Paul Mariner: We're moving along

[Roogsy]

John Molinaro's latest article.

Mariner's thoughts on the club's progress.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/06/02/sp-paul-mariner.html

[Suds]

I've read over that articel a couple times. I think the underlying tone is they (TFC caching staff) are realizing the squad they currently have are having a hard time learning the system as it pertains to various game situations. (ex. what do you do if a player makes a run and loses the ball way out of position, what's each players responsibility).

The challenge with any advanced team system in any team sport is it requires all the players on the filed/pitch/floor to do their jobs. Take one or two out and it creates big holes in the game plan. This is what is killing us right now.

I mused to Carts last night that right now when TFC play well we are slightly above average. (due to young team, some poor talent, still learning the system, etc) But when we have a few guys sucking on any given day TFC suck real bad.

I'm still down with the course the team has set in term of developing a style and working on getting or training the players to play it. I'm not a fan of adapting a system to the players because every year your team is different.

The one thing that stands out is when Mariner says they can build a style and field a fairly competitive team in the MLS. On that front TFC is failing at the current time.

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm still down with the course the team has set in term of developing a style and working on getting or training the players to play it. I'm not a fan of adapting a system to the players because every year your team is different.

This is my view too, Suds. I'm glad the team are implementing a vision for how the team should play, and then searching for players that fit within that vision.

Not a whole lot to draw from this article, except the acknowedgement from the FO that they know they need better defenders and a goal-scorer. The rest is just the usual pablum offered by GM's and coaches whose teams are not playing well.

- Scott

[ilikemusic]

His top priorities? Signing a defender and getting a goal-scorer.


Is it still 2008? :facepalm:


Also, moving 'along'? Not 'forward', or 'in the right direction', but simply 'along'.

I know its just semantics but fuck, 'moving along' sounds like something an old man says because he is happy to not be dead.

[Shakes McQueen]

His top priorities? Signing a defender and getting a goal-scorer.


Is it still 2008? :facepalm:



Also, moving 'along'? Not 'forward', or 'in the right direction', but simply 'along'.


I know its just semantics but fuck, 'moving along' sounds like something an old man says because he is happy to not be dead.


I think you're picking it apart a bit too much, haha.

- Scott

[Pachuco]

This is my view too, Suds. I'm glad the team are implementing a vision for how the team should play, and then searching for players that fit within that vision.

Not a whole lot to draw from this article, except the acknowedgement from the FO that they know they need better defenders and a goal-scorer. The rest is just the usual pablum offered by GM's and coaches whose teams are not playing well.

- Scott

Actually, I found it interesting that Mariner himself thinks with the parity in this league you should be able to be competitive while rebuilding. It's obvious from the article that TFC isn't where they thought it would be at this point. The first step is admitting it and I'm happy they have, now let's see them do something about it. Looking forward to it.

[Roogsy]

Actually, I found it interesting that Mariner himself thinks with the parity in this league you should be able to be competitive while rebuilding. It's obvious from the article that TFC isn't where they thought it would be at this point. The first step is admitting it and I'm happy they have, now let's see them do something about it. Looking forward to it.


Mariner admits it but people around here still don't believe it.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

The system is the foundation, we must stand behind our vision. It is a great system that is attractive. We must let the flower bloom....ive stated before, I will give Winter and Mariner until May 2012 then I will review my position....until then I fully stand behind our vision.

[Strikers]

I mused to Carts last night that right now when TFC play well we are slightly above average. (due to young team, some poor talent, still learning the system, etc) But when we have a few guys sucking on any given day TFC suck real bad.



I totally agree with this statement. Looks like there is still some finger pointing, going on after a mistake or those giveaways. TFC are showing signs of keeping their mouths closed and playing through said mistakes.

I'm hopeful by end of season the team will have a better mentality of stop
complaining and just play.

[Parkdale]

"We're 13 games into the season. We still have a lot of games to play. Last Saturday may be a kick up the backside that everybody needed because we have to roll our sleeves up and show commitment on the field," stated Mariner.

trouble is, this is the 'thin' part of the season where injuries pile up and we lose players to international duty.

Up until now, I feel that TFC has been moving laterally. We've replaced one system (or Mo's non-system) for another one (Winter's System). Problem is that we haven't made progress with that system, and are still losing games. Hopefully we've finished the lateral move, and can now focus on progressing.

[P-NUTZ]

"I would like to think you could put a competitive team on the field [while rebuilding]. Because let's face it, there is a lot of parity in MLS."


i completely believe this, and expect them to produce some better results with what they have.

[DangerRed]

Mariner admits it but people around here still don't believe it.

Totally agree. I'm amazed at how often season seat holders who pay lots of good money for their tickets say "Ah well, it's a rebuilding year, so I've written it off."

That's ridiculous to me in this league. This is one of the few instances that parity can help a struggling team along: if you make the right moves, you can salvage your season in 10 games or less.

I think the way we're looking and with the depth issues we face, Winter will have to soon pick CCL or MLS and push in one and abandon the other (of course assuming Vancouver doesn't snatch the title from our hands).

[maninb]

I think he's bang on about what TFC need RIGHT NOW....a CB and DP Scorer....I'm really disappointed in Stevanovic's "progress"....seeing him playing in Serie A he looked like he could be a force here, but either his confidence is shattered or those highlights I saw were an aberation....but I still have faith in Winter and Mariner...let's give them a chance...Now we just need to crush KC today and get some confidence and momentum....

[Cashcleaner]

"I would like to think you could put a competitive team on the field [while rebuilding]. Because let's face it, there is a lot of parity in MLS."

Glad to see someone at the club has the guts to set the record straight on what "rebuilding" actually means. My only concern is that while an acknowledgement has been made that the team isn't meeting expectations, very few details are given as to how we can rectify things - aside from the central defender and striker remark.

[brad]

I think he's bang on about what TFC need RIGHT NOW....a CB and DP Scorer....I'm really disappointed in Stevanovic's "progress"....seeing him playing in Serie A he looked like he could be a force here, but either his confidence is shattered or those highlights I saw were an aberation....but I still have faith in Winter and Mariner...let's give them a chance...Now we just need to crush KC today and get some confidence and momentum....

Basing any expectations off a highlight reel from a single second half sub appearance is a bit silly. The fact that he had one sub appearance in the Serie A and couldn't get a game in Serie B tells far more that a highlight reel.

And Mariner says nothing about a DP.

[Pookie]

Totally agree. I'm amazed at how often season seat holders who pay lots of good money for their tickets say "Ah well, it's a rebuilding year, so I've written it off."

That's ridiculous to me in this league. This is one of the few instances that parity can help a struggling team along: if you make the right moves, you can salvage your season in 10 games or less.



I don't disagree with you. It's been demonstrated a few times that teams can turn it around in a short period of time.

The question is how much of a turn around is realistic.

My issue is with those that dump on the team after every loss and look for the negative. They claim they want progress which appears to mean "perfection."

Objectively, the team went 0-2-4 in April. They went 1-2-2 in May. Of course, buried in there is that Philly stinker in May but also a road draw against the league champs and a CCL road draw against the team that beat us earlier in the year 4-2.

That is progress. It was done without the benefit of a transfer window from April through end of May and included a major trade and the puzzling JDG still on the roster.

Games in hand aside, TFC are 3 points out of a playoff spot.

Granted it isn't worst to first progress. Aside from the NYRBs whose progress last year set an MLS record, meaning no other team did it before to that extent, progression from worst to first isn't as common as one might think.

Also worth noting is that the NYRBs did nothing in the playoffs meaning that rocketing up the standings themselves shouldn't be our measuring stick. Qualifying for the playoffs, in the MLS, means that every team has a shot. We are 3 points from that goal with 17 games to play.

Set fair expectations and support the team accordingly.

[scooter]

agree with all of the above

but we have no choice but to be patient they are rebuilding there is a cap and all we can hope for is they care about the team enough and sign a defender and striker soon

if they dont then bmo field will need a new team to pay the rent

[TFCin110]

It's absolutely rediculous for people to expect this team to be successful in the short amount of time that Winter and de Klerk have been here. Whenever a regime change happens it gets worse before it gets better. I knew this would be a tough year. They need time to bring in their own players and implement their system. And, before someone jumps down my throat, yes I realize this league has parity. However, if they played a 4-4-2 or another common tactical system we could bring in any player they wanted and put him into the lineup and hope it works out. We've been that route. A 4-3-3 needs players that are composed, comfortable on the ball, and can effectively use the options presented to them.

I am sure they have players in mind and I am sure Dan Gargan, Nathan Sturgis, Jacob Petersen, and some of the other garbage on this roster, that was here when they took over, was not what they had in mind. Think about how many central defenders there are in North America or the lower levels of European, S. American, Asian, etc. leagues that are extremely comfortable on the ball and can play it out of the back by taking a touch to get around a striker to get some time. Not too many.

This brings me to where we are headed. We are building these kinds of players in the academy. So, I will judge Winter and de Klerk in 2 or 3 years when our junior academy lads are on the cusp of breaking into the first team.....hopefully they are skinning teams....and hopefully it will be the start of something good.

[Juanito]

The problem here is that if they don't start winning, they run the risk of turning TFC into the Blizzard .... a team no one cared about it regardless of how well they did. You have to factor this into the equation as well.

[brad]

It's absolutely rediculous for people to expect this team to be successful in the short amount of time that Winter and de Klerk have been here. Whenever a regime change happens it gets worse before it gets better.

It's not when you consider the fact that Backe turned NY around in the same amount of time.

I don't think Winter and de Klerk could have turned this bunch into a high quality team in this time, but I do think that they should be doing a lot better than they are. I'd expect them to be putting out a team at least on par with the previous seasons. Those were all pretty bad teams, so this is not a high bar to expect.

And actually, often there is a period of strong results immediately following a regime change. They can drop off after that though.


I knew this would be a tough year. They need time to bring in their own players and implement their system. And, before someone jumps down my throat, yes I realize this league has parity. However, if they played a 4-4-2 or another common tactical system we could bring in any player they wanted and put him into the lineup and hope it works out. We've been that route. A 4-3-3 needs players that are composed, comfortable on the ball, and can effectively use the options presented to them.

This is the problem I have with what is going on right now, and so do a lot of other folks.

Adherence to a 4-3-3 without the right players to play it, and even proceeding with 4-3-3 in the first place. Focus shouldn't be on a particular tactical system, it should be on a tactical system that you can implement and get results with. My theory on the whole thing is that MLSE decided they wanted to play attractive attacking football, and they were sold the 4-3-3 bill of goods. Now it's 4-3-3 or bust.

If wewant to go 4-3-3 in the long term, that's fine. However play the more common 4-4-2 until you get the players you need for the 4-3-3.

Some will argue that playing the 4-3-3 now is the right thing to do, as the player need to learn the system. I disagree. Play a system the players know, bring in the players you want as the season progresses, and use the offseason to work on the 4-3-3.


I am sure they have players in mind and I am sure Dan Gargan, Nathan Sturgis, Jacob Petersen, and some of the other garbage on this roster, that was here when they took over, was not what they had in mind. Think about how many central defenders there are in North America or the lower levels of European, S. American, Asian, etc. leagues that are extremely comfortable on the ball and can play it out of the back by taking a touch to get around a striker to get some time. Not too many.

The above backs up my point. Add Cann to the list - he is solid defensively (for the most part) but he also can't pass the ball out of the back. So we have most of our backline that can't pass the ball, but we are insisting on playing a tactical system based around quality distribution from the back.


This brings me to where we are headed. We are building these kinds of players in the academy. So, I will judge Winter and de Klerk in 2 or 3 years when our junior academy lads are on the cusp of breaking into the first team.....hopefully they are skinning teams....and hopefully it will be the start of something good.

Faith in the academy is dangerous. Do I expect the academy to turn out first team players? Yes. Do I expect it to turn out enough first team players to populate the entire team? Not even close. No academy is going to do that.

[brad]

The problem here is that if they don't start winning, they run the risk of turning TFC into the Blizzard .... a team no one cared about it regardless of how well they did. You have to factor this into the equation as well.

This worries me. Interest is dropping off. I think the assumption is that people will come back in droves once we start winning. It may be, but I'm not so sure.

[Roogsy]

This brings me to where we are headed. We are building these kinds of players in the academy. So, I will judge Winter and de Klerk in 2 or 3 years when our junior academy lads are on the cusp of breaking into the first team.....hopefully they are skinning teams....and hopefully it will be the start of something good.

I have been avoiding your whinging in the post-game thread beacuse frankly, everyone else was doing a fine job of stating the obvious of how ridiculously poor our home record is and how pathetic it is to not even score against the worst team in the league. But this really is too much. This just proves that there is always someone out there willing to buy into another multi-year plan simply because the team says "this time" it's going to work with nothing to actually support such a belief. Has anyone succeeded in MLS with a 4-3-3? Has Winter ever coached at the senior level? Does anyone believe that an academy can actually produce MLS quality players in the quantity we need in 2-3 years? Give me a break.


The problem here is that if they don't start winning, they run the risk of turning TFC into the Blizzard .... a team no one cared about it regardless of how well they did. You have to factor this into the equation as well.

Thank you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. It succinctly highlights the risks of what can happen to this team. TFC had the opportunity to own this town, to be the winning team among a bunch of teams that couldn't buy themselves into the post-season. Instead it's knocked itself right back down on the pecking order above the Rock and below the Argos because of inteptitude on the pitch and in management. More and more, people are taking TFC less seriously. CTV's report tonight started with a comment about TFC's continued "futility". Yeah, that's the way to start selling out the stadium again. And nobody wants to speak about the elephant in the room, what if this new direction doesn't work? What if this magical 4-3-3 is not effective in MLS? What if the cap never allows Mariner and Winter to field the quality of team necessary to make it effective? What if we flunk out this year as we appear to be doing and then don't do much better next year? What kind of damage is being done to the TFC brand and the sport in this city?

What if we have to start from scratch again in 3 years?

Are the "positive" people on this board even willing to acknowledge this as being the potential outcome?

[Benficachop20]

It's absolutely rediculous for people to expect this team to be successful in the short amount of time that Winter and de Klerk have been here. Whenever a regime change happens it gets worse before it gets better. I knew this would be a tough year. They need time to bring in their own players and implement their system. And, before someone jumps down my throat, yes I realize this league has parity. However, if they played a 4-4-2 or another common tactical system we could bring in any player they wanted and put him into the lineup and hope it works out. We've been that route. A 4-3-3 needs players that are composed, comfortable on the ball, and can effectively use the options presented to them.

I am sure they have players in mind and I am sure Dan Gargan, Nathan Sturgis, Jacob Petersen, and some of the other garbage on this roster, that was here when they took over, was not what they had in mind. Think about how many central defenders there are in North America or the lower levels of European, S. American, Asian, etc. leagues that are extremely comfortable on the ball and can play it out of the back by taking a touch to get around a striker to get some time. Not too many.

This brings me to where we are headed. We are building these kinds of players in the academy. So, I will judge Winter and de Klerk in 2 or 3 years when our junior academy lads are on the cusp of breaking into the first team.....hopefully they are skinning teams....and hopefully it will be the start of something good.

well i hope u enjoy watching this shit because the way it's going we are just continue to get even worse in the coming seasons.

[Pookie]

I have been avoiding your whinging in the post-game thread ...



Aside from the views in your post, if one of the objectives in our Charter is to:
" ... encourage membership in the Red Patch Boys and participation in its events..."

... is hammering away at a registered user who feels positive about the team really the way you want to go here?

There are many critical issues that we need to bring forward to the league as they directly impact the health of the league and our beloved franchise. All of which relate to the perceived incompetence of our current Owner-Operator.

Having a strong, united voice is the only way to accomplish that. We can puff our chests all we want but the facts are that collectively, we represent less than 2% of TFC's fan base. We need numbers, unified numbers, in order to be taken seriously.

I'd ask you to think about that, particularly as a long standing member with a solid reputation and moderator of this site.

[Chevy]

The system is the foundation, we must stand behind our vision. It is a great system that is attractive. We must let the flower bloom....ive stated before, I will give Winter and Mariner until May 2012 then I will review my position....until then I fully stand behind our vision.

A little mushy with the flower bloom comment, but very well said! :)

The club hasn't been run properly, we all know that. There has been a trend of mismangement, we know that too. Those that feel this will never, ever change should really move on with their lives (and many have). No shame there, life's too short. As I say nearly every game to the village heckler-idiot in 110, "why do you pay good money to watch something you hate?"

There's nothing wrong with criticism and debate, however there are many on this board that go to great lengths to stamp out any form of optimism. I say stay the course, it will make the good times that much sweeter.

[Macksam]

Faith in the academy is dangerous. Do I expect the academy to turn out first team players? Yes. Do I expect it to turn out enough first team players to populate the entire team? Not even close. No academy is going to do that.
Definately not 2 or 3 years. Probably 7 to 10 years when the system is truly fleshed out.

[rocker]

Totally agree. I'm amazed at how often season seat holders who pay lots of good money for their tickets say "Ah well, it's a rebuilding year, so I've written it off."


Yes, nobody should ever write off an MLS season this early, especially the people who don't like Winter or his style or who think TFC hasn't progressed enough yet.

I've watched MLS since 2007 and every year you see teams that do things like this:

1) have a very slow start and come on strong (see Dallas and Houston in the past)
2) sign a DP at mid season and go from crap to decent (Chicago)
3) sneak into the playoffs at the last second (Colorado, RSL)

Who knows, maybe TFC will end up at the bottom of the table and the critics will be right. But that's an assessment best made at year's end.

[Pachuco]

It's absolutely rediculous for people to expect this team to be successful in the short amount of time that Winter and de Klerk have been here. Whenever a regime change happens it gets worse before it gets better. I knew this would be a tough year. They need time to bring in their own players and implement their system. And, before someone jumps down my throat, yes I realize this league has parity. However, if they played a 4-4-2 or another common tactical system we could bring in any player they wanted and put him into the lineup and hope it works out. We've been that route. A 4-3-3 needs players that are composed, comfortable on the ball, and can effectively use the options presented to them.

I am sure they have players in mind and I am sure Dan Gargan, Nathan Sturgis, Jacob Petersen, and some of the other garbage on this roster, that was here when they took over, was not what they had in mind. Think about how many central defenders there are in North America or the lower levels of European, S. American, Asian, etc. leagues that are extremely comfortable on the ball and can play it out of the back by taking a touch to get around a striker to get some time. Not too many.

This brings me to where we are headed. We are building these kinds of players in the academy. So, I will judge Winter and de Klerk in 2 or 3 years when our junior academy lads are on the cusp of breaking into the first team.....hopefully they are skinning teams....and hopefully it will be the start of something good.

Mariner expects it, and that's good enough for me. I think it's absolutely ridicolous that you are waiting to see how Academy kids do before you judge Mariner and Winter. What's even more ridicolous is that you think it takes 2 years to groom an Academy player.

[tiberius]

... Has anyone succeeded in MLS with a 4-3-3? Has Winter ever coached at the senior level? ...

We knew the answers to these questions before the season started. You have (rightly) pointed out these two (of many) big challenges to this year... Given the above challenges, we need to let this team management find their way - you gotta allow a fair number of mistakes if Winter et. al are going to turn into seasoned MLS coaching material...


... It succinctly highlights the risks of what can happen to this team... ... More and more, people are taking TFC less seriously. CTV's report tonight started with a comment about TFC's continued "futility"... ... what if this new direction doesn't work? What if this magical 4-3-3 is not effective in MLS?... What if the cap... What if we flunk out... What if we have to start from scratch...

Are the "positive" people on this board even willing to acknowledge this as being the potential outcome?


I think we all hear you - the spectre of TFC turning into the Toronto Blizzard is a possibility and it would break all of our hearts. But getting all bent out of shape, this early in Winter's first season, and urging quick fixes, and beating up < too much ;-) > on Winter because he is a rookie coach, making rookie mistakes, just doesn't cut it. Whether we play a 4-3-3 or not, is hardly going to address the accumulated damage of four year of Mo + MLSE and last year's Preki disaster, or the Season Ticket renewal debacle that awaits this team this fall.

I hear and feel your utter frustration roogsy - the hard part is figuring out where to channel the angst - it is just too early to turn on Winter et. al.

You really need to change your perspective on the value of the Season Ticket renewal debacle that will come this fall. This will be a good thing - almost everyone on the RPB forum agrees that money is the absolutely only communication that works with Tommy A. and MLSE. Some quick fix turnaround now that gives a bump to attendance or fall season ticket renewal is actually NOT in the long term best interest of this club!

[/quote]

[Beach_Red]

^ five years in and we have to wait and see if the guys the consultant they hired recommended turn into, "seasoned MLS coaching material"?

Sure, why would we have even thought they might have atually hired seasoned coaching material? It's TFC where you get to learn on the job.

[tiberius]

^ five years in and we have to wait and see if the guys the consultant they hired recommended turn into, "seasoned MLS coaching material"?

Sure, why would we have even thought they might have atually hired seasoned coaching material? It's TFC where you get to learn on the job.

Both Mo and Preki were actually hired for their previous MLS experience - hows that working out for yah? I'm sure going to the MLS well again would work out great... what are you relying on? The "close your eyes, third time lucky" approach? :picard: Sure lets get another MLS coach... there is such a bountiful crop of great MLS Coaches that want to come to Toronto - Carumba - how did we miss picking one of them up last winter? (no pun intended)

If the rookie coach was a problem for folk, they should have worked it out of their system in Jan/Feb/March. You can't blame Winter for being a rookie... that is just a fact, adjust your expectations. Blame Anselmi for that one if you must get your knickers in a twist!

To bring a European over to be head coach for the first time probably requires a good year of adjustment, particularly since he was brought in to a dog's breakfast. Expecting fast miracles from this hire is utterly unrealistic.

[Roogsy]

Mo had experience? LOL

I guess Ruud Gullit doesn't count among your "European" coaches. LOL

BTW a "European" coach. CAN be a successful choice. While Gullit was a bad experience, Backe seems to have been a good one so far. The point is that the "year" of adjustment wasn't necessary in either case to know whether you picked right or not.

This argument that people are expecting "fast miracles" is a farce. Its an argument of extremes. Nobody wanted world-beaters but there is no plausible argument I have seen that proves any team retooling needs to suck ass as well. That is just giving MLSE a ready-made excuse.

[Beach_Red]

Yes, and no one ever says we should "adjust our expectations" when it comes to Mo and Preki. Maybe if they adjusted prices to go along with our expectations.

What we have to accept is that the people doing the hiring can't research candidates for the jobs themselves and can't judge how well the job is being done. They accept this, too, and hired a consultant.

MLSE could poach like Seattle did, or they could spend some money and bring in someone who has run a team before, not a consultant who works for a few weeks.

All I'm really asking is that they take TFC as seriously as they do their restaurant or their condo business - is there any chance the manager of Real Sports has never run a restaurant before and is learning on the job? You can be sure the waiters had to have more experience than Mo did to get their jobs. Has any architect been hired to design one
of their condos who has never designed one before?

Usually you get what you pay for but as Pookie has pointed out, we pay near the top of the league and we get on the job training.

So, yeah, I guess we need to adjust our expectations. TFC is an entry-level position for management.

[Roogsy]

And they could have had a DP at the beginning of the season like half-a-sozen other teams did instead of looking to bring one in after the season is out of reach. Knowing there were going to be difficulties (which we all acknowledge is an obvious consequence of the changes enacted during the off-season) there were no measures taken to mitigate the effect of the disruption. Instead, the fans once again are asked to be patient while the team makes promises of a better future they can't possibly guarantee. It puts the burden on the fan and places little or no accountability on the front office. Something we should have learned to demand after the experience of our last regime.

[Roogsy]

Yes, and no one ever says we should "adjust our expectations" when it comes to Mo and Preki. Maybe if they adjusted prices to go along with our expectations.

What we have to accept is that the people doing the hiring can't research candidates for the jobs themselves and can't judge how well the job is being done. They accept this, too, and hired a consultant.

MLSE could poach like Seattle did, or they could spend some money and bring in someone who has run a team before, not a consultant who works for a few weeks.

All I'm really asking is that they take TFC as seriously as they do their restaurant or their condo business - is there any chance the manager of Real Sports has never run a restaurant before and is learning on the job? You can be sure the waiters had to have more experience than Mo did to get their jobs. Has any architect been hired to design one
of their condos who has never designed one before?

Usually you get what you pay for but as Pookie has pointed out, we pay near the top of the league and we get on the job training.

So, yeah, I guess we need to adjust our expectations. TFC is an entry-level position for management.

QFFT...

[Chevy]

The system is the foundation, we must stand behind our vision. It is a great system that is attractive. We must let the flower bloom....ive stated before, I will give Winter and Mariner until May 2012 then I will review my position....until then I fully stand behind our vision.

+1 .

[J .]

Both Mo and Preki were actually hired for their previous MLS experience - hows that working out for yah? I'm sure going to the MLS well again would work out great... what are you relying on? The "close your eyes, third time lucky" approach? :picard: Sure lets get another MLS coach... there is such a bountiful crop of great MLS Coaches that want to come to Toronto - Carumba - how did we miss picking one of them up last winter? (no pun intended)

If the rookie coach was a problem for folk, they should have worked it out of their system in Jan/Feb/March. You can't blame Winter for being a rookie... that is just a fact, adjust your expectations. Blame Anselmi for that one if you must get your knickers in a twist!

To bring a European over to be head coach for the first time probably requires a good year of adjustment, particularly since he was brought in to a dog's breakfast. Expecting fast miracles from this hire is utterly unrealistic.

How about expecting not to be embarrassed or go into each game with with the very distinct possibility if the other team scores early your side will get routed before half?

I dont think most people had unrealistic expectations, I for one, thought this team would be MLS worst, Ive said that since January and I am sadly so far correct.

Most people I talked to thought we would be competitive. That is not unrealistic.

[tiberius]

... Nobody wanted world-beaters but there is no plausible argument I have seen that proves any team retooling needs to suck ass as well. That is just giving MLSE a ready-made excuse.

You are right.

The thing is, MLSE and TFC FO don't need any excuses, nor would I accept any foolish crap spin from them anyway. They have an announced (almost all paid) attendance of 18K-20K a game when the product is extremely underwhelming, to put it mildly ... hard to apply much "pressure" when the bucks keep rolling in... Who feel like idiots here? Them or us? They have our money, and we bought a low quality product. I certainly knew I was buying a Walmart product this year, didn't you? Or did you really think you were buying from the Bay, Sears or Nieman Marcus? You may have paid Nieman Marcus pricing, but all of the cards have been on the table about this team, since late last summer... I am unclear - are you telling us MLSE and Tommy A. fooled you again???


And they could have had a DP at the beginning of the season... ...Instead, the fans once again are asked to be patient while the team makes promises of a better future they can't possibly guarantee. It puts the burden on the fan and places little or no accountability on the front office. Something we should have learned to demand after the experience of our last regime.

100% Agreement.

Winter et al could have succumbed to pressure for a March DP, but kinda risky don't you think - from past experience? Rushing this big ticket move, when chances of DP success in the MLS are mixed at best, hardly speaks of long term thinking and could screw up Winter's ability to be successful down the road. Let these guys shop for the best DP or two (or three!) that they can get, between now and the start of next season.

Either we get some new players in, in the next few weeks, and things pick up dramatically, or the season is in the dumpster and MLSE will get the wake up call at season renewal time. Either way, we win.

A very poor season ticket uptake in September would be the very first time in FIVE long years, that the supporter and fan base ACTUALLY holds MLSE and Tommy A. accountable for what they have done, in terms that they understand. Tommy A. was saved from complete embarassment by having a reasonable waiting list to bail him out last September. Threatening to not renew your season tickets has not and will not be enough to leverage the change that is needed. I really wish they could be held accountable sooner than September, but that is just wishful thinking - there is very little, if any, leverage anybody has, when paid attendance is still as high as it is this year...

Tommy A. is playing without a safety net this year and he will only be held accountable, for all of these years, for all of the mistakes, for all of the arrogance when he falls hard on the ground at ticket renewal time.

[tiberius]

Yes, and no one ever says we should "adjust our expectations" when it comes to Mo and Preki. Maybe if they adjusted prices to go along with our expectations.

Your expectations are high, so the ticket price is high. :)




All I'm really asking is that they take TFC as seriously as they do their restaurant or their condo business...

Here is the thing - they are running it like their restaurant/condo business. The TFC diner/condo is still raking in lots of upfront cash, lots of units sold, and plenty of profit. So... they will be focusing their efforts right now, on some other diner/condo that is losing money right now (think Raptors). In October of 2011, if the TFC Condo starts leaking cash, some attention/accountability will swing around to the Toronto FC condo... until then, everyone might as well take a nap!

[Pookie]

^ to use your analogy, the condos residents are paying the fees this year but there are lots of for-sale signs.

Even worse, there is limited to no traffic during the open houses. That should cause the management company to raise their eyebrows.

I see this as our biggest issue as supporters of Toronto FC. We can debate how to win but IMO, winning does not impact our disposable incomes.

Some folks are willing to pay $125 to see Beckham. That's a one off as was the "novelty". We cannot support a team over the course of a season at the current prices.

And here's the thing, with MLS revenue sharing AND the fact that TFC subsidized the league at 2007-08 price levels, we shouldn't have to be subjected to these prices.

[tiberius]

^ to use your analogy, the condos residents are paying the fees this year but there are lots of for-sale signs.

Even worse, there is limited to no traffic during the open houses. That should cause the management company to raise their eyebrows.

I see this as our biggest issue as supporters of Toronto FC. We can debate how to win but IMO, winning does not impact our disposable incomes.

Some folks are willing to pay $125 to see Beckham. That's a one off as was the "novelty". We cannot support a team over the course of a season at the current prices.

And here's the thing, with MLS revenue sharing AND the fact that TFC subsidized the league at 2007-08 price levels, we shouldn't have to be subjected to these prices.

Totally agree, the tickets prices and demand are the bottom line issue - the value for money - Some want to improve things by raising the "value" side of the equation right now, or in the next month or two. I believe we should fix the pricing issue in October first, then move on to the value issues that have not been addressed...

[Beach_Red]

^ to use your analogy, the condos residents are paying the fees this year but there are lots of for-sale signs.

Even worse, there is limited to no traffic during the open houses. That should cause the management company to raise their eyebrows.

I see this as our biggest issue as supporters of Toronto FC. We can debate how to win but IMO, winning does not impact our disposable incomes.

Some folks are willing to pay $125 to see Beckham. That's a one off as was the "novelty". We cannot support a team over the course of a season at the current prices.

And here's the thing, with MLS revenue sharing AND the fact that TFC subsidized the league at 2007-08 price levels, we shouldn't have to be
subjected to these prices.

Yes, I agree with you, but I do want to say that winning does affect our disposable income. Or really, the term we should use is discrectionary income - the money we spend on non-essentials. We rank those non-essentials (at least I do, I can't afford everything I want ;)) and tickets to see TFC will rise and fall on that list for some people depending on how well they are doing.

There are probably a lot of people in Toronto who had to chose between tickets to the Jays and tickets to TFC and for a couple years chose TFC and have now moved back to the Jays. If TFC got better some of those people might move back.

For a few years there the only way to guarantee a ticket to every game was to have season tickets so that also increased the value (but not the cost) of the tickets. That extra value is gone now but it may return someday.

[Pachuco]

Yes, I agree with you, but I do want to say that winning does affect our disposable income. Or really, the term we should use is discrectionary income - the money we spend on non-essentials. We rank those non-essentials (at least I do, I can't afford everything I want ;)) and tickets to see TFC will rise and fall on that list for some people depending on how well they are doing.

There are probably a lot of people in Toronto who had to chose between tickets to the Jays and tickets to TFC and for a couple years chose TFC and have now moved back to the Jays. If TFC got better some of those people might move back.

For a few years there the only way to guarantee a ticket to every game was to have season tickets so that also increased the value (but not the cost) of the tickets. That extra value is gone now but it may return someday.

I agree, and I can speak for myself. If TFC didn't play worst then my Rep team ever did then I wouldn't even be considering letting go of my tickets. My brother in law let his tickets go last year and instead has a membership to a Golf Course now. I personally would probably go away on an all inclusive new renewal time if I don't end up renewing. This has everything to do with the product on the field for me, and I know people around the stadium that I've talked to share the same sentiment.

Toronto can 100% afford to support this team at these prices, but not when the product on the field is as bad as it is.

[tfc2008]

Maeple Leafs can play every night worst, Acc sold out. Why they like hockey, good are bad.
The so called (TFC Fans) cry and cry and drink beer and beer (so cheap) and cry about the tickets.
Dont buy tickets and play cricket are something els cryers

[Pachuco]

Maeple Leafs can play every night worst, Acc sold out. Why they like hockey, good are bad.
The so called (TFC Fans) cry and cry and drink beer and beer (so cheap) and cry about the tickets.
Dont buy tickets and play cricket are something els cryers

It's obvious you've never been on a Leaf's forum. And it's obvious you don't understand the demographic of the people that buy seats to a Leaf's game....or should I say, corporations.

[ilikemusic]

Maeple Leafs can play every night worst, Acc sold out. Why they like hockey, good are bad.
The so called (TFC Fans) cry and cry and drink beer and beer (so cheap) and cry about the tickets.
Dont buy tickets and play cricket are something els cryers


It's obvious you've never been on a Leaf's forum. And it's obvious you don't understand the demographic of the people that buy seats to a Leaf's game....or should I say, corporations.

You understood that? :lol:

[Pachuco]

You understood that? :lol:

What's actually funny is he managed to make a rhyme :D

[ag futbol]

4-3-3 does not have to be ultra forward thinking... it can be relatively conservative. either way the end result is we need better players.

i hope this soolsma type crap does not repeat itself because for anyone who knows the level of this league could figure out that was never going to work.

[69Chevy396]

I am one of those season ticket holders who has lost all interest in TFC and only go to the games now because I paid for the tickets. There are so many things to do in this city, my weekends are important to me, I don't want to be miserable watching horrible soccer. I don't even care if they win or lose anymore, just give me entertaining football. Based on my experience of the last five years, I must say that this one is by far the most disappointing, I never expected the thrill to be over so soon. MLSE blew it in my view, they have done nothing right it amazes me how they can be so successful at the cashbox while delivering such bush league products. I won't be back next year, and there are many others like myself who feel the same way, that gold and red waiting list this company prides itself on will be like tumbleweed in the desert very soon.