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denime
07-25-2011, 05:33 AM
Mornin'



Time to abandon the 4-3-3 (http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/24/time-to-abandon-the-4-3-3)



SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshine-girl)

Fort York Redcoat
07-25-2011, 05:46 AM
Hurry up Wednesday.

London
07-25-2011, 05:47 AM
bring in the christmas tree formation

Ossington Mental Youth
07-25-2011, 05:56 AM
defeats the purpose of training all the academy kids to play that system in and out

MarkoftheDrink
07-25-2011, 07:05 AM
Lol @ people who think the 4-3-3 is going anywhere before the end of Winter's contract. Not happening. Get used to it.

ensco
07-25-2011, 07:10 AM
He's not actually playing the 4-3-3. He's playing the same 4-2-3-1 that 87% of Europe is using.

mastermixer
07-25-2011, 07:16 AM
defeats the purpose of training all the academy kids to play that system in and out

That's the thing. Winter is here for three years (if not less). Then what? Another dutch coach?

Oldtimer
07-25-2011, 07:27 AM
That's the thing. Winter is here for three years (if not less). Then what? Another dutch coach?

Yep. Or someone else who knows that style. Consistent style is what the Klinsmann plan is all about.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-25-2011, 07:30 AM
That's the thing. Winter is here for three years (if not less). Then what? Another dutch coach?

Theyll find another coach (not necessarily dutch) that plays a similar style like Barca has

denime
07-25-2011, 07:34 AM
That's the thing. Winter is here for three years (if not less). Then what? Another dutch coach?

NO,they will look for the coach who has similar style of play,and kids in academy are playing and practicing 4-3-3 and the first team plays whatever the coach wants it,new coach will not have any authority how TFCA is working,that's the way most academies are being run.
This is the only way to have continuity,otherwise every time new coach comes academy has to change too, kids will never learn anything,no way.

ryan
07-25-2011, 07:49 AM
From that 4-3-3 article...


Although Richard Eckersley continues to play out of his more comfortable right back spot, the Englishman was out of position when Omar Bravo exploited the space he vacated for Sporting’s third goal.

How is it that Bravo sprinted 40 metres unmarked between Andy Iro and Eckersley before burying his team’s fourth?

All it takes is watching one replay Mr Writer guy. Ecks was marking his man, Iro's man (Bravo) took off towards the goal while he continued to jog, Eck's left his man to try and catch this guy. That would be why he turned around livid cussing in Iro's direction.

Eck's supposed to mark two guys at once?

nickio
07-25-2011, 08:19 AM
I've been Toronto Sun free for many months now and loving it. Voting with my clicks (or lack thereof) against this garbage of a newspaper.

ryan is right, It's absolutely not Eck's fault as it wasn't his man to cover in the first place.

And this 4-3-3 bashing ... we'l see we'll see

Pookie
07-25-2011, 08:28 AM
This reminds me a lot about golf.

Walk with me.

People who want to get better at golf, often drop a few bucks on some lessons.

But true swing changes take time and unfortunately, as you are making these changes, your game suffers.

A player that used to shoot in the 70's is now firing rounds in the high 80s or 90s.

Many give up. Go back to the old swing in an effort to get their scores down immediately.

It looks like progress as their scores might dip below 80 again. But at the end, they are right back to where they started. Unable to break 70 or whatever target/goal that sent them to lessons in the first place.

The player that has a breakthrough is the player that sticks with the swing change and practices it rigorously. S/he focuses on the long term goal and has to stay unattached to the short term results.

At the end of the day, it's ok to stay with what works. It gets you some decent results. You will never dominate the game, win trophies or any of that but you'll play well at times, poorer at others.

But if you want to be truly great, you've got to step out of your comfort zone and make changes. Changes will hurt over the short term. The long term payoff is much greater than what you can ever achieve with the status quo.

CoachGT
07-25-2011, 08:30 AM
From that 4-3-3 article...



All it takes is watching one replay Mr Writer guy. Ecks was marking his man, Iro's man (Bravo) took off towards the goal while he continued to jog, Eck's left his man to try and catch this guy. That would be why he turned around livid cussing in Iro's direction.

Eck's supposed to mark two guys at once?

He shouldn't have had to be marking. Santos is moving the ball upfield and, rather than move the ball after beating the first man, he tries to be Superman and work through two other players. He had an option to his right but didn't use it and then got caught.

It should have been a loose marking at best, and Iro started moving upfield too soon.

I wondered who was going to blow a gasket first, Ecks or Frei. And Winter wasn't far behind with the substitution.

West220Side
07-25-2011, 08:34 AM
Time to abandon the 4-3-3 (http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/24/time-to-abandon-the-4-3-3)




LMAO.


Andy Iro of TFC heads the ball away from a couple of Sporting KC defenders on Saturday night. (Getty Images)Andy Iro is #3. Thats Doneil Henry.

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1311470110967_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80&size=650x

Beach_Red
07-25-2011, 08:50 AM
This reminds me a lot about golf.

Walk with me.



I like this. But here's where it's really like golf - everyone who plays golf believes that if they could just play more often they'd be better.

Partly I think it's because almost everyone who plays golf sometimes has a few really good shots; a great drive, a fantastic approach, some really good putts. And every golfer believes if they could just get out and play every day then they'd be more consistent, they'd have entire rounds of those good shots.

But the truth is, almost all of us could play every day and practise with the top golf coaches in the world and do everything they say and we'd just never get past the hump from okay golfer to consistently really good golfer.

So yeah, sometimes the one step back two steps forward can really work but to get to the top of a sport - like an art - is far more than technical. That technical ability can only take you so far, especially when all your opposition has access to it as well.

This is why bad teams go for defensive play and grinding out wins as the first step to getting better ;).

Oldtimer
07-25-2011, 08:53 AM
http://content6.flixster.com/movie/11/13/83/11138384_pro.jpg

Roogsy
07-25-2011, 09:12 AM
LMAO.

Andy Iro is #3. Thats Doneil Henry.

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1311470110967_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80&size=650x


:lol:

Did Nigel Reed write that?

Roogsy
07-25-2011, 09:15 AM
Ok, the 4-3-3 is here to stay. Fine.

Any reason why it can't be implemented slowly as opposed to making the player go through a crash course?


And the really big answer, what proof is there that the 4-3-3 will even be effective in MLS? Why this dedication to the 4-3-3 unless there is proof that THIS is they key to unlocking marvelous glories in MLS that no other team has figured out yet?

Pookie
07-25-2011, 09:39 AM
How do you prove something will be successful in the future?

spark
07-25-2011, 09:49 AM
Thought people might be interested in this. Interview with Heiko Oldoerp of the German Press who was covering Frings first game with TFC. Some good insight.

INSIDE THE MLS: HEIKO OLDOERP (http://www.rednationonline.ca/Podcasts.aspx#heiko)

ryan
07-25-2011, 09:52 AM
He shouldn't have had to be marking. Santos is moving the ball upfield and, rather than move the ball after beating the first man, he tries to be Superman and work through two other players. He had an option to his right but didn't use it and then got caught.

It should have been a loose marking at best, and Iro started moving upfield too soon.

I wondered who was going to blow a gasket first, Ecks or Frei. And Winter wasn't far behind with the substitution.

Well that's a whole other part to it, yeah. But Iro could have kept with Bravo, he just chose not to.


LMAO.

Andy Iro is #3. Thats Doneil Henry.

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1311470110967_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80&size=650x

Also, why would our defender be heading upfield away from SKC's defenders? :facepalm:

ag futbol
07-25-2011, 09:58 AM
You know, I have no problem with the 4-3-3 whatsoever. In fact, even when Winter leaves someday (whether that be next year or ten down the road) I hope TFC sticks to what they started here.

The issue is the way we try to play the formation. Not the formation itself.

Darlofletch
07-25-2011, 10:08 AM
Tactical analysis of the tfc v skc game (http://www.wakingthered.com/2011/7/25/2291738/sporting-kansas-city-thunpms-new-look-toronto-fc-4-2)

from the folks at keeping a clean sheet (http://keeping-a-cleansheet.blogspot.com/)



it seems that it is not their strategy (variations of the 4-3-3) that is failing them, but the players who are trying to implement it.

Roogsy
07-25-2011, 10:13 AM
How do you prove something will be successful in the future?

My question clearly asks what proof is there that it can be effective. That in itself is a request for past evidence, not future. We only have the past to give us guidance on the future.

If not, then any evidence whatsoever that this is the ideal route to go. We've been asked to place our faith in this. Based on what exactly?

Isn't it prudent to ask these questions? Or is this another case of shut up and just cheer?

Roogsy
07-25-2011, 10:16 AM
Tactical analysis of the tfc v skc game (http://www.wakingthered.com/2011/7/25/2291738/sporting-kansas-city-thunpms-new-look-toronto-fc-4-2)

from the folks at keeping a clean sheet (http://keeping-a-cleansheet.blogspot.com/)


You have Soolsma and Santos playing in your XI but they weren't on the pitch at the same time were they? And Santos was playing the OW not on the front 3. Hence the defensive miscues.

Canary10
07-25-2011, 10:21 AM
KC's goals were all crap. Santos missed a clearance on the first - instead of playing the post like he was supposed to, he crept up and didn't have enough time to respond to clear it. Poor mistake. The second Zavarise's marking was awful. And on we go...It's really frustrating to see 25 minutes of solid play done in in 8 minutes with really bad defensive mistakes.

That said, I think at the very least we should alter the 4-3-3 for road games. We're getting eaten up at the back, and way too often opposing midfields have the space to run at our defense, which isn't it good in the best of times, but it's pretty hard for any D to respond when the oppostion has so much space. Maybe even put in a 4-5-1 with the outside midfielders place defense first. That's not too far off the the 4-3-3 they play now. It's more of a tactical difference.

But at the end of the day we can't have guys like Santos and Zavarise making huge mistakes leading to goals. Santos should not go in again.

Empirical
07-25-2011, 10:22 AM
Toronto are favorites for Wednesday's game!

Couchy81
07-25-2011, 10:22 AM
Tactical analysis of the tfc v skc game (http://www.wakingthered.com/2011/7/25/2291738/sporting-kansas-city-thunpms-new-look-toronto-fc-4-2)

from the folks at keeping a clean sheet (http://keeping-a-cleansheet.blogspot.com/)

Oh what's that? It's not Winter's tactics? But I keep hearing that over and over again...

Our defense from game 1 until now has been horrible, with a couple bright spots, but there are holes all over the place. Once we can plug those holes, we will see some wins under this Dutch regime. Harden, Borman, and our CB injuries have been our bane this season.

s2cazz
07-25-2011, 10:26 AM
How about we give Winter and his system a chance before we start calling for it to end. If this can make any sense at all, We look better technically than we EVER have IMO, even though the results aren't there to prove it.

Hell watching the SKC game Saturday I kept thinking "Holy shit, it's nice to see player actually at the end of the crosses!"

I'm willing to give him 3 years. I see the improvement in the squad already. I'm still on the fence about Koevermans, but I think Frings, by attitude and work ethic alone, will do more good for this team than anyone else has in the short and pathetic history of my beloved club.

ryan
07-25-2011, 10:27 AM
My question clearly asks what proof is there that it can be effective. That in itself is a request for past evidence, not future. We only have the past to give us guidance on the future.

If not, then any evidence whatsoever that this is the ideal route to go. We've been asked to place our faith in this. Based on what exactly?

Isn't it prudent to ask these questions? Or is this another case of shut up and just cheer?

Proof doesn't have to exist for something to be successful in the future.

So while you choose to say it's just another "shut up and cheer thing" because you lack evidence to prove it, isn't on point at all. But no surprise you chose to state it like that...

You can't tell me in the history of football tactics, that a new formation never seen before wasn't ever implemented and then became effective despite never existing and thus having evidence that it will work?

Someone could argue that looking at TFC's season says there's your evidence for MLS, it doesn't work. Which I would say doesn't really seem fair, as considering the continued player turnover there's not been much of a consistent team of capable players to prove anything yet.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-25-2011, 10:27 AM
Tactical analysis of the tfc v skc game (http://www.wakingthered.com/2011/7/25/2291738/sporting-kansas-city-thunpms-new-look-toronto-fc-4-2)

from the folks at keeping a clean sheet (http://keeping-a-cleansheet.blogspot.com/)

a fair assesment

nickio
07-25-2011, 10:27 AM
If TFC pulls this off they'll be the pioneer and the shining star of MLS. Our team can be the first to really break through the defensive and griding game that is MLS soccer. We can be come the nightmare of every team that tries to play a passive counter anti football.

If you don't believe in it, for whatever reason- that's your choice. But since we are here and doing it now- I will support the team and hope for the best. It's up to the team to write history and any sort of selective Proof can't stop it.

They are not reinventing a bicycle, they are trying to implement what already works well in Europe, even if it takes augmentation and adjustment. That surely has to take time and can't be done in a season.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-25-2011, 10:31 AM
We look better technically than we EVER have IMO, even though the results aren't there to prove it. .

i also keep seeing this even when we have huge defensive lapses.
We even got back in the game and scored 2 more goals with the potential for more. ic ant ever say that we looked like that in the past.

nickio
07-25-2011, 10:35 AM
Some people forget the amount of chances our team creates per game. It's something TFC has never had.

Even with the team loosing now I find it way more entertaining to watch now than last year. I always feel like some of our players have potential to surprise and have great opportunities, whereas last year I was just hoping that one of the long direct passes would actually make it to one of the guys.

Now atleast we can string many passes together, with exception of a few loose cannons on the field which will be replaced before long. If you disagree, then you forgot what Preki passing system was like.

Pookie
07-25-2011, 10:41 AM
Roogsy, outside of the laws of physics, you can't "prove" an outcome will happen.

This proof you are looking for doesn't exist.

If you look at past experience, there are many examples of teams and athletes from a variety of sports that have broken free from the "norm" and adopted something different and have been successful. The Trap in hockey followed by Detroit's "Swedish Torpedo" followed by the introduction of the "Shotgun" in NA Football to "Fosbury Flop" in High Jump to the latest "Stack and Tilt" golf swing on the PGA Tour.

You also know that the "Total Football" system, and its variations, have proven successful in leagues around the world.

However, like investments, past success is not indicative of future performance. Just as adopting the same MLS "style" that the majority of teams in the MLS play now, is no guarantee of improved results.

Roogsy
07-25-2011, 10:42 AM
Proof doesn't have to exist for something to be successful in the future.

So while you choose to say it's just another "shut up and cheer thing" because you lack evidence to prove it, isn't on point at all. But no surprise you chose to state it like that...

You can't tell me in the history of football tactics, that a new formation never seen before wasn't ever implemented and then became effective despite never existing and thus having evidence that it will work?

Someone could argue that looking at TFC's season says there's your evidence for MLS, it doesn't work. Which I would say doesn't really seem fair, as considering the continued player turnover there's not been much of a consistent team of capable players to prove anything yet.

I don't disagree. Everything has it's genesis somewhere, including new football tactics.

But we are being asked to put faith in this new system. First of all, what kind of management decides to make us the "test bunnies" to this system in MLS after spending 4 years of futility? What happens if it doesn't work? Is that not a possibility? And as I have repeatedly stated before, should we not at least be more skeptical about it than we seem to be? Instead of simply assuming this will undoubtedly work as many seem to have accepted?

Roogsy
07-25-2011, 10:44 AM
Now atleast we can string many passes together, with exception of a few loose cannons on the field which will be replaced before long. If you disagree, then you forgot what Preki passing system was like.

Ah...if only I could I would dig up quotes from the "Preki months" where people were saying things exactly like what you just said about "now the team is stringing passes together like never before"...but believe me, the conversations I am hearing now are almost identical to the ones I was hearing during the Preki tenure.

Couchy81
07-25-2011, 10:46 AM
I don't disagree. Everything has it's genesis somewhere, including new football tactics.

But we are being asked to put faith in this new system. First of all, what kind of management decides to make us the "test bunnies" to this system in MLS after spending 4 years of futility? What happens if it doesn't work? Is that not a possibility? And as I have repeatedly stated before, should we not at least be more skeptical about it than we seem to be? Instead of simply assuming this will undoubtedly work as many seem to have accepted?

If it works we will be Gods, if it doesn't work we just need to do what so many others keep stating, all we need to do to turn a club around is acquire an MLS coach, MLS players and one off season :rolleyes:

s2cazz
07-25-2011, 10:56 AM
Ah...if only I could I would dig up quotes from the "Preki months" where people were saying things exactly like what you just said about "now the team is stringing passes together like never before"...but believe me, the conversations I am hearing now are almost identical to the ones I was hearing during the Preki tenure.

I did not like preki from the beginning. I had high hopes for him much like Winter but those hopes faded rather quickly.

Beach_Red
07-25-2011, 10:57 AM
Ah...if only I could I would dig up quotes from the "Preki months" where people were saying things exactly like what you just said about "now the team is stringing passes together like never before"...but believe me, the conversations I am hearing now are almost identical to the ones I was hearing during the Preki tenure.


It also seems like the last couple of games have featured more long ball. Johnson's goal came off a long ball.

ryan
07-25-2011, 11:00 AM
I don't disagree. Everything has it's genesis somewhere, including new football tactics.

But we are being asked to put faith in this new system. First of all, what kind of management decides to make us the "test bunnies" to this system in MLS after spending 4 years of futility? What happens if it doesn't work? Is that not a possibility? And as I have repeatedly stated before, should we not at least be more skeptical about it than we seem to be? Instead of simply assuming this will undoubtedly work as many seem to have accepted?

MLSE is that very management, they decided to roll the dice despite already being down 4 seasons.

But that's on the management, not on the formation, the coach or new players on the roster. Holding that management decision over the heads of any of those, isn't fair.

If it doesn't work? Then blame MLSE however you feel suited. It's not as if what Winter is trying to do simply doesn't work, it certainly works well in other parts of the world and at higher levels than MLS. If it doesn't work in MLS, then it doesn't. It's not been done like before (has it?), or at least not done enough to be proven it's not something that can work in MLS right now, so trying to find out if it will is the chance MLSE is taking.

The way I'm seeing this experiment is this. If it works and works well, we could be the class of this league leading the way to more talented play MLS wide. If it fails we're not any lower than we were before, which is about as low as you can go anyways. So what do we have to lose?

Of course they could have went the "safe" route playing more like every other MLS side and just being "another MLS club", but to what end? To finish 7th in the table and make the playoffs? So fucking what? Why do MLS fans watch their clubs and little else of the league? Cause the way MLS teams play is FUCKING BORING!

Now, not that TFC hasn't been boring this year, but I believe that has to do with the changes/learning process the team is going through. Which I feel I need to remind is quite a large change in how they play the game and should come as no surprise that it's going to take at least a season to get things working on a basic level....but most people (because of past failings unrelated to this new plan) are too impatient for.

I'm not trying to, or never have at least, tried to say this WILL work. I simply understand what this could be one of the key changes to drive MLS into a greater league as Garber seems to think we're going to be. MLS being MLS will never be a great league with how the teams play it right now, no doubt about that. Fans of other leagues will continue to laugh at how boring this stuff is and I don't blame them.

Why I'm behind them trying? Because much to the dismay of those that mock Winter when he says it, I believe it is more attractive to watch us now than it was before, to watch other MLS clubs as well.

Although right now, it only happens in small bursts. Capture that for 90 week in and week out and TFC will be the most enjoyable football club to watch in MLS. I'm not saying we will get there, but it's where we are trying to go and I can support that and understand the lengths it will take to see if we can get there, which is longer than what we've gone through so far.

nickio
07-25-2011, 11:09 AM
Although right now, it only happens in small bursts. Capture that for 90 week in and week out and TFC will be the most enjoyable football club to watch in MLS. I'm not saying we will get there, but it's where we are trying to go and I can support that and understand the lengths it will take to see if we can get there, which is longer than what we've gone through so far.

I'm all for aiming high and shooting for the stars. Sometimes it's not clear how to get there but simply working in the right direction is the key. I don't believe in mediocre goals, such as just aiming to make the playoffs in the season and hope for the best. It's doesn't sound right, and its not the right approach to doing anything.

Beach_Red
07-25-2011, 11:11 AM
Roogsy, outside of the laws of physics, you can't "prove" an outcome will happen.

This proof you are looking for doesn't exist.

If you look at past experience, there are many examples of teams and athletes from a variety of sports that have broken free from the "norm" and adopted something different and have been successful. The Trap in hockey followed by Detroit's "Swedish Torpedo" followed by the introduction of the "Shotgun" in NA Football to "Fosbury Flop" in High Jump to the latest "Stack and Tilt" golf swing on the PGA Tour.

You also know that the "Total Football" system, and its variations, have proven successful in leagues around the world.

However, like investments, past success is not indicative of future performance. Just as adopting the same MLS "style" that the majority of teams in the MLS play now, is no guarantee of improved results.


It seems like Roogsey is just looking for something like, "We looked at the other teams in MLS and we looked at the players available to us with the salary cap and domestic quota and we felt this system is the one that would get us the most wins."

nickio
07-25-2011, 11:23 AM
http://www.mls-rumors.net/18290/2011/07/report-toronto-fc-and-dc-united-interested-in-french-left-back-sylvain-monsoreau

Sylvain Monsoreau to TFC or DC United? Rumour

Darlofletch
07-25-2011, 11:24 AM
You have Soolsma and Santos playing in your XI but they weren't on the pitch at the same time were they? And Santos was playing the OW not on the front 3. Hence the defensive miscues.

It was someone else that wrote that piece. soolsma and santos both started, but the position he has santos lined up is a bit curious.

Fort York Redcoat
07-25-2011, 11:29 AM
Ah...if only I could I would dig up quotes from the "Preki months" where people were saying things exactly like what you just said about "now the team is stringing passes together like never before"...but believe me, the conversations I am hearing now are almost identical to the ones I was hearing during the Preki tenure.

Preki? Passing? I thought the common opinion was that Prekiball was basically hoof and run? You know, football simplified? "Football Lite"?

Pookie
07-25-2011, 11:29 AM
It seems like Roogsey is just looking for something like, "We looked at the other teams in MLS and we looked at the players available to us with the salary cap and domestic quota and we felt this system is the one that would get us the most wins."

Sure. Though the fact that you can't use past performance to predict future outcomes holds true for whatever system they adopt(ed).

I think the real crux of it is that they have said we have looked at players that are and will be available to us, our long term training methods, the other teams in the MLS, the relative success this system (and variations of it) have had world-wide and we think that over time, this is the one that would get us the most success.

The "over time" part is what is causing some to get all upset. Those that are ok with the "over time" part see positive changes starting to creep into our game (such as the offensive chances noted in this thread).

You can't make long term changes and be focused on short term results. And "proof" related to future performance is non existent.

Gazza
07-25-2011, 11:30 AM
Ah...if only I could I would dig up quotes from the "Preki months" where people were saying things exactly like what you just said about "now the team is stringing passes together like never before"...but believe me, the conversations I am hearing now are almost identical to the ones I was hearing during the Preki tenure.

I don't remember us stringing three passes together that whole season.

nickio
07-25-2011, 11:33 AM
One pattern I noticed in following not only Football, but Hockey and Baseball and so on is that the organizations with certain goal and an overall plan end up improving, vs the year to year grind that some organizations choose (for example ex Atlanta Thrashers- they had a new direction every year...)

nickio
07-25-2011, 11:34 AM
I don't remember us stringing three passes together that whole season.

Niether do I. I rememeber the common theme being kick it up-field and run, loose the ball easily, take it away just outside the 18 and try it again...

Beach_Red
07-25-2011, 11:36 AM
Sure. Though the fact that you can't use past performance to predict future outcomes holds true for whatever system they adopt(ed).

I think the real crux of it is that they have said we have looked at players that are and will be available to us, our long term training methods, the other teams in the MLS, the relative success this system (and variations of it) have had world-wide and we think that over time, this is the one that would get us the most success.

The "over time" part is what is causing some to get all upset. Those that are ok with the "over time" part see positive changes starting to creep into our game (such as the offensive chances noted in this thread).

You can't make long term changes and be focused on short term results. And "proof" related to future performance is non existent.


I don't know, I think the crux of it is they never said anything about other MLS teams or roster restrictions - they said they picked this style and will work over the long-term to implement it.

We all hope it works in this wonky league.

Whoop
07-25-2011, 11:38 AM
Question:

I understand wanting to play 4-3-3 and I understand implementing it with the academy players. But why implement it with the senior team when you don't have the personnel to do so?

Why not phase it in without sacrificing results? I know others have suggested it. You start the season playing with a formation to the strengths of your team and you adjust as you add personnel who can play it as the season goes along.

Gazza
07-25-2011, 11:40 AM
Niether do I. I rememeber the common theme being kick it up-field and run, loose the ball easily, take it away just outside the 18 and try it again...

We had the "when in doubt, kick it out" theme down to a tee under Preki.

Both teams were terrible. This year's version is just more entertaining.

This season was never going to be successful anyway. I'm just hopeful that we will have a sense of stability and progress at the start of next season.

Technorgasm
07-25-2011, 11:43 AM
that article has sparked soem of the best responses that this forum has seen all year.

Long may it continue. Some really good points being made.

moralis
07-25-2011, 11:45 AM
TFC and D.C. United interested in Saint Etienne left back Sylvain Monsoreau: Dynamo Zagreb is first in line to get him though, will have to wait until 3rd round Champions League qualifying for a response back, if they lose then we might have a chance. Let's hope Dynamo loses. If we get this guy, then Yourassousky is probably gone because we don't have any more international spots left.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvain_Monsoreau

http://www.lequipe.fr/Football/breves2011/20110725_103658_monsoreau-en-c1-avec-zagreb.html (French)

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.lequipe.fr/Football/breves2011/20110725_103658_monsoreau-en-c1-avec-zagreb.html&ei=55stToLyCIqdgQfV_PWKCw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMonsoreau%2Ben%2BC1%2Bavec%2BZagreb%2 B%253F%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DZmj%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Divns (English)

s2cazz
07-25-2011, 11:46 AM
Question:

I understand wanting to play 4-3-3 and I understand implementing it with the academy players. But why implement it with the senior team when you don't have the personnel to do so?

Why not phase it in without sacrificing results? I know others have suggested it. You start the season playing with a formation to the strengths of your team and you adjust as you add personnel who can play it as the season goes along.

Because we would only be sacrificing results if there were any before we started implementing the 4-3-3.

As you know, there weren't any results. Therefore, why not?

I'm definitely more entertained this season than last. And I see much much much more hope than last season.

s2cazz
07-25-2011, 11:49 AM
i also keep seeing this even when we have huge defensive lapses.
We even got back in the game and scored 2 more goals with the potential for more. ic ant ever say that we looked like that in the past.

Our defense is the worst it has ever been. But we have had a good defense and shitty everything else until the Preki+MoJo+Garcia=Shit equation came into play.

Now we have a much better everything else.

edit:

PLUS we have a PLAN, a real PLAN. Not just some douchebag saying we have a plan, but an actual plan on paper with evidence of it being implemented.

like my father always said to me growing up: "Plan your Work, Work your Plan, Your Plan will Work!" I hope to god that we don't deviate from the plan prematurely. Lets see this through. Things can ONLY get better when your at rock bottom.

Pookie
07-25-2011, 11:51 AM
Question:

I understand wanting to play 4-3-3 and I understand implementing it with the academy players. But why implement it with the senior team when you don't have the personnel to do so?

Why not phase it in without sacrificing results? I know others have suggested it. You start the season playing with a formation to the strengths of your team and you adjust as you add personnel who can play it as the season goes along.

I would think that the reason is that unless you plan a complete roster overhaul at the point you decide to adopt it on the senior team, you can't simply flip a switch.

At some point the players need to learn it and there will be pain during the transition period.

TotalFootball
07-25-2011, 11:52 AM
Question:

I understand wanting to play 4-3-3 and I understand implementing it with the academy players. But why implement it with the senior team when you don't have the personnel to do so?

Why not phase it in without sacrificing results? I know others have suggested it. You start the season playing with a formation to the strengths of your team and you adjust as you add personnel who can play it as the season goes along.

I agree. Until we have the players to play that system, we should wait. In that system the 3 mids are key. We have one piece now in Frings and we now need two good mids beside him. Maybe Dunfield will work because he runs and runs and never gives up wich is what you need in this system where 3 mids compete against 4 mids. JDG does not fit in that system as he is slow and gives up too easily. I think Yourass is underrated and can do the job for now but I would prefer him on D in order to make overlaps.

In other words we need another good mid to play with Frings and Dunfield (if that works out).

Pookie
07-25-2011, 11:55 AM
I don't know, I think the crux of it is they never said anything about other MLS teams or roster restrictions - they said they picked this style and will work over the long-term to implement it.

We all hope it works in this wonky league.

In fairness, the "system" suggestion most likely came from Klinsmann and they sought about bringing in a Manager(s) that could implement it.

It wasn't as if they hired Winter and then said, "ok, so what's your plan?" They had a clear direction in mind when they hired him.

I've got to think that a guy that builds his business based on the success of his clients took the league they play in as a basic consideration when laying the plan out.

ManUtd4ever
07-25-2011, 11:58 AM
If I'm not mistaken, don't RSL and Seattle play variations of the 4-3-3? If the formation is flexible in it's deployment, it can be successful in MLS with the right management and player personnel.

Canary10
07-25-2011, 11:58 AM
Why not play a 4-5-1 on the road? It's just a variant on 4-3-3 with the two wingers pulling back and playing midfield first. We keep getting killed on the road, can't keep doing the same thing.

Pookie
07-25-2011, 11:59 AM
I agree. Until we have the players to play that system, we should wait.

Ok, so when do you flip that switch? Mid-season transfer window? Is that the time to tell everyone, ok, now forget what I've told you, this is now the way?

Say you adopt the wait approach, what if you have to call up a player based on an injury? A player that has spent all his time learning a different system. Tell him, ok, all that stuff we do in the Academy, yeah, forget it, go out there in front of 20,000 people and do whatever you did to get here... just do it differently?

Change is painful. There is no getting around it.

Whoop
07-25-2011, 12:04 PM
I would think that the reason is that unless you plan a complete roster overhaul at the point you decide to adopt it on the senior team, you can't simply flip a switch.

At some point the players need to learn it and there will be pain during the transition period.

The coach's job is to ease the transition not make it worse. And isn't the "pain" supposed to come in preseason?


I agree. Until we have the players to play that system, we should wait. In that system the 3 mids are key. We have one piece now in Frings and we now need two good mids beside him. Maybe Dunfield will work because he runs and runs and never gives up wich is what you need in this system where 3 mids compete against 4 mids. JDG does not fit in that system as he is slow and gives up too easily. I think Yourass is underrated and can do the job for now but I would prefer him on D in order to make overlaps.

In other words we need another good mid to play with Frings and Dunfield (if that works out).

I agree.

And playing guys out of position certainly doesn't help.

Whoop
07-25-2011, 12:09 PM
Ok, so when do you flip that switch? Mid-season transfer window? Is that the time to tell everyone, ok, now forget what I've told you, this is now the way?

Say you adopt the wait approach, what if you have to call up a player based on an injury? A player that has spent all his time learning a different system. Tell him, ok, all that stuff we do in the Academy, yeah, forget it, go out there in front of 20,000 people and do whatever you did to get here... just do it differently?

Change is painful. There is no getting around it.

You can't "call up" an academy kid for league matches. You have to sign him. And the best time to sign them would be in the preseason.

So evaluate the player in the academy during the season and have him compete for a spot with a trialist or existing player in preseason and he performs well, you sign him, if not, you send him back to the academy for more seasoning or you realize he can't get it and is too old well then you let him go.

The regular season isn't the time for experiments unless you're absolutely forced to. Yes, there have been times when Winter has been forced to but at the same time, a lot of the "experimenting" has been concocted by Winter's own doing when it didn't need to be.

Like I've said, the remainder of the season will be interesting.

Though I hope it's not like the Leafs/Raptors/Jays runs at the end of the season. Once the pressure of the playoffs is gone, guys relax and play and end up building this false pretense of success that things are working only to find when they start the following season that it was all a mirage.

Beach_Red
07-25-2011, 12:11 PM
In fairness, the "system" suggestion most likely came from Klinsmann and they sought about bringing in a Manager(s) that could implement it.

It wasn't as if they hired Winter and then said, "ok, so what's your plan?" They had a clear direction in mind when they hired him.

I've got to think that a guy that builds his business based on the success of his clients took the league they play in as a basic consideration when laying the plan out.

How successful is that business? The website is rather lean, with only the LA Galaxy from a few years ago listed as the other MLS clients. But you're right, I'd hope so, too, and I'd expect there is a report sitting in a drawer in Anselmi's office with some detailed breakdowns of the league and reason why this particular system and long-term approach is the best.

Because it does seem a slightly odd, or perhaps "gutsy" decision to go with a system that doesn't seem to do that well with the kinds of players who make up the majority of MLS rosters.

Anyway, I think now that Winter has been here for a while, seen the league, seen the competition and the players available to him he has left the original plan. It's only a matter of how far he moves away from it.

TFC will win on Wednesday (3-1) and after that there are 11 MLS games left, 5 at home? They can win 3-4 of those games and tie maybe 4-5 and finish the season looking pretty good and no one will care what system they have or how the long-term prospects look.

Topboy
07-25-2011, 12:53 PM
Just watching the 3rd-4th place replay of the Copa America, I am convinced some of those Peruvian and Venezuealan players must fit within our cap, what an upgrade some of those guys would be too!

brad
07-25-2011, 12:55 PM
Ok, so when do you flip that switch? Mid-season transfer window? Is that the time to tell everyone, ok, now forget what I've told you, this is now the way?

Say you adopt the wait approach, what if you have to call up a player based on an injury? A player that has spent all his time learning a different system. Tell him, ok, all that stuff we do in the Academy, yeah, forget it, go out there in front of 20,000 people and do whatever you did to get here... just do it differently?

Change is painful. There is no getting around it.

Pre-season, assuming the pieces are in place.

brad
07-25-2011, 12:57 PM
Academy kids that know the system to the core are 10 years off in my opinion. A year or two with late development teenagers is not enough to turn them from what they are into players in the Dutch mold. As such, I don't see playing a simpler system with a slow transition over the next 2-3 years if needed being a barrier to long term progress.

jloome
07-25-2011, 02:24 PM
Roogsy, outside of the laws of physics, you can't "prove" an outcome will happen.

This proof you are looking for doesn't exist.

If you look at past experience, there are many examples of teams and athletes from a variety of sports that have broken free from the "norm" and adopted something different and have been successful. The Trap in hockey followed by Detroit's "Swedish Torpedo" followed by the introduction of the "Shotgun" in NA Football to "Fosbury Flop" in High Jump to the latest "Stack and Tilt" golf swing on the PGA Tour.

You also know that the "Total Football" system, and its variations, have proven successful in leagues around the world.

However, like investments, past success is not indicative of future performance. Just as adopting the same MLS "style" that the majority of teams in the MLS play now, is no guarantee of improved results.

Of course, if you want to get all metaphysical about it p-man, even the laws of physics can't prove an outcome exists outside the confines of individual perception. Descartes and all that.

Pookie
07-25-2011, 02:40 PM
^ I stand corrected J-Roc... That is assuming there is a correct and incorrect and not simply a state of being independent of truth. And since truth is subjective I submit that there is no right, no wrong, it simply just is in it's purest sense.

rocker
07-25-2011, 04:42 PM
And the really big answer, what proof is there that the 4-3-3 will even be effective in MLS? Why this dedication to the 4-3-3 unless there is proof that THIS is they key to unlocking marvelous glories in MLS that no other team has figured out yet?

Proof? OK, how about somebody on this board goes through and catalogs every MLS team's system, all the systems from every team in the history of the league back to 1996, and we'll have proof on whether 4-3-3 has been effective in MLS. LOL. That's a big question to ask of people, Roogsy. If anything, you should have proof that it doesn't work before asking others to prove that it does.

I bet if we canvassed supporters on the systems played by each of the other 17 teams right now, most people wouldn't know.

Whoop
07-25-2011, 05:37 PM
From Matt Gold.


Thought the TFC trades were finally over but looks like they're still comin..

MarkoftheDrink
07-25-2011, 05:40 PM
For all the posters suggesting we not play the 4-3-3 until we get players who we think can play that system: how are we supposed to evaluate the players we do have and the new players we think can play the 4-3-3 if we're playing a 4-4-2?

There's no way to switch from a conservative defense first 4-4-2 to a 4-3-3 in a season and not suck IMO. You just need to suck it up.

ag futbol
07-25-2011, 06:30 PM
There's no way to switch from a conservative defense first 4-4-2 to a 4-3-3 in a season and not suck IMO. You just need to suck it up.
This is an exaggeration IMO.

There is plenty of room for flexibility within the 4-3-3 formation, it does not mean you're doomed to the extent we have been so far this season.

Regardless of the personnel we have some correctable problems showing that need to be addressed. Spacing between the midfield and the defenders, Marking assignments and team defending ... all poor, all correctable.

I have no problem with the 4-3-3, but they need to be realistic about how expansive they are going to be with it if they are going to be successful. We can't just throw open the doors as we have without expecting to get smoked. If you want to play that way, you're going to have to possess a superior amount of talent to the opposition. That's never going to happen with all the restrictions in place in MLS.

Other teams in MLS already use the formation, but they implement it in a way that's practical. TFC needs to follow the lead here and do the same.

ryan
07-25-2011, 06:39 PM
From Matt Gold.

Going to take a stab in the dark here...

Santos..out?

Alonso
07-25-2011, 09:13 PM
Thought people might be interested in this. Interview with Heiko Oldoerp of the German Press who was covering Frings first game with TFC. Some good insight.

INSIDE THE MLS: HEIKO OLDOERP (http://www.rednationonline.ca/Podcasts.aspx#heiko)


Yeah, really articulate guy, and its at least his second language.

Great interview.

TFCRegina
07-25-2011, 09:20 PM
Yeah, really articulate guy, and its at least his second language.

Great interview.

I read that guy's name as Herp a Derp

Alonso
07-25-2011, 09:27 PM
I read that guy's name as Herp a Derp


LOL

Can't say that I've ever seen that first or last name before...

Weird name for sure.

tiberius
07-25-2011, 09:29 PM
Ok, the 4-3-3 is here to stay. Fine.

Any reason why it can't be implemented slowly as opposed to making the player go through a crash course?
And the really big answer, what proof is there that the 4-3-3 will even be effective in MLS? Why this dedication to the 4-3-3 ...

I'm sorry, this just is not so fucking complicated as it is made out to be. If the coach says play 4-3-3 - play 4-3-3. If the coach says "Play Your effing position - play your effing position. Guess what player: Cover your man = cover your man. I bet if you ask Ecks he would be in 110% agreement. I respect Ecks, his work ethic, his smarts, his grit - and I respect his view on this.

Some of these players are painfully obviously not doing some really basic things (including Santos). I suppose we can park some blame Winter's way (if you really want to...) because he doesn't want to kow-tow to some pretty obvious weaknesses of some players, but at this point I don't want to Kow-Tow, do you? Really? Not me, ship up, or ship out!

denime
07-25-2011, 09:31 PM
For all the posters suggesting we not play the 4-3-3 until we get players who we think can play that system: how are we supposed to evaluate the players we do have and the new players we think can play the 4-3-3 if we're playing a 4-4-2?
There's no way to switch from a conservative defense first 4-4-2 to a 4-3-3 in a season and not suck IMO. You just need to suck it up.

This,

Martina said almost the same explanation in one interview last week or week before.

ag futbol
07-25-2011, 09:47 PM
This,

Martina said almost the same explanation in one interview last week or week before.
Well Martina's also the guy who claims there are only two or three teams in MLS that are better than us and the rest is down to bad luck (from the espn article).

Take that quote into consideration when considering his grip on reality.

Whoop
07-26-2011, 01:31 AM
From Dichio.




DannyDichio (http://twitter.com/#%21/DannyDichio)



MLS ACADEMY CUP RESULT: TORONTO FC 7 Vs NEW ENGLAND REVOLUTION 1

TFCRegina
07-26-2011, 02:36 AM
^ Fuck that's awesome.

Oldtimer
07-26-2011, 06:45 AM
Thought people might be interested in this. Interview with Heiko Oldoerp of the German Press who was covering Frings first game with TFC. Some good insight.

INSIDE THE MLS: HEIKO OLDOERP (http://www.rednationonline.ca/Podcasts.aspx#heiko)

Good find.

TotalFootball
07-26-2011, 07:17 AM
I'm sorry, this just is not so fucking complicated as it is made out to be. If the coach says play 4-3-3 - play 4-3-3. If the coach says "Play Your effing position - play your effing position. Guess what player: Cover your man = cover your man. I bet if you ask Ecks he would be in 110% agreement. I respect Ecks, his work ethic, his smarts, his grit - and I respect his view on this.

Some of these players are painfully obviously not doing some really basic things (including Santos). I suppose we can park some blame Winter's way (if you really want to...) because he doesn't want to kow-tow to some pretty obvious weaknesses of some players, but at this point I don't want to Kow-Tow, do you? Really? Not me, ship up, or ship out!


But that’s the point. Some of those players like Santos and JDG CAN'T do those things. It is not in their soccer DNA. For all his life Santos has been lazy and opportunistic and relying on his skill set. He can't change now. That’s why we don't have the pieces for this system. You need 2 tireless aggressive and skilled Mid on the wing to succeed in that system. You can't ask JDG to be aggressive because he can't!!!

tiberius
07-26-2011, 08:04 PM
But that’s the point. Some of those players like Santos and JDG CAN'T do those things. It is not in their soccer DNA. For all his life Santos has been lazy and opportunistic and relying on his skill set. He can't change now. That’s why we don't have the pieces for this system. You need 2 tireless aggressive and skilled Mid on the wing to succeed in that system. You can't ask JDG to be aggressive because he can't!!!

So.. I think we are in agreement - for the long term good - ship 'em out - the sooner the better. No point in coddling their deficiencies - lets just move forward!