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DangerRed
07-21-2011, 01:04 PM
I'm currently in Belize, but as i was flying out of Toronto on Saturday morning, I bumped into Alan Gordon. Said I'm a huge fan, asked about his trade. He's a great guy, very cool and very nice and he was VERY candid about his short time at TFC. Take this for what you will, I'm sure some of this is sour grapes, but it's definitely interesting insight.

He said he believes he was traded because he got into a fight with a trainer over being forced to play too much too sun while recovering from injury. He said he was barely supposed to play in the Houston game, for instance.

As far as coaching goes, I said to him that to me, Winter resembles Ruud Gullit. He said: "I've played for both of them. They're the exact same person."

He said the coaches have done a horrible job explaining the "system' to the players and added that many just don't get it. He said they do a lot of passing drills in practice, more than he's ever seen, but when a player asks a question about how the system works beyond just "attacking, possession-oriented football," there are no answers. Players are just running around in confusion.

He said he thinks Winter is completely lost, in way over his head, and that he feels bad for the fans and the supporters because this team is not going to be very successful any time soon.

I wrapped up my chat with him by wishing him good luck, but asking him to take it easy when TFC plays San Jose next. :D

zamperina
07-21-2011, 01:11 PM
If what he saying is true then Winter/De Klerk will be gone by this time next season and Mariner will bring in his guys to coach this team.

Detroit_TFC
07-21-2011, 01:12 PM
OY VEY :facepalm:

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 01:16 PM
I'm currently in Belize, but as i was flying out of Toronto on Saturday morning, I bumped into Alan Gordon. Said I'm a huge fan, asked about his trade. He's a great guy, very cool and very nice and he was VERY candid about his short time at TFC. Take this for what you will, I'm sure some of this is sour grapes, but it's definitely interesting insight.

He said he believes he was traded because he got into a fight with a trainer over being forced to play too much too sun while recovering from injury. He said he was barely supposed to play in the Houston game, for instance.

As far as coaching goes, I said to him that to me, Winter resembles Ruud Gullit. He said: "I've played for both of them. They're the exact same person."

He said the coaches have done a horrible job explaining the "system' to the players and added that many just don't get it. He said they do a lot of passing drills in practice, more than he's ever seen, but when a player asks a question about how the system works beyond just "attacking, possession-oriented football," there are no answers. Players are just running around in confusion.

He said he thinks Winter is completely lost, in way over his head, and that he feels bad for the fans and the supporters because this team is not going to be very successful any time soon.

I wrapped up my chat with him by wishing him good luck, but asking him to take it easy when TFC plays San Jose next. :D


Consdering other players (some who are still with TFC, some who are gone) have told me many of the same things, I am inclined to believe that most of this is true. I have made the Gullit comparison before, I think it's a risk that many TFC fans are simply ignoring because it's not a pleasant thought.

We have lots of new players, some with excellent quality. But until the coaching issue is addressed, I think we will underperform. I doubt we will continue to be bottom of the league, but I think poor coaching will keep us simply as an average team (with one of the highest payrolls in the league) as opposed to a contending team.

Whoop
07-21-2011, 01:19 PM
Goes further back...

Has any former TFC player ever said anything positive about TFC upon leaving?

menefreghista
07-21-2011, 01:23 PM
Goes further back...

Has any former TFC player ever said anything positive about TFC upon leaving?

Just to add to that, Petersen recently tweeted something about it being nice to be treated like an adult again.

Danger Red's story isn't shocking.

The one thing the recent moves have done is give the management team a bit more slack for the next few weeks. But I do think if this team doesn't improve its play and win some games down the stretch there is a threat that Winter will just give up.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 01:26 PM
It's a classic trick of deception. Entertain us with these signings so that fans are distracted from the fundamental problems of this team.

Detroit_TFC
07-21-2011, 01:26 PM
...I think it's a risk that many TFC fans are simply ignoring because it's not a pleasant thought.
...


True. It's crossed my mind, but its a dead end because what can you do? I disagree about them only lasting a year, though, unless they give up and leave on their own. Ruud was forced out because Leiwicke's hand was forced, by Beckham's people, the league, etc etc etc (see the Wahl book). No such forces like that are in play here.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-21-2011, 01:26 PM
uhhhh
well the prob is if it is the main problem its going to surface again so i dont know that its really that big an illusion.

The players that left arent exactly quality guys in fairness. Regardless if the 'system' doesnt work, it doesnt work and itll be found out.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 01:28 PM
I too think that they're pretty safe for now. Considering what it took Anselmi to fire MoJo, I doubt anyone's job is in danger anytime soon. Doesn't mean fans are going to get the results we deserve.

MFG1
07-21-2011, 01:30 PM
Goes further back...

Has any former TFC player ever said anything positive about TFC upon leaving?


has there been any reason to be positive for ANY of these players other than they got out?

Oldtimer
07-21-2011, 01:30 PM
Time will tell if Gordon's assessment is correct.

Being burned by Gullitt may have coloured his perspective somewhat. Anyway, we'll see by next year.

If there is a problem, I doubt Tom A. will wait 4 years again.

Blazer
07-21-2011, 01:30 PM
This team has looked more disoriented than ever before and they’ve been this way all season. Much of Gordon’s account with you would make sense at least, sour grapes or otherwise.

Save for a few individual performances that Winter really had no control over and can’t take credit for, his team has been the laughing stalk of MLS.

This organization is in shambles right now and if we chose to believe that the players are as confused as Gordon suggested above, you would also have no problem believing this current regime has no immediate or foreseeable solution.

Drop season ticket prices TFC. You’ve lost fan loyalty and soon you’ll be losing many more STHers alike.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 01:33 PM
I've likened the arrival of Koevermans and Frings to splashing on cologne instead of taking a shower. Sure you don't smell like you did before, but it doesn't mean it's because you're clean.

TFC may not "stink" like it did before, but I wouldn't want to look at what the shirt collars look like.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-21-2011, 01:35 PM
I too think that they're pretty safe for now. Considering what it took Anselmi to fire MoJo, I doubt anyone's job is in danger anytime soon. Doesn't mean fans are going to get the results we deserve.

yeah i dont see them firing him til at least midway next season, which seems fair enough. Lack of results is definitely not going to endear the club/mlse anymore than it already is.


has there been any reason to be positive for ANY of these players other than they got out?

HAHAHA nope

rocker
07-21-2011, 01:38 PM
It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.

ag futbol
07-21-2011, 01:39 PM
man, this really is a broken record with these guys leaving.

I'm not going to even bother typing anything negative, just hope for the best because if this is a bad as they make it out to be: we're fucked.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-21-2011, 01:40 PM
It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy.


essentially what i meant by look at the players that went out but way more articulate

backbeat
07-21-2011, 01:42 PM
Aron Winter had been at one team (Ajax) for 6 years coaching - if he was so poor at coaching i really don't think he would have lasted that long - i think this is way over-blown by players getting moved out and fans who liked the players leaving - either way with voices like Frings, if this has any merit, we'll hear about it pretty soon as he surely wouldn't put up with it.

rocker
07-21-2011, 01:44 PM
essentially what i meant by look at the players that went out but way more articulate

ya, and that's why I think Peterson tweeted that "child" comment.

Peterson is not skilled enough or cerebral enough to play in such a system. So they probably were trying to explain things he's never heard of (it'd be like trying to teach a 25 year old algebra for the first time). Maybe that comes across as condescending to an MLSer who grew up in a completely different system.

Beyond this controversy, I've noticed something.... Backe said he's trying to do a proper style from Europe but that it's hard when playing against MLS teams that don't do that. Tom Soehn fired Tatot Tots because Tator wasn't doing that style -- Soehn wants to keep it on the ground and play the right way.... yet Vancouver has a shit record like TFC. I think there's a major clash of soccer culture going on right now in MLS.

Beach_Red
07-21-2011, 01:47 PM
So this has pretty much been an entire season of the coaches complaining the players aren't good enough and the players complaining about the coaches.

So, business as usual at TFC?

Pigfynn
07-21-2011, 01:48 PM
Aron Winter had been at one team (Ajax) for 6 years coaching - if he was so poor at coaching i really don't think he would have lasted that long - i think this is way over-blown by players getting moved out and fans who liked the players leaving - either way with voices like Frings, if this has any merit, we'll hear about it pretty soon as he surely wouldn't put up with it.

No way man, Ajax hires inept coaches to run their world famous youth teams all the time and then keep them on for years on end.

^sarcasm

It could never be that lazy, unskilled American players just don't/can't get it. It's because the dutch guys are all the same, everyone of them underestimates our powerhouse league and suddenly forget how to tell eleven guys how to play a system they've played since they were 3yrs old.

^ more sarcasm

Oldtimer
07-21-2011, 01:51 PM
It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.

The voice of reason.

Strikers
07-21-2011, 01:53 PM
It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.


I agree with this statement, can't teach an old dog new tricks. The Acadmey will be huge in the future and that's why I think Winter was brought in. Ajax is arguably the best academy in the world.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 01:54 PM
Aron Winter had been at one team (Ajax) for 6 years coaching - if he was so poor at coaching i really don't think he would have lasted that long - i think this is way over-blown by players getting moved out and fans who liked the players leaving - either way with voices like Frings, if this has any merit, we'll hear about it pretty soon as he surely wouldn't put up with it.

It depends what the purpose of the Ajax academy was. Players in the system coming up through the various levels would already be familiar with the "system" and thus he had no need to teach it, simply to apply it and identify players that would excel.

That is a far different task from the one he was brought here to do. It is a leap of faith to suggest that running the junior squad at Ajax would translate well into running a senior squad in MLS. A different set of skills would be required. If someone would identify instances in his position at Ajax where he showed tactical acumen, player development and team education, and getting the most out of working with less, I could understand. But we haven't seen anything of the sort, and yet everyone points to his job at Ajax as being impressive but nobody explains how his job at Ajax translates into benefits for us in MLS.

If I am building a house, I don't want the contractor that built the CN Tower, I want a home builder that knows the intricacies and stylings of building something like a home. Right people for the the job. That's fundamentally my problem with Winter and been the achilles heel of MLSE and TFC since this team got off the ground. We still haven't learned that lesson.

Oldtimer
07-21-2011, 01:58 PM
Right people for the the job. That's fundamentally my problem with Winter and been the achilles heel of MLSE and TFC since this team got off the ground. We still haven't learned that lesson.

so, Winter to run the academy... and to run the senior team, someone who knows the Dutch system and has been successful in MLS! Oh wait...

McBrace
07-21-2011, 02:01 PM
How is Winter to get familiar with the MLS if he doesn't get the chance to be part of it?

Ivan
07-21-2011, 02:02 PM
It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.

I'd like to see that ESPN article....tried searching and can't find it. Anyone have the link?

menefreghista
07-21-2011, 02:04 PM
How is Winter to get familiar with the MLS if he doesn't get the chance to be part of it?

Or maybe considering our previous 4 seasons we don't hire someone and let him learn on the job, again?

McBrace
07-21-2011, 02:05 PM
I thought Preki had MLS Experience?? Look how that panned out..

Beach_Red
07-21-2011, 02:05 PM
I agree with this statement, can't teach an old dog new tricks. The Acadmey will be huge in the future and that's why I think Winter was brought in. Ajax is arguably the best academy in the world.


It better be, with only 8 international spots on the roster the rest of the players will have to be from the academy ;).

jabbronies
07-21-2011, 02:09 PM
The same could be said for Jason Kries. Retired in 07 and was put in charge of RSL. Did nothing in 07, but made the playoffs in 08 and 09 - then won the championship in 10.

Not saying Winter is Kries - but so far I haven't been upset with any of the moves "he" has made. I say "he" because I know Mariner had a hand in those moves as well. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for the now. we'll see how the season ends and what he has set up, but come 2011 - he's got til May to show me this team has arrived and is for real.

Technorgasm
07-21-2011, 02:09 PM
3 wins.

Ageroo
07-21-2011, 02:10 PM
How is Winter to get familiar with the MLS if he doesn't get the chance to be part of it?

+1


I thought Preki had MLS Experience?? Look how that panned out..

+2


I am neutral on Winter and Co......like everyone I want to see him succeed. The thing that in my mind seems to differ between Winter and managers past....is that he really seems as if he is given the power to go out and make moves to try to improve the club. The purse strings are not tied and he can dump whoever he wants whenever it seems. I don't think any manager has been given such a long rope in the past.

This long rope may come back to haunt him, but at least the club is giving him the reigns to run things.

Alonso
07-21-2011, 02:12 PM
Consdering other players (some who are still with TFC, some who are gone) have told me many of the same things, I am inclined to believe that most of this is true. I have made the Gullit comparison before, I think it's a risk that many TFC fans are simply ignoring because it's not a pleasant thought.

We have lots of new players, some with excellent quality. But until the coaching issue is addressed, I think we will underperform. I doubt we will continue to be bottom of the league, but I think poor coaching will keep us simply as an average team (with one of the highest payrolls in the league) as opposed to a contending team.


This MAY, be true, but what recourse does TFC really have? Surely we have to let him play out his tenure, if for no other reason than if TFC cut Winter we will look like asses who can't see a plan through because when times are tough we start pointing fingers.

FO is in a tough spot if this is true.

menefreghista
07-21-2011, 02:12 PM
That is a far different task from the one he was brought here to do. It is a leap of faith to suggest that running the junior squad at Ajax would translate well into running a senior squad in MLS. A different set of skills would be required. If someone would identify instances in his position at Ajax where he showed tactical acumen, player development and team education, and getting the most out of working with less, I could understand. But we haven't seen anything of the sort, and yet everyone points to his job at Ajax as being impressive but nobody explains how his job at Ajax translates into benefits for us in MLS.

This!

Coaching an established Euorpean youth team and coaching a full professional team in the weirdest 1st division in the world are two totally different jobs.

I actually wonder if there is a communication problem. How strong is Winter's English? I have a hard time believing the players are too stupid to learn his 'system'. Maybe not talented enough, but that's another story.

How is it every other MLS team can find players to play and perform well in this league, except TFC?

backbeat
07-21-2011, 02:13 PM
It depends what the purpose of the Ajax academy was. Players in the system coming up through the various levels would already be familiar with the "system" and thus he had no need to teach it, simply to apply it and identify players that would excel.

That is a far different task from the one he was brought here to do. It is a leap of faith to suggest that running the junior squad at Ajax would translate well into running a senior squad in MLS. A different set of skills would be required. If someone would identify instances in his position at Ajax where he showed tactical acumen, player development and team education, and getting the most out of working with less, I could understand. But we haven't seen anything of the sort, and yet everyone points to his job at Ajax as being impressive but nobody explains how his job at Ajax translates into benefits for us in MLS.

If I am building a house, I don't want the contractor that built the CN Tower, I want a home builder that knows the intricacies and stylings of building something like a home. Right people for the the job. That's fundamentally my problem with Winter and been the achilles heel of MLSE and TFC since this team got off the ground. We still haven't learned that lesson.

he was assistant coach of the 1st team at Ajax (a major team in europe) for 3 years not simply 'running a junior squad'

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
07-21-2011, 02:13 PM
You pass in practice...cause the team can barely put 3 consecutive passes in a game..

4-3-3.....system...if you cant pass the ball it will never work....as for the system....you need to have a high level of tallent on your team...thats why it will never work in toronto...players such as Gordon...just dont have the tallent..along with most players on tfc...

Azerban
07-21-2011, 02:13 PM
3 wins.

Yup.

Whoop
07-21-2011, 02:15 PM
I'd like to see that ESPN article....tried searching and can't find it. Anyone have the link?

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/6760623/soccer-toronto-fc-manager-aron-winter-mission-mls

Red Skies At Night
07-21-2011, 02:16 PM
He said the coaches have done a horrible job explaining the "system' to the players and added that many just don't get it.

Wow, the "system" isn't rocket science... it's not even hard algebra.

Pass and move, pass and move... it's the fundamentals for any good footballer. If the players can't grasp the notion of moving into space when our team has possession (and from watching them stand around like pylons all year they apparently can't) then I think the problem is with the players not the coaches. Particularly when they teach it as a system, "when #7 has the ball, #8 should be here, #6 should be moving to here, etc" rather than an ad-hoc set of commands.

I'm hoping the Academy produces a class of footballer with a decent footy IQ, because it seems it might be in short supply in North American players (I think our foreign players get the "system" but just aren't very skilled).

menefreghista
07-21-2011, 02:16 PM
3 wins.

In 22 games.

Gazza
07-21-2011, 02:20 PM
Lazy, inept, unskilled and overpaid MLS players with entitlement and accountability issues should share half the blame.

Most of the players who were "turned over" will not receive the same opportunity to be impact players in this league. They failed, they were shipped out. Plain and simple.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 02:22 PM
he was assistant coach of the 1st team at Ajax (a major team in europe) for 3 years not simply 'running a junior squad'

Maybe someone can verify this. Wikipedia has him as the coach of the reserve team not the senior squad. Any reference as an assistant on the senior squad?

As for using Preki as an example of "MLS experience" this is called argument by selective observation where you count the hits and forget the misses when discussing evidence that supports your argument. Bruce Arena and Sigi Schmid are both coaches with extensive MLS experience, do they not count because one coach didn't work out? Preki should not be used to slam every coach that has worked in MLS.

Whoop
07-21-2011, 02:23 PM
he was assistant coach of the 1st team at Ajax (a major team in europe) for 3 years not simply 'running a junior squad'

Nope.

He started of as the assistant of Ajax A1 which essentially their U18/19 (best of the academy) team and play in a national league and then moved on to be the head coach of Ajax A2 which is like their second U18 team who play in a regional league.

Jong Ajax is the reserve team, U23.

So no, he never coached or was part of Ajax's senior team coaching staff.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 02:27 PM
I was hoping you'd answer Vic, I knew you'd know the answer.

Any opinion on how well he did with Jong Ajax and what their "raison d'etre" is?

Thrillos
07-21-2011, 02:31 PM
This is how I see it. The players that have been traded (Gordon, Attakora, Peterson, Tchani) were all "injured" very often this season thus far. To the point of playing one game and becoming "injured" again, but they never actually pulled up limp on the field or anything during gameplay. They were just all of a sudden back on the injured list.

If you ask me, Winter was cleaning out the lazy complainers and I am glad the players that left did leave.

If you look at the example of Cann, he couldn't pass the ball accurately if his life depended on it all last season and the beginning of this season. It was only a couple months under Winter/Klerk until he actually looked comfortable with the ball at his feet and probably our best CB until his ACL tear. To me the limiting factor in that transformation is Winter/Klerk.

There has to be a reason Gordon spent less than a full season at Chivas and only a few months here. And my guess it has to do with him and not Winter and Co.

ag futbol
07-21-2011, 02:33 PM
Ok, I’ll break my moratorium on negativity to say a couple of things:

1) the coaching staff traded for Gordon – I hope they find MLS players that are better for their system than the ones they previously acquired.

2) Understanding something and impressing it on other people are two different things – can he teach? Does he understand his audience? I think our success will ultimately tell the story. People calling 4-3-3 impractical are missing the point. It is possible, but it has to be done by the right person.

3) Youth academy – could probably save our bacon, if done properly, in five or six years! There is no way you are going to even have enough supplementary players out of that system anytime soon. In other words: don’t count on it.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 02:34 PM
But here's a question Thrillos...is what was traded done because they are "lazy complainers" or was it because of personality conflicts with Winter?

What evidence is there that the players stated in your post were "lazy"? Or "complainers"? Or that simply how we justify it because Winter chose to send them off?

This board is so very schizophrenic it almost gives me whiplash. One day we are praising Gordon and bemoaning his injury as the key factor in us not scoring and the next day he's lazy and useless and we're happy he's gone.

Again I point out the amount of faith we are placing in "Winter and Co" without any real evidence that they know what they are doing.

McBrace
07-21-2011, 02:35 PM
Maybe someone can verify this. Wikipedia has him as the coach of the reserve team not the senior squad. Any reference as an assistant on the senior squad?

As for using Preki as an example of "MLS experience" this is called argument by selective observation where you count the hits and forget the misses when discussing evidence that supports your argument. Bruce Arena and Sigi Schmid are both coaches with extensive MLS experience, do they not count because one coach didn't work out? Preki should not be used to slam every coach that has worked in MLS.


I used Preki as an example because he was a coach for our club that had MLS experience, and had also been voted MLS coach of the year at one point.

Seems to me the Top level MLS coach aren't available for hire..

Am I impressed with our team, no. Am I willing to give it time, Yes.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 02:38 PM
Sometimes it's about timing McBrace.

I would love to have Bradley here, but he wasn't available at the end of 2010. But word is he might be done soon with the USMNT. Bad timing for us. Maybe we could have had him.

Whatever team picks him up (and my guess is that it will be a return to MLS), will have a solid coach with a competent resume that not many will question.

Winter is a gamble at the very least and people don't even want to admit it.

Whoop
07-21-2011, 02:40 PM
You can go right here. ;)

https://www.ajaxonlineacademy.com/

The academy teams always do well because they usually get the best players in the Netherlands. The goal of the academy, like any academy, is to get players to go to their senior team. During his time there were a few players that have gone on to contribute to the senior team like Siem de Jong (who just signed an extension today through to 2015) and Gregory van der Wiel.

However, having said that, Johan Cruyff has come in to revamp the structure of the club. Not so much the actual structure but get the deadwood out. This was done after Winter left though.

I think if he had done a better job though he would still be there though. Ajax likes to promote from within... if they can.

You look at a current coach like Frank de Boer, who took over half way through the year and led them to a title this season. He was coaching the A1 team when he joined van Marwijk's staff at the World Cup and then moved to Ajax.

Marco van Basten went from Jong Ajax to coaching the senior team.

Right now the rising star in the coaching ranks at Ajax is Dennis Bergkamp. He is poised to take over as the head coach down the road.

backbeat
07-21-2011, 02:42 PM
Nope.

He started of as the assistant of Ajax A1 which essentially their U18/19 (best of the academy) team and play in a national league and then moved on to be the head coach of Ajax A2 which is like their second U18 team who play in a regional league.

Jong Ajax is the reserve team, U23.

So no, he never coached or was part of Ajax's senior team coaching staff.

i stand corrected - thx!

Pookie
07-21-2011, 02:42 PM
It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.

Excellent post.

McBrace
07-21-2011, 02:44 PM
Sometimes it's about timing McBrace.

I would love to have Bradley here, but he wasn't available at the end of 2010. But word is he might be done soon with the USMNT. Bad timing for us. Maybe we could have had him.

Whatever team picks him up (and my guess is that it will be a return to MLS), will have a solid coach with a competent resume that not many will question.

Winter is a gamble at the very least and people don't even want to admit it.

So the FO should just sit around an wait for these guys to come availble? Then you would bitch that they waited to long to appoint a manager....

Somehow I don't think you'll ever be satisfied.....We could win by 5 and you'll argue that it should have been 6.

Gazza
07-21-2011, 02:47 PM
I didn't realize that when different people have different opinions which they express on different day in a public forum, it was considered schizophrenic.

Azerban
07-21-2011, 02:48 PM
We could win

bahahahaha



by 5

...


BAHAHAHAHAHA

menefreghista
07-21-2011, 02:48 PM
I would love to have Bradley here, but he wasn't available at the end of 2010. But word is he might be done soon with the USMNT. Bad timing for us. Maybe we could have had him.

This actually makes me wonder how Philadelphia landed Nowak. He was Bradley's assistant and left to take over the Union.

If I ran the team I would hire Bradley and dump Winter immediately. But I realize that won't happen.

I do think MLSE/TFC FO should have a list of candidates available, as I do consider Winter a risk to quit out of frustration.

ManUtd4ever
07-21-2011, 02:48 PM
Is anyone really surprised by Gordon's comments considering the club's overall performance this season?

It's been painfully obvious that several players were having difficulties executing the system that Winter is trying to implement. The question is, has the coaching staff been providing proper instruction in training, or is it a matter of certain players simply being incapable of grasping the nuances of the system because they lack the necessary football acumen.

One thing is certain. Winter has stressed that all of the players he has acquired were identified as players that will "fit into the system". Considering that there are now a handful of players leftover from the previous regime, the majority of players on the current roster should theoretically be capable of executing his tactical approach once the recent acquisitions are acclimated to their new surroundings.

TFC is predominantly Winter's team now. If the club does not exhibit tangible improvement and achieve results within the next few weeks, then I'm afraid Winter will have effectively run out of excuses.

Alonso
07-21-2011, 02:51 PM
But here's a question Thrillos...is what was traded done because they are "lazy complainers" or was it because of personality conflicts with Winter?

What evidence is there that the players stated in your post were "lazy"? Or "complainers"? Or that simply how we justify it because Winter chose to send them off?

This board is so very schizophrenic it almost gives me whiplash. One day we are praising Gordon and bemoaning his injury as the key factor in us not scoring and the next day he's lazy and useless and we're happy he's gone.

Again I point out the amount of faith we are placing in "Winter and Co" without any real evidence that they know what they are doing.

Dude, this board is not a single entity, people have opinions and they differ from eachother.

Your major problem in dealing with this board, other people and I imagine in life, is that you see everything as black and white when in reality its a whole lot of grey.

"we" "this board" are not in consensus about anything EVER.

So stop talking about the board in generalizations.

ArmenJBX
07-21-2011, 02:53 PM
It was obvious - and still is - which players on this team "get it" and which ones don't, and it all comes down to off-the-ball movement.

In the last game, Maicon Santos had a Neymar-like moment where he stopped the ball and began flicking his left foot around. Typical Brazilian trickery, no doubt, but while everyone was gawking at Maicon, the problem became Borman and Sturgis, the two players immediately surrounding him. Both stood in place. Neither supported him. Neither player thought to themselves "What is the bigger picture at this exact moment?" and instead stood firmly in place, instead of moving into an open position for Maicon to send the ball off to.

Linear thinking from MLS players has made the long-ball game easy, no doubt. When it's boot and shoot, there's not a lot of thinking involved, and yes, some teams do find success in this style of play. We've been unlucky to have not. However, the fundamentals of Winter's "system" is more logical than athletic.

Players must always think two moves ahead. When you're in a 4-3-3, so much of the play depends on the players around you. There's such a small amount of movement in midfield that not being properly positioned is brutal to the holding players. The space between the fullback and the winger is often blocked by the left or right midfielder used by most MLS teams in the standard 4-4-2. This is where Brek Shea completely dominated.

Players must be thinking on a more expansive level. The whole field must be their vision. Without the right movement into space, this system won't work. Imagine if Xavi and Iniesta stood around waiting instead of passing. Imagine if Dani Alves and Abidal never burst forward to receive the midfield pass again from Busquets. The ONLY player who is thinking this way thus far is Torsten Frings, a player who FINALLY slotted into the right position to allow the centerbacks to pass to the middle. Hopefully, with some time, he will not be alone.

Canary10
07-21-2011, 02:54 PM
Winter is a quality guy. I don't think either Frings or Koevermans would be here if he wasn't coaching this team.

That ESPN article is pretty interesting.

__wowza
07-21-2011, 02:56 PM
i think this is just a matter of opinion. a buddy of mine did an interview with jonathan deguzman for the underground that wasn't published (so they can do a two page spread on DVD releases for the week even though you can fucking find those anywhere and the papers only put out twice a month and the reviews were already a week late) he stated, in passing, when asking about the MLS that a lot of the players weren't used to what winter was trying to do, which we've all heard before.

then made a sliding remark right after that quoted him in saying that they weren't used to it "or just aren't willing to learn".

i've posted several times that a lot of the players we have (had) are MLS mainstays. i refuse to believe that a coach cannot communicate his tactics to players, and winter has gone on record of saying that people couldn't hack it, and those people will be replaced.



the jon deguz comment makes perfect sense in this context. winter brings in players that can fit (despite our backline issues) and as a result, a team with 5 new outfield players almost ecks out a tie against a team that's been on fucking fire as of late.

what was anyone expecting gordon to say? "i was the only one who could hack it and that made me prime trade-bait?"

__wowza
07-21-2011, 02:59 PM
I actually wonder if there is a communication problem. How strong is Winter's English? I have a hard time believing the players are too stupid to learn his 'system'. Maybe not talented enough, but that's another story.

How is it every other MLS team can find players to play and perform well in this league, except TFC?


http://i.imm.io/7mpb.jpeg

menefreghista
07-21-2011, 03:00 PM
what was anyone expecting gordon to say? "i was the only one who could hack it and that made me prime trade-bait?"


A lot of players usually just spout out platitudes about their previous teams.

TFC seems to have an inordinate number for former players have bad things to say.

maninb
07-21-2011, 03:02 PM
Sound like sour grapes to me...as has been mentioned, you don't last 6 years at Ajax because you're crap.....

Detroit_TFC
07-21-2011, 03:08 PM
A lot of players usually just spout out platitudes about their previous teams.

TFC seems to have an inordinate number for former players have bad things to say.

We have an inordinate number of former players.

menefreghista
07-21-2011, 03:10 PM
We have an inordinate number of former players.

LOL. That's a good point.

Alonso
07-21-2011, 03:10 PM
We have an inordinate number of former players.

^THIS

TFC Management are douchebags.

ag futbol
07-21-2011, 03:12 PM
Sound like sour grapes to me...as has been mentioned, you don't last 6 years at Ajax because you're crap.....
There are some pretty good coaches out there that flopped in MLS, a lot of which have way better qualifications than running a youth team at Ajax for 6 years.

It doesn't mean they are bad coaches, it just means they couldn't figure out how to run a rinky-dink MLS squad, which is what we're asking Winter to do here.

Thrillos
07-21-2011, 03:12 PM
i think this is just a matter of opinion. a buddy of mine did an interview with jonathan deguzman for the underground that wasn't published (so they can do a two page spread on DVD releases for the week even though you can fucking find those anywhere and the papers only put out twice a month and the reviews were already a week late) he stated, in passing, when asking about the MLS that a lot of the players weren't used to what winter was trying to do, which we've all heard before.

then made a sliding remark right after that quoted him in saying that they weren't used to it "or just aren't willing to learn".

i've posted several times that a lot of the players we have (had) are MLS mainstays. i refuse to believe that a coach cannot communicate his tactics to players, and winter has gone on record of saying that people couldn't hack it, and those people will be replaced.


the jon deguz comment makes perfect sense in this context. winter brings in players that can fit (despite our backline issues) and as a result, a team with 5 new outfield players almost ecks out a tie against a team that's been on fucking fire as of late.

what was anyone expecting gordon to say? "i was the only one who could hack it and that made me prime trade-bait?"


Bingo!! especially the last line.

Also, Roogsy I never said Gordon was great or praised him for his goals, so i'm not sure where you got that from.

I can guarantee that we have one of the best player management groups in the league (ie Winter, de Klerk, Mariner and training staff)

I am not going to continue arguing it on here because of the main reason why I have stopped posting on here. 98% of the people on here think they know what they are talking about when they have actually no clue, either about the game in general or their "inside" knowledge of the team.

Canary10
07-21-2011, 03:16 PM
We have an inordinate number of former players.

And didn't most of them play under Mo? How could they not have something bad to say?

Ivan
07-21-2011, 03:18 PM
http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/6760623/soccer-toronto-fc-manager-aron-winter-mission-mls

Cheers. Not a bad article and it was encouraging to read some of the comments -- there are some very knowledgeable MLS fans out there.

Personally, I think it's more sour grapes on Gordon's part and hope that Winter sticks around long enough to see the Academy graduate a few genuine starters and see some of his grand plan fall into place. F*ck it. Let's see this through.

Also, as Martina kinda points out, there are quality MLS teams succesfully playing possession football (Seattle, RSL) and not every team plays kick and run (NE, Chicago). Regardless of his possible/probable communication problems, Aron's focus on keeping it at your feet should be the coming trend for North American football and 4-3-3 might be the best way forward right now...plus what choice do we have other than Aron's way at least for the next couple of years? Please god not another management change.

Alonso
07-21-2011, 03:34 PM
Cheers. Not a bad article and it was encouraging to read some of the comments -- there are some very knowledgeable MLS fans out there.

Personally, I think it's more sour grapes on Gordon's part and hope that Winter sticks around long enough to see the Academy graduate a few genuine starters and see some of his grand plan fall into place. F*ck it. Let's see this through.

Also, as Martina kinda points out, there are quality MLS teams succesfully playing possession football (Seattle, RSL) and not every team plays kick and run (NE, Chicago). Regardless of his possible/probable communication problems, Aron's focus on keeping it at your feet should be the coming trend for North American football and 4-3-3 might be the best way forward right now...plus what choice do we have other than Aron's way at least for the next couple of years? Please god not another management change.

Gordon doesn't strike me as the type of person that would do that.

I think there are real issues with player and coach that he is highlighting here. Maybe Winter is rubbing players the wrong way and it could have a lot to do with his grasp of the English language.

It's hard for people that have never had to speak another language fluently for a job or for every day life to understand but a lot can be lost in translation. Especially undertones with raised voices and pitches, people can be rubbed the wrong way if they percieve a slight against them when in reality the person is just expressing themselves as they grew up to do.

I know from personal experience, Chileans, Mexicans, and Canadians deal with eachother very differently. (loud, abrassively, soft, understandingly, caringly)... they are all understood and interpreted differently.

prizby
07-21-2011, 03:40 PM
it took the carolina morace almost 18 months to get her team to play her style competently

Oldtimer
07-21-2011, 03:47 PM
Also, as Martina kinda points out, there are quality MLS teams succesfully playing possession football (Seattle, RSL) and not every team plays kick and run (NE, Chicago).

I hate to say it, but in the CCL, RSL was actually beautiful to watch. Free-flowing football, great passing and movement both on and off the ball. It took one's breath away at times. You could see how a team like that could possibly play in the World Club Cup.

And that from a team that once was unwatchable crap.

Ivan
07-21-2011, 03:49 PM
it took the carolina morace almost 18 months to get her team to play her style competently

Competently would've been nice.

backbeat
07-21-2011, 03:59 PM
Gordon doesn't strike me as the type of person that would do that.

I think there are real issues with player and coach that he is highlighting here. Maybe Winter is rubbing players the wrong way and it could have a lot to do with his grasp of the English language.

It's hard for people that have never had to speak another language fluently for a job or for every day life to understand but a lot can be lost in translation. Especially undertones with raised voices and pitches, people can be rubbed the wrong way if they percieve a slight against them when in reality the person is just expressing themselves as they grew up to do.

I know from personal experience, Chileans, Mexicans, and Canadians deal with eachother very differently. (loud, abrassively, soft, understandingly, caringly)... they are all understood and interpreted differently.

but frankly different languages are a common in football - from club teams to national teams with coaches and players - can't see that as a major issue these days

nimamalek
07-21-2011, 04:08 PM
Not sure how Winter is behind the scenes and how his system is working out, but based on personal choices and tactics I dont have confidence in his ability.

rocker
07-21-2011, 04:28 PM
Typical MLS players are not idiots... but if you grow up in substandard soccer training, which is often in college programs (and some of these guys were in college like 5-10 years ago, before the MLS renaissance), you can't just turn into a new player in a new system in 6 months thanks to a new coach. Winter can't turn Peterson or Gargan into a great player. Preki's method was simply to work with what ya got, don't expect to play the game the "beautiful way" and grind out results by bringing teams down to your level. A very practical approach. Not the "wrong" approach. It's one way of getting results in this growing league. Winter's is a different approach. We'll see if it works in time. Some teams have made something similar work out, but it wasn't fast, that's for sure.

I mean, aren't we all in agreement that a good academy system in the Euro mode is better than the college system at training players? And don't we agree you have to get those kids learning at a very young age if they are to be good players? None of the typical MLS players that have been on TFC would have grown up in that environment. Not their fault, but I would assume they need a lot of learning. Shit, I've even heard Hans Backe (who a lot of people like here) complain about the level of ability of the kids he's getting from America. He certainly isn't playing them regularly.

So really, I'm not surprised at these comments. It isn't proof that Winter is a bad coach yet. And with the academy developments, I hope they can be patient with it so that those kids coming up come to the senior team knowing the things that MLS players don't typically know.

Darlofletch
07-21-2011, 04:45 PM
very interesting comments.

I actually thought that Gordon was one of the more intelligent players we had, and that he looke like one of the few players who knew what he was doing, using his movement to create space and all. He's obviously not the most naturally talented player, but his intelligence enabled him to play above most of the others on the team.

Whoop
07-21-2011, 04:47 PM
The key difference between RSL and TFC is that Real Salt Lake has had a core group of guys to build around. From their 2008 to 2010 team they had around a dozen guys they identified/and or built around.

From TFC, if they are rebuilding, who are the dozen guys who will be around in 3-4 years, guys like Beckerman, Will Johnson, Jamison Olave, etc. And a couple of others like Findley and Movsisyan who have since moved on.

And most of the core guys were NCAA guys so they "change their spots" so to speak.

I guess like their MLSE brethern, they're going for a hybrid approach, a little from RSL and a little from NYRB.

Fact is they're still flying by the seat of their pants. They say they're rebuilding. Fine. But in the process of rebuilding they're get their asses handed to them and getting embarrassed. And in the process, not really learning anything. So they bring in reinforcements - older players, players that go against the grain of rebuilding - in order to not be embarrassed anymore.

So we'll see. While ultimately I will reserve finally judgement until the end of the season, if TFC can't salvage something in the CCL, this season has been unmitigated disaster.

Thomas
07-21-2011, 04:48 PM
Dude, this board is not a single entity, people have opinions and they differ from eachother.

Your major problem in dealing with this board, other people and I imagine in life, is that you see everything as black and white when in reality its a whole lot of grey.

"we" "this board" are not in consensus about anything EVER.

So stop talking about the board in generalizations.
+1 could not have said it better

backbeat
07-21-2011, 04:57 PM
The key difference between RSL and TFC is that Real Salt Lake has had a core group of guys to build around. From their 2008 to 2010 team they had around a dozen guys they identified/and or built around.

From TFC, if they are rebuilding, who are the dozen guys who will be around in 3-4 years, guys like Beckerman, Will Johnson, Jamison Olave, etc. And a couple of others like Findley and Movsisyan who have since moved on.

And most of the core guys were NCAA guys so they "change their spots" so to speak.

I guess like their MLSE brethern, they're going for a hybrid approach, a little from RSL and a little from NYRB.

Fact is they're still flying by the seat of their pants. They say they're rebuilding. Fine. But in the process of rebuilding they're get their asses handed to them and getting embarrassed. And in the process, not really learning anything. So they bring in reinforcements - older players, players that go against the grain of rebuilding - in order to not be embarrassed anymore.

So we'll see. While ultimately I will reserve finally judgement until the end of the season, if TFC can't salvage something in the CCL, this season has been unmitigated disaster.

TFC didn't get "their asses handed to them" by Dallas at all...we'll see what happens over the next number of games - but i agree that we are at a turning point now and i expect we will see a different, stronger team emerging. there is nothing wrong with supplementing the team with older experienced DP's while we rebuild and develop the academy....

Whoop
07-21-2011, 05:03 PM
TFC didn't get "their asses handed to them" by Dallas at all...we'll see what happens over the next number of games - but i agree that we are at a turning point now and i expect we will see a different, stronger team emerging. there is nothing wrong with supplementing the team with older experienced DP's while we rebuild and develop the academy....


I was talking about previous games where the team was "rebuilding".

I agree, the team did better last night to an extent. But bringing the guys they brought in goes against the grain of "rebuilding".

By point is which players that are <25 that TFC has that are building blocks for the future?

If you're rebuilding... fine... you go with the RSL model.

If you want results now... you go with the NYRB model.

It seems like they're switching gears half way through the season.

prizby
07-21-2011, 05:04 PM
Competently would've been nice.

i'm talking about the China friendly up to the world cup

beat china, won the concacaf gold cup, two draws with brazil, beat sweden, beat england, beat north korea

swan
07-21-2011, 05:11 PM
maybe the reason he makes them work on passing so much is because most of these players suck at it and can't put 3 passes together...

prizby
07-21-2011, 05:14 PM
The key difference between RSL and TFC is that Real Salt Lake has had a core group of guys to build around. From their 2008 to 2010 team they had around a dozen guys they identified/and or built around.


if you added up there top 20 salaries, counting morales as a DP salary and luis gil as generation addidas still (so not against the cap), they are just over 3million in salary...love to know how they can be 400k over the cap or how they got that much in allocation

AL-MO
07-21-2011, 05:17 PM
It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.

Some of our guys reported in from preseason in Charleston that Winter was having to teach guys which foot (or area) to pass the ball to and how to execute an offside trap.

His teachings may just be advanced for this lot....

Stryker
07-21-2011, 05:17 PM
I'm so sick of the whining from north American pro athletes. If your company gets bought out by another you have two choices, you ether adapt to new procedures and policies or you seek employment elsewhere. But so many athletes here think everyone else is supposed to adapt to them. It's ridiculous and asinine.
I'm glad to hear they do a lot of passing drills. Half the team can't pass to save their life. They can't hit a man running full pace, they have no zip and they have the touch of a pack of rapists.
Winter is trying to change the club from top to bottom into something far more than we've ever seen in a north American sports team. If you ain't on board with that then get the hell off at the next stop.

TFCin110
07-21-2011, 05:18 PM
I've always thought that it's really unprofessional how the players in MLS open up to the fans like this. When i've talked to athletes in other major sports they never rant about their employer like that.

ExiledRed
07-21-2011, 05:22 PM
Aron Winter had been at one team (Ajax) for 6 years coaching -if he was so poor at coaching i really don't think he would have lasted that long -

He wasnt coaching the first team, sorry but that's huge. Ajax released him and he was unemployed for 18 months. If he was so brilliant, maybe he wouldn't have been released, and maybe he would have been headhunted straight away.



i think this is way over-blown by players getting moved out and fans who liked the players leaving - either way with voices like Frings, if this has any merit, we'll hear about it pretty soon as he surely wouldn't put up with it.

Frings will have no problem with the system, and he probably has more in common with winter than with anybody on the squad. Dont expect a thing to change with regard to how winter treats players he seems to look down on.

ensco
07-21-2011, 05:25 PM
If you've read The Beckham Experiment, and you've followed MLS for a while, then you know that Alan Gordon is a really interesting, thoughtful, hugely-respected-around-the-league type person.

There is no interpretation of this other than that it's incredibly negative for Winter. Period. Suggesting it's just sour grapes is like saying the sky is purple.

(and god knows there's a fair bit of that going around, woe betide anyone who points out that the sky is blue, he's likely to be quickly told he's miserable and needs psychological help.)

Here's some more "blue sky" for you all lost in the endless happy talk in the postgame thread: we were badly outplayed and probably should have lost by more than a goal....we can't really build around Frings, he's clearly lost a step....Johnson looked no better than Peterson (maybe worse)....and Iro is not a player who is ever likely to be comfortable in a quick movement system, I know it's early on this last point, but cmon, he's the antithesis of a passing CB, what the heck is going on? (He also did not look like someone we should have traded the best prospect in the system for, why not sign 2 Viators?)

There's more where that came from but I'll wait for the first round of fire before going on....

prizby
07-21-2011, 05:28 PM
if you added up there top 20 salaries, counting morales as a DP salary and luis gil as generation addidas still (so not against the cap), they are just over 3million in salary...love to know how they can be 400k over the cap or how they got that much in allocation

correction :S...my first time adding was way off :S

1 Javier Morales $335,000.00
2 Alvaro Saborio $305,625.00
3 Kyle Beckerman $301,250.00
4 Jamison Olave $290,000.00
5 Will Johnson $225,000.00
6 Arturo Alvarez $201,922.50
7 Nat Borchers $169,058.50
8 Nick Rimando $158,250.00
9 Anthony Beltran $135,500.00
10 Chris Wingret $135,000.00
11 Andy Williams $99,225.00
12 Fabian Espindola $75,000.00
13 Cody Arnoux $71,650.00
14 Donny Toia $60,000.00
15 Kyle Reynish $58,304.00
16 Collen Warner $55,750.00
17 Paulo Araujo $53,520.00
18 Nelson Gonzalez $42,008.00
19 Jean Alexandre $42,000.00
20 Rauwshan McKenzie $42,000.00
$2,856,063.00
21 Tim Melia $42,000.00
22 Conor Chinn $32,604.00
23 Chris Schuler $32,600.00
24 Luis Gil $185,333.33

ExiledRed
07-21-2011, 05:39 PM
Winter is trying to change the club from top to bottom into something far more than we've ever seen in a north American sports team. If you ain't on board with that then get the hell off at the next stop.

a) trying and doing aren't always the same. Far more than weve ever seen in a north american sports team?..... I think a lot of teams are 'trying' to do the same thing, at the same time, and are doing much better.

b) Im staying on the train, now what? you gonna bitch at me some more cause i think the coach is out of his depth?

ExiledRed
07-21-2011, 05:44 PM
If you've read The Beckham Experiment, and you've followed MLS for a while, then you know that Alan Gordon is a really interesting, thoughtful, hugely-respected-around-the-league type person.

There is no interpretation of this other than that it's incredibly negative for Winter. Period. Suggesting it's just sour grapes is like saying the sky is purple.

(and god knows there's a fair bit of that going around, woe betide anyone who points out that the sky is blue, he's likely to be quickly told he's miserable and needs psychological help.)

Here's some more "blue sky" for you all lost in the endless happy talk in the postgame thread: we were badly outplayed and probably should have lost by more than a goal....we can't really build around Frings, he's clearly lost a step....Johnson looked no better than Peterson (maybe worse)....and Iro is not a player who is ever likely to be comfortable in a quick movement system, I know it's early on this last point, but cmon, he's the antithesis of a passing CB, what the heck is going on? (He also did not look like someone we should have traded the best prospect in the system for, why not sign 2 Viators?)

There's more where that came from but I'll wait for the first round of fire before going on....

hahaha dont hold back, unload that shit and let the flies feast buddy.

Beach_Red
07-21-2011, 05:45 PM
I was talking about previous games where the team was "rebuilding".

I agree, the team did better last night to an extent. But bringing the guys they brought in goes against the grain of "rebuilding".

By point is which players that are <25 that TFC has that are building blocks for the future?

If you're rebuilding... fine... you go with the RSL model.

If you want results now... you go with the NYRB model.

It seems like they're switching gears half way through the season.

Yes, it definitely seems like they're switching gears halfway through the season. Which may not be a bad thing. For all their talk about a new culture and an "entertaining style" it's good that someone finally realized the objective here is to win games against other MLS teams.

One thing that has been consistent with TFC all year is that they're easy to play against. It has been odd to hear almost no talk at all before games about the oposition, about how they plan to win, as if all the teams are the same or as if TFC feels it can execute so well it doesn't matter who they're playing.

So changing gears is not a bad idea.

jloome
07-21-2011, 05:50 PM
No way man, Ajax hires inept coaches to run their world famous youth teams all the time and then keep them on for years on end.

^sarcasm

It could never be that lazy, unskilled American players just don't/can't get it. It's because the dutch guys are all the same, everyone of them underestimates our powerhouse league and suddenly forget how to tell eleven guys how to play a system they've played since they were 3yrs old.

^ more sarcasm

Have to agree. Taking Gordon's word on this is foolish; he's been passed around more than a hooker on a sailor's shore leave.

And it's clear from Grant Wahl's book that Gullit was hardly even present, considered himself an executive manager -- that isn't what we've seen from Winter.

What we have seen that suppots that theory is his loyalty to Harden, whom Gullit also loved.

Personally, I think Gordon and Peterson are describing the same thing as De Klerk and Winter -- that they can't play the system. I hate to tell the two perennial journeyman...but that doesn't mean the system's bad, or even the coaching.

jloome
07-21-2011, 05:57 PM
But here's a question Thrillos...is what was traded done because they are "lazy complainers" or was it because of personality conflicts with Winter?

What evidence is there that the players stated in your post were "lazy"? Or "complainers"? Or that simply how we justify it because Winter chose to send them off?

This board is so very schizophrenic it almost gives me whiplash. One day we are praising Gordon and bemoaning his injury as the key factor in us not scoring and the next day he's lazy and useless and we're happy he's gone.

Again I point out the amount of faith we are placing in "Winter and Co" without any real evidence that they know what they are doing.

Again I point to the lack of faith you continually exhibit without having given him long enough to fix the previous regime. Both arguments are just as specious and pointless.

jazzy
07-21-2011, 05:59 PM
I agree with this statement, can't teach an old dog new tricks. The Acadmey will be huge in the future and that's why I think Winter was brought in. Ajax is arguably the best academy in the world.

Yes , in the midst of the war, we are not seeing the big picture.....myself included,.....it is long term strength and stability that we should be trying to achieve........of course we will see every problem and mistake.....but what other course is there......slow and steadi 'progress .....I guess

jloome
07-21-2011, 05:59 PM
If you've read The Beckham Experiment, and you've followed MLS for a while, then you know that Alan Gordon is a really interesting, thoughtful, hugely-respected-around-the-league type person.

There is no interpretation of this other than that it's incredibly negative for Winter. Period. Suggesting it's just sour grapes is like saying the sky is purple.


Again, having read the book, where do you get this? There is no way, from that book, that you can claim to known Alan Gordon well enough to write it off as not being sour grapes. He was injured, he felt he shouldn't have been playing. That, right there, is enough for sour grapes, and that's out of his own mouth. On top of that, he'd just been traded for the fifth time in seven years, even though he was his team's number two leading scorer.

Additionally, he was probably told he was being fragile by the coaches, based on what the trainer was telling them. So really, why woudl you NOT expect sour grapes? That litany of annoyances would piss anyone off.

jloome
07-21-2011, 06:02 PM
Ajax released him and he was unemployed for 18 months.

I've seen you mention this before. As far as I can tell, he was never released by Ajax. He was assistant coach of the first reserve team from 2005-2011 and head coach of the youth team from 2007-2011.

Anyone who knows Ajax on this? Vic?

Detroit_TFC
07-21-2011, 06:04 PM
Sometimes teams dump decent coaches (Sigi at LA) and sometime clueless managers get hired (Avram Grant at West Ham). Sometimes coaches/managers with a track record of success shit the nest (too many to list, Sven at Mexico and Capello at England come to mind) and sometimes coachs/mgrs with no top flight experience excel (Pep Guardiola). A lot depends on what the expectations are and what the bosses want them to do. I believe the academy set up is a big part of what Winter & Co. were hired to do and just perhaps immediate results were not high on the list (ok maybe high on the list but not top of the list).

mightydrm
07-21-2011, 06:04 PM
I liked Gordon, alot, but i find it hard to believe that Winter and DeKlerk are as incapable as suggested. Their pedigree suggests much better. While I am concerned about the teams lack of response after the half - suggesting a coaching/motivation issue, I think to compare Winter to Bradley or Arena is ludicrous. they have a plan, and a re undertaking it. if Preki hadn't got rid of some players with ball skill - like Aamado - it would be easier. meantime, they are trying, and if last night is any evidence, will succeed. They have my support and should have everyone's.

Whoop
07-21-2011, 06:20 PM
I've seen you mention this before. As far as I can tell, he was never released by Ajax. He was assistant coach of the first reserve team from 2005-2011 and head coach of the youth team from 2007-2011.

Anyone who knows Ajax on this? Vic?

Don't go by his wiki page.

He last coached in 2009.

Whoever edited the wiki page tried to "fill in the gap" in his resume.

brad
07-21-2011, 06:23 PM
Goes further back...

Has any former TFC player ever said anything positive about TFC upon leaving?

I know that Dunivant loved it here and didn't want to leave.

ExiledRed
07-21-2011, 06:27 PM
I've seen you mention this before. As far as I can tell, he was never released by Ajax. He was assistant coach of the first reserve team from 2005-2011 and head coach of the youth team from 2007-2011.

Anyone who knows Ajax on this? Vic?

the wiki looks like its been through by the chinese.

ManUtd4ever
07-21-2011, 06:28 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but 90 minutes of football seems like an insufficient timeframe to reach any definitive conclusions about a player, let alone a group of several players that were making their debut for the club.

Personally, I thought the new acquisitions were average for the most part, other than Frings, who clearly demonstrated that he can still control the midfield despite not being match fit.

In any case, a few more weeks should allow us to accurately gauge the new signings.

Whoop
07-21-2011, 06:32 PM
If anyone reads Dutch, you can find some info here.

http://www.ajaxupdate.nl/2009/05/tussentijdse-verklaring-afc-ajax/

If you look towards the middle-end of the news piece, it mentions Aron Winter being released by the club. Adrie Koster, who was coaching with him, left at the same time. But since Koster had a more extensive coaching background he wound up moving to Bruges.

This is from May 2009.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/aron-winter/aufeinenblick/trainer_771.html

ensco
07-21-2011, 06:33 PM
Either they do endless passing drills, but have no idea what the heck the bigger picture is of what the system is, or they don't.

Either his comment that Winter is just like Gullit makes sense to you, or it doesn't.

I believe Gordon, and I think it's ridiculous not to.

Blowing Bubbles
07-21-2011, 06:36 PM
It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.

what an absolute bunch of fucking shit. Dallas lost the league MVP and hasn't missed a beat playing a bunch of no-name cheap South Americans and cheap Americans ..... and their best player is one of those so called "no talent MLS/NCAA" players in Brek Shea. Yeah you remember that guy right - that blonde kid who destroyed us last night.

The worst punt and hoof offenders like New England and Portland are at the bottom of the table anyway.

Who is winning "ugly" in this league?

Dallas and Seattle are winning with quality players the ages of 21-25. We already know about RSL, LA and NY.

I guess you can say Philly is winning ugly, maybe.

nickio
07-21-2011, 06:38 PM
Here are some terms that might be understood better in Canada- the hockey country:

Imagine an NHL/AHL coach goes off to Italy to teach hockey, and he's an ex-NHL player. The hockey they play there is: get the puck, run to the net or throw it into the zone and hope for the best.

The management expects results from the team.

Does the coach:

-Teach 30+ year old hockey players how to play cycle, passing game and explain them the fundemantals of stick handling with the head-up? (Because they don't!)

-Or Bring in 10 AHL/ECHL Canadian players, because let's say that's the limit, and draw up some hockey tactics...

What's the point of Winter trying to explain to Alan Gordon how to play attacking for 4-3-3 if he knows that Gordon is a journeyman who is just a filler....? It's like teaching a 30 year old hockey player to handle the puck without looking at it. It's Fundemental A, B, C's. How did Alan Gordon get into football again?? Oh yea.. baseball player- ok..

That's the way I see it. I believe that Winter has atleast the knowledge to be in the league as a competative coach. Whether or not he is the real deal winner is questionable, since it's his first real coaching job.

Whoop
07-21-2011, 06:44 PM
^^
No the hockey equivalent is getting a former NHL player who coached AAA minor hockey and goes to the Swiss First Division to coach a professional team.

Now if Winter had coached Ajax (NHL) or a 2nd division team (AHL)... then you have a better gauge of what kind of coach he is.

Remember Winter was never the HEAD coach of the top Ajax youth team.

Blowing Bubbles
07-21-2011, 06:48 PM
fyi in their last game RSL started:

7 dumb Americans
2 dumb Canadian
1 Colombian
1 Costa Rican

no DP's. beat Dallas 2-0.

They managed to get their dumb North American players to play good stuff so it is possible.

ExiledRed
07-21-2011, 06:49 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but 90 minutes of football seems like an insufficient timeframe to reach any definitive conclusions about a player, let alone a group of several players that were making their debut for the club.

Personally, I thought the new acquisitions were average for the most part, other than Frings, who clearly demonstrated that he can still control the midfield despite not being match fit.

In any case, a few more weeks should allow us to accurately gauge the new signings.

As far as this team goes, its impossible to reach any definitive conclusions about anyone or anything in any amount of time.

fact.

RedsYNWA
07-21-2011, 06:50 PM
OMG Guys, give Winter a chance the Playoffs are long gone this year. I hope we can make a run at the Champions League and if we can get out of the group stage that = success in my mind, win it ( dare I dream) and it's more important than the MLS cup.

Whoop
07-21-2011, 06:50 PM
FYI, the Ajax A1 team is the "flagship" team of the Ajax Youth Academy.

Winter was only the assistant of that team.

nickio
07-21-2011, 06:53 PM
^^
No the hockey equivalent is getting a former NHL player who coached AAA minor hockey and goes to the Swiss First Division to coach a professional team.

Now if Winter had coached Ajax (NHL) or a 2nd division team (AHL)... then you have a better gauge of what kind of coach he is.

Remember Winter was never the HEAD coach of the top Ajax youth team.

My point still stands- even an assistant CHL coach / (good) ex NHL player would know what he is doing.

johntv
07-21-2011, 06:53 PM
I had the opportunity to speak to Aron just after his arrival and he said that the the technical level of his players was not good at all.What I also noted last night that the level of intelligent soccer was very low.No brilliant passes,poor decision making and fundamentals were ignored.It short it was a disaster.I was also very aware of his minimal exposure to these coaching levels and I never expected him to do well.The drawing board is immense and that Ajax system thing only applies to their youth system.We have not reached that status and what always amazed me that this Ajax system was very strong on players doing very well at school.No good marks and you don't play for Ajax.The educational committee have the power to bench a player.That magic Ajax system and educational system go hand in hand.

Stryker
07-21-2011, 06:55 PM
Im staying on the train, now what? you gonna bitch at me some more cause i think the coach is out of his depth?

Actually I was referring to the players rather than the supporters as they're supposed to be professionals. The supporters I can understand their frustration as I am also but you can hardly expect to deal away shit and get diamonds in return. The incoming players may only be of the same skill level or perhaps marginally better but at least they have a willingness to try to adapt to the new system and a seemingly better outlook on the club as a whole. These were things Winter himself said he was looking for in new players.

Having said all that you seem to want to take my previous post on a personal level so Ill just respond by saying I really don't care if you, Exiled, are on the train, off the train, or under the train.

Whoop
07-21-2011, 06:57 PM
My point still stands- even an assistant CHL coach / (good) ex NHL player would know what he is doing.

I can unequivocally say that is not true.

You'd be surprised.

Just because you played a professional sport doesn't mean you will be a successful professional coach.

Heathen
07-21-2011, 07:10 PM
I wish you people would learn to separate the System (god I hate that term, it's formation and tactics ffs) and Winter. Winter didn't invent the System, it's not dependent on him.
In business, you can have MBAs from LSE, Wharton etc and try and implement the best most proven and successful business startegy in the world but if you're not any good at communicating it to your employees or not any good at man management you are going to fail!
I don't know whether Gordon and Petersen are right or Winter really is the genius you all think he is but I know which there's more evidence for as of now.

Pookie
07-21-2011, 07:27 PM
Just because you played a professional sport doesn't mean you will be a successful professional coach.

Agreed. Wayne Gretzky. Case closed.

jloome
07-21-2011, 07:28 PM
Either they do endless passing drills, but have no idea what the heck the bigger picture is of what the system is, or they don't.

Either his comment that Winter is just like Gullit makes sense to you, or it doesn't.

I believe Gordon, and I think it's ridiculous not to.

According to the Beckham experiment, Gullit wasn't even present much of the time. That doesn't gel with what we've seen of Winter. So maybe there are some elements that are and some that aren't; for one, he likes Harden, which smells of Gullit.

But to "think it's ridiculous not to," is just arrogant. You're not prescient. You have no idea whether he's being completely frank, honest and accurate. Maybe he is, but to suggest that other possibilities are "ridiculous" has no factual foundation.

Pookie
07-21-2011, 07:30 PM
I don't know whether Gordon and Petersen are right or Winter really is the genius you all think he is but I know which there's more evidence for as of now.

So, Peterson's career took a backwards step under Winter? A player that we got in exchange for allocation money? Really?

And Gordon, a player who had his best career statistics in Red at the age of 29, equally suffered under Winter's shortcomings?

Whoop
07-21-2011, 07:31 PM
Agreed. Wayne Gretzky. Case closed.

There are way more examples than just Gretzky.

Pookie
07-21-2011, 07:33 PM
^ prime one though. Best player, ever (arguably), but couldn't coach.

GeorgeBest
07-21-2011, 07:34 PM
As far as coaching goes, I said to him that to me, Winter resembles Ruud Gullit. He said: "I've played for both of them. They're the exact same person."


In 4 1/2 years of mayhem, this could be my favourite TFC quotation.



He said the coaches have done a horrible job explaining the "system' to the players and added that many just don't get it. He said they do a lot of passing drills in practice, more than he's ever seen, but when a player asks a question about how the system works beyond just "attacking, possession-oriented football," there are no answers. Players are just running around in confusion.


Gordon's description here sounds about as plausible as anything. I was at the Philly game, I have seen confusion.

Pookie
07-21-2011, 07:42 PM
What's the point of Winter trying to explain to Alan Gordon how to play attacking for 4-3-3 if he knows that Gordon is a journeyman who is just a filler....? It's like teaching a 30 year old hockey player to handle the puck without looking at it. It's Fundemental A, B, C's. How did Alan Gordon get into football again?? Oh yea.. baseball player- ok..


In your example, does the hockey coach simply teach the 10 AHL/ECHL players the game plan or does he work with everyone on the same system?

That plan may work fine for the 10 players but what happens when the other 8 take their shifts? Does he simply hope that when they do, they adopt the "Canadian" style?

At some point, you have to teach the same game plan to everyone. They either learn it and buy in or you move them out.

You highlight how silly it is to try to teach Alan Gordon how to play an attacking style, how silly is it to teach an Eckersley to simply send it long when he is capable of more?

Oldtimer
07-21-2011, 07:53 PM
Calling Gordon "respected" as one poster here said is a bit of an overstatement. "Liked" is more like it.

You can always count on Gordon to speak his mind. That's why Grant Wahl found him so quotable. I'm not sure I would characterize him as "extremely intelligent" as one poster here has.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's summarize what most of us agree on:

(1) I think we all believe the story that started this thread, although there is no secondary verification, it's heresay, and a casual conversation can always be misinterpreted. That being said, it's plausible.

(2) We all agree that the players seem confused and disorganized

(3) I think most of us agree that most of our players, no matter what the NCAA standard is, or what is typical, or who the coach is, or the turf or the weather, couldn't string very many passes together.

Where there is some disagreement is whose fault is that:

Theory #1 - Winter is failing to communicate how to play the "system." Whether it is coaching inexperience, cultural differences, poor English, it's Winter's fault. At least some players like Gordon who are struggling or are shipped out say that they are having problem understanding the coach and his methods, and doubt his ability. Supporting evidence is this conversation with Gordon, and some player's comments to Roogsy.

Theory #2 - TFC has a lot of crap players who couldn't understand anything but the most basic kick-and-run football. The problems so far are due to the inability of the players. This could be due to NCAA training (which is disputed by some), poor squad building, lack of academy players, etc. Evidence for this view is evident every game, where we see players make simple passes that go out of touch, etc.

OK, I have it clear in my mind now. Carry on. :D

Heathen
07-21-2011, 08:07 PM
So, Peterson's career took a backwards step under Winter? A player that we got in exchange for allocation money? Really?

And Gordon, a player who had his best career statistics in Red at the age of 29, equally suffered under Winter's shortcomings?

I'm talking about overall evidence of Winter's ability that I've seen so far. In the 25 or whatever games tell me how many has he outcoached his opposite number or made a tactical change to influence the game in our favour.
I don't see the point of the argument your making about Peterson and Gordon, it's not about their individual performances, frankly I'm more than happy to see the back of Peterson as you infer he wasn't very good to begin with. It's their views on Winters running of the team that bother me not the influence he had on their careers, they're gone I don't care about them anymore.

Beach_Red
07-21-2011, 08:17 PM
In your example, does the hockey coach simply teach the 10 AHL/ECHL players the game plan or does he work with everyone on the same system?

That plan may work fine for the 10 players but what happens when the other 8 take their shifts? Does he simply hope that when they do, they adopt the "Canadian" style?

At some point, you have to teach the same game plan to everyone. They either learn it and buy in or you move them out.

You highlight how silly it is to try to teach Alan Gordon how to play an attacking style, how silly is it to teach an Eckersley to simply send it long when he is capable of more?

You can teach all you want, not everyone will learn it. Using the hockey example, would there be any point in trying to teach a bunch of ECHL/AHL guys to play like an NHL team? If they could do that, they'd be in the NHL.

The only thing we can really agree on is that TFC hasn't won enough games.

So, I think Whoop is right, they've switched gears and whatever "plan" (call it system, call it culture, call it whatever you want) they had at the beginning of the season has been changed. Who knows for how long, but Winter and Mariner now have two and a half years left on their contracts and would probably like to get another contract somewhere - maybe here, maybe not - when it's done.

Pookie
07-21-2011, 08:32 PM
You can teach all you want, not everyone will learn it. Using the hockey example, would there be any point in trying to teach a bunch of ECHL/AHL guys to play like an NHL team? If they could do that, they'd be in the NHL.

But you have to teach them all a system. You've got 18 players that take to the ice and there has to be a game plan. While you might tweak the plan to cater to your strengths, not all 18 are going to be strong at the plan you adopt.

Those that aren't strong, are going to need practice time to get good at the system. To suggest they can't learn is silly.

The NHL is filled with players that were once stand outs in Junior only to have to adopt a new style of play in order to earn a spot on the big team. Tim Brent, broke into the NHL as a shut down/PK guy this year. He had 67 points in 53 games in Junior hockey. He adapted.

Peter Zezel, one of the best shut down guys we've had, had 33 goals in one season with the Flyers. 5 years later, he was playing with Berg and Osborne as our primary checking line. In Junior, Zezel had 47 goals with the Toronto Marlboros. He adapted.

The NHL is full of players that have had to adapt to a specific role that supports a system. Hockey players can learn. I'm sure that soccer players can too.

Anyways, perhaps the game plan has changed or perhaps the game plan is the same and the parts have changed. Just because an older player has been brought in doesn't exclusively mean that they are going for it now. Frings' value is also in his ability to teach and lead our younger players.

v00d00daddy
07-21-2011, 08:33 PM
There is no interpretation of this other than that it's incredibly negative for Winter. Period

Well...just to challenge this oh so fact laden statement.....

If Gordon said that some of the guys "just don't get it".....please tell me how the only way to interpret that is negatively on Winter of all people

For all we know...Gordon himself didn't get it either.

And that should come as no surprise.

One of the main reasons a lot of these MLSers never made it beyond MLS is because they don't have the ability, or have not been exposed to playing a different brand of football.

Personally...I'll still wait until I see what Winter and de Klerk can do with some more time.

Winter may very well be the second coming of Gullit in North America and a complete flop but Alan Gordon's assesment of this coach is not a replacement for time.

Winter needs time to see if he can succeed.

Again...this tidbit of info has been stretched and contorted to conform to everyones already made up mind....when, in actuality...the only fact here is that we don't know if Winter will be a success or a failure YET!

Unless you've already written him off as a failure and want him fired. There have been a few of those opinions but not many.

Time will tell folks.

Good luck to Alan Gordon.

v00d00daddy
07-21-2011, 08:38 PM
You can teach all you want, not everyone will learn it. Using the hockey example, would there be any point in trying to teach a bunch of ECHL/AHL guys to play like an NHL team? If they could do that, they'd be in the NHL.

The only thing we can really agree on is that TFC hasn't won enough games.

So, I think Whoop is right, they've switched gears and whatever "plan" (call it system, call it culture, call it whatever you want) they had at the beginning of the season has been changed. Who knows for how long, but Winter and Mariner now have two and a half years left on their contracts and would probably like to get another contract somewhere - maybe here, maybe not - when it's done.


But you have to teach them all a system. You've got 18 players that take to the ice and there has to be a game plan. While you might tweak the plan to cater to your strengths, not all 18 are going to be strong at the plan you adopt.

Those that aren't strong, are going to need practice time to get good at the system. To suggest they can't learn is silly.

The NHL is filled with players that were once stand outs in Junior only to have to adopt a new style of play in order to earn a spot on the big team. Tim Brent, broke into the NHL as a shut down/PK guy this year. He had 67 points in 53 games in Junior hockey. He adapted.

Peter Zezel, one of the best shut down guys we've had, had 33 goals in one season with the Flyers. 5 years later, he was playing with Berg and Osborne as our primary checking line. In Junior, Zezel had 47 goals with the Toronto Marlboros. He adapted.

The NHL is full of players that have had to adapt to a specific role that supports a system. Hockey players can learn. I'm sure that soccer players can too.

Anyways, perhaps the game plan has changed or perhaps the game plan is the same and the parts have changed. Just because an older player has been brought in doesn't exclusively mean that they are going for it now. Frings' value is also in his ability to teach and lead our younger players.

I don't think they've switched plans at all. They still want to bring up and cultivate players with a strong emphasis on the fundamentals and the 4-3-3, possession based game. Adding a couple of DP's hasn't changed their stance on player development.

As for the hockey analogy....it has nothing to do with trying to teach AHLers to play like NHLers...it would be more like having to teach AHLers basics like crossovers and skating with the puck on your stick and your head up.

That's where a lot of TFC/MLS players (current and former) are at in terms of skill level.

Its shocking to see grown men being paid to play soccer and not even be able to trap a ball with their weak foot. That's what Winter and co. are trying to eliminate.

The growing pains in doing this are to be expected, in my opinion.

Beach_Red
07-21-2011, 08:49 PM
^ I think what's changed is they feel a need to win more games this season. It's one thing to say it's the beginning of a long-term plan, it's another to have the worst record in MLS on your resume. If they had longer-term contracts it might be different but atvthis point Mariner and Winter could see how the season was going to play out and likely how next season would play out. There's no one above them at TFC who can evaluate what they're doing and the company will likely have new owners soon.

They need to win more games.

And, getting back to the hockey analogy (I admit I'm a lot more comfortable with it), you have to have them all playing the same system, yes, but it has to be 1) a system they can all play, and 2) a system that's effective against your opposition. Lots of hockey teams with "less talent" have won more games than they should have by using effective game plans. In fact, pretty much every hockey team with a lousy record gets better by going back to basics, playing defensively and grinding out wins. Has any last place hockey team ever said, "Let's play a style like the '85 Oilers; fast-paced, high-skilled, entertaining hockey."

I think Winter and Mariner have thrown out the plan they were given in the off season and are trying to win more games this season and good for them.

VoxPopuliCosmicum
07-21-2011, 08:51 PM
As for using Preki as an example of "MLS experience" this is called argument by selective observation where you count the hits and forget the misses when discussing evidence that supports your argument. Bruce Arena and Sigi Schmid are both coaches with extensive MLS experience, do they not count because one coach didn't work out? Preki should not be used to slam every coach that has worked in MLS.


If you ask me, Winter was cleaning out the lazy complainers and I am glad the players that left did leave.


This board is so very schizophrenic it almost gives me whiplash. One day we are praising Gordon and bemoaning his injury as the key factor in us not scoring and the next day he's lazy and useless and we're happy he's gone.

Just sayin', Roogs ;)

profit89
07-21-2011, 08:55 PM
It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.

Good analysis.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 08:55 PM
Again I point to the lack of faith you continually exhibit without having given him long enough to fix the previous regime. Both arguments are just as specious and pointless.

Lack of faith? That is only applicable in the face of reasons why you SHOULD have faith. Give me those first and then tell me that faith should be given and that it's unreasonable not to.

Faith should not be given freely. That's credulity. And considering this organization's inability to show a modicum of competence, it would be wiser for fans to show at least some skepticism as opposed to overwillingness to believe anything because they've been told to.

19Barrett19
07-21-2011, 08:57 PM
According to the Beckham experiment, Gullit wasn't even present much of the time. That doesn't gel with what we've seen of Winter. So maybe there are some elements that are and some that aren't; for one, he likes Harden, which smells of Gullit.

But to "think it's ridiculous not to," is just arrogant. You're not prescient. You have no idea whether he's being completely frank, honest and accurate. Maybe he is, but to suggest that other possibilities are "ridiculous" has no factual foundation.

Winter does not like harden he has no other choice to play him at the moment you will see this Saturday in Kansas the backline will be

Eks-------Viator-----Iro------Broman/Youras

nobody want Harden and he cant trade him because in reality we need him at the moment just to fill in a spot. TFC is on the right track. I hope these boys can show everyone including myself that this team is going up not down anymore. I have faith in Winter and De Klerk . A win in Kansas and everybody is on the same band wagon again. Kinda reminds me of those leaf fans that talk shit all the time. Mo fucked up this team point blank. John Ferguson Jr. Fucked up the Leafs so on and so on. Burke will fix the leafs and so will Mariner Winter and De Klerk. Go TFC

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 08:59 PM
Just sayin', Roogs ;)


Saying what Vox? This board was overwhelmingly happy with Gordon's performance. Find me one very negative poster about Gordon before he was traded? Just one. Then tell me that these negative comments about Gordon didn't all of a sudden appear out of thin air after he left and made the comments?

Oldtimer
07-21-2011, 09:08 PM
Meh, I don't think people loved Gordon, Roogsy, it's just that he was the only target man we had, and we need to play with one to add dimension to our attack. Otherwise we don't score.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 09:08 PM
I am somewhat confused with all this negativity towards "North American" players. Guess what, this is the MLS, that's what we are going to have. Do we really think we're going to fill the roster with top European on a budget of two and a half million?

There are some here who say ridiculous things like "if you don't like what you see then get out"...well if you don't like the level of North American talent, maybe MLS isn't for you and you should go back to following the EPL? Because Winter arriving isnt' going to change the talent level of North American soccer. All he's going to do is frustrate himself for 1 or 2 years that he isn't working with soccer prodigies that have the talent to play in the top leagues in the world. You'd think he wouldn't have realized this fact before he took on the job. Meanwhile, the competent coaches in this league are squeezing the best they can out of the athletic but technically lacking players that North America produces and get the results they can. Meanwhile we try to turn Harden into Heitinga.

VoxPopuliCosmicum
07-21-2011, 09:08 PM
Saying what Vox? This board was overwhelmingly happy with Gordon's performance. Find me one very negative poster about Gordon before he was traded? Just one. Then tell me that these negative comments about Gordon didn't all of a sudden appear out of thin air after he left and made the comments?

I'm not arguing that people who criticize Gordon now haven't changed their tune. I think you are correct in that assessment.

At the time you made that post, there hadn't really been much criticism of Gordon. It seemed like you just took Thrillos' comments and ascribed them to the board, kind of like an argument by selective observation.

Anyway, I didn't mean anything by it. Just a little ribbing. Sorry to offend.

Oldtimer
07-21-2011, 09:11 PM
Meanwhile, the competent coaches in this league are squeezing the best they can out of the athletic but technically lacking players that North America produces

So I would place you as holding Theory number 1: It's Winter's fault.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 09:11 PM
Not offended at all Vox.

It was just an observation. Because I myself was never a huge Gordon fan although there is no denying the team had more punch when he was on the pitch. Nonetheless, there was no Gordon "hate" before but there appears to be plenty now. Is it because people truly feel he is a shit player or because they don't like to hear what he had to say?

To me it seems like people only like to have their ears tickled. Nobody wants to know what's behind the curtain.

ensco
07-21-2011, 09:12 PM
According to the Beckham experiment, Gullit wasn't even present much of the time. That doesn't gel with what we've seen of Winter. So maybe there are some elements that are and some that aren't; for one, he likes Harden, which smells of Gullit.

But to "think it's ridiculous not to," is just arrogant. You're not prescient. You have no idea whether he's being completely frank, honest and accurate. Maybe he is, but to suggest that other possibilities are "ridiculous" has no factual foundation.

There's now too much evidence to the contrary. Much of it is just using your own eyes and ears, what else is there to say? Winter has lost the room and isn't teaching and/or can't teach. His problems run deeper than that, the team's chemistry on the field is not good enough, and he lacks the most basic leadership/people skills (this week's example was insulting Nana after the trade in public).

It's not "arrogant" if it's obvious. If you don't think it's obvious, it's a free country.

As for the "time" argument that others are fixated on....enough. It's not enough time. But it's not a fair or perfect world. Winter is spitting the bit. It's enough time for me to decide I'll be cutting my TFC spend next year, big time.

ExiledRed
07-21-2011, 09:13 PM
According to the Beckham experiment, Gullit wasn't even present much of the time. That doesn't gel with what we've seen of Winter. So maybe there are some elements that are and some that aren't; for one, he likes Harden, which smells of Gullit.

But to "think it's ridiculous not to," is just arrogant. You're not prescient. You have no idea whether he's being completely frank, honest and accurate. Maybe he is, but to suggest that other possibilities are "ridiculous" has no factual foundation.

It is ridiculous not to believe gordon, because the evidence for what hes saying is staring you in the face and has been for the whole season.

its ridiculous to suggest he concocted this story out of bitterness and decided to impart it to some random guy at a train station, and the real reason the team play awkward, below their abilities and look confused has nothing to do with winter, but more to do with alan gordon's attitude.

Given that Gordon definitely wasnt the problem in the team, and doesnt have any excuses to make for himself, I think its more than ridiculous to doubt him.

VoxPopuliCosmicum
07-21-2011, 09:15 PM
Meh, I don't think people loved Gordon, Roogsy, it's just that he was the only target man we had, and we need to play with one to add dimension to our attack. Otherwise we don't score.

Other than the injuries, I liked him very much. I liked his movement, hustle, dribbling, attitude and skill. My admiration of Dutch footballers is boundless, but I have to admit that I was somewhat disappointed by the Koevermans signing because it signalled the end of Gordon. I thought he was one of the more well-rounded players we had.

Moreover, I would be more apt to trust Gordon's assessment of Winter than I would the average player. But that doesn't mean he's right.

Beach_Red
07-21-2011, 09:16 PM
So I would place you as holding Theory number 1: It's Winter's fault.

His fault because he's the front man but it is possible that he's really only taken over the team now, since he said he was going to start trading guys and suddenly a bunch of trades happened.

los sonadores
07-21-2011, 09:16 PM
Gordon played very well in Winter's system for a guy who allegedly didn't understand it.

Winter's an old school-like Dutch coach though; he's not a talkative feel good sort of guy. And he has only coached in a place where most everyone knows, on a basic level, from the age of 7 or whatever, exactly what they're supposed to be doing. His English is truly poor as well - a Dutch friend of mine heard him speak English and called it Dunglish.

Anyway, there is a learning curve, and we have to climb it as well. There is no other sane choice at this point.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 09:16 PM
There's now too much evidence to the contrary. Much of it is just using your own eyes and ears, what else is there to say? Winter has lost the room and isn't teaching and/or can't teach. It's not "arrogant" if it's obvious. If you don't think it's obvious, it's a free country.


One player saying it is little evidence. Many players saying it should be more worrisome. But it seems that people are more willing to take all the evidence out there and bundle it all completely as "coincidence" and some sort of "North American entitlement". Well, other teams do just fine with these same entitled "North Americans". If Winter came here to bemoan the talent level in North America, maybe he shouldn't be coaching North American players? Maybe that's what he wants? To fill the roster full of non-North Americans. That will be great. We will get the drudges of Europe while at the same time failing to develop Canadian talent. Marvelous.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 09:18 PM
Given that Gordon definitely wasnt the problem in the team, and doesnt have any excuses to make for himself, I think its more than ridiculous to doubt him.

I fully expect at some point to hear something about Gordon being entitled, lazy or just an outright cancer. That's the M.O. around here.

Beach_Red
07-21-2011, 09:20 PM
One player saying it is little evidence. Many players saying it should be more worrisome. But it seems that people are more willing to take all the evidence out there and bundle it all completely as "coincidence" and some sort of "North American entitlement". Well, other teams do just fine with these same entitled "North Americans". If Winter came here to bemoan the talent level in North America, maybe he shouldn't be coaching North American players? Maybe that's what he wants? To fill the roster full of non-North Americans. That will be great. We will get the drudges of Europe while at the same time failing to develop Canadian talent. Marvelous.

We'll have to trade all our young prospects for international roster spots ;).

TFCRegina
07-21-2011, 09:22 PM
Just sayin', Roogs ;)

Just saying what? They're two completely different examples.

VoxPopuliCosmicum
07-21-2011, 09:22 PM
This is how I see it. The players that have been traded (Gordon, Attakora, Peterson, Tchani) were all "injured" very often this season thus far. To the point of playing one game and becoming "injured" again, but they never actually pulled up limp on the field or anything during gameplay. They were just all of a sudden back on the injured list.

Except that Gordon did pull up injured and wincing in pain in a couple of games and definitely took knocks. Tchani almost had his ankle snapped on a red-card worthy tackle by Beckham. And, IIRC, Attakora was subbed out injured with 10 minutes left in a game.

VoxPopuliCosmicum
07-21-2011, 09:26 PM
Just saying what? They're two completely different examples.
Roogsy criticized someone for saying that because Preki was shit for us that proves that MLS coaches are shit. Then Thrillos said Gordon was shit. Then Roogsy ascribed Thrillos' comments to "this board", as though Thrillos speaks for everyone.

How is that two completely different examples?

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 09:33 PM
Generalizations are a funny beast Vox. Would it be fair to say that this board is pro-Winter? Not all generalizations are fair are but some are pretty safe.

However picking out on bad coach in a sea of good coaches in an effort to prove a point is indeed selective is it not?

As for Gordon, my impression of Gordon's appreciation is based on spending a pretty stupid amount of time on this board. Now if you could find me extensive criticism of Gordon that would be evidence of the inaccuracy of my statement. Is there any?

ag futbol
07-21-2011, 09:36 PM
I am somewhat confused with all this negativity towards "North American" players. Guess what, this is the MLS, that's what we are going to have. Do we really think we're going to fill the roster with top European on a budget of two and a half million?

This mentality is like Taco Bell saying they're going to run a business without serving meals to the obese. Good luck!

The attitude really strikes me as “we’re going to do it our way because these people don’t know any better”. I think that’s a story that’s been written with MLS coaches before. Maybe for our sake we can re-write the ending?

DOMIN8R
07-21-2011, 09:38 PM
1) Whether Gordon speaks the truth;
2) We should loose confidence in Winter and he should be let go;
3) We should loose confidence in Winter and still support the team and management;
4) We should protest;
5) We should stop doing something like "reduce our spending" (i.e.: not renew our tickets???);
6) Gordon is not a reliable source...as he is on his way out;
7) Those on this board should stop changing their minds (how dare they?); 8) Those who are posting today represent all those who have posted in the past and should be held responsible for all those who have posted before today; or
9) Some of the above....all of the above...none of the above?

Somebody throw me a bone over here.

VoxPopuliCosmicum
07-21-2011, 09:41 PM
Generalizations are a funny beast Vox. Would it be fair to say that this board is pro-Winter? Not all generalizations are fair are but some are pretty safe.

However picking out on bad coach in a sea of good coaches in an effort to prove a point is indeed selective is it not?

As for Gordon, my impression of Gordon's appreciation is based on spending a pretty stupid amount of time on this board. Now if you could find me extensive criticism of Gordon that would be evidence of the inaccuracy of my statement. Is there any?

I never said your statement was inaccurate. In fact, I said the opposite. I was just noting what seemed to me like an ironic instance of selective argument.

backbeat
07-21-2011, 09:46 PM
geez

a sniff of negative and there's an F'n feeding frenzy around here.....

ensco
07-21-2011, 09:48 PM
geez

a sniff of negative and there's an F'n feeding frenzy around here.....

A sniff or two a week, pretty soon you've got a stench.

Never mind, that takes two years.

ensco
07-21-2011, 09:52 PM
1) Whether Gordon speaks the truth;
2) We should loose confidence in Winter and he should be let go;
3) We should loose confidence in Winter and still support the team and management;
4) We should protest;
5) We should stop doing something like "reduce our spending" (i.e.: not renew our tickets???);
6) Gordon is not a reliable source...as he is on his way out;
7) Those on this board should stop changing their minds (how dare they?); 8) Those who are posting today represent all those who have posted in the past and should be held responsible for all those who have posted before today; or
9) Some of the above....all of the above...none of the above?

Somebody throw me a bone over here.

I hate to say it but, as awful as it is for us and our team, I think it's about whether Winter is done. Everything flows from that.

v00d00daddy
07-21-2011, 09:57 PM
I am somewhat confused with all this negativity towards "North American" players. Guess what, this is the MLS, that's what we are going to have. Do we really think we're going to fill the roster with top European on a budget of two and a half million?

There are some here who say ridiculous things like "if you don't like what you see then get out"...well if you don't like the level of North American talent, maybe MLS isn't for you and you should go back to following the EPL? Because Winter arriving isnt' going to change the talent level of North American soccer. All he's going to do is frustrate himself for 1 or 2 years that he isn't working with soccer prodigies that have the talent to play in the top leagues in the world. You'd think he wouldn't have realized this fact before he took on the job. Meanwhile, the competent coaches in this league are squeezing the best they can out of the athletic but technically lacking players that North America produces and get the results they can. Meanwhile we try to turn Harden into Heitinga.

Here is where I can agree wholeheartedly.

If TFC go back to playing "athletic, technically lacking" football I'm out. Wins or no wins I'll be gone because it's a road to oblivion.

If this team and this league doesnt aspire to play a technically proficient league to rival those in south America and Europe then what's the point?

Moreover...I see the need to get away from "athletic, technically lacking" football if we're ever going to see canada and Canadian kids compete on the world stage.

So..in short...if TFC decide to revert to 80's football for the sake of short term results I'll gladly walk away from my st. And if the canadian footballing mentality remains the same, I'll stop supporting the cmnt too.

I'll happily be a euro/south American football snob because there will be nothing to look forward to here.

This is my main reason for supporting winter and de Klerk.

Not because I love them, or because I think they're brilliant but because I want them to succeed in their plans. I want the plans to succeed because I think it would be good for football in general in this city and in this country and that's what I want more than anything.

ensco
07-21-2011, 10:12 PM
So..in short...if TFC decide to revert to 80's football for the sake of short term results I'll gladly walk away from my st.


Serious question, not sarcastic. If this is how you feel, how have you held on to date? Do you not think this is all TFC have ever done?

prizby
07-21-2011, 10:15 PM
fyi in their last game RSL started:

7 dumb Americans
2 dumb Canadian
1 Colombian
1 Costa Rican

no DP's. beat Dallas 2-0.

They managed to get their dumb North American players to play good stuff so it is possible.

who is the 2nd canadian???

DOMIN8R
07-21-2011, 10:22 PM
I hate to say it but, as awful as it is for us and our team, I think it's about whether Winter is done. Everything flows from that.

So let's say, for the sake of argument, MLSE and the fans loose faith in Klinsman's (and his view that we need to invest in the long-term to see sustainable results) recommendation and sack WMD and we start over every six months until we see a playoff run, would you be satisfied? Or should we sack management until we hear that traded players leave happy and have warm and fuzzy feelings about TFC? Or we sack management until Anselmi looses his job or the team is sold - whichever comes first?

I don't get it. Should we just call BMO field the firing range and stop masquerading that it's a football pitch? Because that will get the "best" coaches and players to want to come here?

I'm sorry but I don't see this as reasonable. But perhaps I'm missing something. Help me understand how this makes sense.

OR

Admit that this is not logical and we are compelled to follow the present course and hope that it is the right one.

v00d00daddy
07-21-2011, 10:27 PM
Serious question, not sarcastic. If this is how you feel, how have you held on to date? Do you not think this is all TFC have ever done?

It is all they've ever done...but it's only been 4 seasons.

I know that sounds crazy but I always hoped we'd one day want to build a club that aspires to something better than we've ever had in Canada. A club that would serve as the benchmark for canadian kids to reach in an attempt to produce world class players.

When I heard that TFC wanted to implement a system to build a club in the mold of Ajax I was happy. Very happy.

Now all I've got left to do is wait and see if it's attainable.

If it is...great.

If it isnt and the alternative is the utter shit I watched in the first couple of years (or a more productive version of that garbage brand of football) then my interest in club football in Toronto will once again be gone.

If TFC pull the plug on what some call an "experiment" for the sake of results and bring back garbage soccer, I'm done.

123 elite
07-21-2011, 10:34 PM
This is a great thread. Lots of interesting stuff on here and nice to read the passion that we all have for TFC.
The Gordon thing is intriguing. I agreee with Roogsey though that thee has barely been a bad word on here about him till now. In fact after the LA game he was like god and the solution to every problem upfront we had.
i actually saw a lot of improvement last night and only time will tell how it will pan out. It needs about 6 more games in my opinion to make any judgement, My feeling though is that Winter is on the out. He is in way over his head. Too much importance is placed on the Ajax system in his support. As much as i like Ajax from the 70s there really hasn't been much to get excited about from Ajax over the last 25 years. Not to piss on Ajax or anything because i think what they try to do is the way forward but they have been surpassed in youth development by many european clubs. And the 'dutch system' on display at the world cup was the opposite of the Dutch of 74 and 78 so lets not get to thrilled with the Dutch. We are a long way from VB, Guillit and Cruyff now.
Frings looked good but evryone else last night that was new has much to prove.
I've been really critical of the team this year but i think we have to get off their backs now for a while

Heathen
07-21-2011, 10:37 PM
Here is where I can agree wholeheartedly.

If TFC go back to playing "athletic, technically lacking" football I'm out. Wins or no wins I'll be gone because it's a road to oblivion.

If this team and this league doesnt aspire to play a technically proficient league to rival those in south America and Europe then what's the point?

Moreover...I see the need to get away from "athletic, technically lacking" football if we're ever going to see canada and Canadian kids compete on the world stage.

So..in short...if TFC decide to revert to 80's football for the sake of short term results I'll gladly walk away from my st. And if the canadian footballing mentality remains the same, I'll stop supporting the cmnt too.

I'll happily be a euro/south American football snob because there will be nothing to look forward to here.

This is my main reason for supporting winter and de Klerk.

Not because I love them, or because I think they're brilliant but because I want them to succeed in their plans. I want the plans to succeed because I think it would be good for football in general in this city and in this country and that's what I want more than anything.

I think its ridiculous to claim that without Winter and De Klerk TFC will automatically become Wimbledon circa 1988. I think its also insulting to ignore the fact that there are teams in the MLS who play attractive football, we lost to one last night

DangerRed
07-21-2011, 10:37 PM
Hey everyone, just back inbetween beers here for a quick comment: I may have said up top that some of Gordon's commentary was probably/likely sour grapes, but that was really a throw-away line. Nothing about what he said sounded genuinely bitter or sour. He was just genuinely sad for the team and sad for the fans. At least that was my read. Take it or leave it.

Also, if I'm right like I think I am, and Winter is very similar to Gullit, we're fucked for the foreseeable future. Be ready to expect West Ham-like results.

Back to drinking with the missus. G'night.

Stryker
07-21-2011, 10:38 PM
1) Whether Gordon speaks the truth;
2) We should loose confidence in Winter and he should be let go;
3) We should loose confidence in Winter and still support the team and management;
4) We should protest;
5) We should stop doing something like "reduce our spending" (i.e.: not renew our tickets???);
6) Gordon is not a reliable source...as he is on his way out;
7) Those on this board should stop changing their minds (how dare they?); 8) Those who are posting today represent all those who have posted in the past and should be held responsible for all those who have posted before today; or
9) Some of the above....all of the above...none of the above?

Somebody throw me a bone over here.


Beats me man. I'm just here cause I heard they were having free sandwiches.


http://www.coloradobeefstore.com/images/SandwichTray1.jpg

ManUtd4ever
07-21-2011, 10:39 PM
There's now too much evidence to the contrary. Much of it is just using your own eyes and ears, what else is there to say? Winter has lost the room and isn't teaching and/or can't teach. His problems run deeper than that, the team's chemistry on the field is not good enough, and he lacks the most basic leadership/people skills (this week's example was insulting Nana after the trade in public).


Winter has lost the room? Considering that the majority of players in the locker room are now his acquisitions, and 7 of those players arrived within the last 2 weeks, I submit that your assertion is highly unlikely, and mere conjecture at this point.

Once again, Gordon's comments aren't a revelation. It was already apparent that some players weren't grasping his tactical approach. As a result, roster transactions have taken place to acquire players that Winter feels are condusive to his desired style of play.

If Winter is to be judged accordingly, it should be within the appropriate timeframe, with his players. The clock started ticking yesterday.

DOMIN8R
07-21-2011, 10:40 PM
It is all they've ever done...but it's only been 4 seasons.

I know that sounds crazy but I always hoped we'd one day want to build a club that aspires to something better than we've ever had in Canada. A club that would serve as the benchmark for canadian kids to reach in an attempt to produce world class players.

When I heard that TFC wanted to implement a system to build a club in the mold of Ajax I was happy. Very happy.

Now all I've got left to do is wait and see if it's attainable.

....

If TFC pull the plug on what some call an "experiment" for the sake of results and bring back garbage soccer, I'm done.

I have to agree. I'm betting all my emotional currency on this one. For this reason - I'm willing to see it out. It will take 2-3 years. I've waited almost 5. I can wait a couple more. I think WMD aren't done. More will be traded and others brought in before the year is through. I believe in the system. I acknowledge and respect that others don't.

Eugene, you know that I think that Anselmi has to be held responsible. If he fucked this one up, I will print 100s of Anselmi must go T-Shirts and hand them up out street corners.

But first, I need to see that this run it's course. It hasn't yet. It's too soon. This is football - not skeet shooting.

Good night.

profit89
07-21-2011, 10:41 PM
Re Gordon, sour grapes that's all

Re the new signings, for the first time in a long time i see potential of a good team, frings and koevermans are clearly superior in technical ability to anything we've had thus far.

ExiledRed
07-21-2011, 10:41 PM
Here is where I can agree wholeheartedly.

If TFC go back to playing "athletic, technically lacking" football I'm out. Wins or no wins I'll be gone because it's a road to oblivion.

Thats ok, because if TFC dont stop playing confused, awkward football and practically bending over in front of the opposition, you'll be the only one left in the stadium. Glad you enjoy watching this parody of 'attractive posession based, dutch style football'

its not the real deal, its like fake snow during an australian christmas.


If this team and this league doesnt aspire to play a technically proficient league to rival those in south America and Europe then what's the point?

Hey, I aspire to be wealthy one day, I wont get there by dressing up in an armani suit, pretending im already succesful and hoping people believe it enough to give me money.



Moreover...I see the need to get away from "athletic, technically lacking" football if we're ever going to see canada and Canadian kids compete on the world stage.

By substituting it with inept, heartless and substandard football? I just dont get your point. We know what you want, it would be nice, but if you think thats what you're getting from this coach you're not seeing with your eyes.

By the way, this is TFC not the CMNT. Have you seen how this coach handles candian players?


So..in short...if TFC decide to revert to 80's football for the sake of short term results I'll gladly walk away from my st. And if the canadian footballing mentality remains the same, I'll stop supporting the cmnt too.

80's football? like the dutch style this is all supposed to be built upon?
again see my first point, the team will lose a lot more revenue than yours if they keep pretending dogshit is belgian chocolate.



I'll happily be a euro/south American football snob because there will be nothing to look forward to here.

...

I still dont get it, you'll stick it out only if this team continues to fail at a dutch based 4-3-3 system?


This is my main reason for supporting winter and de Klerk.

Not because I love them, or because I think they're brilliant but because I want them to succeed in their plans. I want the plans to succeed because I think it would be good for football in general in this city and in this country and that's what I want more than anything.

Like I said, Winter isnt going to give you what you want anytime soon and theres nothing....NOTHING to suggest he can give you what you want ten years from now. You may as well come back in five years and watch him failing to coach whichever collection of north american players have just arrived on his lap through the pawning system and drafts. Im sure we'll all be ready to nuke holland by then.

nickio
07-21-2011, 10:43 PM
It is all they've ever done...but it's only been 4 seasons.

I know that sounds crazy but I always hoped we'd one day want to build a club that aspires to something better than we've ever had in Canada. A club that would serve as the benchmark for canadian kids to reach in an attempt to produce world class players.

When I heard that TFC wanted to implement a system to build a club in the mold of Ajax I was happy. Very happy.

Now all I've got left to do is wait and see if it's attainable.

If it is...great.

If it isnt and the alternative is the utter shit I watched in the first couple of years (or a more productive version of that garbage brand of football) then my interest in club football in Toronto will once again be gone.

If TFC pull the plug on what some call an "experiment" for the sake of results and bring back garbage soccer, I'm done.


I couldn't agree more. I feel the same, if MLSE even remotely goes back to garbage soccer that focuses on physics instead of technique, I don't have any desire to follow that.

Ajax wasn't built overnight, why should TFC all the sudden become a good team in a matter of months- Considering where we are coming from?!

I mean what did people expect? Start playing an efficient 4-3-3 with a squad that was built for track and field?

Anyone watch Mike Holmes? 80% of his work is destruction to get to the bottom of the problem. If anyone was to walk in when he is 1/3 finished and judge his performance- he would be fired everytime. Let Aron Winter build his house ground up, the right way:

One thing we have never tried in 4.5 years is keep a coach, maybe that would work?!

Gordon and his comments.. He is like a person passing by judging Mike Holmes halfway through his project.

nickio
07-21-2011, 10:54 PM
ExileRed- What exactly did you expect from TFC to justify Aron's plan to you?

-A stellar season?

-A few more wins? (which we would've had if it wasn't for some bad luck and shitty reffing)

No one knows what to expect, therefore judgment is to be reserved until his contract is up, or very close to it.

Just like in any work place, if you're confused, you don't get it and and if you're incompetent- there is the door. Do you think a well respected player like Frings finds Winter's expectations confusing? I don't think any world class player with proper upbringing would!

v00d00daddy
07-21-2011, 10:56 PM
I think its ridiculous to claim that without Winter and De Klerk TFC will automatically become Wimbledon circa 1988. I think its also insulting to ignore the fact that there are teams in the MLS who play attractive football, we lost to one last night

I agree. That's why I didn't claim that anything like that would happen. If we built towards fielding a team like Dallas or rsl I'd be happy.

And I'm not saying that winter or de klerk are the saviours.

I just wanna see if their plans will work.

If the club is not willing to do that and, instead, decide to hire someone who is going to promote long ball, kick and chase, long throws into the box at every opportunity, altheticism over skill (ie: the coaches we've had up to now) then I'm out.

If they fire winter and hire some guy who will have us playing attractive soccer AND getting results...then I'm in. I just don't think it's time to pull the plug on the current guys and what they're trying to do.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 10:56 PM
Winter has lost the room? Considering that the majority of players in the locker room are now his acquisitions, and 7 of those players arrived within the last 2 weeks, I submit that your assertion is highly unlikely, and mere conjecture at this point.

Once again, Gordon's comments aren't a revelation. It was already apparent that some players weren't grasping his tactical approach. As a result, roster transactions have taken place to acquire players that Winter feels are condusive to his desired style of play.

If Winter is to be judged accordingly, it should be within the appropriate timeframe, with his players. The clock started ticking yesterday.


A couple of things.

I agree with you that saying Winter has lost THIS room is foolish. But I am certain that Winter lost the "previous" room. Will he have better communication with this new group? I guess we will have to wait, but a leopard rarely changes his spots.

As for the clock starting ticking yesterday, I am wondering why then we even bothered playing the first half of the season. He should have just trotted out the Academy or Reserves and saved the team a ton of money. I am truly aghast at how willing people are willing to throw away almost 2/3 of a season as it if never happened.

Roogsy
07-21-2011, 10:59 PM
Im sure we'll all be ready to nuke holland by then.

Holy geez I spit out my cereal reading this one. :lol:

v00d00daddy
07-21-2011, 11:09 PM
Honestly...I get it.

You want him fired. That's fine.

But besides that I have zero interest in what you have to say.

Belgian chocolate and fake snow aside...you're not willing to wait and see if this can work.

I guess you think totally overhauling a club and changing the philosophy around it is something that can happen quickly. I don't.

I can accept that it's going to look bad at the beginning. After all, I made it through 4 years of shit with this club. I can handle a little more if I see a light at the end of the tunnel.

Which I do.

You don't. Fine. Good for you. If it fails then you'll be right.

Until then.....

Couchy81
07-21-2011, 11:11 PM
This thread is bursting at the seams with impatience for a good team. Totally warranted.

I feel better about the team right now than I did last year at this time.

Also not to hate on Santos or anything, but if Gordon was in front of the net when that lob came in from Soolsma, we would have had a draw last night. Gonna miss that guy.

Now that the bulk of the old useless team is gone, we will see how well Winter can coach.

barticusz
07-21-2011, 11:11 PM
This whole thread reminds me of Jason De Vos' comments on Canadian player development.

We all focus too much on results. Kids are taught not how to play but only the desire to win. Someone previously mentioned that they support Winter and De Klerk because they are at least attempting to bring in technical ability, something that completely lacks in Canadian player development. I too want this to succeed.

As for Gordons comments about Winter not teaching them anything but passing drills, that tells me right there that Winter really is trying to teach the importance of being technically skilled. This likely seems mundane for most players. I can't see myself enjoying have to pass the ball around for hours on end, but this is what can breed better technical ability. I hope that Winter manages to find a way to communicate his system better to his players so that they can understand it, but I dont' have a problem with what him and De Klerk are attempting to do.

Losing sucks, but if it means that players like Cordon and Henry end up becoming confident on the ball and have the ability to make stretch passes like Frings, than I'm sold.

ExiledRed
07-21-2011, 11:12 PM
I couldn't agree more. I feel the same, if MLSE even remotely goes back to garbage soccer that focuses on physics instead of technique, I don't have any desire to follow that.

I can think of several games under previous coaches where players exhibited great technique and won games decisively with good football. The 4-0 at Dallas comes to mind, the 2-1 against Cruz Azul, 4-1 against Chicago. These games werent a case of the GK hoofing the ball into the oppositions box (saw a lot of that last night by the way), they were good games. Id like to see more of those to be honest, I'd like to go back to a time when the team had the ability to win games. I dont buy that we need to be crap in order to get better, its nonsense.


Ajax wasn't built overnight, why should TFC all the sudden become a good team in a matter of months- Considering where we are coming from?!

five seasons is not 'overnight' and spare me the notion that when a new coach comes in we might as well be at year one again. If this were the case every team that got a new coach after performing badly would be bottom of the league for a whole season.

This leagues not even 20 years old, there is parity, franchising , a single entity and all that. Whatever Ajax's history is will be so different from any MLS team that the analogy doesnt hold up at all. Youd think we had relegation and coming up through the divisions shit to contend with.

Put it this way, I suspect no other team in this league has had or will have as bad a start as we have over 5 years.

Why us?


I mean what did people expect? Start playing an efficient 4-3-3 with a squad that was built for track and field?


I didnt expect this, but it looks like Winter did from here. Otherwise he would have eased into the system and kept us competetive. The arrogance of this coach is astounding.


Anyone watch Mike Holmes? 80% of his work is destruction to get to the bottom of the problem. If anyone was to walk in when he is 1/3 finished and judge his performance- he would be fired everytime.

No he wouldnt, because he's mike holmes, has a proven track record and could explain quite succintly why the house was in the state you mention.

Someone with no experience who cant answer questions or explain the progress properly would likely be fired though.


Let Aron Winter build his house ground up, the right way:

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/files/images/080904_house1.jpg

thing we have never tried in 4.5 years is keep a coach, maybe that would work?!

This is because weve never had a good coach. I dont have a good car, its not going to get better if i keep it around. It might improve a bit if i throw money at it, but theres a limit to how much it can be improved realistically.


and his comments.. He is like a person passing by judging Mike Holmes halfway through his project.

No, this is absurd. He's like someone who worked in the house alongside Mike Holmes for 5 months, saw everything he did off camera, heard him swearing at the make up artists and saw him cutting corners when he thought nobody was looking.

TFCin110
07-21-2011, 11:15 PM
I am somewhat confused with all this negativity towards "North American" players. Guess what, this is the MLS, that's what we are going to have. Do we really think we're going to fill the roster with top European on a budget of two and a half million?

There are some here who say ridiculous things like "if you don't like what you see then get out"...well if you don't like the level of North American talent, maybe MLS isn't for you and you should go back to following the EPL? Because Winter arriving isnt' going to change the talent level of North American soccer. All he's going to do is frustrate himself for 1 or 2 years that he isn't working with soccer prodigies that have the talent to play in the top leagues in the world. You'd think he wouldn't have realized this fact before he took on the job. Meanwhile, the competent coaches in this league are squeezing the best they can out of the athletic but technically lacking players that North America produces and get the results they can. Meanwhile we try to turn Harden into Heitinga.

I don't know where you are getting that from when he has stated time and time again that he wants to build his squad through our academy.

TFCin110
07-21-2011, 11:20 PM
A couple of things.

I agree with you that saying Winter has lost THIS room is foolish. But I am certain that Winter lost the "previous" room. Will he have better communication with this new group? I guess we will have to wait, but a leopard rarely changes his spots.

As for the clock starting ticking yesterday, I am wondering why then we even bothered playing the first half of the season. He should have just trotted out the Academy or Reserves and saved the team a ton of money. I am truly aghast at how willing people are willing to throw away almost 2/3 of a season as it if never happened.

Throwing away the season and realizing a new regime needs time to stamp it's mark on the team are 2 different things. I don't think it's fair to trivialize people's patience as throwing away 2/3 of the season.

ExiledRed
07-21-2011, 11:23 PM
ExileRed- What exactly did you expect from TFC to justify Aron's plan to you?

visible evidence that the plan is a good one, is working and that everybody is on board with it.


-A few more wins? (which we would've had if it wasn't for some bad luck and shitty reffing)

oh please.....


No one knows what to expect, therefore judgment is to be reserved until his contract is up, or very close to it.

this is a well studied, well understood sport, its not voodoo and its not wacky science.

You dont have to wait till the end of the play, to know that it was crap and the actors flubbed their lines.


Just like in any work place, if you're confused, you don't get it and and if you're incompetent- there is the door. Do you think a well respected player like Frings finds Winter's expectations confusing? I don't think any world class player with proper upbringing would!

Frings isnt going to find Winter confusing.,...Frings isnt the issue here, Frings and Winter have a lot in common.

The problem youre missing is we dont have a squad full of "world class players with proper upbringing " and the players we do have dont seem to be too enthused about the coach......big problem.

69Chevy396
07-21-2011, 11:26 PM
This whole thread reminds me of Jason De Vos' comments on Canadian player development.

We all focus too much on results. Kids are taught not how to play but only the desire to win. Someone previously mentioned that they support Winter and De Klerk because they are at least attempting to bring in technical ability, something that completely lacks in Canadian player development. I too want this to succeed.

As for Gordons comments about Winter not teaching them anything but passing drills, that tells me right there that Winter really is trying to teach the importance of being technically skilled. This likely seems mundane for most players. I can't see myself enjoying have to pass the ball around for hours on end, but this is what can breed better technical ability. I hope that Winter manages to find a way to communicate his system better to his players so that they can understand it, but I dont' have a problem with what him and De Klerk are attempting to do.

Losing sucks, but if it means that players like Cordon and Henry end up becoming confident on the ball and have the ability to make stretch passes like Frings, than I'm sold.

Pro soccer players should know how to play any system or they are bums, not professional athletes.

ag futbol
07-21-2011, 11:31 PM
I don't know where you are getting that from when he has stated time and time again that he wants to build his squad through our academy.
Can people please stop writing this. Successful or not academy results will come through at glacial speed, not going to save our bacon.

ExiledRed
07-21-2011, 11:35 PM
I don't know where you are getting that from when he has stated time and time again that he wants to build his squad through our academy.

Then why bother having a first team at all? Seriously, are they just running out the lads out of an obligation to MLS, while the kids develop?

I love this attitude that its OK to turn a whole season into a series of meaningless friendlies. The games cant be true indicators of the teams strength, cause a) its only the supporting act while the kids warm up and b) winter is using the games to figure shit out, despite the fact that people are paying to see the team actually try to compete.

Have you any idea how long it will take to build the squad around the academy? How likely is it that the academy will provide enough players to compete against the rest of the league? and those players will all be here for life?
No team should depend on its academy for anything more than one or two good players a season.

TFCin110
07-21-2011, 11:51 PM
Then why bother having a first team at all? Seriously, are they just running out the lads out of an obligation to MLS, while the kids develop?

I love this attitude that its OK to turn a whole season into a series of meaningless friendlies. The games cant be true indicators of the teams strength, cause a) its only the supporting act while the kids warm up and b) winter is using the games to figure shit out, despite the fact that people are paying to see the team actually try to compete.

Have you any idea how long it will take to build the squad around the academy? How likely is it that the academy will provide enough players to compete against the rest of the league? and those players will all be here for life?
No team should depend on its academy for anything more than one or two good players a season.

I love how you've added your own thoughts to my one line post. lol. Look, with the shittyness that is MLS, its not impossible to get 5 or 6 good academy kids to step up to the first with a system and ideology they've using since they were 10.the point to is that a good established academy playing one system and with good coaches can produce players that step right in to the first team. That's what Winter was hired on so if people were against that from the start then fine, but to all of a sudden jump all ove the guy because we've been shit for 2/3 of season is a little unreasonable. One or 2 good players a season in MLS I think is inaccurate based on the talent level in the league.

ExiledRed
07-21-2011, 11:51 PM
wax on, wax off

theres no way in hell you can really beat a third dan black belt in a karate tournament by waxing cars and painting houses for a week or two.

great movie though.

TFCin110
07-21-2011, 11:57 PM
Passing drills apply to any formation or system, it's basic, it's not going to help them play the new system, cover for each others roles, score goals or keep posession under pressure.

This is what "Its nice not to be treated like a kid again" meant

Its like when I was in cadets and the march was off, so the drill sergeant made us hold up our left hand and shout "this is my left hand" then hold up the right and shout "this is my right hand"

for two hours.

Do you think that was necessary for the cadets to get what 'left and right' are? Of course not, he was disciplining us through denigration.

:facepalm: and how do you learn this? By constantly doing passing drills. The best teams in the world don't do anything different than MLS sides in training, they just do a lot more of it. Clearly MLS players have the first touch of a rapist so in system that requires players to be extremely comfortable on the ball, constantly doing passing drills seems like a good way to imbed this principle. The4 soccer edumication on here amazes me sometimes.

nickio
07-21-2011, 11:58 PM
and the players we do have dont seem to be too enthused about the coach......big problem.

That statement is about as credible as the rest of the post.

Roogsy
07-22-2011, 12:19 AM
Then why bother having a first team at all? Seriously, are they just running out the lads out of an obligation to MLS, while the kids develop?

I love this attitude that its OK to turn a whole season into a series of meaningless friendlies. The games cant be true indicators of the teams strength, cause a) its only the supporting act while the kids warm up and b) winter is using the games to figure shit out, despite the fact that people are paying to see the team actually try to compete.

Have you any idea how long it will take to build the squad around the academy? How likely is it that the academy will provide enough players to compete against the rest of the league? and those players will all be here for life?
No team should depend on its academy for anything more than one or two good players a season.

I am shocked at the degree of dependance being put on the academy. I have stated Winter is a gamble for TFC but this pressure on the Academy goes beyond gambling into the realm of "pigs fly" territory. Does anyone have any evidence that an MLS squad can be built on the back of their Academy?

TFCin110
07-22-2011, 12:26 AM
I am shocked at the degree of dependance being put on the academy. I have stated Winter is a gamble for TFC but this pressure on the Academy goes beyond gambling into the realm of "pigs fly" territory. Does anyone have any evidence that an MLS squad can be built on the back of their Academy?

No, and it could all blowup. Nut if the guy was hired based on his academy structure plan, should we not wait until he has produced his first crop of academy players to judge him? If you are against the academy style plan and the time it will take then that's fine, but put just put it out there now is all.

Roogsy
07-22-2011, 12:36 AM
To be perfectly honest I think the idea of judging Winter based on the "first crop of Academy players"is just about the worst idea I've heard as to how Winter should be evaluated. A "good plan" isn't just about managing the long term health of a club. It has to also be about managing the short term, in fact that's even more important. Because without short-term success, you can kiss the long-term plans good-bye. Not to mention, why entrust someone who cant manage the "now" anyways? A good coach is more than a developer of young talent which I am not even sure he is?

Besides, shouldn't it be the head of the Academy that gets evaluated on the talent produced not the coach of the senior team?

TFCin110
07-22-2011, 12:45 AM
To be perfectly honest I think the idea of judging Winter based on the "first crop of Academy players"is just about the worst idea I've heard as to how Winter should be evaluated. A "good plan" isn't just about managing the long term health of a club. It has to also be about managing the short term, in fact that's even more important. Because without short-term success, you can kiss the long-term plans good-bye. Not to mention, why entrust someone who cant manage the "now" anyways? A good coach is more than a developer of young talent which I am not even sure he is?

Besides, shouldn't it be the head of the Academy that gets evaluated on the talent produced not the coach of the senior team?

Well, the head of the academy to an extent, but the training, tactics, system, etc. will all come down to the manager and his staff. The head of the academy will be evaluated on how he delivers the manager's message to the kids. If we are shit and this plan comes to nothing then management will have to look at whether its the message or the way its being delivered which is the problem.

Look, your questions are valid. The team is shit right now. Basically this comes down to 2 camps of supporters. Those who are willing to give Winter the time, and those who want him out now.

jloome
07-22-2011, 12:52 AM
I agree. That's why I didn't claim that anything like that would happen. If we built towards fielding a team like Dallas or rsl I'd be happy.

And I'm not saying that winter or de klerk are the saviours.

I just wanna see if their plans will work.

If the club is not willing to do that and, instead, decide to hire someone who is going to promote long ball, kick and chase, long throws into the box at every opportunity, altheticism over skill (ie: the coaches we've had up to now) then I'm out.

If they fire winter and hire some guy who will have us playing attractive soccer AND getting results...then I'm in. I just don't think it's time to pull the plug on the current guys and what they're trying to do.

There are points in their MLS careers where Jason Kreis, Schellas Hyndman and Sigi Schmidt all had horrible runs and team rebuild situations like ours. I remember when Schmidt first went to Columbus, listening to their fans on Big Soccer bitch about what a total idiot he was.

I take all this certainty with a grain of salt. A team doesn't commit to a new system that runs thorugh every age group of its system -- and spend $17 million on a youth training facility at the same time -- if it isn't committed to continuing with it. That's not to say it can't be under someone other than Winter, but it makes the likelihood they're going to get rid of him based on premature bitching here exceptionally slim.

If by the start of his second season proper we aren't ready to playoff compete, then I'll join the chorus. But I see it taking at least that long, so you can imagine how much time MLS will give him. Judging anything at this early a stage just seems foolish. I see bad signs, too, but bad signs are not always the whole story.

Roogsy
07-22-2011, 01:04 AM
Well, the head of the academy to an extent, but the training, tactics, system, etc. will all come down to the manager and his staff. The head of the academy will be evaluated on how he delivers the manager's message to the kids. If we are shit and this plan comes to nothing then management will have to look at whether its the message or the way its being delivered which is the problem.

Look, your questions are valid. The team is shit right now. Basically this comes down to 2 camps of supporters. Those who are willing to give Winter the time, and those who want him out now.


I dunno. I just don't know of any team on this planet that judges their head coach of the senior team by the results or talent produced by the Academy and I don't see why we should be the first.

As for time...I have never disagreed that time is necessary to get to the ultimate results, whether it be the MLS Cup or Supporter's Shield or other type of notable success. But that is the fallacy in the accusation against those of us on this side of the opinion. None of us are asking for that in this first year, not even in the 2nd year. Our argument is quite simply that regardless of the rebuild, any team that plays this poorly, that gets outscored this much, that has this much trouble scoring, that has this much drama and contract squabbling...that a team like that isn't in the shape it is in because of the rebuild. That is a sign of poor management and no team in MLS that has been rebuilt properly went through this kind of incompetence for this long a period of time.

7 months after his hiring, this team got beat 5-0 and 2-0 in consecutive weeks. It got beat 6-2 the month before. Those results may...MAY have been understandable in the first few weeks of his regime, but not after 2.5 months of preseason, an entire NCC tournament and 21 weeks of regular season. On most professional clubs, the manager would have been sacked by now. The case is even more condemning when you factor in issues like parity, cap space and a practically full stadium.

Now given these facts...for me to have faith and give Winter "time" I'd need something to balance the scales. It has been a fruitless endeavour to get someone to give us something to grasp and hold on to in order to believe in the newly minted saviour. All we get is this argument of "time". You could give me 10 years and I won't get this club to where it needs to be. What makes Winter deserving of any time other than Anselmi's decision to hire him?

JuliquE
07-22-2011, 05:48 AM
I may take a bit of flack for this.. but it's okay, because I have on my crucifying-shorts and a clean pair of underwear - boxer-briefs, if you must know - ready to meet my maker.



Does it seem, to any of you, like inside info. from this board (and probably others, but I couldn't say), is often shared with an underlying motive to gain status points?

Under the thin veil of "hoping they're wrong," people will proceed to post information that they know will only fan the flames -- like giving a child candy and asking him/her not to eat it. It's widely agreed by most that Winter should stay on, at least until this time next season.. but then the same people of whom subscribe to the importance of us keeping a coach for more than one season will go out of their way to discredit him and stir the pot.

I liked what Alan Gordon had to say before he left (whilst it was still his problem), when he mentioned about it being important to believe in the coach and his system.. because if you start to question and doubt, it doesn't help things (if someone could find and post his direct quote, that'd be great).

I don't fully agree with it, though; I believe that timing is everything and it would be important to simply show your support throughout the season, reserving criticisms for when things are winding down and over the course of the off-season (less distracting).

I just feel like, instead of looking to be the person that start "this" or "that" conversation - the coveted OP, as it were - we should ask ourselves if posting this information is truly, as you would claim, in the best interest of the club. Maybe it's just a timing thing, but I get the impression that, for many, this is more of a popularity contest and the media will only follow suit.

profit89
07-22-2011, 05:51 AM
In my opinion, dallas is the most talented team in mls. They have a load of talented, young south american players,

Globetrotter
07-22-2011, 06:06 AM
people on boards like these love to hear themselves speak, and think very highly of themselves. the chance to be the king in a world of serfdom.

menefreghista
07-22-2011, 06:12 AM
If anyone reads Dutch, you can find some info here.

http://www.ajaxupdate.nl/2009/05/tussentijdse-verklaring-afc-ajax/

If you look towards the middle-end of the news piece, it mentions Aron Winter being released by the club. Adrie Koster, who was coaching with him, left at the same time. But since Koster had a more extensive coaching background he wound up moving to Bruges.

This is from May 2009.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/aron-winter/aufeinenblick/trainer_771.html

Thanks so much for finding this.

I initially though he left Ajax in April of 2010. But this makes it even worse.

We are putting all our faith into a guy that was unemployed for 1.5 seasons. Not sure how TFC fans built this guys reputation up so high. I kind of feel like we've been swindled.

Menelaos
07-22-2011, 06:14 AM
I'll agree with some of what you said.

I have never put too much stock into something said by someone traded away. Lets be honest, there has to be a feeling of being unwanted and nobody likes that. So, is it possible they will say stuff to get back at someone? Of course.

As for status points, while there are so many experts and insiders on these boards, anyone with 1/2 a brain can tell the morons from the ones who might actually know a thing or two. Just do what the rest of us do, ignore those who you think are full of it.

Oldtimer
07-22-2011, 06:18 AM
I am shocked at the degree of dependance being put on the academy. I have stated Winter is a gamble for TFC but this pressure on the Academy goes beyond gambling into the realm of "pigs fly" territory. Does anyone have any evidence that an MLS squad can be built on the back of their Academy?

No one has any evidence that the academy will work, but almost every MLS team is going in this direction, so if it doesn't, then all of the teams are stupid.

No one has any evidence that it won't work, either.

I'll go with the academy, as 95% of the footballing world does it this way, and I'll choose them over the NCAA.

On a related note, no one has evidence that Winter will be a winning coach. No one has evidence that he won't either (2/3 of a rebuilding season isn't evidence, Kreis was a loser in the same time frame).

So we could go with, say, a proven MLS winner like Frank Yallop, the guy who gave DeRo his big chance. He built the original San Jose (later Houston) into a powerhouse in the MLS 1.0 days. Oh wait... he hasn't won anything in the modern MLS 2.0. San Jose isn't even in a playoff spot. But that would make everyone happy because he's a proven winning MLS coach who sees great talent like DeRo, and doesn't trade them away.

Let's face it, MLS is changing, and going back to old ways isn't going to help this team.

What will hurt this team is taking a "win now" perspective like New York. Despite going through coaches like toilet paper, and now hiring a proven Euro coach, and despite thrashing us 5-0, an MLS Cup, or any trophy, really, seems as hopeless as ever.

Pookie
07-22-2011, 06:23 AM
Lots of commentary related to Winter focusing on basic technical skills.

Why is it so hard to believe that a coach, in a DEVELOPEMENTAL league would want to work on these skills? If I am a young guy with transfer aspirations, this is what I need, technical skill.

If I am Gordon, if I had technical skill, I probably wouldn't be here. My game can only improve.

As for the hockey stuff a few pages back, pros work on the basics all the time. Including skating, passing, shooting and puck handling.

menefreghista
07-22-2011, 06:24 AM
So we could go with, say, a proven MLS winner like Frank Yallop, the guy who gave DeRo his big chance. He built the original San Jose (later Houston) into a powerhouse in the MLS 1.0 days. Oh wait... he hasn't won anything in the modern MLS 2.0. San Jose isn't even in a playoff spot. But that would make everyone happy because he's a proven winning MLS coach who sees great talent like DeRo, and doesn't trade them away.


I hate to nitpick, but San Jose are in the last playoff spot.

And last season they made the final 4.

Why is there this need to continually try to knock Yallop down to defend Winter?

If TFC had similar results the fanbase would be ecstatic.

JuliquE
07-22-2011, 07:13 AM
I'll agree with some of what you said.

I have never put too much stock into something said by someone traded away. Lets be honest, there has to be a feeling of being unwanted and nobody likes that. So, is it possible they will say stuff to get back at someone? Of course.

As for status points, while there are so many experts and insiders on these boards, anyone with 1/2 a brain can tell the morons from the ones who might actually know a thing or two. Just do what the rest of us do, ignore those who you think are full of it.
Not saying that the type of individuals I'm describing above are necessarily "full of it," as far as their info. is concerned (they are probably correct in whatever they're saying and even a broken clock is right, twice a day).. just that their intentions/priorities, with respect to the club's best interests, are suspect.

Not saying to remain silent all season.. but I just feel that certain inside information, at the wrong times, does more harm than good (my opinion, anyway).

Beach_Red
07-22-2011, 07:22 AM
Lots of commentary related to Winter focusing on basic technical skills.

Why is it so hard to believe that a coach, in a DEVELOPEMENTAL league would want to work on these skills? If I am a young guy with transfer aspirations, this is what I need, technical skill.

If I am Gordon, if I had technical skill, I probably wouldn't be here. My game can only improve.

As for the hockey stuff a few pages back, pros work on the basics all the time. Including skating, passing, shooting and puck handling.

As I said, I'm more comfortable with hockey analogies and I apologize for that, but I just wanted to say, sure pros work on the basics AND a game plan.

But what this situation really reminds me of in the New Jersey Devils when Gretzky called them a Mickey Mouse organization. He was right and they set about changing their team. But they didn't try to play the Oilers fast-paced, high-skilled game because they knew they couldn't get the players for that. They got grinders, played the trap, built the defence and won a few Stanley Cups.

Empirical
07-22-2011, 07:22 AM
It's a classic trick of deception. Entertain us with these signings so that fans are distracted from the fundamental problems of this team.

Sounds incredibly expensive. I doubt they are secretly keeping the team poor by not "Fundamentaly" improving it, not in their best interest.

menefreghista
07-22-2011, 07:24 AM
Personally I hope the 'insiders' continue to post the info that they have. That's what makes this place so great, imo.

Its not like the media is doing a good job of breaking interesting TFC stories.

menefreghista
07-22-2011, 07:32 AM
Sounds incredibly expensive. I doubt they are secretly keeping the team poor by not "Fundamentaly" improving it, not in their best interest.

I have no doubt in my mind they want to win. They just don't know how. And the early evidence is that they fucked it up, again.

Personally I think the recent DP signings are more about protecting the season ticket renewal numbers. Its a risk they had to take because despite the patience on this forum most of the fan base wouldn't mind watching the occasional win. And the early results look promising for them. TFC was dominated by Dallas (look at the shot stats) yet there is still a lot of positive energy surrounding the club due to the turnover. The big question is whether they can turn this into real results. If not than the money spent on the new DPs will most likely be a waste.

koryo
07-22-2011, 07:33 AM
It's entirely possible that Winter/De Klerk have trouble explaining their system simply because they've never dealt with players who needed it explaining to them.

I still firmly believe that the root of the team's problem (players not getting what their coaches are asking of them) is a cultural divide.

The Dutch, in particular, don't need to be told how to think laterally, how to creatively use space, because the country they live in demands, and has always demanded, they intuitively learn to do so at a very young age. North America, with its vast expanses, doesn't make the same demand of its population.

What this boils down to is a bad philosophical fit. I don't believe that Winter & De Klerk are incapable, I just think they're in the wrong league.

Just an opinion though.

Oldtimer
07-22-2011, 07:48 AM
The Dutch, in particular, don't need to be told how to think laterally, how to creatively use space, because the country they live in demands, and has always demanded, they intuitively learn to do so at a very young age. North America, with its vast expanses, doesn't make the same demand of its population.

What this boils down to is a bad philosophical fit. I don't believe that Winter & De Klerk are incapable, I just think they're in the wrong league.

Just an opinion though.

Nice theory. I'll offer a different opinion, though. Spain also has vast expanses, and a Dutch-influenced system has worked wonders over there.

CoachGT
07-22-2011, 07:49 AM
What will hurt this team is taking a "win now" perspective like New York. Despite going through coaches like toilet paper, and now hiring a proven Euro coach, and despite thrashing us 5-0, an MLS Cup, or any trophy, really, seems as hopeless as ever.

You need to understand a little about New York's MLS history. MLS had done everything it could in the early years to try and make sure that New York was successful, and it just didn't work. New York is a marquee city and from a league perspective, it is vitally important to have a high quality, winning team there. Despite this belief, New York has changed coaches frequently and with that comes changes in how each coach wants the team to play.

New York is more "Win" than "Win now" and right now they appear to be in the most stable place they've been since MLS was formed. They are looking for the right supplemental peices to make sure that their playoff run doesn't finish the same way as last year.

Oldtimer
07-22-2011, 07:51 AM
Personally I think the recent DP signings are more about protecting the season ticket renewal numbers.

Personally, I don't. Mariner said early on that given the right people being available, they would pick up DP signings.

I'm sure the number-crunchers at ML$E hope that the DP signings help, but even they have to realize that a winning team would do a lot more for those tickets (and what they don't seem to realize is that charging Premier-league prices for MLS is out of line, but I digress).

Suds
07-22-2011, 07:52 AM
Personally I hope the 'insiders' continue to post the info that they have. That's what makes this place so great, imo.

Its not like the media is doing a good job of breaking interesting TFC stories.


I can understand where the OP is coming from, however, I'm glad there are people who pass along information here when they come across it. I guess the people posting need to decide when it's the right and wrong time to share the information and how to present it on here without a bias of opinion.

It's also up to us people reading the information to understand most of what is posted is third-hand information. Internet boards are probably the worst form the the game "Telephone" there is.

The only time I get annoyed is when someone posts something like - I've got some inside info that would change everyone's opinion but I'm not going to post it for whatever reason. In those cases I think people should just not post anything at all.

koryo
07-22-2011, 07:56 AM
Nice theory. I'll offer a different opinion, though. Spain also has vast expanses, and a Dutch-influenced system has worked wonders over there.

But Spain doesn't have a piss-poor developmental infrastructure either.

Oldtimer
07-22-2011, 08:01 AM
But Spain doesn't have a piss-poor developmental infrastructure either.

That has nothing to do with "vast expanses." You're changing the topic. ;)

Anyways, I'm not sure that Winter is a brilliant coach, at least at this stage of his career. But even a mediocre coach will get us into the playoffs if we just keep the course, MLS is set up that way. The only reasons TFC never made it was that we changed coaches and philosophies all the time, and MoJo horribly mis-managed the cap.

I'm much more pleased with Mariner. He'll help TFC a lot in the years to come.

CoachGT
07-22-2011, 08:04 AM
If I am Gordon, if I had technical skill, I probably wouldn't be here. My game can only improve.

Gordon has been a fringe player as long as he has been in MLS. Never a "sure thing" starter in LA - a steady MLS caliber player. Supplemented his income in LA by coaching kids teams as documented in "The Beckham Experiment". He comes to Toronto and, much like Dichio before him, the fans make him a favorite. He has more success in fewer playing minutes than pretty much anyone has ever had here in Toronto, but if you were starting a team, you would hardly choose Alan Gordon as the key piece that you build around.

From day one my biggest complaint about MLS players is their lack of quality first touch. Supplement that with the lack of footballing IQ in most players (they have to think about what they are doing, as opposed to just doing iut because of thousands of hours on the pitch as youngsters doing it). We've had only a handful of players with a true high quality first touch since this team was formed. And not all have been successful. Vitti was as good at it as anyone. Danny D's touch is good, JDG always has been good with control of an incoming ball, and DeRo was better than average at it.

We have more players with that capability today than we've ever had in the lineup at one time. Santos is good, as is Plata and Eckersley on this team. And you see that from Frings based upon his first game, and Danny K looks to have it too.

Back to topic. My opinion on Gordon's comments? I liked Gordon as a person in the few times I spoke with him, and as a player when he was healthy. He was a catalyst on a team that had few. But I think some of his comments originate with his having more success here (and the shot at "star" status) than he's ever had anywhere else. His injuries here only compound that frustration. Winter's comments about Gordon in post game pressers was generally good, but that doesn't speak to the relationship the two had with each other. So if it wasn't great, well, that's what it was. Gordon's comments may be fair in that regard.

But I believe TFC moved a fringe player, not a cornerstone.

JuliquE
07-22-2011, 08:05 AM
Oh man, I love it here -- another big MASH of a 20 - 30-something page thread, all in one.

I was hoping to start a unique conversation about the moral responsibility of those "in the know," but instead it will be forever lost in a random ex-player's comment/complaint thread -- super!

Oh and since this now makes it look like I was directing my comments at anyone in particular: I wasn't; whilst it's possible that the thread you've merged my topic with may have inspired the conversation I was attempting, I was never singling it out.. because it's not a unique instance.

Buh.

koryo
07-22-2011, 08:11 AM
That has nothing to do with "vast expanses." You're changing the topic. ;)

Anyways, I'm not sure that Winter is a brilliant coach, at least at this stage of his career. But even a mediocre coach will get us into the playoffs if we just keep the course, MLS is set up that way. The only reasons TFC never made it was that we changed coaches and philosophies all the time, and MoJo horribly mis-managed the cap.

I'm much more pleased with Mariner. He'll help TFC a lot in the years to come.

No, but putting the two together = players who can't grasp a system like this. Anywho, I'm only thinking out loud. The rest of you, and rightly so, can dismiss it as the ramblings of a diseased mind :D

Agreed on all other points though.

menefreghista
07-22-2011, 08:12 AM
Oh man, I love it here -- another big MASH of a 20 - 30-something page thread, all in one.

But the other sub-forum is so full of clutter from all the topics!

Oldtimer
07-22-2011, 08:14 AM
This thread is really the DeRo thread version 4.0, with the same arguments being re-hashed over and over again... by largely the same people.

menefreghista
07-22-2011, 08:15 AM
This thread is really the DeRo thread version 4.0, with the same arguments being re-hashed over and over again... by largely the same people.

How so? This is the questioning Winter's ability thread.

What does it have to do with De Ro?

ag futbol
07-22-2011, 08:19 AM
people on boards like these love to hear themselves speak, and think very highly of themselves. the chance to be the king in a world of serfdom.
LOL! I regard your comments with suspicion.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001671175/2332779200_600full_austin_powers_in_goldmember_scr eenshot_answer_11_xlarge.jpeg

TOBOR !
07-22-2011, 08:24 AM
Was Winter brought in to put a team on the field for us now / today ? Or was he brought in to develop the culture and, to that end, the academy (and thus building a squad for the future) ?

He's hard-pressed to put a winning side on the pitch with the players that are available to him, using the system that is being taught at academy level. But this is what he has to do, so when players are brought up to the senior team they are playing the system that they have always been taught.

Winter is not to be judged by the performance of this team on the field now, or for the next few seasons. Winter is to be judged by the success of the academy and the senior team as it exists when much of the squad has graduated from there.

For now he's trying to teach old dogs new tricks at senor level, and not getting very far. But believe me, it's the academy that is the true focus.

Oldtimer
07-22-2011, 08:24 AM
My doubts about Winter at this point mainly relate to tactical decisions, and I don't really have an issue with MLS lifers who don't get what Winter is teaching (i.e. I fall into theory #2, the players are crap). The Dutch have a reputation of being stubborn, and while not wanting to typecast, Winter largely fits the stereotype: you're going to play football his way, he's not going to change, or you're gone.

I actually don't have a problem with that as far as the players go. The players at this club have been coddled too much, to the point that (as one article put it) they treat it more like a pastime than a job. Preki was supposed to change all that, but he was forced out by a conspiracy of the usual suspects among the players (the same bunch that got rid of Dale Mitchell as CMNT coach) and some assistant coaches who wanted his job. The culture didn't change. Ship 'em all out, if you have to, I say.

Where I have a problem with Winter's stubborness is that he will always play the same Ajax formation, even when an amateur coach like myself can see that a different formation would work better. Now (as one person put it) Winter has forgotten more about football than all of this board knows put together, but his stubborness keeps him from some sensible changes. Whether this will keep him from forming a winning team (in practice, only about 20% of a team's performance is due to the coach, according to Paul James, the rest is squad quality) remains to be seen.

Beach_Red
07-22-2011, 08:26 AM
That has nothing to do with "vast expanses." You're changing the topic. ;)

Anyways, I'm not sure that Winter is a brilliant coach, at least at this stage of his career. But even a mediocre coach will get us into the playoffs if we just keep the course, MLS is set up that way. The only reasons TFC never made it was that we changed coaches and philosophies all the time, and MoJo horribly mis-managed the cap.

I'm much more pleased with Mariner. He'll help TFC a lot in the years to come.

The set-up of MLS is important in planning team building. You're right, the way it's set up even a mediocre coach can get a team into the playoffs, but the set-up also means that a team is unlikely to stay near the top of the league for extended periods - their best young players will move to higher leagues and the best players coming out of NCAA (and there are some, like the guy who scored against us last game) will go to teams that finished at the bottom of the league.

So, MLS isn't really set-up for long-term, player development, build from within. It's set up as "win now" league, or at least a win within 2-3 years and then start over league.

That's the way parity leagues work, that way fans never feel more than 2-3 years away from being competitive. That's the NFL. Now, of course, some teams are never more than 2-3 years from being competitive (Steelers) and never far out of it and some seem to always be near the bottom (Bengals) but even they have a chance. It comes down to management and the right plan for the league set-up.

I think what we saw here was Mariner and Winter leaving behind the Klinsmann pre-season plan and starting to put together a team that can be competitive in MLS.

backbeat
07-22-2011, 08:30 AM
This thread is really the DeRo thread version 4.0, with the same arguments being re-hashed over and over again... by largely the same people.

in a nutshell..

babone
07-22-2011, 08:32 AM
Gordon has been a fringe player as long as he has been in MLS. Never a "sure thing" starter in LA - a steady MLS caliber player. Supplemented his income in LA by coaching kids teams as documented in "The Beckham Experiment". He comes to Toronto and, much like Dichio before him, the fans make him a favorite. He has more success in fewer playing minutes than pretty much anyone has ever had here in Toronto, but if you were starting a team, you would hardly choose Alan Gordon as the key piece that you build around.

From day one my biggest complaint about MLS players is their lack of quality first touch. Supplement that with the lack of footballing IQ in most players (they have to think about what they are doing, as opposed to just doing iut because of thousands of hours on the pitch as youngsters doing it). We've had only a handful of players with a true high quality first touch since this team was formed. And not all have been successful. Vitti was as good at it as anyone. Danny D's touch is good, JDG always has been good with control of an incoming ball, and DeRo was better than average at it.

We have more players with that capability today than we've ever had in the lineup at one time. Santos is good, as is Plata and Eckersley on this team. And you see that from Frings based upon his first game, and Danny K looks to have it too.

Back to topic. My opinion on Gordon's comments? I liked Gordon as a person in the few times I spoke with him, and as a player when he was healthy. He was a catalyst on a team that had few. But I think some of his comments originate with his having more success here (and the shot at "star" status) than he's ever had anywhere else. His injuries here only compound that frustration. Winter's comments about Gordon in post game pressers was generally good, but that doesn't speak to the relationship the two had with each other. So if it wasn't great, well, that's what it was. Gordon's comments may be fair in that regard.

But I believe TFC moved a fringe player, not a cornerstone.

To add to what I consider a bang on post, movement off the ball and lack of vision and focus are other challenges the MLS players have. All can be corrected but time is the key.

Anyone who did not see change on Wednesday night need to stop sniffing the Zamboni fumes.

As for Gordon, who cares what he thinks TFC is the only place he was relevent and that only happened because of a lack of depth!

Good luck on the bench Alan!

Oldtimer
07-22-2011, 08:34 AM
I think what we saw here was Mariner and Winter leaving behind the Klinsmann pre-season plan and starting to put together a team that can be competitive in MLS.

I actually have no problem with how they are proceeding to build this team, and for the record, I would have gotten rid of DeRo too (although I would have tried to make it work for him overseas, like he wanted, Earl really mis-treated him there).

It makes sense that they would take some time for Winter to learn the league before doing the drastic restructuring. Now he knows what is needed to build a winner in this league. How well he'll do coaching it remains to be seen.

Pookie
07-22-2011, 08:36 AM
As I said, I'm more comfortable with hockey analogies and I apologize for that, but I just wanted to say, sure pros work on the basics AND a game plan.

But what this situation really reminds me of in the New Jersey Devils when Gretzky called them a Mickey Mouse organization. He was right and they set about changing their team. But they didn't try to play the Oilers fast-paced, high-skilled game because they knew they couldn't get the players for that. They got grinders, played the trap, built the defence and won a few Stanley Cups.

Fair enough.

However, in practice Brodeur still worked on his angles, controlling rebounds, his reaction time, stick handling and puck control. The same basics, performed at a higher level of course, that a youngster learns with his coach/goaltending school.

Defensemen worked on zone coverage, passing, shooting (for that odd moment when they counterattacked or had a Powerplay) etc. Forwards on cycling, shooting, etc. All would have had time dedicated to basic skating and conditioning.

And of course, they would have learned a system. For some, a defensive trap system would have been easy to pick up. For others, like offensive minded Scott Neidermayer, it would have been outside their comfort zone.

I just think that the concept that soccer players are incapable of learning a different system is silly when professional athletes all over the world have adapted their styles to fit a new coach, a new team or simply a new role.

Further, the concept that professional athletes, particularly those in a developmental league, are wasting their time on the basics seems absurd when a focus on the basics is what got athletes to the highest levels... and keeps them there.

Much like when Beckham suggested running "Crossing clinics" for players in this league. Not many disagreed that the quality of this "basic" technique was and is lacking in this league.

http://www.soccer-training-info.com/beckham_crossing_clinic.asp

BFin
07-22-2011, 08:39 AM
'Disgruntled former employee doesn't like former boss.'

Consider me shocked.

Beach_Red
07-22-2011, 08:43 AM
I actually have no problem with how they are proceeding to build this team, and for the record, I would have gotten rid of DeRo too (although I would have tried to make it work for him overseas, like he wanted, Earl really mis-treated him there).

It makes sense that they would take some time for Winter to learn the league before doing the drastic restructuring. Now he knows what is needed to build a winner in this league. How well he'll do coaching it remains to be seen.

Yes, I have no problem with the way they're building the team now. I think here were probably some real behind the scenes office politics that needed to get worked out and when Winter came out and said HE was going to start making trades I think it marked a change in the way the team is being run. I think that was really the first time there was any sense that this is going to be Winter's team - not the team leftover from the old regime and not Klinsmann's team, but Winter's.

So yes, it remains to be seen how good a job he can do with it, but I think the "Mariner-Winter" era of TFC has really just started, and started pretty well.

Beach_Red
07-22-2011, 08:52 AM
And of course, they would have learned a system. For some, a defensive trap system would have been easy to pick up. For others, like offensive minded Scott Neidermayer, it would have been outside their comfort zone.

I just think that the concept that soccer players are incapable of learning a different system is silly when professional athletes all over the world have adapted their styles to fit a new coach, a new team or simply a new role.

Further, the concept that professional athletes, particularly those in a developmental league, are wasting their time on the basics seems absurd when a focus on the basics is what got athletes to the highest levels... and keeps them there.



Well, yes, it would have been tough to get offensive players to "buy in" to the system, that's where the skill of the coaches comes in. Interestingly with the Devils, the coach that convinced the players to use that style never played it himself.

And sure, every player works on basics for their entire career, but a good coach takes those basics and makes them part of a cohesive whole.

But also, not all players can play any system. Sports would be boring if that
was the case, the players mere robots.

I think what we're really talking about isn't teaching a system, but which system at which point? I think TFC have, as Whoop said, changed gears. The long-term goal is the same but they've realized there are more (or different) interim steps involved.

And they need to win more games right now, or at least be more competitive, that's just human nature for coaches and athletes.

ensco
07-22-2011, 08:56 AM
So let's say, for the sake of argument, MLSE and the fans loose faith in Klinsman's (and his view that we need to invest in the long-term to see sustainable results) recommendation and sack WMD and we start over every six months until we see a playoff run, would you be satisfied? Or should we sack management until we hear that traded players leave happy and have warm and fuzzy feelings about TFC? Or we sack management until Anselmi looses his job or the team is sold - whichever comes first?

I don't get it. Should we just call BMO field the firing range and stop masquerading that it's a football pitch? Because that will get the "best" coaches and players to want to come here?

I'm sorry but I don't see this as reasonable. But perhaps I'm missing something. Help me understand how this makes sense.

OR

Admit that this is not logical and we are compelled to follow the present course and hope that it is the right one.

I admit this. But "following the present course and hoping" is not logical either. I've completely lost faith that Winter will get it done.

I don't have a solution, other than cutting the amount of money I spend on TFC tickets, which I plan to do.

ManUtd4ever
07-22-2011, 08:58 AM
I have read several well articulated posts regarding the modus operandi of the current regime that are rational as well as objective.

It seems like the majority support the long term implications of the organizational infrastructure that Winter and Co. are trying to implement, and acknowledge that the recent roster acquistions were an attempt to achieve a modicum of success in the short term.

As for the grandiose statements declaring Winter and his current regime an abject failure, it's encouraging to note that the majority are taking those opinions with a grain of salt.

I concur with the majority, and I will observe the club's performance over the next several weeks before making any bold proclamations.

ensco
07-22-2011, 08:59 AM
I agree with you that saying Winter has lost THIS room is foolish. But I am certain that Winter lost the "previous" room.

Jeez guys, for the 6 of you that went after me for this, this is obviously what I meant.

ensco
07-22-2011, 09:01 AM
I concur with the majority, and I will observe the club's performance over the next several weeks before making any bold proclamations.

Three months ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2012.

Three weeks ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2011.

We're down to several weeks from now (OK that may not be what you are saying, but it's sort of the implication).

Pookie
07-22-2011, 09:05 AM
^ Beach Red (or Beechy as he liked to be called... copyright Simpsons)

I'm not sold on the concept that they have changed gears but I'm not sure that they haven't either.

I have to go with the idea that Winter is sticking to a plan. The plan that was likely developed/advised by JK and the plan that he was hired to implement.

- the academy kids are learning it (system and technical)
- the first team is working on it
- players that couldn't grasp it have been moved out in favour of players they say can grasp it

The only real change in variables vs the start of the season seems to be the age of the players brought in. Our DPs are over 30. The others are all over 26.

It could be that the DPs are being used partly to assist with the technical and system learnings (which apparently wasn't going so well, according to Gordon) and partly to improve the competitiveness of the team now.

But they haven't parted with really young players like Plata, Henry, Cordon, etc which doesn't fit with the idea of "win now damn the future."

To be practical though. They have 2 1/2 years on a contract. Clearly, they need results before that contract expires. It would be unfair of us not to assume that isn't a factor.

menefreghista
07-22-2011, 09:06 AM
Three months ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2012.

Three weeks ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2011.

We're down to several weeks from now (OK that may not be what you are saying, but it's sort of the implication).

The bar is always lowered though. Already some are acting like the season just started now. The first 21 games were a write off.

The next test for Winter is the Real Estelli matches. TFC should be able to beat a team that the Impact beat.

Beach_Red
07-22-2011, 09:07 AM
I admit this. But "following the present course and hoping" is not logical either. I've completely lost faith that Winter will get it done.

I don't have a solution, other than cutting the amount of money I spend on TFC tickets, which I plan to do.

Wait and see on that. Are you sure we haven't changed course? Absentee bosses are always tough and maybe we're only now going to see Winter and Mariner making their own modifications to the "Klinsmann plan." sure, everyone wants to plan for the long-term, but Winter only has two and a half years leftt on his contrat and then he'll need another job. Having the worst record on MLS history on his resume won't help him if the long-term plan starts paying dividends in five years.

See how the rest of the year plays out, how Winter does with the handcuffs removed.

ensco
07-22-2011, 09:10 AM
The next test for Winter is the Real Estelli matches. TFC should be able to beat a team that the Impact beat.

These two Esteli games are a minefield. I actually feel sorry for Winter on this. We're in training camp here. This setup, where the second leg is an Central America, is not great. I am certain the ref in the Arabe Unido game was crooked. We could easily go out, at which point I will look reasonable compared to what the majority will want to do to Winter.

It may will have been far better for Winter to go out in the thunderstorm in May, and just blame the rain and the former players.

Oldtimer
07-22-2011, 09:14 AM
Three months ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2012.

Three weeks ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2011.

We're down to several weeks from now (OK that may not be what you are saying, but it's sort of the implication).






The next test for Winter is the Real Estelli matches. TFC should be able to beat a team that the Impact beat.


I'm sorry, ensco, but the bar has moved yet again. We're down to one match! :lol:

menefreghista
07-22-2011, 09:15 AM
It may will have been far better for Winter to go out in the thunderstorm in May, and just blame the rain and the former players.

I wonder how bad the July 27 home game is selling? I wonder if they even want to try to sell 3 more games on top of that?

Although this team could use all the positive news it can get. That probably trumps all.

ManUtd4ever
07-22-2011, 09:15 AM
I admit this. But "following the present course and hoping" is not logical either. I've completely lost faith that Winter will get it done.

I don't have a solution, other than cutting the amount of money I spend on TFC tickets, which I plan to do.

At this point in time, it's illogical to come to any conclusions one way or another.

I haven't read a single post declaring Winter as the savior of this franchise, yet you and a few others are already certain that his long term vision and short term plan are destined to fail. If 90 minutes of of football is all you require to evaluate the rebuilt roster, I envy your sense of intuitiveness.

I genuinely respect your opinion, but I don't understand the incessant need to convince everyone else that patience is not required, or the notion that it is irrational to have faith in a plan that hasn't even been given a fair chance to come to fruition.

Inevitably, you may be right, but can we observe the new roster for a few games first?