PDA

View Full Version : TFC to unveil Frings, Koevermans as newest signings, Winter not out



Pages : 1 2 [3]

Shway
06-29-2011, 04:00 PM
quick question: did aarons clothes get lost?

same suit and tie all the time

colman1860
06-29-2011, 04:00 PM
lol not shocked about Frings' lack of English...he came across as a bit of a dummy in Deutschland - Ein Sommermaerchen. No matter, he's a monster on the field. The new Dichio (albeit in a different position)

TFCmatty
06-29-2011, 04:00 PM
Bremmen fans all over the live chat, wishing Torsten luck. <3

DangerRed
06-29-2011, 04:00 PM
Winter says the man at the back will be "an American or a Canadian" from MLS, in part because of lack of international slots.

bertal
06-29-2011, 04:01 PM
klinsmann doing work

Island Man
06-29-2011, 04:02 PM
Winter says the man at the back will be "an American or a Canadian" from MLS, in part because of lack of international slots.
Dejan Jakovic please.

denime
06-29-2011, 04:02 PM
Canadian defender,McKenna maybe?

Ageroo
06-29-2011, 04:04 PM
Canadian defender,McKenna maybe?

I would take him in a heartbeat........solid and great in the air.

ag futbol
06-29-2011, 04:04 PM
So this is a confirmed trade?

Andrew Hainault could be in there as well, but I think Jakovic is a much better fit for the team given his ability to pass out of the back.

drewski
06-29-2011, 04:04 PM
saw on twitter that Winter is staying as head coach. true?

DangerRed
06-29-2011, 04:05 PM
Presser over. Now, let's get these two upcoming Vancouver losses out of the way and let's see some goals!
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01926/lulzsec_1926506c.jpg

ag futbol
06-29-2011, 04:05 PM
Yeah, the rumors were bs

bones
06-29-2011, 04:05 PM
Ok we have a 'Frings' and a 'Frei' we just need an 'Onionring'

Bones...

TFC07
06-29-2011, 04:06 PM
Canadian defender,McKenna maybe?

Oh man, I wish! He will be perfect leader for us.

Keyman
06-29-2011, 04:06 PM
Koevermans admits he came here because he is too old to play in Holland lol duno about a DP spot for him. time will tell.

denime
06-29-2011, 04:06 PM
Dejan Jakovic please.

Yeah,I that would work.

Trade JDG to DC for Dejan.

TFC07
06-29-2011, 04:07 PM
So this is a confirmed trade?

Andrew Hainault could be in there as well, but I think Jakovic is a much better fit for the team given his ability to pass out of the back.

Winter said he's looking for a leader in backline. I don't think those players fit the bill.

flatpicker
06-29-2011, 04:07 PM
Koevermans admits he came here because he is too old to play in Holland lol duno about a DP spot for him. time will tell.


Yeah... but I really don't care about his reasons, so long as he scores goals.
(Something we haven't much of from this team)

yellowfellow
06-29-2011, 04:08 PM
Yeah,I that would work.

Trade JDG to DC for Dejan.

JDG and DeRo in DC? That will set off DeRo again for his DP contract

Suds
06-29-2011, 04:08 PM
Oh please for the love of God ... please make these two guys work out!

eustacchio
06-29-2011, 04:10 PM
JDG and DeRo in DC? That will set off DeRo again for his DP contract

hilarious

Waggy
06-29-2011, 04:13 PM
Conspiracy theory: Thanks to NBA lockout MLSE has an extra 60 million dollars sitting around this year. And looks like they decided to spend some on TFC. Allah buddah jesus I love you all! It's about time!

Belfast_Boy
06-29-2011, 04:14 PM
31 and 35. oh boy.
dont get me wrong. always like Frings but that was many moons ago.
like Suds said I hope this works.

Island Man
06-29-2011, 04:17 PM
Frings is only 34!!!

Thomas
06-29-2011, 04:45 PM
It says they can't play till mid July, but can they practice with the team.

mastermixer
06-29-2011, 04:48 PM
It says they can't play till mid July, but can they practice with the team.

Good question?? Anyone know? It would be great if they could get acclimated to the team instead of being thrown out there July 20

Ossington Mental Youth
06-29-2011, 04:50 PM
id be shocked if they werent able to practice with the team

Island Man
06-29-2011, 04:51 PM
So what number with Tchani wear?

TFCmatty
06-29-2011, 04:52 PM
From Torstens Website (Translated from Deutsch):

Toronto, Canada - 29.06.2011 - I've decided: After careful consideration, I'm going to play in the future for the Toronto FC in Major League Soccer (MLS) for my decision, there were good reasons I had several inquiries from Europe.. America and the Emirates;.. Although some also from the Bundesliga would have been interesting and even though lucrative, I was intrigued by the challenge of America is by far the most I've long been a big fan of this continent and now have the chance to land and experienced people and know where I'm doing what I enjoy most: play football.

When Toronto FC has convinced me the whole package: a city with a high quality of life in a great country, full stadiums, professional environment and the vision of the club that I can help shape a central role. That's why I signed for 2.5 years. I would really appreciate if we stay, "across the pond" in conjunction. I will keep you up to date here and tell you about my (football) adventure.

Yours, Torsten

Serb_Star
06-29-2011, 04:54 PM
Great signings!

Hopefully this means the end of JDG.

Auzzy
06-29-2011, 05:00 PM
After watching some Frings highlights...

I'm just attempting to imagine Joao Plata trying to grab the ball from Frings to take a quick free kick or PK... LOL

Mango Kid
06-29-2011, 05:03 PM
Super excited. According to wiki, he has 4 caps at the senior international level.

That means he's twice as good as Mista!

I might be wrong, but...

2 x 0 = 0

Azerban
06-29-2011, 05:05 PM
From Torstens Website (Translated from Deutsch):

Toronto, Canada - 29.06.2011 - I've decided: After careful consideration, I'm going to play in the future for the Toronto FC in Major League Soccer (MLS) for my decision, there were good reasons I had several inquiries from Europe.. America and the Emirates;.. Although some also from the Bundesliga would have been interesting and even though lucrative, I was intrigued by the challenge of America is by far the most I've long been a big fan of this continent and now have the chance to land and experienced people and know where I'm doing what I enjoy most: play football.

When Toronto FC has convinced me the whole package: a city with a high quality of life in a great country, full stadiums, professional environment and the vision of the club that I can help shape a central role. That's why I signed for 2.5 years. I would really appreciate if we stay, "across the pond" in conjunction. I will keep you up to date here and tell you about my (football) adventure.

Yours, Torsten

he is adorable

i just want to pinch his little cheeks

PopePouri
06-29-2011, 05:08 PM
Having this type of quality has effects not just on the field but on the training ground especially for the younger academy kids.

Chevy
06-29-2011, 05:08 PM
JDG and DeRo in DC? That will set off DeRo again for his DP contract

Combine that with TFC signing two 30+ DP's and it would add up to a pretty shitty week. I might actually feel sorry for him.

Mango Kid
06-29-2011, 05:10 PM
Can't say I for any reason have cheered on a team Frings played for so I always hated the guy. Nasty tackles, ornery...he's the PERFECT guy for this team right now. Freaking love it.

TFCRegina
06-29-2011, 05:14 PM
So...how long until Harvey's starts selling Limited Time Only TFC Frings?

LucaGol
06-29-2011, 05:26 PM
I like Frings ... but why did we sign another DM as a DP?

Pachuco
06-29-2011, 05:31 PM
Catching up late on all this crazy news.
Intriguing. Got extremely excited when I saw we signed Torsten Frings. Scored what I believe to be the nicest World Cup goal in 2006. I don't have a problem with this signing even at his age. There are a lot of good things that can come out of this. His experience will be invaluable.

I think people are overhyping Koevermans though as a high profile player. Personally he's nowhere near that in my mind. But we'll see how he performs on the pitch. I do worry that all three of our DPs are a bit old. I know JDG isn't that old but he plays like he is.

If these two guys don't work out TFC is in deeeeep doodo.

Pachuco
06-29-2011, 05:33 PM
I like Frings ... but why did we sign another DM as a DP?

I would expect he's going to be that AM we've all been looking for, I believe he is capable of playing there as well. Either that of JDG is gone and he'll pair up with Tchani?

LucaGol
06-29-2011, 05:36 PM
I would expect he's going to be that AM we've all been looking for, I believe he is capable of playing there as well. Either that of JDG is gone and he'll pair up with Tchani?

Is he? I'm honestly not sure about that ... maybe some Bundesliga ppl can clarify this.

Pachuco
06-29-2011, 05:57 PM
Is he? I'm honestly not sure about that ... maybe some Bundesliga ppl can clarify this.

I'm honestly not sure either. But I think Ossington was saying he can play anywhere in the midfield. I only know what I saw in the World Cups and he sure looks like he can be a playmaker to me.

Also, I think someone said he's scored 7 goals in a season. Sure beats the other DM we are used to having who is incapable of even hitting the net.

Heathen
06-29-2011, 05:57 PM
Frings not a lick...he apologized and said through interpreter he'll learn fast.

Maybe Stefan Frei can interpret for him, he comes from a German-speaking region of Switzerland

Ossington Mental Youth
06-29-2011, 06:01 PM
Is he? I'm honestly not sure about that ... maybe some Bundesliga ppl can clarify this.


I'm honestly not sure either. But I think Ossington was saying he can play anywhere in the midfield. I only know what I saw in the World Cups and he sure looks like he can be a playmaker to me.

Also, I think someone said he's scored 7 goals in a season. Sure beats the other DM we are used to having who is incapable of even hitting the net.

hes pretty versatile but is best at DM, id say hes a box to box like Shalrie but of higher quality and not afraid to get stuck in, got great passes to boot. Id be willing to bet hes a replacement for JDG.

Oldtimer
06-29-2011, 06:02 PM
Maybe Stefan Frei can interpret for him, he comes from a German-speaking region of Switzerland

Swiss German ("low German") is quite different from the German spoken in Germany. It is closer to what the Pennsylvania Dutch speak.

However many low German speakers are bilingual, and can speak regular German as well.

Ossington Mental Youth
06-29-2011, 06:06 PM
Pachuco, LucaGol - I do know we also have Bekker trialing with us, i suspect he'll be primary playmaker (id still like to see stronger pedigree but if dude can do the trick i wouldnt be angry), with Frings pulling the strings from the back. I wouldnt put him in the primary creative roll anyways.


Swiss German ("low German") is quite different from the German spoken in Germany. It is closer to what the Pennsylvania Dutch speak.

However many low German speakers are bilingual, and can speak regular German as well.

they shouldnt have any problems understanding each other, more or less dialects

arsenal
06-29-2011, 06:07 PM
Not trying to rain on the parade here .... but in looking at the Frings highlights looks like a lot of those goals were likely pk's. He may be very capable of scoring goals here but I would not read too much into his goal numbers without considering this.

Heathen
06-29-2011, 06:08 PM
I'm honestly not sure either. But I think Ossington was saying he can play anywhere in the midfield. I only know what I saw in the World Cups and he sure looks like he can be a playmaker to me.

Also, I think someone said he's scored 7 goals in a season. Sure beats the other DM we are used to having who is incapable of even hitting the net.

He definitely gets forward more than a pure DM, he's got 1 goal every 8 international games for Germany and has averaged 1 every 7 domestically. You also have to consider that what he did for Germany, Werder and Bayern isn't necessarily what he'll be doing for us, he won't be playing second or third fiddle to Schweinsteiger, Ozul, Diego etc. In those sides he was given a specific job to do but the sense I from seeing him is is that he's capable of taking on a bigger role for us.

Oldtimer
06-29-2011, 06:16 PM
Not trying to rain on the parade here .... but in looking at the Frings highlights looks like a lot of those goals were likely pk's. He may be very capable of scoring goals here but I would not read too much into his goal numbers without considering this.

It's OK, as long as Toledo is reffing, there will be plenty of PKs. :D

oxygenatedbrain
06-29-2011, 06:30 PM
Pachuco, LucaGol - I do know we also have Bekker trialing with us, i suspect he'll be primary playmaker (id still like to see stronger pedigree but if dude can do the trick i wouldnt be angry), with Frings pulling the strings from the back.

Point me to your source with regard to how Bekker is eligible to sign, please.

manic.street.preacher
06-29-2011, 06:35 PM
not gonna go back and read 19 pages of comments ... just gonna say that these signings have me rather pleased ... Koevermans is someone i'd been thinking of for a few years that would be a good fit for mls (him and Theo Jannsen i'm quite keen on) ... i hope this works out

Cashcleaner
06-29-2011, 07:05 PM
Woke up about an hour ago to the news and am still trying to get a handle on the signings. Not really sure what I think of all this, to be honest.

Koevermans is a player I "get" as a acquisition. He's an experienced striker with a pretty good record for the Dutch league. Has played for some pretty prestigeous teams (I certainly recognise PSV and Rotterdam) andfits into the roster quite well. We needed a goal-scorer and here one is. As for Frings, I'm sorta scratching my head over that one. Can't knock the guy's overall record considering where he's from, but I just wasn't expecting to see a 34 year-old defensive mid being brought in. I suppose this pretty much assures JDG's departure before next season. Admittedly, the more I compare the two of them, the more I agree that Frings will liekly turn out to be the superior player between him and JDG.

I dunno. A lot to process in one go. I like the acquisitions overall, I'm just not sure if I should be getting any champagne chilled, though.

Pachuco
06-29-2011, 07:39 PM
Pachuco, LucaGol - I do know we also have Bekker trialing with us, i suspect he'll be primary playmaker (id still like to see stronger pedigree but if dude can do the trick i wouldnt be angry), with Frings pulling the strings from the back. I wouldnt put him in the primary creative roll anyways.



they shouldnt have any problems understanding each other, more or less dialects

Ok, you are scaring me. TFC surely isn't dumb enough to sign another DP DM without either getting rid of JDG right away, or with the intent to play him as the primary playmaker. Especially considering we have Tchani and Sturgis.

So if you wouldn't play him as a primary play maker, I'm scared. Even if we get JDG, we still need a playmaker. Should be #1 thing they were looking for. We didn't even need a striker before a playmaker in my mind.

CSO_BBTB
06-29-2011, 08:11 PM
...TFC surely isn't dumb enough to sign another DP DM without either getting rid of JDG right away...

In a "rebuilding" year it is all about putting the pieces in place for the following season. JDG will be gone when his contract expires so if a suitable replacement comes on the market now, who knows how to play the midfield anchor role in Winter's preferred "point back" 4-5-1/4-3-3 system, it makes sense to sign him because the timing is very much now where getting ready for 2012 is concerned in terms of the European transfer market because most contracts expire during the summer over there.

arsenal
06-29-2011, 09:05 PM
It's OK, as long as Toledo is reffing, there will be plenty of PKs. :D

LOL indeed. But also good chance Frings is red carded before he gets to take them if Toledo is in charge ;)

Pachuco
06-29-2011, 09:13 PM
In a "rebuilding" year it is all about putting the pieces in place for the following season. JDG will be gone when his contract expires so if a suitable replacement comes on the market now, who knows how to play the midfield anchor role in Winter's preferred "point back" 4-5-1/4-3-3 system, it makes sense to sign him because the timing is very much now where getting ready for 2012 is concerned in terms of the European transfer market because most contracts expire during the summer over there.

You may have a point. Still would be quite crazy to have two DP DMs and to other DMs on your team. That must be a first.

JuliquE
06-29-2011, 09:21 PM
You may have a point. Still would be quite crazy to have two DP DMs and to other DMs on your team. That must be a first.
Agree.. but it is important to have some solid depth at that position, especially since we may often opt to play two DM's to pad our back-line with.

I can see us ending up with three DM's at the start of next season.

J .
06-29-2011, 09:28 PM
They have to get rid of JDG and bring in some width. Martina, Soolsma are not the answers. Plata is 2 years away from being a consistent starter, Eckersley is a solid RB, Borman ok for MLS. But until they get two guys who can play off their striker and provide with the team will still be unable to score goals

69Chevy396
06-29-2011, 09:36 PM
They have to get rid of JDG and bring in some width. Martina, Soolsma are not the answers. Plata is 2 years away from being a consistent starter, Eckersley is a solid RB, Borman ok for MLS. But until they get two guys who can play off their striker and provide with the team will still be unable to score goals
Eckersley needs to be signed long term, he is clearly still the best acquisition Winter has made, is needed to shore up this defense. JDG probably wants out anyway, so his departure from TFC is likely imminent.

Pookie
06-29-2011, 09:53 PM
Happy with the signings. A little scary when you consider their ages.

At the same time, while skills do decline with age, they are at a higher plateau than most anyone in this league.

Sounds like Winter is looking for further defensive help from within the league. The trade winds are a-brewing.

Ossington Mental Youth
06-29-2011, 10:03 PM
Point me to your source with regard to how Bekker is eligible to sign, please.

my bad i misread somewhere, thought he was finished school

Ossington Mental Youth
06-29-2011, 10:05 PM
Ok, you are scaring me. TFC surely isn't dumb enough to sign another DP DM without either getting rid of JDG right away, or with the intent to play him as the primary playmaker. Especially considering we have Tchani and Sturgis.

So if you wouldn't play him as a primary play maker, I'm scared. Even if we get JDG, we still need a playmaker. Should be #1 thing they were looking for. We didn't even need a striker before a playmaker in my mind.

I do seem to think hes meant to replace JDG, as for play as creative mid, erg.... i tend to agree we will need one badly as well, hate to say it. Winter definitely said we're in need of another defender (im assuming CB). Could it be that theyll play Koevermans as a 10? is that possible? far as i know hes a straight up CF

Voodooman
06-29-2011, 10:15 PM
My friend already bought a TFC Frings jersey.....

CSO_BBTB
06-29-2011, 10:19 PM
....I do seem to think hes meant to replace JDG, as for play as creative mid, erg....

If the plan is to use 4-2-3-1 then an Amado Guevara type player is the way to go. If as there is strong reason to believe Winter prefers 4-1-4-1 (or whatever you choose to call it) then a player like Frings is arguably the better fit.

Auzzy
06-29-2011, 10:22 PM
They have to get rid of JDG and bring in some width. Martina, Soolsma are not the answers. Plata is 2 years away from being a consistent starter, Eckersley is a solid RB, Borman ok for MLS. But until they get two guys who can play off their striker and provide with the team will still be unable to score goals

Agreed on everything except Soolsma. The guy may be slow, but he always gets a cross in & rarely loses a ball, even against faster defenders. He's definitely MLS quality.

Just a crazy idea: I wonder if Santos could do a decent job at front left, with his excellent left foot? He and Koef could also switch off throughout the game to throw off the marking.

Plata's great for his age, but we've been relying much too heavily on him. At his current level, he would be a great 70-minute sub though, for some of our older strikers, and to continue his development.

kaos197O
06-29-2011, 10:25 PM
My friend already bought a TFC Frings jersey.....

I got the very first one today at BMO and met with him after the game to get it signed first as well.

He is a Klinnsmann signing and Klinnsmann is still very involved with the goings on here.

He is also going to need to learn English better as they want him to be a leader and role model for the club and the youth going forward.

As a huge German footy supporter I find it almost surreal that we have signed him. Let's hope the tide had finally turned.

Koevermans is pumped about playing here and playing with Frings as well. He Kept on talking about how we will hoist the Cup on Saturday and he can't wait for it, along with his first match.

raj100
06-29-2011, 10:25 PM
how about tchani relegated to the bench? and then play with frings AND JDG in a triangle midfield 3?

CSO_BBTB
06-29-2011, 10:26 PM
Agreed on everything except Soolsma. The guy may be slow, but he always gets a cross in....

...and judging from the youtube clips posted earlier Koevermans will know how to attack the front post on some of the low crosses he sends in. Not 100% sold on Soolsma but under the circumstances of his signing (late coaching appointment during the winter window when fewer good players are available) and given the sub-100k cap number he has worked out OK. Martina has been the disappointment.

J .
06-29-2011, 10:26 PM
Agreed on everything except Soolsma. The guy may be slow, but he always gets a cross in & rarely loses a ball, even against faster defenders. He's definitely MLS quality.

Just a crazy idea: I wonder if Santos could do a decent job at front left, with his excellent left foot? He and Koef could also switch off throughout the game to throw off the marking.

Plata's great for his age, but we've been relying much too heavily on him. At his current stage of development, he would be a great 70-minute sub though, for some of our older strikers, and to continue his development.

I dont mind Sools as a change, but Im not sold on him to start, he simpy does not score enough to warrant a starting position in the lineup. You need your front three to be scorers and if it was a traditional 442, he would be fine, not when you need someone who needs to score.

I think when Santos was put wide he was not involved enough. I would not be surprised to see Santos moved to be honest as its looking like he is without a position unless he can develop himself as an AM.

Cas87
06-29-2011, 10:27 PM
what? no line-ups yet?

kaos197O
06-29-2011, 10:27 PM
how about tchani relegated to the bench? and then play with frings AND JDG in a triangle midfield 3?

This will likely be the case for now.

CSO_BBTB
06-29-2011, 10:33 PM
Will it though? If you are building for next year it makes sense to use the players who will actually be around. Suspect we might see Frings, Tchani and Santos as the midfield triangle with JDG and Sturgis as cover and Yourassowsksy competing for the left back spot with Borman.

ArmenJBX
06-29-2011, 10:35 PM
--------------------------Frei----------------------------
-Eckersley------Williams---------Tchani-----------Borman-
---------------------------------------------------------
-------------de Guzman--------Frings---------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
----------------------Zavarise----------------------------
--Martina-------------------------------------Plata-------
---------------------Koevermans-------------------------

kaos197O
06-29-2011, 10:40 PM
Will it though? If you are building for next year it makes sense to use the players who will actually be around. Suspect we might see Frings, Tchani and Santos as the midfield triangle with JDG and Sturgis as cover and Yourassowsksy competing for the left back spot with Borman.

You really think that Deguz is going to sit? If that is the case they may as well dump him because I truly believe he will check out completely if that's the case. You could be right though.

Ossington Mental Youth
06-29-2011, 10:44 PM
You really think that Deguz is going to sit? If that is the case they may as well dump him because I truly believe he will check out completely if that's the case. You could be right though.

Kinda think thats gonna happen, why else would we get a better player in his position?

Even then

Frings-Tchani-DeGuzman

Does that look so wrong to you with Tchani going forward?

kaos197O
06-29-2011, 10:56 PM
Kinda think thats gonna happen, why else would we get a better player in his position?

Even then

Frings-Tchani-DeGuzman

Does that look so wrong to you with Tchani going forward?
It doesn't look wrong. It could work for sure as we need to address our defensive woes. But what of Santos and Gordon if we go this route? Tchani is no AM.

CSO_BBTB
06-29-2011, 11:01 PM
You really think that Deguz is going to sit?

Up to now De Guzman has been pretty much an automatic selection when he hasn't broken curfew because he was the franchise player making the big bucks and the team was supposed to revolve around him. That's no longer the case now. All depends on his attitude and whether he can help the team meet some short term goals. If I were Winter I would not have been impressed by the It's Called Football stuff about JDG buying out his contract. An obvious attempt to turn up the heat on Winter after the 2-6 game in the hope the MLSE board would pull the plug on him and move in a different direction. Suspect he has a lot to prove before Winter will want to rely on him in any way from here on.

Whoop
06-29-2011, 11:08 PM
I already saw 2 Frings TFC jerseys in 113 today.

kaos197O
06-29-2011, 11:11 PM
Up to now De Guzman has been pretty much an automatic selection when he hasn't broken curfew because he was the franchise player making the big bucks and the team was supposed to revolve around him. That's no longer the case now. All depends on his attitude and whether he can help the team meet some short term goals. If I were Winter I would not have been impressed by the It's Called Football stuff about JDG buying out his contract. An obvious attempt to turn up the heat on Winter after the 2-6 game in the hope the MLSE board would pull the plug on him and move in a different direction. Suspect he has a lot to prove before Winter will want to rely on him in any way from here on.

I agree completely. Having said that I believe that he will get his shot at turning things around now. He will have the quality that many said he needed around him to make him play better. If he fails to do so quickly, you are right, he'll sit. There are many things Winter can do having Frings added to the lineup. We could see Deguz playing further up as he does with the national team, where he seems to look more impressive. Frings cab also play up further if that's what Winter wants. I would love to see the 2 of them gel though, in the triangle pointing forward, with either Gordon or Koevermans playing at the peak. Perhaps Gordon and Koevermans could switch in and out during the game. Anyways, possibilities are endless and I hope JDG will be an active, productive part of turning this around.

Ossington Mental Youth
06-29-2011, 11:18 PM
It doesn't look wrong. It could work for sure as we need to address our defensive woes. But what of Santos and Gordon if we go this route? Tchani is no AM.

Agreed, he's more box to box. Prob is Santos and Gordon aarent either. The amount Gordon has been injured I bet this is his last year and Santos is good but too inconsistent.

kaos197O
06-29-2011, 11:27 PM
Agreed, he's more box to box. Prob is Santos and Gordon aarent either. The amount Gordon has been injured I bet this is his last year and Santos is good but too inconsistent.

You're right about Santos. But if we can rotate players so that they are getting ample recovery time or 60 mins a game versus the full 90 we may get more from all of them.

Another thing with Frings would be that in a pinch he could easily fill in as a CB if needed. Probably do a better job than many especially if he had Deguz and Tchani as our DM's. Anyways, we are supposed to be getting a quality defender before too long and with all that has transpired we should most definitely be better, immediately.

Can't wait.

ensco
06-29-2011, 11:47 PM
These were clearly soccer signings, not marketing department signings, so that's good.

Even if you assume JDG is gone, I still don't understand the Frings signing. I don't think using the DP slot for DMs is necessary. Plus, you are forcing one of Frings or Tchani out of his natural position. Why? When you add in Peterson and Sturgis, we have a lot of people playing DM around here.

I guess they have more cards to play, so we'll see.

GuelphStorm2007
06-29-2011, 11:58 PM
It should be very interesting in the Team selections for now, I am just hoping that these two guys work. Because boy do we need some Luck. I have seen Frings play and I was pleased from what I saw, I do not know much about Koevermans. :hump::scarf:

jazzy
06-30-2011, 12:12 AM
Will it though? If you are building for next year it makes sense to use the players who will actually be around. Suspect we might see Frings, Tchani and Santos as the midfield triangle with JDG and Sturgis as cover and Yourassowsksy competing for the left back spot with Borman.

Yourassowsksy....has to go,......made up my mind after watching tonight poor passing, standing around, two completely horriblly inaccurrate shots with good opportunities. and he does piss off refs with his diving, all show no go. Borman at least is very good crosser

Auzzy
06-30-2011, 12:16 AM
I'm very impressed with Koeverman's interview on the TFC website.

Jeffro
06-30-2011, 01:04 AM
These guys are great signings for our club right now. Frings is the leader that is so sorely missing in our squad, and I think people are underestimating him as a box to box type player with some quality playmaking ability. De Guz may be on his way out, but if he's around the rest of the season, I could see Frings playing the top of the diamond with Tchani and Julian supporting.

The thing is both players are very experienced in the style of football Winter is trying to instill in this squad, as opposed to just signing up whoever's available. They aren't long term solutions, but they're intelligent choices, as opposed to the stopgap type players we've seen in the past.

Serb_Star
06-30-2011, 02:07 AM
Read the other day that Ivica Dragutinovic was considering the MLS, maybe hes the defender Winter wants?

CSO_BBTB
06-30-2011, 02:21 AM
Wonder if the league would allow that sort of relatively high profile signing as an "injury replacement" for Cann? The two empty DP slots are now gone along with the six discovery signings allowed for 2011 so squeezing in the defender could be tricky. Not sure how allocation signings work these days and if TFC would have enough of that after helping out other teams on DeRosario and Barrett's salaries and potentially paying down one of both of the new DPs so "injury replacement", or a trade within the league are probably the only viable options right now. They may have to wait until the winter window to address that issue.

manic.street.preacher
06-30-2011, 03:11 AM
i didn't see this on the mls articles, but when are they signed until? ... just read Koevermans is til 2014

CSO_BBTB
06-30-2011, 03:38 AM
Think Winter said both through to the end of 2013 as with his own contract during the press conference. The Toronto FC TV clips of that would be the best way to double check on that.

denime
06-30-2011, 05:44 AM
Point me to your source with regard to how Bekker is eligible to sign, please.

Bekker is still not eligible for draft and that means if TFC offers him a good $$$$ he can sign with them tomorrow,once he becomes draft eligible they can't get him anymore except through the draft.

I saw him every day this week .My son is with same academy as Bekker,he is helping coaching during the Sigma International soccer camp (Tuesday TFC practice was held at the same field were kids were practicing)and Boston College head coach is also here and he knows that Bekker is practicing with TFC.

He is just training with TFC, both coaches(Winter and De Klerk) know him from 2007 when he was with Sigma in Holland and they asked him to stay with Ajax,he was there for 6 months and the knee injury was the only reason why he did not sign with Ajax back then.

ensco
06-30-2011, 06:00 AM
If I were Winter I would not have been impressed by the It's Called Football stuff about JDG buying out his contract. An obvious attempt to turn up the heat on Winter after the 2-6 game in the hope the MLSE board would pull the plug on him and move in a different direction. Suspect he has a lot to prove before Winter will want to rely on him in any way from here on.

I think it's the opposite - Winter's done with him already - the ICF source was probably the team - they want JDG to accept a buy out, and JDG wants the full amount of his contract, so while they sort it out, they make him miserable, and he sits.

Either way, same outcome. JDG is gone.

I doubt JDG will see the pitch again, except as maybe an emergency replacement.

CSO_BBTB
06-30-2011, 06:48 AM
Wouldn't completely discount your scenario given the Koevermans rumour would probably have been from an internal TFC source but seems to me that the ICF guys are part of what Paul James has referred to as the CMNT's "entourage" in some of his more negative comments about the Voyageurs fan group. As you say though it's difficult to see a way back for JDG now and hopefully some sort of mutually beneficial parting of the ways gets sorted out.

spark
06-30-2011, 07:05 AM
Wouldn't completely discount your scenario given the Koevermans rumour would probably have been from an internal TFC source but seems to me that the ICF guys are part of what Paul James has referred to as the CMNT's "entourage" in some of his more negative comments about the Voyageurs fan group. As you say though it's difficult to see a way back for JDG now and hopefully some sort of mutually beneficial parting of the ways gets sorted out.

Hmmm I don't think that is the case with ICF - I don't think PJ thinks of the Vs like that now but is referring to the board/forum from 5-10 years ago.

denime
06-30-2011, 07:09 AM
Read the other day that Ivica Dragutinovic was considering the MLS, maybe hes the defender Winter wants?

No,Winter said it will be Canadian/American,no more spots for international players.

denime
06-30-2011, 07:12 AM
Yourassowsksy....has to go,......made up my mind after watching tonight poor passing, standing around, two completely horriblly inaccurrate shots with good opportunities. and he does piss off refs with his diving, all show no go. Borman at least is very good crosser

Don't forget that Yourassowsksy is LB nod MD.You put Yourassowsksy on his natural position and he will be way much better that Borman.

denime
06-30-2011, 07:13 AM
i didn't see this on the mls articles, but when are they signed until? ... just read Koevermans is til 2014


Think Winter said both through to the end of 2013 as with his own contract during the press conference. The Toronto FC TV clips of that would be the best way to double check on that.

January 2014 for all of them,Winter ,De Klerk and new DPs.

Ossington Mental Youth
06-30-2011, 07:28 AM
Don't forget that Yourassowsksy is LB nod MD.You put Yourassowsksy on his natural position and he will be way much better that Borman.

Big time.
Dudes also reasonably priced.
He definitely had a bad game yesterday but overall isnt that bad a player for our league.

Gazza
06-30-2011, 07:42 AM
Don't forget that Yourassowsksy is LB nod MD.You put Yourassowsksy on his natural position and he will be way much better that Borman.

Even when we had a relatively healthy squad he refused to play him at LB. I never understood that. Just like i don't understand why he's thrown in the midfield where he is completely lost. He looked like a more than capable LB, much better than Borman.

Although, after bearing witness to his play acting, i'd rather he was some other team's embarrassment, no matter how good he is.

TOBOR !
06-30-2011, 09:38 AM
a bit trivial perhaps, and proably mentioned elsewhere, but it seemed odd that Frings (I think it was) held up a shirt with number 22 on the back... seeing as that's Tchani's number and all.. maybe he gave it up ?

Jack
06-30-2011, 09:41 AM
a bit trivial perhaps, and proably mentioned elsewhere, but it seemed odd that Frings (I think it was) held up a shirt with number 22 on the back... seeing as that's Tchani's number and all.. maybe he gave it up ?

I wouldn't be surprised.

manic.street.preacher
06-30-2011, 09:42 AM
a bit trivial perhaps, and proably mentioned elsewhere, but it seemed odd that Frings (I think it was) held up a shirt with number 22 on the back... seeing as that's Tchani's number and all.. maybe he gave it up ?
^Tchani posted on twitter that he gave it up

ag futbol
06-30-2011, 09:48 AM
-----Plata-----------Danny K-----------Santos------------
---------------------Frings-----------------------------------
------------JDG-------------Tchani------------------------
Yourassowki----Williams-----Harden------Eckersley
---------------------Frei-----------------------

That honestly is still not a great lineup even though it makes use of the players we have. I assume a new CB is coming. The other spots that badly need upgrading are the clearly the FW spots. I’d consider offloading one of Santos or Gordon since there is little point of having that many decent target men and only one average FW in Plata. The rest of the guys (Soolsma, Martina) have no business being in MLS.

loconet
06-30-2011, 09:58 AM
We're mentioned in the UEFA homepage. We're kinda of a big deal now :D

Ivan
06-30-2011, 10:29 AM
Really? I'd rate Martina MLS quality. In fact, I'd like to see him play a bit more to see how good he could be.

__wowza
06-30-2011, 11:05 AM
Really? I'd rate Martina MLS quality. In fact, I'd like to see him play a bit more to see how good he could be.

same. he's never reclaimed the spark he had in the second game of the season scoring two goals, but i'm sure it's there.

TOBOR !
06-30-2011, 11:08 AM
^Tchani posted on twitter that he gave it up

s'cool.. I figured I was reading too much into that.

lobo
06-30-2011, 11:15 AM
ok, so MLS transfer window is July 15, and our new players can't play a league game until then .... but are they eligible for Saturday's NCC game?

kodiakTFC
06-30-2011, 11:24 AM
ok, so MLS transfer window is July 15, and our new players can't play a league game until then .... but are they eligible for Saturday's NCC game?

Don't think so, I believe teams hand in a list of eligible players at the beginning of the tournament to the CSA.

nimamalek
06-30-2011, 11:37 AM
-----Plata-----------Danny K-----------Santos------------
---------------------Frings-----------------------------------
------------JDG-------------Tchani------------------------
Yourassowki----Williams-----Harden------Eckersley
---------------------Frei-----------------------

That honestly is still not a great lineup even though it makes use of the players we have. I assume a new CB is coming. The other spots that badly need upgrading are the clearly the FW spots. Id consider offloading one of Santos or Gordon since there is little point of having that many decent target men and only one average FW in Plata. The rest of the guys (Soolsma, Martina) have no business being in MLS.

-----Plata-----------Danny K-----------Soolsma------------
---------------------Santos-----------------------------------
------------Frings-------------Tchani------------------------
Borman----Williams-----Harden------Eckersley
---------------------Frei-----------------------

pretty close to yours, but Soolsma has been our most consistent offensive player so far this year he needs to start, JDG on the bench he just cant cut it in this league, Borman over Yourassowski since the latter loses his mind once or twice a game and santos in the middle to collect the balls Danny brings down

Stryker
06-30-2011, 11:37 AM
^ I believe if we get by Vancouver then they would be eligable in the next round.
As it stands, we are only in the canadian championship thus far, not CONCACAF.

Also of note I am firmly of the opinion that these signings can only help us in our hopes of getting Ecks to stay.

ArmenJBX
06-30-2011, 11:52 AM
a bit trivial perhaps, and proably mentioned elsewhere, but it seemed odd that Frings (I think it was) held up a shirt with number 22 on the back... seeing as that's Tchani's number and all.. maybe he gave it up ?

Tchani wants the number 10 I believe

bangersandmash
06-30-2011, 11:56 AM
Tchani wants the number 10 I believe

I'm surprised that Winter let them choose their own numbers. I thought he was on record as saying he wants his players wearing 1-11 so that everyone understands their role in the system. (it would also make it much easier to spot when someone was out of position!)

ensco
06-30-2011, 12:01 PM
I'm old school. The DM should wear the number 5.

kaos197O
06-30-2011, 12:29 PM
Tchani wants the number 10 I believe
He'll be wearing 32 from what I've been told!

ArmenJBX
06-30-2011, 12:35 PM
I wonder if there's going to be a number reshuffle next year.
If it's 1-11, we don't have a starting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, or 11....

ag futbol
06-30-2011, 12:55 PM
-----Plata-----------Danny K-----------Soolsma------------
---------------------Santos-----------------------------------
------------Frings-------------Tchani------------------------
Borman----Williams-----Harden------Eckersley
---------------------Frei-----------------------

pretty close to yours, but Soolsma has been our most consistent offensive player so far this year he needs to start, JDG on the bench he just cant cut it in this league, Borman over Yourassowski since the latter loses his mind once or twice a game and santos in the middle to collect the balls Danny brings down
I dunno ... we are on different pages.

Santos has been terrible at the AM spot thus far this season. He's better with his back to net and doesn't have much vision to start an attack or spray balls around.

I admit Yourassowski was pretty bad defensively back there but I hold out hope that he can settle down because he adds way more going forward than Borman.

As for Soolsma, he's good at breaking down really bad defenders but anytime we play a decent squad he is heavily outclassed. I also think that if you're going to play with a big target man in the middle and a really slow player out wide you make yourself rather easy to defend against.

jazzy
06-30-2011, 01:18 PM
Without question. At the very least, it illustrates that the new regime is capable of bringing in the type of high profile players that Mo Johnston was incapable of recruiting.

It also demonstrates that despite the abysmal track record, MLSE is in fact willing to invest in 3 designated players.

more importantly these players fill needs and are mutually important, as Winters states now searching for the third leader on D..So much better than just some single shining star who might sell tickets but but be a detriment to the system and team.........love the TEAM is the concept, couldn't give a shit about passing by Stars/personalities

TFCin110
06-30-2011, 03:14 PM
I think the thing that it impresses me the most is that these 2 signings make so much sense from a footballing stand point. Obviously, whether or not the players work out needs to be seen. But I am impressed that Mariner, Winter and De Klerk saw a need and addressed it. It's refreshing to see someone take some action when required.

Ultra & Proud
06-30-2011, 03:32 PM
-----Plata-----------Danny K-----------Santos------------
---------------------Frings-----------------------------------
------------JDG-------------Tchani------------------------
Sturgis----Williams-----Attakora------Eckersley
---------------------Frei-----------------------



When everyone is healthy I'd like to give this a whirl as a line up. This isn't bad. Also Sturgis could be subbed for Borman and vice versa. Of course a better CB would be a bonus but if Attakora can regain his form then I think we can compete with this line up.

Yohan
06-30-2011, 05:56 PM
Koevermans has potential to be just as good as Dichio was for TFC.

I'm not sure how comfortable Frings is at AM, but if he's the box to box mid that can do the job, I'd be happy. Though you do have to wonder if he's got the legs to play box to box at 34 and he'll end up being more of a DM. Either way, I expect a lot of good things from him. At least we have a free kick taker lol

Bring in a CB and another AM, and I'm happy with TFC roster for this year.

greatwhitenorf
06-30-2011, 06:06 PM
So will the merchandise kiosks be re-named Frings & Things?

Shakes McQueen
06-30-2011, 06:36 PM
It'll be "Frings 'n Things", haha

- Scott

TFCin110
06-30-2011, 06:46 PM
Rome wasn't built in a day and this is Winter putting his stamp on the team. I think the dutch players he brought in at the start of the year was more a case of not having any players on the roster and needing to fill holes ASAP. Now that he has had some time I bet he is building on his player/agent contacts and will be bringing in players he wants. Lets not forget that Winter has always said that building through the academy is ultimately how he wants to construct his squad. Yes he will have to fill holes by bringing in from outside TFC, but he wants the spine of the squad to be groomed in the academy.

jazzy
06-30-2011, 07:56 PM
I dunno ... we are on different pages.

Santos has been terrible at the AM spot thus far this season. He's better with his back to net and doesn't have much vision to start an attack or spray balls around.

I admit Yourassowski was pretty bad defensively back there but I hold out hope that he can settle down because he adds way more going forward than Borman.

As for Soolsma, he's good at breaking down really bad defenders but anytime we play a decent squad he is heavily outclassed. I also think that if you're going to play with a big target man in the middle and a really slow player out wide you make yourself rather easy to defend against.

Yourassowski has to go, no skills, he just runs around like a fool, harsh yes but tired of players that can't hold up a ball,I mean did you witness his two excellant scoring chances that were just horrible,.. Borman on the other hand has moments of brilliance with his forward rushes and excellent crosses...unfortunately getting caught out of position on occasion

Jenkins12
06-30-2011, 09:39 PM
Haven't seen alot of him, but has Oscar Cordon got much of a future in the MLS?

Yohan
06-30-2011, 09:55 PM
Haven't seen alot of him, but has Oscar Cordon got much of a future in the MLS?
as much as any prospect has in MLS? the kid's got a lot of upside, but he really needs to bulk up or develop some mean in him to deal with physicality of MLS

torontocelt
06-30-2011, 11:26 PM
Catching up late on all this crazy news.
Intriguing. Got extremely excited when I saw we signed Torsten Frings. Scored what I believe to be the nicest World Cup goal in 2006. I don't have a problem with this signing even at his age. There are a lot of good things that can come out of this. His experience will be invaluable.

I think people are overhyping Koevermans though as a high profile player. Personally he's nowhere near that in my mind. But we'll see how he performs on the pitch. I do worry that all three of our DPs are a bit old. I know JDG isn't that old but he plays like he is.

If these two guys don't work out TFC is in deeeeep doodo.

I cant say I am entirely convinced these guys will turn the team around, i will say I am quite happy though that MLSE have spent some cash though. Desite his age Frings has still racked up many games recently which means he is far from done. Danny could prove to be a good signing but what about Gordon, with the system he might not get much playing time although he has been injured a lot anyway. Gordon has surprised me this season and it would be shame to drop him altogether but I cannot see how he can fit into the system with Danny at the same time? There can be no more excuses for Winter and DeGuz now, if they flunk the rest of the season then that will say a lot about their respective abilities in their current posts, good luck to them both though.

Couchy81
07-01-2011, 01:03 AM
There can be no more excuses for Winter and DeGuz now, if they flunk the rest of the season then that will say a lot about their respective abilities in their current posts, good luck to them both though.

I wrote this whole long argument about why this quote was retarded, but then I decided shiet I'm too drunk.

Anyways, if you want to lump someone in the same category as DeGuz for failure, how about anyone on the team from the Preki era?

It's like putting new tires on a beater and saying why isn't my car going faster. Blame the tires if you want but it's all about the engine at this point.

J .
07-01-2011, 01:20 AM
-----LW-----------Danny K-----------RW------------
---------------------AM-----------------------------------
------------Frings-------------JDG------------------------
Borman----Williams/Attakora-----CD------Eckersley
---------------------Frei-----------------------

We are almost on our way I think to having a decent MLS side. I dont think Plata is ready to start, though he is good off the bench, nor is Soolsma good enough to play against top MLS sides and Martina hasnt checked into a game in months. Santos is really now our third striker I would say behind Gordon and Danny K. Borman has gotten better and with someone to act as a "general" on the backline, I think we could be on our way to being a better side. In a way it would also be good for Tchani to not have to play every game and I would have him following Frings around like a lost puppy. Are their many other CM pairings better than the potential of the Frings/JDG combo? I hope it works out and JDG turns it around.

The team isnt there yet and it can go either way at this point.

CSO_BBTB
07-01-2011, 01:38 AM
-----Plata-----------Danny K-----------Soolsma------------
---------------------Santos-----------------------------------
------------Frings-------------Tchani------------------------
Borman----Williams-----Harden------Eckersley
---------------------Frei-----------------------

Agree with this almost completely. Yourassowsky might edge out Borman at left back eventually and somebody new might enter the equation at centre back based on a trade. Prime candidates to move on would be Peterson and Sturgis. Gordon might also fall into that category given Santos could be shifted up front and there are plenty of other possible permutations in midfield if anything untoward happened to Koevermans. If Winter still doesn't rate the NCAA draft too highly it will be interesting to see if draft picks will be traded for something like an additional international roster spot and/or allocation money.

torontocelt
07-01-2011, 06:35 AM
I wrote this whole long argument about why this quote was retarded, but then I decided shiet I'm too drunk.

Anyways, if you want to lump someone in the same category as DeGuz for failure, how about anyone on the team from the Preki era?

It's like putting new tires on a beater and saying why isn't my car going faster. Blame the tires if you want but it's all about the engine at this point.

Winter results so far have been crap, this is the worse team we have seen bar none. This team has racked up 8 points less than Preki's last season. Winter fans say that this is because it is not his team despite him signing a whole heap of players. Winter has now signed two experienced DP's giving him 3 DP's overall, this I believe is the most DP'd an MLS team has ever had at one time. Money has been splashed to give him every chance possible to succeed, if he cannot start racking up way more points in the second half of the season then I would say he will have proven that he is not the man for the job, ie manager / head coach.

DeGuz fans have said that he does not have the players around him to succeed, no one is on the same level. We guess what DeGuz you now have a midfield partner who has a far greater pedigree than you and a striker who has had a better overall career also. DeGuz is way beyond his last chance for me but others cling to the hope that he is going to work out, cling to the hope that he might look like a player worth $1.7m, well he now has a lot of help out there, it is being laid on a plate for him to succeed, lets see if he can take this opportunity.

What exactly is retarded about either of these opinions? Also why would I have to lump another Preki player in with DeGuz when mentioning failure, do you even realise that Winter's players have a worse record so far than Preki's players?

Oldtimer
07-01-2011, 08:14 AM
What exactly is retarded about either of these opinions? Also why would I have to lump another Preki player in with DeGuz when mentioning failure, do you even realise that Winter's players have a worse record so far than Preki's players?

It's the spine of the team that counts. The 2 new DP signings are what will see the start of Winter's team. Once he fixes the defense, the spine will be in shape. Saying that's he's replaced a few peripheral players is like saying that someone waiting for spinal surgery should be OK because both his big toe and his left pinky were operated on already.

ag futbol
07-01-2011, 08:32 AM
-----LW-----------Danny K-----------RW------------
---------------------AM-----------------------------------
------------Frings-------------JDG------------------------
Borman----Williams/Attakora-----CD------Eckersley
---------------------Frei-----------------------

We are almost on our way I think to having a decent MLS side. I dont think Plata is ready to start, though he is good off the bench, nor is Soolsma good enough to play against top MLS sides and Martina hasnt checked into a game in months. Santos is really now our third striker I would say behind Gordon and Danny K. Borman has gotten better and with someone to act as a "general" on the backline, I think we could be on our way to being a better side. In a way it would also be good for Tchani to not have to play every game and I would have him following Frings around like a lost puppy. Are their many other CM pairings better than the potential of the Frings/JDG combo? I hope it works out and JDG turns it around.

The team isnt there yet and it can go either way at this point.
I agree with this.

The good news is we have some depth in midfield to play with and the CF spot.

But at the same time having Santos, Gordon, and koevermans on the same team is a little too luxurious for a MLS side that is badly lacking in some other areas, namely the FW spots you mentioned.

TFCREDNWHITE
07-01-2011, 08:37 AM
Can frings n koevermans play today in the NCC?

menefreghista
07-01-2011, 08:41 AM
Can frings n koevermans play today in the NCC?

No. We should sticky this question.

The rosters of eligible players were handed in at the start of the tournament. We can't just sign players 4 days before the last game and throw them in.

If we qualify for the Champions League than they will both be available.

ag futbol
07-01-2011, 08:43 AM
It's the spine of the team that counts. The 2 new DP signings are what will see the start of Winter's team. Once he fixes the defense, the spine will be in shape. Saying that's he's replaced a few peripheral players is like saying that someone waiting for spinal surgery should be OK because both his big toe and his left pinky were operated on already.
This is disingenuous at best. He's literally brought in more than half the players we have on the current roster. That includes positions that are important on any team and international slots. So what are you saying here? we shouldn't expect to be out of last place until he signs a whole new team.

Face facts, management has already brought in a fair amount of players and the quality hasn't been great. Those DP signings are their major moves but the other players they signed will inevitably have to be replaced AGAIN in most cases because they haven't worked out.

menefreghista
07-01-2011, 08:45 AM
but the other players they signed will inevitably have to be replaced AGAIN in most cases because they haven't worked out.

For the apologists and excuse makers, the bar is always lowered. I'm sure when those Winter players are replaced they will find a new excuse if we don't do well.

TFCREDNWHITE
07-01-2011, 08:49 AM
No. We should sticky this question.

The rosters of eligible players were handed in at the start of the tournament. We can't just sign players 4 days before the last game and throw them in.

If we qualify for the Champions League than they will both be available.

Thanks!

menefreghista
07-01-2011, 08:50 AM
Thanks!

Just to add to that. They can't play until July 15. So they also won't be playing in our July 6 and 9 MLS matches.

TFCtoMUFC
07-01-2011, 08:52 AM
Just to add to that. They can't play until July 15. So they also won't be playing in our July 6 and 9 MLS matches.

In the press conference Winter said their first game would be at home against FC Dallas on the 20th.

menefreghista
07-01-2011, 08:53 AM
In the press conference Winter said their first game would be at home against FC Dallas on the 20th.

Which makes sense because our first game after July 15th transfer window opening is on July 20th.

torontocelt
07-01-2011, 09:05 AM
For the apologists and excuse makers, the bar is always lowered. I'm sure when those Winter players are replaced they will find a new excuse if we don't do well.

We all want Winter to do well but why people feel the need to continously make up excuses for the man baffles me. If he fails with 3 Dp's on his team and a whole heap of other players he has brought in himself then he is clearly not the man for the job. If this happens what will be the next excuses rolled out for him?

Carts
07-01-2011, 09:05 AM
So I'm at the presser on Wednesday, and we're in the question and answer period, and I'm so close to asking this...

+ "Welcome to Toronto guys, what supporters really want to know is, are you guys gonna tear this league up?"

If I had won LottoMax and didn't need a career - I would have, just for the reaction here LOL

ag futbol
07-01-2011, 09:13 AM
We all want Winter to do well but why people feel the need to continously make up excuses for the man baffles me. If he fails with 3 Dp's on his team and a whole heap of other players he has brought in himself then he is clearly not the man for the job. If this happens what will be the next excuses rolled out for him?
Agreed, I want him to be successful as well and I think there is still plenty of time for him to be successful. Nobody is saying we should be pulling the trigger or that he can't be a good manager, they are just pointing out the obvious: performance to date has not been great.

menefreghista
07-01-2011, 09:14 AM
We all want Winter to do well but why people feel the need to continously make up excuses for the man baffles me. If he fails with 3 Dp's on his team and a whole heap of other players he has brought in himself then he is clearly not the man for the job. If this happens what will be the next excuses rolled out for him?

Well, the playoffs are already pretty much out of reach. Unless we all of a sudden start reeling off wins.

So we are going to have to mostly rely on how the team looks. For a lot of the fanbase that may not be enough.

Of course if we win Saturday we can judge the team on its CCL performance.

Oldtimer
07-01-2011, 10:02 AM
I haven't yet whether Winter is a good coach. He may be good, he may be crap.

Preki's strategy didn't require skilled players, so I don't compare the two. His strategy would have sorta worked in 2005 but wouldn't work now.

Winter deserves enough time to get the spine of his team together and have them gel. Most people were willing to give Mo Johnston 3 seasons... now giving Winter half-of one season to turn the club around is being an "apologist?" That's just ridiculous. I know after 4 years of frustration most of us want the team to win now. I really do, I'm fed up, but its really too early to judge Winter.

JuliquE
07-01-2011, 10:04 AM
For the apologists and excuse makers, the bar is always lowered. I'm sure when those Winter players are replaced they will find a new excuse if we don't do well.
Since the beginning of time, the "apologists" have been saying the same things about Winter.. but there will always be some who choose to ignore or omit this fact and claim everything said is a "new excuse."

What you guys keep referring to as Winter's "signings" have been mostly warm bodies, available on the quick -- OF COURSE they will need upgrading, whenever possible. Don't forget that he didn't have a decent core of quality that just wasn't managing to string results together, like with NYRB and Backe.

I also believe that many here don't quite grasp the impact of losing De Ro, our starting AM.. in a system so heavily reliant on all the pieces to be there and running like clockwork, no less. When Winter arrived, the mantra was that De Ro was a crucial piece. It was only after the situation worsened that his view changed, but there wasn't a whole lot he could have done at that late stage (after all the rot had set in, from previous seasons).

Should he still be held accountable: absolutely.. I just feel like these are some important bits to remember, though.

Pigfynn
07-01-2011, 10:07 AM
I haven't yet whether Winter is a good coach. He may be good, he may be crap.

Preki's strategy didn't require skilled players, so I don't compare the two. His strategy would have sorta worked in 2005 but wouldn't work now.

Winter deserves enough time to get the spine of his team together and have them gel. Most people were willing to give Mo Johnston 3 seasons... now giving Winter half-of one season to turn the club around is being an "apologist?" That's just ridiculous. I know after 4 years of frustration most of us want the team to win now. I really do, I'm fed up, but its really too early to judge Winter.

Absolutely bang on.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-01-2011, 10:11 AM
I haven't yet whether Winter is a good coach. He may be good, he may be crap.

Preki's strategy didn't require skilled players, so I don't compare the two. His strategy would have sorta worked in 2005 but wouldn't work now.

Winter deserves enough time to get the spine of his team together and have them gel. Most people were willing to give Mo Johnston 3 seasons... now giving Winter half-of one season to turn the club around is being an "apologist?" That's just ridiculous. I know after 4 years of frustration most of us want the team to win now. I really do, I'm fed up, but its really too early to judge Winter.

Yep exactly. I'd be livid if they dumped Winter (not so much if De Klerk officialy took over as coach and Winter upstairs, which I believe is currently the case in everything but name)

ag futbol
07-01-2011, 10:40 AM
Winter deserves enough time to get the spine of his team together and have them gel. Most people were willing to give Mo Johnston 3 seasons... now giving Winter half-of one season to turn the club around is being an "apologist?" That's just ridiculous. I know after 4 years of frustration most of us want the team to win now. I really do, I'm fed up, but its really too early to judge Winter.
Now where did anybody say he should only get half a season? Find me that quote.

The point everyone is making is rather simple. If this was a class, Winter is maybe 20% way through the work. But he hasn't done well on what's been completed thus far.

And yes that part about "peripheral players" does come off as apologetic. Think about it, are there not a fair number of roles filled by Winter already that HAVE to be important to the team? Did he do an adequate job of identifying talent to address those needs thus far? Have players like Martina, Soolsma, and Stevanovic shown to be the players we need (or needed) them to be in those roles?

Whether it's FCD, RSL, or RBNY those those teams have shown to be more than adequate squads without their best players on the field. So Winter can't just be absolved of any responsibility for half a season of performance as futile as we've just seen when he has brought in half a roster of players.

ManUtd4ever
07-01-2011, 10:57 AM
Now where did anybody say he should only get half a season? Find me that quote.

The point everyone is making is rather simple. If this was a class, Winter is maybe 20% way through the work. But he hasn't done well on what's been completed thus far.

And yes that part about "peripheral players" does come off as apologetic. Think about it, are there not a fair number of roles filled by Winter already that HAVE to be important to the team? Did he do an adequate job of identifying talent to address those needs thus far? Have players like Martina, Soolsma, and Stevanovic shown to be the players we need (or needed) them to be in those roles?

Whether it's FCD, RSL, or RBNY those those teams have shown to be more than adequate squads without their best players on the field. So Winter can't just be absolved of any responsibility for half a season of performance as futile as we've just seen when he has brought in half a roster of players.

I can agree with your sentiments in general, but keep in mind that Winter and Mariner did not have as much time as their MLS colleagues to assemble the roster during the off season. I think for that reason, they deserve some slack regarding the players that were acquired prior to the transfer window.

For the record, I still believe the collective pedigree of the majority of players that have been acquired by the new management regime prior to Frings and Koevermans is good enough to comprise a solid supporting cast for a competitive squad.

Ossington Mental Youth
07-01-2011, 11:18 AM
Exactly the majority of players are supporting cast, we need aa few more quality players to contend regularly, we are on our way with Frings and Koevermans. I think once we've dumped a few players in the off season we will see those signings and it'll reflect on the over all play

Yohan
07-01-2011, 11:19 AM
Exactly the majority of players are supporting cast, we need aa few more quality players to contend regularly, we are on our way with Frings and Koevermans. I think once we've dumped a few players in the off season we will see those signings and it'll reflect on the over all play
I'm giving winter until beginning of next season to see what kind of players he'll sign.

end of summer transfer window should give good indication though

CSO_BBTB
07-01-2011, 11:39 AM
There's very little scope to do more now where this upcoming window is concerned because all the DP roster spots are filled and the six discovery signings for 2011 have been used. Odds on we'll see some sort of trade for a centre back based on some sort of combination of surplus players (Peterson, Sturgis and Gordon prime suspects) and/or draft picks. The final phase of the rebuild will have to wait until the winter window when more money should be freed up as certain large contracts that have been part of the ongoing legacy of the old managerial regime expire (hopefully including JDG's) and the requirement to pay down the cap hit elsewhere on Barrett and DeRosario comes to an end.

Pigfynn
07-01-2011, 11:50 AM
I'm quite sure Paul Mariner would love to publicly say to everyone "Wait till next year, you'll see what I can do then" mainly because there will be huge dollars coming off the cap, like DeGuzman, Barrett's salary, maybe more of DeRo's..anyone else?

He won't say that though because that would be upper management admitting that this season is done and the results are not important.

menefreghista
07-01-2011, 01:02 PM
I also believe that many here don't quite grasp the impact of losing De Ro

As someone against getting rid of De Rosario, I understand this completely.


Most people were willing to give Mo Johnston 3 seasons. .

Well I wasn't one of those people. I though he should have been fired after Montreal won the first NCC.

Couchy81
07-01-2011, 02:17 PM
Winter results so far have been crap, this is the worse team we have seen bar none. This team has racked up 8 points less than Preki's last season. Winter fans say that this is because it is not his team despite him signing a whole heap of players. Winter has now signed two experienced DP's giving him 3 DP's overall, this I believe is the most DP'd an MLS team has ever had at one time. Money has been splashed to give him every chance possible to succeed, if he cannot start racking up way more points in the second half of the season then I would say he will have proven that he is not the man for the job, ie manager / head coach.

DeGuz fans have said that he does not have the players around him to succeed, no one is on the same level. We guess what DeGuz you now have a midfield partner who has a far greater pedigree than you and a striker who has had a better overall career also. DeGuz is way beyond his last chance for me but others cling to the hope that he is going to work out, cling to the hope that he might look like a player worth $1.7m, well he now has a lot of help out there, it is being laid on a plate for him to succeed, lets see if he can take this opportunity.

What exactly is retarded about either of these opinions? Also why would I have to lump another Preki player in with DeGuz when mentioning failure, do you even realise that Winter's players have a worse record so far than Preki's players?

Well some responses above mine have addressed it probably better than I have, but the bottom line for my response is this:

You are judging half a season of Winter/Mariner with an incomplete team (of their creation) and a boatload of injuries, and giving them an ultimatum for a season we all know is a writeoff to begin with. Judging them on anything less than a full year of play in addition to a full offseason to address glaring weaknesses is being short sighted.

Secondly, DeGuzman has been a less than stellar DP for a player with his credentials, and his failure and the failure of his teammates from last season shouldn't roll over into how Winter is now driving at the head of the failboat. You should lump other Preki-era players in with DeGuz because they are also failing this year.

Have Winter's player choices from the 2 months leading into the start of this season been sub par? Yes a few have. But there are others which haven't.

We all need to be realists in this situation, the only ones apologizing should be upper management.

rocker
07-01-2011, 03:26 PM
Whether it's FCD, RSL, or RBNY those those teams have shown to be more than adequate squads without their best players on the field.

But that's an unfair comparison. FCD and RSL (Hyndman and Kreis) didn't have success immediately. Yes, they have had success without their best players this year, but they took 3 years to build those teams to the point that they could survive injuries. In other words, if you took RSL or Dallas in 2008, you wouldn't be able to say that.

My expectation is that, as in Dallas and Salt Lake, Winter will weed out the players that don't work out, keep adding new guys as replacements, and next year the team should be fairly competitive.

One thing people seem to forget is TFC has gone with a youth movement. Right now we don't have any player playing who is over 30 years old (Bouchiba is out... De Guz has been out... Cann is out...). Of course experience matters, and when you've got talented but inexperienced players in a league like this, it's going to be tough. One mistake by a kid and you lose in tight games.

torontocelt
07-01-2011, 09:04 PM
Well some responses above mine have addressed it probably better than I have, but the bottom line for my response is this:

You are judging half a season of Winter/Mariner with an incomplete team (of their creation) and a boatload of injuries, and giving them an ultimatum for a season we all know is a writeoff to begin with. Judging them on anything less than a full year of play in addition to a full offseason to address glaring weaknesses is being short sighted.


I am willing to give them a year, never said I wasn't. I am simply saying that so far their record has been abysmal and the worst win per game ratio we have seen at TFC, this I believe to be true. A good manager takes the players he has at his disposal and makes them better. I cannot think of one Preki player he has improved? Cann, who was player of the year is worse, Attakora is worse, Gargan is worse, DeGuz I would say may be worse, Santos is pretty much the same, Frei is pretty much the same, Ty Harden I would say has regressed slightly, Peterson is just as crap as he ever was. Winter I think has now brought in 14 players or so, that is a complete team plus three subs, this is his team. How many more signings does he need to make before this is his team?

torontocelt
07-01-2011, 09:08 PM
Secondly, DeGuzman has been a less than stellar DP for a player with his credentials, and his failure and the failure of his teammates from last season shouldn't roll over into how Winter is now driving at the head of the failboat. You should lump other Preki-era players in with DeGuz because they are also failing this year.

Have Winter's player choices from the 2 months leading into the start of this season been sub par? Yes a few have. But there are others which haven't.

We all need to be realists in this situation, the only ones apologizing should be upper management.

As For DeGuz, I wasn't really judging Winter directly based on DeGuz other than DeGuz has probably regressed even further under Winter. What I was mainly judging DeGuz on is if he cannot perform to a high standard in a team with three DP's and a midfield partner who has 80 odd caps for Germany then surely he has and no one else should have any excuses left for him, I dont really understand why you are taking anything different from what i am meaning?

Shakes McQueen
07-01-2011, 09:17 PM
As For DeGuz, I wasn't really judging Winter directly based on DeGuz other than DeGuz has probably regressed even further under Winter. What I was mainly judging DeGuz on is if he cannot perform to a high standard in a team with three DP's and a midfield partner who has 80 odd caps for Germany then surely he has and no one else should have any excuses left for him, I dont really understand why you are taking anything different from what i am meaning?

I don't think JDG has regressed under Winter. He looks pretty much the same as last year to me.

- Scott

Roogsy
07-01-2011, 09:31 PM
I obviously share the same concerns as torontocelt. Neither of us are ignoring the fact that the team at Winter's disposal is not good enough or incomplete. BUT that should not take either Winter or Mariner off the hook and I think that is where the headscratching comes from on our side. A GOOD coach takes what he has and "endures" until reinforcements arrive. That's what Arena did with the Galaxy when he arrived and his best players were not available till mid-summer. And then you have the argument that the team was incomplete not because of any other reason but Winter and Mariner themselves. They did not need to start the year undertalented nor understaffed. It was not necessary for the "rebuild". In my opinion, they "wear" this poor record themselves, nobody else.

ginkster88
07-01-2011, 09:45 PM
I obviously share the same concerns as torontocelt. Neither of us are ignoring the fact that the team at Winter's disposal is not good enough or incomplete. BUT that should not take either Winter or Mariner off the hook and I think that is where the headscratching comes from on our side. A GOOD coach takes what he has and "endures" until reinforcements arrive. That's what Arena did with the Galaxy when he arrived and his best players were not available till mid-summer. And then you have the argument that the team was incomplete not because of any other reason but Winter and Mariner themselves. They did not need to start the year undertalented nor understaffed. It was not necessary for the "rebuild". In my opinion, they "wear" this poor record themselves, nobody else.

...but they still would have been undertalented had they kept Preki-era holdovers, and those players would like have been pylons on the practice pitch.

Seriously, having Hscanovics, Saric, Usanov, Gala, Ibrahim, Garcia, Gomez and OBW wouldn't have made this year any less difficult.

The only old faces that could have helped are Barrett and LaBrocca.

I agree with the idea that the club needed to be stripped down and put back together with the right pieces - or at least with players who looked like the right pieces.

Guys like Soolsma, Martina, Zavarise aren't the long term answer, but they are at least capable of playing as they are supposed to within Winter's system. I don't believe any of the players released (again, besides Barrett and LaBrocca) met that standard.

CSO_BBTB
07-01-2011, 09:49 PM
....They did not need to start the year undertalented nor understaffed. It was not necessary for the "rebuild". In my opinion, they "wear" this poor record themselves, nobody else.

Translation they should have kept DeRosario and given him the DP money Koevermans is getting. The reality is probably that events prior to the arrival of the new management team had created an atmosphere where that would have been highly problematic. Time to move on now surely? For better or worse the future now revolves around Frings and Koevermans and the new regime will stand and fall based on what happens next season once the remaining holdover contract commitments have expired (and some of the more marginal signings that had to be rushed this season have been waived) freeing up money to significantly upgrade the supporting cast.

ginkster88
07-01-2011, 09:55 PM
Translation they should have kept DeRosario and given him the DP money Koevermans is getting. The reality is probably that events prior to the arrival of the new management team had created an atmosphere where that would have been highly problematic. Time to move on now surely? For better or worse the future now revolves around Frings and Koevermans and the new regime will stand and fall based on what happens next season once the remaining holdover contract commitments have expired (and some of the more marginal signings that had to be rushed this season have been waived) freeing up money to significantly upgrade the supporting cast.


^^^^THIS!

The new FO should/will be judged on its 2nd year squad and results. And I love what they're putting together. The quality of player that has been brought in is truly impressive and I have great faith that they will find more great value to play alongside:

Gordon
Plata
Eckersley
Frings
Koevermans
Tchani
Williams

Those are all new faces and like that list; depending on how you rate Borman he could be on that list as well. Don't forget we can expect another addition to the backline in July... and I think I believe something coming from TFC FO for the first time in 5 years.

Compare that list to any list of players acquired by Mo and tell me how they stack up.

Give this group until next season, they clearly have a plan and are sticking to it.

torontocelt
07-01-2011, 09:55 PM
I don't think JDG has regressed under Winter. He looks pretty much the same as last year to me.

- Scott

Well at the moment he cannot even get a game due to 'his injury' so I would say he has regressed. We can definitely state he has not improved anyway and good managers should be able to get more out of their players.

ginkster88
07-01-2011, 09:57 PM
Well at the moment he cannot even get a game due to 'his injury' so I would say he has regressed. We can definitely state he has not improved anyway and good managers should be able to get more out of their players.

If the player doesn't want to play and has investigated buying himself out there are more factors to consider than management ability.

Roogsy
07-01-2011, 09:57 PM
Nope. Not at all. I would gladly have accepted the DeRo trade PRIOR to the beginning of the season so long as other players were brought in at the same time, not after we've pretty much written off the season. I'd appreciate it if you guys stop insinuating things that are not true.

And bringing in players when our season wasn't already in the tank is exactly why I think judging current management solely on "next year" is a cop-out. Yes they should be judged on next year but giving them a free pass on this year is ludicrous because it was unecessary.

torontocelt
07-01-2011, 10:00 PM
If the player doesn't want to play and has investigated buying himself out there are more factors to consider than management ability.

I have never read anything about DeGuz not wanting to play or indeed buying himself out of his contract, where is the proof of this? Either way DeGuz has dropped even more in value this season, Winter has not been able to improve him as a player, not at all.

CSO_BBTB
07-01-2011, 10:07 PM
The summer is window is when the best deals are to be had in Europe on high profile Bosman free transfers because that's when most contracts expire. Better to wait and get the best available options if it means a poor season followed by two good ones rather than rushing into the international transfer market and getting three more mediocre seasons.

torontocelt
07-01-2011, 10:07 PM
^^^^THIS!

The new FO should/will be judged on its 2nd year squad and results. And I love what they're putting together. The quality of player that has been brought in is truly impressive and I have great faith that they will find more great value to play alongside:

Gordon
Plata
Eckersley
Frings
Koevermans
Tchani
Williams

Those are all new faces and like that list; depending on how you rate Borman he could be on that list as well. Don't forget we can expect another addition to the backline in July... and I think I believe something coming from TFC FO for the first time in 5 years.

Compare that list to any list of players acquired by Mo and tell me how they stack up.

Give this group until next season, they clearly have a plan and are sticking to it.

I'm not sticking up for Mo but he wasn't allowed one DP in his team as a coach. As a GM type he did get one DP, Mariner / Winter now have three. It does kind of twist your claim a bit. On top of that Mo did sign Dichio, Robinson, Frei, even Jimmy B was decent enough. He was also able to flog Edu for quite big money and signed DeRo. Each of the managers have signed some decent talent, Winter has had a lot of financial backing now so his list should indeed look better.

torontocelt
07-01-2011, 10:09 PM
Nope. Not at all. I would gladly have accepted the DeRo trade PRIOR to the beginning of the season so long as other players were brought in at the same time, not after we've pretty much written off the season. I'd appreciate it if you guys stop insinuating things that are not true.

And bringing in players when our season wasn't already in the tank is exactly why I think judging current management solely on "next year" is a cop-out. Yes they should be judged on next year but giving them a free pass on this year is ludicrous because it was unecessary.


I am very glad John Barnes wasn't given time to be judged on a second year at celtic and I think Rangers fans were very glad Paul LeGuen wasn't given a second year at Ibrox before he was judged.

Couchy81
07-01-2011, 10:16 PM
I am very glad John Barnes wasn't given time to be judged on a second year at celtic and I think Rangers fans were very glad Paul LeGuen wasn't given a second year at Ibrox before he was judged.

And I think we are all glad the same chance wasn't given to Preki :)

Once we got Klinnsman in town to help re-tool the future I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt for this season at a minimum. Hopefully we will see the fruits of this sooner rather than later, but I still think it would have taken nothing short of a miracle for anyone to come into this team post-Mo and make the playoffs with one transfer window.

Roogsy
07-01-2011, 10:23 PM
But people like me weren't expecting playoffs. We just wanted a competitive team that showed some heart not the turd sandwich we've seen so far this season. Blown out 6-2 at home? Winless for extended periods of time, and the only wins coming against the two expansion teams? If we sat in 11th or 12th I wouldn't be so unhappy. But among the worst in MLS? That's just not acceptable and I have yet to see justification why rebuilding also means sucking.

ensco
07-01-2011, 10:27 PM
All this "Frings is the centerpiece of the new strategy" talk leaves me cold.

Signing Frings is a huge roll of the dice. Maybe he's Angel or Schelotto, maybe he's Denilson or JDG.

Even Winter and Mariner don't know what they're getting with Frings. There's no predictor about how a foreign stud works out in this league.

ManUtd4ever
07-01-2011, 10:29 PM
^^^^THIS!

The new FO should/will be judged on its 2nd year squad and results. And I love what they're putting together. The quality of player that has been brought in is truly impressive and I have great faith that they will find more great value to play alongside:

Gordon
Plata
Eckersley
Frings
Koevermans
Tchani
Williams

Those are all new faces and like that list; depending on how you rate Borman he could be on that list as well. Don't forget we can expect another addition to the backline in July... and I think I believe something coming from TFC FO for the first time in 5 years.

Compare that list to any list of players acquired by Mo and tell me how they stack up.

Give this group until next season, they clearly have a plan and are sticking to it.

I have gone on record as saying that I thought this club (prior to the signing of Frings and Koevermans) was talented enough to earn one of the last playoff spots this season. Unfortunately, the club is well off that pace at this point of the season, but I would love to see what the roster is capable of if our regular starters are healthy for an extended period of time. It's not necessarily an excuse, but TFC's roster has been absolutely decimated by injuries this season.

CSO_BBTB
07-01-2011, 10:43 PM
I am very glad John Barnes wasn't given time to be judged on a second year at celtic and I think Rangers fans were very glad Paul LeGuen wasn't given a second year at Ibrox before he was judged.

There's no comparison between what happens with the Old Firm and in MLS. If the Old Firm had to operate on the same salary cap as clubs like Hearts and Kilmarnock they wouldn't be able to simply buy success based on having a much larger salary budget than their rivals and life would not be as simple as ditching the coach every time there is a slight dip in form.

Roogsy
07-01-2011, 10:51 PM
Strawman argument. His argument has nothing to do with the Old Firm's financial advantage over other SPL teams. His argument is solely directed at a team's expediency in realizing when a coach is out of his depth.

habstfc
07-01-2011, 10:57 PM
But people like me weren't expecting playoffs. We just wanted a competitive team that showed some heart not the turd sandwich we've seen so far this season.

We have been competitive, we have 3 wins and 9 ties out of 19 games. We've gotten points in 12 of 19 games. I know what you're saying though.

menefreghista
07-01-2011, 11:00 PM
We have been competitive, we have 3 wins and 9 ties out of 19 games. We've gotten points in 12 of 19 games. I know what you're saying though.

These numbers you claim as a positive are terrible.

On a points per game basis we are the 3rd worst team in the league. There is no positive way to spin that.

habstfc
07-01-2011, 11:04 PM
Roogsy said he wanted a competitive team, earning points in 12 of 19 is competitive in my eyes. Doesn't mean I'm overjoyed about it.

Whoop
07-01-2011, 11:04 PM
Celtic and Rangers are stable, and historic teams, that they can afford to drop a coach quickly if it's not working out. Same with Liverpool this year with Hodgson.

Prior to Le Guen, McLeish was at Rangers for 5-6 years, and prior to Hodgson, Liverpool had stability with Benitez.

I'd argue if Winter was TFC's 2nd coach as opposed to it's 6th, Winter likely wouldn't be here. But given the fact that the biggest thing that's needed in TFC is stability, the best thing to do is wait it out.

The more coaches you go through, the more difficult it will be to attract the next coach. What coach wants to come to an organization where, if he makes a misstep he doesn't know if he has the confidence of the FO or has to watch his back?

Roogsy
07-01-2011, 11:05 PM
I am sorry Habs, that does not say competitive to me. Especially when you dig deeper and look at game stats. For example, we won our last game and I will take an ugly win any day, but we were outplayed by Vancouver's B squad. What was our possession number in that game? And we're supposed to be playing a possession system. Our goal stats are horrendous. Worst differential in the league. One of the worst goals per game. And Frei is facing more shots than almost any keeper in the league.

I am sorry, but we have not been competitive. Hopefully the new players coming in give us something worth cheering about. But my disappointment also comes in the form that had we brought these guys in while sitting in 12th we might see playoffs. And I have to question whether a better coach would get more out of these guys than Winter will, making their signings dubious if the coach won't be able to use them to their max potential.

Shakes McQueen
07-01-2011, 11:13 PM
Celtic and Rangers are stable, and historic teams, that they can afford to drop a coach quickly if it's not working out. Same with Liverpool this year with Hodgson.

Prior to Le Guen, McLeish was at Rangers for 5-6 years, and prior to Hodgson, Liverpool had stability with Benitez.

I'd argue if Winter was TFC's 2nd coach as opposed to it's 6th, Winter likely wouldn't be here. But given the fact that the biggest thing that's needed in TFC is stability, the best thing to do is wait it out.

The more coaches you go through, the more difficult it will be to attract the next coach. What coach wants to come to an organization where, if he makes a misstep he doesn't know if he has the confidence of the FO or has to watch his back?

Agreed, Vic. It's also far easier to determine the abilities of a coach, when they are largely unencumbered by extensive transfer and salary restrictions.

- Scott

Yohan
07-01-2011, 11:20 PM
For example, we won our last game and I will take an ugly win any day, but we were outplayed by Vancouver's B squad. What was our possession number in that game? And we're supposed to be playing a possession system.

arguably, TFC ended up playing the "B" squad vs Vancouver too...

Roogsy
07-01-2011, 11:33 PM
I don't disagree. And we got the win. But more out of luck than anything. In essence our B squad was outplayed by their B squad. Our A squad was outplayed in Vancouver against their A squad. And before we were rained out, our A squad was en route to losing the NCC after being outplayed here. All this against an expansion team. And regardless if we manage to hold them off tomorrow, my point is that we can hardly call ourselves competitive if those are our results against an expansion side. That's all I am saying.

habstfc
07-01-2011, 11:37 PM
I am sorry Habs, that does not say competitive to me. Especially when you dig deeper and look at game stats. For example, we won our last game and I will take an ugly win any day, but we were outplayed by Vancouver's B squad. What was our possession number in that game? And we're supposed to be playing a possession system. Our goal stats are horrendous. Worst differential in the league. One of the worst goals per game. And Frei is facing more shots than almost any keeper in the league.

I am sorry, but we have not been competitive.

I guess we have a different definition of what being competitive means. To me getting points in 2 out of every 3 games is competitive. Is tying a game not being competitive in that game? It's not converting some of those ties into wins that's killing us. Sometimes you win when you don't deserve to and sometimes you lose when you don't deserve to. You can't really say any of the points we have obtained this year have been unwarranted? We have however given up points when we probably deserved to win (chicago game etc.) I agrre with you about the goal differential, when we lose we do it in style, like getting clobbered in the philly game and giving up 4 to vancouver in the opener. I think if we had a somewhat healthy lineup this year, especially Gordon, we probably would have 4 or 5 extra points up until this point. That's why I am not totally surprised by our standing and my willingness to give winter the benefit of the doubt.

backbeat
07-01-2011, 11:46 PM
I am sorry Habs, that does not say competitive to me. Especially when you dig deeper and look at game stats. For example, we won our last game and I will take an ugly win any day, but we were outplayed by Vancouver's B squad. What was our possession number in that game? And we're supposed to be playing a possession system. Our goal stats are horrendous. Worst differential in the league. One of the worst goals per game. And Frei is facing more shots than almost any keeper in the league.

I am sorry, but we have not been competitive. Hopefully the new players coming in give us something worth cheering about. But my disappointment also comes in the form that had we brought these guys in while sitting in 12th we might see playoffs. And I have to question whether a better coach would get more out of these guys than Winter will, making their signings dubious if the coach won't be able to use them to their max potential.

you are incredibly negative, no matter what Winter or MLSE does - you obviously never agreed with the Winter hiring and all you see, be it DeRo etc. is negative, negative, negative....

Winter/Mariner/MLSE made some bold moves this week that show direction and the willingness to spend in the Frings & Koevermans signing and the specific comments that more is to come.

we have 3 DPs and direction - you may not agree with the coach/management or direction - OBVIOUSLY, OBVIOUSLY, OBVIOUSLY....but this is where we're going and quite frankly i am happy that someone is taking the reigns - i am willing, as i stated and many others, to give this management team this season to pull it together - you may believe in the quick "MLS" immediate fix it/turn around but i do not. i would much rather have a system/style developed from the grass-routes up that produces year after year than a "MacDonald's" style immediate gratification solution...

does this discussion have to go on ad infinitum?

Roogsy
07-02-2011, 12:18 AM
Until results come, pretty much yeah.

torontocelt
07-02-2011, 06:46 AM
Agreed, Vic. It's also far easier to determine the abilities of a coach, when they are largely unencumbered by extensive transfer and salary restrictions.

- Scott

Like i said previously though a good coach improves the players he has at his disposal, regardless of anything else this is what they are supposed to do if indeed they are capable in their role. I cannot think of one Preki player that has actually improved under Winter, I am using Preki players as an example as they were here last season and we already know how well they played. In this instance I am not concerned with money to spend (Winter has just had two DP's signed though), I am not caring about inability to sign their own players (Winter has now signed 14 players), I am merely pointing oout that in my opinion I can not see any imporvement in a group of players who in some cases most people would agree have actually regressed under Winter. On top of that Winter record in the MLS which includes players he has signed for his team is abysmal, his win per game ratio is extremely low and the worst we have ever seen in our short history.

LesH
07-02-2011, 06:54 AM
I am willing to give them a year, never said I wasn't. I am simply saying that so far their record has been abysmal and the worst win per game ratio we have seen at TFC, this I believe to be true. A good manager takes the players he has at his disposal and makes them better. I cannot think of one Preki player he has improved? Cann, who was player of the year is worse, Attakora is worse, Gargan is worse, DeGuz I would say may be worse, Santos is pretty much the same, Frei is pretty much the same, Ty Harden I would say has regressed slightly, Peterson is just as crap as he ever was. Winter I think has now brought in 14 players or so, that is a complete team plus three subs, this is his team. How many more signings does he need to make before this is his team?


Spot on!
Really, Winter is allowed to change twice, and 50-50% of all the roster (if the whole roster is about 30) before you guys will say this is his team? WTF?

torontocelt
07-02-2011, 06:59 AM
Celtic and Rangers are stable, and historic teams, that they can afford to drop a coach quickly if it's not working out. Same with Liverpool this year with Hodgson.

Prior to Le Guen, McLeish was at Rangers for 5-6 years, and prior to Hodgson, Liverpool had stability with Benitez.

I'd argue if Winter was TFC's 2nd coach as opposed to it's 6th, Winter likely wouldn't be here. But given the fact that the biggest thing that's needed in TFC is stability, the best thing to do is wait it out.

The more coaches you go through, the more difficult it will be to attract the next coach. What coach wants to come to an organization where, if he makes a misstep he doesn't know if he has the confidence of the FO or has to watch his back?

I agree Whoop stability is needed, I am just saying that I am not happy with the job Winter has done and I am not convinced that he is the man to take us further. I do not make the decisions at TFC but if I did and results do not improve in the second half of the season when we have three DP's on our team then I would be willing to make the chop. I dont go by the we need stability rule if I cannot see any signs of improvement via results when we have three more DP's than some teams. The biggest problem this league has is there is no relegation, it seems to be the biggest problem with North American sports. Owners are not forced into giving a shit because they are not going to lose the same kind of revenues other teams in the world lose due to relegation. They now they will still be back next year regardless of results and if the team or manager sucks then is is okay as the same pressures do not exist. Obviously in the North America football is in its infancy and not enough people give a shit about relegation as the owners wouldn't invest but for me that is one of the big problems that exists.

123 elite
07-02-2011, 08:20 AM
The biggest problem this league has is there is no relegation, it seems to be the biggest problem with North American sports. Owners are not forced into giving a shit because they are not going to lose the same kind of revenues other teams in the world lose due to relegation. They now they will still be back next year regardless of results and if the team or manager sucks then is is okay as the same pressures do not exist. Obviously in the North America football is in its infancy and not enough people give a shit about relegation as the owners wouldn't invest but for me that is one of the big problems that exists.

Absolutely. It completely alters the way that people think as fans regarding the sport too. This idea of giving a season up for rebuilding just does not exist anywhere because the relegation issue is so huge. Thats one of the main reasons i can't think along those lines and can't accept it as an excuse.
I totally agree about the Preki players too. I wonder just how they came to the decisions to dump and bring in players. I was no fan of the likes of Hiscanovics and Usanov but I get the feeling that Mariner and co just drew a line through last years team and brought in a whole load of new players without a whole load of thought about where exactly weaknesses lay and have been tinkering around ever since then trying to get it right when they could have had as much success trying to mould a group of players that are at least familiar with each other. That just doesn't say good management no matter how you want to spin it.

123 elite
07-02-2011, 08:29 AM
Gordon
Plata
Eckersley
Frings
Koevermans
Tchani
Williams

Those are all new faces and like that list; depending on how you rate Borman he could be on that list as well. Don't forget we can expect another addition to the backline in July... and I think I believe something coming from TFC FO for the first time in 5 years.

Compare that list to any list of players acquired by Mo and tell me how they stack up.



2 of those players haven't even laced their training shoes yet but you have listed them a players you like. They actually have to play first to be a success. Reputation doesn't get you points. They COULD be a success but they don't desrve any praise until they have earned it. Remember Ljungberg?

In fact only Eckersley on that list has been a good signing so far based on performance. The others have had a combination of patchy performance and injury that really havn't given us the opportunity to make a good judgement of them.

prizby
07-02-2011, 08:50 AM
^ seriously...have you watched TFC play w/ Gordon and then without Gordon...just completely different

123 elite
07-02-2011, 08:57 AM
^ seriously...have you watched TFC play w/ Gordon and then without Gordon...just completely different

Yes. Just not enough yet though. I like what i see with Gordon but he's been injured too often to make a good judgement. Remember Guevara on fire at the start of the season 3 years back (? i think) then he fell away big time. Not sure yet if his contribution in the games i've seen is consistent. So i will reserve judgement till i see more. Which i hope is very very soon.
Plata too has been impressive but recently seems to spend a lot of his time on his arse and running into defenders that take the ball off him. So again i'll reserve judgement

jazzy
07-02-2011, 10:15 AM
Spot on!
Really, Winter is allowed to change twice, and 50-50% of all the roster (if the whole roster is about 30) before you guys will say this is his team? WTF?

those players mentioned can only play basically old school run and pass, not one can hold the ball for time to make smart onfield decisions....using patience! making your opponent respect you ...if you challenge me I have the skill to get around you so therefore you think twice about aggressively attacking me.............thats a control game soooo lacking in the ncaa or our development leagues.it is what Winter is used to and trying to do here......and he will........it is so tiresome to not see anyone on the team even control the ball, without making an horrible hastened pass usually giving up possesion ...We will succed thankfully getting rid of kick and chase, what has ruined North american soccer since inception

CSO_BBTB
07-02-2011, 10:27 AM
...I totally agree about the Preki players too. I wonder just how they came to the decisions to dump and bring in players. I was no fan of the likes of Hiscanovics and Usanov but I get the feeling that Mariner and co just drew a line through last years team and brought in a whole load of new players without a whole load of thought about where exactly weaknesses lay and have been tinkering around ever since then trying to get it right when they could have had as much success trying to mould a group of players that are at least familiar with each other. That just doesn't say good management no matter how you want to spin it.

You do realize that Earl Cochrane, Nick Dasovic and Jim Brennan were still in control of day to day operations on an interim basis when a lot of the key player personnel decisions over last season's roster were made don't you?

Gazza_55
07-02-2011, 01:52 PM
I obviously share the same concerns as torontocelt. Neither of us are ignoring the fact that the team at Winter's disposal is not good enough or incomplete. BUT that should not take either Winter or Mariner off the hook and I think that is where the headscratching comes from on our side. A GOOD coach takes what he has and "endures" until reinforcements arrive. That's what Arena did with the Galaxy when he arrived and his best players were not available till mid-summer. And then you have the argument that the team was incomplete not because of any other reason but Winter and Mariner themselves. They did not need to start the year undertalented nor understaffed. It was not necessary for the "rebuild". In my opinion, they "wear" this poor record themselves, nobody else.

Comparing our roster at the beginning of the season with the one Bruce Arena took over is like comparing Man U to Wolverhampton.

As for the second part. WOW!!
This team needed to be blown up. From the DP's on down. The only guy that will last the purge is Stefan Frei. And rightly so.

MG42
07-02-2011, 01:54 PM
The impact of these signings is amazing! 2 victories in a row!

Oldtimer
07-02-2011, 03:00 PM
The impact of these signings is amazing! 2 victories in a row!

Probably you're joking, but actually there can be a significant psychological boost just knowing that 2 very good players are coming in. The mental side of the game is very important.

JuliquE
07-02-2011, 03:04 PM
Probably you're joking, but actually there can be a significant psychological boost just knowing that 2 very good players are coming in. The mental side of the game is very important.
Exactly.

Aside from a couple of them seeing the team's willingness to bring proper players in and deciding to play for their jobs, they also won't want these big names coming in and thinking they're crap.

trane
07-03-2011, 04:53 AM
Frings is what a DM should be, and I think he can improve us going forward and defending. ( he is more physical then JDG, but if they play as a pair it should realy protect our back line and improve us going forward) I like the other signing because he is the big CF that can center the front line and score. This has to make us much better, unless they are both total bust. This should make us competitive in the CL and lead to at least a run at the playoffs.

CretanBull
07-03-2011, 05:19 AM
I haven't seen enough of Koevermans to make any sort of assessment, but Frings is the type of player that I'd expect to fit into the MLS relatively easily...not only is he not going to be put off by all the hacking and dirty plays, he's going to give opposing teams something to worry about themselves.

johntv
07-03-2011, 10:22 AM
Great signing.Just came back from Holland and spoke to my brother a key member of the AZ supporters group.Danny had some problems with VanGaal at AZ and this was all related to poor communications between the 2.Danny is a hero in Alkmaar and according to all those I spoke to a great player.

ManUtd4ever
07-03-2011, 10:39 AM
Great signing.Just came back from Holland and spoke to my brother a key member of the AZ supporters group.Danny had some problems with VanGaal at AZ and this was all related to poor communications between the 2.Danny is a hero in Alkmaar and according to all those I spoke to a great player.

I've read nothing but very positive reviews about Koevermans from Dutch supporters online. Suffice to say, he has the potential to be the best target man in TFC history.

All due respect to The Legend of course. :)

Laurignano
07-03-2011, 10:46 AM
I've read nothing but very positive reviews about Koevermans from Dutch supporters online. Suffice to say, he has the potential to be the best target man in TFC history.

All due respect to The Legend of course. :)

lol whoa...dont jinx him.

Gazza
07-03-2011, 10:49 AM
Frings is what a DM should be, and I think he can improve us going forward and defending. ( he is more physical then JDG, but if they play as a pair it should realy protect our back line and improve us going forward) I like the other signing because he is the big CF that can center the front line and score. This has to make us much better, unless they are both total bust. This should make us competitive in the CL and lead to at least a run at the playoffs.

We didn't get Gatusso, Frings is the next best thing;)

Oldtimer
07-08-2011, 08:07 AM
Good article on Frings:

http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/soccer/post/_/id/9296/galaxy-berhalter-high-on-frings



Berhalter, who played seven years in Germany, has played several times against Frings, 34, and calls him "an exceptional player" and an "eccentric."

"On the field, in his day, he was an absolute animal, but he's also skilled, and he's good going forward," Berhalter said. "He meant a lot to all the teams he played on [Alemannia Aachen, Werder Bremen, Borussia Dortmund and Bayern Munich]. ... The question is going to be how does he adapt to MLS, because it's not always easy for foreigners to adapt to MLS, especially guys from Europe. So we'll see. But he definitely has the quality, and I think if the set-up's right for him, he should do well."

Does Berhalter carry any personal animosity over the hand ball that was not called?

"Absolutely not. No," he replied. "I would have done the same thing."