Post Game Thread: RSL vs TFC

[__wowza]

didn't see the game, thanks a lot goal tv!
from the sounds of it, we got our asses handed to us.

[prizby]

to continue...

we have 29 players on the roster

Injury Report:
Bouchiba
Lindsay
Attakora
de Guzman
Cann
Gordon
Tchani
Peterson
Williams

Sturgis wasn't even 100% tonight

thats 20 players to choose from of which 3 are MLS rookies (from College) and 5 are recently signed academy players

you find me a team in the MLS that can win with that?

[Jeff s]

How does this explain why Gargan was playing winger?

These injuries just started happening recently. We were still playing like shit before it. So whats your point?

[volunteer]

there's always an excuse

[andyc]

Wow... This is interesting. Post game thread after another loss and no one cares...

Apathy kills sports franchises. TFC management really needs to worry now.


:(

[ArmenJBX]

The sun made us lose the game according to GolTV.
Christ, never heard commentary more aggravating than tonights. Yes, the sun is out. Yes, it's hard to see. No, RSL were not playing around the sun. They were playing possession football - see 70%.

If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't talk. Christ, GolTV, it's not good enough.

[Jeff s]

The sun made us lose the game according to GolTV.
Christ, never heard commentary more aggravating than tonights. Yes, the sun is out. Yes, it's hard to see. No, RSL were not playing around the sun. They were playing possession football - see 70%.

If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't talk. Christ, GolTV, it's not good enough.
lol THANK YOU. The commentary was shocking.

First half summary = The sun is in Frei's eyes
Second half summary = The fans are booing Eckersley.

[volunteer]

Wow... This is interesting. Post game thread after another loss and no one cares...

Apathy kills sports franchises. TFC management really needs to worry now.


:(

maybe people are tired of rehashing the same old post game convo for the millionth time. i ain't even mad anymore, really i'm more amused by the fact that a couple of posters in the pregame thread accurately predicted the score. :rofl::rofl:

[prizby]

How does this explain why Gargan was playing winger?

These injuries just started happening recently. We were still playing like shit before it. So whats your point?

like u said, these injuries happened recently...last time i checked this is also the first time Gargan has played the wing

[Couchy81]

There's nothing to really say, if you're pissed off because were not making the playoffs this year you're being a drama queen. This year was a given write off while we assemble a new team for a new coach.

[Soccerpro]

to continue...

we have 29 players on the roster

Injury Report:
Bouchiba
Lindsay
Attakora
de Guzman
Cann
Gordon
Tchani
Peterson
Williams

Sturgis wasn't even 100% tonight

thats 20 players to choose from of which 3 are MLS rookies (from College) and 5 are recently signed academy players

you find me a team in the MLS that can win with that?

Were TFC playing well before these players got injured?
What kind of impact have current injured players like De Guzman and Peterson had this year?
The only player that makes any difference at all, ever, is Alan Gordon and he's always out injured so how effective is he really?

The problem with your statement is NO ONE FORCED TFC TO SIGN 3 MLS ROOKIES FROM COLLEGE, 5 ACADEMY PLAYERS AND PLAYERS WHO ARE PERMANENTLY INJURED. THEY CHOSE TO DO SO ON THEIR OWN.

[prizby]

Were TFC playing well before these players got injured?
What kind of impact have current injured players like De Guzman and Peterson had this year?
The only player that makes any difference at all, ever, is Alan Gordon and he's always out injured so how effective is he really?

The problem with your statement is NO ONE FORCED TFC TO SIGN 3 MLS ROOKIES FROM COLLEGE, 5 ACADEMY PLAYERS AND PLAYERS WHO ARE PERMANENTLY INJURED. THEY CHOSE TO DO SO ON THEIR OWN.

well when they were signed, could you find someone unattached that would have

A. fit in the system Winter wanted to play
B. would fit under our salary cap
C. would have not taken us over our international allocation spots

[Roogsy]

well when they were signed, could you find someone unattached that would have

A. fit in the system Winter wanted to play
B. would fit under our salary cap
C. would have not taken us over our international allocation spots

Other teams don't seem to have problems filling their roster with more than benchwarmers.

[Dkolish3]

didn't see the game, thanks a lot goal tv!
from the sounds of it, we got our asses handed to us.

I actually posted a stream around the 65th minute of the game, but everyone was watching the infinitely more entertaining Gold Cup Final. I guess apathy has finally set in

[tfcocd]

Santos goal was well struck.

[Roogsy]

This will be my only significant contribution to this thread as I am sure that my absence will result in a tidal wave of positive comments that apparently my negativity has been denying this board for a long time. I look forward to reading these forthcoming comments.

TFC is now in sole possession of 17th place with Vancouver below us having a game in hand and a point behind with a better goal differential. In fact we have the worst goal differential in the league.

We are 2nd worst in goals scored per game.

Every team within our reach in the standings has between 1 and 3 games in hand on us.

To have a shot at 10th spot and a playoff berth, we'd need results of 1.6 points per game, better than 1 win out of every 2 games. A near impossibility for this team.

I know that playoffs this year is not a must. In a rebuilding year, it is not a reasonable demand. But 10th out of 18 teams is a decent measure of "average" at least. In other words, if we simply want to measure up to an "average" result this year TFC would have to achieve near heroic results the rest of the campaign, that is how far this team is from being average.

That kind of departure from even a nominal level of respectability should tell you how much of a failure this season has been.

If within this context, people really truly believe that I have been overly negative, well then I apologize. I apologize because I had no idea that Toronto FC fans are satisfied in being the league whipping boy. That any team that undergoes a scoring drought, all they have to do is visit TFC or have TFC visit them and they are provided a cure for their scoring woes.

Throughout this year, as my frustration with this team has grown, all I have asked is that somoene provide some sort of tangible evidence that helps the rest of us believe in this rebuild. Something that points to Winter and Mariner knowing what they are doing and putting it into effect. That this humiliating year is worth it because future years will be riddled with glory and success. Something that explains why this level of futility is necessary to achieve what we all want.

Somebody please, give me something to believe in. That is all I ask.

[prizby]

Other teams don't seem to have problems filling their roster with more than benchwarmers.

other teams also don't (try to) play a more advanced style of soccer

[volunteer]

:lol::smilielol5:

[TFCRegina]

Team was all kinds of suck tonight. No moreso than usual. Expected it to be 4-0 by half time. Through half the game. Will watch the 2nd half. Could be worse I suppose.

[Juanito]

This will be my only significant contribution to this thread as I am sure that my absence will result in a tidal wave of positive comments that apparently my negativity has been denying this board for a long time. I look forward to reading these forthcoming comments.

TFC is now in sole possession of 17th place with Vancouver below us having a game in hand and a point behind with a better goal differential. In fact we have the worst goal differential in the league.

We are 2nd worst in goals scored per game.

Every team within our reach in the standings has between 1 and 3 games in hand on us.

To have a shot at 10th spot and a playoff berth, we'd need results of 1.6 points per game, better than 1 win out of every 2 games. A near impossibility for this team.

I know that playoffs this year is not a must. In a rebuilding year, it is not a reasonable demand. But 10th out of 18 teams is a decent measure of "average" at least. In other words, if we simply want to measure up to an "average" result this year TFC would have to achieve near heroic results the rest of the campaign, that is how far this team is from being average.

That kind of departure from even a nominal level of respectability should tell you how much of a failure this season has been.

If within this context, people really truly believe that I have been overly negative, well then I apologize. I apologize because I had no idea that Toronto FC fans are satisfied in being the league whipping boy. That any team that undergoes a scoring drought, all they have to do is visit TFC or have TFC visit them and they are provided a cure for their scoring woes.

Throughout this year, as my frustration with this team has grown, all I have asked is that somoene provide some sort of tangible evidence that helps the rest of us believe in this rebuild. Something that points to Winter and Mariner knowing what they are doing and putting it into effect. That this humiliating year is worth it because future years will be riddled with glory and success. Something that explains why this level of futility is necessary to achieve what we all want.

Somebody please, give me something to believe in. That is all I ask.

Agree, agree, agree. I was watching the USA-MEXICO match, which was a HELL OF A LOT more entertaining but kept tabs on the SCHLOP that is TFC. If I had any decency, I would run away from the tripe that MLSE is trying to serve us as football .... it's an insult to our intelligence!

[Laurignano]

*sigh*

[Soccersteve]

We were under the gun from the opening minute but we didn't crack until late in the first.........................we lack confidence, skill & a passing game that seemed to be promised by a total football coach................

I'd like to see TFC deliver a winning season like many others but it won't happen until we use the ball wisely and play like a team who want to win................

playing scared in your own half is a recipe for failure................I'm red till I'm dead but we must start dominating in other ares other than in defence..................Frei cannot win every game nor can Maicon.......others need to grow bigger balls & play for the club not as individuals...............Teamwork is everything but where is it?

[torontocelt]

Somebody please, give me something to believe in. That is all I ask.

We now have a system!!!

We are still only 3 points off a play off space!!!

We recently drew two away games, that proves our form is on the up and Winter is turning this team around!!!

Winter will sign the perfect DP's in the transfer window, clear the dead wood and have us playing the best football you have seen!!!

[torontocelt]

We now have a system!!!

We are still only 3 points off a play off space!!!

We recently drew two away games, that proves our form is on the up and Winter is turning this team around!!!

Winter will sign the perfect DP's in the transfer window, clear the dead wood and have us playing the best football you have seen!!!

We also managed to get rid of that cancer DeRo and the team is way better since!!!

[ArmenJBX]

not sure if sarcasm.. :P

[DichioTFC]

Wild speculation: JDG is "injured" at the exact same time his brother is in Toronto for vacation.

Just throwin it out there.

[torontocelt]

not sure if sarcasm.. :P

Eh, the good folks at MLSE know the problems and are well on their way to solving them.

[Brooker]

Wild speculation: JDG is "injured" at the exact same time his brother is in Toronto for vacation.

Just throwin it out there.

So you're saying he's pretending to be injured so he can hang out with his brother?

I bet you anything one of our idiot reporters will read this thread and ask JDG why he's doing this....

[volunteer]

Wild speculation: JDG is "injured" at the exact same time his brother is in Toronto for vacation.

Just throwin it out there.


don't u fucking dare besmirch JDG's good name, he's CANADIAN, from scarborough, played in yurop, is a role model and in general beyond reproach. it only -looks- like he sucks/isn't at all near worth what he's being paid because of the poor quality of his teammates. it's not his fault at all.

i think if TFC signs him for another 3 years he will eventually grow into the role, perhaps even be captain. he just needs more time, stop being such a negative nancy.

PS: he's CANADIAN, from scarborough and is a role model

[Soccersteve]

If anyone argues with logic ...I'd say they don't fully understand what has transpired over the last 4 1/2 years.........
The team is dismal. The media are well below par but the fan base is too good to be hanging around for another losing season........will anyone buy a season ticket with such gloom in the past, present & coming future season??? (Why the hell would you).
Toronto fans deserve a better return for their hard earned cash………………..If any Loyal TFC fan worked like these guys, they’d get fired within 3 months.............. Think about it?
I cannot invest my hard earned cash in any product without a return, whether that be eggs & bacon or shampoo………….I need to invest in a product with a return or dare I say it……….some kind of VALUE !
The press, TFC media candy coat this terrible product but enough is really enough…………accountability, responsibility & honesty are required……….call it how it is….enough of the garbage writing……….this club has no return for the fans.

[volunteer]

So you're saying he's pretending to be injured so he can hang out with his brother?

I bet you anything one of our idiot reporters will read this thread and ask JDG why he's doing this....

JDG just doesnt want to play hungover and take up a roster spot otherwise occupied by a fresh player. he is just being responsible, i dont know why people are getting on his case.

[DichioTFC]

So you're saying he's pretending to be injured so he can hang out with his brother?

I bet you anything one of our idiot reporters will read this thread and ask JDG why he's doing this....

More implying it than saying it outright ;)

I know he got hurt during the GC with a calf strain, but that was three weeks ago. There's no news on the website talking about how he's training with the squad and he's improving and whatnot. No mention of JDG at all.


don't u fucking dare besmirch JDG's good name, he's CANADIAN, from scarborough, played in yurop, is a role model and in general beyond reproach. it only -looks- like he sucks/isn't at all near worth what he's being paid because of the poor quality of his teammates. it's not his fault at all.

i think if TFC signs him for another 3 years he will eventually grow into the role, perhaps even be captain. he just needs more time, stop being such a negative nancy.

PS: he's CANADIAN, from scarborough and is a role model

I applaud you, good sir, for showing me the error of my argument. I concede.

[DichioTFC]

JDG just doesnt want to play hungover and take up a roster spot otherwise occupied by a fresh player. he is just being responsible, i dont know why people are getting on his case.

He could be in the middle of a road trip right now. Anyone have an idea how many miles to the gallon a Lamborghini Murcielago gets?

[Auzzy]

Bacon, did somebody say bacon? Mmmm, I love bacon!

[bgnewf]

Don't know what most of you expected. I thought we would lose.

Maicon scored a nice goal. TFC blooded some kids.

Could have been much worse.

[DichioTFC]

Bacon, did somebody say bacon? Mmmm, I love bacon!

7Xc5wIpUenQ

.... And bacon strips..... And bacon strips..... And bacon strips..... And bacon strips..... And bacon strips.

[CSO_BBTB]

...but the fan base is too good to be hanging around for another losing season........will anyone buy a season ticket with such gloom in the past, present & coming future season??? (Why the hell would you).

The true supporters will hang in there and the gloryhunter types will drift away. Success should be seen as something special to savour rather than an entitlement.

[TFCRegina]

Don't know what most of you expected. I thought we would lose.

Maicon scored a nice goal. TFC blooded some kids.

Could have been much worse.

My thoughts exactly. There's nothing to be said about this match other than it's more of the same and the team isn't capable of competing in this league. Changes will be needed.

No need to be upset. This has been known for awhile.

[volunteer]

http://i53.tinypic.com/1572onn.jpg

[TFCRegina]

^ Pretty much.

[2mil4dero+santo]

don't u fucking dare besmirch JDG's good name, he's CANADIAN, from scarborough, played in yurop, is a role model and in general beyond reproach. it only -looks- like he sucks/isn't at all near worth what he's being paid because of the poor quality of his teammates. it's not his fault at all.

i think if TFC signs him for another 3 years he will eventually grow into the role, perhaps even be captain. he just needs more time, stop being such a negative nancy.

PS: he's CANADIAN, from scarborough and is a role model

I think whats frustrating fans about jdg is simply his lack of effort. He had the opportunity to be a local hero and role model and instead decided to treat tfc like a part time hobby that he could cash in on.
Can you honestly say he's taken his time here seriously and left everything on the pitch, has trained at 110% ?

[TFCRegina]

I think whats frustrating fans about jdg is simply his lack of effort. He had the opportunity to be a local hero and role model and instead decided to treat tfc like a part time hobby that he could cash in on.
Can you honestly say he's taken his time here seriously and left everything on the pitch, has trained at 110% ?

I think it was sarcasm.

[2mil4dero+santo]

I think it was sarcasm.

lol thanks, a little slow, just getting up for the graveyard shift...

[DichioTFC]

i read somewhere that Santos' shot was the only one on target for TFC all game?

if this is true, that's utterly pathetic. RSL was struggling going into this match. To hell with Total Football, I want to see a 3-4-3 from now on. Fuck, it's not like we're winning with 4-3-3

[CretanBull]

The true supporters will hang in there and the gloryhunter types will drift away. Success should be seen as something special to savour rather than an entitlement.

Is there such thing as TFC glory hunter?!?

Sorry, but the people who give up on this team are the smarts ones, the rest of us are just gluttons for punishment.

[CSO_BBTB]

if this is true, that's utterly pathetic. RSL was struggling going into this match. To hell with Total Football, I want to see a 3-4-3 from now on. Fuck, it's not like we're winning with 4-3-3

Do you know what is actually meant by "Total Football"? That was MLSE marketing spin and not something Winter has talked about himself. Look at how many players are missing right now. The formation isn't the key problem and a couple of good signings during the transfer window could make a big difference.

[J .]

This team is as bad as I expected and no one can provide any tangible evidence this team is improving.

The Winter made poor additions his first transfer window, we shall see how it works in this transfer window.

[CSO_BBTB]

Is there such thing as TFC glory hunter?!?

No, but there are plenty of people who pre-TFC followed clubs like Man United, Celtic, Barcelona, Ajax, AC Milan, Dinamo Zagreb, Red Star Belgrade, Panathinaikos, Benfica and Bayern Munich on cable or by satellite feeds and have a skewed expectation of what it means to follow a club because they are used to a steady diet of success. Four and a half bad years has been invoved in following the local team they should naturally support. Oh the humanity!

[ensco]

Four and a half bad years has been invoved in following the local team they should naturally support. Oh the humanity!

Wow, gloryhunters. Really?

Four and a half bad years, where the quality of the team, never average, has markedly declined over the last one and a half, is pretty unbelievable in a salary capped league. On top of that, prices are at EPL levels for a League One product, we sit in a meccano set stadium, are forced to purchase games against Edmonton....and exercising the only real power you have to object to all this, walking away, makes you a gloryhunter?

Give people some credit for having half a brain here.

[CSO_BBTB]

I hope MLSE take the long view by accepting that their fan base was initially inflated well beyond the hardcore that would remain through thick and thin and hang in there with the concept of building a coherent style of play from the U14 level through to the first team.

[DichioTFC]

Do you know what is actually meant by "Total Football"? That was MLSE marketing spin and not something Winter has talked about himself. Look at how many players are missing right now. The formation isn't the key problem and a couple of good signings during the transfer window could make a big difference.

I'm familiar with the phrase, hence why I used it. Point of my post was to say that I want to see aggressive football, not just an attacking formation.

Using injuries as an excuse is exactly that - just an excuse. Every team get shit by the injury bug throughout the season, Mariner should've been prepared for it. Besides, we weren't exactly tearing the league apart with everyone healthy earlier in the season.

I bet there are a bunch of people who will argue that the formation is one of the main problems (Winter refuses to abandon it).

And the transfer window itself could serve useless if TFC don't win the NCC.

[CSO_BBTB]

I'm familiar with the phrase, hence why I used it. Point of my post was to say that I want to see aggressive football, not just an attacking formation...

You clearly don't know what "Total Football" means or you wouldn't have used it to complain about someone you perceive to be rigidly sticking to a system.

[West220Side]

don't u fucking dare besmirch JDG's good name, he's CANADIAN, from scarborough, played in yurop, is a role model and in general beyond reproach. it only -looks- like he sucks/isn't at all near worth what he's being paid because of the poor quality of his teammates. it's not his fault at all.

i think if TFC signs him for another 3 years he will eventually grow into the role, perhaps even be captain. he just needs more time, stop being such a negative nancy.

PS: he's CANADIAN, from scarborough and is a role model

dhsfsdhfsdh grammar overload.

http://tbpmw.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/gramma.gif

on topic: if Julian De Guzman is still with us when he's thirty three years old, i'll be royally pissed off.

[kaos197O]

Do you know what is actually meant by "Total Football"? That was MLSE marketing spin and not something Winter has talked about himself. Look at how many players are missing right now. The formation isn't the key problem and a couple of good signings during the transfer window could make a big difference.
Do you?

All total football means is that ANY player-not including the keeper-can take over the role of ANY other player in the team. If a player moves out of position, to join in the attack let's say, another member of the team is supposed to replace him thus keeping the team's formation(in our case a 4-3-3). No player is fixed in a specific role and ANY player can be an attacker/midfielder/defender at any moment.

Success depends on the adaptability of the players on the team. Not only do they need the ability to switch positions on the field depending on the circumstances at that moment, but they need to do so effectively while maintaining form. So to do this the players have to be comfortable in many positions. They need to be educated, skilled and aware of the every aspect of the game from the formation and strategy(when to move in and out of position while the game is happening) to effectively playing any one of many roles that they may find themselves in.

I don't think it's spin. I think that they absolutely want players to be able to do this. The problem is that this requires a great deal of skill and soccer sense, something which most of the players we currently have are lacking at present. Add to it the 4-3-3 system that Winter is implementing and sticking to and it becomes even more difficult. The formation, then, may very well be the problem.

Anyhow.......after watching the game last night I can't imagine that Winter is happy at all. In a 4-3-3 system the forwards have to apply pressure up high and we didn't do that at all. Santos, while he scored a nice goal, was a detriment to the system by being so damned lazy. There's no room for LAZY in this system as defending, or a breakdown thereof, starts in the front. There was more than one incident where Santos was running with his man, while we were on the attack, and the RSL defenders would hold up slightly. Santos did not hold up and put himself offside and/or in an offside position just because he decided NOT to respond to the situation at hand which in turn broke up our attack and started our slide defensively. WHY does he do this when when he clearly sees the play building around him and has the entire defensive line in his sights? Is he that unaware of what's going on? I think not.

The midfield applied little to no pressure as well and because of this collectively poor effort by the team they hung our defensive line and especially Frei out to dry.

I realize we are rebuilding and I'm not going to be negative about that. What I still haven't figured out, based on the current squad, is who is skilled enough to FIT into this rebuild, where TFC will play a 4-3-3 formation and encompass TOTAL FOOTBALL while doing so. Gordon fits the bill. Eckersley fits that a well. Yourassowsky does his part and Borman tries. Soolsma has improved of late. That's 5 out of 30 that have some semblance of what is going on.

Am I missing anyone?

I understand why people are pissed, especially if they are season seat holders and understand the game and what FO has tried to sell us with regards to the clubs future. It's not translating. If people leave, no one here should have a damn thing to say about it. Your comments regarding Glory Hunter types are unwarranted, unwelcome and unfair. In today's economy we all have to justify how we spend our Entertainment $$$'s. When you continually overpay for the product being provided, feel undervalued by the seller and don't see the promises being made translating into tangibles, people will pack it in. It doesn't mean they'll stop supporting. It just means they can no longer justify supporting in this manner.

[Pookie]

Fun to watch the comments roll in. I'll offer mine.

On the game itself: league's best playing a home game against one of the league's worst. The result, unfortunately was expected.

On the line up for the game: I'm with prizby on the fact that our inexperienced starting 11 made it difficult.

On Winter: First a fact. Of the starting 11, 7 are players that were brought in before he arrived.

With that out of the way, he is being criticized as a shit coach. Which means that he is getting less out of the roster than could be expected. If you fall into the "shit coach" category, I'm presuming you think that a new coach could get more out of this current roster with no changes?

He is being criticized as a shit Manager for bringing in the players that are performing to this level. He has had some impact on the roster, no doubt. Until he passes through a transfer window or two though, the question is still up in the air. This team does not yet have his stamp on it.


I know folks like to finger point and place the blame on one person or issue. It makes thinking that a solution is as easy as a new coach or one new player. Be realistic. No one is happy with the results. The solution though isn't found in just one thing.

[CSO_BBTB]

Do you?

Yes and I am old enough to vividly remember watching the Dutch NT actually playing that way during the 1974 World Cup. The references to "total football" came from Gol TV and the rest of the MLSE spin machine rather than from Winter and De Klerk. Anyone who seriously thinks that Winter is trying to get players like Soolsma, Gordon and Sturgis to play like Cruyff, Neeskens and Rep did back then is in cloud cuckoo land. The tactics of the game have moved on from the days when catenaccio tactics were at their peak and you could mess about with another team's man marking by having the players swap roles. It's ludicrous to talk about total football in the context of 2011.

A lot of the time TFC are playing more of a 4-2-3-1 that is really not that different to how many/most teams would play a 4-5-1. The problem is the quality simply isn't there in the spine of the team to play any system well in an MLS context. Once De Rosario, Barrett, JDG and Cann are all off the payroll completely in cap terms and have been effectively replaced by players Winter wants the team will no longer be in "rebuilding" mode and it will be time to judge whether Winter's approach is working.

[Mikey]

Highlight of the game for me...was not watching it, and going out instead. 5 dollar drinks and scored two free tickets to Bad Teacher.

EDIT*

The true supporters will hang in there and the gloryhunter types will drift away. Success should be seen as something special to savour rather than an entitlement.

Is that you Asif....? LMAO

[PopePouri]

Got to feel for Doneil. Looked decent in the last couple of games but completely outclassed by a better player. Hopefully he watches the tapes, learns from his mistakes and moves forward.

[kaos197O]

Yes and I am old enough to vividly remember watching the Dutch NT actually playing that way during the 1974 World Cup. The references to "total football" came from Gol TV and the rest of the MLSE spin machine rather than from Winter and De Klerk. Anyone who seriously thinks that Winter is trying to get players like Soolsma, Gordon and Sturgis to play like Cruyff, Neeskens and Rep did back then is in cloud cuckoo land. The tactics of the game have moved on from the days when catenaccio tactics were at their peak and you could mess about with another team's man marking by having the players swap roles. It's ludicrous to talk about total football in the context of 2011.

A lot of the time TFC are playing more of a 4-2-3-1 that is really not that different to how many/most teams would play a 4-5-1. The problem is the quality simply isn't there in the spine of the team to play any system well in an MLS context. Once De Rosario, Barrett, JDG and Cann are all off the payroll completely in cap terms and have been effectively replaced by players Winter wants the team will no longer be in "rebuilding" mode and it will be time to judge whether Winter's approach is working.
You are right to an extent. We will never get players like the ones we have to ever perform like Cruyff, Neeskens.......If they could, they would be playing at a higher level.

You mentioned that we have not heard Winter or DK use the term "Total Football" and that is true. However, in the 5 part series in which DK explains what he wants to see from his 4-3-3 system, and the players playing within it, regardless of which variation is being used, is that the players are able to adapt to different positions. To slide in and out of positions as other players move forward in attack. To read the play and be able to see things happen in real time so that they can get into their new position. To be able to play this new position effectively. While TOTAL FOOTBALL as it was once known may not be happening as it did back then, DK's and Winter's hope is to have a team that plays a newer style of that OLD system. An amended version of it. One that could indeed work in 2011.

You are right about the CAP room though. Unfortunately, we will likely have to wait until all the $$$$ are freed up and we can actually use the money for players that can fit the system, style and have the skills they seek.

I still maintain that we will be better and perhaps a force to be reckoned with if we stick to the course, but I do maintain that if people choose to support in another manner until this occurs I don't think any one of us can blame them.

[Shakes McQueen]

dhsfsdhfsdh grammar overload.

http://tbpmw.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/gramma.gif

on topic: if Julian De Guzman is still with us when he's thirty three years old, i'll be royally pissed off.

I'm a representative with Sarcasm Sailing, and I can report that you've missed the boat.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Also: We lost! Woo!

- Scott

[torontocelt]

Don't know what most of you expected. I thought we would lose.

Maicon scored a nice goal. TFC blooded some kids.

Could have been much worse.

This is Toronto FC, I think most of us expect to lose almost every game nowadays.

[Alixir]

sometimes I feel like we will never win a game again.

[maninb]

Henry nightmare.....and is anybody surprised RSL attacked the side with Gargan on it? LOL!

[CSO_BBTB]

...While TOTAL FOOTBALL as it was once known may not be happening as it did back then, DK's and Winter's hope is to have a team that plays a newer style of that OLD system. An amended version of it. One that could indeed work in 2011...

Total football was meaningful as a term when something was happening that contrasted sharply with a prevailing culture in which each player played a specific role within a rigid system (often with a limited skills set suited to playing that one role) and the other team could safely assign specific man marking roles. Personally think all you are really describing is the reality that in the modern game at the top level players are expected to be a lot more rounded and flexible in skills and tactical roles than used to be the case. In the absence of the obvious contrast that existed circa 1974 the terminology quickly became redundant and the ability to mess teams up by swapping roles receded. There is nothing hugely radical about the various permutations of 4-3-3/4-5-1 nowadays because after a long spell of being used primarily as the response to a 80s Denmark style 3-5-2, in recent years they have begun to supercede the various permutations of 4-4-2 that once ruled the roost in many/most top leagues and are now arguably the dominant tactical approach. Everything no longer revolves around a diamond style 4-4-2 even if it's what many/most of us were most likely to be introduced to as kids.

[Beach_Red]

He is being criticized as a shit Manager for bringing in the players that are performing to this level. He has had some impact on the roster, no doubt. Until he passes through a transfer window or two though, the question is still up in the air. This team does not yet have his stamp on it.


I know folks like to finger point and place the blame on one person or issue. It makes thinking that a solution is as easy as a new coach or one new player. Be realistic. No one is happy with the results. The solution though isn't found in just one thing.


It may be one thing, it may be that this "system" yhis culture "culture" won't work in MLS kn 2011 or 2012 or anytime in the near future.

Is there really any reason to believe that with another two transfer windows the roster will be complete with enough "quality" players to win against the best MLS teams?

There will always be a thin roster with injured veterans and NCAA-trained players making up the low end of the pay scale. Every other team realizes this and some of them do quite well. They adapt.

This "plan" TFC have is like some ECHL hockey team telling their fans they're going to start playing like the mid-80s Edmonton Oilers, don't worry, they'll just get a Gretzky, a Messier, Paul Coffey, Grant Furh, Glenn Anderson, have patience, all it will take is one or two transfer windows and they'll sign them all to long-term contract and give the team real consistency.

Hockey fans in rural Kentucky wouldn't buy it, why should soccer fans in Toronto?

[v00d00daddy]

Look. If people don't want to see TFC try and develop a philosophy at the club that will foster a style of play that we've never had before in Canada then I don't know why you'd c

[CSO_BBTB]

It may be one thing, it may be that this "system" yhis culture "culture" won't work in MLS kn 2011 or 2012 or anytime in the near future.

Is there really any reason to believe that with another two transfer windows the roster will be complete with enough "quality" players to win against the best MLS teams?...

This Guardian (UK newspaper) blog entry provides some of the background to the move away from 4-4-2 in recent years for those used to the typical English football way of doing things:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2008/dec/18/4231-442-tactics-jonathan-wilson

I need to sit down and watch all the old Toronto FC TV clips carefully and make sure I have grasped the Dutch terminology I am not used to correctly. At the risk of really embarrassing myself 4-2-3-1 is basically De Klerk's "point forward", while what he describes as a "point back" is 4-1-4-1 in the Guardian blog entry.

[ManUtd4ever]

It may be one thing, it may be that this "system" yhis culture "culture" won't work in MLS kn 2011 or 2012 or anytime in the near future.

Is there really any reason to believe that with another two transfer windows the roster will be complete with enough "quality" players to win against the best MLS teams?

There will always be a thin roster with injured veterans and NCAA-trained players making up the low end of the pay scale. Every other team realizes this and some of them do quite well. They adapt.

This "plan" TFC have is like some ECHL hockey team telling their fans they're going to start playing like the mid-80s Edmonton Oilers, don't worry, they'll just get a Gretzky, a Messier, Paul Coffey, Grant Furh, Glenn Anderson, have patience, all it will take is one or two transfer windows and they'll sign them all to long-term contract and give the team real consistency.

Hockey fans in rural Kentucky wouldn't buy it, why should soccer fans in Toronto?

I agree with your sentiments, but it was the media that fabricated the notion of "Total Football" in Toronto when Winter and DeClerk were hired because of their professional background.

In fairness to the new management regime, no promises were made to suggest that TFC was going to be the MLS incarnation of Ajax or Barcelona. Winter and Mariner have preached that they were going to try and implement an attractive, attacking, posession based playing style within variations of the 4-3-3 throughout every level of the organization, nothing more. The new management regime has also acknowledged on several occasions that patience will be required in order to teach the fundamentals required and acquire players for the first team that are capable of performing within the perameters of the system.

I don't think we're being asked to "buy" any type of line from management or have been intentionally mislead. In a rebuilding year, the current situation is what it is, and it's up to indivual supporters to determine whether or not they are willing to continue to support the club, plain and simple. I had higher expecations for the club this season, but I certainly don't feel like management made any false promises.

As for last night's match, the result was predictable considering that TFC fielded an injury depleted lineup against one of the best clubs in MLS with an impeccable record at Rio Tinto Stadium.

[v00d00daddy]

If people aren't willing to wait for TFC to implement a philosophy at the club that's never been done in Canada before than I'd suggest doing something to oust the new regime or enjoy the ride.

What TFC is doing will, in the long run and if given the opportunity, help Canadian soccer as a whole. Their academy will be producing players who will have learned the game that the rest of the succesful football nations in the world play.

Is the style working for TFC right now? No. But a complete overhaul is going to take time.

Supporters may not wait that long but so be it. I understand if people are done with this team. Everyone has their own breaking point.

I want this team to stay the course and try to accomplish their goals and implement their vision.

If they capitulate to the "results at all costs" philosophy and go back to playing the style they played for the first four seasons I will be gone.

I'll happily never watch them again if it means I have to watch them play like a high school team from the 80's. If that happens they MAY find some success (I doubt it because that garbage ball is so predictable and so easy to defend) but they'll never grow.

The academy will never produce real quality players and TFC, and all the mens and boys national teams will continue to suck.

The football revolution in Canada is long overdue and I hope TFC is the catalyst for it's start.

[Beach_Red]

Look. If people don't want to see TFC try and develop a philosophy at the club that will foster a style of play that we've never had before in Canada then I don't know why you'd c

If it was an organic philosophy that grew from the community, sure. This is something helicoptered in by a consultant and a marketing department.

It's not the specific style of play that's the issue, it's the arrogance that these guys think they can be successful with it - and that means beating the other teams in this league - and that the fan base will keep financing it.

[ManUtd4ever]

If it was an organic philosophy that grew from the community, sure. This is something helicoptered in by a consultant and a marketing department.

It's not the specific style of play that's the issue, it's the arrogance that these guys think they can be successful with it - and that means beating the other teams in this league - and that the fan base will keep financing it.

It would only be arrogant if results were guaranteed in the short term by management, but that was not the case.

Other MLS clubs have been successful playing an attractive, attacking, oriented system based on the 4-3-3 formation, so it is certainly feasible over time, just not with TFC's current roster.

Again, supporters have the right to demand results based on their own level of expectations, but it is inaccurate to suggest that management has made any sort of promises to the fan base under false pretenses.

[v00d00daddy]

If it was an organic philosophy that grew from the community, sure. This is something helicoptered in by a consultant and a marketing department.

It's not the specific style of play that's the issue, it's the arrogance that these guys think they can be successful with it - and that means beating the other teams in this league - and that the fan base will keep financing it.

There's nothing arrogant about believing that they can be succesful here.

1. This style is the absolute top of the pecking order when it comes to football right now. Every team and league will vary in the way it looks but it can and has been succesful at every level.

2. It has to be done for football in this country to catch up to the rest of the region and the rest of the world.

3. RSL plays a possession game focused on cerebral football over physical dominance and they're one of, if not the best team in the league.

4. There's nothing arrogant about the new regime believing they can produce professional players from a young age with the goal of contributing at a senior level. It's what they do. It's what they're good at.

[v00d00daddy]

If it was an organic philosophy that grew from the community, sure. This is something helicoptered in by a consultant and a marketing department.


Also, it has to be done this way.

It's not possible to implement a forward thinking philosophy out of Canada's current football community. We just don't have the people capable or willing to do it.

Look at the CWNT. They brought in Morace who said fuck this...what you guys are doing is garbage and it needs to change. That change began in 2009 and the fruits of their labours are starting to show.

It makes no sense to expect people trained in the traditional Canadian way of football to fix a completely dysfunctional system and ideology. You have to look elsewhere to bring people in to start the teams down the right path and foster the education of proper football for following generations.

[Beach_Red]

Yeah, it's arrogamt because it's a couple of guys on short-term contracts, not a national plan with any depth. Sure, the country may need what you say it needs but that's not why I buy tickets to TFC and it's not what MLSE should be doing.

And yes, we were sold this "vision" by a consultant so let's not let the guys hired to implement it off the hook so easily. Sure, no one said Ajax, but also no one said MLS, either, and that's the problem. All we want to do is win some games in this league. Last night's loss wasn't unexpected. Next week's loss won't be unexpected. Hell, we've already accepted losing the NCC to Vancouver because we're "rebuilding" and it takes time.

But is this system really the best one for a salary-capped, roster restricted development league?

[brad]

Henry nightmare.....and is anybody surprised RSL attacked the side with Gargan on it? LOL!

They attacked that side because it made Frei look directly into the sun. Smart team exploited an advantage.

[brad]

A big week coming up with two games against Vancouver. We could conceivably get knocked to the bottom of the table by them and lose the cup to them.

[Batman]

I think it's pretty telling how the interest in this team is waning..and rightly so.

3 pages of post game comments... it used to be 30..win or lose..(especially when we lost) and we're the AVID supporters!

5 years of garbage soccer is getting many of us to the point of just being disinterested.

I hope the hell MLSE and TFC understand this..

[Nuvinho]

on our matchday email from TFC for Wednesday's game, here is the headline - "Battle for the Bottom"

[Shakes McQueen]

I think it's pretty telling how the interest in this team is waning..and rightly so.

3 pages of post game comments... it used to be 30..win or lose..(especially when we lost) and we're the AVID supporters!

5 years of garbage soccer is getting many of us to the point of just being disinterested.

I hope the hell MLSE and TFC understand this..

Yep. Whatever I think of the plan Winter and Mariner have for this team, there's no denying that my interest in TFC is at an all-time low right now.

- Scott

[Fort York Redcoat]

Henry. So young. As said above Gargan doesn't help but anybody think it strange that we get the guy on loan to do interviews after? Great game for Eckersly again but there's not 3 more of him at the back.

One more thing: I remember Johnson going off in the Gold Cup but he seems to have been back for his first available club match. Are you watching JDG?

[Yohan]

A big week coming up with two games against Vancouver. We could conceivably get knocked to the bottom of the table by them and lose the cup to them.
It's a statement game. We'll see whether Winter and Santos can motivate TFC to win, esp the Voy cup game on sat

[Jenkins12]

Okay, so maybe there is a bright side to this awful half of the season, now it's obvious the team is complete shit and TFC fans are pissed (rightly so).

So FO, Winter and the rest of the staff MUST be looking at making changes and making a few signing early in the window.

A good start would be Danny Koevermans.

Plus alot of our injured players must be close to coming back!

[denime]

This Guardian (UK newspaper) blog entry provides some of the background to the move away from 4-4-2 in recent years for those used to the typical English football way of doing things:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2008/dec/18/4231-442-tactics-jonathan-wilson

I need to sit down and watch all the old Toronto FC TV clips carefully and make sure I have grasped the Dutch terminology I am not used to correctly. At the risk of really embarrassing myself 4-2-3-1 is basically De Klerk's "point forward", while what he describes as a "point back" is 4-1-4-1 in the Guardian blog entry.

point back is 4-1-2-3 or 4-1-2-2-1(2-2 are not in the same lien and that's why it can't be called 4,point forward is 4-2-1-3 or 4-2-1-2-1.For the last 2-3 years I'm watching 3 times per week this system being practiced and played from the age of 9-19 and it is very flexible system were the players have to put the egos behind the team and that is much easier with younger kids then adult professional players.

You can check it here,mid of the page you will find the exact copy of "Ajax 4-3-3 system",same is being implemented at TFCA right now.


http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=27099&page=2

[DangerRed]

Yep. Whatever I think of the plan Winter and Mariner have for this team, there's no denying that my interest in TFC is at an all-time low right now.

- Scott

Yep, absolutely correct, and same with me. As for those who say the overhaul will take time, I'd again point to the fact that NYRB and RSL and others overhauled everything in under a year and NYRB when from shit to top of the league in that time.

In positive news, I predicted 3-0 or 3-1 RSL in the pregame thread. So...

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01926/lulzsec_1926506c.jpg

[torontocelt]

Rebuilding or not rebuilding there is no excuse for 2 wins in 18 matches.

[prizby]

Don't know what most of you expected. I thought we would lose.

Maicon scored a nice goal. TFC blooded some kids.

Could have been much worse.

exactly this


Henry nightmare.....and is anybody surprised RSL attacked the side with Gargan on it? LOL!

Gargan was in the middle...that would be the side Eckersley was on...or where the sun was...Stefan should have been wearing a hat

[Yohan]

Yep, absolutely correct, and same with me. As for those who say the overhaul will take time, I'd again point to the fact that NYRB and RSL and others overhauled everything in under a year and NYRB when from shit to top of the league in that time.

actually, RSL did not build their team in a year

[Strans]

Missed the game, but the game in 6 seemed to have Henry getting dominated in just about every clip they showed.

Was it a case all game of Henry being outclassed badly / not getting the help he needed / the sun (1st half anyway) or did it just seem that way?

Quick aside: I'm as frustrated as anyone, but I really think that it's unfair to shit on winter/mariner when they haven't had a chance to build their team. If you consider this season to-date as an evaluation period, one where the management looks at the assets they currently have on the pitch and see which (if any) of the current roster can fit in the system they want to play, then you start to consider this transfer window as the first real opportunity for M&W et al. have to shape the team addressing needs based on the players that they have and the players that are available.

[spark]

actually, RSL did not build their team in a year

Hmmm well Kreis was appointed in May of 07 and traded for Beckerman within 2 months. He traded for Yura Movsisyan in July and Javier Morales came a month later. Jameson Olave came January 2008.

You could probably argue they 'built' key components in three months but had their spine sorted out well under a year.

[Yohan]

Hmmm well Kreis was appointed in May of 07 and traded for Beckerman within 2 months. He traded for Yura Movsisyan in July and Javier Morales came a month later. Jameson Olave came January 2008.

You could probably argue they 'built' key components in three months but had their spine sorted out well under a year.
and those 'key' components didn't bring a winning team till 09. just saying.

we really can't tell which of TFC players will end up being key or what not. hindsight is always 20/20. Kreis also brought in a lot of players that didn't end up working out too

[swan]

well didn't expect any better then this for this game so i guess i can't be to bitter..

[spark]

and those 'key' components didn't bring a winning team till 09. just saying.

we really can't tell which of TFC players will end up being key or what not. hindsight is always 20/20. Kreis also brought in a lot of players that didn't end up working out too

Well they made the playoffs in 08 and had a better record that season than in 09 - also they had almost identical home records (only one home loss both years). The team that is strong now was built in the summer 2007 and at the end of the season and began producing (winning) in 2008. Their ascent was there for all to see that year and if you don't think a thirteen point turnaround and last to third in their division with a playoff appearance is not winning that is cool.

What players didn't work out for Kreis? A Keeper? CB? Midfield? Striker? Since he's been on board he's had one solid player holding down all those positions. If anyone didn't work out it was inconsequential because he made the right moves in essential areas.

[DangerRed]

actually, RSL did not build their team in a year

RSL's rebuild started in 2007 and they made the playoffs -- which require a winning team -- the following year. Yes, they didn't win the cup, but I'd say you've pretty much finished rebuilding when you hit the playoffs, no?

[Oldtimer]

RSL's rebuild started in 2007 and they made the playoffs -- which require a winning team -- the following year. Yes, they didn't win the cup, but I'd say you've pretty much finished rebuilding when you hit the playoffs, no?

So that's two years... and they were actually below .500 in 2008.... so as far as league play the rebuild wasn't yet complete in 2 years. The three year figure would be what most analysts/media types would say.

[menefreghista]

I think it's pretty telling how the interest in this team is waning..and rightly so.

3 pages of post game comments... it used to be 30..win or lose..(especially when we lost) and we're the AVID supporters!

5 years of garbage soccer is getting many of us to the point of just being disinterested.

I hope the hell MLSE and TFC understand this..

The apathy has set in for sure among the fanbase. Its pretty sad when you think about it.

[123 elite]

If people aren't willing to wait for TFC to implement a philosophy at the club that's never been done in Canada before than I'd suggest doing something to oust the new regime or enjoy the ride.

What TFC is doing will, in the long run and if given the opportunity, help Canadian soccer as a whole. Their academy will be producing players who will have learned the game that the rest of the succesful football nations in the world play.

Is the style working for TFC right now? No. But a complete overhaul is going to take time.

Supporters may not wait that long but so be it. I understand if people are done with this team. Everyone has their own breaking point.

I want this team to stay the course and try to accomplish their goals and implement their vision.

If they capitulate to the "results at all costs" philosophy and go back to playing the style they played for the first four seasons I will be gone.

I'll happily never watch them again if it means I have to watch them play like a high school team from the 80's. If that happens they MAY find some success (I doubt it because that garbage ball is so predictable and so easy to defend) but they'll never grow.

The academy will never produce real quality players and TFC, and all the mens and boys national teams will continue to suck.

The football revolution in Canada is long overdue and I hope TFC is the catalyst for it's start.

I just dont get this. I read stuff like this here a lot and i just wonder if i am watching the same game as you. I know i have got really negative about this season but what is the style and philosophy? I mean what is it ? The last game i saw consisted of Frei booting the ball up the park against the Sounders and everybody running for it. If you say style and phylosophy then back it up. You cant just say total football, 4-3-3, academy or whatever bollocks. It isn't there. This is so far from total football that its more like baseball. I watched the dutch team in the 70s. This is not that. Its failure on every level. I mean almost everyone on here last year said that there were about 4-5 players that were indispensible ... Attakora, Cann, dero, Frei and maybe one or 2 others depending on people's borderline opinions. We have essentially lost all of them... whether it actually losing them or in a very short space of time rendering them bloody useless. How is this a style and philosophy ?We replaced them with what ? We have barely scored a well constructed goal this season. We have a negative goal difference in double figures. We have DP that i could play better than, Most goals have been as a result of individual talent (eg Plata v Houston), sheer luck (Martina v portland) or toe pokes from Santos. set pieces are terrible. (2 freekicks at the edge of the box v sounders????). I am tired of watching them. I am tired of people acting like this is part of a masterplan. FFS the union are top of our league. How can that happen after about 18 months ? The really sad thing is that picture when you log in here of fans at the academy game is what BMO is going to look like in the near future. TFC is a disaster.

[123 elite]

oops Plata (v chicago)

[69Chevy396]

Actually, I understand why the thread was shut down, and am not upset by it. After following this club for 5 years I am on the verge of giving my tickets away and not renewing, just so bored. One thing to lose occasionally, but to do so predictably week after week, and all the while watching rather mediocre soccer (mls is simply not very good), leads me to wonder why mlse cannot emulate philly...The question about firing the manager irks people but a last place club in a third tier soccer league, that has not won a game in months, plays poorly all the time, cannot be such a shocking suggestion. But I realize the RPB are strong supporters of this team and should try to focus on positive elements of the season, when they can. But don't you feel a little bit betrayed by this team? Can everything they do wrong be excused, or blamed on fate and injuries etc.? For example, if Attakora was given adequate training in this new system, would'nt this be better then using academy defenders who are not nearly as good as he is? That is a managers decision. And, why bother signing stevanovic and Eckersley when one will likely follow the other out of here before the season is over...what is the point of this, particularly in a season where Dero is traded away at a time when the team couldn't score....couldn't Winter wait until the season was over before moving him, or at least wait until the playoffs approached, he would get more for him at that time than a slighly better than average tchani? These are the decisions I question about Winter, and they are rarely explained...when Dero was traded most people around me at the stadium were shocked, yet in RPB it seemed to be accepted as a positive decision just because it was made by the new guy.

[ilikemusic]

I just dont get this. I read stuff like this here a lot and i just wonder if i am watching the same game as you. I know i have got really negative about this season but what is the style and philosophy? I mean what is it ? The last game i saw consisted of Frei booting the ball up the park against the Sounders and everybody running for it. If you say style and phylosophy then back it up. You cant just say total football, 4-3-3, academy or whatever bollocks. It isn't there. This is so far from total football that its more like baseball. I watched the dutch team in the 70s. This is not that. Its failure on every level. I mean almost everyone on here last year said that there were about 4-5 players that were indispensible ... Attakora, Cann, dero, Frei and maybe one or 2 others depending on people's borderline opinions. We have essentially lost all of them... whether it actually losing them or in a very short space of time rendering them bloody useless. How is this a style and philosophy ?We replaced them with what ? We have barely scored a well constructed goal this season. We have a negative goal difference in double figures. We have DP that i could play better than, Most goals have been as a result of individual talent (eg Plata v Houston), sheer luck (Martina v portland) or toe pokes from Santos. set pieces are terrible. (2 freekicks at the edge of the box v sounders????). I am tired of watching them. I am tired of people acting like this is part of a masterplan. FFS the union are top of our league. How can that happen after about 18 months ? The really sad thing is that picture when you log in here of fans at the academy game is what BMO is going to look like in the near future. TFC is a disaster.

People say that crap because they want to feel like they are "in" on something that other people just aren't getting; people like to feel like they can see what others don't. It makes them feel smart to say "you just dont understand what is happening" so they throw out the same inane bullshit that the suits (who have an actual vested personal and financial stake beyond money spent on tickets) who have their jobs on the line spew out.

edit:

lol, I got an infraction for 'attacking the group', and my post was removed by oldtimer. :lol:

[CSO_BBTB]

point back is 4-1-2-3 or 4-1-2-2-1(2-2 are not in the same lien and that's why it can't be called 4,point forward is 4-2-1-3 or 4-2-1-2-1.For the last 2-3 years I'm watching 3 times per week this system being practiced and played from the age of 9-19 and it is very flexible system were the players have to put the egos behind the team and that is much easier with younger kids then adult professional players.

Thanks, some people might not get the use of up to 5 numbers rather than 3 for the formation. The aim in modern 4-3-3/4-5-1 systems is to create triangles all over the field exploiting the spaces left between the lines by teams that play a more traditional 4-4-2. If Winter were dogmatically sticking to "point back" I could understand the angst from some but "point forward" is nothing hugely out of the ordinary and is something competitive teams at all levels can reasonably be expected to use successfully.

[Kaz]

Ok a few things.

First RSL is a good team playing at home, I didn't expect a win I would hope no one else did either.

Second as mentioned there is a fair number of injuries, which only makes it more difficult in this particular game.

As for the team, Winter had 6 weeks to bring about change, had a lot of issues with multiple things when he came, DeRo, Cann, and several odd trades that Winter had no part in. He then drafted players and signed a young team to build on. It was never expected for him to have a winning team from the beginning.

Then things didn't go well with DeRo who he really was building the squad around. I think if DeRo had left before the Barrett trade you would have seen Barrett in the AM role and Santos traded. Barrett would have fit there better and worked much harder. But the reality is, that left us without the major attacking threat that was expected. And Gordon who has been chronically injured for a while shouldn't have been expected to do much more then be a shot in the arm when he was healthy.

Several players were brought in that didn't really have the knowledge and haven't fully adapted to MLS yet.

All in all the fact that we have only won one MLS game since DeRo left says a lot..

What all this means is, that if a skilled AM comes in during the transfer window, as well as JDG departure and is replaced by a decent DM to do the same thing for less, with a DP Striker or the AM as DP who is worth the price... then we have potential. If Winter doesn't take advantage of the off season, isn't learning from his mistakes in the league, and we still preform like shit next year.. then I think that is all there is for Winter and the overall employment of Dutch coaches in MLS.

Basically I think that Winter was going to count on DeRo to win games, he shipped him off reluctantly, and his other signings just aren't preforming as he had hoped in this league. It is his fault he knows it, but he also deserves the chance to fix it.

Unlike Preki who knew the league, had a decent squad to work with, and gutted it, and had personality issues himself, and a view of MLS that was 5 years old and not totally valid anymore. Winter is learning... he should get the chance to show what he can do.

[123 elite]

Ok a few things.

First RSL is a good team playing at home, I didn't expect a win I would hope no one else did either.

Second as mention there is a fair number of injuries, which only makes it more difficult in this particular game.

As for the team, Winter had 6 weeks to bring about change, had a lot of issues with multiple things when he came, DeRo, Cann, and several odd trades that Winter had no part in. He then drafted players and signed a young team to build on. It was never expected for him to have a winning team from the beginning.

Then things didn't go well with DeRo who he really was building the squad around, I think if DeRo had before the Barrett trade you would have seen Barrett but in the AM role and Santos traded. Barrett would have fit there better and worked much harder. But the reality is that left us without the major attacking threat that was expected. And Gordon who has been chronically injured for a while shouldn't have been expected to do much more then be a shot in the arm when he was healthy.

Several players were brought in that didn't really have the knowledge and haven't fully adapted to MLS yet.

All in all the fact that we have only won one MLS game since DeRo left says a lot..

What all this means that if a skilled AM comes in during the transfer window, as well as JDG departure replaces by a decent DM to do the same thing for less, with a DP Striker or the AM as DP who is worth the price... then we have potential. If Winter doesn't take advantage of the off season, isn't learning from his mistakes in the league, and we still preform like shit next year.. then I think that is all there is for Winter and the overall employment of Dutch coach in MLS.

Basically I think that Winter was going to count on DeRo to win games he shipped him off reluctantly, and his other signings just aren't preforming as he had hoped in this league. It's his fault he knows it, but he also deserves the chance to fix it.

Unlike Preki who new the league, had a decent squad to work with, and gutted it, and had personality issues himself, and a view of MLS that was 5 years old and not totally valid anymore. Winter is learning... he should get the chance to show what he can do.

Thats actually a fair point and well reasoned out. You didn't dress it up in words like system, style and philosophy. I can accept that as a reasoned opinion

[123 elite]

I noticed that. Must have hit a nerve

[billyfly]

Ugh. TFC.

[menefreghista]

The question about firing the manager irks people but a last place club in a third tier soccer league, that has not won a game in months, plays poorly all the time, cannot be such a shocking suggestion.

I thought it was a perfectly valid question to ask.

I think we are stuck with Winter regardless until at least the end of the season.

Of course there is always the chance that Winter bolts on his own. With the team doing this badly that is entirely possible. He may quit out of embarrassment or to save face. Under the guise of a 'mutual' separation.

[CSO_BBTB]

Thing to watch is the transfer window. If a player like Danny Koevermans is signed to a multiyear deal they are basically committing to Winter for the medium term timescale. If like last year nothing much happens beyond a short term deal for one European hasbeen until the end of the season we could be seeing another change around about season ticket renewal time. They've stumbled onto what is probably the right approach long term but I have zero faith that they will hang in there with it if it gets in the way of their short term marketing targets given promotion prospects post-Peddie are on the line for people like Paul Beirne and Tom Anselmi.

[Roogsy]

Thing to watch is the transfer window. If a player like Danny Koevermans is signed to a multiyear deal they are basically committing to Winter for the medium term timescale. If like last year nothing much happens beyond a short term deal for one European hasbeen until the end of the season we could be seeing another change around about season ticket renewal time. They've stumbled onto what is probably the right approach long term but I have zero faith that they will hang in there with it if it gets in the way of their short term marketing targets given promotion prospects post-Peddie are on the line for people like Paul Beirne and Tom Anselmi.

The part in quotes...this is the part I am most interested in. What exactly points to this being the "right approach"?

[CSO_BBTB]

Having a preferred style of play through from U14 to the first team based on what is the prevailing trend in the modern game so there can be more continuity in playing personnel from coach to coach.

[Roogsy]

But that is far too basic to be considered the "right approach". That's like saying that in order for a company to be successful it has to have the "right people". Well, that much is obvious. But what does it mean to have the "right people"? Is it experience? Is it ambition? Is it a mix of youth and veteran? Is it leadership? Is it teamwork? The elements that make up the solution need to be evaluated. Have they been with TFC?

For a solution to be considered appropriate, the devil is in the details. Platitiudes about having a "vision" and "style" are insufficient to generate sufficient hope in a fanbase that has seen a team actually get worse instead of better.

[CSO_BBTB]

If people are going to fall by the wayside because the team is losing in the short term I think they are no great loss personally. Better to slowly build the fanbase based on the people who will hang in there through thick and thin. If most knowledgeable soccer community people in the GTA can see what they are trying to achieve based on development of players from U14 to the MLS senior roster then that's progress over what was happening under Mo and Carver when the tactics being used were seen by some as being prehistoric.

[Roogsy]

When it comes to a team's fanbase, there is no credible argument of "quality instead of quantity". In the world of sports, quantity IS the only valid argument and anyone espousing this "I'd rather have 5,000 hardcore supporters in the stands vs 20,000 fairweather fans" doesn't know the business of sports or what it takes to build a successful franchise.

When a fanbase declines, revenues decline. When revenues decline, the quality of the product declines. When the quality of product declines, it becomes all that much more difficult to return to previous, higher levels. It's an uphill battle that was never necessary to be fought. It's tying a millstone around your neck unecessarily.

[CSO_BBTB]

Don't think it would drop as far as 5k (there were already 7k sold pre-Beckham) and they have scope for group sales that they aren't really pushing right now. Anyhoo, we disagree. Maybe best to quit for now having stated our positions before it gets repetitive.

[ExiledRed]

I dont think anybody is suggesting that having a team that is capable of playing formations other than 4-4-2 is a bad thing. Maybe too, getting rid of this philosophical approach to the style of play along with Winter would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The real question is what type of coach is winter?

Is he the right person to coach this team? Is he able to communicate this philosphy of play to north american players? does he understand the MLS talent pool enough to get the right people ahead of the other coaches? does he have the charisma to convince them to come here? Are his connections going to pay off?

Im sorry, but if you remove all the rhetoric about the global standard of play, and the culture of posession based football, winter looks a bit hapless.

His selections are awful. His substitutions are baffling and he uses them so quickly he leaves injured players limping on the pitch. He fucks with players heads, visibly punishes them over non game related shit. He changes the plan when were pulling it back together and fails to change the plan when were falling apart. He hasnt produced any real talent yet, and he's already losing people he's bought in, which doesnt bode well for 'building the spine'

On top of that, the other coaches have his number and are making him look like an idiot week in and week out. You get the impression that he doesnt 'know his enemy' he rarely adapts his tactics to the team hes facing, even though the other teams seem to know exactly what were going to do, and how to stomp it out.

The system might be the holy grail afterall for all i know, but is winter really the man to hold it?

[CSO_BBTB]

On the last bit I think best policy is two more transfer windows to get the spine sorted out then we better see a lot more points on the board or it will be time to find somebody else to carry the 4-3-3/4-5-1 approach forward. I'd keep an eye on the FC Edmonton coach Harry Sinkgraven. Getting results at D2 level with a squad of players drawn to a significant extent from the local provincial amateur league is quite impressive. Over and out for at least 24 hours.

[werewolf]

When it comes to a team's fanbase, there is no credible argument of "quality instead of quantity". In the world of sports, quantity IS the only valid argument and anyone espousing this "I'd rather have 5,000 hardcore supporters in the stands vs 20,000 fairweather fans" doesn't know the business of sports or what it takes to build a successful franchise.

When a fanbase declines, revenues decline. When revenues decline, the quality of the product declines. When the quality of product declines, it becomes all that much more difficult to return to previous, higher levels. It's an uphill battle that was never necessary to be fought. It's tying a millstone around your neck unecessarily.

There is most certainly a difference between people in the stadium. Well 5000 vs. 20 000 is a large discrepancy, if its 14 000 season ticket holders vs. 18 000 single game tickets and group sales, the 14 000 group is much more likely to produce more revenue over the long-term.

Many people (myself, and if I remember correctly, you self-admittedly) have spent much less money lately. The hardcore supporters aren't as easily replaced. Maybe for a few months, but not over the long-term.

[ag futbol]

A lot of the arguments defending Winter are simply repeating his his initial vision of what he wants to happen. People who have been critical are saying "look at the results". Those who back Winter are saying the long term will be better while those who disagree tend to point out we have very little evidence he's capable of doing anything better in the long run.

My point has been (and will continue to be the following):

1) Performance to date has been shit. The excuses (Mo Johnston, prior contract, Winter bringing in "his" players, injuries) are disingenuous at best.

2) We haven't had very long to judge so he still has plenty of time to find his barrings and prove himself. Let's all hope he does.

[Roogsy]

There is most certainly a difference between people in the stadium. Well 5000 vs. 20 000 is a large discrepancy, if its 14 000 season ticket holders vs. 18 000 single game tickets and group sales, the 14 000 group is much more likely to produce more revenue over the long-term.

Many people (myself, and if I remember correctly, you self-admittedly) have spent much less money lately. The hardcore supporters aren't as easily replaced. Maybe for a few months, but not over the long-term.

I absolutely agree.

The problem is that the argument from BBTB and others is that what matters are the "diehard" supporters and the fairweather fan does not matter...to them at least. My argument is that both are needed at their maximum spending power for a team to reach it's full potential. Having either group spend less or eliminate their spending completely (which happens with a fanbase that is continuously exposed to poor results) will have a domino effect throughout the entire team experience. The argument that poor results won't affect team revenues and thus the re-investment the team puts back into the club is outright false. And poor results DO affect revenues from all classification of groups, whether they be the diehards or the fairweather fans. So any fan that says "I don't care if the stadium is full or 25% capacity" obviously does not care about the team's well-being and competitiveness as much as they should.

And you are correct, I count myself as an experience that backs up my claim. My spending for 2011 compared to 2010 is down roughly 80% in all areas of spending, from tickets to concessions to merchandise. I will challenge anyone to argue that on a fan-wide basis this does not affect the team's willingness to invest more into this club in order to have a better chance to compete.

[Jenkins12]

A lot of the arguments defending Winter are simply repeating his his initial vision of what he wants to happen. People who have been critical are saying "look at the results". Those who back Winter are saying the long term will be better while those who disagree tend to point out we have very little evidence he's capable of doing anything better in the long run.

My point has been (and will continue to be the following):

1) Performance to date has been shit. The excuses (Mo Johnston, prior contract, Winter bringing in "his" players, injuries) are disingenuous at best.

2) We haven't had very long to judge so he still has plenty of time to find his barrings and prove himself. Let's all hope he does.

I think the bottom line is, if you don't have the players your fucked thats why he deserves this transfer window and the rest of the season before people start calling for his head.

Hears to a strong transfer window and a better 2nd half to the season :drinking:

[Oldtimer]

And you are correct, I count myself as an experience that backs up my claim. My spending for 2011 compared to 2010 is down roughly 80% in all areas of spending, from tickets to concessions to merchandise. I will challenge anyone to argue that on a fan-wide basis this does not affect the team's willingness to invest more into this club in order to have a better chance to compete.

It really depends on how ML$E reads the situation.

PPl say "don't spend anything to send ML$E a message!" ML$E could react one of 2 ways:

(1) Spending is down! We better spend to make things better to bring back the fans!

(2) Spending is down! The bubble has burst. Better cut club spending to face the new reality.

[Fort York Redcoat]

When it comes to a team's fanbase, there is no credible argument of "quality instead of quantity". In the world of sports, quantity IS the only valid argument and anyone espousing this "I'd rather have 5,000 hardcore supporters in the stands vs 20,000 fairweather fans" doesn't know the business of sports or what it takes to build a successful franchise.

When a fanbase declines, revenues decline. When revenues decline, the quality of the product declines. When the quality of product declines, it becomes all that much more difficult to return to previous, higher levels. It's an uphill battle that was never necessary to be fought. It's tying a millstone around your neck unecessarily.

This outlook or more like business model varies to a degree depending on what part of the world one is in. While the model will always work to a point, a franchise mentality alone doesn't ensure stability in the many teams of the lower leagues in the UK. While here in NA it's still underappreciated, the business obviously sees the positive aspects of marketing a small dedicated fanbase. What we are witnessing is the test of how much this fanbase is worth for a franchise vs an old club.

[Roogsy]

It really depends on how ML$E reads the situation.

PPl say "don't spend anything to send ML$E a message!" ML$E could react one of 2 ways:

(1) Spending is down! We better spend to make things better to bring back the fans!

(2) Spending is down! The bubble has burst. Better cut club spending to face the new reality.

Being that our friends at MLSE have already told us that they are driven by "economics" and that their reasons for pricing things the way they have is "supply and demand", based on this track record which of these do you think is most likely?

[Beach_Red]

Being that our friends at MLSE have already told us that they are driven by "economics" and that their reasons for pricing things the way they have is "supply and demand", based on this track record which of these do you think is most likely?


This is what's most frustrating. It feels like we invested money in a business for four years and then they said, "Oh, we screwed up, sorry," and announced a new direction. It feels like our "share purchase" was wasted and mismanaged and now it's their turn to step up and make some investment in the team that hasn't already been paid for. But you're right, they've been very upfront that that's not how they do business, they don't deficit spend, they don't take many risks.

People are very patient to give them another transfer window (or two as some are saying) given the history here, but there's really no choice.

[Oldtimer]

Being that our friends at MLSE have already told us that they are driven by "economics" and that their reasons for pricing things the way they have is "supply and demand", based on this track record which of these do you think is most likely?

You know, I don't really know.

The only thing I know for sure is that the thinking at ML$E tends to be too short-term.

[CSO_BBTB]

The problem I see with TFC right now is that the marketing team need to hold onto to the very large season ticket base to protect the myth that it was their expertise and marketing genius rather than pent-up latent demand for D1 soccer (the Blizzard were left high and dry by what happened elsewhere in the NASL as far back as early 1985) and the Beckham signing that created the year one sellouts. Rather than accepting that it is inevitable that some people are going to fall by the wayside as the reality of what it means to support an MLS team sinks in we get increasingly desperate marketing ploys like the "total football" nonsense after Winter was appointed to try to briefly recreate the initial euphoria for brief periods that are long enough to meet short term sales targets (no doubt bonuses kick in and post-Peddie promotion prospects are enhanced as a result) and to try to justify some of the grossly inflated ticket prices once you move beyond the supporters section and light greys.

If people need regular success to keep being "supporters" they should probably stick to watching Manchester United on cable and save themselves a lot of unnecessary mental anguish given there are likely to be as many or more prolonged lean spells as there will be golden eras for TFC in the years ahead given the way the league is structured to create parity and is expanding in numbers terms over time towards the standard North American major league size of 30 to 32 teams. If Owen Hargreaves is signed to a DP deal to try to convince people like that on a subliminal level that they will be able to do the gloryhunting thing at BMO Field we will be well and truly through the looking glass into the land of delusional make believe but arguably I am in the wrong thread for that comment....

[Roogsy]

You are presenting a false dilemma. The available choices are not limited to supporting TFC, a shit team that will always be shit or gloryhunt Manchester United. There is middle-ground you know.

[CSO_BBTB]

Last post for today but may pick this up again in a day or two. Think you are maybe being argumentative for the sake of it with that given I see one of the reasons for being shit relative to the rest of MLS as being the short term marketing ploy stuff. A missed set of bonuses for the sales team and a reordering of priorities might help nudge things into being above average in organizational terms in the long term meaning fewer fans approach their breaking point in loyalty terms so yes there is some middle ground. MLSE should really still be in franchise building mode with TFC seen as a long term investment with an eye to where soccer will be a generation from now but the people at helm (mainly Beirne and Anselmi) probably have no built in financial incentive to adopt that approach and clearly lack the expertise to know what needs to be done in soccer terms. Hopefully the Klinsmann consultancy was a legitimate case of seeking much needed advice on that but it could easily have been just another desperate short-term marketing ploy. Time will tell.

[Roogsy]

Your argument is MLSE should view TFC as a "placeholder" for when soccer really takes off in this country "a generation from now"? I am truly floored.

[CSO_BBTB]

Probably shouldn't wait 24 hours to point out that's a rhetorical device known as a strawman argument. Over and out for now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_argument

[ExiledRed]

oh dear god..........hahahahahaha

Without commenting left or right, that made my day.

[Fort York Redcoat]

You are presenting a false dilemma. The available choices are not limited to supporting TFC, a shit team that will always be shit or gloryhunt Manchester United. There is middle-ground you know.

If you want to call yourself a supporter...well yeah. Otherwise I don't know why else you'd be here.

[ExiledRed]

If you want to call yourself a supporter...well yeah. Otherwise I don't know why else you'd be here.

You should check the link on BBTB's post, some interesting stuff there....

[Roogsy]

Probably shouldn't wait 24 hours to point out that's a rhetorical device known as a strawman argument. Over and out for now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_argument


When the qutoes are directly from your own statement, how can they be a strawman argument?

[Roogsy]

If you want to call yourself a supporter...well yeah. Otherwise I don't know why else you'd be here.


Interesting. So a supporter should never demand better? Good to know. Now I know I am not a supporter.

That's a relief! Phew!

[bgnewf]

TFC Loses Away to RSL - Video Blog

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/06/tfc-loses-away-to-rsl/

In a much delayed video blog I take a look back at the loss away this past weekend in Salt Lake City and I try to put the defeat into some sort of context.

I also take a look at where TFC finds itself at the MLS season half way point and how the relatively poor results to date are actually not in the abstract much of a surprise based on what many of us actually thought going into the season. I also look ahead at the next two key matchups versus Vancouver and ask whether one is more important than the other.

Your comments are always welcome and appreciated in this space. Please let us know what you think.