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Ossington Mental Youth
07-14-2011, 10:10 PM
There is no paperwork. Aleman never signed his agreement with TFC. I believe that he is a totally free agent.

outside of being bitter with TFC, dunno what advantage he'd have signing with Vancouver, cept i spose they send players on loan sometimes

phonzo
07-14-2011, 10:27 PM
So overall it seems Winter gave the young folks all a shot. It didn't work now he's making moves after learning the league. Here's to hoping the older folks can teach the up and comers

Heathen
07-14-2011, 10:27 PM
Happy with Johnson, wait and see with Dunfield. Sad to see Gordon go, Nana was always overrated

menefreghista
07-14-2011, 10:31 PM
outside of being bitter with TFC, dunno what advantage he'd have signing with Vancouver, cept i spose they send players on loan sometimes

The advantage would be if Vancouver signed him to an actual paying contract and put him on the full team roster.

TFC was only trying to get him to lock in his rights.

tfcocd
07-14-2011, 10:33 PM
So backline for WED still --Gargan----Eck--Harden----Borman-- .... desperately need more depth in the back!

Heathen
07-14-2011, 10:38 PM
So backline for WED still --Gargan----Eck--Harden----Borman-- .... desperately need more depth in the back!

Maybe Winter's given up on defence and he's doing a Keegan, either we win 4-3 or lose 4-3

CSO_BBTB
07-14-2011, 10:39 PM
There is no paperwork. Aleman never signed his agreement with TFC. I believe that he is a totally free agent.

He's from TFC's protected 75 mile (?) territory in MLS Academy system terms so probably needs TFC's permission to hook up with another Canadian MLS team at the academy team level. Different story once he turns 18 and is looking to sign his first pro contract obviously.
___________
Any reference to "we" means the same thing it did on Simon's board five years ago (i.e. TFC in general or the entire TFC support).

KGH
07-14-2011, 10:55 PM
So backline for WED still --Gargan----Eck--Harden----Borman-- .... desperately need more depth in the back!

No Eck...suspension.

Jenkins12
07-14-2011, 10:57 PM
I dont see the big deal with the international spot if its only for a year, we basically get a player on loan for a year and a half

rocker
07-14-2011, 10:59 PM
So overall it seems Winter gave the young folks all a shot. It didn't work now he's making moves after learning the league. Here's to hoping the older folks can teach the up and comers

TFC definitely had one of the youngest teams in the league to start the season. Plata and Henry are good examples of how youth can be promising but also can hurt you at times. It's hard to win games with starting lineups full of youth, even if you're trying to develop players.

With Dunfield and Gordon being the same age, and Peterson and Johnson almost the same age, the only big difference is the addition of Frings at 34 and Koevermans at 32, while subtracting Nana, 22.

We actually have a bit more balance across the ages now...

tfcocd
07-14-2011, 11:01 PM
No Eck...suspension.

woah, then its this
--Gargan----Henry--Harden----Borman--

or is there another academy player to slot in? or hatchi?

TheKing7
07-14-2011, 11:06 PM
From Jacob Peterson's twitter: On to greener pastures...

Would a two-stick of Ryan Johnson with the Jamaican flag with the words "greener pastures" be too much?

J .
07-14-2011, 11:17 PM
Im a big fan of this trade. I think it does a ton for the club and we are a better side than before.

Dunfield will play as the ball winner JDG never was and with Frings and JDG in the midfield we have a very, very strong midfield and with Aleman never going to play for us anyway, Id take a ball winning leader than a kid who did zero at the u17 and is nothing more than potential at this point.

The Johnson trade took money, an unhappy player, a constantly injured and a constantly useless as well as injured player off the books. Johnson should be ok for us. He gives us someone to play so Plata can develop. I was hoping for someone more of a goal scorer to play that position but it looks like he gets a point either a goal or assist every three games, which isn't too bad.

I truly hope Winter signs someone who is a top quality right winger. We've never had that, with Frings, JDG and Dunfield in the mid, a serviceable left winger and Koevermans up top I really like our attack.

Our back line needs to be shored up, but I suspect with someone like Dunfield to park in front of the central defenders there will be less breakaways and the like.

TFCwestcan
07-14-2011, 11:52 PM
Likely the correct time to trade Gordon as much as I loved the guy this year, he came in with very low expectations and really played above himself. We shall see but I will bet that his second half of the year is not as productive as the first half, it seems like he needs a lot of recovery time.

We shall not forget the "win" like draw in LA when Gordon carried the team on his back. A highlight this year. Kind of a shame to see him go but in terms of the team the correct time to trade him.

DichioTFC
07-14-2011, 11:56 PM
I dont see the big deal with the international spot if its only for a year, we basically get a player on loan for a year and a half

Coaches often only plan a year or two in advance anyways.

TFC OZZ
07-15-2011, 12:32 AM
I've only been able to read a few pages of the threads, but it seems like TFC have made good moves. I like the addition of Dunfield, and Johnshon(if he's used as a winger), and the international spot and allocation. As for the players leaving, Gordon, Nana, and Peterson were all good players who despite criticism from many fans all gave plenty of effort for the club. Hopefully we continue in the right direction, and continue to add quality players to our roster. I'm pleased with the progress, however what defines Winter's regime will be the additional players he brings in to solidify the line-up.

CretanBull
07-15-2011, 01:25 AM
He's from TFC's protected 75 mile (?) territory in MLS Academy system terms so probably needs TFC's permission to hook up with another Canadian MLS team at the academy team level. Different story once he turns 18 and is looking to sign his first pro contract obviously.

TFC gave up all rights to him, he's a free agent able to sign for any team in the world.

CSO_BBTB
07-15-2011, 02:34 AM
Would a two-stick of Ryan Johnson with the Jamaican flag with the words "greener pastures" be too much?

Too few people would know what it was all about if it has only been on twitter, maybe? Beyond that I hope Jacob Peterson is left feeling like Kermit on the green thing: :puke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIOiwg2iHio

Alonso
07-15-2011, 04:20 AM
Terry Dunfield isn't valued very much over at Vancouver. There's gotta be more to this.

Allocation Money aside, Vancouver is salivating over Kevin Aleman from our academy, hoping the "future considerations" is his signing. Perhaps we have some trade value afterall.


Out of curiosity, why did you go from Peterson to Sturgis with your avatar?

Alonso
07-15-2011, 04:40 AM
Can't believe the venom for Dunfield. He's better than that POS JDG. And only cost $65,000. If we bring in better players he'll be a steller sub next season... or we can just drop him.


He was paid way more money last year while VWFC was not in MLS, so that this year they could pay him way less and fudge their numbers.

So he probably made around 100,000 - 200,000 on average over the two years.

pekduck
07-15-2011, 04:59 AM
Out of curiosity, why did you go from Peterson to Sturgis with your avatar?


Sigh..

I need a new picture :(


Now that Jacob Peterson has gone on to "greener pastures"

The new official "Best Player on TFC according to ArmenJBX" is

NATHAN STURGIS

Congratulations Nathan!

Page 8 :D

Soccer-Ts
07-15-2011, 07:17 AM
We're bringing in players but we're not "scratching where it itches". We still badly need an attacking mid and quality CB. Dunfield is definitely NOT THE ANSWER TO ANYTHING (except one of Vancouver's headaches).

The other players including the two dp's don't address our main problems. And continuing to use Ecks out of position causes all kinds of problems with width and the whole right side of our attack. There needs to be more coming or we won't have improved at all, except marginally in areas where we already were reasonably well set - CF (DKoevermans) and d-mid (Frings).

And I am still pissed about losing Nana. RJohnson is nothing to write home about, however if the I-spot and allocation $ he brought are turned to good account that would help a lot.

Topboy
07-15-2011, 07:38 AM
....If the CB is Kevin Hatchi I would say its a dissapointment

Oldtimer
07-15-2011, 07:39 AM
Ives' take on the trades:

http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/mls/story/toronto-fc-two-trades-terry-dunfield-ryan-johnson-fit-in-winters-system-071411


At his best, Dunfield is a capable central midfielder. He saw considerable playing time for Canada at the Gold Cup, but he also endured ups and downs with the Whitecaps. In Aron Wintter's 4-3-3 system, Dunfield is the type of defensive midfielder who could work well.
Ryan Johnson has struggled badly in MLS, having yet to score a goal this season, but his play for Jamaica has impressed and he could thrive in Toronto’s three-forward system. He does boast speed, though his finishing still leaves something to be desired.



The day’s big loser? It’s tough to understand Vancouver’s motivation for trading Dunfield, and with Whitecaps fans already mired in a forgettable debut season, dealing away Dunfield to a rival for what amounted to peanuts could come back to haunt the expansion club.

ryan
07-15-2011, 07:52 AM
TFC gave up all rights to him, he's a free agent able to sign for any team in the world.

CSN reported that because Aleman's been in our system for a year, he's our MLS property for 3 years.

Although it's expected that his rights become the "future considerations" in the Dunfield trade, where if he plays 1 year in the VWFC system he'll become "homegrown" talent for their club.

koryo
07-15-2011, 07:54 AM
Johnson I don't know enough about. Dunfield, for me, is an upgrade from JDG. Perhaps a bit less natural talent, but much more heart and far stronger work ethic. That's what's needed.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-15-2011, 08:06 AM
I take Ives opinion with a grain of salt these days.

FootieChick
07-15-2011, 09:21 AM
Nana is just boarding his plane... he appreciates all the support from the supporters and says "Thanks"... I'm so sad. He's such a great guy with so much potential. I wished him nothing but the best and he is going to do amazing - that is a fact!

ensco
07-15-2011, 09:25 AM
Funny asterisk to this: given the size of this trade, you've got to believe this was in the works for a while. Which makes me wonder about Brandon Macdonald, a pretty good young starting CB who is in the exact same situation Nana is (ie expiring contract, probably heading elsewhere at end of season), whom SJ moved to DCU two weeks ago for an allocation.

Who knows the ins and outs of these things, but from the outside, it's kind of odd that Macdonald didn't come here. Maybe it's because we're already pretty heavy on rentals, but he would have helped last week!

From SJ's perpective, I think I get it, Macdonald is a lot likelier to catch on in Europe than Nana is.

MG42
07-15-2011, 09:26 AM
I take Ives opinion with a grain of salt these days.

i'm in the same boat...he was the place for mls news and "insider" info

Shakes McQueen
07-15-2011, 09:27 AM
I take Ives opinion with a grain of salt these days.

I used to be a regular reader of his site. Now I rarely check it.

- Scott

Davenport
07-15-2011, 09:35 AM
The only player we'll miss is Gordon.....when he's fit.
Attakora is a liability at the back and Peterson is crap.
Can't understand why Winter didn't get a couple of defenders.
Dunfield and Johnson are average.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-15-2011, 09:38 AM
Can't understand why Winter didn't get a couple of defenders.

Id be willing to bet that a) Mariner is making these trades and b) we have some defenders on the way. Dont think anyones blind to the fact we need defenders.

Alixir
07-15-2011, 09:40 AM
The only player we'll miss is Gordon.....when he's fit.
Attakora is a liability at the back and Peterson is crap.
Can't understand why Winter didn't get a couple of defenders.
Dunfield and Johnson are average.
probably because Winter could not find a couple of defenders via the trade route. I don't think that we will be playing our next game without someone new on the back end. They know our back line is piss poor, they will try to get someone.

PopePouri
07-15-2011, 09:40 AM
Can't understand why Winter didn't get a couple of defenders.


The transfer window starts today.

Davenport
07-15-2011, 09:41 AM
Id be willing to bet that a) Mariner is making these trades and b) we have some defenders on the way. Dont think anyones blind to the fact we need defenders.

I know, but it should have been the first priority and now we've got 4 new players in, none of them defenders, and even traded one away.

Detroit_TFC
07-15-2011, 09:41 AM
Has anybody done a list of which players are permanent (relative term I know) and here on loan?

Davenport
07-15-2011, 09:42 AM
The transfer window starts today.
Good...they better get to work !

Ossington Mental Youth
07-15-2011, 09:43 AM
I know, but it should have been the first priority and now we've got 4 new players in, none of them defenders, and even traded one away.

Youre saying this as if you are certain they are not bringing defenders in a different way from trades ie free agency. Do you know something we dont know?

Shakes McQueen
07-15-2011, 09:43 AM
I know, but it should have been the first priority and now we've got 4 new players in, none of them defenders, and even traded one away.

It may very well be top priority. Some deals take longer than others to complete. The trades yesterday might just be the first ones across the finish line, or required moves to allow him to obtain the defenders he wants.

- Scott

Ossington Mental Youth
07-15-2011, 09:44 AM
Has anybody done a list of which players are permanent (relative term I know) and here on loan?

pretty sure we only have Plata and Eckersley on loan so far.

Oldtimer
07-15-2011, 09:44 AM
I know, but it should have been the first priority and now we've got 4 new players in, none of them defenders, and even traded one away.

Don't be too anxious... the transfer window just opened today.

PopePouri
07-15-2011, 09:46 AM
Winter was also trying to address the left sided winger problem which Plata plays out of position and why Stevanovic was brought on loan in the first place.

Davenport
07-15-2011, 09:46 AM
It may very well be top priority. Some deals take longer than others to complete. The trades yesterday might just be the first ones across the finish line, or required moves to allow him to obtain the defenders he wants.

- Scott

I hope you and OMY are both right. It has to happen because the defenders in this club are so bad it's laughable. We don't need 1 or 2, we need 4 at least.

DichioTFC
07-15-2011, 09:46 AM
Has anybody done a list of which players are permanent (relative term I know) and here on loan?

To the best of my knowledge:

Richard Eckersley
Joao Plata

Whoop
07-15-2011, 09:52 AM
Andy Iro



andyiro4 (http://twitter.com/#%21/andyiro4) Andy Iro



Seriously Crew fans. Even after not playing a minute in 15 games you still cheered my name. Loud! Hopefully Toronto fans are as great

PopePouri
07-15-2011, 09:54 AM
I'm thinking at least 2 defenders will come, possibly Hatchi and a trade for one of our DMs.

DichioTFC
07-15-2011, 09:55 AM
^^ Deal with the devil?

KGH
07-15-2011, 09:55 AM
Andy Iro

Finally a defender. Is this kid any good? He sure is tall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Iro

Oldtimer
07-15-2011, 09:56 AM
^^ Deal with the devil?

Bill Archer will be hysterical!

Pigfynn
07-15-2011, 10:02 AM
Iro talk http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28855

Wooster_TFC
07-15-2011, 10:02 AM
<moved>

Detroit_TFC
07-15-2011, 10:03 AM
Bill Archer will be hysterical!:hulk:

ROTFLMAO

s2cazz
07-15-2011, 10:10 AM
Bill Archer can eat a dick.

Roogsy
07-15-2011, 10:34 AM
Bill Archer can eat a dick.

I am sure he does. Plenty.

drexel10
07-15-2011, 10:39 AM
Finally a defender. Is this kid any good? He sure is tall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Iro

very strong and physical man marker. Could be a good move on our part, but like Nana may not be very comfortable with the ball and distribution. Oh and he is great in the air.

TFC Cityboy
07-15-2011, 11:22 AM
excellent acquisition- noticed good performances from him for the crew. 6'5" and a take-no-prisoners approach from what I recall...scouser too...hope he gets on with the Manc Eckersley!

TFC Cityboy
07-15-2011, 11:27 AM
twitter saying we've also got a winger Leandre Griffit
https://twitter.com/#!/search?q=%23Crew96
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leandre_Griffit

so Tchani leaves for these 2...sounds ok to me. Tchani's distribution is awful and his tackling/positional sense left something to be desired too.

PopePouri
07-15-2011, 11:34 AM
So we got Griffit, Borman, Iro and a first round pick for DeRo. That's incredible.

Detroit_TFC
07-15-2011, 12:08 PM
So we got Griffit, Borman, Iro and a first round pick for DeRo. That's incredible.

I think Griffit is instead of a pick from Columbus, no pick part of deal.

Shakes McQueen
07-15-2011, 12:09 PM
I think Griffit is instead of a pick from Columbus, no pick part of deal.

We got the pick from New York in the DeRo trade, I believe.

- Scott

lobo
07-15-2011, 12:19 PM
so long alan gordon, thanks for your stopover with us

Detroit_TFC
07-15-2011, 04:07 PM
Twitter:
@jacob__peterson (http://twitter.com/#%21/jacob__peterson) Jacob Peterson

Feels nice to be treated like an adult again..almost forgot what that felt like

------

Sound like a major venting will happen soon. Stay tuned.

Stryker
07-15-2011, 04:12 PM
Twitter:
@jacob__peterson (http://twitter.com/#%21/jacob__peterson) Jacob Peterson

Feels nice to be treated like an adult again..almost forgot what that felt like

----
Maybe if he wasn't retarded and able to get even the slightest grasp of the new system he wouldn't have been led by the hand through training like a child. His haircut didn't help ether.

TFC07
07-15-2011, 04:16 PM
Twitter:
@jacob__peterson (http://twitter.com/#%21/jacob__peterson) Jacob Peterson

Feels nice to be treated like an adult again..almost forgot what that felt like

------

Sound like a major venting will happen soon. Stay tuned.

LMAO! Now I want to boo him when his team comes to Toronto.

Oldtimer
07-20-2011, 07:20 AM
Now we know what happened with Nana:


That had not been the case and led to the departures of former captain Dwayne De Rosario and, more recently, his close friend and Day One Red, Nana Attakora, who Winter said had asked to be dealt.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/20/winter-vows-tfc-will-win

menefreghista
07-20-2011, 07:23 AM
If I was being frozen out of the line up I'd ask for a trade too.

Can't blame the guy at all.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-20-2011, 07:28 AM
meh, there were also rumors that he was asking for a significant pay raise and/or he wasnt slacking in practice etc. this ish can go both ways. either way hes gone.

menefreghista
07-20-2011, 07:30 AM
meh, there were also rumors that he was asking for a significant pay raise and/or he wasnt slacking in practice etc. this ish can go both ways. either way hes gone.

There were never rumours of a significant pay raise. Now you are just making shit up.

The story was always that they agreed on money, but disagreed on term. The rest is history.

Shakes McQueen
07-20-2011, 07:40 AM
If I was being frozen out of the line up I'd ask for a trade too.

Can't blame the guy at all.

Unless you think Anselmi is really calling the shots on the ground-floor managerial level, which I don't, there must be a reason Nana was frozen out of the lineup. It's not like Winter arrived in Toronto with a pre-existing bias against Nana.

In that scenario, contract demands or laziness in training would make sense, but I'm certainly willing to entertain any other hypothesis that makes logical sense.

A new Dutch manager who has no pror experience with a player, doesn't freeze that player out of the lineup for no reason.

- Scott

ElvistheEvilScotsman
07-20-2011, 07:42 AM
Interesting comment about the academy and selling players.

Under-15 and under-13 branches will be added to the existing U-19 and U-17’s, with the goal being to develop players who will improve the top club, the Canadian national team and/or TFC’s bottom line if they become good enough to be sold off.

I know its reality in football that players are assets and they can be sold off. I just get the feeling MLSE's motivation with investing in the reserves is heavily focused on winning a big transfer fee that will go right to their bottom line. I guess the benefit is we get all of the players that are MLS quality for cheap.

menefreghista
07-20-2011, 07:44 AM
Unless you think Anselmi is really calling the shots on the ground-floor managerial level, which I don't, there must be a reason Nana was frozen out of the lineup. It's not like Winter arrived in Toronto with a pre-existing bias against Nana.

In that scenario, contract demands or laziness in training would make sense, but I'm certainly willing to entertain any other hypothesis that makes logical sense.

A new Dutch manager who has no pror experience with a player, doesn't freeze that player out of the lineup for no reason.

- Scott

Who brought up Anselmi?

If Winter/Mariner are the ones negotiating contracts I don't think its a stretch to speculate that Winter was the one freezing him out.

CoachGT
07-20-2011, 07:55 AM
Interesting comment about the academy and selling players.

Under-15 and under-13 branches will be added to the existing U-19 and U-17ís, with the goal being to develop players who will improve the top club, the Canadian national team and/or TFCís bottom line if they become good enough to be sold off.

I know its reality in football that players are assets and they can be sold off. I just get the feeling MLSE's motivation with investing in the reserves is heavily focused on winning a big transfer fee that will go right to their bottom line. I guess the benefit is we get all of the players that are MLS quality for cheap.

More often than not, the selling of a single player can fund the academy for several years, and it helps draw in more prospects. Although the intent is to develop players, in a second tier league like this, you hope that you can develop a top tier player, give him a year or two on your development roster and sell him. It speaks volumes to any new prospects about the capabilities of your coaching staff and that you are willing to look at what might be best for both club and player.

CoachGT
07-20-2011, 07:59 AM
Unless you think Anselmi is really calling the shots on the ground-floor managerial level, which I don't, there must be a reason Nana was frozen out of the lineup. It's not like Winter arrived in Toronto with a pre-existing bias against Nana.

In that scenario, contract demands or laziness in training would make sense, but I'm certainly willing to entertain any other hypothesis that makes logical sense.

A new Dutch manager who has no pror experience with a player, doesn't freeze that player out of the lineup for no reason.

- Scott

Nana played his way out of the lineup, regardless of contractual situation. His ball handling skills were terrible this year, and it wasn't as noticable under Preki because of having 11 men behind the ball. The difference between Cann and Attakora is that Attakora may be marginally better at stopping an onrushing player than Cann, but when Cann gets the ball, he makes better decisions. Attakora is a "boot it out" guy.

I would expect that most of the contractual stuff is handled by Mariner directly, leaving Winter to tend to players.

I really think that Nana just wasn't good enough with the ball. The contract stuff was just a distraction that other people have hooked onto.

Shakes McQueen
07-20-2011, 08:05 AM
Who brought up Anselmi?

If Winter/Mariner are the ones negotiating contracts I don't think its a stretch to speculate that Winter was the one freezing him out.

I brought up Anselmi, and never implied otherwise.

Teams negotiate contracts all the time. Why would you freeze a player out of the lineup over a disagreement over term length, if that's all it was? And if it was Winter/Mariner doing the negotiating, saying "well look at TFC's history!" wouldn't really apply.

The innocuous alternative, of course, is that maybe Winter really did simply think Nana was lazy in training, or that he wasn't playing well enough to crack the lineup. Maybe Nana thought he was in line for a substantial contract, based on being our standout defender in previous years, but our new manager disagreed based on Nana's early performances this season, leading to some acrimony.

Nana was a starter at the beginning of the year, so it isn't a case of him being frozen out since day one.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
07-20-2011, 08:08 AM
Nana played his way out of the lineup, regardless of contractual situation. His ball handling skills were terrible this year, and it wasn't as noticable under Preki because of having 11 men behind the ball. The difference between Cann and Attakora is that Attakora may be marginally better at stopping an onrushing player than Cann, but when Cann gets the ball, he makes better decisions. Attakora is a "boot it out" guy.

I would expect that most of the contractual stuff is handled by Mariner directly, leaving Winter to tend to players.

I really think that Nana just wasn't good enough with the ball. The contract stuff was just a distraction that other people have hooked onto.

This is my conclusion as well. I'm just trying to engage these alternative theories of injustice being done to Nana, and so on.

I wasn't impressed with him in his early appearances this season, and I simply suspect Winter wasn't as well. Nana didn't like being relegated to the bench, and wanted to get a chance to play somewhere else, to earn the contract he thinks he deserves. Happens all the time in sports.

That's my theory.

- Scott

menefreghista
07-20-2011, 08:13 AM
Sometimes I forget that this is the TFC management supporter's forum.


Teams negotiate contracts all the time. Why would you freeze a player out of the lineup over a disagreement over term length, if that's all it was? And if it was Winter/Mariner doing the negotiating, saying "well look at TFC's history!" wouldn't really apply.

Considering the way Cann was treated, why is it hard to believe that these guys are hard-asses when it comes to contract negotiations?

After seeing Harden trotted out week after week for a period of time, I think its plausible that Nana was being fucked over.

Pookie
07-20-2011, 08:14 AM
More often than not, the selling of a single player can fund the academy for several years, and it helps draw in more prospects. Although the intent is to develop players, in a second tier league like this, you hope that you can develop a top tier player, give him a year or two on your development roster and sell him. It speaks volumes to any new prospects about the capabilities of your coaching staff and that you are willing to look at what might be best for both club and player.

Hey Coach, from a player's perspective, do you (or anyone) have an understanding how the "rights" are applied? I've heard of a few stories of players signing with the Academy, looking at no opportunities on the big club and hoping to shop their services elsewhere only to be denied the opportunity.

I am fully behind the Academy model and see big upside from the Club's perspective. Lost in most of the conversation are the details around implications for the player. Not every player on that Acaedmy roster is going to make it to the MLS. Can they pursue educational opportunities, as an example, if desired?

Shakes McQueen
07-20-2011, 08:15 AM
Interesting comment about the academy and selling players.

Under-15 and under-13 branches will be added to the existing U-19 and U-17ís, with the goal being to develop players who will improve the top club, the Canadian national team and/or TFCís bottom line if they become good enough to be sold off.

I know its reality in football that players are assets and they can be sold off. I just get the feeling MLSE's motivation with investing in the reserves is heavily focused on winning a big transfer fee that will go right to their bottom line. I guess the benefit is we get all of the players that are MLS quality for cheap.

Why would this raise a red flag with you? That's the modus operandi of every club academy on the planet. You develop players with the primary goal of bolstering your club, and selling the rest. You can't keep players in your Academy indefinitely, and simply letting them go for no return doesn't make sense.

- Scott

Roogsy
07-20-2011, 08:18 AM
I really think that Nana just wasn't good enough with the ball. The contract stuff was just a distraction that other people have hooked onto.

Except this is contrary to what even TFC front office have admitted. I know they offered him a new contract. I know they wanted to sign him. But when they finally had to trade him away all of a sudden they didn't want him?

Ossington Mental Youth
07-20-2011, 08:19 AM
There were never rumours of a significant pay raise. Now you are just making shit up.

The story was always that they agreed on money, but disagreed on term. The rest is history.

no need to get testy and yes there are several people who suggested it although you prob dont like them either, do believe it was mentioned on ICF

Shakes McQueen
07-20-2011, 08:21 AM
Sometimes I forget that this is the TFC management supporter's forum.

Considering the way Cann was treated, why is it hard to believe that these guys are hard-asses when it comes to contract negotiations?

After seeing Harden trotted out week after week for a period of time, I think its plausible that Nana was being fucked over.

Plausible, in that it's possible? Sure.

And keep your glib condescension to yourself. I've been nothing but respectful to you.

Being a hardass in negotiations is one thing (without getting into specifics about the Cann situation), but intentionally making your team worse for weeks and weeks by freezing a player completely out of the lineup, is another.

- Scott

Beach_Red
07-20-2011, 08:23 AM
I brought up Anselmi, and never implied otherwise.

Teams negotiate contracts all the time. Why would you freeze a player out of the lineup over a disagreement over term length, if that's all it was? And if it was Winter/Mariner doing the negotiating, saying "well look at TFC's history!" wouldn't really apply.

- Scott

It's never so straightforward in MLS, though, not all players negotiate from the same positions because there are domestic requirements and a limited number of international spots.

It's too bad this management also used the word "entitled" when talking about some players. It's somewhat understandable that they don't like the idea that there are different rules for different players - but there are, so they have to deal with it.

And maybe they don't always deal with it the best possible way.

Shakes McQueen
07-20-2011, 08:23 AM
Except this is contrary to what even TFC front office have admitted. I know they offered him a new contract. I know they wanted to sign him. But when they finally had to trade him away all of a sudden they didn't want him?

Maybe they wanted him, but only as a bench player, making bench player money. Winter may not have been impressed enough with Nana to start him, but you still have to have depth. EDIT: And I could understand Nana not liking being a bench player, OR signing a depth-player calibre contract, after being a starter the last couple of seasons.

- Scott

ManUtd4ever
07-20-2011, 08:35 AM
Nana played his way out of the lineup, regardless of contractual situation. His ball handling skills were terrible this year, and it wasn't as noticable under Preki because of having 11 men behind the ball. The difference between Cann and Attakora is that Attakora may be marginally better at stopping an onrushing player than Cann, but when Cann gets the ball, he makes better decisions. Attakora is a "boot it out" guy.

I would expect that most of the contractual stuff is handled by Mariner directly, leaving Winter to tend to players.

I really think that Nana just wasn't good enough with the ball. The contract stuff was just a distraction that other people have hooked onto.


This is my conclusion as well. I'm just trying to engage these alternative theories of injustice being done to Nana, and so on.

I wasn't impressed with him in his early appearances this season, and I simply suspect Winter wasn't as well. Nana didn't like being relegated to the bench, and wanted to get a chance to play somewhere else, to earn the contract he thinks he deserves. Happens all the time in sports.

That's my theory.

- Scott

Agreed. Although I do believe he would have been given the opportunity to earn a place in the starting lineup had he been willing to accept the contract extension that was offered by management. I think Nana's regression on the pitch, his reluctance to commit to the club long term, and his recurring injuries were the factors that sealed his fate in Toronto.

CSO_BBTB
07-20-2011, 08:39 AM
....I know its reality in football that players are assets and they can be sold off. I just get the feeling MLSE's motivation with investing in the reserves is heavily focused on winning a big transfer fee that will go right to their bottom line....

Not how it works in MLS, as far as I'm aware. Teams have to reinvest any money made on transfers over and above allocation money received into their soccer operations. The money from Edu went towards paying for the new grass playing surface, for example.

menefreghista
07-20-2011, 08:41 AM
Maybe they wanted him, but only as a bench player, making bench player money.

Why would you lock a bench player down for 4 years?

Shakes McQueen
07-20-2011, 08:41 AM
Not how it works in MLS, as far as I'm aware. Teams have to reinvest any money made on transfers over and above allocation money received into their soccer operations. The money from Edu went towards paying for the new grass playing surface, for example.

Ahh, I forgot about this as well. So even selling players could give the club an advantage in the league.

- Scott

denime
07-20-2011, 08:48 AM
Hey Coach, from a player's perspective, do you (or anyone) have an understanding how the "rights" are applied? I've heard of a few stories of players signing with the Academy, looking at no opportunities on the big club and hoping to shop their services elsewhere only to be denied the opportunity.

I am fully behind the Academy model and see big upside from the Club's perspective. Lost in most of the conversation are the details around implications for the player. Not every player on that Acaedmy roster is going to make it to the MLS. Can they pursue educational opportunities, as an example, if desired?

Yes, kids can pursue educational opportunities(NCAA) in US or Canada.

Junior/Senior academy players will go together to independent HS school(or are already going) in the morning,afternoon TFC.

Because of only 3-4Hrs of school per day they have to go 5 years(Grade13) instead of 4 and after that it is up to the kids,TFC,NCAA or Welfare.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-20-2011, 08:49 AM
Why would you lock a bench player down for 4 years?

maybe they thought he could get better.
We dont know for certain that it was definitely for 4 years.
everything is basically speculation unless one of us was sitting there with him and his agent

Shakes McQueen
07-20-2011, 08:52 AM
There may also be perceived roster advantages to locking down a Canadian national for multiple years, even if that player is only projected to be a sub.

- Scott

Oldtimer
07-20-2011, 09:18 AM
Ahh, I forgot about this as well. So even selling players could give the club an advantage in the league.

- Scott

Yes, up to $500 k in allocation directly benefits the club by giving the additional cap room. That can be quite significant.

The rest (after MLS' cut) benefits the club by being used to pay for infrastructure (probably the academy, in this case). MLS holds it in trust, so it can't just be paid in dividends to the Teachers' pension fund.

rocker
07-20-2011, 01:10 PM
from a club's perspective, they will always want to get the max years on a young player. If that player improves, then you've got a starting asset at a bench player's price. Purely business logic.

From what I understand, the last 2 years of a typical 4 year MLS deal are team options.
So if you lock down a 22 year old Canadian defender on one of these contracts, you've got him for 4 years if you want him, or you can dump him after 2 years if he fails. And even some CBA provisions allow teams to dump players at the half season or after one season.

MLS teams are always pretty tough on re-negotiations -- they have the power. Look at what happened to Hartman and VandenBurgh.

I wish Nana well... but people on this board were once saying he'd be going to Europe soon enough... I haven't seen enough growth in his play to warrant such an prediction. Everyone looked better defensively under Preki. I found under Dasovic and Winter, however, Nana was regularly exposed.

Dreadlocks
07-20-2011, 01:25 PM
Not how it works in MLS, as far as I'm aware. Teams have to reinvest any money made on transfers over and above allocation money received into their soccer operations. The money from Edu went towards paying for the new grass playing surface, for example.

Is a player (U13,15,17 & 19) that is not on the senior reserve squad or first team considered part of of the MLS? For example, if TFC sells a 16 year old who has never made a first team appearance to a European club, does the MLS get the transfer fee with only a portion going to TFC to be strictly put towards football operations?

I would assume that a player would have to be on the MLS books for the MLS to collect or have a say about where the money goes within TFC or MLSE for that matter.

I understand the Edu situation but he was a first team player on the MLS books.

ag futbol
07-20-2011, 01:32 PM
Why would you lock a bench player down for 4 years?
That's semantics.

MLS calls it a "four year contract", but really it's series of one year contracts with team options. Terrible for the player, not sure why anybody would sign one.

menefreghista
07-20-2011, 01:42 PM
That's semantics.

MLS calls it a "four year contract", but really it's series of one year contracts with team options. Terrible for the player, not sure why anybody would sign one.

I realize how the standard MLS contract works.

I just find it funny that people are trying to say Nana is shit, while management is trying to re-sign him. If he was so shit why not just release him?

And as for the actual contract I agree. Can't blame a player for doing everything they can to avoid such a contract.

I feel bad for TFC players though. We support them until management has a dispute with them. Than we vilify them instead.

Shakes McQueen
07-20-2011, 01:57 PM
I feel bad for TFC players though. We support them until management has a dispute with them. Than we vilify them instead.

At what point did we vilify Nana in all of this? The fact that I don't capriciously indict TFC management of heinous wrongdoing, isn't tantamount to vilifying Nana. Why does one side always have to be evil?

Nana valued himself differently than the manager obviously did, in contract talks. Nana asked for a trade as a result. The team traded him.

I didn't think Nana looked very good in the games he played this season. That doesn't mean I think he's a villain, or that he's "shit". On the contrary, Nana has always struck me as a good kid.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

- Scott

menefreghista
07-20-2011, 02:03 PM
At what point did we vilify Nana in all of this?

I'm just generalizing based on what I read from these various issues. I don't have the time to catalog them all.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Shakes McQueen
07-20-2011, 02:06 PM
Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Why is it necessary to take these condescending shots all the time?

Man alive, the internet is the death knell of civil person-to-person communication.

- Scott

menefreghista
07-20-2011, 02:19 PM
Why is it necessary to take these condescending shots all the time?

Come on, really?

Anyways, I think Nana wasn't treated good by the club management. You disagree. So be it.

I see a pattern of bad management. Others disagree. What can we do?

Blizzard
07-20-2011, 03:08 PM
Why is it necessary to take these condescending shots all the time?

Man alive, the internet is the death knell of civil person-to-person communication.

- Scott

You are right. If you wouldn't say it to somebody's face, you shouldn't say it in internet communications.

ensco
07-20-2011, 03:47 PM
It's rare to see a departed player's character publicly called out the way Winter did to Nana in that story.

There's a fine line between "being blunt and straightforward" and "having no class and being a jerk that no one wants to work for".

Winter needs more stature, imho, to be doing this so regularly.

jazzy
07-20-2011, 04:46 PM
[QUOTE=Shakes McQueen;1344295]At what point did we vilify Nana in all of this? The fact that I don't capriciously indict TFC management of heinous wrongdoing, isn't tantamount to vilifying Nana. Why does one side always have to be evil?

Nana valued himself differently than the manager obviously did, in contract talks. Nana asked for a trade as a result. The team traded him.

I didn't think Nana looked very good in the games he played this season. That doesn't mean I think he's a villain, or that he's "shit". On the contrary, Nana has always struck me as a good kid.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

+1
as you've stated previously if anyone had seen Nana earlier in the season , he was injured and when watching him with the reserves, he was ok, but upon returning re-injured himself.... I for one feel he will never be the same old Nana . as I have stated before there is something going on with his kness hammies whatever, think about it, it's been what a year since he's even been on.......and I've watched him as much as possible. But upon hearing months ago that he wouldn't sign and was willing to play out his options.....His future was decided by himself right then......everyone..time to stop the Nana man love

jloome
07-22-2011, 11:55 AM
It's rare to see a departed player's character publicly called out the way Winter did to Nana in that story.

There's a fine line between "being blunt and straightforward" and "having no class and being a jerk that no one wants to work for".

Winter needs more stature, imho, to be doing this so regularly.

What, Aron Winter needs more football stature for you? More TFC stature, because our glorious history suggests that overrides his record as a player?

Here's a suggestion: given that every serious coach to come to Canada since before Holger Osieck has discussed Canadian player entitlement problems (they cost Osieck, the best national team coach we ever had, his job), don't you think perhaps a little blunt amputation serves a purpose?

I think Nana has prospects, too, but he is a timid guy who, if friends with DeRo, is likely well stuck in to a particular group of Canadian players who have overstated their own value for years and behaved like it's a hobby. There's a reason most of the guys in that group couldn't EVER hold down a job in Europe, even though they all had their shot.

There are FUNDAMENTAL flaws in North American soccer culture, not just around tactics and movement etc, but around the nature of how players conduct themselves on and off the pitch. That's not new.

I respect that you might well be right about Attakora. Maybe it was handled terribly and is all Winter's fault. I doubt it, but fixing it certainly was his responsibility. But I gotta look at the bigger picture here, and if it takes bringing in a couple of hardass Dutch guys to piss and moan for a couple of years to move things in the right direction as far as the GAME is concerned, then it has to be done. They'll fuck up plenty along the way, I'm sure, but they do know a little bit about football.

ManUtd4ever
07-22-2011, 12:01 PM
What, Aron Winter needs more football stature for you? More TFC stature, because our glorious history suggests that overrides his record as a player?

Here's a suggestion: given that every serious coach to come to Canada since before Holger Osieck has discussed Canadian player entitlement problems (they cost Osieck, the best national team coach we ever had, his job), don't you think perhaps a little blunt amputation serves a purpose?

I think Nana has prospects, too, but he is a timid guy who, if friends with DeRo, is likely well stuck in to a particular group of Canadian players who have overstated their own value for years and behaved like it's a hobby. There's a reason most of the guys in that group couldn't EVER hold down a job in Europe, even though they all had their shot.

There are FUNDAMENTAL flaws in North American soccer culture, not just around tactics and movement etc, but around the nature of how players conduct themselves on and off the pitch. That's not new.

I respect that you might well be right about Attakora. Maybe it was handled terribly and is all Winter's fault. I doubt it, but fixing it certainly was his responsibility. But I gotta look at the bigger picture here, and if it takes bringing in a couple of hardass Dutch guys to piss and moan for a couple of years to move things in the right direction as far as the GAME is concerned, then it has to be done. They'll fuck up plenty along the way, I'm sure, but they do know a little bit about football.

Agreed. Preki made similar comments upon his departure last season. I hate to admit it, but perhaps all the coaches that have commented on the issue of entitlement with certain players were onto something.

Beach_Red
07-22-2011, 12:04 PM
^ I made a joke in another thread but there's some truth to it - soccer is far down the list of sports kids want to play in North America. The top hundred thousand or so athletes are scooped away by other sports. It's very rare for a guy to choose between a career in another sport or soccer and to chose soccer. So the ones left in soccer... Maybe there are attitude issues.

Of course, there's no way for Aron Winter to have known this, but you know, you've known it going back many, many years and seen how it has affected other coaches, so why does TFC seem to get blindsided by it so much? Why can't they see any of yhis coming and try to come up with a strategy to deal with it?

And again, no one is dissing Winter's playing abilities or understanding of the game. But when it comes to being the head coach it's a whole new ballgame, so to speak, and he hasn't proved anything yet.

sashavukelich
07-22-2011, 12:21 PM
What, Aron Winter needs more football stature for you? More TFC stature, because our glorious history suggests that overrides his record as a player?

Here's a suggestion: given that every serious coach to come to Canada since before Holger Osieck has discussed Canadian player entitlement problems (they cost Osieck, the best national team coach we ever had, his job), don't you think perhaps a little blunt amputation serves a purpose?

I think Nana has prospects, too, but he is a timid guy who, if friends with DeRo, is likely well stuck in to a particular group of Canadian players who have overstated their own value for years and behaved like it's a hobby. There's a reason most of the guys in that group couldn't EVER hold down a job in Europe, even though they all had their shot.

There are FUNDAMENTAL flaws in North American soccer culture, not just around tactics and movement etc, but around the nature of how players conduct themselves on and off the pitch. That's not new.

I respect that you might well be right about Attakora. Maybe it was handled terribly and is all Winter's fault. I doubt it, but fixing it certainly was his responsibility. But I gotta look at the bigger picture here, and if it takes bringing in a couple of hardass Dutch guys to piss and moan for a couple of years to move things in the right direction as far as the GAME is concerned, then it has to be done. They'll fuck up plenty along the way, I'm sure, but they do know a little bit about football.

Jloome lobbin' truth grenades.

rocker
07-22-2011, 12:42 PM
But when it comes to being the head coach it's a whole new ballgame, so to speak, and he hasn't proved anything yet.

Yes, but saying he hasn't proven anything yet isn't really a knock on the guy's coaching abilities.

Jason Kreis proved nothing about his coaching ability in 6 months (he'd never been a coach before). Hyndman in Dallas looked like a failure after 6 months (he'd never been a pro coach before). Arena in LA hadn't proven anything after 6 months.

The proof only comes in the long term. Since we haven't experienced the long term with Winter yet, trying to provide proof for the question "Is Winter a good coach?" is impossible.

CoachGT
07-22-2011, 12:47 PM
Hey Coach, from a player's perspective, do you (or anyone) have an understanding how the "rights" are applied? I've heard of a few stories of players signing with the Academy, looking at no opportunities on the big club and hoping to shop their services elsewhere only to be denied the opportunity.

I am fully behind the Academy model and see big upside from the Club's perspective. Lost in most of the conversation are the details around implications for the player. Not every player on that Acaedmy roster is going to make it to the MLS. Can they pursue educational opportunities, as an example, if desired?

From the discussions I've had with people in the academy, their purpose is to get players into the 1st team roster. Realistically, they expect to get one player into the roster every couple of years. In other academies elsewhere around the world, the hope is to get one into the first team roster every four or five years. But understand what that means - being on the 30 man roster does not mean starting. Just like any other professional athlete, many try, but only a small number actually crack a spot that will get significant playing time. Or a large salary.

Players really have no rights - they sign a contract with the team. While they may not get paid by the team, there are other advantages. They get access to much higher quality coaching and facilities than most clubs can ever hope to have. They get access to (infrequently) first team players. High quality medical staff with specializations in sports medicine. And so on. The question is are you ready to sign away your "future" to be with the team. And most players think that they will easily make the big teeam in two or three years and when the reality sets in, it is usually too late to do anything about it.

Kind of like the old pre-draft days in hockey, when you were effectively owned by a team, but the difference here is that you have a little more choice before the player signs.

If you want to take a trial with another team, you have to ask first. It is part of the contract you signed. If you allow players to just go off and do whatever, it becomes harder to enforce in the future, no matter how good the player is.

At least now there is an opportunity to go to school after having played in the academy. NCAA rules are more liberal today about that stuff than they were even five years ago, so some kids can translate their time with a professional academy into a scholarship. But if the team thinks that is your primary objective, you won't be around the academy for long.

gomesv
07-22-2011, 01:22 PM
What, Aron Winter needs more football stature for you? More TFC stature, because our glorious history suggests that overrides his record as a player?

Here's a suggestion: given that every serious coach to come to Canada since before Holger Osieck has discussed Canadian player entitlement problems (they cost Osieck, the best national team coach we ever had, his job), don't you think perhaps a little blunt amputation serves a purpose?

I think Nana has prospects, too, but he is a timid guy who, if friends with DeRo, is likely well stuck in to a particular group of Canadian players who have overstated their own value for years and behaved like it's a hobby. There's a reason most of the guys in that group couldn't EVER hold down a job in Europe, even though they all had their shot.

There are FUNDAMENTAL flaws in North American soccer culture, not just around tactics and movement etc, but around the nature of how players conduct themselves on and off the pitch. That's not new.

I respect that you might well be right about Attakora. Maybe it was handled terribly and is all Winter's fault. I doubt it, but fixing it certainly was his responsibility. But I gotta look at the bigger picture here, and if it takes bringing in a couple of hardass Dutch guys to piss and moan for a couple of years to move things in the right direction as far as the GAME is concerned, then it has to be done. They'll fuck up plenty along the way, I'm sure, but they do know a little bit about football.


Spot on with these statements. Winter might not have the pedigree as a coach, but in the football world he knows what it takes to make it in the sport... He shouldn't and I don't think he will take any crap from these entitled players here. Good on him for being a man amongst boys and calling them out.

Bet you any money Ecks, Frings, Koevs have no problem with what Winter has to say about these players..

ensco
07-22-2011, 01:37 PM
Jloome lobbin' truth grenades.

Well, then you guys go ahead and pay for this "Canadian/North American culture rework", with your own cold hard cash. Because I won't.

gomesv
07-22-2011, 01:57 PM
Well, then you guys go ahead and pay for this "Canadian/North American culture rework", with your own cold hard cash. Because I won't.


Well whatever it's called, (REWORK) or something else, as long as Winter is calling out the players that don't want to work hard or want to be here, then I fully support him on that.

And it is a bit of a culture situation......Who do you think is in charge at Real Madrid.....Mourinho or the players....Same has to happen in Toronto, you need players who are on board period.


One caveat, I just hope Winter is getting it right:)

spark
07-22-2011, 05:09 PM
Jason Kreis proved nothing about his coaching ability in 6 months (he'd never been a coach before). Hyndman in Dallas looked like a failure after 6 months (he'd never been a pro coach before). Arena in LA hadn't proven anything after 6 months.

The record is there for all to see. RSL didn't even have a win before Kreis retired and took over. The incline in their results follow their player acquisitions made within the first three months he took over. From no wins to 4-4-3 record to finish the year (under six months) says loud and clear what he was made of.

Considering Arena was hired at the end of August after six months would have been February. Six months into 2009 anyone with two eyes could see LA had completely turned around from 2008 and it wasn't with a roster overhaul either.

Shakes McQueen
07-22-2011, 11:22 PM
What, Aron Winter needs more football stature for you? More TFC stature, because our glorious history suggests that overrides his record as a player?

Here's a suggestion: given that every serious coach to come to Canada since before Holger Osieck has discussed Canadian player entitlement problems (they cost Osieck, the best national team coach we ever had, his job), don't you think perhaps a little blunt amputation serves a purpose?

I think Nana has prospects, too, but he is a timid guy who, if friends with DeRo, is likely well stuck in to a particular group of Canadian players who have overstated their own value for years and behaved like it's a hobby. There's a reason most of the guys in that group couldn't EVER hold down a job in Europe, even though they all had their shot.

There are FUNDAMENTAL flaws in North American soccer culture, not just around tactics and movement etc, but around the nature of how players conduct themselves on and off the pitch. That's not new.

I respect that you might well be right about Attakora. Maybe it was handled terribly and is all Winter's fault. I doubt it, but fixing it certainly was his responsibility. But I gotta look at the bigger picture here, and if it takes bringing in a couple of hardass Dutch guys to piss and moan for a couple of years to move things in the right direction as far as the GAME is concerned, then it has to be done. They'll fuck up plenty along the way, I'm sure, but they do know a little bit about football.

Great post, jloome.

- Scott

sashavukelich
07-24-2011, 01:24 PM
yup!!!! ^^^

Does anyone else find Andy Iro looking incredibly unfit....he looks not only slow physically, which is fine given other characteristics, but...slow decision making wise.

Thoughts? You can see what Winter is starting to do....it does look reasonably hopeful given this seasons disastrous results.

rocker
07-24-2011, 02:29 PM
The record is there for all to see. RSL didn't even have a win before Kreis retired and took over. The incline in their results follow their player acquisitions made within the first three months he took over. From no wins to 4-4-3 record to finish the year (under six months) says loud and clear what he was made of.

Considering Arena was hired at the end of August after six months would have been February. Six months into 2009 anyone with two eyes could see LA had completely turned around from 2008 and it wasn't with a roster overhaul either.

Nope, Kreis didn't finish with a 4-4-3 record after he took over on May 3, 2007. Where are you getting your numbers? RSL finished the season 6-15-9 and he took over just a few games into the season. In his first six months as coach of RSL, Kreis's record with RSL was: 6 wins, 13 losses, 7 ties. That's not good at all -- a few points better, in terms of points per game, than Winter's current record. Kreis didn't turn his team around in 6 months -- RSL had 10 wins the year before, after all. Most RSL fans might have actually said at the end of 2007 that Kreis wasn't the answer, since they actually got worse under Kreis at that point.

And Arena's record in his first six months of games with LA (3 months to end 2008, 3 months to start 2009) was 5 wins, 8 losses, 12 ties. That's not a complete turnaround either. Up to six months into his tenure with LA, Arena had a slightly worse points-per-game record than Ruud Gullit did in his almost two years coaching LA. So if you assessed Arena at that point, the facts would not say "improvement."

Both men had the benefit of coaching their teams, then having a full offseason to re-assess (2008 off season for Kreis and Arena) and make changes. Success only came in the *second season* each coach had with their respective teams. Not the first season. Arena didn't suddenly turn Gullit's mess into gold. He dumped over half the team, then started 2009 with a lot of ties and some losses.

In hindsight, people only seem to remember the successes of other teams, not the failures (and Arena failed in NY too). Kreis and Arena also struggled at the start of their most recent tenures. Just because they've since had success doesn't mean it was easy in their first 6 months.

The biggest advantage Kreis, Arena, and Schmidt had was that they were allowed to coach their team, then have a full offseason to re-assess, and then come back for a subsequent season.

sashavukelich
07-24-2011, 03:07 PM
Kreis didn't finish with a 4-4-3 record after he took over on May 3, 2007. Where are you getting your numbers? (RSL finished the season 6-15-9 and he took over just a few games into the season). In his first six months as coach of RSL, Kreis's record with RSL was: 6 wins, 13 losses, 7 ties. That's not good at all.

And Arena's record in his first six months of games with LA (3 months to end 2008, 3 months to start 2009) was 5 wins, 8 losses, 12 ties. That's not a complete turnaround either. Arena actually got fewer points per game than Ruud Gullit did that season when he finished the final 10 games of 2008.

Kreis didn't turn his team around in 6 months. They were still shit at the end of his first year. They were only 2 points better than TFC was that year (actually, his points per game in 2007 is only slight better than Winter's is now -- about 1 single win better).

Arena took almost a whole year before his team really started to turn around. (Also, go and look at Sigi Schmidt's work in Columbus -- his team was awful in its first and second years... some turnaround!).

Both men had the benefit of coaching their teams, then having a full offseason to re-assess (2008 off season for Kreis and Arena) and make changes. Success only came in the *second season* each coach had with their respective teams. Not the first season. Arena didn't suddenly turn Gullit's mess into gold (only 2 wins in 10 games to close out 2008 after taking over.... he then radically changed the roster, the way Winter and Mariner did).

People only seem to remember the successes of other teams, not the failures (and Arena failed in NY too).

The biggest advantage Kreis, Arena, and Schmidt had was that they were allowed to coach their team, then have a full offseason to re-assess, and then come back for a subsequent season.

Queue the trumpets of triumph. *ba ba ba ba!!!*

spark
07-24-2011, 05:12 PM
Nope, Kreis didn't finish with a 4-4-3 record after he took over on May 3, 2007. Where are you getting your numbers? RSL finished the season 6-15-9 and he took over just a few games into the season. In his first six months as coach of RSL, Kreis's record with RSL was: 6 wins, 13 losses, 7 ties. That's not good at all -- a few points better, in terms of points per game, than Winter's current record. Kreis didn't turn his team around in 6 months -- RSL had 10 wins the year before, after all. Most RSL fans might have actually said at the end of 2007 that Kreis wasn't the answer, since they actually got worse under Kreis at that point.

You need to reread what I posted. I specifically said once he finished making his acquisitions (end of August, but four months not three my bad) they ended the season 4-4-3. If you need me to post the results from that point I can. Their increase in form/results was a direct result of Kries bringing in Findlay, Beckerman, Morales and Espindola. If you can't see that as a marked, tangible improvement to end your 6-month period, to "prove" the coach is doing the right things, so be it. Do you actually know RSL fans were saying that or are you making that up? PS not trying to be a dick just engaging. We might just disagree but in cases of Kries/Arena I specifically remember seeing these teams improving by the end of that period you set (ie TFC being beaten at home sans Beckham/Donovan) Hydnman though you might be right but his past is on his side as he has a high profile background.

rocker
07-24-2011, 07:05 PM
You need to reread what I posted. I specifically said once he finished making his acquisitions (end of August, but four months not three my bad) they ended the season 4-4-3. If you need me to post the results from that point I can. Their increase in form/results was a direct result of Kries bringing in Findlay, Beckerman, Morales and Espindola. If you can't see that as a marked, tangible improvement to end your 6-month period, to "prove" the coach is doing the right things, so be it. Do you actually know RSL fans were saying that or are you making that up?

You haven't provided any evidence to refuse my assertion that "Jason Kreis proved nothing about his coaching ability in 6 months."

What exactly does mid-season transfer signings like Morales and Espindola have to do with proving that Kreis is a good coach at the end of the 2007 season?
In 2011, we know those were good moves, but as of October 2007, there was no evidence he was a good coach.

You conveniently ignore the fact that Kreis won only 1 of his first ten games in MLS. Did that make him a bad coach in those first 10 games? Winter won 2 of his first ten games in MLS. ;) Kreis was 3-4-3 in his final ten games of the 2007 season. Does that prove he's a good coach?

All these cherrypicked periods (10 games here, 11 games there) don't change the fact that after 6 months Kreis and Winter had almost identifical records points per game. That's the only fair comparison as Winter has just been in the league 6 months. I can't give Kreis credit for the last part of 2007 but no criticism for the first part -- all under his control.

The funny thing is, Kreis really didn't do that great in 2008 (10-10-10 is the definition of average). Then in 2009, his team actually had 1 fewer win than loss. The team only made the playoffs by 1 point. They did not win the Supporters Shield in 2008 or 2009, but thanks to the playoff system, won an MLS Cup. It's only in 2010 and 2011 that the plan is coming to fruition and the team is really good in the regular season. With time, Kreis has done well. today, after many years as coach, he seems a good coach by win loss record and anecdotes. Sometimes I wonder if people in Toronto would have been patient with a coach like Kreis -- like if Brennan was offered the coaching reins in 2010. RSL had the same awful history. They really took a chance with Kreis.

None of what I just wrote proves that Kreis was better than Winter or proves that either coach knew what he was doing after 6 months. It's only in hindsight that we have proof that Kreis was doing the right thing.

rocker
07-24-2011, 09:32 PM
Do you actually know RSL fans were saying that or are you making that up? PS not trying to be a dick just engaging.

Here are samples, from many RSL fans (taken from Big Soccer forum during 2007 and into 2008) about what fans thought of Jason Kreis. Each comment is by a different user, ordered from when he signed on as coach to the January offseason.

I encourage everyone to read this. If you replaced "Kreis" with "Winter" you might think you're reading the TFC boards. This is the first 6-8 months of Kreis as coach.... so about the same as Winter's current term. Hindsight makes people forget this sentiment existed.

I think you'll see that RSL fans were mixed on Kreis and some downright wanted him gone.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

May 3, 2007

If Kreis couldn't motivate the team as captain, how's he going to do any better on the bench?

I'm not down on Kreis as coach so much as the fact that NEW BLOOD is needed somewhere to inspire the team, staff AND ESPECIALLY the fans. No new blood = No new motivation. No new philosophy.

Here is to hoping and praying that Kreis turns into the next Preki??

Kreis says that he will tinker with the team but believes it is good, and that the biggest change is a need for a "mentality change" on the part of an unnamed player with whom he has already spoken.

June 14, 2007

What I'm sick of is listening to Kreis say they are waiting for the right player at the right time. When is the right time? Is it when we are so far out of the playoff race that the season becomes a wash, and we pick up a player that wont be on our team next year.

June 15, 2007

Lets be honest, picking Kreis as the coach wasn't the smartest move by RSL this year. I wonder how much he makes as coach?

June 20, 2007

Kreis will eventually be a decent MLS coach in the right situation......but here & now is not that situation.

First kreis SUCK, second in that team only his friends play, he is losing and losing and do not make any change

The WHOLE FO needs to go...and throw in the coach too....

July 11, 2007

I like the moves he's making, and I think the team has progressed, but not enough.

July 12, 2007

I believe that Kreis is trying to put in place a style of play that emphasizes a buildup through the midfield, with smart well-placed runs that lead to dangerous opportunities. Unfortunately, despite the intentions we just give the ball away, and we haven't been able to finish our opportunities. In the long-run, however, I think this approach will be more succesful than Ellinger's non-stop long balls over the top approach. the choice of Kreis was probably premature. He is still learning on the job and has admitted that. He has/will make mistakes.

The team plays half hearted and un-inspired; and thats just the ones that actually play!

JK could not motivate the team as a player and team captain. How is wearing the coach's hat going to make any difference?

July 22, 2007

I'm still not sure that Kreis has what it takes to be a quality coach in this league, but I do like the effort.

September 16

I firmly believe the weird lineups are a result of JK using the rest of the season to evaluate players against MLS sides instead of practice field evaluations

October 1

Last season we had 39 pts. This season we have 24 pts (with no way of making 39) Does anyone here really think that the team has gotten better?

October 15

In the ceremony, Checketts lauded Kreis by saying that he looks forward to Kreis being at the helm for a long time and that he knows that Kreis will be a great coach in MLS. Dear Dave: I know you're an optimist but, come on! What hard evidence do you have to support your view? His whopping five victories this season?

October 16

I'm not saying he's gonna be a great coach, but I think it's too early to write him off.

he hasnt proven much yet, hopefully he can prove me wrong and become a decent coach. i hate to say it, but im betting against him.

He rubs me the wrong way as a person and I think that he has faults as a coach.

October 19

I'm as dissapointed as anyone with the results of this team, but to blame Kreis is misguided. Honestly, the guy inherited a stinking fish and had the brass to sacrifice wins this year (and increase the calls for his head) to try and implement some much needed changes to this disaster.

October 23

In July, Kreis proclaimed that the rest of 2007 would be treated like his preseason. When exactly does the accountability start?

October 24

Kreis will sink or swim with his results early next season. But the search for his replacement should be ongoing now--lest Checketts repeat his 3 year Ellinger nightmare yet again.

November 19, 2007

RSL needs to get rid of Kreis before the next disaster.

JK needs to get his act together in a hurry. I know there is all this talk about Checketts giving him an ultimatum to turn it around this season but I don't see it. Not with DC's man-crush on JK. How could he fire him? Kreis might dump him if he did that!

I personally think Kreis has a very poor relationship with his players. I’ve heard of how he doesn’t talk to them and apparently, as one blogger mentioned, his tactics in dealing with them are bush league. You won’t gain loyalty that way. Who would want to come play for him?

it seems soccerbum and lakeboy have become our official "hate on Jason Kreis until he is fired" posters here on the RSL forums. much like sl7vk and i were with ellinger two years ago.

ok, kreis has made some boneheaded mistakes, but seeing as how this is his first head coaching gig i can understand a few of them. throwing him straight to the lions (especially considering this is all 100% unsubstantiated rumor at this point) seems a little drastic to me. RSL is garbage, has been complete crap for 3 seasons now, but at this point its still too early to tell if Kreis has made an improvement.

He has made some mistakes. But I don't think we can fully judge yet. He needs to be able to set everything up. He has started to bring in players, and hopefully those player changes will continue and we can really see how this team will play out under Kreis in the beginning of next year.

If Kries doesnt bring in more talent and fix some of the glaring holes we all can see then sure get rid of him but as long as he is working on improving the team I will quietly sit by.

Wait... so can anyone explain to me yet why it's clearly necessary to have a coach that is familiar with the league if this crap happens? I'm still not sold. Never was.

November 29, 2007

I particularly liked how both Ellinger and Kreis have continually lamented the fact that the team wasn't keeping possession, while putting players on the pitch who were not suited for playing that style.

December 10, 2007

Jason Kreis has a growing credibility problem. In less than a year, he's been caught up in numerous situations that raise serious questions about his judgment & honesty.

Kreis is continually dogged by allegations of bad faith dealings.

Look I am by no means a big fan of JK. And frankly dont think he really has what it takes to be a really good manager.

I think I'll wait until Kreis has a full season under his belt (and maybe another one past that) before I make any judgments.

December 11, 2007

for all intent and purposes kreis has had a full season. not only that, but he has had 3 seasons with this organization. he should be damn familiar with the goings-on with this crap ass organization so giving him another full season or two could be a major mistake (in the looonnngggg list of major mistakes this team has made).

I think JK is too much of a gamble to be given too much time to learn on the job. Now, can he be successful? Sure, but you can't look at his resume as evidence of that likelihood. I would never have chosen him (had I been in the position) but even now that he is in the position, the team can't afford anything but a decent 4th year or they'll blow the positives PR effects of opening a new stadium.

Despite his multitude of mistakes he has done some things right such as the acquisition of Beckerman and El trio de Argentina. With another few good pickups south of the equator in this current trip we could have an adequate team...not great, adequate.

This next year will be Kreis's chosen materials with Kreis's management of those materials. I'd say within about 8 to 10 games we'll know if he is worthy of the job and the money he's being paid.

December 27, 2007

I truly dislike Jason, not for his coaching, but I have always felt he puts himself above everyone! He degrades players in his interviews, it is very well known that RSL does not do anything together as a team, as do other teams, and now to see the way he has treated the GA players, and veteran players that have given to this team it just sickens me.

January 4, 2008

I figured since there is so much hate for JK going around these boards, it would be useful to have one centralized place where everyone can go to hate on the guy, perpetuate unfounded rumors and just be generally critical or bitchy. Perhaps if we can isolate the anti Kreis sentiment to one area, we can prevent it from spreading like a cancer and infecting all the other people who support this team and can forgive the man's flaws. But for all the perfect people out there, this is the place for them to sound off. The best part is, if you post 7 times, you get a free sample of prozac!

Jan 5, 2008

I think that Kreis has alot to prove, and needs to do it early in the season. The club MUST be successful early on, or Kreis needs to go.

Alonso
07-24-2011, 09:51 PM
That's awesome, thanks for digging that up Rocker.

I hope Winter gets the chance to succeed, ALL our coaches deserve at least that.

jazzy
07-24-2011, 09:58 PM
[QUOTE=rocker;1347349]Here are samples, from many RSL fans (taken from Big Soccer forum during 2007 and into 2008) about what fans thought of Jason Kreis. Each comment is by a different user, ordered from when he signed on as coach to the January offseason.

pretty informative post........how many will read this...it may or not be a similar situation here but it is certainly human nature at work unfortunately

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2011, 09:59 PM
It's funny to see RSL fans talking about how fractured the relationships between the players and management are, what with the penchant here to sometimes act as though these kinds of tribulations are exclusive to Toronto FC. They even talk about how "bush league" he was, and how they didn't inspire "loyalty" - two phrases that get thrown around here from time to time.

Anyway, great research Rocker. And way to throw down the gauntlet when accused of making stuff up.

- Scott

Beach_Red
07-24-2011, 10:03 PM
^ Yes, and the one about him only playing his friends, we heard that a lot last year and he's, "... continually dogged by allegations of bad faith dealings," sounds familiar, too.

Wait a minute, maybe we were on the right track last year... ;).

rocker
07-24-2011, 10:09 PM
I just want people to remember that hindsight is 20/20.... and that we often forget our history. I'm a historian by profession, and it's easy to forget this stuff (if people even knew it). I wouldn't be surprised if most people were not following the trials and tribulations of Real Salt Lake in 2007, so it's easy to get caught up in the success of someone like Kreis and say "why can't Winter do this as fast as Kreis did?" But when you excavate the past, you often find that it wasn't what you thought.

The "degrades players in interviews" is something we've heard regarding Winter. Also interesting is the comment about how clearly Kreis wants a play it on the ground style (not long ball like the previous coach) but it's not working at that point and finishing has been a problem. ;)

Clearly it wasn't all uniform opinion on Kreis, lots of debate, disagreement. But even people who wanted to give him more rope talked about his faults and mistakes. And most only gave him another season or less.

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2011, 10:19 PM
Part of the problem is that MLS fans seem to end up in bubbles, where they only really pay attention or care about their own teams. How many TFC fans honestly care enough to watch MLS games not featuring Toronto, let alone pay any attention to the behind the scenes stuff in those cities.

- Scott

habstfc
07-24-2011, 10:58 PM
Here are samples, from many RSL fans (taken from Big Soccer forum during 2007 and into 2008) about what fans thought of Jason Kreis. Each comment is by a different user, ordered from when he signed on as coach to the January offseason.

I encourage everyone to read this. If you replaced "Kreis" with "Winter" you might think you're reading the TFC boards. This is the first 6-8 months of Kreis as coach.... so about the same as Winter's current term. Hindsight makes people forget this sentiment existed.

I think you'll see that RSL fans were mixed on Kreis and some downright wanted him gone.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

May 3, 2007

If Kreis couldn't motivate the team as captain, how's he going to do any better on the bench?

I'm not down on Kreis as coach so much as the fact that NEW BLOOD is needed somewhere to inspire the team, staff AND ESPECIALLY the fans. No new blood = No new motivation. No new philosophy.

Here is to hoping and praying that Kreis turns into the next Preki??

Kreis says that he will tinker with the team but believes it is good, and that the biggest change is a need for a "mentality change" on the part of an unnamed player with whom he has already spoken.

June 14, 2007

What I'm sick of is listening to Kreis say they are waiting for the right player at the right time. When is the right time? Is it when we are so far out of the playoff race that the season becomes a wash, and we pick up a player that wont be on our team next year.

June 15, 2007

Lets be honest, picking Kreis as the coach wasn't the smartest move by RSL this year. I wonder how much he makes as coach?

June 20, 2007

Kreis will eventually be a decent MLS coach in the right situation......but here & now is not that situation.

First kreis SUCK, second in that team only his friends play, he is losing and losing and do not make any change

The WHOLE FO needs to go...and throw in the coach too....

July 11, 2007

I like the moves he's making, and I think the team has progressed, but not enough.

July 12, 2007

I believe that Kreis is trying to put in place a style of play that emphasizes a buildup through the midfield, with smart well-placed runs that lead to dangerous opportunities. Unfortunately, despite the intentions we just give the ball away, and we haven't been able to finish our opportunities. In the long-run, however, I think this approach will be more succesful than Ellinger's non-stop long balls over the top approach. the choice of Kreis was probably premature. He is still learning on the job and has admitted that. He has/will make mistakes.

The team plays half hearted and un-inspired; and thats just the ones that actually play!

JK could not motivate the team as a player and team captain. How is wearing the coach's hat going to make any difference?

July 22, 2007

I'm still not sure that Kreis has what it takes to be a quality coach in this league, but I do like the effort.

September 16

I firmly believe the weird lineups are a result of JK using the rest of the season to evaluate players against MLS sides instead of practice field evaluations

October 1

Last season we had 39 pts. This season we have 24 pts (with no way of making 39) Does anyone here really think that the team has gotten better?

October 15

In the ceremony, Checketts lauded Kreis by saying that he looks forward to Kreis being at the helm for a long time and that he knows that Kreis will be a great coach in MLS. Dear Dave: I know you're an optimist but, come on! What hard evidence do you have to support your view? His whopping five victories this season?

October 16

I'm not saying he's gonna be a great coach, but I think it's too early to write him off.

he hasnt proven much yet, hopefully he can prove me wrong and become a decent coach. i hate to say it, but im betting against him.

He rubs me the wrong way as a person and I think that he has faults as a coach.

October 19

I'm as dissapointed as anyone with the results of this team, but to blame Kreis is misguided. Honestly, the guy inherited a stinking fish and had the brass to sacrifice wins this year (and increase the calls for his head) to try and implement some much needed changes to this disaster.

October 23

In July, Kreis proclaimed that the rest of 2007 would be treated like his preseason. When exactly does the accountability start?

October 24

Kreis will sink or swim with his results early next season. But the search for his replacement should be ongoing now--lest Checketts repeat his 3 year Ellinger nightmare yet again.

November 19, 2007

RSL needs to get rid of Kreis before the next disaster.

JK needs to get his act together in a hurry. I know there is all this talk about Checketts giving him an ultimatum to turn it around this season but I don't see it. Not with DC's man-crush on JK. How could he fire him? Kreis might dump him if he did that!

I personally think Kreis has a very poor relationship with his players. Iíve heard of how he doesnít talk to them and apparently, as one blogger mentioned, his tactics in dealing with them are bush league. You wonít gain loyalty that way. Who would want to come play for him?

it seems soccerbum and lakeboy have become our official "hate on Jason Kreis until he is fired" posters here on the RSL forums. much like sl7vk and i were with ellinger two years ago.

ok, kreis has made some boneheaded mistakes, but seeing as how this is his first head coaching gig i can understand a few of them. throwing him straight to the lions (especially considering this is all 100% unsubstantiated rumor at this point) seems a little drastic to me. RSL is garbage, has been complete crap for 3 seasons now, but at this point its still too early to tell if Kreis has made an improvement.

He has made some mistakes. But I don't think we can fully judge yet. He needs to be able to set everything up. He has started to bring in players, and hopefully those player changes will continue and we can really see how this team will play out under Kreis in the beginning of next year.

If Kries doesnt bring in more talent and fix some of the glaring holes we all can see then sure get rid of him but as long as he is working on improving the team I will quietly sit by.

Wait... so can anyone explain to me yet why it's clearly necessary to have a coach that is familiar with the league if this crap happens? I'm still not sold. Never was.

November 29, 2007

I particularly liked how both Ellinger and Kreis have continually lamented the fact that the team wasn't keeping possession, while putting players on the pitch who were not suited for playing that style.

December 10, 2007

Jason Kreis has a growing credibility problem. In less than a year, he's been caught up in numerous situations that raise serious questions about his judgment & honesty.

Kreis is continually dogged by allegations of bad faith dealings.

Look I am by no means a big fan of JK. And frankly dont think he really has what it takes to be a really good manager.

I think I'll wait until Kreis has a full season under his belt (and maybe another one past that) before I make any judgments.

December 11, 2007

for all intent and purposes kreis has had a full season. not only that, but he has had 3 seasons with this organization. he should be damn familiar with the goings-on with this crap ass organization so giving him another full season or two could be a major mistake (in the looonnngggg list of major mistakes this team has made).

I think JK is too much of a gamble to be given too much time to learn on the job. Now, can he be successful? Sure, but you can't look at his resume as evidence of that likelihood. I would never have chosen him (had I been in the position) but even now that he is in the position, the team can't afford anything but a decent 4th year or they'll blow the positives PR effects of opening a new stadium.

Despite his multitude of mistakes he has done some things right such as the acquisition of Beckerman and El trio de Argentina. With another few good pickups south of the equator in this current trip we could have an adequate team...not great, adequate.

This next year will be Kreis's chosen materials with Kreis's management of those materials. I'd say within about 8 to 10 games we'll know if he is worthy of the job and the money he's being paid.

December 27, 2007

I truly dislike Jason, not for his coaching, but I have always felt he puts himself above everyone! He degrades players in his interviews, it is very well known that RSL does not do anything together as a team, as do other teams, and now to see the way he has treated the GA players, and veteran players that have given to this team it just sickens me.

January 4, 2008

I figured since there is so much hate for JK going around these boards, it would be useful to have one centralized place where everyone can go to hate on the guy, perpetuate unfounded rumors and just be generally critical or bitchy. Perhaps if we can isolate the anti Kreis sentiment to one area, we can prevent it from spreading like a cancer and infecting all the other people who support this team and can forgive the man's flaws. But for all the perfect people out there, this is the place for them to sound off. The best part is, if you post 7 times, you get a free sample of prozac!

Jan 5, 2008

I think that Kreis has alot to prove, and needs to do it early in the season. The club MUST be successful early on, or Kreis needs to go.

Wow, great job, but can you please get rid of that creepy Brian Edwards avatar, that shit gives me nightmares.

MarkoftheDrink
07-25-2011, 06:51 AM
Nana got his first start for SJ over the weekend. Judging by the condensed game he had some brutal plays at CB, a last man back turnover and a total blow by. Yallop obviously didn't like what he was seeing as he subbed him out @ 53' with the score still 0-0. RSL was totally out playing them as one would expect, but it wasn't until the ref gave a cheap penalty + red card combo @ 63' on a dive in the box that shit totally fell apart. 4-0 RSL.

Oldtimer
07-25-2011, 07:13 AM
Great research, Rocker, wow... sounds almost like a clone of this board. Almost every line could be a quote from here about Winter from this board over the last few months.

Beach_Red
07-25-2011, 07:32 AM
Great research, Rocker, wow... sounds almost like a clone of this board. Almost every line could be a quote from here about Winter from this board over the last few months.

Or any year of TFC so far...

menefreghista
07-26-2011, 11:34 PM
As speculated, Aleman's MLS rights have been traded to Vancouver as the future considerations in the Dunfield deal.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/soccer/Jury+Whitecaps+deal+Aleman/5163199/story.html

SweetOwnGoal
07-27-2011, 01:09 AM
As speculated, Aleman's MLS rights have been traded to Vancouver as the future considerations in the Dunfield deal.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/soccer/Jury+Whitecaps+deal+Aleman/5163199/story.html


We all can understand Aleman's desire to test himself in Europe, but, if you'll allow me to defend TFC for a moment you might see how what they were asking for isn't that out there and how the Caps and others should be looking for similar things.

Toronto has already invested a year into his development. They are also preparing to set up u15 and u13 programs. In the future, the next Keven Aleman they produce (and dumb luck dictates they will produce one every few years) will have been in their system a lot longer than a year. Developing these kids isn't free. Any club in the world would look to protect itself. Allowing Aleman to dictate things would send a message to every kid in their system that they control the agenda, not the club. The MLS academies could be used -- and drained of resources -- until something better came along and then the player ****s off for nothing.

Could you imagine a Liverpool or Man United or Barcelona or...youth player just up and leaving the club? No, those clubs make sure that they are compensated whenever a youth player leaves. It's basic business.

In Aleman's case, TFC was as much guaranteeing that they would get a transfer fee if he moved as they were trying to keep him for the first team. Since the made it clear he didn't want to commit, TFC essentially did an end around and got a transfer fee for him in the form of Dunfield. Only in MLS would they hold onto his rights, but it is what it is....

I would think/hope the Caps would want to protect the assets they produce in the same way. Just letting tem walk for nothing would be awfully naive of them.

There is little doubt that there is a risk here for Toronto -- he could come back and bite them in the ass -- but I'd argue that it's minimal. The kid is either as good as people hope and will go on to play a long career a LONG way from Vancouver, or he's overrated/peaked and will not be as good as Dunfield.

Think about it. What's the scenario that sees the Caps win this? That he's pretty good, but not good enough to stick in Europe. Then what have you really gained in the trade?

Terry Dunfield, thatís what.

CretanBull
07-27-2011, 01:27 AM
^ He wouldn't have left for nothing. At the very least TFC would have been entitled training compensation if he left our club for Europe (or any other league). When we released him, we gave up our right to compensation - and essentially let him walk away for nothing.

What we traded to Vancouver was his MLS rights, something which we would have still owned and could have still traded to Vancouver if he left us.

menefreghista
07-27-2011, 06:18 AM
^ He wouldn't have left for nothing. At the very least TFC would have been entitled training compensation if he left our club for Europe (or any other league). When we released him, we gave up our right to compensation - and essentially let him walk away for nothing.

What we traded to Vancouver was his MLS rights, something which we would have still owned and could have still traded to Vancouver if he left us.

Exactly.

Of course, TFC could have locked him up and put him on their actual MLS roster. Its not like the other Academy graduates are being played. Or where those guys better prospects?

Ossington Mental Youth
07-27-2011, 06:59 AM
One would assume they are considered better prospects, but they are also older. Perhaps showed greater interest in staying?

But to sign him at 16 and unproven?

They did try to get him to sign a letter of intent which to a certain extent was trying to lock him up. Much ado about nothing. Its clear he didnt want to stay here, doubt thatll change. Doubt thatll change with Vancouver.

ensco
07-27-2011, 07:10 AM
Could you imagine a Liverpool or Man United or Barcelona or...youth player just up and leaving the club? No, those clubs make sure that they are compensated whenever a youth player leaves. It's basic business.



Yes I can imagine it. Fabregas. Macheda.

These workings are murky by design, but the star kids are heavily recruited and "dictate terms" in academies everywhere.

I've got no opinion on Aleman the player, but management hasn't earned much faith on this. It could be that our handling of this was correct. But it's certainly interesting to look at the bigger trend. Our FO just seem driven to burn absolutely everything they found here to the ground.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-27-2011, 07:16 AM
Cmon man, thats going a bit far considering how little we know about the player.
Even if it happens its not the end of the world, its one player.
Im gonna step away from this conversation now as it really is much ado about nothing.

djking2
07-27-2011, 07:23 AM
^ He wouldn't have left for nothing. At the very least TFC would have been entitled training compensation if he left our club for Europe (or any other league). When we released him, we gave up our right to compensation - and essentially let him walk away for nothing.

What we traded to Vancouver was his MLS rights, something which we would have still owned and could have still traded to Vancouver if he left us.

uh no we wouldn't, that's the whole point

ensco
07-27-2011, 07:24 AM
Cmon man, thats going a bit far considering how little we know about the player.
Even if it happens its not the end of the world, its one player.
Im gonna step away from this conversation now as it really is much ado about nothing.

I was editing while you wrote that. You're right. What I have up there now is more what I wanted to say.

brad
07-27-2011, 07:28 AM
There were rumors floating around about Aleman's attitude being an issue - stuff like showing up for practice when he felt like it. Sounded like he's the typical hot shot kid that thinks he's already made it. There could be more behind the scenes than TFC just playing hardball with him.

Hope it's not true for Canada's sake, as he won't have much of a career if true.

torfchamilton
07-27-2011, 07:40 AM
Aleman had 4 teams from Spain looking at him during the U17 World Cup. They say he's a special talent. What would you do in his case? Sign with TFC at $40K(if that) or try your luck in Europe at 16/17 when teams actually want you. Unfortunately his best move is probably to go to Europe and that is why he wouldn't sign. His agent has things line up for him and TFC were never in the cards.

menefreghista
07-27-2011, 07:45 AM
Under the newer FIFA rules, I don't think Aleman can sign for a European team until he turns 18. Unless he has a Euro passport.

He can play for TFC because its his domestic league.

torfchamilton
07-27-2011, 08:10 AM
He can sign and train but he can't play in a first team game until he is 18. Just like those Gambians here that were signed. They trained with the team and then when they turned 18 they were available for selection. Not sure where Aleman's roots are, but I would think he would start at the academy level. Secondly if his attitude is that bad he may be back in Canada sooner than you think.

Pookie
07-27-2011, 08:43 AM
Don't really get any angst over losing Aleman.

If he is "can't miss" and has Europe aspirations, he won't play in the MLS. If he falls short of expectations he will be an MLS player, of which there are plenty.

It could be a loss, it might not be. No sense worrying about it

ManUtd4ever
07-27-2011, 08:45 AM
As speculated, Aleman's MLS rights have been traded to Vancouver as the future considerations in the Dunfield deal.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/soccer/Jury+Whitecaps+deal+Aleman/5163199/story.html

If Aleman ends up signing with Vancouver, this will be a great deal from the Whitecaps perspective. However, as the article and others have suggested, Aleman has several trials in Europe lined up, so there are no guarantees that he will ever play in MLS.

Beach_Red
07-27-2011, 09:00 AM
Don't really get any angst over losing Aleman.

If he is "can't miss" and has Europe aspirations, he won't play in the MLS. If he falls short of expectations he will be an MLS player, of which there are plenty.

It could be a loss, it might not be. No sense worrying about it


This is exactly why I don't understand the importance people are putting on the academy. At best it will produce serviceable MLS players which, as you say, there are plenty.

ManUtd4ever
07-27-2011, 09:19 AM
This is exactly why I don't understand the importance people are putting on the academy. At best it will produce serviceable MLS players which, as you say, there are plenty.

I'm sorry, this is a completely presumptuous statement that is tainted with cynicism. The Academy could very well be the lifeblood of this organization, especially with the immense talent pool in Ontario. Granted, the occasional diamonds in the rough will move on to greener pastures overseas, but some of the Academy graduates that sign with the first team could evolve into impact players at the MLS level. Since MLS Academies are in their infancy stages for the most part, I will use the MLS Superdraft as a comparable example. Many talented young players that were drafted from the NCAA have been stellar players in MLS, but weren't quite good enough to attract interest from Europe.

Why is it that the TFC Academy in particular will only produce "serviceable players" at best for the first team?

ensco
07-27-2011, 09:36 AM
I'm sorry, this is a completely presumptuous statement that is tainted with cynicism.

It's not presumptious at all. What Beach Red describes is the current situation.

What you describe is a vision, an admirable vision, but one that is at odds with the current realities.

btw assuming that TFC Academy will draw from "Ontario", that is a loooong way away. There are many good academies in Ontario (looks like most are better than us).
http://www.soccerfame.com/team/tfc-academy/standings

They will spend years just fighting for a Toronto/GTA beachhead

Beach_Red
07-27-2011, 09:36 AM
^ Because that's all you can count on. NHL teams gave up owning feeder teams (essentially academies) when free agency became a factor and players started having full-time agents. You know you're going to lose the very top prospects so what's left?

Couchy81
07-27-2011, 09:42 AM
He can sign and train but he can't play in a first team game until he is 18. Just like those Gambians here that were signed. They trained with the team and then when they turned 18 they were available for selection. Not sure where Aleman's roots are, but I would think he would start at the academy level. Secondly if his attitude is that bad he may be back in Canada sooner than you think.

What age does FIFA consider you a minor? Under 18 or under 16? In the Sergio Camargo article it said a Portuguese team offered him compensation and a spot to train but he was only 15, which meant his parents were required to move to Portugal with him so they declined.

PopePouri
07-27-2011, 09:44 AM
This is exactly why I don't understand the importance people are putting on the academy. At best it will produce serviceable MLS players which, as you say, there are plenty.

The difference will be if we produce decent MLS players or starters that don't count against the cap and given that they don't go through the college system, it's more likely that they will not lose any development in between those 3 years.

ag futbol
07-27-2011, 09:56 AM
btw assuming that TFC Academy will draw from "Ontario", that is a loooong way away. There are many good academies in Ontario (looks like most are better than us).
http://www.soccerfame.com/team/tfc-academy/standings

They will spend years just fighting for a Toronto/GTA beachhead
This is what I have been arguing for a long time. The simple existance of the academy does not gaurantee its success. I would much rather see TFC go out and hire some established youth trainers from around the GTA (guys like Patrick Tobo or Rafael Carbajal) than play this game of patronage with former players.

I also think the inherent limitations of the way MLS allows you to operate will blunt the academy's success somewhat. This thing needs to be managed properly to be successful.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-27-2011, 10:03 AM
im going to wait and see the finished product before i make comments on how well the academy is working. i do like the idea of carbajal in there tho but doubt he'd be interested in only an academy position

Pachuco
07-27-2011, 10:20 AM
Don't really get any angst over losing Aleman.

If he is "can't miss" and has Europe aspirations, he won't play in the MLS. If he falls short of expectations he will be an MLS player, of which there are plenty.

It could be a loss, it might not be. No sense worrying about it

What the heck? Lets just dump the Academy then since there are plenty of MLS players around :rolleyes:

Shakes McQueen
07-27-2011, 10:33 AM
This is exactly why I don't understand the importance people are putting on the academy. At best it will produce serviceable MLS players which, as you say, there are plenty.

At best it will provide the team with above-average MLS players, along with the occasional diamond in the rough who will eventually be sold, and turned into additional allocation for the team, and money that must be spent on the club.

Not every good MLS player runs for the border, so saying that "serviceable" players are the best case scenario, is cynical.

- Scott

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 10:37 AM
At best it will provide the team with above-average MLS players, along with the occasional diamond in the rough who will eventually be sold, and turned into additional allocation for the team, and money that must be spent on the club.

Not every good MLS player runs for the border, so saying that "serviceable" players are the best case scenario, is cynical.

- Scott


I'd like to believe this, but is there evidence to this effect? As far as I can remember, Canada has had trouble retaining our top prospects. Of course, we are hoping that having teams in Canada will reverse that trend, but as far as I know, it's still just hope.

v00d00daddy
07-27-2011, 10:42 AM
At best it will provide the team with above-average MLS players, along with the occasional diamond in the rough who will eventually be sold, and turned into additional allocation for the team, and money that must be spent on the club.

Not every good MLS player runs for the border, so saying that "serviceable" players are the best case scenario, is cynical.

- Scott

I agree.

I also think that viewing TFC aspiring to create an environment where they produce good/great footballers out of the GTA as some kind of negative for TFC is incredibly cynical in general.

Next, cue the "how do we know it will even work" sentiment that has permeated every facet of the new regimes approach.

It's sad when they're trying to do something so desperately needed and getting shit on for doing so before anyone even knows what they're looking at.

Ahh well.

Shakes McQueen
07-27-2011, 10:44 AM
I'd like to believe this, but is there evidence to this effect? As far as I can remember, Canada has had trouble retaining our top prospects. Of course, we are hoping that having teams in Canada will reverse that trend, but as far as I know, it's still just hope.

Our top prospects, yes. And if that trend continues for the country, at least our club will be left with something to make us better, in the form of allocation, etc. Homegrowing our own Maurice Edu's every now and again still benefits the team, even if we transfer them.

But a prospect with the ability to be a simple above-average MLS lifer? Surely most of these players can be retained.

And like I said, this is a best case scenario. My issue was with the "best case scenario" being deemed nothing more than "serviceable" MLS players. That's cynical.

- Scott

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 10:48 AM
Sounds reasonable. I do think it's possible although I also agree we will lose more than we'd like.

Pookie
07-27-2011, 10:52 AM
This is exactly why I don't understand the importance people are putting on the academy. At best it will produce serviceable MLS players which, as you say, there are plenty.

There are plenty but that doesn't mean you throw out the Academy altogether. Far from it.

The Academy model is the path to improve our national standing. God (or Random Chance) knows that we can't rely on the Club system to do it.

An Academy attached to Toronto's system also might produce players that can grasp the system of the first team quicker than others. You are also well aware of their strengths and challenge areas which isn't something that comes from a scouting report. And then there are the transfers which boosts the club's bottom line and "legitimize" the philosophy for aspiring players. Success feeds itself.

As for drawing from Ontario, I think it is a little ambitious to think that a family from Thunder Bay might pack up and move to Toronto/or billet their teenager for a shot at a $42k starting job.

And ensco's comments regarding a fight for existence in the GTA is bang on. SAAC and the OSA have been going at it for years and while they are coming closer together, to think that the Club system can offer the same advantages of private academies (without asking parents for a $3-4k per year) is silly. Yet somehow, they are going to need to co-exist.

TFCA will also be looking to establish itself as being different from SAAC, and different from a new "elite" level within the Club model. To do so, it will have to do an amazing job in explaining contracts, rights and terms to parents who don't see any benefit in focusing on training when their club is winning trophies. It shall be an interesting next decade.

ManUtd4ever
07-27-2011, 10:54 AM
It's not presumptious at all. What Beach Red describes is the current situation.

What you describe is a vision, an admirable vision, but one that is at odds with the current realities.

btw assuming that TFC Academy will draw from "Ontario", that is a loooong way away. There are many good academies in Ontario (looks like most are better than us).
http://www.soccerfame.com/team/tfc-academy/standings

They will spend years just fighting for a Toronto/GTA beachhead

Actually, it doesn't describe the current situation at all. His post unequivocally states that the Academy will produce serviceable players at best, which is a clear reference to the future impact of an infrastucture that is still in it's infancy stages.

As for other football academies in the province, if you honestly believe that the new TFC Academy complex will not be the pinnacle of youth soccer development in Ontario, there's really no point in continuing this discussion.

Shakes McQueen
07-27-2011, 10:55 AM
Sounds reasonable. I do think it's possible although I also agree we will lose more than we'd like.

Sure, but I guess that just comes with the territory of not being a top-tier league, right?

The academy won't be all sunshine and rainbows, but the ability to bring up kids exactly how we want, and immerse them in exactly the style of football we want to play from a young age, will be great for us down the road.

There are lots of aspects of TFC that deserve a healthy dose of cynicism, but for me, the academy isn't one of them. I'm glad the team is taking it seriously.

- Scott

Greatest Ripoff
07-27-2011, 11:04 AM
btw assuming that TFC Academy will draw from "Ontario", that is a loooong way away. There are many good academies in Ontario (looks like most are better than us).
http://www.soccerfame.com/team/tfc-academy/standings

They will spend years just fighting for a Toronto/GTA beachhead

Correct me if I am wrong but don't you have to pay thousands a year to be in a private academy and the TFCA is free? I think that gives TFC a huge advantage over the private academies. Then add the fact that TFCA is a part of a major sports franchise and is building a $20 million training facility. I think the average family would pick TFCA for their child.

Keyman
07-27-2011, 11:04 AM
This board is so cynical. I think we should just stop Toronto FC all together, there's no evidence of us being successful in the past, so why would we be successful in the future?

Let's never aspire to anything more than mediocrity.

ManUtd4ever
07-27-2011, 11:10 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but don't you have to pay thousands a year to be in a private academy and the TFCA is free? I think that gives TFC a huge advantage over the private academies. Then add the fact that TFCA is a part of a major sports franchise and is building a $20 million training facility. I think the average family would pick TFCA for their child.

Why use logic in evaluating the possible ramifications of a 20 million dollar investment towards the most significant youth soccer development project in this country's history?

Pookie
07-27-2011, 11:10 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but don't you have to pay thousands a year to be in a private academy and the TFCA is free? I think that gives TFC a huge advantage over the private academies. Then add the fact that TFCA is a part of a major sports franchise and is building a $20 million training facility. I think the average family would pick TFCA for their child.

Nothing is ever free. If the free price results in restrictive movement rights for my child, I might think twice about it. Particularly if it was clear that his soccer future included a chance... read a chance... at a $42k starting job.

I might be more inclined to steer him down the NCAA path.

BTW, I am 100% in favour of TFCA and SAAC. I'd love to see the Club system shut down and re-launched using the philosophies of SAAC and TFCA as their foundation. I just don't think that TFCA is going to be for everyone. Particularly when we start speaking about youth in "Ontario."

Moving to or billeting your kid in the GTA can outweigh the "free" aspect pretty quickly. Many hockey parents do it. Compare the rookies salaries of the respective professional north american leagues and you can see why some make that investment. It just isn't there for soccer.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-27-2011, 11:14 AM
because the NCAA has a better rate of success?
not me, id hope for academy and if the kid was good enough even if he didnt stick with TFC which would surely have better training than 3 years in the NCAA that he'd stick else where

Ossington Mental Youth
07-27-2011, 11:14 AM
But yeah Keymans right.

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 11:17 AM
There are lots of aspects of TFC that deserve a healthy dose of cynicism, but for me, the academy isn't one of them. I'm glad the team is taking it seriously.

Yes and no. To me, having the academy is great. Having the academy concentrate on a philosophy and vision is great. Investing in the academy is great.

However...

I am still stuck on how they managed the 3 academy players that were released. I couldn't care less about Aleman himself, but the rigidity of management in this regards tells me that the ultimate benefit of the academy will concentrate on the low-to-middle-tier player. Due to the philosophy they intend on applying towards players, the best of the best will choose to go elsewhere, and to me that is a shame and a massive waste of an opportunity after investing so much in the academy. That is all.

ManUtd4ever
07-27-2011, 11:19 AM
This board is so cynical. I think we should just stop Toronto FC all together, there's no evidence of us being successful in the past, so why would we be successful in the future?

Let's never aspire to anything more than mediocrity.

I understand your sentiments, but a select few don't speak for the majority.

Pookie
07-27-2011, 11:20 AM
Rate of success of NCAA vs MLS Academies is hard to say. The Academies are just starting and if the NCAA starts to figure out how to make money off soccer like they did off hockey, then we will start to see development there too.

Even if Club Academies offer a better shot at the MLS, it really depends on what your goal is I guess.

A soccer career is generally about 4-5 years long. If a player starts out in the MLS at $42k and progresses to $100k and then gets injured or finds himself without options, he certainly doesn't have a life changing sum on his hands.

Now, some players might make the big bucks, get a transfer to Europe or whatever. But the average kid will fall into the example I noted above.

If that player went through the Academy route, he likely doesn't have a degree to fall back on. Not that a degree is the be all and end all. My grandfather did incredibly well without much more than high school. However, the stats say that those with University degrees make more than those without.

Parents have to make their choices and suggestions according to their goals.

Keyman
07-27-2011, 11:21 AM
I understand your sentiments, but a select few don't speak for the majority.

Yeah, sorry lol

Rethought my generalization but was too lazy to change it.

ManUtd4ever
07-27-2011, 11:25 AM
Yes and no. To me, having the academy is great. Having the academy concentrate on a philosophy and vision is great. Investing in the academy is great.

However...

I am still stuck on how they managed the 3 academy players that were released. I couldn't care less about Aleman himself, but the rigidity of management in this regards tells me that the ultimate benefit of the academy will concentrate on the low-to-middle-tier player. Due to the philosophy they intend on applying towards players, the best of the best will choose to go elsewhere, and to me that is a shame and a massive waste of an opportunity after investing so much in the academy. That is all.

Roogsy, does TFC's policy differ from other MLS Academies regarding the requirement to have players sign a letter of intent prior to turning 18 years of age? It's an honest question.

Doesn't every MLS Academy assume a substantial risk in investing significant time and resources into player development unless Academy prospects are willing to commit to the organization?

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 11:27 AM
My problem wasn't with the requirement to sign the letter. My position on this has been very clear. In fact, I understand that team's need to do it, it's prudent.

Keyman
07-27-2011, 11:31 AM
How long had Aleman been in our academy for?

Could a player's mindset change in the future (from the I'm heading to Europe at 18 if I'm talented) if they've been essentially raised as a footballer by Toronto FC?

ManUtd4ever
07-27-2011, 11:40 AM
How long had Aleman been in our academy for?

Could a player's mindset change in the future (from the I'm heading to Europe at 18 if I'm talented) if they've been essentially raised as a footballer by Toronto FC?

Good question. I would assume that in the overwhelming majority of cases, a player's loyalties would lie with the organization that bred him.

As for Aleman, I don't think he trained with the Academy for an extended period of time. However, contrary to statements made on this forum a couple of months ago, TFC was in fact able to receive a form of compensation (Terry Dunfield) for an Academy prospect that refused to commit to the organization, and may never end up playing in MLS.

menefreghista
07-27-2011, 11:46 AM
However, contrary to statements made on this forum a couple of months ago, TFC was in fact able to receive a form of compensation (Terry Dunfield) for an Academy prospect that refused to commit to the organization, and may never end up playing in MLS.

Didn't TFC also send allocation to Vancouver?

For all we know trading Aleman's MLS rights was a throw in.

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 11:52 AM
Didn't TFC also send allocation to Vancouver?

For all we know trading Aleman's MLS rights was a throw in.


It is a throw-in. The Aleman rights were not a dealbreaker in the Dunfield trade.

menefreghista
07-27-2011, 11:53 AM
It is a throw-in. The Aleman rights were not a dealbreaker in the Dunfield trade.

I think you could also argue that Vancouver was simply dumping Dunfield.

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 11:55 AM
Under Tietur Tots I don't think this trade happens but I am not sure that anyone understands what Schoen is trying to do here. I thought Vancouver had a better start to their season than TFC and looked to end on a better note than TFC, but after dumping TT, I think they've secured last place and booked themselves into heartbreak hotel. They will not have success under Schoen thats for sure, now or in the future.

TO DEVILS
07-27-2011, 11:56 AM
To me the current academy setup is flawed and will never produce anybody that you couldn't sign from USL, MLS or Draft.

For all intent and purpose the Academy is suppose to find talent at an early age, coach and develop it until the reach the point of joining the senior squad.

In theory sounds like a great plan but in reality it isn't.

If TFC finds and develops a player that by all accounts has a high ceiling for improvement this kid will have to make one of 3 choices, stay at the Academy, graduate to the senior level making 40K and hope to one day be able to make a living playing soccer, try to get a scholarship to the USA or move abroad.

If the TFC Academies and possible other MLS Academies want to produce quality players and offer them a viable alternative to the many others out there then they have to improve what they can offer NOW, and not sell the kids and parents the hopes and dreams of a brighter tomorrow.

What i think needs to happen for TFC's Academy and others to succeed in NA when they are not seen by quality prospects as a future (because they are not) is offer more than just a great facility and quality coaching.

By starts i think an education should go hand and hand with the senior players on TFC senior academy roster. Since we speak so much of Ajax, why not take a page of their books and sign an agreement with a respected Toronto University, and offer any player moving to the senior Academy a "contract" that while not providing real monetary compensation, offers a free education in a local university in a course of their choosing. This could be a yearly contract that would be renewed not only based on the performance of the player on the field but based on his academics.

This would give many parents and players an incentive to stay committed to TFC in the short term and a goal to those entering the youth system to strive for in the future.

The 2nd step on this "plan" would be a rectification of the MLS salary cap to not include Academy player salaries in the overall team salary cap as long as they played in 20% of the games of the senior squad.

This would allow for teams to play their talented youth better, hold them in house longer since there would be no appeal of bigger bucks abroad, and also motivate teams to produce from within instead of looking for people on the outside. The other side to this is that it would help Canada in the development of future NT players, this to me is and shouldn't be the responsibility of TFC but it is a nice added bonus.

Until the Academy systems at TFC and MLS work towards a plan/setup that has these 2 components to it, the Academy as a real producer of talent is an Utopia.

Because if i was 16 years old, and knowing i can either get an education for free in the USA and then enter the draft or go to Europe, staying at TFC to one day earn 40K would be the last option i would look at.

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 11:57 AM
I agree with everything here.

SilverSamurai
07-27-2011, 12:05 PM
To me the current academy setup is flawed and will never produce anybody that you couldn't sign from USL, MLS or Draft.

For all intent and purpose the Academy is suppose to find talent at an early age, coach and develop it until the reach the point of joining the senior squad.

In theory sounds like a great plan but in reality it isn't.

If TFC finds and develops a player that by all accounts has a high ceiling for improvement this kid will have to make one of 3 choices, stay at the Academy, graduate to the senior level making 40K and hope to one day be able to make a living playing soccer, try to get a scholarship to the USA or move abroad.

If the TFC Academies and possible other MLS Academies want to produce quality players and offer them a viable alternative to the many others out there then they have to improve what they can offer NOW, and not sell the kids and parents the hopes and dreams of a brighter tomorrow.

What i think needs to happen for TFC's Academy and others to succeed in NA when they are not seen by quality prospects as a future (because they are not) is offer more than just a great facility and quality coaching.

By starts i think an education should go hand and hand with the senior players on TFC senior academy roster. Since we speak so much of Ajax, why not take a page of their books and sign an agreement with a respected Toronto University, and offer any player moving to the senior Academy a "contract" that while not providing real monetary compensation, offers a free education in a local university in a course of their choosing. This could be a yearly contract that would be renewed not only based on the performance of the player on the field but based on his academics.

This would give many parents and players an incentive to stay committed to TFC in the short term and a goal to those entering the youth system to strive for in the future.

The 2nd step on this "plan" would be a rectification of the MLS salary cap to not include Academy player salaries in the overall team salary cap as long as they played in 20% of the games of the senior squad.

This would allow for teams to play their talented youth better, hold them in house longer since there would be no appeal of bigger bucks abroad, and also motivate teams to produce from within instead of looking for people on the outside. The other side to this is that it would help Canada in the development of future NT players, this to me is and shouldn't be the responsibility of TFC but it is a nice added bonus.

Until the Academy systems at TFC and MLS work towards a plan/setup that has these 2 components to it, the Academy as a real producer of talent is an Utopia.

Because if i was 16 years old, and knowing i can either get an education for free in the USA and then enter the draft or go to Europe, staying at TFC to one day earn 40K would be the last option i would look at.
While I agree with what you're saying, using "sport" to get an education is 1 of those things that differ b/w Canada and the US.
Now if the player got accepted into university vs. being "gifted" a la NCAA, then I could understand.

TO DEVILS
07-27-2011, 12:09 PM
While I agree with what you're saying, using "sport" to get an education is 1 of those things that differ b/w Canada and the US.
Now if the player got accepted into university vs. being "gifted" a la NCAA, then I could understand.

The school is not gifting anybody.

TFC is paying for their players education, there is a huge difference in what i am suggesting and what NCAA does. To me this would show that the club not only cares about the future of the player as a footballer but also as a person in case his career doesn't pan out as he or they would hope.

To me this is critical in a sport where the vast majority barely makes a living as a pro soccer player.

Section 117
07-27-2011, 12:28 PM
Actually if a player that is with the academy is eligible to play in the NCAA. The letter which these players were asked to sign is a standard contracts which all academies in Europe have. It protects the clubs from having players jump ship after while when money has been invested in them.

TO DEVILS
07-27-2011, 12:48 PM
Actually if a player that is with the academy is eligible to play in the NCAA. The letter which these players were asked to sign is a standard contracts which all academies in Europe have. It protects the clubs from having players jump ship after while when money has been invested in them.

I didn't say he wasn't. What i said is that most will pick the NCAA route over staying long term with TFC, because you can get an education as well as a chance to go pro.

I think TFC did a real disservice to those kids they turned pro at the beginning of the season, because they have not been given any play time, and now they are ineligible to go to NCAA.

I am not against TFC asking players to sign an agreement....i just think there has to be more given to the player than just the promise of a good facility and good coaching, otherwise you risk losing a player that was worth keeping, and the ones you do keep are not worth the investment.

Beach_Red
07-27-2011, 12:49 PM
Good question. I would assume that in the overwhelming majority of cases, a player's loyalties would lie with the organization that bred him.



More likely it lies with the agent that signed him, that's probably the more permanent relationship. Coaches, managers, trainers, all the personel in the organization will come and go.

This "loyalty" issue has been around since players first gained the rights of free agency. There are not many players in many sports that spend more than a few years with a single organization before moving on. Hell, the entire workforce is like that now in almost every industry. For those of us who've always been freelancers it isn't unusual at all.

PopePouri
07-27-2011, 12:57 PM
More likely it lies with the agent that signed him, that's probably the more permanent relationship. Coaches, managers, trainers, all the personel in the organization will come and go.

This "loyalty" issue has been around since players first gained the rights of free agency. There are not many players in many sports that spend more than a few years with a single organization before moving on. Hell, the entire workforce is like that now in almost every industry. For those of us who've always been freelancers it isn't unusual at all.

I don't think it's that simplistic.

Roogsy
07-27-2011, 01:05 PM
I am not against TFC asking players to sign an agreement....i just think there has to be more given to the player than just the promise of a good facility and good coaching, otherwise you risk losing a player that was worth keeping, and the ones you do keep are not worth the investment.


Bang fucking on.

maninb
07-27-2011, 01:14 PM
Sure, but I guess that just comes with the territory of not being a top-tier league, right?

The academy won't be all sunshine and rainbows, but the ability to bring up kids exactly how we want, and immerse them in exactly the style of football we want to play from a young age, will be great for us down the road.

There are lots of aspects of TFC that deserve a healthy dose of cynicism, but for me, the academy isn't one of them. I'm glad the team is taking it seriously.

- Scott

well said...

CretanBull
07-27-2011, 01:15 PM
uh no we wouldn't, that's the whole point

Yes, we would have - and we gave up our right to compensation when we released him. If we kept him as a registered player (no pay, no letter of intent - just registered as TFC academy player) we could have been entitled to training compensation if he left us. When we released him, we surrendered that right to compensation because he is no longer a registered TFC academy player.

People keep saying that we made this move so that we wouldn't lose him for nothing, when in reality this move ensured that we would lose him for nothing.

We didn't get Dunfield for him. We traded allocation money and Aleman's MLS rights for Dunfield. We would have still owned Aleman's MLS rights if he left us for Europe, so its a deal that we still could have made with them.

ensco
07-27-2011, 03:53 PM
As for other football academies in the province, if you honestly believe that the new TFC Academy complex will not be the pinnacle of youth soccer development in Ontario, there's really no point in continuing this discussion.

Isn't this question the entire point of having the discussion?

JuliquE
11-15-2011, 09:00 PM
Couldn't find a more appropriate thread to post this in, so feel free to merge my post elsewhere.

There was an interesting little mention, over the Canada v. St. Kitts broadcast, which touched on the contract issue Attakora had with TFC. He was said to have quickly dismissed ANY talk of an issue with Aron Winter, prior to the trade.

Apparently he has lost both his grandmothers, this year and has admittedly been all out of sorts. Don't remember the quote, exactly, but he said that Winter was very understanding and supportive of him, during that time; he was very grateful for this and noted that Aron understood to give him some time/space to sort himself out.

Just found that rather intriguing, given the conversations had on these boards over all of this.

Canary10
11-15-2011, 09:37 PM
Yeah, just happened to catch that while on a bathroom break. :)

I have always thought Winter is quality. He was a standout player on a Dutch team where lots of other players (Gullit and Van Basten for example) got more of the attention. He didn't complain and just did his thing to contribute. We're in good hands.

TFC/Everton
11-16-2011, 07:34 AM
Yeah, just happened to catch that while on a bathroom break. :)

I have always thought Winter is quality. He was a standout player on a Dutch team where lots of other players (Gullit and Van Basten for example) got more of the attention. He didn't complain and just did his thing to contribute. We're in good hands.

Well said. We are in good hands.