Pg...Seattle 1 Toronto 0

[Batman]

yet again

[Chevy]

On the bright side its time to play the kids, relax a little and enjoy the rest of the summer.

Cue the Debbie Downers.....

[ag futbol]

Well I hope this puts out the dimly lit idea some people had this club was making progress recently.

[Soccerpro]

TFC was a man up for the entire 2nd half and could only create 1, yes that's right, 1 actual goal scoring chance. They have absolutely nothing going forward without Gordon.
I put some of the blame on Winter for this one. TFC were playing great with Sturgis running the midfield first half, so he subs out Sturgis for Cordon at half time and Cordon gives the ball away 5-6 times second half. I like Cordon a lot, but that was the wrong move.
Henry is turning into TFC's best defender. Hard to be mad at him for the foul which resulted in Seattle's free kick goal.
Yourass is an embarassment. Isn't Winter embarassed to see him diving and complaining out there?
The only players I saw worth keeping out there tonight for TFC were Frei, Eckersley, Henry and strangely enough for once, Sturgis. Get rid of everyone else this offseason.

[bertal]

We're shite. If you can't capitalize on your chances... You don't win.

[Alixir]

fuck I hate when I type a book and press post only to be told the thread is closed.
Anyhoo aside from that shit...I must say BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! I was telling my wifes sister right when the Sounders were lining up for that free kick that TFC was going to get scored on right here cause they always blow it at the end of the game, told her I was even willing to bet money on it....they certainly did not disappoint in that regard.

[Eastend]

Fuck, just fuck.

[Azerban]

winter out

[Batman]

fuck I hate when I type a book and press post only to be told the thread is closed.
Anyhoo aside from that shit...I must say BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! I was telling my wifes sister right when the Sounders were lining up for that free kick that TFC was going to get scored on right here cause they always blow it at the end of the game, told her I was even willing to bet money on it....they certainly did not disappoint in that regard.


sorry.. usually I give a heads up..tonight I didnt think of it.. I was just too pissed off.

[cochrdoc]

Our attacking players are just not good enough.Let`s send them home and bring another bunch in for the second half of the season.Henry has really played well and I think has more promise the Attakora or Cann.I also think Sturgis has been playing well.

[boysblue]

We're shite. If you can capitalize on your chances... You don't win.


aw c'mon son. give the boys a break would ya. keep in mind that we have a couple of key injuries, the lads played a full 90 minutes on wednesday night and, to top it all off, we played the second half against 10 sounders....it is not like it was 8 or 9 of them. fuck they had 10!

you mark my words, the smart guys at mlse are working on this as i type and they will have it all sorted out soon enough.

remember lads....all for one. :canada:

[flambe]

Get rid of everyone else this offseason.

Yeah, cause rebuilding into season 6 is a sure way to proceed.
:rolleyes:

[Batman]

I hope it doesnt sound like an excuse, but we really do drop off in form without Gordon.. his being out so many games has really hurt us.

We just dont have enough quality and depth.

[Blixa]

So how many of you fuckers still think we can make the playoffs?

[cochrdoc]

We have released alot better players then what is on our roster now.Most of these players are not going to bring you much success in this league.

[Redcoe15]

This was a new way to lose big. Have the Seattle Thugs go down a man early in the second half, then let them harass and attack TFC the rest of the way, then see Punk Montero score on a free kick with time running out in the game.

DIS-FUCKING-GUSTING!!!!! :prrr: :prrr: :prrr: :prrr: :prrr:

[TFC07]

I will wait and see who TFC sign next month before officially giving up hope of making to playoffs and CCL.

But when need an AM and forward desperately!

[ag futbol]

Yeah, cause rebuilding into season 6 is a sure way to proceed.
:rolleyes:
Well realistically whether we call it "rebuilding through blowing this up" or "rebuilding through continuing what we started here" we're still going to be rebuilding for the start of next year.

[QSIM]

Simply unacceptable.

[ForestGlade]

The schedule only gets harder from here

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-CS2zuhq8KU0/TYiWwKAztLI/AAAAAAAABAo/t-wG9RiKybI/s1600/debbie.jpg

[Alixir]

Well realistically whether we call it "rebuilding through blowing this up" or "rebuilding through continuing what we started here" we're still going to be rebuilding for the start of next year."rebuilding" is just a term teams use to justify shit product or an inability to properly put a team together.

[v00d00daddy]

TFC was a man up for the entire 2nd half and could only create 1, yes that's right, 1 actual goal scoring chance. They have absolutely nothing going forward without Gordon.
I put some of the blame on Winter for this one. TFC were playing great with Sturgis running the midfield first half, so he subs out Sturgis for Cordon at half time and Cordon gives the ball away 5-6 times second half. I like Cordon a lot, but that was the wrong move.
Henry is turning into TFC's best defender. Hard to be mad at him for the foul which resulted in Seattle's free kick goal.
Yourass is an embarassment. Isn't Winter embarassed to see him diving and complaining out there?
The only players I saw worth keeping out there tonight for TFC were Frei, Eckersley, Henry and strangely enough for once, Sturgis. Get rid of everyone else this offseason.

This is hilarious. It was a bad performance but I wonder if you were eat hint the same game.

Henry was adequate defensively but if you're worried about players giving the ball away cheaply he was culprit #1.

He can't move the ball at all. But that's okay. He's young and can learn.

It's upsetting that they lost but what can you do. They don't have the horses yet. Hopefully theyll add well at the transfer window

[kaos197O]

I was sure we would win this one.

Anyhow, I am somehow learnIng to find a way to enjoy losing.

Is that good?:noidea:

[Yohan]

Well. The sounders supporters that made the trip certainly got their moneys worth. How generous of us.

[TFC1154ever]

I retire.

[Alixir]

I was sure we would win this one.

Anyhow, I am somehow learnIng to find a way to enjoy losing.

Is that good?:noidea:thats why I bet my wifes sister a whopping 2 dollars that Seattle would score on that free kick...Once you have come to expect this kind of shit from this team life gets easier...no more yelling and swearing when we blow it late, no more cursing and fits when we embarrass ourselves in the football world. I have taken the zen approach to watching this teams many failures. Now if you will excuse me I have to go rake some stones.

[Alixir]

Well. The sounders supporters that made the trip certainly got their moneys worth. How generous of us.this is what chaps my ass!!

[Hustle]

hahahahaha. all I can do is laugh at this point. What a heartbreaker...another one.

[felipe]

I must have been watching a different game than you guys; I thought we played a great first half, and the second half wasn't great, but at least they're playing soccer instead of 'hoof and hope'; On the whole, I found the performance very encouraging and a step in the right direction

[69Chevy396]

We had our chances again, but so does that team that plays the harlem globe trotters, they get chances too, and have not won a game in thirty years. TFC will never win or be an interesting or entertaining club as long as they are owned by mlse. I am bailing out. More interesting things to do with my weekends.

[brad]

Yeah, cause rebuilding into season 6 is a sure way to proceed.
:rolleyes:

This assumes th the Season V rebuild is actually successful. It may be necessary again in season 6.

[brad]

A designated player that can win you a game. What a novel concept.

[Red4ever]

In lieu of starting a "fuck it, I'm out" thread. I will post in here. the prose that I could concoct will not warrant such a self-aggrandizing post.

I'll just say this, I was saying to Carlos before the game at Joe's how much I love going to games this season because I don't have to worry about spending an arm and a leg to scalpers to watch (and take people to) shitty shitty soccer.

After Today, I dont feel that way. This was the worst game i've ever watched.

I am officially done putting my heart and soul into this team until they give me something in return.

Fuck them.

[Yohan]

It wasnt a total disaster of a game but not being able to put one in being up a man for a half shows some problems. Hardly anyone made runs from the middle to exploit man advantage and to create space. I think fortress bmo consisted of the turf screwing with other teams. Now grass makes it so friendly for the opposition

[Beach_Red]

It wasnt a total disaster of a game but not being able to put one in being up a man for a half shows some problems. Hardly anyone made runs from the middle to exploit man advantage and to create space. I think fortress bmo consisted of the turf screwing with other teams. Now grass makes it so friendly for the opposition

This team will get better, no doubt, but they'll hit a glass cieling in the middle of the table and won't be able to get past that because they'll never have a good enough roster to play the style they want. They'll never have the depth, one or two injuries will be all it takes. And they can't grind out a win (tried that last year and we didn't like it).

[123 elite]

I must have been watching a different game than you guys; I thought we played a great first half, and the second half wasn't great, but at least they're playing soccer instead of 'hoof and hope'; On the whole, I found the performance very encouraging and a step in the right direction

I lost count of how many times Frei just booted the ball up the park. The teams a fucking joke. Where's the system?. What the latest math on a playoff place now? The team didn't even head up to the corner at the end. How anyone can say anything positive now is beyond me. Shit show.

[manic.street.preacher]

was it just me or did TFC play worse when they were up a man?

[kaos197O]

was it just me or did TFC play worse when they were up a man?

Naw. Not just you. It was real. Sad but real.

[alex andrew]

I lost count of how many times Frei just booted the ball up the park.

exactly, and i think this was winter's fault.

i mean, on every one against one, seattles were better, stronger, faster, they won mostly every time.

so why not avoid playing hope hope hope ?

keep the ball on the grass and try to outsmart them, while conserving energy.

[Yohan]

A designated player that can win you a game. What a novel concept.

Montero woke up for one moment of brilliance. Hes been very ordinary for seattle this yr

[profit89]

I hope it doesnt sound like an excuse, but we really do drop off in form without Gordon.. his being out so many games has really hurt us.

We just dont have enough quality and depth.

The linchpin of our team is Alan Gordon. Wow. What does that say about this league. Not good.

[Yohan]

The linchpin of our team is Alan Gordon. Wow. What does that say about this league. Not good.

How is tfcs reliance on target man striker the leagues fault?

Kinda like saying boltons reliance on kevin davies is epls fault

[LesH]

I must have been watching a different game than you guys; I thought we played a great first half, and the second half wasn't great, but at least they're playing soccer instead of 'hoof and hope'; On the whole, I found the performance very encouraging and a step in the right direction

You're joking, right?

[TFC USA]

On the bright side its time to play the kids, relax a little and enjoy the rest of the summer.

Cue the Debbie Downers.....

It's year fucking five.

[brad]

was it just me or did TFC play worse when they were up a man?

We played worse when we subbed Cordon on for Sturgis.

[Yohan]

We played worse when we subbed Cordon on for Sturgis.

I really wanna know why sturgis got subbed.

[alex andrew]

i think winter made the most mistakes.

the way i'm looking at it now, seattle played in 10, we played in 8, on a rotating basis, can't put a finger on three players, but they took turns, and it wasn't them, it was aaron.

[TFC Cityboy]

I was offended that none of the players had the fuckin bollocks to applaud the south stand tonight.
Disgraceful

[J .]

For me TFC deserved a better fate. In all, I think you can summarize the game in two comparative free kicks. Montero vs Sturgis. Skill vs not good enough.

Winters acquisitions for his wide strikers are not providing the necessary attack. Plata, Soolsma and Martina have been absent for way too often. They have moments in possession, but in the 433, you need scoring and they do not provide that.

Stevanovic is a complete bust. I hope they send him back to Torino. Just horrible. His passing, dribbling, technique, the stuff he said he provided has been a complete failure and he was supposed to be "the guy" who was going to make things happen. I cannot express how much of a failure he is in my eyes. I hope he turns it around, but I dont believe in him as a player anymore.

Winter is looking like a horrible choice and unfortunately he will likely not be fired even though he tactically appears out of his depth. Ive yet to see him really adjust when teams do. Nowak made him look foolish, Schmid put on a clinic on how to play counter attack with only ten men (not to mention bring in solid players in your first season as coach). I'm disappointed in him.

Borman is looking better and Eckersley put in the 2nd best cross in TFC history today launching a ball perfectly to Plata to went on to do nothing with it. Sad I can remeber that stuff. Best cross was in NY from Johann Smith to Fuad Ibrahim who cooley slotted the ball in - and then went on to do nothing with his career. Hopefully Borman improves his defending so we can have settled our LB and RB positions. Also Henry appears to be looking like a solid prospect. Sturgis appears to be an adequate replacement for JDG or fill in for Tchani for now.

Without players in the attacking three and an attacking mid who can dictate play, TFC will continue to lose.

Hopefully people are enjoying their attacking football, cause thats the most important thing. Not winning, not points... This time last year TFC was in the middle of a run that saw us beat Cruz Azul. Just sayin.

[PopePouri]

All I can say is that the July transfer window can't come fast enough. After that, I'll be able to assess of Mariner/Winter if they're good enough. I do agree with Winter that they were the better team and were unlucky but that's the difference between Toronto and Seattle. Sheer brilliance from a decent DP who made his own luck. We have JDG.

[Roogsy]

I didnt' watch the game. I was at a family get-together and they're not TFC fans so the Gold Cup game was on instead. So I watched the game in 6 minutes when I got home and it seemed like it was a pretty even game and that a little luck could have changed the game. That Martina opportunity could have given us 3 points. But now that I read the posts, can someone tell me how the team played? The TFC video seemed to show the game pretty even. Until I got on to the board I just thought it was a badluck loss. Did the team play poorly?

[LesH]

One thing is that the quality of the majority of our players sucks big time, even for a second rate league like MLS.

But I find a deeper problem that Winter has demonstrated too many times already in my eyes that he's incapable to motivate his players, to breed in them the winning mentality, which is essential to the success of any team.
And this won't change, even if we'll get 3-4 better new players into the squad.

[manic.street.preacher]

^personally, i thought we played better v Revs on wednesday


I really wanna know why sturgis got subbed.
^this exactly

also, minus that one legit foul, Yourassowsky was driving me bonkers with how easy he went to ground

[SirBobSaget]

TFC was a man up for the entire 2nd half and could only create 1, yes that's right, 1 actual goal scoring chance. They have absolutely nothing going forward without Gordon.
I put some of the blame on Winter for this one. TFC were playing great with Sturgis running the midfield first half, so he subs out Sturgis for Cordon at half time and Cordon gives the ball away 5-6 times second half. I like Cordon a lot, but that was the wrong move.
Henry is turning into TFC's best defender. Hard to be mad at him for the foul which resulted in Seattle's free kick goal.
Yourass is an embarassment. Isn't Winter embarassed to see him diving and complaining out there?
The only players I saw worth keeping out there tonight for TFC were Frei, Eckersley, Henry and strangely enough for once, Sturgis. Get rid of everyone else this offseason.

PLata should have had an assist on the cross along goal mouth. Good performance by him. I would say the whole back line (including Harden) and Plata played like they belonged. In front only Sturgis and Plata.

[TFC Cityboy]

I didnt' watch the game. I was at a family get-together and they're not TFC fans so the Gold Cup game was on instead. So I watched the game in 6 minutes when I get home and it seemed like it was a pretty even game and that a little luck could have changed the game. That Martina opportunity could have given us 3 points. But now that I read the posts, can someone tell me how the team played? The TFC video seemed to show the game pretty even. Until I got on to the board I just thought it was a badluck loss. Did the team play poorly?

we were a man up for almost 40 min and Seattle would have won with me in goal....no threat, no final ball- dull game all in all. Seattle were poor and there for the taking.With Gordon/without having played midweek, we'd likely have won.

[SoccMan]

Someone please tell me that Sturgis did not play in the second half because of injury, because if he was just taken off by Winter to put Cordon in his place then that was the worst coaching decision in TFC history, please tell me Sturgis came off due to injury.

[Beach_Red]

I didnt' watch the game. I was at a family get-together and they're not TFC fans so the Gold Cup game was on instead. So I watched the game in 6 minutes when I got home and it seemed like it was a pretty even game and that a little luck could have changed the game. That Martina opportunity could have given us 3 points. But now that I read the posts, can someone tell me how the team played? The TFC video seemed to show the game pretty even. Until I got on to the board I just thought it was a badluck loss. Did the team play poorly?

The team played as well as it can. This seems like this is it. This is not a team that will ever "punch above its weight" so one or two moments of bad luck will always be the difference.

Once in a while TFC will get a few lucky breaks (Martina scoring instead of hitting the post) but it always feels like the other team will make adjustments.

[Roogsy]

That's too bad.

I know I have been very negative on the team but I certainly always go into a game hoping they would win. The whole night I was thinking about whether a win tonight would make hopefully start a good run for the team. It has to start sometime right?

I know there are lots of people on here that object to the amount that I criticize the team, but I honestly believe there is reason for it and I care enough to want things to be fixed. And I always remember that it could be worse, I could not care at all and be like some of those many people that are leaving the stands possibly to not come back for a long time.

I am not going to rant about management tonight. I will just be sad for my team.

[MG42]

Someone please tell me that Sturgis did not play in the second half because of injury, because if he was just taken off by Winter to put Cordon in his place then that was the worst coaching decision in TFC history, please tell me Sturgis came off due to injury.

Sturgis did not play in the second half because of injury

http://www.torontofc.ca/sites/default/files/tfc_Beirne.jpg

[Yohan]

Someone please tell me that Sturgis did not play in the second half because of injury, because if he was just taken off by Winter to put Cordon in his place then that was the worst coaching decision in TFC history, please tell me Sturgis came off due to injury.
if Sturgis wasn't injured, only reason that I can think of for the sub is that Winter thought that TFC had the run of play for most of first half, and needed just a little more offence to push for a goal in Cordon. Except it backfired big time.

[TFC Cityboy]

"REBUILD REBUILD REBUILD REBUILD REBUILD"

Sorry...just have to keep saying that so I don't go ballistic on that shower of shite who couldn't muster up the bollocks to show some appreciation for the support we provided tonight.

[Soccersteve]

Gotta agree with your sentiments AND at the same time does it really take 5-6 years of team building to perform well & to claim a place in the post season...................I THINK NOT

PURE & SIMPLE................take a quick look at SEATTLE and their situation...I think that says a lot.............

TFC 4 years back-back no play offs................

This season again we`ll miss the play offs..........

Every season has been well supported by TFC fans BUT when will this team ever repay the loyalty shown to them by the most loyal fan base in the MLS.....................

This franchise can only offer up excuses...............it`s time to let the club feel the heat.....................will you buy a season ticket next season and why will you........loyalty is one thing but paying to get no return ( no play offs padded with another dismal season ) is absurd.

I`m Red Till I`m Dead But this season is yet another train crash.

P.S. winning the nutilite doesn`t cut it!

[Yohan]

I don't know why TFC central midfielders are afraid to make a run into the box. gets pretty damn predictable working the ball up the wing and launch a hopeful cross into a set opposition defence, esp TFC attackers aren't very good in the air except Gordon. is it me, or nobody seems to make effective late/trailing runs or give options just outside the box from the wing? seems like CMs are ball watching and waiting to react to the cross instead of trying to create space with movements around the box

[ngrunberg]

I'm new to the boards but have watched almost every minute of the past 3.5 seasons... there is a system in place and slowly it is coming together, they are playing well and dominated much of the 1st half. The second he was shown the 2nd yellow I turned to my buddy and said - we are going to lose 1 - 0. Before that I was feeling confident but the Sounders buttoned up the hatch and didn't let us build anything up and sure enough scored on a dumb set piece late in the game. Dissapointing, yes! BUT I still always go back to the fact that RSL slipped into the playoffs 2 years ago out of nowhere with a late run and our dumb loss in New York and the next thing you know they are champs and now look unstoppable.
We have guys that are showing promise and pieces are coming together:
Frei - as always
Ecks - at RB is outstanding
Henry - is only going to get better and with a confident ball handling partner will be under far less pressure to create
Borman - is young and looks good despite the criticism, he is super young
Tchani - same as borman, at times terrible but Henry, him and Borman have all shown glimpses of solid play together
Gordon - up top has followed the trend of so many strikers that have moved through TFC where they were role players until late 20s and became big time rough and tumble strikers
Depth at wings between Plata, Martina, Stevanivic (all still very young) and even Soolsma.. even if those 4 plus Cordon, Sturgis and Yourass just make the depth of our midfield and wings that is pretty solid...
We are IMO (and dozens of others that have said the same) a talented Central Defender and a stud AM away from being good. PLUS for the first time ever we have the depth to support it. With the exception of RB I would feel fine with any of the cover we have today if we add those 2 spots during this transfer window and then make a late run and slide into the playoffs...
cue the "who let the new guy speak"

[Pookie]

It was a nice night.

[ag futbol]

Interestingly enough I've been watching a few Whitecaps games lately and they seem to have the opposite problems we do. They've found players like Chuimiento, Camilo, and DeMerit who make up the "skilled" portion of their team. Their issue seems to be that the rest of their roster isn't good enough. They kept too many USL-1 quality guys and assumed that would be good enough when it wasn't.

Toronto on the other hand seems to have a large number of meddling average level professionals but failed to identify game changers. Not clear exactly who Winter was counting on to be real catalysts for this team but nobody has done a great job. Stevanovic was probably expected to be one (judging by his pay packet) but he's been a complete bust.

[alex andrew]

I didnt' watch the game. Did the team play poorly?

hey roogsy, here's my story.

- seattle started better, after 6 minutes i could tell it won't be easy.
- they hit the post on a very nice play, remember it was a huge mistake by one of the defenders, don't want to remember who it was.
- wasn't worried yet, i knew that a big first effort is draining, and then the other team gets the momentum.
- which momentum started somewhat, but only to be missleading, meaning that seattle rested while we ran like a headless chicken.
- all physical contacts were in favour of seattle.
- everybody in red shirts played plata, plata, plata and then plata, why ? it's not his mandate to solve the problems of mlse before being allowed to smoke or to drink in toronto.
- the bearer of pele's, maradona's and hagi's number, a catastrophe, but that's not news.
- playing against ten, we relaxed, so basically we played in 9, i said earlier 8, but hey...
- we had a chance late in the game, but again, it takes skill or tons of luck to score in a fast paced play.
- can't remember santos at all
- all in all, it wasn't bad, we played well against an inspired coach and a stronger team.

[manic.street.preacher]

Toronto on the other hand seems to have a large number of meddling average level professionals but failed to identify game changers. Not clear exactly who Winter was counting on to be real catalysts for this team but nobody has done a great job. Stevanovic was probably expected to be one (judging by his pay packet) but he's been a complete bust.

^this ... imo Winter has underestimated the quality of mls, or at least how difficult it can be, parity, etc ... but as this is a rebuilding year, and with the transfer window coming soon, let's hope he can right the ship (cos that's the only bit of hope i have right now for this season)

[geordie77]

can anyone give me any reason why after 4 seasons that I should spend 5 hours of my ^%$^* weekend watching &^%$&* crap week after week after week???????

[Oldtimer]

I looked up at the start of the game, and Bitchy was looking away from the pitch. Yes, even Bitchy can't stand to watch this team!

[mastermixer]

Has tfc had a history of picking up anything significant during the summer transfer window? Why does everyone seem to think this year will be different?

[123 elite]

I didnt' watch the game. I was at a family get-together and they're not TFC fans so the Gold Cup game was on instead. So I watched the game in 6 minutes when I got home and it seemed like it was a pretty even game and that a little luck could have changed the game. That Martina opportunity could have given us 3 points. But now that I read the posts, can someone tell me how the team played? The TFC video seemed to show the game pretty even. Until I got on to the board I just thought it was a badluck loss. Did the team play poorly?

They played as normal. The defence wasn't too bad. henry and Ecks were good. The problem IMO is there is no midfield. They can't take the ball out of defence and they can't support the feeble attack we have. Tonights variation was the Frei long punt to Santos soolsma or the 4ft 2 Plata. I mean like how often is that going to work out for you? Any attack was the equivalent of kicking a ball off a wall and having no-one to kick it back. Yourass and stefanovic are just garbage. They provide nothing to this team. Guys like Plata and martina can provide all the crosses they want but we have nobody that can convert and nobody in midfield that can collect any cleared ball and either shoot or do something constructive with it. Thats where the main weakness in teh team has been all season. All it takes is one slip and the games over. and thats what happened as usual.
The cordon Sturgis sub was baffling. If it was an injury then fair enough. Subbing Gargan in at the end was utterly pointless.

The only plus from tonights game was that if ever there was proof that we are wasting 1.7 million a season on de guzman it was tonight. Its the same with or without him. So may as well spend it on what we need.

[boysblue]

Has tfc had a history of picking up anything significant during the summer transfer window? Why does everyone seem to think this year will be different?


hmmmm.....interesting. but remember, the smart guys at mlse are all over this now and they will get this mess sorted out asap. you just watch.

remember....all for one. :canada:

[Whoop]

TFC is like the gas stations.

You know how the gas stations jack up the price to like $1.40/L and then when the price drops to $1.25/L everyone is happy, yet four weeks earlier gas was regularly a $1.20/L.

With TFC your expectations keep dropping and dropping to the point that when the team wins a match everyone will be praising Jeebus.

I thought TFC was okay and just failed to capitalize a chance given to them by the ref when Seattle went down a man. TFC should have put Seattle away. Instead it just took one moment of brilliance from Montero to seal the deal for Seattle.

As mentioned I thought the midfield was terrible and as someone else mentioned, the Cordon for Sturgis substitution. I thought Sturgis was doing alright and while Cordon is the "future" I thought he was below average tonight.

Oh well.

[billyfly]

Ugh. Where's a good 'ol Vancouver riot when you need one?

[Blizzard]

I really wanna know why sturgis got subbed.

Injured. Winter discusses it in his post-match presser over at TFC-TV. (http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=2&id=3285)

[Juanito]

Sigh. Another tough loss. This is a match they should have won, especially since we were up most of the second half.

I'm not sure what to say.

[backbeat]

Sturgis was subbed off for potential injury as he was hurting...

i actually thought we played well with 11 and couldn't finish with a man up - we need some leadership on the pitch with a creative attacking mind...hopefully in the window we will sign an AM and striker

i was pleasantly pleased with Henry and dare i say it Harden...the back 4 were not the problem and the mids were ok

for me it was the centre forward and right wing (not enough pace) - nothing was happening with santos

Stevanovic had close to his best game tonight

we need a top 3 that can close it down

[bertal]

Montero woke up for one moment of brilliance. Hes been very ordinary for seattle this yr

i was thinking the exact same thing... then the cunt scores the winner

[TFCREDNWHITE]

The abosolute worst thing that they could do right now, is if they fire Aron and Bob...that would be a total wrong move and a disaster!... All that would do is start us from zero AGAIN! I'm sick of starting from zero every fucking year!

I hope they keep this coaching staff for the next little while...

[A.J]

I don't know why TFC central midfielders are afraid to make a run into the box. gets pretty damn predictable working the ball up the wing and launch a hopeful cross into a set opposition defence, esp TFC attackers aren't very good in the air except Gordon. is it me, or nobody seems to make effective late/trailing runs or give options just outside the box from the wing? seems like CMs are ball watching and waiting to react to the cross instead of trying to create space with movements around the box

I disagree. Yourassowsky, Soolsma, and Stevanovic all love to run into the box (and subsequently fall over and try to draw a foul). I'd rather see more deadly through passes into the box instead.


Also, Henry is a solid defender, young, etc. etc., but he needs to learn to pass.

[Juanito]

The abosolute worst thing that they could do right now, is if they fire Aron and Bob...that would be a total wrong move and a disaster!... All that would do is start us from zero AGAIN! I'm sick of starting from zero every fucking year!

I hope they keep this coaching staff for the next little while...



They have to. Whether they're shit or not, this club needs stability. If they decide to fire these guys, there will be a mass exodus from BMO. It may happen anyway, but there is a chance most people will have a bit more patience.

[cmonyoureds]

I just wanna know how they explain this crap show in a town hall meeting this offseason. Please buy season 6, it'll be craptacular.

[prizby]

yourassowsky needs to STOP diving

[andyc]

The abosolute worst thing that they could do right now, is if they fire Aron and Bob...that would be a total wrong move and a disaster!... All that would do is start us from zero AGAIN! I'm sick of starting from zero every fucking year!

Agreed as long as we believe that they are the long term solution...

I want to believe but I'm really not sure...

Andy

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

It wasn't that bad, an entertaining match even. We clearly need some more attacking options / some else who can play the "Gordon role". Winter's right, they're progressing, it's painfully slow, but it's there.

It will be interesting to see what they do in the transfer window.

[ag futbol]

I just wanna know how they explain this crap show in a town hall meeting this offseason. Please buy season 6, it'll be craptacular.
Probably something like this:

http://www.allmotivated.com/pictures/Demotivational-pictures-begging.jpg

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

yourassowsky needs to STOP diving

Sorry for the double post. I'm not convinced he is diving, or at least diving all or most of the time. He certainly mixes it up physically, seems to let his temper get the better of him though. To bad he doesn't have much of a shot, there where times he had a lot of space in front of goal.

[TFCDP]

He's a diving c**t.... No room for that on the team.. I used to like Yourassowsky but now am growing to hate him..

I feel like flipping a car over and lighting it on fire.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

^ I think we're in agree to disagree territory here. I think if you go back and look at this game, you'll find that most of the times he was rolling on the ground where genuine.

[TFCDP]

So.. of the 10 times he was rolling around on the ground, 8 were genuine... Hes going to have to spend the next week in an ice bath.

[A.J]

He's a diving c**t.... No room for that on the team.. I used to like Yourassowsky but now am growing to hate him..

I feel like flipping a car over and lighting it on fire.

Too soon.. too soon...

[DangerRed]

So, who wants to tell me I'm being too negative now?

Someone in my section tried to start a fucking wave today, just as we were about to get scored upon.

I hope CBlake had a "fun gameday experience" today.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

^ I saw the same thing too. The wave . . . shivers, I'd rather barf chilli fries through my nose (again).

Was this the section where they seat the parents / kids who are the mascots and hold the Scotts turf signs?

[DangerRed]

^ I saw the same thing too. The wave . . . shivers, I'd rather barf chilli fries through my nose (again).

Was this the section where they seat the parents / kids who are the mascots and hold the Scotts turf signs?

I should've been clearer - I'm in 225, this shit started in 227. Then everyone in my section started screaming "this isn't a fucking Jays game." Then Seattle scored.

And to whoever thinks we played "OK" or "determined against a better team," give your head a shake. We were a man up for 40 minutes. We should've buried them. Instead, here we are.

I talked to my rep this week who called me for the first time this season to introduce himself. Aside from his amusing timing, we talked about the season so far. I said I'm 100 pct done and will not renew, and neither will my two friends sitting next to me. He helpfully told me that relocation is usually in November. The more things get worse, the more they stay the same.

[AmherstNY_TFC]

A frustrating loss that was typical of TFC this season: do a lot of good things over the course of 90 minutes, make a mistake, and get punished for it.

Take nothing away from Seattle. They are a well-organized team. When they went a man down, they played perfectly (defend in numbers, make it impossible for the opponent to break you down, and go forward with the intent of converting a set piece). If Martina converts, then Seattle has to come out of their shell, and perhaps TFC holds on for the win. This is a young team. They are going to do this. We hope they learn from their mistakes and build off of them.

There are no short-term solutions. The fact that the transfer window might open is of no consequence. If a guy is a "street" free agent in June, there is a good reason for that. A Designated Player signing isn't the final piece of the puzzle. TFC already traded their one player of value (DeRo). Getting some out of contract Euro washout is the last thing TFC needs. Firing the coach won't do any good either. Who is the logical replacement? Is there a successful MLS coach out there who isn't already employed?

It sucks. It's frustrating. But these are the growing pains of an expansion team. Make no mistake, TFC is the third expansion team. Anyone who thought they were playoff contenders this year was fooling themselves.

On the bright side, I think rock bottom was last year. So, nowhere to go but up!

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

Okay, the team's not great. But in all honesty, I'll keep renewing unless they jack the prices again. I'm looking to move seats, I had a really earlier date last time around but didn't end up going.

It's funny, I remember when things were going great, in terms off the field, saying to my friend to wait and see what it's like five years on. I'd prefer the team play better and win games, but I'm not sure I've done anything to deserve it. Despite what people say, the team doesn't suck on purpose.

[bgnewf]

So I get a call Wednesday morning from TFC asking me on really short notice if I could write a piece for the game day programme. They were short some content and on short notice I said no problemo.

I go fine...I ask for no money or anything like that, I do what I do, whether it is liked or not as a labour of love.. all I want at the end of the day is to try and share my passion with other fans.

With about a hour's deadline I write an article that describes my experience at the TFC Academy game on May 28th. All I ask from TFC is to if they could, to put my blog address and my Twitter address on the article so I could perhaps open up what I do to other fans that might not be aware of what am a doing.

So I go to the game tonight and I spend the $5 to buy a programme and as I head to 113 I take a look at the article. Not only is my web address and my Twitter address not listed on the piece they even spell my last name wrong.

Not a big deal in the greater scheme of things I suppose but I have to say that personally this little episode and the way TFC lost this game really personally spoke to me about where this club is.

And one other thing that happened last night really spoke to me about where this club finds itself... Even after the 6-2 Philly game the players and coach came to 113 and clapped us and out efforts. Last night... nothing... As soon as the game was over they were gone faster than we were.


I am a pretty disillusioned TFC fan tonight.

[Serb_Star]

Soolsma has the worst touch ever. I don't really get the hype over Cordon, he shown nothing except a nice dribble here and there.

[Couchy81]

I saw one thing tonight; a lot of play makers and not enough finishers. Good effort all around. Can't wait for that transfer window and some magic from Mariner. Henry is raw skill, boys got a bright future.

[lobo]

The team didn't even head up to the corner at the end. How anyone can say anything positive now is beyond me. Shit show.


I was offended that none of the players had the fuckin bollocks to applaud the south stand tonight.
Disgraceful


Even after the 6-2 Philly game the players and coach came to 113 and clapped us and out efforts. Last night... nothing... As soon as the game was over they were gone faster than we were.
I am a pretty disillusioned TFC fan tonight.

this, this, and this

and plata has to stop grabbing the ball for set pieces, he rushes it and fucks it up everytime ... we lost so many battles, gave away so many balls, and failed to support the attack from the midfield so many times ... and montero really swung that ball nicely around the wall, but i gotta question frei's placement of the wall, could've used one more body on the short side

good tailgate pregame and great support in the south east corner ... surprised the team just walked off without even a nod to the supporters

[profit89]

surprised the team just walked off without even a nod to the supporters

Not a cheery mood. They are pissed off more than we are at this point.

[69Chevy396]

In 2007 and 2008 I never expected much from this team, and it was fun to go to the games, bmo was the place to be in Toronto if you were a fan of soccer. Lots of hope and promise. However, a lingering issue was always the ownership by this team by the worst performing sports entertainment private corporation in north america. Now, years later, with a club sporting the worst win loss record in its five year history at the mid season mark, having traded away their only exciting player, having yet another rookie manager at the helm.....that worry about mlse continues: they subscribe to the money generating theory that losing with the hope of winning brings more fans to the stadium than a team that wins trophies and the high expectations that come with that. No wonder so many pro teams lose fan interest and money in the years following championship runs. This is not new. MLSE with the leafs, the raptors and tfc cannot win a fucking game, but they know how to scrape a coin off the sidewalk.....negative post, or realistic post? We should write a new chant: This is your house, enjoy your stay, you come to play, we come to pay

[cochrdoc]

Why is it that when we get a free kick that the team seems to fight over who takes it.Both plata and steph. strike a ball about as hard as a under 10 player.If either one could strike the ball they would both have a few more goals.I am sure glad Garcon was put on to tie the game up in the last couple minutes.Why don`t they put him on the bus and send him to Edmonton.Frei goes and chews out the official because he doesn`t think it was a foul that resulted in a goal when he should of chewed out a few of his teammates for diving.I am getting tiried of listening to that annoucer that keeps talking about he needs somm treatment.

[Alixir]

yourassowsky needs to STOP divingits not his diving that pisses me off...its his knack of complaining to the officials until he gets carded when a call doesn't go his way that chaps me arse!

[Yohan]

I disagree. Yourassowsky, Soolsma, and Stevanovic all love to run into the box (and subsequently fall over and try to draw a foul). I'd rather see more deadly through passes into the box instead.

Ok. More like, timing of their runs suck.


Also, Henry is a solid defender, young, etc. etc., but he needs to learn to pass.
Henry was also at fault for the foul that gave Seattle the Montero free kick.

And just noticed that it was Hurtado, their best defender that got sent off. And TFC can't break down a bunch of USL/MLS utility defenders (well, except Parke)

[Alixir]

And just noticed that it was Hurtado, their best defender that got sent off. And TFC can't break down a bunch of USL/MLS utility defenders (well, except Parke)the fact that TFC could only muster 1 chance when Seattle lost thier number 1 defender for almost an entire half is inexcusable!

[Roogsy]

That's brutal Tim. Shameful really. I wish people would realize how one-sided all the loyalty shown to the team really is. It is most certainly not reciprocated and I have to admit, its a big reason why I am so disallusioned.

[brad]

That's brutal Tim. Shameful really. I wish people would realize how one-sided all the loyalty shown to the team really is. It is most certainly not reciprocated and I have to admit, its a big reason why I am so disallusioned.

Very true. Suspect they looked after looking at true blog they decided not to publish the address as it is not a piece of pro-TFC propaganda.

[Yohan]

That's brutal Tim. Shameful really. I wish people would realize how one-sided all the loyalty shown to the team really is. It is most certainly not reciprocated and I have to admit, its a big reason why I am so disallusioned.
+1..

[Beach_Red]

Very true. Suspect they looked after looking at true blog they decided not to publish the address as it is not a piece of pro-TFC propaganda.

But they said they would. They called him and asked him to do some work for the company and he gave his terms - very reasonable terms - and they agreed.

And then they ignored their agreement. Which they can do, of course, because it wasn't in writing.

The way this team has been handled will be studied in marketing and management classes for years to come - everything not to do in one package.

[Yohan]

But they said they would. They called him and asked him to do some work for the company and he gave his terms - very reasonable terms - and they agreed.

And then they ignored their agreement. Which they can do, of course, because it wasn't in writing.

The way this team has been handled will be studied in marketing and management classes for years to come - everything not to do in one package.
FO probably thinks they are doing Tim a favour by 'allowing' to write a piece for the matchday program (5 bucks for the program? WTF)

[prizby]

Sorry for the double post. I'm not convinced he is diving, or at least diving all or most of the time. He certainly mixes it up physically, seems to let his temper get the better of him though. To bad he doesn't have much of a shot, there where times he had a lot of space in front of goal.

i rewatched the game... the time the ball went out for a throw-in and he was on the pitch rolling around...blatant dive, he wasn't even touched


^ I think we're in agree to disagree territory here. I think if you go back and look at this game, you'll find that most of the times he was rolling on the ground where genuine.

even if he dives just one time...its one time too many, and its disgusting, there is no need for it in this game

[brad]

But they said they would. They called him and asked him to do some work for the company and he gave his terms - very reasonable terms - and they agreed.

And then they ignored their agreement. Which they can do, of course, because it wasn't in writing.

The way this team has been handled will be studied in marketing and management classes for years to come - everything not to do in one package.

Oh, I agree with all of this, just staring what I think happened.

They should have checked it out in advance to ensure it was okay. If not, they should have contacted him after and said "We can't publish your blog because.... Can we still publish the article.""

Of course, MLSE will use the classic, oh, it was an oversight/mistake excuse.

[David Steele]

The back four played extremely well today. Our goalkeeper is top notch. Our problem is we need a creative attacking midfield player and a striker or two.

ITS BETTER FOOTBALL THAN THE LAST FOUR YEARS. So lets be patient and see who they can sign this coming summer.

Be positive . it does not look good for the playoffs right now but with a good signing or two it will make a difference.

[Cashcleaner]

That's brutal Tim. Shameful really. I wish people would realize how one-sided all the loyalty shown to the team really is. It is most certainly not reciprocated and I have to admit, its a big reason why I am so disallusioned.

No kidding, eh? I don't even want to comment on the game itself becaus any criticism would just be repeating what so many others have said. However, I really think TFC owes Tim an apology. Talk about gratitude. He went out of his way for them. The least they can do is agree to his terms.

[brad]

No kidding, eh? I don't even want to comment on the game itself becaus any criticism would just be repeating what so many others have said. However, I really think TFC owes Tim an apology. Talk about gratitude. He went out of his way for them. The least they can do is agree to his terms.

I'd say yet owe him more than that. They should keep their end of the bargin and publish his blog in a prominent place. I doubt they will though.

[Kaz]

The issue is clear isn't it? Winter built the team with DeRo at AM, DeGuz at DM with either Santos or Gordon up front. and two wingers..

the issue we've had is that Santos isn't a AM, and Winter was counting on 12 good goals from DeRo. The issues with DeRo meant he was shipped out, leaving the team without the key piece of scoring and play making flare that it was built around...

Without a proper AM pick up here come the transfer window, we are fucked... If Winter who sadly has shown a lack of adaptability so far needs to end the season strong.

DeGuz shouldn't have his contract extended an another player in the 180-220 range should be brought in that can do the same job, and a skilled full DP AM should be brought in...

But we all know this already... I just track the games at this point... I even offer to work on game day so that I'm not tempted to go out to BMO and be disappointed. I'm sorry I go to a Football game to be entertained, and its not entertaining when you expect to tie or lose, and you don't care about the other team.

[Borga]

With Yourassowsky, if he gets touched and goes down without flopping around, you know he's getting back up to take someone out. I think it was Montero who took him out in the 2nd half, and he immediately got back up and ran right after him and wiped him out, and got a yellow card for it.

That kind of play is just stupid. You spend the entire game flopping around on the ground like you're a trout that's been pulled from a lake, in between bitching at the officials, and then expect that you can blatantly hammer someone without getting called for it? It's just foolish and selfish play.

[deeznutz]

Second half up one man tied 0-0 and we are cheering for a 0-0 game for one fucking point? WOW

Second half up one man and can't score?

It has been 5 years of piss poor results how much more "TIME" do you people (you know who you are) need to admit this team is fucking hurting?

This is like getting hoosed at the gas pumps and know one is speaking up!
But god fucking forbid ANYONE who is a supporter speak up about the problem without having some people (You know who you are) saying that we are not true supporters!!!



TFC=USA both problems can relate to the "T"


Happy Fathers Day to all the dads!!!

[Phil]

******Please note******

Insults and calling users out by name is considered trolling. You will be infracted accordingly if this type of posting continues.

Please don't call people out by their board names as all it accomplishes is an argument and drama.

[deeznutz]

******Please note******

Insults and calling users out by name is considered trolling. You will be infracted accordingly if this type of posting continues.

Please don't call people out by their board names as all it accomplishes is an argument and drama.


Hmmm Blazer must have PMED you.


;)

[J .]

The back four played extremely well today. Our goalkeeper is top notch. Our problem is we need a creative attacking midfield player and a striker or two.

ITS BETTER FOOTBALL THAN THE LAST FOUR YEARS. So lets be patient and see who they can sign this coming summer.

Be positive . it does not look good for the playoffs right now but with a good signing or two it will make a difference.

Its not better at all. Do you watch the games? This looks like Carver ball 2.0 and in fact its worse, this is the worst team in MLS and on pace to be the worst franchise in MLS history.

[Pookie]

I talked to my rep this week who called me for the first time this season to introduce himself. Aside from his amusing timing, we talked about the season so far. I said I'm 100 pct done and will not renew...

So are you done with the team or simply going to BMO?

I have to wonder how many will turn it off completely.

I've written and spoke to folks at TFC FO about my concerns about MLSE's running of the team. Yet, despite all of the drama we all know and love and a 2-6-9 record, the stadium was relatively full. I've called out the FO before for attendance numbers but 21k and change seemed about right last night.

Should be an interesting off-season for the ticket reps.

[123 elite]

So are you done with the team or simply going to BMO?

I have to wonder how many will turn it off completely.

I've written and spoke to folks at TFC FO about my concerns about MLSE's running of the team. Yet, despite all of the drama we all know and love and a 2-6-9 record, the stadium was relatively full. I've called out the FO before for attendance numbers but 21k and change seemed about right last night.

Should be an interesting off-season for the ticket reps.

I think that had a lot to do with it being a nice night. i see next year with a drop to about 8-10k seasons and the 'give uppers' just turning up for the odd game on the nice nights. I can see rainy nights in April being around 8k next year. Why buy a season when you can get walk ups most days now. I know i am at breaking point and i've missed only about a dozen games in 5 years. I'm sure many others are thinking the same.

[Pookie]

^ The scoop is that they have sold roughly 19k for each remaining home game. Concern is that of the 19k, folks in the thousands have paid for a ticket but not shown up.

You are 100% right about walk up tickets. Hell, even free tickets are available.

I spoke to my Rep about concerns I had and for me, performance on the pitch aside, it comes down to a basic question of value. What's the benefit for me to own a season ticket?

If other markets get free "bonus games" including playoffs, or can exchange unused tickets for additional tickets for future matches, or get deep discounts for friends and family, or concession food and drink (alcohol excluded unfortunately) or parking passes (though the City of Toronto comes into play here), or simply pay a hell of lot less than I do...

... what is value proposition MLSE will put in front of me during the renewal decision time frame? The Rep tried to talk about their system and investment and all of that is nice. Set it aside and give me a reason, outside of the team because I already care about the team, give me a reason to feel that owning a TFC season ticket is a good decision.

[Dv23]

At least I got a picture of me standing next to Bitchy after the game. She's scary.

[cmonyoureds]

Its not better at all. Do you watch the games? This looks like Carver ball 2.0 and in fact its worse, this is the worst team in MLS and on pace to be the worst franchise in MLS history.

remember when carver made them come applaude us in columbus? at least that was something for the fans.

is it wrong that seems like the "good old days?"

quecequevouzchantez?
we play football the wrong way

nah nah nah nah
nnnnn nah nah nah nah:drinking:

[Pookie]

quecequevouzchantez?
we play football the wrong way

nah nah nah nah
nnnnn nah nah nah nah:drinking:

Nice :)

Lots to work with there:

quecequevouzchantez?
The Golden Goose has laid an egg

quecequevouzchantez?
Toronto F - C O - K

[Heathen]

So are you done with the team or simply going to BMO?

I have to wonder how many will turn it off completely.

I've written and spoke to folks at TFC FO about my concerns about MLSE's running of the team. Yet, despite all of the drama we all know and love and a 2-6-9 record, the stadium was relatively full. I've called out the FO before for attendance numbers but 21k and change seemed about right last night.

Should be an interesting off-season for the ticket reps.

I don't know, I watched the replay on Gol this morning and the East stand looked very empty, barely half full

[Cashcleaner]

So are you done with the team or simply going to BMO?

I have to wonder how many will turn it off completely.

I've written and spoke to folks at TFC FO about my concerns about MLSE's running of the team. Yet, despite all of the drama we all know and love and a 2-6-9 record, the stadium was relatively full. I've called out the FO before for attendance numbers but 21k and change seemed about right last night.

Should be an interesting off-season for the ticket reps.

People can say what they want, but a bad attendance for BMO Field still beats out what other clubs in the league wish they could get.

http://mls.theoffside.com/attendance/and-the-results-of-mlss-2010-attendance-stats-are.html

But you're right in that our numbers can continue to drop unless things can be turned around on the pitch. It's hard to say what's really going on in the heads of MLSE's brass, though. We know that the ownership is committed to the club on account of the upgrades at BMO Field and the construction of the training facility. They are spending the money and that's apparent, the only question is why isn't the first team getting a similar level of commitment?

[J .]

remember when carver made them come applaude us in columbus? at least that was something for the fans.

is it wrong that seems like the "good old days?"

quecequevouzchantez?
we play football the wrong way

nah nah nah nah
nnnnn nah nah nah nah:drinking:


Indeed, sad when two horrible coaches in Carver and Preki are considered the gold standard. I still think Preki needed another year to beat guys into shape defensively then bring in an attacking coach.

Either way, Im sick of this being a coaches reject proving ground and I see very, very little progress and many, many steps backwards in terms of style, play, confidence, talent and so forth.

We should have been Seattle, new, competitive and rocking stadium, instead of rebuilding, embarassing and dwindling support.

[bman27]

Does anyone else feel that the Team made the wrong choice of Santos as captain. Watching him last night the only way i can describe him is lazy. He doesn't even try to make runs, he seems like he has one speed and that is jogging. I don't know how many times there were decent balls into the box that were easily cleared simply because there was no pressure up front. It's great that he has a dangerous weak foot that will come out of nowhere sometimes, but he waits for his chances, he doesn't create them. I don't know if I'm being to hard on him, but when your up a man for close to 40 minutes, and its the 80th minute and you team is flat out there, I want to see my captain either firing up the team vocally (Im not that sure if his english still isn't that great) or with his play and that just hasn't been happening

[Yohan]

Ive said santos is not the choice for captain...

[habstfc]

I don't know, I watched the replay on Gol this morning and the East stand looked very empty, barely half full

No man it was pretty full, even most of the north stand was full. It's the fullest game next to the beckham/galaxy game.

[kaos197O]

Does anyone else feel that the Team made the wrong choice of Santos as captain. Watching him last night the only way i can describe him is lazy. He doesn't even try to make runs, he seems like he has one speed and that is jogging. I don't know how many times there were decent balls into the box that were easily cleared simply because there was no pressure up front. It's great that he has a dangerous weak foot that will come out of nowhere sometimes, but he waits for his chances, he doesn't create them. I don't know if I'm being to hard on him, but when your up a man for close to 40 minutes, and its the 80th minute and you team is flat out there, I want to see my captain either firing up the team vocally (Im not that sure if his english still isn't that great) or with his play and that just hasn't been happening
He is no Captain, that is for certain.

As for your Lazy comment, I think a player can be lazy as long as they are positionally strong and tactically aware. Again, this is something I feel he is not.

[Heathen]

No man it was pretty full, even most of the north stand was full. It's the fullest game next to the beckham/galaxy game.

It was watching half asleep at 3 in the morning, I'll take your word for it

[Whoop]

Yeah, the North Stand was the fullest it's been since the Galaxy match.

[Auzzy]

So I go to the game tonight and I spend the $5 to buy a programme and as I head to 113 I take a look at the article. Not only is my web address and my Twitter address not listed on the piece they even spell my last name wrong.


LOL I was wondering who that was, describing what happened while waiting for the 63 Ossington bus... so now I know. So sorry to hear about this, very frustrating. It would be very interesting to hear if there's any follow-up from TFC about this. Perhaps a paid article in the next programme, plus the web & Twitter address as requested?

Then I would even buy the programme. I was purchasing them last year, but just can't be arsed anymore.

[CretanBull]

So I get a call Wednesday morning from TFC asking me on really short notice if I could write a piece for the game day programme. They were short some content and on short notice I said no problemo.

I go fine...I ask for no money or anything like that, I do what I do, whether it is liked or not as a labour of love.. all I want at the end of the day is to try and share my passion with other fans.

With about a hour's deadline I write an article that describes my experience at the TFC Academy game on May 28th. All I ask from TFC is to if they could, to put my blog address and my Twitter address on the article so I could perhaps open up what I do to other fans that might not be aware of what am a doing.

So I go to the game tonight and I spend the $5 to buy a programme and as I head to 113 I take a look at the article. Not only is my web address and my Twitter address not listed on the piece they even spell my last name wrong.

Not a big deal in the greater scheme of things I suppose but I have to say that personally this little episode and the way TFC lost this game really personally spoke to me about where this club is.

And one other thing that happened last night really spoke to me about where this club finds itself... Even after the 6-2 Philly game the players and coach came to 113 and clapped us and out efforts. Last night... nothing... As soon as the game was over they were gone faster than we were.


I am a pretty disillusioned TFC fan tonight.


It's shamefull, but sadly not surprising. This is just yet another example of TFC viewing its fans as something to exploit and take advantage of. They were desparate, they needed you, you were there for them and once they had what they needed from you...another broken promise from them. Don't worry, I'm sure they'll give you a "loyalty discount" of 10 cents off the next programme that you buy.

[CretanBull]

It would be very interesting to hear if there's any follow-up from TFC about this. Perhaps a paid article in the next programme, plus the web & Twitter address as requested?

Hopefully we can shame them into doing the right thing....

[bgnewf]

TFC Hits A New Low At Home

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/06/tfc-hits-a-new-low-at-home/

My angry post game video rant after what is for me a new low for Toronto FC

[Walms]

Stick with it Reds/Winter, Worst thing we could do is start looking for quick fix players right now. I still have complet faith in our new Coachs/players.

On the + Cordon look vary promising

[David Steele]

Its not better at all. Do you watch the games? This looks like Carver ball 2.0 and in fact its worse, this is the worst team in MLS and on pace to be the worst franchise in MLS history.

Having played soccer for many years and coached at a level that gave Canadian players a chance to obtain soccer scholarships. I understand your frustration and thank you for your comment. As Winston Churchill said, I respect your opinion and disagree with you 100 percent. T.F.C. have made numerous mistakes in the last five years but I feel they are on the right path to field a fairly good soccer team that will be able to compete in the league.
Being a fan of Man United from the days of Edwards, Law, Charlton, Best, Dunn, Neville , Ashton and the list goes on and on we at Man United have had very bad years its a matter of supporting your team in good times and Bad.
T.F.C are on the right track two or three new players will make a big difference. Be patient or don't bother going to the games. Stay positive.
Im waiting to to see those improvements as well. As a senior citizen my dollars are hard earned and if T.F.C. don't make it this time soccer will be gone for a long time in Toronto.
Profit is not a bad word otherwise one is out of business.

[Carts]

I have to wonder how many will turn it off completely.


I'm not getting rid of my seats, and I'm not stopping attending games - but it is getting tough...

Mid-week games are harder and harder to get pumped for when you have doom'n'gloom in your head...

There's times when you think "why bother?" when it comes from rushing out of the office etc etc etc...

I suck it up and go - to support the lads...

I can see alot of people pulling the chute and not renewing, or 'downsizing' like many did this past off-season...

Carts...

[Roogsy]

Having played soccer for many years and coached at a level that gave Canadian players a chance to obtain soccer scholarships. I understand your frustration and thank you for your comment. As Winston Churchill said, I respect your opinion and disagree with you 100 percent. T.F.C. have made numerous mistakes in the last five years but I feel they are on the right path to field a fairly good soccer team that will be able to compete in the league.
Being a fan of Man United from the days of Edwards, Law, Charlton, Best, Dunn, Neville , Ashton and the list goes on and on we at Man United have had very bad years its a matter of supporting your team in good times and Bad.
T.F.C are on the right track two or three new players will make a big difference. Be patient or don't bother going to the games. Stay positive.
Im waiting to to see those improvements as well. As a senior citizen my dollars are hard earned and if T.F.C. don't make it this time soccer will be gone for a long time in Toronto.
Profit is not a bad word otherwise one is out of business.

I highly doubt Manchester United ever suffered a spell of being the worst team in the FA, let alone having that dubious honour for an extended period of time like Toronto has.

Staying positive is only possible when there is something to rest hopes on. Right now, I personally don't see it. I don't see the players necessary to compete. I don't see management with the level of ability necessary to address that convincingly and don't get me started on whether the ownership of this team knows what it's doing.

At some point I'd like to see what this "right track" that we are supposedly in actually is. To date, nobody has been able to verbalize what fruitage exactly this new direction is going to produce.

Sometimes supporting your team is more than just blind faith. Sometimes it's putting pressure on ownership and management to take their blinders off the balance sheet for a second and rememeber that without the fans and supporters, they're nothing.

[Carts]

I don't know, I watched the replay on Gol this morning and the East stand looked very empty, barely half full

In my row there is 13-seats (before the entrance cut out cuts it off) and there was 8 empty seats of the 13...

The four seats beside mine to the left, they barely show up anymore...

The four seats to my right are corporate, and they're used 50/50 at best...

Most of those empty seats are sold - and go unused...

For a sports team (from a "sports side" not business), thats worse than them not being sold... It says that people, even though they have paid don't even bother coming...

Its not good... Carts...

[69Chevy396]

In 1993 after selling out the skydome most games for 4 years nobody in their right mind would believe that the huge number of season ticket holders would one day vanish. It happened to a two time world series champion-tfc has won nothing in its 5 years. Only a love of soccer keeps people interested, and that is fading as quickly as the Dichio chant at 24.

[Pachuco]

Good first half. Brutal second half against 10 men. Tactical errors on the coaches part were obvious to see in this one. Getting extremely frustrating to watch a rookie coach make this many mistakes.

[Carts]

In 1993 after selling out the skydome most games for 4 years nobody in their right mind would believe that the huge number of season ticket holders would one day vanish. It happened to a two time world series champion-tfc has won nothing in its 5 years. Only a love of soccer keeps people interested, and that is fading as quickly as the Dichio chant at 24.

Hell, its happening to the Leafs...

For the first time in my memory, I noticed last season, they were running ads on the screen for private box rentals...

I was at a Leafs/Hawks a couple of seasons ago (pretty sure it was the Hawks in town) and I counted 3 boxes dark - on a Saturday night... Unsold and sitting empty...

I know its not the fall the Jays have seen in ticket sales, but its a sign that the price-to-losing ratio is having an affect (however small)...

[TFC/Everton]

winter out

:facepalm: Do you know anything about football?

[Oblio2]

uh oh....

[Heathen]

Having played soccer for many years and coached at a level that gave Canadian players a chance to obtain soccer scholarships. I understand your frustration and thank you for your comment. As Winston Churchill said, I respect your opinion and disagree with you 100 percent. T.F.C. have made numerous mistakes in the last five years but I feel they are on the right path to field a fairly good soccer team that will be able to compete in the league.
Being a fan of Man United from the days of Edwards, Law, Charlton, Best, Dunn, Neville , Ashton and the list goes on and on we at Man United have had very bad years its a matter of supporting your team in good times and Bad.
T.F.C are on the right track two or three new players will make a big difference. Be patient or don't bother going to the games. Stay positive.
Im waiting to to see those improvements as well. As a senior citizen my dollars are hard earned and if T.F.C. don't make it this time soccer will be gone for a long time in Toronto.
Profit is not a bad word otherwise one is out of business.

You do realize that Man Utds worst years are better than 80% of other teams best years.

[menefreghista]

:facepalm: Do you know anything about football?

Apparently only Dutch people do....

[brad]

You do realize that Man Utds worst years are better than 80% of other teams best years.

Except when they were relegated, and a goal from United legend Dennis Law, playing for Manchester City sent them down.

Other than that, they were an upper table team for most of the years between Busby and Fergie.

[Heathen]

Except when they were relegated, and a goal from United legend Dennis Law, playing for Manchester City sent them down.

Other than that, they were an upper table team for most of the years between Busby and Fergie.

They've been relegated once in 75 years, my teams been relegated 8 times in my living memory

[Roogsy]

I am not Man United historian, but the thought of a United fan claiming long-suffering is something of a shock to me.

[Heathen]

I am not Man United historian, but the thought of a United fan claiming long-suffering is something of a shock to me.

3 European Cups and 19 League Titles, I wouldn't mind suffering like that

[brad]

I am not Man United historian, but the thought of a United fan claiming long-suffering is something of a shock to me.

It's all relative I guess, but I certainly would agree with you that it's far from long suffering (but the relegation by Law is a low that not a lot of teams can top as a one off).

Anyway, I've never liked comparing TFC to any top clubs (and Winter certainly isn't Fergie), so enough on this and back on topic....

[CSO_BBTB]

Except when they were relegated, and a goal from United legend Dennis Law, playing for Manchester City sent them down.

Actually a bit of an urban legend for what it's worth because they would have gone down anyway based on what happened in other games. Not sure what it has to do with TFC though? :) Even in the 1970s when Man United were not at their best they still managed to win an FA Cup under Tommy Docherty and had some really good players like Lou Macari and Steve Coppell. A team like Aston Villa might be a better analogy in a support through thick and thin sort of way, because it is not realistic to expect an MLS team to ever be as dominant as Man United are in England (beginning to approach Rangers and Celtic in the SPL levels of monotony) because the league is deliberately structured to promote competitive parity.

[nfitz]

For the first time in my memory, I noticed last season, they were running ads on the screen for private box rentals... Though I'd think that the way society is changing, that the private boxes for leaf games wouldn't be in as much demand as in days of old.

Used to be that lots of companies would use these to get tickets for their clients. Now a days, if you give anything of substantive value to your clients, everyone is concerned about corruption and kick-backs.

[ExiledRed]

Having played soccer for many years and coached at a level that gave Canadian players a chance to obtain soccer scholarships. I understand your frustration and thank you for your comment. As Winston Churchill said, I respect your opinion and disagree with you 100 percent. T.F.C. have made numerous mistakes in the last five years but I feel they are on the right path to field a fairly good soccer team that will be able to compete in the league.
Being a fan of Man United from the days of Edwards, Law, Charlton, Best, Dunn, Neville , Ashton and the list goes on and on we at Man United have had very bad years its a matter of supporting your team in good times and Bad.
T.F.C are on the right track two or three new players will make a big difference. Be patient or don't bother going to the games. Stay positive.
Im waiting to to see those improvements as well. As a senior citizen my dollars are hard earned and if T.F.C. don't make it this time soccer will be gone for a long time in Toronto.
Profit is not a bad word otherwise one is out of business.

This post is so preachy.

Its like, wow, thanks for your enlightment, and deigning to educate us lowly inexperienced football supporters, who have been starving for guidance from a veteran such as yourself.

Trust me buddy, your eyesight is failing, the football is not 'better than the last four years' and this team is not on the right path to be 'fairly good'

As a Liverpool fan from the days of Rush, Dalglish, Souness, Grobelaar and Hansen, we at Liverpool have had some comparatively bad years too, and to be honest I have no idea what that has to do with Toronto's situation.

Anyone who's been watching football for as long as you say you have should be able to recognise a toothless, unhappy team wih poor leadership. Three more players could just as easily stink up the locker room and collapse this house of cards as 'make it all fit together'

United coaches would laugh at Winter's ineptitude, give it a rest.

[spark]

A team like Aston Villa might be a better analogy in a support through thick and thin sort of way, because it is not realistic to expect an MLS team to ever be as dominant as Man United are in England (beginning to approach Rangers and Celtic in the SPL levels of monotony) because the league is deliberately structured to promote competitive parity.

Ha that's funny a guy I was at the game with said after, "If I can get through Villa in the third division, I can get through this."

[ExiledRed]

Actually a bit of an urban legend for what it's worth because they would have gone down anyway based on what happened in other games. Not sure what it has to do with TFC though? :) Even in the 1970s when Man United were not at their best they still managed to win an FA Cup under Tommy Docherty and had some really good players like Lou Macari and Steve Coppell. A team like Aston Villa might be a better analogy in a support through thick and thin sort of way, because it is not realistic to expect an MLS team to ever be as dominant as Man United are in England (beginning to approach Rangers and Celtic in the SPL levels of monotony) because the league is deliberately structured to promote competitive parity.

The question about support through thick and thin right now is whether thats actually counterproductive or not.

Is tough love more effective right now?

I dunno, just putting it out there.

[CretanBull]

I am not Man United historian, but the thought of a United fan claiming long-suffering is something of a shock to me.

Long suffering? Not likely, but I'm sure 1974 hurt like hell - they were relegated while Leeds won the league title. What a fantastic year :D

[CSO_BBTB]

The question about support through thick and thin right now is whether thats actually counterproductive or not.

Is tough love more effective right now?

I dunno, just putting it out there.

Back in 2007 TFC fans made fun of the Crew's lack of fan support. It will be interesting to see how full BMO Field is by the end of this decade if there is no MLS Cup win by that point. Supporting clubs like Manchester United and Liverpool is easy. It's the guys who hang in there year after year with clubs like Tranmere Rovers and Stockport County who know what support really means, in my opinion, but a comment you once made that I wanted supporting TFC to be like supporting NK Zagreb to bring it into line with following Hamilton Accies was probably quite insightful. Think there needs to be some balance and realism. TFC fans should go into tough love mode at more of a Newcastle United sort of breaking point than a Manchester United one. Don't think we're even close to being there yet and I honestly see signs of life where Aron Winter is concerned. A couple of good signings during the transfer window could make a big difference even to how the rest of this season unfolds.

[Roogsy]

The Crew's lack of support is apparent even the year following an MLS Cup win. 5 years of ineptitude with no end in sight isn't fans abandoning ship, it's fans standing up to a corporation bent on taking advantage of them. It's completely different.

I am also tired of hearing about how a "couple of good signings" is going to correct the ship. Guess what, half this club is Mariner and Winter's and they havent' done squat, so what exactly makes you believe that the transfer window is going to bring treasures beyond our imaginations? Like ER said, they could easily bring in bad players or players that don't fit as they could good, and then what?

[Whoop]

I get that but in reality what is there left to do?

Another protest? Invade the pitch? Boo/whistle through the whole game? Stay silent? Or just stop going to matches?

How do you put pressure on the FO? A letter writing campaign? Shame them with banners?

I mean if there is something that we can do to improve the team... I'll sign up.

[Nestease]

Back in 2007 TFC fans made fun of the Crew's lack of fan support. It will be interesting to see how full BMO Field is by the end of this decade if there is no MLS Cup win by that point.

A team with some of the lowest ticket prices bundled with free hotdogs, soft drinks, and $1 beer. Throw in an MLS Cup and they can fill what, half a stadium?

This is an absurd comparison.

[CSO_BBTB]

Have you been following MLS long enough to remember that the Crew only got into the league in the first place because of an unprecedented level of advance season ticket pledges relative to every other city and that they actually were well supported in the early years after the SSS was first built?

[Roogsy]

Have you been following MLS long enough to remember that the Crew only got into the league in the first place because of an unprecedented level of advance season ticket pledges relative to every other city and that they actually were well supported in the early years after the SSS was first built?

I only started following MLS in 2005 when word was circulating about a possible team in Toronto. But all you have to do is look up Wikipedia and find out their attendance figures. Their average attendance has never been stadium capacity. The only times they have ever reached stadium capacity was when they were in the playoffs of their inaugural year and in 2001. Otherwise, they ahve always been substantially lower than capacity (which is listed at 20,455). In fact, most years they weren't even close, including their sophomore year where their attendance was actually LOWER than in their regular season. That would be unheard of in Toronto.

Unprecedented? You're probably right. In an era before TFC. But when TFC entered the league, we blew Columbus right out of the water. And as a percentage of capacity, we continue to be tops in the league. But that is beginning to suffer. Still, it took a helluvalot longer than it took the Crew to drop from 19,000 to 15,000 (the answer: the 2nd year).

And let's remember Crew stadium actually TOOK OUT seats to add that awful "stage", meaning their stadium, capacity was quite possibly much higher before the renos. In other words, I am not sure they have ever sold out their stadium, or if they did it was probably for one-off games like Beckham coming to town.

[CSO_BBTB]

The GTA has a much larger population than the corresponding area around Columbus so on a per capita basis and given the more soccer friendly demographics it's debatable whether there was any blowing out of the water involved especially given the way the Beckham signing in LA helped boost season ticket sales in a Toronto context. There is way too much self-congratulation amongst TFC supporters, in my opinion.

In the early years of MLS, certain teams like the Revs and Metrostars that are now renowned for lukewarm levels of support were able to draw 20,000 crowds as well reasonably regularly. People slowly drifted away because MLS wasn't a high enough standard to captivate them to the extent a team like the Cosmos did in the NASL and there was no SSS to provide the sort of game day experience you get at BMO Field. TFC fans will show they are in a different class to what happened elsewhere if the 20k crowds can be maintained once the reality of what it means to follow a mediocre at best MLS team has fully sunk in. The signs are not good on that right now.

Beyond that I could see people being up in arms to the extent some fans appear to be if there had been no DP signings rather than misguided ones, there was still fieldturf despite a willingness by the City to allow it to be replaced and there had been only token investment in the youth academy with no new training facilities in the works at Downsview. MLSE got a bit too greedy on ticket pricing last fall and with the new north stand no question but they have been making an effort to invest in the future of the franchise and haven't just been treating it as a cash cow.

[Whoop]

Instead of comparing TFC to other MLS markets, the most apt comparison is to another team in this market, the Toronto Rock.

When the Toronto Rock franchise moved to Toronto they were able to capitalize on a big lacrosse market in the GTA. The team was able to sell out Maple Leaf Gardens and the ACC on a regular basis in their first seven years. It also helped that the Rock were one of the best teams in the NLL and routinely won championships - included 5 championships in 7 years.

Then a coaching/management change was made, which disillusioned a lot of the fans that the team had. This allowed the issues that the fans had with ownership to bubble up. This also coincided with the team starting to lose. And the sold out crowds were gone.

The team then brought back the old coach, there was new ownership and the team started to win again. But those sold out crowds were gone.

So in essence, TFC FO screwed what was once a good thing. And I think it's going to get worse before it gets before.

And one day when/if the team starts doing well, the crowds might return, but a) it probably won't be sold out - can't get a ticket around town kind of crowds and b) it won't be the same.

So yeah, they fucked up.

[123 elite]

I am also tired of hearing about how a "couple of good signings" is going to correct the ship. Guess what, half this club is Mariner and Winter's and they havent' done squat, so what exactly makes you believe that the transfer window is going to bring treasures beyond our imaginations? Like ER said, they could easily bring in bad players or players that don't fit as they could good, and then what?

^ this.

Henry, Stefanovic, Sturgis, Plata, Martina, Cordon, Yourass, Eckersley, Borman & Soolsma all featured on Saturday. This years imports or promotions. WInter's season not last season.

[CSO_BBTB]

Henry moved to the senior roster under Preki, while Sturgis was traded for by Earl Cochrane and most people think Eckersley and Plata are actually quite good. The only one of the rest on more than 100k (and, therefore, on the type of money a starter in MLS would normally command) was Stevanovic who appears to have only been a short term loan to fill in for a bit for DeRosario until a more permanent move could be made in the summer window. Still a long way to go on the rebuild in other words because holdover players that are still on good money based on contracts agreed by the old management regime will have to reach the end of their guaranteed contracts and move on and commitments to pay portions of DeRosario's and Barrett's contracts will have to expire before Winter will have the full salary cap at his disposal for use on players he actually rates.

[ensco]

Even the Metrostars never sank this low competitively.

A true supporter that proves his worth by hanging in now, is a total sucker. That's where we are.

I love this team but I am spending $5K a year on tickets. If I can't go, they are worth 0-30% of what I paid for them. I'm supposed to just accept that?

You can't just say "I'm only watching on TV, or I sit in the south end..... so what do I care?".....every fan has to care about the detoriating economic situation of the team. It's hugely dangerous to the long-term health of the franchise. If everyone drops their seats but otherwise still supports the team....how can that work?

[brad]

The Crew's lack of support is apparent even the year following an MLS Cup win. 5 years of ineptitude with no end in sight isn't fans abandoning ship, it's fans standing up to a corporation bent on taking advantage of them. It's completely different.

I'm starting to wonder about this. What I'm hearing more and more from the more "casual" supporters the games are "dreadful". I wonder if it really is a case of "angry at MLSE" once you step into the more general populace at BMO. The truth is, the atmosphere is flat and the games are boring.


I am also tired of hearing about how a "couple of good signings" is going to correct the ship. Guess what, half this club is Mariner and Winter's and they havent' done squat, so what exactly makes you believe that the transfer window is going to bring treasures beyond our imaginations? Like ER said, they could easily bring in bad players or players that don't fit as they could good, and then what?

This is my biggest worry. Winter and/or Mariner have brought in a number of their own players, and so far the quality has not been great. There could be reasons for this such as "we need people now, and don't have time to do a proper search", or it could be incompetence.

Even if Winter/Marniner know what they are doing, know where the holes are and how they want to fill them, expecting them to hit 100% in the summer transfer market is unrealistic. Even the best in the business don't come close to that level of success in the transfer market, so expecting our team to do so is only going to set you up for disappointment.

I'm not hopeful, but I'm going to wait to see how the handle the transfer window before I write them off completely.

[TFCin110]

Except when they were relegated, and a goal from United legend Dennis Law, playing for Manchester City sent them down.

Other than that, they were an upper table team for most of the years between Busby and Fergie.

It was actually Birmingham City winning that sent them down. Law's goal clinched it, but even if United beat city that day it wouldn't have been enough.

[brad]

I love this team but I am spending $5K a year on tickets. If I can't go, they are worth 0-30% of what I paid for them. I'm supposed to just accept that?

You could always downgrade at the next relocation and save money. But I get your point. At a certain point, the value of a season ticket no longer holds. In a lot of cases, it's going to more viable economically to let seasons go and pick up 2-for-1 tickets off scalpers outside the game.


You can't just say "I'm only watching on TV, or I sit in the south end..... so what do I care?".....every fan has to care about the detoriating economic situation of the team. It's hugely dangerous to the long-term health of the franchise. If everyone drops their seats but otherwise still supports the team....how can that work?

It doesn't. As the revenue stream dries up, so does the investment in the product (DP salaries, academy, ect). I suspect they would prop it up for a short period to try and get the crowds back, but I doubt they'd pump money into the team for long under these circumstances. That's bad business, and make no mistake - that's what TFC is to MLSE.

[Roogsy]

Even the Metrostars never sank this low competitively.

A true supporter that proves his worth by hanging in now, is a total sucker. That's where we are.

I love this team but I am spending $5K a year on tickets. If I can't go, they are worth 0-30% of what I paid for them. I'm supposed to just accept that?

You can't just say "I'm only watching on TV, or I sit in the south end..... so what do I care?".....every fan has to care about the detoriating economic situation of the team. It's hugely dangerous to the long-term health of the franchise. If everyone drops their seats but otherwise still supports the team....how can that work?


Word to the mutha...

[Fort York Redcoat]

A true supporter that proves his worth by hanging in now, is a total sucker. That's where we are.



Sorry, when? Now? Just now? I've been reading these sentiments for seasons now. It's opinion. Not fact.

[Heathen]

Back in 2007 TFC fans made fun of the Crew's lack of fan support. It will be interesting to see how full BMO Field is by the end of this decade if there is no MLS Cup win by that point. Supporting clubs like Manchester United and Liverpool is easy. It's the guys who hang in there year after year with clubs like Tranmere Rovers and Stockport County who know what support really means, in my opinion, but a comment you once made that I wanted supporting TFC to be like supporting NK Zagreb to bring it into line with following Hamilton Accies was probably quite insightful. Think there needs to be some balance and realism. TFC fans should go into tough love mode at more of a Newcastle United sort of breaking point than a Manchester United one. Don't think we're even close to being there yet and I honestly see signs of life where Aron Winter is concerned. A couple of good signings during the transfer window could make a big difference even to how the rest of this season unfolds.

I've seen this argument before and it is bogus. It would only make sense if Tranmere, Stockport, Hamilton or whoever had reasonable expectations of winning major trophies, they obviously don't. However, in the past 20 years all those teams have had numerous promotions (of course relegations too), it's hardly been unremitting failure for year on year. The only English club that qualifies in that regard is really Rochdale who went 35 years without promotion.

[__wowza]

spooke to a friend (desn't follow TFC, only serie A) whose good friends with jonathan de guzman, he said his brother was done with the team. done as in mentally, not physically, as in he's leaving till his contracts up.

i know, it's the friend of a friend talk, and it's nothing we don't all know, but apparently JDG² said his brother told his family he was just playing for the cheque and only working as hard as he can without risking injury. apparently he's treating the whole thing as a joke and cited mental exhaustion with the team, the words "he said he was 'done'" came up a lot.


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkOnvmAInGfM8-BLFx3WBKwAkD8AbBWn2FdJxaGTvUJLL80Hqyjg


take of it what you will, but again it's nothing we don't all know.

[menefreghista]

spooke to a friend (desn't follow TFC, only serie A) whose good friends with jonathan de guzman, he said his brother was done with the team. done as in mentally, not physically, as in he's leaving till his contracts up.

i know, it's the friend of a friend talk, and it's nothing we don't all know, but apparently JDG² said his brother told his family he was just playing for the cheque and only working as hard as he can without risking injury. apparently he's treating the whole thing as a joke and cited mental exhaustion with the team, the words "he said he was 'done'" came up a lot.


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkOnvmAInGfM8-BLFx3WBKwAkD8AbBWn2FdJxaGTvUJLL80Hqyjg


take of it what you will, but again it's nothing we don't all know.

The Toronto Sun is reporting that he still hasn't returned to the team from the Gold Cup. Canada was booted out last Tuesday.

Its pure speculation but it does appear his heart isn't into it.

[Beach_Red]

Even the Metrostars never sank this low competitively.

?

I'd like to see the consultant's report that recommended this style of play. I wonder if there was anything in it about player acquisition and how long it would take.

[DangerRed]

So are you done with the team or simply going to BMO?

I have to wonder how many will turn it off completely.



I think I'll always continue to follow the team, even if it gets to the point where I'm only watching the "Game In Six" lowlights after a match. But next year, I plan to go to only a handful of games. I, like many on here, have spent thousands of dollars and many hours of my free time on this team. The value is gone, and next season, so is my ass from BMO, especially given how really easy it is to get walk-ups.

[CSO_BBTB]

The Toronto Sun is reporting that he still hasn't returned to the team from the Gold Cup. Canada was booted out last Tuesday.

If true I wonder if that means his contract can be voided for going AWOL?

[denime]

During the pregame interview on Friday Winter said JDG was back from Gold Cup and he was injured.

[CSO_BBTB]

Remember the injured part being said, off to check again.

Edit: Denime's right, Winter definitely says he is back.

[menefreghista]

If true I wonder if that means his contract can be voided for going AWOL?

I really don't think TFC is that lucky. If anything he just wouldn't get paid for the time away.

I still think we are stuck with him until the end. Whenever that is.

[ensco]

Sorry, when? Now? Just now? I've been reading these sentiments for seasons now. It's opinion. Not fact.

Yes, just now. It's not just opinion.

Last year you could still get 75% of cost for almost any game. That was fine.

This year the secondary market has totally, utterly, collapsed. With the FO helping that along by dumping its own inventory into discounters.

[v00d00daddy]

I stopped reading this thread a page and half ago. It's so fucking sad that even a post game thread has very little to do with the acutal game. Especially when I've told myself I'm only going to post in game and tactics threads to avoid all the bullshit surrounding this club. (half of which I think is created in my mind by reading shit here)

So now there are officially no threads to talk about the acutal product on the field.

Even when the actual style of play is discussed people are shit on for it.

Ah well.

Honestly though....for all of you who can't bear another minute...then don't bear it.

Don't put yourself through it anymore. Take a break.

Don't worry...if the team proves to be as a bad as you all say they are I'll be the first to say you were all right.

Until then save yourself the aggravation because it's really making this place unbearable.

More unbearable than actually watching the team.

[ginkster88]

I stopped reading this thread a page and half ago. It's so fucking sad that even a post game thread has very little to do with the acutal game. Especially when I've told myself I'm only going to post in game and tactics threads to avoid all the bullshit surrounding this club. (half of which I think is created in my mind by reading shit here)

So now there are officially no threads to talk about the acutal product on the field.

Even when the actual style of play is discussed people are shit on for it.

Ah well.

Honestly though....for all of you who can't bear another minute...then don't bear it.

Don't put yourself through it anymore. Take a break.

Don't worry...if the team proves to be as a bad as you all say they are I'll be the first to say you were all right.

Until then save yourself the aggravation because it's really making this place unbearable.

More unbearable than actually watching the team.

I'm just here for the other Toronto sports. The "TFC" part of the forum became radioactive about 18 months ago.

[TFCin110]

I stopped reading this thread a page and half ago. It's so fucking sad that even a post game thread has very little to do with the acutal game. Especially when I've told myself I'm only going to post in game and tactics threads to avoid all the bullshit surrounding this club. (half of which I think is created in my mind by reading shit here)

So now there are officially no threads to talk about the acutal product on the field.

Even when the actual style of play is discussed people are shit on for it.

Ah well.

Honestly though....for all of you who can't bear another minute...then don't bear it.

Don't put yourself through it anymore. Take a break.

Don't worry...if the team proves to be as a bad as you all say they are I'll be the first to say you were all right.

Until then save yourself the aggravation because it's really making this place unbearable.

More unbearable than actually watching the team.

:flare::flare::flare::flare::flare::flare::flare:
THIS^^^^^

Yes, we all know the team is terrible right now. But what does reiterating it every other post do other then add more crap to the pile? Honestly, if TFC makes your life that miserable then don't support them. I am all for accountability, but this board isn't about accountibility, it's about bitching and whining about everything!

[menefreghista]

Why do we need post police? If you don't like someone's post, don't read it.

If you want to discuss other issues, discuss away. Nobody is stopping you.

[v00d00daddy]

Why do we need post police? If you don't like someone's post, don't read it.

If you want to discuss other issues, discuss away. Nobody is stopping you.

Here's a better idea. If you want to talk about the actual game...post away.

If you want to talk about the state of disarray that is this club in every single facet..guess what?

There are about 10 other threads going for that purpose.

It has nothing to do with post policing. It has everything to do with there not being a place to actually talk about this team as it pertains to the product on the field.

[menefreghista]

But the nature of internet forums is that they often go 'off topic'. So someone mentions attendance, and then someone mentions they couldn't sell their extras, and it turns into a debate about the state of the business of the team.

I would hate to have every thread under nazi moderation where that kind of discussion is discouraged.

Do you want this to turn into the U-Sector forum where anyone who isn't optimistic about the prospects of this club is shunned?

The fact of the matter is, if more people wanted to talk about the on field team matters, they would be talking about them. But the enthusiasm people have for the club has fallen so far that less and less people want to do that.

As for all the pessimism, it only exists because there are reasons for it. Once those reasons are removed/solved you would see a lot less of it.

[Azerban]

:facepalm: Do you know anything about football?

no i don't even like soccer

explain to me the offside rule

[Chevy]

But the nature of internet forums is that they often go 'off topic'. So someone mentions attendance, and then someone mentions they couldn't sell their extras, and it turns into a debate about the state of the business of the team.

I would hate to have every thread under nazi moderation where that kind of discussion is discouraged.

Do you want this to turn into the U-Sector forum where anyone who isn't optimistic about the prospects of this club is shunned?



The issue isn't that threads go 'off topic'. The issue is that this and many other threads are DRIVEN off topic by a few users who attempt to force their personal agendas on the group.

Wanna talk about the "4-3-3"? Sorry, but we're going to "winter sucks". Wanna talk about signing Eck? Sorry, it's a "mlse FO sucks" thread. I understand the frustration, really I do, but there has to be a place where one can NOT be negative.

[menefreghista]

The issue isn't that threads go 'off topic'. The issue is that this and many other threads are DRIVEN off topic by a few users who attempt to force their personal agendas on the group.

Talk about the "4-3-3"? End up at "winter sucks". Talk about signing Eck? End up a "mlse FO sucks".

Personal agendas? LOL. Good one.

And the Eckersley thread turned into a debate about ManU. But whatever, you see what you want.

[Chevy]

^^ First, the eck thread is an example.

Second, am I not right? Some here have a huge burr up their a$$ (for whatever reason) and refuse to let even one ray of light, one bit of optimism, or one thread of intelligent discussion through. To those that fall into that category - leave.

[menefreghista]

or one thread of intelligent discussion through.

The fallacy in your thinking is that the discussion the others are having about the shit state of our team isn't intelligent.

[Chevy]

The fallacy in your thinking is that the discussion the others are having about the shit state of our team isn't intelligent.

Then FFS keep it to the "Shite State Of our Team" thread. Get it?

[Whoop]

I'm just here for the other Toronto sports. The "TFC" part of the forum became radioactive about 18 months ago.

I'm with the ginkster!

[Chevy]

Here's a better idea. If you want to talk about the actual game...post away.

If you want to talk about the state of disarray that is this club in every single facet..guess what?

There are about 10 other threads going for that purpose.

It has nothing to do with post policing. It has everything to do with there not being a place to actually talk about this team as it pertains to the product on the field.

This.

[TFCin110]

This.

^^and seconded.

[Azerban]

Then FFS keep it to the "Blow Sunshine And Rainbows Up Each Others Asses" thread. Get it?

works both ways

and how is desperate grasping saccharine-sweet optimism less annoying than completely realistic and warranted negativity?

instead of backseat-moderating people into doing a thing, though, how about everyone post in every thread and no one has a tiny cry about it

[Chevy]

^^ Overreacting JUST a little there aren't we? Nothing to say you can't be negative, but just don't go out of your way to poison every friggin thread on the board.

Just once I would like to see a thread go for more than three posts without the Debbie Downers cattle-prodding everyone into the MLSE Sucks Corral.

[PopePouri]

The Crew's lack of support is apparent even the year following an MLS Cup win. 5 years of ineptitude with no end in sight isn't fans abandoning ship, it's fans standing up to a corporation bent on taking advantage of them. It's completely different.

I am also tired of hearing about how a "couple of good signings" is going to correct the ship. Guess what, half this club is Mariner and Winter's and they havent' done squat, so what exactly makes you believe that the transfer window is going to bring treasures beyond our imaginations? Like ER said, they could easily bring in bad players or players that don't fit as they could good, and then what?

Bullshit. There's holes in the roster that haven't been filled yet. They only have 1 centre forward and a makeshift AM. It doesn't take one transfer window to sort out given that the club dumped half of last year's squad before Winter/Mariner arrived. For them to bring on 10-15 odd players where all of them have to be effective in MLS would be incredibly difficult. Even so, they have signed a couple decent players with a decent salary. It's going to take more transfer windows for Winter/Mariner to them to field the types of players they want. You can't have the same expectations as Mo at this point of Winter's management career.

[Thomas]

I totally agree vOOdOOdaddy. I recognize that the results thus far this year are far from good, and everyone has a right to be critical...but you know what. I still look forward to watching the games, going to BMO field and seeing my team. It surprises me that with all of the incessant pessimistic and negative ranting, that someone would still be spending so much time and effort engaging in dialogue on a supporters forum.

[ManUtd4ever]

I was so disappointed with the result on Saturday that I couldn't even be bothered to post in this thread when I got home from the match.

Despite a lack of quality shots on goal, I thought TFC's overall form was decent in the first half, but as others have stated, the club inexplicably regressed with the advantage in the second half. It was also unfortunate that Sturgis had to be taken off due to injury.

Although the overall level of play has improved marginally as of late, TFC is sorely lacking the ability to finish offensive sequences. If Martina had not hit the post or Plata hit the empty net, the tone of this discussion could have been far more positive. Alas, the lack of depth on the squad does not bode well for TFC when injuries start to mount. In order for this club to have any hope of earning results on a consistent basis, the roster must be healthy at the very least.

Based on the club's current trajectory, it appears as though our only hope for any semblence of success this season will depend entirely on the outcome of the NCC Final. If TFC can earn a berth in the CONCACAF Champions League, and management can bring in quality reinforcements during the summer transfer window (with the extensive cap space now available), perhaps we will have something to look forward to in the second half of what has otherwise been an absolutely dreadful season.

[ensco]

It is extremely hard, bordering on impossible, to be a serious football fan, and a diehard supporter of this team, without getting upset right now.

Don't blame the people who point this out, we didn't do it.

As to thread hijack, welcome to the interweb.

[ExiledRed]

I've seen this argument before and it is bogus. It would only make sense if Tranmere, Stockport, Hamilton or whoever had reasonable expectations of winning major trophies, they obviously don't. However, in the past 20 years all those teams have had numerous promotions (of course relegations too), it's hardly been unremitting failure for year on year. The only English club that qualifies in that regard is really Rochdale who went 35 years without promotion.

hahaha.

Tranmere were in financial trouble and languishing in division 4. Their support, was similar to the crew's now. It was buffed up by Liverpool and Everton supporters who lived on the Wirral and responded to an appeal on local radio to go to the midweek games, which were much cheaper than Goodison or Anfield, and help Tranmere Rovers raise much needed funds to survive. The appeal was so succesful that the supporters cheered and funded Tranmere into the first division.

Ownership did everything it could to survive, and funnelled the excess into a run of successive promotions. The team was a bunch of real Mersey warriors too, and they deserved every single admission to Prenton Park that they sold.

Had they taken that money and increased support, used it to increase their paycheques and remained a crap division 4 side that couldnt score one past Crewe Alexander at home, then they wouldnt have deserved such support and wouldnt have gotten it either.

[CSO_BBTB]

The Wirral has a larger population than Sunderland. If people had consistently shown a bit of loyalty to their local area rather than traveling to a different county to follow either Liverpool or Everton, Tranmere could easily have been a reasonably big club comparable maybe to the likes of WBA or QPR. Most people wanted to back a team that wins major trophies reasonably regularly though so that didn't happen (probably should add that I realize that a lot of people from Liverpool moved to the Wirral in a flight to the suburbs sort of way, so know this is a sweeping generalization that doesn't rigidly apply to everybody from there).

TFC are not in an environment where larger fan support usually translates into on-field success and that's difficult to take if you are used to a steady diet of success. I get that part. What I find more difficult to accept is the notion that extra money generated hasn't been invested in TFC by MLSE. If you can look beyond the money spent = on-field success formula that would apply in England but is not so readily applicable in MLS due to the salary cap and roster regulations, a lot of people on here whinged incessantly about the fieldturf stopping the team from being successful because good players from overseas like Darren Huckerby wouldn't sign (arguably letting Mo Johnston off the hook for failure to make the playoffs in seasons two and three in the process). MLSE made the investment and gave you the dedicated grass playing surface you craved and have invested first at Lamport and now at Downsview to create training facilities for the youth academy and first team. It hasn't simply been a case of treating the team as a cash cow. Signing JDG and Mista was misguided, for example, but at least the extra effort financially was being made.

It's taking longer to get a winning side organized than it should have no question but in the final analysis if you live in southern Ontario TFC = the local team you should naturally support. Even if they are crap for the next few decades in a perennially underachieving Chicago Cubs sort of way supporting a more successful side from elsewhere is gloryhunting and only coming out of the woodwork to support the team on the odd occasion they do well is bandwagon jumping. If that happens, and I'll be amazed if it does to be honest as I'm quite optimistic now about what Winter is doing, the people who hang in there through the thinnest of thin like the regulars at Tranmere who still went along when the team were perpetual reelection candidates at the bottom of the fourth division, will be the guys who are the genuine supporters who actually really meant it when they sang "TFC 'til I die!" back when things got started. I was always more than a little bit dubious about that because I saw first hand how the Blizzard support evaporated post-NASL. That's why a Columbus Crew like steady thinning out of numbers in the stands is far from impossible even in a Toronto context because passion about a club just like the ability to sing a chant like Horto Magiko properly is something that is built up slowly over generations and isn't an instant thing.

[menefreghista]

The Wirral has a larger population than Sunderland. If people had consistently shown a bit of loyalty to their local area rather than traveling to a different county to follow either Liverpool or Everton, Tranmere could easily have been a reasonably big club comparable maybe to the likes of WBA or QPR. Most people wanted to back a team that wins major trophies reasonably regularly though so that didn't happen.

TFC are not in an environment where larger fan support usually translates into on-field success and that's difficult to take if you are used to a steady diet of success. I get that part. What I find more difficult to accept is the notion that extra money generated hasn't been invested in TFC by MLSE. If you can look beyond the money spent = on-field success formula that would apply in England but is not so readily applicable in MLS due to the salary cap and roster regulations, a lot of people on here whined incessantly about the fieldturf stopping the team from being successful because good players from overseas like Darren Huckerby wouldn't sign (arguably letting Mo Johnston off the hook for failure to make the playoffs in seasons two and three in the process). MLSE made the investment and gave you the dedicated grass playing surface you craved and have invested first at Lamport and now at Downsview to create training facilities for the youth academy and first team. It hasn't simply been a case of treating the team as a cash cow. Signing JDG and Mista was misguided, for example, but at least the extra effort financially was being made.

It's taking longer to get a winning side organized than it should have no question but in the final analysis if you live in southern Ontario TFC = the local team you should naturally support. Even if they are crap for the next few decades in a perennially underachieving Chicago Cubs sort of way doing anything else is gloryhunting and only coming out of the woodwork to support the team on the odd occasion they do well is bandwagon jumping. If that happens, and I'll be amazed if it does to be honest as I'm quite optimistic now about what Winter is doing, the people who hang in there through the thinnest of thin like the regulars at Tranmere who still went along when the team were perpetual reelection candidates at the bottom of the fourth division, will be the guys who are the genuine supporters who actually really meant it when they sang "TFC 'til I die!" back when things got started. I was always more than a little bit dubious about that because I saw first hand how the Blizzard support evaporated post-NASL. That's why a Columbus Crew like steady thinning out of numbers in the stands is far from impossible even in a Toronto context because passion about a club just like the ability to sing a chant like Horto Magiko properly is something that is built up slowly over generations and isn't an instant thing.

Of course the one variable you have skipped is the FO's actions towards the fans.

Loyalty is a two-way street. Its one thing to chastise people as 'fairweather' while the FO has excessively raised prices from season one on.

And that doesn't even touch on the policies that have led to the overall decrease in atmosphere (designated standing sections, heavy-handed flag/banner policies, etc.)

It is disingenuous to blame the fans for not showing loyalty when the FO doesn't always return the favour.

[CSO_BBTB]

Think you have missed the point of the last two sentences. MLSE clearly overestimated the depth of passion and level of loyalty to a team that was only four years old. The Maple Leafs pricing approach is only doable after a couple of generations because visceral level loyalty takes time to build. TFC should still very much be in franchise building mode rather than trying to maximize revenue streams to the absolute breaking point. I'm not sure to what extent that was about giving Ontario teachers a comfortable retirement and to what extent it was to fund more ambitious forays into the international transfer market and more lavish spending on youth development that clearly were not part of the 2007 model of operations but there is plenty of evidence that the latter could have been a significant part of the motivation. If it was there has to be some question now as to whether TFC is going to be able to keep pace with teams like the Sounders, Whitecaps, RBNY and the Galaxy when it comes to extra spending over and above the minimum required of all MLS franchises. Fortunately, the jury is still out as to whether that extra spending actually helps in terms of winning MLS Cup so that won't automatically doom us to following a Bolton or Blackburn rather than a Manchester United or Liverpool.

[ensco]

^I think that MLSE don't get enough credit for making grass happen. You are right about that.

The Academy (and facilities) spending, I'm not impressed the way others are by that, those are just things you should do, and they have very significant off-field rewards (ie you increase the odds of finding players you can sell).

It's the magnitude of underperformance that is shocking. I find motive irrelevant. I don't care whether management are venal or incompetent, the outcome is the same.

[ExiledRed]

The Wirral has a larger population than Sunderland. If people had consistently shown a bit of loyalty to their local area rather than traveling to a different county to follow either Liverpool or Everton, Tranmere could easily have been a reasonably big club comparable maybe to the likes of WBA or QPR. Most people wanted to back a team that wins major trophies reasonably regularly though so that didn't happen

Have you ever been to the Wirral?

Prenton Park is so deep in Birkenhead, you couldnt find it with a map. You could live your life in New Brighton, Wallasey, Heswall. Thursaston, Ellesmere Port, etc.... without ever venturing near it. As a team that represents a suburb of a non-city like Birkenhead, Tranmere Rovers is as locally tied to the population of the Wirral as Everton is to the rest of the Liverpool.

If you live in Seacombe, you can see the liver-birds across the water every day and get there within twenty minutes, but it would take you over 60 minutes on a bus before you could get within walking distance of Prenton Park, and you'd probably not realise what you were looking at either.

Its nonsense to suggest the Wirral people are bandwagon jumpers because they support a merseyside team other than bloody Tranmere.

[Roogsy]

^I think that MLSE don't get enough credit for making grass happen. You are right about that.

The Academy (and facilities) spending, I'm not impressed the way others are by that, those are just things you should do, and they have very significant off-field rewards (ie you increase the odds of finding players you can sell).

It's the magnitude of underperformance that is shocking. I find motive irrelevant. I don't care whether management are venal or incompetent, the outcome is the same.


This. Dear lord this.

[Fort York Redcoat]

^I think that MLSE don't get enough credit for making grass happen. You are right about that.

The Academy (and facilities) spending, I'm not impressed the way others are by that, those are just things you should do, and they have very significant off-field rewards (ie you increase the odds of finding players you can sell).

It's the magnitude of underperformance that is shocking. I find motive irrelevant. I don't care whether management are venal or incompetent, the outcome is the same.

Again, the Academy IS something in the right direction but it IS NOT something that was being done here or widespread elsewhere. I don't see the overwhelming over expectation of the Academy you seem to see. Just an appreciation we have one when there are many in our league still that don't.

And grass is great.:)

[__wowza]

^I think that MLSE don't get enough credit for making grass happen. You are right about that.

The Academy (and facilities) spending, I'm not impressed the way others are by that, those are just things you should do

i dont understand. people can flip around and say MLSE are all about the money, but when they take a LARGE portion of that money and reinvest it into the team, suddenly people aren't impressed.

[CSO_BBTB]

So much angst from some people after four and a half seasons. Not sure what they were expecting to be honest. The roster was there to get the job done in 2009 in terms of making the playoffs but for a variety of reasons (mainly the bizarre amount of late goals that were conceded) it didn't quite happen. Too bad but that's the way it goes sometimes in competitive sports and after a team underachieves like that there were obviously team culture issues that needed to be addressed by a new coaching regime.

Give it a couple of years for Winter to assemble the roster he wants after he has got rid of and replaced the well paid duds and malcontents left over from the old regime (a process that Preki didn't get a chance to complete, which set things back by at least a year) and good things can definitely happen. Better to try to be patient and broadly supportive right now than to have a nihilistic attitude that rejects anything and everything the team does due in large measure to bitterness over stuff that happened before Winter arrived.

[Carts]

So much angst from some people after four and a half seasons. Not sure what they were expecting to be honest. The roster was there to get the job done in 2009 in terms of making the playoffs but for a variety of reasons (mainly the bizarre amount of late goals that were conceded) it didn't quite happen. Too bad but that's the way it goes sometimes in competitive sports and after a team underachieves like that there were obviously team culture issues that needed to be addressed by a new coaching regime.

Give it a couple of years for Winter to assemble the roster he wants after he has got rid of and replaced the well paid duds and malcontents left over from the old regime (a process that Preki didn't get a chance to complete, which set things back by at least a year) and good things can definitely happen. Better to try to be patient and broadly supportive right now than to have a nihilistic attitude that rejects anything and everything the team does due in large measure to bitterness over stuff that happened before Winter arrived.


Even though its not fair to TFC, alot of the angst comes from MLSE's past track record of losing...

Its hard to look at TFC and think "...its only year-4..." or think "...I beleive they messed up initially, but are now building..." because we see that TFC is built on the foundation of MLSE...

Is that fair, to strictly the TFC staff etc - not really, but it is what it is...

I have NO FAITH that MLSE can produce a winner. Why? Simple history...

With massive financial support (from their worth, to fan base, to merchandise, TV deals) they have done very little give anyone any confidence in them whatsoever - but they are building nice condos...!

That history bleeds into the TFC supporter, that lack of trust, that decades of not just 'not winning' but being down right 'terrible' are added onto the 4 1/2 years of being bad in MLS...

Carts...

[CSO_BBTB]

I pay almost no attention to the NHL these days so that has no effect on me personally but I will concede that may be a factor on the angst thing. The way I always look at it is that while Harold Ballard was catastrophic from a Leafs fan standpoint (was actually paying attention back then as it was a lot more difficult to watch soccer from overseas) he was actually not bad when it came to how he ran the Ticats. Not sure it's safe to assume that they'll approach soccer in the exact same way as their main cash cow.

[Carts]

I pay almost no attention to the NHL these days so that has no effect on me personally but I will concede that may be a factor on the angst thing. The way I always look at it is that while Harold Ballard was catastrophic from a Leafs fan standpoint (was actually paying attention back then as it was a lot more difficult to watch soccer from overseas) he was actually not bad when it came to how he ran the Ticats. Not sure it's safe to assume that they'll approach soccer in the exact same way as their main cash cow.

You don't need to pay attention to the NHL or NBA to know how bad the Leafs and Raptors are... LOL...

They make the front page, top story, etc etc...

I'm a Toronto sports fan, and I live in Toronto - their stink is unavoidable, yet I still love them (which is exactly why they have no real need to imporve)... :(

Carts...

[ExiledRed]

.
Give it a couple of years for Winter to assemble the roster he wants after he has got rid of and replaced the well paid duds and malcontents left over from the old regime (a process that Preki didn't get a chance to complete, which set things back by at least a year) and good things can definitely happen. Better to try to be patient and broadly supportive right now than to have a nihilistic attitude that rejects anything and everything the team does due in large measure to bitterness over stuff that happened before Winter arrived.

Why should it take two years? Winter is proving to be inept, and his signings are proving to be as much duds and malcontents as any who were on the squad when he got here. His best signing yet, came through Mariner, on loan.

Im not projecting bitterness from pre-winter days here, the guy came here with no track record and no idea of what to expect and its shown. You can list his appalling decisions, terrible substitution strategies, awful selections and misjudgement of his own players, by game.

If in two years he turns it around it wont be because of anything he's done prior to today.

[Beach_Red]

So much angst from some people after four and a half seasons. Not sure what they were expecting to be honest...
Give it a couple of years for Winter to assemble the roster he wants...

Some of us were expecting a professionally run organization - at least as well-run as their condo building. We expected TFC to have an experienced guy running things. Maybe Winter will be a terrific coach someday, the problems are still all above him in the org chart (look at Anselmi's quotes today).

We spent a lot of money on season tickets and gave them substantial capital to build a proper organization - not just coaches, but upper management. And they didn't.

THis isn't blind anger, this is people comparing the way the companies they work for are run and the way TFC is run and deciding not to invest in TFC anymore because of that.

[Chevy]

i dont understand. people can flip around and say MLSE are all about the money, but when they take a LARGE portion of that money and reinvest it into the team, suddenly people aren't impressed.

This. For all the doom and gloom around here there have been times when the organization has responded and invested in the success of the club.

Give us a DP - Done (x2)
Give us Dero - Done
Grass - Done
Build an Academy - Done
Get Rid of Mo - Done
Put in a decent management team - Done
Stability - We'll see, but looks like it

Now nobody will argue that our DP signings have worked out, but very soon we will have three open slots. We have an academy, we have grass and we have a management team and system in place.

Are we terrible right now? Absolutely. But to put the entire load on Winter/Mariner after a few months on the job isn't completely fair.

[menefreghista]

Put in a decent management team - Done


How can you know this at this point?

[Roogsy]

So much angst from some people after four and a half seasons. Not sure what they were expecting to be honest.

This is so common around these parts. The mischaracterization that somehow those that are unhappy with the team is because we would only be happy with an MLS Cup winning team. It's garbage.

If you're telling me that back in 2007 if someone asked you what you expected the state of the team to be in 2011, that you would have responded anything close to what this team resembles today I would call BS.

Guess what, there are more options than merely having either an MLS Cup winning team or an ineptly run team. Do you know what we expected by season "Vee"? We expected a club making progress not being WORSE than it was in season 1. We expected a front office that didn't constantly battle it's supporters and charging it's fans the highest prices in MLS while providing them the worst product in MLS. We expected not to be one of the worst goal differential teams in league history (and if we continue on pace, own the record outright for ourselves). We expected not to have the worst points per game stat in league history. We expected not to have the highest player turnover of all teams since our existance began.

This from a team with one of the highest attendance records in the league? Surely you don't think this is an acceptable record. I would truly like to hear what exactly you expected from this team after 5 seasons and how reality has measured up to your expectations.

Your argument of giving Winter time has a flaw. You fail to account for the possibility that if Winter is not the man for the job at some point he may have to be replaced and then what? Another 2 or 3 year project begins anew?

The fact of the matter is that it is an urban legend that teams need the kind of time that you speak of to show they are on track (and therefore there should not be unreasonable expectations from fans to be patient for an amount of time that is unecessary.) Showing they are on track does not mean trophies and honours, but it does mean a coach has to show he can do more than produce one of the worst records this team has had in it's short existance. You don't need to suck that bad to fix what was wrong with this team. And that has been my argument since the beginning of this season.


Why should it take two years? Winter is proving to be inept, and his signings are proving to be as much duds and malcontents as any who were on the squad when he got here. His best signing yet, came through Mariner, on loan.

Im not projecting bitterness from pre-winter days here, the guy came here with no track record and no idea of what to expect and its shown. You can list his appalling decisions, terrible substitution strategies, awful selections and misjudgement of his own players, by game.

If in two years he turns it around it wont be because of anything he's done prior to today.

This.

Where did this "2 year" number come from? On what basis is 2 years more reasonable than 5 years? Or 1 year?

Why can't this team be better within months of a new coach coming in? Not MLS Cup winning better but at least not one that is on pace for a -20 goal differential season and less than 1 points per game?

Bruce Arena went into an LA team that was a mess and within WEEKS and MONTHS had them playing solid as a unit. With time, he added the pieces that made them excel but before that happened, he had them playing so well together that they were getting results while the pieces were coming in slowly. Backe went into NY and in the same amount of time (actually less time) than Winter has had, had NY solidly in playoff position by the halfway point of the year.

But for us...we have to suck the dredges of MLS and smile and thank our wonderful owners and overlords for giving us the blessing of listening to promises of better times while not actually showing us any proof of it? Give me a break.

Winter has not shown any exceptional ability whatsoever but has instead frightened us with some boneheaded decisions along the way. The only way to sort this team out is to give Winter solid and firm expectations for next year. And if those expectations don't include a playoff spot, we're all just suckers in this world of MLSE.

[Chevy]

How can you know this at this point?

I can't. I should have said 'make an effort to install a professional management team'. This they have done. Time will tell if they are a success, but the time needed is more than a few months to be sure.

[menefreghista]

Get Rid of Mo - Done

I missed this the first time.

We can't give management credit for doing something they should have done at least 1 year earlier.

We could have been one year ahead on our 'rebuild' had Anselmi shown some balls and fired Johnston when he should have.

[Roogsy]

I missed this the first time.

We can't give management credit for doing something they should have done at least 1 year earlier.

We could have been one year ahead on our 'rebuild' had Anselmi shown some balls and fired Johnston when he should have.

It's like closing the barn doors after the horse is gone. Gotta give credit where credit is due, the barn door is now closed! The job is done. Timing means nothing.

[ag futbol]

I missed this the first time.

We can't give management credit for doing something they should have done at least 1 year earlier.

We could have been one year ahead on our 'rebuild' had Anselmi shown some balls and fired Johnston when he should have.
Not only that, it's basically saying "way to correct your own mistake."

[Pyeddo]

This is so common around these parts. The mischaracterization that somehow those that are unhappy with the team is because we would only be happy with an MLS Cup winning team. It's garbage.

If you're telling me that back in 2007 if someone asked you what you expected the state of the team to be in 2011, that you would have responded anything close to what this team resembles today I would call BS.

Guess what, there are more options than merely having either an MLS Cup winning team or an ineptly run team. Do you know what we expected by season "Vee"? We expected a club making progress not being WORSE than it was in season 1. We expected a front office that didn't constantly battle it's supporters and charging it's fans the highest prices in MLS while providing them the worst product in MLS. We expected not to be one of the worst goal differential teams in league history (and if we continue on pace, own the record outright for ourselves). We expected not to have the worst points per game stat in league history. We expected not to have the highest player turnover of all teams since our existance began.

This from a team with one of the highest attendance records in the league? Surely you don't think this is an acceptable record. I would truly like to hear what exactly you expected from this team after 5 seasons and how reality has measured up to your expectations.

Your argument of giving Winter time has a flaw. You fail to account for the possibility that if Winter is not the man for the job at some point he may have to be replaced and then what? Another 2 or 3 year project begins anew?

The fact of the matter is that it is an urban legend that teams need the kind of time that you speak of to show they are on track (and therefore there should not be unreasonable expectations from fans to be patient for an amount of time that is unecessary.) Showing they are on track does not mean trophies and honours, but it does mean a coach has to show he can do more than produce one of the worst records this team has had in it's short existance. You don't need to suck that bad to fix what was wrong with this team. And that has been my argument since the beginning of this season.



This.

Where did this "2 year" number come from? On what basis is 2 years more reasonable than 5 years? Or 1 year?

Why can't this team be better within months of a new coach coming in? Not MLS Cup winning better but at least not one that is on pace for a -20 goal differential season and less than 1 points per game?

Bruce Arena went into an LA team that was a mess and within WEEKS and MONTHS had them playing solid as a unit. With time, he added the pieces that made them excel but before that happened, he had them playing so well together that they were getting results while the pieces were coming in slowly. Backe went into NY and in the same amount of time (actually less time) than Winter has had, had NY solidly in playoff position by the halfway point of the year.

But for us...we have to suck the dredges of MLS and smile and thank our wonderful owners and overlords for giving us the blessing of listening to promises of better times while not actually showing us any proof of it? Give me a break.

Winter has not shown any exceptional ability whatsoever but has instead frightened us with some boneheaded decisions along the way. The only way to sort this team out is to give Winter solid and firm expectations for next year. And if those expectations don't include a playoff spot, we're all just suckers in this world of MLSE.

Just popped into this thread for the first time and I see Roogsy is holding it down with truth like usual. Keep it up man.

That is all. Cheerio.

[Chevy]

^^ Yeah right, with an anti-MLSE manifesto in a post game thread (and every other thread for that matter).

[CSO_BBTB]

Not going to go into line by line rebuttal mode or get into repetitive tit-for-tats. Suffice to say I disagree with a few things written in certain posts above having followed a Tranmere-like club as a kid who maybe only 20% or so at best in their natural catchment actually supported. There were a lot of Rangers supporters in my family as well when I was growing up and I have strong sympathies that way in the context of Old Firm games so understand the other side of the coin even if I do genuinely believe that it is the guys who hang in there with the smaller less glamorous clubs that genuinely get what the concept of support is all about. Best to agree to disagree on that I think. Think this sums up quite well the kind of "supporter" of big clubs that most gets on the nerves of the fans of smaller clubs these days:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDVQOzHSh6w

Won't follow that up further.

Think the most important point is why it takes longer to turn an MLS team around than it might elsewhere? Think what people overlook is how restrictive some of the roster regulations are in MLS and how that changes the normal dynamic for a new coach. That drove Carver bonkers (e.g. dealing with Jeff Cunningham) but Winter seems to be able to get his head around it and it looks like he is going to be able to hang in there. At a large European club it's easy for a new coach to get the chequebook out to sign the new players required to carry out an instant revamp and to persuade any potentially disruptive unwanted players from the old regime that it is in their interests to move on to pastures new either through a transfer or a loan by sidelining them.

When dealing with an 18 to 20 man senior roster, a $2.5 million (?) salary cap, 6 discovery signings a year and transfers usually only possible within the confines of the single entity ownership setup with very limited scope for loaning out players, it is much more difficult to flush out or completely sideline the unwanted accumulated detritus from the previous coaching and managerial regime. That initially makes for an awkward dynamic where a coach is forced to have to use players, who know full well that they are not part of his long term plans and, therefore, may have no obvious motivation for helping the new coach be successful (a truly bizarre missed tap in by Jeff Cunningham against the Impact comes to mind from a conspiracy theory sort of standpoint). A recipe for a harmonious dressing room and an instant improvement in form? Hardly.

The good thing about what Klinsmann appears to have put in place is that by sticking to a particular coaching philosophy and tactical approach TFC can minimize the scope for disruption down the road. If it ultimately turns out that Winter isn't up to it another coach with a similar penchant for a Dutch style 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 will probably be able to make use of much more of the existing roster than Preki could of the 2009 team and pick up where the last guy left off. FC Edmonton are doing quite well in the NASL at the moment, for example. Harry Sinkgraven might be somebody to keep an eye on as a potential successor to Winter if things don't work out as expected after another couple of transfer windows have provided the opportunity to build the roster the incumbent coach actually wants.

[menefreghista]

Think the most important point is why it takes longer to turn an MLS team around than it might elsewhere? Think what people overlook is how restrictive some of the roster regulations are in MLS and how that changes the normal dynamic for a new coach. That drove Carver bonkers (e.g. dealing with Jeff Cunningham) but Winter seems to be able to get his head around it and it looks like he is going to be able to hang in there. At a large European club it's easy for a new coach to get the chequebook out to sign the new players required to carry out an instant revamp and to persuade any potentially disruptive unwanted players from the old regime that it is in their interests to move on to pastures new either through a transfer or a loan by sidelining them.

Comparing TFC to other European clubs misses the point completely.

The big question is why does TFC take way longer than EVERY other MLS club to build their squad into a half decent team? That is a way fairer comparison and makes the management group of this team look bad.

[CSO_BBTB]

Think you are making a very dubious assertion with no supporting evidence. Following the same sort of trajectory that Columbus did under Sigi Schmid would work for me.

[menefreghista]

Think you are making a very dubious assertion with no supporting evidence. Following the same sort of trajectory that Columbus did under Sigi Schmid would work for me.

How is that dubious? Has any other MLS team had this poor a set of results in a 5-year span?

Why does every other team in MLS that is 'building' appear to do it much quicker than TFC?

[CSO_BBTB]

In the previous post it was "build their squad into a half decent team". TFC had that in 2009, in my opinion, even if the results were not quite there due to the bizarre number of late goals that were conceded (but hey Paul Winsper was the greatest at fitness training blah blah). The ironic thing is that many of the people making the most noise about lack of success over five years were among those who drank the koolaid where fieldturf being the issue was concerned in the first three years. Now after the end of the Johnston era we are on the next three year cycle to put humpty dumpty back together again. Time to support rather than whinge.

[ensco]

^Hang on. The 2006 Crew had a group of young studs in Marshall, Oughton, Gaven, Heyduk (OK he wasn't that young) and a fine Chilean CB named Marcos Gonzalez. Schmid was an MLS battle-tested manager.

It's not just 20/20 hindsight to say that there were lots of reasons for 2006 Crew fans to be optimistic about the future, that we don't have.

[CSO_BBTB]

I'd actually prefer that Preki were still in the job on the battle-tested manager bit but some people decided that they weren't going to take it any more.

[ensco]

The ironic thing is that many of the people making the most noise about lack of success over five years were among those who drank the koolaid where fieldturf being the issue was concerned in the first three years.

As one of those who made the "most noise" about the turf, I wish to defend my honour - I just didn't/don't think soccer on plastic is the real deal. That was the main point, for me anyway.

As it turned out, BMO hasn't been Fortress BMO since the day the grass went in.

[Heathen]

Think you are making a very dubious assertion with no supporting evidence. Following the same sort of trajectory that Columbus did under Sigi Schmid would work for me.

Sigi Schmid had already won an MLS Cup and a Supporters Shield, Winter has won fa

[CSO_BBTB]

As one of those who made the "most noise" about the turf, I wish to defend my honour - I just didn't/don't think soccer on plastic is the real deal. That was the main point, for me anyway.

As it turned out, BMO hasn't been Fortress BMO since the day the grass went in.

You made a lot of noise about what I was supposed to have said on that when I wasn't posting on here. I have always preferred grass to fieldturf and pushed the fieldturf to Lamport scenario hard enough in year one that I got a long talking to about certain fiscal realities preventing it from a senior member of staff at one game. What I could never accept was that fieldturf was the obstacle preventing on-field success. Mo should have been shown the door when he started actively using it as an excuse late in the 2008 season. There was a host of first round picks and a vast amount of allocation money that could have set TFC up for two or three years of strong playoff runs but in Carver we Trust....


Sigi Schmid had already won an MLS Cup and a Supporters Shield, Winter has won fa

Already answered. I'd prefer they'd stuck with Preki but clearly a large portion of the fan base is not comfortable with coaches that primarily have an MLS pedigree and prefer a more attacking style of play.

[menefreghista]

Mo should have been shown the door when he started actively using it as an excuse late in the 2008 season.

Well, it looks like we do agree on something.

[brad]

In the previous post it was "build their squad into a half decent team". TFC had that in 2009, in my opinion, even if the results were not quite there due to the bizarre number of late goals that were conceded (but hey Paul Winsper was the greatest at fitness training blah blah).

I didn't think there was anything bizarre about the number of late goals. They came because TFC couldn't adapt to a late game push from the opposition. We couldn't keep the ball or get an attack going to take the pressure off, so we ended up with wave after wave of attack and eventually we crumbled. Pretty standard stuff IMHO.

[spark]

I'd prefer they'd stuck with Preki but clearly a large portion of the fan base is not comfortable with coaches that primarily have an MLS pedigree and prefer a more attacking style of play.

??? You really think if we had gotten Schmidt/Kinnear/Arena people would not be comfortable with that?

I think the last part is tongue in cheek? It sounds like Paul Beirne's excuse in the can at the next TownHall Meeting if Winter doesn't work out.

[CSO_BBTB]

I can remember what the reaction used to be like both online and at games when I brought up Bruce Arena as a possible future coach/GM back in 2007 and 2008. In Carver people trusted despite his bizarre postgame press conferences and all around cluelessness tactically once the weather got hot and humid. There's a very eurocentric mentality that hasn't gone away yet, in my opinion. The last bit wasn't tongue in cheek. Did you miss all the references to "prekiball" on the various boards last season?