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[NBF]
07-23-2011, 09:30 PM
Woooohooo! another post game rant!!!!!

Player Ratings:

Frei-3

Viator-3
Eckersley-4
Iro-5
Yourassowsky-3

Santos-3
Zavarise-4
Frings-5

Koevermans-6
Johnson-6
Soolsma- 5

Subs:
Stinson-4
Henry-4
Morgan-4

MG42
07-23-2011, 09:32 PM
oh well

MartinUtd
07-23-2011, 09:33 PM
We have better players, but the bad ones are still bad. Until the average player on the team gets better we're all fur coat and no knickers.

A.J
07-23-2011, 09:35 PM
At least we're better than Vancouver

[NBF]
07-23-2011, 09:36 PM
We have better players, but the bad ones are still bad. Until the average player on the team gets better we're all fur coat and no knickers.

Fur coats and no knickers are rated at least a 6. What place do you come from where a fur coat and no knickers is the worse thing that can happen, I would like to visit some time.:hump:

boysblue
07-23-2011, 09:36 PM
what rating would you give mr. winter tonight?

Keyman
07-23-2011, 09:36 PM
We're definitely more dangerous in and around the box. Koevermans made some really intelligent runs, and you can tell he's going to finish quite a few of his opportunities, especially once he's match fit.

Johnson looked fantastic, not only around the net but on the flank - his delivery was spot on.

Frings wasn't noticeable, even on set pieces. That being said, he wasn't bad.

Iro scares the shit out of me, not only when the opposing team is on the attack (because I'm always afraid he'll get burned), but also when he's on the ball. He tries to do WAY too much, but I guess that's what Winter wants. Scary shit if that continues.

Viator is invariably out of position, can't mark for shit.

We need someone in the midfield who can push the ball forward and retain possession.

ag futbol
07-23-2011, 09:36 PM
Ok, GolTV camera work clearly sucks. Too many random closeups and missing the flow of the game. As if it wasn't enough of a kick in the ass for people playing for the subscription.

As for TFC: All I can ask for at this point is that we stay competitive. I don't think we were competitive in that game, ergo I am disappointed.

Two goals are nice, but mainly inconsequential IMO.

[NBF]
07-23-2011, 09:37 PM
At least we're better than Vancouver

Vancouver might be the worst team in the league, but they are entertaining to watch and they seem to have a system in place. They definitely don't look scatter shot like TFC.

ArmenJBX
07-23-2011, 09:37 PM
Maicon is essentially useless.
Gordon should have been kept on as Koev's backup and not Maicon.

And as far as I'm concerned, Ashtone Morgan>Yourassowsky & Stinson>Maicon.

mmmikey
07-23-2011, 09:39 PM
Ok, GolTV camera work clearly sucks. Too many random closeups and missing the flow of the game. As if it wasn't enough of a kick in the ass for people playing for the subscription.

seriously. i really question if they have a soccer person producing their broadcast. seems to have ZERO feel for the game.

Shakes McQueen
07-23-2011, 09:39 PM
We looked great out of the gate, but after a great goal by KC that wasn't really the "fault" of anyone, the guys got despondent and lazy for the last 20 minutes of the half, and threw this one away. Frei should have done way better on the second goal though, it needs to be said.

I was really impressed with Johnson and Koevermans today. Frings looked good again too. I was pleased to see that we came out swinging in the second half instead of continuing to capitulate.

Our defense is still shambolic. Don't need to expand on that. Santos was the worst player on the pitch in the opening half. Yourass was a close second.

Had Koov managed to bag that second great chance in the opening 20 minutes, this game might have ended better for us, but no excuses. The defending needs to be way better. If the space is available, we need to add a solid, reliable CB to our lineup.
- Scott

[NBF]
07-23-2011, 09:41 PM
what rating would you give mr. winter tonight?

When Winters took out Santos he did it out of spite and really all he did was admit that he made a mistake placing him in the lineup. He didn't even try to move him around to a position he would be better suited.

Subbing on Morgan for Yourassowsky really meant he wanted to give the youngster some playing time and he gave up on the team.

Allowing Koevermans to play by himself is a mistake all together. Bad use of the big striker.

Winter's rating: 3

mmmikey
07-23-2011, 09:41 PM
We looked great out of the gate, but after a great goal by KC that wasn't really the "fault" of anyone, the guys got despondent and lazy for the last 20 minutes of the half, and threw this one away. Frei should have done way better on the second goal though, it needs to be said.

I was really impressed with Johnson and Koevermans today. Frings looked good again too. I was pleased to see that we came out swinging in the second half instead of continuing to capitulate.

Our defense is still shambolic. Don't need to expand on that. Santos was the worst player on the pitch in the opening half. Yourass was a close second.

Had Koov managed to bag that second great chance in the opening 20 minutes, this game might have ended better for us, but no excuses. The defending needs to be way better. If the space is available, we need to add a solid, reliable CB to our lineup.
- Scott

agree with everything said here. we clearly need a reliable CB, pref 1 with some mobility and who can command the line. i think the team can live without a LB upgrade, although that would be nice too.

DichioTFC
07-23-2011, 09:42 PM
The problem that I've been noticing with Toronto is with off the ball movement. I didn't catch muchof this game, but it seems to me that the biggest problem is that players are not making themselves available for the person holding the ball.

SirBobSaget
07-23-2011, 09:43 PM
Very strong message subbing Santos out 1 min before half. Problem is finding another club willing to take him, nevermind the return.

swan
07-23-2011, 09:44 PM
Ok, GolTV camera work clearly sucks. Too many random closeups and missing the flow of the game. As if it wasn't enough of a kick in the ass for people playing for the subscription.

As for TFC: All I can ask for at this point is that we stay competitive. I don't think we were competitive in that game, ergo I am disappointed.

Two goals are nice, but mainly inconsequential IMO.

i don't wanna defend gol tv because i hate that it has gone to them but would this game really be their camera guys or are they just picking up the KC feed.. i don't see gol tv sending their own camera crew there..

QSIM
07-23-2011, 09:44 PM
We're definitely more dangerous in and around the box. Koevermans made some really intelligent runs, and you can tell he's going to finish quite a few of his opportunities, especially once he's match fit.

Johnson looked fantastic, not only around the net but on the flank - his delivery was spot on.

Frings wasn't noticeable, even on set pieces. That being said, he wasn't bad.

Iro scares the shit out of me, not only when the opposing team is on the attack (because I'm always afraid he'll get burned), but also when he's on the ball. He tries to do WAY too much, but I guess that's what Winter wants. Scary shit if that continues.

Viator is invariably out of position, can't mark for shit.

We need someone in the midfield who can push the ball forward and retain possession.

Agree with Iro. We need a cb to play with simplicity. Play smart and stay unnoticed.

Frings.

Shakes McQueen
07-23-2011, 09:46 PM
I'm also still really interested to see JDG, Frings, and Dunfield play together in midfield.

- Scott

[NBF]
07-23-2011, 09:46 PM
All I wanna say to Winter during this post game interview with Andi, is look down at her titties....look down....just once:)

swan
07-23-2011, 09:47 PM
;1346941']All I wanna say to Winter during this post game interview with Andi, is look down at her titties....look down....just once:)

lol.. nice

Macksam
07-23-2011, 09:47 PM
Stinson is a pretty good tackler. If he can learn to pass and develop some vision, he can become our poor man's version of Massimo Ambrosini.

Morgan played ok, nothing to brag home about.

Henry didn't look too bad in mid field. He looked composed for the most part.

ManUtd4ever
07-23-2011, 09:47 PM
The only positive I can take from this match is that TFC created enough quality scoring chances to earn a result. In that sense, I thought the match was fairly even. Unfortunately, KC capitalized on their chances early on, we didn't, and our backline capitulated in the latter stages of the first half to put the game out of reach.

On another note, Johnson looks like the best player in that multiplayer trade with San Jose.

Looking ahead, the playoffs are a write off. Perhaps TFC can gain respectability down the stretch with a decent run in MLS, but the opportunity for redemption starts on Wednesday.

Oldtimer
07-23-2011, 09:48 PM
;1346930']When Winters took out Santos he did it out of spite and really all he did was admit that he made a mistake placing him in the lineup. He didn't even try to move him around to a position he would be better suited.

Subbing on Morgan for Yourassowsky really meant he wanted to give the youngster some playing time and he gave up on the team.

Allowing Koevermans to play by himself is a mistake all together. Bad use of the big striker.

Winter's rating: 3

Don't know about the first point, but agree with all of the rest, including giving Winter a 3 for this match.

PopePouri
07-23-2011, 09:48 PM
Yourass was decent for the first 20 minutes and then fell into shit.

I'll bet Morgan will start next match and nail down the starting spot.

Regarding the scoreline, I got nothing....

kaos197O
07-23-2011, 09:49 PM
I'm also still really interested to see JDG, Frings, and Dunfield play together in midfield.

- Scott
I will enjoy that immensely. I truly believe with those 2 in this game we would at least have pulled out the tie.

Nicholas982
07-23-2011, 09:53 PM
2012 MLS Superdraft draft order

1. Montreal
2. Vancouver
3. Toronto

No?

pekduck
07-23-2011, 09:54 PM
Had about even number of chances, majority of them from left flank with Yourassowsky, Johnson and Frings from middle to Koevemans. Santos terminates all flows in midfield and fortunately subbed off with Stinson. Although Stinson was not noticeable (better than Santos' noticeably horrible ball hogging and possession loss), but he was able to connect a few short passes to flow the ball to right flank to Soolsma and stretching more open spaces.

Iro is turning into new Nick Garcia, no vision and stable ball control to create outlet passes, out of position, no marking on 2nd goal, puts Bravo on side on 3rd goal and keep on jittering with ball throughout the game. I almost wanted Harden back... almost.

Hope Iro can turn it around.


*on separate note, watching RSL vs SJ. Attakora almost cost SJ a goal by glaring mistake, Busch mad e a great save.

KC converts majority of their chances. Had Koevanmas scored first, it may be a better result.

billyfly
07-23-2011, 09:54 PM
Shit to hear.

[NBF]
07-23-2011, 09:55 PM
2012 MLS Superdraft draft order

1. Montreal
2. Vancouver
3. Toronto

No?

1. Montreal
2. Vancouver
3. Montreal (from Toronto FC)

MG42
07-23-2011, 09:56 PM
2012 MLS Superdraft draft order

1. Montreal
2. Vancouver
3. Toronto

No?

we have nyrb pick from the dero trade

Davenport
07-23-2011, 10:00 PM
Nice one Soccerpro, before the game you posted:
"I like the lineup. No obvious weak points at the back"
That back 4 included Iro, Yourass and Viator. They are crap.
Many posters on here and MLSE and Winter know nothing about the game.

J .
07-23-2011, 10:00 PM
Player Ratings:

Frei-3- he is beginning to look shell shocked

Viator-1 -why did they sign him?
Eckersley-2 -he shouldnt be at cb, at all, ever
Iro-2 - His footballing IQ appears to be really low
Yourassowsky-1 - Him and the flying V constantly out of defending position

Santos-1 - He will be transferred
Zavarise-2 - He should be benched
Frings-3 - Looked slow and out of answers

Koevermans-4 - where was his goal when it mattered
Johnson-5 - TFC MOM
Soolsma- 3- Too slow, cant cross

Subs:
Stinson-3 - Too young
Henry-4 - Hopefully he keeps developing
Morgan-4 Him too

TFC USA
07-23-2011, 10:00 PM
I don't think Vancouver is worse than us. By record yes, but 4-2, 6-2, 3-0, etc. suggests otherwise.

DichioTFC
07-23-2011, 10:06 PM
http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/MLS.html

53% chance we finish last in the league this season. Vancouver has a 31% chance.

EDIT: that doesn't take into account tonight's loss.

ParadymeTFC
07-23-2011, 10:06 PM
Nice little stadium.

PopePouri
07-23-2011, 10:11 PM
At least Koevermans has proven he's just as good as Mista.

tfcleeds
07-23-2011, 10:11 PM
Nice little stadium.

Yep, that's about all that can be said for this match really.

Azerban
07-23-2011, 10:15 PM
At least we're better than Vancouver

fuck you





also, winter out

Sweeper
07-23-2011, 10:16 PM
I'm really starting to hate the 4-3-3

Azerban
07-23-2011, 10:17 PM
also if you do player ratings like anyone gives a shit about your particularly bad opinion then fuck you too

SKB
07-23-2011, 10:23 PM
I know a lot of people are complaining about the camera work of GOL TV. But the camera work is not theirs, it is a local crew at the stadium they just take the feed and add commentary

Azerban
07-23-2011, 10:24 PM
it's espn power rankings only worse in every measurable dimension

can't wait to see you cunts 95% approval rating after we scrape out a 1-0 win over a third world countries second best team on wednesday, you know-nothings

ParadymeTFC
07-23-2011, 10:25 PM
it's espn power rankings only worse in every measurable dimension

can't wait to see you cunts 95% approval rating after we scrape out a 1-0 win over a third world countries second best team on wednesday, you know-nothings

Cool story bro.

Macksam
07-23-2011, 10:30 PM
Player Ratings:

Frei-3- he is beginning to look shell shocked

Viator-1 -why did they sign him?
Eckersley-2 -he shouldnt be at cb, at all, ever
Iro-2 - His footballing IQ appears to be really low
Yourassowsky-1 - Him and the flying V constantly out of defending position

Santos-1 - He will be transferred
Zavarise-2 - He should be benched
Frings-3 - Looked slow and out of answers

Koevermans-4 - where was his goal when it mattered
Johnson-5 - TFC MOM
Soolsma- 3- Too slow, cant cross

Subs:
Stinson-3 - Too young
Henry-4 - Hopefully he keeps developing
Morgan-4 Him too
I would still give Frings the nod for being our best player tonight. Johnson is good, but not great like everyone here is making him out to be.

MartinUtd
07-23-2011, 10:32 PM
it's espn power rankings only worse in every measurable dimension

can't wait to see you cunts 95% approval rating after we scrape out a 1-0 win over a third world countries second best team on wednesday, you know-nothings


Maybe it's time for some chicken noodle soup and an early bed time?

TFC USA
07-23-2011, 10:32 PM
it's espn power rankings only worse in every measurable dimension

can't wait to see you cunts 95% approval rating after we scrape out a 1-0 win over a third world countries second best team on wednesday, you know-nothings

I think you need to watch something else.

Try porn.

Section 117
07-23-2011, 10:35 PM
it's espn power rankings only worse in every measurable dimension

can't wait to see you cunts 95% approval rating after we scrape out a 1-0 win over a third world countries second best team on wednesday, you know-nothings

No really please tell us how you feel

PopePouri
07-23-2011, 10:41 PM
it's espn power rankings only worse in every measurable dimension

can't wait to see you cunts 95% approval rating after we scrape out a 1-0 win over a third world countries second best team on wednesday, you know-nothings

Classy.

MartinUtd
07-23-2011, 10:46 PM
On a more positive note, I like Stinson as an emerging midfielder. He shows a lot more heart than the likes of Sturgis/Gold. I'd throw Peterson in there if he were still here but he's gone and now so we need a new meter stick for mediocrity.

69Chevy396
07-23-2011, 10:48 PM
I think you need to watch something else.

Try porn.

Interesting. With porn you squirt a little something out one end, with TFC you get it pouring out the other.

ag futbol
07-23-2011, 10:53 PM
So anyway ... back to our regularly scheduled program:

I think it's really important TFC scrape it together and find some semblence of results before the end of the year.

I know Winter "has time" but it looks like the club is heading towards getting savaged on their renewals and that is going to have a huge trickle down effect. I'd also be on the look-out for him to fly the coop.

rocker
07-23-2011, 10:56 PM
I still can't believe what Santos did there tonight. I mean, he sees the ball the whole way coming to him... yes it's an awkward bounce... but he's a soccer player who deals with bounces all his life.... and he's got an endline and a sideline around him.... and it goes off him right to a KC striker. Clear it out!!! ugh. Then he tries to take on everyone in midfield when he had all kinds of passing options, complains to the ref about being manhandled, while KC goes the other way and scores.

One of the worst performances i've seen from a TFC player... and I've seen a lot of them.

69Chevy396
07-23-2011, 11:01 PM
So anyway ... back to our regularly scheduled program:

I think it's really important TFC scrape it together and find some semblence of results before the end of the year.

I know Winter "has time" but it looks like the club is heading towards getting savaged on their renewals and that is going to have a huge trickle down effect. I'd also be on the look-out for him to fly the coop.
You can't overstate the importance of this. It is reaching the point for many of us season ticket holders where we don't care anymore if they do improve. It will require more than a few lucky draws and a win to prevent the exodus. MLSE has blown this wonderful opportunity in innumerable ways; I doubt Winter will be able to make a difference, it may already be over for this team for many years to come.

J .
07-23-2011, 11:10 PM
I would still give Frings the nod for being our best player tonight. Johnson is good, but not great like everyone here is making him out to be.


I agree, but I do think Johnson was the best tfc player today. Frings had some glaring mistakes, very early he got burned on a run and was fortunate the SKC player had a horrible first touch.

Soccerpro
07-23-2011, 11:11 PM
Nice one Soccerpro, before the game you posted:
"I like the lineup. No obvious weak points at the back"
That back 4 included Iro, Yourass and Viator. They are crap.
Many posters on here and MLSE and Winter know nothing about the game.

A) It'd be nice if Winter played certain players in their natural position
B) Still better than Borman and Harden, sadly.
C) It's starting to look like after two games that Iro and Viator suck.

TFCREDNWHITE
07-23-2011, 11:13 PM
The back 3 suck balls! Iro sucks! Viator who cares, borman is shit....

TFCREDNWHITE
07-23-2011, 11:14 PM
Also do any of you really think JDG is injured....i don't...i think he is being a drama queen. What sucks is that we really fucking neeed him on the pitch with frings

dupont
07-23-2011, 11:18 PM
The system appears to be failing. Our defence simply can't handle trying to attack the whole game.

Dreadlocks
07-23-2011, 11:20 PM
First of all, if Koevermans scores on just one of those two chances at the start of the game things would have been much different.

Who's to blame?
The first goal was on Santos. The ball came to him quickly and it was awkward but I expect better. On the second goal, the ball beat Zavarise but Iro who is about 6 inches taller should have been there instead. Third goal was again on Iro because he played Bravo onside. Fourth goal was off of a counter which is to be expected at that stage of a game like that. They were pushing forward which opened things up at the back. However, I still think Viator or Eks could have done a better job picking Bravo up.

Unlike many matches this year, the problem tonight was not with the coaches or tactics. The only thing that I question was Santos at AM. If you guys remember in the first two games of the year, Santos played a couple of killer balls though to Dero and I think because of that Winter thinks Santos should have the vision to play that role - and he does. What Santos lacks is the work ethic, something that can be improved if the he wants (and he doesn't imo) so Winter is giving him a chance. Many are questioning why Viator and Ecks we played out of position. The answer is pretty clear. Ecks is comfortable on the ball while Viator from what I could tell is not good on the ball.

Disappointments...
Iro
Viator
Santos

Meh....
Ecks - Looked ok-ish but would be much better out wide
Frings, sort of - Did show a certain level of presence that you don't see out of MLS players but needs to do better with set pieces.
Soolsma - Didn't get enough of the ball but when he did, he did well or tried to do a bit too much
Koevermans - Should have had a hat-trick
Yourassovsky - Started well but but he seems to lose his head when he doesn't get the ball all the time.

Surprises:
Zavarise - Kept the flow going
Stinson - Settled well in the midfield
Morgan - Supplied some pretty good crosses and looked lively
Henry - Didn't look out of place in the attacking 3rd. Seems multi-dimentional

Played well:
Frei - Made some great saves but still can improve his distribution
Johnson - Man of the Match

Over all I was hoping for better but the team did show some heart and pride in not giving up until the final whistle. I think (or maybe just hope) that things will get better.

I'm still really uncomfortable going into the Real Estelli match.

drexel10
07-23-2011, 11:21 PM
This team isn't good, but I am more disappointed with how naive the coaches are. They think they want to play attractive football, however it doesn't work that way. The defenders were exposed by a horrendous midfield with Sanots and Zavarisie. They were not in the the camera every time KC was coming down the field. This team has to be more compact and that comes from coaching. Yourassawsky was up the left wing before a ball was even sent out to him and then when it doesn't make it to him we are under attack. Just really careless tactics.

Everyone makes fun of Preki on this board, but he was the only coach in 5 years that made us competitive on the road. I mean for 5 years, I am watching the worst show on the road.

TFCREDNWHITE
07-23-2011, 11:24 PM
It's not the system...Winter and the system must! Must stay until at least next year...the worst thing u could do is start from scratch again!...

Look, u think we like going to university every damn day n sitting through boring lectures....Hell No! But we do it because we are going to get something very useful in four years..

The coach and the system must stay!

TFCREDNWHITE
07-23-2011, 11:30 PM
Where the $@%& are Dunfield n DeGuz! Seriously we are lacking without DeGuz in the Mid...

gomesv
07-23-2011, 11:41 PM
Dreadlocks

On the second goal, the ball beat Zavarise but Iro who is about 6 inches taller should have been there instead.

Look at highlights of this goal again.........I think you'd be more right to peg this one on Santos again, he get's beat so easily by Jefferson I think, allowing the cross into the box with zero challenge

Dreadlocks
07-23-2011, 11:45 PM
Dreadlocks

On the second goal, the ball beat Zavarise but Iro who is about 6 inches taller should have been there instead.

Look at highlights of this goal again.........I think you'd be more right to peg this one on Santos again, he get's beat so easily by Jefferson I think, allowing the cross into the box with zero challenge

Ya you're right. Santos played pylon again but I still think that Iro should have been the last man at the back (left) post.

Either way, both were really bad overall.

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2011, 12:07 AM
Santos was absolutely dreadful tonight. Dreadful.

- Scott

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 12:34 AM
I'm very surprised myself to say this but I viewed this game completely different than most of you.

I guess when you already feel the team has hit rock bottom there's no let down, but I saw a few things I liked.

First of all, I like Danny K. Full stop. Dangerous for most of the game, we haven't had that in the target position since Danny D.

Johnson, sweet sweet floater to Danny K and great finish on the bungle from the KC defense.

And a major plus for me is that Bunbury did not score. I don't think I would have liked that very much.

As for the scoreline, that is a big problem. Our D is simply horrible. And am I wrong but was Ecks at CB again? If that's the case that is just a poor decision.

The biggest negative is that this was an even bigger nail in our playoff hopes as slim as they were. But since I had already accepted that, it wasn't as big a deal for me.

And I have to say this simply because I believe it but it would be interesting for the player ratings to also include the coach ratings because once again I thought Winter was poor in this regard.

I think maybe my calmness is because I've said everything there is to say about what is wrong with this team and I'm still in holding mode with regards to this latest edition.

Alixir
07-24-2011, 12:36 AM
I expect nothing less then a win next Wednesday...anything other and this team can get fucked. I think they might be the worst team in the history of MLS.

TFCRegina
07-24-2011, 12:36 AM
I'm very surprised myself to say this but I viewed this game completely different than most of you.

I guess when you already feel the team has hit rock bottom there's no let down, but I saw a few things I liked.

First of all, I like Danny K. Full stop. Dangerous for most of the game, we haven't had that since Danny D.

Johnson, sweet sweet floater to Danny K and great finish on the bungle from the KC defense.

As for the scoreline, that is a big problem. Our D is simply horrible. And am I wrong but was Ecks at CB again? If that's the case that is just a poor decision.

The biggest negative is that this was an even bigger nail in our playoff hopes as slim as they were. But since I had already accepted that, it wasn't as big a deal for me.

And I have to say this simply because I believe it but it would be interesting for the player ratings to also include the coach ratings because once again I thought Winter was poor in this regard.

I think maybe my calmness is because I've said everything there is to say about what is wrong with this team and I'm still in holding mode with regards to this latest edition.

Strangely, every time I see us score multiple goals while losing, I'm more impressed than if we had lost 1-0.

The team isn't great at all. The transfer window has made a clear improvement in the squad. The D is still terrible. But again, we haven't done much to address the back four. What did we expect?

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 12:39 AM
Santos was absolutely dreadful tonight. Dreadful.

- Scott

Not a great game but we let 4 goals in. Your AM should be the last place you look when you've let in that many goals. Identifying the real problems with a team's results is more efficient and I think has been a real problem for TFC fans to recognize. When you don't score your forwards should be questioned. When you let in goals you should look at the keeper and defensive line. Not to say that it should be the only place to look, but that is where you should start.

And in both instances, your coach should explain himself.

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2011, 12:43 AM
Agreed about Koov, Roogsy. I thought he looked great tonight, and it looks like he might have a competent playmate in Johnson. It was poor luck that he didn't net either of his first couple of chances - particularly the second one, that was kept out by a great last-ditch save. And he will only look better as his fitness returns, and he gets more comfortable with these players.

We looked completely fine going forward, until the first goal went in, and then the air rapidly left the balloon for the rest of the first half. Defensive mental lapses are still a huge problem - guys not having the presence of mind to cover for other guys, guys getting cheaply stripped of the ball, guys trying to get fancy instead of clearing the ball out of danger, and guys trying to take on too many players.

The scoreline looks bad, but the actual performance wasn't all bad. There are things that can be built on.

- Scott

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 01:51 AM
Strangely, every time I see us score multiple goals while losing, I'm more impressed than if we had lost 1-0.

The team isn't great at all. The transfer window has made a clear improvement in the squad. The D is still terrible. But again, we haven't done much to address the back four. What did we expect?

There is a fundamental belief I have about all sports that has influenced my view of soccer and in particular Toronto FC. And that is that it is much harder to score than it is to defend and keep a scorer off a score sheet.

It is for this reason that capable scorers are more valued, get all the glory, all the women and all the money. It is a reason I supported DeRo because what he accomplished in Toronto was nothing short of legendary.

So like you, when TFC does score, considering the trouble we have had this year scoring and having gone 300+ minutes without scoring, I certainly feel better scoring two in a loss than I would be losing 1-0.

As for defence, with the horrendous defensive record we have, I have to admit I am left scratching my head. Was Winter not a defensive midfielder? And I thought I read somewhere that at times he was used on the backline? Or am I mistaken? Either way, I am honestly surprised at this team's defensive woes. You don't need a star on the backline to make it competent. Only a competent strategy and good communication.

gomesv
07-24-2011, 01:54 AM
Not a great game but we let 4 goals in. Your AM should be the last place you look when you've let in that many goals. Identifying the real problems with a team's results is more efficient and I think has been a real problem for TFC fans to recognize. When you don't score your forwards should be questioned. When you let in goals you should look at the keeper and defensive line. Not to say that it should be the only place to look, but that is where you should start.

And in both instances, your coach should explain himself.


except in this case Santos was directly responsible for the first 2 goals.....just saying...:o

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 02:02 AM
except in this case Santos was directly responsible for the first 2 goals.....just saying...:o


Oh I profoundly disagree with this opinion.

On the first goal, it bounced off his chest unintentionally off a corner. Viator and Iro were both in the vicinity of Kamara and yet Kamara had the space and ability for a bicycle kick? I'd pin that one on the 2 defenders before I would the AM that was correctly covering the near post on the corner.

On the second, he was burned on the right wing but did you see how far back he was tracking? He's an attacking forward! The real question there is, where was the right-back? He was in no-man's land in the box. And then the cross gets looped lazily into the far-post and Zavarise is covering that deep as well? Where was the left-back??? About 10 yards upfield, standing flat-footed. Those are my initial thoughts. When you have your attacking players that deep in your defensive zone and neither wingback is anywhere near the cross or the ball entering the far-end of the 6-yard box but instead your attacking wingers are covering the attacking players, there is a real problem there.

I am not saying Santos was exemplary in either case in fact he was quite lazy on the 2nd goal. But the positioning there was horrendous. TFC lost all defensive shape on all their goals and that is a problem of the backline. But I get the feeling Winter feels the same as you, and I absolutely do not agree at all.

gomesv
07-24-2011, 02:08 AM
Oh I profoundly disagree with this opinion.

On the first goal, it bounced off his chest unintentionally off a corner. Viator and Iro were both in the vicinity of Kamara and yet Kamara had the space and ability for a bicycle kick? I'd pin that one on the 2 defenders before I would the AM that was correctly covering the near post on the corner.

On the second, he was burned on the right wing but did you see how far back he was tracking? He's an attacking forward! The real question there is, where was the right-back? And then the cross gets looped lazily into the far-post and Zavarise is covering that deep as well? Where was the left-back??? Those are my initial thoughts. When you have your attacking players that deep in your defensive zone and neither wingback is anywhere near the cross or the ball entering the far-end of the 6-yard box but instead your attacking wingers are covering the attacking players, there is a real problem there.

I am not saying Santos was exemplary in either case, but the positioning there was horrendous. TFC lost all defensive shape on all their goals and that is a problem of the backline. But I get the feeling Winter feels the same as you, and I absolutely do not agree at all.


Not sure if it was so unitentional or he just didn't control it well, I believe most would agree he should have knocked it out for another corner
As for the second goal, yes he was tracking but I believe he was playing in the right midfield position, hence his responsibilty to track back and help out on the right side....no?

But I agree defense is brutal

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 02:13 AM
Absolutely you're right, he is to help on the right side, but Viator did not pressure the player as he burned Santos (very ugly I agree) and entered the 18 yard box zone. Viator needed to step up and pressure the attacking player so that he could not place the cross so patiently. Just like in basketball, the more time a player has to setup his shot/cross, the more accurate it will be. But like Yourassowsky, he was flat-footed in the middle of the box. Movement in the box is crucial for a defender as offensive players try to shake them off. Frings was textbook in doing that on the same play, look how closely he tracks his own player and how lax Viator is in his own box. He got caught ball-watching as Espinoza burned Santos.

You will also notice that it was Viator that kept Bravo onside on that 3rd goal for KC. Maybe it's just time he needs to settle in but in this particular game, I think Viator was directly responsible for 2 maybe 3 goals. I am not passing judgement on him overall, just this particular game.

I'd also point out that this is a tactically poor move by Winter putting Santos on the right midfield. He is out of position there and it fails to take advantage of his best abilities. Instead, it was used in this particular case to expose his defensive weakness (which he admittedly has, exactly why he should not be there).

gomesv
07-24-2011, 02:15 AM
Oh I profoundly disagree with this opinion.

On the first goal, it bounced off his chest unintentionally off a corner. Viator and Iro were both in the vicinity of Kamara and yet Kamara had the space and ability for a bicycle kick? I'd pin that one on the 2 defenders before I would the AM that was correctly covering the near post on the corner.

On the second, he was burned on the right wing but did you see how far back he was tracking? He's an attacking forward! The real question there is, where was the right-back? He was in no-man's land in the box. And then the cross gets looped lazily into the far-post and Zavarise is covering that deep as well? Where was the left-back??? About 10 yards upfield, standing flat-footed. Those are my initial thoughts. When you have your attacking players that deep in your defensive zone and neither wingback is anywhere near the cross or the ball entering the far-end of the 6-yard box but instead your attacking wingers are covering the attacking players, there is a real problem there.

I am not saying Santos was exemplary in either case in fact he was quite lazy on the 2nd goal. But the positioning there was horrendous. TFC lost all defensive shape on all their goals and that is a problem of the backline. But I get the feeling Winter feels the same as you, and I absolutely do not agree at all.


Wow I just read your last paragraph, missed it the first time, I get it, you only disagree that the first two goals were Santo's fault because then that makes Winter wrong for taking him off the field....your unbelievable you"ll go to any extent to blame him won't you....even though it's very clear to most.......WOW

And just FYI I'm not a fan of Winter

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 02:25 AM
I actually agree that Winter should have taken him off the pitch considering he was out of position. But I think he blames him for the goals which is what I disagree with. I was just pointing that out.

It's not that I will go to any length to blame Winter, it's that I genuinely believe Winter made a tactical mistake here and I am pointing it out. Unless you think this is where Santos plays naturally? If not, then we must assess whether playing him there was judicious use of Santos or not. Isn't that what we should do?

gomesv
07-24-2011, 02:28 AM
Roogsy,

One last remark, I believe Santos is stationed to the left of the post on the corner, his job is to clear any balls from that area, he's looking at the corner and the player striking the ball into the area, the ball comes straight to him, I don't believe there is a deflection, "unitentional".... it would have been his job to clear that ball....

are you being objective here or are you looking for any reason to discredit Winter for taking him off?

gomesv
07-24-2011, 02:31 AM
I actually agree that Winter should have taken him off the pitch considering he was out of position. But I think he blames him for the goals which is what I disagree with. I was just pointing that out.

It's not that I will go to any length to blame Winter, it's that I genuinely believe Winter made a tactical mistake here and I am pointing it out. Unless you think this is where Santos plays naturally? If not, then we must assess whether playing him there was judicious use of Santos or not. Isn't that what we should do?


your absolutely right....that's why I don't much believe in Winter....his tactical player options have been brutal...it's like he doesn't have a clue.

but I think you'll make your point by being more objective......Santos stunk up the joint Winter removed him. NO he shouldn't be played at that position or starting for my opinion.

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 02:34 AM
I can't discredit Winter for taking him off because I feel it was the correct decision. In the setup he had at the start of the game, Santos should either have been used elsewhere or not at all. So taking him off was necessary.

I think the mistake actually lies in where he was playing Santos to begin with.

Listen, the first goal was a difficult one all around. Controlling the corner kick into the box was a difficult task. It bounced off of him, there was no ability to "clear", just to keep the ball out of the net. It just so happened it landed at the feet of Kamara who was given the space to whip around for a half-bicycle kick. To be honest, that goal could have gone either way. Just an unlucky bounce added to some weak marking.

It's the second kick where TFC's lapses were more egregious. Santos included. But I don't believe Santos should be anywhere near that right back position in the first place which is why I have a problem with the selection. And yes, that does fall on Winter. And yes, it does support my view that Winter is tactically inexperienced. I can't help it if he gives me the evidence himself.

Now, if you're saying that Santos should be playing that right wing, then maybe we can discuss the merits of the choice?

gomesv
07-24-2011, 02:41 AM
I can't discredit Winter for taking him off because I feel it was the correct decision. In the setup he had at the start of the game, Santos should either have been used elsewhere or not at all. So taking him off was necessary.

I think the mistake actually lies in where he was playing Santos to begin with.

Listen, the first goal was a difficult one all around. Controlling the corner kick into the box was a difficult task. It bounced off of him, there was no ability to "clear", just to keep the ball out of the net. It just so happened it landed at the feet of Kamara who was given the space to whip around for a bicycle kick. To be honest, that goal could have gone either way. Just an unlucky bounce added to some weak marking.

It's the second kick where TFC's lapses were more egregious. Santos included. But I don't believe Santos should be anywhere near that right back position in the first place which is why I have a problem with the selection. And yes, that does fall on Winter. And yes, it does support my view that Winter is tactically inexperienced. I can't help it if he gives me the evidence himself.

Now, if you're saying that Santos should be playing that right wing, then maybe we can discuss the merits of the choice?


What I'm saying is your right.... We very much agree that Winter is inept at making the appropriate player selections....He's clearly demonstrated this over this very long season and you have a right to be all over him for this...... All I'm saying is it weakens your arguement by blaming Winter when a player has a bad game.....We both know he's doing it to himself.

Make sense it is 3:40 in the am after all
keep making your arguements I generally agree with you just be objective.:)

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 02:42 AM
I will quote a statement I read on the Usector board after they found out where Santos was playing.


The thing with Santos is - he's not a MF, and to put him at OM (likely at the expense of Dunfield, with Frings back to DM) would be to sacrifice any DF help from him at all. Honestly, I dont see Santos having a place in the team now, but AW likes him at OM so he'll probably start him there all the same.


A fan saw the danger, Winter did not. And that is what concerns me.

I also agree that Santos may have found himself out of position with the new incoming players. I like him. I hope he'll stay as a bench player. But I agree with those that think perhaps Gordon should have stayed and Santos should have been traded. Especially since I believe his cap hit is higher than Gordon and Gordon could have been used to sub Koov.

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 02:42 AM
keep making your arguements I generally agree with you just be objective.:)


I try. Sometimes I am misunderstood, sometimes I shoot myself in the foot. :D

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 02:47 AM
On the 4th goal...where was Iro? :noidea: Poor Ecks was left out to dry. And boy was he pissed.

gomesv
07-24-2011, 02:52 AM
On the 4th goal...where was Iro? :noidea: Poor Ecks was left out to dry. And boy was he pissed.


I don't know where Iro was, but I know where I'm going.....to bed...

Dude what is that you do for a living again?......I mean have you looked at the time?

cheers :D

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 02:54 AM
:lol:

Staying up to feed the baby. He should be up soon.

Gnite...

bigbamboom
07-24-2011, 06:39 AM
While we still have some mediocrity ... if Dunfield, Deguze, Koevermans, Frings, Johnson, Ecks, Plata, Frei are in the line up - have we ever had more talent on the team....I don't think so. Can we just get some decent fillers to complete the group....

In reference to Roogsys first post...I'd have to agree...I saw some things I liked...We looked creative, dangerous and with Koevermans, I think we can finish.

The best play of the game is our new DP - down 3...scores and instead of celebrating - grabs the ball and runs it back to the spot to save time - and make it clear - its not about him...its about the team...hats off Danny ... welcome ... we need you.

Pookie
07-24-2011, 07:15 AM
Santos was the worst player on the pitch in the opening half.

Very telling statement to sub a guy with a few minutes left in the first half.

Pookie
07-24-2011, 07:18 AM
re: trading of Santos vs Gordon

It's fine to suggest that but would San Jose (or other teams) have preferred Santos over Gordon, especially with his higher cap hit?

Mikey
07-24-2011, 07:25 AM
I expect nothing less then a win next Wednesday...anything other and this team can get fucked. I think they might be the worst team in the history of MLS.

No point worrying about that until the season ends and they haven't made the playoffs, at that point they WILL be the worst team in the history of the MLS, and the only team not to qualify for the playoffs in 5 years (and Counting). I'll be mailing Anselmi the biggest wooden spoon I can find, and for a couple of bucks extra on top of all the money we have already wasted here it would be nice if a few hundred other people did too....

Beach_Red
07-24-2011, 08:03 AM
re: trading of Santos vs Gordon

It's fine to suggest that but would San Jose (or other teams) have preferred Santos over Gordon, especially with his higher cap hit?

And the international roster spot?

billyfly
07-24-2011, 08:42 AM
I like the mailing of a wooden spoon idea. Let him freak out over the hidden meaning.

AmherstNY_TFC
07-24-2011, 09:13 AM
Even at the start of the season, I did not think TFC was going to make the playoffs. I suspected it would be a season where I would have to suck it up while the team brought in new players and a new system.

As of right now, I am looking at the season in terms of whether the club is making improvements. Are the players coming in an upgrade at their positions. So far I would say:

Koevermans: Yes
Frings: Yes
Johnson: Yes
Iro and Viator: not so much.

ag futbol
07-24-2011, 09:22 AM
Yes, I have to say as much as Santos was absolute crap we've seen him play like this in the midfield before.

Player choices were baffling.

QSIM
07-24-2011, 09:30 AM
Yes, I have to say as much as Santos was absolute crap we've seen him play like this in the midfield before.

Player choices were baffling.

The only change I would have made Is Sturgis for Santos. Besides that, I think Winter started our best lineup available.

Waking up this morning I have a sense of optimism. I thought back to the game and thought we actually played quite well despite a 10 minute lapse. Let's not forget we have a handful of players who have barely practiced together and have been thrown into 2 games in less than a week.

If we play, and create the same number of chances against Esteli wednesday we will be fine (I have faith that our defense will be somewhat cohesive against a weaker side).

Beyond that I just hope the squad continues to improve, gel, and eventually demand more of itself as they pick up points.

tiberius
07-24-2011, 09:56 AM
...and the only team not to qualify for the playoffs in 5 years (and Counting). I'll be mailing Anselmi the biggest wooden spoon I can find, and for a couple of bucks extra on top of all the money we have already wasted here it would be nice if a few hundred other people did too....
Mikey I think you have hit on the perfect protest - we don't have to wait for the end of the season, lets start sending them now - not just to Anselmi either. Anybody can do it, anytime! The spoon is not for last place, it is for missing the playoffs - just a slight twist! I am headed for the buck store...

Can we have a quick discussion on this spoon idea before the "we are not a protest group" faction gets the thread shut down??

ManUtd4ever
07-24-2011, 10:04 AM
I agree that a couple of the lineup selections were curious. At this point, it's become glaringly obvious that Santos is only effective as a CF, and he should be used strictly as a late sub now that Danny K. is in town. I don't think the backline is as weak as it appeared to be last night either. I assumed the purpose of acquiring a natural CB in Viator was to allow Ecks to move back to the right flank where he is most effective, yet they were both seemingly out of position.

Otherwise, the front six (minus Santos) looked better than it has all season. I can't remember the last time a group of TFC forwards generated enough quality chances to score 4-5 goals on the road. As for the back four, it's really a shame that Cann and Williams are out for the season, but I think our remaining group of defenders can be effective if Winter utilizes the right combination. Perhaps it's worth giving Morgan and Henry a legitimate shot at this point, as both were solid last night.

Darlofletch
07-24-2011, 10:38 AM
disappointing overall, looked like a shambles at the back, and santos proved again that he's no good in midfield and should be considered strictly back up striker material.

with all that said, frings did well again, and Koevermans really showed his potential as well. 3 good chances, 1 goal, 1 narrow miss, and 1 ridiculously good and lucky save to deny him, that's a decent night out for a striker. johnson scoring is also a very good thing as we've had no secondary scoring all season really, so hopefully he can keep that up.

2 practice games out of the way for the new squad. now it gets serious.

Pachuco
07-24-2011, 11:47 AM
Well, I think it's up to Winter to make this defense better and to find an AM before the window closes. The defensive guys he brought in look worse then the guys sitting on the bench. And I don't know how long we've been saying we need an AM badly, so instead we get another fucking DP DM. I like Frings and all, but that move should have been followed by JDG's departure and a replacement AM. Maicon needs to go back to being a striker sub ASAP. Ecks needs to go back to being a right back and we need to bring in another CB. Viator should be Eck's backup.

On a more positive note, best TFC player tonight by far was Johnson. Koev's did a bang up job as well, excited to watch both these guys play some more.

MisterMacphisto
07-24-2011, 12:06 PM
Ok, GolTV camera work clearly sucks. Too many random closeups and missing the flow of the game. As if it wasn't enough of a kick in the ass for people playing for the subscription.

Here is their contact address:

goltv@mapleleafsports.com

Please send them a message. The random closeups on players during run of play was brutal.

Alonso
07-24-2011, 12:32 PM
Well, I think it's up to Winter to make this defense better and to find an AM before the window closes. The defensive guys he brought in look worse then the guys sitting on the bench. And I don't know how long we've been saying we need an AM badly, so instead we get another fucking DP DM. I like Frings and all, but that move should have been followed by JDG's departure and a replacement AM. Maicon needs to go back to being a striker sub ASAP. Ecks needs to go back to being a right back and we need to bring in another CB. Viator should be Eck's backup.

On a more positive note, best TFC player tonight by far was Johnson. Koev's did a bang up job as well, excited to watch both these guys play some more.


I'm pretty sure that if this was a possibility it would have been done.

JDG is signed on for another year after this, they can eat his contract in the off season and free up his cap space, but as of now they can't. His cap space counts against the cap regardless if he's here or not. Unless of course he agrees to a buyout and trade, which I don't see happening since he is not a highly prized player.

I think the best option is to use JDG as an attacking type mid like he played for the CMNT in which he was honoured with the player of the tournament in the Gold Cup. Then in the off season assess whether he did a good jpb at it, and if not, buy out his contract and sign another DP AM.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-24-2011, 12:47 PM
The defensive guys he brought in look worse then the guys sitting on the bench.

while they obviously didnt look good, i think this is too strong a statement.
i do think they need time to play together, that being said we do need some stronger players in there

jazzy
07-24-2011, 01:06 PM
Well, I think it's up to Winter to make this defense better and to find an AM before the window closes. The defensive guys he brought in look worse then the guys sitting on the bench. And I don't know how long we've been saying we need an AM badly, so instead we get another fucking DP DM. I like Frings and all, but that move should have been followed by JDG's departure and a replacement AM. Maicon needs to go back to being a striker sub ASAP. Ecks needs to go back to being a right back and we need to bring in another CB. Viator should be Eck's backup.

On a more positive note, best TFC player tonight by far was Johnson. Koev's did a bang up job as well, excited to watch both these guys play some more.

how do we get rid of JDG?, we're locked in. Patient is all we can have. I'm sure he wants out too, but remember the $.

sashavukelich
07-24-2011, 01:09 PM
If we could move JDG, we'd get enough cap space to sign two MLS all-star quality CB's....

ag futbol
07-24-2011, 01:16 PM
If we could move JDG, we'd get enough cap space to sign two MLS all-star quality CB's.... What is the cap hit these days per designated player? The only thing I could find suggested 335k per dp.

sashavukelich
07-24-2011, 01:21 PM
i think it's somewhere around there Ag_futbol.

but that's what...170k per player? man...we'd be destoyers with that space to solidify the defense, also if we had Bochiba's wages released (never even played a game...)

Stryker
07-24-2011, 01:22 PM
If we could move JDG, we'd get enough cap space to sign two MLS all-star quality CB's....
And this will happen post season. If JDG's contract isn't up, Winter will demand that he be bought out.

As bad as the CB's were I think our most pressing matter is LB. Yourass, Borman and even Morgan were/are all absolute shite. We might as well be playing a 3-4-3 with how often these guys are caught up feild.

Having said that I thought the offence looked very good and will be great in the future. Johnson and Kovermans were very dangerous. Soolsma, despite his lack of pace, was putting on a clinic on shaking defenders one v one and putting in some quality crosses. Frings was great again.

Just accept the season is a loss and infact a presason for alot of the new players and you'll enjoy the games alot more. Once they have time to build alittle more cemistry and we get a couple more players back from injuries AND a couple more moves are made I think we'll be a challanging for 3rd to 5th overall position by the end of next season.

jazzy
07-24-2011, 01:29 PM
Here is their contact address:

goltv@mapleleafsports.com

Please send them a message. The random closeups on players during run of play was brutal.

It probably isn't their feed but still deal with it GOL, We pay mucho extra $, for this crap and I sent them my e-mail outlining my disgust of their crap, and btw, we're dropping it....ha along with all rogers cable,internet btw....far too much $$$ too little value.

los sonadores
07-24-2011, 01:34 PM
I was encouraged despite the loss. We had more fight combined with skill out there than we've ever had. JDG and Dunfield should help the back 4 (which yes, still need "rebuilding"). These guys are going to have to learn to play with each other, and we need more players who are capable of moving off the ball well.

New players w/ mediocre fitness, JDG, Dunfield and Plata out, high heat and humidity, traveling away after a mid-week game... odds are not favorable we are going to win that - you know there are going to be too many mistakes for that.

los sonadores
07-24-2011, 01:45 PM
Agree about Gol broadcast, terrible. And did we really need to see Soolsma talking about his favorite colour and his cat's name, not once but twice? They played that idiotic interview in the pregame and between halves.

I really miss CBC and especially Nigel Reed. Wileman is okay but he needs help in the booth and is pretty generically uninteresting, IMO

tiberius
07-24-2011, 02:17 PM
...I'd also point out that this is a tactically poor move by Winter putting Santos on the right midfield. He is out of position there and it fails to take advantage of his best abilities. Instead, it was used in this particular case to expose his defensive weakness (which he admittedly has, exactly why he should not be there).

<putting on the asbestos suit:)> I am going to play devil's advocate...

I phoned up Aron Winter this morning and he agreed to chat candidly with me for a few minutes - no political bull - no spin - (just straight shootin', Dutch Style Aron.. - that means there were a few ummss and errs)

Here is what he said:
"I am serene and confident that I have until next year to get a decent team on the field. I am not going to make a bunch of shortsighted decisions because I am worried about how we end up in the standings. I don't care very much about the standings right now - it would be nice if a few more games had gone our way, but in the long term, it really doesn't matter much. Tommy A and front office know there is going to be a huge drop in Season Ticket sales in September. Everyone is at peace with that, and I will not be made to take the fall for what should and is being properly being attributed to MOJO. Tommy A. has run the numbers and he has everyone's ass well covered to weather the short term financial fallout from this fall's season ticket renewal."

Winter then mentions that a short term goal for the team is to end the season on a high note. By the end of the last home game of the season, his team has to show improvement, perhaps peaking and having a great last game or two. He notes that a couple of memorable, positive games at the end of the season will help a lot, going into the off-season and into next year.

Winter then talks vision:
"One of this year's longer term goals is to assemble the best team possible for next year. I am looking for touch, soccer smarts, desire, ability to learn fairly quickly, ADAPTIBILITY and also some ruggedness. Players that rotate on and off the injury list tend to hurt the team and make it very difficult to field a consistent starting 11..."

Aron also noted that Adrian Cann's injury is a little different:

"Adrian is a gamer and I expect he will be fit and ready to play every game next year. We do not view this season ending injury caused by crappy artificial turf as any reflection on his fitness, desire or ability to fully recover"

When questioned on his questionable starting elevens, and positioning of certain players, Aron laughed:

"Yes I have made some bonehead mistakes, and yes injuries have forced me to contort my players a little but, errr... I am also testing and assessing each player's adaptibility and desire to work with us..."

"In this league, with a salary cap and a short bench, players who can be flexible and adaptable are more valuable. Take Maicon Santos in last night's game... Could he play another position, or is he a one trick pony? Don't forget, I have to answer to the fans, the front office and the team members themselves. Maicon is liked by a lot of people around here, and is the team captain - if I am going to trade him, it is far better for him to have had the chance to show everyone that he has both the desire to be adaptable, and that he can deliver on it. The game last night gave everyone the answer... Sometimes there are morale, team dynamics and politics involved in my game selections - I don't have time to explain this, especially to the media..."

I then noted that there has been a ton of flak sent his way regarding his continued use of the 4-3-3 formation. Again Aron laughed:

"I was brought in here precisely to attempt to implement this system. With all of the money spent in the last 6 months, you want me to flail around game to game with a bunch of different formations, all in the hope to win a couple games? I will repeat: My major goal for this year is to assemble the best team possible with touch, soccer smarts, desire, ability to learn fairly quickly, ADAPTIBILITY and also some ruggedness. Period. If I can build a team that has proven they can change and adapt, I can play any bloody system I want next year. If the 4-3-3 is still not working out next year I will change the formation."

I thanked him for his candidness, and we ended the call...

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2011, 02:44 PM
That's a very.. uh... interesting imaginary phone call you had there, man.

- Scott

T.O TILL I DIE
07-24-2011, 03:05 PM
im pretty sure noone read that long imaginary phone call....

Pachuco
07-24-2011, 03:17 PM
I'm pretty sure that if this was a possibility it would have been done.

JDG is signed on for another year after this, they can eat his contract in the off season and free up his cap space, but as of now they can't. His cap space counts against the cap regardless if he's here or not. Unless of course he agrees to a buyout and trade, which I don't see happening since he is not a highly prized player.

I think the best option is to use JDG as an attacking type mid like he played for the CMNT in which he was honoured with the player of the tournament in the Gold Cup. Then in the off season assess whether he did a good jpb at it, and if not, buy out his contract and sign another DP AM.

I couldn't think of a worse person to put at AM then JDG on the team. I would put Harden there before JDG (yes I'm exagerating). He's terrible going forward and has zero ability to put the ball in the net. That Gold Cup was a long time ago, times have changed. Anyway, what I was saying was that there is no way you bring in another DP DM if you don't have immediate plans to get rid of him. I understand the angle that we may be stuck with him until the end of the season, which means if I see him in preseason as well as Frings I will just about flip my lid. And if we have to wait until July again before we get an AM replacement well then, we'll be in trouble by then. One of the most important positions in my mind on the field is AM (ok I'm biased cause I played it my whole life) but still, we don't have a single player who plays there naturally and it's a disgrace that we have 17 DMs and no AMs.

EDIT: BTW I'd much rather see if Frings can play AM and put JDG in the only spot on the field he's decent at.

swan
07-24-2011, 03:23 PM
im pretty sure noone read that long imaginary phone call....


i read it but i'm stuck at work board out of my mind..

tiberius
07-24-2011, 03:31 PM
im pretty sure noone read that long imaginary phone call....

What can I say? It is a slow Sunday afternoon after another loss. I have no other way to (positively) explain the situation we are in.

Pookie
07-24-2011, 04:27 PM
Otherwise, the front six (minus Santos) looked better than it has all season. I can't remember the last time a group of TFC forwards generated enough quality chances to score 4-5 goals on the road. As for the back four, it's really a shame that Cann and Williams are out for the season, but I think our remaining group of defenders can be effective if Winter utilizes the right combination. Perhaps it's worth giving Morgan and Henry a legitimate shot at this point, as both were solid last night.

Can't disagree with anything but your nickname.

Living with 2 Man United supporters is enough to drive me nuts. I've had to watch all these silly friendlies which is really hard to do when you have to root for New England or Chicago knowing a victory, even in a friendly is about as likely as TFC making the playoffs.

I'll keep the blue flag flying high.

Pookie
07-24-2011, 04:30 PM
What is the cap hit these days per designated player? The only thing I could find suggested 335k per dp.

335k but it can be bought down with allocation money to about $170k.

Pookie
07-24-2011, 04:32 PM
That's a very.. uh... interesting imaginary phone call you had there, man.

- Scott

Imaginary phone calls are sort of like my wife telling me about her dream she had the night before.

So, um, this never happened right? You are effectively just telling me a fictitious story that you had some emotional reaction to? Yeah... um, I'm going to go golfing.

West220Side
07-24-2011, 04:40 PM
Stupid off-topic question
I can't remember Cann getting injured. Like, no recollection. When was his last game for us? How did he get injured? I can't remember a thing.

For some reason away v Edmonton comes to mind. I'm probably wrong.

All I remember about Cann this season is Winter playing him at leftback in the first game.

Just when and how did he get injured.

Pachuco
07-24-2011, 05:03 PM
Stupid off-topic question
I can't remember Cann getting injured. Like, no recollection. When was his last game for us? How did he get injured? I can't remember a thing.

For some reason away v Edmonton comes to mind. I'm probably wrong.

All I remember about Cann this season is Winter playing him at leftback in the first game.

Just when and how did he get injured.

I think it was in practice no? we just heard about it one day next thing you know he's done for the season. I could be wrong but that's how I remember it. Seems so long ago already.

tiberius
07-24-2011, 05:15 PM
I think it was in practice no? we just heard about it one day next thing you know he's done for the season. I could be wrong but that's how I remember it. Seems so long ago already.

Around the end of May, in practice his foot got caught in a gap in the astroturf and he tore the ACL in his knee...

J .
07-24-2011, 05:18 PM
I hate to break it to people, but its the tactics not the players costing the team. You cannot defend with only 2-3 players in MLS, you cant have attacking full backs and not drop your CMs back to cover.

There is a reason why TFC has conceeded more goals already, than it did in all of last year.

Tactics.


That said some players looked horrible out there. Zavarise and Santos in particular looked horrible. I think Iro was playing a lot deeper than other players and it looks like there was miscommunication (poor leadership) on the back line. Im not giving up on Iro just yet, but in two games his footballing IQ appears to be on the low side. Sigi tactics made him look like an All-star... Schmid > Winter.

Darlofletch
07-24-2011, 06:47 PM
I hate to break it to people, but its the tactics not the players costing the team. You cannot defend with only 2-3 players in MLS, you cant have attacking full backs and not drop your CMs back to cover.

There is a reason why TFC has conceeded more goals already, than it did in all of last year.

Tactics.


That said some players looked horrible out there. Zavarise and Santos in particular looked horrible. I think Iro was playing a lot deeper than other players and it looks like there was miscommunication (poor leadership) on the back line. Im not giving up on Iro just yet, but in two games his footballing IQ appears to be on the low side. Sigi tactics made him look like an All-star... Schmid > Winter.

yep, big difference between playing alongside chad marshall in a well organised team, and all of a sudden being the man in an ever changing defence. I'm not ready to write him off, but i think he'd be a good player to have as your 2nd best cb, next to someone with poise, exeperience and ball handling abilities. not sure he's cut out to do what we're asking of him. he's probably about as good as we could have got with the assets we had left so I won't call it a bad trade, but we desperately need a CB better than him.

Couchy81
07-24-2011, 07:54 PM
Just watched the game in 6. Looked great offensively from the clips shown, Johnson is pretty awesome, well worth the price imo. Koevermans isnt even match fit and is still a threat, that is also a positive sign. Just need to straighten out the defensive end and we will be doing much better in the short term.

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2011, 08:15 PM
Yeah, the one big positive to draw from this game, is that Johnson and Koevermans appear to have greatly improved our offense.

I can't help but wonder what kind of team we would be, if we could just solve our back four for a couple of years at least. Winter really needs to do some major work back there - get rid of Harden, put Borman on the bench, and get one or two solid defenders to start along side Ecks. I also think Yourassowsky does a pretty good job at LB.

- Scott

Darlofletch
07-24-2011, 09:01 PM
Yeah, the one big positive to draw from this game, is that Johnson and Koevermans appear to have greatly improved our offense.

I can't help but wonder what kind of team we would be, if we could just solve our back four for a couple of years at least. Winter really needs to do some major work back there - get rid of Harden, put Borman on the bench, and get one or two solid defenders to start along side Ecks. I also think Yourassowsky does a pretty good job at LB.

- Scott

that would have been fun to find out, but people didn't like "prekiball" and he didn't fit in with the rest of the tfc country club, so as soon as we had an injury riddled losing streak (during which we still weren't letting goals in, it was only the offence that failed when relying on ibbe and obi) he was let go. would have been interesting. and it's not really about players as we had gargan and garcia seeing a lot of time at full back that year.

I should let it go, I really should, but it still pisses me off.

TFC Cityboy
07-24-2011, 09:55 PM
didn't see the match as I was camping,but it sounds like a bog standard TFC road trip shitshow.
4-3-3 only works with the correct player personnel or if the 2 widemen in the front 3 drop back to create a 4-5-1 when we are defending. I've been saying this since March.

I like what Winter, De Klerk are trying to do (long term), but, for fuxache, this formation is not working right now. Get your heads out of your asses and adjust the formation before we become even more of a laughing stock.

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2011, 10:16 PM
that would have been fun to find out, but people didn't like "prekiball" and he didn't fit in with the rest of the tfc country club, so as soon as we had an injury riddled losing streak (during which we still weren't letting goals in, it was only the offence that failed when relying on ibbe and obi) he was let go. would have been interesting. and it's not really about players as we had gargan and garcia seeing a lot of time at full back that year.

I should let it go, I really should, but it still pisses me off.

I'm with you on that man. I argued all last season that Preki should have been given more of a chance, just like I'm arguing it with Winter now.

Preki was always set up to fail.

- Scott

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 10:40 PM
I'm with you on that man. I argued all last season that Preki should have been given more of a chance, just like I'm arguing it with Winter now.

Preki was always set up to fail.

- Scott

Not to take things off topic but Preki had lots of room and was initially given lots of confidence to do what he wanted. His departure was solely caused by his foolish games and shenanigans including some behaviour that caused management to step in sooner than they wanted. Preki failed himself, there is nobody else to blame. He could even have survived Mo's departure but in fact it was his mistakes that sealed Mo's fate.

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2011, 10:45 PM
Oh man, we are SO not going to argue about Preki, haha. :D

- Scott

denime
07-24-2011, 10:47 PM
Not to take things off topic but Preki had lots of room and was initially given lots of confidence to do what he wanted. His departure was solely caused by his foolish games and shenanigans including some behaviour that caused management to step in sooner than they wanted. Preki failed himself, there is nobody else to blame. He could even have survived Mo's departure but in fact it was his mistakes that sealed Mo's fate.

Are you trying to say that backstabing from Dasovic,Me Ro and JDG has nothing to do with it?Give me break,however they all got what they asked for and thats why 2 are gone and the 3rd is on way out .

ManUtd4ever
07-24-2011, 10:48 PM
It appeared as though the final nail in Preki's coffin was his arbitrary decision to effectively banish Nick Dasovic from the team, and reassign him to scouting duties.

ag futbol
07-24-2011, 10:55 PM
didn't see the match as I was camping,but it sounds like a bog standard TFC road trip shitshow.
4-3-3 only works with the correct player personnel or if the 2 widemen in the front 3 drop back to create a 4-5-1 when we are defending. I've been saying this since March.

Well either that or you have a crap load of talent and all three of your forwards relentlessly pressure the other team when they lose possession.

But in terms of the MLS version of the 4-3-3 other teams are employing you are absolutely right. They convert it quickly to something more defensive when they have to.

Our tactics are very aggressive by comparison.

ensco
07-24-2011, 11:00 PM
I thought Preki was fired not for onfield reasons particularly, but for marketing reasons (they needed a story for the SSH renewals that were pushed up because of the MLS Cup) and for ethical reasons (he had some of the same issues as Mo in terms of agent relationships). The team was boring, but wasn't that bad under Preki.

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 11:05 PM
Oh no the Preki story goes way deeper. I'm talking Soap Opera deep. And it was more than whiney coaches and players Denime. I know he was your boy but Preki wrote his own pink slip.

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2011, 11:06 PM
Spill the beans Roogsy. Now I'm interested.

- Scott

Roogsy
07-24-2011, 11:13 PM
I can't because some affected in Preki's shenanigans are still with TFC. If the only negative was his record I think Preki would have survived the season and started 2011 with the team. But crashing out of playoff contention provided the opportunity for management to get rid of him which they wanted to do for more than simply a disappointing record.

nickio
07-24-2011, 11:24 PM
I think some are forgetting the advantages of 4-3-3. The high potential is that TFC can become a high scoring team with the right players, something that just doesn't happen on any of Preki's teams.

It's like if Koevermans scored that 1st opportunity, I think it would be a completely different game. Who knows, with a little confidence TFC can explode with goals.

By the way, the 4th Goal was entirely on Viator. He stopped marking his man in the end and Eck's was left with 2 guys to cover. Based on the little we've seen of him, it's not looking good. That goal pissed me off the most, at the time it felt as if TFC had a fightin chance even with 3-1. But 4-1?... that's asking too much.

As far as Mentality, Forwards play much better when they know that Defense are doing there job. When we let in the goals it felt like the team was drained mentally.

For TFC to win any games, they just HAVE to score first.

Max_TO
07-24-2011, 11:44 PM
I still see Frei asking for a trade , perhaps to a team looking to make a good playoff run .

In there madness they will probily trade Plata too

Shakes McQueen
07-25-2011, 12:26 AM
I still see Frei asking for a trade , perhaps to a team looking to make a good playoff run .

In there madness they will probily trade Plata too

I love Frei, but people continue to hugely overrate him.

- Scott

TFCRegina
07-25-2011, 12:31 AM
I love Frei, but people continue to hugely overrate him.

- Scott

Frei, up until Frings came in, was the most complete player on the squad. But I agree. He's good but he's not great.

That's not to take away anything from him, but you don't see European squads knocking down the door.

Shakes McQueen
07-25-2011, 01:01 AM
Frei, up until Frings came in, was the most complete player on the squad. But I agree. He's good but he's not great.

That's not to take away anything from him, but you don't see European squads knocking down the door.

Absolutely. I think Frei is a good keeper, and definitely one of my favourite Reds - I'd love to see the kid spend his entire career in Toronto.

I just think the occasional comments about how he's definitely destined for Europe, or will ask for a trade for a contender, are over-inflating his worth. He's not even the best keeper in MLS, without considering the hundreds of other footy leagues worldwide with similar talent.

Everything I've seen or heard from Frei, suggests a player who desperately wants to be part of a winning team in Toronto. Considering how transparent every locker room issue with TFC has been up to now, we've heard remarkably little about Frei

- Scott

Whoop
07-25-2011, 01:49 AM
I agree, but Frei has the advantage of a European passport.

TFCRegina
07-25-2011, 02:02 AM
I agree, but Frei has the advantage of a European passport.

With a country that's not part of the European Union.

Whoop
07-25-2011, 02:05 AM
Good point. LOL

Shakes McQueen
07-25-2011, 03:29 AM
One point for TFCRegina, LOL! :D

- Scott

Oldtimer
07-25-2011, 07:02 AM
My suspicion is that Winter didn't really value this game, he realizes that you really can't do well in both the CCL and the league, and given that the playoffs are almost impossible, he's decided to concentrate on the CCL.

My evidence is him playing the kids in this game. Also leaving Plata and Martina behind.

nickio
07-25-2011, 07:23 AM
My suspicion is that Winter didn't really value this game, he realizes that you really can't do well in both the CCL and the league, and given that the playoffs are almost impossible, he's decided to concentrate on the CCL.

My evidence is him playing the kids in this game. Also leaving Plata and Martina behind.

Not sure about Martina but Plata was out due to passport issues.

Also, I noticed someone questioning JDG's status. He is indeed injured and is training seperately, I know - I saw it for my self. There is no behind politics regarding his playing time.

Pookie
07-25-2011, 08:35 AM
I wonder how successful Preki would have been if he didn't have a player or two of distinction, leader(s) if you will, missing curfews and the like?

Kilgore Trout
07-25-2011, 11:28 AM
Good point. LOL
A Swiss passport is as good as an EU passport.

tiberius
07-25-2011, 09:09 PM
I wonder how successful Preki would have been if he didn't have a player or two of distinction, leader(s) if you will, missing curfews and the like?
There were two very distinct markers in Priki's short stint that caused his ultimate demise - by both insiders and outsiders (fans). Trading Sam Cronin and trading Carl Robinson - at that point EVERYONE knew there was something terribly, terribly wrong with the club and almost everyone came to the conclusion he was an utter asshole. I remember this so distictly - that sickening feeling that there was something so wrong, and the growing and ultimate conclusion that Priki was from the dark side. Fuck curfews - it was these two acts that sewed that asshole's fate to swim with the fishes alonside Mo fucking Johnson. Priki ball my ass - it was "Priki idiot" that did himself in.:hump: