TFC @ NY, July 6, post-match rant

[Oldtimer]

* sigh *

[PopePouri]

Harden needs to go away.

[Nicholas982]

:michael::fluffy:

[Batman]

back to the team we know and love

[Azerban]

winter is a bad coach

hand wave this away with some bull about 'our precious system', i won't read it

[JavierMartini]

lolol 5-0 <3

[DichioTFC]

Get through Saturday's game, then 11 days for the injured to heal and the two new DPs to join.

[Soccerpro]

Players tonight who showed some skill - Plata.

That is all.

[Batman]

men against boys.

ugly..not worth typing any more about it

[ag futbol]

Post game analysis:

http://fuse711.edublogs.org/files/2010/11/ap-1h8gjuj.jpg

Next!

[DichioTFC]

winter is a bad coach

hand wave this away with some bull about 'our precious system', i won't read it

I'm coming to this conclusion as well. If the players on the pitch aren't capable of handling a 4-3-3, its time to make adjustments.

Honestly, I would've preferred a 5-4-1 and having a chance to leave NJ with a point.

[Nicholas982]

Only thing you need to be a fan of this team is a ready supply of mind-altering substances. If you're not moshed by the 45th minute you're not doing it right.

[boysblue]

schedule does not get much easier either. if winter does not make victory over two legs in the cl qualifier his priority then he must go. i have little confidence in him though.

[Keyman]

I thought we played well.




















Ha.

[Flipityflu]

are funerals entertainment?

[Azerban]

I thought we played well.




















Ha.

we did.

it was the 80 minutes after that that killed us

[ChrisFizik]

back to reality somewhat. Only solace I can think of is that it wasn't DeRo's boot on the other end of some of those Red Bull goals.

[PopePouri]

"Errr tis pity. If you watch the game, we gave away the goals".

[mclaren]

Knife through Butter.

[bman27]

I wish I could say i was surprised but what can you expect playing basicly a B squad against the most firepower in the league.


the only thing thats keeping me going is that hopefully in two weeks time (barring more injuries) we will look more like this
---------------------Frei-----------------------
Eckersley---New Cb---Williams/Nana----Borman/Yourassowsky
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------De Guz-------------Tchani/Sturgis------------
----------------------Frings----------------------
-Soolsma---------Koevermans-------Plata

with both Santos and Gordon off the bench, instead of the crap we saw today

[Davenport]

Amateur coaching from Winter...you can tell this is his first job.
The difference in class between those 2 teams was 4 divisions.
Embarrassing.

[Heathen]

Says a lot that in the second half Eckersley, playing at centre half, felt he had to take the responsibility for making attacking runs from midfield.

[123 elite]

time for some debbie downerisms.

Same old same old. Lame, clueless and from what i saw of the 2nd half it was mostly (i think 8) Winter's team. Perhaps we should play Vancouver every week. That was worse than the Philly game. How could it get worse than the Philly game?

I seriously think the only way that the new DPs are going to make a difference is if they tell Winter to FO and decide how to play themselves.

[torontocelt]

The system!

That is all.

[QSIM]

If you were to hear this match up:

Harden, Gargan, Zavarise, Martina, Borman, Morgan, Stinson

VS

Henry, Rodgers, Mccarty, Lindpere, Ream, Agudelo

...5-0 isn't a shock, that squad tonight simply wasn't good enough.

Hats off to Plata though, busted his balls making runs in the second half with no help.

[Shakes McQueen]

We came out pretty strong for the first 20-25 minutes, but then New York made adjustments and we didn't counter them at all. Once we gave up those two quick ones, it was over. Winter deserves blame in this one for not adjusting.

Hopefully Frings and Koevermans can make a splash when they start in a couple of weeks. Not much else to be said.

- Scott

[sashavukelich]

i thought Tchani looked scared today...i was really unimpressed with his effort, Sturgis did look a little better however.

[Heathen]

If you were to hear this match up:

Harden, Gargan, Zavarise, Martina, Borman, Morgan, Stinson

VS

Henry, Rodgers, Mccarty, Lindpere, Ream, Agudelo

...5-0 isn't a shock, that squad tonight simply wasn't good enough.

Hats off to Plata though, busted his balls making runs in the second half with no help.

Bullshit, a 5-0 defeat in a league as set up for parity as the MLS is never acceptable. Rodgers came from League 1 ffs, Lindpere from Estonia, McCarty was given away by Dallas these aren't world beaters.

[bman27]

not cutting any slack winter what so ever, his sub choices were baffling to me but is it poor tactics or a simple lack of football iq from the side? the only times we ever looked anywhere close to dangerous was when the play was going through plata, so why was the play going through the obviously out of shape Martina for 80% of the time we had the ball? god knows its probably both

[DichioTFC]

the only thing thats keeping me going is that hopefully in two weeks time (barring more injuries) we will look more like this
---------------------Frei-----------------------
Eckersley---New Cb---Williams/Nana----Borman/Yourassowsky
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------De Guz-------------Tchani/Sturgis------------
----------------------Frings----------------------
----Santos---------Koevermans-------Plata---------


I'd rather have Santos starting on the wing than Soolsma. Cant wait to get that new CB.

[Pookie]

5-0 eh?

At least there wasn't a playoff spot on the line... :(

[Shakes McQueen]

not cutting any slack winter what so ever, his sub choices were baffling to me but is it poor tactics or a simple lack of football iq from the side? the only times we ever looked anywhere close to dangerous was when the play was going through plata, so why was the play going through the obviously out of shape Martina for 80% of the time we had the ball? god knows its probably both

They were at first. New York adjusted, and marked Plata into oblivion for the rest of the game.

- Scott

[Dreadlocks]

The game was lost by the midfield and Winter. I can kind of excuse the midfield because of injuries and the lack of fitness etc.

As for Winter, the only explanation I can think of is that from before the season started he knew we would be crap and felt no reason to coach to win. I guess he's kind of taking the approach that is being discussed in other threads. He is coaching to develop - not for results. Tonight is a perfect example. At 2-0 the game was still in reach and Winter brings in Stinson and Morgan. Around the same time NY brings in Agudelo.......hmmm ok. Next Winter brings in Zavarise as the final sub. NY brings in Ballouchy (One of the reasons why Dero was expendable). Two coaches with completely different agendas.

Anyway, Gargan is my man of the match. Good for you Dan!

Boy do I need a smoke!

:stogey::stogey:

[Shakes McQueen]

Bullshit, a 5-0 defeat in a league as set up for parity as the MLS is never acceptable. Rodgers came from League 1 ffs, Lindpere from Estonia, McCarty was given away by Dallas these aren't world beaters.

Yep, 5-0 is never an acceptable result in this league. The guys gave up after the first two goals, and that's unacceptable.

A loss on the road is one thing - but 5-0 is always an embarrassment.

- Scott

[torontocelt]

5-0 eh?

At least there wasn't a playoff spot on the line... :(

I think with old man Winter at the helm we might never have to worry about play offs, save some money at least.

[MartinUtd]

I wish I could say i was surprised but what can you expect playing basicly a B squad against the most firepower in the league.


the only thing thats keeping me going is that hopefully in two weeks time (barring more injuries) we will look more like this
---------------------Frei-----------------------
Eckersley---New Cb---Williams/Nana----Borman/Yourassowsky
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------De Guz-------------Tchani/Sturgis------------
----------------------Frings----------------------
-Soolsma---------Koevermans-------Plata

with both Santos and Gordon off the bench, instead of the crap we saw today

Exactly. While I'm puzzled by some of Winter's decisions, you can't really blame him when the injuries include our two biggest scoring threats, our best midfielder and apart from Ecks, our three best defenders.

I'm more disappointed in the individual efforts of the following deadbeats:
Mikael Yourassowsky
Ty Harden
Danleigh Borman
Nathan Sturgis
Tony Tchani
Javier Martina

Those six are this years versions of Usanov, Hscanovich, Nane, White, Gala and Saric.

[MartinUtd]

Anyway, Gargan is my man of the match. Good for you Dan!



Seconded! Very impressed with Danny boy today. With efforts like that I have no problem with im keeping a spot on this team.

[bman27]

Bullshit, a 5-0 defeat in a league as set up for parity as the MLS is never acceptable. Rodgers came from League 1 ffs, Lindpere from Estonia, McCarty was given away by Dallas these aren't world beaters.

League one and Estonia aren't probably that far off when you compare quality to MLS, and big Strong forwards like Rodgers excel in this league.

[raj100]

for a possession oriented team, we arent holding onto the ball all that well...

personally i think winter should be looking over the whole operation, the leader of our change from a mls team, to one that wants to emulate that brilliant dutch style, but to do that he should be sitting up in the box seats, rather than the touchline.. bring in a coach who has a proven track record, with this style, of course (rijkaard anyone?) and have winter look over the whole progression from a front office position

[ag futbol]

I don't want to dwell too much on this (this is all going to get said ad nauseum) but I have to make the following point:

Whether we are the most talented team in the league or an average side, we need a better tactical adjustments from our manager than we got tonight. And no, I don't mean giving up on a 4-3-3 or anything radical. I mean simple stuff like spacing between your defense and midfielders, etc...

That's the difference between a 3-0 and a 5-0 game today and a 2-0 or 1-1 game in the future. I don't care how much talent Winter amasses, you can't shit the bed tactically as bad as he did today and expect to get anywhere.

[Whoop]

The difference between TFC and NYRB.

Forget about the DPs.... NYRB picks up guys like Lindpere and Solli, TFC picks up guys like Soolsma and Martina.

[123 elite]

more like


I.


the only thing thats keeping me going is that hopefully in two weeks time (barring more injuries) we will look more like this
---------------------Frei (yes but now with confidence shattered)-----------------------
Eckersley (yes but probably wondering why he should bother ---New Cb (who exactly?) ---Williams/Nana (not impressed/ injured and angry) ----Borman/Yourassowsky (dumb and diver)
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------De Guz (oh FFS get rid of him already)-------------Tchani/Sturgis (Oh dear we have problems)------------
----------------------Frings (unproven in MLS and on a retirment free-ride)----------------------
-Soolsma (The slow train to BMO) ---------Koevermans (see frings)-------Plata (everybdy mark him...he's teh danger guy)

with both Santos (johnny long shot once every few weeks) and Gordon (complete with crutches) off the bench, instead of the crap we saw today ....

[PopePouri]

It came down to lack of ability. Only one goal came from decent movement off the ball and that was Lindpere. The rest were all lapses at the back. It's not tactics if you get beaten in the air or miss a clearance. Yes there was space but for the first 30 minutes, TFC were creating chances and easily have gone up one except for poor finishing. Yourass did nothing, Tchani looked like he had ring-rust. I had no complaints when they were replaced.

[ensco]

For all the crap we gave Preki, it's striking to compare this game to the one we played in NY last August.

We were clearly outplayed then too, but we held our shape, and only lost 1-0. Like it or lump it, that was actually a system we were playing. We had chances in that game to steal a point.

We are not playing any system now, we are pretending to play 4-3-3, and we are just out of too many games.

[DangerRed]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sNDFfgvnrXE/Si8H6ArzbBI/AAAAAAAAClY/yAD84sp5rDk/s320/are+you+not+entertained.jpg

[69Chevy396]

This team will talked about in future years as the worst club in the history of mls

[bman27]

more like

....

Hate on De Guzman all you want, I've done my fair share myself but I don't think anyone can argue the difference in the midfield from Saturday with tonight without him.

[Whoop]

The first 20-25 minutes were entertaining... then the team just got sucked into the vortex.

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/12/17/128740045715884091.jpg

[swan]

I'd rather have Santos starting on the wing than Soolsma. Cant wait to get that new CB.

damn skippy..

[brad]

Hate on De Guzman all you want, I've done my fair share myself but I don't think anyone can argue the difference in the midfield from Saturday with tonight without him.

Hard to compare though because Vancouver are just as bad as we are and NYRB are really good. We've been crap with JDG more often than not.

[Dreadlocks]

The game was lost by the midfield and Winter. I can kind of excuse the midfield because of injuries and the lack of fitness etc.

As for Winter, the only explanation I can think of is that from before the season started he knew we would be crap and felt no reason to coach to win. I guess he's kind of taking the approach that is being discussed in other threads. He is coaching to develop - not for results. Tonight is a perfect example. At 2-0 the game was still in reach and Winter brings in Stinson and Morgan. Around the same time NY brings in Agudelo.......hmmm ok. Next Winter brings in Zavarise as the final sub. NY brings in Ballouchy (One of the reasons why Dero was expendable). Two coaches with completely different agendas.

Anyway, Gargan is my man of the match. Good for you Dan!

Boy do I need a smoke!

:stogey::stogey:


Ok so I'm going to quote my own comment because the more I read and think about this, the more it makes sense.

For the entire year everyone on here has called out Winter for his in-game tactics/substitutions or adjustments (or lack there of). Correct me if I'm wrong but if you are not coaching for wins but rather to teach a 'system' you can't change things in game until the basic concept is understood and executed - no? So you keep trying the same basic tactic regardless of what happens in the game.

Next, if your not coaching to win, your substitutions that you make may not improve the play during that particular game but should give a chance to other players (the kids in particular) to figure out their role within the tactical system.

Not making excuses for the guy but I HAVE to believe that there is a method to his madness. If there's not, it's going to be a rather long 3 years through which I most likely will lose interest in this team which is sad.

For now... GO REDS!

(and please don't say I'm not a true fan because I may lose interest. I'm as Toronto as they come. Trust me.)

[Toronto_Bhoy]

This team has no soul...no personality...no heart.

[algieb]

basicaly played with 8 men tnight borman always in no mans land chani never got going looked half hearted in chalenges cant pass water never mind a ball and before people say he is a young prospect passing a ball is a basic skill required from anyone playing midfield, dont think he will ever make the grade,martina never gets into any rythm drifts out off games far to easily, plays half hearted, and also agree winter has no tactical skills to run a team it just seams to be pot luck when he wakes up has a brain stormer with his cat or whatever and thats the way we will go beating vanc never pulled the wool over my eyes we are still the worst team in the league, we will bring in better players but so will the other teams,

[J .]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sNDFfgvnrXE/Si8H6ArzbBI/AAAAAAAAClY/yAD84sp5rDk/s320/are+you+not+entertained.jpg


Thank god for attacking football :scarf:

[Jenkins12]

Borman, Sturgis, Soolsma, Martina and Yourssowsky are not good enough.

To the guy that said Frings is unproven in the MLS and on a reitrement free ride, you obviously don't know Torsten Frings, he is all heart and plays 100% for 90 minutes he's not on any free ride and unproven in the MlS is kind of a joke for a great midfielder like Frings.

If you said he's 34 and may not have the ability he used to, then I'd see where your coming from.

5-0 says it all, what a load of shit..I'm one that usually sticks up for Winter but it won't be long before I join the 'Winter out' bandwagon with performances like that.

[Vince Whirlwind]

Just how complicated is the 4-3-3 to learn, anyways? Must be verging on astrophysics level if by now, we've seen next to no progress with this sytem.

Seriously, I don't know the ins and outs of it...should it really take this long for guys who play the game day in and day out since they were little kids??

Is it a doomed experiment with the level of talent in the MLS? I feel Ecks, Frings, Plata, Kooeverman and Gordon are our elite players and could handle it...everybody else....meh.

[ensco]

Bet those Real Esteli tix are flying off the shelves tonight.

[TFCRegina]

About what I expected.

[bman27]

This team has no soul...no personality...no heart.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2ilblvn.jpg

[Roogsy]

I am now a believer.

I think i am beginning to see the progress everyone has been talking about for weeks. Thank god my eyes have been opened.

#roogsyislatetotheparty

[TFCmatty]

embarrassing.

outclassed and unlucky.

[brad]

Just how complicated is the 4-3-3 to learn, anyways? Must be verging on astrophysics level if by now, we've seen next to no progress with this sytem.

Many of the players lack fundamental technical ability and don't really have football brains. We have players that can't do the basics - stuff like complete a short pass, use their first touch to create space, move into space when not in possession.


Seriously, I don't know the ins and outs of it...should it really take this long for guys who play the game day in and day out since they were little kids??

Problem is, these guys lack the skills they should have learned when they where 8-12 years old. You can't teach a player in their 20's the basics that these guys lack.

IMHO it's not so much that we are failing because we are trying to play a 4-3-3, it's that we are trying to play a possession based game without players that can actually do that. Switch to a 4-5-1 or a 4-4-2 and try to play possession football and we would have the same problems.

[no1redsfan]

The thing I don't get is.........

It may take an entire season to adjust to Winter's philosophy, but then.........

half these players won't be here next year.

In that case, won't you just be starting all over again ?

[adam1001]

This team has no soul...no personality...no heart.
I agree wholeheartedly. We may have not been that great a few years back, but at least players like dichio and robinson played their hearts out. I've accepted that we are rebuilding yet again, but I honestly do not see this team going anywhere in the years to come.

[Vince Whirlwind]

Many of the players lack fundamental technical ability and don't really have football brains. We have players that can't do the basics - stuff like complete a short pass, use their first touch to create space, move into space when not in possession.



Problem is, these guys lack the skills they should have learned when they where 8-12 years old. You can't teach a player in their 20's the basics that these guys lack.

IMHO it's not so much that we are failing because we are trying to play a 4-3-3, it's that we are trying to play a possession based game without players that can actually do that. Switch to a 4-5-1 or a 4-4-2 and try to play possession football and we would have the same problems.


Thanks for the response - yeah, kind of thought it was more a talent level thing than a system that was so outrageous, it took years to master. Would seem to me we need 4 Ecks, 3 Frings - 2 Platas and a Kooverman/Gordon to make this thing work.

[Yagbod]

I agree wholeheartedly. We may have not been that great a few years back, but at least players like dichio and robinson played their hearts out. I've accepted that we are rebuilding yet again, but I honestly do not see this team going anywhere in the years to come.

Gutted (again!!!), but this is the MLS. Things don't make sense. One year in last, the next: contending.

That rule applies to all teams, right? Right!?

[trane]

Harden is not a CB, all his instincts are wrong. He was not the only issue in this game, but I am tiered of seeking him play at CB, everything about his game is wrong.

[ag futbol]

News flash: we are never going to sign enough talent to afford to be as tactically naïve as we were today. You can’t just go out there and say “we’re going to play 4-3-3” and sit on your hands while the opposing coach starts making adjustments to pick at your weak spots.

[TFCRegina]

This team has no soul...no personality...no heart.

Disagree. They have all of that. Just very very little talent. And most of the talent is on loan.

[billyfly]

How do fire Winter though. (I think I want to)

[TFCRegina]

I am now a believer.

I think i am beginning to see the progress everyone has been talking about for weeks. Thank god my eyes have been opened.

#roogsyislatetotheparty

Let's not do this. Only reinforces that unnecessary troll belief.

Team played with heart today.

And demonstrated the talent level hasn't changed a whole hell of a lot.

Still aren't good enough to play. Still aren't good enough to score.

Simple as that.

No need to be trolling sarcastic. No matter how hilarious (in a: i want to cry way) or true it might be.

[Pachuco]

I predict MLSE offers a refund for tonight's match after that debacle.

[TFCRegina]

How do fire Winter though. (I think I want to)

We fire Winter and replace him with who?

This is my big problem. Better to have shitty stability for 2 years than none for less than a season.

[billyfly]

We fire Winter and replace him with who?

This is my big problem. Better to have shitty stability for 2 years than none for less than a season.

I think this is very debatable.

[FluSH]

Positives... We are boosting ticket sales at other cities - increasing their support for local football!

[mastermixer]

Hey on a positive tonight's game was on TSN nationally. :facepalm:

[LesH]

Right after it was 2-0 I did not watch more even 1 minute from this game, and I came back to the forum well after game was finished.
I was 100% sure we're done after 2-0 (as I posted then in the game thread), but... I did not expected worse than a 0-3. The sad thing is I'm not surprised at all with the 0-5.

After winning the Voyageurs Cup a lots of regulars of the forum got drunk with cool aid. Do never forget that our opponent, the Shitecaps, was by far the worst team from MLS, and... yes!... that we are just a hair a better team than the Shitecaps.

Having the 2 new DP-s is great, but IMO still would be a miracle if me make the playoffs with this roster and this head coach.

[reggie]

jus think if we had a team like that...why is it that places like ny, dallas colorado cant draw flys but can put a winning product on the field..wtf

[brad]

I think this is very debatable.

Agree - stability is only valid if it's the right person at the helm. If not, we can easily end up with another MoJo style mess to cleanup.

[ExiledRed]

The thing I don't get is.........

It may take an entire season to adjust to Winter's philosophy, but then.........

half these players won't be here next year.

In that case, won't you just be starting all over again ?

Oh shit.

Ive been trying to point this out for ages, but apparently its about filling the team with useless tits and maintaining the same kind of turnover, for a generation while a culture and philosophy is engrained into the 'youngers' so that fifteen years from now we're playing a standard system concurrent with the rest of the world. Everything you see is normal to the rebuilding process.

Also, were developing the spine of the team. Because apparently this team is spineless. But once it has a spine, and these new signings are going to be part of that, then we can look forward to training a bunch of new MLS players and european imports to 'gel' and 'learn the system' before we trade them away for draft picks, bench them over contract issues or have to give them back to their actual clubs.

[MartinUtd]

Once again for all those people that think THIS is Toronto FC. We we're without:

Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
Julian DeGuzman
Adrian Cann
Nana Attakora
Dicoy Williams
Elbekay Bouchiba
& our 2 new DP's (who have been paid for with the departure of DeRo/Stevanovic)

That's 9 players who could contribute more than the NASL/NCAA team we trotted out today. Do you still think there's nothing to look forward to?

[ExiledRed]

Im not going to let this performance tonight ruin the spark of hope that I got on Saturday.

Winter has a chance to redeem himself in the CL, and I think its obvious the playoffs are a lost cause.

NCC/CL has ruled this season so far and could yet save it. Even the quarter finals of the CL would be a victory in itself.

[MartinUtd]

Im not going to let this performance tonight ruin the spark of hope that I got on Saturday.

Winter has a chance to redeem himself in the CL, and I think its obvious the playoffs are a lost cause.

NCC/CL has ruled this season so far and could yet save it. Even the quarter finals of the CL would be a victory in itself.


That's more like it! Tbh I gave up on the playoffs a while ago. I recognize that is mathematically possible and that anything can happen in this league but I just feel that the excitement is going to come from the CONCACAF group stage. If we don't get past Real Esteli then I'll join the chicken little crowd too.

[Rudi]

For all the crap we gave Preki, it's striking to compare this game to the one we played in NY last August.

We were clearly outplayed then too, but we held our shape, and only lost 1-0. Like it or lump it, that was actually a system we were playing. We had chances in that game to steal a point.

We are not playing any system now, we are pretending to play 4-3-3, and we are just out of too many games.
Only to lose 4-1 to the same team, at BMO Field, a week later.

Let's not reminisce romantically about Preki-ball just because the team got the shit kicked out of them today.

[ExiledRed]

That's more like it! Tbh I gave up on the playoffs a while ago. I recognize that is mathematically possible and that anything can happen in this league but I just feel that the excitement is going to come from the CONCACAF group stage. If we don't get past Real Esteli then I'll join the chicken little crowd too.

Losing to the team that the impact put out in the same round, and effectively ending any chance of compensating for the scarcity of home games in the second half of the year, and giving the DP's something to do, would basically put an end to Winter's last chance yes.

[ensco]

Once again for all those people that think THIS is Toronto FC. We we're without:

Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
Julian DeGuzman
Adrian Cann
Nana Attakora
Dicoy Williams
Elbekay Bouchiba
& our 2 new DP's (who have been paid for with the departure of DeRo/Stevanovic)

That's 9 players who could contribute more than the NASL/NCAA team we trotted out today. Do you still think there's nothing to look forward to?

You have a point, especially at the back.

But it's not that compelling an argument. Other teams (LA, DCU) are able to play through major injury problems without losing games 5-0 and 6-2.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/mls-injury-report

[ensco]

Only to lose 4-1 to the same team, at BMO Field, a week later.

Let's not reminisce romantically about Preki-ball just because the team got the shit kicked out of them today.

I concede this point. We sucked last year too. No point arguing about degrees of bad suckitude.

[nickio]

Right after it was 2-0 I did not watch more even 1 minute from this game, and I came back to the forum well after game was finished.


To each his own, but I disagree with waking away simply because the team is loosing 2-0 and then analyzing the results and potential of this team.

I'm on the other side of the fence. I like watching this football- chances, posts, great runs, some combination passing. The current problems aren't that hard to fix- Get healthy, get some defenders, get the Strikers going- and we'll be competitive. I think TFC is on the brink of that. I strongly disagree with firing Winter.

[nickio]

Also a sweet body-check by the Canadian boy- Stinson. A bit of Canadian grit in there made me smile! Ye ye I know it's not hockey, but it's in our blood to be tough.

[Shakes McQueen]

I didn't want to give Winter the keys to the city last week, and I don't want to fire him tonight.

- Scott

[MartinUtd]

You have a point, especially at the back.

But it's not that compelling an argument. Other teams (LA, DCU) are able to play through major injury problems without losing games 5-0 and 6-2.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/mls-injury-report

I don't know enough about the league to know who's injured and of decent value beyond the recognizable names, but I did notice we have the longest report in the league. I think this could be the thinnest our roster has ever been with regards to preferable starters (that is, who's signed up on the payroll at the time and not who we consider to be worthy of a start).

[Whoop]

Positives... We are boosting ticket sales at other cities - increasing their support for local football!

Really? Red Bull Arena looked pretty empty tonight.

And they have a good team.

[Roogsy]

I don't know enough about the league to know who's injured and of decent value beyond the recognizable names, but I did notice we have the longest report in the league. I think this could be the thinnest our roster has ever been with regards to preferable starters (that is, who's signed up on the payroll at the time and not who we consider to be worthy of a start).


Here's a question I raised with Kurt Larson of the Sun...

The fact that we have so many injured players, does that normally not speak to poor fitness? Some of us may recall the heightened attention to fitness that came with Carver and how all of a sudden our injuries were lessened. How is it now that they have once again increased?

[ManUtd4ever]

Once again for all those people that think THIS is Toronto FC. We we're without:

Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
Julian DeGuzman
Adrian Cann
Nana Attakora
Dicoy Williams
Elbekay Bouchiba
& our 2 new DP's (who have been paid for with the departure of DeRo/Stevanovic)

That's 9 players who could contribute more than the NASL/NCAA team we trotted out today. Do you still think there's nothing to look forward to?

This is by far the most sensible post in this thread.

Yes, the club seemed to throw in the towel after the 3rd New York goal, and yes, Winter could have made tactical adjustments to avoid an embarassing scoreline, but at the end of the day, would it have really made a difference in the win/loss column, given the disparity in talent between the the two clubs on the pitch?

TFC has been decimated by injuries for several weeks now, and the B squad was also playing it's 3rd game in 7 days. At the very least, I'll cut them some slack after the huge victory on the weekend and judge the results starting July 20th.

[Yagbod]

Sorry if I missed it, but why didn't DeGuz play today?

[Roogsy]

At the very least, I'll cut them some slack after the huge victory on the weekend and judge the results starting July 20th.

My frustration comes in that that assumption is that Winter will turn into a good coach because we will have 2 good players coming in. When the truth is that his failings will still be there, they will just be masked by the exceptional play of players of better pedigree. But that's not the most efficient use of cap space nor of the team's available resources.

You don't put regular gas in a Ferrari my friend.

The greatest players in the world are still wasted if the coaching is poor.

[ManUtd4ever]

My frustration comes in that that assumption is that Winter will turn into a good coach because we will have 2 good players coming in.

You don't put regular gas in a Ferrari my friend.

The greatest players in the world are still wasted if the coaching is poor.

Right. So Winter was a master tactician and motivator with a depleted squad last week and now he's a clueless moron again.

Anyway, regarding the lineup, it's not just Frings and Koevermans, it's also the 7 starters that are out of the lineup. I don't care what anyone says, any MLS club would struggle with similar injury concerns. But don't let me ruin the party. Some people would prefer to just shit all over the organization yet again without any sense of objectivity. Enjoy.

Good night all.

[Roogsy]

Right. So Winter was a master tactician and motivator with a depleted squad last week and now he's a clueless moron again.

Anyway, regarding the lineup, it's not just Frings and Koevermans, it's also the 7 starters that are out of the lineup. I don't care what anyone says, any MLS club would struggle with similar injury concerns. But don't let me ruin the party. Some people would prefer to just shit all over the organization yet again without any sense of objectivity. Enjoy.

Good night all.

Struggle? Yes.

Lose 5-0. No.

A proper coach would see the deficiencies of his team and make adjustments. Winter did not. Stuck the ol'plan he did.

I feared that TFC winning the NCC would give Winter credibility he so definitely has not earned and low and behold that is exactly what has happened. Winter should be sending Vancouver a basket of whatever they want for shitting the bed and giving him breathing room because if they had shown up, you wouldn't be calling him a "master tactician". As someone classified it, it was the "Battle of the Brutals".

To me, the clueless part never left. Winning the NCC did not change my view of Winter one bit.

As for the motivator, most competent coaches would have capitalized on the confidence generated from the NCC win and kept the team running on all cylinders. They did not need a win tonight, not even a draw. Losing 1-0 would have been satisfactory if anything to maintain the player's confidence. What do you think a 5-0 loss does to their confidence?

[ensco]

Objectivity? Give me a break.

I bleed red, I acknowledge the impact of injuries, and I say there's no evidence that Winter has any idea what he's doing. I don't think my position is that of a manic hater.

[Whoop]

What is this talk about an African DP coming to MLS?

Speculation is that it might be a GK for NYRB but I wonder who?

Don't think it's Drogba like some have implied.

[Serb_Star]

Please for the love of god stop playing 4-3-3, its not working make an adjustment. When you're D is shit you should pack the midfield instead of leaving acres of space.

[NBS]

Meh, it wasn't too surprising.

I think people are reading way too much into the scoreline. Yes nobody wants to get embarrassed like that, but a tired, thin, and under-talented team, with a patchwork defense against the best offense in the league capitulated when they got down. It happens.

I would like to watch this team in the final 10 MLS matches and CCL play before making any real evaluations. That's pretty much how I've felt the whole season.

[Roogsy]

Meh, it wasn't too surprising.

I think people are reading way too much into the scoreline. Yes nobody wants to get embarrassed like that, but a tired, thin, and under-talented team, with a patchwork defense against the best offense in the league capitulated when they got down. It happens.

I would like to watch this team in the final 10 MLS matches and CCL play before making any real evaluations. That's pretty much how I've felt the whole season.

How about this for perspective.

NY played FC New York in the US Open Cup a few days ago and won 2-1. They're not even NASL. They're USL Pro.

They played the Fire before that, a team that is struggling as well and tied 1-1.

Their last win was against another poor team this year, New England and only beat them 2-1.

But somehow 5-0 is understandable?

I just can't see how it's even remotely acceptable.

[MartinUtd]

Here's a question I raised with Kurt Larson of the Sun...

The fact that we have so many injured players, does that normally not speak to poor fitness? Some of us may recall the heightened attention to fitness that came with Carver and how all of a sudden our injuries were lessened. How is it now that they have once again increased?

I always thought the Paul Winsper hype was really odd, regardless of how good he supposedly was. Maybe I'm naive if I think we're having a streak of bad luck with injuries but I'm not ready judge Winter's fitness regime on such contemporary events.

On a side note, here's a good post game article with some good Henry quotes about our DP's

http://www.nj.com/redbulls/index.ssf/2011/07/toronto_fc_draws_respect_from_red_bulls_after_cham pions_league_victory.html

[werewolf]

What is this talk about an African DP coming to MLS?

Speculation is that it might be a GK for NYRB but I wonder who?

Don't think it's Drogba like some have implied.

an African GK as a DP? That could be worse then Mista.

[Pachuco]

Meh, it wasn't too surprising.

I think people are reading way too much into the scoreline. Yes nobody wants to get embarrassed like that, but a tired, thin, and under-talented team, with a patchwork defense against the best offense in the league capitulated when they got down. It happens.

I would like to watch this team in the final 10 MLS matches and CCL play before making any real evaluations. That's pretty much how I've felt the whole season.

It happens, yes, apparantly though it continues to happen to us and nobody else. Everybody loses, nobody loses as bad as we do, that's a fact that can be backed up by stats.

[Rudi]

How about this for perspective.

NY played FC New York in the US Open Cup a few days ago and won 2-1. They're not even NASL. They're USL Pro.

They played the Fire before that, a team that is struggling as well and tied 1-1.

Their last win was against another poor team this year, New England and only beat them 2-1.

But somehow 5-0 is understandable?

I just can't see how it's even remotely acceptable.
What was the NY roster for each of those matches?

5-0 is never acceptable, but your attempt to lump in all of those games together as if they are somehow equal is clear as day, Roogs.

[MartinUtd]

John Rooney scored the winner for NYRB in that game.

[Rudi]

I always thought the Paul Winsper hype was really odd, regardless of how good he supposedly was. Maybe I'm naive if I think we're having a streak of bad luck with injuries but I'm not ready judge Winter's fitness regime on such contemporary events.

On a side note, here's a good post game article with some good Henry quotes about our DP's

http://www.nj.com/redbulls/index.ssf/2011/07/toronto_fc_draws_respect_from_red_bulls_after_cham pions_league_victory.html
-Cann got injured hitting a patch of bad turf at Cherry Beach.
-Williams did his knee in at the Gold Cup.
-Attakora injured in a game after a long layoff.
-JDG seems to be struggling with injuries relating back to last year. I saw him applying ice to his entire lower leg myself when I was covering the Gold Cup, so he played through it until it became unbearable.
-Gordon came to TFC injury prone.
-Santos... not sure what the original injury was, but he aggravated it reaching for that misplayed ball by Cannon on the weekend.
-Peterson... pulled/torn hammy.
-Tchani just came back from an ankle injury at the hands of Beckham.
-Bouchiba tore his knee in a preseason game.

Those seem to be the injuries (plus Nic Lindsay). Did I miss any?

Of those, Peterson, Santos and Gordon's could have been "preventable" depending on certain circumstances. Knee injuries are freak occurences that cannot be blamed on training, IMO.

[no1redsfan]

C'mon people, let's not be so harsh !

This team just won the Voageurs Cup.

At least give them an oppurtunity to rest on their laurels.

[Whoop]

an African GK as a DP? That could be worse then Mista.

It's all speculation.

Ives was hoping it was Vincent Enyeama as NYRB needs a new GK but he just signed with Lille.

[Pachuco]

Once again for all those people that think THIS is Toronto FC. We we're without:

Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
Julian DeGuzman
Adrian Cann
Nana Attakora
Dicoy Williams
Elbekay Bouchiba
& our 2 new DP's (who have been paid for with the departure of DeRo/Stevanovic)

That's 9 players who could contribute more than the NASL/NCAA team we trotted out today. Do you still think there's nothing to look forward to?

I think this is quite a bit of an exageration though. I mean, I agree we have injuries and that will take it's toll, but you are lumping in guys who haven't played a game with TFC and guys who were injured in preseason. So if we look at something a bit more realistic, in my mind it goes like this:

Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
Julian DeGuzman
Dicoy Williams

That's really the starters we were missing.

Nana would have been a nice backup to have. Then again, Winter wouldn't have played him because Harden is the man.

Bouchiba and the two new DPs cannot possibly be missed when they haven't played a single game with us. Stevanovic and Dero aren't on this team, so yes, TFC is TFC without them. Dero was traded for 2 players that were on the field today.

And let's not forget that they were missing Rafa. So in my opinion, this is closer to being TFC then you make it out to be.

[bman27]

A factor you also have to take into consideration is the fact that this was a red bulls side that has been critized for not putting away those easy games, so this was a team out to make a point tonight, they found the weakness and exploited it plain and simple

[TFC USA]

Don't worry guys. We're rebuilding. In year fucking five. But we're getting better! So let's not beat up on this team for being so so so so so terrible.

[Rudi]

John Rooney scored the winner for NYRB in that game.
Yeah, it seems as though Backe threw out the kids against FC New York. Hardly surprising.

NYRB have been dealing with a ton of injuries/absences of their own. Tonight's was the first game in six or seven weeks in which they've had almost their entire preferred starting XI out there (they were only missing Marquez).

Their poor form was mostly due to international duties (Marquez, DeRo before he was traded, Richards, Ream, Agudelo, etc.) plus key players like Rodgers were also out for extended periods of time.

Plus their keepers went bonkers for a few games.

They now have everyone back, and should theoretically be firing on all cylinders for the remainder of the season if they stay healthy and Sutton can keep the brainfarts to a minimum.

That doesn't excuse 5-0, but given what TFC threw out there versus a top choice NY squad, I wasn't entirely surprised that they handed our asses to us on a silver platter.

[MartinUtd]

I think this is quite a bit of an exageration though. I mean, I agree we have injuries and that will take it's toll, but you are lumping in guys who haven't played a game with TFC and guys who were injured in preseason. So if we look at something a bit more realistic, in my mind it goes like this:

Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
Julian DeGuzman
Dicoy Williams

That's really the starters we were missing.

Nana would have been a nice backup to have. Then again, Winter wouldn't have played him because Harden is the man.

Bouchiba and the two new DPs cannot possibly be missed when they haven't played a single game with us. Stevanovic and Dero aren't on this team, so yes, TFC is TFC without them. Dero was traded for 2 players that were on the field today.

And let's not forget that they were missing Rafa. So in my opinion, this is closer to being TFC then you make it out to be.

Considering the circumstances, I'd wager that Attakora would be getting games if he were healthy. The point of including Steva/DeRo because the represent a significant hit to the salary cap that we've turned over and don't have access to until July 15th. I'll admit Bouchiba is a stretch tho, I had inactive salary cap hit in mind again.

[ExiledRed]

My frustration comes in that that assumption is that Winter will turn into a good coach because we will have 2 good players coming in. When the truth is that his failings will still be there, they will just be masked by the exceptional play of players of better pedigree. But that's not the most efficient use of cap space nor of the team's available resources.

You don't put regular gas in a Ferrari my friend.

The greatest players in the world are still wasted if the coaching is poor.

The attitude of the new players will be telling.

We'll know after a few games if they have any faith in him or not.

[Shakes McQueen]

Yeah, it seems as though Backe threw out the kids against FC New York. Hardly surprising.

NYRB have been dealing with a ton of injuries/absences of their own. Tonight's was the first game in six or seven weeks in which they've had almost their entire preferred starting XI out there (they were only missing Marquez).

Their poor form was mostly due to international duties (Marquez, DeRo before he was traded, Richards, Ream, Agudelo, etc.) plus key players like Rodgers were also out for extended periods of time.

Plus their keepers went bonkers for a few games.

They now have everyone back, and should theoretically be firing on all cylinders for the remainder of the season if they stay healthy and Sutton can keep the brainfarts to a minimum.

That doesn't excuse 5-0, but given what TFC threw out there versus a top choice NY squad, I wasn't entirely surprised that they handed our asses to us on a silver platter.

I think you make a good point. My one huge disappointment in this game is that the boys essentially gave up after those two quick goals shredded their confidence.

This game didn't need to end 5-0. Winter shares some blame in it, for not making tactical adjustments after New York clearly did.

Then again, I can't imagine it would have changed the result of the game - maybe just the scoreline.

- Scott

[TFC USA]

C'mon people, let's not be so harsh !

This team just won the Voageurs Cup.

At least give them an oppurtunity to rest on their laurels.

Fuck that they're supposed to win it every year.

I wasn't expecting a win but this is the 3rd time we've embarrassed ourselves. 4 goals against an expansion side, 6 goals AT HOME to Philly, and now 5-0 to a New York team in a poor run of form.

[Roogsy]

What was the NY roster for each of those matches?

5-0 is never acceptable, but your attempt to lump in all of those games together as if they are somehow equal is clear as day, Roogs.

The usual apologies for this club. If we were to listen to that, you'd think nobody else has injuries. Nobody else has roster struggles. Nobody else has any sort of struggles they have to work through. Toronto gets all the bad luck. Toronto gets all the bad breaks. The results aren't on our shoulders, they fall on lady luck.

Are all these games equal? No. Did any of them have the identical rosters. No. Did these opposing teams play the New York Red Bulls? Yes. Were the rosters mostly similar? Yes. Did any other team get blown out 5-0? No.

There is just one simple question that undoes your argument Rudi. Has any team in MLS this year lost to NY by a score of 5-0? At any point? Has anyone even come close??? At what point do we stop blaming the stars and the convergence of everything bad on TFC that all of a sudden disappears when these teams go on to play other teams. How much do you want to bet the next team NY plays doesn't get blown out 5-0? Has anyone else allowed Philly to score 6 goals? So then why did we?

At some point, the excuses have to stop and the evidence has to be analyzed for what it is. NY is a good team, but we're not talking Manchester United vs. Derby. Parity in this league means that by it's own structure, most teams are similar to each other. They have similar resources. They have similar struggles. They have similar payrolls. They draw from the same pool of players. The defining difference between each team is management's ability to make the best decisions and the coach's abilities to get the most out of their players. On both fronts, TFC fails. End the excuses. End the rationalizations. End the apologies. At some point, hold the team accountable.

[Rudi]

I think you make a good point. My one huge disappointment in this game is that the boys essentially gave up after those two quick goals shredded their confidence.

This game didn't need to end 5-0. Winter shares some blame in it, for not making tactical adjustments after New York clearly did.

Then again, I can't imagine it would have changed the result of the game - maybe just the scoreline.

- Scott
Yeah, I agree that they gave up after those two goals by NY. Speaks to the inexperience and lack of leadership on the field tonight, really.

Contrast that to the fight they gave in LA, and the difference is night and day.

[nickio]

Winter is here to stay, so is 4-3-3. Players will be picked for the system and not the other way around. That's the way it's done with best of the clubs around the world. If you don't stick to the plan you will never know who the right players are. The point is, next year's roster can only be an improvement on this year as the 'inadequate' players are phased out.

Martina and Soolsma with the complement of the right players will be effective. They have the touch, the skills and the knowledge- they created chances tonight overshadowed by bad luck.

If they start adjusting and playing 4-5-1 (which this team is definitely not build for), we would likely have a 0-3 loss with TFC making absolutely no chances at the other end, the Snooze fest that was with Preki. It made me sick to my stomach watching 0-1 loss after loss where we would have 1 shot on goal the whole game.

[Shakes McQueen]

I say we just sell the franchise. Start unscrewing the seats at BMO, and let's part this baby out.

- Scott

[nickio]

The defining difference between each team is management's ability to make the best decisions and the coach's abilities to get the most out of their players. On both fronts, TFC fails. End the excuses. End the rationalizations. End the apologies. At some point, hold the team accountable.

The team is being held accountable- that's the easiest part. The question is what to do? No one knows the answer to that for sure. Whether some fans bring in facts to justify or not- every game compiles into the overall opinion.

Are they doing everything they can to improve and get better? I think so. They are avoiding the temptation of easy fixes and focusing on the real target. I respect that.

If there is ONE thing that we can take away from the last 5 years, is that firing the coaches has NOT worked!

What we haven't tried yet is keeping the same coach for any reasonable amount of time and let him work through it.

[Cristiano14]

Winter is here to stay, so is 4-3-3. Players will be picked for the system and not the other way around. That's the way it's done with best of the clubs around the world. If you don't stick to the plan you will never know who the right players are. The point is, next year's roster can only be an improvement on this year as the 'inadequate' players are phased out.

Martina and Soolsma with the complement of the right players will be effective. They have the touch, the skills and the knowledge- they created chances tonight overshadowed by bad luck.

If they start adjusting and playing 4-5-1 (which this team is definitely not build for), we would likely have a 0-3 loss with TFC making absolutely no chances at the other end, the Snooze fest that was with Preki. It made me sick to my stomach watching 0-1 loss after loss where we would have 1 shot on goal the whole game.

No offense, but what you said goes against fundamental knowledge of soccer and in fact all tactics. Only a completely ignorant and foolish coach would keep his team using the same formation against every team regardless of the situation. The best coaches in the world such as Mourinho, Ferguson and Villas-Boas change their formation and tactics depending on the game and the situation in order to maximize the chances of success. Manchester united has played 4-4-2, 4-5-1 and even the 4-6-0 strikerless formation in recent years depending on the match. and while mourinho normally plays a 4-3-3 he has played extremely defensive versions of it against teams like barcalona in the champions league and it is these tactics that have brought him and his team SUCESS.

Additionally, while many big clubs do buy and bring in players to fit their system (or the coaches system). But the system is usually designed around the players at hand, at least initially. a cookie cutter is not thrown at the squad and expected to fit it, It its far more effective and intelligent to design the system around the players to mazimize sucess, and when the appropriate players are brought in to slowly mold the players into what your ideal system is. Mourinho played a 4-3-3 at chelsea because it fit the team, but at Real he plays more of a modified 4-5-1 because it fits them. It is like expecting your donkey to be your guard dog, its never going to happen, so if you play to its strengths and use it to carry your things, your going to have much more success.

[nickio]

Obviously there are different variations and coaches approach each game differently with respect to position, but by and large the squad is built around the main formation(s).

Winter believed that If Toronto was to have any chance of winning they needed to attack from the get-go. And with a bit of luck that was almost going to work, after which they could've dropped back. After they were loosing 0-1, they tried to bring the momentum back by an attacking formation. I understand Winter's idea and that sounds to me more like a winner's ambition rather than a 0-6-4 approach where you Hope to walk away with a tie.

[Oldtimer]

The squad:

This is obviously our "B" squad. If you add it up by cap space, we had a very small portion of our team there.

These guys overall aren't good enough to be even bench strength on an MLS side.

The character of the squad:

The difference between the start and the end of the match showed it all. At least have some pride! It was terrible, just terrible. The score showed it.

The coaching:

Here we see a limitation in having an Ajax product running things. We are wedded to 4-3-3. I don't believe that Winter went to NY expecting to win, most likely he was playing for a draw. If he wanted a point, a tactical adjustment was necessary, (maybe a 4-5-1).

However, the Ajax system is very rigid.

It would be better if the team had at least 2 different formations that they could play. The tactical weakness of playing only one style could prevent our team from ever being a contender. As has been pointed out earlier, a great tactician like Sir Alex has his squad learn several different formations.

Of course, maybe Winter isn't really trying for points in what is a hopeless MLS season, but just trying to teach the Ajax system. In which case, keeping the 4-3-3 is the best way to do that. I'm not convinced that having only one system will work, unless you're Barcelona (which is impossible in a salary-capped league).

The opposition:

They look great. MLS Cup contenders for sure. They could give RSL a real run for the money.

[CSO_BBTB]

Wasn't able to watch the game but from the game in six the five goals conceded are for the most part clearly down to the pairing at centre half (plus Gargan ball watching on the first one). It's possible to get away with a right back paired with a league minimum quality player playing at less than 100% fitness against a team like Vancouver but bad things will tend to happen when the quality is there to ruthlessly exploit the minor miscues. Those were mainly coming from Harden but he may have been playing when he really shouldn't have been to try to help the team and if so it's wrong to point the finger of blame. Houston should be closer to the Vancouver scenario again so hopefully the team bounces back from this on the weekend.

[Batman]

The usual apologies for this club. If we were to listen to that, you'd think nobody else has injuries. Nobody else has roster struggles. Nobody else has any sort of struggles they have to work through. Toronto gets all the bad luck. Toronto gets all the bad breaks. The results aren't on our shoulders, they fall on lady luck.

Are all these games equal? No. Did any of them have the identical rosters. No. Did these opposing teams play the New York Red Bulls? Yes. Were the rosters mostly similar? Yes. Did any other team get blown out 5-0? No.

There is just one simple question that undoes your argument Rudi. Has any team in MLS this year lost to NY by a score of 5-0? At any point? Has anyone even come close??? At what point do we stop blaming the stars and the convergence of everything bad on TFC that all of a sudden disappears when these teams go on to play other teams. How much do you want to bet the next team NY plays doesn't get blown out 5-0? Has anyone else allowed Philly to score 6 goals? So then why did we?

At some point, the excuses have to stop and the evidence has to be analyzed for what it is. NY is a good team, but we're not talking Manchester United vs. Derby. Parity in this league means that by it's own structure, most teams are similar to each other. They have similar resources. They have similar struggles. They have similar payrolls. They draw from the same pool of players. The defining difference between each team is management's ability to make the best decisions and the coach's abilities to get the most out of their players. On both fronts, TFC fails. End the excuses. End the rationalizations. End the apologies. At some point, hold the team accountable.

I haven't agreed with you much lately, but that's a helluva good post.

[JamboAl]

Fuck that they're supposed to win it every year.

I wasn't expecting a win but this is the 3rd time we've embarrassed ourselves. 4 goals against an expansion side, 6 goals AT HOME to Philly, and now 5-0 to a New York team in a poor run of form.

now that is the silliest quote I've seen on this board...ever.

[profit89]

Get through Saturday's game, then 11 days for the injured to heal and the two new DPs to join.

My sentiments as well.

This result in the long run is a very good thing imo. We want teams who spend money on Talent/DPs to win and keep winning. It will show to the rest that you need to splash cash on players in order to compete. Only way the league will improve. Henry, Luke Rodgers, Teemo Taino, Jan Gunnar Solli. Fantastic players. Shows good players make a difference in this league.

It would be a sad state of affairs if Tfc, with the lineup they put out there, a bunch of kids and MLS 1.0 players like Gargan/Harden were to win.

It's better this way. In the long run.

[CSO_BBTB]

I haven't agreed with you much lately, but that's a helluva good post.

What exactly were you expecting to happen in this game given the injury crisis at centre back? For those posting in the pregame thread the discussion revolved around how that issue could be addressed with the general consensus being we were potentially screwed given a player of the quality of Henry was going to be involved.

[Oldtimer]

My sentiments as well.

This result in the long run is a very good thing imo. We want teams who spend money on Talent/DPs to win and keep winning. It will show to the rest that you need to splash cash on players in order to compete. Only way the league will improve. Henry, Luke Rodgers, Teemo Taino, Jan Gunnar Solli. Fantastic players. Shows good players make a difference in this league.

It would be a sad state of affairs if Tfc, with the lineup they put out there, a bunch of kids and MLS 1.0 players like Gargan/Harden were to win.

It's better this way. In the long run.

A very good point. We do want MLS to become one of the better leagues in the world, one in which a Harden wouldn't even make the bench.

[Azerban]

now that is the silliest quote I've seen on this board...ever.

no, it's true, we're unironically supposed to win the v's cup every year

at minimum

sorry

[mdc 77]

15 minutes in I was thinking how good we looked.

I couldn't even watch after 3-0

[canadian_bhoy]

Get through Saturday's game, then 11 days for the injured to heal and the two new DPs to join.

Exactly. We're only one point out of the playoffs with two DPs on the way one of which should be able to give us the punch up front that we need.

Plata was only good for 20 mins last night and needs to finish his chances, hopefully a new striker will take the pressure off him.

Get a grip folks, everytime we lose this board goes into meltdown. Back the team.

[123 elite]

Borman, Sturgis, Soolsma, Martina and Yourssowsky are not good enough.

To the guy that said Frings is unproven in the MLS and on a reitrement free ride, you obviously don't know Torsten Frings, he is all heart and plays 100% for 90 minutes he's not on any free ride and unproven in the MlS is kind of a joke for a great midfielder like Frings.



I know what Frings is like. My point was a general point about thinking this is going to fix anything. Too many people on here are making comments about how after July 15th things are going to be rosy because we have 2 new DPs. It may well become better but you can't expect it to be better based on reputation alone. Last night was a complete horror show. Forget systems, injuries, 4-3-3 etc... we could not complete a short pass. There is absolutely no excuse for 2 professional footballers 5 yards from each other to allow passes to be intercepted. Its nothing to do with any system. After half a season of Winter this is where we are at. Inserting 2 fabulously talented players into this could create a brand new set of problems for the team just as easily as it could fix them.

[Brooker]

Meh..... On to the next one....

[menefreghista]

Exactly. We're only one point out of the playoffs with two DPs on the way one of which should be able to give us the punch up front that we need.

Plata was only good for 20 mins last night and needs to finish his chances, hopefully a new striker will take the pressure off him.

Get a grip folks, everytime we lose this board goes into meltdown. Back the team.

I think you might want to heed your own advice, ie, get a grip.

TFC is 3 points out of a playoff spot, but the teams it is chasing have games in hand. Plus there are 6 teams between TFC and 10th place.

Again, by my estimations, TFC needs 25 points in 14 games to have a shot at the playoffs.

Anyways, I don't see the meltdown you speak of. Its more like apathy, with a handful of people rightfully calling out the shit they witness, and a handful of people still showing blind faith.

[brad]

I always thought the Paul Winsper hype was really odd, regardless of how good he supposedly was. Maybe I'm naive if I think we're having a streak of bad luck with injuries but I'm not ready judge Winter's fitness regime on such contemporary events.


Really need to break down the cause of injuries to say for sure (IE - is it lack of fitness work or did someone stomp on an ankle).

It might be a lack of fitness prep, or it might be bad luck. It's not uncommon for team with a good fitness staff to go through a period of injuries.

EDIT: see the injury breakdown was already done.

[Azerban]

We're only one point out of the playoffs

http://i.imgur.com/zTIwC.gif

[brad]

If there is ONE thing that we can take away from the last 5 years, is that firing the coaches has NOT worked!

What we haven't tried yet is keeping the same coach for any reasonable amount of time and let him work through it.

I really don't like this line of argument.

I do agree that successful teams need stability in both the coaching (and playing) staff, and that a revolving door on either is not the way to succeed.

My problem is that this only works if you have the right coach in place.

Do you think we would have been a better team today we'd kept MoJo coaching? We would be in our 5th year of stability now.

[maninb]

I watched til it was 2-0...WTF is Martina still playing for...the guy gets knocked off the ball like he was a 6 year old little boy...and we all know how poor Harden is....TFC -- PADDING GOAL STATS FOR OPPONENTS SINCE 2007.....pathetic....

[menefreghista]

I though Mo Johnston should have been fired by season 2. But I think if he were still running the team, he would have found a CB replacement by now.

[Batman]

What exactly were you expecting to happen in this game given the injury crisis at centre back? For those posting in the pregame thread the discussion revolved around how that issue could be addressed with the general consensus being we were potentially screwed given a player of the quality of Henry was going to be involved.

How it could be addressed, by one of the wealthiest teams in the league, is to take a bit less than 5 years to put together a quality side.

However, I agree...it was a little late to fix that problem last night.

[Oldtimer]

My problem is that this only works if you have the right coach in place.


How could you know that this early? Any coach would look bad at this point, even a world class one.

If we want to play an Ajax style, maybe he's the best we can get.

[colin.h]

in my opinion, the problem lies with the back line. with a stable and confident back 4, the ball transitions through the mid-field. when the mid-field has no confiedence in the back 4,the result is what we saw last night. btw, does anyone elses asshole pucker when you see Thiery Henry go 1 on 1 whith the mighty Dan Gargon?

[__wowza]

http://i.imgur.com/zTIwC.gif


this is by far the silliest thing i've seen on these boards.

[brad]

How could you know that this early? Any coach would look bad at this point, even a world class one.

Backe didn't at NY, but I don't really like to use that as an example as a sample size of one isn't really an indication if that was exceptional or the norm.

Anyway - I intentionally didn't comment about Winter in that post (and I'm not calling for his head yet). It's more the line of reasoning that stability will breed success. Winter could very easily leave us in a worse state that MoJo did if he is the wrong guy and we stick with him to see what happens.

There are IMHO more worrying signs than positive ones with Winter. They surround his player selections, lack of ability to motivate his team, and inability to adjust the shape of his team to adapt to the opposition to name a few.

[brad]

in my opinion, the problem lies with the back line. with a stable and confident back 4, the ball transitions through the mid-field. when the mid-field has no confiedence in the back 4,the result is what we saw last night. btw, does anyone elses asshole pucker when you see Thiery Henry go 1 on 1 whith the mighty Dan Gargon?

Back line is bad, but the midfield and forwards need to do a better job of keeping the ball to keep the pressure off them.

This system needs to be possession based for it to work, and that is a whole team issue. If we can't hold the ball we are leaving the back four out to dry.

[__wowza]

also, anyone have nam flashbacks last night?
reason: WE LOST TO NY 5-0 TWO YEARS AGO TO GET ELIMINATED FROM THE PLAYOFFS.

[MartinUtd]

How it could be addressed, by one of the wealthiest teams in the league, is to take a bit less than 5 years to put together a quality side.

However, I agree...it was a little late to fix that problem last night.

We might has well have been owned by Kraft for the first 3 and a half years. No DP until JDG opened up in a specular move aimed at saving Mo Johnstons job.

[__wowza]

sorry, sorry, last post. is there anyway the board can organize a two minute hate a la big brother?

http://www.thecrew.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/primary_image-620x350/image_nodes/2011/07/cunningham_DL.jpg

[spinx]

I wish I could say i was surprised but what can you expect playing basicly a B squad against the most firepower in the league.


the only thing thats keeping me going is that hopefully in two weeks time (barring more injuries) we will look more like this
---------------------Frei-----------------------
Eckersley---New Cb---Williams/Nana----Borman/Yourassowsky
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------De Guz-------------Tchani/Sturgis------------
----------------------Frings----------------------
-Soolsma---------Koevermans-------Plata

with both Santos and Gordon off the bench, instead of the crap we saw today

Soolsma should not start... he simply isn't good enough

[Roogsy]

Exactly. We're only one point out of the playoffs with two DPs on the way one of which should be able to give us the punch up front that we need.

Plata was only good for 20 mins last night and needs to finish his chances, hopefully a new striker will take the pressure off him.

Get a grip folks, everytime we lose this board goes into meltdown. Back the team.


And this post reinforces everything I think is wrong with how we support TFC.

TFC has learned that appeasement works instead of addressing fundamental needs.

I will flip it around on you and use your own "get a grip" rationalization. After winning the NCC, you should also "get a grip". We played 2 poor teams, neither of which was any good and winning the title doesn't give any indication of how good or bad this team is. Losing by 3+ goals 4 times this season in league play however does give a better indication of how poor we are.

These 2 new DPs aren't going to help us do dick all if a new backline isn't produced to keep the goals out of our net. You'd think this need would have been addressed by now. Instead we were nickel and diming our MVP last year who while nothing special, provided that which we now appreciate, stability and heart.

One more thing...I am tired of people saying that beging negative or complaining is somehow not "backing the team". You know what? I do back the team. I want better for this team and the fans than what we are getting, that's why I say the things I do. "Back the team" should not mean being a simple cheerleader of everything this team does, good or bad. It should mean caring. Caring enough not to allow further damage to the brand, to the fanbase and to the psyche of our players. If you don't think a 5-0 loss completely undoes whatever confidence our players had coming off the NCC win, you're smoking some serious shit.

[Alixir]

Red Bull Arena is a pretty nice place...I bet that place is rockin the one game a year they sell out.

[Roogsy]

Red Bull Arena is a pretty nice place...I bet that place is rockin the one game a year they sell out.


That was probably the LA Galaxy game and it was all around electric. The atmosphere and the game.

[Whoop]

Still don't understand why they still can't fill out that place? Or is everyone in New York waiting for the Cosmos?

Anyway, if TFC doesn't beat Real Esteli to advance to the group stages, I predict BMO will be pretty empty coming the fall months.

[Roogsy]

NY is a baseball town followed very closely by Football. Despite their size, soccer is so far down on the sports mentality of the fan that few pay attention, even the "traditional" soccer markets like the Latinos.

My entire family in NY for example, are all die-hard Yankees fans. And they're Latino! I have never heard anyone on the Spanish radio stations even mention the Red Bulls. I am sure they are working on it, but I can understand how difficult it would be. The Yankees own that city. And then you have huge Football and Basketball teams and all of a sudden, that massive population is less of a factor to get fans and the ability to capture anyone's attention through all that noise is the real factor in whether this team succeeds or not.

[trane]

A very good point. We do want MLS to become one of the better leagues in the world, one in which a Harden wouldn't even make the bench.

Harden is not a CB in any league anywere not even in a pick up game in a Toronto park, his instincts, positioning, physicality and approach is all wrong. If I would have to summarize the basic attributes of a CB it would be good positioning, reading the game, controled physicality, and decisivness. Harden does not excell at any of these, and is indecisive, he seems to be continuosly cought in poor positions and is unaware of what is happening in the play, and is not physical when it counts.

[brad]

Still don't understand why they still can't fill out that place? Or is everyone in New York waiting for the Cosmos?


I've heard it has to do with the stadium being in New Jersey and that people from NY don't support teams in Jersey. No idea if that is true or not.

[Roogsy]

It's 10 minutes from midtown Manhattan.

Several NY teams play in stadiums that are outside of the "core".

Personally I doubt that's the reason.

[TFCwestcan]

I don't know enough about the league to know who's injured and of decent value beyond the recognizable names, but I did notice we have the longest report in the league. I think this could be the thinnest our roster has ever been with regards to preferable starters (that is, who's signed up on the payroll at the time and not who we consider to be worthy of a start).

I noticed that as well, i was wondering about the status of Dicoy Williams and it looks like he is gone for a long time (surgery recovery). While I only saw the later half on the game it was obvious that we do have problems at the back. Harden is trying and he has had a couple of decent games but he seems to not be able to maintain a decent level for long. I hope that we are able to get help at the back because to make any run we are going to need this plus some luck at this point.

Ecks at one point pissed off just stormed up the field to try and make some thing happen. He has heart.

[Whoop]

NY is a baseball town followed very closely by Football. Despite their size, soccer is so far down on the sports mentality of the fan that few pay attention, even the "traditional" soccer markets like the Latinos.

My entire family in NY for example, are all die-hard Yankees fans. And they're Latino! I have never heard anyone on the Spanish radio stations even mention the Red Bulls. I am sure they are working on it, but I can understand how difficult it would be. The Yankees own that city. And then you have huge Football and Basketball teams and all of a sudden, that massive population is less of a factor to get fans and the ability to capture anyone's attention through all that noise is the real factor in whether this team succeeds or not.

I know but it's 20k once a week in the summer months. I mean I don't think there was even 10k in the building.

Before the excuse was that the team was shit and the stadium is shit but now they have a great stadium and a good team.

Mind you, I think once you lose that crowd, it's tough to get it back.

TFC will soon find that out.

What's that old adage, once you lose a customer you have to work twice as hard to get them back?

[Roogsy]

I know but it's 20k once a week in the summer months. I mean I don't think there was even 10k in the building.

Before the excuse was that the team was shit and the stadium is shit but now they have a great stadium and a good team.

Mind you, I think once you lose that crowd, it's tough to get it back.

TFC will soon find that out.

What's that old adage, once you lose a customer you have to work twice as hard to get them back?

I pretty much agree with all of this.

Especially the part about losing a customer. I don't think TFC have gotten that memo though...

[trane]

Harden is not a CB in any league anywere not even in a pick up game in a Toronto park, his instincts, positioning, physicality and approach is all wrong. If I would have to summarize the basic attributes of a CB it would be good positioning, reading the game, controled physicality, and decisivness. Harden does not excell at any of these, and is indecisive, he seems to be continuosly cought in poor positions and is unaware of what is happening in the play, and is not physical when it counts.


I will also add that when you are playing a two CB system, if one of them is poor as Harden then it affects the entire backline, because it creates problems and space right in the midle of your line, right in front of goal. A good coach should find a way to address this. You are better off taking that CB out, and pulling the two FB in and playing two DMs to protect them for example. His insistence on playing Harden is puzzling, it is my biggest question of winter as a coach. [now Harden may be decente in some other position but he should never, ever play CB again].

[ag futbol]

What's that old adage, once you lose a customer you have to work twice as hard to get them back?
That, and I think something along the lines of "It's much easier to keep the customers you have happy than win new ones".

[CSO_BBTB]

How it could be addressed, by one of the wealthiest teams in the league, is to take a bit less than 5 years to put together a quality side.

However, I agree...it was a little late to fix that problem last night.

So in other words you can't comment intelligently about what Aron Winter could have done to counteract an attack featuring Thierry Henry when he has his top three centre backs out injured and the number four player on that particular depth chart was probably playing through injury. With only an 18 to 20 man senior roster available and a lack of strength in depth on rosters due to the salary cap that perfect storm scenario where injuries are concerned would cause major problems for any MLS team regardless of what their form has been like over the last five seasons.

[Roogsy]

On a different note, Nick Labrocca scored last night for Chivas.

Could not have happened to a nicer guy. Well done Nicky!

[trane]

^ In that case you do not play a standard 4-3-3, but a formation that packs the mid with mids that can mark and tackle. If you know that your backline and particularly your CBs are your weakest link you protect them, not leave them exposed to be demolished.

[Roogsy]

So in other words you can't comment intelligently about what Aron Winter could have done to counteract an attack featuring Thierry Henry when he has his top three centre backs out injured and the number four player on that particular depth chart was probably playing through injury. With only an 18 to 20 man senior roster available and a lack of strength in depth on rosters due to the salary cap that perfect storm scenario where injuries are concerned would cause major problems for any MLS team regardless of what their form has been like over the last five seasons.

Somebody should have told him all this before the game. Maybe he doesn't play the 4-3-3 and tries to gut out a draw instead of going toe-to-toe against a stacked team?


^ In that case you do not play a standard 4-3-3, but a formation that packs the mid with mids that can mark and tackle. If you know that your backline and particularly your CBs are your weakest link you protect them, not leave them exposed to be demolished.

Damn, you posted this before I did. LOL!

[Fort York Redcoat]

And this post reinforces everything I think is wrong with how we support TFC.

TFC has learned that appeasement works instead of addressing fundamental needs.

I will flip it around on you and use your own "get a grip" rationalization. After winning the NCC, you should also "get a grip". We played 2 poor teams, neither of which was any good and winning the title doesn't give any indication of how good or bad this team is. Losing by 3+ goals 4 times this season in league play however does give a better indication of how poor we are.

These 2 new DPs aren't going to help us do dick all if a new backline isn't produced to keep the goals out of our net. You'd think this need would have been addressed by now. Instead we were nickel and diming our MVP last year who while nothing special, provided that which we now appreciate, stability and heart.

One more thing...I am tired of people saying that beging negative or complaining is somehow not "backing the team". You know what? I do back the team. I want better for this team and the fans than what we are getting, that's why I say the things I do. "Back the team" should not mean being a simple cheerleader of everything this team does, good or bad. It should mean caring. Caring enough not to allow further damage to the brand, to the fanbase and to the psyche of our players. If you don't think a 5-0 loss completely undoes whatever confidence our players had coming off the NCC win, you're smoking some serious shit.

Who is cheering for this result? I'm pretty sure people are looking to see improvement. Like how 2 DP's are going to improve the team. Will it improve enough? That's to be seen but it will improve by a margin.

Will that be enough for every one of us to be happy about raised ticket prices? Fuck no. I am not appeased by 2 DP's. I have hope for improvement.

[CSO_BBTB]

...His insistence on playing Harden is puzzling, it is my biggest question of winter as a coach [now Harden may be decente in some other position but he should never, ever play CB again].

Did you notice him hobble off against the Whitecaps? Judging Harden based on his performance last night is a joke. Truth is Harden has been surprisingly decent since the 2-6 game against the Union and that has been a major factor in making it possible to earn some points and win the NCC.

The options against RBNY were (i) play a less than 100% Harden, (ii) risk damaging Henry's development by having his namesick make him look and feel extremely foolish, (iii) try Tchani again after a less than convincing stint there in the NCC final, and (iv) experiment with Nathan Sturgis as a centre half despite the fact he is on the short side for that role. All of the available options were risky and liable to backfire in a big way. Sometimes as with LAG away a result can still be obtained despite what looks on paper like a weak pairing at centre back but other times things will come unglued in these circumstances.

Part of genuinely supporting an MLS team is accepting that there will be times when the team's lack of depth will be exposed because of the way MLS teams are forced to put their rosters together. Would be good if some kind of trade could be made to provide a short term fix but it would be a mistake to do something kneejerk that hurts the team long term because other teams will be looking to drive a hard bargain. The storm will pass and better times will arrive. Even this weekend Houston is less daunting in terms of their creative edge up front and it may be possible to grind out some kind of result even with the current depleted lineup.

[Roogsy]

Who is cheering for this result?

I never said anyone was cheering for the result. Please don't mischaracterize my position.

[ensco]

What exactly were you expecting to happen in this game given the injury crisis at centre back? For those posting in the pregame thread the discussion revolved around how that issue could be addressed with the general consensus being we were potentially screwed given a player of the quality of Henry was going to be involved.

I made this point as well in the pregame thread, but I felt that the breakdowns were all over the pitch last night, not just down the middle. After the first 15 minutes, we couldn't win a ball, or stay with a man, anywhere.

With respect to the gaping holes at CB, something was missing last night. Some sort of esprit de corps that says "I've got to save these poor bastards, who are alone out there against Henry and Rodgers".

I thought they'd lose, but given the good vibes from Saturday, thought they'd go down swinging, which I was ready to claim as a moral victory.

Something is badly wrong. Is it Winter, the system, the players, all of the above...?

[trane]

Did you notice him hobble off against the Whitecaps? Judging Harden based on his performance last night is a joke. Truth is Harden has been surprisingly decent since the 2-6 game against the Union and that has been a major factor in making it possible to earn some points and win the NCC.

The options against RBNY were (i) play a less than 100% Harden, (ii) risk damaging Henry's development by having his namesick make him look and feel extremely foolish, (iii) try Tchani again after a less than convincing stint there in the NCC final, and (iv) experiment with Nathan Sturgis as a centre half despite the fact he is on the short side for that role. All of the available options were risky and liable to backfire in a big way. Sometimes as with LAG away a result can still be obtained despite what looks on paper like a weak pairing at centre back but other times things will come unglued in these circumstances.

Part of genuinely supporting an MLS team is accepting that there will be times when the team's lack of depth will be exposed because of the way MLS teams are forced to put their rosters together. Would be good if some kind of trade could be made to provide a short term fix but it would be a mistake to do something kneejerk that hurts the team long term because other teams will be looking to drive a hard bargain. The storm will pass and better times will arrive. Even this weekend Houston is less daunting in terms of their creative edge up front and it may be possible to grind out some kind of result even with the current depleted lineup.

I am not judging Harden on one game, he has not shown any of the characterisitc of a good CB, ever. Is part of supporting an MLS team giving oneself a footy lobotomy? It sure seems to be. Again any leageue any level if your back line is weak, and you are unlikely to win by outscoring your opponent, you pack the mid, protect your backline, and grind out a victory. It is ture in Englan, Italy, Venezuela and it should be true in North America. Again if Harden is hurt you take him out. Having him it served no purpose.

[CSO_BBTB]

Somebody should have told him all this before the game. Maybe he doesn't play the 4-3-3 and tries to gut out a draw instead of going toe-to-toe against a stacked team?

After all the whining on here about "Prekiball" last season and the "We're not going to take it" stuff that helped to prompt a radical change in direction you've made your bed now lie in it!

[Roogsy]

After all the whining on here about "Prekiball" last season and the "We're not going to take it" stuff that helped to prompt a radical change in direction you've made your bed now lie in it!

That is an awful simplification of what happened last year. If this is how you summarize the crisis of last year, you're awfully mistaken.

It's also an incredible exaggeration of a fan's preference for more attractive soccer. There is a difference in having a season-long strategy of putting 11 players behind the centre-line versus having a game-by-game adjustment whether to have a defensive strategy against a single superior opponent, on the road, especially when the troops are temporarily reduced.

But by all means, hyperbolize away!

[Whoop]

On a different note, Nick Labrocca scored last night for Chivas.

Could not have happened to a nicer guy. Well done Nicky!

While Labrocca has 5 goals, I'd still take Gordon...... when he's healthy.

[CSO_BBTB]

I am not judging Harden on one game, he has not shown any of the characterisitc of a good CB, ever.

What are you expecting to get from the number four guy on the depth chart at centre back making the league minimum of $42k? The second coming of Franco Baresi? Yes, he's not that good and so what? He's supposed to be emergency cover rather than a regular starter. If he can do an adequate job most of the time when called upon that's as much as can be reasonably expected.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I never said anyone was cheering for the result. Please don't mischaracterize my position.




"Back the team" should not mean being a simple cheerleader of everything this team does, good or bad.

It was a bad result. I'm not cheering it. No one is. And you were saying people think that's the way to support. I disagree. If you have been mischaracterized feel free to elucidate because the above is the overall impression.

[Roogsy]

It was a bad result. I'm not cheering it. No one is. And you were saying people think that's the way to support. I disagree. If you have been mischaracterized feel free to elucidate because the above is the overall impression.


Wow. Simply wow. When you you dissect so specifically to the point where you actually break-up a word to change the entire meaning of the statement, it's really doing something special.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Wow. Simply wow. When you you dissect so specifically to the point where you actually break-up a word to change the entire meaning of the statement, it's really doing something special.

Sooooo... you don't want to clarify?

[trane]

What are you expecting to get from the number four guy on the depth chart at centre back making the league minimum of $42k? The second coming of Franco Baresi? Yes, he's not that good and so what? He's supposed to be emergency cover rather than a regular starter. If he can do an adequate job most of the time when called upon that's as much as can be reasonably expected.

Dude, I am not saying he is not a good CB, I am saying he is no CB. Every position has its own requirments, and for a player to be even considered for playing a position he must have them. He does not. Therefore he is not a CB, and shuold not be played at that position. To put it in prespective Plata is a great little player, but he is also not a CB, and would never be played in that position, as skilled as he is.

[Roogsy]

Sooooo... you don't want to clarify?

Not if you're going to twist words and take things out of context. No thanks.

[habstfc]

TFC sucked last night we all know.

Missing at least 5 regular starters, what else did we expect, maybe not a 5-0 loss but a loss nonetheless.

I don't think the tacticts were necessarily the problem, it was ball watching on at least 3 of the goals.

I know frei has generally been stellar his whole time here at TFC but the guy needs to sit. He looks deflated. Maybe it will get the team going like it does in hockey.

I'm not excusing the teams play but 5-0 is very flattering to NYRB, It' not like they came out and dominated, TFC certainly had their chances, it's just that NY scored on virtually every good chance they got. If Soolsma or Plata scored early on instead of shooting directly at Sutton, together with hitting the post twice we might be having a totally different conversation this morning.

In alot of ways losing this way is better than losing 1-0 or 2-1. TFC just didn' have it last night.

[Roogsy]

Dude, I am not saying he is not a good CB, I am saying he is no CB. Every position has its own requirments, and for a player to be even considered for playing a position he must have them. He does not. Therefore he is not a CB, and shuold not be played at that position. To put it in prespective Plata is a great little player, but he is also not a CB, and would never be played in that position, as skilled as he is.

I do understand the point of "what other choice did he have"? After all, they put Ecks in the middle as well.

Frankly, I put less blame on Harden than I do on Winter. It's not his fault he was put in that position. He is a minimum-wage earner just trying to do his best of what was asked of him.

[billyfly]

Has anyone made a "Running of the (red) Bulls" joke yet?

They certainly did last night and TFC was gored.

[trane]

^
Roogsy,

I do not blame Harden either, my issue is also with Winter that insist on playing him as a CB.

While I still support Winter, but he has to achieve something in the CL.

[habstfc]

NY is a baseball town followed very closely by Football. Despite their size, soccer is so far down on the sports mentality of the fan that few pay attention, even the "traditional" soccer markets like the Latinos.

My entire family in NY for example, are all die-hard Yankees fans. And they're Latino! I have never heard anyone on the Spanish radio stations even mention the Red Bulls. I am sure they are working on it, but I can understand how difficult it would be. The Yankees own that city. And then you have huge Football and Basketball teams and all of a sudden, that massive population is less of a factor to get fans and the ability to capture anyone's attention through all that noise is the real factor in whether this team succeeds or not.

I have been saying all along that nobody cares about soccer in N.Y.C. The NYRB proves it, they have a good team, have maybe one of the top 5 goal scoring striker's perhaps of all time and still draw flies. Unless you're married to a spice girl nobody cares, and they want to put a 2nd team there?

[CSO_BBTB]

They are mainly a northern New Jersey team in terms of support. A second team based somewhere like Queens would be tapping into a market that RBNY are not really catering to right now.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I never said anyone was cheering for the result. Please don't mischaracterize my position.


Sooooo... you don't want to clarify?


Not if you're going to twist words and take things out of context. No thanks.

:noidea:

Ooooookaaaay. So I guess I can't subscribe to the negative support your touting.

[ManUtd4ever]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am not the least bit surprised by some of the typical derogatory comments that have been posted in the aftermath of an embarassing defeat.

However, if as I suspect, TFC starts to round into form over the next several weeks with a healthier roster and Frings and Koevermans in the lineup, I look forward to the sentiments of those who have already declared the new management regime an unequivocal failure, irrespective of the roster situation.

[DangerRed]

Ballwatching and being out of position was largely to blame last night, as was the fact that New York managed to entirely bypass our midfield.

I remember listening to Twellman basically spin in his chair as a single pass beat six, yes SIX TFC players. I cannot count how many times I watched Gargan or Harden lazily watch the ball bounce around them.

Oh, and don't get me started on the goal NYRB scored after Harden got the ball in the box and essentially passed it to a NYRB player who scored easily.

Yes, we were hurting from injuries, but Ty Harden and Dan Gargan have no business starting in this league.

[CSO_BBTB]

...Every position has its own requirments, and for a player to be even considered for playing a position he must have them. He does not....

You've ignored what I wrote about making the league minimum and number four on the depth chart. If Ty Harden were making the same money as Adrian Cann and was expected to start regularly there would be a serious issue (Garcia fell into this category last season). He's not. He's one of the not so good "domestic" depth players who get shoehorned in just under the salary cap to make up the numbers in training drills and hold the fort if one of the starters gets injured, called up to a national team or suspended. Pointing out he isn't at the usual quality expected in MLS kind of misses the point and is simply a case of stating the obvious. A more pertinent question would be whether there are better options available who would not take up an international roster spot and would be willing to sign for $42k? My impression is that as with Gargan he's about the standard you can reasonably expect to attract right now in MLS roster depth terms.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am not the least bit surprised by some of the typical derogatory comments that have been posted in the aftermath of an embarassing defeat.

However, if as I suspect, TFC starts to round into form over the next several weeks with a healthier roster and Frings and Koevermans in the lineup, I look forward to the sentiments of those who have already declared the new management regime an unequivocal failure, irrespective of the roster situation.

Well said on all counts.:thumbsup:

[Dave67]

Ballwatching and being out of position was largely to blame last night, as was the fact that New York managed to entirely bypass our midfield.

I remember listening to Twellman basically spin in his chair as a single pass beat six, yes SIX TFC players. I cannot count how many times I watched Gargan or Harden lazily watch the ball bounce around them.

Oh, and don't get me started on the goal NYRB scored after Harden got the ball in the box and essentially passed it to a NYRB player who scored easily.

Yes, we were hurting from injuries, but Ty Harden and Dan Gargan have no business starting in this league.

I really enjoy it when Twellman does commentary. He actually adds quite a bit of value to a broadcast.

[Whoop]

I also enjoyed Twellman's commentary.

[trane]

You've ignored what I wrote about making the league minimum and number four on the depth chart. If Ty Harden were making the same money as Adrian Cann and was expected to start regularly there would be a serious issue (Garcia fell into this category last season). He's not. He's one of the not so good "domestic" depth players who get shoehorned in just under the salary cap to make up the numbers in training drills and hold the fort if one of the starters gets injured, called up to a national team or suspended. Pointing out he isn't at the usual quality expected in MLS kind of misses the point and is simply a case of stating the obvious. A more pertinent question would be whether there are better options available who would not take up an international roster spot and would be willing to sign for $42k? My impression is that as with Gargan he's about the standard you can reasonably expect to attract right now in MLS roster depth terms.

What us league minimum have to do with Harden not being a CB? If you want depth at CB, find a CB, if nothing else go out and get an USL CB, get someone who knows to play the position. I am sure that there is CBs in the US and Canada who know how the play the position they may be shit in relative terms, but at least they can fill the role on short terms basis, as you have stated.

[CSO_BBTB]

Are you for real? Harden is a centre back. Just not a very good one in MLS terms. He has also occasionally played at left back but isn't really a viable option in that role. Can you name someone from the NASL or USL Pro that you think is better and who you think would sign for the same money?

[trane]

^ Harden may call himslef a CB, but he has no clue how to play the position. Hence he shuold not play the position.

Yesterday, for example, he got his foot on a ball that was comming into the box, he got his foot on the ball just enough to slow it down, and allowed the attacking player to get onto it. ANY CB anywere, would have either made sure he got his foot on it well enought to clear it, if not to stop it, and get control of it, or let it run, and place himself between the ball and the attacker, and even if he tried to clear it, but did not do it, then he should have run to it, to get control and/or get control of the ball, instead he just backed off and stood still in space. Even in that option he failed as if he wanted to back off he shuold have back off further to protect the net or shot block. What did he do, he stopped the ball for the attacker and then stood out of the way. I am sorry not CB anywere does that.

[CSO_BBTB]

So you were wasting my time with silly posturing in other words. I'll reiterate my question. Can you name someone from the NASL or USL Pro that you think is better and who you think would sign for the same money? If you can't you are not really in a position to second guess people like Mariner and Winter on having Harden around.

[trane]

^ Hahahahahhahhaha. You are funny.

My job is not to find CBs for TFC, it is Mariner's and Winter's and they have not found one in Harden.

[Rudi]

The usual apologies for this club. If we were to listen to that, you'd think nobody else has injuries. Nobody else has roster struggles. Nobody else has any sort of struggles they have to work through. Toronto gets all the bad luck. Toronto gets all the bad breaks. The results aren't on our shoulders, they fall on lady luck.

Are all these games equal? No. Did any of them have the identical rosters. No. Did these opposing teams play the New York Red Bulls? Yes. Were the rosters mostly similar? Yes. Did any other team get blown out 5-0? No.

There is just one simple question that undoes your argument Rudi. Has any team in MLS this year lost to NY by a score of 5-0? At any point? Has anyone even come close??? At what point do we stop blaming the stars and the convergence of everything bad on TFC that all of a sudden disappears when these teams go on to play other teams. How much do you want to bet the next team NY plays doesn't get blown out 5-0? Has anyone else allowed Philly to score 6 goals? So then why did we?

At some point, the excuses have to stop and the evidence has to be analyzed for what it is. NY is a good team, but we're not talking Manchester United vs. Derby. Parity in this league means that by it's own structure, most teams are similar to each other. They have similar resources. They have similar struggles. They have similar payrolls. They draw from the same pool of players. The defining difference between each team is management's ability to make the best decisions and the coach's abilities to get the most out of their players. On both fronts, TFC fails. End the excuses. End the rationalizations. End the apologies. At some point, hold the team accountable.
Ok Roogs, I'll bite.

"Hold the team accountable" is your go-to line whenever you feel like arguing the same point from a million different angles.

How do YOU hold the team accountable? (I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious).

[Roogsy]

I really enjoy it when Twellman does commentary. He actually adds quite a bit of value to a broadcast.


I do too. Very honest. Very refreshing. Sometimes even a little funny.

[Beach_Red]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am not the least bit surprised by some of the typical derogatory comments that have been posted in the aftermath of an embarassing defeat.

However, if as I suspect, TFC starts to round into form over the next several weeks with a healthier roster and Frings and Koevermans in the lineup, I look forward to the sentiments of those who have already declared the new management regime an unequivocal failure, irrespective of the roster situation.


Let's hope the team "rounds into form," as you say because these embarassing defeats are getting old and make it feel like the team is a lot further than a couple players away from being competitive.

It just seems like there are some interim steps between embarassing losses and competitiveness that we should be seeing by now. Even with the two new DPs the team will still have injury problems and all the other problems that people talk about after losses.

If TFC was hanging in games longer and losing by one or two goals to better teams then a couple of players would make a huge difference. If our goal is to be at that pont - the tough one or two goal loss - by the end of this year then people might be justified in thinking management have set their sights too low. That's where Preki had the team last year, close losses and it wasn't good enough. Now it feels like it's our goal.

[phonzo]

Ok Roogs, I'll bite.

"Hold the team accountable" is your go-to line whenever you feel like arguing the same point from a million different angles.

How do YOU hold the team accountable? (I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious).

sell every ticket you have for each game and don't bother supporting :rolleyes:

[Whoop]

This is what I've asked in the past.

I know we're all frustrated, but short of not going to games, what other ways are there to hold the team accountable?

Protests? Letter writing campaign? Complaining on the board?

[Roogsy]

sell every ticket you have for each game and don't bother supporting :rolleyes:


Excuse me? Do you mind not answering for me? Especially on things you don't know anything about?

[phonzo]

Excuse me? Do you mind not answering for me? Especially on things you don't know anything about?

well you have never given an answer in other threads so i'm extrapolating.

[Roogsy]

What other threads? What are you talking about?

Extrapolating? You mean assuming. Tell me Phonz. How many 5 month old babies do you have? How many business trips do you have to go on? How many widowed mother-in-laws do you take care of?

Answer me that and THEN tell me that having to sell my tickets is not supporting.


Thank you by the way. Thank you for getting me involved in another dick-measuring "I am a better supporter than you" argument. Yes...you are there for every game Phonz. Good for you. I guess you really are a better supporter than everyone else who isn't. I bow down to you sir...

[phonzo]

ok so its not selling tickets then give us something Roogsy. How do we hold the team accountable it's that simple. I'm not going to go hunting in threads but I've read quite a few of your posts that either read hold them accountable or stop being blind sheep etc. (if your first response is omg show me proof I'm not bothering anymore).

So the question is how do we as a group do it knowing that the group itself is divided on whether we just accept this year was a write off and worry about next year or we start bitching and moaning for year number two and just get ourselves some lip service.

[Rudi]

I'm honestly not interested in any "dick-measuring" or "I'm a better supporter than you" type debate. That's not why I asked Roogsy what I did.

He's a passionate guy, who speaks very eloquently (although he and I frequently disagree). I'm genuinely seeking his answer to "holding the team accountable," since that phrase seems very abstract and not at all practical in the way I've seen it used (IMO).

[Whoop]

Hey life happens. Nothing you can do about that.

But my question comes back to - short of not going to games - how else can you hold the team accountable?

I think that was the question.

[Fort York Redcoat]

^Everybody :chillpill:

This got started when you turned discussion towards yourself, Roogs, and accusations of being too negative.

Phonzo let's not make this too personal.

As Whoop says, life can get in the way.

[Heathen]

The complaining on this thread isn't because we lost, it's because we lost 5-0. Honestly does anyone believe there'd be as much dissent if we'd lost 2-0, 3-1? I wasn't expecting to get much from the game but being blown out regardless of roster, injuries etc is never acceptable.

[phonzo]

I never implied better support just want to put that out there. My only point was I'd really like to hear him tell us how to hold the club accountable instead of just saying it everywhere. Honestly I don't know how so if someone has an idea I'd like to hear it.

[Brooker]

we lost, fuck it! what can you do? calm down.

[Roogsy]

ok so its not selling tickets then give us something Roogsy. How do we hold the team accountable it's that simple. I'm not going to go hunting in threads but I've read quite a few of your posts that either read hold them accountable or stop being blind sheep etc. (if your first response is omg show me proof I'm not bothering anymore).

So the question is how do we as a group do it knowing that the group itself is divided on whether we just accept this year was a write off and worry about next year or we start bitching and moaning for year number two and just get ourselves some lip service.


Give you something Phonz? What the fuck do I owe you? Nothing. You fucking call me out because you think you're a better supporter than I am? Fuck that. I owe you nothing. I have lived and died for this team from before you even knew about it. Then you take my personal situation and blast it out in public so that it makes you look better?

I guess despite everything I have to go through just to even watch a TFC game, as long as I am positive and not negative, then it would fit me into your nice little mold of "great supporter". No thanks.

Give me a break. I am out. Go measure someone elses dick.

[sashavukelich]

hahaha grown men fighting on computers make me laugh.

[habstfc]

I never implied better support just want to put that out there. My only point was I'd really like to hear him tell us how to hold the club accountable instead of just saying it everywhere. Honestly I don't know how so if someone has an idea I'd like to hear it.

It's not our job or duty to hold the team accountable, it's the player's themselves that have to do that. I'm pretty sure after any loss, especially a blowout, when the team returns to that dressing room and they look at each other acroos the room they know what they did wrong and what they have to do to correct things.

With Frings, Koevermans, JDG, Santos, Gordon, Williams, Nana all healthy and in the lineup I think we will be okay.

[DichioTFC]

LOLLLL the last few posts on this thread have been more entertaining than last night's game itself.

[Fort York Redcoat]

hahaha grown men fighting on computers make me laugh.

Now you made me laugh.

Thank you.

[Roogsy]

I'm honestly not interested in any "dick-measuring" or "I'm a better supporter than you" type debate. That's not why I asked Roogsy what I did.

He's a passionate guy, who speaks very eloquently (although he and I frequently disagree). I'm genuinely seeking his answer to "holding the team accountable," since that phrase seems very abstract and not at all practical in the way I've seen it used (IMO).


Sorry to get off-track Rudi.

I have answered this question before. And there are things I do that I would prefer not to mention publicly. The public stuff I have mentioned before is things like cancelling tickets, refusing to buy merchandise this year and not supporting extra-curricular events like their foundation anymore.

Suffice to say, I am active in pressuring this team to do better. Very active. Too active my wife would say.

[Whoop]

It's not our job or duty to hold the team accountable, it's the player's themselves that have to do that. I'm pretty sure after any loss, especially a blowout, when the team returns to that dressing room and they look at each other acroos the room they know what they did wrong and what they have to do to correct things.

With Frings, Koevermans, JDG, Santos, Gordon, Williams, Nana all healthy and in the lineup I think we will be okay.

You would think so - and while it probably happens to a small degree - I get the impression there's no one in that locker room holding their teammates accountable.

Like someone suggested last night, that's what happens when you have a team with no personality, no soul, no leadership.

[Azerban]

LOLLLL the last few posts on this thread have been more entertaining than last night's game itself.

so was my last bowel movement, though

a low bar, to be sure

[Azerban]

refusing to buy merchandise this year and not supporting extra-curricular events like their foundation anymore.


i was doing this stuff before the team was shit

(just kidding, the team has always been shit)

[trane]

^ Hahahahhahhahah. Funny, sad, and too fucking true.

[Detroit_TFC]

From Twitter:

Tony_Tchani Unbelievable what's going on!!!

I don't really know what this is in reference to, so I'll just assume he is talking about this thread. Or it could be about Murdoch shutting down News of The World. So hard to say.

[phonzo]

Wait I asked if selling tickets was the answer and you aired your personal shit not me roogsy. I didn't even know it just you sold each ticket this year. I asked you to tell us how to be accountable that's it. I'm not measuring dicks don't really care to or who is a better supporter. Each person does it their own way and as long as they do I could care less.

[Roogsy]

Wait I asked if selling tickets was the answer and you aired your personal shit not me roogsy. I didn't even know it just you sold each ticket this year. I asked you to tell us how to be accountable that's it. I'm not measuring dicks don't really care to or who is a better supporter. Each person does it their own way and as long as they do I could care less.

Bullshit. You inserted a snide remark after a question that was not even directed at you while revealing what a better supporter you consider yourself than anyone else who feels they have to sell their tickets. It doesn't matter if it's me that has to sell their tickets or John Smith in 116, why someone sells their ticket does not equal "bad support" and it certainly is none of your business.

[Beach_Red]

You would think so - and while it probably happens to a small degree - I get the impression there's no one in that locker room holding their teammates accountable.

Like someone suggested last night, that's what happens when you have a team with no personality, no soul, no leadership.


It doesn't seem too surprising that the team has no personality or leadership. They've all pretty much been told they're just placeholders until the real team that is able to play the system gets here. There are some mid-level MLS players who could probably get better results playing a more "MLS-style" but that's not what the team wants so those guys just look bad game after game. But so what if they lose a bunch of games until that happens? No one in the organization seems too bothered or worried.

And some of those guys will get traded to other teams where they'll fit in better and won't stand out as weaknesses so much.

In previous years TFC wasted the off season and didn't get its team together until the first few weeks of the season - now it seems like everything until July 15th is preseason. The good news is this is MLS and they could still make the playoffs and even go on a CCL run.

But they will have to make some attitude adjustments which may be even tougher than tactical adjustments.

[DichioTFC]

Still don't understand why they still can't fill out that place? Or is everyone in New York waiting for the Cosmos?


Partially yes, a lot of people are waiting for the Cosmos, but also there are a lot of problems with NYRB the way it currently is. The stadium is beautiful but it is designed very poorly (expansion is not possible, and the tight concourses will be packed when the stadium is at full capacity), parking is atrocious, there is total gridlock even 90 minutes before the match, its at the end of the subway line (which is too far for most NYers who have most amenities close by), and the owners of the land immediately in front of the arena have spiked the purchase price (Red Bull thought it could be used for parking right away, but the owners want to build condos and shopping malls, which is kinda ridiculous considering the size of Harrison, NJ). Also marketing to casual fans and the latino communities are non-existent.

The city of Harrison is also mad at the team because they were tricked into believing that the stadium and the team would bring millions in revenue so they fronted most of the bill for the stadium. Now Harrison is in a recession that rivals Detroit, where police officers are being laid off en masse and the municipal budget has serious problems.

Like you inferred, the Cosmos will come back, its just a matter of when. They literally have everything in place except a stadium (will be in Queens, next to Citi Field) and players. The administration, academy, ownership and everything else is already established http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Cosmos_%282010%29. New Yorkers that support Cosmos but go to Red Bull matches sometimes refuse to chant any chant that have Red Bull in the chant (there are also problems that the latinos in the group wont chant unless its in Spanish and the gringos try to make all chants in English).

They have a clusterfuck of problems that make us look fine by comparison. But then again, what team / SG doesn't have its issues?

[Roogsy]

It doesn't seem too surprising that the team has no personality or leadership. They've all pretty much been told they're just placeholders until the real team that is able to play the system gets here. There are some mid-level MLS players who could probably get better results playing a more "MLS-style" but that's not what the team wants so those guys just look bad game after game. But so what if they lose a bunch of games until that happens? No one in the organization seems too bothered or worried.

And some of those guys will get traded to other teams where they'll fit in better and won't stand out as weaknesses so much.

In previous years TFC wasted the off season and didn't get its team together until the first few weeks of the season - now it seems like everything until July 15th is preseason. The good news is this is MLS and they could still make the playoffs and even go on a CCL run.

But they will have to make some attitude adjustments which may be even tougher than tactical adjustments.

I think this post is very key to what is currently wrong with the team.

What confidence can the players have when they've heard pretty much from everywhere that they're not good enough and many if not most will be moved out at some point? How do you get a player to play his heart out for you under these circumstances?

[Azerban]

would you support a team named after an energy drink

why not fucking magicJack FC

[CSO_BBTB]

hahaha grown men fighting on computers make me laugh.

Maybe we need a coach who displays a similar level of passion to that during team training? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMHIItTSgMg

{probably best not to provide a translation}

[Roogsy]

It's not our job or duty to hold the team accountable, it's the player's themselves that have to do that.

I have to disagree.

How does a 40k player who may play his guts out hold a DP who just shit the bed accountable?

How does a player playing for a new contract hold his coach who made a tactically stupid decision accountable? Or a GM who isn't bringing in the right players?

Players are nothing more than short-term employees. Most of them are eyeing the next opportunity and don't want to screw up the current ones.

There is only one group that is immune to any consequence. The consumer. The ones dolling out the money. They are the ones that hold everyone accountable and when they don't, the lunatics run the asylum. It's how it works in every industry, sports included.

[DichioTFC]

would you support a team named after an energy drink

why not fucking magicJack FC

Sidenote: I love my MagicJack. I strongly encourage it especially if you or a loved one is going to a long distance location but has high speed internet access.

http://excerptz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/magic_jack.jpg

[menefreghista]

Like you inferred, the Cosmos will come back, its just a matter of when.


The Cosmos have no ownership. That's the main thing holding them back.

[Nodoubtguy]

Seriously guys??

this thread is a fucking :picard:

[boozilla]

I get the impression there's no one in that locker room holding their teammates accountable.

Couldn't see much talking on the pitch either. When Frei gave up yelling at the back line, you knew it was over.

[Azerban]

http://i.imgur.com/25yGX.gif


nooo my toboggan



come back dog








come back

[habstfc]

Partially yes, a lot of people are waiting for the Cosmos, but also there are a lot of problems with NYRB the way it currently is. The stadium is beautiful but it is designed very poorly (expansion is not possible, and the tight concourses will be packed when the stadium is at full capacity), parking is atrocious, there is total gridlock even 90 minutes before the match, its at the end of the subway line (which is too far for most NYers who have most amenities close by), and the owners of the land immediately in front of the arena have spiked the purchase price (Red Bull thought it could be used for parking right away, but the owners want to build condos and shopping malls, which is kinda ridiculous considering the size of Harrison, NJ). Also marketing to casual fans and the latino communities are non-existent.

The city of Harrison is also mad at the team because they were tricked into believing that the stadium and the team would bring millions in revenue so they fronted most of the bill for the stadium. Now Harrison is in a recession that rivals Detroit, where police officers are being laid off en masse and the municipal budget has serious problems.

Like you inferred, the Cosmos will come back, its just a matter of when. They literally have everything in place except a stadium (will be in Queens, next to Citi Field) and players. The administration, academy, ownership and everything else is already established http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Cosmos_%282010%29. New Yorkers that support Cosmos but go to Red Bull matches sometimes refuse to chant any chant that have Red Bull in the chant (there are also problems that the latinos in the group wont chant unless its in Spanish and the gringos try to make all chants in English).

They have a clusterfuck of problems that make us look fine by comparison. But then again, what team / SG doesn't have its issues?

Ultimately though people just don't care. People dont seem to mind going to new jersey to see the jets or giants play? Or taking the subway from manhattan to the bronx to see the Yankees play. They do that because they care. Land is at a premium in NYC, even in queens. It doesn't make sense from any standpoint (especially a business one) to build a second 150-200 million dollar soccer stadium in NY for about 25 events a year at maximum, when people don't go to red bulls games.

[DichioTFC]

The Cosmos have no ownership. That's the main thing holding them back.

You're right. They have an "owner" but they're still looking for partners to help with equity financing.

It seems like that's the last step before launch. I get the feeling they would be up and running right now if it werent for the recession and Madoff. I think they'll be in the MLS by 2013.

[bgnewf]

True supporters do not call other true supporters out. We all support the club in our on ways and with our own means within the context of trying to live our respective lives outside of TFC.

pissing contests are juvenile and lower the level of discourse.

[MartinUtd]

I have to disagree.

How does a 40k player who may play his guts out hold a DP who just shit the bed accountable?

How does a player playing for a new contract hold his coach who made a tactically stupid decision accountable? Or a GM who isn't bringing in the right players?

They grow some fucking balls and speak up. Just like in the real world you can't be afraid of hurting the feelings of more senior employees if they're not doing their jobs.

[Whoop]

Ultimately though people just don't care. People dont seem to mind going to new jersey to see the jets or giants play? Or taking the subway from manhattan to the bronx to see the Yankees play. They do that because they care. Land is at a premium in NYC, even in queens. It doesn't make sense from any standpoint (especially a business one) to build a second 150-200 million dollar soccer stadium in NY for about 25 events a year at maximum, when people don't go to red bulls games.

I think that's it.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcReOGBDTe4Y3RwbZ2jHHzVD-XNrL090B9wKtaqSrObCMmAZDZ22SA&t=1

[Detroit_TFC]

would you support a team named after an energy drink

why not fucking magicJack FC

You mean this magicJack FC?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagicJack_(WPS)

The owner of magicJack bought the Washington DC team and moved it to Florida. He is a first class lunatic and asshole, I will spare you the details as for why. Unfortunately if the league takes the team away, they league will fold. Awful, awful stuff.

I digress, back to the post-game recriminations and vitrol.

[Azerban]

You mean this magicJack FC?


yes, that one

tell the story it's better than people selling their tickets to feed starving babies or no true scotsman fallacies or whatever else is going on in this thread

[menefreghista]

I'm surprised Frank D'Angelo hasn't put a bid in for OTPP's MLSE shares.

We could be FC Cheetah Power Surge.