Gordon dishes on TFC, Winter

[JuliquE]

This is the one,right? ;)
*sigh* It was, yeh -- couple other replies to go along with it, as well.

I'll try and identify them and PM you the links? Believe they were mostly on the same page and the one that follows, before getting lost away in Gordon's dish.

Thanks.

[Blixa]

I'm currently in Belize, but as i was flying out of Toronto on Saturday morning, I bumped into Alan Gordon. Said I'm a huge fan, asked about his trade. He's a great guy, very cool and very nice and he was VERY candid about his short time at TFC. Take this for what you will, I'm sure some of this is sour grapes, but it's definitely interesting insight.

He said he believes he was traded because he got into a fight with a trainer over being forced to play too much too sun while recovering from injury. He said he was barely supposed to play in the Houston game, for instance.

As far as coaching goes, I said to him that to me, Winter resembles Ruud Gullit. He said: "I've played for both of them. They're the exact same person."

He said the coaches have done a horrible job explaining the "system' to the players and added that many just don't get it. He said they do a lot of passing drills in practice, more than he's ever seen, but when a player asks a question about how the system works beyond just "attacking, possession-oriented football," there are no answers. Players are just running around in confusion.

He said he thinks Winter is completely lost, in way over his head, and that he feels bad for the fans and the supporters because this team is not going to be very successful any time soon.

I wrapped up my chat with him by wishing him good luck, but asking him to take it easy when TFC plays San Jose next. :D

It's also possible that these players are quite simply too stupid to get the system.

[ensco]

Ensco, if I misinterpreted your post, then I retract my statement.

However, your post unequivocally stated that the forum is dominated by people that have grown to automatically side with management, and that it was a sad reflection on the forum as a whole. In actuality, the majority of posters have been neutral in their assessment of the subject matter of this thread.

Furthermore, you insinuated that anyone who doesn't share your opinion in criticizing management have twisted facts to support their position.

As for Winter's comments, we will agree to disagree. It is a matter of opinion as to whether his comments were directed at Nana, and whether they were appropriate or not.

You didn't misunderstand. I probably spoke too strongly.

I guess we have a different understanding of the implications/meaning of "neutrality" in this case. Feels like unwarranted support for Winter, to me. Anyway, I understand your position.

[JuliquE]

There is a very good chance that posters would repeat themselves in both threads and we would end up with 2 exactly the same threads.

one started with negativity,other more positive ,but at the end both will end up being a bitch fest,so it's better have one big bitch fest than two.
As Tiberius had done, before me, I thank you for your response and you raise a valid point. Shows a lot of class, from you.

I would argue, however, that much of what's said on these boards is just a rehashing of old opinions.. so not much different to have people repeating themselves sooner, rather than later.

I can appreciate the difficulty for a moderator and would have no problems seeing priority given to one thread, whilst the other one is locked -- JUST DON'T MERGE IT; it's more valuable in it's locked and unaltered state, not to be carried away with the tide (monster threads).

The other problem with doing this is what I had already pointed out, earlier:

people will see my merged post as a direct response to them and are more likely to take it negatively (see DangerRed's initial reply), only adding fuel to the fire that is this "bitch fest," as you had called it.

Again: lock and explain (to be fair, this is often done on these boards), but a merger is just splashing gasoline on a fire and strips the board of any nuanced views/perspectives. :)

[ManUtd4ever]

You didn't misunderstand. I probably spoke too strongly.

I guess we have a different understanding of the implications/meaning of "neutrality" in this case. Feels like unwarranted support for Winter, to me. Anyway, I understand your position.

No worries Ensco.

I understand your point of view as well, which is why I'm not sold on Winter yet as a capable coach of this team.

Based on the play of most of the new additions to the roster thus far, I would personally give him and Mariner a passing grade as talent recruiters, but by the same token, the impetus is far greater now for Winter to start earning results.

[Roogsy]

If your thread was merged,send PM or report it to the mods we can always unmerge it if it makes sense.

Err...I'm not sure if you know this but no, you cannot unmerge once it has been merged. Which is a big reason why merging should not be done carelessly in the first place.

[Roogsy]

Do you realize that Winter can't win with you under your hypothesis (and I'm using the term extremely loosely)?

In your view:

Poor results = poor coaching
Better results = better players covering up "his shortcomings"

What's the point in commenting on his coaching when you've already reached a conclusion as to his abilities, regardless of the outcome?

I'm sorry but it is absurd.

Not at all. My opinion is more than a hypothesis, its a widely held belief about coaching in ALL sports. But only if you characterize it accurately which you have not done. My point is not that "poor results = poor coaching" but once again you've twisted my comments into something they are not. You guys say my DeRo views colour my views of Winter but I think what is more apparent is that your obvious dislike of me or my views colour your understanding of my points because very rarely have I seen you summarize my beliefs or opinions accurately and it does not make for a progressive discussion. So all I will answer henceforth is "that does not accurately describe my opinion" and nothing more. When you begin being less disingenuous with my points, I will address your questions once again. But my time will not be spent disproving false claims about my position.

[Roogsy]

I read your posts, but you still haven't specified in a logical and coherent manner why you think Winter is incompetent, apart from some player's complaints. You keep going back to immediate results, which everyone on the "wait and see" side says is totally irrelevant.

This post floors me. It has not only been me, but also several others that have repeatedly detailed our beefs with Winter's coaching abilities. The fact that you have the gall to say I have not specified what these beefs are is incredible. But I will tell you what, I will do it one more time if you promise NEVER again to claim that my problem with Winter was the DeRo because I have repeatedly said it is not it and yet you stubbornly keep claiming it is. Not to say it did not contribute to my position, but I can PROVE to you that my negativity on Winter began WEEKS before DeRo was shipped out and anyone could possibly know how that particular situation was going to pan out. Are you ready to make that deal?


Look Roogsy, you're a good man, and I respect you for what you've done for the game here in Toronto (including some real sacrifices), but it really looks like you've lost all objectivity. It really looks like what made you decide against Winter was the trading of DeRo, as your decision that he was a "poor coach" seemed to coincide with that on a timeline. Maybe you can correct us if this is a false impression. (It's not like I don't have doubts about him myself).

See above.


I'll decide to ignore your own ad hominem argument against me in the interest of preserving some sanity here, but look up 6 posts from this one. Peace.

Whatever James. Your M.O. has consistenyly been to avoid addressing specific issues raised by dismissing them as simply being personal grudges and you have avoided answering challenges directly. That is the very definition of an ad hominem argument and I don't do that. Almost to a fault, I make sure to address each point raised that challenges my own points, which as a result causes my post-count to increase and therefore people to complain about my dominating presence in these types of threads. You on the other hand do "drive-by" ad hominem attacks and then when challenged you revert to the "I know you're going to argue the point so why bother?" excuse which belies the very point of engaging on a debate board and sees you exit a debate without having to back up your claims. Case in point: your claim that my Winter dislike is because of 1 single player.

[JuliquE]

Err...I'm not sure if you know this but no, you cannot unmerge once it has been merged. Which is a big reason why merging should not be done carelessly in the first place.
Oh? I run a little phpBB3 forum and, last I checked, you're able to "split" topics and use those you've spliced to start a new one (requiring you title it and so on). You would select all the posts you want to carry over and then split it, when ready. You're also able to later merge individual posts with any other thread.

Not sure if it works the same way here, though.

[Shakes McQueen]

Oh? I run a little phpBB3 forum and, last I checked, you're able to "split" topics and use those you've spliced to start a new one (requiring you title it and so on). You would select all the posts you want to carry over and then split it, when ready. You're also able to later merge individual posts with any other thread.

Not sure if it works the same way here, though.

But even in the case of phpBB, you still would have to comb through the merged and select all of the posts that are going into the split thread, which is difficult when a merged thread only displays posts in chronological order.

Not familiar enough with vBulletin to comment on whether even that limited option is possible.

- Scott

[JuliquE]

If you can believe it, I've combed through the thread to find the relevant posts to the thread I started and sent it to big D in a PM -- was really enjoying the exchange, before all of this.

But, like you, I'm not sure if even this limited option is available.

[Pookie]

Not at all. My opinion is more than a hypothesis, its a widely held belief about coaching in ALL sports. But only if you characterize it accurately which you have not done. My point is not that "poor results = poor coaching" but once again you've twisted my comments into something they are not. You guys say my DeRo views colour my views of Winter but I think what is more apparent is that your obvious dislike of me or my views colour your understanding of my points because very rarely have I seen you summarize my beliefs or opinions accurately and it does not make for a progressive discussion. So all I will answer henceforth is "that does not accurately describe my opinion" and nothing more. When you begin being less disingenuous with my points, I will address your questions once again. But my time will not be spent disproving false claims about my position.

I find it hard to think that quoting you is mischaracterizing your hypothesis.

- You point to results as "proof" of Winter's poor coaching
- You claim that by acknowledging we had an under talented team, it just covered up his weakness
- You claim that better players will cover up his shortcomings

Where can Winter get a passing grade from you with these statements? It is impossible.

The majority of us recognize the following:

poor results can be attributed to one or a combination of the following: poor coaching, fitness, preparation, injury, fatigue, poor execution of a game plan, motivation, focus, poor individual match ups, environment, opponent's skill, etc.

positive results also have a factor or combination of factors including: good coaching, fitness, preparation, lack of injury, opponent fatigue, execution of a game plan, motivation, focus, favourable individual match ups, environment, opponent's skill, etc.

In your view of Winter, the record is king. It highlights his "weakness" if it is poor. If it is good, it "covers up his shortcomings." There appears to be no wiggle room in your view.

That's fine. Just come out and say you want him fired and there is nothing he can do to change your view.

[Oldtimer]

you have avoided answering challenges directly. That is the very definition of an ad hominem argument and I don't do that. Almost to a fault, I make sure to address each point raised that challenges my own points, which as a result causes my post-count to increase and therefore people to complain about my dominating presence in these types of threads.

I pointed you to my earlier post for a simple reason: you haven't actually answered my arguments. You selectively took one point, and acted as if that dismissed my entire post. I forget what that kind of debating tactic is called, I tend not to remember the latin names and such, but it certainly doesn't aid in understanding. How can I discuss things with you when you do that? Meanwhile, I'll take your word that you had doubts about Winter long before DeRo was shipped out.

Why I like to discuss things, I learn from them. I think that Beach Red's point, for example, of Winter probably just now actually getting some authority an interesting one, and he's pointed out some evidence for his view. That thought had never occurred to me until he brought it up, but it's a good idea, and he's pretty-well convinced me by this point. I don't really have much vested interest in convincing people of my point of view.

What I don't like doing is arguing with people with deeply entrenched positions. It's pointless. One writer once said, "just because you've silenced someone doesn't mean you've convinced him." I think no truer words have been written. Well, you're silencing me, only because I just don't have the stomach for this argument... but you haven't won a convert. Consider it weakness if you will, I don't really care anymore.

I'll let Pookie carry the torch for the "wait and see group" from here on in. He expresses himself very well, much better than I do, and has a very articulate, well-considered opinion.

[rocker]

Have any evidence that he is a good MLS coach? Put it forward and it would go a long way to proving my claims wrong. I'd really like to see such evidence. Otherwise, the "theory" is just a dig.

Let's try this a different way... provide evidence (facts, not opinion) that other coaches in MLS are good coaches. But don't use win-loss record. Cuz I know you said, for example, that Preki's good win-loss record for Chivas was not reflective of his ability as a coach, since Bob Bradley handed him a stacked team apparently. And guys like Kreis, Schmidt, Nicol, and even Arena have had poor seasons in their histories.

I just can't get a grip on what makes a good coach in this league.. something factual, something that isn't opinion.

Win-loss is probably all we have for "objective" measures, but as I said, guys like Schmidt and Kreis have won MLS Cups and had good teams and then also had some of the worst squads in MLS history according to win-loss. Sample size is an issue.... cannot compare less than a season of one coach to 5+ seasons of another. hmmm....

[Pookie]

I'll let Pookie carry the torch for the "wait and see group" from here on in. He expresses himself very well, much better than I do, and has a very articulate, well-considered opinion.

Thank you.

Though, I'm not sure that I want to carry that particular torch.

Rocker's post is also deserving of a bang on label. The thing about records is that almost every coach that is or would be available was fired at one point, usually as a result of their record. A losing record doesn't make one a bad coach all on its own. Just as a winning record doesn't make one a genius.

Cause and effect is really hard to link when there are so many variables at play. Of course, one could just ignore all the variables and focus on one (such as record) but then that would be silly.

[Chevy]

You can't, but you can always alter reality to fit your preconceived notions.

The hate on Winter is really about DeRo, always has been.

^^ This.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

I'll let Pookie carry the torch for the "wait and see group" from here on in. He expresses himself very well, much better than I do, and has a very articulate, well-considered opinion.

Okay, I'll bite…"wait and see"…how long does one wait? Based on what criteria?

Pookie asks "…point to results as "proof" of Winter's poor coaching"…how's, he was released as Ajax Academy coach and was unemployed for 18 months?

If Winter had a history of winning or turning Clubs around, I get it. But when is enough…enough? The end of the year? Two seasons?

I'm not prepared to throw Arron under the bus yet but I've seen little to impress me. IMO, the first year TFC team of Robinson, Dichio, Edu, Brennan and Sutton would beat the team that played Saturday night…quite easily. That team was poor…

[ensco]

I wouldn't lump the anti-Winter group with the pro-Dero group. I wanted Dero out the day after the cheque signing.

[Heathen]

Let's try this a different way... provide evidence (facts, not opinion) that other coaches in MLS are good coaches. But don't use win-loss record. Cuz I know you said, for example, that Preki's good win-loss record for Chivas was not reflective of his ability as a coach, since Bob Bradley handed him a stacked team apparently. And guys like Kreis, Schmidt, Nicol, and even Arena have had poor seasons in their histories.

I just can't get a grip on what makes a good coach in this league.. something factual, something that isn't opinion.

Win-loss is probably all we have for "objective" measures, but as I said, guys like Schmidt and Kreis have won MLS Cups and had good teams and then also had some of the worst squads in MLS history according to win-loss. Sample size is an issue.... cannot compare less than a season of one coach to 5+ seasons of another. hmmm....

When it comes down to it, win-loss, play-off runs and trophies are the only real indicators of a good coach in the MLS. Preki had a very good regular season record but got beaten in the 1st round of the play-offs 3 years in a row. I wouldn't say Preki was a bad coach just played very dull football which is acceptable when you're winning but not when you're not.
As for Schmidt, he'd already won an MLS Cup, with experience like that in charge a rebuilding season is more palatable. Kreis did have vast MLS experience but I assume is that the RSL owner saw something in him that made him keep faith. Anyway I would caution using Schmidt and Kreis's poor seasons as a comparison to TFC because I've done the statistical research (I posted it in another thread) and we're on course to have worse PPG than either of those two squads.
I know you want something objective but to me this season performance is more important than results. We could have the same win-loss and if we'd put in more performances that gave some indication of progress and hope for the future I would be content. People make cracks about Vancouver being worse than us but honestly every game I've seen them in they've been competitive, I think they are an example of a team where the performances have been better than results, we aren't.

[Whoop]

I wouldn't lump the anti-Winter group with the pro-Dero group. I wanted Dero out after the cheque signing.

1) I wasn't a DeRo fan.
2) I was in the "wait and see" group for Winter at the start of the season.

3) Slowly realizing that Winter is in over his head.

As I mentioned before the only thing saving Winter right now, the only thing, is that lack of instability with the TFC franchise.

Everyone points to Kreis and his "poor record" after taking over the team in 2007.

Yet, they never lost by more than 2 goals, lost by 2 goals twice, and only gave up 4 goals once.

They were able to eke out some results. And the GD was only -8 in the 29 matches they played. And they didn't bring in 2 DPs halfway through the season.

So yeah, sure his record was 6-13-7. But if you delve further, 11 of those 13 losses were by 1 goal.

By contrast, when TFC loses, they lose big, of their 11 losses, only 3 have been by 1 goal. In fact 4 of the loses have been by 3+ goals.

TFC would be so lucky.

[Whoop]

When it comes down to it, win-loss, play-off runs and trophies are the only real indicators of a good coach in the MLS. Preki had a very good regular season record but got beaten in the 1st round of the play-offs 3 years in a row. I wouldn't say Preki was a bad coach just played very dull football which is acceptable when you're winning but not when you're not.
As for Schmidt, he'd already won an MLS Cup, with experience like that in charge a rebuilding season is more palatable. Kreis did have vast MLS experience but I assume is that the RSL owner saw something in him that made him keep faith. Anyway I would caution using Schmidt and Kreis's poor seasons as a comparison to TFC because I've done the statistical research (I posted it in another thread) and we're on course to have worse PPG than either of those two squads.
I know you want something objective but to me this season performance is more important than results. We could have the same win-loss and if we'd put in more performances that gave some indication of progress and hope for the future I would be content. People make cracks about Vancouver being worse than us but honestly every game I've seen them in they've been competitive, I think they are an example of a team where the performances have been better than results, we aren't.

Contrast Toronto vs. Vancouver

Toronto - 11 loses
3 by 1 goal
4 by 2 goals
4 by 3+ goals

Vancouver - 10 loses
8 by 1 goal
2 by 2 goals
0 by 3+ goals

[Shakes McQueen]

I wouldn't lump the anti-Winter group with the pro-Dero group. I wanted Dero out the day after the cheque signing.

That's fair. I also wouldn't lump in people who for one valid reason or another haven't given up on the management regime of Aron Winter as being "pro-management" or "anti-player", as has often been the case.

These mischaracterizations serve to do nothing but shut down the discussion. As OT presciently mentioned earlier - winning someone's silence doesn't mean you've "won" the discussion. It only means you've managed to brow beat them into submission - usually through a combination of condescension, and argumentum verbosium (since we apparently love our Latin around here).

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

TFC would be so lucky.

Yeah, I'm sure most folks here would be a lot happier if we were losing by slimmer margins, like we were last year under Preki.

This was such a happy place back then.

- Scott

[Whoop]

It wasn't. Though not as bad as this year.

I'm just laying out the numbers for those who claim that Jason Kreis had a shitty 2007 year. Short of watching every RSL match from that 2007 season, while ultimately the W-L record doesn't bear it out, when you delve behind the numbers, this 2011 team is worse, record wise, than that 2007 team.

All I'm saying is for a "rebuilding" team TFC is doing a shitty job.

As I mentioned the other day... when you rebuild, you have some young core building blocks to build on.

What building blocks does TFC have to build on?

[Beach_Red]

Yeah, I'm sure most folks here would be a lot happier if we were losing by slimmer margins, like we were last year under Preki.

This was such a happy place back then.

- Scott

It's funny how similar it was - he doesn't have the roster he wants, injuries, no depth, etc..

But the two DP signings this year are a clear improvement (maybe Preki would have benefitted from a consultant or headhunter to go and get him DPs) and going forward this team will be better.

Unless there are more injuries or one of them gives up like Robert or.....

[Whoop]

What are the odds Koevermans and Frings go "on loan" in the off season?

[Beach_Red]

What are the odds Koevermans and Frings go "on loan" in the off season?

What are the odds Koevermans ever gets "match fit" now that he's had a look around?

[Shakes McQueen]

What are the odds Koevermans and Frings go "on loan" in the off season?

I'd put it at about 1%.

- Scott

[Whoop]

Ok, flip it around...

What are the odds Frings and Koevermans finish their 2 1/2 year contract with TFC?

[ManUtd4ever]

Ok, flip it around...

What are the odds Frings and Koevermans finish their 2 1/2 year contract with TFC?

What precipitated this comment?

I understand the sense of cynicism based on the results this season, but these are world class professionals that have guaranteed contracts in place, and they have uprooted their families to take on a new challenge in the twilight of their careers, where they will be able to have a siginificant impact in a league that is slowly on the rise.

Are you actually suggesting that they will forfeit their lucrative salaries at some point because it will become too unbearable for them to fulfill their contractual obligations in Toronto?

So, TFC has no future building blocks, and after 2 games, you question whether or not the first astute DP signings in the club's history will last the duration of their contracts.

Well, I guess we might as well fold up the tent. What's the point?

[ag futbol]

Everyone points to Kreis and his "poor record" after taking over the team in 2007.

Yeah I really don't see the comparisons there either. We're comparing a former MLS player to someone who previously had no knowledge of the league. Someone who was definitely on the inside of the locker room, to someone who had to bring a few players he was familiar with and then familiarize himself with everyone else. A guy who started mid-season to someone who had the benefit of a pre-season.


Maybe Winter will be his own example of success in the future, but in terms of being Kreis part II, I think not.

[ensco]

The Kreis comparison is really not that helpful.

Most managers don't work out. It's probably more instructive, from a data collecting POV, to look at the common elements among the many failures, and avoid those, than to try to understand the unique attributes of the few that succeed.

[Roogsy]

The Kreis example is brought for no other reason than to provide evidence that a rebuild in MLS need not include horrific performances like the kind TFC have served up nor an unreasonable amount of time. I think the confusion arises when people either intentionally or not, decide to compare every facet of a team's development. That's always an impossible task with all teams in all sports. They're always unique situations.

[Max_TO]

I tend to agree with the OP . When you see the players live you can see the confusion in there coverage , or if watching on TV you can see it in rushed passes or not covering there man properly .

Instead of teaching a new system they really need to cover the basics like covering properly and passing to where the player will be and not where they currently are .

Sorry folks but the coach has to go and we do need a good defender .

And yes , TFC did seem to play pretty good in there game agienst KC , but they still gave up 4 goals .

[Whoop]

What precipitated this comment?

I understand the sense of cynicism based on the results this season, but these are world class professionals that have guaranteed contracts in place, and they have uprooted their families to take on a new challenge in the twilight of their careers, where they will be able to have a siginificant impact in a league that is slowly on the rise.

Are you actually suggesting that they will forfeit their lucrative salaries at some point because it will become too unbearable for them to fulfill their contractual obligations in Toronto?

So, TFC has no future building blocks, and after 2 games, you question whether or not the first astute DP signings in the club's history will last the duration of their contracts.

Well, I guess we might as well fold up the tent. What's the point?

Not many DPs end up fulfilling the length of their contract. And that's not including situations where there are horrific results.

But I'm still waiting to hear about these young building blocks that will leave TFC to the playoffs in 2012.

[Shakes McQueen]

Not many DPs end up fulfilling the length of their contract. And that's not including situations where there are horrific results.

But I'm still waiting to hear about these young building blocks that will leave TFC to the playoffs in 2012.

It's a bit cynical to assume that results will be "horrific" for the next 2.5 years, and I think it has been demonstrated in MLS that you don't have to be led to the playoffs by young building blocks.

The nice thing about being a second rate league in a global sport, is that you literally have thousands of footballers all over the world to choose from. With that said, there are bonafide future MLS starters coming up through the ranks, like Henry. It also still remains to be seen how long talented youngsters like Plata and Eckersley will be with us.

- Scott

[Whoop]

But that's the confusion.

Either there are building blocks, or a young core, for the future or you get to choose from the thousands of footballers to put together a playoff team.

That's why people are upset.

I'm just upset because while I expected the team to not make the playoffs, I didn't expect the team to be embarrassing.

[Shakes McQueen]

But that's the confusion.

Either there are building blocks, or a young core, for the future or you get to choose from the thousands of footballers to put together a playoff team.

Like most MLS teams, they are building with a combination of one-time MLS draftees, DP veterans from proper leagues, budget signings from Europe, loans, and a hodge podge of other sources.

Whether their particular player choices will get the job done remains to be seen, but I certainly don't see them breaking from the norm around the league in how they are doing it.


I'm just upset because while I expected the team to not make the playoffs, I didn't expect the team to be embarrassing.

I'm upset about this too, and still trying to work out for myself what I think the main cause is. When we get blown out, it's usually not the result of being steadily outplayed for a full 90 minutes. We concede multiple goals in short spans of time. Is it a confidence issue? Is it a failure of coaching? Can it be solved by bringing in a solid defender or two? Will it get better as these new guys all play together, and we get the chance to start putting more of our best XI on the field?

I don't think anyone gets the warm fuzzies watching our team get plowed by the rest of the league, and having other supporters call us Toronto Fail Club, or Terrible Football Club. I simply try to compartmentalize that embarrassment and frustration when I look analytically at our problems.

- Scott

[gomesv]

The answer's, although not clear cut, in my opinion rest with Winter. You can rebuild a team and still have that team play with heart and character.

His formation/tactics, his player choices are baffling and Im sure disheartening, not only for the fans of this team but for some of the players

I believe he has full autonomy of this team......so I blame him:facepalm:

[sashavukelich]

Scott, i tend to agree that i imagined less bullying of TFC by other teams. I think we've brought in some players with combative and winning mentalities. Johnson, Koevermans, Frings especially.

I'm still a tad worried about Iro, he looks a shadow of what i remember of him from Seasons past with Columbus.

with Cann and Williams back, that will certainly create more competition at the CB positions than is currently present. and boy oh boy, i hope we can sign eckersly.

[Pookie]

This is kind of an open statement directed towards comments about quick turnarounds.

In an league in which is owned by a single entity, is it not within the league's interest to ensure certain markets are successful in order to maximize profits for this single entity owner?

Consider a few, very cursory examples:


Kansas City finished 13th overall in 2009. In 2010, they broke ground on a new stadium and signed a local TV contract. The squad improved to 3rd in the east that year and are reasonably competitive this year.

RSL - announce plans to build Rio Tinto Stadium in 2006. In 2007, a number of key players are acquired via MLS trades including Beckerman. In 2008, the stadium opens and RSL qualifies for the playoffs for the first time and hasn't missed since.

NY Red Bulls - Red Bull Arena opens in 2010. In the offseason, new coach, an influx of new players and a 3rd overall record

I'm not at all suggesting match fixing. However, it wouldn't be beyond impossible to think that certain connections could be used to help teams, that the league wants/needs to see be successful, to acquire players.

It reminds me a little of the Memorial Cup in Junior hockey. It is a 4 team tournament consisting of the Champ from Quebec, Ontario, Western Hockey and the host city. The host city gets in based on the fact that they are the host city, not on record.

Sort of a risk at Junior hockey's biggest showcase. They try to mitigate that by selecting the host city based on perceived competitiveness at the time of the tournament but injuries and the nature of competition sometimes put them in a risk.

So, it is not uncommon, that should the host city be less than competitive that a mid-season trade(s) be engineered. Invariably, the host city is improved over the short term and the tournament goes forward.


If this holds any water, our challenge in Toronto is that the league doesn't need Toronto to be more competitive on the field for any reason at this point. We are selling tickets and making profit. The TV contract is there, it could be a little better but it is there. There are no real close geographical rivals, outside of Montreal and they already have their expansion money. Unless Buffalo and Detroit get in on it, we are a bit of an island.

[Beach_Red]

^ The problem is, TFC is doing what the league tells it to (they hired Mo and then they hired Soccer Solutions on league advice) and RSL went against what the league wanted (advised them not to hire Kreiss).

So, they may want the results as you say, they just aren't very good at getting them :).

[ManUtd4ever]

Not many DPs end up fulfilling the length of their contract. And that's not including situations where there are horrific results.

But I'm still waiting to hear about these young building blocks that will leave TFC to the playoffs in 2012.

Really? Perhaps I missed it, but it seems like the majority of designated players that have signed in MLS have fulfilled the duration of their contracts. I recall the situation with the DP in Houston earlier this season, but that was an isolated incident.

As for young building blocks in the organization, I responded to this question with several examples the last time you mentioned it, and it turned into a debate about blue chip prospects versus prospects. I believe there are at least a few young players on the roster that have a bright future in this league.

If you're asking about players that are young enough to help lead TFC to the playoffs in the 2012, doesn't that include the majority of names on the current roster? Aside from a few players that will be traded/released either now or in the off season, the current roster should remain intact going into next season, and I believe it will be a playoff team. The overall talent level is good enough. If TFC doesn't qualify for the playoffs next season, it will be an indictment of Aron Winter's coaching ability, not the talent level on the roster.

[Whoop]

It reminds me a little of the Memorial Cup in Junior hockey. It is a 4 team tournament consisting of the Champ from Quebec, Ontario, Western Hockey and the host city. The host city gets in based on the fact that they are the host city, not on record.

Sort of a risk at Junior hockey's biggest showcase. They try to mitigate that by selecting the host city based on perceived competitiveness at the time of the tournament but injuries and the nature of competition sometimes put them in a risk.

So, it is not uncommon, that should the host city be less than competitive that a mid-season trade(s) be engineered. Invariably, the host city is improved over the short term and the tournament goes forward.



1) The criteria for a picking a host team has changed at least in Ontario. Strength of the team coming back is 1, 1a in selecting a host team.

2) Again, you're picking a small sample to fit your argument. How do you explain Philadelphia? Seattle? They're sold out, they have good coverage, why the need to "match fix"?



If you're asking about players that are young enough to help lead TFC to the playoffs in the 2012, doesn't that include the majority of names on the current roster? Aside from a few players that will be traded/released either now or in the off season, the current roster should remain intact going into next season, and I believe it will be a playoff team. The overall talent level is good enough. If TFC doesn't qualify for the playoffs next season, it will be an indictment of Aron Winter's coaching ability, not the talent level on the roster.

Isn't that what people are saying now. Aside from the qualifying for the playoffs, that even with the talent that Winter has, the team should be getting better results.

And if the current roster should remain intact - aside from a few changes - shouldn't the results be better? Yes, I know the argument is that the team needs a few games to gel. By the time those few games are up, the season will be done.

[whyalwaysme11]

DangerRed/Gordon
but when a player asks a question about how the system works beyond just "attacking, possession-oriented football," there are no answers. Players are just running around in confusion.
I say... what more does a player need to know?
Side Note...
Did we trade Labrocca (all-star) for Gordon I cant remember???
Roogsy
If we can't even get this assurance from the team, then what's the point of doing anything else? A clear and unquestionable performance measure is an expected and logical demand of any high performance position. And yet we dance and skirt around this issue like we are going to hurt someone's feelings?
This is a great statement here... TFC is a business and we the shareholders... (season seat holders) need to hear something.
But they already told us we are in the re-building stage... I get it... all we are asking is to be more competitive but for now
I think the re-building thing is good enough.
also criticism done right is ok.
"Give Winter a year or so" "Ride out the season with Winter"
This is not EPL players here are shite... the build/performance turn-a-round for a quality team takes time....
I would give Winter 3 years min.
Obviously by all the moves; they are trying to make something happen.
Although all this talk is nice cause it shows peoples interest... most of the comments sound like we are preparing for a boycott..
Like I said before I have already committed to this team for life so if its 0 - 175 for the next 5 season then so be it.
Unless I move from Toronto... I am not going to be sitting at home while a home game is being played and I will always be in front of a tv for away games. Its just the way I feel and think. Its a part of my life no matter which way its served to me...
As much as I dont agree with MLSE... they got me... No wait Soccer got me.
I heard this man on my floor talking about copa america the other day so i decided to go talk to him this morning turns our he is from Nicaragua and is going to the game wednesday... anyways long story short we had a 20 min convo about tfc...
We shared our stories and thoughts we were like too little kids who were happy to share the same passion for something...
Soccer Passion Respect thats what RPBs is about.

and my only concern right now is frei...
he is the franchise.

[Pookie]

1) The criteria for a picking a host team has changed at least in Ontario. Strength of the team coming back is 1, 1a in selecting a host team.

Agreed. I tried to account for that in suggesting that strength of the host city was a criteria but sometimes injuries or playing below expectations can enter into it. If that happens, trades usually follow


2) Again, you're picking a small sample to fit your argument. How do you explain Philadelphia? Seattle? They're sold out, they have good coverage, why the need to "match fix"?

Of course. It is small because there haven't been that many soccer specific stadiums built.

Again, I'm just raising the "curious eyebrow" here. This isn't a Declan Hill type expose.

If I could offer a possible reason why Philadelphia and Seattle were on the league's radar in seeing successful, I would suggest that a strong east coast loop between DC, Philadelphia and NY would be excellent for ratings and gate interest.

Seattle? Same story just on the other coast. With expansion fees in hand from Vancouver and Portland and you have 3 very close cities which could provide a boost for geographic rivals. I would be surprised if Vancouver and Portland don't make a reasonable improvement in the year after the expansion hype dies down... much like Philly did.

Anyways, the simple fact is that the league profits when its teams do well. Seeing the bigger markets do well is likely to generate more revenue. If you follow the money there is motivation for things to be less than they appear. I'm not saying they are. I'm not saying they aren't. I'm just saying it looks a little curious at times.

Much like the NYRB's transfer of Henry and Marquez which curiously had a $0 transfer price tag for NY but a $5M price tag for anyone else and whispers of Barcelona's interest in MLS franchise rights down the road. You do me a favour...