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denime
06-11-2011, 05:46 AM
Mornin'


:canada::flare::scarf::drum:GAME DAY !!!:drum::scarf::flare::canada:




TFC TV Pregame Interviews (http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=2&id=3238)


Williams Hurt In Jamaica Victory (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/06/williams-hurt-jamaica-victory)


Molinaro: TFC correct to stay the tactical course (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/johnmolinaro/2011/06/tfc-correct-to-stay-the-tactical-course.html)


Canada's de Guzman fit for Gold Cup (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/06/10/sp-canada-guadeloupe.html)


TFC facing tough task against Galaxy (http://www.torontosun.com/2011/06/10/tfc-facing-tough-task-against-galaxy)


Can Canada Rebound At Gold Cup? (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/06/can-canada-rebound-gold-cup)





SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshine-girl)

Shep
06-11-2011, 05:59 AM
Hope Julian doesn't aggravate his injury again today.

denime
06-11-2011, 06:57 AM
Molinaro: TFC correct to stay the tactical course (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/johnmolinaro/2011/06/tfc-correct-to-stay-the-tactical-course.html)




A major part of Winter's attempt to change the culture of Toronto FC is to set the team up for success down the road - not just this season, but for the next five seasons. TFC can't just think about today. It has to think about tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that, and the day after that.


Don't build the system around the players you have. Challenge the players to adapt to the system. Get it ingrained in their footballing conscience. Stay true to the tactical vision. Ride out the early bumps on the road because in the end it will lead you down the pathway towards success.


But in the meantime, TFC would do well to resist the temptation for the easy fix, and not succumb to that horrific plague of the modern game - achieving results at the expense of long-term growth.


Good read,thanks JM

Shep
06-11-2011, 07:10 AM
and I gotta say... that SSG is like a 6 lol.

needs a few of these to rank up to a 9 or 10:
:drinking::drinking::drinking::drinking::drinking:

Razcle
06-11-2011, 08:34 AM
Morning Denime! Thanks for posting the news links as always COYR!

:flare::scarf::flare::canada::flare:

Wull
06-11-2011, 08:47 AM
Great article by JM, especially foregoing the quick fix option that IS available to us. SSG is a welcome relief from yesterday although she reminds me a little too much of an ex

Fort York Redcoat
06-11-2011, 08:51 AM
It's days like today that the league should avoid.

Canada and League play on the same day- but it does fill my day with footie!

p.s. Great sig, Shep.

Pookie
06-11-2011, 10:29 AM
I enjoyed that article by JM.

I remember posting that TFC have 2 options when it comes to building a team. Adopt a system to suit the players you have or adopt a system and get the players to play it.

The first route offers best potential for immediate success. The downside is that it will change as players enter in and out of the first team. Given that the MLS is a development league with younger players having aspirations to move on and older players coming here to stretch careers, this route is risky as your preparation becomes a moving target.

The other route is a longer process. Players take time to learn the system and the transfer windows only come twice a year. Players learning the philosophy in the Academy aren't ready yet and it is quite likely that you won't have immediate success given the contracts you have. Over the longer term though, this route is more likely to enable the team to succeed year in and year out as players become interchangeable.

I enjoyed reading something that was thought out and offered a reason to stay the course. Well done JM

Beach_Red
06-11-2011, 10:54 AM
I enjoyed that article by JM.

I remember posting that TFC have 2 options when it comes to building a team. Adopt a system to suit the players you have or adopt a system and get the players to play it.


Is there a difference between adopting a system to the players you have and adopting a system to the players you have available? The idea of building this system seems like a great idea that hinges on being able to bring in the right players. Is the team doing all it can to make that happen?

Roogsy
06-11-2011, 11:08 AM
This is one instance where J-Mol and I disagree. But it's all good in the hood!

As for the rest of us, everyone keeps talking about how we "dont have the pieces" so what message does that send to the players that most of them will be out so that the "system" can have an effect? And then we expect "loyalty" from players? That's laughable.

Nobody is talking about the elephant in the room. And that is in order to employ this "magical" new system, you need the players for it. The REAL question is can you get the players needed to play that system for the price that we have to pay considering we are part of a league with a salary cap. I submit to you no. You cannot bring in the players needed because the ones with the skill and soccer know-how needed to succeed in that system will find better employment opportunities elsewhere.

So where does this leave our wonderful new "system"? It's really quite simple. I am sure McDonalds would love to have a world-class chef cooking in their kitchen, but will he accept minimum wage?

Yeoman
06-11-2011, 11:27 AM
and this is why i'm willing to sacrifice a few years, for decades of prominence
as stated in the article, barca didn't just become the phenom that it is over night (okay well you know john said it better)
it took time, the academy is where it starts
we need the talent to start young, and train them up. i can accept that there's almost no one in the MLS that could truly get this system.
two or three bad years are acceptable for thirty good.
nfl, mlb (cept those fucking yankees), and even NHL teams take several years to build and get somewhere. i'm not sure how soccer, especially soccer that has a salary cap, could be any different.

Gazza
06-11-2011, 11:54 AM
This Molinaro guy is a literary genius.

I enjoyed the article, and not just because he's spot-on. I swear!

Dave67
06-11-2011, 12:02 PM
This is one instance where J-Mol and I disagree. But it's all good in the hood!

As for the rest of us, everyone keeps talking about how we "dont have the pieces" so what message does that send to the players that most of them will be out so that the "system" can have an effect? And then we expect "loyalty" from players? That's laughable.

Nobody is talking about the elephant in the room. And that is in order to employ this "magical" new system, you need the players for it. The REAL question is can you get the players needed to play that system for the price that we have to pay considering we are part of a league with a salary cap. I submit to you no. You cannot bring in the players needed because the ones with the skill and soccer know-how needed to succeed in that system will find better employment opportunities elsewhere.

So where does this leave our wonderful new "system"? It's really quite simple. I am sure McDonalds would love to have a world-class chef cooking in their kitchen, but will he accept minimum wage?

I believe Winter is fully evaluating every player that is here. It's not like he can axe them all today and start over, so he coaches a system week after week and he is fully evaluating every player to see who is salvagable and who is not.

It's not like these guys have been world beaters before and Winter is refusing to coach into their massive strengths. What makes you think they would so great if Winter went after a dumbed down version of what he wants?

Winter deserves time to make all the changes he desires. McDonalds could fire a full staff of incompetent people at a restaurant and replace them in a day or two. Winter cannot.

Beach_Red
06-11-2011, 12:10 PM
and this is why i'm willing to sacrifice a few years, for decades of prominence
as stated in the article, barca didn't just become the phenom that it is over night (okay well you know john said it better)
it took time, the academy is where it starts
we need the talent to start young, and train them up. i can accept that there's almost no one in the MLS that could truly get this system.
two or three bad years are acceptable for thirty good.
nfl, mlb (cept those fucking yankees), and even NHL teams take several years to build and get somewhere. i'm not sure how soccer, especially soccer that has a salary cap, could be any different.


This is interesting because the systems in European soccer for Braca and the NFL and NHL (no academies, salary capped and relying on drafting players from junior and the NCAA) is completely different.

Long term success in the NFL and NHL relies on being able to change styles as the leagues change. Sure, some teams in both leagues can be consistently better than others, but "decades of prominence," is very rare.

It's not the style of play for TFC that's really the issue, it's where will the players will come from and how steady will the supply be?

So far TFC's biggest problems have been signing players and retaining players. And getting the most out of the players who do stay.

Roogsy
06-11-2011, 12:29 PM
I am tired of people referencing Barcelona. Its obvious nobody knows about the history of the club but we're quoting it as some sort of reference for TFC?

Roogsy
06-11-2011, 12:34 PM
I believe Winter is fully evaluating every player that is here. It's not like he can axe them all today and start over, so he coaches a system week after week and he is fully evaluating every player to see who is salvagable and who is not.

Why not? He did it with half the team. So not only did he do half the job already but somehow doing it with the other half will yield better results? This just feeds into the baseless belief that you have to turn over a team 100% in order to succeed. A good coach doesn't have to go to that extreme.

TFCRegina
06-11-2011, 12:51 PM
Red Nation Online Gold Cup Coverage



Interviews
http://www.rednationonline.ca/PreviewCanadaGuadeloupevideointerviews.aspx

ArmenJBX
06-11-2011, 12:55 PM
I am tired of people referencing Barcelona. Its obvious nobody knows about the history of the club but we're quoting it as some sort of reference for TFC?

+1 and thank you

torontocelt
06-11-2011, 01:14 PM
I have to say that I too think the comparisons made with Barca are ludicrous. Barca have the ability to poach the best kids from all over the world if they wish. They have some of the best coaches in the world, they have an unbelievable set up and they have had a long time to learn from their mistakes. The kids at barca also have a chance to see world class players train day in and day out and they can be inspired not only by them, not only by the history of the club, not only by a stadium that is immense but also by the huge fans support all over the world. Kids training at Barca will live, sleep and breathe football, they will be incredibly dedicated and they will have all of the best help and resources known to football to help them reach the top level. When they do reach the top level they also have the chance to play with 50 million pound signings, money is not an object to Barca and not all of their team came through their youth ranks.

TFC on the other hand will not have the benefit of hand picking the best kids, I am assuming most of the kids will be canadian and as such they will be limited on the pitch and there will not be huge numbers to pick from. Trying to convince Canadian kids that football is the only sport worth playing will be impossible, Barca dont really have that problem. The coaches at TFC are not at the same standard as Barca, I would however feel a lot better about our chances if Winter was in charge of the youth set up and the youth set up only as this is obviously where he might excel. You can have fantastic facilities but if you dont have great coaches then you will find your team will not improve as much as they can. What are the credentials of the current TFC coaching staff? Obviously some of them have had good playing careers but what coaching credentials do they have? I'm not wanting to put down what TFC are trying to accomplish with their training facility, it is a great thing but all this talk of Barca has a system so if TFC copies it we should be on the way to success is not as clear cut as some make it out to be. There are many other factors outside of the 'system' going on at Barca that helps them maintain their position as the best football team in the world with a crazy successful youth set up.

Dave67
06-11-2011, 01:17 PM
Why not? He did it with half the team. So not only did he do half the job already but somehow doing it with the other half will yield better results? This just feeds into the baseless belief that you have to turn over a team 100% in order to succeed. A good coach doesn't have to go to that extreme.

I don't think I said that. I think I said he is evaluating everyone fully. Only time will tell what % of the team is turned around. You are not giving him enough time. I am getting the sense this board wants near perpetual chaos in the front office. I understand everyone is frustrated, I'm frustrated, but Winter and co need time to at least go through a transfer window and show us if they have anything up their sleeves.

Yeoman
06-11-2011, 01:26 PM
This is interesting because the systems in European soccer for Braca and the NFL and NHL (no academies, salary capped and relying on drafting players from junior and the NCAA) is completely different.

Long term success in the NFL and NHL relies on being able to change styles as the leagues change. Sure, some teams in both leagues can be consistently better than others, but "decades of prominence," is very rare.

It's not the style of play for TFC that's really the issue, it's where will the players will come from and how steady will the supply be?

So far TFC's biggest problems have been signing players and retaining players. And getting the most out of the players who do stay.

ontario is a big place. i mean sure tfc probably could branch out past TO to get players.
we've got what? two players that offically started as academy players, that are now on the senior squad. there's more coming from the academy. alot of good players there.
it can happen. i just pray the temptations of europe isn't that large that they won't bail on us after that amateur/two years with tfc contract thing is done.
why get tired of the comments of barca? they're the biggest team in the world that have a style of play that is similar to what we want to attain is it not?

J .
06-11-2011, 01:43 PM
I dont think JMO realizes that the golden goose can be killed if TFC doesnt turn things around to respectability. If TFC doesnt start winning games now, 7k at an MLS game is not a far off number.

Unfortunately the supporters and casuals need wins, sure a few of us will go thick and thin, but many, as already happening, are stopping going. With only fraction of games at home for us in June, July and August, it is imperative TFC finds its legs and if it gets thrashed during this period, TFC could find itself at the bottom of the standing in terms of points and butts in the seats.

Winning games should be the order of the day. They can tactically develop the world if they want in the Academy so long as on match they they give us some form of result and all season they have been the worst TFC side ever.

kaos197O
06-11-2011, 02:33 PM
i just pray the temptations of europe isn't that large that they won't bail on us after that amateur/two years with tfc contract thing is done.


This will likely be the problem. If our Academy kids are ANY good within this system, they will be getting looks from all over. It is difficult to get good payers or potentially good players who can play in this system effectively, especially for the kind of loot that TFC is going to pay. While we may get a 1 or 2 years out of them on the 1st team, we will likely see the door revolving as much as it ever has. Only difference being, that we will have someone ready and capable of filling those shoes when the time comes.

On a side note, WHERE are we going to pick up all of these players who are trained and capable within this system on the cheap? MLS? It's not like every club in the world is training guys to play this way and it's not like we are offering great $$$$$ or anything. I mean over half of the fans at BMO are likely making more loot than the majority of our players.

As for the system itself being successful here, well.....we haven't even come close to playing it well(or at all some days) and we still have a shot at the playoffs(something I still predict we will make this year, even if it is by the skin of our noses), so what else is there to say other than we are trying to develop a system that has made the top clubs in the world exciting to watch. Hope it works and hope we can see it dominate one day.

Fingers Crossed!

Whoop
06-11-2011, 02:49 PM
I think the reference to Barcelona is in conjunction with Johan Cruyff. When Cruyff played at Barcelona he suggested starting a youth academy. This was in 1979. During the '80s, Barcelona only 1 league title. The culmination of the initial investment of the youth academy didn't come until Cruyff took over as manager in the late 80s and then won a string of league titles in the '90s plus a Champions Cup.

However, Cruyff had changed the mindset of the club during his time there that now Barcelona is reaping the benefits. Question is would Barcelona be where they are today if in the mid to late 80s, and then subsequently in the mid to late 90s after Cruyff left and went through another dry spell, if Barcelona had scrapped what Cruyff had proposed and went the galactico route of Real Madrid?

However, the key to all this though is how long did it take a big club like Barcelona to get where they are today? Over a decade.

TFC doesn't have that kind of time.

That's the difference. Barcelona was on old club already, TFC is brand spanking new.

ag futbol
06-11-2011, 03:58 PM
How different is our system though, really?

We're not exactly playing a Barcelona inspired 4-3-3 but more like a 4-2-3-1 most times with JDG and Tchani shielding the backline. Not to mention the two FW are coming back so deep it's often playing as a 4-5-1.

A couple of years ago everybody in MLS was playing 4-4-2 (with the exception of DCU) but now i see quite a few teams who at least occasionally switch to the formation and some that play it primarily. The thing is, in North America we don't exactly teach our players to go all out on the attacking end. We're more likely to reward a guy for exerting energy both ways rather than perhaps forcusing his efforts on one area if that's what he does best. So as a result it's not exactly like we're making drastic offensive forays and getting burned on hard counter attacks consistently. So i neither see a formation as a positive or a negative.

All I see is:

1) a system that's not really that different from the other being sold as something that's supposed to be much greater.

2) A totally under-talented squad, which would be a problem regardless of our formation.

Beach_Red
06-11-2011, 04:28 PM
However, the key to all this though is how long did it take a big club like Barcelona to get where they are today? Over a decade.

TFC doesn't have that kind of time.



Even if TFC had the time, is that kind of organization possible in MLS? Won't it still come down to signing players and keeping players? Is that really going to be possible with a salary capped, single-entity league and contracts owned by the league?

It just seems like an odd model to choose for s league with such a different set-up. And like you say, one that will take a long time to see results.

I'd really like to see the consultant's report that outlined this plan and the expectations and timeline.

Whoop
06-11-2011, 04:43 PM
I get it now.... TFC is not going the Ajax route but the PSV route. LOL




In accordance with their financial plight there will be more emphasis on youth development and less spending at PSV, so says Director of Football Marcel Brands.


No wonder TFC keeps talking about cap space and such. LOL

[NBF]
06-11-2011, 08:41 PM
PSV: They're doing pretty good and they have been doing better than the big clubs in Eredevisie.

If I had to pick one or the other I would pick both, but PSV has definitely been going the youth route.

Whoop
06-11-2011, 09:36 PM
After winning four in a row they haven't won the Eredivisie since 2008. And they haven't won the Cup since 2005.

And this quote is from today. I can see Twente and Ajax, now that Cruyff is back in the picture, being the two dominant teams for the next few years.

Gazza_55
06-12-2011, 09:25 PM
Even if TFC had the time, is that kind of organization possible in MLS? Won't it still come down to signing players and keeping players? Is that really going to be possible with a salary capped, single-entity league and contracts owned by the league?

It just seems like an odd model to choose for s league with such a different set-up. And like you say, one that will take a long time to see results.

I'd really like to see the consultant's report that outlined this plan and the expectations and timeline.

A few questions.

What difference does it makes if the league owns the contracts? And because it is a single-entity league wouldn't that mean each club has more of a chance to keep its players? No internal free agency and all.

Finally, what model would you choose to start up a soccer league in North America? Before you answer pretend it is your money investing in one of the initial 8 clubs.

Beach_Red
06-12-2011, 10:23 PM
A few questions.

What difference does it makes if the league owns the contracts? And because it is a single-entity league wouldn't that mean each club has more of a chance to keep its players? No internal free agency and all.

Finally, what model would you choose to start up a soccer league in North America? Before you answer pretend it is your money investing in one of the initial 8 clubs.

The single-entity, league owned contracts have been an excuse used by a number of players for not coming to MLS. It may be really be an issue or it may just be negotiating, who knows.

I didn't mean the system for the league, that was clearly the only one people were willing to invest in so that's the one we got, fair enough, I meant the system for TFC that seems to need a high-skill kind of player so the danger is the roster will always be one or two players away from consistency because it will always be so thin (because of the salary cap and roster restrictions). If it works it could be great, but it seems like it was the riskier of choices. Let's hope it works out.