Winter Approval Rating - June 2011

[__wowza]

I'd like to think that Winter signed our latest DP's knowing that this thread was coming in the next couple of days, but who am i kidding? We're currently sitting 6th in the east and 14th overall, up one place and one respectively. Ending the month on a high note, how do you feel Winter has performed so far?

Just some guidelines:


Its how you feel at the moment, not a final assessment. Like a marathon, this is just a snapshot of our support at this point in time. A low approval rating does not rate him as an overall failure, just like a high approval rating does not mean he's Sir Alex Ferguson.
Whatever factors or metrics your feel are most important to you in the coaching position, use those to guide you.

For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in June:



T/T/T/L/L/W: 6 points out of a possible 18



Toronto FC v Sporting KC
June 04: Tie 0 - 0

LA Galaxy vs Toronto FC
June 11: Tie 2 - 2

NE Revolution vs Toronto FC
June 15: Tie 0 - 0

Toronto FC v Seattle Sounders
June 18: Loss 0 - 1

Real Salt Lake vs Toronto FC
June 25: Loss 3 - 1

Toronto FC vs Vancouver WFC
June 29: Win 1 - 0


MAY THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28251 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28251)
APRIL THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=27878 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=27878)

[__wowza]

this month is the last month that there's going to be a third option. if you don't know how you feel about the man half way into the season near the end of the transfer window, you've really gotta sit down and decipher how you got outt've bed with your decision making skills.

[Wull]

I went with yes. He's stuck to his vision and he's slowly but surely bringing in players he thinks can fit the system. Not happy about the Nana situation though

[jabbronies]

I said I'd wait till the transfer window. I'm more to the yes side than the no.

Thing I liked about Winters interview from last night was his answer to the question as to whether the new signings and the win tonight could be seen as a new beginning for the team. His answer was basically no, it's not a new beginning, but a continuation of what he already started back in the start of the season.

Tells me he had a vision at the start of the season and he is continuing with that vision. It's not about band-aid solutions, but about long term building.

My interest in this transfer window is not only who he brings in, but who he lets go.

[Darlofletch]

the question asks about head coach, which I'm not entirely convinced about. i'm on the fence really, but i voted yes. my opinion of his gm/technical director work definitely went up though.

[P-NUTZ]

he's struggled as a coach a little IMO, but i met him two weeks ago and had a brief chat and must say he's a passionate, class act who really wants to win and turn this thing around. a super guy. and with these DP signings i have to say he's really made a more dramatic impression coming into this tuff situation.

im all in - hopefully as a pure coach he'll get better with practice and performance from his players. i really believe he is giving it all he has and trust him and his goals.

[Pachuco]

I think it's impossible to approve at this point. I don't think just because he has a longer term vision that it automatically means his vision will end up succeding or that it works. There is only one thing I know right now, and that is statistically this is the worst team we have ever had. To be worse then Mo on his first year, is pretty much unaccetable. And therefore I can't possibly approve.

Having said that, I don't want him gone at all, I believe he can turn this around even though he hasn't shown he can. As a coach though, he hasn't shown that his system works, or that it gets through to the players, he's also had games where I feel he played a role in not getting a satisfactory result.

As for signing two new DPs, when they actually have an impact I'll comment on that. No way to know right now if this was the right move.

[Dreadlocks]

As a coach I do not approve. Some of his player decisions were bad imo.

As a manager, you can't ask for anything more than a guy who sticks to his original plan and keeps to his word about player signings. At the presser he said that he wants to and will bring in a North American central defender. I have no reason to believe he's talking out of his ass - based on his previous track record.

Overall, I'm happy with Winter.

[scooter]

today is a great day in tfc history
i think we will remember this canada day present for years to come

THE FRONT OFFICE MADE A PROMISE AND KEPT IT -------WHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOT

[DangerRed]

I approve of Winter's performance given that he tends to stick to what he says and do what he says he will do.

However, the team's performance has been abominable and certainly i cannot approve of that. 6 of 18 pts in June.

So you have to ask yourself, is a manager's performance hinged on what he says and does, or on how the team performs under his leadership.

If that's the question, then Winter has failed thus far.

Koov and Frings should help, but I'm far from convinced at this stage that these dudes will be the saviors of TFC. I simply have nothing to base that upon.

With that said, De Guz is now out of excuses. His rumoured complaint that he was surrounded by shit, which made him play like shit, is now completely out the window. You have world-class teammates now. Play better or get the fuck out.

[Pookie]

We've had a fairly thin system through June due to injuries.

The record is one measure. Looking at it another way, with a depleted line up, we played 6 games and TFC managed to take points in 4 of them.

[Davenport]

Not sure why he gets such a landslide approval. He's signed 2 players who are past their best days. Yes, they will add experience and they both used to be very good, but will it translate into results......don't know.
People were coming in their pants with some signings Johnston made and look what happened there.
This team has got a long way to go before it's anything like good.

[kaos197O]

Not sure why he gets such a landslide approval. He's signed 2 players who are past their best days. Yes, they will add experience and they both used to be very good, but will it translate into results......don't know.
People were coming in their pants with some signings Johnston made and look what happened there.
This team has got a long way to go before it's anything like good.
1 of those signings isn't his at all.

[Davenport]

1 of those signings isn't his at all.
True.
He has to make a couple of solid defensive signings. Without them we're fooked.

[Roogsy]

Not sure why he gets such a landslide approval. He's signed 2 players who are past their best days. Yes, they will add experience and they both used to be very good, but will it translate into results......don't know.
People were coming in their pants with some signings Johnston made and look what happened there.
This team has got a long way to go before it's anything like good.

When this poll went up I knew it would be over 70% based on last night's player announcement alone. Without the player announcement, this poll probably still sits at 50/50. Which goes to show you what a marketing coup it was to sign these players.

Frankly, I see this as a moot point anyways. Winter isn't going to be day-to-day coach anymore so this will likely be the last poll that directly speaks to his coaching ability, which I have held since day 1 are non-existant. Let's hope his "culture-building" abilities are better.

[kaos197O]

I voted NO for the record!

[Davenport]

When this poll went up I knew it would be over 70% based on last night's player announcement alone. Without the player announcement, this poll probably still sits at 50/50. Which goes to show you what a marketing coup it was to sign these players.

Frankly, I see this as a moot point anyways. Winter isn't going to be day-to-day coach anymore so this will likely be the last poll that directly speaks to his coaching ability, which I have held since day 1 are non-existant. Let's hope his "culture-building" abilities are better.
Of course...knee-jerk reaction etc. and they are 2 solid signings...only time will tell if they work out.
Is De-Klerk taking over as coach ?

[__wowza]

When this poll went up I knew it would be over 70% based on last night's player announcement alone. Without the player announcement, this poll probably still sits at 50/50. Which goes to show you what a marketing coup it was to sign these players.

i dont think that's true, on the heels of last months landslide loss to philly, people still voted predominately yes in favour of the job that was being done.

[Roogsy]

i dont think that's true, on the heels of last months landslide loss to philly, people still voted predominately yes in favour of the job that was being done.

Why isn't it true? The last poll on Winter gave him an approval rating under 50%, not over so I disagree that people voted "predominantly yes in favour of the job" he was doing after Philly. What would have bumped up his approval rating given that our record has actually gotten worse? Other than the signings of course.

[ManUtd4ever]

When this poll went up I knew it would be over 70% based on last night's player announcement alone. Without the player announcement, this poll probably still sits at 50/50. Which goes to show you what a marketing coup it was to sign these players.

Frankly, I see this as a moot point anyways. Winter isn't going to be day-to-day coach anymore so this will likely be the last poll that directly speaks to his coaching ability, which I have held since day 1 are non-existant. Let's hope his "culture-building" abilities are better.

I thought Winter clarified that he was retaining his existing role as Technical Director and Coach? Last night it appeared that way on the sidelines...

[brad]

I voted no. Winter explicitly stated playoffs were a target this season, and the results this month aren't good enough.

Signing the two DP's is not enough for me to change my opinion. I need to see them make a difference on the pitch first.

He does get positive marks from me for changing to more direct style in LA

[prizby]

Real Salt Lake vs Toronto FC
June 25: Tie 3 - 1

thought I'd point out

[J .]

TFC is on pace to be one of the worst teams in MLS history.

I think you know how I voted.

[Klinsmann]

I only have 2 things to say about Vinter:

"He's doing it well"
"He's doing a good job with the youngers"

[P-NUTZ]

he's struggled as a coach a little IMO, but i met him two weeks ago and had a brief chat and must say he's a passionate, class act who really wants to win and turn this thing around. a super guy. and with these DP signings i have to say he's really made a more dramatic impression coming into this tuff situation.

im all in - hopefully as a pure coach he'll get better with practice and performance from his players. i really believe he is giving it all he has and trust him and his goals.


cool, i'm responding to my own post! I think i am giddily influenced by these last two signings and happily pressed the 'yes' whereas i felt more "on the fence" originally. i am basing this on my belief of what might happen...dangerous i know.
:drinking::drinking::drinking::drinking::drinking:

[Super]

Personally I'm not very pleased with Winter, but turning the ship around that is TFC is not an easy task. Now that we have 2 new players, hopefully Winter will be better able to play his favourite formation - and then who knows what can happen. I still want to keep him and carry the same squad into next season. I'm sick of starting over from scratch. Regardless of how this season ends, I think we should give Winter another try next season.

[ManUtd4ever]

I only have 2 things to say about Vinter:

"He's doing it well"
"He's doing a good job with the youngers"

LOL at your avatar! I can't say I blame Winter for staring...:D

[__wowza]

Why isn't it true? The last poll on Winter gave him an approval rating under 50%, not over so I disagree that people voted "predominantly yes in favour of the job" he was doing after Philly. What would have bumped up his approval rating given that our record has actually gotten worse? Other than the signings of course.

under 50% with the third option of "on the fence" because a lot of people were commenting that he didn't have enough time at the helm for them to judge. i believe he would've rated higher if that option was out. as for his approval..

maybe people have given him the benefit of the doubt because despite a plethora of injuries this month, our record has improved?

maybe people see the signings as him building a team and not staging a marketing coup?

maybe people feel that he's starting to understand the team and league a bit better, and that the transfer window will mark us an entirely different team in the second half of the season?

all valid reasons, but i'd like to think we aren't so fickle that we see yesterdays signings as a 70% spike in his approval.


thought I'd point out

it was a 3-1 tie, prizby. gawwwwwwwwwwd! fixed it. thanks for pointing it out, i copy and paste from the older threads so i must've missed it.

[Roogsy]

all valid reasons, but i'd like to think we aren't so fickle that we see yesterdays signings as a 70% spike in his approval.

Why wouldn't this be the case when the same 3 options are basically available again and there is such a difference in the results for the 3 options?

[Oldtimer]

Regardless of how this season ends, I think we should give Winter another try next season.

^ This.

[__wowza]

Why wouldn't this be the case when the same 3 options are basically available again and there is such a difference in the results for the 3 options?

the third option this time around is different from last months. you have a lot of people who refrained from saying yes or no because they hadn't seen enough of him to make an accurate judgment. this time around people are choosing to wait until they see how he handles the market after a relatively quiet off season, so maybe after 3 months people have started to come to their conclusion.

it doesn't necessarily mean that he's won everyone over, and votes are showing that there's still a few people thinking "okay, two signings, let's see if he can carry the momentum into the transfer market and complete the team". or again, it could be because we've gotten better results, because we've made two new signings that aren't being seen as unnecessary to the on field product, etc.

[Whoop]

Could be worse, could be New England.

As Ives Galacrep points out today - now that Perovic and Stolica have been decline contract options - aside from Feilhaber, who fell in their lap, which was the last quality signing by New England that required some legwork?

I know New England is cheap but couldn't they find someone?

Or was it Mariner's fault? Or is it Nicol's fault?

[Roogsy]

the third option this time around is different from last months. you have a lot of people who refrained from saying yes or no because they hadn't seen enough of him to make an accurate judgment. this time around people are choosing to wait until they see how he handles the market after a relatively quiet off season, so maybe after 3 months people have started to come to their conclusion.

it doesn't necessarily mean that he's won everyone over, and votes are showing that there's still a few people thinking "okay, two signings, let's see if he can carry the momentum into the transfer market and complete the team". or again, it could be because we've gotten better results, because we've made two new signings that aren't being seen as unnecessary to the on field product, etc.


Well we will have to agree to disagree. Because if you are saying that these are different options than the last poll, then the poll loses all comparative value. But I don't see it that way. I think people see this poll exactly the same, I know I did. And that is 3 options to the question, do you approve? And I think fundamentally people see:

Yes
No
Not sure

If that's the case (which I think it is) then there is a marked increase in approval despite overall lacklustre results. Only two things can influence people to this degree, either the signings or the win last night and I believe these to be the most influential reasons for the shift in approval, and in my opinion I'd slant towards the signings as being the single biggest factor. It would have to be. There isn't a case in the actual coaching front that would influence a shift in results to this degree.

[Shakes McQueen]

I sort of agree with Roogsy. I've been a consistent "Yes" vote so far this year, and I can't help but laugh at the huge jump in approval for this months poll, no doubt based on these two signings.

That said, the third poll option is essentially "I'm waiting to see what he does in the transfer window", and these are essentially transfer window signings, so I don't dismiss the idea that some people may be reaching a real conclusion.

It's sort of why I think these monthly approval polls are rubbish to begin with. Generally speaking, they don't represent long term thinking at all. They are more of a cse study of the month-to-month emotional health of the Red Patch Boys, haha.

I still tentatively approve of the job Winter is doing. I think the signings of Frings and Koevermans were good moves, and I've maintained all season that I'm taking a longer view of this new management group - irrespective of week ot week results this season, to a degree.

- Scott

[J .]

Ill repeat, on pace to be one of the worst teams in MLS.... ever... and he is doing a good job?

Where is the logic or facts to support these arguments? He signs two players who havent played a second for us? Do people even watch the games?

We had 35% of possession last game, he says we are supposed to be a possession team... We have the worst attacking record, we are supposed to be an attacking side... TFC is nothing that he said it would be six months in.

Up to now this has been horrible, all people do is yak about how bad he is doing, but then support him. The kool-aid must be delicious.

[habstfc]

Aren't the 2 signings legit to the job he is doing? Isn't he part of that process or is it simply the teams record for his approval rating?

[Whoop]

After 19 games last season.

7W - 7L - 5D - 26PTS - 21GF - 21GA

After 19 games this season.

3W - 7L - 9D - 18PTS - 17GF - 29GA


The biggest problem this year really has been the back end. Has TFC ever really had a strong back end or a stud CB? However, is that a case of the talent available or the failure of the coaching staff to tailor a system to prevent the team from leaking goals.

But also where those draws at home are killing the team, especially the ones against a 10 man Columbus team, the 2-2 draw against Chicago after being up 2-0.

Take it for what's it worth.

[106-12]

it is very hard to do it now. Defence nana , cann , dicoy, Medfeild de guzman , petterson, and then allan gordon all injured and the departure of Dero he can't be blamed for, nor what players he had to start his job with. leave this for next year .I liked what he said about what he expect from the DP players

[Yohan]

The biggest problem this year really has been the back end. Has TFC ever really had a strong back end or a stud CB? However, is that a case of the talent available or the failure of the coaching staff to tailor a system to prevent the team from leaking goals.

But also where those draws at home are killing the team, especially the ones against a 10 man Columbus team, the 2-2 draw against Chicago after being up 2-0.

Take it for what's it worth.
sign that DP CB! ;)

[Shakes McQueen]

Ill repeat, on pace to be one of the worst teams in MLS.... ever... and he is doing a good job?

Where is the logic or facts to support these arguments? He signs two players who havent played a second for us? Do people even watch the games?

We had 35% of possession last game, he says we are supposed to be a possession team... We have the worst attacking record, we are supposed to be an attacking side... TFC is nothing that he said it would be six months in.

Up to now this has been horrible, all people do is yak about how bad he is doing, but then support him. The kool-aid must be delicious.

Perhaps many people are taking a slightly longer view of the club's prospects, and trying to read the tea leaves in the various moves the new management are making.

Personally, I expected the club to take a step back this season on the pitch, at least until Winter was able to really put his stamp on the roster.

It has nothing to do with "drinking the kool-aid", and I'm getting tired of the incapability of some to voice a dissenting opinion without sticking in a little flamebait somewhere.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

After 19 games last season.

7W - 7L - 5D - 26PTS - 21GF - 21GA

After 19 games this season.

3W - 7L - 9D - 18PTS - 17GF - 29GA


The biggest problem this year really has been the back end. Has TFC ever really had a strong back end or a stud CB? However, is that a case of the talent available or the failure of the coaching staff to tailor a system to prevent the team from leaking goals.

But also where those draws at home are killing the team, especially the ones against a 10 man Columbus team, the 2-2 draw against Chicago after being up 2-0.

Take it for what's it worth.

A CB should definitely still be on our priority list. At the top.

- Scott

[TFCin110]

Perhaps many people are taking a slightly longer view of the club's prospects, and trying to read the tea leaves in the various moves the new management are making.

Personally, I expected the club to take a step back this season on the pitch, at least until Winter was able to really put his stamp on the roster.

It has nothing to do with "drinking the kool-aid", and I'm getting tired of the incapability of some to voice a dissenting opinion without sticking in a little flamebait somewhere.

- Scott

WOW....I could have not said it better and I was just about to post something similar. People are likely assessing Winter in relation to the implementation of a new system to players that aren't talented enough to play it. Yes he brought in some of his own players but are roster was virtually non-existent and it was more a case of filling out our team.

It's easy to look at our record and say Winter is terrible. But for once I would like people to incorporate the other factors and look long term instead of being focused solely on this season.

[Roogsy]

I know I personally have often asked what these "other factors" are so I too can share in the hope. As far as I can tell, all Winter brings is his reputation as a player. He has shown neither tactical genius nor inspirational qualities. On the development side I haven't seen anything yet either but I admit that sort of thing takes longer. Obviously I am missing something but I'd really like to know what it is.

[TFCin110]

I know I personally have often asked what these "other factors" are so I too can share in the hope. As far as I can tell, all Winter brings is his reputation as a player. He has shown neither tactical genius nor inspirational qualities. On the development side I haven't seen anything yet either but I admit that sort of thing takes longer. Obviously I am missing something but I'd really like to know what it is.

I think its more so just that the development takes time. In my opinion, 6 months is not enough time to clean up the mess left 5 years of rot.

[Roogsy]

So if it takes time surely there is evidence of progress that makes people vote "yes I approve"? Thats all I am asking for because believe me, its not fun being the negative guy on the board but I'm not about to fall into the same trap as before with this team. So before i jump on the bandwagon, I'd like to see some proof or have someone point it out to me if I've missed it.

[DichioTFC]

Voted yes.

Maybe option sucks. Always has, always will. There are so many shades of gray in every opinion, the idea of an opinion polls is to force people to consider how they truly feel. If someone is "not sure" or is waiting for some BS date, they can abstain from the poll entirely.

I never made a maybe option for the Preki polls and I took heat for it at the time, but it was the right thing to do. For the love of all that is Dutch, no more maybe option for Winter Approval Rating polls.

[Shakes McQueen]

So if it takes time surely there is evidence of progress that makes people vote "yes I approve"? Thats all I am asking for because believe me, its not fun being the negative guy on the board but I'm not about to fall into the same trap as before with this team. So before i jump on the bandwagon, I'd like to see some proof or have someone point it out to me if I've missed it.

I'm not really on the Winter bandwagon - I tentatively approve of the steps he has taken so far. I've been satisfied with the majority of player transactions he has made to date. I've been pleased with the approach he has preached on the field, even if it hasn't paid off in results yet.

It's all just reading tea leaves right now. Unfortunately this nuance can't really be communicated in an answer to such a binary question. Another reason these polls are kind of useless. I'd be shocked if anyone simply "approved" or "disapproved" of the job Winter is doing, without further context for their answer.

I should say I also understand if others, like yourself, are more pessimistic. The pessimism and cynicism has been well earned by MLSE and TFC in their short history.

- Scott

[Whoop]

In terms of progress, how you judge it is similar to how do you compare a very good team versus a Cup contender? Is it one in the same? What's the difference between NYRB or Columbus? Or RSL and Seattle? What makes one a Cup contender and one just a good team.

It's like judging how good of a draft class a team has two months after the draft has been.

Not to suggest it's a five year plan for winning but IF the plan is to have a team with sustained success, or this culture shift, how can you judge something now based on what the picture will be 3-4 years from now?

That's why I've always been more in the wait and see camp.

[Shakes McQueen]

In terms of progress, how you judge it is similar to how do you compare a very good team versus a Cup contender? Is it one in the same?

It's like judging how good of a draft class a team has two months after the draft has been.

Not to suggest it's a five year plan for winning but IF the plan is to have a team with sustained success, or this culture shift, how can you judge something now based on what the picture will be 3-4 years from now?

That's why I've always been more in the wait and see camp.

I don't think Winter has a timeline of 3-4 years, but I'm trying to look at what this team is headed for in, say, a year from now. I always thought this would be a lost season, results-wise.

I'm waiting and seeing as well, but I've been pleased with the majority of moves Winter has made to date, even if it hasn't translated to on-field success in the immediate present.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Well I guess I appreciate the effort to understand why some of us aren't so thrilled with things as much as others. In the end we all want the same thing for the most part.

To be honest the signings yesterday muted my negativity a little. I'm not over the moon like some but there is no doubting their ability or pedigree. Whether that translates to the pitch will be seen. And without Winter maybe these two don't come here. But I can't help thinking that a better coach would get more from them than an unproven rookie that has never coached the likes of them before. I hope I'm wrong. That's why I am ok with keeping things going into next year but I personally will not accept any more excuses from this team. No more "time". No more "we need one more player". No more "MoJo left things to fix". If this team doesn't get results next year with all the resources made available, it will be a failure.

[TFCin110]

So if it takes time surely there is evidence of progress that makes people vote "yes I approve"? Thats all I am asking for because believe me, its not fun being the negative guy on the board but I'm not about to fall into the same trap as before with this team. So before i jump on the bandwagon, I'd like to see some proof or have someone point it out to me if I've missed it.

I, like Shakes McQueen, understand where you are coming from Roogsy. I am not jumping in with both feet but I think the direction regarding the academy, the new facility, and building our team within a family like club atmosphere is where we should have been since day 1. For those reasons I will give Winter the appropriate time to get things together. But again, I completely understand where 5 years of what we have been given would leave you feeling negative.

[123 elite]

The record is one measure. Looking at it another way, with a depleted line up, we played 6 games and TFC managed to take points in 4 of them.

are you serious ?

[Shakes McQueen]

Well I guess I appreciate the effort to understand why some of us aren't so thrilled with things as much as others. In the end we all want the same thing for the most part.

To be honest the signings yesterday muted my negativity a little. I'm not over the moon like some but there is no doubting their ability or pedigree. Whether that translates to the pitch will be seen. And without Winter maybe these two don't come here. But I can't help thinking that a better coach would get more from them than an unproven rookie that has never coached the likes of them before. I hope I'm wrong. That's why I am ok with keeping things going into next year but I personally will not accept any more excuses from this team. No more "time". No more "we need one more player". No more "MoJo left things to fix". If this team doesn't get results next year with all the resources made available, it will be a failure.

If this team isn't greatly improved next season, I agree, it will be a failure.

That said, I don't think requests for patience, or reminders of the mess MoJo left are merely excuses. There is some truth to it.

Koevermans I think is a terrific signing, acknowledging he hasn't suited up for us yet. As for Frings, I'm waiting to see how Winter intends to use him, but there is no denying his pedigree. And a midfielder with a killer shot is a good thing for this team - I've had enough of watching JDG launch satellites.

- Scott

[123 elite]

WOW....I could have not said it better and I was just about to post something similar. People are likely assessing Winter in relation to the implementation of a new system to players that aren't talented enough to play it. Yes he brought in some of his own players but are roster was virtually non-existent and it was more a case of filling out our team.

.

Can you explain what you mean by this? Is it the 50 yard cross field long ball over Plata/ Martinas head and out for a throw in you are meaning ? Because that is what i was seeing last night , last week etc.

[2mil4dero+santo]

I will approve once these three things happen:

1) we win the NCC on saturday
2) we release the Gargan
3) we release the Peterson

[Mikey]

Ill repeat, on pace to be one of the worst teams in MLS.... ever... and he is doing a good job?

Where is the logic or facts to support these arguments? He signs two players who havent played a second for us? Do people even watch the games?

We had 35% of possession last game, he says we are supposed to be a possession team... We have the worst attacking record, we are supposed to be an attacking side... TFC is nothing that he said it would be six months in.

Up to now this has been horrible, all people do is yak about how bad he is doing, but then support him. The kool-aid must be delicious.

I can sympathise with Winter... he is trying to implement a style of play with players that don't have the skills. He did choose most of those players himself, but we can hardly blame him for that....oh wait.

[Oldtimer]

Can you explain what you mean by this? Is it the 50 yard cross field long ball over Plata/ Martinas head and out for a throw in you are meaning ? Because that is what i was seeing last night , last week etc.

You can't rigidly play a possession game in MLS with MLS-quality players. They can't keep possession for 90 minutes like Barcelona can. The key is to mix it up with the occasional longball to keep the other team from pressing too much forward. A fast counter-attack is also important.

[Oldtimer]

I can sympathise with Winter... he is trying to implement a style of play with players that don't have the skills. He did choose most of those players himself, but we can hardly blame him for that....oh wait.

The spine of the team is only coming into place following the transfer window.

[123 elite]

The key is to mix it up with the occasional longball to keep the other team from pressing too much forward. A fast counter-attack is also important.

Occasional?

[Detroit_TFC]

TORONTO FC -- OUT: MF Elbekay Bouchiba (R knee surgery recovery); DF Adrian Cann (R knee sprain); DF Dicoy Williams (R knee sprain); MF Jacob Peterson (L hamstring strain); FW Alan Gordon (abdominal strain); QUESTIONABLE: MF Julian DeGuzman (L calf strain); MF Tony Tchani (L ankle contusion); DF Nana Attakora (R quadriceps strain); FW Maicon Santos (R hamstring tightness)

***
This is crazy. We can't absorb many more injuries to the roster.

[Cashcleaner]

Well I guess I appreciate the effort to understand why some of us aren't so thrilled with things as much as others. In the end we all want the same thing for the most part.

To be honest the signings yesterday muted my negativity a little. I'm not over the moon like some but there is no doubting their ability or pedigree. Whether that translates to the pitch will be seen. And without Winter maybe these two don't come here. But I can't help thinking that a better coach would get more from them than an unproven rookie that has never coached the likes of them before. I hope I'm wrong. That's why I am ok with keeping things going into next year but I personally will not accept any more excuses from this team. No more "time". No more "we need one more player". No more "MoJo left things to fix". If this team doesn't get results next year with all the resources made available, it will be a failure.

Yeah, I share your sentiments here with regards to Koevermans and Frings. I'll be honest, I'm not really blown away by these signings. Sorry if that's not enough for some, but maybe because we've overhyped so many other incoming players in the past who ended up as duds I've learned to temper my outlook just a bit. I think that overall, both players have a place on the club and have the experience needed to adjust themselves well to the team's dynamics and the MLS style of competition, but yeah, I'm just not completely sold on whether or not they were a good use of the DP slot and the money that would go along with such.

Out of the two, Kovermans is the one I'm most excited for given the fact that he's playing a position we have specifically identified as a problem area. Frings is still up in the air for me. Maybe it's his age? I dunno.

[Azerban]

Out of the two, Kovermans is the one I'm most excited for given the fact that he's playing a position we have specifically identified as a problem area. Frings is still up in the air for me. Maybe it's his age? I dunno.

I understand being hesitant about the pair, but I don't understand this. Age means less as a DM than it does for a striker, and Frings is easily the more experienced guy.

I'm worried about Koevermans.

[Cashcleaner]

^ That's certainly true. If we're talking about a forward or attacking mid, it would really be a different story altogether.

But what specifically about Koevermans are you worried about? I have to admit, he's not a player I really know much about. Saw him play a few games for the dutch national team, but other than that...:noidea:

[LesH]

I voted NO for the record.

And of course, as some posters pointed out, no way that the "YES" voters would be over 50% without the 2 DP signings two days ago.

[Shakes McQueen]

^ That's certainly true. If we're talking about a forward or attacking mid, it would really be a different story altogether.

But what specifically about Koevermans are you worried about? I have to admit, he's not a player I really know much about. Saw him play a few games for the dutch national team, but other than that...:noidea:

He has a great, consistent strike rate over his career. He was talented enough to get called up for the Dutch team, despite them having a lot of other high profile options at that position.

The guy looks like he has been a solid one-in-two striker. A guy like that would be huge here, if he can do it.

- Scott

[TFCin110]

Jan.6 - Winter was hired as head coach.
Jan.6 - TFC has 15 players on their roster.
Mar.19 - TFC plays their first league game.

How can anyone calling this "Winter's Team" thinks that a coach can adequately fill 10-15 roster spots in 43 days with a miniscule salary cap and the draw of it being MLS. Yes he brought in half of the squad, but, while Winter would never publicly say it, how many of the players he signed were not necessarily players he wanted but more a case of the best players available at the time.

[Gazza]

I approve of Winter's job thus far with what he's had to turn over.

However, i do not approve of his celebration after today's win lol. If anyone has a clip of the team sliding towards the supporter's section in celebration, that would be great. Aaron "Twinkle Toes" Winter.

[JuliquE]

Jan.6 - Winter was hired as head coach.
Jan.6 - TFC has 15 players on their roster.
Mar.19 - TFC plays their first league game.

How can anyone calling this "Winter's Team" thinks that a coach can adequately fill 10-15 roster spots in 43 days with a miniscule salary cap and the draw of it being MLS. Yes he brought in half of the squad, but, while Winter would never publicly say it, how many of the players he signed were not necessarily players he wanted but more a case of the best players available at the time.
Been saying this all up and down these boards, since the start.

Voted YES.

[Chevy]

Jan.6 - Winter was hired as head coach.
Jan.6 - TFC has 15 players on their roster.
Mar.19 - TFC plays their first league game.

How can anyone calling this "Winter's Team" thinks that a coach can adequately fill 10-15 roster spots in 43 days with a miniscule salary cap and the draw of it being MLS. Yes he brought in half of the squad, but, while Winter would never publicly say it, how many of the players he signed were not necessarily players he wanted but more a case of the best players available at the time.

+1000. Unless you're Jose Mourinho or have a few hundred million to throw around you simply can't fill 10 roster spots in just over a month.

[ecospice]

de Klerk in as manager, Winter to run the whole org. That's what we need. That's what we'll get, real soon.

[menefreghista]

Jan.6 - Winter was hired as head coach.
Jan.6 - TFC has 15 players on their roster.
Mar.19 - TFC plays their first league game.

How can anyone calling this "Winter's Team" thinks that a coach can adequately fill 10-15 roster spots in 43 days with a miniscule salary cap and the draw of it being MLS. Yes he brought in half of the squad, but, while Winter would never publicly say it, how many of the players he signed were not necessarily players he wanted but more a case of the best players available at the time.

A key important date you are missing is April 15, the closing of the MLS winter transfer window.

[JuliquE]

A key important date you are missing is April 15, the closing of the MLS winter transfer window.
And just how many contracts are ending around that time?

Also worth noting is that the players he'll be able to bring in on the quick will likely be throwing all their eggs into the TFC basket. People are always shouting that we're not a charity, but then cry foul when our club gets a bad rep. for the treatment of it's players.

How would we be perceived to bring in all these young lads, thousands of miles away from anything they know.. only to swap for upgrades, just weeks later, leaving them out in the cold (literally).

This doesn't even take into account the psychological affect this method has (disruption of unity/cohesion; possibly losing the locker room, early on; players struggling to settle in, etc.) and at such a crucial time -- the start of the season.

Prematurely swapping players also doesn't give you a fair chance to see what you have, so you can make bigger - smarter moves (2 DP's), if needed; i.e. making a move early on would have certainly seen Martina's spot secured, for the long term.. whereas now he's likely under close watch, to see how he can fare in the face of such adversity (poor recent form). Another example is how high on JDG Winter was, at the season's start vs. now; likely played a role in deciding which players to bring in. I think it's good that he took his time, then -- didn't commit too soon on big money players, before knowing what would be crucially needed and who would come through for him.

[P-NUTZ]

cool, i'm responding to my own post! I think i am giddily influenced by these last two signings and happily pressed the 'yes' whereas i felt more "on the fence" originally. i am basing this on my belief of what might happen...dangerous i know.
:drinking::drinking::drinking::drinking::drinking:

im starting my own personal march if anyone wants to join in - and i dont usually do this thing but we are on the comeback - mark my words (with quotes for those who chose) TFC!!! TFC!!! TFC!!!

i dont easily get positive nor excited - but i am now.

[TFCin110]

A key important date you are missing is April 15, the closing of the MLS winter transfer window.

Sorry, but I still think 80 days is not enough time to fill the holes of half a team, teach a new system, assess the academy, and fill any other holes in the club's structure? I think it is unrealistic for people to look at the players Winter brought in as his first choice when he had such a limited time to select them. I'll give him this transfer window and the wsummer before I judge his player selection.

[Yohan]

I voted 'reserved', though leaning towards 'yes'.

It does take time for team chemistry to develop, especially with a new system, new bunch of players adjusting to MLS, Preki era players learning a new game, etc. I can't emphasize how important team chemistry is. There's a lot of work to do, but I've seen glimpses of good football this year that I'm optimistic about 2nd half, even though playoffs seems unlikely now.

[Roogsy]

:lol:

I see a couple of "no" votes sneaked in tonight after the game. They should have closed this thread after the NCC win. ;)

[Davenport]

98 Yes and 13 No !!
What the fukc is this board smoking ?

[Roogsy]

Dude...it was 11 no's about an hour ago.

#progress

[Dreadlocks]

98 Yes and 13 No !!
What the fukc is this board smoking ?

Want some? :D

[nickio]

got the 100th yes :)

[jloome]

Jan.6 - Winter was hired as head coach.
Jan.6 - TFC has 15 players on their roster.
Mar.19 - TFC plays their first league game.

How can anyone calling this "Winter's Team" thinks that a coach can adequately fill 10-15 roster spots in 43 days with a miniscule salary cap and the draw of it being MLS. Yes he brought in half of the squad, but, while Winter would never publicly say it, how many of the players he signed were not necessarily players he wanted but more a case of the best players available at the time.

Good point.

[Roogsy]

Jan.6 - Winter was hired as head coach.
Jan.6 - TFC has 15 players on their roster.
Mar.19 - TFC plays their first league game.

How can anyone calling this "Winter's Team" thinks that a coach can adequately fill 10-15 roster spots in 43 days with a miniscule salary cap and the draw of it being MLS. Yes he brought in half of the squad, but, while Winter would never publicly say it, how many of the players he signed were not necessarily players he wanted but more a case of the best players available at the time.


Hmmm...interesting.

In January of 2010, NYRB hired Hans Backe on January 7.

They had 18 players on their senior roster. 3 more than Toronto but I would not call that a significant difference. Between January and March, Soler/Backe, who had almost as much time as Winter/Mariner made over 16 different roster moves in preparation for the new season. The squad that began the season was definitely "Backe's" team just as much as I would call the squad this year "Winter's" team.

That squad opened the season with 3 wins in 4 games. It took a slide in May and then had another sparkling June. All this BEFORE the DPs arrived in July (Henry) and August (Marquez).

Anyone who says that NY is not comparable to Toronto will have to show why that is not the case because as far as I can tell, the situations are remarkably similar. Except for Toronto's record of course.

Soler/Backe didn't seem to have problems filling rosters spots in the same amount of time that Mariner/Winter had.




Oh and they had one disadvantage that we didn't have this year. They also had to wait for the resolution to the CBA which almost ruined the start of the season and made GMs hold off on roster moves until the very last minute. And yet look what they did.

The jury is still out on Uncle Tom's promise to fans of the "best front office in MLS", but it certainly doesn't look favourable for the defense.

[Oldtimer]

^ You're missing the fact that Toronto had to eat a lot of cap space to move its players, while NY didn't. Also, the players beyond the new ones moved in Toronto's case were mostly crap (Preki had decimated most of the good players), New York still had some quite good players beyond what was moved, with just a little crap.

That being said, I have a lot of admiration for Backe, he's done a lot at a club that was disfunctional far longer than Toronto has been. But no-one would have predicted that, foreign managers have a very spotty record in MLS. Everyone here would have preferred Sigi Schmidt.

[ManUtd4ever]

Hmmm...interesting.

In January of 2010, NYRB hired Hans Backe on January 7.

They had 18 players on their senior roster. 3 more than Toronto but I would not call that a significant difference. Between January and March, Soler/Backe, who had almost as much time as Winter/Mariner made over 16 different roster moves in preparation for the new season. The squad that began the season was definitely "Backe's" team just as much as I would call the squad this year "Winter's" team.

That squad opened the season with 3 wins in 4 games. It took a slide in May and then had another sparkling June. All this BEFORE the DPs arrived in July (Henry) and August (Marquez).

Anyone who says that NY is not comparable to Toronto will have to show why that is not the case because as far as I can tell, the situations are remarkably similar. Except for Toronto's record of course.

Soler/Backe didn't seem to have problems filling rosters spots in the same amount of time that Mariner/Winter had.




Oh and they had one disadvantage that we didn't have this year. They also had to wait for the resolution to the CBA which almost ruined the start of the season and made GMs hold off on roster moves until the very last minute. And yet look what they did.

Good post Roogs, but you have ommitted one key influential factor; injuries. I don't recall New York dealing with the overwhelming number of injuries to front line players that Winter has had to deal with over the last several weeks. In fact, I can't recall more than a couple of games this season in which Winter has had a reasonably healthy roster at his disposal. It's not necessarily an excuse for some of the pathetic performances we've witnessed, but it has certainly had a detrimental effect on the club's ability to progress, given the lack of personnel and continuity within the starting lineup.

[Roogsy]

And yet cap space has never been a problem for us this year? That's a red herring OT. That argument holds weight if Mariner/Winter weren't able to make moves because they had run out of cap space but at no point this year have they even come close to hitting the cap, meaning their lack of impact moves is not attributed to having to pay half of Barrett's or DeRo's salary to other teams.

[Beach_Red]

Jan.6 - Winter was hired as head coach.
Jan.6 - TFC has 15 players on their roster.
Mar.19 - TFC plays their first league game.

How can anyone calling this "Winter's Team" thinks that a coach can adequately fill 10-15 roster spots in 43 days with a miniscule salary cap and the draw of it being MLS. Yes he brought in half of the squad, but, while Winter would never publicly say it, how many of the players he signed were not necessarily players he wanted but more a case of the best players available at the time.

First of all, are you sure he's never said it publicly? He's certainly complained about the players not being able to play the way he wants plenty, which is pretty much the same thing.

But really, this is the key to MLS - every team has a miniscule salary cap and domestic requirements and the "draw of being in MLS." No team in the league has all the players they want. Every roster has a bunch of players who were, "the best players available at the time," and 22 out of 30 on the roster have to be Americans so that restricts the "best available" even more.

But every team knows this and every team deals with it. TFC decided to deal with it by using a system that the vast majority of those Americans - who make up the bulk of the roster - haven't played before.

If we have to wait for them to get a full roster of the players they want we'll be waiting a long, long time.

[Roogsy]

Good post Roogs, but you have ommitted one key influential factor; injuries. I don't recall New York dealing with the overwhelming number of injuries to front line players that Winter has had to deal with over the last several weeks. In fact, I can't recall more than a couple of games this season in which Winter has had a reasonably healthy roster at his disposal. It's not necessarily an excuse for some of the pathetic perfromances we've witnessed, but it has certainly had a detrimental effect on the club's ability to progress, given the lack of personnel and continuity within the starting lineup.

Both teams had a few injuries at the start of their respective seasons. But Toronto's injuries seemed to accumulate as the season wore on. Is that bad luck or is that attributable to poor fitness due to the coaching staff? The only thing we do know is that even when there was a minimum level of injuries, Toronto still underperformed. NY did not. And I would suggest that injuries would not have been such an impact for us had Winter/Mariner failed to bring in sufficient players. NY started with almost a full squad at the beginning of their season and we didn't. With the same amount of time for both of them. With a smaller squad, injuries to key players were always going to have a bigger impact.

[Oldtimer]

And yet cap space has never been a problem for us this year? That's a red herring OT. That argument holds weight if Mariner/Winter weren't able to make moves because they had run out of cap space but at no point this year have they even come close to hitting the cap, meaning their lack of impact moves is not attributed to having to pay half of Barrett's or DeRo's salary to other teams.

Maybe true (we don't know what trades they had to turn down), but my second argument does hold. Preki left mainly crap. DeRo, Frei and a couple of others were exceptions, the rest were crap. Harden wouldn't even be on the bench in New York.

[menefreghista]

I find for some the bar is always lowered. There is always an excuse to absolve the idiots running this club.

One thing Backe has over Winter is that he actually had experience coaching professional teams. Coaching youth teams is a totally different job. Results aren't as important as teaching. Its a totally different mentality. I think its part of the reason why TFC's results are suffering. Winter is learning on the job.

So Anselmi promised us the best soccer FO in MLS, and yet again we have a guy learning on the job.

[Whoop]

You believed Anselmi would deliver on his promise? LOL

[TFCin110]

Maybe true (we don't know what trades they had to turn down), but my second argument does hold. Preki left mainly crap. DeRo, Frei and a couple of others were exceptions, the rest were crap. Harden wouldn't even be on the bench in New York.

This is true.

[Oldtimer]

I find for some the bar is always lowered. There is always an excuse to absolve the idiots running this club.


Nah...

Anselmi should be fired. End of.

Whether Winter will work out... well he has been adjusting his tactics to MLS, but only time will tell.

True he's not a proven coach, but neither was Kreis. He could turn out well, he could turn out crap. But it is true that he has some disadvantages to his situation. That doesn't absolve Anselmi of failing to get a proven winner, though.

I wouldn't make a change right now based on a poor half season, though. We go with the horse we bought.

[ManUtd4ever]

Both teams had a few injuries at the start of their respective seasons. But Toronto's injuries seemed to accumulate as the season wore on. Is that bad luck or is that attributable to poor fitness due to the coaching staff? The only thing we do know is that even when there was a minimum level of injuries, Toronto still underperformed. NY did not. And I would suggest that injuries would not have been such an impact for us had Winter/Mariner failed to bring in sufficient players. NY started with almost a full squad at the beginning of their season and we didn't. With the same amount of time for both of them. With a smaller squad, injuries to key players were always going to have a bigger impact.

Ultimately, there are examples within MLS to support or oppose the notion of preaching patience for a rebuilding squad. You mention New York as the blueprint for success, and others will mention recent MLS Cup champions RSL and Colorado; both of which took 2 years to rebuild, and surpassed New York in terms of results.

In order to be truly objective regarding the capabilities of the new management regime, it is imperative that we allow the the proper timeframe for Winter and Mariner to effectively put their stamp on the entire roster, and allow the players that have been acquired to become acclimated to the system, as well as their teammates. Even if you aren't willing to allow the same timeframe that was required for the most recent MLS Cup Champion clubs to succeed, at the very least, you should be willing to reserve judgement on the new management regime until the end of the season.

[TFCin110]

Ultimately, there are examples within MLS to support or oppose the notion of preaching patience for a rebuilding squad. You mention New York as the blueprint for success, and others will mention recent MLS Cup champions RSL and Colorado, which took 2 years to rebuild and exceeded New York in terms of results.

In order to be truly objective regarding the capabilities of the new management regime, it is imperative that we allow the the proper timeframe for Winter and Mariner to effectively put their stamp on the entire roster, and allow the players that have been acquired to become acclimated to the system, as well as their teammates. Even if you aren't willing to allow the same timeframe that was required for the most recent MLS Cup Champion clubs to succeed, at the very least, you should be willing to reserve judgement on the new management regime until the end of the season.

This is a fair comment.

[menefreghista]

You believed Anselmi would deliver on his promise? LOL

Not really. But he should be held accountable for not delivering on it.

MLSE set the bar high, and instead we have our worst team ever.

But at MLSE, people often fail upwards. So Anselmi will probably translate ruining TFC into replacing Peddie.


I wouldn't make a change right now based on a poor half season, though. We go with the horse we bought.

I'm not really sure what TFC should do at this point. The MLS regular season is essentially a right off anyways.

But if I'm TFC I am starting to make a list of possible Winter replacements. They can not do what they did with Preki and Mo again (ie. fire them and wait months to replace them). And if the right candidate became available for whatever reason, I would consider ending the Winter era and immediately hiring the new guy.

Besides, if we get more NYRB results there is always the risk of Winter leaving on his own. It could happen. That outcome shouldn't be discounted.

[Roogsy]

Ultimately, there are examples within MLS to support or oppose the notion of preaching patience for a rebuilding squad. You mention New York as the blueprint for success, and others will mention recent MLS Cup champions RSL and Colorado; both of which took 2 years to rebuild, and surpassed New York in terms of results.

In order to be truly objective regarding the capabilities of the new management regime, it is imperative that we allow the the proper timeframe for Winter and Mariner to effectively put their stamp on the entire roster, and allow the players that have been acquired to become acclimated to the system, as well as their teammates. Even if you aren't willing to allow the same timeframe that was required for the most recent MLS Cup Champion clubs to succeed, at the very least, you should be willing to reserve judgement on the new management regime until the end of the season.

That I have to wait, I have already admitted to begrudgingly. There is no advantage to changing coaches right now. We'd be doing ourselves more damage. I have said this repeatedly.

HOWEVER...

This does not mean that we do not point out the failings of the current coach to each other, and hopefully to the team. For 2 reasons: 1) To give Winter the opportunity to address his coaching shortcomings. It should never come to this as TFC SHOULD have brought in someone where there wasn't a need to "learn on the job" but what is done is done. For now then, he needs to fly up that learning curve as quickly as possible and make adjustments to his tactical knowledge, his motivational style and his implementation. And he needs to do it quicker than he has been so far. And 2) If he does not address these shortcomings, then when there comes an opportune time to let him go, there is sufficient reason to do so.

One thing is for sure, I highly disagree in giving him an "approved" rating given the many shortcomings we have seen so far. It would seem fans have been far too willing to approve of his job so far based solely on his platitudes not on his results. I find that disturbing.

[menefreghista]

And yet cap space has never been a problem for us this year? That's a red herring OT. That argument holds weight if Mariner/Winter weren't able to make moves because they had run out of cap space but at no point this year have they even come close to hitting the cap, meaning their lack of impact moves is not attributed to having to pay half of Barrett's or DeRo's salary to other teams.

It appears Winter/Mariner's plan was to save cap space for some mid-summer moves. Hence the two new DPs.

Its just too bad that by the time these players can play the MLS results won't matter too much.

So would TFC have performed better the first half the season if we had spent to the cap? Most likely. But we don't know for sure.

[Oldtimer]

OK, so let's look at RSL after Kreis took over:


COLUMBUS, Ohio -- At the bottom of the MLS table as far as points or goals scored are concerned, Real Salt Lake looks set to set the league record in frustration.
And that explains the deathly quiet, ashen faces and funereal atmosphere in the visitors' locker room following Saturday's 2-0 loss before 14,203 at Crew Stadium.
"We're frustrated with the results," Real Salt Lake defender Ritchie Kotschau said. "We're frustrated with how we're playing. We're just frustrated overall. Things don't seem to be going our way."
As has often been the case this season, the collapse came late. Columbus scored both goals in the final quarter-hour of play. Of the 23 goals surrendered by Real Salt Lake this season, 10 have been scored in the final 15 minutes.


"Obviously, they say the game's 90 minutes-plus," Kotschau said. "You've got to stay with it for that amount of time."
Columbus took the lead in the 76th minute on a somewhat controversial penalty kick. Andy Herron broke into the penalty area and played the ball beyond Real Salt Lake defender Kotschau. When Kotschau went to the ground to play the ball, Herron stepped on the defender's chest, then went to the ground himself and was awarded the penalty kick.
"I didn't get the ball and I didn't get (Herron) either," Kotschau said. "It's just one of those things where we get in situations and it looks like a PK. (Referee Alex Prus) is forced to make a decision, and he made a decision for a PK."
Guillermo Barros Schelotto, the creator of so many Columbus attacks on Saturday, stepped up and drove the penalty kick high into the net.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070708/ai_n19356465/


or this:


CARSON, Calif. -- Real took another step closer to being mathematically eliminated from the playoff race Sunday in exactly the type of match that's defined the 2007 season. RSL played decent defense, came up with great goalkeeping, and despite only surrendering one goal, lost again.
That's because Real was shut out for the 10th time this season, falling to Chivas USA 1-0 in front of 11,217 fans at the Home Depot Center.
It's not a surprising result. Chivas USA is on pace to finish with one of the best records in MLS, and hadn't lost at home in seven matches prior to Sunday. RSL meanwhile, hasn't won on the road all year and owns the worst record in the league.


Even coach Jason Kreis, who's been the ultimate optimist through this difficult campaign, seemed resigned to the team's postseason fate after the match.
"We are at a place where we're looking one game at a time," he said. "To be completely honest with you, I don't know how many points we need to try and get into the playoffs, because it's not important. What's important is the next
game."
For the record, RSL probably needs to win 10 of its last 11 games to have a chance, a seemingly impossible feat. As for the club's next game, it's this Wednesday at home against Kansas City. After that, it's four straight road games. Ouch.
Real's 29 goals against puts it in the middle of the pack in MLS, with New York, Kansas City, Toronto and Los Angeles all surrendering more. It's the goal production that's killed the club this year. Salt Lake has scored a league-worst 14 goals this year, and with only 11 games remaining, the team is on pace to break the MLS record of fewest goals in a season, which is 29.
With Sunday's loss, which is the only stat that matters, RSL is also flirting with the worst record in MLS history.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070827/ai_n19489340/?tag=rel.res2

So if it had been TFC and anyone here was the GM, they would have fired Kreis at this point.... and they would have given up that MLS Cup win 2 years later, the CCL final and everything else that followed.

Winter may be crap. he may be good. My point is that it's unwise to judge too soon.
TFC is more like RSL than NYRB, because in both cases a complete rebuild was necessary.

[Roogsy]

Maybe true (we don't know what trades they had to turn down), but my second argument does hold. Preki left mainly crap. DeRo, Frei and a couple of others were exceptions, the rest were crap. Harden wouldn't even be on the bench in New York.

Given the turnover at NY at the start of Backe's tenure, you could argue they too had "crap". Their first team was almost entirely new right off the bat. Very little difference there with NY as well and yet massive differences in results.


So if it had been TFC and anyone here was the GM, they would have fired Kreis at this point.... and they would have given up that MLS Cup win, the CCL final and everything else that followed.

Winter may be crap. he may be good. My point is that it's unwise to judge too soon.
TFC is more like RSL than NYRB, because in both cases a complete rebuild was necessary.

Kreis had the advantage of working as an assistant coach in MLS and then getting promoted. He had the advantage of playing in the league and knowing it. He had the advantage of having his player's respect from the get-go. And he had the advantage of the full confidence of his owner who put him there himself. Despite a rough start, RSL showed heart and desire. They showed fight. And they weren't getting blown out 6-2 and 5-0.

Winter has none of these things.

You may compare TFC to RSL more than NY as much as you like but I still contend TFC is more similar to NY. A big city with all the money at their disposal and yet disappointing results. A restless fanbase that needed success after previous management had screwed things up. RSL didn't really have this situation.

And ultimately, I completely disagree that NYRB was not a complete rebuild. It was. And it was done a heckuvalot quicker than TFC is currently doing. And yet TFC, more than RSL and more than NY desparately needed quicker fixing.

Ultimately it comes down to this question: What evidence is there that Winter has the capability to do what we all know his team needs doing? Has he a) shown to be able to do it elsewhere or b) shown any evidence to be able to do it here?

If the answer is yes, then carry on. If the answer is no, then we should all be more skeptical than most of us appear to be.

[Roogsy]

It appears Winter/Mariner's plan was to save cap space for some mid-summer moves. Hence the two new DPs.

Its just too bad that by the time these players can play the MLS results won't matter too much.

So would TFC have performed better the first half the season if we had spent to the cap? Most likely. But we don't know for sure.


The question then is, how did NY manage to keep the cap space available while still being competitive while they waited for their DPs.

Had we been more compatitive and stood higher on the table, bringing in these new DPs might have given us a chance to make the playoffs. An efficient use of DPs this year. If we fall to Real Esteli, what value do these DPs represent to us this year?

[Beach_Red]

You may compare TFC to RSL more than NY as much as you like but I still contend TFC is more similar to NY. A big city with all the money at their disposal and yet disappointing results. A restless fanbase that needed success after previous management had screwed things up. RSL didn't really have this situation.



And the ownerships. When you talk about replacing a coach or GM who makes the decision? For RSL it's Dave Checketts, it's his team and he's the final say on all this. He picked Kreiss (and Lagerway). For NYRB and TFC it's someone in upper management at a (sports) company. The structure of NYRB and TFC is probably much closer, it just comes down to that upper management.

[ManUtd4ever]

That I have to wait, I have already admitted to begrudgingly. There is no advantage to changing coaches right now. We'd be doing ourselves more damage. I have said this repeatedly.

HOWEVER...

This does not mean that we do not point out the failings of the current coach to each other, and hopefully to the team. For 2 reasons: 1) To give Winter the opportunity to address his coaching shortcomings. It should never come to this as TFC SHOULD have brought in someone where there wasn't a need to "learn on the job" but what is done is done. For now then, he needs to fly up that learning curve as quickly as possible and make adjustments to his tactical knowledge, his motivational style and his implementation. And he needs to do it quicker than he has been so far. And 2) If he does not address these shortcomings, then when there comes an opportune time to let him go, there is sufficient reason to do so.

One thing is for sure, I highly disagree in giving him an "approved" rating given the many shortcomings we have seen so far. It would seem fans have been far too willing to approve of his job so far based solely on his platitudes not on his results. I find that disturbing.

I have never suggested that Winter should be immune from criticism. In fact, I have been critical of some of his decisions thus far as well. I just think it is premature to declare that the new regime is destined for failure, despite the disappointing results in their inaugral season.

I'm not suggesting that TFC will win the MLS Cup in 2 years as RSL and Colorado did, but keep in mind that Jason Kreis and Gary Smith also "learned on the job", and had to overcome tumultuous debuts to their respective coaching tenures prior to reaping the benefits of their patience and diligence.

[Roogsy]

I have never suggested that Winter should be immune from criticism. In fact, I have been critical of some of his decisions thus far. I just think it is premature to declare the new regime is destined for failure, despite the disappointing results in their inaugral season. I'm not suggesting that TFC will win the MLS Cup in 2 years as RSL and Colorado did, but keep in mind that Jason Kreis and Gary Smith also "learned on the job" and had to overcome tumultuous debuts to their respective coaching tenures prior to reaping the benefits of their patience and diligence.


This is definitely a possibility. Winter may turn out to be a great coach, or then again a complete bust. It still begs the question of what exactly is an "approved" status based on right now? Promises for the future?

There appears to be little skepticism about Winter's abilities so far and for a fanbase that just experienced the debacle of the Mo era, you'd think we'd be a little more jaded. There appears to be an overwhelming desire from a majority to crown this guy our saviour but it must be either I am missing something or they are because nothing in this guy so far inspires confidence in me, and yet it seems to in others. And I would like to know what that is.

[Pachuco]

Maybe true (we don't know what trades they had to turn down), but my second argument does hold. Preki left mainly crap. DeRo, Frei and a couple of others were exceptions, the rest were crap. Harden wouldn't even be on the bench in New York.

I have to say both Roogsy and Old Timer making some good points.

I just want to say one thing about this though. What bugs me a little bit about Winter is that when Nana was healthy he was still putting out the crap we have been calling crap beore this season. I'll never forget him playing Cann at RB so that Harden could play. That was an embarassment of a game that will forever be engrained in me.

So I know that some of the players Winter was left with are crap, but what's concerning is there are many times he's chosen that crap over his own players. And not because of injuries.

[Oldtimer]

There appears to be little skepticism about Winter's abilities so far and for a fanbase that just experienced the debacle of the Mo era, you'd think we'd be a little more jaded. There appears to be an overwhelming desire from a majority to crown this guy our saviour but it must be either I am missing something or they are because nothing in this guy so far inspires confidence in me, and yet it seems to in others. And I would like to know what that is.

I think you're totally misreading the situation.
Many people are extremely jaded/very pessimistic. Otherwise, why would people be so negative after half a season? Why are tickets so hard to sell? Why is the stadium half empty?

People are approving of Winter because there isn't much alternative at this point. You have to dance with the one who brung ya. We have to see this season out, and hope that Winter turns out to be TFC's solution.




You may compare TFC to RSL more than NY as much as you like but I still contend TFC is more similar to NY. A big city with all the money at their disposal and yet disappointing results. A restless fanbase that needed success after previous management had screwed things up. RSL didn't really have this situation.


City-wise, yes. Fanbase, yes. Screwed up upper management, yes. A FO that alienates supporters, yes.

Roster-wise, no.
Kreis had to dig deep to rebuild, including getting rid of some good key players that didn't fit his system or who had attitude problems.

He had an advantage in having a great owner, who recognized that he had to stick by him. It was a very risky move. Garber didn't approve. The media wasn't favourable. The fanbase wasn't onside. But it worked.

TFC has to take a similar risk with Winter and see it through (maybe they should have done the same with Preki). Maybe they backed the wrong horse. But there is no good alternative.

I hope it works out as well as Kreis. I fear it turns out badly.

[Roogsy]

I think you're totally misreading the situation.

Perhaps. Not everyone suffers from "verbal diarrhea" like I do so perhaps there is more skepticism out there, they're just not as vocal about it as Roogsy is.

[menefreghista]

I think you're totally misreading the situation.
Many people are extremely jaded/very pessimistic. Otherwise, why would people be so negative after half a season? Why are tickets so hard to sell? Why is the stadium half empty?

Because we are terrible?

With very little signs of improvement other than platitudes?

[Beach_Red]

He had an advantage in having a great owner, who recognized that he had to stick by him. It was a very risky move. Garber didn't approve. The media wasn't favourable. The fanbase wasn't onside. But it worked.


It would be interesting to know what Kreiss told Checketts his plan would be, how he convinced him to take such a big risk and then stick with it as it played out.

I get the feeling Klinsmann didn't have to sell his plan to anyone, he just told them what it was and they said okay. Did they interview any other coaching candidates?

[Roogsy]

If you want a good reading on the Checketts/Kreis relationship, read this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/grant_wahl/04/20/rsl/index.html

[Whoop]

Ultimately I think Exiled hit on the head.

Some of these foreign coaches underestimate MLS. Yeah, it's shit, but it's not that shit.

The difference between NYRB and TFC is that NYRB goes out and gets to non-DP internationals in Roy Miller and Joel Lindpere, both who played in Norway and Erik Soler would know. They trade for Carl Robinson, pick up Tim Ream in the draft and sign Juan Agudelo from their academy. You can concede though that Erik Soler was hired earlier (he was hired in December of '09) but all these moves came in the time after Backe was hired.

By comparison, TFC brings in these young guys who, while the idea is good, don't have much experience starting in any league.

Just look at the difference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_New_York_Red_Bulls_season#Transfers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Toronto_FC_season#Player_Movement

Less movement from NYRB, but more astute moves.

And by the way, Sigi Schmid, while hailing from Germany, moved to the States as a kid and coached for decades before going moving on to coach in the MLS.

[ensco]

I just think the reason support for Winter is so strong, is that the alternative is too awful to contemplate, given the history. If this were Year One, I believe there's no way the poll comes in at 11% "no".

[Beach_Red]

If you want a good reading on the Checketts/Kreis relationship, read this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/grant_wahl/04/20/rsl/index.html


Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff in that article. Like this:

"We have a style that I would call mixed between American and Latin, a new style," says Morales. "We work very hard in the American way, and we have a Latin game where we try to take care of the ball. It's not just the Latinos, either. This team has an idea of playing that's perhaps different from other [MLS] teams and more entertaining."

So, maybe TFC will come up with its own style, too, that fits MLS and takes advantage of the players it can sign.

And maybe TFC will someday have a management team that can say this:

"If you're going to run a bakery you should hire bakers, and if you're going to run a soccer team you should hire soccer players," says Lagerwey. "With everything we do we think: 'One of the five of us has been in this position. What did we do? How did we like it when our coach or GM said this or that to us?' By thinking through how every decision affects our players and our team before we make them, we've tried to be respectful of how we treat our players."

(that's for you Roogsy :))

[Roogsy]

:thumbsup:

[Oldtimer]

^ The other way to put it is New York is in "win now" mode, instead of building for the future. It could be argued that TFC should have done that to rescue their fanbase...but time will tell. It's obvious that Winter's attention isn't really on this season, but on long-term building.

A note about Backe: it's a bit unfair to "cherry pick" him from out of the many foreign big name coaches that have failed in MLS. Not just Ruud Gullit. There have been many over the years. Most foreign coaches that have worked out either coached at a lower level or played themselves in North America before coaching in MLS.

Klinnsmann's smart move (which will cost ML$E a lot of $$$) was to pair his European coach (Winter) with Mariner to make up for the unfamiliarity.

Now why did they pick someone like Winter?

I suspect that Winter was chosen because he was the best available using a Dutch style. Now Klinssmann had surveyed ML$E's staff before going for someone in that style. Why did ML$E pick that style, as opposed to Latino (e.g. DC United) style play? The answer is probably in the academy. Ajax sells a tonne of talent, and ML$E's accounting staff noticed that selling players can be extremely profitable. So, go with Ajax talent to build that profit centre (the Academy), and bring in Mariner to give some MLS-savvy.

If ultimately they dump Winter, they should bring in someone from Holland or Spain to keep some consistency.


I just think the reason support for Winter is so strong, is that the alternative is too awful to contemplate, given the history.

exactly.

[ManUtd4ever]

I just think the reason support for Winter is so strong, is that the alternative is too awful to contemplate, given the history. If this were Year One, I believe there's no way the poll comes in at 11% "no".

This is true to an extent, but if TFC was an expansion team, I think the majority of supporters would still be willing to give the current management regime at least one full season before passing judgement.

Moreover, if this was year one, I think supporters would also be somewhat placated at this juncture with a NCC trophy, 2 DP's signed during the summer transfer window, and the potential of the CCL group stage on the horizon.

[Roogsy]

This is true to an extent, but if TFC was an expansion team, I think the majority of supporters would still be willing to give the current management regime at least one full season before passing judgement.

Moreover, if this was year one, I think supporters would also be somewhat placated at this juncture with a NCC trophy, 2 DP's signed during the summer transfer window, and the potential of the CCL group stage on the horizon.


I can't argue with this.

[TFCRegina]

Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff in that article. Like this:

"We have a style that I would call mixed between American and Latin, a new style," says Morales. "We work very hard in the American way, and we have a Latin game where we try to take care of the ball. It's not just the Latinos, either. This team has an idea of playing that's perhaps different from other [MLS] teams and more entertaining."

So, maybe TFC will come up with its own style, too, that fits MLS and takes advantage of the players it can sign.

And maybe TFC will someday have a management team that can say this:

"If you're going to run a bakery you should hire bakers, and if you're going to run a soccer team you should hire soccer players," says Lagerwey. "With everything we do we think: 'One of the five of us has been in this position. What did we do? How did we like it when our coach or GM said this or that to us?' By thinking through how every decision affects our players and our team before we make them, we've tried to be respectful of how we treat our players."

(that's for you Roogsy :))

And you can get both if you're with Phillip's Bakery FC!

[Beach_Red]

Klinnsmann's smart move (which will cost ML$E a lot of $$$) was to pair his European coach (Winter) with Mariner to make up for the unfamiliarity.



Why will this cost them a lot of money?

[Pookie]

Are we on about the Hans Backe thing again?

The only example ever used of a club going worst to first (well 3rd overall actually) as the measuring stick?

The only example that in itself was a league record, meaning it was never done before and therefore a realistic target for any team of the future.

The only example that is provided that fails to mention that despite their worst to first (3rd actually) that they didn't win a single trophy in that campaign and got bounced in the US Open Cup and the MLS Playoffs.

And when citing this example, no one seems to mention that the last two Cup Champions have come from the 7th and 8th seeds. That of course means that regular season records meant nothing to the legend that appears to be Hans Backe.

[Oldtimer]

Are we on about the Hans Backe thing again?

The only example ever used of a club going worst to first (well 3rd overall actually) as the measuring stick?

The only example that in itself was a league record, meaning it was never done before and therefore a realistic target for any team of the future.

The only example that is provided that fails to mention that despite their worst to first (3rd actually) that they didn't win a single trophy in that campaign and got bounced in the US Open Cup and the MLS Playoffs.

And when citing this example, no one seems to mention that the last two Cup Champions have come from the 7th and 8th seeds. That of course means that regular season records meant nothing to the legend that appears to be Hans Backe.

A patient 2-1/2 year rebuild like RSL doesn't appeal to a fanbase that's fed up.
This is a Toronto problem, and affects all franchises, not just ML$E's.
However, if you follow RSL's example, you have a long-term winner, season after season.

ML$E should wait things out like Checketts did. Hopefully they backed the right horse. The right thing would have been to consider this season a write-off from the beginning.

Things looking horrible at this point is exactly what should have been expected.

[Whoop]

Are we on about the Hans Backe thing again?

The only example ever used of a club going worst to first (well 3rd overall actually) as the measuring stick?

The only example that in itself was a league record, meaning it was never done before and therefore a realistic target for any team of the future.

The only example that is provided that fails to mention that despite their worst to first (3rd actually) that they didn't win a single trophy in that campaign and got bounced in the US Open Cup and the MLS Playoffs.

And when citing this example, no one seems to mention that the last two Cup Champions have come from the 7th and 8th seeds. That of course means that regular season records meant nothing to the legend that appears to be Hans Backe.

Yes, the playoffs are meaningless to an extent, but I'd still rather be at top of the standings than at 7th to 10th.

[Pookie]

^ Oldtimer, to take a contentious issue, the way Toronto managed the DeRo asset is hands down better than New York and I prefer the approach taken by the club.

From a net perspective, NY dealt Tchani, Borman and a 1st round pick for McCarty and increased their cap hit by $110k in the process.

Yep, NYRB is the model.

[Roogsy]

Yes, the playoffs are meaningless to an extent, but I'd still rather be at top of the standings than at 7th to 10th.

I can't believe this even needs stating.

[Oldtimer]

Yes, the playoffs are meaningless to an extent, but I'd still rather be at top of the standings than at 7th to 10th.

I'd rather win the MLS Cup in 2 years than be a a team that barely gets in for one season, then is hopeless the next.

[Pookie]

Yes, the playoffs are meaningless to an extent, but I'd still rather be at top of the standings than at 7th to 10th.

So what's the goal of a season? MLS Cup? Or Supporters Shield?

Like it or not, it's not Europe and Table Champs mean nothing except to those that romanticize the issue.

[Roogsy]

Things looking horrible at this point is exactly what should have been expected.


Nope I simply will not accept this. It's one thing to struggle and show weaknesses. It's another to show no heart and to be the laughing stock of the league. One is necessary in a rebuild, the other just shows poor management. For some reasons, these are equated to each other and I simply don't believe it to be true.


I'd rather win the MLS Cup in 2 years than be a a team that barely gets in for one season, then is hopeless the next.

Are you saying these are the only two options?

Are you also saying that by going through this suffering, fans are assured an MLS cup in 2 years?

[Pookie]

Nope I simply will not accept this. It's one thing to struggle and show weaknesses. It's another to show no heart and to be the laughing stock of the league.

While we are cherry picking examples, no heart as in 5-0 loss to NY or no heart as in 2-2 road draw in LA?

[Pachuco]

^ Oldtimer, to take a contentious issue, the way Toronto managed the DeRo asset is hands down better than New York and I prefer the approach taken by the club.

From a net perspective, NY dealt Tchani, Borman and a 1st round pick for McCarty and increased their cap hit by $110k in the process.

Yep, NYRB is the model.

Well Borman and Tchani haven't made us a better team yet. Maybe they knew something most of us didn't.

[Oldtimer]

Nope I simply will not accept this. It's one thing to struggle and show weaknesses. It's another to show no heart and to be the laughing stock of the league. One is necessary in a rebuild, the other just shows poor management. For some reasons, these are equated to each other and I simply don't believe it to be true.


did you read the quotes from RSL's 2007 season? They set a league record for futility and were the laughing-stock of the league. Yep, Kreis is a terrible manager and should have been fired. :rolleyes:


And that explains the deathly quiet, ashen faces and funereal atmosphere in the visitors' locker room following Saturday's 2-0 loss before 14,203 at Crew Stadium.Sounds like poor morale.


With Sunday's loss, which is the only stat that matters, RSL is also flirting with the worst record in MLS history.

Laughing-stock of the league.

[Whoop]

So what's the goal of a season? MLS Cup? Or Supporters Shield?

Like it or not, it's not Europe and Table Champs mean nothing except to those that romanticize the issue.

It should be both.

Supporters Shield winner qualifies for the CONCACAF champions league.

[Beach_Red]

So what's the goal of a season? MLS Cup? Or Supporters Shield?

Like it or not, it's not Europe and Table Champs mean nothing except to those that romanticize the issue.


Well, anything only has the meaning you give it sports are existential ;).

But the goal this year is to look like the building towards success is happening. 6-2, 5-0 losses doesn't look like it. At the moment it looks more like NY's short-term "sign as many DPs as possible" approach.

[Pookie]

Well Borman and Tchani haven't made us a better team yet. Maybe they knew something most of us didn't.

?

Oh right, you are in the win now camp. See, the concept is that over time, the team will be better with the combination of players, cap space and draft pick that they acquired.

[Whoop]

I'm wondering if Winter/Mariner are smart that they can some agencies to their benefit.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/sport-promotion-b-v-/details/berater_274.html

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/ans-sport-gmbh/details/berater_2.html

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/sports-entertainment-group/details/berater_586.html

[Pachuco]

?

Oh right, you are in the win now camp. See, the concept is that over time, the team will be better with the combination of players, cap space and draft pick that they acquired.

You are being hypocritical. So why isn't it that over time maybe NY ends up on top with McCarty? Personally I wouldn't be shocked if Borman doesn't have a job in the MLS in a couple of years. Tchani came in with alot of promise, but that doesn't guarantee success. And that late round draft pick, well, statistics tell us he'll never make it.

So all I'm saying is, you are kissing Winter's ass and knocking NY for making moves that "maybe" over time will work out for us?

[ManUtd4ever]

Well, anything only has the meaning you give it sports are existential ;).

But the goal this year is to look like the building towards success is happening. 6-2, 5-0 losses doesn't look like it. At the moment it looks more like NY's short-term "sign as many DPs as possible" approach.

In addition to placating the supporters, the reason Frings and Koevermans were signed was to provide a semblence of leadership that has been sorely lacking on TFC's roster this season. I think the long term approach to building the club primarily through youth development has remained intact, but I'm glad that management has decided to augment the roster with experienced veterans. Hopefully, it will improve the results on the pitch in the short term as well.

[Whoop]

?

Oh right, you are in the win now camp. See, the concept is that over time, the team will be better with the combination of players, cap space and draft pick that they acquired.

It's not a case of win now, it's a case of not getting trashed while looking hopeless.

Hell, I could even understand if the trashings all took place in the first handful of games... but losing 4-2 (March vs Vancouver), then 3-0 (April vs DC), then 3-0 (April vs Seattle), then 6-2 (May vs Philadelphia), and 5-0 (July vs NY). When TFC loses they lose big.

Hell, I would have no problem losing matches 1-0 or 2-1 if the team showed some fight and created opportunities and had won more than 3 games.

And as for the Voyageurs Cup until all 3 Canadian teams are established in MLS, it should be a given for Toronto to win it until then.

[TFCin110]

did you read the quotes from RSL's 2007 season? They set a league record for futility and were the laughing-stock of the league. Yep, Kreis is a terrible manager and should have been fired. :rolleyes:

Sounds like poor morale.



Laughing-stock of the league.


Well played Oldtimer, well played.

[Azerban]

did you read the quotes from RSL's 2007 season? They set a league record for futility and were the laughing-stock of the league. Yep, Kreis is a terrible manager and should have been fired. :rolleyes:

Sounds like poor morale.



Laughing-stock of the league.

the only team they finished above? oooh lets take a wild guess

[J .]

Nope I simply will not accept this. It's one thing to struggle and show weaknesses. It's another to show no heart and to be the laughing stock of the league. One is necessary in a rebuild, the other just shows poor management. For some reasons, these are equated to each other and I simply don't believe it to be true.





+1


Ill also add that we have lost and we lose horribly. Any team that contends can play defense and attack with width. TFC has never been able to do that.

How anyone can say this teams losing mentality will lead to a championship one is not facing up to reality.

Winter is stubborn in his tactical approach, if he knows his players cannot play that system, why play it? There is very little beauty is having 10% possession and we did in the final 15 minutes in the first half vs Ny. Continuously having around 40% while giving up massive amounts of goals, is not attacking football for the good, its pathetic and its 4/5 years we have been fed lies and 5/5 years have had bad coaching.

Pathetic.

[Roogsy]

While we are cherry picking examples, no heart as in 5-0 loss to NY or no heart as in 2-2 road draw in LA?


Do you really want to go toe-to-toe on a comparison this year of games where the team showed heart vs games where the team folded like a cheap lawnchair?

[Roogsy]

did you read the quotes from RSL's 2007 season? They set a league record for futility and were the laughing-stock of the league. Yep, Kreis is a terrible manager and should have been fired. :rolleyes:

Sounds like poor morale.



Laughing-stock of the league.


Um...you do realize that Real Salt Lake did not BEGIN 2007 with Kreis as the head coach right? In fact, for the first 6 weeks of the season, Kreis was still a player.

2008 was Kreis's first full season as the Head Coach, especially with an opportunity for off-season moves. If you want to compare roster selection and season results, 2008 is a more appropriate comparison for Kreis/Winter than 2007. Remind me again where Real Salt Lake finished in the table in 2008? Here's a hint, they were playing in November.

So much for the RSL comparison. That NY comparison is looking more and more accurate.

[mastermixer]

So if you watch the latest upload on TFC TV with Peterson they ask him about prepping for games and if it's better to focus on your opposition. He mentioned that even though he would prefer to, they don't really focus on the how to prepare for the other team and focus more on improving internally. If this is the case, this may be a major weakness with this coaching staff and is not giving me much confidence in Winters ability to work with MLS.

[Roogsy]

It could point to having little respect for his opposition and having too much confidence in his "system". Considering his stubborness to adjusting to the opposition, it's not farfetched.

[Whoop]

I think it also has to do with the fact that this team still needs a lot of help internally. LOL

[Oldtimer]

Um...you do realize that Real Salt Lake did not BEGIN 2007 with Kreis as the head coach right? In fact, for the first 6 weeks of the season, Kreis was still a player.

2008 was Kreis's first full season as the Head Coach

That was only 4 games, Roogsy. In a 30 game season (which is what they had in 2007), that means he coached 26 of them. If you are going to do that, then please start Winter's clock in 2012.

2007 was the rebuilding year. He rebuilt most of the team in that year, getting rid of a lot of top talent like the league's top scorer (Cunningham to Toronto), Freddy Adu (who had a much bigger reputation than he has now), USMNT player Chris Klein, and Mehdi Ballouchy (who now plays for New York), and also replacing a lot of other players. People thought he was nuts.

He brought in a lot of new players, some who worked out, some who didn't. They didn't gell and looked absolutely terrible that season. Believe me, no one looking at that team, myself included, saw that MLS Cup down the road.

So if Winter gets us into the playoffs in 2012, he will be right on track.

[Oldtimer]

One thing that many are missing here is that Winter isn't even able to play a proper 4-3-3 because he has been missing a proper target man. Gordon is a below-average striker who is injury prone, yet the team has played 100% better with him the few games he was available as he gives another important dimension to the attack.

if you want an example of how crucial a target man is to the 4-3-3, just look at Argentina vs. Columbia this last week. They played 4-3-3 without a target man and couldn't score a single goal, even though they have Messi! lol. They were booed off the pitch by their own fans.

The first half of this season is in no way indicative of how the second half will play out. Koevermans will make a huge difference to this team, much more than Frings will, even though Frings is the far more famous player. Only then will you start to see what Winter is intending. Basing your judgement on a partially rebuilt team missing the most important piece is unwise.

I know we're all afraid that it will turn out terribly, myself included, but let's just all take a collective deep breath. :chillpill:

[Heathen]

That was only 4 games, Roogsy. In a 30 game season (which is what they had in 2007), that means he coached 26 of them. If you are going to do that, then please start Winter's clock in 2012.

2007 was the rebuilding year. He rebuilt most of the team in that year, getting rid of a lot of top talent like the league's top scorer (Cunningham to Toronto), Freddy Adu (who had a much bigger reputation than he has now), USMNT player Chris Klein, and Mehdi Ballouchy (who now plays for New York), and also replacing a lot of other players. People thought he was nuts.

He brought in a lot of new players, some who worked out, some who didn't. They didn't gell and looked absolutely terrible that season. Believe me, no one looking at that team, myself included, saw that MLS Cup down the road.

So if Winter gets us into the playoffs in 2012, he will be right on track.

The use of RSL and Columbus as examples of why we should stick with Winter is bogus. I've checked the stats and if you look at both Kreis and Schmid's first seasons, Winter will have to get 12 points from 14 games to match Kreis and 17 from 14 to match Schmid. Considering how home loaded the schedule has been I'm not confident it will happen. This is all based on points per game.

[ag futbol]

Correlation does not mean causation. Sucking right now only means that we suck; it does not mean that we’re in-line to improve in the future. For every Jason Kreis, there is a Ruud Gullit, for every Sigi Schmid there is a Carlos de los Cabos.

I look at what were doing and it seems like we have a plan and we're sticking to it. But at the same time, I wonder if they accounted for the type of environment they are dealing with when creating that plan, which is critical if they want to succeed.

What we're seeing tactically week-to-week and in terms of personnel decisions just doesn't mesh (in my mind at least) with the type of league MLS is.

[Beach_Red]

I look at what were doing and it seems like we have a plan and we're sticking to it. But at the same time, I wonder if they accounted for the type of environment they are dealing with when creating that plan, which is critical if they want to succeed.



Yeah, this is it right here. When we talk about RSL the thing that seems to be the most important is that they designed a plan around American and Latin American players - players they knew they could get.

So now TFC go out and sign two more European DPs. I still think TFC will get good enough to finish in the top ten but not much past that.

[Oldtimer]

The use of RSL and Columbus as examples of why we should stick with Winter is bogus. I've checked the stats and if you look at both Kreis and Schmid's first seasons, Winter will have to get 12 points from 14 games to match Kreis and 17 from 14 to match Schmid. Considering how home loaded the schedule has been I'm not confident it will happen. This is all based on points per game.

It's not based on the scores this season, that's what you have to understand. Comparing levels of suckitude during a rebuilding year is fruitless. It has nothing to do with where the team will end up.

The point is that we won't know until next season whether or not Winter has worked out, at the earliest.

Even if his stats are worse this season, it is no indicator. His team has been missing a target man, and that is essential to the 4-3-3 formation. One could argue that he has had a harder job than Kreis had.

Anyways, I am 100% confident that this board would have been screaming for Kreis to be fired in 2007 if RSL had been our team. And this board would have been 100% wrong.

[Oldtimer]

Correlation does not mean causation. Sucking right now only means that we suck; it does not mean that we’re in-line to improve in the future. For every Jason Kreis, there is a Ruud Gullit, for every Sigi Schmid there is a Carlos de los Cabos.


You get it. Yes, we have no idea if Winter will work out, and we cannot know at this point if he will work out. We can only be confident that it is highly unlikely to make the playoffs in 2011, something I said at the beginning of the system.

Firing Winter at this point would be fruitless, though. That would only guarantee yet another rebuilding year where we will suck. It seems that's what people want. I hope that ML$E doesn't panic and do that.

[ExiledRed]

It's not based on the scores this season, that's what you have to understand. Comparing levels of suckitude during a rebuilding year is fruitless. It has nothing to do with where the team will end up.

The point is that we won't know until next season whether or not Winter has worked out, at the earliest.

What you are saying is that every move winter has made, every cockup, lost player, ineffectual new player and devastating loss is all part of a calculated plan.

I call bullshit.

The guy has no idea what is happening around him.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/tsunami.jpg

[ExiledRed]

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/g20.jpg

[J .]

109 people drank the kool aid. Where can I get that cup of optimism?

TFC has shown very, very little and to say a team has to get worse to get better in MLS is bullshit. It is a sentiment rooted in North American culture based on a handful of teams from other pro leagues that do not have the depth of talent available that a world wide sport like soccer does.

Winter has until the end of the transfer window if the massive multi goal losses continue then there is no way he can stick around. This is mostly his team and while MLSE shit the bed hiring a guy they were going to hire back in October (Thanks for spending our money on JK). The entire attack is Winters additions and his system is costing us points and producing pathetic results.

In MLS there is no need for a thing such as rebuilding and the teams that rebuild tend to suck for a very long time when its proven that a coach, such as Nowak, Schmid and Backe and so on, CAN produce a solid club and not be simple one and dones as people claim that team that sneaks into the playoffs does.

Teams that tend to 'sneak' in have done pretty well in the past...

[tiberius]

....

The guy has no idea what is happening around him.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/tsunami.jpg

Fantastic pics of Winter! Could we possibly put Tom anselmi in there instead? He is the real culprit in this cocked up mess!! ... (OK Mo might have had something to do with it too...)

[Beach_Red]

You get it. Yes, we have no idea if Winter will work out, and we cannot know at this point if he will work out. We can only be confident that it is highly unlikely to make the playoffs in 2011, something I said at the beginning of the system.

Firing Winter at this point would be fruitless, though. That would only guarantee yet another rebuilding year where we will suck. It seems that's what people want. I hope that ML$E doesn't panic and do that.

Yes, firing Winter would be pointless, he's just the guy implementing the plan, he's just doing what he's told.

But people aren't just upset at the won-lost stats, there's much more analysis going on here that that. Sure, people might have been just as upset with Kreiss but it would depend on how he communicated his rebuilding plan. There's a good chance people were more patient with a guy who'd spent so long in MLS because they believed he knew the league and what was required to win and gave a sense of improving as the season progressed.

Maybe if Winter or someone at TFC would explain why they think this particular system is the best one to win in MLS people would have a little more faith in their long-term plan. But really, all they've said so far is, "Trust us." Let's hope they picked the right system.

[ExiledRed]

I didnt do Anselmi in there because the point behind the series, is that Winter doesnt seem to have a clue what's coming.

It doesnt look like he researches the other teams and adapts strategies accordingly, Its almost like he stubbornly 'sticks to the plan' in the belief that once his system is working in 2013, the other teams will instead have to adapt to us.

He stands there on the line, dithering while the other coaches are rallying their troops and figuring us out. What is he thinking?

The tsunami/train/g20 police/explosion/charging rhino are all metaphors for the big defeats he doesnt seem to see coming.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/oliphants.jpg

[tiberius]

You get it. Yes, we have no idea if Winter will work out, and we cannot know at this point if he will work out. We can only be confident that it is highly unlikely to make the playoffs in 2011, something I said at the beginning of the system.

Firing Winter at this point would be fruitless, though. That would only guarantee yet another rebuilding year where we will suck. It seems that's what people want. I hope that ML$E doesn't panic and do that.

Oltimer is bang on - the 109 koolaid drinkers will be the first in line to fire Winter if we are not lining up for a playoff spot by May 2012. The two DPs is a great sign - if they can contribute this year, and the team has a better 2nd half to the season, that is all that is neccessary - this year. The franchise will be in for several years of hurt and hardship if they don't produce next year...

[ExiledRed]

Oltimer is bang on - the 109 koolaid drinkers will be the first in line to fire Winter if we are not lining up for a playoff spot by May 2012.

Or alternatively, smugly telling everybody that they knew what was happening all along, told you so.

Again its bull.

If Winter makes the playoffs next season, it will not be because of a single thing he did before the first 20 games were up.

If however, people were expecting Winter to 'learn from his mistakes' and need to 'ease in' then I can see where they were coming from. Sure the guy could very well learn from his mistakes and go on to be a great coach.

We were promised a proven leader and the finest management however, not a green rookie with no clue of his adversaries or environment.

[J .]

Oltimer is bang on - the 109 koolaid drinkers will be the first in line to fire Winter if we are not lining up for a playoff spot by May 2012. The two DPs is a great sign - if they can contribute this year, and the team has a better 2nd half to the season, that is all that is neccessary - this year. The franchise will be in for several years of hurt and hardship if they don't produce next year...

Havent the past 4 1/2 years been hurt and hardship? MLSE should have paid Sigi a ton of money and stepped as far away from the situation as possible. I suggest the 109 start looking at results as an indicator of progress. If the current trend continues, I fail to see how losing brings a winning mentality.

This team cannot defend, score or keep possession, aside from losing, what is their identity?

[J .]

Or alternatively, smugly telling everybody that they knew what was happening all along, told you so.

Again its bull.

If Winter makes the playoffs next season, it will not be because of a single thing he did before the first 20 games were up.

If however, people were expecting Winter to 'learn from his mistakes' and need to 'ease in' then I can see where they were coming from. Sure the guy could very well learn from his mistakes and go on to be a great coach.

We were promised a proven leader and the finest management however, not a green rookie with no clue of his adversaries or environment.


agreed 100%

[tiberius]

I didnt do Anselmi in there because the point behind the series, is that Winter doesnt seem to have a clue what's coming.

....

The tsunami/train/g20 police/explosion/charging rhino are all metaphors for the big defeats he doesnt seem to see coming.

Sure, I understand your point - the pictures and the irony are great!

In general, I think Winter knew that the current drab situation was a distinct possibility - that is why he signed a three year deal. It allows him to concentrate on the long term - it also allows him some time to learn to coach and manage, especially in this league - not a simple task... The die is cast - Winter will be here next spring as long as he doesn't piss off the people around him like Michael Corleone (Priki) did. There is no Tsunami or herd of buffalo that will carry Winter off - no matter how much you wish for it. For the long term good of the club, it would be far more beneficial for Tommy Anselmi to disappear...

[tiberius]

Havent the past 4 1/2 years been hurt and hardship? MLSE should have paid Sigi a ton of money and stepped as far away from the situation as possible. I suggest the 109 start looking at results as an indicator of progress. If the current trend continues, I fail to see how losing brings a winning mentality.

This team cannot defend, score or keep possession, aside from losing, what is their identity?

Yes, we have had 4 1/2 years of pain, hardship and torture - I just don't want to have another 4 1/2 years because we were impatient - we have to ride out this season to see if there is a light at the end of the tunnel... If we don't ride it out, I am positive there will be only darkness next year... and the year after... and the ....

I must admit that if neither of these new DP's work out, there will be next to nobody who will buy a ticket to BMO or watch TFC on TV, for a very long time... so my one year time horizon (of patience) could actually be shortened if the ghost of Mista returns during the summer of 2011...

[tiberius]

What you are saying is that every move winter has made, every cockup, lost player, ineffectual new player and devastating loss is all part of a calculated plan.

I call bullshit...


No bullshit - I think you get it now Exile - here is the plan:

1. sign Winter to 3 years
2. allow him to "cock up", lose players, obtain ineffectual players, have devastating losses
3. allow him to develop as a manager, figure out how to manage the MLS salary cap, move unhelpful players out, move helpful players in, sign some decent DPs, concentrate on the long term
4. evaluate in May 2012

Given the current situation, no quick fixes - like dumping Winter are going to help the team...

[ExiledRed]

Yes, we have had 4 1/2 years of pain, hardship and torture - I just don't want to have another 4 1/2 years because we were impatient - we have to ride out this season to see if there is a light at the end of the tunnel... If we don't ride it out, I am positive there will be only darkness next year... and the year after... and the ....

I must admit that if neither of these new DP's work out, there will be next to nobody who will buy a ticket to BMO or watch TFC on TV, for a very long time... so my one year time horizon could actually be shortened if the ghost of Mista returns during the summer of 2011...

My fear is that we'll get 4 more years of futility becuase we put too much faith in an overhyped rookie.

We could replace him now, and spend the rest of the season dicking around and 'rebuilding' then we might actually be ready at the start of next season for a change.

[jazzy]

[QUOTE=ExiledRed;1336386]What you are saying is that every move winter has made, every cockup, lost player, ineffectual new player and devastating loss is all part of a calculated plan.

I call bullshit.

The guy has no idea what is happening around him.


???
the answer then is jump ship and panic.......thank god this thought process is impotent, or there would simply chaos, and might as well let it sink......dumb and against all rational........love to see all the armchair critics criticized as such at their work.........sales are falling because of you, or whatever, you have no idea what is happening around you...you can't sell this piece of garbage because you are inadequate...........please....weird definition of support......who the f##k would want to come here with this attitude AND the other teams are using our tension to pressure our team at home, as well as we are losing whatever respect we once had as supporters.....we are not the leaders anymore.

[J .]

Yes, we have had 4 1/2 years of pain, hardship and torture - I just don't want to have another 4 1/2 years because we were impatient - we have to ride out this season to see if there is a light at the end of the tunnel... If we don't ride it out, I am positive there will be only darkness next year... and the year after... and the ....

I must admit that if neither of these new DP's work out, there will be next to nobody who will buy a ticket to BMO or watch TFC on TV, for a very long time... so my one year time horizon could actually be shortened if the ghost of Mista returns during the summer of 2011...


What constitutes light at the end of the tunnel? Where people are calling for patience, I demand results. TFC isnt an expansion side and there are good MLS players on the team.

The ideological adherence to playing "attacking" football? Why have we had in 4/5 seasons unproven attacking coaches?

If the team was battling 3-2, 2-1's 3-3 matches I would be unhappy, but at least there was something. However, the amount of massive losses, being tactically outclassed and general malaise, especially when playing at home, for me is unacceptable.

They are not just losing, they are losing without any dignity on the field and that is unacceptable.

[ExiledRed]

so the plan then is jump ship and panic.......thank god this thought process is impotent, or there would simply chaos, and might as well let it sink......dumb and against all rational........love to see all the armchair critics so criticized as such at their work.........sales are falling because of you, or whatever, you have no idea what is happening around you...you can't sell this piece of garbage because you are inadequate...........please....weird definition of support......who the f##k would want to come here with this attitude AND the other teams are using our tension to pressure our team at home, as well as we are losing whatever respect we once had as supporters.....we are not the leaders anymore.

The plan is not to jump ship and panic.

what thought process is impotent?

What is your definition of chaos, in comparison to the current state of affairs?

who is dumb and irrational?

what does :
"love to see all the armchair critics so criticized as such at their work........." - actually mean?

What is your definition of support? and how do you ascertain mine from the above posts?

who is selling garbage? and to whom? and why are they unsuccesful?

Was this:



"who the f##k would want to come here with this attitude AND the other teams are using our tension to pressure our team at home,"


two different sentences that somehow got smushed together and no longer makes any sense?

Sorry if Im damaging your fragile little ego as well, I like that you blame me for the loss of support, and not the fucking awful product on the pitch and four years of futility. Welcome to my ignore list.

[pdogg]

No bullshit - I think you get it now Exile - here is the plan:

1. sign Winter to 3 years
2. allow him to "cock up", lose players, obtain ineffectual players, have devastating losses
3. allow him to develop as a manager, figure out how to manage the MLS salary cap, move unhelpful players out, move helpful players in, sign some decent DPs, concentrate on the long term
4. evaluate in May 2012

Given the current situation, no quick fixes - like dumping Winter are going to help the team...

I agree - the team needs stability - we can ill afford to have yet another coaching change this year. It reflects poorly on the organization, it throws away any work that is going on (we have 3 DPs that the new coach may not even want!).

In trying to get a new coach, who would want to come here knowing that management has a twitchy trigger finger and could fire you in your first season? Why would players even try to buy into a system knowing the coach could be gone in 6-8 months?

Unfortunately, with all the changes in the past, we are now stuck with Winter, for better or worse for this season - and I believe all of next season too. If he makes it half way through next season he will be our longest running coach . Players will have played the same system for longer than they have ever before in a tfc uniform.

[ExiledRed]

No bullshit - I think you get it now Exile - here is the plan:

1. sign Winter to 3 years
2. allow him to "cock up", lose players, obtain ineffectual players, have devastating losses
3. allow him to develop as a manager, figure out how to manage the MLS salary cap, move unhelpful players out, move helpful players in, sign some decent DPs, concentrate on the long term
4. evaluate in May 2012

Given the current situation, no quick fixes - like dumping Winter are going to help the team...

What you are saying is give him a year to learn the job.

What Ive been saying since October, is "we need someone with a proven track record who doesnt have to learn on the job"

[Beach_Red]

They are not just losing, they are losing without any dignity on the field and that is unacceptable.

This is why it's so hard to see the "long-term" plan coming into shape any time soon. The players here aren't being respected at all. Are they really that bad? Will the next players who come here be that much better? MLS is a parity league, the skill levels between most of the players isn't that great.

The guys on TFC people complain about the most will get traded to other teams, fit into their systems better and do fine. Colorado won the Cup with Marvel Wynne - if he was still here all we'd hear after every game is what a terrible player he is, how he's always out of position and relies on athleticism because he doesn't read the game well enough. Well, it's that kind of league, so Colorado designed a system that makes use of guys like Marvel Wynne because those are the kinds of guys MLS teams can sign to long-term contracts.

Ty Harden will end up back in LA or somewhere like that and the team will win a lot of games because instead of complaining about their roster they'll design a system that works well with the players they can get.

[tiberius]

My fear is that we'll get 4 more years of futility becuase we put too much faith in an overhyped rookie.

We could replace him now, and spend the rest of the season dicking around and 'rebuilding' then we might actually be ready at the start of next season for a change.

I have the same fears you do - and you are right - we could replace Winter now. But based on the horrendous track record of Tommy Anselmi and the crew under him, I just think the likelihood of the Toronto FC organization getting it right the next time is about 6% - little more than a random shot at the dart board... I give Winter, de Klerk and Mariner at least a 25% chance that they can make something good happen next year. Both are crappy odds - neither option leaves a good taste in my mouth - I am just choosing the least of two evils!
:cheers:

[Heathen]

It's not based on the scores this season, that's what you have to understand. Comparing levels of suckitude during a rebuilding year is fruitless. It has nothing to do with where the team will end up.

The point is that we won't know until next season whether or not Winter has worked out, at the earliest.

Even if his stats are worse this season, it is no indicator. His team has been missing a target man, and that is essential to the 4-3-3 formation. One could argue that he has had a harder job than Kreis had.

Anyways, I am 100% confident that this board would have been screaming for Kreis to be fired in 2007 if RSL had been our team. And this board would have been 100% wrong.

Sorry but every result counts, I'm sick of people writing of this game, that game even the whole season "Oh well it's a rebuilding season we're allowed to be shit". No that's crap, sure we'll lose more than we win but seriously if Winter was right now the coach you all seem to think he is we should not be this bad.
Kreis was a 35 year old rookie coach when he took over, if we'd been getting the same I'd be more inclined to go along with the give him time argument especially given his knowledge and experience in MLS. Winter was sold as some kind of coaching genius from Ajax, when it was pointed out he'd never actually held a top job himself we were accused of being negative. The fact he's been continually outcoached by almost every MLS coach he's come up against shows he's been an even bigger gamble than Kreis was for RSL in 07.

[ag futbol]

I agree - the team needs stability - we can ill afford to have yet another coaching change this year. It reflects poorly on the organization, it throws away any work that is going on (we have 3 DPs that the new coach may not even want!).

Ah yes, but is lack of success due to a lack of stability, or is our lack or stability due to a lack of success?

http://webwarriortools.com/images/ebooks/email-zen.jpg

[tiberius]

...

What Ive been saying since October, is "we need someone with a proven track record who doesnt have to learn on the job"

That would be nice - Yes!

How about someone who has won the MLS Cup? Someone who played for years in Europe? Someone who has also played several years in MLS? Somebody with over 7 years of coaching/management experience in the MLS?

Unfortunately, I don't think you will be able to get Mo to come back here...:)

Lets face it - the chances of Tommy A. finding a better coaching/management team than Winter, de Klerk and Mariner are somewhere between slim and none. That guy can't find his own ass with two hands and a flashlight! On top of that, who the hell would want to work in this nut house? Don't tell me you are a Teitur tot?

[ag futbol]

Unfortunately, I don't think you will be able to get Mo to come back here...:)

Johnston only gets to be an example of having a "bad" track record, not what he's talking about.

Edit: Although, I agree it is the ultimate irony that Mo has MLS experience.

[Whoop]

Even if his stats are worse this season, it is no indicator. His team has been missing a target man, and that is essential to the 4-3-3 formation. One could argue that he has had a harder job than Kreis had.


But why play the 4-3-3 if you don't have the players for it, especially early on?

One of the great strengths of a good coach is adaptability.

[Whoop]

They are not just losing, they are losing without any dignity on the field and that is unacceptable.

This.

I'm not one for "moral victories" but if it's a "rebuilding" year at least give me that.

[ensco]

I'm curious, what exactly did Winter do in the interviews with MLSE that would have convinced them to overlook his thin resume? It's hard to imagine him interviewing well, based on his press conferences.

Was there a real interview?

Is Winter there only because he's Klinsmann's friend, and because Cochrane screwed up the Dero/Celtic thing so badly that thre was no other option, and they were out of time?

Just random questions, sipping a cold one on a dock on a summer weekend....

[J .]

Sorry but every result counts, I'm sick of people writing of this game, that game even the whole season "Oh well it's a rebuilding season we're allowed to be shit". No that's crap, sure we'll lose more than we win but seriously if Winter was right now the coach you all seem to think he is we should not be this bad.
Kreis was a 35 year old rookie coach when he took over, if we'd been getting the same I'd be more inclined to go along with the give him time argument especially given his knowledge and experience in MLS. Winter was sold as some kind of coaching genius from Ajax, when it was pointed out he'd never actually held a top job himself we were accused of being negative. The fact he's been continually outcoached by almost every MLS coach he's come up against shows he's been an even bigger gamble than Kreis was for RSL in 07.


BAM, fact

[ExiledRed]

Unfortunately, I don't think you will be able to get Mo to come back here...:)


Mo doesnt have a proven track record. He's actually proven to be a failure wherever he's coached.

It was fine four years ago to give him a chance.

Its not fine four years later to give someone completely unfamiliar with the league and even less experience, the same chance.

[ag futbol]

I'm curious, what exactly did Winter do in the interviews with MLSE that would have convinced them to overlook his thin resume? It's hard to imagine him interviewing well, based on his press conferences.

Was there a real interview?

Is Winter there only because he's Klinsmann's friend, and because Cochrane screwed up the Dero/Celtic thing so badly that thre was no other option, and they were out of time?

Just random questions, sipping a cold one on a dock on a summer weekend....
Well what i wonder is (given the amount of time it took them to go through the whole process) was Winter actually their first choice and did MLSE cost considerations ever come into the equation?

[Roogsy]

Mo doesnt have a proven track record. He's actually proven to be a failure wherever he's coached.

It was fine four years ago to give him a chance.

Its not fine four years later to give someone completely unfamiliar with the league and even less experience, the same chance.

This. This is it exactly. Why did we make the exact same mistake we did with Mo? Both the team and the fans. The team for hiring someone with no real evidence he knew what he was doing. The fans for giving him their blind faith before he proved anything.

[tiberius]

I'm curious, what exactly did Winter do in the interviews with MLSE that would have convinced them to overlook his thin resume? It's hard to imagine him interviewing well, based on his press conferences.

Was there a real interview?

Is Winter there only because he's Klinsmann's friend, and because Cochrane screwed up the Dero/Celtic thing so badly that thre was no other option, and they were out of time?

Just random questions, sipping a cold one on a dock on a summer weekend....

I vote for the "running out of time" option, but perhaps you can peek into Tommy's A's diary to find the answer... :)

[Davenport]

This.

I'm not one for "moral victories" but if it's a "rebuilding" year at least give me that.

To rebuild something it must have first been built then it either broke or was destroyed.
This was never built. Just fookin well build it.

[ExiledRed]

I'm curious, what exactly did Winter do in the interviews with MLSE that would have convinced them to overlook his thin resume? It's hard to imagine him interviewing well, based on his press conferences.

Was there a real interview?

Is Winter there only because he's Klinsmann's friend, and because Cochrane screwed up the Dero/Celtic thing so badly that thre was no other option, and they were out of time?

Just random questions, sipping a cold one on a dock on a summer weekend....

Truly, these are baffling questions arent they?

Maybe it went like this.

"so how do you think you'll adapt to the fact that other than DeGuzman, your entire squad will be making less than you did in any month during the nineties?"

"errrrrrrrr..........tis pity, because players are players and sometimes....errrrrr make less money and sometimes make more money"

"OK, so do you think you'll be able to work within the confines of the salary cap to build a competetive squad"

"errrrrrrrr....... tings sometimes take time, and with patience.... errrrrrr... over time tings will get better and start to errrrrr come together"

"Aron, we need quick results because weve been poor for too long and the fans are starting to drop off, but we also need to start developing the identity and culture of this team for the future... how will your leadership influence this process and reconcile these two goals?"

"errrrrr........ at Ajax, we have system and errrr...... the younger players they start with system, but i tink.... errrrrr.... i can build a team that plays football and can er.....pass the ball and try to score goals......maybe errrr.... we can hope, more than two."

[menefreghista]

I'm curious, what exactly did Winter do in the interviews with MLSE that would have convinced them to overlook his thin resume? It's hard to imagine him interviewing well, based on his press conferences.

Was there a real interview?

Is Winter there only because he's Klinsmann's friend, and because Cochrane screwed up the Dero/Celtic thing so badly that thre was no other option, and they were out of time?

Just random questions, sipping a cold one on a dock on a summer weekend....

These are some really interesting questions.

I remember right before Winter and Mariner were hired there were rumours that Cochrane was acatualy going to get the job, with Dasovic retained as coach. I believe it was Rollins (or some other CSN reporter) that came out with that story. I wonder if they seriously considered Cochrane and were just throwing out a trial balloon to see if the fanbase would except it. But then did the Celtic/DeRo thing push MLSE to make a move?

Was Winter/Mariner the contingency plan?

[tiberius]

This. This is it exactly. Why did we make the exact same mistake we did with Mo? Both the team and the fans. The team for hiring someone with no real evidence he knew what he was doing. The fans for giving him their blind faith before he proved anything.

Can't argue with you Roogsy - history repeats itself - proven fact - only difference I can see is that Winter will only get one year of rope, not four...

OK I am now convinced by all of the Winter beaters - Can someone rummage around the dustbin of unemployed MLS Coaches and find one with a resume that has great MLS record, proven leader, walks on water etc... He also must be prepared to live in an igloo, wear plaid shirts and get paid in Canadian Dollars.

I am tired of all this standing around, lets just get that coach that is guaranteed to give us the cup - What the Hell are we waiting for!! No more whining - give me names and numbers - I will phone them myself!

[Roogsy]

I thought that was what Klinnsman was hired to do?

Maybe we should ask him what kind of list, if any, he had from which Winter was chosen?

Because surely in the very, very big world of Football, surely a rookie who has never coached a senior team can't be your only choice? Coach movements happen everywhere on this planet but TFC had but one coach to choose from?

[menefreghista]

To me the timelines show an organization that doesn't like making tough decisions.

Sep. 14/10 - Mo + Preki fired
Nov. 3/10 - Klinsmann announced as consultant
Jan. 6/11 - Winter + Mariner formally introduced

I wonder what leeway Cochrane was given. He traded our 1st round pick, dropped a lot of players, renogatiated contracts. Was he told to run the team like he was in charge? Or to make way for the new team?

[jazzy]

The plan is not to jump ship and panic.

what thought process is impotent?

What is your definition of chaos, in comparison to the current state of affairs?

who is dumb and irrational?

what does :
"love to see all the armchair critics so criticized as such at their work........." - actually mean?

What is your definition of support? and how do you ascertain mine from the above posts?

who is selling garbage? and to whom? and why are they unsuccesful?

Was this:



two different sentences that somehow got smushed together and no longer makes any sense?

Sorry if Im damaging your fragile little ego as well, I like that you blame me for the loss of support, and not the fucking awful product on the pitch and four years of futility. Welcome to my ignore list.

my ego uh?....no but I do find joy in supporting a team.. ..and all it involves.......yet you take the time to write about this awful product??
not blaming you in particular, just reading whats said,.. the constant harsh non constructive diatribe.....put yourself in his shoes or deros' for that mind and maybe the drivel will come to you ...and as for the ignore list ouch,......!another one bites the dust!..someone who is not supporting the team at hand, ignoring me.....damn,.. again, glad your not making any decisions on the field,..let me say it simpler, everything of quality takes time and patience.....I think it must suck to be a caring athelete in TO.......next time I'll write a beautifully linguistic articulation to try and reach your extremely advanced hyperbole......btw it'll be a while before we win

[tiberius]

Sorry if Im damaging your fragile little ego as well, I like that you blame me for the loss of support, and not the fucking awful product on the pitch and four years of futility. Welcome to my ignore list.

Ouch - Ego alert! Ego Alert! ExiledRed - your ego is showing big time!! As if we care about your wonderful ignore list??? Come on.......:)

Nobody blames you for the last 4.5 years of futility. No one. That is all Anselmi and MO - no question from anyone on the boards about that one. You appear to want to throw Winter under the bus - OK. But getting Joe Shmoe Coach in at this point seems beyond effing ridiculous. If you have a realistic name of a coach or a management team that realistically might come to Toronto - spit it out so we can tear it apart! :D Otherwise perhap you should st*u and wait 'til next season to say "I told ya so..."

[ExiledRed]

Ouch - Ego alert! Ego Alert! ExiledRed - your ego is showing big time!! As if we care about your wonderful ignore list??? Come on.......:)

You're smoking crack, you should stick to the stuff we shared at the montreal game. :)

The ego comment was related to jazzy's claim that we're not able to be the biggest and loudest and baddest supporters anymore.

I told him I was ignoring him, because his post was crap and I didnt want to read another one. Not because I was showing off...jeez. You have to admit it..... as far as posts go, that was a badly written mess that didnt make much sense.

[ag futbol]

OK I am now convinced by all of the Winter beaters - Can someone rummage around the dustbin of unemployed MLS Coaches and find one with a resume that has great MLS record, proven leader, walks on water etc... He also must be prepared to live in an igloo, wear plaid shirts and get paid in Canadian Dollars.

Lol! Well I think you'll find that a lot of people who are critical of Winter aren't actually into firing him as of yet. My point thus far would be that 1) performance hasn't been good 2) he is accountable for that performance one way or another. Willing to give him until the end of the 2012 season unless this year continues on at a cluster-fuck pace.

As for your MLS coach washout list... interesting names some of which may not be available: Steve Morrow, Bob Bradley (should be available soon, ahah), Colin Clarke, Sasho Cirovski (no "MLS" experience but very well regarded).

[ExiledRed]

Nobody blames you for the last 4.5 years of futility. No one.

yeah, the question of blame was about jazzy's accusation that supporters like me apparently being the reason BMO is empty, and Portland has more impressive supporters or something. This is all despite the fact that my Season tickets gets used every single game, and when I am able to come to the games I scream like a motherfucker and get right behind the boys on the field, and anyone in 112 knows that, (even if they know also im often out of tune and drunk as a twat) you cant deny my supportership or anybody elses based on their opinion of the current coach.



That is all Anselmi and MO - no question from anyone on the boards about that one. You appear to want to throw Winter under the bus - OK. But getting Joe Shmoe Coach in at this point seems beyond effing ridiculous.

Yeah its not quite where im at though. Im quite happy to write off the playoffs at this point, let Winter learn the ropes and experiment anxd get rewarded by the league for finishing last.
Winter's being evaluated on the CL now, Winter has to bet Esteli and he has to do well in the group matches. This is actually a lot more achievable a goal than the playoffs ever were, and he is deep enough into his tenure to be able to take full responsibility for the teams shape and performance.

The earlier remark about getting a new coach in right now, was just to illustrate that its sometimes a better idea to do it mid season than two months into the off season.



If you have a realistic name of a coach or a management team that realistically might come to Toronto - spit it out so we can tear it apart! :D Otherwise perhap you should st*u and wait 'til next season to say "I told ya so..."

now now, be nice.

[Whoop]

I vote for the "running out of time" option, but perhaps you can peek into Tommy's A's diary to find the answer... :)

They did wait long enough.

[Roogsy]

Firing Winter at this point would be fruitless, though. That would only guarantee yet another rebuilding year where we will suck. It seems that's what people want. I hope that ML$E doesn't panic and do that.

Really? Who wants him fired?

Despite the incredibly inept season we've had so far, even most of the "debbie downers" say that he should stay one more season. But the blind-faithers keep coming out with this patently false allegation.

[pdogg]

Ah yes, but is lack of success due to a lack of stability, or is our lack or stability due to a lack of success?


There's only one way to find out. We've had no success and no stability. One of those is easy to change. If we remain unsuccessful, then it doesn't matter if the coach remains or not because both states - stability and instability have given us a lack of success.

:D

[torontocelt]

Really? Who wants him fired?

Despite the incredibly inept season we've had so far, even most of the "debbie downers" say that he should stay one more season. But the blind-faithers keep coming out with this patently false allegation.

In fairness I would give him between now and the end of the season and if he does not start picking up more points with the advantage of three DP's in his squad then I would call quits on him as head coach and move him upstairs to developing the youth academy.

[Roogsy]

That was only 4 games, Roogsy. In a 30 game season (which is what they had in 2007), that means he coached 26 of them. If you are going to do that, then please start Winter's clock in 2012.

2007 was the rebuilding year. He rebuilt most of the team in that year, getting rid of a lot of top talent like the league's top scorer (Cunningham to Toronto), Freddy Adu (who had a much bigger reputation than he has now), USMNT player Chris Klein, and Mehdi Ballouchy (who now plays for New York), and also replacing a lot of other players. People thought he was nuts.

He brought in a lot of new players, some who worked out, some who didn't. They didn't gell and looked absolutely terrible that season. Believe me, no one looking at that team, myself included, saw that MLS Cup down the road.

So if Winter gets us into the playoffs in 2012, he will be right on track.


Really? Let's look at the facts again.

Of the 3 coaches, in their respective years where they took over the team, which ones:

Started in early January and had 2 and half months to prepare teams?

Backe and Winter
Not Kreis

Had access to the January 15 transfer window?

Backe and Winter
Not Kreis

Had blank slate rosters and weren't saddled with a majority roster from the previous regime.

Backe and Winter
Not Kreis

Had a DP on their roster that they had an option to release but decided to retain.

Backe and Winter
Not Kreis

These are undeniable facts. And you look at this and STILL say that NY is not a better comparison than RSL? Based on what facts? The only similarity between TFC this year and RSL appears to be our wins and losses. That's just about it. In every other comparable way, RSL's example is a set of much different circumstances.

Kreis took over mid-season and had to wait for a Transfer Window half-way through the season. He had a complete roster that was not his and was not able to make changes until the MIDSEASON transfer window and the following offseason, both Backe and Winter did not have that disadvantage.

But I will give you this. Despite these disadvantages, neither Kreis nor Backe lost in their first season by more than 2 goals in any game. None of them suffered a game where their team gave up 6 goals, let alone at home. And none of them had a goal differential that even comes close to approaching what TFC has achieved so far this season. Toronto holds these dubious records all by ourselves.

On a pro-rated basis, TFC is having a worse season than RSL had in 2007.

The truth is that at this point, there is no exact comparison to TFC because no team has been this poor for this long in MLS ever.

But if we're going to compare TFC to RSL, then TFC had better also give their fans an MLS Cup in the near future or TFC fails both against the NY comparison and the RSL comparison.

[Roogsy]

In fairness I would give him between now and the end of the season and if he does not start picking up more points with the advantage of three DP's in his squad then I would call quits on him as head coach and move him upstairs to developing the youth academy.


Fair enough. To be honest, MOST soccer clubs in the world don't give inept coaches TWO full seasons. At least, not the successful or ambitious clubs.

But suffice to say you are not calling for his firing yet? Which is of course OT's contention.

[DichioTFC]

Inspired by ExiledRed:

http://i54.tinypic.com/2r62mn4.png

[DichioTFC]

http://i54.tinypic.com/1r96hk.png

[Jeff s]

Cant this idiot just change the formation already? IT ISN'T WORKING!. Look at the record, isn't this enough evidence he needs to change some things?

[Roogsy]

It would have been interesting to see what the poll numbers would have been after the last 2 games. :rolleyes:

[ExiledRed]

Cant this idiot just change the formation already? IT ISN'T WORKING!. Look at the record, isn't this enough evidence he needs to change some things?

Dont you see?

The system requires 4-3-3

We need to play 4-3-3 but poor Winter doesnt have the right players....what is he to do?

Its ludicrous to suggest that for any specific game we adapt to the opposition and play a 3-5-2 or a 4-4-2 so we can play to the strengths of the players we have available, and have some kind of answer to the opposition's strategy.

[ExiledRed]

and John, I know what you'd say about 4-3-3 being the base form of 4-3-1-2 and 4-2-3-1 etc.... but the 'spine' was never available to implement it, and you've admitted it.

So far it was all a pointless experiment that's only served to expose the weakness of the NCAA and MLS calibre player. Its done nothing to progress the first team towards good results at all.

[Oldtimer]

People attack ML$E for the Leafs losing every year; they are stupid in many ways, but they are smart in that they are doing exactly what the fans want them to do.

Fans are fed up with over 40 years of not winning anything and want to see immediate "progress."
ML$E needs to sell season tickets to serve their pension board masters, so they can't take a long-term view.

So:

* They trade draft picks and youth in order to at least get into the playoffs (as if that's the goal) to show their season ticket base that they are serious about winning, and they are "making progress."

* The trades are for aging "stars" who, while not a long-term solution, give the team a chance of making the first round of the playoffs.

* Sometimes these "stars" work out, more often they are too old and injury-prone.

* Over 40 years of frustration shows the stupidity of this approach, but they have to do this in order to keep sales up. They have no choice, at least until Teachers sells their stake.

With TFC, Mo played this game perfectly, and in 2009 used up all of his allocation money to pay down the cap and try to make a push for the playoffs. If it had worked, people would have seen "progress" and been happy. It failed when the team layed down in New York on the last game of the season.

It was unsustainable (the cap would come back to bite the team in 2010), but was typical ML$E modus operandi. Mo was the ideal ML$E guy, that's why he lasted so long.

Now, ML$E has decided to take a longer-term view with their soccer club. (They can afford to do it, as the team is not that significant in terms of revenue, and the payoffs from the academy are potentially huge).

Why I voted "yes" to approving of Winter's job so far was because I saw the following:

* The team is using youth as a basis for the team, not aging stars. TFC is the youngest team in the league.

* Young players are the ideal basis for using the 4-3-3 formation. You can train younger players, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

* Winter & Mariner are supplementing the team with a good sprinkling of quality DP experience to teach the lads how to play well.

* They are avoiding the temptation to "win now." I honestly thought all along that Winter was not really trying to win this season. Of course he couldn't say that, because no-one would buy tickets, but anyone who thought TFC had a good chance of making the playoffs was unrealistic.

Why I don't wholeheartedly susbscribe that Winter is the solution is that he is showing some tactical naivetivity. The good side is that he is showing signs of learning the league, and has been modifying the strict Dutch style into something more appropriate for North America. It won't show results until he gets the spine worked out (hopefully the two DP signings will provide 2/3 of the spine, he still needs a quality player to marshall the defense). It may even fail. But Winter is doing exactly what one would want in order to actually become a quality team. Let's hope that the team he assembles will make up for any tactical deficiencies Winter has. Kreis learned on the job, as well. It may blow up into something horrible... or it may work out beautifully. Time will tell.

Wanting to fire Winter now to "show some results" is playing exactly into the traditional Toronto sports-fan model. Let's hope the pressure doesn't cause Winter to emulate our friends the Leafs.

[menefreghista]

Oldtimer, your argument falls apart with the Frings and Koevermans signings. Those aren't moves made to win in the future. Those are moves to win today.

Not that I disagree with signing these 2 DPs. I am always in favour of adding talent, mostly because I think long term rebuilding in MLS is a fools game.

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer, your argument falls apart with the Frings and Koevermans signings. Those aren't moves made to win in the future. Those are moves to win today.

Not that I disagree with signing these 2 DPs. I am always in favour of adding talent, mostly because I think long term rebuilding in MLS is a fools game.

Except that any team that has done well long-term has taken over a year to rebuild.

RSL took 2 years. So the the Krew.

It doesn't take 3-4 years like hockey, but it certainly takes more than 1/2 a season. You want to "win now?" Welcome to Leafs 2.0.

BTW, I consider our two DP signings to be exactly the "sprinkling" of quality talent that we need. Especially Frings is a player who will teach the players heart.

[Pookie]

A young team needs leadership though and while Frings and Koevermans are older, their additions can be seen as complimentary to the goal of long term development and culture change.

If if was all about win now, we'd be trading youth for veterans

[menefreghista]

It doesn't take 3-4 years like hockey, but it certainly takes more than 1/2 a season. You want to "win now?" Welcome to Leafs 2.0.

I don't think TFC needs to 'win now'.

But I also don't think they should be THIS bad.

[menefreghista]

If if was all about win now, we'd be trading youth for veterans

We don't even have much youth other teams would want for veterans.

Just because a team is young doesn't mean it has a bright future.

Besides, its not our youth that is the problem, its mostly the talent on our 20-man senior roster.

[Oldtimer]

^ Youth doesn't tend to show it's potential right away, that is the nature of youth. Sure they aren't good (no argument there), but neither was DeRo when he played for the Lynx in 1997, or FSW Zwickau from 1997-1999 (12 appearances, 1 goal). He was potential.

He was on an upswing when he played for the Richmond kickers in D2, but lots of D2 players never cut it in D1.

It was only in San Jose that he came into his own.

[Roogsy]

Oldtimer, your argument falls apart with the Frings and Koevermans signings. Those aren't moves made to win in the future. Those are moves to win today.

Not that I disagree with signing these 2 DPs. I am always in favour of adding talent, mostly because I think long term rebuilding in MLS is a fools game.


It also falls apart when you consider the fact that he hasn't signed anyone that can be considered a "long-term prospect". All his signings have been stop-gaps. Which is fine, because the team needed it. But to claim that the "rebuild" has begun is disingenuous. This is not a rebuild yet. And I am not sure at what point we will see the rebuild or continue to see stop-gaps like older DPs, loans and roleplayers from Europe that wont be around longer than 1 or 2 seasons.

[Oldtimer]

The great thing about football is its a game of opinions.
I see prospects, some others don't.

You never know until the player is older.

[Roogsy]

I don't disagree about the difference of opinions, but I'd like to know who you think our prospects are?

[Oldtimer]

I don't really see the value in debating individual prospects, because they are prospects.

If I was a FSW Zwickau supporter in 1998 and someone had pointed out DeRo to me, I would have said he was garbage, an attacking player who can't score goals.

So we disagree on the potential of our current young prospects. Let's just leave it at that.

[Whoop]

I, too, am interested in knowing who is a prospect.

Really outside of Plata, I don't see any. I'm not including the academy kids in the equation.

Soolsma? Martina? Borman? Tchani?

[Roogsy]

That's a cop-out OT. If your claim is that we are rebuilding, then your evidence has to show we are rebuilding.

And I don't buy into this whole "you don't know a prospect until he flourishes" position. By the time DeRo was with the Richmond Kickers, several teams were interested in signing him including DC and San Jose. In other words, his potential was interesting if not certain. Most prospects at least generate that much interest. Have any of ours? We had one. We decided not to keep him. What others do we have?

[Oldtimer]

By the time DeRo signed with the Kickers, he had been playing professionally 4 years with no results.

So I could point out anyone, and you would say "he's no good, there is no results."

It's not a cop-out. I just refuse to play the game.

You see no prospects, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. Continue with pointing out why 13% of the votes are right, and everyone else is wrong/Koolaid drinker/etc.

[Pookie]

Is there really such a thing as a good long term prospect in the MLS?

If they are "can't miss superstars" try likely won't be here long.
Eg. Eckersley is a good young prospect. Think he'll be here over the long term?

Our prospects are good MLS type prospect which means warts and all

[Roogsy]

By the time DeRo signed with the Kickers, he had been playing professionally 4 years with no results.

So I could point out anyone, and you would say "he's no good, there is no results."

It's not a cop-out. I just refuse to play the game.

You see no prospects, that's fine. Continue with pointing out why 13% of the votes are right, and everyone else is wrong/Koolaid drinker/etc.

You refuse to play the game because you have no quality answers. Or put another way, you're counting on luck that at some point we see quality senior team prospects in our system by pure chance. I don't view "luck" as a proper way to rebuild. I do however see this as an opportunity to point out what a boneheaded move it was to release one of the few quality prospects we did have.

As for pointing out why 13% of votes are right, I could simply point out that Winter did not have a majority of confidence until TFC won vs Vancouver. This poll is skewed by the euphoria of that win. Had this poll opened after the 2 horrible losses we just experienced, I guarantee you Winter would not be getting the vote of confidence he did after Vancouver. Yes, TFC fans are that fickle. Shocking I know.

[menefreghista]

We had one. We decided not to keep him. What others do we have?

The sad thing is that Aleman probably would have stayed had he actually been offered a contract.

[Whoop]

But I think Roogsy, and by extension some others including myself, are interesting on who you think is a prospect that's all. It's just an opinion.

I mean that's what talent evaluators do.

For example, does someone from San Jose, say "you know TFC is using Yourassowsky all wrong. If we got him in our system, I think he'd do well." Or someone from KC could say "Soolsma is actually not bad. I think if he played with us he'd do better than he's shown."

On the other hand, Nana Attakora was a prospect and now apparently is shit.

Really, in terms of prospects, other than Plata I don't see any other prospects. Like I said I'm not including the Academy kids like Cordon or Stinson or Henry or Morgan because really they've been thrown to the wolves and in terms of development, in my opinion, aren't developing properly. I'm of the adage that you learn more by playing than by watching. And all these talk of the reserve league... how many reserve league matches has TFC played this year.

But if you see prospects, I'm naturally interested. Prospects talk is what I live for, albeit for another sport.

[Roogsy]

Vic makes a good point. I think Winter and Mariner have done our kids a disservice by stunting their development through promotion to the first team before they were ready. These kids should be getting regular playing time with the Academy, instead they're getting smoked in the few competitive minutes they get with the senior team.

[Beach_Red]

Vic makes a good point. I think Winter and Mariner have done our kids a disservice by stunting their development through promotion to the first team before they were ready. These kids should be getting regular playing time with the Academy, instead they're getting smoked in the few competitive minutes they get with the senior team.

Okay, so if Winter is a good developer of talent he should take over that and let Dichio coach the senior team - at least we'd have a passionate guy who played in MLS knows the other teams and is committed to TFC ;).

[ensco]

Dero didn't get noticed for anything he did in Germany or at Richmond. I think Dero emerged because he got minutes with the CMNT, and the CMNT had some pretty good results in 1999-2001 (including the Gold Cup).

[Oldtimer]

You refuse to play the game because you have no quality answers.

You can make all the accusations you like, but it's not true. Like it or not, not everyone will play by your debating rules.

I think a nicer debating style would make your arguments much more persuasive.

I haven't decided if Winter is overall a good coach. I pointed out his strong areas (which you discount) and also his weak areas. I'll know by mid next year if he's good.

Anyways, I know the sky is falling. It just may stop falling by next year.

http://www.mattfind.com/12345673215-3-2-3_img/movie/d/i/a/chicken_little_2005_580x862_910200.jpg

[Whoop]

I know a lot of people are talking about Vukovic, but I think OT is referring to guys who have been playing pro for a while when the DeRo example is cited.

i.e. the guy who only has 2 goals in 20 games but actually might break out in a different situation.

As for academy/youth prospects, I'll direct to the Dutch squad that won the 2007 UEFA European U-21 championship and point to me any stars that played on the team. Point being a good academy player doesn't necessarily reflect a star senior player or even a contributing senior player.

But if there are some hidden gems on the current TFC senior roster I'd be interested to know. I'm always willing to increase my football IQ.

[Roogsy]

You can make all the accusations you like, but it's not true. Like it or not, not everyone will play by your debating rules.

I think a nicer debating style would make your arguments much more persuasive.

I haven't decided if Winter is overall a good coach. I pointed out his strong areas (which you discount) and also his weak areas. I'll know by mid next year if he's good.

Anyways, I know the sky is falling. It just may stop falling by next year.

http://www.mattfind.com/12345673215-3-2-3_img/movie/d/i/a/chicken_little_2005_580x862_910200.jpg


http://x24.xanga.com/47ee626b1003290305199/z27187842.jpg

[Roogsy]

I know a lot of people are talking about Vukovic, but I think OT is referring to guys who have been playing pro for a while when the DeRo example is cited.

i.e. the guy who only has 2 goals in 20 games but actually might break out in a different situation.

As for academy/youth prospects, I'll direct to the Dutch squad that won the 2007 UEFA European U-21 championship and point to me any stars that played on the team. Point being a good academy player doesn't necessarily reflect a star senior player or even a contributing senior player.

But if there are some hidden gems on the current TFC senior roster I'd be interested to know. I'm always willing to increase my football IQ.

Even moreso, since the claim is that Winter is rebuilding, I'd like to know what prospects, if any, he has actually brought in himself as opposed to kids that were already in the academy system?

If the claim is that Winter is rebuilding, shouldn't the evidence point to actual rebuilding activity? Loans and old DPs aren't exactly traditional "rebuilding" strategies.

[Oldtimer]

Back on topic:




Why I voted "yes" to approving of Winter's job so far was because I saw the following:

* The team is using youth as a basis for the team, not aging stars. TFC is the youngest team in the league.

* Young players are the ideal basis for using the 4-3-3 formation. You can train younger players, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

* Winter & Mariner are supplementing the team with a good sprinkling of quality DP experience to teach the lads how to play well.

* They are avoiding the temptation to "win now." I honestly thought all along that Winter was not really trying to win this season. Of course he couldn't say that, because no-one would buy tickets, but anyone who thought TFC had a good chance of making the playoffs was unrealistic.

Why I don't wholeheartedly susbscribe that Winter is the solution is that he is showing some tactical naivetivity. The good side is that he is showing signs of learning the league, and has been modifying the strict Dutch style into something more appropriate for North America. It won't show results until he gets the spine worked out (hopefully the two DP signings will provide 2/3 of the spine, he still needs a quality player to marshall the defense). It may even fail. But Winter is doing exactly what one would want in order to actually become a quality team. Let's hope that the team he assembles will make up for any tactical deficiencies Winter has. Kreis learned on the job, as well. It may blow up into something horrible... or it may work out beautifully. Time will tell.

Wanting to fire Winter now to "show some results" is playing exactly into the traditional Toronto sports-fan model. Let's hope the pressure doesn't cause Winter to emulate our friends the Leafs.

Rather than cherry-picking one point, let's look at the whole argument.

It was good enough for a "yes" for now. It doesn't mean I'm convinced that Winter is the answer. Time will tell, more than 1/2 season.

[Whoop]

Dero didn't get noticed for anything he did in Germany or at Richmond. I think Dero emerged because he got minutes with the CMNT, and the CMNT had some pretty good results in 1999-2001 (including the Gold Cup).

I posted this article last week.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/for-dc-uniteds-dwayne-de-rosario-i-feel-like-its-come-full-circle/2011/07/05/gHQAqhblzH_story.html

Also helped that Frank Yallop and DeRo were roommates. You're a new coach you turn to a guy you figure can help you out in the short term.

[Roogsy]

Back on topic:



Rather than cherry-picking one point, let's look at the whole argument.

You accuse me of an unattractive debating style so instead you use a collection of logical fallacies as a better way to debate?

[Oldtimer]

You accuse me of an unattractive debating style so instead you use a collection of logical fallacies as a better way to debate?

Lesson 1:

Rather than attack, go for the individual points.
Look at all of the points, not just one.

Lesson 2:

Winning a debate isn't necessary. Increasing our overall knowledge is the goal.

[Roogsy]

But then when the individual points are debated you accuse the opponent of cherry picking. It's circular reasoning with you.

Then you use strawman arguments, changing of topic tactics, exaggeration and even ad hominem attacks etc. and then say the debate has gone off topic?

I haven't attacked you once. But I have attacked your points, which you still refuse to address.

[Oldtimer]

I just explained why I voted yes.

Disagree all you like. You can think my reasons are garbage. I don't, but it's OK. No need to attack.

We can disagree and still be respectful. We're all on the same side, you know.

[trane]

It's not based on the scores this season, that's what you have to understand. Comparing levels of suckitude during a rebuilding year is fruitless. It has nothing to do with where the team will end up.

The point is that we won't know until next season whether or not Winter has worked out, at the earliest.




I am still supporting winter at THIS point. But if the team does not show more heart and plays more organized and inteligent football by the end of the season, why do we need another season. Why do we need to hold off till next season? Can we not see what is happening on the pitch. At one point I was seeing improvemnt in the overall play, but no results. Now I am seeing results in CL only and very little improvemnt in play game in game out. If I do not see both by the end of the season, I may join the ranks calling for Winter's dismissal. Again I am not there yet, but the it is no looking good.

[Roogsy]

Again, I have not attacked you. I have attacked your points. If you cannot backup your points, then those points are not substantiated by facts or evidence. While it does end the need to expand on it (because you can't), it does need to be pointed out as well. And certainly there is no reasonabe expectation that others hold your same optimism based on little or not evidence. If anything, it is the very definition of "blind faith".

[Whoop]

I have no issue with the youth argument but when you rebuild, you usually identify a core group of young players that you are going to build with.

Right now on TFC I see 3 players that are getting significant minutes that a) you can build around and b) are more than just depth players.

Frei
Eckersley - if TFC options to buy
Plata

And you can probably make an argument for Tony Tchani.

I don't mind Sturgis. I feel he's been underused. Also didn't mind Williams until he got hurt.

I like Nick Soolsma's work ethic but he's a depth guy. Javier Martina shows flashes, but again depth guy.

Guys like Maicon Santos, Alan Gordon, JDG are older players. These aren't building blocks.

I'm not a fan of Harden or Dan Gargan, though to his credit has put in some decent performances as of late.

So am I missing someone?

[Oldtimer]

I haven't attacked you once. But I have attacked your points, which you still refuse to address.

The only thing I haven't addressed is to "name names" about prospects. Others have named some names and pointed out how differing coaches, systems makes a big difference. You can point out to them why each prospect is no good. I told you why I didn't name names, you accuse me of not having any. That's not true, and I consider that accusation an attack.

So I've given my reasons, over and out.

[menefreghista]

As it stands now, I can only see 2 things in Winter's favour:

1. The need for the appearance of stability
2. Blind faith

Other than that I find it hard to see any signs that this is going in the right direction.

[ag futbol]

I just think a lot of stuff people are eating up about Winter’s plans are not unique to MLS (youth, academy, 4-3-3) and in some cases the way he is going about it is impractical because he’s not adapting it for the North American game. He just looks at this job as a scaled-down version of Dutch football.

I just look at the players he’s brought in and the way he manages his lineup and thing to myself “it doesn’t work that way”. It is like if Arsen Wenger decided he was going to play his style of football but forgot the premiership was a physical league; he would get crushed on a weekly basis. That being said, he’s a great manager because he manages to play his style of football by adapting it to the league that he plays in.

So my point is this: you can play 4-3-3, you can have a youth academy, and you can do all the things Winter talks about: but you have to adapt it for North America. Many people point to over arching strategies why things fail: “there’s no market for that product”, “his team played the wrong style”, etc… But failure is more often about execution than the idea itself. You can make a really bad idea work if you implement it properly! The implementation of this great idea Winter has sold us, to date, sucks.

[Roogsy]

The only thing I haven't addressed is to "name names" about prospects. Others have named some names and pointed out how differing coaches, systems makes a big difference. You can point out to them why each prospect is no good. I told you why I didn't name names, you accuse me of not having any. That's not true, and I consider that accusation an attack.

So I've given my reasons, over and out.


You just can't say "there are prospects" and not point them out. Because the other side will simply argue "there are no prospects" and where does that leave your argument?

How you consider that "an attack" is head-scratching since that is the very nature of a debate on a discussion board. You have to be prepared to substantiate your claim somehow. Accusing someone of "attacking" you because they insist that you substantiate your claim is either a tactic of diversion or if genuine, completely overly sensitive.

But if that is where you want to leave it, so be it.

[Whoop]

The great thing about football is its a game of opinions.
I see prospects, some others don't.

You never know until the player is older.

But who do you see? Who are the prospects?

That's the frustrating part.

Sure there are late bloomers, but you can't build a team around late bloomers.

I'm not a big fan of DeRo, most know that, but he was 23 when he joined San Jose, around the same age as guys like Soolsma, Martina, Tchani and Sturgis.

So if one of those guys has the potential to have a MLS career like DeRo's I say keep him.

But maybe it's because I'm not a football guy first, I don't see it.

So I turn to those who know more about football than me to tell me, am I missing something? I'd really like to know.

[ManUtd4ever]

Based on my impression, I think the following players could be considered legitimate prospects. I've included players that are currently with the first team, and players in the system that I believe will be capable of playing with the first team for the next several years, not necessarily future all stars. I've also included players on loan based on the assumption that TFC has the MLS mandated option to purchase the respective player's rights.

G- Kocic

D- Eckersley, Henry, Morgan, Omphroy

M- Tchani, Cordon, Stinson, Gold

F- Plata, Lindsay

I think it's reasonable to suggest that the cupboard isn't exactly bare.

[Roogsy]

I guess the question is whether you'd consider loans as eligible for the classification of "prospects".

Ecks and Plata are the best players on your list, but they're also loaned players. Unless their ownership can be solidified by the league for us, I'd be hesitant to call them prospects. And without them, your list is looking less impressive.

[cincy]

That Plata one is a weird one. We had to draft a loaned player ?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Id say Tchani is a prospect for sure