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View Full Version : POLL: Do you honestly believe we'll make the playoffs?



TFC USA
07-07-2011, 02:01 PM
Dead serious. Thanks to this asinine playoff system we're only 3 points out of a playoff spot despite a 3-9-8 record.

Given how mindlessly positive at times this board has been despite having no wins outside of Canada, does anyone honestly think that this team is going to be a playoff team just by adding Frings and Koevermans and getting our injured players back?

pekduck
07-07-2011, 02:03 PM
Never thought we would make the playoff since game 1. I do think by Winter's 2nd season, we'll play better as a team, playoff still up in the air. Winter's 3rd season has to go to at least conference final, or it is another 3 years of my life spent on this team bring up the total to 8 and a time to call it quits, lol

ManUtd4ever
07-07-2011, 02:04 PM
No, but I think we can do some damage in the CCL group stage if we get past Real Esteli.

menefreghista
07-07-2011, 02:04 PM
The standings lie because all the teams in front of TFC have games in hand.

Besides, TFC will probably need more than 25 points in the last 14 games to make the playoffs. That means 7 or 8 wins in 14 games.

We are simply too far behind.

Ben - D.O.W.
07-07-2011, 02:05 PM
As much as I'd like to stay positive my answer would be somewhere along the lines of "no way in hell". If we make the playoffs please feel to bring this thread up and rub my face in it - I'd love to be proven wrong.

s2cazz
07-07-2011, 02:06 PM
I think we can. But my world is full of sunshine and fucking lollipops.

http://nc423.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/sunshine-demotivational-poster-1222289636.jpg

Besides, until it is mathematically impossible... Technically we can

Azerban
07-07-2011, 02:06 PM
hahahahahahaha

Dreadlocks
07-07-2011, 02:07 PM
Very slim chance, but not likely.

Won't hold my breath - voted NO

TFC USA
07-07-2011, 02:07 PM
God damn people I made this poll 5 minutes ago and it had 14 responses. :D

My answer for the record is not a chance in hell. It's highly likely we finish dead last in the league. We're not good enough and you should all listen to Roogsy more. :)

Oldtimer
07-07-2011, 02:08 PM
Never thought we would make the playoff since game 1.

+1. Actually Charleston convinced me that our backline was crap. Have seen nothing different since.

We won't be in last place, though. Vancouver is worse than us, so is New England.

Whoop
07-07-2011, 02:08 PM
Nope.

But I knew that going into the season.

Fort York Redcoat
07-07-2011, 02:09 PM
Honestly, how many "mindlessly positive" posts do you read a day? Because the .003% that I read a day may seem out of character for the teams standings but is a god damn breath of fresh air. Sorry for the outburst, but I don't yearn for the board to be homogeneous with negativity OR positivity.

That done, I don't expect playoffs. I hope for a place that would qualify us.

TFC USA
07-07-2011, 02:11 PM
Hey I said "at times" not a day. I swear I read posts here talking about Frings and Koevermans coming along off a V-Cup win being the "turning point in our season".

We've lowered our standards so much that we're content with a draw practically every game we play.

menefreghista
07-07-2011, 02:13 PM
Never thought we would make the playoff since game 1. I do think by Winter's 2nd season, we'll play better as a team, playoff still up in the air. Winter's 3rd season has to go to at least conference final, or it is another 3 years of my life spent on this team bring up the total to 8 and a time to call it quits, lol

Winter won't get a 3rd season if this team misses the playoffs next year too.

__wowza
07-07-2011, 02:14 PM
facts:



we're tied for first for most games played thus far, the team we're tied with is the first place LA galaxy who literally have double our point total.
the teams behind us have as many as FOUR games in hand.
we've got fixture congestion with the champions league in addition
we're still shaking of the boatload of injuries that paramount to a whole starting XI.
you need 40 points to realistically have a shot at a playoff spot, something we have yet to accomplish.
to meet the above criteria, we'd have to win 8 of our next 10 games.
the bulk of our home games are behind us.



welcome to fucktown!!

Fort York Redcoat
07-07-2011, 02:16 PM
http://nc423.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/sunshine-demotivational-poster-1222289636.jpg


Quoted for Awesome. This is the One, True, Sunshine Girl.

Bask in her light. etc

Feels like playoffs.

Heathen
07-07-2011, 02:16 PM
Funny how people look at the table see we're only 3 points behind but fail to notice games played and where the home/road makeup of the rest of our schedule.

Dreadlocks
07-07-2011, 02:25 PM
Would be interesting to know how many predicted the playoffs before the season. Was there a poll for that?

Beach_Red
07-07-2011, 02:33 PM
Funny how people look at the table see we're only 3 points behind but fail to notice games played and where the home/road makeup of the rest of our schedule.


So, those teams with games in hand can collapse, too, they can get injuries and no team in this league has much depth.

Yes, TFC can still make the playoffs. It'll come down to, as it always does, the last two or three games of the season. Look at the teams that have slipped into the playoffs and then gone to the Cup in this league. In MLS there really isn't much of a difference in skill between making the playoffs and missing by a few points, it really does come down to, as cliche as it is, the teams that want it the most.

rocker
07-07-2011, 02:33 PM
to many traditionalists on this board, MLS shouldn't even have playoffs as playoffs are a north american concoction.... so not making the playoffs wouldn't disappoint those people, right?

menefreghista
07-07-2011, 02:36 PM
So, those teams with games in hand can collapse, too, they can get injuries and no team in this league has much depth.

Teams will collapse for sure.

The problem for TFC is that it essentially needs 6 teams to collapse, combined with a turn in form rarely seen by this club.

Roogsy
07-07-2011, 02:38 PM
Teams will collapse for sure.

The problem for TFC is that it essentially needs 6 teams to collapse, combined with a turn in form rarely seen by this club.

This.

pekduck
07-07-2011, 02:38 PM
Winter won't get a 3rd season if this team misses the playoffs next year too.

Then it is all instant gratification over long term sustainability yet again, a queue to give up on this team. The man has a 3 year contract, I'll see after year 3. So far I've seen progress, albeit slow and painful, in the way the team is playing together.

Winter started with a plate of crap (other expansion started with a clean plate). A pile of crap does not attract quality but other crap. The players he brought on board initially are not top notch MLS quality players but it is what it is given the crap of a team this is. Later on, with addition of Ecks, Frings, and Koevanmans coming in (Stevanovic didn't work out), the quality is improving, but still over all a crappy team.

We are still losing games, fine, but they are creating more chances with open play than before. It'll be a year lost in the right cause. First 5 years are lost since there wasn't a real concrete plan in place.

We'll see.

menefreghista
07-07-2011, 02:42 PM
Then it is all instant gratification over long term sustainability yet again, a queue to give up on this team. The man has a 3 year contract, I'll see after year 3. So far I've seen progress, albeit slow and painful, in the way the team is playing together.

It shouldn't take 2 years to make the playoffs for an established MLS club. Particularly one that has the financial wherewithal to carry 3 DPs, in a league where over half the teams make the playoffs.

I wouldn't call that instant gratification. More like demanding accountability.

Besides, I'm puzzled by people who claim they see progress.

Detroit_TFC
07-07-2011, 02:44 PM
Nope. But, like others, I didn't expect to. I'm more worried whether or not we'll get 7 points in the 14 remaining games. If we get less points than in 2007, there's going to be some blowback from that.

Dave67
07-07-2011, 02:44 PM
25 points out of our last 14 games would only give us a 50/50 chance of making the playoffs. We need 26 points to get into 75/25 territory. That's 8 wins 2 draws and 4 losses. I think this is actually tougher than the miracle in Montreal. MIM was just one game, now we need that kind of run over 14 games.

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html and don't let the bar graph in here throw you off (it did on me) the graph seems to not drop below a certain level of suck.

ag futbol
07-07-2011, 02:46 PM
I'll settle for being "close" to the playoffs next year, but if shit isn't at least that far along at the end of year two, there is no point of year three.

trane
07-07-2011, 02:46 PM
to many traditionalists on this board, MLS shouldn't even have playoffs as playoffs are a north american concoction.... so not making the playoffs wouldn't disappoint those people, right?


What?????? Does this realy makes sense to you?


I do care more about CL then MLS but, and I do not like the playoff system, but for the league to work in a more traditional football way, there should also be relegation.

Beach_Red
07-07-2011, 02:51 PM
We are still losing games, fine, but they are creating more chances with open play than before. It'll be a year lost in the right cause. First 5 years are lost since there wasn't a real concrete plan in place.

We'll see.

Is MLS really a long-term-plan league or a scramble-to-fix-holes league? Is there really any reason to believe having this "plan" will work out when the bigger problem is keeping the good players around - no one with any potential wants to sign multi-year deals here.

Is there any reason to think that this plan will ever get over the hump past "creating chances" and actually start winning games?

No one asked the mew management to win a Supporters Shield or MLS Cup this year, but being the 10th best team in MLS should be possible. Other teams have started with as much "crap" as this team had in January (and certainly in November) and made the playoffs.

For some reason before the season finished last year it was decided Preki's plan wasn't going to work out. What makes a plan the relies on a higher calibre of player morelikely to work out?

Anyway, the season starts when the new DPs join the team - that's as good a roster as TFC is ever going to have as long as this salary cap is in place and then it comes down to coaching.

menefreghista
07-07-2011, 02:53 PM
http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html and don't let the bar graph in here throw you off (it did on me) the graph seems to not drop below a certain level of suck.

That site is pretty depressing, but highly interesting.

They have TFC as an 83% chance finishing bottom 3 in the league. That sounds about right to me.

prizby
07-07-2011, 02:58 PM
how can you have yes or no...i am in between

pathetic options

__wowza
07-07-2011, 02:58 PM
to many traditionalists on this board, MLS shouldn't even have playoffs as playoffs are a north american concoction.... so not making the playoffs wouldn't disappoint those people, right?


they aren't a north american concoction, because in case you havent notcied the championship has them. the league needs a playoffs system. it always has and will for roughly about the next decade.

there's no good reason why we shouldn't have one, except for those who preach that they want it to be more like other leagues.

Fort York Redcoat
07-07-2011, 03:07 PM
to many traditionalists on this board, MLS shouldn't even have playoffs as playoffs are a north american concoction.... so not making the playoffs wouldn't disappoint those people, right?

Correct.

And I believe they WERE a NA concoction. Not that it was a bad thing at the time. Like Single Entity now, it helped (and still helps) grow money strapped leagues that couldn't spend $$$ (or days) traveling throughout the regular season.

pekduck
07-07-2011, 03:08 PM
It shouldn't take 2 years to make the playoffs for an established MLS club. Particularly one that has the financial wherewithal to carry 3 DPs, in a league where over half the teams make the playoffs.

I wouldn't call that instant gratification. More like demanding accountability.

Besides, I'm puzzled by people who claim they see progress.

Other teams are improving, playing catching up is not easy, the gap won't remain constant.

Progress is not demonstrated by points count this season, it's really how the subtle improvement on playing approach and ability to create open space and options. There were none or not existent during preseason. Now there are able to create chances in the box, (can't finish that's other story), and inconsistent running off the ball are starting to show up. Positioning getting better compare to season start. They were better than when season started. The were still no better than other teams.

Demanding accountability sounds nice and dandy. Ability to improve on a continuous and sustainable pace is the accountability where it addresses issues with solutions. Doesn't matter how minor, but it is getting fixed.

Granted, it's not at a pace that everyone loves to see, but it's the growing pain.

*note, this has nothing to do with MLSE or FO or their shadiness, but just observation from Mariner, Winter and de Klark's approach and actions taken up to date.

Beach_Red
07-07-2011, 03:12 PM
Correct.

And I believe they WERE a NA concoction. Not that it was a bad thing at the time. Like Single Entity now, it helped (and still helps) grow money strapped leagues that couldn't spend $$$ (or days) traveling throughout the regular season.


Actually playoffs started when there were two baseball leagues (both single table) that didn't play against each other and a newspaper sponsored a champsionship series between the two league winners. It took a while for that championship to become a bigger deal than the individual league championships. I guess you can blame the NA fans for liking the knock-out series so much they kept adding more teams to it.

Travel costs and things like that didn't come into play until later when leagues expanded to the west coast (or teams moved there).

Super
07-07-2011, 03:15 PM
I voted no, but obviously we need to still play our chances as long as we're in the race. However, right now, I think this club would be better served by putting all of our energy and resources into making the CL - and then hopefully pushing past the group stage as well. I'd hate to see us come out of this year with nothing. Right now it's terribly important for TFC to finish the season strong and to give all the supporters a reason to believe that something good is coming around the corner.

The above being said, I'm beginning to worry that Aron Winter is just not cut out for this club.

Fort York Redcoat
07-07-2011, 03:18 PM
Actually playoffs started when there were two baseball leagues (both single table) that didn't play against each other and a newspaper sponsored a champsionship series between the two league winners. It took a while for that championship to become a bigger deal than the individual league championships. I guess you can blame the NA fans for liking the knock-out series so much they kept adding more teams to it.

Travel costs and things like that didn't come into play until later when leagues expanded to the west coast (or teams moved there).

Cool. Thanks. Check yer PM's.

DangerRed
07-07-2011, 03:22 PM
No.

http://www.deviantart.com/download/151003683/Fail_for_Dummies_by_DJ_Olaf.jpg

DichioTFC
07-07-2011, 03:24 PM
25 points out of our last 14 games would only give us a 50/50 chance of making the playoffs. We need 26 points to get into 75/25 territory. That's 8 wins 2 draws and 4 losses. I think this is actually tougher than the miracle in Montreal. MIM was just one game, now we need that kind of run over 14 games.

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/TorontoFC.html and don't let the bar graph in here throw you off (it did on me) the graph seems to not drop below a certain level of suck.


http://oi55.tinypic.com/16gnbdh.jpg

That's right, Vancouver has a marginally higher chance of getting into the playoffs than we do.

Our goal for the MLS this season should be to finish higher than Vancouver.

Sidenote: Look at that goal differential. It takes a special kind of suck to be twice the league's second worst.

Whoop
07-07-2011, 03:26 PM
Oh man... here come the fail pictures. LOL

DangerRed
07-07-2011, 03:30 PM
Better than just fail, check out this sweet Torsten Frings facepalm. I'm sure this one will get lots of play this season...
http://u.goal.com/93200/93295_news.jpg

TFCRegina
07-07-2011, 03:31 PM
http://oi55.tinypic.com/16gnbdh.jpg

That's right, Vancouver has a marginally higher chance of getting into the playoffs than we do.

Our goal for the MLS this season should be to finish higher than Vancouver.

Sidenote: Look at that goal differential. It takes a special kind of suck to be twice the league's second worst.

FAIL.

We're not twice as bad as the 2nd worst. Portland has a -9 differential, we have -17 ;)

Whoop
07-07-2011, 03:32 PM
Oh man... that's gold.

That one will be saved for sure.

Azerban
07-07-2011, 03:32 PM
how can you have yes or no...i am in between

pathetic options

get the fuck off the fence

Dave67
07-07-2011, 03:40 PM
http://oi55.tinypic.com/16gnbdh.jpg

That's right, Vancouver has a marginally higher chance of getting into the playoffs than we do.

Our goal for the MLS this season should be to finish higher than Vancouver.

Sidenote: Look at that goal differential. It takes a special kind of suck to be twice the league's second worst.


Now stare at this chart and say the following line to yourself 10 times.

I'm a paid up season ticket holder and I have to pay full price to see Real Esteli.

:)

Oldtimer
07-07-2011, 03:48 PM
The problem with using sportsclubstats is that the guy's record is actually quite poor at predicting things until it gets down to the last few games.

For example, at one point last year he had the Blue Jays having a 95% chance of making the playoffs.

I think the problem is that it doesn't accurately weight for the relative strength of the teams you play.

For example, if NY beats you, that's one thing. If Vancouver or New England beats you, it's something quite different.

Beach_Red
07-07-2011, 04:17 PM
^ It also doesn't account for changes made to the teams - TFC will be a very different team for the last half of the season so what happened during the first half isn't really that indicative of what's coming.

brad
07-07-2011, 04:19 PM
In order to make the playoffs, we have to turn the team around very quickly and go on a run unlike one we have ever been on, and do it with a whole bunch of road games.

We have two DP's coming in which will hopefully help. When the transfer window opens, hopefully Winter and Mariner can shore up the back line when the window opens.

Thing is, any new players we bring in are most likely going to take time to adapt to the team and league (league if not already MLS players). We may luck out, but it's very unlikely that they are going to hit the ground running. I think a realistic expectation is 5 - 10 games before we start to see the best of them, and maybe not even until next season.

Frings is basically in pre-season training right now, and Koevermans has hardly played in 2011.

All of this adds up to a big, fat no IMHO.

Azerban
07-07-2011, 04:22 PM
I think the problem is that it doesn't accurately weight for the relative strength of the teams you play.


if anything could do this it'd be worth a billion million dollars

Dave67
07-07-2011, 04:42 PM
The problem with using sportsclubstats is that the guy's record is actually quite poor at predicting things until it gets down to the last few games.

For example, at one point last year he had the Blue Jays having a 95% chance of making the playoffs.

I think the problem is that it doesn't accurately weight for the relative strength of the teams you play.

For example, if NY beats you, that's one thing. If Vancouver or New England beats you, it's something quite different.

I can see why that would happen to teams bunched in the middle of the pack. I suspect the numbers are fairly accurate with the top and bottom teams at this point in the season.

Looking at the 10th placed teams in the last 3 seasons we can see:

2010 36 points Chicago 30 game season
2009 40 points DCU 30 game season
2008 37 points DCU 30 game season

This season has 34 games (4 extra games per team) so it is reasonable to suspect 42 points is the minimum to get in.

In 20 games TFC has 18 points. So we are looking at 24 more points in 14 remaining games to have a decent chance to sneak in.

That's 7 wins 3 draws and 4 loss or 8 wins 0 draws 6 loss territory. Using sportsclubstats or any other method its hard to see this team doing a 180 and pulling off those kind of numbers.

If this team makes the playoffs it will be more dramatic than the miracle in Montreal. That was a 1 game turnaround, this version of the team needs to make a 14 game turnaround.

trane
07-07-2011, 05:09 PM
I acctually am one of the few that voted, that we would make the playoffs. But it is from my hate and disprispect for the rest of the league that I believe that two quality players may just make us that much better then them.

habstfc
07-07-2011, 05:25 PM
I can see why that would happen to teams bunched in the middle of the pack. I suspect the numbers are fairly accurate with the top and bottom teams at this point in the season.

Looking at the 10th placed teams in the last 3 seasons we can see:

2010 36 points Chicago 30 game season
2009 40 points DCU 30 game season
2008 37 points DCU 30 game season

This season has 34 games (4 extra games per team) so it is reasonable to suspect 42 points is the minimum to get in.

In 20 games TFC has 18 points. So we are looking at 24 more points in 14 remaining games to have a decent chance to sneak in.

Is it just me or is there an excessive amount of ties this year? It depends on other teams also, if the teams between us and 10th place tie alot or are decimated with injuries then you never know. I'm an optimist.

madcow
07-07-2011, 05:29 PM
Realistically no but voted yes. However that's what is great about sports, amazing things can happen. Why follow sports or a team if you can't expect great things?

Whoop
07-07-2011, 05:30 PM
Is it just me or is there an excessive amount of ties this year? It depends on other teams also, if the teams between us and 10th place tie alot or are decimated with injuries then you never know. I'm an optimist.

Historically MLS has a lot of draws.

AL-MO
07-07-2011, 06:51 PM
Who are the 15 who voted YES ?

Definitely no.

nfitz
07-07-2011, 08:29 PM
Who are the 15 who voted YES ?Some people have faith.

Like those with religious faith, I'm probably completely deluded. However, I'd question why any supporter wouldn't have faith.

koryo
07-07-2011, 09:18 PM
Some people have faith.

Like those with religious faith, I'm probably completely deluded. However, I'd question why any supporter wouldn't have faith.

Likely because they prefer reason over faith.

Oh yeah, I assume this poll was a joke. It was clear at the start of the season that this team would be bottom dwellers this year.

brad
07-07-2011, 09:29 PM
Likely because they prefer reason over faith.

Oh yeah, I assume this poll was a joke. It was clear at the start of the season that this team would be bottom dwellers this year.

Yet Winter still stated that playoffs were a target for this year...

AL-MO
07-07-2011, 09:57 PM
Some people have faith.

Like those with religious faith, I'm probably completely deluded. However, I'd question why any supporter wouldn't have faith.

Some people are CRAZY.

The best part about the last win over Vancouver is now we actually have something to play for with the two new players.

jazzy
07-07-2011, 10:02 PM
+1. Actually Charleston convinced me that our backline was crap. Have seen nothing different since.

We won't be in last place, though. Vancouver is worse than us, so is New England.

shit want the first pick in the draft....excitng scoring prospect

Toronto_Bhoy
07-07-2011, 10:08 PM
God Bless those 17 souls…

Waggy
07-07-2011, 10:57 PM
Not reading 3 pages so sorry if it's been said already but

PLAYOFFS?! Playoffs? You're talking about playoffs?! I just want to win a game!


http://youtu.be/Qwq7BYOnDrM?t=39s

Azerban
07-08-2011, 12:00 PM
90% No vote in this thread, 90% not-No vote in the Winter approval thread

congrats everyone, we did it; we're the dumbest people, the experiment is over, shut down everything and return to bigsoccer

Roogsy
07-08-2011, 12:01 PM
90% No vote in this thread, 90% not-No vote in the Winter approval thread

congrats everyone, we did it; we're the dumbest people, the experiment is over, shut down everything and return to bigsoccer


:lol:

TFCRegina
07-08-2011, 12:36 PM
90% No vote in this thread, 90% not-No vote in the Winter approval thread

congrats everyone, we did it; we're the dumbest people, the experiment is over, shut down everything and return to bigsoccer

LOL.

Pachuco
07-08-2011, 12:43 PM
+1. Actually Charleston convinced me that our backline was crap. Have seen nothing different since.

We won't be in last place, though. Vancouver is worse than us, so is New England.

Vancouver is only worst then us when we play them at home. I also feel like they are in every game they play. In fact probably 8 times this year I was sure they were going to win the game and they go and mess that up somehow. Just have a feeling they'll start winning some of those close one's they've lost the first half of the season.

Oldtimer
07-08-2011, 02:18 PM
90% No vote in this thread, 90% not-No vote in the Winter approval thread

congrats everyone, we did it; we're the dumbest people, the experiment is over, shut down everything and return to bigsoccer

You are assuming that people should judge Winter based on short-term results.

Maybe most people believe in the longer-term promise.

BFin
07-08-2011, 02:40 PM
I dishonestly believe we can do it.

Azerban
07-08-2011, 02:46 PM
Maybe most people believe in the longer-term promise.

yeah, that's what i said

TFCin110
07-08-2011, 02:49 PM
You are assuming that people should judge Winter based on short-term results.

Maybe most people believe in the longer-term promise.

Well yes, Winter should have us winning the MLS Cup after 6 months.....get with the program. :rolleyes:

Ossington Mental Youth
07-08-2011, 02:53 PM
this year or in general?

Azerban
07-08-2011, 02:53 PM
this year or in general?

would it change your answer

Shakes McQueen
07-08-2011, 04:50 PM
What is the point of this poll? I'm guessing even people who think Winter is doing a decent job probably sway strongly to "No" this season.

The stats are firmly against us. Short of an epic run when Koevermans and Frings start playing for us, we aren't doing anything this season.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
07-08-2011, 04:51 PM
And while we are at it - who the fuck voted yes?!

On what alternate reality do you base your vote?

- Scott

flatpicker
07-08-2011, 05:09 PM
As far as the MLS season is concerned, I would just like to see a strong finish by Toronto.
I want to see the players (including our new additions) coming together as a unit.
Just some sign that the team is taking shape, and expectations for next year are raised.

Aside from that, I also hope for a good run in the Champions League.

nfitz
07-08-2011, 06:01 PM
And while we are at it - who the fuck voted yes?!I did. What kind of supporter would ever vote no?


On what alternate reality do you base your vote?I have faith. Many people have faith in their being a supreme being. If people can be that utterly deluded, can't my faith at least include that we win a few games here and there? We are only one win short of being tied for 9th place.

Couchy81
07-08-2011, 07:41 PM
I'm guessing even people who think Winter is doing a decent job probably sway strongly to "No" this season.




Of course we sway no - it's called being realistic. We also aren't spazzing out over Winter just yet. There have been flashes of what he is trying to accomplish visible in some of our matches the first half of the season. I will say he's a failure when he has capable players on the pitch who lose 6-2 at home and 5-0 away. Key word being capable.

Beach_Red
07-08-2011, 09:14 PM
And while we are at it - who the fuck voted yes?!

On what alternate reality do you base your vote?

- Scott

I voted yes because TFC will be a much better team the second half of the season. By then there won't be a substantial skill difference between TFC and whichever team they're fighting for 10th place and, like every other year it'll come down to the last game or two. If they lose then it'll be because of a lack of heart or because they get outcoached and that will tell us the direction of this long-term rebuild isn't working.

I don't expect them to go very far in the playoffs but if they can't make it to 10th place with two DPs and 10 other players brought in by this management they never will.

Super
07-08-2011, 09:33 PM
Based on the team as it is today: no. But with our new DP's, and maybe a CB or two, who knows? It's a funny league that way. Either way, I want us to compete for something - so it's either MLS or CL for me. I think we have a very good chance of making it to the group-stage in the CL. If we do that, and finish strong in the MLS, I'll be very happy. Even if we don't make the play-offs.

DichioTFC
07-08-2011, 09:38 PM
In 20 games TFC has 18 points. So we are looking at 24 more points in 14 remaining games to have a decent chance to sneak in.

That's 7 wins 3 draws and 4 loss or 8 wins 0 draws 6 loss territory.

This is the remainder of TFC's schedule (CCL excluded). I'm as optimistic as they come, but I can't see 8 wins in there.

http://i51.tinypic.com/2ajw6tt.png

If we all of a sudden catch fire, and start winning on the road (and we have some very beatable teams on the road), we could make it over 24 (I very generously guesstimated 29 points if we start winning on the road). But its so unlikely.

This month will tell us where we are: playing three beatable teams on the road and hosting the league's best team (FCD) at home. If we get 2 wins on the road and at least a draw at home, I'll change my tune. But until then, I think the playoffs will be out of our reach this season.

KRO
07-08-2011, 09:39 PM
We're not making the playoffs. Accepting that is very Zen. Once the injured and new signings are part of the team we will be worth watching and next season will be awesome.

TFC USA
07-08-2011, 09:54 PM
Some people have faith.

Like those with religious faith, I'm probably completely deluded. However, I'd question why any supporter wouldn't have faith.

I have faith that Kate Middleton, Selma Hayak, and that chick who is the main character on Being Erica will all come to my door and I'll have the greatest night of my life.

I'm probably deluded but any man should have faith. :D

TFC USA
07-08-2011, 09:57 PM
I voted yes because TFC will be a much better team the second half of the season. By then there won't be a substantial skill difference between TFC and whichever team they're fighting for 10th place and, like every other year it'll come down to the last game or two. If they lose then it'll be because of a lack of heart or because they get outcoached and that will tell us the direction of this long-term rebuild isn't working.

I don't expect them to go very far in the playoffs but if they can't make it to 10th place with two DPs and 10 other players brought in by this management they never will.

Interesting argument. What makes you suggest that? Our -17 goal differential (we're the only team in MLS I think with a double digit goal diff in the negative)? Our 0 wins outside of BMO Field? I see some individual talent like Plata that's worth watching but as a team we've gotten our asses kicked and kicked often when we lose.

If Frings and Koevermans really turn this team around then Winter needs a fucking statue outside the stadium.

brad
07-08-2011, 10:06 PM
You are assuming that people should judge Winter based on short-term results.

Maybe most people believe in the longer-term promise.

Except - Winter said that playoffs were a goal for this year. He's failing on one of his targets, and that should cause some level of concern that he may be failing on others as well.

brad
07-08-2011, 10:13 PM
I voted yes because TFC will be a much better team the second half of the season. By then there won't be a substantial skill difference between TFC and whichever team they're fighting for 10th place and, like every other year it'll come down to the last game or two. If they lose then it'll be because of a lack of heart or because they get outcoached and that will tell us the direction of this long-term rebuild isn't working.

I don't expect them to go very far in the playoffs but if they can't make it to 10th place with two DPs and 10 other players brought in by this management they never will.

It's most likely going to take several games (I'd suspect at least 5-10) for the new DP's get their match fitness up, get accustomed to the league and the team.

By that point it will be too late.

Beach_Red
07-08-2011, 10:25 PM
Interesting argument. What makes you suggest that? Our -17 goal differential (we're the only team in MLS I think with a double digit goal diff in the negative)? Our 0 wins outside of BMO Field? I see some individual talent like Plata that's worth watching but as a team we've gotten our asses kicked and kicked often when we lose.

If Frings and Koevermans really turn this team around then Winter needs a fucking statue outside the stadium.

Two DPs, maybe another defender and mostly healthy roster.

Maybe the question should be, how many points out of 10th place would be acceptable? There are two expansion teams this year, but last year TFC finished in 11th place, one point back of 10th. How big a step back in order to take two steps forward is acceptable? Three points back? Five? Ten?

If TFC can't make up ground the rest of this season and pass a few teams ahead, what makes us think they'll be able to pass teams next year?

nfitz
07-09-2011, 12:12 AM
I have faith that Kate Middleton, Selma Hayak, and that chick who is the main character on Being Erica will all come to my door and I'll have the greatest night of my life.

I'm probably deluded but any man should have faith. :DThat's the spirit! :flare: :flare:

james
07-09-2011, 03:56 AM
lossing to NY 5-0, ya we got no chance!

19Barrett19
07-09-2011, 07:03 AM
with a road win tonight TFC will make playoffs a reality. I think the sched gets easier for our boys and with the new additions our line-up will be stronger then most in MLS. First 11 take a look
----------------FRIE-------------------
Eks-------Nana------New CB-----Borman
---------Tchani--------Deguz-----------
----------------Frings-----------------
Soolsma-------Danny-------Plata-----

and thats the starting 11 now you have a bench to plug holes
Harden
Sturgis
Martina
Santos
Gordon
Yourass
Kocic
Gargan
ect.
not in that order...... I hope the new DP's fit well. They are Pros from better leagues and i bet they know this system very well.... A win tonight and a DP goal maybe 2 at BMO on the 20th and all of you will be saying playoffs like me ... anything else we can write this season off and try CCL at least get out of the group stage anything can happen.

J .
07-09-2011, 03:10 PM
^ TFC will go nowhere with Soolsma and Plata as attacking starters.

Roogsy
07-09-2011, 10:27 PM
If we had a 0.5% probability of the playoffs after the NYRB game, you gotta think we're hitting "almost impossible" country now.

We now need probably 24 points in 13 games, or 1.84 PPG. That is better than the start that the LA Galaxy have had to this year so far. Meaning we have to be the #1 team for the rest of the season just to maybe squeak into 10th place.

Blowing Bubbles
07-09-2011, 10:28 PM
lolol

nfitz
07-10-2011, 03:51 PM
So now we've made the Champions League - how much extra cap space do we get? And we're allowed extra players too?

Waggy
07-10-2011, 08:39 PM
It's nice to know there's 21 people more delusional then I am. Well, here's hoping. It's not impossible, just INCREDIBLY improbable

nfitz
07-10-2011, 09:19 PM
It's nice to know there's 21 people more delusional then I am. Well, here's hoping. It's not impossible, just INCREDIBLY improbableIf everyone here was as pessimistic no one in Canada would buy lottery tickets!

So how does us making the Champion's league impact our cap and roster size?

whyalwaysme11
07-10-2011, 11:38 PM
watching this timbers sounders game for the second time is motivating
f this
we cant go down like this we cant
why is are team falling apart
why i just don't get it

TORONTO TILL I DIE
NEVER MIND ALL YOU HATERS

:flare:

brad
07-11-2011, 08:11 AM
So how does us making the Champion's league impact our cap and roster size?

It doesn't.

Oldtimer
07-11-2011, 09:04 AM
If everyone here was as pessimistic no one in Canada would buy lottery tickets!

So how does us making the Champion's league impact our cap and roster size?


It doesn't.

Good guess, but actually, it does:


Allocation Money
Allocation money is a resource available to clubs in addition to their respective salary budgets.
A club may receive allocation money for:


failure to qualify for the MLS Cup Playoffs;
the transfer of a player to a club outside of MLS for value;
expansion status;
qualification for the CONCACAF Champions League;

http://www.mlssoccer.com/2011-mls-roster-rules

It's the only exception to parity in the non-DP general cap rules. Clubs get rewarded for being good.

Allocation is essentially extra free cap space.

whyalwaysme11
07-11-2011, 10:34 AM
Good guess, but actually, it does:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/2011-mls-roster-rules

It's the only exception to parity in the non-DP general cap rules. Clubs get rewarded for being good.

Allocation is essentially extra free cap space.


oldtimer.
this post right here...
is just bang on.
we need more facts on this site like this.

habstfc
07-11-2011, 02:38 PM
I actually voted yes because I had a feeling we might win in houston. I have to keep the slightest of hopes alive to justify spending all that money on gas, parking, food etc. for the remaining games.

Roogsy
07-11-2011, 03:20 PM
Good guess, but actually, it does:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/2011-mls-roster-rules

It's the only exception to parity in the non-DP general cap rules. Clubs get rewarded for being good.

Allocation is essentially extra free cap space.

Does that allocation come before we play Real Esteli or only if we beat them?

trane
07-11-2011, 04:12 PM
watching this timbers sounders game for the second time is motivating
f this
we cant go down like this we cant
why is are team falling apart
why i just don't get it

TORONTO TILL I DIE
NEVER MIND ALL YOU HATERS

:flare:


Yes, I love to see my club, be shit game in and game out, WOOOWOWOWOWOW, as long as we are drinking and having a good time, who gives a shit as to what happens on the pitch? MLSE TILL I DIE

I am a real OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLTRA. GIVE ME ONE MORE 5 YEAR PLAN. I love them.

TFC USA
07-11-2011, 04:47 PM
Some people are clearly fucking around. We lose and two more people voted yes. :eek:

trane
07-11-2011, 05:14 PM
I did not completley adhere to this idea, I had hoped that as a seperate division of the MLSE TFC could develop a seperate culture. But I have to say that the corporate culture accepts lossing to easily, it is too quick to make excuses, and simply seems not to know how to win.

I support the new management and the new diretion. But three wins and the overall effort seems to suggest that before we learn any system, we need to learn how to win, or at least to battle. I know people are tiered of hearing about it, but that is one of those things that we had in early going, mostly because veterans like Dichio.

Azerban
07-11-2011, 05:16 PM
we're only 4 points out of a playoff spot

trane
07-11-2011, 05:17 PM
^ hahahahahahaha. That's the spirit.

Nicholas982
07-11-2011, 05:17 PM
Lossing really sucks. Even moreso than losing. :flare:

trane
07-11-2011, 05:23 PM
Lossing really sucks. Even moreso than losing. :flare:

OK.

When you say moreso, you mean more so???

eustacchio
07-11-2011, 05:33 PM
snap

MartinUtd
07-11-2011, 05:33 PM
Honestly.. how much time were you willing to afford the new management team when the season began? They've been dealt a shit hand and yes they've put out a shit team. Can we at least wait until the new DP's have settled in (let alone join the team) before having a cry?

Wildgreek
07-11-2011, 05:38 PM
as long as the Corporation makes a profit, why would they care if the team wins or loses

Bars92
07-11-2011, 05:41 PM
Theme on the boards seems to be get down on the team now in case these new players don't work out so as to avoid disapointment later on. Its almost inconcievable now that this team could ever be good.

BFin
07-11-2011, 05:43 PM
I'm at a loss for all the lossing around here.


Edit: Mods, for the love of god can't we put this in the Winter thread, or any of the other ones about how the team won't make the playoffs?

Oldtimer
07-11-2011, 05:53 PM
I'm at a loss for all the lossing around here.


Edit: Mods, for the love of god can't we put this in the Winter thread, or any of the other ones about how the team won't make the playoffs?

merged into the playoffs thread.

Canary_canuck
07-11-2011, 06:01 PM
as long as the Corporation makes a profit, why would they care if the team wins or loses
My son and I have been partial STHs since day 1 (frequent job travel precluded full STH ) but we finally gave up this year. IMO ( and I have followed professional soccer in the UK for over 50 years) the ownership situation has a huge impact on a team both on and off the field. My favourite team is Norwich City ( home of Simeon Jackson and formerly of Carl Robinson and Jim Brennan ).2 years ago they dropped to the equivalent of Division 3 for the first time in 50 years and lost their first home game at the new lower level 7-1.The team's Board promptly hired the opposing manager and in two years are back in the Premiership.My point? A devoted,committed soccer knowledgeable Board led by celebrity chef Delia Smith whose " Let's be having you rant " in a losing cause endeared her to Canary fans and made her a bit of a laughing stock elsewhere. Also on the Board is famed actor Stephen Fry. These people LOVE the Canaries and that is why when they fell two divisions their fan support stayed stable at 25,000 a game ( not bad for a small city). MLSE are great for their shareholders ( as they should be ) but their connection to the fans is non-existent.Longer term this is not a good business model.When the owners again respect the fans we look forward to returning as STHs. The recent signings are a step in the right direction.

Toronto_Bhoy
07-11-2011, 06:03 PM
we're only 4 points out of a playoff spot

That is exactly the mindset of a "losing culture".

MLSE live of this. They've made millions…funded condos on prime real estate…built the largest pension fund in the world. All of which is founded on "look, we're only 4 points from a playoff spot".

The culture there feeds on itself. Mention the Leafs. Raptors. TFC. Everyone loves them. Mention MLSE, everyone thinks their money gouging greedy bastards!

I know a number of employees who work/worked for MLSE and each one has told me, when people ask who do you work for if the say MLSE, people snarl, bitch or complain. Say you work for the Leafs, Raptors or TFC…people are like…Cool! Must be fun!

MLSE are negative and toxic in perception and reality. People in this city hold them accountable for Toronto being the "Worst Sporting City in North America".

They just don't care as long as they make money. And once this cash cow stops producing milk and starts costing them real cash off the bottom line…they'll sell it…or move it. They don't care…its business.

Sorry for the rant.

Azerban
07-11-2011, 06:09 PM
That is exactly the mindset of a "losing culture".

MLSE live of this. They've made millions…funded condos on prime real estate…built the largest pension fund in the world. All of which is founded on "look, we're only 4 points from a playoff spot".

The culture there feeds on itself. Mention the Leafs. Raptors. TFC. Everyone loves them. Mention MLSE, everyone thinks their money gouging greedy bastards!

I know a number of employees who work/worked for MLSE and each one has told me, when people ask who do you work for if the say MLSE, people snarl, bitch or complain. Say you work for the Leafs, Raptors or TFC…people are like…Cool! Must be fun!

MLSE are negative and toxic in perception and reality. People in this city hold them accountable for Toronto being the "Worst Sporting City in North America".

They just don't care as long as they make money. And once this cash cow stops producing milk and starts costing them real cash off the bottom line…they'll sell it…or move it. They don't care…its business.

Sorry for the rant.

didn't know mlse built an empire on my sarcasm

where is my piece

BFin
07-11-2011, 06:22 PM
merged into the playoffs thread.

Thanks OT!

Brooker
07-11-2011, 06:25 PM
as long as the Corporation makes a profit, why would they care if the team wins or loses

Because they can make even more money. Team gets better, plays more games, sells more tickets, sells more concessions, sells more merchandise... etc etc

Technorgasm
07-11-2011, 06:25 PM
i believe int the power of love. . . .

and love has little basis in rational thought.

TFC play off bound.

Toronto_Bhoy
07-11-2011, 06:34 PM
didn't know mlse built an empire on my sarcasm

where is my piece

Oh, I picked up on your sarcasm, Azerban.

My point was, your sarcasm is their commitment to hope, "Once in the playoffs anything can happen."

Problem is there's no commitment to get there…

Toronto_Bhoy
07-11-2011, 06:40 PM
Because they can make even more money. Team gets better, plays more games, sells more tickets, sells more concessions, sells more merchandise... etc etc

You mean like their flagship brand the Leafs?

Harold Ballard built the business model that you can make tons without spending any! It's easier to save a buck then earn one.

Sold out building. Number one in NHL merchandising. Outrageous concession prices. Best TV deal in the league. Adored by a nation.

Why spend more?

The culture at MLSE doesn't allow them to do that.

BFin
07-11-2011, 06:59 PM
You mean like their flagship brand the Leafs?

Harold Ballard built the business model that you can make tons without spending any! It's easier to save a buck then earn one.

Sold out building. Number one in NHL merchandising. Outrageous concession prices. Best TV deal in the league. Adored by a nation.

Why spend more?

The culture at MLSE doesn't allow them to do that.

What?

We signed 2 DP's and invested $20 million in a training/academy facility in the last couple months. If the plan was to spend as little as possible why would they have done that?

rocker
07-11-2011, 07:05 PM
What?

We signed 2 DP's and invested $20 million in a training/academy facility in the last couple months. If the plan was to spend as little as possible why would they have done that?

yeah, the facts don't fit the common narrative. TFC and LA Galaxy are also the only teams in the league with three DPs, meaning that TFC also had to fork out $$$$ to the league for using that third slot.

Pigfynn
07-11-2011, 07:10 PM
Please don't let the opinions of random and sometimes biased people on a public internet message board be your source for facts or even news on anything.

There's so much anger here that reality is nowhere in sight most days.

Bars92
07-11-2011, 07:58 PM
If anything TFC should be the one shot at redemption for MLSE. They know the Raptors and Leafs are a lost cause because no Americans want to play in Toronto in the NBA and no Canadians want to play in Toronto in the NHL, especially with the salary caps. TFC is their once chance to literally buy a championship, which would be impossible with the other two.

Redcoe15
07-12-2011, 12:17 AM
i believe int the power of love. . . .

and love has little basis in rational thought.

TFC play off bound.
I wish we could bottle your optimism and sell it for a profit Techno.

nfitz
07-12-2011, 12:32 AM
Does that allocation come before we play Real Esteli or only if we beat them?I'd assume before. It says qualify for Champions League. And we've qualified for the preliminary round.

Roogsy
07-12-2011, 12:57 AM
I'd assume before. It says qualify for Champions League. And we've qualified for the preliminary round.

That's the confusing part for me. We haven't actually qualified yet, we play Real Esteli in a qualification round. So is it the qualification round that automatically generates the allocation space for us or do we have to pass the qualification round and actually make it into the Champions League group stages?

james
07-12-2011, 01:40 AM
That's the confusing part for me. We haven't actually qualified yet, we play Real Esteli in a qualification round. So is it the qualification round that automatically generates the allocation space for us or do we have to pass the qualification round and actually make it into the Champions League group stages?

its pretty simple, we have to beat Real esteli in the 2-leg serious. If TFC win the 2-leg serious then TFC are put into the Champions League group stage. If they lose the 2-leg serious they are out of the tournament.

Roogsy
07-12-2011, 01:48 AM
That's not what I am referring to. I already know that. My question is at what point do we qualify for the allocation from MLS?

james
07-12-2011, 02:29 AM
That's not what I am referring to. I already know that. My question is at what point do we qualify for the allocation from MLS?

oh i see what you mean. I dont know, for some reason i could see it being in the group stage when they get that allocation, as far as i see it they arent in Champions League yet. I dont know MLS rules are confusing as hell tho. Id say teams should beable to spend what they want for tournaments such as Champions League...but thats just me.

Roogsy
07-12-2011, 02:52 AM
Yeah that's the questionable part. I guess we'll see.

Alonso
07-12-2011, 03:21 AM
I wish we could bottle your optimism and sell it for a profit Techno.

Or bottle the drugs... :D

That, we could sell for a profit!

.... haha, no I agree with Techno. Optimism is KEY

trane
07-12-2011, 09:04 AM
MLSE is trying to win, they just do not know how to win, it is not part of their corporate DNA, winning is just too low on their scale of importance. I did not suscribe to this theory last year, not completley, but there is just a lack of passion, they are having a shit season, and no one seems upset, there seems to be no pressure to win.

Again I still support Winter, and I still believe we can make the playoffs, but when I see the corporate expression there does not seem to be enough passion for winning, or fighting. After a 5-0 loss, someone in the FO would have laid down the gauntlet, instead MLSE makes excuses. We have been making excuses, supported by many of you for 5 years. We started demading as a group last year, and they responded, I appluad them for that, but now we are stagnating again. They are bringin in two DPs. Great, but they have to be held accountable.

Toronto_Bhoy
07-12-2011, 09:38 AM
What?

We signed 2 DP's and invested $20 million in a training/academy facility in the last couple months. If the plan was to spend as little as possible why would they have done that?



My posts have pertained to a thread that was merged with this one…Does MLSE have a losing culture?

MLSE have indeed spent money but they are the cost of "doing business" and ensuring sustainability, which money making companies do. Have they spent the money needed to win or changed the culture? I don't believe so. MLSE refused to pay the price on football management and coaching in the franchises infancy, which we are continuing to pay for. 6 coaches in 4 1/2 seasons…poor spending decisions on player personnel…little money for scouting…

And despite all of this, MLSE still continue to make excellent profit, the best ROI of the four sports franchises they own! And this Club has the third worst record in the entire league! Look at the expansion clubs since we joined the league 5 years ago. All are ahead of us (Portland have 4 games in hand) except Vancouver…Philly and Seattle are second in their respective divisions.

MLSE has a losing culture because they don't need a winner to make a profit…therefore losing is an acceptable business risk…which is a great business model.

nfitz
07-12-2011, 05:47 PM
That's the confusing part for me. We haven't actually qualified yet, we play Real Esteli in a qualification round.It's not called the qualification round. It's called the preliminary round.

See this news Headline on CONCACAF's website:

Toronto FC tops Vancouver to qualify for CCL (http://www.concacaf.com/page/CL/NewsDetail/0,,12813~2390502,00.html)

CONCACAF has always been consistent about this in the past. Referring to the 16 teams that have made preliminary round, as having qualified for the Champions League.


So is it the qualification round that automatically generates the allocation space for us or do we have to pass the qualification round and actually make it into the Champions League group stages?Except there is no such thing as a "qualification round". The question becomes:

"So is it the preliminary round that automatically generates the allocation space for us or do we have to pass the preliminary round and actually make it into the Champions League group stages?". And at that point, I think the answer becomes clear, based on how CONCACAF and MLS have used the word "qualify" and "preliminary" previously.

whyalwaysme11
07-12-2011, 08:50 PM
i believe int the power of love. . . .

and love has little basis in rational thought.

TFC play off bound.


I SECOND THIS
PROB THE GREATEST COMMENT I HAVE EVER READ
IF I WOULD OF USED THIS WAY OF THOUGHT LAST WEEK I WOULD STILL HAVE A GF
.
sorry what is the difference between mlse and robert kraft??? past performance? new england went to hell in less than two years what does that mean? the owner doesnt care anymore i dont think so. there are so many factors that contribute to a teams performance i dont think any of us can properly comment on ownership and the success of a franchise. but it is nice to sit back and read some of these interesting comments.

DangerRed
07-13-2011, 09:12 AM
Yeah that's the questionable part. I guess we'll see.

I'd be willing to bet that since most MLS teams are U.S.-based, and U.S. teams don't have to play through a qualifiying round if they are entering the CCL (ie they go straight into the group stage) then the allocation money would be awarded to TFC only if we make the group stage.

Roogsy
07-13-2011, 09:45 AM
It seems we have two different answers. I guess we will just have to hope that we make it past Real Esteli to make sure we get that allocation.

The reason I asked the question is if making it to the group stage is the requirement, then getting past Real Esteli becomes all that much more important. But if we don't make it past Real Esteli and still get the allocation, it's at least a small consolation.

nfitz
07-13-2011, 03:27 PM
I'd be willing to bet that since most MLS teams are U.S.-based, and U.S. teams don't have to play through a qualifiying round if they are entering the CCL (ie they go straight into the group stage) then the allocation money would be awarded to TFC only if we make the group stage.It would be a pretty poor bet. One-half of the US teams also play in the preliminary round - and this is a big problem for MLS, their teams frequently lose in the preliminary round!

Wouldn't be any sense waiting until after the preliminary round to increase the allocation ... it only gives a very short period to start spending it.

On the other hand, http://www.mls-rumors.net/12990/2010/12/report-seattle-general-manager-confirms-concacaf-champions-league-teams-will-receive-more-money-from-mls will be allotted some allocation money for the group stage ... and more money if they make it to the quarter finals.

DangerRed
07-13-2011, 03:37 PM
It would be a pretty poor bet. One-half of the US teams also play in the preliminary round - and this is a big problem for MLS, their teams frequently lose in the preliminary round!

Wouldn't be any sense waiting until after the preliminary round to increase the allocation ... it only gives a very short period to start spending it.

On the other hand, http://www.mls-rumors.net/12990/2010/12/report-seattle-general-manager-confirms-concacaf-champions-league-teams-will-receive-more-money-from-mls will be allotted some allocation money for the group stage ... and more money if they make it to the quarter finals.

Hmm -- see Seattle is one of the teams playing in the prelims. AND their manager is the one talking about the extra money AND he's using past tense.

"Seattle Sounders FC General Manager, Adrian Hanauer, on Joshua Mayers’s Seattle Times blog, in a live chat with Sounders fans last week, confirmed that MLS teams which qualified for the CONCACAF Champions League will be given more allocation money to bolster their squads."

So perhaps we've already received this money? If I was, you know, a sports reporter, I'd probably go ask Winter that question.

Shakes McQueen
07-13-2011, 05:45 PM
My posts have pertained to a thread that was merged with this one…Does MLSE have a losing culture?

MLSE have indeed spent money but they are the cost of "doing business" and ensuring sustainability, which money making companies do. Have they spent the money needed to win or changed the culture? I don't believe so. MLSE refused to pay the price on football management and coaching in the franchises infancy, which we are continuing to pay for. 6 coaches in 4 1/2 seasons…poor spending decisions on player personnel…little money for scouting…

And despite all of this, MLSE still continue to make excellent profit, the best ROI of the four sports franchises they own! And this Club has the third worst record in the entire league! Look at the expansion clubs since we joined the league 5 years ago. All are ahead of us (Portland have 4 games in hand) except Vancouver…Philly and Seattle are second in their respective divisions.

MLSE has a losing culture because they don't need a winner to make a profit…therefore losing is an acceptable business risk…which is a great business model.

The big new training/academy facility they are building isn't part of the "cost of doing business". It isn't even a league-wide norm.

I've always maintained that MLSE aren't cheap - they are willing to splash some money around. Not on the astronomical level of, say, the people who own the Yankees, or the Galaxy, but well above-average.

The problem with MLSE is a structural one. They've got too many fingers in too many pies. They've got too many priorities in addition to simply winning, (though I really do think guys like Anselmi want to have winning clubs).

People always try to point to money in their criticisms of MLSE, because it's simple bogeyman, yet teams that spend less than MLSE's manage to win more. The issue is more complex than that.

- Scott

ExiledRed
07-13-2011, 07:45 PM
This is my first post in this thread.

and I voted 'no' by the way.

Cashcleaner
07-13-2011, 08:14 PM
The big new training/academy facility they are building isn't part of the "cost of doing business". It isn't even a league-wide norm.

I've always maintained that MLSE aren't cheap - they are willing to splash some money around. Not on the astronomical level of, say, the people who own the Yankees, or the Galaxy, but well above-average.

The problem with MLSE is a structural one. They've got too many fingers in too many pies. They've got too many priorities in addition to simply winning, (though I really do think guys like Anselmi want to have winning clubs).

People always try to point to money in their criticisms of MLSE, because it's simple bogeyman, yet teams that spend less than MLSE's manage to win more. The issue is more complex than that.

- Scott

Which is somewhat more damning in a way. If a lack of resources is no excuse for a poor record, what reasons are we left with? Incompetence? It's unfortunate, but that's pretty much what we are left with, is it not?

The Leafs spend up to the cap and I believe the Raptors get close to it as well. Not sure how the Marlies are financed, but understand that they are playing in their own privately owned arena and have a dedicated practise facility as well. There are teams and sports organizations that manage with much less but seem to suffer less misfortunes than MLSE-owned clubs.

It's odd, because given the financial backing TFC has, we REALLY should be in better shape this far into our existence.

Shakes McQueen
07-13-2011, 08:29 PM
Which is somewhat more damning in a way. If a lack of resources is no excuse for a poor record, what reasons are we left with? Incompetence? It's unfortunate, but that's pretty much what we are left with, is it not?

The Leafs spend up to the cap and I believe the Raptors get close to it as well. Not sure how the Marlies are financed, but understand that they are playing in their own privately owned arena and have a dedicated practise facility as well. There are teams and sports organizations that manage with much less but seem to suffer less misfortunes than MLSE-owned clubs.

It's odd, because given the financial backing TFC has, we REALLY should be in better shape this far into our existence.

Like I said - I think it's just structural. Too many overseers, too many "properties" in the portfolio, too many fingers in too many pies.

Putting everything through a board generally means they are slower to react to needed changes, as well. I just don't know if "incompetence" is a sufficiently complex answer to it.

We also can't discount the element of pure good fortune that exists when it comes to getting the "right" GM, or the "right" coach", with the "right" players, at the "right" time. Sports has never been an exact science.

- Scott

Cashcleaner
07-13-2011, 08:43 PM
^ Yeah, that could be it for sure. On a fundamental basis of oversight, I think you could easily argue a lack of focus on team performance. That's pretty much why I think TFC needs a dedicated club President like Colangelo or Burke are for the Raptors and Leafs, respectively. Some people like Tom Anselmi and some don't. I certainly don't hate the guy, but I will say that he shouldn't be making any team-related decisions with regards to TFC, primarily because of his self-admitted lack of experience and the fact that as Executive Vice President and COO of MLSE, he already has enough on his plate!

I agree that just overall incompetence is too simple an answer. But I do think it is a mix of bad decisions being made by a lot of people with conflicting areas of expertise and vision.

Redcoe15
07-13-2011, 08:53 PM
Which is somewhat more damning in a way. If a lack of resources is no excuse for a poor record, what reasons are we left with? Incompetence? It's unfortunate, but that's pretty much what we are left with, is it not?

The Leafs spend up to the cap and I believe the Raptors get close to it as well. Not sure how the Marlies are financed, but understand that they are playing in their own privately owned arena and have a dedicated practise facility as well. There are teams and sports organizations that manage with much less but seem to suffer less misfortunes than MLSE-owned clubs.

It's odd, because given the financial backing TFC has, we REALLY should be in better shape this far into our existence.

http://gtips.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/hammer_striking_nail.jpg

Dreadlocks
07-13-2011, 09:02 PM
It seems we have two different answers. I guess we will just have to hope that we make it past Real Esteli to make sure we get that allocation.

The reason I asked the question is if making it to the group stage is the requirement, then getting past Real Esteli becomes all that much more important. But if we don't make it past Real Esteli and still get the allocation, it's at least a small consolation.

According the WiKipedia (the only clear source I could find), 24 teams qualify, 16 of which participate in a preliminary round. This means 8 teams make the 16 team group stage directly and the remaining 8 are the successful preliminary winners.

Soooooo if this is accurate we got paid when we won the NCC because the preliminary round is considered part of the CCL. The stipulation is that a team receives allocation money if it qualifies for the CCL. No mention of the group stages.

Wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_CONCACAF_Champions_League

Concacaf link (not quite as clear)
http://www.concacafchampions.com/page/CL/201112/0,,12856,00.html

whyalwaysme11
07-13-2011, 09:30 PM
i wonder how different it would be if we were owned by rogers

Beach_Red
07-13-2011, 09:56 PM
Like I said - I think it's just structural. Too many overseers, too many "properties" in the portfolio, too many fingers in too many pies.

Putting everything through a board generally means they are slower to react to needed changes, as well. I just don't know if "incompetence" is a sufficiently complex answer to it.

We also can't discount the element of pure good fortune that exists when it comes to getting the "right" GM, or the "right" coach", with the "right" players, at the "right" time. Sports has never been an exact science.

- Scott

Yeah, this is true. And maybe you can't emphasize enough the difficulty of running something that does have such a big element of luck like a sports team with a board of directors. The kind of decision-making that happens with a board isn't just slower it's usually consensus based and often more concerned with making sure a really poor decision isn't made rather than making a bold decision.

Hiring someone like Mo Johnston was easy because the league recommended him - that's easy to sell to a board, it looks like due dilligence has been done. Hiring a consultant like Soccer Solutions is an easy sell to a board because they'll produce a written report that probably looks like a lot of pother reports they've seen in their other businesses.

Asking a player like Jason Kreiss to become a head coach is a gut move made by a guy who got to know him for a few years and put the proper supports in place for him to at least have a good chance to be successful. TFC doesn't have anything like that. If they did then Danny Dichio would be the coach and there'd be a really experienced GM he could lean on and who would be a buffer between the team and MLSE.

Shakes McQueen
07-14-2011, 05:53 AM
Yeah, this is true. And maybe you can't emphasize enough the difficulty of running something that does have such a big element of luck like a sports team with a board of directors. The kind of decision-making that happens with a board isn't just slower it's usually consensus based and often more concerned with making sure a really poor decision isn't made rather than making a bold decision.

Hiring someone like Mo Johnston was easy because the league recommended him - that's easy to sell to a board, it looks like due dilligence has been done. Hiring a consultant like Soccer Solutions is an easy sell to a board because they'll produce a written report that probably looks like a lot of pother reports they've seen in their other businesses.

Asking a player like Jason Kreiss to become a head coach is a gut move made by a guy who got to know him for a few years and put the proper supports in place for him to at least have a good chance to be successful. TFC doesn't have anything like that. If they did then Danny Dichio would be the coach and there'd be a really experienced GM he could lean on and who would be a buffer between the team and MLSE.

Exactly. And maybe TFC will one day have that same comfort level, where we have steady, competent management for a while (it remains to be seen if Winter et al. are those guys), and we can hire an eventual successor from within, and hand him a strong foundation to work with. Seems like a distant dream, eh? :D

I actually think bringing in Klinsmann's group as a consultant was the right move to make this winter, particularly after the demise of the Mo era. But hiring a coach - especially a rookie one - is never a sure thing. The Scotty Bowman's of the world, coaches who have success everywhere they go, are exceedingly rare.

But even if Winter doesn't work out, I think MLSE were wise to lean on the knowledge of an experienced and tenured European manager, instead of just hiring another guy the league recommended. Hopefully it means they are learning.

- Scott

Oldtimer
07-14-2011, 06:59 AM
According the WiKipedia (the only clear source I could find), 24 teams qualify, 16 of which participate in a preliminary round. This means 8 teams make the 16 team group stage directly and the remaining 8 are the successful preliminary winners.

Soooooo if this is accurate we got paid when we won the NCC because the preliminary round is considered part of the CCL. The stipulation is that a team receives allocation money if it qualifies for the CCL. No mention of the group stages.

Wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_CONCACAF_Champions_League

Concacaf link (not quite as clear)
http://www.concacafchampions.com/page/CL/201112/0,,12856,00.html

You have to look at MLS's motivation for giving the allocation in the first place: they have been embarrassed by MLS clubs doing so poorly in international competition in the past. Last year's run by RSL was the first in a long time, and it was last year that they introduced the special CCL allocation, there may be a link between the two (besides just great management by Kreis).

That allocation is a major departure from how MLS has acted in the past, because like most North American sports leagues, they reward failure and punish success. This allocation rewards success, and it's only the desire to do well internationally that made them do this change, because it upsets the parity in the league somewhat.

They will want the allocation to go through as soon as possible for every club in order to maximize the MLS clubs of picking up someone during the summer transfer window and going on deep CCL runs. So I can't see them taking a "wait and see how well they do" approach. That would defeat the purpose of the special allocation.

Oldtimer
07-14-2011, 06:59 AM
But even if Winter doesn't work out, I think MLSE were wise to lean on the knowledge of an experienced and tenured European manager, instead of just hiring another guy the league recommended. Hopefully it means they are learning.

- Scott

Agreed.

menefreghista
07-14-2011, 07:24 AM
But even if Winter doesn't work out, I think MLSE were wise to lean on the knowledge of an experienced and tenured European manager, instead of just hiring another guy the league recommended. Hopefully it means they are learning.

Are you talking about Winter here?

Experienced and tenured are 2 words I wouldn't use to describe him.

Shakes McQueen
07-14-2011, 07:27 AM
Are you talking about Winter here?

Experienced and tenured are 2 words I wouldn't use to describe him.

I was referring to Klinsmann. They leaned on the knowledge of Klinsmann in searching for our new manager, instead of just hiring another league-approved stooge.

- Scott

Azerban
07-14-2011, 07:28 AM
I was referring to Klinsmann. They leaned on the knowledge of Klinsmann in searching for our new manager, instead of just hiring another league-approved stooge.

- Scott

Experienced and tenured are 2 words I wouldn't use to describe him either.

Shakes McQueen
07-14-2011, 07:34 AM
Experienced and tenured are 2 words I wouldn't use to describe him either.

I actually agree that "tenured" was an over-reach, though I think "experienced" is fair.

- Scott

brad
07-14-2011, 08:04 AM
i wonder how different it would be if we were owned by rogers

It would likely be worse...

Fort York Redcoat
07-14-2011, 08:07 AM
i wonder how different it would be if we were owned by rogers


It would likely be worse...

Did Harold Ballard have a son? Perhaps he'd be interested...

ag futbol
07-14-2011, 08:10 AM
It would likely be worse...
I tend to disagree.

The have more of a vested interest in being competitive because they recognize more synergy in the form of advertising dollars from media properties.

Asides from that, if we were to take the Jays record over the past few years and extrapolate that on any other league... they'd be a playoff team 50% of the time based on their record. That's something no MLSE team has done and for the jays it's also against teams that in some cases have superior amounts of resources.


Year-by-year results
Year W-L Pct. Finish
2010 85-77 .525 4th
2009 75-87 .463 4th
2008 86-76 .531 4th
2007 83-79 .512 3rd
2006 87-75 .537 2nd
2005 80-82 .494 3rd

brad
07-14-2011, 08:13 AM
You have to look at MLS's motivation for giving the allocation in the first place: they have been embarrassed by MLS clubs doing so poorly in international competition in the past. Last year's run by RSL was the first in a long time, and it was last year that they introduced the special CCL allocation, there may be a link between the two (besides just great management by Kreis).

That allocation is a major departure from how MLS has acted in the past, because like most North American sports leagues, they reward failure and punish success. This allocation rewards success, and it's only the desire to do well internationally that made them do this change, because it upsets the parity in the league somewhat.

They will want the allocation to go through as soon as possible for every club in order to maximize the MLS clubs of picking up someone during the summer transfer window and going on deep CCL runs. So I can't see them taking a "wait and see how well they do" approach. That would defeat the purpose of the special allocation.

Do MLS clubs have to feed money made in CCL games back to the league? If so, that is most likely the driver at the MLS for allocation for CCL. More games means more $$$.

Beach_Red
07-14-2011, 08:58 AM
I actually think bringing in Klinsmann's group as a consultant was the right move to make this winter, particularly after the demise of the Mo era. But hiring a coach - especially a rookie one - is never a sure thing. The Scotty Bowman's of the world, coaches who have success everywhere they go, are exceedingly rare.



Like Ensco's quote from the Chinese guy saying in 1972 that it's too soon to evaluate the French Revolution, it's too soon to know if bringing in the consultant was the right move, but I think even if it was the right move they didn't keep him under contract long enough or make sweeping enough changes to the FO. They hired a new coach and GM and that's pretty much it. MLSE has always been filled with Machivellian office politics and struggles for control (remember the Leafs with Pat Quinn and Ken Dryden). TFC may be a lot smaller but it may be the same. Assistant GMs from the old regime still here, new guys who don't know the relationships.

The team has no personality because groups take on the personality of their leader and there's been no leader. Is it Klinsmann? Is it Anselmi? Is it Winter? Where does the buck stop?

That's why it was good to hear Winter this week saying he was going to trade players - it was really the first time he's said anything that it made it sound like he felt this was his team.

Cashcleaner
07-14-2011, 12:09 PM
i wonder how different it would be if we were owned by rogers


It would likely be worse...


I tend to disagree.

The have more of a vested interest in being competitive because they recognize more synergy in the form of advertising dollars from media properties.

Asides from that, if we were to take the Jays record over the past few years and extrapolate that on any other league... they'd be a playoff team 50% of the time based on their record. That's something no MLSE team has done and for the jays it's also against teams that in some cases have superior amounts of resources.


Year-by-year results
Year W-L Pct. Finish
2010 85-77 .525 4th
2009 75-87 .463 4th
2008 86-76 .531 4th
2007 83-79 .512 3rd
2006 87-75 .537 2nd
2005 80-82 .494 3rd

And it should be noted that the Jays are playing in the toughest division in MLB. To get a better idea of how well a club plays, you also need to take into account the quality of their opponents and with baseball and you can't deny the powerhouses of the Yankees and Red Sox have a big impact on the Jay's seasonal records.

With MLS, we don't seem to have the same sort of perennial dynasties as baseball does (yet, at least), but rather a steady turnover of teams that rise to greatness before falling back into the pack every few years or so. Again, like people point out - this league is all about parity.

Anyway, without rambling off too much, I agree that Rogers could very well be a great owner for TFC. I have little doubt that they would spend the resources in a similar manner that MLSE currently does and I think most importantly, they would spent the money a bit better.

Roogsy
07-14-2011, 03:14 PM
Do MLS clubs have to feed money made in CCL games back to the league? If so, that is most likely the driver at the MLS for allocation for CCL. More games means more $$$.



Ooooooh...good question. That is very interesting. Canada goes to the CCL as a representative of Canadian soccer as winners of a CSA sanctioned tournament. Does any revenue sharing go to MLS or the CSA? Now you have me intrigued.

TFCRegina
07-14-2011, 04:17 PM
Even with these moves. No.

Roogsy
07-15-2011, 01:28 AM
Even with these moves. No.


Basically too little too late for the league.

These are moves that will hopefully pay off in the CCL.

Shakes McQueen
07-15-2011, 06:04 AM
As I said a few pages ago, whatever you think of the moves we've made, or the job Winter is doing, playoffs are simply a statistical near-impossibility. We would have to go an an epic tear to salvage this MLS season.

CCL is our one hope to do something.

- Scott

Oldtimer
07-15-2011, 07:09 AM
I always thought this season would be a write-off, but hoped we would squeak into the CCL, and that reinforcements would give us a chance to go somewhere there.

ManUtd4ever
07-15-2011, 07:41 AM
I know I would be far more excited by an extended run in the CCL as opposed to the MLS playoffs. Unfortunately, I don't think the fan base at large feels the same way.

Beach_Red
07-15-2011, 08:47 AM
How the team misses the playoffs may be more important than if they miss the playoffs.

This team has been eliminated in the past by losing must win games badly and that can't happen if they're really building for the future. If the team really is building then they'll do better the rest of the season than they have so far and that will keep them close to the playoffs. If they then miss out of the playoffs by losing some very close, hatd-fought games to better teams that's one thing - but if they lose like they have in the past it will be tough to see the progress.

MLS playoffs are the top ten teams. Maybe the question shouldn't be will they make the playoffs, but how many places from the bottom?

I think TFC will finish ahead of at least five teams.

Roogsy
07-15-2011, 10:45 AM
How the team misses the playoffs may be more important than if they miss the playoffs.

This team has been eliminated in the past by losing must win games badly and that can't happen if they're really building for the future. If the team really is building then they'll do better the rest of the season than they have so far and that will keep them close to the playoffs. If they then miss out of the playoffs by losing some very close, hatd-fought games to better teams that's one thing - but if they lose like they have in the past it will be tough to see the progress.

MLS playoffs are the top ten teams. Maybe the question shouldn't be will they make the playoffs, but how many places from the bottom?

I think TFC will finish ahead of at least five teams.

My prediction in this thread was 4-5 points out. I maintain that still. I like the moves but you still have to account for players coming in and adjusting themselves to a new team and even more importantly a new system. Writing off the first couple of games as adjustment periods you only have 10-11 games left in the season. Even making a run at the end of the season of 2.0 PPG you're still not even pushing 40 points yet, not enough to get you in.

We finish 14th.

GlenM
07-15-2011, 02:36 PM
I think this is revelant:

Playoffs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oSFYxDGKy8&feature=related

GlenM