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TFC USA
07-09-2011, 09:26 PM
We've lost 9 games this MLS season, 8 of them have come by 2 goals or more. Today is no exception. 2-0 Houston in another shitshow.

Eckersley is suspended next game due to yellow accumulation.

But hey, Frings and Koevermans will make things ALL better, right?!

Discuss away.

Nuvinho
07-09-2011, 09:28 PM
We didn't give up 5 goals this game.......nice!!!

Azerban
07-09-2011, 09:28 PM
And thats why you go to the games to get drunk and not support your team the way you should ... your making me laugh! I'll remember to catch your posts when this team starts winning. If tfc wins your buying me a Frings Kit and i'll do the same if they loose... care to make a wager son.

remember this shit

should have said yes, but i would've felt terrible taking candy from a baby with particularly poor judgment

Nuvinho
07-09-2011, 09:29 PM
We need Freakin' CBs

shaggingscot
07-09-2011, 09:30 PM
Don't usually post in these threads but....we're shite and play most matches without passion.
Can't wait until MLSE sells off their sports teams!

TFC_Chris
07-09-2011, 09:30 PM
At least it wasn't 5-0.

Most players were invisible tonight. Gordon turned the clock back about 15 years and played like he was 12, rolling around on the ground and losing the ball at every turn.

The biggest killer tonight was our first touch. Seriously, I bet Michael Jackson has a better first touch. Too soon?

Borman was pretty decent until being subbed off. Tchani wasn't half bad either.

DichioTFC
07-09-2011, 09:31 PM
Frei postgame with Andi

Need consistency in the back. Need to gel more. 4-5 games in a row with the same guys in the back, but just wasn't meant to be.

Missed the rest of it...

Soccerpro
07-09-2011, 09:31 PM
We need Freakin' CBs

When you lose without registering a single shot on the opposition's net, you need more than CB's...

DichioTFC
07-09-2011, 09:31 PM
At least it wasn't 5-0.

Most players were invisible tonight. Gordon turned the clock back about 15 years and played like he was 12, rolling around on the ground and losing the ball at every turn.

The biggest killer tonight was our first touch. Seriously, I bet Michael Jackson has a better first touch. Too soon?

Borman was pretty decent until being subbed off. Tchani wasn't half bad either.

Disagree. I"m a big Tchani fan, but he was totally out of it the entire second half.

Batman
07-09-2011, 09:32 PM
I cant get too worked up about this.. maybe I'm just getting used to it.

ExiledRed
07-09-2011, 09:32 PM
HEre comes the apocalypse!

Do something Aron!

errrrr.........Aron!

zombies!

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/zombies.jpg

Nuvinho
07-09-2011, 09:32 PM
When you lose without registering a single shot on the opposition's net, you need more than CB's...

When you have a striker coming in and another midfielder (although a DM) who can also score - ....you need CBs.

ag futbol
07-09-2011, 09:33 PM
Watching that game it strikes me the players have quit on the team, which is a scary prospect going forward regardless of the 2 DP’s coming.

DichioTFC
07-09-2011, 09:33 PM
HEre comes the apocalypse!

Do something Aron!

errrrr.........Aron!

zombies!

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/zombies.jpg


"uh.... its a pity about these zombies.... but we have a system to account for the zombies"

torontocelt
07-09-2011, 09:34 PM
Too much progress being made too soon. This is not Winter's team, remember that it was Winter who introduced the 'system', he's a freaking genius. The players may be struggling a bit with the complexities of the 'system' but at least they are giving it their all and showing they can play football. It is just a matter of time before Winter's dream becomes a nightmare for all MLS teams.

CSO_BBTB
07-09-2011, 09:34 PM
Think we needed a win in one of the last two games to keep playoffs in almost realistic rather than mathematical reach. Time to prioritize the CCL, in my opinion. The Real Esteli games are very important now. Hopefully the two new DPs will hit the ground running. If I were Winter I'd be organizing a couple of closed door exhibition games against CSL teams over the next 11 days to get the team used to playing with Koevermans and Frings.

TFC USA
07-09-2011, 09:35 PM
Are we going to challenge New York (or was it RSL) for fewest wins in an MLS season?

This is worse than the other 4 seasons. Seriously.

Lennon
07-09-2011, 09:35 PM
We played worse then Wednesday vs. NY.

cochrdoc
07-09-2011, 09:36 PM
after we gave up a goal the boys seemed to feel they were beaten

TFC USA
07-09-2011, 09:36 PM
Too much progress being made too soon. This is not Winter's team, remember that it was Winter who introduced the 'system', he's a freaking genius. The players may be struggling a bit with the complexities of the 'system' but at least they are giving it their all and showing they can play football. It is just a matter of time before Winter's dream becomes a nightmare for all MLS teams.

LOL thanks for the laugh. I know sarcasm when I see it.

Heathen
07-09-2011, 09:36 PM
HEre comes the apocalypse!

Do something Aron!

errrrr.........Aron!

zombies!

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/zombies.jpg

Lol at Lance Armstrong

CSO_BBTB
07-09-2011, 09:36 PM
HEre comes the apocalypse!

Do something Aron!

errrrr.........Aron!

zombies!

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/zombies.jpg

Do we really need this right now? TFC are not Liverpool where getting rid of a coach and bringing in somebody new can quickly turn things around.

Nuvinho
07-09-2011, 09:37 PM
Of our starting XI - you can probably count on one hand the number of players who would be starters on other MLS teams.

Even looking at Houston's bench...all of them could start for us.

Nicholas982
07-09-2011, 09:38 PM
HEre comes the apocalypse!

Do something Aron!

errrrr.........Aron!

zombies!

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/zombies.jpg


You're really pushing that "Out-of-it-Aaron" meme huh? I can't say it doesn't ring true. :D

Can't wait for Walking Dead season 2.

edit: The worst thing we could do right now is fire another manager. It's all about the CCL now. Give him next year and if we're not significantly better, then can him by all means.

cochrdoc
07-09-2011, 09:39 PM
What excuses are we going to have for tonite.WE can`t defend and we don`t create much.I don`t think some of the team realize that they are not good enough to play in this league

ManUtd4ever
07-09-2011, 09:40 PM
Tonight was painful to watch. Hopefully it will mark the end of an absolutely dreadful regular season run that has been mired with uninspired performances and patchwork lineups.

Let's hope July 20th will mark a new beginning for this club with better times ahead for the organization and it's beleaguered supporters.

J .
07-09-2011, 09:40 PM
hey, at least we didn't get embarrassed.

Nuvinho
07-09-2011, 09:40 PM
What excuses are we going to have for tonite.WE can`t defend and we don`t create much.I don`t think some of the team realize that they are not good enough to play in this league

The heat - TFC will blame the heat, not the lack of talent, heart, or desire

swan
07-09-2011, 09:41 PM
You're really pushing that "Out-of-it-Aaron" meme huh? I can't say it doesn't ring true. :D

Can't wait for Walking Dead season 2.

edit: The worst thing we could do right now is fire another manager. It's all about the CCL now. Give him next year and if we're not significantly better, then can him by all means.

fuck ya me to..

TFCRegina
07-09-2011, 09:41 PM
We've lost 9 games this MLS season, 8 of them have come by 2 goals or more. Today is no exception. 2-0 Houston in another shitshow.

Eckersley is suspended next game due to yellow accumulation.

But hey, Frings and Koevermans will make things ALL better, right?!

Discuss away.

Even with those two, we still need a CB to reinforce our porous D.

swan
07-09-2011, 09:42 PM
hey, at least we didn't get embarrassed.

really.. i'm embarrassed

Kooper
07-09-2011, 09:42 PM
Do we really need this right now? TFC are not Liverpool where getting rid of a coach and bringing in somebody new can quickly turn things around.

Agreed. If we fire Winter we might as well cancel Klinsman's contract because Winter, I assume, was Klinsman's suggestion. We have tried panicing at the end of every season and firing the coach and that has lead us to the bottom of the pack every year. Why not let one man have the team for a couple of years. What is the worst that could happen? Dead last again? we will be there anyhow next year because of it will be another 'rebuilding year'.

DichioTFC
07-09-2011, 09:43 PM
I say we get a new logo in honour of our team's defense this season

http://rlv.zcache.com/rubber_traffic_cone_pylon_tshirt-p235817475323495014syih_400.jpg

reggie
07-09-2011, 09:43 PM
thank god training camp is finally over,cant wait for the season to start on july20th..

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 09:43 PM
We need Freakin' CBs

we need cbs
we need sts
we need rws
we need lws
we need mfs
all we have is frei
and an over paid de guzeman

DichioTFC
07-09-2011, 09:44 PM
Do we really need this right now? TFC are not Liverpool where getting rid of a coach and bringing in somebody new can quickly turn things around.

Take it easy dude. It's a joke. Winter is not the main issue right now, nobody said anything about firing him.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 09:44 PM
[QUOTE=DichioTFC;1336726]I say we get a new logo in honour of our team's defense this season


LOL

torontocelt
07-09-2011, 09:44 PM
HEre comes the apocalypse!

Do something Aron!

errrrr.........Aron!

zombies!

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/zombies.jpg


This actual picture of Aron (not including the zombies) could become as iconic for TFC fans as the one of Steve Mcclaren was for England when he was standing on the sidelines with his umbrella, both of them look bloody clueless.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 09:46 PM
Take it easy dude. It's a joke. Winter is not the main issue right now, nobody said anything about firing him.

winter is amazing
he has nothing to work with
thats the problem
everything went to hell in the back when cann and attakora went down

CSO_BBTB
07-09-2011, 09:47 PM
Of our starting XI - you can probably count on one hand the number of players who would be starters on other MLS teams....

Even somebody like Jose Mourinho would struggle with the players we have available for selection right now. The time to judge Winter is when the injury crisis clears up and the new spine to the team is more or less in place. Beyond that it's comic to see people making out 4-3-3/4-5-1 is some kind of exotic system that is beyond average players. Winter gave up on the more challenging "point backwards" Ajax stuff weeks ago and is using a relatively mundane 4-2-3-1 formation right now that even amateur teams can easily get their heads around.

DichioTFC
07-09-2011, 09:48 PM
Even somebody like Jose Mourinho would struggle with the players we have available for selection right now. The time to judge Winter is when the injury crisis clears up and the new spine to the team is more or less in place. Beyond that it's comic to see people making out 4-3-3/4-5-1 is some kind of exotic system that is beyond average players. Winter gave up on the more challenging "point backwards" Ajax stuff weeks ago and is using a relatively mundane 4-2-3-1 formation right now that even amateur teams can easily get their heads around.

Push fullbacks up. Wait for attacking players to cough up the ball. Counter down the wings.

ag futbol
07-09-2011, 09:49 PM
winter is amazing
he has nothing to work with
thats the problem
everything went to hell in the back when cann and attakora went down
That's funny, because i could have swore we kept Attakora on the bench for three months in favor of Harden.

torontocelt
07-09-2011, 09:50 PM
Winter gave up on the more challenging "point backwards" Ajax stuff weeks ago and is using a relatively mundane 4-2-3-1 formation right now that even amateur teams can easily get their heads around.

It's official : Winter's TFC worse than amateur teams.

Nuvinho
07-09-2011, 09:51 PM
Winter, "I am going to trade players", "I have a lack of quality" (to paraphrase his interview)

11 days from now - I better at least 2 new people at the back.

Azerban
07-09-2011, 09:51 PM
winter is amazing
he has nothing to work with
thats the problem
everything went to hell in the back when cann and attakora went down

it's true, once the two guys he didn't bring in went down, the people he did bring in proved useless

wait

how is he amazing again

reggie
07-09-2011, 09:51 PM
ok can we finally cut gargan,harden peterson..plz

Roogsy
07-09-2011, 09:52 PM
For once, Roogsy is going to be positive after an ugly loss.

At least we're not in last place...



There....are the blind-faithers happy now?

DichioTFC
07-09-2011, 09:52 PM
http://www.gelman.gwu.edu/eckles-library/news/actually-homer-the-end-is-here/imagehttp://www.scificool.com/images/2008/06/simpsons.jpghttp://www.scificool.com/images/2008/06/simpsons.jpg

Only 530 more days until the end of the Mayan calendar! :D

Kooper
07-09-2011, 09:53 PM
I am now watching Aliens Vs Predator on Spike. That way at least you know the team you are rooting for is going to be eaten alive.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 09:54 PM
That's funny, because i could have swore we kept Attakora on the bench for three months in favor of Harden.


how is that funny?
and what does this have to do with harden
yes its a shame that he sat out
i am still waiting for the official reason as to why they kept him out
you use players when you need them
winter gave him the chance to fill the role
i think he would of filled that role nicely

LesH
07-09-2011, 09:54 PM
I cant get too worked up about this.. maybe I'm just getting used to it.

Almost all of us getting too used to it, so we don't even feel to rant any more, eh.

About the game?
What else to say than what I posted a few minutes before game start in the pre match/match thread:


I'm really pumped up for another shitsHOW!

(Have been advised by Klinsmann how to avoid disappointment with our beloved TFC :hump:)

:scarf::scarf::scarf::scarf:

Good nite all!

Nuvinho
07-09-2011, 09:54 PM
Wonder if Houston will trade Bobby Boswell now that he has lost his starting job?

reggie
07-09-2011, 09:54 PM
dero scores for dc to beat the shitebulls..good for him..this is for you roogsy

CSO_BBTB
07-09-2011, 09:55 PM
It's official : Winter's TFC worse than amateur teams.

In reality if Winter's TFC played against an OSL team right now they'd be able to score goals for fun. If you support a team like Liverpool or Celtic you are used to your side having a massive salary budget advantage over most opponents and therefore having players in reserve that can still win games when there area few injuries and suspensions. In MLS with competitive parity and a low salary cap a long injury list means any team with any coach is likely to struggle. That's the reality of following MLS. It isn't a league where it's easy to bask in the reflected glory of a side that buys success season after season.

Stryker
07-09-2011, 09:55 PM
Kovermans won't score a single goal if we can't get him the ball. Im convinced we need both JDG and Frings pressing forward from center midfield.

LW------Kovermans-------RW
-----Frings-------JDG--------
-----------Tchani------------
LB-----CB--------CB-------RB

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 09:55 PM
it's true, once the two guys he didn't bring in went down, the people he did bring in proved useless

wait

how is he amazing again

lol i am starting to second guess my comment
how is he amazing? lol

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 09:56 PM
ok can we finally cut gargan,harden peterson..plz

peterson is a solid player
at least thats what i think

ag futbol
07-09-2011, 09:57 PM
how is that funny?
and what does this have to do with harden
yes its a shame that he sat out
i am still waiting for the official reason as to why they kept him out
you use players when you need them
winter gave him the chance to fill the role
i think he would of filled that role nicely
The point is you can't complain about the guy being injured if he was going to be the second choice to someone who is currently on the field.

moralis
07-09-2011, 09:57 PM
Winter talks about trading players, what MLS team would want these TFC players, a lot of them are crap. Plain and simple. How many International spots do we have.

How is Winter and Mariner going to change this team? I don't know how they can.

What do you realistically think can be done with the roster?

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 09:59 PM
In reality if Winter's TFC played against an OSL team right now they'd be able to score goals for fun. If you support a team like Liverpool or Celtic you are used to your side having a massive salary budget advantage over most opponents and therefore having players in reserve that can still win games when there area few injuries and suspensions. In MLS with competitive parity and a low salary cap a long injury list means any team with any coach is likely to struggle. That's the reality of following MLS. It isn't a league where it's easy to bask in the reflected glory of a side that buys success season after season.


100% CORRECT.
but mls quality is like a second or third division in a normal european league
i wonder how tfc would play against japans women's world cup side...

Heathen
07-09-2011, 10:00 PM
winter is amazing
he has nothing to work with
thats the problem
everything went to hell in the back when cann and attakora went down

Care to provide some evidence to back that up please

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:01 PM
The point is you can't complain about the guy being injured if he was going to be the second choice to someone who is currently on the field.


was he going to be the second choice?
or was he in contract dispute

Heathen
07-09-2011, 10:02 PM
how is that funny?
and what does this have to do with harden
yes its a shame that he sat out
i am still waiting for the official reason as to why they kept him out
you use players when you need them
winter gave him the chance to fill the role
i think he would of filled that role nicely


you should write Haikus

CSO_BBTB
07-09-2011, 10:02 PM
Kovermans won't score a single goal if we can't get him the ball. Im convinced we need both JDG and Frings pressing forward from center midfield.

LW------Kovermans-------RW
-----Frings-------JDG--------
-----------Tchani------------
LB-----CB--------CB-------RB

Santos at the top of the triangle and Frings plus A.N.Other sitting in front of the defence is the way to go for now, in my opinion. Big thing is getting centre back sorted out again so Eckersley and Yourassowsky can play right and left fullback consistently. That's where a trade potentially makes sense.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:02 PM
Care to provide some evidence to back that up please


i already said above
i had to second think that one lol

DichioTFC
07-09-2011, 10:02 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/1r96hk.png

lol joining in on the Winter fun

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:05 PM
lol joining in on the Winter fun[/QUOTE]



ok ok this pic made me happy again
i will now watch the shitecaps game and eat 7 cookies for the 7 goals we let in this week.

reggie
07-09-2011, 10:06 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/1r96hk.png

lol joining in on the Winter fun
lmao....watchout for the bullshit.

Heathen
07-09-2011, 10:07 PM
ok ok this pic made me happy again
i will now watch the shitecaps game and eat 7 cookies for the 7 goals we let in this week.

That will just depress you more, White caps are putting up much more of an effort against the MLS Champs than we did tonight. In fact regardless of beating them twice last week I'd say Vancouver are a better team than us right now.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:07 PM
lol joining in on the Winter fun



ok ok this pic made me happy again
i will now watch the shitecaps game and eat 7 cookies for the 7 goals we let in this week.[/QUOTE]


holy jesus
tell me how we beat these guys again twice in a row?
what would we have done without the penalty shots and the dero goal
ooo poor dero thanks for getting us through

torontocelt
07-09-2011, 10:07 PM
In reality if Winter's TFC played against an OSL team right now they'd be able to score goals for fun. If you support a team like Liverpool or Celtic you are used to your side having a massive salary budget advantage over most opponents and therefore having players in reserve that can still win games when there area few injuries and suspensions. In MLS with competitive parity and a low salary cap a long injury list means any team with any coach is likely to struggle. That's the reality of following MLS. It isn't a league where it's easy to bask in the reflected glory of a side that buys success season after season.

Not going to argue with you there but I dont rate Winter as a manager and I think other managers in his position would have recorded a better league record than played 20, won 3, drawn 8, lost 9. I'm also not going to apologize for supporting a team that is domestically successful and I will bask in the glory of any competition Celtic wins. For the record I support three teams, Celtic, Toronto and Scotland, of these three only one is successful. Ask Scotland fans if they enjoyed the pumpings Berti Vogts got us even though he was trying to bring youth through, no one did and ultimately he paid the price. His time was up and we were all relieved to see the back of him. In fact after he left Walter Smith and Alex McLeish brought back a bit of Scottish pride to the team and country almost immediately, something bumbling Bertie could not. Good managers can accomplish a lot.

Kooper
07-09-2011, 10:08 PM
That's the reality of following MLS. It isn't a league where it's easy to bask in the reflected glory of a side that buys success season after season.

Except that MLSE has tried to buy sucess the last 3 seasons. Mista, JDG, Dero, Stephanovic, etc... and we have always failed.

lobo
07-09-2011, 10:10 PM
so .... what's new?

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:10 PM
That will just depress you more, White caps are putting up much more of an effort against the MLS Champs than we did tonight. In fact regardless of beating them twice last week I'd say Vancouver are a better team than us right now.


i agree
they actually take shots on net ha ha
i wonder why they dumped thordarson
but its shitecaps or garbage copa america (they need hd capabilities)
or repeat of england france

Jenkins12
07-09-2011, 10:14 PM
Do we really need this right now? TFC are not Liverpool where getting rid of a coach and bringing in somebody new can quickly turn things around.

I agree about the turning it around quickly bit, but Liverpool? What have they done except buy a few over-priced players?

Shit squad, Yourassowsky is a joke, as are Martina, Peterson, Harden, Borman, Gargan.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:15 PM
i feel like returning the two rain jackets i bought this week
five years i gave my soul to this team
and they cant even give me a shot on net

ExiledRed
07-09-2011, 10:15 PM
Do we really need this right now? TFC are not Liverpool where getting rid of a coach and bringing in somebody new can quickly turn things around.

Im just having a bit of fun John, this is actually tame compared to what Mo was getting from his detractors three games into his tenure.

Please stop with the 'thinking were like Liverpool' shit already. I'm not making the comparison, team development is different here and likewise, supporting in this league has to take a much different approach for as many reasons. I realised a long time ago that this team isnt going to be a bit like Liverpool, and Im also fine with that, Im not going to let it ruin my support, and I dont. I still bring it to the game, Ive a right to express my opinion in visual satire form on the internet though, surely?

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:16 PM
I agree about the turning it around quickly bit, but Liverpool? What have they done except buy a few over-priced players?


true
liverpool is a bad example

moralis
07-09-2011, 10:16 PM
Aron Winter's post-game comments on GOL TV Canada:

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp

Never seen him so angry. Does he mean trade, cut or both?

reggie
07-09-2011, 10:16 PM
i never watch road games...did gordon play?

Kooper
07-09-2011, 10:16 PM
I agree about the turning it around quickly bit, but Liverpool? What have they done except buy a few over-priced players?

I think he is pointing out that if Liverpool kept Hodgson they would have been relegated. Kenny saved their season and almost got them back into Europe.

Stryker
07-09-2011, 10:17 PM
I agree about the turning it around quickly bit, but Liverpool? What have they done except buy a few over-priced players?

Shit squad, Yourassowsky is a joke, as are Martina, Peterson, Harden, Borman, Gargan.
They sold an even more over priced player to Chelsea. :)

Heathen
07-09-2011, 10:17 PM
i feel like returning the two rain jackets i bought this week
five years i gave my soul to this team
and they cant even give me a shot on net

Don't do it! it'll rain again someday :)

Roogsy
07-09-2011, 10:17 PM
Please stop with the 'thinking were like Liverpool' shit already.

Seriously. It's a complete red herring and it's annoying. Nobody is making those comparisons and yet he contends that people are.

The comparisons we should and are making are against other MLS teams. You know, the ones we have a financial advantage over for the most part and yet are about a dozen goals poorer.

jazzy
07-09-2011, 10:18 PM
Disagree. I"m a big Tchani fan, but he was totally out of it the entire second half.

agreed, as someone mentioned earlier he's playing scared same as others..so many touches/passes into nowhere land ...Winters is right when we are useless doing the small things, like passing on target...lol.....it'll be a while

Blowing Bubbles
07-09-2011, 10:20 PM
you know what I love?

when TFC game threads get derailed into dick waving over EPL & SPL club arguments.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:20 PM
Im just having a bit of fun John, this is actually tame compared to what Mo was getting from his detractors three games into his tenure.

Please stop with the 'thinking were like Liverpool' shit already. I'm not making the comparison, team development is different here and likewise, supporting in this league has to take a much different approach for as many reasons. I realised a long time ago that this team isnt going to be a bit like Liverpool, and Im also fine with that, Im not going to let it ruin my support, and I dont. I still bring it to the game, Ive a right to express my opinion in visual satire form on the internet though, surely?


i can tell you are dedicated to this team / game
good stuff.
tfc is my entire life.
soccer is my life.
(and it takes 4 months to become a red patch member... still waiting)
i wonder if they want me to process applications during my down time at work.

torontocelt
07-09-2011, 10:20 PM
I think he is pointing out that if Liverpool kept Hodgson they would have been relegated. Kenny saved their season and almost got them back into Europe.

King Kenny, a big example of one manager who got more out of his players than the previous manager despite largely having the same players at his disposal. I;m not saying Roy is a bad manager overall but he was for Liverpool, good managers can do great things and should be able to get the best out of the players they have at their disposal. I refuse to believe that Winter has got the best out of the players he has at his disposal however limited they may be.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:22 PM
Don't do it! it'll rain again someday :)

ha ha
you make me laugh
this 2 0 loss is starting to feel ok
until i watch the repeat 700 times in goltv sunday and monday and tuesday....

Stouffville_RPB
07-09-2011, 10:23 PM
I would love to know how Houston got two break aways. Unfortunately the camera work did not allow that.

ManUtd4ever
07-09-2011, 10:23 PM
The comparisons we should and are making are against other MLS teams. You know, the ones we have a financial advantage over for the most part and yet are about a dozen goals poorer.

Fair comment. At least MLSE has decided to utilize that advantage in signing 3 designated players. The balance of the season will determine if it will translate into tangible results on the pitch.

Roogsy
07-09-2011, 10:25 PM
King Kenny, a big example of one manager who got more out of his players than the previous manager despite largely having the same players at his disposal. I;m not saying Roy is a bad manager overall but he was for Liverpool, good managers can do great things and should be able to get the best out of the players they have at their disposal. I refuse to believe that Winter has got the best out of the players he has at his disposal however limited they may be.

I think this is something that is majorly overlooked among TFC fans. Everyone admits that the quality is poor. The question here is: Is Winter getting the most out of his current players? In my opinion, no it would be very difficult to believe that he has. Which begs the follow-up question: Will he be able to get the most out of the incoming players? It's hard to believe that somehow his coaching abilities will improve dramatically just because he has higher quality players.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:25 PM
i would like to know why people dont like perterson
i think he is a reliable mls starter

DichioTFC
07-09-2011, 10:26 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/2r62mn4.png


Lost Winter continues....

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:27 PM
I think this is something that is majorly overlooked among TFC fans. Everyone admits that the quality is poor. The question here is: Is Winter getting the most out of his current players? In my opinion, no it would be very difficult to believe that he has. Which begs the follow-up question: Will he be able to get the most out of the incoming players? It's hard to believe that somehow his coaching abilities will improve dramatically just because he has higher quality players.


but why do you think he is not getting the most of them?
in which ways?

Kooper
07-09-2011, 10:27 PM
Aron Winter's post-game comments on GOL TV Canada:

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp

Never seen him so angry. Does he mean trade, cut or both?

I am tired of players, coaches and fans complaining about the fouls that were and were not called. We didn't get a shot on net. The ref didn't cause us to play badly every minute of the game.

Beach_Red
07-09-2011, 10:27 PM
ok can we finally cut gargan,harden peterson..plz

But with all the international spots taken they'll have to be replaced with Americans or Canadians, so is there any reason to believe the replacements wil be any better?

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:28 PM
Lost Winter continues....[/QUOTE]



keep it coming...
this is monday morning work email circulation goodness

TFC USA
07-09-2011, 10:28 PM
-19 goal differential.

Record is -36. Can we challenge it?

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:30 PM
I am tired of players, coaches and fans complaining about the fouls that were and were not called. We didn't get a shot on net. The ref didn't cause us to play badly every minute of the game.


all my life i was tired of the complaining
but then about a year ago i came to the conclusion its just part of the game

i am tired of tfc fans yelling "shoot the ball"
when a player is at centre with five guys on him
ok really

Heathen
07-09-2011, 10:30 PM
Only real positive tonight imo was Gargan, he was relatively solid. I have no idea why Tchani started after his shit show on Wednesday, just as bad tonight

123 elite
07-09-2011, 10:31 PM
Is there any point anymore ?

Nuvinho
07-09-2011, 10:33 PM
Tony Tchani seems stressed on twitter:


WTF is going on??? 5 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/Tony_Tchani/status/89898184213676032) via Twitter for BlackBerry® (http://blackberry.com/twitter)

Damn things r not looking good!! 21 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/Tony_Tchani/status/89894329233055744) via Twitter for BlackBerry® (http://blackberry.com/twitter)

Winter ripping into them.

Heathen
07-09-2011, 10:34 PM
Tony Tchani seems stressed on twitter:



Winter ripping into them.

I'd be ripping into them too if some idiots tweeting on his iPhone while I'm trying to chew him out

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:38 PM
I'd be ripping into them too if some idiots tweeting on his iPhone while I'm trying to chew him out


ha ha

CSO_BBTB
07-09-2011, 10:39 PM
Never seen him so angry. Does he mean trade, cut or both?

Didn't quite live up to the billing, in my opinion. I was waiting for "Mr McGhee don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry" sort of stuff. :hulk:
Clearly means trades because cuts significantly more difficult now with the new CBA. Unfortunately the best time to make trades is when you are doing well because the other side is less likely to try to drive a hard bargain.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:39 PM
Only real positive tonight imo was Gargan, he was relatively solid. I have no idea why Tchani started after his shit show on Wednesday, just as bad tonight



gargan always puts in the effort thats for sure
he is always trying
i hope he starts rb the rest of the year

ag futbol
07-09-2011, 10:40 PM
I'd be ripping into them too if some idiots tweeting on his iPhone while I'm trying to chew him out
No doubt.

It's great that we have twitter to allow people to make asses of themselves literally any time of the day.

ExiledRed
07-09-2011, 10:40 PM
but why do you think he is not getting the most of them?
in which ways?

Its hard to believe he's a motivator of men, and this is why the Kenny Dalglish comparison all of a sudden becomes relevant.

torontoCelt basically spells it out.

Football coaching is as much psychological as it is tactical or academic. Winter does not strike me as the kind of man who I can trust, respect and can tell me that I am much better than I think I am and make me believe it.

CSO_BBTB
07-09-2011, 10:42 PM
King Kenny, a big example of one manager who got more out of his players than the previous manager despite largely having the same players at his disposal.....

And people wonder why I harp on about not being like Liverpool.:picard:

Heathen
07-09-2011, 10:43 PM
No doubt.

It's great that we have twitter to allow people to make asses of themselves literally any time of the day.

Tbf I've never needed any technological assistance in that department

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:48 PM
Its hard to believe he's a motivator of men, and this is why the Kenny Dalglish comparison all of a sudden becomes relevant.

torontoCelt basically spells it out.

Football coaching is as much psychological as it is tactical or academic. Winter does not strike me as the kind of man who I can trust, respect and can tell me that I am much better than I think I am and make me believe it.


i know what you mean but
i personally don't think these guys need motivation
or any psychological work for that matter at this stage
they are making 40 - 100 k for goodness sakes - normal people normal money they don't need special attention


im tired none of the above that i wrote makes any sense sorry
im excited for this usa game tmr morning

Inklink
07-09-2011, 10:49 PM
Can't wait until MLSE sells off their sports teams!

I honestly don't think that impacts how passionately a team plays on the field.

Whoop
07-09-2011, 10:53 PM
Coaches need to know how to push player's buttons. Pick their spots, know when to cajole, know when to rip them, etc.

I don't see any of that from Winter right now.

shaggingscot
07-09-2011, 10:57 PM
I honestly don't think that impacts how passionately a team plays on the field.

Good teams are built from the top down, fucking right it affects the on field product. When was the last time MLSE showed any passion for anything other than share value?

As long as us and the rest of the mugs buy our tickets they don't give a fuck.

CSO_BBTB
07-09-2011, 10:58 PM
I don't see any of that from Winter right now.

He did enough things right to get two wins in succession against the Whitecaps despite the way Vancouver focused on only one of the two games in terms of getting results. Disappointing how the next two games went but hopefully the two new DPs that are already in place and a soon to be attempted trade for a starting centre back will make a big difference by the time we see TFC in action again.

TFC USA
07-09-2011, 10:58 PM
gargan always puts in the effort thats for sure
he is always trying
i hope he starts rb the rest of the year

This is what we're reduced to. Awarding points for effort in year five.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 10:59 PM
I honestly don't think that impacts how passionately a team plays on the field.



mlse gave us a new respectable staff
thats the only good thing they have done for us
but thats all they really can do anyways

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 11:02 PM
This is what we're reduced to. Awarding points for effort in year five.

unfortunately yes

brad
07-09-2011, 11:05 PM
Molinaro summed it up best on twitter.


1 win in 12 games. -19 goal difference. 36 goals against (41 all last season). 18 pts from 20 games. Impossible to put + spin on this. #TFC

shaggingscot
07-09-2011, 11:07 PM
mlse gave us a new respectable staff
thats the only good thing they have done for us
but thats all they really can do anyways

How about settling for nothing less than excellence? Or is that too much to ask from them?

TFC USA
07-09-2011, 11:09 PM
mlse gave us a new respectable staff
thats the only good thing they have done for us
but thats all they really can do anyways

Bullshit. If this is the best they can do as they continue to fuck paying fans up the ass with mediocrity then this is just the Leafs without earlier success.

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 11:11 PM
Molinaro summed it up best on twitter.



i really thought we were going to make a run for the top of the table until
whats his face montero from the sounders scored on us in the 88th min
at home that was a game / season changer.

DichioTFC
07-09-2011, 11:12 PM
Molinaro summed it up best on twitter.

I lost interest in anything Molinaro had to say after the Hatchi article.


Toronto FC is close to announcing the acquisition of former Montreal Impact defender Kevin Hatchi.


*later in the article*


"No, we are not signing Kevin Hatchi. There are no plans to bring him into the club,” said Paul Mariner, the team’s director of player development.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/sports/soccer/story/2011/07/08/sp-hatchi.html

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 11:14 PM
Bullshit. If this is the best they can do as they continue to fuck paying fans up the ass with mediocrity then this is just the Leafs without earlier success.



ok ok ok this is how i have been thinking for about two years
but then i asked myself what position does mlse really have
what is their role what can they actually do to put a winning team on the field and my answer to this is not a lot...
they bring the staff and build facilities and thats it...

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 11:15 PM
I lost interest in anything Molinaro had to say after the Hatchi article.



i lost interest in him the first day i was on twitter
i later deleted my account mainly cause of people like him

reggie
07-09-2011, 11:17 PM
I lost interest in anything Molinaro had to say after the Hatchi article.
im with you on that...maybe we can call him scoop molinaro

Beach_Red
07-09-2011, 11:17 PM
There was a lot of talk before the season started about Klinsmann making sure to do a good job because he wouldn't want to see his reputation damaged. Is it damaged yet?

ag futbol
07-09-2011, 11:23 PM
ok ok ok this is how i have been thinking for about two years
but then i asked myself what position does mlse really have
what is their role what can they actually do to put a winning team on the field and my answer to this is not a lot... they bring the staff and build facilities and thats it... i think they give the management the freedom to build the team on their own... like burkie and colangelo....
Well you know, there was that small thing where they allowed a complete idiot to run the team for the first four years and even extended his contract once even after it was painfully obvious he had no idea what he was doing.

You know what? I think the leafs, raptors, and Toronto FC have just been painfully unlucky! What a strange coincidence that three teams owned by the same organization all troll the bottom of their respective leagues for exceptionally long periods of time.
:picard:

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 11:24 PM
why are the sounders and union so successful
what makes them different?

why do i have a feeling the impact are going to be just as successful
saputo is gonna dump loads of cash into that organization
mafia all up in that, they will demand a winning product

whyalwaysme11
07-09-2011, 11:28 PM
Well you know, there was that small thing where they allowed a complete idiot to run the team for the first four years and even extended his contract once even after it was painfully obvious he had no idea what he was doing.

You know what? I think the leafs, raptors, and Toronto FC have just been painfully unlucky! What a strange coincidence that three teams owned by the same organization all troll the bottom of their respective leagues for exceptionally long periods of time.
:picard:


lol yes that small thing... i mentioned earlier that the only good thing that they ever did was to bring in this new staff... i already considered the first 4 years one big mistake lol

honestly i am so lost on the reason as to why these teams are like this i cant even comment anymore. i walk through maple leaf square and i say to myself all this financial success and not one damn playoff series

ExiledRed
07-10-2011, 12:07 AM
There was a lot of talk before the season started about Klinsmann making sure to do a good job because he wouldn't want to see his reputation damaged. Is it damaged yet?

The guy is a celebrity coach. He'll be remembered for prancing about in the world cup long after people forget about TFC's worst season.

Couchy81
07-10-2011, 12:11 AM
Blah blah blah

TFC USA
07-10-2011, 12:15 AM
The Sounders and Union are effective because they don't let dumbasses run the show for so long.

That's like the fork in the electrical outlet and then you follow it up by sticking your dick in there.

Roogsy
07-10-2011, 12:36 AM
Don't knock it till you try it USA!

Keystone FC
07-10-2011, 04:01 AM
why are the sounders and union so successful
what makes them different?

why do i have a feeling the impact are going to be just as successful
saputo is gonna dump loads of cash into that organization
mafia all up in that, they will demand a winning product
The Sounders? Well, you can look at the fact that they have been around for about 30 years with a solid fan base and owners who know that if the club isn't in the run for some type of silverware then could stand to lose their job. That and withthe 30 years + of experience and a youth system in play makes for a deadly combo.

The Union? You got me? The Union and RSL are the clubs I look at to compare TFC with on the basis that all 3 were built from the ground up. They were not a USL/A League/NASL club who jump into MLS with a moneybags owner. You could say it might have to do with how the sports/economic/culture aspect is handled differently between the US and Canada but I think it really comes down to how ownership views the club and what it is willing to do to make that franchise successful.

torontocelt
07-10-2011, 06:28 AM
And people wonder why I harp on about not being like Liverpool.:picard:
Christ almighty, I only mentioned Liverpool because you brought them up, go back and read your posts. :picard:

Parkdale
07-10-2011, 07:07 AM
Can't wait for Walking Dead season 2.



but wait... aren't we already in Season V?



(apologizes if this joke was already made on an earlier page)

69Chevy396
07-10-2011, 07:25 AM
I have said this before, in various threads, and will raise it again today. The only way MLSE will pay attention and do more to improve this woeful club is if the martini drinking suits in the bmo box look over at your section and see no chanting, no flag waving, no cheering. You guys underestimate the value you bring to the club, to the organization. Whenever I have brought new people to bmo the first thing they do is marvel at the supporters, particularly RPB. Take this away and you will send the message, otherwise, in many respects, you are no different than the season ticket holders at the leaf games who show up in their suits and minks, and talk business while the team is slaughtered on the ice.

menefreghista
07-10-2011, 07:36 AM
Agreed. If we fire Winter we might as well cancel Klinsman's contract because Winter, I assume, was Klinsman's suggestion

Klinsmann's contract with TFC expired months ago.

And from the interview he gave recently to Vancouver people he seems to be already washing his hands from the mess TFC is in.

His reputation won't be affected by how shit TFC is, just as Exiled Red said above.

Pookie
07-10-2011, 07:40 AM
Tonight was painful to watch. Hopefully it will mark the end of an absolutely dreadful regular season run that has been mired with uninspired performances and patchwork lineups.

Let's hope July 20th will mark a new beginning for this club with better times ahead for the organization and it's beleaguered supporters.

Amen.

That cliche definition of insanity popped into my head when I saw the starting line up and realized that no matter what we think of certain starting players, it wasn't as if putting in Stinson for Peterson was going to be an upgrade. The bench isn't hiding a superstar, game changer.

What were the odds of a victory when we are "doing the same thing over again and expecting different results"?

Of course, there is always the option of dumping on the coach for his tactics which I guess would mean that a different coach would get different results with these same players.

But then, for the most part, that would just be doing the same thing over again and expecting different results, which is silly.

Looking forward to the 20th.

Parkdale
07-10-2011, 07:41 AM
I have said this before, in various threads, and will raise it again today. The only way MLSE will pay attention and do more to improve this woeful club is if the martini drinking suits in the bmo box look over at your section and see no chanting, no flag waving, no cheering. You guys underestimate the value you bring to the club, to the organization. Whenever I have brought new people to bmo the first thing they do is marvel at the supporters, particularly RPB. Take this away and you will send the message, otherwise, in many respects, you are no different than the season ticket holders at the leaf games who show up in their suits and minks, and talk business while the team is slaughtered on the ice.

yeah... but we're there to support the players, even when they don't always deserve it, NOT to put on a show for the other people in the stands. That might be a lucky byproduct, but it's 100% unintended. Our flags and drums are for the team, not the boxes

We are very different from "the season ticket holders at the leaf games who show up in their suits and minks, and talk business while the team is slaughtered on the ice" because what we're doing is..... supporting the team on the field.

The idea that we have to stop supporting if we want MLSE to make positive changes is ridiculous

TFCREDNWHITE
07-10-2011, 08:18 AM
The absolute worst thing we could do right now, is fire Winter and Bob...that would be a complete dumbass move!

RedsYNWA
07-10-2011, 08:41 AM
Could always be worse

http://deadspin.com/5819571/seven-wonderful-minutes-of-an-older-argentinian-man-yelling-at-his-soccer-match-on-tv

Blowing Bubbles
07-10-2011, 08:48 AM
The Sounders? Well, you can look at the fact that they have been around for about 30 years with a solid fan base and owners who know that if the club isn't in the run for some type of silverware then could stand to lose their job. That and withthe 30 years + of experience and a youth system in play makes for a deadly combo.

The Union? You got me? The Union and RSL are the clubs I look at to compare TFC with on the basis that all 3 were built from the ground up. They were not a USL/A League/NASL club who jump into MLS with a moneybags owner. You could say it might have to do with how the sports/economic/culture aspect is handled differently between the US and Canada but I think it really comes down to how ownership views the club and what it is willing to do to make that franchise successful.

please tell me you're not serious?

SSFC success is due to their youth system? cmonson.

How about the vision to get young players like Montero as DP's rather than old men? Or going and sparing no expense to steal one of the top MLS coaches from another club?

It's not their freaking youth system.

sully
07-10-2011, 08:52 AM
hey, at least we didn't get embarrassed.

That's optimistic. We've reached a point where this is a plus. Unfortunately, I think we may see Frei get traded, which would be a disaster in itself, but what other value to trade do we have...

CSO_BBTB
07-10-2011, 08:55 AM
Christ almighty, I only mentioned Liverpool because you brought them up, go back and read your posts. :picard:

Doesn't matter why you mentioned them. What is bizarre is that you think there is some sort of parallel that can be made between what happens at Anfield and what happens at BMO Field. Liverpool are able to massively outspend most of their Premiership rivals so if they are in the bottom half of the table it is reasonable to conclude that they are in a position they should not be in and that hiring a new coach can reasonably be expected to quickly turn things around because the superior quality of player is there on the roster to get better results. In a Premiership context success is something that is effectively bought by the best supported teams. Overall there is a strong correlation between average crowd size and where a team winds up in the standings in most European leagues.

In an MLS context under the single entity ownership model that is currently in place having one of the largest and most passionate supports doesn't translate into a larger salary budget (worth bearing in mind that the DP rule is set up to penalize the teams that take advantage of it to try to balance the effect of the big star signing to maintain competitive parity) so a team like TFC can easily be in the bottom half of the table because they have a roster that is simply not that good relative to the other teams if a series of poor decisions were made by management in earlier seasons because it isn't possible to simply get the cheque book out to solve the problem immediately in the short term due to relatively restrictive roster rules. The best organized teams that stay the course with a long term plan tend to rise to the top in MLS regardless of how well supported they are. Kneejerk coaching changes resulting in radical changes in tactics season after season to appease an impatient support are liable to do a lot more harm than good.

69Chevy396
07-10-2011, 09:09 AM
yeah... but we're there to support the players, even when they don't always deserve it, NOT to put on a show for the other people in the stands. That might be a lucky byproduct, but it's 100% unintended. Our flags and drums are for the team, not the boxes

We are very different from "the season ticket holders at the leaf games who show up in their suits and minks, and talk business while the team is slaughtered on the ice" because what we're doing is..... supporting the team on the field.

The idea that we have to stop supporting if we want MLSE to make positive changes is ridiculous
Perhaps, but this is a bit of a contradiction. Was it last year, or the year before when rpb protested a game and remained silent, and it was the most memorable and noticeable issue, written about in the media, and talked about for weeks. Nobody is asking you to entertain the fans, but if all this remonstrating and disappointment which permeates everything surrounding this club right now, has any impact on the club, which i doubt it has, than a noticeable absence of singing etc, might. Besides, all the chanting and singing has done nothing to improve the on field play, i doubt most if any of these players really give a shit anymore. I am not advocating walking away from this club, but you do realize that the team has done nothing to improve fan interest over the past three years, and the tv ratings etc, and media coverage indicate that womens tennis and lawn bowling attract more interest then this woeful, miserable club.

canadian_bhoy
07-10-2011, 09:28 AM
why are the sounders and union so successful
what makes them different?

why do i have a feeling the impact are going to be just as successful
saputo is gonna dump loads of cash into that organization
mafia all up in that, they will demand a winning product

Sounders and Union are American teams. Don't discount how huge that is.

Can you imagine how hard it must be to convince someone to come play in MLS?
- crap league
- kiddie atmosphere in most stadiums
- perception that America has no idea about football
- shit money
- ridiculous travel distances

plus about 100 other reasons.

Now take all of those reasons and add "By the way, did we mention the team was in Canada" - and see how many people want to come play for you.

The other reason is that the sounders and union never hired Mo Johnston.

Whoop
07-10-2011, 09:35 AM
The Sounders and Union are effective because they don't let dumbasses run the show for so long.

That's like the fork in the electrical outlet and then you follow it up by sticking your dick in there.

No.

They got the right coach/people from the start in Sigi Schmid and Piotr Nowak.

ensco
07-10-2011, 09:37 AM
Kneejerk coaching changes resulting in radical changes in tactics season after season to appease an impatient support is liable to do a lot more harm than good.

Of course this is correct. But.....

Imho, I think the coach would be a candidate for replacement, but for the history here. So let's accept that as a given. Winter is not going anywhere.

But what do we do about the real world box we are now in? Because the above, combined with the FO's ability/willingness to be realists about pricing until it's too late, almost certainly means TFC will be a financial catatrosphe in 2012 (probably an onfield mess too, again just my humble opinion). Which will lead to massive change, guaranteed, given the corporate setup.

The stability you want is an impossibility, either way.

I don't have a good idea as to what to do. I really don't.

TFCwestcan
07-10-2011, 09:40 AM
I would love to know how Houston got two break aways. Unfortunately the camera work did not allow that.

the camera work was shit, showing players on the sidelines while action was going on.

Whoop
07-10-2011, 09:47 AM
Of course this is correct. But.....

Imho, I think the coach would be a candidate for replacement, but for the history here. So let's accept that as a given. Winter is not going anywhere.

But what do we do about the real world box we are now in? Because the above, combined with the FO's ability/willingness to be realists about pricing until it's too late, almost certainly means TFC will be a financial catatrosphe in 2012 (probably an onfield mess too, again just my humble opinion). Which will lead to massive change, guaranteed, given the corporate setup.

The stability you want is an impossibility, either way.

I don't have a good idea as to what to do. I really don't.

TFC's bumbling history has put them in this predicament.

That one stupid move of keeping Mo on instead of firing him after the 5-0 loss to NY has really, really hurt this club.

Imagine.

If they had fired him then, and say hired Winter/Mariner (or some other tandem) in December of '09, this would be the 2nd year for the regime and you would have more tangible proof to see how the team was doing.

But instead you keep Mo around, who at this point, is doing whatever he can to keep his job, future be damned, because he knows if he fails here, the odds of getting another football job with a team is going to be nil. You see this happen all the time with crappy teams.

To top it all off though... you manage to piss off your supporter base with rising ticket prices and trying to make the game day experience more miserable.

Kudos TFC FO and kudos MLSE. At least you've assured yourself in history books forever.

On how not to run a sports franchise.

CSO_BBTB
07-10-2011, 09:52 AM
They got the right coach/people from the start in Sigi Schmid and Piotr Nowak.

At the outset before a ball had been kicked in anger there wasn't exactly a huge line of top people angling for the job, probably because of the way RSL and Chivas had struggled when they entered in 2005. MLSE's first choice was Frank Yallop but he turned them down. The time to get rid of Mo was when he failed to land either Dickov or Huckerby in 2008. He did OK on drafts and trades most of the time (I'm talking pre-Gerba/Garcia) but once it was clear he couldn't get the job done in the international transfer market (there had also been the likes of Welsh and Samuel by that point plus Canero at the Metrostars) it was time to move on.

Unlike in the summer of 2006, a top notch GM could have been attracted by the end of the 2008 season because the worst excesses of the Canadian content restrictions had been erased, there was a massive dollop of allocation money available to be spent and three (?) first round picks for the upcoming draft. That meant there was every prospect of making the team a success. Unfortunately people fell for Mo's excuses about fieldturf (Seattle have since shown it isn't an insurmountable obstacle) and for whatever bizarre reason (find it hard to see beyond having a British accent as being the explanation) thought John Carver was the answer as coach in an MLS context despite the way he behaved like a fish out of water most of the time.

Whoop
07-10-2011, 10:03 AM
At the outset before a ball had been kicked in anger there wasn't exactly a huge line of top people angling for the job, probably because of the way RSL and Chivas had struggled when they entered in 2005. MLSE's first choice was Frank Yallop but he turned them down. The time to get rid of Mo was when he failed to land either Dickov or Huckerby in 2008. He did OK on drafts and trades most of the time (I'm talking pre-Gerba/Garcia) but once it was clear he couldn't get the job done in the international transfer market (there had also been the likes of Welsh and Samuel by that point plus Canero at the Metrostars) it was time to move on.

Unlike in the summer of 2006, a top notch GM could have been attracted by the end of the 2008 season because the worst excesses of the Canadian content restrictions had been erased, there was a massive dollop of allocation money available to be spent and three (?) first round picks for the upcoming draft. That meant there was every prospect of making the team a success. Unfortunately people fell for Mo's excuses about fieldturf (Seattle have since shown it isn't an insurmountable obstacle) and for whatever bizarre reason (find it hard to see beyond having a British accent as being the explanation) thought John Carver was the answer as coach in an MLS context despite the way he behaved like a fish out of water most of the time.

To be fair to Mo, the turf was an issue... but not because it was turf, but because the turf at BMO was abused to shit due to the stadium deal. Having played on the BMO turf, the turf at BMO was hard as shit and unforgiving. The turf at Lamport had more give. Something that had a shelf life of 20 years was done after 2.

I mean, I don't see the community of Seattle playing football and ultimate frisbee on Qwest Field's turf.

Though Mo probably was able to convince MLSE to give him one more year with the team when it was going to grass. "I can work magic with a grass field."

CSO_BBTB
07-10-2011, 10:05 AM
Not claiming it wasn't an issue. What I wrote was "isn't an insurmountable obstacle". Can remember receiving a PM that Savo Milosevic had told a fan in Serbo-Croat (not Denime) during his trial in the fall of 2007 that he had no problem with the fieldturf and hoped to be able to negotiate a contract, for example. He went on to win a league championship medal with Rubin Kazan in Russia the following season.

Cashcleaner
07-10-2011, 10:22 AM
Ugh.






That is all.

tiberius
07-10-2011, 10:30 AM
Amen.

That cliche definition of insanity popped into my head ...

But then, for the most part, that would just be doing the same thing over again and expecting different results, which is silly.

Looking forward to the 20th.

XX? Pookie - you definitely have long term vision - looking forward to the 20th season already!:)

Beach_Red
07-10-2011, 10:33 AM
Of course this is correct. But.....

Imho, I think the coach would be a candidate for replacement, but for the history here. So let's accept that as a given. Winter is not going anywhere.

But what do we do about the real world box we are now in? Because the above, combined with the FO's ability/willingness to be realists about pricing until it's too late, almost certainly means TFC will be a financial catatrosphe in 2012 (probably an onfield mess too, again just my humble opinion). Which will lead to massive change, guaranteed, given the corporate setup.

The stability you want is an impossibility, either way.

I don't have a good idea as to what to do. I really don't.

The hiring of Klinsmann was interesting because on the one hand it was an admission tnat no one at MLSE could properly set up a soccer FO, but on the other it was a short-term consultancy that isn't able to evaluate the system that's been put in place in any kind of day to day way.

I think a big step now would be what was needed from the very beginning and what the Leafs have done - hire a president and seperate TFC from MLSE
operations. Take themselves out of the equation. Pull some well-redpected administrator out of retirement if they have to and stop pretending this is a middle management issue that can be solved with middle management changes.

torontocelt
07-10-2011, 10:53 AM
Doesn't matter why you mentioned them. What is bizarre is that you think there is some sort of parallel that can be made between what happens at Anfield and what happens at BMO Field. Liverpool are able to massively outspend most of their Premiership rivals so if they are in the bottom half of the table it is reasonable to conclude that they are in a position they should not be in and that hiring a new coach can reasonably be expected to quickly turn things around because the superior quality of player is there on the roster to get better results. In a Premiership context success is something that is effectively bought by the best supported teams. Overall there is a strong correlation between average crowd size and where a team winds up in the standings in most European leagues.

In an MLS context under the single entity ownership model that is currently in place having one of the largest and most passionate supports doesn't translate into a larger salary budget (worth bearing in mind that the DP rule is set up to penalize the teams that take advantage of it to try to balance the effect of the big star signing to maintain competitive parity) so a team like TFC can easily be in the bottom half of the table because they have a roster that is simply not that good relative to the other teams if a series of poor decisions were made by management in earlier seasons because it isn't possible to simply get the cheque book out to solve the problem immediately in the short term due to relatively restrictive roster rules. The best organized teams that stay the course with a long term plan tend to rise to the top in MLS regardless of how well supported they are. Kneejerk coaching changes resulting in radical changes in tactics season after season to appease an impatient support are liable to do a lot more harm than good.

Actually the only point I was making with Liverpool is that they had one manager who was leading them into relegation and then they replaced him with another manager who was leading them close to the top 5 with basically the same players at his disposal. That is the the only point I was making ie that some managers can get more from their players than others. This has nothing to do with cheque books and all about man management and tactics. Football is rife with managers who can come in and get better results than previous managers at all levels, it is not somehting that is uncommon and it is everything to do with how they perform in their job.

Alixir
07-10-2011, 10:59 AM
-19 goal differential.

Record is -36. Can we challenge it?If there is a negative record that can be broken..TFC is the team to do it!!

Aside from that I had a dream last night that we lost a game 55-0. I don't know who TFC was playing in that dream but I remember looking at the scoreboard at the half and it said 0-55.

You know your team sucks when you dream about them losing.

Cashcleaner
07-10-2011, 11:14 AM
The hiring of Klinsmann was interesting because on the one hand it was an admission tnat no one at MLSE could properly set up a soccer FO, but on the other it was a short-term consultancy that isn't able to evaluate the system that's been put in place in any kind of day to day way.

I think a big step now would be what was needed from the very beginning and what the Leafs have done - hire a president and seperate TFC from MLSE operations. Take themselves out of the equation. Pull some well-respected administrator out of retirement if they have to and stop pretending this is a middle management issue that can be solved with middle management changes.

Yes. YES!

Furthermore, it really bothered me that nobody higher than the position of Head Coach/Manager were brought in during the off-season. If Klinnsmann was supposed to be the genius consultant everyone assumed he was, why didn't he find a replacement for Anselmi as well? Think about it - Anselmi and other TFC brass admitted themselves that they were lacking in experience with regards to running a soccer club.

Did Klinnsmann overlook this fact, or was it made clear to him that everyone higher than Director of Football Ops were untouchable?

Because by not bringing in an executive in addition to a new GM, the club is basically saying: "Hey, I don't know much about how to run a soccer club, but you don't need to replace me - just get someone under me who can do a better job".

Consider that for a minute.

bgnewf
07-10-2011, 11:18 AM
For those jumping off the proverbial bridge today after that loss last night and/or where TFC finds itself in this league I again ask yourself what realistically did you expect coming into this season?

I did not expect the playoffs as being realistic back in March and I would guess most in this forum would have probably agreed with me.

ExiledRed
07-10-2011, 11:21 AM
Unfortunately people fell for Mo's excuses about fieldturf (Seattle have since shown it isn't an insurmountable obstacle)

Its hard not to think that this argument is disingenuous, and possibly a dig at certain posters more than a realistic assessment of what happened.

Fieldturf wasn't really a major one of Mos excuses because he wasnt really allowed to say anything bad about it for at least two seasons.

I bet Seattle has had problems, dont know if community use is an issue there either, and whatever.... the plastic surface that we had has since been verified as a major problem by tons of players who were here at the time, cited as a contributing reason by players who didnt come here, and had to be removed because the only reason it was installed (community use) damaged it so much it became unacceptable for professional play.

Carver wasnt sharp and he had a mediocre mindset, I wasnt huge on him either but a fish out of water? In comparison Winter is an Octopus on an aeroplane.

Cashcleaner
07-10-2011, 11:21 AM
For those jumping off the proverbial bridge today after that loss last night and/or where TFC finds itself in this league I again ask yourself what realistically did you expect coming into this season?

I did not expect the playoffs as being realistic back in March and I would guess most in this forum would have probably agreed with me.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I was expecting something a bit better than 17 goals for, 36 goals against, and a 3-9-9 record at this point in the season.

tiberius
07-10-2011, 11:25 AM
For those jumping off the proverbial bridge today after that loss last night and/or where TFC finds itself in this league I again ask yourself what realistically did you expect coming into this season?

I did not expect the playoffs as being realistic back in March and I would guess most in this forum would have probably agreed with me.

It is like looking at a huge train derailment that is happening in slow motion over the course of 10 months. We may know it is happening, but it is still very difficult to continue watching all of the pain and anguish... it is sometimes very hard to bear without comment and complaint... even if we all knew what was going to happen way back in March...

Whoop
07-10-2011, 11:25 AM
I wasn't expecting playoffs but I was expecting more fight.

torontocelt
07-10-2011, 11:31 AM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I was expecting something a bit better than 17 goals for, 36 goals against, and a 3-9-9 record at this point in the season.

Yep, hit the nail right on the head with that one.

Beach_Red
07-10-2011, 11:38 AM
I wasn't expecting playoffs but I was expecting more fight.

Yeah, that's it, more fight. Houston went from back-ro-back cup champions to not making the playoffs so they're rebuilding, too. I expected a shot or two on net against another rebuilding team.

ensco
07-10-2011, 11:42 AM
These players aren't playing for each other, or for their coach.

There is obviously something seriously wrong in the locker room. All this "system" and "rebuilding" talk doesn't account for the obvious.

Pigfynn
07-10-2011, 11:52 AM
These players aren't playing for each other, or for their coach.

There is obviously something seriously wrong in the locker room. All this "system" and "rebuilding" talk doesn't account for the obvious.

I believe this to be true as well.

No one can convince me that these players care enough. They just don't, they are mentally weak with one or two exceptions.

Beach_Red
07-10-2011, 11:54 AM
These players aren't playing for each other, or for their coach.

There is obviously something seriously wrong in the locker room. All this "system" and "rebuilding" talk doesn't account for the obvious.

But all this system and rebuilding talk sends a clear message to the players - "You're not part of the future here, we're going to play a system you didn't grow up with."

They better start trading for a lot more international spots quick.

rocker
07-10-2011, 11:58 AM
Injuries have also taken a major toll on defense. We had a weak defense to begin with (I was not a huge fan of Cann, Attakora and Williams) but at least they were serviceable MLS players. If Cann and Williams were in the middle, we'd have Eckersley in his proper position at right back, and the only major hole would be left back (not sold on Borman). Attakora and Henry would be the CB backups and Harden wouldn't see the field. When you start with Cann/Attakora and or Williams on defense but lose them all to injury, you cannot expect to have good backups ready and waiting with experience and ability in a capped league.

It also doesn't help results any when you're going with a youth movement in many positions. Sigi Schmidt and Petr Novak have not gone with a youth movement. Hans Backe gutted NYRB and almost all of his first-choice starters are foreigners near 30 with experience. Plata wouldn't be starting regularly on these guy's teams. I like Plata but he's young and still learning the game.

Brooker
07-10-2011, 12:00 PM
Could always be worse

http://deadspin.com/5819571/seven-wonderful-minutes-of-an-older-argentinian-man-yelling-at-his-soccer-match-on-tv

That was awesome lol. It actually made me feel much better about last night and this season in general.

DangerRed
07-10-2011, 12:17 PM
To all the people half-seriously saying that at least we didn't lose 5-0, you've got to give your head a shake.

And to everyone else who said I'm too negative, I guess streaks like the one we're currently on are clear and definite proof of the club's progress.

Right?

DichioTFC
07-10-2011, 12:39 PM
Could always be worse

http://deadspin.com/5819571/seven-wonderful-minutes-of-an-older-argentinian-man-yelling-at-his-soccer-match-on-tv

Video embedded. Like the article says, no knowledge of Spanish is required to enjoy this video.

8OU1mW0Ty_Y

rocker
07-10-2011, 12:42 PM
I guess streaks like the one we're currently on are clear and definite proof of the club's progress.
Right?

Right, a two game losing streak is not clear and definite proof of anything. It's not clear and definite proof of progress and it's not clear and definite proof that this team is doomed under Winter. It's two very bad games that made me sick.

It's two road losses for a team that's been the worst road team in MLS since it's existence. Pretty typical actually.

I seem to remember fondly a cup win last week, and I'm not going to forget it. But I don't equate a cup win with "progress." But it's something.

spark
07-10-2011, 01:04 PM
Right, a two game losing streak is not clear and definite proof of anything. It's not clear and definite proof of progress and it's not clear and definite proof that this team is doomed under Winter. It's two very bad games that made me sick.

Right but one win in twelve league games is, especially when the win came against the one team below us on a PK. We might not be 'doomed' but everything is there to see should you choose to see it.

tiberius
07-10-2011, 01:37 PM
That was awesome lol. It actually made me feel much better about last night and this season in general.

OMG - hysterical!! This sure brightened my day!

Help me out - my Spanish is not very good - was he watching the Philadelphia game or the Red Bull game?

Dave67
07-10-2011, 01:39 PM
For those jumping off the proverbial bridge today after that loss last night and/or where TFC finds itself in this league I again ask yourself what realistically did you expect coming into this season?

I did not expect the playoffs as being realistic back in March and I would guess most in this forum would have probably agreed with me.


I expected to miss the playoffs before the season started. I thought the season would end up being broken down as this.

Games 1 - 10 horrible and unwatchable as a new management team attempted to teach a new system to players they were not familiar with.

Games 11 - 22 mildly entertaining with a clear vision that the players were inspired and that the system was adaptable to the players on the current team.

Games 23 - 34 solid and entertaining games leaving me filled with anticipation that 2012 will be our year.

I am not currently hopeful that phase 3 of this is about to happen. Frings and Koevermans will need to be the two greatest DP signings in MLS history for there to be any chance of this happening. We currently look unfit, uninspired and incapable. The uninspired part annoys me the most.

My wife watches TFC games mainly to humour me. She said it best when she said to me at the end of last nights game 'my eyes hurt'

tiberius
07-10-2011, 01:52 PM
Video embedded. Like the article says, no knowledge of Spanish is required to enjoy this video.

8OU1mW0Ty_Y

There is an english subtitled version...

The best non-obscene lines were "can we just finish ONE little play?" and "Lets make 3 continued passes!"

DangerRed
07-10-2011, 01:53 PM
Right, a two game losing streak is not clear and definite proof of anything. It's not clear and definite proof of progress and it's not clear and definite proof that this team is doomed under Winter. It's two very bad games that made me sick.

It's two road losses for a team that's been the worst road team in MLS since it's existence. Pretty typical actually.

I seem to remember fondly a cup win last week, and I'm not going to forget it. But I don't equate a cup win with "progress." But it's something.

Surely you can't be serious.

We've won one game out of the last 12.

To win the cup you're talking about, we beat a second-rate NASL team and the second-worst team in the MLS. It should be an unexcusable failure if TFC doesn't win this thing, year after year.

TFC USA
07-10-2011, 02:00 PM
Don't knock it till you try it USA!

You assume I haven't tried it......

TFC07
07-10-2011, 02:55 PM
Sounders and Union are American teams. Don't discount how huge that is.

Can you imagine how hard it must be to convince someone to come play in MLS?
- crap league
- kiddie atmosphere in most stadiums
- perception that America has no idea about football
- shit money
- ridiculous travel distances

plus about 100 other reasons.

Now take all of those reasons and add "By the way, did we mention the team was in Canada" - and see how many people want to come play for you.

The other reason is that the sounders and union never hired Mo Johnston.

That is totally BS! There were numerous players (including big star players) that were interested playing for TFC (those with sources here can confirm this), but Mo wasn't interested signing them.

Management was and still is the reason why TFC hasn't been successful so far.

Roogsy
07-10-2011, 03:29 PM
Yup. The whole "nobody wants to play in Canada" is bunk. However, the whole "nobody wants to play for a screwed up organization" might be more believable.

Pookie
07-10-2011, 03:54 PM
^ except that Koevermans, Frings and Eckersley all came to this "screwed up organization" presumably of their own free will.

Davenport
07-10-2011, 04:04 PM
i would like to know why people dont like perterson
i think he is a reliable mls starter
He's crap. The only thing you can rely on is he's going to be crap every week.
Peterson, Harden, Gargan, Martina, Soolsma, Yourass are the worst of a very bad bunch.

Pachuco
07-10-2011, 06:02 PM
Didn't watch the game...didn't care enough to.
Haven't watched the highlights...don't care enough to.
Haven't even read about the game...don't care enough to.
I found out the score this afternoon through my father in law this afternoon.

It's sad how little I'm interested in the team I used to live and die for.

DangerRed
07-10-2011, 06:30 PM
^ except that Koevermans, Frings and Eckersley all came to this "screwed up organization" presumably of their own free will.

So did Stevanovic..

Wonder if Ecks will get recalled, although I heard him say recently that the caliber of players in MLS is better than in the English second tier, which may be a little generous but at least indicates he's enjoying himself.

Chevy
07-10-2011, 06:32 PM
Didn't watch the game...didn't care enough to.
Haven't watched the highlights...don't care enough to.
Haven't even read about the game...don't care enough to.
I found out the score this afternoon through my father in law this afternoon.

It's sad how little I'm interested in the team I used to live and die for.

Don't care anymore? Then go away.

Pachuco
07-10-2011, 07:03 PM
Don't care anymore? Then go away.

Oh yes, Chevy the almighty supporter. Ruler of the TFC supporter kingdom and the Redpatchboys site.

Get a life!

Pigfynn
07-10-2011, 07:08 PM
Oh yes, Chevy the almighty supporter. Ruler of the TFC supporter kingdom and the Redpatchboys site.

Get a life!

He makes a good point though.

If you're totally not bothered then why not just go away? There are hundreds of other footie websites that have nothing to do with TFC. You may be much happpier there.

Pachuco
07-10-2011, 07:13 PM
He makes a good point though.

If you're totally not bothered then why not just go away? There are hundreds of other footie websites that have nothing to do with TFC. You may be much happpier there.

I wasn't bothered to watch an away game that I could have guaranteed you we were going to lose. And therefore I should get the fuck off the forum? I come here to express my disinterest in the team because there are a hell of alot of people that feel the same way I do. This is the first game this season that I'm completely disinterested in and didn't even care to know the score when I woke up.

So now I ask you....who are you to tell me where to post?

Pigfynn
07-10-2011, 07:23 PM
I wasn't bothered to watch an away game that I could have guaranteed you we were going to lose. And therefore I should get the fuck off the forum? I come here to express my disinterest in the team because there are a hell of alot of people that feel the same way I do. This is the first game this season that I'm completely disinterested in and didn't even care to know the score when I woke up.

So now I ask you....who are you to tell me where to post?

Do you hear yourself?

ag futbol
07-10-2011, 07:26 PM
http://www.alexjonesmachine.com/oneup.jpg

123 elite
07-10-2011, 08:23 PM
I wasn't bothered to watch an away game that I could have guaranteed you we were going to lose. And therefore I should get the fuck off the forum? I come here to express my disinterest in the team because there are a hell of alot of people that feel the same way I do. This is the first game this season that I'm completely disinterested in and didn't even care to know the score when I woke up.

So now I ask you....who are you to tell me where to post?

For what its worth i agree with you. I've put thousands into this club and right now i couldn't care less. Mowing my lawn is more interesting. I feel pretty sad about that. :(

Heathen
07-10-2011, 08:30 PM
Sounders and Union are American teams. Don't discount how huge that is.

Can you imagine how hard it must be to convince someone to come play in MLS?
- crap league
- kiddie atmosphere in most stadiums
- perception that America has no idea about football
- shit money
- ridiculous travel distances

plus about 100 other reasons.

Now take all of those reasons and add "By the way, did we mention the team was in Canada" - and see how many people want to come play for you.

The other reason is that the sounders and union never hired Mo Johnston.

This post epitomises one of the biggest problems with TFC and it's fans. From the start there's been way too much of an obsession with clapped out unwanted Eurotrash and disregard for North American based players. I myself used to be as guilty of this as anyone, only watching MLS if TFC were playing, showing no interest in the rest of the league, assuming every Championship has-been would tear the league up. Now I know better, how many Europeans were on Columbus 08, RSL 09 and the Rapids last year? We've been too busy filling up international roster spots to focus on what has traditionally been successful in this league, a team built around a strong established MLS core.

Pachuco
07-10-2011, 08:58 PM
For what its worth i agree with you. I've put thousands into this club and right now i couldn't care less. Mowing my lawn is more interesting. I feel pretty sad about that. :(

That's why I am here to post the way I felt about yesterday's game. Because I know there are alot of people that feel the same way. We've all read many regular supporters and posters on this forum saying their interest is at an all time low for them with this club.

I'm shocked that I didn't care about last night's game considering how dedicated I've been to this club from the beginning.

I've missed some things I should have never missed because I couldn't bear not going to a TFC game through the first 4 seasons.

So yeah, I think it's something worth talking about. But of course, you always have the smart assess telling you to get out if you don't wear TFC underwear everyday.

Pyeddo
07-10-2011, 09:08 PM
Because I know there are alot of people that feel the same way.

..+1

Roogsy
07-10-2011, 09:11 PM
That's the sad part about all this. Supporters of this club can disagree. There will always be differences of opinion even when the club is doing well, let alone when the club is shitting the bed.

But this attitude of "I am a better supporter" or "I am a true supporter because I refuse to crticize the team" is not only arrogant, it's also deluded.

With every day, this team loses fans. And with less fans, comes a team with less financial resouces. This attitude of "go away if you don't like what you see" can only lead to a team that doesn't have the financial resources to bring in DPs from Europe, or build proper academies or bring in proper coaches. And then where does that leave soccer in Toronto?

If there is a reality that we all agree, it's that MLSE is interested in making money. And at some point, if the revenue reaches a plateau that does not look to increase, MLSE will make cuts, not more investments. It's not negativity that will kill this club. All the negativity in the world will not do the kind of damage that apathy will do as a result of fans losing interest. If anything, at least still caring, still posting and still being angry about the things wrong with this club shows that many still do care. What we should worry about is when people stop caring.

Some of us see the danger of what is happening to this team and we are alarmed. While others are Ostriches with their heads in the sand. Patience and positivity are only a virtue when applied reasonably, not when they become more wishful thinking than faith based on evidence.

I have been accused of arrogant or condascending posts in the past and perhaps people have a point. But these very same people very often fail to look in the mirror themselves for fear of seeing the exact same behaviour.

Beach_Red
07-10-2011, 09:22 PM
This post epitomises one of the biggest problems with TFC and it's fans. From the start there's been way too much of an obsession with clapped out unwanted Eurotrash and disregard for North American based players. I myself used to be as guilty of this as anyone, only watching MLS if TFC were playing, showing no interest in the rest of the league, assuming every Championship has-been would tear the league up. Now I know better, how many Europeans were on Columbus 08, RSL 09 and the Rapids last year? We've been too busy filling up international roster spots to focus on what has traditionally been successful in this league, a team built around a strong established MLS core.

Yes.

Well, maybe that's what they'll try next, a North American system for a North American team, what a radical idea.

Roogsy
07-10-2011, 09:37 PM
Video embedded. Like the article says, no knowledge of Spanish is required to enjoy this video.

8OU1mW0Ty_Y


:smilielol5:

OMG this is the funniest thing I have seen this year. I wish you guys would understand what he is saying but I firmly believe there are no better swears on this planet than Spanish and French. And this old geezer takes Spanish swears to the extreme in a hilarious way.

Bars92
07-10-2011, 10:01 PM
This team has always been horiffic on the road. Not sure why anyone is surprised or what has changed.

Alixir
07-11-2011, 12:49 AM
Video embedded. Like the article says, no knowledge of Spanish is required to enjoy this video.

8OU1mW0Ty_YMamma mia!

CSO_BBTB
07-11-2011, 01:02 AM
Yes.

Well, maybe that's what they'll try next, a North American system for a North American team, what a radical idea.

Ignoring stuff that would be repetition of points already made, in an ideal world I also agree with Heathen about the "obsession with clapped out unwanted Eurotrash and disregard for North American based players". But would the marketing boys be able to get their bonuses for hitting their sales targets? I don't think they'll be trying that any time soon after what happened with Preki. If TFC have to do the big name euro thing Ajax are not a bad club to try to emulate from a youth system through to the first team sort of standpoint and it should be easy enough to find other coaches who can keep a 4-3-3/4-5-1 thing going post-Winter. It is very much the mainstream tactical philosophy now even if people with an anglocentric outlook still can't see beyond a diamond 4-4-2 with a target man striker.

The long term vision involved is not a bad one but can we trust MLSE to stay the course with it when those who have a sense of entitlement where instant success is concerned start to whinge? The key issue remains that at the corporate level it is people with a sales mentality who never kicked a ball in anger in their lives who are calling the shots. The lack of a Bobby Lenarduzzi type within the corporate structure is still causing problems. The marketing spin about "total football" created false impressions about what is going on amongst some supporters that has led to considerable animosity when cold hard reality subsequently collided with sales pitch hype and did they hold off on sanctioning the DeRosario trade until as much of their ticket inventory as possible had been sold? If so Beirne/Anselmi and co basically sabotaged this season in the process.

DichioTFC
07-11-2011, 03:40 AM
He makes a good point though.

If you're totally not bothered then why not just go away? There are hundreds of other footie websites that have nothing to do with TFC. You may be much happpier there.

I admit that I get annoyed from time to time with posters talking about their apathy, but honestly, I can't really blame them for being apathetic about the club.

Pachuco is as welcome to post his apathetic frustration on the board as I am welcome to post my unrealistic and baseless optimism (yes, I still have this small belief that playoffs are possible :D).

Expressing one's apathy towards the club is still an expression of opinion. And after all, isn't that what this board is for?

Keystone FC
07-11-2011, 03:58 AM
please tell me you're not serious?

SSFC success is due to their youth system? cmonson.

How about the vision to get young players like Montero as DP's rather than old men? Or going and sparing no expense to steal one of the top MLS coaches from another club?

It's not their freaking youth system.
It's just part of the whole. You also bring up some good points as well as to what makes them to be a good club. Looking at a club and trying to determine what makes them a good club requires a look at every aspect of that club.

menefreghista
07-11-2011, 05:40 AM
^ except that Koevermans, Frings and Eckersley all came to this "screwed up organization" presumably of their own free will.

The problem may be serviceable players with MLS experience not wanting to play for TFC.

How often do we hear about players wanting to be traded? Isn't Nick Labrocca the most recent example?

The guys you mention are immune to knowing about what a shitshow TFC has been for 5 years.


The long term vision involved is not a bad one but can we trust MLSE to stay the course with it when those who have a sense of entitlement where instant success is concerned start to whinge?

I take issue with this. This isn't fans whining after half a season of futility. This is fan reaction to now 5 years of shittiness.

The people pointing out how shit TFC are, and how it appears there is no direction are not the problem. At least we still care enough to follow the team this closely. Their is a wider portion of the fanbase that have become so apathetic that they are just walking away.

CSO_BBTB
07-11-2011, 06:13 AM
It doesn't matter whether there has been six months or five years of shittiness overall (somewhat debatable given TFC have actually been decent at times just never for a complete season) what I was referring to was "a sense of entitlement where instant success is concerned" whenever a new coach like Winter is appointed. Reasonable enough to expect that instant turnaround at a club like Rangers, Manchester United or Inter Milan where success can essentially be bought simply by spending more than the other clubs. It isn't in a TFC context where success actually has to be earned by operating more efficiently than other clubs operating to very similar budgetary constraints and long may that continue. I'd hate to see MLS become as boringly predictable as the SPL or the Premiership.

menefreghista
07-11-2011, 07:09 AM
what I was referring to was "a sense of entitlement where instant success is concerned" whenever a new coach like Winter is appointed. Reasonable enough to expect that instant turnaround at a club like Rangers, Manchester United or Inter Milan where success can essentially be bought simply by spending more than the other clubs.

Again, you miss the point completely by bringing up European teams.

Most of us are comparing TFC to other MLS teams.

In a league with a salary cap, TFC should at least be remotely competitive against the rest of the league. Instead we are offered possibly the worst TFC team ever.

And that doesn't even take into account the financial advantage TFC has over its MLS counterparts. Or the advantage it has due to roster rules (ie. the low Canadian quota).

While I think Winter is out of his depth coaching professionals, at the end of the day, TFC has a lack of talent problem. The team is full of players that just aren't good enough for the league.

spark
07-11-2011, 07:15 AM
It doesn't matter whether there has been six months or five years of shittiness overall (somewhat debatable given TFC have actually been decent at times just never for a complete season) what I was referring to was "a sense of entitlement where instant success is concerned" whenever a new coach like Winter is appointed. Reasonable enough to expect that instant turnaround at a club like Rangers, Manchester United or Inter Milan where success can essentially be bought simply by spending more than the other clubs. It isn't in a TFC context where success actually has to be earned by operating more efficiently than other clubs operating to very similar budgetary constraints and long may that continue. I'd hate to see MLS become as boringly predictable as the SPL or the Premiership.

Well in a league where for the most part the rules are the same from team to team the precedent has been more than set if you get the right coach a team can do a 180 and look very competitive by this point in the season.

I think you're off on the entitlement comment as well. What might be more accurate, and I feel most would be happy with at this point is a sense of competitiveness - which honestly is not asking for much.

Pookie
07-11-2011, 07:25 AM
Precendent more than set eh?

Which other MLS teams had missed the playoffs 4 straight seasons only to hire a new coach who took them to the playoffs in the following season?

menefreghista
07-11-2011, 07:28 AM
Precendent more than set eh?

Which other MLS teams had missed the playoffs 4 straight seasons only to hire a new coach who took them to the playoffs in the following season?

There aren't many (any?) MLS teams that miss the playoffs 4 straight seasons in the first place. We are now flirting with our 5th season in a row of no playoffs.

Its quite the feat in a salary cap league where more than half the teams make the playoffs.

spark
07-11-2011, 07:30 AM
Precendent more than set eh?

Which other MLS teams had missed the playoffs 4 straight seasons only to hire a new coach who took them to the playoffs in the following season?

Sorry should have been more specific but i'm just talking about teams who sucked, made a coaching change, and showed tangible signs by this point of the year - it's the usual suspects of course :)

Gazza
07-11-2011, 07:54 AM
The Sounders and Union are effective because they don't let dumbasses run the show for so long.

That's like the fork in the electrical outlet and then you follow it up by sticking your dick in there.

I actually do that after each TFC game. It keeps me even-keeled.

CSO_BBTB
07-11-2011, 07:57 AM
Precendent more than set eh?

Which other MLS teams had missed the playoffs 4 straight seasons only to hire a new coach who took them to the playoffs in the following season?

Occasionally there are times when it is possible for a new coach/GM regime to do well quickly in MLS. Everything was aligned just right at the end of 2008 for a new guy to come in and make a quick difference, for example. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case at the end of 2010 and to further muddy the water Winter arrived well after many key 2011 roster decisions had already been made by Earl Cochrane and co. The key stumbling block to an instant turnaround this season was all the money against the cap still tied up on guaranteed contracts from the old regime (including two players who are now playing elsewhere within the league).

Tom Anselmi should have taken responsibility for telling DeRosario to sling his hook after the cheque signing thing (then there would have been more time to find a viable alternative during the winter window) but marketing types know better than to do something that many people will bitterly disagree with. You don't make it to the top of the greasy pole in corporate terms by making moves like that. The smart corporate climber move is to get someone else to do the dirty work and let them take the flak. Hopefully that lack of strong leadership won't sink the whole Klinsmann/Ajax thing because once season ticket renewal time comes around it's probably all going to be about jockeying for position post-Peddie where some very influential people are concerned. Hopefully Koevermans and Frings make enough of a difference over the next month or two that the storm will pass.

Gazza
07-11-2011, 08:11 AM
:smilielol5:

OMG this is the funniest thing I have seen this year. I wish you guys would understand what he is saying but I firmly believe there are no better swears on this planet than Spanish and French. And this old geezer takes Spanish swears to the extreme in a hilarious way.

Since i can't understand spanish, i usually say the same thing about the scottish and swearing.

But upon seeing the version with english subtitles, i completely agree with you. I can't get enough of this clip.

Beach_Red
07-11-2011, 08:15 AM
^ you may be right, theblack of strong leadership could be a real problem. Neither Mariner nor Winter reallybhave enough reputations to carry much weight in ghe boardroom, neither one can point to past success and say, "Look, be patient, I know what I'm doing," and here's not much that's happened since they took over that gives them much to talk about.

So if it comes down to a showdown between the marketing department and the soccer guys it's not even a fair fight (even if the marketing department's success had little to do with anything they did, they will be able to sell it as their accomplishment to the little-interested, bottom-line-watching guys who run things).

Do you think Klinsmann sold this as a multi-year rebuild and warned that there be (at least) a season of embarrassing losses and no playoff revenue before it started to take
shape?

menefreghista
07-11-2011, 08:17 AM
The key stumbling block to an instant turnaround this season was all the money against the cap still tied up on guaranteed contracts from the old regime (including two players who are now playing elsewhere within the league).

This would be a viable excuse if TFC didn't have so much cap space.

In fact, possibly one of the key reasons we are so shit is that we haven't been spending to the cap.

CSO_BBTB
07-11-2011, 08:57 AM
Do you think Klinsmann sold this as a multi-year rebuild and warned that there be (at least) a season of embarrassing losses and no playoff revenue before it started to take shape?

Hopefully he gave them the straight goods on that but as with how much cap space a team actually has at any given moment in time it is one of the things that people on fan messageboards will probably never really know for sure.

Beach_Red
07-11-2011, 09:03 AM
Hopefully he gave them the straight goods on that but as with how much cap space a team actually has at any given moment in time it is one of the things that people on fan messageboards will probably never really know for sure.

What we know for sure about cap space is there was enough to sign two DPs without doing any kind of salary dump releasing or trading.

So, we could use that amount and discuss if two older DPs was the best way to use even that much cap space.

Roogsy
07-11-2011, 09:07 AM
Well in a league where for the most part the rules are the same from team to team the precedent has been more than set if you get the right coach a team can do a 180 and look very competitive by this point in the season.

I think you're off on the entitlement comment as well. What might be more accurate, and I feel most would be happy with at this point is a sense of competitiveness - which honestly is not asking for much.

This...

Apparently we're all supposed to be grateful enough we have a team and should continue throwing our hard-earned money at it regardless if it continues to bumble its way through a league where every team seems to have it's day except ours.

CSO_BBTB
07-11-2011, 09:35 AM
What we know for sure about cap space is there was enough to sign two DPs without doing any kind of salary dump releasing or trading.

Stevanovic and allocation money are the obvious grey areas on that.

Pachuco
07-11-2011, 09:38 AM
Stevanovic and allocation money are the obvious grey areas on that.

What does Stevanovic have to do with that?

CSO_BBTB
07-11-2011, 09:40 AM
Does everything really have to be spelled out completely on here to the last tiny detail? The "salary dump releasing" is what applies even if it is not an exact fit for how things were spun in media terms.

peeshman
07-11-2011, 09:41 AM
im all for signing players that can enhance the image and play of TFC from the US, Europe or S. America but do we really have no local talent that have potentially gone overseen in recent years??

Im not talking about developing players from the academy, Im talking about players that are a little older with previous european, a league, national team experience.

In my humble opinion, im pretty sure I could put together a team from the GTA, that on a any given day would give TFC a run for there money.

Players like, Desi Humphreys, Gomez, Westmass, Bedenikovic, Andre Da Silva, Nacimento, Adrian Pena, Jamal Smith, Scepanoivc, Braletic, Maletic, Pirija.

I just named a starting eleven that could play with, if not beat our current TFC squad.

Gargan, Peterson, Harden, the list goes on with players that have no business being on this squad or in this league.

I bet if you put those 3 players in the CSL, you would never guess they played at a high level in there entire lives!!

My thoughts for the day!

Beach_Red
07-11-2011, 09:45 AM
Does everything really have to be spelled out completely on here to the last tiny detail? The "salary dump releasing" is what applies even if it is not an exact fit for how things were spun in media terms.

But the point is, salary cap was easily made available to sign two DPs. Sure the allocation money is a mystery, but the salary cap cannot be used an excuse for signing players when they go and sign two DPs.

CSO_BBTB
07-11-2011, 09:48 AM
....Jamal Smith....

Can't be bothered googling but isn't that the guy who was kept around for PR reasons after the open tryouts that werewolf88 also took part in? People in Toronto's soccer community always have a sky high opinion of the quality of their soccer but the fact that TFC can field a U18 team in the CSL, which more than holds its own, demonstrates that there is a huge gap in quality between the OSL and CSL on the one hand and MLS on the other.

CSO_BBTB
07-11-2011, 09:51 AM
But the point is, salary cap was easily made available to sign two DPs. Sure the allocation money is a mystery, but the salary cap cannot be used an excuse for signing players when they go and sign two DPs.

Think you are being argumentative for the sake of it at this point. If not, I suggest you research the manner in which a DP salary is prorated during the summer window and allocation money can be used to offset it so that the cap hit is well below $100k. Don't have time to repeatedly lead people through stuff that can be easily googled.

Beach_Red
07-11-2011, 10:07 AM
Think you are being argumentative for the sake of it at this point. If not, I suggest you research the manner in which a DP salary is prorated during the summer window and allocation money can be used to offset it so that the cap hit is well below $100k. Don't have time to repeatedly lead people through stuff that can be easily googled.

Sorry, I don't mean to be simply argumentative. I'm just saying that since January a lot of roster choices have been made (not just signing new guys but deciding which guys to keep) and you're right, we just have to have faith that more often that not the best choices were made and all possible avenues were covered.

Pigfynn
07-11-2011, 10:07 AM
I admit that I get annoyed from time to time with posters talking about their apathy, but honestly, I can't really blame them for being apathetic about the club.

Pachuco is as welcome to post his apathetic frustration on the board as I am welcome to post my unrealistic and baseless optimism (yes, I still have this small belief that playoffs are possible :D).

Expressing one's apathy towards the club is still an expression of opinion. And after all, isn't that what this board is for?

Never suggested once that he didn't have the right to post what he wanted. Just think he may be happier staying away from something that he has made clear brings him very little joy. If I stopped caring about the results I can't imagine why I'd ever visit this board again. I mean if you honestly don't care...why bother?

Also, it is very obvious that he does in fact care about this team, people who don't care, don't post on fan websites.

ensco
07-11-2011, 10:08 AM
I wonder what Frings is thinking right now.

Bremen are an extremely successful, stable club - contenders almost every year (they have finished in the top 3 of the Bundesliga 6 of the last 7 years), they have had the same manager since 1999.

ExiledRed
07-11-2011, 10:16 AM
It doesn't matter whether there has been six months or five years of shittiness overall (somewhat debatable given TFC have actually been decent at times just never for a complete season) what I was referring to was "a sense of entitlement where instant success is concerned" whenever a new coach like Winter is appointed. Reasonable enough to expect that instant turnaround at a club like Rangers, Manchester United or Inter Milan where success can essentially be bought simply by spending more than the other clubs. It isn't in a TFC context where success actually has to be earned by operating more efficiently than other clubs operating to very similar budgetary constraints and long may that continue. I'd hate to see MLS become as boringly predictable as the SPL or the Premiership.

I hate to sound like Roogsy, seriously, but you keep building up these men of straw and swatting at them.

The majority of negative opinions on Winter's regime arent formulated from

-being english
-being a liverpool supporter or supporter of other 'big team'
-being clueless about modern football
-being unrealistic about results
-an undeserved sense of entitlement
-a genetically ingrained desire to 'whinge'
-inability to differentiate between MLS and euro budgetary constraints.

So lets put these allegations aside and concentrate on the real reasons people arent happy with Winter:

-poor team selections
-ineffectual signings
-player dissent and on field politics
-tactical ineptitutde
-lack of charisma, perceived inability to inspire confidence
-suspected indifference
-worst record in 5 terrible seasons.
-no demonstration of ability to turn this squad around so far.
-lack of experience.
-completely blindsided by MLS.

ensco
07-11-2011, 10:26 AM
^For all these reasons, I bet Winter quits, end of year latest.

(Exiled, you said something like this a few weeks ago, but allow me to pretend I thought of it first!)

ExiledRed
07-11-2011, 10:27 AM
Oh he'll resign if it gets worse.

The reality of the situation is probably much different from the perceptions on here that Winter has a free pass.

Whether or not people think that Winter's system is working, we are two players from Barca quality possesion based football or that what were seeing now is a necessary evil...

The real important thing is Winter's self evaluation.

If he doesnt think its working, and he thinks he is failing, he'll resign.

Roogsy
07-11-2011, 10:38 AM
Personally, I think there is something behind the rumours of "management changes" when in fact all they announced were the DP signings a couple of weeks ago. I don't think those rumours were made up out of thin air. I think there is real conflict going on in the FO and only positive results in the standings can suppress these conflicts eventually resulting in changes.

Beach_Red
07-11-2011, 10:42 AM
Personally, I think there is something behind the rumours of "management changes" when in fact all they announced were the DP signings a couple of weeks ago. I don't think those rumours were made up out of thin air. I think there is real conflict going on in the FO and only positive results in the standings can suppress these conflicts eventually resulting in changes.

If there are no conflicts in the FO of a team that gets blown out as often as this one has and everyone involved believes everything is working well, then it isn't a sports team it's a cult.

tfcleeds
07-11-2011, 10:53 AM
That's why I am here to post the way I felt about yesterday's game. Because I know there are alot of people that feel the same way. We've all read many regular supporters and posters on this forum saying their interest is at an all time low for them with this club.

I'm shocked that I didn't care about last night's game considering how dedicated I've been to this club from the beginning.

I've missed some things I should have never missed because I couldn't bear not going to a TFC game through the first 4 seasons.

So yeah, I think it's something worth talking about. But of course, you always have the smart assess telling you to get out if you don't wear TFC underwear everyday.


Must say, I totally agree with this. Yeah, I watched the Houston game (although I don't know why I did). Count me in as another whose apathy is growing in regards to this club. For me, the new European season can't come soon enough. And yes, it needs to be talked about. Because I WANT to be passionate about this club. I want to be talking about this club in the pub, eagerly anticipating the next match. But the fact is, we don't play again until the 20th of July, and the sad thing is, I don't even care. In fact I welcome this break from the putrid mediocrity we've been served up so far this season.

Fan apathy is worth talking about. MLSE should be worried about it. And we as a group should be worried about it.

Technorgasm
07-11-2011, 10:56 AM
I did not see a minute of thsi game. .

and it seems I did myself a favour.. I followed via text updates.
just wasnt many updates mentioning TFC or TFC players. . .


we don't play again until the 20th of July, and the sad thing is, I don't even care. In fact I welcome this break from the putrid mediocrity we've been served up so far this season.

CSO_BBTB
07-11-2011, 11:02 AM
Sorry, I don't mean to be simply argumentative. I'm just saying that since January a lot of roster choices have been made (not just signing new guys but deciding which guys to keep) and you're right, we just have to have faith that more often that not the best choices were made and all possible avenues were covered.

Only thing I'll add on that for now is that it's worth bearing in mind that most contracts over in Europe expire prior to the summer rather than the winter window when evaluating signings like Soolsma, Martina and Yourassowsky. Not brilliant but an upgrade on Hscanovics, Usanov and Saric 12 months previously, in my opinion. With more luck on injuries maybe the playoffs would still have been a more realistic prospect at this point. Any MLS team would struggle to deal with having its best three centre backs, main target man up front and DP get injured.

Technorgasm
07-11-2011, 11:32 AM
the word count in this thread ALONE tells me we still care a great deal abotu this team. . . . .. the horribel record might significantly effect teh interest from more ccasual fans . . . right?

Can we just get a do-over for thsi season?

rocker
07-11-2011, 11:42 AM
Fan apathy is worth talking about. MLSE should be worried about it. And we as a group should be worried about it.

Why should I be worried if someone else is apathetic about TFC though? I'm not. I had a fantastic time at the NCC final -- one of the greatest games I've attended in five years. I'll always be there, which is all that matters to me.
Similarly, I have friends who don't attend TFC games because they believe the whole league is shit and it's a place for old Euro players to retire. Do I care that they don't care? Nope.

Futhermore, supporting a club involves supporting in the good and bad times. I know people call me a prawnie because I sit and watch the game and I sit in expensive seats. But I'm still supporting the team while I know guys who sit in the south end and are thinking of giving up their seats. Who is more committed?

CSO_BBTB
07-11-2011, 11:47 AM
Terrible and horrible for me is when the club back in your native country that will always mean the most to you are being systematically asset stripped by crooked directors, who have sold the ground and are running the club deliberately at a loss so they can use it as a tax write off for their other businesses and with the assets of the club fast approaching zero you wind up checking the paper every Sunday morning to make sure there's a scoreline and that they haven't gone out of business. Meanwhile with TFC in a league like MLS with the way the league is structured even if things look bleak in the short term we have a realistic prospect of watching our team win the league championship within the next decade or so, which is something that the supporters of most top flights clubs over in Europe can't say.

werewolf
07-11-2011, 12:00 PM
Can't be bothered googling but isn't that the guy who was kept around for PR reasons after the open tryouts that werewolf88 also took part in? People in Toronto's soccer community always have a sky high opinion of the quality of their soccer but the fact that TFC can field a U18 team in the CSL, which more than holds its own, demonstrates that there is a huge gap in quality between the OSL and CSL on the one hand and MLS on the other.

I still have as many goals as Andrea Lombardo.

:hurray:

brad
07-11-2011, 12:01 PM
Terrible and horrible for me is when the club back in your native country that will always mean the most to you are being systematically asset stripped by crooked directors, who have sold the ground and are running the club deliberately at a loss so they can use it as a tax write off for their other businesses and with the assets of the club fast approaching zero you wind up checking the paper every Sunday morning to make sure there's a scoreline and that they haven't gone out of business. Meanwhile with TFC in a league like MLS with the way the league is structured even if things look bleak in the short term we have a realistic prospect of watching our team win the league championship within the next decade or so, which is something that the supporters of most top flights clubs over in Europe can't say.

What happens to TFC is we continue to suck bad enough in the short term and interest drops enough to seriously dent the bottom line (lower ticket sales, less profit at concessions, ect). I don't think it's far fetched to assume that if fortunes on the pitch don't turn around soon this is going to happen.

The questions are to what extent, how much it dents the bottom line and how that impacts MLSE's (or future owners) investments in the club.

CSO_BBTB
07-11-2011, 12:07 PM
Honestly think the hardcore following is big enough that we will never find out what MLSE's breaking point is. The Blizzard were still standing when the NASL collapsed around them because Toronto is the absolute bedrock in terms of D1 level soccer interest in North America.

tfcleeds
07-11-2011, 12:10 PM
Why should I be worried if someone else is apathetic about TFC though? I'm not. I had a fantastic time at the NCC final -- one of the greatest games I've attended in five years. I'll always be there, which is all that matters to me.
Similarly, I have friends who don't attend TFC games because they believe the whole league is shit and it's a place for old Euro players to retire. Do I care that they don't care? Nope.

Futhermore, supporting a club involves supporting in the good and bad times. I know people call me a prawnie because I sit and watch the game and I sit in expensive seats. But I'm still supporting the team while I know guys who sit in the south end and are thinking of giving up their seats. Who is more committed?

Nothing wrong with sitting in the prawnies. In fact, I prefer to watch the matches from there as well. And for the record, I had an awesome time at the NCC final as well, and I agree, it would easily be in the top 5 TFC matches I've witnessed, no doubt.

But frankly, winning a tinpot cup that we are expected to win, and quite frankly, should win every year (OK, maybe less so in future since in theory, Vancouver and Montreal should be just as competitive) doesn't make up for the absolute shite this club has served up as a whole for five years. Look, I didn't expect us to make the playoffs this year, but I did expect us to at least go down fighting not making the playoffs. And we aren't even doing that. Year 1 was pretty dire on the whole, but it was a heck of a lot better than this season.

And people should be concerned, simply because, if the diehards are finding it difficult to care, the casuals sure won't, which will spell disaster for this club going forward. I want pro soccer to not just survive in this city for the long haul, but grow its profile on the local sports scene and it's maddening to think that MLSE's short-sightedness could spell the end of this club down the road due to a lack of interest.

Thomas
07-11-2011, 12:13 PM
That's the sad part about all this. Supporters of this club can disagree. There will always be differences of opinion even when the club is doing well, let alone when the club is shitting the bed.

But this attitude of "I am a better supporter" or "I am a true supporter because I refuse to crticize the team" is not only arrogant, it's also deluded.

With every day, this team loses fans. And with less fans, comes a team with less financial resouces. This attitude of "go away if you don't like what you see" can only lead to a team that doesn't have the financial resources to bring in DPs from Europe, or build proper academies or bring in proper coaches. And then where does that leave soccer in Toronto?

If there is a reality that we all agree, it's that MLSE is interested in making money. And at some point, if the revenue reaches a plateau that does not look to increase, MLSE will make cuts, not more investments. It's not negativity that will kill this club. All the negativity in the world will not do the kind of damage that apathy will do as a result of fans losing interest. If anything, at least still caring, still posting and still being angry about the things wrong with this club shows that many still do care. What we should worry about is when people stop caring.

Some of us see the danger of what is happening to this team and we are alarmed. While others are Ostriches with their heads in the sand. Patience and positivity are only a virtue when applied reasonably, not when they become more wishful thinking than faith based on evidence.

I have been accused of arrogant or condascending posts in the past and perhaps people have a point. But these very same people very often fail to look in the mirror themselves for fear of seeing the exact same behaviour.
Why do you have to be categorized as being on one side of the fence or the other in the first place? I think that's actually part of the problem here. Some folks get so entrenched in defending their ever growing central thesis (whatever that view point might be), that it becomes increasingly challenging to understand others. That goes for the camp that sees themselves as true supports while they constantly criticize every aspect of the team....or another profile that sees themselves as true supporters while they rarely criticize any aspect of the team. I think there is a lot of space in between.

Pachuco
07-11-2011, 12:14 PM
Why should I be worried if someone else is apathetic about TFC though? I'm not. I had a fantastic time at the NCC final -- one of the greatest games I've attended in five years. I'll always be there, which is all that matters to me.
Similarly, I have friends who don't attend TFC games because they believe the whole league is shit and it's a place for old Euro players to retire. Do I care that they don't care? Nope.

Futhermore, supporting a club involves supporting in the good and bad times. I know people call me a prawnie because I sit and watch the game and I sit in expensive seats. But I'm still supporting the team while I know guys who sit in the south end and are thinking of giving up their seats. Who is more committed?

let's see. Who's more apathetic towards TFC. The guy who doesn't give a shit that attendance is dwindling and that interest in this club has gone down significantly or the guy who actually cares to talk about it on a forum?

To answer your question though, as to why you should care. The easy answer is some day you may not have a team to support locally if this keeps up.

I personally care because the game day experience gets worse and worse every year. And part of why I used to enjoy myself at BMO so much was because of the experience created by the supporters. Without TFC supporters we are back to watching the Blizzards play at Centenial.

Go TFC Go! is the chant you'll be hearing.

ExiledRed
07-11-2011, 12:23 PM
Terrible and horrible for me is when the club back in your native country that will always mean the most to you are being systematically asset stripped by crooked directors, who have sold the ground and are running the club deliberately at a loss so they can use it as a tax write off for their other businesses and with the assets of the club fast approaching zero you wind up checking the paper every Sunday morning to make sure there's a scoreline and that they haven't gone out of business. Meanwhile with TFC in a league like MLS with the way the league is structured even if things look bleak in the short term we have a realistic prospect of watching our team win the league championship within the next decade or so, which is something that the supporters of most top flights clubs over in Europe can't say.

I think I get it now.

Because of the parity, we may one day be good, before sucking again.

Why even discuss the football? We'll just feel self satisfied that we arent supporting Shipton-Under-Wychwood-Wanderers, and hold fast until parity and karma take effect.