Rate the Trades

[ManUtd4ever]

The impact of the trades this past week will not likely be demonstrable until all the players involved settle in with their new clubs, but based on your initial impression, how do you rate Aron Winter and Paul Mariner's performance in addressing the roster situation?

Incoming:

Ryan Johnson
Terry Dunfield
Andy Iro
Leandre Griffit

Outgoing:

Nana Attakora
Alan Gordon
Jacob Peterson
Tony Tchani

We are all familiar with the circumstances that led to the departure of the players formerly on TFC's roster. Of the four players that have left Toronto, Alan Gordon was the only player that contributed this season, and he was hampered by recurring injuries. Nana and Tchani are arguably the most significant losses based on their youth and potential upside, but for the most part, neither of them impressed in their limited appearances this season. Jacob Peterson is a serviceable backup forward at best, but his salary was not relative to his worth whatsoever.

With respect to the new players being added to the roster, TFC has added capable players that have fallen out of favor with their previous coaches for various reasons, but they have a fairly impressive collective pedigree that should provide an immediate impact to the first team.

In particular, Ryan Johnson may be the wildcard. In 2009, while playing his natural role as a striker, Johnson was lauded for his efforts as the leading scorer for San Jose with 11 goals, and earned the Team MVP award. Last season, Johnson was asked to adapt to a role as a winger, and although his goal production dropped off considerably since then, he has been widely acknowledged as the primary reason for Chris Wondolowski's breakout season, and his impressive assist totals can attest to his impact.

Terry Dunfield was one of Vancouver's standout players in the midfield earlier in the season, but his role was inexplicably reduced once Thordarson was replaced with Soehn. As a veteran presence with a great work ethic, he should be able to lead by example on the pitch and provide a positive influence in the locker room.

Likewise, Andy Iro is a solid defender who fell victim to the numbers game in Columbus following a coaching change in the off season, and he saw his starting role reduced to that of a backup, much to the chagrin of many supporters. Although he lacks pace, Iro should be a formidable presence in the central defence pairing.

Leandre Griffit is a talented journeyman winger that has been unable to stick with a club throughout his career thus far. He was never given a legitimate opportunity in Columbus to play siginificant minutes, but perhaps he can excel in Toronto, where he should receive ample opportunities to impress. At worst, he will provide depth on the wings, which is a luxury TFC has never enjoyed throughout it's existence.

Overall, I think the change of scenery will benefit all of the players involved in the transactions. I also believe TFC is a stronger squad today than it was last week, with added character and depth, and the ability to be far more competitive in the immediate future.

[profit89]

B+..

[ExiledRed]

hahaha we got a scouse CB

A+

[Mr. Bigby]

A nice analysis. I will miss Nana and Tony - mostly because of their potential - but I think that the new group fits well with the strengths of our new DPs, and the direction that Winter wants to take the team. I suspect (hope) that there's another defender waiting in the wings for next week.

Unfortunately, I also think that it will take another couple of weeks (at least) for the new group to start to jell, as they become familiar with each other, so I hope (but rather doubt) that we can cut them a little slack.

[AmherstNY_TFC]

Clearly, Mariner was not going to be content waiting until the off season to make improvements.

One of the hallmarks of good management (in any profession), is asking the question: "How can I improve my team?" every day. They brought in a central defender, which they desperately needed. They also made some moves in the midfield. Tchani had a lot of potential, but he gave away possession too easily. Gordon made the offense better-when he was healthy. Attakora was on the outs-despite his ability. Peterson was clearly a salary dump.

At least they have a few days to train together. I guess I'll need a program this Wednesday.

I'll grade it an Incomplete, until we see how these guys bed in. But, I am encouraged by management's refusal to be passive as the team struggles.

[Yohan]

I really don't like rating these trades until few games have gone and we can see how the new players do on the pitch. On paper though, these look like solid trades for TFC

[CSO_BBTB]

Given it was part of rebalancing the roster after the arrival of the two DPs something would be seriously wrong if the trades weakened the roster. These moves should be a case of taking full advantage of MLSE's largesse (albeit largely with our money) to upgrade the team. It's a case of too much too soon in his career right now for Plata so an experienced option was definitely needed on the left, while the void to be filled at centre back is obvious. Dunfield eventually should only be cover so the key thing to watch is Griffit. I suspect he was part of the price that had to be paid to get Iro and if he doesn't get traded on it will be interesting to see if he can give Soolsma a run for his money and displace him from the starting lineup by the end of the season. If he does the trades will move from what should on paper only at this stage be a competent and sensibly timed roster overhaul to a very good day at the office.

[TFCRegina]

Where is the "too soon to be making rash judgements" box?

[torontocelt]

I really don't like rating these trades until few games have gone and we can see how the new players do on the pitch. On paper though, these look like solid trades for TFC

Agreed, on paper these trades should be good for TFC, fingers crossed.

[Alonso]

Where is the "too soon to be making rash judgements" box?



Woah, woah, woah! Does that mean its too soon to be giving eachother hand jobs at this point from sheer anticipation of us tearing this league up? :D

I voted yes to the poll by the way... but would have selected a "too soon option had it been there"

[ManUtd4ever]

Where is the "too soon to be making rash judgements" box?

No rash judgements, just opinions based on the background information available on the players involved. Johnson, Dunfield, Iro, and Griffit are known commodities in MLS.

[TFCRegina]

No rash judgements, just opinions based on the background information available on the players invlolved. Johnson, Dunfield, Iro, and Griffit are known commodities in MLS.

If every player performs up to standard, I approve. Dunfield was a coup, either way you look at it.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I'm tilting towards positive but obviously waiting to see em play

[Detroit_TFC]

I agree on paper it is an improvement. But will the team chemistry be there? We can only wait and see. I am glad Winter/Mariner for acknowledged the problems (how could you not based on our record) and are attempting to do something about it instead of just muddling through the balance of the season.

[Pachuco]

On paper, injuries aside then I think it's pretty even. The moves make sense though because of the limited playing time Attakora has seen under Winter (not including injury), and limited playing time Alan Gordon has played due to injury. Also we had way too many DMs and one had to go.

So we are certaintly more balanced at this point and we've filled holes by trading players that were surplus or constantly injured.

I think both teams we traded with are happy with their deal and so are we.

And yes, we are definately stronger then we were before the trades because of what I mentioned above.

[Yohan]

On paper, I like the trades. Dunfield adds grit to a spineless midfield. Iro is a physical beast that won't back down from a challenge. Ryan Johnson can score, but also can add a bit of flair from wing. Add in Koevermans and Frings, you have a totally different TFC team that should be more mentally tough than before at least.

[Pookie]

With 6 new faces, an interesting poll question would be how soon do you start to expect improved results? (or how long before we see a fire Winter thread if they have a few challenges out of the gate?)

[prizby]

too early to tell

[woolly]

I honestly can't imagine the team being any worse than they have been over the last 3 months, so by elimination I voted yes.

But I'm hoping that the improvement will be more of a leap than a step...

[ManUtd4ever]

With 6 new faces, an interesting poll question would be how soon do you start to expect improved results? (or how long before we see a fire Winter thread if they have a few challenges out of the gate?)

I expect to see significant improvement immediately, as the overall football IQ of the club should be substantially greater now. I don't expect TFC to necessarily win their next 5 matches in a row, but with the additions of Frings, Koevermans, and the new players acquired via trades, I would be extremely disappointed if the club is not in a position to at least earn a result in every match from this point forward, regardless of the initial adjustment period.

[jloome]

The one constant in these deals is that the players we're getting are all positionally smart players. They know where to be. Tchani did too, but his technique and work rate were kinda shit sometimes.

[Couchy81]

I'm looking forward to the positive effect these trades are going to make on the immediate play of the team.

Liked Tchani but as mentioned above, was still too raw, bad touches and passes, still early in his development.

I dont know why but I have a feeling Dunfield is going to be a nice surprise and play really well.

[Azerban]

i don't understand ratings unless they're in the form of ibrahim heads anymore



i think i have brain damage

[DichioTFC]

why was this question even asked?

[Roogsy]

I think these trades on their own a slight improvement but nothing significant. They key here is whether this group fits better with the new DPs. And whether it allows certain players to play their natural positions (ie. Ecks & Yourassowki).

Based on that yes this is an improvement. The next consideration for me will be whether Winter will know how to get the best out of this group. It's no secret I don't rate Winter's coaching ability very highly.

[69Chevy396]

Ultimately, Johnson for DeRo: Wonder why this is a last place team?

[ManUtd4ever]

Ultimately, Iro, Borman, Griffit, and a 1st round pick for DeRo

Fixed

[ensco]

Well, the team wasn't playing together at all, and this represents a heart transplant. They either had to do that, or release the manager. So it's definitely positive from that POV.

The first trade was quite clever, freeing up cap space, roster slots, and getting an international slot. Very nice. But the second, omg. The team's only real core assets going into this were Tchani, and superdraft picks, and maybe Frei. (I find the fact that the majority of people here are saying "good riddance" to Tchani among the most amazing things I've seen in 4+ years around here.) Since TFC come out of the trades with one fewer core asset than they went into it with, I am not wild about the deals, but am hoping that Iro is a stud, but that is a big if. Even if he is, if Tchani pans out, WinterMariner may have made the blunder of a lifetime on that second trade.

In general, trades are by definition mostly zero-sum exercises. It's easy to effect "change" without getting better. I feel that the true test in MLS is drafting, and your non-DP signings. Edu and Dichio and Guevara were brought in a long time ago, and we haven't done much in these areas since then. But that's a different thread...

[ManUtd4ever]

Fair points ensco, time will tell if Tchani was worth giving up for Iro. I don't get the sense that anyone was saying good riddance to Tchani though, I see it as just criticism of his performance this season. That being said, I also would have preferred if he was retained and given time to develop, but the current state of our backline forced management into a making a difficult decision, and in their estimation, a necessary sacrifice.

[boban]

Where is jury is still out?

[bangersandmash]

. (I find the fact that the majority of people here are saying "good riddance" to Tchani among the most amazing things I've seen in 4+ years around here.) Since TFC come out of the trades with one fewer core asset than they went into it with, I am not wild about the deals, but am hoping that Iro is a stud, but that is a big if. Even if he is, if Tchani pans out, WinterMariner may have made the blunder of a lifetime on that second trade

tchani had some useful qualities. His ability to pass was not one of them. He could break up an attack, but that is Frings' job now. Tchani didn't fit any more.

[rocker]

I don't remember reading anything about people saying good riddance to Tchani (Peterson, yes).

But I'm not sure why anyone would have any attachment to the guy, considering he was here for a very short time. He was decent. I liked him. I would have been intrigued by keeping him on for the future and seeing what he could develop into.

He could be a good player in this league as he matures, but in no way is Tchani a "protect at all costs" kind of player. Mariner got good value in return for a key position.

On the Nana question -- yes he's promising too. But I actually think we have a young promising replacement in Doneil Henry. Actually, Henry is a better overall defender than Nana was at 18. Less of a physical specimen than Nana, but Henry is better with the ball at his feet and reads the game better.

[nickio]

I saw a few times during the games when Nana would make a few passes, and Winter would get up and scream something at him. I think Nana's game on the ball was a big part of the problem and probably cause a disagreement and so forth... Nothing new in that, just my observation from seeing the games in-person, something you don't see on TV most of the time.

Tchani's passing was starting to piss me off, he's just not the right footballer for the system and it was obvious enough times.

[MarkoftheDrink]

My $0.02:

Out:

I think there could be a bit of an "addition by subtraction" element to these trades. Based on Peterson's post trade tweets and some of his old interviews, he seems like a bit of a Debby Downer. Just getting rid of him and his contract for noting is a plus IMO. Nana is another one who seemed less than committed to the team based on the contract issues he was having. I love his potential but he didn't seem to have the potential to do well in the 433. So while based on the euphoria from previous years it's hard to see him go, it didn't seem like he had much of a future at TFC.

Initially I was disappointed when we acquired Gordon based on what LAG fans thought of him, I grew to love what Gordon brought to the pitch... when he was on it. He became injury-prone surplus when Da Koef was brought in. I think he was getting about $100k/yr and since he was playing in fewer than half our games and likely moving to the bench, he wasn't worth it.

Tchani, while he has a great body for a DM and did quite well at not getting knocked off the ball when he had it, as we all know he can't distribute worth a lick. He took waaaay too long to make a pass (whether this was a result of over thinking due to being in an unfamiliar system, who knows) and when he did was often quite inaccurate. Love that potential but, like Nana, his potential was not right for the 433.

I think the biggest issue with Tchani is going to be his salary. He's GA this year so it's not an issue now but next year he's definitely not going to be. Correct me if I'm wrong I think he's making almost $200k next two years. Right now he's not worth a $200k per year cap hit and I don't think he will be next year either.

In:

Admittedly I don't know much about what we're getting back but, Johnson seems like he can cross a ball from the 11 and might be a buy low kinda player seeing as he was SJ's MVP a few years ago. From what I've read SJ's been moving him around between ST and LW which could explain his poor strike rate. I think this trade was more about cleaning out the chaff but Johnson looks like he could be a better fit here than what we gave up.

Iro is a healthy left footed CM with size. Not sure need to say more based on our current situation.

Dunfield looks like a decent pick up considering what we gave up.

Griffit, based on this vid, looks like he's got some skill and could be a 433 kinda guy:

CWHz6WbS1LM

In the end I think we brought in some potential help and added some flexibility in terms of the cap. Then again right after a trade is the easiest time to be optimistic. Kudo's to Paul, Aron and Bob.

[DOMIN8R]

Ensco and I watched Tchani play TFC in NY last year. He looked like a star in the making. When I heard we got him, I was over the moon. But (perhaps like the coaching staff) it appeared to me that he was strugling here. Perhaps because of the system, injuries, insufficient familiarity with his team mates or other. In any case, I trust Winter, Mariner and de Klerk (WMD= Weapons of Mass Destruction?). If he didn't fit the sytem or he had to be given up for something that made more sense - then so be it. I have alot of confidence in these guys - unlike Ensco!

[ensco]

I have alot of confidence in these guys - unlike Ensco!

I'm skeptical, not cynical! I'd love to be proven wrong.

Anyone else think it's interesting that we collectively rate these trades 114 for, with 2 against? Are the Columbus and SJ FOs such proven rubes?

[DOMIN8R]

I'm skeptical, not cynical! I'd love to be proven wrong.

Anyone else think it's interesting that we collectively rate these trades 114 for, with 2 against? Are the Columbus and SJ FOs such proven rubes?

CC and SJ have their own agendas. We're not, at present, a playoff threat for 2011. So trades were probably made thinking that we would not come back to haunt. It appears that Iro and Johnson had "issues" where they were - like we had with Nana. Johnson, Iro and Nana haven't seen many minutes other than reserves.

They dumped and so did we.

The question should be - did WMD do their homework and get the better "fit" = value. I would argue that, at face value, - they did.

[AmherstNY_TFC]

Or is it Johnson for Dax McCarty? According to the announcers on MSG Network (which carries Red Bulls and Sabres games in Buffalo), DeRosario was shipped out because he wanted a new contract and Designated Player money. Sound familiar?

[Yohan]

Or is it Johnson for Dax McCarty? According to the announcers on MSG Network (which carries Red Bulls and Sabres games in Buffalo), DeRosario was shipped out because he wanted a new contract and Designated Player money. Sound familiar?
and needing cap space to sign Frank Rost as 3rd DP?

[Auzzy]

How do I rate the trades of the past week? With a very firm "I dunno"!

One thing for sure: I would not even want to rate the trades of this week on their own (even I were to wait longer before judging their impact). I think you at least have to include the signings of Frings and Koevermans in any assessment. For example, the trade of Gordon makes much more sense in light of the signing of Koevermans. Losing Tchani is a big surprise, but is understandable in light of the signing of Frings and Dunfield.

And I think we also have to see what other trades & signings are still coming in the next few weeks before being able to rate anything. I expect at least another CB to be signed for example. Without that, these trades don't add enough in defense.

[Shakes McQueen]

It's hard to rate a trade before anyone has even taken to the pitch, but on paper I'm really happy with the moves. We've gotten stronger where we needed to get stronger, and we got back usable assets for players who either weren't working out, or rarely played.

Coupled with the new DPs that will be starting Wednesday, and I think our team will be significantly stronger once they've had a chance to gel, which may take a few games.

I still think we've got work to do, though. Namely, we need another defender at least.

- Scott

[GeorgeBest]

I rate these trades a wash at best.

The Columbus players have barely seen the field this year, Julius James has been first choice over Iro. What does that say? Johnson has 1 goal in the past 1 1/2 years. I would say that is a pretty poor run of form for a forward. Dunfield is a journeyman player, I liked what I saw for Canada, but he is still relatively unproven as an MLS player.

What I don't like about these trades, is that TFC will fail to benefit from the development of two young players in Tchani and Attakora. Attakora was one of our best players last year. The failure to re-sign him isn't all on Nana himself, TFC management bears a lot of responsibility here. Is TFC saying with these trades that they are just going to continue rotating a group of journeyman players instead of developing and keeping good young players? If so, how successful has that been in the last 4+ years?

[koryo]

I think these trades on their own a slight improvement but nothing significant. They key here is whether this group fits better with the new DPs. And whether it allows certain players to play their natural positions (ie. Ecks & Yourassowki).

Based on that yes this is an improvement. The next consideration for me will be whether Winter will know how to get the best out of this group. It's no secret I don't rate Winter's coaching ability very highly.

Agreed on all points.

[ensco]

Is TFC saying with these trades that they are just going to continue rotating a group of journeyman players instead of developing and keeping good young players? If so, how successful has that been in the last 4+ years?

Now I see it's 127 to 2.

ensco's first law of poll results: when they look like the election results for third world dictators, the "group" turns out to be wrong a lot more often than you'd think they would or should.

[ren989]

I rate these trades a wash at best.

The Columbus players have barely seen the field this year, Julius James has been first choice over Iro. What does that say? Johnson has 1 goal in the past 1 1/2 years. I would say that is a pretty poor run of form for a forward. Dunfield is a journeyman player, I liked what I saw for Canada, but he is still relatively unproven as an MLS player.

What I don't like about these trades, is that TFC will fail to benefit from the development of two young players in Tchani and Attakora. Attakora was one of our best players last year. The failure to re-sign him isn't all on Nana himself, TFC management bears a lot of responsibility here. Is TFC saying with these trades that they are just going to continue rotating a group of journeyman players instead of developing and keeping good young players? If so, how successful has that been in the last 4+ years?

To be fair I think Winter and De Klerk see things differently in terms what they define as a young player. In European standards Tchani and Attakora aren't exactly prospects. Guys like Cordon, Henry and Morgan are the true prospects. So what does it matter if its Alan Gordon or Ryan Johnson playing or any other journeyman for that matter? The long term goal is to develop their own players which will take time and hopefully they can succeed doing that.

[menefreghista]

Now I see it's 127 to 2.

ensco's first law of poll results: when they look like the election results for third world dictators, the "group" turns out to be wrong a lot more often than you'd think they would or should.

I kind of regret voting yes.

I did mostly because I initially liked the Johnson trade. We gave up a player that wasn't good enough (Peterson), a player that is always hurt (Gordon) and a player that was not in the management's future plans (Nana). Plus I think Dunfield was a decent acquisition.

That being said, in terms of building, we have actually gone backwards. Tchani and Attakora are probably the closest thing TFC had to prospects. Now we have essentially traded our 2 biggest prospects for two projects (Iro and Johnson).

In the case of the 3 major players we added, TFC was buying low. Sometimes that ends up working out for you if the players can get back to their previous form. But sometimes players never get it back.

Also, it wouldn't shock me if after everything is said and done, all we have left from the De Rosario trade is a draft pick.

[Beach_Red]

^ Maybe not so much backwards as they've decided the standard "MLS" way to build a team is the way to go. Maybe they've just put off the new direction they'd planned to take the organization for another year or two, but what this looks like is a more typical MLS set-up, a couple of veteran DPs, some guys who've reached their level in MLS and some kids.

[GeorgeBest]

To be fair I think Winter and De Klerk see things differently in terms what they define as a young player. In European standards Tchani and Attakora aren't exactly prospects. Guys like Cordon, Henry and Morgan are the true prospects. So what does it matter if its Alan Gordon or Ryan Johnson playing or any other journeyman for that matter? The long term goal is to develop their own players which will take time and hopefully they can succeed doing that.

I agree what is defined as a young player or prospect is far different in Europe than MLS. You'll notice in my post I said developing and keeping good young players. Nana is a player that was with the team since he was 18, developed into key player and starter last year and was considered by many to be a cornerstone player. Now he's gone. What is the point of developing Cordon, Henry and Morgan if you give up on them after doing all the hard work?

[menefreghista]

^ Maybe not so much backwards as they've decided the standard "MLS" way to build a team is the way to go. Maybe they've just put off the new direction they'd planned to take the organization for another year or two, but what this looks like is a more typical MLS set-up, a couple of veteran DPs, some guys who've reached their level in MLS and some kids.

Ya. I can agree with that.

It appears Winter had to learn the hard way that not just any European player can march into MLS and 'tear this league apart'.

So they had to readjust and actually grab more players with MLS pedigree. But in order to do so some young prospects had to be shown the door.

I think there is a certain level of self-preservation going on here. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm with ExiledRed on the point that if the results continued to suck, Winter was a candidate for quitting. These moves are probably his last stand.

A lot of people keep saying that Winter has to make the playoffs in his 2nd season and that this season was a write off from the beginning. But I get a sense that within the TFC FO that isn't good enough. The team needs to be more competitive this year, playoffs or not.

[ensco]

A lot of people keep saying that Winter has to make the playoffs in his 2nd season and that this season was a write off from the beginning. But I get a sense that within the TFC FO that isn't good enough. The team needs to be more competitive this year, playoffs or not.

There is the minor issue of the looming 2012 SSH renewal problem. The issue of keeping a potential star prospect pales by comparison.

[menefreghista]

There is the minor issue of the looming 2012 SSH renewal problem. The issue of keeping a potential star prospect pales by comparison.

That's partly why I think there is pressure from above.

IF they can reel off a couple of wins right before the renewals go out, you know they will start selling the hope of 2012. "Imagine how great 2012 will be with a full season from Frings and Koevermans!"

The real question is how long will it take for this essentially new team to gel? I'm guessing about a month? We're already hearing stories that Koevermans isn't fit. Iro will probably need a few games to get into match shape.

[PopePouri]

I agree what is defined as a young player or prospect is far different in Europe than MLS. You'll notice in my post I said developing and keeping good young players. Nana is a player that was with the team since he was 18, developed into key player and starter last year and was considered by many to be a cornerstone player. Now he's gone. What is the point of developing Cordon, Henry and Morgan if you give up on them after doing all the hard work?

The academy guys don't count against the cap which means they're not subject to the same type of analysis or cost/benefit. If Nana doesn't fit the system now, the repercussions are more evident because his salary could be used by someone who can better fit the system. Henry and co do not have that pressure.

[ensco]

The academy guys don't count against the cap which means they're not subject to the same type of analysis or cost/benefit. If Nana doesn't fit the system now, the repercussions are more evident because his salary could be used by someone who can better fit the system. Henry and co do not have that pressure.

This "system" talk has become absurd. At this level this doesn't matter. It's football. The guy is either a good player or he isn't.

[Pigfynn]

How do I rate the trades of the past week? With a very firm "I dunno"!

One thing for sure: I would not even want to rate the trades of this week on their own (even I were to wait longer before judging their impact). I think you at least have to include the signings of Frings and Koevermans in any assessment. For example, the trade of Gordon makes much more sense in light of the signing of Koevermans. Losing Tchani is a big surprise, but is understandable in light of the signing of Frings and Dunfield.

And I think we also have to see what other trades & signings are still coming in the next few weeks before being able to rate anything. I expect at least another CB to be signed for example. Without that, these trades don't add enough in defense.


Yes,

I would say that the greatest benefit to TFC to come out of the past few weeks in that by bringing in two top players with proven records of high performance, we add to our team a level of professionalism that we have never had before.

Now when the other TFC players are at training day in a day out they will have winners around them who will inspire and push them. Koevermans and Frings will command respect from the others and they will trust these guys. I for one have always felt that this was something severely lacking from TFC since day one. Winners bring a winning state of mind with them.

As Plata charges towards the box from now on he will have more trust that the guy waiting for the ball will put it away. When Frings breaks up yet another play and turns to put a ball through the team will be lifted by his skill and calmness.

It will add to confidence and credibility in this league as a winning team. It will plant doubt in the minds of the opposition. All things that this team has never been able to do in the past.

[GeorgeBest]

The academy guys don't count against the cap which means they're not subject to the same type of analysis or cost/benefit. If Nana doesn't fit the system now, the repercussions are more evident because his salary could be used by someone who can better fit the system. Henry and co do not have that pressure.

Is there any evidence that Andy Iro "fits the system" any better than Nana? How many CB's are there in the world who have a high level of skill on the ball (to go with tackling and aerial ability) and have the capability to play a Barcelona style possession game? Answer: Not many and most of those cost 5-10 million euros a year. At an MLS salary? If Winter is searching for that, it may be a long long search.

BTW, I've watched TFC's games this year, what is this "system" you speak of?

[PopePouri]

Is there any evidence that Andy Iro "fits the system" any better than Nana? How many CB's are there in the world who have a high level of skill on the ball (to go with tackling and aerial ability) and have the capability to play a Barcelona style possession game? Answer: Not many and most of those cost 5-10 million euros a year. At an MLS salary? If Winter is searching for that, it may be a long long search.



I was making a point with regard to academy vs. players under the salary cap.

My answer is I don't know, I also don't know what Nana did on the training ground or his attitude so I can't fully say why Winter was not fond of him. I don't know what Mariner sees in Iro that he would be better than Nana. I haven't seen much of Iro but Mariner knows Iro since college so maybe he knows his capabilities. There's numerous possibilities and it's all speculation.


BTW, I've watched TFC's games this year, what is this "system" you speak of?

4-3-3, playing out of the back, possession.



This "system" talk has become absurd. At this level this doesn't matter. It's football. The guy is either a good player or he isn't.

Bullshit. Gordon was a prime example of someone who played to the best of his ability when he was in Toronto. Do you think he would have been as effective under Preki? All players and strengths and weakness.

[Gazza]

Woah, woah, woah! Does that mean its too soon to be giving eachother hand jobs at this point from sheer anticipation of us tearing this league up? :D

I voted yes to the poll by the way... but would have selected a "too soon option had it been there"

It's never too soon to give each other hand jobs.

Definitely too soon to tell about the trades though.

[GeorgeBest]

4-3-3, playing out of the back, possession.



Sorry, I was joking, well half-joking really. I just haven't noticed much that is "systematic" in TFC's play this year, unless a propensity to backpass to your opponent's forwards resulting in scoring opportunities against is a system.

[Alixir]

honestly in my opinion I don't think these guys we brought in are going to make the team worse the we already are.

[123 elite]

This just strikes me as another rearranging deck-chairs move. Can't really say either way how it will work until there are a few games gone with the new line up. DPs included. I just don't get this bring in Tchani (especially considering who left for him) and then a few months later he's gone. Same with Gordon. As for Gordon ALWAYS being injured. He's injured right now. That doesn't mean he is always going to be injured. Now he's gone. Nana was one of the best we've had over the last couple. Gone. I fully expect Frei to go next.

[rocker]

I just don't get this bring in Tchani (especially considering who left for him) and then a few months later he's gone. .

So you don't think Iro for Tchani helps our defense?

[123 elite]

I cant make that judgement until i see something on the field. I still question the wisdom of bringing in someone only to replace him a very short time later and then be expected to see that kind of move as 'wisdom' from the people in charge. To me it just looks like a 'lets try this guy... no lets try that guy... no lets try the next guy' pin the tail on the donkey move. Its not just that. What's the perception of this club looking like to anybody out there considering a future here and what message does it send to academy players. 'TFC - the team that has an insane player turnover' doesn't look very good to football players.

[CSO_BBTB]

...What's the perception of this club looking like to anybody out there considering a future here...

All the previous roster turnover didn't seem to turn off Frings and Koevermans. Beyond that Mariner/Winter had to take what they could get for DeRosario to a certain extent when the decision was made that he had to be moved on (let's not rehash the advisability of that here given the way it has been done to death already) and were probably not in a position to be too choosy so it's no huge shock that a player obtained in that deal would move on.

[ensco]

Bullshit. Gordon was a prime example of someone who played to the best of his ability when he was in Toronto. Do you think he would have been as effective under Preki? All players and strengths and weakness.

Sorry it bothers you, but formation talk has been way, way, way overdone on these boards. I'll leave the general point (it's been done to death), other than to say that, at the MLS level, it's simply not true that good players can't adjust to formations.

I don't agree with your specific example either. You must be kidding. This "system" of ours has produced the worst offence in MLS so far in 2011. You're seriously arguing that it made an individual players look better?

[Cashcleaner]

It's hard to rate a trade before anyone has even taken to the pitch, but on paper I'm really happy with the moves. We've gotten stronger where we needed to get stronger, and we got back usable assets for players who either weren't working out, or rarely played.

Coupled with the new DPs that will be starting Wednesday, and I think our team will be significantly stronger once they've had a chance to gel, which may take a few games.

I still think we've got work to do, though. Namely, we need another defender at least.

- Scott

Totally agreed. I think we really have to hold off on any substantial commentary here because as you mention, we're yet to see this squad play as one unit against competition. Even then, we'll need a few games to see how players adapt to Winter's system and each other (again, as you pointed out).

That said, however, on paper we're a much stronger team than we were and despite the loss of some fairly popular players, the club is better for the trades. What we were lacking in offence, we now have, and the defence is looking significantly better than before. As strange as it may sound, for me each individual deal hasn't exactly blow me away but the culmination of all combined is very exciting.

Koevermans and Frings were never the sort of players I'd expect us to sign as DPs, but they are what we need and plug a gap. Iro is a solid defender with an impressive list of college honours and, again, plugs a gap for us. Most other acquisitions are definitely utilitarian in their nature, but you can never go wrong with quality depth when it's needed.

And yes, another good starting defender would hit the spot.

[kaos197O]

SO at the end of the day we got

Borman, Iro, Griffit, Dunfield?(depending at what price he came), Johnson and 2 first round picks

for

Dero(and paying a good chunk of his salary), Labrocca, Peterson and Attakora.

On paper.....not bad I guess. It will all boil down to those draft picks for me. If they are flops.....we are the losers in this deal. If they turn out great.....we win.

[Pookie]

^ can't really simplify it totally.

For example, if the DP tag was necessary to keep DeRo the option was either:

Keep DeRo in TFC Red OR Borman, Iro, Griffit, 1st Round Pick and passing up one of Frings or Koevermans

Of course, we could debate the whole DP tag thing till the last man standing but it just shows that the permutations and combinations are plentiful this season if you are trying to gauge who won the deals.

[Empirical]

The results of this poll will certainly make their way to the top of TFC management. Good job giving them a well earned pat on the back for doing their best to fox this mess.

161 in favor. 3 against. At a super pessimistic (justifiably) time in TFC history. Wow. Thats a strong sign of optimism.

Were showing them that we are not insatiable negative nancies.

[ensco]

^Yes, TFC management will see this all right.

I have a different conclusion than you do about the implications of that.

Rather than start a shitstorm, think I'll head back to the Alan Gordon/beer thread...

[kaos197O]

The results of this poll will certainly make their way to the top of TFC management. Good job giving them a well earned pat on the back for doing their best to fox this mess.

161 in favor. 3 against. At a super pessimistic (justifiably) time in TFC history. Wow. Thats a strong sign of optimism.

Were showing them that we are not insatiable negative nancies.
Actually, I think most people are just saying that they have faith that Winter/Mariner know what they are doing and that these trades will have a positive impact. It will be difficult for us to compete with the numbers we put up in the first 21 games of this season so it's kind of safe to say that with all these moves AND the Frings and Koevermans signings, we have improved.

We have to wait and see though how the non DP related trades end up working out though. I for one can't pat anyone on the back yet for a job well done. Only when the results improve and the play on the field improves from week to week can I do that. I can say that they are trying but, having said that, team makeovers haven't worked well for us in the past.

We'll see!

[Blowing Bubbles]

really didn't like giving up Tchani since DeGuz won't be around long term but meh ..... probably overall good trades on teh whole as it helped balance some lineup issues but this is hardly going to make us contenders

[Shakes McQueen]

^Yes, TFC management will see this all right.

I have a different conclusion than you do about the implications of that.

Rather than start a shitstorm, think I'll head back to the Alan Gordon/beer thread...

If there are real world "implications" of any kind at the club, based on the results of a RPB internet poll, we are fucked either way.

While I suspect more than a few TFC people probably monitor the prevailing mood among the supporters, I don't think they pay that much attention to polls like these.

If these trades and the new DPs make no difference after a handful of games, then I fully expect the board to go back into crisis mode.

- Scott

[Oldtimer]

If these trades and the new DPs make no difference after a handful of games, then I fully expect the board to go back into crisis mode.

- Scott

About 2 games would do it.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

About 2 games would do it.

HAHAHAHAHA agreed

[PopePouri]

If we lose to Dallas, I suspect the shitstorm will start earlier.

[Pookie]

If we lose to Dallas, I suspect the shitstorm will start earlier.

Like after a poor pass made in an open practice? Sounds about right.

[menefreghista]

If we lose to Dallas, I suspect the shitstorm will start earlier.

There are no more post game loss shitstorms anymore. There's simply too much apathy for that.

[Globetrotter]

The results of this poll will certainly make their way to the top of TFC management. Good job giving them a well earned pat on the back for doing their best to fox this mess.

161 in favor. 3 against. At a super pessimistic (justifiably) time in TFC history. Wow. Thats a strong sign of optimism.


Or all it shows is that we can't really drop any further. The distance between Toronto and the floor is the same distance as falling off your chair. We only have Vancouver below us.

There. That's your super pessimism. ;)

[rocker]

We only have Vancouver below us.


On the positive side, we actually have New England below us as well. :)

[Detroit_TFC]

Well, like most things, it is more complex than simply good or bad. On the positive side Winter/Mariner chose to act now rather than wait out the season. On the other hand its hard to expect the collection of players we have now to function as a team for some time. We didn't have a core before and we still don't have a core, in a leadership sense.

That having been said, we have some prospects. Contrast this to the Revs who I would say is imploding in a big way right now.

[JJSFC]

Posted this in another thread:

Hi I'm a Southampton fan and a long-time TFC follower/sufferer from across the pond.

We had Leandre Griffit at Saints a few years ago. I'm confident that he'd suit Winter's system just right.

He's quick, technical and very tidy on the ball. Got a good touch/close control and rarely wastes a pass in the final third. I'm hoping that these trades will turn our season around.

:scarf:

[ManUtd4ever]

Based on recent speculation, the trade/transfer rumors surrounding TFC are still swirling, with the promise of more transactions to come from management. It's remarkable to note that there are now only 6 players remaining from last season's first team roster.

Frei
JDG
Santos
Harden
Gargan
Cann (long term injured reserve)

Needless to say, the results from this point forward are squarely on Aron Winter and Paul Mariner's shoulders.

[PopePouri]

Jeez, Iro is huge.

Also looks like a good guy to have in the dressing room.

[Roogsy]

Needless to say, the results from this point forward are squarely on Aron Winter and Paul Mariner's shoulders.


I hope so. At some point I would like the excuses to stop.

[Pookie]

Fair to say that this is their team now. Whether it is EXACTLY where they want it to be is probably a point for debate but I think we are now through the "new hire" honeymoon period, they've put their stamp on it and over the next season and a half, performance needs to improve.

[Oldtimer]

Fair to say that this is their team now. Whether it is EXACTLY where they want it to be is probably a point for debate but I think we are now through the "new hire" honeymoon period, they've put their stamp on it and over the next season and a half, performance needs to improve.

That's a fair statement. Now what's left is tweaking and the players getting familiar with each other.

[Pigfynn]

That's a fair statement. Now what's left is tweaking and the players getting familiar with each other.

Which will take more time. Yup, it's true!

People will have to understand that this will take time and that when you get new players they need experience together as a team in order to gel.

Patience will be required, but I won't hold my breath.

[ManUtd4ever]

The top 11 changes in the TFC locker room according to the Yorkies...

http://yorkies1812.blogspot.com/2011/07/starting-11-recent-changes-in-toronto.html



11. "Hello My Name Is..." tags
　
10. Dan Gargan and Ty Harden's permanently packed suitcases
　
9. A countdown clock over Julian de Guzman's locker
　
8. "Lonely Planet: Nicaragua" guidebooks
　
7. Stickers on Danny Koeverman's boots saying "Pass Ball Here"
　
6. Dicoy Williams and Ryan Johnson's new pirate radio station
　
5. Intercity bus & train schedules
　
4. Joao Plata walking around like he's 5 Foot Tall
　
3. Torsten Frings giant ghetto blaster pumping out the sounds of hardcore "Oompah-Pah" and David Hasselhoff music
　
2. Andy Iro keeps breathing life into dead mice
　
1. 25 Copies of book "What to Expect when you Expect to be Traded"


:lol:

[PopePouri]

The top 11 changes in the TFC locker room according to the Yorkies...

http://yorkies1812.blogspot.com/2011/07/starting-11-recent-changes-in-toronto.html



:lol:

LOL. The initial caption is epic.

http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/t/the_green_mile-10708.jpg
"Mr. Bojangles can partner me at CB boss"

[ManUtd4ever]

LOL, Andy Iro aka John Coffey. Maybe he can breathe some life into the backline...

[Empirical]

Why not sign a proven goal scorer like Taylor 'the twink' Twellman. (100+ mls goals).

[Gazza]

Why not sign a proven goal scorer like Taylor 'the twink' Twellman. (100+ mls goals).

I think his playing days are over. He's only good for eye-candy.

[jloome]

Why not sign a proven goal scorer like Taylor 'the twink' Twellman. (100+ mls goals).

Retired due to concussions, can't play medically or he still would be. He's only 31.

[jloome]

I'll leave the general point (it's been done to death), other than to say that, at the MLS level, it's simply not true that good players can't adjust to formations.

What prompts that notion? It's quite clear some of these guys can't, because they've publicly admitted it, including Peterson and Sturgis.

[bgnewf]

Good Luck Tony Tchani

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/07/good-luck-tony-tchani/

Why I think TFC supporters might regret the day that Tony Tchani left Toronto.

[trane]

Tchani and Nana are the two that I wish could have stuck around both young and with potential with MSL standards. Otherwise, its waite and see for me, although I hope to see much more roster stability going forward.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

although I hope to see much more roster stability going forward.

such a key thing to me.

[Alonso]

Tchani and Nana are the two that I wish could have stuck around both young and with potential with MSL standards. Otherwise, its waite and see for me, although I hope to see much more roster stability going forward.


Amen.

How are they supposed to play with 6 new teammates every 6 months?

[trane]

^ It is a bit ridicolous.

[ensco]

What prompts that notion? It's quite clear some of these guys can't, because they've publicly admitted it, including Peterson and Sturgis.

This formation stuff is overblown. It's beyond comical. It's as if it's a form of expressing superior football knowledge, to act like formation is everything. But really, it's just clouding our judgment.

It's bs when someone says "he's great (or I'm great) in a 4-4-2, but he should be traded (or I should be traded) if we're playing 4-3-3."

Good players, and good teams, move all over the field, and their teammates read and cover for them. That's the manager's job, to make sure everyone understands their responsibilities, that's where formation comes into it, but really, it's not the be all and end all in itself. Every team does it differently, sure, but all this parsing over whether someone's playing central mid or attacking mid is a crock.

Several people have seriously suggested above that Nana was traded because of the new system. Think about that for second. Think about how crazy that is. I could maybe accept this for wingers or strikers, whose roles are affected a bit by 4-4-2 vs 4-3-3, but even then, I doubt it matters much. We all thought Nana was untouchable last year. I don't know what happened to the guy, maybe he's a stiff now, but accepting that the 4-3-3 is why Nana can't play is nuts.

Why does it matter? It prevents us from seeing Nana's story as the tragedy that it is. Maybe it's not Winter's fault, but somehow now we don't even need to ask the question "what happened there"?

Peterson's comments, give me a break. As though "possession football" was something from Mars. It's football. It's about handling the ball in traffic, one touch control, weighting the through ball properly, tackling, marking, ballwinning, exploiting holes, not creating holes yourself, knowing where your teammates are and not hanging them out to dry. It's about making good decisions. In every system. I bet every championship team in every league, at every level, whatever the system they use, play good "possession football".

We listen too much uncritically to the stories we're told by team management. Sometimes they play it straight, sometimes they tell fairy tales. Sometimes the fairy tales work for the players too, so they parrot them. Doesn't mean we need to buy what they're selling.

Our two best young players are gone, for two players who have not played this year, and a striker who hasn't scored in 35 games. As I write this, only 4 out of 215 people don't like the trades.

I bleed TFC red as much as anybody here. I do understand.

We want to believe so badly, but we give our hearts, too cheaply.

[ManUtd4ever]

This formation stuff is overblown. It's beyond comical. It's as if it's a form of expressing superior football knowledge, to act like formation is everything. But really, it's just clouding our judgment.

It's bs when someone says "he's great (or I'm great) in a 4-4-2, but he should be traded (or I should be traded) if we're playing 4-3-3."

Good players, and good teams, move all over the field, and their teammates read and cover for them. That's the manager's job, to make sure everyone understands their responsibilities, that's where formation comes into it, but really, it's not the be all and end all in itself. Every team does it differently, sure, but all this parsing over whether someone's playing central mid or attacking mid is a crock.

Several people have seriously suggested above that Nana was traded because of the new system. Think about that for second. Think about how crazy that is. I could maybe accept this for wingers or strikers, whose roles are affected a bit by 4-4-2 vs 4-3-3, but even then, I doubt it matters much. We all thought Nana was untouchable last year. I don't know what happened to the guy, maybe he's a stiff now, but accepting that the 4-3-3 is why Nana can't play is nuts.

Why does it matter? It prevents us from seeing Nana's story as the tragedy that it is. Maybe it's not Winter's fault, but somehow now we don't even need to ask the question "what happened there"?

Peterson's comments, give me a break. As though "possession football" was something from Mars. It's football. It's about handling the ball in traffic, one touch control, weighting the through ball properly, tackling, marking, ballwinning, exploiting holes, not creating holes yourself, knowing where your teammates are and not hanging them out to dry. It's about making good decisions. In every system. I bet every championship team in every league, at every level, whatever the system they use, play good "possession football".

We listen too much uncritically to the stories we're told by team management. Sometimes they play it straight, sometimes they tell fairy tales. Sometimes the fairy tales work for the players too, so they parrot them. Doesn't mean we need to buy what they're selling.

Our two best young players are gone, for two players who have not played this year, and a striker who hasn't scored in 35 games. As I write this, only 4 out of 215 people don't like the trades.

I bleed TFC red as much as anybody here. I do understand.

We want to believe so badly, but we give our hearts, too cheaply.

Ensco, the general context of your post is valid.

Attakora and Tchani are players with definite upside, but for whatever reason, they both regressed playing in TFC's 4-3-3 system this season. Perhaps it was the formation and possession oriented approach that exposed their flaws, or perhaps there were external factors that influenced the deterioration in their level of play. In any case, Tchani and Attakora were unimpressive in the majority of their appearances, which is why they became expendable. Based on their limited appearances, the loss of Gordon and Peterson can also be considered negligible.

The question is, have Winter and Mariner strengthened the roster with acquisitions that comprise a stronger skillset and collective football pedigree than the players that have departed?

If so, the players that have been added to the roster will be more effective within TFC's 4-3-3 system, or any other formation for that matter, as your post suggests.

Hypothetically, our two young players with the most potential may be gone, but this season, they did not demonstrate the combination of acquired and innate skills that you articulated in describing what constitutes a competent footballer. Gordon and Peterson are oft injured, journeyman players that would rank as backup forwards on above average MLS squads in this regard.

In essence, TFC gave up two underachieving young players with upside and two veteran, injury prone, role players.

In return, TFC has acquired:

-Ryan Johnson, a 26 year old Jamaican International forward who had an impressive showing in the Gold Cup recently, played a vital role as Wondolowski's wingman, and is two years removed from team MVP honors. Johnson is a durable upgrade over the fragile Gordon as a backup CF, and he can adapt to the wing when necessary.

-Andy Iro, a physically imposing, 26 year old defender who was considered a starting CB on a fairly strong Columbus squad last season. A very capable, intimidating, replacement for Attakora, who was likely going to leave as a free agent anyway.

-Leandre Griffit, a 27 year old experienced winger with speed and crossing ability that saw limited playing time as a result of injuries this season. At worst, he should still represent an upgrade over Jacob Peterson, who was terribly overpaid.

-Terry Dunfield, a 29 year old defensive midfielder with tenacity and character. Dunfield is a proven veteran that will be able to replace Tchani's presence in the midfield in the short term.

I'm not giving my heart cheaply. I'm objectively analyzing the potential benefits and consequences of recent transactions. I have been critical of TFC roster moves in the past, but in this case, I think the ends will jusify the means.

[Beach_Red]

^ Right now it looks like the team is better - more experienced players, for sure.

So, the question is, has the team changed its philosophy since the start of the season?

[ManUtd4ever]

^ Right now it looks like the team is better - more experienced players, for sure.

So, the question is, has the team changed its philosophy since the start of the season?

Absolutely. The new regime still believes that the youth developed from the Academy, and to a lesser degree, the NCAA Draft, are the future of this club. However, calculated risks were taken in trying to accelerate the rebuilding process and provide immediate results in the interim. In light of the recent DP signings, it makes sense to try and provide them with the right supporting cast; a group that is capable of producing results while Frings and Koevermans are part of the nucleus of the club.

[ensco]

I think evaluating Tchani based on his play over a dozen games for a terrible team is a mistake.

I accept that Nana's value is severely diminished. I have no idea how anyone could have an independent view of Nana's game in 2011 given his limited minutes. I also think the question "what actually happened with Nana" is important, and is being ignored.

[Beach_Red]

^ What happened is a good question, not just to Nana but to the whole new direction were sold at the Town Halls. I suppose it doesn't really matter as long as the team starts winning.

[Roogsy]

This formation stuff is overblown. It's beyond comical. It's as if it's a form of expressing superior football knowledge, to act like formation is everything. But really, it's just clouding our judgment.

It's bs when someone says "he's great (or I'm great) in a 4-4-2, but he should be traded (or I should be traded) if we're playing 4-3-3."

Good players, and good teams, move all over the field, and their teammates read and cover for them. That's the manager's job, to make sure everyone understands their responsibilities, that's where formation comes into it, but really, it's not the be all and end all in itself. Every team does it differently, sure, but all this parsing over whether someone's playing central mid or attacking mid is a crock.

Several people have seriously suggested above that Nana was traded because of the new system. Think about that for second. Think about how crazy that is. I could maybe accept this for wingers or strikers, whose roles are affected a bit by 4-4-2 vs 4-3-3, but even then, I doubt it matters much. We all thought Nana was untouchable last year. I don't know what happened to the guy, maybe he's a stiff now, but accepting that the 4-3-3 is why Nana can't play is nuts.

Why does it matter? It prevents us from seeing Nana's story as the tragedy that it is. Maybe it's not Winter's fault, but somehow now we don't even need to ask the question "what happened there"?

Peterson's comments, give me a break. As though "possession football" was something from Mars. It's football. It's about handling the ball in traffic, one touch control, weighting the through ball properly, tackling, marking, ballwinning, exploiting holes, not creating holes yourself, knowing where your teammates are and not hanging them out to dry. It's about making good decisions. In every system. I bet every championship team in every league, at every level, whatever the system they use, play good "possession football".

We listen too much uncritically to the stories we're told by team management. Sometimes they play it straight, sometimes they tell fairy tales. Sometimes the fairy tales work for the players too, so they parrot them. Doesn't mean we need to buy what they're selling.

Our two best young players are gone, for two players who have not played this year, and a striker who hasn't scored in 35 games. As I write this, only 4 out of 215 people don't like the trades.

I bleed TFC red as much as anybody here. I do understand.

We want to believe so badly, but we give our hearts, too cheaply.

If I could, I'd put this in my signature.

[CSO_BBTB]

I accept that Nana's value is severely diminished. I have no idea how anyone could have an independent view of Nana's game in 2011 given his limited minutes. I also think the question "what actually happened with Nana" is important, and is being ignored.

He wouldn't be the first young player to believe media hype about him and lose his way if as rumoured his attitude wasn't right because he thinks he's ready for a big money contract in a top European league. Beyond that is it really so hard to believe that there could be a significant difference between what Mo Johnston and Aron Winter look for in a centre back? I seriously doubt that Winter would have used a 9th overall pick in the 2008 superdraft to select Julius James and suspect that he may also have taken Omar Gonzalez rather than Sam Cronin second overall in 2009. Not sure what to make of the fact that James was keeping Iro out of the starting lineup in Columbus, but there seems to have been a falling out between player and coach there as well.

[Shakes McQueen]

^ Right now it looks like the team is better - more experienced players, for sure.

So, the question is, has the team changed its philosophy since the start of the season?

It's hard to know. Maybe the team planned to flip Tchani for something else all along.

Trading Peterson and Nana doesn't really signal anything from a philosophy perspective, because those weren't Winter guys to begin with. Gordon was tremendously injury prone in his short time here, so again, flipping him may have simply been the pragmatic thing to do.

I think we are extrapolating a bit too much from trading Tchani. Iro and Griffit aren't in their 30's.

Despite the "building process" of Winter, I never thought the plan was to do an NHL-style rebuild with young draft talent. I thought Winter would take time to identify and sign the pieces he wanted for his team, and his system, whatever their ages. Getting there through trades isn't always a straight line.

We traded a young player with rough edges who was surplus to our needs, to help fill a different hole in our lineup. That's just pragmatism.

- Scott

[ensco]

He wouldn't be the first young player to believe media hype about him and lose his way if as rumoured his attitude wasn't right because he thinks he's ready for a big money contract in a top European league. Beyond that is it really so hard to believe that there could be a significant difference between what Mo Johnston and Aron Winter look for in a centre back? .

Thank you for including something I forgot: The example I meant to put in about why we have to be skeptical about what we "hear" about the team. My answer to your question: I think that's a fairy tale, I don't believe what happened relates to Nana's attitude.

Here's my "wouldn't this be reasonable" rumour for you: all Nana ever did was hold off on signing until he saw how things were going under WinterMariner. Winter, neck deep already in the Dero mess from day one, decided that this was evidence of a broader "Canadian entitlement problem" and decided to show who is boss by bullying Nana (and Cann). imho, based on what we know about both those players situations, both were treated unfairly/harshly by the club, for taking reasonable commercial positions towards the club.

As to "wanting something different in a CB", look, is he a good, hard working soccer player or isn't he? I saw him a lot with my own eyes, and I say he is. Trading guys to get precisely "the right fit" is how you wind up with 125 players in 5 years. Young assets are scarce in this league. No manager has the group he wants precisely. Did Winter really try to help him be better, or fill whatever gaps he has?

I realize he may leave. But if he signs with MLS next year, WinterMariner have serious egg on their faces.

[Shakes McQueen]

Our two best young players are gone, for two players who have not played this year, and a striker who hasn't scored in 35 games. As I write this, only 4 out of 215 people don't like the trades.

It is worth noting that the poll question is only if you think the trades have improved the team. Considering how poorly the team was playing, that isn't a high bar to vault over.

When you also consider that we traded away two players who rarely played this season, one player nobody liked, and a young player who wasn't paying immediate dividends, it's not that far-fetched or illogical to reach the conclusion that the team was made immediately better by these trades.

The rest of your post I generally agree with, though I think coaching has it's limitations in making sure everyone understands and carries out their responsibilities. The footy IQ of the players is a major factor as well.

- Scott

[Oldtimer]

I'm not sure that Nana's position was quite as innocent as some are making it out to be. It's actually similar to the Academy player who refused to sign a long-term development deal with the club.

It looked suspiciously like Nana was considering trying his luck on the overseas market. Whether that is true or not, it would be totally reasonable for Mariner to conclude that. Trying to get something for him now is totally reasonable. Maybe his new club thinks they can convince him to stay in MLS.

As far as 4-3-3, I don't believe that the formation has that much to do with keeping or moving players. Rather, the more technical game that the team is moving towards demands a different type of player. That player is not the typical youth who grew up playing on rep teams through to NCAA, but there are enough of them around that you can make up a team right now.

Long-term, the academy is trying to develop more technical players. It looks like Danny Dichio, despite the image of English football, is well suited to teach a more technical side. In his own playing, he combined technical skill (some of the goals he made showed that very well) with physicality. That is actually the ideal way to integrate a technical style within MLS:

T-NfJCveHdA

The final goal especially (starting at 4:30) shows both those factors.

[menefreghista]

It looked suspiciously like Nana was considering trying his luck on the overseas market. Whether that is true or not, it would be totally reasonable for Mariner to conclude that. Trying to get something for him now is totally reasonable. Maybe his new club thinks they can convince him to stay in MLS.

The problem with this theory is that we know Nana was willing to sign a shorter term deal, but the club insisted on a 4 year deal (and that was probably the MLS classic 2 years + 2 option years).

It was only after Winter froze him out that Nana refused to sign any contract.

[Oldtimer]

The problem with this theory is that we know Nana was willing to sign a shorter term deal, but the club insisted on a 4 year deal (and that was probably the MLS classic 2 years + 2 option years).

It was only after Winter froze him out that Nana refused to sign any contract.

True, he was willing to do a short-term deal, and the question that would be raised is why? I can see two reasonable options:

(1) He thinks that his value in MLS is going to go up.
(2) He thinks that when he is a little older, he can get some interest overseas.

It's the second possibility that would particularly make Mariner take stock.

[menefreghista]

True, he was willing to do a short-term deal, and the question that would be raised is why?

We can't know for sure, but considering the history of this club, who could blame him?

As it stands now, Nana can sign anywhere in the world for free. But considering that he hasn't yet, I bet he signs the short term deal he wanted with San Jose.

[billyfly]

Dunlevy on the Fan just said he knows for a fact that the trading and player acquisition is not done.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

curious to see how quickly it comes

[Beach_Red]

True, he was willing to do a short-term deal, and the question that would be raised is why? I can see two reasonable options:

(1) He thinks that his value in MLS is going to go up.
(2) He thinks that when he is a little older, he can get some interest overseas.

It's the second possibility that would particularly make Mariner take stock.

It's a very small target to hit - the young player who will be good in MLS but not so good he wants to play in a higher league.

But hey, even Mariner left MLS for a higher league and then came back, so he should understand.

[ManUtd4ever]

It is worth noting that the poll question is only if you think the trades have improved the team. Considering how poorly the team was playing, that isn't a high bar to vault over.

When you also consider that we traded away two players who rarely played this season, one player nobody liked, and a young player who wasn't paying immediate dividends, it's not that far-fetched or illogical to reach the conclusion that the team was made immediately better by these trades.

The rest of your post I generally agree with, though I think coaching has it's limitations in making sure everyone understands and carries out their responsibilities. The footy IQ of the players is a major factor as well.

- Scott

Precisely.

[jloome]

This formation stuff is overblown. It's beyond comical. It's as if it's a form of expressing superior football knowledge, to act like formation is everything. But really, it's just clouding our judgment.

It's bs when someone says "he's great (or I'm great) in a 4-4-2, but he should be traded (or I should be traded) if we're playing 4-3-3."

Good players, and good teams, move all over the field, and their teammates read and cover for them. That's the manager's job, to make sure everyone understands their responsibilities, that's where formation comes into it, but really, it's not the be all and end all in itself. Every team does it differently, sure, but all this parsing over whether someone's playing central mid or attacking mid is a crock.

Several people have seriously suggested above that Nana was traded because of the new system. Think about that for second. Think about how crazy that is. I could maybe accept this for wingers or strikers, whose roles are affected a bit by 4-4-2 vs 4-3-3, but even then, I doubt it matters much. We all thought Nana was untouchable last year. I don't know what happened to the guy, maybe he's a stiff now, but accepting that the 4-3-3 is why Nana can't play is nuts.

Why does it matter? It prevents us from seeing Nana's story as the tragedy that it is. Maybe it's not Winter's fault, but somehow now we don't even need to ask the question "what happened there"?

Peterson's comments, give me a break. As though "possession football" was something from Mars. It's football. It's about handling the ball in traffic, one touch control, weighting the through ball properly, tackling, marking, ballwinning, exploiting holes, not creating holes yourself, knowing where your teammates are and not hanging them out to dry. It's about making good decisions. In every system. I bet every championship team in every league, at every level, whatever the system they use, play good "possession football".

We listen too much uncritically to the stories we're told by team management. Sometimes they play it straight, sometimes they tell fairy tales. Sometimes the fairy tales work for the players too, so they parrot them. Doesn't mean we need to buy what they're selling.

Our two best young players are gone, for two players who have not played this year, and a striker who hasn't scored in 35 games. As I write this, only 4 out of 215 people don't like the trades.

I bleed TFC red as much as anybody here. I do understand.

We want to believe so badly, but we give our hearts, too cheaply.

While there are points in here I find valid, relative to Nana, and while it is eloquently stated, this is not the case.

Positioning off the ball and movement off the ball changes dramatically based on tactical approach. No soccer player understands or knows them all instrinsically. Formation and knowledge of where to be when the man on the ball can't even see you is paramount, it's behind the entire concept of maintaining "shape", which has always been one of TFC's problems.

Yes, that is reliant on bringing in the right players. But the right players do not automatically know and adopt a system by instinctively "filling in" or simply "covering" for teammates as you suggest. And the game is moving too fast for players to generally adopt to more than one or two tactical approaches at one time.

I respect the passion Ensco but this isn't reality. What you're describing is schoolboy football, and if players actually adapted and adopted that freely at the professional level, their shape would be incredibly loose and they'd get cut to ribbons -- which, given that the 433 IS pretty much the most adaptive system, is exactly what has been happening to us.

We're not just losing because we have the wrong players. We're losing because there's no team disclipline yet in maintaining shape for more than 20 minutes a game.

[Technorgasm]

13 games left.
39 available points.

we sit here with 18 points, best mathamatical finish is 57 points.
Typically you need 35-40 points for post-season ball.

so . . . are these players enough to secure play offs?
I say next year, but welcome to our new lads and good luck out there.

we are behind you 100%

[Roogsy]

13 games left.
39 available points.

we sit here with 18 points, best mathamatical finish is 57 points.
Typically you need 35-40 points for post-season ball.

so . . . are these players enough to secure play offs?
I say next year, but welcome to our new lads and good luck out there.

we are behind you 100%


Actually, with the expanded 34 game season, the estimate is that we'd need 43 points for post-season action.

[ensco]

jloome, re "schoolboy" football, nothing in what I said is about discipline. Every team needs discipline, and time to gel, whatever system they play.

If you saying that certain players can only play in certain systems, we will agree to disagree

[ryan]

Actually, with the expanded 34 game season, the estimate is that we'd need 43 points for post-season action.

Does your estimate also factor in the additional 2 playoff berths?


With the ungodly (and very gambler friendly) trend of draws in MLS, I'm not so sure things will change too much from start to finish. I'd wager 40-41 at most.

[menefreghista]

Does your estimate also factor in the additional 2 playoff berths?

Currently the 10th best team in the league is on pace for 41 points. So you figure over 42 points are needed. And possibly more if more teams start winning instead of all these ties.

So TFC will need about 24+ points in 13 games. That's the kind of pace the current league leaders are on.

[ryan]

Currently the 10th best team in the league is on pace for 41 points. So you figure over 42 points are needed. And possibly more if more teams start winning instead of all these ties.

So TFC will need about 24+ points in 13 games. That's the kind of pace the current league leaders are on.

If someone wins, someone else loses. So if NY/LA/SEA start winning vs mid table teams, the projected playoff total should lower. As long as Chivas/HOU/SJ keep drawing, then pace should keep.

Speaking of TFC specifically, for them to make the playoff requires wins vs those mid table clubs in playoff spots. If we're gaining points and they aren't due to us winning, that should make the 40-41 mark a viable squeeker into 10th.

[menefreghista]

If someone wins, someone else loses. So if NY/LA/SEA start winning vs mid table teams, the projected playoff total should lower. As long as Chivas/HOU/SJ keep drawing, then pace should keep.

Speaking of TFC specifically, for them to make the playoff requires wins vs those mid table clubs in playoff spots. If we're gaining points and they aren't due to us winning, that should make the 40-41 mark a viable squeeker into 10th.

That's why I think the best projection is based on points per game pace.

As for TFC's chances, its all about getting 7 or 8 wins plus ties. That's what is needed.

[Roogsy]

If someone wins, someone else loses. So if NY/LA/SEA start winning vs mid table teams, the projected playoff total should lower. As long as Chivas/HOU/SJ keep drawing, then pace should keep.

Speaking of TFC specifically, for them to make the playoff requires wins vs those mid table clubs in playoff spots. If we're gaining points and they aren't due to us winning, that should make the 40-41 mark a viable squeeker into 10th.


If you are not the team with the worst goal differential, perhaps. But that is not the case. Toronto needs an extra point ahead of the 6 teams in front of us just because of our extremely poor goal diff. The likelihood that all teams in front of us slow down is not good, one might, others might increase the record. Which means the current clip of 1.2 points per game is bare minimum to get into the playoffs. That works out to 41 points IF you have a favourable goal diff. Which means TFC needs 42 points minimum to get in, and with all likelihood, 43 to make it more secure.

That's minimum 24 points out of the remaining 13 games, but more than likely 25 if there is a dogfight for that last spot among the competing teams.

[Section 117]

Further to Jloome's point. Systems are predicated on the players you have at your disposal. Look at Barcelona they play a 4-3-3. Argentina tried a similar set up with their team and it didn't work you need the right pieces and the understanding that players will be where they are suppose to be.

On giving up the potential of what Nana and Tchani can be, IMO their biggest problem is they have no concept on how to passa ball. Yes they are athletic, but at the end of the day you can find other players that are just as athletic. Having a soccer IQ is something that IMO can not be taught. If you watched Tchani play everytime he had the ball he did one of two things: a pass that was uncontrollable or held on too long and gave up possession. Nana is a decent defender, but at his age if you need to teach him how to pass a ball that is not a good sign. He will never amount to more than a bench player on another MLS player and he is definitely no CMNT material.

To play a possession style game regardless of the formation your spine is. GK, CB, CM need to be a comfortable with the ball on their feet and need to be able to make the right pass and control the game. The two young guys we gave up don't reall fit with that. Also, at that age IMO they are not consider to be prospects because either you can play and contribute or you will lean on the tag of potential.

One last thing I trust the judgment of the FO as they could probably pick out a player after watching them for 5 minutes and have more knowledge and understanding of the small intricacies of what a player should be then any of us. This trade looks short term due to the ages of the players, but IMO it will help both short and long if teh culture of team has changed because the players that have been here have a sense of entitlement or kind of like what Burke is doing with the Leafs

[ensco]

On giving up the potential of what Nana and Tchani can be, IMO their biggest problem is they have no concept on how to passa ball. Yes they are athletic, but at the end of the day you can find other players that are just as athletic. Having a soccer IQ is something that IMO can not be taught. If you watched Tchani play everytime he had the ball he did one of two things: a pass that was uncontrollable or held on too long and gave up possession. Nana is a decent defender, but at his age if you need to teach him how to pass a ball that is not a good sign. He will never amount to more than a bench player on another MLS player and he is definitely no CMNT material.

.......

One last thing I trust the judgment of the FO as they could probably pick out a player after watching them for 5 minutes and have more knowledge and understanding of the small intricacies of what a player should be then any of us. This trade looks short term due to the ages of the players, but IMO it will help both short and long if teh culture of team has changed because the players that have been here have a sense of entitlement or kind of like what Burke is doing with the Leafs

At the risk of repeating myself, evaluating Tchani based on less than half a season on a terrible team is a mistake. He came in without benefit of training camp, and we've had no onfield discipline at all, with lots of players running all over the place....no wonder he doesn't know where to go with the ball! He looked composed as a rookie in NY, he just lost his job to a terrific veteran player (Tainio), that's all.

Where is this "Nana can't pass" stuff coming from? I don't remember ever thinking it, I don't remember ever reading it here, but somehow it's become gospel (just because TFC personnel were whispering it this year, I guess). Nana may not be god's gift to the soccer profession, but I dislike this endless running down of the guy for things we didn't actually see on the field. Harden deserves grief for his passing, Nana doesn't.

I don't love what Burke is doing either, btw, that example does nothing for me. He's a self-aggrandizing blowhard making many of the same mistakes the TFC FO is.

[ManUtd4ever]

Ensco, I agree that Attakora and Tchani's abilities cannot necessarily be measured based solely on their performances this season. It is entirely possible that they will both eventually develop into solid starters with a change of scenery, as both players acquitted themselves well last season playing under different circumstances with other management/coaching regimes.

However, why can't the same logical reasoning be applied to evaluate the incoming players?



Our two best young players are gone, for two players who have not played this year, and a striker who hasn't scored in 35 games.


It is interesting to note that your abrupt analysis of TFC management's recent acquistions does not account for the possibility that Johnson, Iro, and Griffit may benefit from expanded roles in a new environment. In fact, Johnson and Iro in particular have had a far greater impact in recent years with their respective clubs than Tchani and Nana, and they are still relatively young players in their own right. Johnson is two years removed from team MVP honors with San Jose in which he led his team in scoring. Last season, he was shifted to the wing and led the team in assists. Iro was a fixture in the central defence for a talented Columbus squad the last 2 years, and he was voted their team MVP last season. His role diminished this season under a new coach. Sound familiar?

I understand your point regarding Tchani and Nana's potential, but I think it's entirely reasonable to suggest that TFC recieved more than an equitable return for those assets.

[ensco]

^This may be true. Or I may be right to think that these guys coming in, may not amount to much. Who knows?

I expected WinterMariner to make their mark by signing non-DPs (that's where Tainio came from), and by teaching. That's what they were pitched as. The DP moves, that's MLSE there.

We finally get to the international transfer date, and we dump what youth we have for veterans with question marks who aren't playing? In a rebuilding situation?

They haven't done much to convince me that they have an edge in finding players or teaching, based on what we've seen on the field and with these moves.

[menefreghista]

That's what they were pitched as. They haven't done much to convince me that they have an edge in these areas, based on what we've seen on the field and with these moves.

These moves kind of have a Mo Johnston feel to them.

[ManUtd4ever]

This may be true. Or I may be right to think that these guys coming in, may not amount to much. Who knows?

Based on the history of all the players involved, there is ample evidence to suggest that they could all excel with their new clubs. Time will tell.


I expected Winter Mariner to make their mark by signing non-DPs (that's where Tainio came from), and by teaching. That's what they were pitched as. The DP moves, that's MLSE there.

Basic football fundamentals can be taught, but I believe certain abilities such as reading the play, making quick decisions, and effective ball distribution are innate qualities that were lacking in Tchani and Nana this season. Tchani has never been adept in that regard, which is why he was widely acknowledged as a raw prospect when he was traded to Toronto. Nana was solid the last two seasons, but he has never been asked to play possession oriented football during his tenure with TFC, which is likely one of the primary reasons why his play regressed.



We finally get to the international transfer date, and we dump what youth we have for veterans with question marks who aren't playing? In a rebuilding situation?


Once again, you're using a short sighted approach in evaluating Johnson, Iro, and Griffit, based on this season alone. If supporters of Columbus and San Jose were to evaluate the players their clubs acquired based on that logic, then the likes of Tchani, Nana, Gordon, and Peterson don't seem to constitute a solid return at all. Furthermore, the age difference among the players involved is not substantial.


They haven't done much to convince me that they have an edge in finding players or teaching, based on what we've seen on the field and with these moves.

I completely disagree. You're judging Winter and Mariner based on a timeframe of one shortened off season, and one week of their first transfer window.

Nonetheless...

Plata
Eckersley
Frings
Koevermans
Johnson
Dunfield
Iro

The players listed above have all been acquired by the new regime, and based on their collective skillset and overall football acumen, I believe they will have a significant impact within the starting lineup in the immediate future.

As for the other acquisitions of the new regime, I think the likes of Martina, Soolsma, Yourassowsky, Williams, Borman, Zavarise, and Griffit have played well enough in the past to suggest that they would be more than adequate in a reserve role.

[Beach_Red]

These moves kind of have a Mo Johnston feel to them.


Let's say they have an MLS feel to them ;). The skill level of many MLS players is pretty much the same so finding the right chemistry is a big deal. A big part of that is probably finding players who accept their level and certainly by their mid to late twenties guys in MLS are probably here for the duration. Add an over 30 guy (or two) and some kids and that's an MLS roster.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I dont think Mo would have filled the cracks that need filling.
Also he would have immediately offered them some ridiculous salary.

[Shakes McQueen]

Mo would have signed us 37 central midfielders, and promised them all $400k a year, then once they got to Toronto, spit on them and told them the fine print actually said they get $50k and a velvet bag of marbles.

And our two new DPS would be the Bushwhackers.

- Scott

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Mo would have signed us 37 central midfielders, and promised them all $400k a year, then once they got to Toronto, spit on them and told them the fine print actually said they get $50k and a velvet bag of marbles.

And our two new DPS would be the Bushwhackers.

- Scott

also Paul Dickov

[Shakes McQueen]

No, it would turn out Dickov used us as leverage in his negotiations to get a sweet new contract with Stockport County.

- Scott

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Touche

[Section 117]

Ensco I have called out Nana for his lack of passing ability since he started and I got called out many times for that. If you go back and watch tape he rarely makes the correct pass and he usually just hoofs the ball down the field. So if you call that talent then sure he has it spades. You can't be teaching player basic skills when they are suppose to be professionals. I think he got hyped cause he is from here, because if he was from somewhere else there is no way we would have put up with his atrocious passing

How many games should it take to see if a player has skills? A year? Two possibly. Tchani is very athletic and can break up plays, but that is not enough. Regardless of how many games he played with us you can tell if he has soccer IQ. I think he is vastly overrated like many of the kids coming through the college ranks. You have to remeber by the time they graduate college or even go to college they licked up so many bad habits that can't be broken. He is will end up being an average defensive midfielder IMO.

The age difference is as much as you think minus Dunfield so if the coaching staff believes they can help us now and moving forward why not give them that chance? How do you know it is not going to work out? Maybe the players we brought in need a change of scenery. Iro has been a starter for a team that has made the playoffs and had a falling out with his coach This is now Winter's team I expect a lot more now then I did before.

[ensco]

117, if you said that before, mea culpa.

There's truth to the point that he was overrated. He was never going to Europe. But I think now he's being underrated.

As to the rest, none of us know. Cheers.

[GeorgeBest]

These trades remind me of the Marvell Wynne trade. A lot of the same criticisms that are being levelled at Nana and Tchani were routinely levelled at Wynne.

After he left, Wynne went on to start 27 games and all 4 playoff games for the MLS Cup champion. Colorado thought enough of him to give him a big multi-year contract.

Tchani and Nana aren't perfect players, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them going on to have success similar to Marvell in the next few years.

I would like to see TFC hold on to some of these good young players instead of trading them away.

[Auzzy]

^ Yeah better coaches should have been able to get better things out of Wynne, and the criticism against Wynne was sometimes excessive IMHO. (As so often around here -- we'll go ballistic on one player for a while, even if the whole team is mostly playing shit.) It was also a typical Preki trade, who wanted a mostly stay-at-home defense to grind out the games.

But then again, we also got Nick LaBrocca for Wynne. One of them is now an MLS all-star, and the other isn't. Plus we got a 2011 third round draft pick -- I guess we got Efrain Burgos for that, too bad he didn't work out.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Im not sorry to have lost either one of them

[jloome]

These trades remind me of the Marvell Wynne trade. A lot of the same criticisms that are being levelled at Nana and Tchani were routinely levelled at Wynne.

After he left, Wynne went on to start 27 games and all 4 playoff games for the MLS Cup champion. Colorado thought enough of him to give him a big multi-year contract.

Tchani and Nana aren't perfect players, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them going on to have success similar to Marvell in the next few years.

I would like to see TFC hold on to some of these good young players instead of trading them away.

Wynne was heavily overhyped last year. Started strong at CB but had plenty of disaster games too, and was definitely Colorado's weakest backline link. This year he's been shaky several times.

[GeorgeBest]

But then again, we also got Nick LaBrocca for Wynne. One of them is now an MLS all-star, and the other isn't.

Fair point, but ...

Labrocca, we traded for Gordon....

Who we traded (with Nana and Peterson) for Johnson.....

Who we traded for........... (if he keeps up his current strike rate).

It's a revolving door of MLS journeyman. Why not develop and keep good young guys. Marvell and Nana could have been the right side of our back 4 for years, if developed properly.

Given the salary cap, I think Winter is going to have a lot of trouble getting CB's who are highly skilled on the ball and great passers as well as good tacklers. Those guys cost a lot of money.

[GeorgeBest]

Wynne was heavily overhyped last year. Started strong at CB but had plenty of disaster games too, and was definitely Colorado's weakest backline link. This year he's been shaky several times.

That's your opinion which I respect. Colorado's management clearly didn't share that opinion because they signed him to a new deal at $300K all in per year.

[Beach_Red]

That's your opinion which I respect. Colorado's management clearly didn't share that opinion because they signed him to a new deal at $300K all in per year.

Getting the most out of players like Wynne is the key to success in MLS. As long as there's a domestic quota and a salary cap every team will have players like that on the roster.

[123 elite]

I completely disagree. You're judging Winter and Mariner based on a timeframe of one shortened off season, and one week of their first transfer window.

Nonetheless...

Plata
Eckersley
Frings
Koevermans
Johnson
Dunfield
Iro

The players listed above have all been acquired by the new regime, and based on their collective skillset and overall football acumen, I believe they will have a significant impact within the starting lineup in the immediate future.



Plata not bad but raw so far
Eckersley pretty good so far
Frings Not played yet
Koevermans Not played yet
Johnson Not played yet
Dunfield Not played yet
Iro Not played yet

what about

Gordon ...in and out in a few months
Tchani ..... in and out in a few months
Stefanovic .... no impact and gone
Martina.... one good game
Yourass.... i've got nothing
Soolsma, sturgis... etc etc i cant even keep up anymore

HOw can you form an opinion on what he's brought in when 5/7 you name as quality have yet to play. The legions of players that have been here so far have got us nicely anchored to the bottom. Isn't that a better measure of what the management have done

[Roogsy]

My position on Winter has been clear. Yes he did have "less" but if we're all honest, he wasn't able to get much out of what he had, as little as it was. Not encouraging.

Now let's hope he can get "more" now that he has "more". Which should be easier. Expectations should be high now. If they're not, its evidence of pretty much accepting anything served up by MLSE.

[ManUtd4ever]

HOw can you form an opinion on what he's brought in when 5/7 you name as quality have yet to play. The legions of players that have been here so far have got us nicely anchored to the bottom. Isn't that a better measure of what the management have done

I can form an opinion of the players that have yet to play for TFC based on their careers. Frings, Koevermans, Johnson, Iro, and Dunfield are certainly not unknown commodities in the world of football or MLS. Their individual pedigrees suggest that they are capable of making an impact with the first team.

As for the legions of players that have been here in the past, I don't see how the modus operandi of the Mo Johnston era relates to evaluating the new management regime. I was specifically referring to the players that have been acquired by Winter and Mariner during their brief tenures thus far, in response to the previous suggestion that they have been incapable of finding talented players. I believe there is ample evidence to suggest otherwise, which I've outlined in detail in my previous posts.

[123 elite]

^

i was referring to this years legions of players not past years. I am sure that on paper they are capable of making an impact on this team because really it would be hard to make it any worse. But IMHO is doesn't matter the reputation of the players. What matters is what they are being brought into. I have not seen Winter and co do anything that has resulted in anything positive at all on the field this year. I have seen players one week playing right back then centre back then winger and then shipped. I have seen players unable to pass the ball, move for the ball or actually even get it out of their half and retain possession for anything approaching a minute. I don't think this is because they are absolute rubbish. I think its because they do not really know what is going on because there really isn't a plan or a system or a 433 or whatever its title is this week. This is what these new players are being brought into. Why would i think they would make a massive change. Another 5 or 6 guys that haven't played with each other or anyone else on the team is what it is at this stage yet i am reading on these posts the possible points requirement for the playoffs. I just don't understand that. Who exactly are we capable of getting any points from ? Are they all suddenly going to get worse now that we have got a couple of DPs?

I watched Liverpool under Hodgson, and celtic under Barnes and also Celtic under Mowbray. Those teams were virtually unchanged after new managers took over and the difference in results and confidence spoke volumes about where the problems lay. After 4 and a bit months of watching what is clearly the worst TFC team yet I think i am seeing the same thing. I hope i'm wrong.

[ManUtd4ever]

My point was that I think Winter now has more talented players at his disposal as a result of all the recent transactions. I agree that the results from this point forward will be a true test of his coaching abilities.

[Roogsy]

How he did with less talent is also a test of his abilities. Let's hope his abilities are skewed towards more talented players because obviously he can't work with less.

[CSO_BBTB]

...I watched Liverpool under Hodgson, and celtic under Barnes and also Celtic under Mowbray. Those teams were virtually unchanged after new managers took over and the difference in results and confidence spoke volumes about where the problems lay.....

...so basically let's all have a carpark demonstration and get the guy ousted then everything will go back to normal and we can go back to drawing some sort of feeling of superiority from the fact that the team routinely beats those fielded by rival clubs with much smaller salary budgets. If you had supported Morton instead of Celtic you would probably have more of a concept of what supporting a team like TFC (that can't expect to win the lion's share of its league games by blowing most of its rivals out of the water financially season after season) is liable to entail sometimes in terms of short term pain in the hope of long term gain.

[123 elite]

^
entirely irrelevant point. However perhaps i should have written observed rather than watched. I have never actually been to a Liverpool game. I mentioned those three because they came to mind as teams with style/good players/bad manager/bad results/turnaround on manager quitting. There are probably a lot more examples (Rangers/Le Guen/ McLeish) just couldn't remember any more. If you are going to make a point about the financial strength of TFC compared to the rest of the MLS perhaps you haven't noticed who owns TFC. With that kind of muscle behind it i at least expect them not to get trounced 6-2 by an 2nd year expansion team or 5-0 by any team. I am certainly not going to use loyalty to crap as some kind of badge of honour especially when its super rich parent company wants to fleece me for every penny i've got in any way that it can. But hey enjoy your short term pain. Its 5 years short at the moment.

[mightydrm]

I still can't believe the negativity on these boards. the same people who have been calling out the team's players are now complaining about a strong effort to turn it around - Frings has the best pedigree of any player we have ever had and will be very respected by players around the world. Maybe they will fail, but it won't be for want of trying. And for those calling for Winters head, I seem to recall you calling for Mo's head etc etc. Sir Alex isn't available, sorry, nor is Rooney. But Iro etc are. isn't it "All for One"??? 3-1 TFC with Griffits the star.

[Shakes McQueen]

I still can't believe the negativity on these boards. the same people who have been calling out the team's players are now complaining about a strong effort to turn it around - Frings has the best pedigree of any player we have ever had and will be very respected by players around the world. Maybe they will fail, but it won't be for want of trying. And for those calling for Winters head, I seem to recall you calling for Mo's head etc etc. Sir Alex isn't available, sorry, nor is Rooney. But Iro etc are. isn't it "All for One"??? 3-1 TFC with Griffits the star.

Griffits is injured.

- Scott

[ag futbol]

Griffits is injured.

- Scott
Are we sure about this?

From what I gathered yesterday was that he practiced and Winter only excluded Dunfield from today's game with JDG as a maybe.

[whyalwaysme11]

that sure was a nice cross from peterson last night to set-up the second goal against the shitecaps... i still like him.

[backbeat]

that sure was a nice cross from peterson last night to set-up the second goal against the shitecaps... i still like him.

SJEQ: How was your time in Toronto and what was your favorite part about Canada?
Jacob Peterson: I really didn’t like the city too much. I don’t think that’s a secret to anybody who knows me well, but it was overall a pretty good experience.

buh-bye

[Azerban]

And for those calling for Winters head, I seem to recall you calling for Mo's head etc etc.

a scathing indictment of common sense and good decisions

[__wowza]

the thing that impressed me the most is the furious attacking. we spend a good 25 minutes completely on the attack ferocity is the word i would use for it. we attacked with purpose without pushing our entire team upfield until the last 5 + injury.