way, there appears to be no cap savings so the motivation to make this move is a curious one.

Pookie
07-26-2011, 08:57 PM
I don't get your point Pookie. Winter being fired was never the point of this thread.

Agreed. It wasn't the point of the thread.

backbeat
07-26-2011, 09:00 PM
I don't get your point Pookie. Winter being fired was never the point of this thread.

it may not be the point of this thread, and many other threads, but it is never-the-less the couched point of many posters responses ad nauseum in a variety of thread topics that are not initially about Winter - but there we be....

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 09:39 PM
So, just say so already and put your flag in the ground of the fire Winter camp.



Quite simply because its not what I want due to the circumstances with this team. I am most certainly not hedging my bets because my criticism of Winter is undeniable. I don't like him. But my position is perfectly reasonable. I don't want him fired because this year is a write-off already, firing him won't get us in and all it would do is damage our ability to recruit a real manager in the future. Just because you can't pigeon-hole me into the narrative you want doesn't mean you can mischaracterize my position without response.

I've stated this position repeatedly and if you don't get it by now, the comprehension issues are on your side.

ensco
07-26-2011, 09:59 PM
it may not be the point of this thread, and many other threads, but it is never-the-less the couched point of many posters responses ad nauseum in a variety of thread topics that are not initially about Winter - but there we be....

Here's what is actually happening ad nauseum: self-congratulatory patter from Winter and the TFC PR machine over the last two weeks.

These posts about some sort of irrational thread hijack are....not making sense to me. This thread is about "Winter". Most threads are, one way or the other, given the rate of roster turnover. Has any team ever had only 5 outfield players from the previous season in the following July? That is a topic I intend to return to.

It is perfectly reasonable to be discussing Winter's credentials, and whether he should go, in any of these threads. There is almost no manager in the world who could have the on field showing Winter's team has had, and not be under consideration to be removed. You think MLSE aren't seriously worried about what is going on here? They'll never admit it, but I guarantee you, they are shitting bricks over what is going on. They have given Winter way too long a leash. I bet he has committed $15 million or some such to Frings and Koevermans, who won't sell a single ticket, and they'll just be a year older next year, when Winter flies in 10 more players next year because all the guys he brought in this year sucked. Don't worry, it's part of the plan, there'll be 25 people here leaping to explain the nuances of it all. The casuals, who make up the vast majority of the SSH, will not care about the "plan". They just see the suckage, and the absurd rate of turnover. Thousands of them aren't coming back next year, I'll wager abyone on this. Most fans don't cheer for the laundry, they cheer for players.

I get that this vexes many, for some good reasons too, but there it is. It's real, and it's not going away. There are too many problems. Winter is on track to be gone. Like many others, I hope the attempt to brand TFC as a home of attractive football survives.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 10:11 PM
It is mindboggling to me that our team can be 3-11-9 and people are upset that there is a contingent of fans that question the coach? This is a surprise?

denime
07-26-2011, 10:18 PM
Because is annoying that's why.

It's not about Winter anymore it is about contingent of few making this board look like Big Soccer,in spite .that's why you have a big contingent of fans supporting the Winter,because of few this boards and SG suffers but who cares,it's not about TFC support anymore it's few vs rest.

ManUtd4ever
07-26-2011, 10:26 PM
Ultimately, the majority of supporters and casual fans are loyal to the badge, not the players. I agree that constant player turnover can inhibit the ability of the fan base to identify with the team per say, but I guarantee that winning games would solve that problem in a hurry. If the new additions to the roster go on to form the nucleus of a successful club, the fans will undoubtedly endear themselves to those players, because they represent the badge.

brad
07-26-2011, 10:34 PM
^^I think in some cases you are correct about players cd the badge, but not in all. I hear people booing and mocking our players while cheering for DeRo at almost every match.

I do agree that winning will change this though - but it ha to start happening while there are still enough people in the stadium to take note.

Pookie
07-26-2011, 10:35 PM
Quite simply because its not what I want due to the circumstances with this team. I am most certainly not hedging my bets because my criticism of Winter is undeniable. I don't like him. But my position is perfectly reasonable. I don't want him fired because this year is a write-off already, firing him won't get us in and all it would do is damage our ability to recruit a real manager in the future. Just because you can't pigeon-hole me into the narrative you want doesn't mean you can mischaracterize my position without response.

I've stated this position repeatedly and if you don't get it by now, the comprehension issues are on your side.

Mischaracterization?

So you didn't say that you wanted proof that Winter's system would work prior to adopting it?

You didn't say that poor talent on the roster exposed his weakness as a Coach and that better talent would cover up his shortcomings?

You didn't say... You know what, nevermind. It is crystal clear what your position is no matter what denial or diversion you want to lob next.

If you want to take down anything positive that this club does or members of this supporters group believes is your right I guess. I'm simply tired of reading it. I get it. Everything is painted with the same brush in your world and if you get your way one day, the good news is that we can then apparently turn everything around overnight.

Which given your position on overnight turnarounds, makes your position on hating Winter but not firing him for 11 more games even more curious.

ManUtd4ever
07-26-2011, 10:42 PM
^^I think in some cases you are correct about players cd the badge, but not in all. I hear people booing and mocking our players while cheering for DeRo at almost every match.

I do agree that winning will change this though - but it ha to start happening while there are still enough people in the stadium to take note.

Agreed. The window of opportunity is the balance of this season and the CCL, in order to build momentum towards next season. Otherwise, STH renewals will definitely suffer.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 10:48 PM
Mischaracterization?

So you didn't say that you wanted proof that Winter's system would work prior to adopting it?

You didn't say that poor talent on the roster exposed his weakness as a Coach and that better talent would cover up his shortcomings?

You didn't say... You know what, nevermind. It is crystal clear what your position is no matter what denial or diversion you want to lob next.

If you want to take down anything positive that this club does or members of this supporters group believes is your right I guess. I'm simply tired of reading it. I get it. Everything is painted with the same brush in your world and if you get your way one day, the good news is that we can then apparently turn everything around overnight.

Which given your position on overnight turnarounds, makes your position on hating Winter but not firing him for 11 more games even more curious.

Nope. Nothing in here is even remotely accurate. So if you want to stop responding, that would be ok by me because all you are doing is confusing the issue.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 10:49 PM
Because is annoying that's why.

It's not about Winter anymore it is about contingent of few making this board look like Big Soccer,in spite .that's why you have a big contingent of fans supporting the Winter,because of few this boards and SG suffers but who cares,it's not about TFC support anymore it's few vs rest.


Yes, a bunch of guys that don't even know each other are hell-bent on making this board look like Big Soccer. It's about the team's performance or our worries that the team is going down the wrong path. Nope, not at all. Once again, you are the real TFC supporter and everyone else is wrong or in it for some evil intentions. Understood.

Pookie
07-26-2011, 11:08 PM
Nope. Nothing in here is even remotely accurate. So if you want to stop responding, that would be ok by me because all you are doing is confusing the issue.

Oh?

So you never said



Having an undertalented team meant there was no "cover up" for Winter, exposing his weakeness as a coach.

Having a more talented squad helps cover up his shortcomings

Shall I go to the post where you wanted proof the 4-3-3 would work?

????

I am going to bed. Denial worked for Bill Clinton but it is a waste of my time to try to talk sports with someone who denys his agenda and own written words.

ag futbol
07-26-2011, 11:13 PM
It is perfectly reasonable to be discussing Winter's credentials, and whether he should go, in any of these threads. There is almost no manager in the world who could have the on field showing Winter's team has had, and not be under consideration to be removed. You think MLSE aren't seriously worried about what is going on here? They'll never admit it, but I guarantee you, they are shitting bricks over what is going on. They have given Winter way too long a leash. I bet he has committed $15 million or some such to Frings and Koevermans, who won't sell a single ticket, and they'll just be a year older next year, when Winter flies in 10 more players next year because all the guys he brought in this year sucked. Don't worry, it's part of the plan, there'll be 25 people here leaping to explain the nuances of it all. The casuals, who make up the vast majority of the SSH, will not care about the "plan". They just see the suckage, and the absurd rate of turnover. Thousands of them aren't coming back next year, I'll wager abyone on this. Most fans don't cheer for the laundry, they cheer for players.
.
Yep, this scenario crossed my mind more than a few times.

Renewals are going to be a huge problem that somebody will have to account for. How is it going to be explained? There are so many potential consequences here.

Roogsy
07-26-2011, 11:49 PM
Oh?

So you never said



Shall I go to the post where you wanted proof the 4-3-3 would work?

????

I am going to bed. Denial worked for Bill Clinton but it is a waste of my time to try to talk sports with someone who denys his agenda and own written words.

Nice try. But the quote you are using does not fit the slant that you attribute to my words.

My position has not changed since I posted that reply. I still believe that a poor coach is flattered by the results of a a more talented squad but it doesn't make him a good coach. It hasn't changed and I haven't denied it. The twist you gave it is what I objected to.

My agenda is clear and I have not avoided it or been vague about it. I have been as direct as is possible but you keep trying to twist it into something it is not and I will keep point that out.

Goodnight.

brad
07-27-2011, 07:44 AM
Yep, this scenario crossed my mind more than a few times.

Renewals are going to be a huge problem that somebody will have to account for. How is it going to be explained? There are so many potential consequences here.


I really wonder what TFC are going to do around renewal time. Lots of talk about rebuilding and the future I'm sure, but virtually none of the STH that I know outside of supporters groups believe anything from MLSE anymore. Most of these folks know you can get two for one tickets from scalpers most games outside the stadium which destroys the cost part of being a STH.

I think basically we need a strong run in the end of the season with some convincing wins and the collapses more or less eliminated. I don't think a CCL run is going to help renewals as too many folks (outside of the supporters groups) just don't care about it.

The only other thing I could see boosting renewals would be the announcement of signing a big name DP - someone the regular supporter would get excited about.

mastermixer
07-27-2011, 08:08 AM
I really wonder what TFC are going to do around renewal time. Lots of talk about rebuilding and the future I'm sure, but virtually none of the STH that I know outside of supporters groups believe anything from MLSE anymore. Most of these folks know you can get two for one tickets from scalpers most games outside the stadium which destroys the cost part of being a STH.

I think basically we need a strong run in the end of the season with some convincing wins and the collapses more or less eliminated. I don't think a CCL run is going to help renewals as too many folks (outside of the supporters groups) just don't care about it.

The only other thing I could see boosting renewals would be the announcement of signing a big name DP - someone the regular supporter would get excited about.

The funny thing is, they really didnt have to resort to big name DP's to get people in the seats.
All they had to do was keep people interested by putting a decent team together and they didnt succeed. I heard they are paying Frings and Koevermans big dollars to play here so in fact they are now paying for their incapacity to do that. No one on TFC is getting executive of the year any time soon that's for sure.

Pookie
07-27-2011, 08:13 AM
^ we need honesty and this smoke and mirror show about results influencing demand needs to end. The simple connection is that the price we pay is too high relative to the value of owning season tickets.

We pay extra for CCL games where other markets get them free in their package. We would pay extra (with a price hike) if we ever make the playoffs. And we pay the highest prices in the league at a number of price points.

There are more town halls coming. How powerful would it be if Anselmi introduced a new pricing model and admits that their current model is out of whack and introduced a package with true value?

That would go more towards getting me to renew than any signing or promise of future results. Because if the connection between pricing and results is allowed to go unchallenged, IF we ever have a good team, our thank you as STHs will be another price increase.

Beach_Red
07-27-2011, 08:19 AM
^ Maybe in the long-term you're right, Pookie, but right now the success-starved Toronto fans would be willing to pay big bucks for a Championship team.

If TFC finishes a season strong and looks good to advance in the playoffs, that would go a long way to selling tickets.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-27-2011, 08:25 AM
did people not get their panties in a twist because the CCL tickets were included in the season tickets last year?

Pookie
07-27-2011, 08:33 AM
^ perhaps but it was relayed to me that the data shows that the majority of the fan base buys tickets on credit.

Disposable income can only go so far and the Maple Leaf model of turning a blind eye to the scalper market (or profiting through Stubhub) in order to allow season ticket holders to recover their outrageous fees just doesn't apply here.

So, if we accept there is a price ceiling in this market which is populated by a relatively large percentage of folks without the means to acquire tickets via their savings, we have a really unstable financial base from which to draw.

I know they were going after the corporate market. I still remember that conversation intimately. To me it is time to adjust that strategy and cater to the grass roots. TFC was profitable at 2007 prices. Take that price model, calculate the cost of including free bonus games, sprinkle in a few bucks on top of the 2007 price, consider going after high volumes at lower prices, invest in the marketing, work with supporters and make this the best damn Club in the league.

menefreghista
07-27-2011, 08:34 AM
did people not get their panties in a twist because the CCL tickets were included in the season tickets last year?

I think people wouldn't have cared so much if the price increase and MLS Cup tickets weren't included.

The package price increase they originally tried to implement was a 25% increase over the previous season.

Pookie
07-27-2011, 08:36 AM
did people not get their panties in a twist because the CCL tickets were included in the season tickets last year?

That's because the price model is that you take:

cost per MLS game PLUS cost per CCL game = season ticket price

Our high base price really inflates the total cost of that package.

In New York, they build the cost in and manage to give the games for "free"

As an example, a ticket in 106 at BMO costs about $1000 per year. That doesn't include CCL games or playoff games.

That same ticket in New York costs $530 per year and gets me ALL home playoff matches and a bonus event with no additional charges. As a STH in New York, I know that I will be able to see all the games that my team qualifies for and I don't feel gouged in the process.

menefreghista
07-27-2011, 08:45 AM
On the CCL tickets, there was also the issue of paying months in advance for something that may not even happen. And if it does, you may not even be able to sell them off, based on past history of demand for CCL games.

As for next year's season tickets, I think the prices they set for the Real Esteli match could be an indication of where they are heading.

For example in the south end a package would be 20 tickets (18 MLS regular season games + 2 NCC games) * $17 = $340. They will then sell this as a price decrease, as slight as it may be.

As for freebies, I don't think that's in their initial plans. They will pull those out if they get desperate again.

Pookie
07-27-2011, 08:45 AM
^ A supporters ticket in NY (new not renewal) = $320 and includes ALL home playoff games and bonus games

A supporters ticket in Toronto (new not renewal) = $433 plus a price of anywhere between $17 and $50 per game that we play in the CCL or playoffs.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-27-2011, 08:49 AM
I definitely agree they need to be either a) giving the CCL games away for free or b) at a reduced price to ALL seats (ie 15$ for anywhere in the stadium) as right now our team is doing terribly and noone goes to these games even tho they are some of the most important games a team can play

Pookie
07-27-2011, 08:50 AM
As for next year's season tickets, I think the prices they set for the Real Esteli match could be an indication of where they are heading.

For example in the south end a package would be 20 tickets (18 MLS regular season games + 2 NCC games) * $17 = $340. They will then sell this as a price decrease, as slight as it may be.


I would hope you are right though they did say that they were freezing prices for 2012. That would mean +$400 and no freebies without a change in direction.

Canary10
07-27-2011, 11:04 AM
Yes, a bunch of guys that don't even know each other are hell-bent on making this board look like Big Soccer. It's about the team's performance or our worries that the team is going down the wrong path. Nope, not at all. Once again, you are the real TFC supporter and everyone else is wrong or in it for some evil intentions. Understood.

Is it really about worries the team is going down the wrong path? You're opposed to playing attractive, offensive minded, flowing football, instilling that in youth at the age of 12, developing it over time, thinking long-term?

Ossington Mental Youth
07-27-2011, 11:19 AM
he just doesnt believe in the people that are putting together the infrastructure and system.

v00d00daddy
07-27-2011, 11:44 AM
he just doesnt believe in the people that are putting together the infrastructure and system.

Which is fair.

The reasons for not believing in the people is what causes the arguments.

Btw...it's not "the people"...it's winter. Those who are upset seem to ignore
de Klerk and mariner in this whole thing. Especially mariner.

I have my ideas why and they centre around "the treatment" of certain former
players.

Literally everything Winter does these days is wrong. Everything....that seems reasonable. Lol

Canary10
07-27-2011, 11:55 AM
he just doesnt believe in the people that are putting together the infrastructure and system.

The fact that this group of people has announced expansion of the acacdemy to under 15 and under 13, new facilities for players of all ages to train in (sorely lacking in Toronto), and an international scouting structure to identify players isn't good enough to show progress? To me these are all really exciting, long-term investments in football, not just for Toronto FC but really Canadian football as a whole.

I think the real issue is they want to see wins yesterday...

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 11:56 AM
Nope.

TO DEVILS
07-27-2011, 12:07 PM
The fact that this group of people has announced expansion of the acacdemy to under 15 and under 13, new facilities for players of all ages to train in (sorely lacking in Toronto), and an international scouting structure to identify players isn't good enough to show progress? To me these are all really exciting, long-term investments in football, not just for Toronto FC but really Canadian football as a whole.

I think the real issue is they want to see wins yesterday...

Nope.

Academy Development is total separate from what TFC senior team does or achieves.

Doing the right things at the academy level does not mean that you ignore the wrong things at the senior squad.

Is like building a great tennis facility and in the artic circle in hope to one day discover a talented player there.

Just because you build it, it doesn't mean they will come. Life isn't a Field of Dreams.

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 12:11 PM
Nope.

Academy Development is total separate from what TFC senior team does or achieves.

Doing the right things at the academy level does not mean that you ignore the wrong things at the senior squad.

Is like building a great tennis facility and in the artic circle in hope to one day discover a talented player there.

Just because you build it, it doesn't mean they will come. Life isn't a Field of Dreams.

Pedro gets it.

lobo
07-27-2011, 12:14 PM
the original topic of this thread was about the foundations of the TFC plan for future success ... this is a good, positive message

the cynics can torpedo it all they want for whatever personal agenda they serve, they can call it self-serving PR all they want (every business does this!) ... but it shows a vision that has been sadly lacking in our first 4 years

i for one am happy that the club has actually expended time and effort to identify their four pillars for success, and hope we can live up to the lofty vision and eventually drag roogsy and ensco (and all the pundits of doom-and-gloom) along for a wild ride full of glory and silverware that endures generations ... raise your eyebrows if you must, but it is possible, anything is possible until it is sabotaged by environment or design

frankly i don't see where all their excruciatingly jaded opinions have their roots, especially considering most of these guys have been pounding the table with the same rhetorical questions since the season started

measure it any way you want, but FFS measure it in due time

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 12:20 PM
Measure what? That's part of the problem. The vision gives you nothing to measure. Because of it's vagueness, any sort of success, as miniscule as it may be, is put forward as "evidence" and yet any failing, big or small, is dismissed as irrelevant. You're right, it should be measured! Now find me something in this plan that can be measured and I'll gladly reconsider my position.

Section 117
07-27-2011, 12:21 PM
I guess in all of this hate for the FO that with respect to the academy Winter and DeKlerk do have a vast knowledge in the youth set up at Ajax.

The tennis court in the arctic is refrence is complete bs as many a player have come out of the GTA, now with proper coaching it is not plausible that we can produce more players???

Pookie
07-27-2011, 12:35 PM
Measure what? That's part of the problem. The vision gives you nothing to measure. Because of it's vagueness, any sort of success, as miniscule as it may be, is put forward as "evidence" and yet any failing, big or small, is dismissed as irrelevant. You're right, it should be measured! Now find me something in this plan that can be measured and I'll gladly reconsider my position.

Pssst. It is a summary of the plan not the actual plan with goals by training session, player evals, etc.

I thought we established that.

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 12:38 PM
We didn't establish anything. That was your rationalization.

And since Lobo's plea is to "measure it in due time", I am pushing to find out what exactly we are "measuring". Do you know what we are measuring? If not, how do you know things are going "to plan"? Because they say so? Sounds to me like the kind of confidence we freely gave MoJo without any accountability. Maybe you're ok with that the 2nd time around, I am not. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/bush-olympics1.jpg

TO DEVILS
07-27-2011, 12:44 PM
The tennis court in the arctic is refrence is complete bs as many a player have come out of the GTA, now with proper coaching it is not plausible that we can produce more players???

Yes it is, but it is also plausible that they will leave to greener pastures instead of one day playing for TFC, because having a facility is not enough, there has to be a road map with goals and targets.

It is important to find talent....but more important is to keep it.

That is what i meant with my post.

Beach_Red
07-27-2011, 12:55 PM
I guess in all of this hate for the FO that with respect to the academy Winter and DeKlerk do have a vast knowledge in the youth set up at Ajax.




There's no doubt they have great knowledge of the youth set up at Ajax. And no doubt it's a great youth set up.

But Toronto and Ontario isn't Ajax. We're just asking the question if the Ajax set up can be implemented here without making any adjustments to it? Because they haven't mentioned anything about the culture or situation here.

Everyone wants this to work out but some of us have seen over the past twenty or thirty years other kinds of systems in other industries being transplanted here without success.

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 01:04 PM
I think the "This is not Ajax" angle is being overlooked far too easily.

In Holland, kids are crashing down the doors to get into the Ajax academy. Not so in Toronto. Our best athletes don't go into soccer. Our selection process is much more difficult because there is less "tradition" to fall back on.

You just can't pick up the Ajax model and drop it on Tdot and honestly believe it's going to fit perfectly.

And it's those differences between the two that could make up the gap between successful and mediocre.

Now, I love that we have an academy. I have no problems with it. So this is not a case of me criticizing the academy. I think it does a fine job.

My problem is with the level of expectation WE have with the Academy. Guess what? We're not getting a Frings out of it so let's adjust our expectations. The best likely scenario is that we get 1 or 2 roleplayer starters ever year or two. And to me, that should not compose a significant part of a plan that should have been put in place to fix whatever is wrong with TFC...unless of course people think nothing needed fixing?

brad
07-27-2011, 01:19 PM
What is it specifically - not hand wavy about the Ajax mold do you not think will work because of the differences between here and Holland?

Personally - I'm all for it. We may not have our best athletes knocking down our door, but what we do have is a solid footballing education available to skilled players - one that focuses on technical and tactical fundementals that players over here rarely have access to. Applied to a lower talent pool than Holland, we won't be churning out the next world superstars but I think it's reasonable to expect that the players we tuen out will be better than if they were trained in the typical north American mold.

Now, the big question for me is whether or not the staff we have in place can implement this over the long term to see dividends. Only time will tell - there is no way to measure if it will succeed now - that's impossible in sports.

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 01:27 PM
It's the same as assuming that the Brazilian mold can be readily adopted here. It's a cultural thing. It's a media thing. It's a lifestyle thing. There are so many little things that make up the differences between here and Amsterdam.

So while I have no problems bringing Dutch coaches into the Academy, I think expectations should be adjusted. Not just in terms of the quality being developed but also the quantity.

In order for TFC to become "Ajax" of North America, it will take generations and a complete shift in the cultural preferences of Toronto. I am not holding my breath.

And this is not a knock on Winter or De Klerk or MLSE. This is just the reality we are in.

brad
07-27-2011, 01:53 PM
I'm not sure that anyone is expecting TFC to become the Ajax of North America (I'm certainly not). What I am expecting is that development of players in a mold that focuses on technical ability, aestheticism and personality can produce a better play than what is currently produced in North America today.

I'm not expecting we are going to turn out the next Sneijder or Bergkamp. I do think that producing players better than that standard MLS warm bodies like Peterson is well within reach.

By the way - you side stepped my question like a politician :-) What is it specifically about the Ajax system do you think will not work in North America?

Canary10
07-27-2011, 01:59 PM
It's the same as assuming that the Brazilian mold can be readily adopted here. It's a cultural thing. It's a media thing. It's a lifestyle thing. There are so many little things that make up the differences between here and Amsterdam.

So while I have no problems bringing Dutch coaches into the Academy, I think expectations should be adjusted. Not just in terms of the quality being developed but also the quantity.

In order for TFC to become "Ajax" of North America, it will take generations and a complete shift in the cultural preferences of Toronto. I am not holding my breath.

And this is not a knock on Winter or De Klerk or MLSE. This is just the reality we are in.

I don't know any reason why we can't import Dutch style play and tactics if we get to people at age 10 or 12. They'll learn anything at that age with the right. I remember getting a Welsh coach when I was about 10 or 11 who taught ball control, movment, fluid passing, etc. The team I played for played that kind of game very well. No reason why it can't be done. We just need coaches who understand how to teach it.

brad
07-27-2011, 02:04 PM
Here is an excellent document on the Ajax development mold.

http://www.cbcdutchtouch.com/images/TheAjaxYouthDevelopmentScheme.pdf

When I read this - I see a development mold that focuses on a whole lot of things that North American players are lacking, and see nothing at all that implies something that can't be done in North America

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 02:05 PM
Nobody said anything about the kids not being able to learn the style or tactics. But we're talking about the ability to produce stand out impact players at a higher rate and that is a much more difficult task.

brad
07-27-2011, 02:50 PM
Nobody said anything about the kids not being able to learn the style or tactics. But we're talking about the ability to produce stand out impact players at a higher rate and that is a much more difficult task.

I get it now - we are looking at this from two different sides.

I actually don't expect the Academy to turn out stand out impact players with any frequency. Once an while, yes, but not in volume or frequency.

Where I think the Academy will have a very big impact is bringing up the quality on the lower end. Replacing the fodder that we have to play now with decent players that have the fundamentals down (IE a center backs comfortable passing the ball out of the back) will make us a way better team. I've long held the belief that being a successful MLS team is a much, if not more about getting the best players in at the lower end of the talent spectrum as it is about the stars.

Most impact players will still come from other places I suspect.

brandrews
07-27-2011, 03:12 PM
Measure what? That's part of the problem. The vision gives you nothing to measure. Because of it's vagueness, any sort of success, as miniscule as it may be, is put forward as "evidence" and yet any failing, big or small, is dismissed as irrelevant. You're right, it should be measured! Now find me something in this plan that can be measured and I'll gladly reconsider my position.

same old argument; you do the exact same thing that you accuse others of doing when you selectively use only information that jives with your opinion.

i provided multiple measurable items earlier in the thread, which you ignored.

when do they dismiss things as being irrelevant?

lobo
07-27-2011, 03:17 PM
Measure what? That's part of the problem. The vision gives you nothing to measure. Because of it's vagueness, any sort of success, as miniscule as it may be, is put forward as "evidence" and yet any failing, big or small, is dismissed as irrelevant. You're right, it should be measured! Now find me something in this plan that can be measured and I'll gladly reconsider my position.

wow ... :picard: ... i suspect nothing is going to please you man

Canary10
07-27-2011, 03:32 PM
How 'bout if we win tonight, that's evidence everything is working.

ManUtd4ever
07-27-2011, 03:38 PM
I get it now - we are looking at this from two different sides.

I actually don't expect the Academy to turn out stand out impact players with any frequency. Once an while, yes, but not in volume or frequency.

Where I think the Academy will have a very big impact is bringing up the quality on the lower end. Replacing the fodder that we have to play now with decent players that have the fundamentals down (IE a center backs comfortable passing the ball out of the back) will make us a way better team. I've long held the belief that being a successful MLS team is a much, if not more about getting the best players in at the lower end of the talent spectrum as it is about the stars.

Most impact players will still come from other places I suspect.

Well said. In fact, I think we have already seen glimpses with the first crop of academy players that have graduated to the first team, despite the fact that they joined TFC Academy at very late stages in their development.

I have read posts in the past calling out for the likes of Cordon, Henry, Morgan, and Stinson to be given more playing time ahead of some of the stiffs on the low end of the roster, and justifiably so.

Hopefully, future generations of TFC Academy graduates will be even more complete, technically sound players based on the number of years invested in their development.

brad
07-27-2011, 03:46 PM
Well said. In fact, I think we have already seen glimpses with the first crop of academy players that have graduated to the first team, despite the fact that they joined TFC Academy at very late stages in their development.

I have read posts in the past calling out for the likes of Cordon, Henry, Morgan, and Stinson to be given more playing time ahead of some of the stiffs on the low end of the roster, and justifiably so.

Hopefully, future generations of TFC Academy graduates will be even more complete, technically sound players based on the number of years invested in their development.

The big thing is getting them in their formative years and teaching the fundamentals then. This is the 8-12 year age. Many folks smarter and way more knowledgeable than me about player development cite that as the critical period for teaching fundamental technical skills, and if you miss that period you won't truly catch up. That implies that even guys like Cordon, Lindsay and Henry really won't be any indication of what the Academy can do. We will see players polished by the Academy in the next few years, but not really the full product.

That is why I think it is going to be 10-15 years (for the 8 year old's to get into the club and go through a full cycle of youth development) before we can truly judge the impact of the youth academy.

Section 117
07-27-2011, 04:48 PM
Roogsy why can't the academy produce standout players? If TFC dedicates time and money and the kids take it seriously the GTA can definitely produce quality players. I can say from experience we have a lot of talent in this region the problem is proper developement and being able to spot the talent.

Will it happen over night no, but will we see results over time l believe that we will. This argument about the academy is a long term investment not a short term. So we all on this board must not lump the talk of the academy with if we think if Winter is doing a good job with the first team

lobo
07-28-2011, 11:02 AM
How 'bout if we win tonight, that's evidence everything is working.

there ya go, evidence the plan is working, we won ... now, if we lose next game that will be evidence the plan is utter shite and the coaching staff is in way over their heads

ok

Canary10
07-28-2011, 11:12 AM
there ya go, evidence the plan is working, we won ... now, if we lose next game that will be evidence the plan is utter shite and the coaching staff is in way over their heads

ok

Ha, so true. Seriously though, TFC need to show improvement with this group of players for me to feel like Winter's on the right track. I think we have 11 games left? I'd like to see us doubling our current point total. That would be 18 points in 11 games.