Gordon dishes on TFC, Winter

[menefreghista]

I'm sorry, ensco, but the bar has moved yet again. We're down to one match! :lol:

Technically two. But who's counting?

[Oldtimer]

These two Esteli games are a minefield. I actually feel sorry for Winter on this. We're in training camp here. This setup, where the second leg is an Central America, is not great. I am certain the ref in the Arabe Unido game was crooked. We could easily go out, at which point I will look reasonable compared to what the majority will want to do to Winter.

It may will have been far better for Winter to go out in the thunderstorm in May, and just blame the rain and the former players.

It's really difficult to win in CONCACAF. Hostile crowds, crooked or intimidated refs, the list goes on. No-one in UEFA has to deal with what we have to here.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

The funniest thing I've read in this thread is …"He (Gordon) said they do a lot of passing drills in practice"!!!

This team couldn't pass wind after eating at Burrito Brothers for a week!

As for Winter and being over his head, I don't know. But one thing I do know is there was little evidence he had the credentials to be a head coach at (even) this level, he was a Number 2 and then coached the Ajax Academy team. Hardly a resume that rocks the football world or evokes confidence or, as someone suggested earlier…faith.

[menefreghista]

If 90 minutes of of football is all you require to evaluate the rebuilt roster, I envy your sense of intuitiveness.

The things is its not just 90 minutes of evaluation. Its bases on watching around 25 matches.

I just want to know what are the signs of hope from all the believers. What do you see that gives you hope? Please explain.

[menefreghista]

As for Winter and being over his head, I don't know. But one thing I do know is there was little evidence he had the credentials to be a head coach at (even) this level, he was a Number 2 and then coached the Ajax Academy team. Hardly a resume that rocks the football world or evokes confidence or, as someone suggested earlier…faith.

I'm not trying to rip you, because I agree with your general point. But this is how misinformation keeps spreading on forums.

Winter was never the number 2 for the senior Ajax squad. He was the assistant to the top youth team (Ajax A1) and later the head coach of the second youth team (Ajax A2).

And just so it doesn't get lost again. He was unemployed for about 18 months before TFC hired him.

[PopePouri]

Would not the Ajax reserves and A2 resemble the quality found in MLS?


He was unemployed for about 18 months before TFC hired him.

I don't know why this is an issue. There could be a multitude of reasons besides incompetency why he didn't get employed instantly after that.

The fact is he was there for 4 years which is a significant amount of time. If he was piss-poor he would have been sacked much earlier.

[Oldtimer]

Technically two. But who's counting?

You're right, a whole 180 minutes!!! :D

But actually, Winter will be judged after the first match, people won't wait until the second. That's why I said one match.

[ManUtd4ever]

The things is its not just 90 minutes of evaluation. Its bases on watching around 25 matches.

I just want to know what are the signs of hope from all the believers. What do you see that gives you hope? Please explain.

I'm not convinced one way or another, I'm reserving judgement. The roster has been completely overhauled. Winter has acknowledged on several occasions that the reason this club has failed is because he lacked the quality to implement his tactical approach. Winter will now live or die by those words, but he deserves the rest of the season to be judged accordingly, does he not?

[menefreghista]

Would not the Ajax reserves and A2 resemble the quality found in MLS?

No. Its a totally different job.

One is developing talent, trying to get them into the first team. The other is trying to win games in a professional league.

[ensco]

See how the rest of the year plays out, how Winter does with the handcuffs removed.

I promise to keep an open mind. But here's the thing. The more I think about Nana, the angrier I get, and it's really affecting my personal relationship with the team.

Here's I guy who came here as a kid, earned a spot, played pretty well, was really part of the fabric. He is a good kid, respectful, well spoken, we all know that. Maybe not a superstar, we all know that was overblown, but that's what happens when the hometown kid makes good, you get excited.

When the team leaked that Nana had an attitude/"entitlement" problem, that sort of bothered me, because it didn't make sense. Nana made $17,000 a year or whatever for at least the first couple of years! If he thought he had a shot to move up, why slag him? Isn't that what Winter or Mariner would do (and did)?

Then when Nana got publicly criticized/insulted by Winter after the trade, that really bothered me. Who is Aron Winter to do this? Nana is on the alltime games played list for TFC, gave his heart and soul to us, and deserved thanks from TFC.

How many people stood up for the kid here? When did the supporters forum become the Amen Chorus for an unproven newcomer who is showing a remarkable ability to alienate people, and may or may not be here in a year? Because some idea about "patience" matters more than decency?

Just to remind you, Aron Winter is passing through. We are TFC.

The Gordon stuff is just confirmatory, but this is what really bothers me, and a few wins won't cure it.

[Beach_Red]

At this point in time, it's illogical to come to any conclusions one way or another.

I haven't read a single post declaring Winter as the savior of this franchise, yet you and a few others are already certain that his long term vision and short term plan are destined to fail. If 90 minutes of of football is all you require to evaluate the rebuilt roster, I envy your sense of intuitiveness.

I genuinely respect your opinion, but I don't understand the incessant need to convince everyone else that patience is not required, or the notion that it is irrational to have faith in a plan that hasn't even been given a fair chance to come to fruition.

Inevitably, you may be right, but can we observe the new roster for a few games first?

No, I don't think he was talking about the plan, long-term or short-term, he's talkng about Winter's ability to implement it.

One thing that hasn't come up in this discussion is any comment on Gordon saying he was injured but being put in gthe games anyway and Koeverman clearly not being ready to play and staying in for the whole game.

Beyond strategy and tactics there are some issues of player management here that are sometimes baffling.

[Oldtimer]

I promise to keep an open mind. But here's the thing. The more I think about Nana, the angrier I get, and it's really affecting my personal relationship with the team.



Nana was good friends with DeRo. Trading DeRo broke the relationship between him and the club. That's the real story.

I'm not sure the team "leaked" anything. People have opinions, and when they aren't well informed, they'll make things up. I never saw any attitude problem towards training, etc. Mind you, I'm not in the locker-room.

As far as a culture of entitlement (Winter's criticism), all the Canadian players seem to exhibit that.

[Whoop]

As I said, I'm more comfortable with hockey analogies and I apologize for that, but I just wanted to say, sure pros work on the basics AND a game plan.

But what this situation really reminds me of in the New Jersey Devils when Gretzky called them a Mickey Mouse organization. He was right and they set about changing their team. But they didn't try to play the Oilers fast-paced, high-skilled game because they knew they couldn't get the players for that. They got grinders, played the trap, built the defence and won a few Stanley Cups.

Only thing is that Gretzky made that comment in '83 and they didn't win the Cup until '95.

I would say getting a goaltender like Martin Brodeur certainly accelerated the process.

However, the dynamics of the game changed after the lock out.

Jacques Lemaire devised a system to cater to the strengths of his players. That system ended up being the trap. No coach really wants to implement the trap. Coaches would love free flowing play, but coaches also know they need results. At the time, the trap was the easiest way to get results based on the talent you had at your disposal. Once you had a whole pile of teams playing the trap, then the other coaches adapted in other to break the trap. The rule changes also helped.

So it goes back to the argument, is Winter capable of adapting? Is Winter capable of assessing talent?

So per chance, down the road, Winter has the players to play his system and he's getting results. But what happens when 2-3 guys are injured, does he stick with the 4-3-3 even though he doesn't have the guys on the bench to play it or does he adapt the formation to the strengths of his players?

It will be interesting to see what happens down this stretch.

[ensco]

Nana was good friends with DeRo. Trading DeRo broke the relationship between him and the club. That's the real story.

I'm not sure the team "leaked" anything. People have opinions, and when they aren't well informed, they'll make things up. I never saw any attitude problem towards training, etc. Mind you, I'm not in the locker-room.

Using the passive voice obscures the issue. Winter's job is to get the best from his players. That includes help player's get through it when their friends are traded.

My main point is that Winter continually, repeatedly acts disrespectfully to players in public.

[ManUtd4ever]

I promise to keep an open mind. But here's the thing. The more I think about Nana, the angrier I get, and it's really affecting my personal relationship with the team.

Here's I guy who came here as a kid, earned a spot, played pretty well, was really part of the fabric. He is a good kid, respectful, well spoken, we all know that. Maybe not a superstar, we all know that was overblown, but that's what happens when the hometown kid makes good, you get excited.

When the team leaked that Nana had an attitude/"entitlement" problem, that sort of bothered me, because it didn't make sense. Nana made $17,000 a year or whatever for at least the first couple of years! If he thought he had a shot to move up, why slag him? Isn't that what Winter or Mariner would do (and did)?

Then when Nana got publicly criticized/insulted by Winter after the trade, that really bothered me. Who is Aron Winter to do this? Nana is probably the alltime games played leader for TFC, gave his heart and soul to us, and deserved thanks from TFC.

How many people stood up for the kid here? When did the supporters chorus become the Amen Chorus for an unproven newcomer who is showing a remarkable ability to alienate people, and may or may not be here in a year?

Because some idea about "patience" matters more than decency?

The Gordon stuff is just confirmatory, but this is what really bothers me, and a few wins won't cure it.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall Winter making derogatory comments about Nana after the trade. I recall him stating that Nana had asked for a trade following Cann's injury, but nothing inflammatory. In fact, I don't recall Winter saying anything derogatory about any of the players that have departed.

[Oldtimer]

One thing that hasn't come up in this discussion is any comment on Gordon saying he was injured but being put in gthe games anyway and Koeverman clearly not being ready to play and staying in for the whole game.

Beyond strategy and tactics there are some issues of player management here that are sometimes baffling.

It's not that baffling, it's called desperation. A 4-3-3 doesn't work without a target man, unless you're Barcelona. Even Argentina MNT can't do it.

[Oldtimer]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall Winter making derogatory comments about Nana after the trade. I recall him stating that Nana had asked for a trade following Cann's injury, but nothing inflammatory. In fact, I don't recall Winter saying anything derogatory about any of the players that have departed.

The only thing I recall is Winter making an oblique reference to a "culture of entitlement." He never said anything about Nana personally.

[ManUtd4ever]

No, I don't think he was talking about the plan, long-term or short-term, he's talkng about Winter's ability to implement it.

One thing that hasn't come up in this discussion is any comment on Gordon saying he was injured but being put in gthe games anyway and Koeverman clearly not being ready to play and staying in for the whole game.

Beyond strategy and tactics there are some issues of player management here that are sometimes baffling.

Well, that's what I meant. We need time to judge if he is capable of implementing his plan with the group of players that he has assembled.

[Beach_Red]

Nana was good friends with DeRo. Trading DeRo broke the relationship between him and the club. That's the real story.

I'm not sure the team "leaked" anything. People have opinions, and when they aren't well informed, they'll make things up. I never saw any attitude problem towards training, etc. Mind you, I'm not in the locker-room.

As far as a culture of entitlement (Winter's criticism), all the Canadian players seem to exhibit that.

Ensco makes a good point, though, in terms of coaching - or organization building - who is Aron Winter to make these comments? He's really got zero reputation.

The fact there's a domestic quota is foing to cloud the issue of negotiating with players, no doubt, but if this organization is going to put so much of its future
into the academy how it manages players with other options is going to be huge. Are they off to a good start?

[Beach_Red]

It's not that baffling, it's called desperation. A 4-3-3 doesn't work without a target man, unless you're Barcelona. Even Argentina MNT can't do it.

But we lost and there were no consequences. Why be desperate to try and win this particular game against a far better team that no one expected to win? Everyone would agree, that's just too short-term thinking ;)

[mightydrm]

I have read several well articulated posts regarding the modus operandi of the current regime that are rational as well as objective.

It seems like the majority support the long term implications of the organizational infrastructure that Winter and Co. are trying to implement, and acknowledge that the recent roster acquistions were an attempt to achieve a modicum of success in the short term.

As for the grandiose statements declaring Winter and his current regime an abject failure, it's encouraging to note that the majority are taking those opinions with a grain of salt.

I concur with the majority, and I will observe the club's performance over the next several weeks before making any bold proclamations.

completely agree with this.

[ensco]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall Winter making derogatory comments about Nana after the trade. I recall him stating that Nana had asked for a trade following Cann's injury, but nothing inflammatory. In fact, I don't recall Winter saying anything derogatory about any of the players that have departed.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/20/winter-vows-tfc-will-win

That had not been the case and led to the departures of former captain Dwayne De Rosario and, more recently, his close friend and Day One Red, Nana Attakora, who Winter said had asked to be dealt.

“The character was not the kind I wanted,” Winter said.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

Winter was never the number 2 for the senior Ajax squad. He was the assistant to the top youth team (Ajax A1) and later the head coach of the second youth team (Ajax A2).

And just so it doesn't get lost again. He was unemployed for about 18 months before TFC hired him.

Thanks for clarifying and reinforcing my point on Winters resume, menefreghista


No. Its a totally different job.

One is developing talent, trying to get them into the first team. The other is trying to win games in a professional league.

Exactly. European academies are also sources of revenue, many are puppy mills. If you have ManU, Barca or AC Malin on your CV your value increases. Transfer fees and knock ons are big business.

[UltraFootyKWC]

I, just like most people here want results, but we knew this was going to take some time. It's only been 4 or 5 months. Give the guy some time to do his job. Don't get me wrong, I'm just as frustrated with the way our team looks on the pitch most nights, but Winter is still putting the pieces together. The last thing we need is yet another coaching change. We just need to find the players with the right skill sets that can actually play.

Also, see below V V V, if you haven't signed up for the summer tournament get on a team and get registered and start raising some money for a great cause. Let's turn our frustrations with this team in to something positive for the community.

Feel free to PM me, or see the thread link below for a list of team captains.

[menefreghista]

The last thing we need is yet another coaching change.

The results have been so bad that we have to be prepared for the fact that he may just leave on his own.

[ManUtd4ever]

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/20/winter-vows-tfc-will-win

That had not been the case and led to the departures of former captain Dwayne De Rosario and, more recently, his close friend and Day One Red, Nana Attakora, who Winter said had asked to be dealt.

“The character was not the kind I wanted,” Winter said.


In fairness, that statement is open to interpretation. Obviously, Winter thought highly enough of Nana to offer him a contract extension earlier in the season. Perhaps Nana's refusal to commit to the organization is what led Winter to make those comments.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

^ Beach Red (or Beechy as he liked to be called... copyright Simpsons)

I'm not sold on the concept that they have changed gears but I'm not sure that they haven't either.

I have to go with the idea that Winter is sticking to a plan. The plan that was likely developed/advised by JK and the plan that he was hired to implement.

- the academy kids are learning it (system and technical)
- the first team is working on it
- players that couldn't grasp it have been moved out in favour of players they say can grasp it

The only real change in variables vs the start of the season seems to be the age of the players brought in. Our DPs are over 30. The others are all over 26.

It could be that the DPs are being used partly to assist with the technical and system learnings (which apparently wasn't going so well, according to Gordon) and partly to improve the competitiveness of the team now.

But they haven't parted with really young players like Plata, Henry, Cordon, etc which doesn't fit with the idea of "win now damn the future."

To be practical though. They have 2 1/2 years on a contract. Clearly, they need results before that contract expires. It would be unfair of us not to assume that isn't a factor.

very well said.

[UltraFootyKWC]

The results have been so bad that we have to be prepared for the fact that he may just leave on his own.

Fair enough. That's the only way I could see it going down though.

[menefreghista]

Thanks for clarifying and reinforcing my point on Winters resume, menefreghista

There is quite a bit of myth making about Winter. I bet some people believe he quit his job at Ajax to come here. They probably have no idea he went 18 months unemployed.

I also think that some fans have so much faith invested in Winter to turn this team around that they can't fathom he might have been a mistake.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/20/winter-vows-tfc-will-win

That had not been the case and led to the departures of former captain Dwayne De Rosario and, more recently, his close friend and Day One Red, Nana Attakora, who Winter said had asked to be dealt.

“The character was not the kind I wanted,” Winter said.



He doesnt want someone to stay who wants to be traded?
Thats derogatory?

[menefreghista]

Fair enough. That's the only way I could see it going down though.

I think the only thing keeping him here up to now is that he has no other prospects for work.

But its not uncommon in this sport for coaches to 'mutually agree' to leave a club with results as bad as TFC's.

[ensco]

In fairness, that statement is open to interpretation. Obviously, Winter thought highly enough of Nana to offer him a contract extension earlier in the season. Perhaps Nana's refusal to commit to the organization is what led Winter to make those comments.

In fairness, no it isn't. That's about as far from "We were trying to work something out but couldn't, we thank him for all his contributions to TFC and wish him well" as you can get.

[TOBOR !]

...
I concur with the majority, and I will observe the club's performance over the next several weeks before making any bold proclamations.

Several weeks ?

I don't think Winter can be rated on the performance of the senior team until such a time when we see the fruition of the academy program.

Hopefully his employers see the bigger picture and realise that for the time being any change made to the senior squad is but a band-aid solution until the cure is ready (in the form of a fully-formed and thriving academy).

The problem is that the senior level side is the one that people are paying to see, the one that is dysfuntional, and the one that Winter is being judged on by the masses (including his own squad - but they can't see the forest for the trees).

[GeorgeBest]

In fairness, that statement is open to interpretation. Obviously, Winter thought highly enough of Nana to offer him a contract extension earlier in the season. Perhaps Nana's refusal to commit to the organization is what led Winter to make those comments.

The two sides could not reach commercial terms on a contract, not sure that justifies it.

[Wooster_TFC]

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/20/winter-vows-tfc-will-win

That had not been the case and led to the departures of former captain Dwayne De Rosario and, more recently, his close friend and Day One Red, Nana Attakora, who Winter said had asked to be dealt.

“The character was not the kind I wanted,” Winter said.


Where in that article does it state that Winter actually said that in relation to DeRo and Nana though? For all we know due to the paraphrasing and past mis-quotes in the media, that was in reference to ALL the trades he's made over the last little while.

He says "the character" which, in my opinion, implies the group, not a specific individual.

[ensco]

Where in that article does it state that Winter actually said that in relation to DeRo and Nana though? For all we know due to the paraphrasing and past mis-quotes in the media, that was in reference to ALL the trades he's made over the last little while.

He says "the character" which, in my opinion, implies the group, not a specific individual.

You have seriously got to be kidding.

What has Winter done to deserve this kind of protection from people?

[Beach_Red]

Several weeks ?

I don't think Winter can be rated on the performance of the senior team until such a time when we see the fruition of the academy program.

Hopefully his employers see the bigger picture and realise that for the time being any change made to the senior squad is but a band-aid solution until the cure is ready (in the form of a fully-formed and thriving academy).

The problem is that the senior level side is the one that people are paying to see, the one that is dysfuntional, and the one that Winter is being judged on by the masses (including his own squad - but they can't see the forest for the trees).

How many academy players do you expect will be playing for TFC in five years? And how many years do you expect the best ones will stay in MLS?

And why put the same guy (one with so little experience, frankly) in charge of both building the academy and the senior team? That's the tree we see. If Winter had been brought in (even 18 months removed) from Ajax academy to organize and operate the TFC academy and someone else (Dichio? Carl Robinson?) put in charge of the senior team and was trying to win some games now, in the meantime as it were, people would likely have been thrilled.

[Oldtimer]

I think the only thing keeping him here up to now is that he has no other prospects for work.



Yeah, he's an unemployed bum who couldn't find a job at McD's, so he came here. :rolleyes: You have no basis whatever for saying that. I'm sure he could coach somewhere in the Netherlands, although not necessarily a first league first team.

It's not at all unusual in the coaching world for coaches to be out of work for a year or more at a time. It's no reflection at all on their ability. That's why you usually give them a contract for longer than their actual trial period. That extra money forms their severance. You also renew the contract when there is actually a year or more left on the old one.

You are making it out to be much more significant than it actually is.

[menefreghista]

You are making it out to be much more significant than it actually is.

The fact the guy was unemployed for 18 months before TFC hired him is pretty significant. Especially considering the cult worship status that some are giving him.

That is actually a long time to be unemployed as a coach in this sport.

[Oldtimer]

The fact the guy was unemployed for 18 months before TFC hired him is pretty significant. Especially considering the cult worship status that some are giving him.

That is actually a long time to be unemployed as a coach in this sport.

I have yet to see "cult worship" status here, just people willing to give him some rope. You want to use the rope to hang him already, that's just the difference.

As far as time unemployed, let's just take at random Portsmouth's coach, Stuart Gray. Not a big name like a Sir Alex, so that is the appropriate level to compare with MLS.

He was unemployed for nearly a year between being sacked at Southampton, and taking over at Aston Villa in a caretaker role in 2002. Then he filled in with other assistant coaching and temporary positions and didn't return to first team coaching until 2007.

[TOBOR !]

How many academy players do you expect will be playing for TFC in five years? And how many years do you expect the best ones will stay in MLS?

And why put the same guy (one with so little experience, frankly) in charge of both building the academy and the senior team? That's the tree we see. If Winter had been brought in (even 18 months removed) from Ajax academy to organize and operate the TFC academy and someone else (Dichio? Carl Robinson?) put in charge of the senior team and was trying to win some games now, in the meantime as it were, people would likely have been thrilled.

Well, the way I see it Winter and De Klerk were brought in the run the senior team and the develop academy, with the help of Mariner to work the ins and outs of MLS.

I hardly see the point of Winter developing an academy under one system but for the players to graduate to a senior side playing another. It's all happening at the same time under the same supervisor out of necessity.

Ultimately I'd agree - that the academy will be managed by someone other than the senior team's manager, but it would still all have to be under the watchful eye of a director.

[Wooster_TFC]

You have seriously got to be kidding.

What has Winter done to deserve this kind of protection from people?

And what has the Sun done to deserve the kind of utter acceptance from you? Unless those comments were directly in a quote about Nana, or were lead into with "When asked about Attakora", I tend to take them with a grain of salt, especially when they come from a smut newspaper like the Sun.

Sure, he could have been referring to Nana and Dero, but when a newspaper doesn't directly quote that, you can't believe that the speaker is referring to one person.

[menefreghista]

I have yet to see "cult worship" status here, just people willing to give him some rope. You want to use the rope to hang him already, that's just the difference.

I'm more worried that he's going to hang himself at this point.

I've learned to live with the fact that we are stuck with him for the foreseeable future. That doesn't mean I can't criticize his performance. I would love to see the signs of hope that others see.

At the same time I do think MLSE/TFC should be making a list of possible replacements in the background. You never know when a team is this bad. Just look at what happened to the Canadian women today.

[v00d00daddy]

1. Who's worshipping Winter?

2. What's wrong with saying you don't like a players character?

[Pookie]

I'm more worried that he's going to hang himself at this point.

...

At the same time I do think MLSE/TFC should be making a list of possible replacements in the background.

Why would you be worried about an outcome that you are advocating for?

[menefreghista]

Why would you be worried about an outcome that you are advocating for?

Because I don't think they have any replacements lined up.

And so once again we'd be waiting for months for some consultant to find a suitable replacement.

[nickio]

The truth is our wishes, whether to let Winter go or let him stay, are based mostly on emotions and the little mainstream media that comes through. Some of which is not even true, or half-true.

Noone really knows what actually goes on in the team. If he can't get results with a good, synchronized, healthy team- such as expected next year, then we'll know he is not cutting it as the coach. Right now though, the squad is just barely good on paper, they couldn't be anymore unsynchronized, and we're still quiet far from being healthy. You add it all up and 0-1 loss against one of the strongest teams in MLS is not a reason or indication to even THINK of letting Winter go...

[Ageroo]

Because I don't think they have any replacements lined up.

And so once again we'd be waiting for months for some consultant to find a suitable replacement.

As they shouldn't really have any lined up to begin with.......if they are trying to change the culture from the ground up through the youth system....then sacking the people put in place to bring it about will set back the program completely in my opinion. Regardless of results....I don't think Winter and Co. are going anywhere for a while.....unless he up and quits himself.

[Beach_Red]

Well, the way I see it Winter and De Klerk were brought in the run the senior team and the develop academy, with the help of Mariner to work the ins and outs of MLS.

I hardly see the point of Winter developing an academy under one system but for the players to graduate to a senior side playing another. It's all happening at the same time under the same supervisor out of necessity.

Ultimately I'd agree - that the academy will be managed by someone other than the senior team's manager, but it would still all have to be under the watchful eye of a director.

Sure, that makes sense. The thing is, with the domestic quota it's likely that for quite a while MLS teams, TFC included, will have very mixed rosters - the 8 international spots coming from all over the world and the 22 spots made up of a few players they develop themselves and others from other MLS academies and NCAA.

So, sure, higher skill level is always a good idea, but I think what Winter finally realized and started making trades to deal with is the fact that the pool of players he has to draw from is limited and likely will be for quite a while. He's going to need to figure out how to be successful with a very mixed bag, but it does look like this is a good start.

[canadian_bhoy]

No MLS player should ever utter a statement about the quality of someone else.

Maybe if players in MLS weren't such a bunch of hacks, they'd be able execute the system better. Maybe Winter is giving these guys too much credit and doesn't realize they're too dumb to play the system.

[__wowza]

It is ridiculous not to believe gordon, because the evidence for what hes saying is staring you in the face and has been for the whole season.

its ridiculous to suggest he concocted this story out of bitterness and decided to impart it to some random guy at a train station, and the real reason the team play awkward, below their abilities and look confused has nothing to do with winter, but more to do with alan gordon's attitude.

Given that Gordon definitely wasnt the problem in the team, and doesnt have any excuses to make for himself, I think its more than ridiculous to doubt him.


its not a matter of the story being a bitter one, its just a persons opinion. what one person says isnt necessarily what everyone else hears. the best proof i have, as to why we needed better players came from this:

"He said they do a lot of passing drills in practice, more than he's ever seen"

if you focus on passing so much, how come the same plays so consistently give the ball away? is that the coaches fault? or is he understanding that we routinely give the ball away and trying to fix it? if he is trying to fix it, why do the same players commit the same mistakes?

[Ageroo]

1. Who's worshipping Winter?

2. What's wrong with saying you don't like a players character?

http://wordsofinspiration0.intuitwebsites.com/Uptown_Winter_Worship_Concert.jpg

http://www.ookoodook.com/store/media/t-shirts/DontHateTheCharacterLarge.jpg

[Pookie]

Because I don't think they have any replacements lined up.

And so once again we'd be waiting for months for some consultant to find a suitable replacement.

What's waiting a few months when one guy can turn things around overnight? Overnight turnarounds are the baseline standard after all.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Well, the way I see it Winter and De Klerk were brought in the run the senior team and the develop academy, with the help of Mariner to work the ins and outs of MLS.

I hardly see the point of Winter developing an academy under one system but for the players to graduate to a senior side playing another. It's all happening at the same time under the same supervisor out of necessity.

Ultimately I'd agree - that the academy will be managed by someone other than the senior team's manager, but it would still all have to be under the watchful eye of a director.

it has been suggested for a bit that De Klerk is really the head coach and has been for a bit

[menefreghista]

What's waiting a few months when one guy can turn things around overnight? Overnight turnarounds are the baseline standard after all.

I wasn't expecting TFC to win the MLS Cup this season. But I also wasn't expecting TFC to be worse than its season 1 team.

[Beach_Red]

No MLS player should ever utter a statement about the quality of someone else.

Maybe if players in MLS weren't such a bunch of hacks, they'd be able execute the system better. Maybe Winter is giving these guys too much credit and doesn't realize they're too dumb to play the system.

Hey come on, just because they couldn't make the basketball team or the baseball team or the football team or the track team or even the hockey team and had to end up on the soccer team in America is no reason to call them dumb. They've been humiliated enough ;).

[jloome]

At this point in time, it's illogical to come to any conclusions one way or another.

I haven't read a single post declaring Winter as the savior of this franchise, yet you and a few others are already certain that his long term vision and short term plan are destined to fail. If 90 minutes of of football is all you require to evaluate the rebuilt roster, I envy your sense of intuitiveness.

I genuinely respect your opinion, but I don't understand the incessant need to convince everyone else that patience is not required, or the notion that it is irrational to have faith in a plan that hasn't even been given a fair chance to come to fruition.

Inevitably, you may be right, but can we observe the new roster for a few games first?

Well said. The aggressive lobbying is incessant and irritating to the extreme. The only people lowering the bar to the immediate are the same four or five naysayers, a couple of whom started seeding doubt the day he got here.

My instinct says they may well be right. But it's brutally unfair to draw the conclusion at this point that the man has failed because he couldn't, essentially, bleed North American soccer out of an MLS team in a few months.

[jloome]

My doubts about Winter at this point mainly relate to tactical decisions, and I don't really have an issue with MLS lifers who don't get what Winter is teaching (i.e. I fall into theory #2, the players are crap). The Dutch have a reputation of being stubborn, and while not wanting to typecast, Winter largely fits the stereotype: you're going to play football his way, he's not going to change, or you're gone.

I actually don't have a problem with that as far as the players go. The players at this club have been coddled too much, to the point that (as one article put it) they treat it more like a pastime than a job. Preki was supposed to change all that, but he was forced out by a conspiracy of the usual suspects among the players (the same bunch that got rid of Dale Mitchell as CMNT coach) and some assistant coaches who wanted his job. The culture didn't change. Ship 'em all out, if you have to, I say.

Where I have a problem with Winter's stubborness is that he will always play the same Ajax formation, even when an amateur coach like myself can see that a different formation would work better. Now (as one person put it) Winter has forgotten more about football than all of this board knows put together, but his stubborness keeps him from some sensible changes. Whether this will keep him from forming a winning team (in practice, only about 20% of a team's performance is due to the coach, according to Paul James, the rest is squad quality) remains to be seen.

From what we know of those involved, this seems the most realistic scenario. He may also not be able to motivate; even if you get players smart enough to play the system there are days when they need a push, although Bob De Klerk seems pretty positive at that end.

[Whoop]

I have yet to see "cult worship" status here, just people willing to give him some rope. You want to use the rope to hang him already, that's just the difference.

As far as time unemployed, let's just take at random Portsmouth's coach, Stuart Gray. Not a big name like a Sir Alex, so that is the appropriate level to compare with MLS.

He was unemployed for nearly a year between being sacked at Southampton, and taking over at Aston Villa in a caretaker role in 2002. Then he filled in with other assistant coaching and temporary positions and didn't return to first team coaching until 2007.

But he was never out of work for more than a few months.

Most coaches when the lose a job, especially at the lower ranks, will accept an assistant coach's position in order to "stay in the game" and to wait for another opportunity at a head coaching position.

Happens in every sport at every level. The longer you stay out of the game the easier you are forgotten.

I guarantee you'll see more desperation from Winter especially in the off-season if things don't go well down the stretch. Why? He's going to need results next season in order to keep his job because if he doesn't odds of him getting a 1st division coaching job are slim.

[Pookie]

^ re: oldtimer and the players being coddled too much

A player who is no longer here commented to me at the end of last season that one of the reasons for their disappointing seasons was that "a number of the guys enjoyed living the Toronto nightlife a little too much." He was hoping that with changes (players and coaches) that this issue would be addressed.

I wish this particular player all the best and thank him for speaking directly with my son regarding his own soccer development.

[jloome]

I also think that some fans have so much faith invested in Winter to turn this team around that they can't fathom he might have been a mistake.

And you base this on what? No one here is defending the job he's done so far, they're just saying it's premature to fire him.

[Whoop]

I don't think anyone is advocating firing him.

But it will be interesting to see next season if he stays the course or starts to make changes to save his bacon.

[menefreghista]

And you base this on what? No one here is defending the job he's done so far, they're just saying it's premature to fire him.

Based on comments on this forum.

I'm not cataloging them for you. But there are a lot of people who over-rate Winter's resume. Check the early part of this thread if you want.

[menefreghista]

But it will be interesting to see next season if he stays the course or starts to make changes to save his bacon.

As Beach Red has mentioned, I think they already have changed the course.

[jloome]

Based on comments on this forum.

I'm not cataloging them for you. But there are a lot of people who over-rate Winter's resume. Check the early part of this thread if you want.

Ad hominems are easy but also valueless. Didn't you just say you felt you had the right to criticize Winter's performance?

What does his resume at Ajax or fans' opinions of him, which you've basically misstated anyway, have to do with his performance?

[rocker]

And you base this on what? No one here is defending the job he's done so far, they're just saying it's premature to fire him.

Exactly!

Winter may turn out to be an abject failure. He may turn out to be a great success. I would never say right now, after he's had 6 months on the job, that either one of these will come true. I hold the position that we must wait to see the truth of either statement.

I also argue that some of the coaches that get a lot of praise did not get the job done in 6 months. Arena didn't in LA (and Arena failed in NY). Hyndman didn't in Dallas. Kreis didn't in RSL. Schmidt didn't in Columbus. But those coaches didn't have the rabid fanbase of TFC watching every move and the baggage that goes with it.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I dont see evidence of them 'changing the course'
I see they brought in new players.
I dont see how JK would have wanted them to keep the old players or would have put 'his vision' for Winter to follow. Wouldnt make sense IMO.

JK was hired as a consultant to find a coach (or coaches) to supplement a certain style. He did that and he helped bring in a player (Frings) as well, outside of that theres nothing saying that he had a blueprint they needed to follow and they have just broken from his blue print.

[Pookie]

^ re: defending the job he's done

I'd go on record as saying that given the talent level of the team up until the transfer window, he has done an ok job relative to expectations.

Specifically, he had a bottom table team that got hammered by the top clubs, took some points away from the mid table teams and had a 2-1-3 record against bottom table teams. About what you'd expect given the talent level.

Now, as of July 15th, we look to have improved our roster and have appeared to move into the mid-table with respect to talent. I would therefore expect our record against lower and mid-table teams to be improved and for us to compete for wins/draws against top table teams.

I do think it is way too early to pull the plug. Part of his job, along with Mariner is player development and acquisition. He seems to have done well at transforming the roster to this point. Now, the results need to come over time to match what he's done on paper.

[BFin]

1. Who's worshipping Winter?

2. What's wrong with saying you don't like a players character?

You know better than to expect a response about a legitimate question.

[TFCin110]

I dunno. I just don't know of any team on this planet that judges their head coach of the senior team by the results or talent produced by the Academy and I don't see why we should be the first.

As for time...I have never disagreed that time is necessary to get to the ultimate results, whether it be the MLS Cup or Supporter's Shield or other type of notable success. But that is the fallacy in the accusation against those of us on this side of the opinion. None of us are asking for that in this first year, not even in the 2nd year. Our argument is quite simply that regardless of the rebuild, any team that plays this poorly, that gets outscored this much, that has this much trouble scoring, that has this much drama and contract squabbling...that a team like that isn't in the shape it is in because of the rebuild. That is a sign of poor management and no team in MLS that has been rebuilt properly went through this kind of incompetence for this long a period of time.

7 months after his hiring, this team got beat 5-0 and 2-0 in consecutive weeks. It got beat 6-2 the month before. Those results may...MAY have been understandable in the first few weeks of his regime, but not after 2.5 months of preseason, an entire NCC tournament and 21 weeks of regular season. On most professional clubs, the manager would have been sacked by now. The case is even more condemning when you factor in issues like parity, cap space and a practically full stadium.

Now given these facts...for me to have faith and give Winter "time" I'd need something to balance the scales. It has been a fruitless endeavour to get someone to give us something to grasp and hold on to in order to believe in the newly minted saviour. All we get is this argument of "time". You could give me 10 years and I won't get this club to where it needs to be. What makes Winter deserving of any time other than Anselmi's decision to hire him?

I don't know of another club in the worl who's first team manager was hired based on his insistence that resultswould be predicated on the ability to establish a system within then academy. This is a unique situation and my comment was based on our situation rather than a blanket statement about academies throughout the world. But surely you can see how the manager is the one calling the shots regading how the academy is to be brought up. So indirectly, the first manager is responsible for the academy. One of Alex Ferguson's biggest complaints was the non-existence of an academy under Ron Atkinson. He didn't put in the time to recruit the talent and give the academy any sort of direction.

[Beach_Red]

I dont see evidence of them 'changing the course'
I see they brought in new players.
I dont see how JK would have wanted them to keep the old players or would have put 'his vision' for Winter to follow. Wouldnt make sense IMO.

JK was hired as a consultant to find a coach (or coaches) to supplement a certain style. He did that and he helped bring in a player (Frings) as well, outside of that theres nothing saying that he had a blueprint they needed to follow and they have just broken from his blue print.

I'm basing it a little on the history of TFC and MLSE and on Winter's statement tjat now he was goimg to start trading players. Between the time the last coach and GM were fired and these ones were hired were guys negotiating conracts and making trades who are still here. And there's a guy running the team (Anselmi) who has no idea about the sport and brought in a consultant and then the coach they hired was inexperienced and the team started the season playing very poorly. It just seemed like a bad situation with no one really stepping up and being in charge until Winter a couple weeks ago. Which, again, given the situation, was natural he'd have to wait until he really had a feel for the place. Office politics are tough and MLSE has always seemed to have more than its share of divided loyalties, internal strife and power struggles. It just doesn't seem a straightforward place.

And, frankly, in many ways it reminds of the office politics of the TV shows and movie sets I've worked on where sometimes the producer is in charge, sometimes the director and sometimes the star really runs things. Never straightforward, but what ego-filled organization full of power struggles wheree people get fired all the time ever is?

[Oldtimer]

I

At the same time I do think MLSE/TFC should be making a list of possible replacements in the background. You never know when a team is this bad.

You have to look no further than Mariner. That is the genius of this set-up. Klinsmann hedged the bets.

[Oldtimer]

^ You know Beach Red might possibly be onto something with the "who's in charge?"
I'm starting to be convinced.

[Oldtimer]

Exactly!

Winter may turn out to be an abject failure. He may turn out to be a great success. I would never say right now, after he's had 6 months on the job, that either one of these will come true. I hold the position that we must wait to see the truth of either statement.

I also argue that some of the coaches that get a lot of praise did not get the job done in 6 months. Arena didn't in LA (and Arena failed in NY). Hyndman didn't in Dallas. Kreis didn't in RSL. Schmidt didn't in Columbus. But those coaches didn't have the rabid fanbase of TFC watching every move and the baggage that goes with it.

Agreed, well put.

[Section 117]

I have had a lot of conversations with players that are with the club at the moment and many that are no longer here. I can honestly say that there is quite a difference between the European trained players and the North Amaerican based players. From they way they interact with fans to the basic knowledge of tatics and formations.

I can completely understand Winter's lack of patiences with the NA players. The majority of them have no clue what it takes to be a professional and how tatics are effective. A lot of them are athletes that weren't good enough for other sports and this is there fall back. They don't have a soccer IQ when talking tatics and a lot of them aren't willing to put in the time after practice to make themselves better players.

Winter and DeKlerk are very old school in their mentality and they expect a certain level of professionalism that these players lack. The whole we pass to much at practice is a fucking bullshit comment. Have the team still doesn't know how and if you been to practices in Europe this is a comon thing. Maybe not to the extent they do here are the majority of the players still can't grasp the basics of soccer how are they going to understand a highly technical formation and responsibilities?

With respect to throwing people under the bus. Maybe if the players who were acted like professionals and took what they did seriously Winter wouldn't make these comments. Preki took shots at players after he left, carver took shots while in charge and if I remeber correctly so did Cummins. So instead of always blaming the coach why can't it be the players with the ones that are the problem.

Rome wasn't built in a day, this club has flounder for 4 1/2 years. If we contstantly want to change the coach we will never have reach the goal we all want. This is now Winter's team and IMO we will see a dramatic difference the last half of the season. Do I like that we blew threw half a year no but in the winter transfer market it is alot harder to get players as they are probably with teams till June. So now it is Winter's time shine here is hoping for the best.

Also, I want to thank all the players that have left, for their contribution or lack there of for the most part and all if they back handed shots they take after they leave IMO just shows that lack of professionalism

[pekduck]

I have had a lot of conversations with players that are with the club at the moment and many that are no longer here. I can honestly say that there is quite a difference between the European trained players and the North Amaerican based players. From they way they interact with fans to the basic knowledge of tatics and formations.

I can completely understand Winter's lack of patiences with the NA players. The majority of them have no clue what it takes to be a professional and how tatics are effective. A lot of them are athletes that weren't good enough for other sports and this is there fall back. They don't have a soccer IQ when talking tatics and a lot of them aren't willing to put in the time after practice to make themselves better players.

Winter and DeKlerk are very old school in their mentality and they expect a certain level of professionalism that these players lack. The whole we pass to much at practice is a fucking bullshit comment. Have the team still doesn't know how and if you been to practices in Europe this is a comon thing. Maybe not to the extent they do here are the majority of the players still can't grasp the basics of soccer how are they going to understand a highly technical formation and responsibilities?

With respect to throwing people under the bus. Maybe if the players who were acted like professionals and took what they did seriously Winter wouldn't make these comments. Preki took shots at players after he left, carver took shots while in charge and if I remeber correctly so did Cummins. So instead of always blaming the coach why can't it be the players with the ones that are the problem.

Rome wasn't built in a day, this club has flounder for 4 1/2 years. If we contstantly want to change the coach we will never have reach the goal we all want. This is now Winter's team and IMO we will see a dramatic difference the last half of the season. Do I like that we blew threw half a year no but in the winter transfer market it is alot harder to get players as they are probably with teams till June. So now it is Winter's time shine here is hoping for the best.

Also, I want to thank all the players that have left, for their contribution or lack there of for the most part and all if they back handed shots they take after they leave IMO just shows that lack of professionalism

finally a post i agree with

[v00d00daddy]

You know better than to expect a response about a legitimate question.


True enough.

Its funny. When you ask plain and simple questions...minus sarcasm and anything inflammatory you get no responses.

[ensco]

True enough.

Its funny. When you ask plain and simple questions...minus sarcasm and anything inflammatory you get no responses.

Or people could just be busy for a couple of hours.

[ensco]

2. What's wrong with saying you don't like a players character?

Nothing.

I expect our manager, any manager, to show some class and say what he needs to say in private.

[menefreghista]

True enough.

Its funny. When you ask plain and simple questions...minus sarcasm and anything inflammatory you get no responses.

I answered the first question and your second didn't concern me.

The skeptics are still waiting for the pro-Winter posters to provide compelling signs or reasons why they think Winter is doing a good job. Meanwhile evidence mounts that he's out of his depth.

[Couchy81]

The skeptics are still waiting for the pro-Winter posters to provide compelling signs or reasons why they think Winter is doing a good job. Meanwhile evidence mounts that he's out of his depth.

At this point it's all discussion for the sake of discussion. I don't think the "pro-Winter" posters think he's a good coach. I think that is yet to be seen, the only argument being made is that it takes time and results cannot be fully analyzed in 6 months. Our record is clear indication of one of three things: poor players, poor coaching, a combination of the two. We can essentially wipe the first and third options from that list now that the team is mostly Winter's, so results going forward will be a better indication of his abilities.

[Heathen]

True enough.

Its funny. When you ask plain and simple questions...minus sarcasm and anything inflammatory you get no responses.

That goes all ways and has nothing to do with which side of the fence you happen to be on

[ManUtd4ever]

Nothing.

I expect our manager, any manager, to show some class and say what he needs to say in private.

Winter did not direct his comments at any particular individual, it was a general reference to the character of the locker room he inherited. Obviously, it was an indirect reference to one or more of the players that have been traded, but he didn't single anyone out, and perhaps there is some truth to his comments.

In any event, expectations regarding class and decorum should apply to both management and players alike. In my opinion, taking parting shots at a former employer is a serious indictment of one's character.

[TFCRegina]

Winter did not direct his comments at any particular individual, it was a general reference to the character of the locker room he inherited. Obviously, it was an indirect reference to one or more of the players that have been traded, but he didn't single anyone out, and perhaps there is some truth to his comments.

In any event, expectations regarding class and decorum should apply to both management and players alike. In my opinion, taking parting shots at a former employer is a serious indictment of one's character.

So it's ok when a coach does this, but when a player does it, it's sour grapes and classless?

[ManUtd4ever]

At this point it's all discussion for the sake of discussion. I don't think the "pro-Winter" posters think he's a good coach. I think that is yet to be seen, the only argument being made is that it takes time and results cannot be fully analyzed in 6 months. Our record is clear indication of one of three things: poor players, poor coaching, a combination of the two. We can essentially wipe the first and third options from that list now that the team is mostly Winter's, so results going forward will be a better indication of his abilities.

Bingo.

[Oldtimer]

At this point it's all discussion for the sake of discussion. I don't think the "pro-Winter" posters think he's a good coach. I think that is yet to be seen, the only argument being made is that it takes time and results cannot be fully analyzed in 6 months. Our record is clear indication of one of three things: poor players, poor coaching, a combination of the two. We can essentially wipe the first and third options from that list now that the team is mostly Winter's, so results going forward will be a better indication of his abilities.

... but it will take time for the team to meld.

Next year's results are what we can judge. And judge them we shall.

[PopePouri]

The skeptics are still waiting for the pro-Winter posters to provide compelling signs or reasons why they think Winter is doing a good job.

For us Winter-worshippers, there's not enough evidence to make a final judgement.

Winter (peace be upon Him) can probably be assessed after this transfer window and what results we're getting.


Meanwhile evidence mounts that he's out of his depth.

The evidence is relative to you and other skeptics.

[ManUtd4ever]

So it's ok when a coach does this, but when a player does it, it's sour grapes and classless?

No, I said it should apply both ways. Again, Winter didn't villify any specific individuals with his comments, he commented on the overall character in the locker room, as other coaches have in the past.

[backbeat]

... but it will take time for the team to meld.

Next year's results are what we can judge. And judge them we shall.

With this I completely agree and have said as much since the new management was announced. This year was rebuild and next year I too will look for results.

I am not into dumping the management team/coach every 6 months, they need some time to implement their style, which is this WHOLE year.

[backbeat]

I have had a lot of conversations with players that are with the club at the moment and many that are no longer here. I can honestly say that there is quite a difference between the European trained players and the North Amaerican based players. From they way they interact with fans to the basic knowledge of tatics and formations.

I can completely understand Winter's lack of patiences with the NA players. The majority of them have no clue what it takes to be a professional and how tatics are effective. A lot of them are athletes that weren't good enough for other sports and this is there fall back. They don't have a soccer IQ when talking tatics and a lot of them aren't willing to put in the time after practice to make themselves better players.

Winter and DeKlerk are very old school in their mentality and they expect a certain level of professionalism that these players lack. The whole we pass to much at practice is a fucking bullshit comment. Have the team still doesn't know how and if you been to practices in Europe this is a comon thing. Maybe not to the extent they do here are the majority of the players still can't grasp the basics of soccer how are they going to understand a highly technical formation and responsibilities?

With respect to throwing people under the bus. Maybe if the players who were acted like professionals and took what they did seriously Winter wouldn't make these comments. Preki took shots at players after he left, carver took shots while in charge and if I remeber correctly so did Cummins. So instead of always blaming the coach why can't it be the players with the ones that are the problem.

Rome wasn't built in a day, this club has flounder for 4 1/2 years. If we contstantly want to change the coach we will never have reach the goal we all want. This is now Winter's team and IMO we will see a dramatic difference the last half of the season. Do I like that we blew threw half a year no but in the winter transfer market it is alot harder to get players as they are probably with teams till June. So now it is Winter's time shine here is hoping for the best.

Also, I want to thank all the players that have left, for their contribution or lack there of for the most part and all if they back handed shots they take after they leave IMO just shows that lack of professionalism

^this

[ManUtd4ever]

... but it will take time for the team to meld.

Next year's results are what we can judge. And judge them we shall.

Agreed, but there are enough games left in the regular season as well as the CCL qualifier to gauge if the club is improving. Given the level of talent on the roster, if the team does not have a respectable record from this point forward, then there will be just cause for skepticism.

[Section 117]

What blows mind is that the moment a player says something derogatory against the coaching staff it is as if it is the truth and there is no way that they are wrong. A lot people hop on it and harp that it is all managements fault and give no possibility that the players are the ones that are useless. Why is that???


To people who want proof that Winter is a good coach. There isnt much at the moment, but when you are stuck with at best a roster filled with MLS rejects what do you expect unless you want Preki ball 11 guys defending all game. We need to judge Winter on th remaining games as it is now his team.

[backbeat]

Agreed, but there are enough games left in the regular season as well as the CCL qualifier to gauge if the club is improving. Given the level of talent on the roster, if the team does not have a respectable record from this point forward, then there will be just cause for skepticism.

As much as i agree that we should, and i think will, see better results the 2nd half I am still giving them the whole year. This team needs time to gel and there is still a lot of work to do on the back line. To me next year is where I believe the judgement of the work starts.

[Beach_Red]

What blows mind is that the moment a player says something derogatory against the coaching staff it is as if it is the truth and there is no way that they are wrong. A lot people hop on it and harp that it is all managements fault and give no possibility that the players are the ones that are useless. Why is that???


Because management is in charge, it's their game to control. In this case all that happened was a player who got traded said the team wasn't responding well to the coaches. That's all really. There isn't much point in calling them "MLS rejects," or "dumb north Americans" or the many other things they've been called in this thread. It's likely they're doing the best they can but they aren't in charge.

[kaos197O]

What blows mind is that the moment a player says something derogatory against the coaching staff it is as if it is the truth and there is no way that they are wrong. A lot people hop on it and harp that it is all managements fault and give no possibility that the players are the ones that are useless. Why is that???


To people who want proof that Winter is a good coach. There isnt much at the moment, but when you are stuck with at best a roster filled with MLS rejects what do you expect unless you want Preki ball 11 guys defending all game. We need to judge Winter on th remaining games as it is now his team.

What blows my mind is that such a high level of professionalism is expected of players making $40-$80 k's a year. I mean really. Many simple factory positions that require a grade 10 education are making that kind of money and I assure you that they have NO IDEA what being professional entails.

I get that Winter/Deklerk might want their players to have a "Football is Life" mentality and be absolute professionals at the same time, but at those wages and with little room for wage increases in a salary capped league, it's asking an awful lot. Especially when Winter throws them under the bus, publicly, once or twice, as he's done in the past with some of our players.

You reap what you sew and some of it has come back full circle now. Big deal. Hopefully Winter will learn from his mistakes and all of this will be a non issue next year. If he continues to what he has done, he will continue to get what he's gotten. It's simple.

I didn't read this entire thread and am not sure if Gordon has publicly stated anything like what's in the initial post, but I honestly don't see the big deal in him telling a fan the truth about how he felt about his time here and his thoughts of our coach. Bitter or not, he should be able to have a life and be able to speak freely about his feelings on a situation. What's the big deal?

[Section 117]

I'm sorry whether you make $17,000 or $200,000 or whatever. It doesn't give the players to act unprofessionaly. It is their bloody job, they don't like it they can go fuck off amd find a new career. And yes I stand by the MLS reject comment. How many players on our roster would start for any other team in this league not any other league this league.

Beach you didn't answer the question just by stating they are management. The moral high ground some people hold the FO to should apply to the players as well. I

[pekduck]

I'm sorry whether you make $17,000 or $200,000 or whatever. It doesn't give the players to act unprofessionaly. It is their bloody job, they don't like it they can go fuck off amd find a new career. And yes I stand by the MLS reject comment. How many players on our roster would start for any other team in this league not any other league this league.

Beach you didn't answer the question just by stating they are management. The moral high ground some people hold the FO to should apply to the players as well. I

totally agree

if someone at workplace gives the excuse of low pay as a reason of not delivering quality, i'd fire that person on the spot

[ensco]

117, What's interesting is that so many of our ex players do it. That makes it noteworthy. Also, I believe Gordon because we look confused out there.

Maybe when Winter has beaten more the one nonexpansion team, I'll listen more.

Also your premise is wrong. The posts are running 5 to 1 for Winter anyway. Enjoy.

[Beach_Red]

I'm sorry whether you make $17,000 or $200,000 or whatever. It doesn't give the players to act unprofessionaly. It is their bloody job, they don't like it they can go fuck off amd find a new career. And yes I stand by the MLS reject comment. How many players on our roster would start for any other team in this league not any other league this league.

Beach you didn't answer the question just by stating they are management. The moral high ground some people hold the FO to should apply to the players as well. I

It's not a question of morality, it's about building a winning team. This thread started because someone bumped into a former player and had a conversation. My take was that it was pleasant and the player was explaining why he thought the team was having trouble - there were communications issues between the players and the coaches. And I feel if that's the case it's up to the coaches to work on it and help this team win. They are in charge.

The receiving end of the communication can't make it clearer.

[Brooker]

What blows my mind is that such a high level of professionalism is expected of players making $40-$80 k's a year.

So when does one have to start acting professional? When they make 200k? 500k? 1 million? 5 million?

I had no idea acting professional was only expected if you're rich. :D

[kaos197O]

I'm sorry whether you make $17,000 or $200,000 or whatever. It doesn't give the players to act unprofessionaly. It is their bloody job, they don't like it they can go fuck off amd find a new career. And yes I stand by the MLS reject comment. How many players on our roster would start for any other team in this league not any other league this league.

Beach you didn't answer the question just by stating they are management. The moral high ground some people hold the FO to should apply to the players as well. I
Just because you are unprofessional doesn't mean that you need to get a new job. We just took on 2 players that the Columbus FO were having a great deal of trouble with. some could say the are/were unprofessional. Now they have a clean slate. Should we not have signed them?

As for Winter, he says some of his players are not good enough, publicly.....some players say that Winter is not good enough, publicly.......so if the players are unprofessional, so too must be Winter. NO? :noidea:

There is a saying that change needs to happen at the top and then trickle down......lead by example.....that's how you earn the respect of your staff. Not sure that's really happening here yet.

BTW.....I have met some very productive and effective employees that are completely unprofessional. While it is taxing to manage them, they are a great asset if one can manage them effectively.

[Pookie]

117, What's interesting is that so many of our ex players do it.

Many had specific comments about Mo. He's gone.

As for the departed under Winter, DeRo... yeah, not putting much stock in that fellow's comments. His baggage is well known through the league.

We have a couple of others, one in a contract dispute and one who made some comments to a guy in an airport which may or may not be taken out of context.

[kaos197O]

So when does one have to start acting professional? When they make 200k? 500k? 1 million? 5 million?

I had no idea acting professional was only expected if you're rich. :D
okay....you got me there :D. I don't know why, but I do have higher expectations of those who make more and have more power than the rest. I guess, since we live in a world that's all about equality, I should hold every single person to the same high standards that I would hold the PM to.

[Pookie]

The skeptics are still waiting for the pro-Winter posters to provide compelling signs or reasons why they think Winter is doing a good job.

http://my.newhighscore.com/src/skepticalHippo.jpg

... Skeptical Hippo is skeptical that the skeptics are really true skeptics

[BFin]

This thread is the last straw...

[v00d00daddy]

That goes all ways and has nothing to do with which side of the fence you happen to be on

Absolutely.

[v00d00daddy]

Because management is in charge, it's their game to control. In this case all that happened was a player who got traded said the team wasn't responding well to the coaches. That's all really. There isn't much point in calling them "MLS rejects," or "dumb north Americans" or the many other things they've been called in this thread. It's likely they're doing the best they can but they aren't in charge.


Actually...I think its more accurate to say that it was suggested that "some" of the team weren't responding well to the coaches.

[Beach_Red]

Actually...I think its more accurate to say that it was suggested that "some" of the team weren't responding well to the coaches.

Yes, that's more accurate.

[v00d00daddy]

It's not a question of morality, it's about building a winning team. This thread started because someone bumped into a former player and had a conversation. My take was that it was pleasant and the player was explaining why he thought the team was having trouble - there were communications issues between the players and the coaches. And I feel if that's the case it's up to the coaches to work on it and help this team win. They are in charge.

The receiving end of the communication can't make it clearer.

And some might suggest that (some of) the receiving end are incapable of comprehension.

Plainly put. There were, and continue to be, players on this team that simply don't have the football brains to learn what Winter and de Klerk are trying to teach them. Add to that the fact that some don't have the technical ability to apply what they've learned, even if they understand it and you get a bunch of players shipped out in favour of other players who can hopefully succeed.

Unfortunately the players shipped out are nice guys and CMNT players and so we feel the need to defend them...but at the end of the day they're not up to snuff. Maybe some, like Gordon, are up to snuff but there is just no room for them. It happens.

The jury is still out on whether or not Winter has it tactically or if he can impart his knowledge on to other players but I don't think its a stretch to say he knows when he sees a player with talent and he knows when fundamentals are lacking.

Fuck...I can see it from watching one open practice.

[Beach_Red]

^ Yes, this is why I think they've changed course, a little. The long-range plan is likely still in place but the reality that 22 places on an MLS roster must be filled by domestic players has kicked in and is being dealt with.

[Roogsy]

Just to make this clear for myself, North American players are lazy, talentless, whiney, entitled, unprofessional, disloyal and ungrateful? Did I miss anything? These players should get on their knees and thank whoever it is they pray to that they are allowed to play soccer at some of the lowest professional sports wages on the planet and the only ones that can say anything negative about anything or anyone are the coaches? Got it.

It makes me ask the questions: Why does Winter want to coach here and why do we fans bother with TFC and MLS? Unless of course we are planning on moving our franchise to the Eredivisie?

[Roogsy]

I'm sorry whether you make $17,000 or $200,000 or whatever. It doesn't give the players to act unprofessionaly. It is their bloody job, they don't like it they can go fuck off amd find a new career. And yes I stand by the MLS reject comment. How many players on our roster would start for any other team in this league not any other league this league.


Well considering that most of the players that have left usually find starting or substitute roles elsewhere apparently quite a few.

And can someone explain to me why the coach can throw players under the bus but the players can't give their opinions about what is going on with the team? How is one professional and the other is not?

[Roogsy]

At this point it's all discussion for the sake of discussion. I don't think the "pro-Winter" posters think he's a good coach. I think that is yet to be seen, the only argument being made is that it takes time and results cannot be fully analyzed in 6 months. Our record is clear indication of one of three things: poor players, poor coaching, a combination of the two. We can essentially wipe the first and third options from that list now that the team is mostly Winter's, so results going forward will be a better indication of his abilities.


The "Pro-Winter" crowd give lip-service to this "waiting" idea but they've long since accepted he is doing a good job otherwise they would be more skeptical, more understanding of our skepticism and less inclined to chastise others for not showing "faith". Only those that already have faith try to impose such faith on others. It's like they're European colonists and we are some poor natives from the Caribbean about to experience chicken pox for the first time...I am having flashbacks!

[ensco]

I know you can ignore posters, but can you block words? I want to make it so that I can ignore every thread that has the word "entitle" in it.

[ensco]

^ Yes, this is why I think they've changed course, a little. The long-range plan is likely still in place but the reality that 22 places on an MLS roster must be filled by domestic players has kicked in and is being dealt with.

Also the reality that we have one victory in 19 games against non-expansion teams.

[Roogsy]

We must be the only team in MLS with North American players since so many teams have knocked us around like ragdolls.

Beacuse clearly North American players should never play professional soccer.

[Whoop]

Good article.

So if it took Barcelona 20 years, I guess we'll have to wait just as long. LOL

http://www.leadersinperformance.com/the-leader/chris-sulley-youth-development-best-practice-in-european-professional-football/

[DangerRed]

I may take a bit of flack for this.. but it's okay, because I have on my crucifying-shorts and a clean pair of underwear - boxer-briefs, if you must know - ready to meet my maker.



Does it seem, to any of you, like inside info. from this board (and probably others, but I couldn't say), is often shared with an underlying motive to gain status points?

Under the thin veil of "hoping they're wrong," people will proceed to post information that they know will only fan the flames -- like giving a child candy and asking him/her not to eat it. It's widely agreed by most that Winter should stay on, at least until this time next season.. but then the same people of whom subscribe to the importance of us keeping a coach for more than one season will go out of their way to discredit him and stir the pot.

I liked what Alan Gordon had to say before he left (whilst it was still his problem), when he mentioned about it being important to believe in the coach and his system.. because if you start to question and doubt, it doesn't help things (if someone could find and post his direct quote, that'd be great).

I don't fully agree with it, though; I believe that timing is everything and it would be important to simply show your support throughout the season, reserving criticisms for when things are winding down and over the course of the off-season (less distracting).

I just feel like, instead of looking to be the person that start "this" or "that" conversation - the coveted OP, as it were - we should ask ourselves if posting this information is truly, as you would claim, in the best interest of the club. Maybe it's just a timing thing, but I get the impression that, for many, this is more of a popularity contest and the media will only follow suit.



Oh, I see -- I should only share conversations when players tell me everything is sunshine and lollypops, not when someone's unhappy. I'll definitely keep that in mind for the future, and in the meantime, I humbly ask you to take your head out of your ass and spend some time thinking about the difference between blind-faith boosterism and true support.

Oh, and yes, this'll probably earn me a strike for a personal attack, so I apologize in advance.

Oh, and before the question is asked, yes, I would've posted this if Gordon had nothing but amazing things to say about the management and was full of regrets that he was leaving.

He said he was just settling into the city and liked living here, if that's any consolation. Does that help lift your mood about the state of the team?

[Roogsy]

Seriously....status points?

Sharing info on this board has given me nothing but headaches. To the point where I now intentionally avoid becoming involved with the players and find other consultants to help them because at the moment I want as little to do with the inside track of this team as is possible. Ignorance is indeed bliss and I wish I had never gotten to know any of the players personally.

Status? More like nightmare.

And DangerRed just got a taste of that frustration. It would appear people simply want to hear platitudes and cliché remarks in the media and not honest opinions and true insight into the team.

[Roogsy]

your'e on fire today, Eugene. Your points about Nana are spot on.

How come nobody is questioning all these inarguables?.

a) The guy didnt convince DeRo to stay
b) He humiliated Cann in front of the cameras
c) He got rid of Gala
d) He dicked Attakora around, and kept him off the field and it looks like he turned the fans on him too.
e) its not the first time he's tried to turn the fans on specific players
f) the top talent at the academy aren't committing themselves and are getting cut.
g) he's had players limping on the pitch cause of his tactical errors and first half subbing
h) he's continually blaming the players for bad tactics
i) he's shown nothing but contempt for the fringe players and lower income team members.
j) he's hardly inspired DeGuzman to improve.
k) he's paying people to take players away.
l) he cant get results, and the form is worse than even a rebuilding team should be
m) exiting players are taking shots at him
n) One imported signing couldnt get out fast enough.

Right now, all we have to support the theory that he's building a solid foundation for the future is rhetoric.

If he loses the Real Esteli fixture and doesnt resign, he's gutless too.


http://www.vtstutorials.ac.uk/detective/image/case-closed-stamp.gif

[DangerRed]

Seriously....status points?

Sharing info on this board has given me nothing but headaches. To the point where I now intentionally avoid becoming involved with the players and find other consultants to help them because at the moment I want as little to do with the inside track of this team as is possible. Ignorance is indeed bliss and I wish I had never gotten to know any of the players personally.

Status? More like nightmare.

Agree, and I'm not even remotely as connected or routinely interacting with players as you are. Every single (rare) time I've shared any player meeting information on here or any inside track, I get bashed because either a) my credibility gets questioned, b) a bunch of people tell me "great story, but it's not surprising" even though they're surprised or c) people tell me it's bad for the club like in this instance.

It's not bad for the club. It might be bad for someone's deluded image of what this club is, but it in no way hurts the club. For me, it enriches my understanding of what's actually going on with this team, and I treat ex-player comments with a grain of salt ALWAYS. I guess I'll keep this stuff to myself from now on and only share with my buddies - no skin off my back.

[Roogsy]

Agree, and I'm not even remotely as connected or routinely interacting with players as you are. Every single (rare) time I've shared any player meeting information on here or any inside track, I get bashed because either a) my credibility gets questioned, b) a bunch of people tell me "great story, but it's not surprising" even though they're surprised or c) people tell me it's bad for the club like in this instance.

It's not bad for the club. It might be bad for someone's deluded image of what this club is, but it in no way hurts the club. For me, it enriches my understanding of what's actually going on with this team, and I treat ex-player comments with a grain of salt ALWAYS. I guess I'll keep this stuff to myself from now on and only share with my buddies - no skin off my back.

Can't blame you.

[backbeat]

http://www.vtstutorials.ac.uk/detective/image/case-closed-stamp.gif

well, have at it i suppose, i mean that's all i hear from a few here - again i am not ready to ride another management team outta town after half a year - but oh well i guess i'm just a lazy Toronto sod that's being duped...

[Whoop]

l) he cant get results, and the form is worse than even a rebuilding team should be


This to me really is the big one.

To me, it's not so much the losses. Losses happen. They will always happen. Even great teams lose.

It's the fact that even rebuilding teams don't get shit kicked week in and week out. Embarrassed.

How do you build a winning culture and a culture of how to win when you can't at least eke out some results?

So they decided to change that and grab some veteran players to get results when the season is already pooched.

[Pookie]

We must be the only team in MLS with North American players since so many teams have knocked us around like ragdolls.

Beacuse clearly North American players should never play professional soccer.

Oh geez.

How about you tell me how our (non-injured) pre-July 15th North Americans would stack up against other MLS clubs. Here's the list:

Attakora
Cann * injured
Cordon
De Guzman *injured
Gargan
Gold
Gordon *injured
Harden
Henry
Lindsay
Omphroy
Stinson
Sturgis


When you are done, fit the injured guys in too and try to tell me with a straight face that this former group of North Americans stacks up well against other MLS Clubs.

[v00d00daddy]

We must be the only team in MLS with North American players since so many teams have knocked us around like ragdolls.

Beacuse clearly North American players should never play professional soccer.

It's not about north American players being bad.

It's about getting north American players to stop playing and training like typical north American players.

There's a difference if you ask me

[Beach_Red]

^ Just curious, but how different is that from our roster at the end of last season? Or from January?

[ensco]

I guess I'll keep this stuff to myself from now on and only share with my buddies - no skin off my back.

Please don't. You are not alone. There are some people here interested in reality, no matter how painful the consequences of knowing, or acknowledging, the truth.

[v00d00daddy]

Before you read my replies please know that I'm not trying to argue my points here. I'm just stating them to show that there are different points of view on many (if not all) of these "inarguables".



How come nobody is questioning all these inarguables?.

a) The guy didnt convince DeRo to stay
1. DeRo played a HUGE part in not staying. IMO...good riddance.

b) He humiliated Cann in front of the cameras
2. Cann walked out on the team which Winter viewed as unprofessional and embarrassing to the club and offensive to (many) supporters. Winter stood behind him as he apologized. Not humiliating at all in my opinion. If Cann was humiliated maybe its because he knew walking out wasn't the right initial reaction.

c) He got rid of Gala
3. This kid plays in the CSL right now.

d) He dicked Attakora around, and kept him off the field and it looks like he turned the fans on him too.
4. DeRo 2.0

e) its not the first time he's tried to turn the fans on specific players
5. I don't think (and haven't seen any evidence of this) that Winter is deliberately trying to get fans to turn on specific players. How this is "unarguable" is plain laughable.

f) the top talent at the academy aren't committing themselves and are getting out.
6. One player. Who is "themselves"? BTW...said player didin't look anywhere near as good as he'd hoped at the u17 World Cup and his "options" for exploration have amounted to maybe being picked up by Vancouver. Could still be a huge loss to TFC but nothing has been determined here.

g) he's had players limping on the pitch cause of his tactical errors and first half subbing
7. I agree somewhat. I wasn't impressed with seeing Gordon come back too early. Peterson as well. Turns out...neither were in Winters long term plans so no big deal.

h) he's continually blaming the players for bad tactics
8. That's one interpretation of his post game comments. Another is that he expects pro players to be able to execute fundamentals of the game. Some of them can't. His poor tactics (which I agree I've seen from time to time) have nothing to do with him expecting players to be able to do basic things on the field.

i) he's shown nothing but contempt for the fringe players and lower income team members.
9. Right....that's why he dresses Stinson and Henry and Zavarise and Gargan etc.

j) he's hardly inspired DeGuzman to improve.
10. Who has? DeGuzman improving is on DeGuzman. It seems like little motivates him but it could also be lingering injuries. Who knows?

k) he's paying people to take players away.
11. He's paying people to take who away? He's getting rid of bad players and getting players back that he hopes/believes can help the team. BTW...he doesn't pay anyone...pretty sure those kind of decisions are on Mariner.

l) he cant get results, and the form is worse than even a rebuilding team should be
12. Yup. Bang on. I hope this changes over time. We'll see.

m) exiting players are taking shots at him
13. Players who are discarded (in every sport) often have nothing good to say. This is not unique to Winter. If Winter were to comment as frankly as Gordon (or others have) you'd be calling him unprofessional and accuse him of throwing players under the bus. If he gave the canned response of "We wish Alan all the best. He's a good player and will find success elsewhere"...you'd accuse him of being a puppet and gutless (just like you've already done pre-emptively at the end of your post)

n) One imported signing couldnt get out fast enough.
14. Probably a mutual thing. Stevanovic never looked great short of a flash here and there. One could say that the club couldn't get rid of him fast enough.

Right now, all we have to support the theory that he's building a solid foundation for the future is rhetoric.

If he loses the Real Esteli fixture and doesnt resign, he's gutless too.

You hate him. We get it.

Just don't talk about "inarguables". It's complete bullshit and arrogant.

Nothing is fact. It's all shades of grey. Many people see many different things many different ways.

You're entitled to your opinion but to suggest that any of the stuff you posted is "inarguable" is a joke.

[v00d00daddy]

There are some people here interested in reality, no matter how painful the consequences of knowing, or acknowledging, the truth.


Honest question.

For those of you (you, Exiled, Danger, Roogsy etc.) who see "reality" and have figured out the "truth":

If...(and that is a big if).....TFC improves and finds success.....what will you all say about your truth and reality?

I know exiled has already hedged his bets and gone on record and said that if they improve it will have nothing to do with what Winter has done so far.

But I'm curious to know what you guys will say if TFC gets good.

[ensco]

Honest question.

For those of you (you, Exiled, Danger, Roogsy etc.) who see "reality" and have figured out the "truth":

If...(and that is a big if).....TFC improves and finds success.....what will you all say about your truth and reality?

I know exiled has already hedged his bets and gone on record and said that if they improve it will have nothing to do with what Winter has done so far.

But I'm curious to know what you guys will say if TFC gets good.

Sure.

I'll wager you a pint we're going to suck the rest of 2011.

I loved the 2007 and 2008 teams. I still think, if Mo hadn't gotten involved in bunging, he'd be pretty well thought of around here. I actually never hated Preki, fwiw.

I have a question for you: if this board had the same composition of posters now as it did in 2009, what would have happened to Dichio when the FO was peddling the "he can't fly" fairy tale?

[Roogsy]

Ouch. He's not North American though. Can't be entitled.

As for your question Voodoo, that's a loaded question. Is your definition of "good" sneaking into 10th spot? If so, I won't be agreeing to any definition of success. But should Winter completely surprise me and post a winning record that confidently gets us into the playoffs, then I am perfectly willing to admit my error and shoot, I will buy a bunch of people beers.

But what if the opposite happens? What if we continue to be a middling team? And what if heaven forbid we miss the playoffs next year??? Are we just going to shrug our shoulders as we seem to be doing this year? Are we going to give him another year too many like we did to Mo and face a 7th year as the laughing stock of MLS? Is everyone here just going to absolve themselves of their responsibility and their share of blame? Because by being so willing to give the team all the slack with no accountability you can be damned sure some of the blame will fall on your shoulders.

[v00d00daddy]

Sure.

I'll wager you a pint we're going to suck the rest of 2011.

I loved the 2007 and 2008 teams. I still think, if Mo hadn't gotten involved in bunging, he'd be pretty well thought of around here. I actually never hated Preki, fwiw.

I have a question for you: if this board had the same composition of posters now as it did in 2009, what would have happened to Dichio when the FO was peddling the "he can't fly" fairy tale?

I'm not sure what would have happened to Dichio if the boards were different.

For me...I don't really care either way. Im not nostalgic about Dichio. It's not that I don't like him or am not happy with what he's done with the club...I just don't feel some kind of love and admiration for him or any other TFC player.

[v00d00daddy]

Ouch. He's not North American though. Can't be entitled.

As for your question Voodoo, that's a loaded question. Is your definition of "good" sneaking into 10th spot? If so, I won't be agreeing to any definition of success. But should Winter completely surprise me and post a winning record that confidently gets us into the playoffs, then I am perfectly willing to admit my error and shoot, I will buy a bunch of people beers.

But what if the opposite happens? What if we continue to be a middling team? And what if heaven forbid we miss the playoffs next year??? Are we just going to shrug our shoulders as we seem to be doing this year? Are we going to give him another year too many like we did to Mo and face a 7th year as the laughing stock of MLS? Is everyone here just going to absolve themselves of their responsibility and their share of blame? Because by being so willing to give the team all the slack with no accountability you can be damned sure some of the blame will fall on your shoulders.

For sure. If we're not competitive next year I'll be pissed and likely be singing the same tune as you are now.

And yes...good is a loaded question. But I don't expect to be "sneaking into the playoffs good"...I expect to be "oh man...I hate playing against TFC" good.

Whatever that means. Lol
We'll see.

[ensco]

I'm not sure what would have happened to Dichio if the boards were different.

For me...I don't really care either way. Im not nostalgic about Dichio. It's not that I don't like him or am not happy with what he's done with the club...I just don't feel some kind of love and admiration for him or any other TFC player.

Interesting. Now we're getting somewhere. I wonder how many others see it your way.

I am on the side of the players, not management. They wear the sweater, they represent me.

[Beach_Red]

I'm not sure what would have happened to Dichio if the boards were different.

For me...I don't really care either way. Im not nostalgic about Dichio. It's not that I don't like him or am not happy with what he's done with the club...I just don't feel some kind of love and admiration for him or any other TFC player.


But isn't keeping a player like Dichio - no, specifically Dichio - what all this talk of developing a team culture about? You get one guy who actually has some heart and wants to stay with the organization long-term and we don't care if he does or not?

How will a series of coaches and managers on three-year contracts build up any kind of consistent identity for this team?

Or will the team just always have the MLSE corporate identity? Which is, of course, what they wanted when the whole Dichio "retirement" went down and why it was an issue here.

[ManUtd4ever]

It's natural to be loyal to the badge, first and foremost. Managers and players will always come and go.

[v00d00daddy]

Interesting. Now we're getting somewhere. I wonder how many others see it your way.

I am on the side of the players, not management. They wear the sweater, they represent me.

It's not about taking sides with either group for me.

I'm on the side of watching good soccer. I thought Dichio was a good player and never really took issue with anything he did.

At the same time, I find the whole wall of honour and the whole "legend" title a little premature. It's too early in the franchise for any of that kind of talk for me.

Everything after the product on the field is a distant second in my eyes.

[OurGame]

For anyone who thinks that tfc/mlse is not the problem they are imo idiots..

this club can bring in sir alex / pep / wenger anyone .. it doesn't matter it;s the shitty corp that is the mess.. have u ever seen PB or salami parade around the grounds.. i mean who does that .. FO can fo and go get advertisements not strut around BMO like they own it..

I am entitled to my opinion and I hope the team loses forever to spite those FO types

[Oldtimer]

Are we going to give him another year too many like we did to Mo and face a 7th year as the laughing stock of MLS? Is everyone here just going to absolve themselves of their responsibility and their share of blame? Because by being so willing to give the team all the slack with no accountability you can be damned sure some of the blame will fall on your shoulders.

Roogsy, you don't seem to understand: if we don't give him a year, we practically guarantee we'll miss the playoffs next year. So I fail to see how that is blameworthy. There isn't a "fire Winter now and win the cup next year" option. Another coach means another rebuild.

If Winter doesn't work out, Klinsmann failed, and by extension ML$E, and the people in US Soccer who recommended Klinsmann to Anselmi. The supporters are blameless in that situation.

[ensco]

It's not about taking sides with either group for me.

I'm on the side of watching good soccer. I thought Dichio was a good player and never really took issue with anything he did.

At the same time, I find the whole wall of honour and the whole "legend" title a little premature. It's too early in the franchise for any of that kind of talk for me.

Everything after the product on the field is a distant second in my eyes.

Just to be clear, I thought the wall of honour was ridiculous, and said so early on. But that's not what I'm talking about.

I am talking about my/your relationship to the team. I find what you are saying to be depressing. No malice intended.

[Roogsy]

I always have and continue to feel that the concept of "badge" loyalty to be platitudes without any practical application. And I think it gets exploited by the team.

[Roogsy]

Roogsy, you don't seem to understand: if we don't give him a year, we practically guarantee we'll miss the playoffs next year. So I fail to see how that is blameworthy. There isn't a "fire Winter now and win the cup next year" option. Another coach means another rebuild.

And most of us are saying "fine give him the year" but don't do it while giving him a vote of confidence before he's earned it. And that is exactly what he is getting. Its irresponsible.


If Winter doesn't work out, Klinsmann failed, and by extension ML$E, and the people in US Soccer who recommended Klinsmann to Anselmi. The supporters are blameless in that situation.

Nope, supporters do share the blame if they readily accepted the plan before it showed fruitage and allowed MLSE to sit on their laurels, patting themselves on the back without fear of consequences if this doesn't work this time. And that is exactly is happening at the moment.

[jloome]

And most of us are saying "fine give him the year" but don't do it while giving him a vote of confidence before he's earned it. And that is exactly what he is getting. Its irresponsible.

Except that's not what you're saying. You're attacking everything he does, in just about every post. How is that "giving him a year?"

You accuse anyone who says wait a year of "giving him a vote of confidence," when all they're saying is wait a year.

You say you're willing to wait a year, then you continually attack him and give him votes of non-confidence.

It's totally hypocritical.

[Roogsy]

No, it would be hypocritical if I was calling for his ouster now, which in many posts I have been clear I do not want, right now. Pointing out his errors and failings is necessary to build the ultimate review of the man when the time comes. Especially in the light of so much building up by his fanclub of things that actually have little value in assessing his skills. Its almost a red herring. Ie. The Academy

And I am not accusing those that want to give him a year as being the ones giving him the "vote of confidence". I am accusing those that refuse to see the mounting evidence against him and create excuses at every turn and every mistake as giving him the vote of confidence. (Not to mention that last approval poll.) My posts have been very clear in this regard so don't micharacterize my position.

And for me, a vote of confidence is earned. A vote of non-confidence is where we should all be starting considering this team's track record.

[gomesv]

Ouch. He's not North American though. Can't be entitled.

As for your question Voodoo, that's a loaded question. Is your definition of "good" sneaking into 10th spot? If so, I won't be agreeing to any definition of success. But should Winter completely surprise me and post a winning record that confidently gets us into the playoffs, then I am perfectly willing to admit my error and shoot, I will buy a bunch of people beers.

But what if the opposite happens? What if we continue to be a middling team? And what if heaven forbid we miss the playoffs next year??? Are we just going to shrug our shoulders as we seem to be doing this year? Are we going to give him another year too many like we did to Mo and face a 7th year as the laughing stock of MLS? Is everyone here just going to absolve themselves of their responsibility and their share of blame? Because by being so willing to give the team all the slack with no accountability you can be damned sure some of the blame will fall on your shoulders.


Roogsy,
I've read alot of your posts and I'm not sure if you would have to "admit" an error on your part
Unless I'm wrong you have been questioning the blind faith of the supporters towards Winter, and I believe your right to do this. I've never felt once that you don't want what's best for the team.....and if that means Winter's success, you would be totally on board.

Is my take wrong?

[Beach_Red]

It's not about taking sides with either group for me.

I'm on the side of watching good soccer. I thought Dichio was a good player and never really took issue with anything he did.

At the same time, I find the whole wall of honour and the whole "legend" title a little premature. It's too early in the franchise for any of that kind of talk for me.

Everything after the product on the field is a distant second in my eyes.

It's not about the Wall and the "legend" title, it's about the heart of the team. I know I grew up in the wrong city with the wrong team, but I watched as guys like Jean Beliveau went from the ice to the offices and brought the attitude of the team with them.

Of course, it can't work in this corporate world, but does it have to go as far as TFC have taken it with consulting companies and imported culture as a marketing ploy?

It really does seem like this team will never build from within and will never have any heart, it'll always just be a bunch of corporate suits and accounting reports. For a moment there it did seem like TFC was so small and removed from the big money that it didn't have to be like that.

[Roogsy]

Roogsy,
I've read alot of your posts and I'm not sure if you would have to "admit" an error on your part
Unless I'm wrong you have been questioning the blind faith of the supporters towards Winter, and I believe your right to do this. I've never felt once that you don't want what's best for the team.....and if that means Winter's success, you would be totally on board.

Is my take wrong?

I want to celebrate an MLS Cup. That's my dream. Shoot, at this point I will take a win on one of the many away games I have been on where my league record is something like no wins, 3 draws and probably 7 or 8 losses.

I'd like to watch a game where we dominate (when was the last time that happened?) Or feeling what it's like to win 2 games in a row.

Winter...give me something. Anything.

[Blowing Bubbles]

I have had a lot of conversations with players that are with the club at the moment and many that are no longer here. I can honestly say that there is quite a difference between the European trained players and the North Amaerican based players. From they way they interact with fans to the basic knowledge of tatics and formations.

I can completely understand Winter's lack of patiences with the NA players. The majority of them have no clue what it takes to be a professional and how tatics are effective. A lot of them are athletes that weren't good enough for other sports and this is there fall back. They don't have a soccer IQ when talking tatics and a lot of them aren't willing to put in the time after practice to make themselves better players.



explain RSL then. Their lineup is full of CHEAP and apparently DUMB Americans.

This is a bullshit excuse of the highest order. How many Americans are left on this team anyway?

And fuck "European trained". If you were to compare the relative value of players based on their salaries in MLS it would clearly be

South Americans >>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Americans >>>>> Europeans

[Roogsy]

It's not about the Wall and the "legend" title, it's about the heart of the team. I know I grew up in the wrong city with the wrong team, but I watched as guys like Jean Beliveau went from the ice to the offices and brought the attitude of the team with them.

Of course, it can't work in this corporate world, but does it have to go as far as TFC have taken it with consulting companies and imported culture as a marketing ploy?

It really does seem like this team will never build from within and will never have any heart, it'll always just be a bunch of corporate suits and accounting reports. For a moment there it did seem like TFC was so small and removed from the big money that it didn't have to be like that.


I know what you mean. Its like we are a victim of our own success. The team became more than a side-project and HQ all of a sudden started meddling. Tom A has only made things worse the more he has become involved. He's TFC's version of Peddie.

[Blowing Bubbles]

Just because you are unprofessional doesn't mean that you need to get a new job. We just took on 2 players that the Columbus FO were having a great deal of trouble with. some could say the are/were unprofessional. Now they have a clean slate. Should we not have signed them?



of course we should've traded for them. They're not American. Therefore they're professional.

[Roogsy]

explain RSL then. Their lineup is full of CHEAP and apparently DUMB Americans.

This is a bullshit excuse of the highest order. How many Americans are left on this team anyway?

And fuck "European trained". If you were to compare the relative value of players based on their salaries in MLS it would clearly be

South Americans >>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Americans >>>>> Europeans

Totally agree. Of all the players that bring the worst bang for the buck (an important feature in a cap environment) the Europeans rank the worst. And yet I get the feeling Winter wants to fill the team with them.

[ag futbol]

Management has to be prepared to deal with the "entitlement" of North American players. Like it or not they are a necessary ingredient to succeed around here.

Jumping up and down about how these guys are are lazy, not dedicated, etc... fruitless exercise.

[Blowing Bubbles]

How many "European trained" players in MLS making 100k-200k represent great value on their contracts?

Cause I can name dozens of South and Central Americans that do. And I can name a bunch of Americans that do, starting with Brek MF Shea

[backbeat]

Totally agree. Of all the players that bring the worst bang for the buck (an important feature in a cap environment) the Europeans rank the worst. And yet I get the feeling Winter wants to fill the team with them.

you 'have a feeling'?? oh that's logical...

Winter has consistently talked about building the academy to produce Canadian talent

ya right, that makes sense

[Roogsy]

Yeah? How many Canadian players from the academy do you figure he has signed to the starting roster this year or who might be a regular starter next year?

I don't want to hear about what he "may" do in 5 years. If we're waiting for Canadian talent to fill out our roster we will be waiting a long long time, if ever.

[Yohan]

How many "European trained" players in MLS making 100k-200k represent great value on their contracts?

Cause I can name dozens of South and Central Americans that do. And I can name a bunch of Americans that do, starting with Brek MF Shea
a little unbalanced comparison because there is whackload more latin american players to sample from than european players. like at least 3-4 to 1 ratio

[Beach_Red]

Yeah? How many Canadian players from the academy do you figure he has signed to the starting roster this year or who might be a regular starter next year?

I don't want to hear about what he "may" do in 5 years. If we're waiting for Canadian talent to fill out our roster we will be waiting a long long time, if ever.

Even in five years, how many academy players do they expect to be at that perfect talent level of not good enough to go to a better league but good enough to make an impact in this one? Will there ever be more than one or two academy players on the starting roster?

[DangerRed]

Honest question.

For those of you (you, Exiled, Danger, Roogsy etc.) who see "reality" and have figured out the "truth":

If...(and that is a big if).....TFC improves and finds success.....what will you all say about your truth and reality?

I know exiled has already hedged his bets and gone on record and said that if they improve it will have nothing to do with what Winter has done so far.

But I'm curious to know what you guys will say if TFC gets good.

If TFC gets good, I will do my best to ascertain who is responsible and to give them credit as appropriate. That's what any supporter should do, plain and simple.

But until that day comes, just as you would ascribe honour and credit for success, you need to -- again, as a supporter, not as a fucking cheerleader -- apportion blame to those who deserve it.

As I've seen it, TFC's is a very multilayered blend of shit, from the FO and the management (past, but present could also be cast in this category) to many of the players (Gargan, Borman, Harden, multitude of others).

But I want to make one more point before I set off for Belize's Community Baboon Reserve tomorrow ( :D ). And it is this:


It's natural to be loyal to the badge, first and foremost. Managers and players will always come and go.

Yes, they will. That's why it's on you as a supporter to be as much of a critic as you are a flag-waver. It does NOT help the badge if you cheerlead for the manager/players just because they happen to be in power/the starting lineup right now.

You (hopefully) think critically about everything else in your life. Your club should be no different.

[Roogsy]

Will he even be here in 5 years? (Which by the way is the shortest of timeframes for the effects of the Academy to take hold.)

If he stinks he's gone. If he's good, he's gone. He knows this and I am fairly sure we'll never see him "change his mind" on Canadian players.

[Roogsy]

If TFC gets good, I will do my best to ascertain who is responsible and to give them credit as appropriate. That's what any supporter should do, plain and simple.

But until that day comes, just as you would ascribe honour and credit for success, you need to -- again, as a supporter, not as a fucking cheerleader -- apportion blame to those who deserve it.

As I've seen it, TFC's is a very multilayered blend of shit, from the FO and the management (past, but present could also be cast in this category) to many of the players (Gargan, Borman, Harden, multitude of others).

But I want to make one more point before I set off for Belize's Community Baboon Reserve tomorrow ( :D ). And it is this:



Yes, they will. That's why it's on you as a supporter to be as much of a critic as you are a flag-waver. It does NOT help the badge if you cheerlead for the manager/players just because they happen to be in power/the starting lineup right now.

You (hopefully) think critically about everything else in your life. Your club should be no different.

Bang fucking on. I can't add to this so I'm done for the night. For the record, I am hoping TFC win tomorrow and I will be watching and cheering.

[v00d00daddy]

If TFC gets good, I will do my best to ascertain who is responsible and to give them credit as appropriate. That's what any supporter should do, plain and simple.

But until that day comes, just as you would ascribe honour and credit for success, you need to -- again, as a supporter, not as a fucking cheerleader -- apportion blame to those who deserve it.

As I've seen it, TFC's is a very multilayered blend of shit, from the FO and the management (past, but present could also be cast in this category) to many of the players (Gargan, Borman, Harden, multitude of others).

But I want to make one more point before I set off for Belize's Community Baboon Reserve tomorrow ( :D ). And it is this:



Yes, they will. That's why it's on you as a supporter to be as much of a critic as you are a flag-waver. It does NOT help the badge if you cheerlead for the manager/players just because they happen to be in power/the starting lineup right now.

You (hopefully) think critically about everything else in your life. Your club should be no different.

Oh how I wish the old board was still around. Hell, I'm sure there is stuff from the early days of this board...back when I was complaining about accountability and how shit we were...and what we, as supporters could do.

After 2-3 years I was sick of the utter garbage I was being fed and I spoke up about and got chastised.

Now...after less than a year of a completely new approach (one that I believe in) I'm being accused of being a cheerleader because I havent seen enough to write off the coach. It's hilarious.

So...on that note I'm back to limiting any discussion about TFC to the game day threads and the play on the field.

All of this other shit is tiresome and completely pointless.

[tiberius]

Generalizations are a funny beast Vox. Would it be fair to say that this board is pro-Winter? Not all generalizations are fair are but some are pretty safe.


Ya know - I have had it.

What a bunch effing bull!!!:picard: This so much a bunch of effing crap!:hump:

Just stop the unmittigating crap, negatism and mis-characterization - day-in, day-out stupid, ineffective, troll-like stinking pile 'o crap.:hump:

Almost anyone who reads these boards would agree that the majority of folk are in the camp of:

1. A Coaching change is not a great option right now (Roogsie YOU HAVE AGREED OVER AND OVER AND OVER on this one.)

2. Most don't know if Winter is going to work out or not, but wait and see is better than a coaching change right now, so most will be patient and see what unfolds in the next 6-9 months. This is so NOT pro-Winter - this is WAIT AND SEE WINTER- this is obvious to (almost) everyone. This is 4 years of MO plus a year of Priki = give Winter a year or so... YOU tell us what fucking option you have to offer us, once you say we have to ride out the season with the current coaching/management... You have provided this board no options other that continued negativity over and over and over and over and over again...

Just let the coaching staff try to do their fucking job, and we will evaluate later - not minute by minute criticism every fucking day! It appears that you are such a goddamn micro-manager - nobody would want to work for you for more that two days, that is for sure. For someone who criticizes the coaching team every fuckin day - you clearly couldn't coach your way way out of a fucking paper bag, let alone keep a locker room together, so st**

3. Actually, I think "this board" "in general", is tired of bashing the coaching/management team - In other words - just stop, Enough. It is so easy to be negative. Stop. Grow up. Any of us who have coached know what a hell of a job it is. Most of us are beyond "bash the coach" right now. Almost everyone (except exile and a few others) is fatigued by the coaching negativity spew that happens on a daily basis. Please come back next year on the examination of coaching. See Yah! You have been told a thousand times already.

4. In the mean time, if you really feel you must rip someone, rip the players - they are the ones actually being paid, mostly quite well, to score the goals and keep the god damn ball out of Frei's net. Winter is not making kindergarten mistakes on the field, nor could you possibly say that Winter was guilty of it when he himself was on the field. I would also note that Winter has not force retired Brennan or Dichio, nor has he traded away Robinson, Wynne, Gueverra, Casey or Cronin for a bag of hammers. Nor under his watch has he aquired/played Robert, Samuel, Lombardo,Gala, Gerba, Garcia or MISTA. Get a grip and shut up for now.

It was Yourass’s lack of touch that led to Brek Shea’s wonder strike in the last game - yah really want to park that at Winter's feet??? Really??? All his fuckin fault? Are you sure? Everyone saw Youass fuck up - these things happen... blame Winter? Your bias just stinks to high heaven. I am so far beyond being tired of it...

Am I the only one who feels this way????

[tiberius]

Do you think that was necessary for the cadets to get what 'left and right' are? Of course not, he was disciplining us through denigration.

I disagree Exile - it is obvious to us that it was neccessary for you to get this training - the fact that the Sargent has to say "Exile - the other right" means you needed this training... Just like when we look at the lack of passing finesse or touch that some of these jokers (TFC players) have, or have had.

They obviously need practice on "left" "right" "left" "right" "damn it exile - the other right" What planet are you from??? Can you honestly say that basic passing and first touch is a not a major problem with many TFC players????? If you cannot accept a pass, and then put that ball where you want it, then you are clearly not ready to grasp a "system" other than kick and chase.... Gordon may not have been in this camp, but there certainly are some other obvious candidates....

Do you go to any games? At least watch the teli? Do we watch the same games??? Man, are you seriously telling us that you do not see the lack of basic skill sets that some of our players have been bringing to the field...

[kaos197O]

Am I the only one who feels this way????

I don't.

Being passionate about something often comes out in different forms, from different people, at different times in their life. We all have our OWN relationship with this club and it it must be one that is mutually satisfying. Oftentimes we have to justify to ourselves why we are still in the relationship. We analyze whether or not it is fulfilling OUR needs. One can have that discussion in person, with other people, or in this case on an internet forum. I think people oftentimes generalize that a certain poster is either negative or positive based on their posts and perhaps even their reputation. However, if you try to take away any personal feelings and read these posts with an open mind, not pre judged, then I think you'll find that there are extremely valid points from both sides.

As for the one statement you made above about the board not being PRO WINTER, the last poll results would indicate that your position that most people on the board are WAIT AND SEE people, is slightly off. All indicators point to the majority of people actually being PRO WINTER. I'm one of the wait and see folks. I don't like so much of what I've seen so far.....I hope it soon changes.

[Chevy]

Except that's not what you're saying. You're attacking everything he does, in just about every post. How is that "giving him a year?"

You accuse anyone who says wait a year of "giving him a vote of confidence," when all they're saying is wait a year.

You say you're willing to wait a year, then you continually attack him and give him votes of non-confidence.

It's totally hypocritical.


JL, the ignore button will set you free. The dude still has his knickers in a knot over Winter et al dropping DeRo like a sack of dirt. All this posturing, arguing and constant negativity is tied back to DP wannabe, and it's not going to go away.....ever.

[tiberius]

I don't.

..

As for the one statement you made above about the board not being PRO WINTER, the last poll results would indicate that your position that most people on the board are WAIT AND SEE people, is slightly off. All indicators point to the majority of people actually being PRO WINTER. I'm one of the wait and see folks. I don't like so much of what I've seen so far.....I hope it soon changes.

Understood - I hear what you are saying - but there was no "wait and see until the end of the season" available in the poll options. I based my assessment on following the discussion afterward, particularly those of whom appeared to indicate "Yes". There are some "pro-winter no matter what" folk out there - no doubt, but among those who spoke up in postings, I stand by the statement that most were clearly "wait and see" folk", not "I am infatuated with Winter" folk.

The "Wait and See" folk have been mis-characterized ad-nauseum as being pro-Winter - I am just fed up with it

/end rant

[TFC/Everton]

If Bruce Arena was coaching this team, would we suck this badly?

[Roogsy]

Ya know - I have had it.

What a bunch effing bull!!!:picard: This so much a bunch of effing crap!:hump:

Just stop the unmittigating crap, negatism and mis-characterization - day-in, day-out stupid, ineffective, troll-like stinking pile 'o crap.:hump:

Almost anyone who reads these boards would agree that the majority of folk are in the camp of:

1. A Coaching change is not a great option right now (Roogsie YOU HAVE AGREED OVER AND OVER AND OVER on this one.)

2. Most don't know if Winter is going to work out or not, but wait and see is better than a coaching change right now, so most will be patient and see what unfolds in the next 6-9 months. This is so NOT pro-Winter - this is WAIT AND SEE WINTER- this is obvious to (almost) everyone. This is 4 years of MO plus a year of Priki = give Winter a year or so... YOU tell us what fucking option you have to offer us, once you say we have to ride out the season with the current coaching/management... You have provided this board no options other that continued negativity over and over and over and over and over again...

Just let the coaching staff try to do their fucking job, and we will evaluate later - not minute by minute criticism every fucking day! It appears that you are such a goddamn micro-manager - nobody would want to work for you for more that two days, that is for sure. For someone who criticizes the coaching team every fuckin day - you clearly couldn't coach your way way out of a fucking paper bag, let alone keep a locker room together, so st**

3. Actually, I think "this board" "in general", is tired of bashing the coaching/management team - In other words - just stop, Enough. It is so easy to be negative. Stop. Grow up. Any of us who have coached know what a hell of a job it is. Most of us are beyond "bash the coach" right now. Almost everyone (except exile and a few others) is fatigued by the coaching negativity spew that happens on a daily basis. Please come back next year on the examination of coaching. See Yah! You have been told a thousand times already.

4. In the mean time, if you really feel you must rip someone, rip the players - they are the ones actually being paid, mostly quite well, to score the goals and keep the god damn ball out of Frei's net. Winter is not making kindergarten mistakes on the field, nor could you possibly say that Winter was guilty of it when he himself was on the field. I would also note that Winter has not force retired Brennan or Dichio, nor has he traded away Robinson, Wynne, Gueverra, Casey or Cronin for a bag of hammers. Nor under his watch has he aquired/played Robert, Samuel, Lombardo,Gala, Gerba, Garcia or MISTA. Get a grip and shut up for now.

It was Yourass’s lack of touch that led to Brek Shea’s wonder strike in the last game - yah really want to park that at Winter's feet??? Really??? All his fuckin fault? Are you sure? Everyone saw Youass fuck up - these things happen... blame Winter? Your bias just stinks to high heaven. I am so far beyond being tired of it...

Am I the only one who feels this way????

LOL! "Wait and see"? And yet it's one of the most fervent defenses of Winter I have seen yet (I especially like the blame on the players as a way of deflecting Winter's blame, it's exactly what many of us have been pointing to as being part of the problem and why this supposed "neutrality" over Winter doesn't actually exist to the degree people claim) . Like I said, it's "lip service" to the "wait and see" claims. There is no wait and see. It's "let's excuse Winter's continued incompetence". Wait and see would at least acknowledge the good and the bad, but all I see are good and "let's not judge yet". Apparently Winter can judge a player in weeks but we need months or years to judge Winter himself. Why isn't there "wait and see" for the players? Why is the double-standard so accepted around here with Winter getting all these breaks and understanding but players getting their balls busted after a handful of games? And you're expecting me to believe that in the face of all this Winter-defending, you're patiently waiting? So all the evidence out there is meaningless? What exactly are we waiting for anyways? 7 months and 26 games doesn't give us at least enough to begin formulating an opinion? I certainly think it does. If not...what number is it? 50 games? 100 games? Tell me what the commonly-accepted reasonable amount of time would be so I can adjust my obviously premature judgement of the man.

Until then you will have to pardon me but I will not "shut up".

I help pay for this board. You don't. And yet I have never told you to shut up. Which one of us is the grown up here?

Can't handle it? Nobody is forcing you to be here, or read anyone's posts.

http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video/cutest-argument-ever/1glm9yw1i?cpkey=efac67f5-5f7f-4ab8-9496-9fa4b26f6dcc%7C%7C%7C%7C&src=v5%3Ashare%3Afacebook%3A&from=sharepermalink-facebook&brand=MSN

[tiberius]

LOL! "Wait and see"? And yet it's one of the most fervent defenses of Winter I have seen yet (I especially like the blame on the players as a way of deflecting Winter's blame, it's exactly what many of us have been pointing to as being part of the problem and why this supposed "neutrality" over Winter doesn't actually exist to the degree people claim) . Like I said, it's "lip service" to the "wait and see" claims. There is no wait and see. It's "let's excuse Winter's continued incompetence". Wait and see would at least acknowledge the good and the bad, but all I see are good and "let's not judge yet".

So pardon me but I will not "shut up".

I help pay for this board. You don't. And yet I have never told you to shut up. Which one of us is the grown up here?

Can't handle it? Nobody is forcing you to be here, or read anyone's posts.

http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video/cutest-argument-ever/1glm9yw1i?cpkey=efac67f5-5f7f-4ab8-9496-9fa4b26f6dcc%7C%7C%7C%7C&src=v5%3Ashare%3Afacebook%3A&from=sharepermalink-facebook&brand=MSN
Pretty sad when you have to fall back on the old "I paid $20 for this board" argument...

As I said in the original post - you offer no option - just criticism. With many posts, in many other threads I think you are bang on, but you seem to have one helluva blind spot on the big picture on this one. Either jump on the "dump Winter now bandwagon", or stop the negative spew, or come up with a third option - pretty simple. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too - and everyone can see it.... The emperor has no clothes...

[Roogsy]

It's not sad, it's fact. You have no right to tell me to shut up just because you don't like what I have to say. And the paid membership only makes that more valid.

Blind spot with regards to what? If there was evidence that people are "waiting and seeing" then where is it? Because an approval rating of 70% and the player bashing that goes on here in the face of the results with Winter getting a pass doesn't say that. That doesn't sound balanced at all. If people are pinning our results on the players, then they have indeed made a decision and they can claim "wait and see" all they like, the evidence is already there that judgement has been made. It also proves why people are so willing to write off the first 2/3 of the season because in their eyes, Winter did a good job but the players didn't. Otherwise, the evidnece you would see is people criticizing both player AND coach or neither at all. Unless that has actually happened and I didn't see it (in which case I would indeed be guilty of having a blind spot) then the opposite must be the case.

As for options, there are many. But why would I propose them when so overwhelmingly people will say that it's not necessary? It would be like singing to a deaf person. The logical first step would be to convince people that there is a need first and THEN talk next steps. That hasn't happened...yet. I suspect it will at some point if Winter continues to disappoint, but like the MoJo era, it will be far later than it should as we fool ourselves into false hope and waste yet another year.

And FYI...I do have people that work for me. And they regularly refer friends and family to work for me whether it be as summer interns or assistants. And to date, nobody has quit on me, rather I have referred many into promotions. I give them plenty of flexibility and leeway. And I believe in a relaxed working environment. I've never had a single employee conflict and I've been managing people for years so it actually made me chuckle a little when you questioned my ability to manage people. It's this experience that helps me see what a poor personnel manager Winter actually is.

[denime]

It's not sad, it's fact. You have no right to tell me to shut up just because you don't like what I have to say. And the paid membership only makes that more valid.

Blind spot with regards to what? If there was evidence that people are "waiting and seeing" then where is it? Because an approval rating of 70% and the player bashing that goes on here in the face of the results with Winter getting a pass doesn't say that. That doesn't sound balanced at all. If people are pinning our results on the players, then they have indeed made a decision and they can claim "wait and see" all they like, the evidence is already there that judgement has been made. It also proves why people are so willing to write off the first 2/3 of the season because in their eyes, Winter did a good job but the players didn't. Otherwise, the evidnece you would see is people criticizing both player AND coach. Unless that has actually happened and I didn't see it (in which case I would indeed be guilty of having a blind spot) then the opposite must be the case.


You still did not answer his main question.Give as an option instead of critics.What can we do? Please don't reply with don't buy merch,beer etc.What you think we can do to make a difference,do you really think they give a fuck about this board and our opinions?

I would really like to know what is the BIG thing we should do,if it makes any sense I'll be the first one to join and support you.

And tiberius don't get personal,this is the RPB board afterall.

[tiberius]

It's not sad, it's fact. You have no right to tell me to shut up just because you don't like what I have to say. And the paid membership only makes that more valid.


Perhaps you are right, that I have no right to tell you to be quiet on a subject because you are so negative.... I dunno... Are you saying that if I pay $20 I can freely and without prejudice tell you the shut the fuck up? If so, I would have to say "membership has its privileges!"

That aside, I don't know how else to get your attention...

If your plan is to ride out the season with Winter, like the rest of us, then I think it is fair to say that most don't want to hear from you a play by play, minute by minute, day by day deconstruction and destruction of the coaching staff. I do believe that that this is just too depressing, un helpful, and non-functional for most of us.

I think what you need to do is to come out of the closet - just move your self to the "get rid of Winter now" camp. We can see the wolf inside the sheeps clothing anyway...

[Roogsy]

You still did not answer his main question.Give as an option instead of critics.What can we do? Please don't reply with don't buy merch,beer etc.What you think we can do to make a difference,do you really think they give a fuck about this board and our opinions?

I would really like to know what is the BIG thing we should do,if it makes any sense I'll be the first one to join and support you.

And tiberius don't get personal,this is the RPB board afterall.


It's not one big thing, it's many things that can and should be done.

Putting pressure on the team is not somethign that should blow up when patience finally runs out. It should be something that grows incrementally before it gets to that point. THAT has been the supporters main problem from the very beginning, on every issue that arises between supporters and the FO. We are always in crisis mode. We are always reacting, not being proactive. Putting out fires instead of putting in place deterrents.

The very first thing I think supporters should have done and can still do is to get a concrete and inequivocal promise from Toronto FC that we will make the playoffs next year. Period. No wavering. No qualifications. If we don't make the playoffs, major heads should roll. 2 full seasons in charge should produce at least this much, unless of course we're already preparing excuses as to why we can't make 10th out of 18 teams? We speak about it here about it being a minimum result, but why don't we have a promise from the FO? There is no way to hold them accountable to that unless we get that promise out of them.

If we can't even get this assurance from the team, then what's the point of doing anything else? A clear and unquestionable performance measure is an expected and logical demand of any high performance position. And yet we dance and skirt around this issue like we are going to hurt someone's feelings?

Why don't we have this already?

[tiberius]

...

And tiberius don't get personal,this is the RPB board afterall.

I will try to stick to the issues as best I can, but sometimes the issues seem to be stuck on certain individuals... I will do my best!

[Roogsy]

Perhaps you are right, that I have no right to tell you to be quiet on a subject because you are so negative.... I dunno... Are you saying that if I pay $20 I can freely and without prejudice tell you the shut the fuck up? If so, I would have to say "membership has its privileges!"

That aside, I don't know how else to get your attention...

If your plan is to ride out the season with Winter, like the rest of us, then I think it is fair to say that most don't want to hear from you a play by play, minute by minute, day by day deconstruction and destruction of the coaching staff. I do believe that that this is just too depressing, un helpful, and non-functional for most of us.

I think what you need to do is to come out of the closet - just move your self to the "get rid of Winter now" camp. We can see the wolf inside the sheeps clothing anyway...

I do not hide behind platitudes. If you're asking me directly if I would prefer Winter gone now I would say without hestitation yes. But I know the damage it would cause the organization and I know people need so much evidence that it's coming out of their ears before they stumble on to the right decision, so I am willing to wait until that happens.

But don't sit there and make it sound like I am being vague or politically correct. Those are not things people have ever been able to accuse me of.

To put it clearly for the umpteenth time, I feel we have to ride out the season with Winter because we have to, not because I want us to. But that doesn't mean that I am not firmly in the camp that thinks Winter is the wrong guy for TFC. I am already there.

[Shakes McQueen]

Haha, I'm glad I took a couple of days away from here.

- Scott

[tiberius]

The very first thing I think supporters should have done and can still do is to get a concrete and inequivocal promise from Toronto FC that we will make the playoffs next year. Period. No wavering. No qualifications. If we don't make the playoffs, major heads should roll.... why don't we have a promise from the FO? There is no way to hold them accountable to that unless we get that promise out of them.


^^this^^ 110% -> if things are not looking reasonable by early May of 2012, it should be "off with their heads!" If they can't make the 2012 playoffs then take the whole mariner/declerke/winter team and add them to the nincompoop pile. No excuses. No wavering. I would go so far as to say they go up on the wall of shame beside MO.

[ManUtd4ever]

Haha, I'm glad I took a couple of days away from here.

- Scott

It was actually an interesting thread at one point.

[Roogsy]

^^this^^ 110% -> if things are not looking reasonable by early May of 2012, it should be "off with their heads!" If they can't make the 2012 playoffs then take the whole mariner/declerke/winter team and add them to the nincompoop pile. No excuses. No wavering. I would go so far as to say they go up on the wall of shame beside MO.

But it hasn't happened, and I believe it won't happen. All of us that have been paying attention to this team since 2006 have come to realize that everyone in that organization covers their ass and "hedges their bets".

Shoot...even when they made direct promises, they didn't keep them. But it gave them headaches. So they stopped making promises altogether.

So we won't get any I am sure.

So if TFC does not make the playoffs next year, what do you think would happen? From the limp-wrist approach supporters have taken with the FO, not much I am afraid. And that is what frustrates me and what feeds my posts. We've become that which we fought so hard not to become, cheerleaders with absolutely no power to hold this team accountable. We spent our one bullet last year in the protest but instead of building on that, we decided to waste the effort by going back to the "way things were".

Like Ensco, I can't do that. In my opinion, TFC betrayed their fans. And they have not honestly earned back any sort of loyalty and yet we are giving it to them freely. It actually makes me sad because I was actually proud of the supporters at the end of last year as hard as it was to get people off their asses. We accomplished something and then turned around and let it go to waste.

And in the process, made ourselves impotent.

That's why I am angry. It has nothing to do with DeRo (that's a red herring) and everything to do with the approach we have taken this year towards the team. Strategically, we've lost the advantage.

[Roogsy]

If Bruce Arena was coaching this team, would we suck this badly?


Nope. We'd show much more heart and have squeezed out better results. And to me this is why I think Winter was a poor choice. We needed someone who could take care of this team long term but also generate confidence in the short-term. I am not sure Winter can do the former and he obviously can't do the latter.

[Whoop]

You need wins to get some confidence.

Don't underestimate that.

These guys once they give up a goal just tend to give up.

[tfcocd]

explain RSL then. Their lineup is full of CHEAP and apparently DUMB Americans.



Yes, RSL is a great example of north american players playing with technical ability and tactical awareness. I have to believe that the US national program and leading college programs employ sophisticated training that emphasize both technical skill and tactical knowledge. The best colleges that employ full time coaching staff surely model themselves after succesful training programs and integrate themselves with community clubs to recruit players that fit into there system.

[Roogsy]

You need wins to get some confidence.

Don't underestimate that.

These guys once they give up a goal just tend to give up.

When you've been told repeatedly you're not good enough, how can anyone expect confidence not to suffer?

Great management style. :thumbsup:

And I suspect that is the sort of thing that Gordon was pointing to. In the end, we either accept that this is not a positive management style or we blame the players and accept the style as being ultimately beneficial.

If we each apply it to our own workplace, I wonder how many would react positively to such a style and whether it would motivate us to produce our best work?

Maybe then we can answer the Gordon question.

[Whoop]

Coaching involves a little coddling and a little prodding. You have to know how to use both.

Knowing when to coddle and when to prod comes with experience.

[tiberius]

...To put it clearly for the umpteenth time, I feel we have to ride out the season with Winter because we have to, not because I want us to. But that doesn't mean that I am not firmly in the camp that thinks Winter is the wrong guy for TFC. I am already there.

We are not very far apart on the above.

The issue is: If we want Winter to succeed do we:
a) publicly ride his ass day after day, month after month
or do we:
b) suck it up, set the objectives of much better play + playoffs in 2012 and stop riding his ass, give him room and see what happens?

I just don't see how riding his ass daily does anything positive at this point, and in fact it probably has a negative effect if we actually want him to succeed... There are times to kick ass and take names and there are times to back off and see what happens...

As far as criticizing the players go, I try not to go down that road too often - my point was that it is a little rich if Yourass gives away the ball, and then Frings misses a tackle and Shea makes a spendid strike and then we want to dump it all on Winter. Sure, Winter is part of the accountability mix but... sometimes being a coach just sucks, even when you manage to get someone like Frings to come and play for you...

[tiberius]

But it hasn't happened, and I believe it won't happen. All of us that have been paying attention to this team since 2006 have come to realize that everyone in that organization covers their ass and "hedges their bets".

Shoot...even when they made direct promises, they didn't keep them. But it gave them headaches. So they stopped making promises altogether.

So we won't get any I am sure.

Like Ensco, I can't do that. In my opinion, TFC betrayed their fans. And they have not honestly earned back any sort of loyalty and yet we are giving it to them freely. It actually makes me sad because I was actually proud of the supporters at the end of last year as hard as it was to get people off their asses. We accomplished something and then turned around and let it go to waste.

And in the process, made ourselves impotent.

That's why I am angry. It has nothing to do with DeRo (that's a red herring) and everything to do with the approach we have taken this year towards the team. Strategically, we've lost the advantage.

Sigh... Truer words have not been spoken - especially about the betrayal - we are all in the same damn boat.



So if TFC does not make the playoffs next year, what do you think would happen? From the limp-wrist approach supporters have taken with the FO, not much I am afraid. And that is what frustrates me and what feeds my posts. We've become that which we fought so hard not to become, cheerleaders with absolutely no power to hold this team accountable. We spent our one bullet last year in the protest but instead of building on that, we decided to waste the effort by going back to the "way things were".

I am not sure what would happen with a missed playoffs next year, but I doubt the response will be "limp wristed". I actually think that the team would experience a drought unlike anything MLSE has ever seen or experienced before. They will also reap the whirlwind of fan/supporter anger. It won't be quite "Marlie ville" in the stands because there are probably a group of 8-10,000 fairly hardcore TFC fans to pull from, but I think we will be talking 6-8K a game...

But that is doomsday - Even a blind pig can find a playoff spot in 6 years - can't he? You have to admit things looked a little better last game!

[bman27]

The Problem right now was mentioned a couple of posts back, It truly is impossible to look at this black and white. It feels like we are quick to polarize just for the sake of creating opposing sides. If someone is saying I don't think we should pass judgement on a couple of months, look at the roster situation, the side drama etc... They are labeled "pro- Winter" naive, blind and everything else.

The Same can be said about people on the other side of the Spectrum. labels being thrown out as impatient and typical north american sports fan arn't helping the dicussian either. as for my opinion here are a couple things a think we need to seriously need to consider when looking at the job Winter has done so far.

The Timing and Injuries so far:
I seriously believe that the January start date for the Season puts the whole league at a disadvantage when it comes to player movement. Winter has mentioned the challenges that have come with the 4-3-3 system, particularly the North Americans. The concept seemed to be to try to bring in players who were familiar with this type of system. The problem is what level of players are you expecting to bring in who are out of contract mid way through the European Season? your not going to build quality from scraps and journeymen, Hopefully the signings of guys like Frings and Koov are just the start of signing players for an impact, not just to fill space.

I don't think anyone can deny the obvious impact injuries have played so far , especially in our back line. We all know guys like Gargan and Harden should not be starting games in this league plain and simple. If we had a back four of Eckersley Williams Cann and Yourassowsky or something similar for most of the games so far this season, Would we see the NY or philly game end up the way they were? When was the last time we had what would be considered our best possible line up at that time on the pitch? What about the impact of a completely healthy De Guzman so far this year? Both Santos and Gordon have flirted with injuries all season as well, with them both playing up to the level they both had showed at times and most games, Our goal difference might not be the utter shit it is now..

but all of that is besides the point, these are the cards we have been dealt so far.

One point I want to make however is the attitude that some posters seem to have when it comes to the players and management. I understand completely all of the Frustration that has come with dealing with the mismanagement of team the past four years, on the pitch and off. However I feel many supporters are letting their feeling about the owners cloud their judgement on how well this management is doing. When there is no news about signings its "we are so shit we can't find players who will play for us" or "it is too quiet, typical, we arn't doing anything" just because it doesn't seem like the media knows who's coming to the team before Mariner does, unlike a certain Ginger.......

My biggest pet peeve however is that some posters have seemed to completely absolve the players of any responsibility for their actions on the field. This team definitely has had a "heart" issue this year, missing any spark and aggressiveness, but instead of talking about how our captain many times is the laziest player on the pitch and needs to lead by example, we dissect every little thing about our system and our managers instead, I'm all for accountability, but it needs to be for both sides.

I have a Background as a classical Musician, and lots of my personal experience can relate to the situation we have here. you can have a good Conductor or bad conductor (like a manager) You can practice the same symphony for hours and hours, going through it note by note, but it wont make a world of difference how good your conductor is if the attention isn't spent by the musician. The Relationship is two ways, the Conductor does their job by expressing how they want the piece to be performed, but it is up to the orchestra to perform it, and all it takes is one wrong note by one musician (kind of like yourassowsky on wednesday night) and a piece can be ruined. it is a fine balancing act between both.

anyways end rant/ comments are more then welcome, I know there will definitely be differing opinions then mine, and that just makes for great entertainment :drinking:

[tiberius]

...
One point I want to make however is the attitude that some posters seem to have when it comes to the players and management. I understand completely all of the Frustration that has come with dealing with the mismanagement of team the past four years, on the pitch and off. However I feel many supporters are letting their feeling about the owners cloud their judgement on how well this management is doing.
...
My biggest pet peeve however is that some posters have seemed to completely absolve the players of any responsibility for their actions on the field. This team definitely has had a "heart" issue this year, missing any spark and aggressiveness, but instead of talking about how our captain many times is the laziest player on the pitch and needs to lead by example, we dissect every little thing about our system and our managers instead, I'm all for accountability, but it needs to be for both sides.

Some excellent points - sometimes a great coach like Vince Lombardi can take a bunch of farm boy, ragtag, bad news bears and turn them into winners like the Charlestown Chiefs. However, who made the Edmonton Oilers great? Gretzky, Messier and the boys or was it Glen Sather? Sather probably knew just enough to get the hell out of the way. Talented players, a bit of team chemistry and a so-so coach who stays out of the way can do well.... You don't always need Merlin the Magician as a coach... the players can make it happen too...

[los sonadores]

It's not one big thing, it's many things that can and should be done.

The very first thing I think supporters should have done and can still do is to get a concrete and inequivocal promise from Toronto FC that we will make the playoffs next year. Period. No wavering. No qualifications. If we don't make the playoffs, major heads should roll. 2 full seasons in charge should produce at least this much, unless of course we're already preparing excuses as to why we can't make 10th out of 18 teams? We speak about it here about it being a minimum result, but why don't we have a promise from the FO? There is no way to hold them accountable to that unless we get that promise out of them.



First of all, it's sport, right? So no one knows whose making the playoffs next year, we don't even know what will happen in the game on Saturday. Presumably that is why we watch football - because we don't know what will happen. And frankly blowing up the team again under Tom clueless Ansemi would be a severe form of punishment. So I don't want any promises of the kind, thank you.

[menefreghista]

So if TFC does not make the playoffs next year, what do you think would happen?

My guess is very little.

Either one of two things:

1. Mariner steps in

2. TFC finally poaches one of MLS' big names (Sigi, Arena, etc.)

The worst part of all of this is I can't stop feeling like Anselmi is our Peddie (particularly during the Babcock years).

[Oldtimer]

There is no wait and see. It's "let's excuse Winter's continued incompetence". Wait and see would at least acknowledge the good and the bad, but all I see are good and "let's not judge yet".

I already said what I thought was Winter's weak spots, and why I have some doubts about him (stubbornness related to tactics, if you'll recall). My doubts don't happen to coincide with DeRo being traded, but come from my own coaching experience.

However, what you are doing with trying to judge each and every little thing ignores the big picture, and that's a mistake.

I did the same thing with Kreis. I thought he was crap. He traded away the league MVP for an injured player (Esky, many here said that Mo really took advantage of that "lousy" coach). His team set new records in futility. There was no cohesion and the locker-room was dispirited and not with the coach. All this for a coach with no experience whatsoever with coaching. I ridiculed him endlessly on this very board the first two seasons.

I was wrong, and I learned from that experience.

What I missed was that Kreis was putting into place a culture in his club. It took time. Coincidentally, that is what was always missing here in Toronto. We always had a mish-mash of players, many of them with bad attitudes, who didn't stick together and didn't meld. There were divides in the dressing room between the players, who ended up in certain camps. You know that this is true.

Now, what I see that's positive about Winter is that he is actually building a culture here at TFC. That's the big picture. Look beyond the individual trades (Kreis made some boners along the way). Look beyond the individual games and the short-term record. If you stop looking at individual trees and look at the forest, the squad is going in the right direction. Not only do we have some very talented people (and Frings is the general that we never had, Koevs looks like he'll be great once fit, and for once the DP slots are being properly used), but it looks like we are starting to get some cohesion for once.

Preki tried to do this, but he never had the support of the higher-ups (he tried to get rid of DeRo too, BTW). It looks like Winter has just been given permission to do what he wants, and I like what I see in squad building. So...

negatives
tactical stubbornness
poor communication
old-school hard-nosed treatment of players (can turn them off)

positives
old-school hard-nosed treatment of players (doesn't coddle them)
building squad cohesion
a good DP strategy

So what do i see here? That there are both positive and negative elements (note that I am not including short-term results here).

Almost every coach in the MLS has shortcomings, just like almost every player. If they were perfect in every way, they wouldn't be here. The trick is to have someone whose positives outweigh their negatives. I don't believe that we should make the same mistake that I made with Kreis and focus on individual moves. We'll only know if his positives outweigh his negatives by the middle to the end of next year, by next year's record. At that time, those of us who are giving things some time will either say "yay" or "nay."

[ensco]

The way your excuses shaft our players by default makes me puke.



This board has come to be dominated by people who refelxively side with management over the players. Even simple facts get twisted out of recognition in support of management (ie Winter's slagging of Nana - note to anyone who wants to rehash that - don't bother.)

It did not used to be this way. It's sad.

[v00d00daddy]

The events stated as inarguable actually happened, thats a lot of excuses you got there.

The way your excuses shaft our players by default makes me puke.

'nuff

What a joke. You and your fucking biased "facts" are hilarious.

What "actually happened" and your spin/viewpoint on what happened are two completely different things. Can't you see that?

I shaft the players just like I shaft the coaching staff, and just like I shaft the FO. When I'm pissed at them I say it. If you sat next to me at BMO you'd know how I feel about the players and coaches.

Your arrogance and inability to acknowledge that people can see things differently than you is down right staggering.

You...ensco and Roogsy all have this fucking superiorty complex and it's a fucking joke.

You three alone have made several threads surrounding this team completely toxic and have turned me off the boards so many times.

The day has finally come to ignore all three of you because the alternative is to avoid this board all together. And I would miss it too much because there a lot of people here that I enjoy reading. Both negative and positive surrounding the team. I don't agree with everyone here but I respect their opinions because all they're doing is sharing them....not pontificating OPINION and eloquently/arrogantly sellling them as FACTS/TRUTH/REALITY

Enjoy the game tonight and I look forward to not having to read anything you have to say from this day forward.

[tiberius]

This board has come to be dominated by people who refelxively side with management over the players. Even simple facts get twisted out of recognition in support of management (ie Winter's slagging of Nana - note to anyone who wants to rehash that - don't bother.)

It did not used to be this way. It's sad.

You may be correct regarding the "pro-management" slant - I have not followed every thread, but I don't feel that vibe. Unless you are equating "on the fence about Winter" as reflex support of management...? I certainly think the majority are "reflexivly angry, sad, frustrated and totally fed up" If that is true, it is kinda hard for those same folk to come down on the side of management... As Roogsey pointed out a couple posts ago -It appears that the circumstances since 2006 have led us to the point today of us being powerless to do much of anything right now. We don't want to harp too much on the players, its a little early to make a judgement and axe the coaching team and we have posted ourselves to death about our general dislike for the FO. I am totally stumped as to what action to take in the short term to make it better...

[canadian_bhoy]

Getting rid of Gordon was a good thing. Yes, he scored goals, but he was too injury prone.

Look at who we've brought in this week. Look at the class of Frings compared to what we're used to seeing at BMO. Kovermans is a giant beast, he will tear MLS up.

And best of all, these guys are actual pros who don't need to be spoon fed instructions by their manager.

When I hear MLS players complain about running around and passing around too much in practice, I understand why our MLS players are so static and don't make off the ball runs.

Remember the all star game?
MLS = stand still, get ball, run, shoot/pass.
West Ham = constantly running to create space and open up opportunities to get the ball.

At the end of the day,
1) MLS players are pretty crap, so I don't really take their tactical criticisms very seriously.
2) TFC have made some serious additions to the club and we are in a much better position moving forward. If you can't get behind the team now, when can you?

We should have a special day on this board where no one is allowed to complain about anything. Total posts for the day would = 3

[Parkdale]

The day has finally come to ignore all three of you....


and that is why we have an ignore feature :D

I have a felling many people only see half of the posts in these threads.

[Beach_Red]

What I missed was that Kreis was putting into place a culture in his club. It took time. Coincidentally, that is what was always missing here in Toronto. We always had a mish-mash of players, many of them with bad attitudes, who didn't stick together and didn't meld. There were divides in the dressing room between the players, who ended up in certain camps. You know that this is true.

Now, what I see that's positive about Winter is that he is actually building a culture here at TFC. That's the big picture.


You may he right, but there are some big differences. Kreiss had a lot of experience with MLS and RSL, so did Lagerway and Checketts picked them personally. They're building a culture, yes, but it's RSL culture.

What we have here is a corporate-bought, pre-fab, foreign culture being imposed by mercenaries. It may work, we live in a corporate world, but it's only superficially what RSL is doing.

Until TFC have someone at the very top who actually runs the team - without input from the league or consultants or anyone else, the middle- management will always be on shaky ground.

[ManUtd4ever]

This board has come to be dominated by people who refelxively side with management over the players. Even simple facts get twisted out of recognition in support of management (ie Winter's slagging of Nana - note to anyone who wants to rehash that - don't bother.)

It did not used to be this way. It's sad.

What I find particularly sad is the incessant need to assign blame or choose sides in the first place, thus creating an adversarial tone to a thread that had contained objective and thoughtful analysis.

The one constant in this industry is player turnover. Circumstances frequently lead to personnel changes that don't necessarily villify management or players. In the majority of cases, it's simply a matter of things not working out, and both parties move on. I recognize that roster turnover has been dramatic throughout the existence of this franchise, but this year, it was necessary in light of the roster that Winter and Mariner inherited. In the process, a high profile player has made derogatory comments that were primarily directed at the previous regime, and one player made a comment off the record indicating that certain players were having diffculties grasping Winter's tactical approach in training, which was hardly a revelation.

As for Winter's comments regarding character, he made that statement after the multi player trade with San Jose and the acquisition of Dunfield. The comment could have been directed at any one of Nana, Gordon, Peterson, or the group of departed players in general for that matter. If you think it was unprofessional on his part, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't patronize the rest of us with condescending comments.

Quite frankly, (if we're being forced to choose sides) the majority of people on this forum were understandably critical of the team's lacklustre performance and lack of leadership on several occasions this season, and Winter's reference to the character of the club was justified.

[algieb]

remember winter was a youth coach at ajax producing players to go to next level,this maybe as far as he can go coaching wise,managing a first team is more than coaching , geting the best out off players (mediocre) motivating players playing to there ego,taking points with different tactics, afew off these he is verry lacking ,only time will tell next season is atrue test for his team hopefully we come out all guns firing

[ForeverTFC]

This reminds of a finance course I had in my fourth year of university.

I enjoyed it thoroughly, learned a great deal (more than in all other classes, save a few), got a great mark (96) and was involved. Fair to say, I thought the Prof was wonderful.

To my surprise, many of my classmates did not share my feelings. They said that he goes too fast, does not explain things enough, does not know how to teach, and leaves them confused.

So my prof addressed this one day after several complaints. In his words: "this is a fourth year class. I am not here to hammer down points in your head, I am here to facilitate learning. What I am teaching, you should have known the basics of before stepping in this class. I simply do no have the time, or the resources to teach you 4 years of course material."

Moral of the story? Winter is a coach in a professional league. These players are supposed to be professionals, some of them over 25 years old. These are men that should have already known the basics. So while you may hear the majority up in arms about his coaching style, understand that it may be much more indicative of them.

[Beach_Red]

^ this is why coaches don't get tenure ;).

[FreekAce]

This reminds of a finance course I had in my fourth year of university.

I enjoyed it thoroughly, learned a great deal (more than in all other classes, save a few), got a great mark (96) and was involved. Fair to say, I thought the Prof was wonderful.

To my surprise, many of my classmates did not share my feelings. They said that he goes too fast, does not explain things enough, does not know how to teach, and leaves them confused.

So my prof addressed this one day after several complaints. In his words: "this is a fourth year class. I am not hear to hammer down points in your head, I am hear to facilitate learning. What I am teaching, you should have known the basics of before stepping in this class. I simply do no have the time, or the resources to teach you 4 years of course material."

Moral of the story? Winter is a coach in a professional league. These players are supposed to be professionals, some of them over 25 years old. These are men that should have already known the basics. So while you may hear the majority up in arms about his coaching style, understand that it may be much more indicative of them.

good post. bang on.

[ensco]

As for Winter's comments regarding character, he made that statement after the multi player trade with San Jose and the acquisition of Dunfield. The comment could have been directed at any one of Nana, Gordon, Peterson, or the group of departed players in general for that matter. If you think it was unprofessional on his part, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't patronize the rest of us with condescending comments.



You are generally more thoughtful than this. If you find it condescending (I don't know why you would, I don't recall ever directing a comment at you), feel free to ignore me, it's a growth industry.

I don't care how many times anyone tries to say otherwise, the only reasonable conclusion is that Winter was talking about Nana, not the team. The interpretation that he may have been talking about something else is not credible. Winter did it. What you might conclude about that is a different matter, that's opinion. Some things are opinions, some aren't.

[tiberius]

... maybe the romans used to gather round in bars and argue over which chariot racing team owner should be resting what horses and which charioteer should be sent to the lions and replaced by a carthaginian.

You are right - they did - I was there! I remember when Scorpus traded his best black chariot horse to Diocles - what an uproar!

[spark]

This reminds of a finance course I had in my fourth year of university.

I enjoyed it thoroughly, learned a great deal (more than in all other classes, save a few), got a great mark (96) and was involved. Fair to say, I thought the Prof was wonderful.

To my surprise, many of my classmates did not share my feelings. They said that he goes too fast, does not explain things enough, does not know how to teach, and leaves them confused.

So my prof addressed this one day after several complaints. In his words: "this is a fourth year class. I am not here to hammer down points in your head, I am here to facilitate learning. What I am teaching, you should have known the basics of before stepping in this class. I simply do no have the time, or the resources to teach you 4 years of course material."

Moral of the story? Winter is a coach in a professional league. These players are supposed to be professionals, some of them over 25 years old. These are men that should have already known the basics. So while you may hear the majority up in arms about his coaching style, understand that it may be much more indicative of them.

Curious if said prof got a high paying tenure in a country that has a much poorer education infrastructure, where the students didn't have the benefit of what we do in N.America, he would just go on assuming the same thing or would adjust his curriculum to at least ensure his students are grasping something of what he is teaching them.

[Pookie]

Maybe we are making progress despite our differences of opinion.

At least no one here is advocating trading Iro, Griffit, Borman, our 1st Round Pick and one of our DP designations to DC for you know who.

[v00d00daddy]

Curious if said prof got a high paying tenure in a country that has a much poorer education infrastructure, where the students didn't have the benefit of what we do in N.America, he would just go on assuming the same thing or would adjust his curriculum to at least ensure his students are grasping something of what he is teaching them.

Well...if he had the option of punting out the students who couldn't get it (or who didn't want to try)...I'm sure he would.

Those students that he saw the potential in he may assign the T.A. to tutor them through the rough patches.

Then he might call up the local high school business teachers and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd year profs and hand over the curriculm that would make any future students a success in his class.

:wink5:

[spark]

I did the same thing with Kreis. I thought he was crap. He traded away the league MVP for an injured player (Esky, many here said that Mo really took advantage of that "lousy" coach). His team set new records in futility. There was no cohesion and the locker-room was dispirited and not with the coach. All this for a coach with no experience whatsoever with coaching. I ridiculed him endlessly on this very board the first two seasons.

I was wrong, and I learned from that experience.

What I missed was that Kreis was putting into place a culture in his club. It took time. Coincidentally, that is what was always missing here in Toronto. We always had a mish-mash of players, many of them with bad attitudes, who didn't stick together and didn't meld. There were divides in the dressing room between the players, who ended up in certain camps. You know that this is true.

Cunningham was never league MVP. Under Kries RSL never set new levels of futility. When he took over they had yet to win a game, after his last trades in August they finished the year 4-4-3. I agree the culture may have taken time but he didn't do it despite results. Through the offseason he gets Olave and Borchers and the next year they are in the playoffs. The foundation of his team was set within 3 months and most of those players are still there today. Aside from Esko I can't see one 'boner' trade - or one that was a complete misfire at the expense of the club's success.

[Pookie]

Curious if said prof got a high paying tenure in a country that has a much poorer education infrastructure, where the students didn't have the benefit of what we do in N.America, he would just go on assuming the same thing or would adjust his curriculum to at least ensure his students are grasping something of what he is teaching them.

Sort of what Gordon was saying though wasn't it? That this team (in a developmental league) was spending time on improving their technical skills.

(the following isn't necessarily directed at your comment)

Apparently, that is a source for concern for some people as in watching the team it must have been clear that we never make errors in passing, shooting, crossing, etc. We shouldn't focus on these at all. We should be 100% focused on tactics.

It's ok for David Beckham to run a "Crossing Clinic" for MLS players but apparently it isn't ok for a coach to want to improve the collective skill set of his team... which is in a developmental league in case someone missed that concept.

?

[tiberius]

Maybe we are making progress despite our differences of opinion.

At least no one here is advocating trading Iro, Griffit, Borman, our 1st Round Pick and one of our DP designations to DC for you know who.

Is Winter going after Charlie Davies? :):):)

[Beach_Red]

Apparently, that is a source for concern for some people as in watching the team it must have been clear that we never make errors in passing, shooting, crossing, etc. We shouldn't focus on these at all. We should be 100% focused on tactics.

It's ok for David Beckham to run a "Crossing Clinic" for MLS players but apparently it isn't ok for a coach to want to improve the collective skill set of his team... which is in a developmental league in case someone missed that concept.

?

Development league or not, they still need to win games. What seemed to be missing from TFC so far this year is any sense that they are concerned with winning any games in the near future. For a last place team they sound very arrogant about how they're going to "build" this team into something. They never seem to know the team they are playing against and which approach would be best against that team.

And this isn't school, it's business. In the example above replace professor with CEO and have him tell the employees (of the company which is in last place in their industry) that he just doesn't have the time or the resources to help them do better and they should know it all by now. Would you buy stock on that company? Or in its competition that already has a big lead?

[spark]

Well...if he had the option of punting out the students who couldn't get it (or who didn't want to try)...I'm sure he would.

Those students that he saw the potential in he may assign the T.A. to tutor them through the rough patches.

Then he might call up the local high school business teachers and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd year profs and hand over the curriculm that would make any future students a success in his class.

:wink5:

Haha ok don't want to take this thread (well I guess it could get more off-track) on what a prof would do ... because that plan looks fine - my opinion is in the here and now he has students and his job is to teach them. If they are sinking nobody wins (get it?!) if he just shrugs his shoulders and says 'sucks to be you, too bad you're not as educated as kids in Canada, get out of my class'. Maybe while your plan is being implemented he adjusts his own curriculum so everyone is getting the most out of his course, the students come away with something, and when everything is caught up he resumes as he normally would?

If anyone has thoughts on what a 4th year prof teaching in a 2nd/3rd world country should do please feel free share :)

[tiberius]

Haha ok don't want to take this thread (well I guess it could get more off-track)

No worries - I don't think you can blow it much more off track - I mean Gordon does get mentioned at least once every 20 posts or so...:):) I've now mentioned Gordon, so we can follow the professor train of thought again for a while...:)

[Pookie]

Development league or not, they still need to win games. What seemed to be missing from TFC so far this year is any sense that they are concerned with winning any games in the near future. For a last place team they sound very arrogant about how they're going to "build" this team into something. They never seem to know the team they are playing against and which approach would be best against that team.


Sure they need to win games.

However, it is about expectations. If you don't have the tools, you can't expect to win.

This reminds me a lot of parents whose kids play for "Select" teams. As an example, on a select team there are generally 2 or more teams from the same club. The Club makes up 2 teams by ranking players 1 through 28 and sending player #1 to Team A and player #2 to Team B. Player #3 went to A, Player 4 went to B. The teams are balanced.

When a Select teams goes up against a Rep team, a team that takes the 14 best players, what is the expected result?

To hammer away at a team with unrealistic expectations is a silly exercise, IMO.

Go down our pre-July 15th roster and explain to me how TFC was better, on paper, than teams in the league?

Of course, this is about winning and I am in 100% agreement with you. So the challenge to Winter was to improve the team on paper AND THEN take that team and improve upon the results.

That sounds reasonable, doesn't it?

[Beach_Red]

^ In January TFC's roster was good enough to compete for 10th place in the league. If this is one step back for two steps forward, great.

I get the feeling, though, for this team to finish 10th they're going to have to have a top 3 roster because they lose too casually. As Whoop says, don't underestimate the effect of getting blown out so often.

All MLS teams have holes in their rosters, the key to success in this league is not leaving the holes too exposed, not trying to fill in every one.

But we'll see. I very much want to see TFC become a top team, a winning team. I guess it might even be better to wait a while until that is accomplished with homegrown talent (even if pro sports don't really work like that anymore).

[Roogsy]

Seriously, count mine in this thread alone.

Surely Im allowed a few posts to state my opinion, and the right to rebutt anybody who counters it.

Im confused as to what people think discussion boards are actually for.

VooDoo, I disagree with you, Im getting all kinds of semi-flamebait abuse from you, kenny and several others for presenting an opinion which is as credible, well thought out and well intentioned as yours.

Im being restrained, to be honest. I just want to discuss the teams issues from my standpoint. It would be nice if we were winning and the most argumentative thread was about whether Santos or Koevermans would get 15 goals first, but thats not happening.

The results dictate the fans will gather and offer their respective opinions and talk about them till everybody's sick of everybody else. Its a century old tradition, jeez I dunno... maybe the romans used to gather round in bars and argue over which chariot racing team owner should be resting what horses and which charioteer should be sent to the lions and replaced by a carthaginian.

again, thanks for your opinion, but stop pretending that there are only three people who disagree with you.

The ironic part in this? The negativity only comes when there is lack of respect on BOTH sides. But somehow it's the fault of only one side? Like somehow they are not complicit for the volume of posts?

So fine, some may come here to want to get pumped up and only read what tickles their ears. That's their choice. I think it's Ostrich syndrome but that's my personal belief. They can take whatever measure they feel is appropriate. Whether it be avoid threads, put people on ignore or not visit the board. It's a free country.

And you're right ER, we're not the only ones that feel that way. It's just that many people who feel this way are so tired of this team that they don't even bother anymore. So instead of worrying about the declining reputation of this club, we're supposed to look for the chocolate in this shit sandwich?

The only ones left will be the cheerleaders.

[ManUtd4ever]

Ensco, if I misinterpreted your post, then I retract my statement.

However, your post unequivocally stated that the forum is dominated by people that have grown to automatically side with management, and that it was a sad reflection on the forum as a whole. In actuality, the majority of posters have been neutral in their assessment of the subject matter of this thread.

Furthermore, you insinuated that anyone who doesn't share your opinion in criticizing management have twisted facts to support their position.

As for Winter's comments, we will agree to disagree. It is a matter of opinion as to whether his comments were directed at Nana, and whether they were appropriate or not.

[tiberius]

... So instead of worrying about the declining reputation of this club, we're supposed to look for the chocolate in this shit sandwich?

The only ones left will be the cheerleaders.

To be fair - you were mildly optimistic after the last game. In fact we went from shit to kinda average/maybe:

Pretty much what I expected, I said this team would need 2-3 games to find their way and losing to a top club in MLS shouldn't surprise us. These guys are after all MLS Cup finalists. I thought there was some good points to take. The DPs did show flashes of their superior quality. I thought Soolsma did well coming on as a sub.

But the D. Oh dear lord that D. And the space again in the middle of the pitch could fit several small houses.

Overall, better. But better from shit is something along the lines of average, and considering the payroll of this roster, average is not good enough. Let's hope that with time, it goes well above average.


Was that more of a post game high that has disipated somewhat, or was the shit sandwich reference more of a commentary on the season, as opposed to where we are at this instant? Are you still hopeful about the next few games?

[Roogsy]

Tiberius, I fully expect our DPs to make us a better team. So I am midly optmistic that their quality will have us avoid getting blown out 5-0 again. We may even manage a few more wins. The problem is that these new DPs don't address the lack of quality in the coaching. And until that is addressed, the impact of the new DPs will still have a drag on it as the ultimate performance will not be optimized unfortunately. And I, like my fellow TFC fans on the opposite side of this opnion, only want a successful club. To do that you have to methodically remove all obstacles in our path.

[Pookie]

So let me get this straight, the quality of players NOW is directly responsible for any improved results. The coaching has nothing to do with it.

Even though the quality of the players was poor BEFORE (since they are better NOW), the results are to be pinned on the coaching???

Honestly...

[Roogsy]

Im being restrained, to be honest. I just want to discuss the teams issues from my standpoint. It would be nice if we were winning and the most argumentative thread was about whether Santos or Koevermans would get 15 goals first, but thats not happening.

This statement reminds me of what it's like to visit friends watching soccer games live. Whether it be my Italian friends watching it at someone's home or coffee shop or family watching it at the local cantina or restaurant, the conversations get very heated. This is soccer. Some people need to grow thicker skin. Considering the attacks you and I have sustained on this board, it makes some of the more whiney posters seem a little sensitive. As long as lines aren't crossed and rules aren't broken, I am not sure what exactly people want, homogenous agreement?

[Oldtimer]

If the quality of the players was poor, how can you pin the results on the quality of the coaching???

You can't, but you can always alter reality to fit your preconceived notions.

The hate on Winter is really about DeRo, always has been.

[Roogsy]

If the quality of the players was poor, how can you pin the results on the quality of the coaching???


I think that's a fundamental question Pookie and for me the biggest reason I am not a Winter fan.

Nobody was asking Winter to win the MLS with his previous squad. But the quality of a coach can indeed be determined by what he squeezes out of whatever squad he has on his hands. If it's not already widely accepted, it is certainly being debated that Winter wasn't able to get very much out of the squad he had, as undertalented as it was. That is an incredibly worrisome sign. We could still have a 3-10-9 record but with much more fight apparent, and that would have been indicative by closer results of 1-0 or 2-1 instead of many blowouts. The -20 goal diff is a BIG tell.

Of course player quality is going to have an impact. And nobody is denying it did before. But you understate the responsibility of a coach when it suits you but then emphasize their importance when it is convenient to do so.

[Roogsy]

You can't, but you can always alter reality to fit your preconceived notions.

The hate on Winter is really about DeRo, always has been.


It isn't and the fact that you continue believeing it to be shows that you don't read my posts, you complain about them. It's not surprising considering when tested, you can't even back up your own claims.

It's a weak tactic to attack the person instead of the argument, it's called ad hominem and it's your most overused strategy and very transparent.

It's also a BIG reason why thread degenerate into what they become. Want to know why thread become shitshows? Look in the mirror. Right there is a big reason. Not the only one, but a big factor.

[Pookie]

You can't, but you can always alter reality to fit your preconceived notions.

The hate on Winter is really about DeRo, always has been.

Pretty good theory there.

I'd like to see us try to trade Iro, Giffit, Borland, the 1st rounder and one of our DP slots to DC just to end the drama.

[Pookie]

I think that's a fundamental question Pookie and for me the biggest reason I am not a Winter fan.

Nobody was asking Winter to win the MLS with his previous squad. But the quality of a coach can indeed be determined by what he squeezes out of whatever squad he has on his hands. If it's not already widely accepted, it is certainly being debated that Winter wasn't able to get very much out of the squad he had, as undertalented as it was. That is an incredibly worrisome sign. We could still have a 3-10-9 record but with much more fight apparent, and that would have been indicative by closer results of 1-0 or 2-1 instead of many blowouts. The -20 goal diff is a BIG tell.

It's a big tell but what is it telling? Poor coaching or poor roster quality?

What you are implying is as follows"

The quality of players NOW is directly responsible for any improved results. The coaching has nothing to do with it.

Even though the quality of the players was poor BEFORE (since they are better NOW), the results are to be pinned on the coaching???

Help me understand where that makes sense.

[Roogsy]

It's a big tell but what is it telling? Poor coaching or poor roster quality?

What you are implying is as follows"

The quality of players NOW is directly responsible for any improved results. The coaching has nothing to do with it.

Even though the quality of the players was poor BEFORE (since they are better NOW), the results are to be pinned on the coaching???

Help me understand where that makes sense.

I edited my previous response while you were answering so I will put it here: (I do that often, as thoughts pop into my head)



Of course player quality is going to have an impact. And nobody is denying it did before. But you understate the responsibility of a coach when it suits you but then emphasize their importance when it is convenient to do so.


The quality of the DPs is undeniable and it will help us overcome negative aspects of our club. But like I stated before, it`s like covering up sweaty stink with cologne instead of taking a shower. It`s just masking the problem, not removing it.

Having an undertalented team meant there was no "cover up" for Winter, exposing his weakeness as a coach.

Having a more talented squad helps cover up his shortcomings, but it doesn't make him a better coach no more than cologne means a person is any cleaner just because you can't smell the sweat.

[Roogsy]

Pretty good theory there.

I'd like to see us try to trade Iro, Giffit, Borland, the 1st rounder and one of our DP slots to DC just to end the drama.

It is only a good theory if it can be proven. And that is easily done by disproving what I claim to be the problem with this team, which is Winter's coaching weaknesses. Have any evidence that he is a good MLS coach? Put it forward and it would go a long way to proving my claims wrong. I'd really like to see such evidence. Otherwise, the "theory" is just a dig.

[Azerban]

The hate on Winter is really about DeRo, always has been.

i'm not full of care regarding dero either way, tending towards the side of "glad he's gone", and i still believe winter has done an demonstratively terrible job so far, and shows little sign of getting any better

what now

[JuliquE]

Oh, I see -- I should only share conversations when players tell me everything is sunshine and lollypops, not when someone's unhappy. I'll definitely keep that in mind for the future, and in the meantime, I humbly ask you to take your head out of your ass and spend some time thinking about the difference between blind-faith boosterism and true support.

Oh, and yes, this'll probably earn me a strike for a personal attack, so I apologize in advance.

Oh, and before the question is asked, yes, I would've posted this if Gordon had nothing but amazing things to say about the management and was full of regrets that he was leaving.

He said he was just settling into the city and liked living here, if that's any consolation. Does that help lift your mood about the state of the team?
Class class class.

See that, mods -- that's why you don't merge everyone's topics into one big jumble. I wanted to have a conversation away from this thread or any others to avoid just this (delicate subject).. hopefully providing an environment more conducive for a civil exchange of opinions.

I can't even be bothered posting, after this.

You win, DangerDude.. I'm sorry for my differing opinion on what is appropriate from what isn't. Don't worry about the attack, as I'm not too popular around these parts.

[ForeverTFC]

Haha ok don't want to take this thread (well I guess it could get more off-track) on what a prof would do ... because that plan looks fine - my opinion is in the here and now he has students and his job is to teach them. If they are sinking nobody wins (get it?!) if he just shrugs his shoulders and says 'sucks to be you, too bad you're not as educated as kids in Canada, get out of my class'. Maybe while your plan is being implemented he adjusts his own curriculum so everyone is getting the most out of his course, the students come away with something, and when everything is caught up he resumes as he normally would?

If anyone has thoughts on what a 4th year prof teaching in a 2nd/3rd world country should do please feel free share :)


Pedagogy vs andragogy :hump:

[tiberius]

I may take a bit of flack for this.. but it's okay, because I have on my crucifying-shorts and a clean pair of underwear - boxer-briefs, if you must know - ready to meet my maker.



Does it seem, to any of you, like inside info. from this board (and probably others, but I couldn't say), is often shared with an underlying motive to gain status points?

Under the thin veil of "hoping they're wrong," people will proceed to post information that they know will only fan the flames -- like giving a child candy and asking him/her not to eat it. It's widely agreed by most that Winter should stay on, at least until this time next season.. but then the same people of whom subscribe to the importance of us keeping a coach for more than one season will go out of their way to discredit him and stir the pot.

I liked what Alan Gordon had to say before he left (whilst it was still his problem), when he mentioned about it being important to believe in the coach and his system.. because if you start to question and doubt, it doesn't help things (if someone could find and post his direct quote, that'd be great).

I don't fully agree with it, though; I believe that timing is everything and it would be important to simply show your support throughout the season, reserving criticisms for when things are winding down and over the course of the off-season (less distracting).

I just feel like, instead of looking to be the person that start "this" or "that" conversation - the coveted OP, as it were - we should ask ourselves if posting this information is truly, as you would claim, in the best interest of the club. Maybe it's just a timing thing, but I get the impression that, for many, this is more of a popularity contest and the media will only follow suit.



You raise and interesting point, but as you point out in one of your later posts - it is useless to discuss this, given that the it is buried inside this other big thread...

[Whoop]

i'm not full of care regarding dero either way, tending towards the side of "glad he's gone", and i still believe winter has done an demonstratively terrible job so far, and shows little sign of getting any better

what now

I'm with Adam here. And I was in the "give him time" camp at the beginning of the year.

But I figured there were would be improvements.

[denime]

Getting rid of Gordon was a good thing. Yes, he scored goals, but he was too injury prone.

Look at who we've brought in this week. Look at the class of Frings compared to what we're used to seeing at BMO. Kovermans is a giant beast, he will tear MLS up.

And best of all, these guys are actual pros who don't need to be spoon fed instructions by their manager.

When I hear MLS players complain about running around and passing around too much in practice, I understand why our MLS players are so static and don't make off the ball runs.

Remember the all star game?
MLS = stand still, get ball, run, shoot/pass.
West Ham = constantly running to create space and open up opportunities to get the ball.

At the end of the day,
1) MLS players are pretty crap, so I don't really take their tactical criticisms very seriously.
2) TFC have made some serious additions to the club and we are in a much better position moving forward. If you can't get behind the team now, when can you?

We should have a special day on this board where no one is allowed to complain about anything. Total posts for the day would = 3

Thanks ,this sums it up very nice and simple,agree on all points.

The one about MLS so called professionals is absolutely spot on.No wonder only a handful of so called MLS big talents made it in Europe.

Few weeks into a season,Winter told Martina that he will get a limited playing time if any at all,until he improve his game,his reply was "ok Boss".Buckle up,work and wait for your chance,MLS pussies go on twitter and FB and whine how coach doesn't like him and still do fuck all in practice to improve his game to get back in lineup.

This is what Gorodn said to DangerRed

He said the coaches have done a horrible job explaining the "system' to the players and added that many just don't get it. He said they do a lot of passing drills in practice, more than he's ever seen, but when a player asks a question about how the system works beyond just "attacking, possession-oriented football," there are no answers. Players are just running around in confusion.My kid is 11 and for 1 year now he is practicing and playing in his Academy 4-3-3"Ajax System",every single kid knows what to do where to move and most importantly every single one of them knows how to receive and pass the fucking ball,and here I come and read a MLS Professional bitching about not understanding a "system" and to many drills for passing/receiving,and now it's coaches fault that MLS "tools" can't complete 10m pass,or god forbid initiate run into free space.

SO it is coaches fault that MLS "Tools" like o boot the ball because they can't get the ball under control fast enough and when they finally do,it's to late opponent is already there so whats left is BOOT IT,now other MLS Tool instead of initiating run and making himself open to his teammate who is under pressure he waits for ball to be booted and than he reacts/runs after it.

Sound like watching 8-18 REP teams in NA,but it's not it is MLS 101.

[denime]

Paul B. if any of MLS tools who are left over on the roster still don't know how the "system" works,please give them the link to this post so they can read and educate themselves.


Position responsibilities in 4-3-3

#1 Goalkeepers
Tactical Role in the Match
· Organization of the defenders with short and proper instructions.
· Possessing the ball after a shot or cross
· Minimize goals via shot stopping in proper position
· «Follow the ball» behind the defensive line.
· Be the last player who can win possession back for our team.
· Become a third central defender by being quick to react off your line.
· Receive the ball properly from teams back passes and make proper decision in distributing the ball (passing).
· You are the 1st organizer of the teams attack when in possession of the ball: Always gain as much field as possible by taking ball to the top of the Penalty are in order to distribute the ball.

Technical Requirements
Specific technical requirements of the goalkeeper:
· Catching the ball (holding) on all low and medium shots on goal.
· Save the ball by catching or punching the ball on crosses.
Technical requirements similar to field players:
· Passing with both feet.
· Immediate and accurate passes.
Receiving of the ball in a proper positioning outside of the parameters of the goal


# 2 and 5 Right / Left Backs (Defenders)
Tactical Roles

Defensive
· Immediate pressure applied to attacker on their side of the field.
· Winning the ball in all 1:1 opposing attacks (aggressive and confident play).
· Close towards the ball when it is on the opposite side of the field (zone defense). Become defensively compact.

Offensively
· Safe and simple organization of passing in pressure situations.
· Positive Participation in offense with a final action (Shot on Goal, pass to a winger or midfielder, or cross).
· Accurate passes toward your winger and midfielders (often to the wing).
· When attack is on the right the defender on the right side may join the attack while the other three defenders shift over to cover the right side and middle of the field.
· When attack is on the left the left defender may enter the attack
· When our team has a goal kick the two backs move up the line to half field
· If goalkeeper is to kick the ball up field the two backs close towards the middle of field in a defensive position goal side of the attacking team

Technical Requirements
· Receiving the ball: Proper reception (proper foot) of the ball in motion towards the free space in the field.
· Accurate Passing: With Simple passes towards the wingers (7or 11) or inside midfielders (6-8-10) our attack may begin with proper combination play along the wing (1-2, overlapping)
· Crossing: Accurate Crosses towards attackers in the box (especially #9). Mixedcrosses (short, long, lowetc.)


#3 and #4 Central Defenders
Tactical Roles

Defensively
· Responsible for organizing defensive line.
· High Degree of winning 1:1 situations in order to re-gain possession during opposition attacks.
· High Standard in the Aerial game (heading). Especially during set pieces and while defending long balls.
· Multiple roles:
ü Player must be able to play in depth (behind defensive line)
ü Player must be able to play in the same line (flat back four)
ü Player must have ability to play in front of defensive line with an important role in midfield play.

Offensively
· Proper organization of play with simple and accurate passing even under pressure situations.
· Joining the attack based on the situation of the game (attacking via the middle axis of the field, corner kicks, set pieces).
· Cooperation and position swapping with the defensive central midfielder (CDM).

Technical Requirements

¨ Accuracy in passing game: Begin with simple passes in order to start the team attack.
¨ Proper technique in receiving passes from GK, wide defenders and midfielders
¨ Proper timing when heading:
ü Time accurate jump to reach ball at highest point.
ü Accurate header having ball directed up and away to a side (avoid clearing in the middle axis).


#6 Central defensive Midfielder
Defensively
· Important player as the link between defensive line and attack.
· Team organizer of defensive pressure and shifting (Zone Defense).
· Immediate pressure or diagonal coverage of teammate (based on game situation).
· Awareness of passing channels and open spaces which must be neutralized.

Offensively
· Organization of game from defensive line to midfield and beyond.
· Main link to play forward when building from the back and switching point of attack.

Tactical Roles
· Correct and accurate passes to attackers. Fast dribbling game in order to gain space and attacking positions under constant pressure of opposition..
· Creation of opportunities to score with combination and individual play.

Technical Requirements
· Accurate short and long passing.
· Proper timing in passing. When passing in the depth of the field or diagonally there must be proper speed and weight applied to the pass in order for attacking teammate receiving the pass to keep their pace in motion( game speed) allowing the attacker to move on to a proper attacking form.

[tiberius]

Oh man, I love it here -- another big MASH of a 20 - 30-something page thread, all in one.

I was hoping to start a unique conversation about the moral responsibility of those "in the know," but instead it will be forever lost in a random ex-player's comment/complaint thread -- super!

...

Buh.

I too find this completely counterproductive to enabling conversation and encouraging conversation. That, coupled with the anonymity and a lack of accountability on merges, is icing on the cake. I asked for an explanation, public or private for the merge of a thread today... Did anyone respond to explain why? No, of course not. So everyone is left scratching their head as to when to start a new thread, and when not to? Baffling. It feels like targeting when no one steps forward.

[denime]

and for our mid/forwards


# 8 and # 10 Right and Left Midfielders (Inside)

Tactical Roles

Defensively
· Constantly closing towards the ball based on the positioning of the play.
· Constant and energetic pressure in facing opponents in your zone of responsibility.
· Constant ball winning and aggressive play
· Must have proper positioning to close opposing offensive passing lanes. This player maintains team balance
· Provides Pressure support for Striker and wingers

Offensively
· Quick and simple passing towards attackers and with a concentration on play from the wings.
· Freedom in attacking (based on side) organization depending on Game situation
· Must take long range shooting opportunities when available.
· One midfielder must always gain the box to be in a position to finish in the box (opposite side midfielder).
· Must combine well with #9
· Activate attackers with various passing options (switching attack, through balls –ground and aerial, combination play.
· (10) Constant motion into free spaces behind attackers in order to find moment for a finishing moment (shooting)

Technical Requirements

· Receiving the ball: Proper reception (proper foot) of the ball in motion towards the free space in the field.
· Accurate Passing: Simple combination of short and long passing mixing attack through the middle and wingers.
· Shooting: Combination play at top of the box and taking shots when directly outside of the Penalty area.
· Good set play executions


#7 and # 11 Right / Left Wing
Tactical Roles

¨ Instant Defending in opposition organization: Closing towards the side of the ball with quick and active pressure
¨ Preparing chances on goal via wing play through individual efforts and combination play.
¨ Keeping position in Attack close to the outer line with constant runs towards the goal and down the line when in possession.
¨ Creation of attacking opportunities via 1v1 play and crossing
¨ Must be able to beat players in a 1v1 situation on demand.

Technical Requirements

¨ Crossing: Accurate crosses in front of goal from various positions.Σ
¨ Dribbling: Fast dribbling with simple but mastered feints which can increase the tempo of play and pressure on opposing defenders.


# 9 Central Forward - Striker
Tactical Roles

Defensively
· Instant Pressure upon defenders when in possession within offensive zone and central axis.
· Constant motion towards side of play ball is on therefore closing down passing lanes and free space.

Offensively
· Explosive motions to free themselves of defenders.
· Accurate final chances with high percent of goal shots (especially after a 1v1 dual
· Instant passing to an oncoming midfielder or opening passing (one to two touch) to a winger to increase opportunity of final attempts (shots on goal)
· Good percentage of final attempts via headers. (Dominant at aerial game).

Technical Requirements

·A large repertoire of fakes and feints in order to avoid defenders challenges under immediate pressure
· Instant passing under severe pressure.
· Proper Timing in offensive heading:

[v00d00daddy]

I'm with Adam here. And I was in the "give him time" camp at the beginning of the year.

But I figured there were would be improvements.

There have been improvements. I firmly believe this.

The improvements just haven't translated into results.

A prime example was the NYRB drubbing of us of 5-0.

First half hour we looked good. You could see the improvements.

Then they fell apart and the talent of a few NYRB players shone through.

We are getting better.

Using the table to tell the tale give you an incomplete picture.

Combine the position in the standings with former player comments and the whole "Winter throws players under the bus" camp and you get a completely negative view of the team.

Try this:

Watch the game tonight and imagine its just 11 guys and a coach that you don't know. Now see how they look and compare it to the kick and run/bunker teams we've had in the past.

Then tell me that there's no difference and no improvement.

[denime]

Class class class.

See that, mods -- that's why you don't merge everyone's topics into one big jumble. I wanted to have a conversation away from this thread or any others to avoid just this (delicate subject).. hopefully providing an environment more conducive for a civil exchange of opinions.

I can't even be bothered posting, after this.

You win, DangerDude.. I'm sorry for my differing opinion on what is appropriate from what isn't. Don't worry about the attack, as I'm not too popular around these parts.

If your thread was merged,send PM or report it to the mods we can always unmerge it if it makes sense.


I read your new thread and it was refreshingly different than most threads on this board,I'm assuming it was merged for easier maintenance nothing personal.

[denime]

I may take a bit of flack for this.. but it's okay, because I have on my crucifying-shorts and a clean pair of underwear - boxer-briefs, if you must know - ready to meet my maker.

:rant:

Does it seem, to any of you, like inside info. from this board (and probably others, but I couldn't say), is often shared with an underlying motive to gain status points?

Under the thin veil of "hoping they're wrong," people will proceed to post information that they know will only fan the flames -- like giving a child candy and asking him/her not to eat it. It's widely agreed by most that Winter should stay on, at least until this time next season.. but then the same people of whom subscribe to the importance of us keeping a coach for more than one season will go out of their way to discredit him and stir the pot.

I liked what Alan Gordon had to say before he left (whilst it was still his problem), when he mentioned about it being important to believe in the coach and his system.. because if you start to question and doubt, it doesn't help things (if someone could find and post his direct quote, that'd be great).

I don't fully agree with it, though; I believe that timing is everything and it would be important to simply show your support throughout the season, reserving criticisms for when things are winding down and over the course of the off-season (less distracting).

I just feel like, instead of looking to be the person that start "this" or "that" conversation - the coveted OP, as it were - we should ask ourselves if posting this information is truly, as you would claim, in the best interest of the club. Maybe it's just a timing thing, but I get the impression that, for many, this is more of a popularity contest and the media will only follow suit.

:rant:

This is the one,right? ;)

[denime]

I too find this completely counterproductive to enabling conversation and encouraging conversation. That, coupled with the anonymity and a lack of accountability on merges, is icing on the cake. I asked for an explanation, public or private for the merge of a thread today... Did anyone respond to explain why? No, of course not. So everyone is left scratching their head as to when to start a new thread, and when not to? Baffling. It feels like targeting when no one steps forward.

There is a very good chance that posters would repeat themselves in both threads and we would end up with 2 exactly the same threads.

one started with negativity,other more positive ,but at the end both will end up being a bitch fest,so it's better have one big bitch fest than two.

[denime]

You still did not answer his main question.Give as an option instead of critics.What can we do? Please don't reply with don't buy merch,beer etc.What you think we can do to make a difference,do you really think they give a fuck about this board and our opinions?

I would really like to know what is the BIG thing we should do,if it makes any sense I'll be the first one to join and support you.

And tiberius don't get personal,this is the RPB board afterall.


It's not one big thing, it's many things that can and should be done.

Putting pressure on the team is not somethign that should blow up when patience finally runs out. It should be something that grows incrementally before it gets to that point. THAT has been the supporters main problem from the very beginning, on every issue that arises between supporters and the FO. We are always in crisis mode. We are always reacting, not being proactive. Putting out fires instead of putting in place deterrents.

The very first thing I think supporters should have done and can still do is to get a concrete and inequivocal promise from Toronto FC that we will make the playoffs next year. Period. No wavering. No qualifications. If we don't make the playoffs, major heads should roll. 2 full seasons in charge should produce at least this much, unless of course we're already preparing excuses as to why we can't make 10th out of 18 teams? We speak about it here about it being a minimum result, but why don't we have a promise from the FO? There is no way to hold them accountable to that unless we get that promise out of them.

If we can't even get this assurance from the team, then what's the point of doing anything else? A clear and unquestionable performance measure is an expected and logical demand of any high performance position. And yet we dance and skirt around this issue like we are going to hurt someone's feelings?

Why don't we have this already?

Thanks Roogsy


We should discuss the team and its issues, to death, on a discussion board so that a general picture of the fan sentiment can be understood.

Thanks for participating!

I don't know why are you replying on a question I asked Roogsy,but thanks anyway.

[Shakes McQueen]

I already said what I thought was Winter's weak spots, and why I have some doubts about him (stubbornness related to tactics, if you'll recall). My doubts don't happen to coincide with DeRo being traded, but come from my own coaching experience.

However, what you are doing with trying to judge each and every little thing ignores the big picture, and that's a mistake.

I did the same thing with Kreis. I thought he was crap. He traded away the league MVP for an injured player (Esky, many here said that Mo really took advantage of that "lousy" coach). His team set new records in futility. There was no cohesion and the locker-room was dispirited and not with the coach. All this for a coach with no experience whatsoever with coaching. I ridiculed him endlessly on this very board the first two seasons.

I was wrong, and I learned from that experience.

What I missed was that Kreis was putting into place a culture in his club. It took time. Coincidentally, that is what was always missing here in Toronto. We always had a mish-mash of players, many of them with bad attitudes, who didn't stick together and didn't meld. There were divides in the dressing room between the players, who ended up in certain camps. You know that this is true.

Now, what I see that's positive about Winter is that he is actually building a culture here at TFC. That's the big picture. Look beyond the individual trades (Kreis made some boners along the way). Look beyond the individual games and the short-term record. If you stop looking at individual trees and look at the forest, the squad is going in the right direction. Not only do we have some very talented people (and Frings is the general that we never had, Koevs looks like he'll be great once fit, and for once the DP slots are being properly used), but it looks like we are starting to get some cohesion for once.

Preki tried to do this, but he never had the support of the higher-ups (he tried to get rid of DeRo too, BTW). It looks like Winter has just been given permission to do what he wants, and I like what I see in squad building. So...

negatives
tactical stubbornness
poor communication
old-school hard-nosed treatment of players (can turn them off)

positives
old-school hard-nosed treatment of players (doesn't coddle them)
building squad cohesion
a good DP strategy

So what do i see here? That there are both positive and negative elements (note that I am not including short-term results here).

Almost every coach in the MLS has shortcomings, just like almost every player. If they were perfect in every way, they wouldn't be here. The trick is to have someone whose positives outweigh their negatives. I don't believe that we should make the same mistake that I made with Kreis and focus on individual moves. We'll only know if his positives outweigh his negatives by the middle to the end of next year, by next year's record. At that time, those of us who are giving things some time will either say "yay" or "nay."

This is my post of the century, OT. Perfectly and eloquently sums up my feelings too. I even agree with your misgivings about some of Winters tactial decisions.

- Scott

[TFCin110]

Thanks Roogsy



I don't know why are you replying on a question I asked Roogsy,but thanks anyway.

Because, Roogsy is a god guy that likes have a good discussion. The guy that answered your question just likes to argue and has to include a snarky, sarcastic remark in all of his posts.

[tiberius]

There is a very good chance that posters would repeat themselves in both threads and we would end up with 2 exactly the same threads.

one started with negativity,other more positive ,but at the end both will end up being a bitch fest,so it's better have one big bitch fest than two.

Thanks for the reponse.

[Pookie]

The quality of the DPs is undeniable and it will help us overcome negative aspects of our club. But like I stated before, it`s like covering up sweaty stink with cologne instead of taking a shower. It`s just masking the problem, not removing it.

Having ]an undertalented team meant[/B] there was no "cover up" for Winter, exposing his weakeness as a coach.

Having a more talented squad helps cover up his shortcomings, but it doesn't make him a better coach no more than cologne means a person is any cleaner just because you can't smell the sweat.

Do you realize that Winter can't win with you under your hypothesis (and I'm using the term extremely loosely)?

In your view:

Poor results = poor coaching
Better results = better players covering up "his shortcomings"

What's the point in commenting on his coaching when you've already reached a conclusion as to his abilities, regardless of the outcome?

I'm sorry but it is absurd.

[Stryker]

Seventeen pages because of an injury prone disgruntled ex-player?
Really?

[Shakes McQueen]

Seventeen pages because of an injury prone disgruntled ex-player?
Really?

Like I said - I'm glad I took a couple of days off from this place, haha.

- Scott

[Oldtimer]

It isn't and the fact that you continue believeing it to be shows that you don't read my posts, you complain about them. It's not surprising considering when tested, you can't even back up your own claims.


I read your posts, but you still haven't specified in a logical and coherent manner why you think Winter is incompetent, apart from some player's complaints. You keep going back to immediate results, which everyone on the "wait and see" side says is totally irrelevant.

Look Roogsy, you're a good man, and I respect you for what you've done for the game here in Toronto (including some real sacrifices), but it really looks like you've lost all objectivity. It really looks like what made you decide against Winter was the trading of DeRo, as your decision that he was a "poor coach" seemed to coincide with that on a timeline. Maybe you can correct us if this is a false impression. (It's not like I don't have doubts about him myself).

I'll decide to ignore your own ad hominem argument against me in the interest of preserving some sanity here, but look up 6 posts from this one. Peace.