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__wowza
05-30-2011, 02:48 PM
You know the drill folks, we're three months into the season and currently sitting 7th in the east (15th overall). We've had a rough month with 7 games in 4 short weeks, including 3 away games. Now with 33.3333% new options (aka: the Dreadlocks/Shep option).. how do you feel Winter has performed so far?

Just some guidelines:


Its how you feel at the moment, not a final assessment. Like a marathon, this is just a snapshot of our support at this point in time. A low approval rating does not rate him as an overall failure, just like a high approval rating does not mean he's Sir Alex Ferguson.
Whatever factors or metrics your feel are most important to you in the coaching position, use those to guide you.

For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in May:



W/W/L/T/T/T/L: 5 points out of a possible 15
(red text denotes NCC fixture)



Toronto FC v FC Edmonton
May 04: Win 1 - 0

Toronto FC v Houston Dynamo
May 07: Win 2 - 1

FC Dallas v Toronto FC
May 11: Loss 1 - 0

Toronto FC v Chicago Fire
May 14: Tie 2 - 2

Vancouver WC v Toronto FC
May 18: Tie 1 - 1

Colorado Rapids v Toronto FC
May 22: Tie 0 - 0

Toronto FC v Philadelphia Union
May 28: Loss 2 - 6


APRIL THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=27878

ManUtd4ever
05-30-2011, 02:56 PM
The results are obviously going to be skewed in the aftermath of our worst home defeat in franchise history.

Nontheless, I'm still on the fence.

trane
05-30-2011, 02:57 PM
I still support him, but my support is starting to be tested. I love a defensively solid teams, allowing 6 goals leaves me speachless.

P-NUTZ
05-30-2011, 03:28 PM
^ agree. but i am on the fence now because he has made some strange line up and positional choices, and the players don't appear mentally comfortable as a team to compete with any confidence or purpose. something's certainly not right psychologically.
IMO

trane
05-30-2011, 03:33 PM
^ I cannot disagree with your assessment, I think I still support him because I want to stay positive for at least a while longer, starting over once again would be a bit too much to take for me at this point.

Darlofletch
05-30-2011, 03:37 PM
I went yes.

after the seattle debacle he made changes and it kind of paid off with a string of performances that under the circumstances of the thin squad and all the games we had weren't that bad at all.

now we've had anohter debacle, so we'll see how he reacts to this, but let's face it, this is what this season's going to be all about, a series of small steps forward, with the occasional giant fall back. success will be determined by how long we can make the gap between disasters.

I agreed with the decision to rest cann, but our depth was really exposed. I'm not going to let one result take away from how we've looked better when not exhausted/shorthanded.

long way to go obviously, and I still have my doubts, but I'm still going with yes.

Don Julio
05-30-2011, 04:32 PM
I'm more on the fence than I was a week ago, but at the same time sometimes things have to get worse (i.e. 6-2 drubbing) to really show what your problems are, and push you to find solutions.

Detroit_TFC
05-30-2011, 04:51 PM
^ the two posts above are very sensible and the right way to look at things right now IMO.

DichioTFC
05-30-2011, 05:24 PM
Posting this immediately after the worst loss in TFC history and the firing of two other coaches leaves results highly skewed.

Still, I answered yes. For me, he gets a pass for the season unless he does something incredibly boneheaded.

TFCRegina
05-30-2011, 05:25 PM
Posting this immediately after the worst loss in TFC history and the firing of two other coaches leaves results highly skewed. If these aren't going to posted with regularity (Preki polls were the first of the month) make sure there's a lull in the news / schedule at least. To me, this poll puts more emphasis on measuring knee-jerk reactions rather than how we truly feel.

So that's what you mean when you say you do it for the lullz.

Nestease
05-30-2011, 05:26 PM
Interesting note that two MLS coaches have been fired today. They are one win away from TFC's record and both have played less games. They are also better than TFC so far in all the stats. Good thing TFC are committed to Winter or he'd be under some serious heat right now.


http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/4972/tablepy.jpg

DichioTFC
05-30-2011, 06:36 PM
Also, I hate the maybe option with a passion. Sitting on the fence for something as simple / straightforward as this is nonsense, it's the easy option.

The 15 (so far) who answered 'maybe' do feel slightly more one way or another, and when pressed will give a yes or no response. Giving them an easy out sucks.

ilikemusic
05-30-2011, 07:07 PM
I voted no.

Doesnt necessarily mean I think he should be fired, throwing another body onto pile of discarded coaches wont do the squad any good right now, or the club any good in the future, but I can not say that I approve of what I see on the pitch.


Also, I hate the maybe option with a passion. Sitting on the fence for something as simple / straightforward as this is nonsense, it's the easy option.

Agreed.

ManUtd4ever
05-30-2011, 07:09 PM
Also, I hate the maybe option with a passion. Sitting on the fence for something as simple / straightforward as this is nonsense, it's the easy option.

The 15 (so far) who answered 'maybe' do feel slightly more one way or another, and when pressed will give a yes or no response. Giving them an easy out sucks.

It can be rationalized that Winter has earned both positive and negative recognition based on his overall performance as Coach/Technical Director in his inaugral season thus far.

I approve of the system he is trying to implement, I approve of the majority of players he's acquired, but I don't necessarily approve of his roster management on a consistent basis.

ExiledRed
05-30-2011, 08:32 PM
I voted no.

Doesnt necessarily mean I think he should be fired, throwing another body onto pile of discarded coaches wont do the squad any good right now, or the club any good in the future.


The question is, is keeping an incompetent in charge going to be any better?

I dont want to have to do this shit over at the start of next season, and go through another year of figuring out whether we're 'rebuilding' or collapsing inward. Now is the time to pull the plug on this so called 'specialist' and this time, instead of giving some assistant a chance and waiting to see how he does for the rest of the season, start looking for an experienced 'fix it upper' immediately and tell the interim-manager that no, there isnt an opportunity to progress to full on coach.

habstfc
05-30-2011, 08:38 PM
I voted yes, Stability for a couple seasons at least.

ExiledRed
05-30-2011, 08:49 PM
I voted yes, Stability for a couple seasons at least.

Stability when you are crap is called stagnation

Brooker
05-30-2011, 08:52 PM
Can people tell this early if he's up to the job? I can't....

Beach_Red
05-30-2011, 09:12 PM
Can people tell this early if he's up to the job? I can't....

It isn't so much, him it's the job. If he'd just been hired to coach a soccer team, that would be one thing, but after the town halls, the apologies, the hiring of Klinsmann, all the talk of "culture" and systems and so on - it's reasonable to say that MLSE raised expectations and haven't come close to meeting them or even showing much in the way that they will be met.

Is it too soon? Realistically, maybe, but after all their talk and hype, no.

Winter, like so many before him here, will be the scapegoat.

ExiledRed
05-30-2011, 09:13 PM
Can people tell this early if he's up to the job? I can't....

This should have been a qualification, not something we have to wait two seasons to figure out.

All signs point to no, by the way.

ExiledRed
05-30-2011, 09:25 PM
Winter, like so many before him here, will be the scapegoat.

Not really, he's come here with a full understanding of the fan's frustration and the goal to immediately improve the situation, and yet he's basically stunk. He's either underestimated the league or overestimated his own abilities or both.

He shouldnt be given the convenient title of 'scapegoat' when he's bought nothing to the table but rigid adherence to a well studied system thats hard to implement, easy to beat, getting us nowhere and about as entertaining as Dharma and Greg reruns.

Davenport
05-30-2011, 09:35 PM
Anyone who can choose Harden and Gargan to start is not a manager I can have a lot of faith in.
I want to give him a chance but so far he's not convinced me.
His new signings have not been impressive. Either he thinks that anyone from Europe can compete in this league or he's no spotter of talent.

Beach_Red
05-30-2011, 09:35 PM
^ Pkay, maybe scapegoat isn't the right word. Maybe front man is a better way to put it. But do you think when Klinsmann called him and offered him the job Winter really knew the state of the FO? And do you think he has a lot of flexibility to make changes to the "system" tne consultant decided they should use?

habstfc
05-30-2011, 09:36 PM
MLS is like junior b hockey of the soccer world. I don't think you need a coach with an oustanding coaching past to coach here. MLSE hired a consulting firm for advice and this is what we got. Winter isn't going anywhere (unless he resigns).

rocktml
05-30-2011, 09:41 PM
Is there some kind of list of all the free agents for junes transfer window?

ExiledRed
05-30-2011, 10:15 PM
MLS is like junior b hockey of the soccer world. I don't think you need a coach with an oustanding coaching past to coach here. MLSE hired a consulting firm for advice and this is what we got. Winter isn't going anywhere (unless he resigns).

Bollocks, TFC needs an MLS coach with notable experience to help it through some big problems that other teams arent having.

Also, its a tough league that requires extra understanding of a unique trading system that doesnt exist in other leagues. Its not a sunday job.

Theres no evidence that Klinsmann could do well coaching a team in this league either, I might add.

ensco
05-30-2011, 10:30 PM
Also, its a tough league that requires extra understanding of a unique trading system that doesnt exist in other leagues. Its not a sunday job.



That's the least of it. The cap/DP system is complex and requires a real feel. The summer calendar makes player acquisition more complex, and means you lose players more often for international callups. Lastly, you have to have a feel for evaluating NCAA talent, which doesn't look like the youth backbone you see in most leagues (NCAA guys are not 19 year old kids, and have very little flair).

tiberius
05-30-2011, 10:32 PM
Not really, he's come here with a full understanding of the fan's frustration and the goal to immediately improve the situation, and yet he's basically stunk. He's either underestimated the league or overestimated his own abilities or both.


Utter and complete rubbish! The goal WAS NOT to immediately improve the situation - that is your shortsighted dream/wish. The goals were long term - think three years, build a vision, build a complimentary team, build a style of play, strengthen an academy system that compliments and feeds the MLS team. Most of all, try to clean up 4 years of absolute crap that has accumulated in this organization.

Winter et al. are on there way to improving the team and shaping it - give it time. This is quite a (stinky and thankless) job to do, and anybody who won't give him until next spring to succeed in turning this titanic around is just not being realistic about the heavy lifting required for the job at hand, especially with the salary cap and other personel restrictions.

If at this point next year we have 12 points I will be the first to say "off with his head!" in the mean time we need to back off and chill a bit.

The fact that Harden and Gargan start a couple of games and blow it shouldn't take our long term vision too far off course here... - having the supporter groups climb up Winter's ass because he played Harden/Gargan is understandable, but also laughable. After us putting up with Garcia, the ultimate player in the MLS for finding new and creative ways to get the ball into the Toronto net, we really shouldn't get too upset by the occassional flub by Harden and Gargan - they can only bow down to Garcia - the grandmaster!

ExiledRed
05-30-2011, 10:43 PM
Utter and complete rubbish! The goal WAS NOT to immediately improve the situation - that is your shortsighted dream/wish. The goals were long term - think three years, build a vision, build a complimentary team, build a style of play, strengthen an academy system that compliments and feeds the MLS team. Most of all, try to clean up 4 years of absolute crap that has accumulated in this organization.

Winter et al. are on there way to improving the team and shaping it - give it time. This is quite a (stinky and thankless) job to do, and anybody who won't give him until next spring to succeed in turning this titanic around is just not being realistic about the heavy lifting required for the job at hand, especially with the salary cap and other personel restrictions.

If at this point next year we have 12 points I will be the first to say "off with his head!" in the mean time we need to back off and chill a bit.

The fact that Harden and Gargan start a couple of games and blow it shouldn't take our long term vision too far off course here... - having the supporter groups climb up Winter's ass because he played Harden/Gargan is understandable, but also laughable. After us putting up with Garcia, the ultimate player in the MLS for finding new and creative ways to get the ball into the Toronto net, we really shouldn't get too upset by the occassional flub by Harden and Gargan - they can only bow down to Garcia - the grandmaster!

Sorry my bad, the goal wasn't to do something about flagging support, dropping ticket sales, abysmal results and unentertaining football, it was to develop an intangible concept over an ambiguous period of time and build something called a 'culture'?

Expecting a new coach to be able to well....coach is a shortsighted dream? give me a fricking break. This guy is blowing smoke, and so are all you people talking about football culture and long term systems that take years to properly implement.

Wake the fuck up, were a franchise team in MLS. Were five years old. The only 'culture' this team is ever going to have is walking out the stadium in droves.

tiberius
05-30-2011, 11:07 PM
Sorry my bad, the goal wasn't to do something about flagging support, dropping ticket sales, abysmal results and unentertaining football, it was to develop an intangible concept over an ambiguous period of time and build something called a 'culture'?

Expecting a new coach to be able to well....coach is a shortsighted dream? give me a fricking break. This guy is blowing smoke, and so are all you people talking about football culture and long term systems that take years to properly implement.

Wake the fuck up, were a franchise team in MLS. Were five years old. The only 'culture' this team is ever going to have is walking out the stadium in droves.

You wake up - the 4 years of crap have nothing to do with Winter - he only received this team in the middle of winter ;-) The "culture" and most of the fans walked out of the stadium a couple of years ago - where have you been rip van winkle? I don't care if MLSE takes a complete and utter soaking in ticket sales and ST sales for next year - THAT IS THE ONLY THING THEY UNDERSTAND. We should all be praying that MLSE takes it in the ear this September with 4000 renewals - that might wake people up - that might get Tommy A. a promotion to somewhere else!

The situation at the end of four years was an total utter fucking mess. You really think any new coaching team coming in after Christmas is going to work a miracle. Me wake up? You dream on!

You want another Mista quick fix - knock yourself out.

Brooker
05-30-2011, 11:09 PM
This should have been a qualification, not something we have to wait two seasons to figure out.

All signs point to no, by the way.

Lol well you may have a point but I never meant he should be given 2 whole seasons.

ExiledRed
05-31-2011, 12:11 AM
The situation at the end of four years was an total utter fucking mess. You really think any new coaching team coming in after Christmas is going to work a miracle. Me wake up? You dream on!

You want another Mista quick fix - knock yourself out.

You see, now you're getting all confrontational and thats fine, but dont get surprised when i give it back some, is all.

If you think the situation right now is improved, at all, from the apparrent 'total fucking mess' it was in when Winter arrived, you have your head up your ass.

Nobody asked for a miracle bud, nobody's pissed that we arent dominating the league, nobody expected to come out the gate flying this year so take your extreme viewpoint and well...do something with it.

My problem is that Winter appears to be a spineless, characterless and uninspiring coach who arrived with a page of excuses already written, has made tactical decisons which are just baffling, makes surreal player selections, politicks on the field, makes excuses for his mistakes and ummms and errrrrs his way out of any difficult questions from the media.

He doesnt approach games individually, he seems unprepared for the teams he's facing and unaware of the players that can cause us problems. He flogs the 4-3-3 with the wrong players, doesnt change it up even when its failing hard and doesnt adapt. All the while other coaches have sussed him and his system out completely and are predicting his every move.

Developing this "we are a team that plays 4-3-3 and follows a dutch style of play" mantra, without any reason other than Jurgen Klinsman, who's never coached in the MLS and never lived in Toronto, thinks its a good idea, and THEN getting an inexperienced coach to implement this system, because he's dutch and worked as an assistant at ajax once, is just comical. Its not only putting the cart before the horse, its building a city twenty miles away so that it has somewhere to go.

TFCREDNWHITE
05-31-2011, 12:34 AM
Im with Winter! The absolute worst worst worst thing we can do is fire Winter, we must give winter another year and a half!

ExiledRed
05-31-2011, 12:57 AM
Im with Winter! The absolute worst worst worst thing we can do is fire Winter, we must give winter another year and a half!

Do we continue this line of thinking until the 18 months is up, or is there a point before this where we can realistically assess that the objective is not going to be met.

For instance, I commission you to paint me, and I give you two weeks to finish it.

I see outlines of Donald Duck on the third day, ask about it, and you say 'i am just working with the paints and reorganising my picture, i need the full two weeks!'.

If on day five donald duck is now sporting a red goatee beard and wearing a tfc scarf, im going to cut that two weeks short.

Shakes McQueen
05-31-2011, 01:49 AM
Do we continue this line of thinking until the 18 months is up, or is there a point before this where we can realistically assess that the objective is not going to be met.

For instance, I commission you to paint me, and I give you two weeks to finish it.

I see outlines of Donald Duck on the third day, ask about it, and you say 'i am just working with the paints and reorganising my picture, i need the full two weeks!'.

If on day five donald duck is now sporting a red goatee beard and wearing a tfc scarf, im going to cut that two weeks short.

Completely inapplicable analogy for the situation.

- Scott

DichioTFC
05-31-2011, 02:09 AM
To anyone who voted that they don't approve of Winter, a simple question:

What were your expectations of the team prior to the season beginning? Mine was to be competitive and continuous improvement. Other than one shitshow, the squad has been more or less competitive and the improvement is clear (shitshow aside).

TFCRegina
05-31-2011, 02:14 AM
To anyone who voted that they don't approve of Winter, a simple question:

What were your expectations of the team prior to the season beginning? Mine was to be competitive and continuous improvement. Other than one shitshow, the squad has been more or less competitive and the improvement is clear (shitshow aside).

Vancouver Away, DC United Home, Chicago Home (draw), Chivas USA Home (draw), Seattle Away, and of course, Philly Home.

I think there's been more than one shitshow.

I don't approve of the job winter has done because he's been very inflexible and keeps putting out bizarre lineups. I also don't like the management of players at TFC (that might be Mariner or others). I'm not calling for his firing, but I am not saying he's doing a good job.

Roogsy
05-31-2011, 02:39 AM
To anyone who voted that they don't approve of Winter, a simple question:

What were your expectations of the team prior to the season beginning? Mine was to be competitive and continuous improvement. Other than one shitshow, the squad has been more or less competitive and the improvement is clear (shitshow aside).

You see this is where I disagree. To me the problem isn't the point total either. Its how we've been ouitclassed in so many games. The way we've been outcoached. The way we've been blown out in more than 1. I didn't need to be top of the league to be happy but like I said at the beginning of the season, I will not accept being the joke of the league under the guise of being in a "rebuild". That is simply not necessary. You say we've been competitive and improving? I say we've been no such thing and the proof is on the pitch.

DichioTFC
05-31-2011, 03:22 AM
Fair enough, there have been multiple shitshows. Still, to me, these are the growing pains of a rebuild, in every match there have been positives. Even last blowout, we could have potentially seen the greatest comeback in TFC history had Frei's pass hit a Red.

We have been outclassed early in the season, but I think the team's confidence level started to improve and we were beginning to hit our stride. The last league match prior to the blowout was a competitive draw against the league champs in their park, a vast improvement beyond the first match of the season. Our next match should be a clear win, but the June 18 match against the Galaxy will be the true litmus test for this team. If we can get another road draw or better, we'll have officially turned the corner in my opinion. Roogsy is right that we've been outclassed, but I don't know if we've been outcoached per se... like Winter said, the system does not account for individual mistakes.

Cashcleaner
05-31-2011, 04:59 AM
Also, I hate the maybe option with a passion. Sitting on the fence for something as simple / straightforward as this is nonsense, it's the easy option.

The 15 (so far) who answered 'maybe' do feel slightly more one way or another, and when pressed will give a yes or no response. Giving them an easy out sucks.

I completely disagree. Myself, I'm on the fence - but it simply means I haven't made up my mind yet. Yeah, I guess it's not a straight 50/50 split between approving and disproving for me and I am leaning a bit one way, but I'm not going to throw my support one way or another without thinking things over here.

Also, TFCRegina is bang-on. We've had more than just one shitshow this year. Let's be honest and admit that our record is very indicative of our current level of skill and talent which is 12 points out of 13 games and a goal differential of -10.

denime
05-31-2011, 06:04 AM
Do we continue this line of thinking until the 18 months is up, or is there a point before this where we can realistically assess that the objective is not going to be met.


If by mid July 2012 TFC is not in solid playoff position Winter will be in trouble,until than he is safe and can concatenate on his job first and foremost.

You already reached the point and want him gone,others will wait a bit longer and give him a fair chance.

Beach_Red
05-31-2011, 06:28 AM
To anyone who voted that they don't approve of Winter, a simple question:

What were your expectations of the team prior to the season beginning? Mine was to be competitive and continuous improvement. Other than one shitshow, the squad has been more or less competitive and the improvement is clear (shitshow aside).

I admit when Klinsmann was hired I expected something big, a major DP signing that would change the character and direction of the team. A Dichio, something like that.

JuliquE
05-31-2011, 07:06 AM
If by mid July 2012 TFC is not in solid playoff position Winter will be in trouble,until than he is safe and can concatenate on his job first and foremost.

You already reached the point and want him gone,others will wait a bit longer and give him a fair chance.
Doesn't the transfer window open at mid-July; wouldn't we need to allow for a month or so to, first, sign the players and then integrate them?

** * **

Winter has had a real challenge in taking the reigns when he did, as there was still unsettled issues with a few players and poisoned relationships. I think he would have wanted to keep DeRo, but maybe that was never really an option (past repair, after everything).

With all he's been through, straight out the gate since being hired, I feel like Winter has done reasonably well. I don't feel it's been good enough and I hope we start to see things pick up, peaking around the summer.. instead of our usual slump.

Voted "yes."

Pookie
05-31-2011, 07:08 AM
All the debate around coaches or line ups is interesting. Recognize though that it plays right into the hands of MLSE.

We spend all this time building up/tearing down Winter's decisions we lose focus on the fact that Tom Anselmi is still the head of this organization and whether Winter gets an extension or is replaced, that person will ultimately report into Tom Anselmi.

A leader who needed a consultant to tell him what to think which is fine except that the consultant is now no longer involved.

A leader whose organization has priced out a loyal ticket holder base. A collective group which subsidized the league through revenue sharing at 2008 prices and a weak Canadian dollar.

A leader who mistakenly appears to believe that if the team starts winning, that fans will flock back and be willing to pay more and more for the privilege of seeing the team.

As for the question, I'm for giving Winter time to succeed. I do feel strongly that his relative success or failure is moot when considering the bigger picture. Winter will be replaced one day, sooner or later.

Unless we can imapct change at the leadership level though, our franchise, our crest, is in trouble. Our collective efforts should be focused on league intervention into how this Owner-Operator has run this franchise into the ground.

ensco
05-31-2011, 07:08 AM
God, I don't know what to want. It's becoming obvious to me that Winter isn't up to it, but how on earth can we do anything other than wait until the end of next year, before doing something about it.

Maybe time to find another hobby for a while.

J .
05-31-2011, 07:09 AM
Utter and complete rubbish! The goal WAS NOT to immediately improve the situation - that is your shortsighted dream/wish. The goals were long term - think three years, build a vision, build a complimentary team, build a style of play, strengthen an academy system that compliments and feeds the MLS team. Most of all, try to clean up 4 years of absolute crap that has accumulated in this organization.

Winter et al. are on there way to improving the team and shaping it - give it time. This is quite a (stinky and thankless) job to do, and anybody who won't give him until next spring to succeed in turning this titanic around is just not being realistic about the heavy lifting required for the job at hand, especially with the salary cap and other personel restrictions.

If at this point next year we have 12 points I will be the first to say "off with his head!" in the mean time we need to back off and chill a bit.

The fact that Harden and Gargan start a couple of games and blow it shouldn't take our long term vision too far off course here... - having the supporter groups climb up Winter's ass because he played Harden/Gargan is understandable, but also laughable. After us putting up with Garcia, the ultimate player in the MLS for finding new and creative ways to get the ball into the Toronto net, we really shouldn't get too upset by the occassional flub by Harden and Gargan - they can only bow down to Garcia - the grandmaster!

Ive got beautiful property, time share, in Florida for you.

If you are buying into that 3,4,5, 10 year plan nonsense, you are lost and without hope, completely ignoring MLS realities.

J .
05-31-2011, 07:10 AM
If Winter wasnt Dutch, but some form of Anglo, the results would not be so favourable.

I voted no because this is the worst TFC team put forward, his acquisitions, tactics and so forth are all worth a failing grade, especially when the rest of the leagues progress is considered.

J .
05-31-2011, 07:12 AM
You see this is where I disagree. To me the problem isn't the point total either. Its how we've been ouitclassed in so many games. The way we've been outcoached. The way we've been blown out in more than 1. I didn't need to be top of the league to be happy but like I said at the beginning of the season, I will not accept being the joke of the league under the guise of being in a "rebuild". That is simply not necessary. You say we've been competitive and improving? I say we've been no such thing and the proof is on the pitch.

Hell froze over or TFC won the cup cause theres something we finally agree on.

J .
05-31-2011, 07:18 AM
To anyone who voted that they don't approve of Winter, a simple question:

What were your expectations of the team prior to the season beginning? Mine was to be competitive and continuous improvement. Other than one shitshow, the squad has been more or less competitive and the improvement is clear (shitshow aside).

There has been no improvement, since the 4-2 opening day loss and the 6-2 embarassment at home. If the Eastern Conference was not so weak, we would be in last place.

How far our side has come from the one that beat Cruz Azul and went undefeated for almost three months, a year later, we are laughed at in SI, putting up horrible games at home and no clear measure of how this team will, when or how it will improve.

If Winter does not bring in notable players this transfer window, he has to go. This is pathetic and pretending there is progress doesnt make up for substantive realities against that dream.

maninb
05-31-2011, 07:49 AM
Anybody who thinks Winter should be dumped now, doesn't know the first thing about football and should just STFU...plain and simple....He has always stated it's a 3 year plan, and it's only been 5 months....give it a rest...

ExiledRed
05-31-2011, 08:03 AM
Anybody who thinks Winter should be dumped now, doesn't know the first thing about football and should just STFU...plain and simple....He has always stated it's a 3 year plan, and it's only been 5 months....give it a rest...

Oh its a three year plan now is it? Cause I hear different from all you footy experts.

It shouldn't take three years, buddy, and stating it will is just ass covering mojo style.

maninb
05-31-2011, 08:09 AM
Oh its a three year plan now is it? Cause I hear different from all you footy experts.

It shouldn't take three years, buddy, and stating it will is just ass covering mojo style.

I guess you missed Winter AND Mariner BOTH saying they think it will BE THREE YEARS, before getting to the point they want to be at.......sheeesh....People like you would have FIRED a terrific young coach like Jason Kries just because RSL sucked his first year!! And now they're the best team in the league IMO..

menefreghista
05-31-2011, 08:15 AM
I guess you missed Winter AND Mariner BOTH saying they think it will BE THREE YEARS, before getting to the point they want to be at.......sheeesh....People like you would have FIRED a terrific young coach like Jason Kries just because RSL sucked his first year!! And now they're the best team in the league IMO..

We play in a parity league where we have a financial advantage over most of our opponents.

It doesn't take 3 years to rebuild in MLS. Stop buying this bs.

A few more years of results like the start of this season and we will be talking about how similar our crowds are to those of the Toronto Rock.

__wowza
05-31-2011, 08:27 AM
Posting this immediately after the worst loss in TFC history and the firing of two other coaches leaves results highly skewed.

i'd like to think that TFC fans aren't as shortsighted as leaf fans and can chalk up a whole month to one game. personally, i'm looking at the long hall and the cramped schedule we've had to work with..


Also, I hate the maybe option with a passion. Sitting on the fence for something as simple / straightforward as this is nonsense, it's the easy option.

i agree. the reason i put it, and maybe i should've worded it like this, is because many still feel that it's too early to tell. they could argue about the lineups he's had to work with, or the schedule, or how they'd have a better grasp once we hit the transfer window. i'd look at something like that and say "i'm rating him because of how he performed despite all of these issues" while others wouldn't find it a fair way to assess someone. ya know?

KGH
05-31-2011, 08:27 AM
Anybody who thinks Winter should be dumped now, doesn't know the first thing about football and should just STFU...plain and simple....He has always stated it's a 3 year plan, and it's only been 5 months....give it a rest...

This is why we're angry:

Season ticket prices for the cheapest seats in 2011

Seattle - $436
Toronto $433
Galaxy - $400
Salt Lake $350
Houston $334
Columbus - $324
New England - $234
New York $320
Vancouver $319
Portland $300
Philadelphia $290
Kansas City $280
San Jose - $240
Colorado - $221
Chicago - $199
Chivas $180
Dallas - $170
We're getting bent over and all we're being told is we're rebuilding...it takes time. If you're putting the worst team on the field in MLS yet charging the 2nd highest there's going to be outrage.

This club brings in over $10m a season from ticket sales alone yet we only have one DP??

Winter knew what he was getting into when he signed. He should have brought a DP with him on day 1. Thats his fault.

Beach_Red
05-31-2011, 08:36 AM
I guess you missed Winter AND Mariner BOTH saying they think it will BE THREE YEARS, before getting to the point they want to be at.......sheeesh....People like you would have FIRED a terrific young coach like Jason Kries just because RSL sucked his first year!! And now they're the best team in the league IMO..


Well, I saw where they got three year contracts, so it makes sense.

But really, there's no one above Winter or Mariner at MLSE who has any idea if they're doing a good job or not and in fact, anyone at a high enough level to pay out two three year contracts and start paying someone else as well (they're still paying Mo and Preki, aren't they, so that would be three coaches and three GMs on the payroll) probably doesn't even know how many games TFC have played.

These guys are here for two years at least whether they win another game or sign a single new player.

There's no one at MLSE like Dave Checketts who can tell if the new coach is doing anything right or not, that's why they hired a consultant. But his contract is up.

menefreghista
05-31-2011, 08:38 AM
This is why we're angry:

Season ticket prices for the cheapest seats in 2011

Seattle - $436
Toronto $433
Galaxy - $400
Salt Lake $350
Houston $334
Columbus - $324
New England - $234
New York $320
Vancouver $319
Portland $300
Philadelphia $290
Kansas City $280
San Jose - $240
Colorado - $221
Chicago - $199
Chivas $180
Dallas - $170

I agree with your general point, but the final number ended up being $376 for south end seasons. $433 was the original price before the CCL game removal and free first game.

I still agree with you though, we should have a competitive advantage because of our financial clout.

tiberius
05-31-2011, 08:41 AM
Ive got beautiful property, time share, in Florida for you.

If you are buying into that 3,4,5, 10 year plan nonsense, you are lost and without hope, completely ignoring MLS realities.

I'm not buying into any long 3-10 year long term plan - I am simply pointing out that Winter was not brought in fix everything in the first two months of his first season. I will give the guy and his team until this time, next year, because he has inherited and absolute pile of crap that no quick fix is going to solve, regardless of what we would like to have happen... Although there may be some exceptions, the MLS realities are that it is going to take a year (at least) to take the mess from December 2011 and turn it into a contender or a winner. I wish it were not so, but that is the reality.

I don't like kick and chase football, which is what we have had for four years. I've seen positive changes in style and strategy on the field this year - just not great results yet. This year, everyone should enjoy seeing the enthusiasm, energy and results Eckersley, Plata and others produce and not dwell <too much ;-)> on micromanaging the coach.

Ensco has identified the root of the problem - where almost all of our angst can be traced - Tommy A. Lets work on that one, or a significant improvement in the 2012 ST package, or ? Having a cow two months on a season that we all knew was lost before it begun is pointless. You will just get an ulcer or blow a blood vessel...

jabbronies
05-31-2011, 08:46 AM
Winter knew what he was getting into when he signed. He should have brought a DP with him on day 1. Thats his fault.

I agreed with everything you said up until this last sentence.

And it's statements like this that people are pointing to when they say others don't know what they are talking about.

Beach_Red
05-31-2011, 08:53 AM
I agreed with everything you said up until this last sentence.

And it's statements like this that people are pointing to when they say others don't know what they are talking about.


I used to agree with you about this but now I'm not so sure. TFC was a mess in the off season with the captain in Scotland, the Cann and Attakora 'situations' beginning to simmer, veterans like Barrett (no matter you think of him he was part of that "stability") being shipped out.

Hindsight is 20/20, of course, but now it looks like it may not have been a bad idea to end the DeRo situation before pre-season (trade him, give him his guaranteed contract, whatever) or bring in a real leader for the team. A younger, more expensive Dichio.

It might have been a good idea for this new era of TFC management to really put their own stamp on the team and show the new direction they were taking the team.

Who knows, maybe they asked to do exactly that and were told not to spend the money. Mariner did say very early on they were close to a "big signing" and then it was never mentioned again.

P-NUTZ
05-31-2011, 09:15 AM
Also, I hate the maybe option with a passion. Sitting on the fence for something as simple / straightforward as this is nonsense, it's the easy option.

The 15 (so far) who answered 'maybe' do feel slightly more one way or another, and when pressed will give a yes or no response. Giving them an easy out sucks.


^ that's presumptuous. I support him and the longer term plan in principal and want him to succeed here.
But i picked 'maybe' because i am uncertain of his actual abilities as a coach for this team based on the line ups, tactics, mental state, performance of the players so far, the results and how the games have played out.

I'm not giving up, but believe IMO the group of players are not the worst in the world and should be performing a little better with a few more points as a result.

trane
05-31-2011, 09:24 AM
I have supported winter and I keep on supporting him. HOWEVER, he has had the team for a while now, and while I have seen signs of better play, overall we are still behind were I would have hoped to be by this time. In Italy a 6-2 loss can get a coach fired all by itself. Allowing 6 goals, speaks volumes about coaching, yes individual make mistakes, one , two goals, BUT SIX is a systemic failure, your system does not address the weakness of your team. Winter saying that the system does not prevent individual mistakes, is a complete cop out, YES, one mistake by a player for a goal, can be simply a result of one bad play/decision by one player, maybe two, but a coach must take responsability for six goals, even a CSL team that is well organized and motivated should not conceded six goals to an MLS team. They are not Barca. So while I support Winter, he better show that the teams can compete. He also needs to show some ability to adapt the system to what is needed in a game, playing the exact formation/shapre in Toronto as you did in Vancouver, when as long as you do not concede a goal you win the tournament, shows a real lack of tactical understading.

Pookie
05-31-2011, 09:30 AM
Re: Ticket prices

The argument has to be that we are paying the highest prices in most all areas of the stadium across the league.

End it at that. Forget that this is a rebuilding year or performance has been bad. That line of thinking will only lead to expensive playoff tickets when and if we ever make it. Our disposable incomes do not grow with team success.

For years, TFC fans subsidized the league. We did it at 2008 price levels. And if nothing changes you and I will pay a "loyalty price" for playoff tickets while season ticket holders in New York get their playoff tickets for free.

That's right. Your 40% increase is shared across the league and enables Red Bull fans, and fans in other cities, free playoff tickets on your dime.

Forget the angst over Winter and whether he starts Harden over an injured Cann. This is the bullshit we should be united around.

ManUtd4ever
05-31-2011, 09:38 AM
I maintain that this club is much better than their current record indicates, which is both an indictment of Winter's coaching abilities and an endorsement of Winter and Mariner's ability to build the roster.

The level of talent on this club is not overly impressive by any means, but it is far from worst in MLS. I have watched many other MLS matches this season, and based on the relative parity that exists in this league (with the exception of 5-6 upper echelon clubs), I believe this club is capable of fighting for one of the last playoff spots this season if the roster is healthy and managed properly.

In my opinion, TFC has underachieved so far this season, and at the very least, this club should definitely not be considered the laughing stock of the league.

jabbronies
05-31-2011, 09:40 AM
I used to agree with you about this but now I'm not so sure. TFC was a mess in the off season with the captain in Scotland, the Cann and Attakora 'situations' beginning to simmer, veterans like Barrett (no matter you think of him he was part of that "stability") being shipped out.

Hindsight is 20/20, of course, but now it looks like it may not have been a bad idea to end the DeRo situation before pre-season (trade him, give him his guaranteed contract, whatever) or bring in a real leader for the team. A younger, more expensive Dichio.

It might have been a good idea for this new era of TFC management to really put their own stamp on the team and show the new direction they were taking the team.

Who knows, maybe they asked to do exactly that and were told not to spend the money. Mariner did say very early on they were close to a "big signing" and then it was never mentioned again.


Not sure how Winter or Mariner could've brought in a DP at the start when we were right up to the top of the cap.

Also, how do you bring in a player into a situation you have no clue about. They knew they had to get rid of 80% of players on the team, but they didn't know which 80% they had to get rid of, they just knew that the majority of the team had to go.

Then they had to see what was left, and start filling the holes based on the system they wanted to play. Bringing in quality players in February is tough. Euro guys are mid season and MLS teams are not just going to give up their quality players.

So after they build a team based on what they could find in the short amount of time prior to pre season, they have to play with what they have and see where their needs are not being met.

Only then can should a team realistically bring in a DP. And lets be honest, You dont just say we need a striker and then go sign Van Nistleroy or Messi. There's a courtship with these players that needs to happen. Why would a superstar want to come to MLS? Toronto never-the-less.

Beach_Red
05-31-2011, 09:47 AM
^ Yeah, all that's true (though when it comes to cap space I'd like to see Toronto be as 'creative' as NY and LA, and Mariner did say he was close toa "big signing" so he must have believed he could make it work with the cap).

But it doesn't need to be a "superstar" all I'm talking about a leader, a Dichio, a guy who understands what Winter is trying to do and can lead by example. Between Mariner, Winter and Klinsmann I think we all expected their contacts to bring in someone more than they have so far.

Maybe this summer.

P-NUTZ
05-31-2011, 09:48 AM
I maintain that this club is much better than their current record indicates, which is both an indictment of Winter's coaching abilities and an endorsement of Winter and Mariner's ability to build the roster.

The level of talent on this club is not overly impressive by any means, but it is far from worst in MLS. I have watched many other MLS matches this season, and based on the relative parity that exists in this league (with the exception of 5-6 upper echelon clubs), I believe this club is capable of fighting for one of the last playoff spots this season if the roster is healthy and managed properly.

In my opinion, TFC has underachieved so far this season, and at the very least, this club should definitely not be considered the laughing stock of the league.


^ i have similar thoughts

Carts
05-31-2011, 09:57 AM
I have supported winter and I keep on supporting him. HOWEVER, he has had the team for a while now, and while I have seen signs of better play, overall we are still behind were I would have hoped to be by this time. In Italy a 6-2 loss can get a coach fired all by itself. Allowing 6 goals, speaks volumes about coaching, yes individual make mistakes, one , two goals, BUT SIX is a systemic failure, your system does not address the weakness of your team. Winter saying that the system does not prevent individual mistakes, is a complete cop out, YES, one mistake by a player for a goal, can be simply a result of one bad play/decision by one player, maybe two, but a coach must take responsability for six goals, even a CSL team that is well organized and motivated should not conceded six goals to an MLS team. They are not Barca. So while I support Winter, he better show that the teams can compete. He also needs to show some ability to adapt the system to what is needed in a game, playing the exact formation/shapre in Toronto as you did in Vancouver, when as long as you do not concede a goal you win the tournament, shows a real lack of tactical understading.

This is my main worry after watching Toronto this season...

Is Winter a one-trick pony...?

Easy if you have a roster that is as talented, or more talented, than the rest of your opponents... Not so easy if you have a roster that needs work...

I understand he "wants" to play a certain style...

I understand this a roster that is NOT "his" in terms of 100% selection...

BUT c'mon, adjust to be at least competitive, or at least not regularly embarrased with what you have...

Going out and giving up 4-goals to expansion Vancouver, 6-goals to 2nd year Philly, 3-goals to Seattle, 3-goals to DC United (who are .500 and have a GD of -4) shows a complete lack of ability to adjust, to modify, and to COMPETE at this level...

Adjust, modify, manage this roster - don't just throw out the guys into formation and then say "...well if I had better players that I picked this formation would work and be entertaining..."

I want to see him MANAGE the club, MAKE PROPER DECISIONS, and get the team to at least be in the game - not just the one trick pony we have seen thus far.... :(

Carts...

trane
05-31-2011, 09:59 AM
^ Exactly.

jabbronies
05-31-2011, 10:01 AM
^ Yeah, all that's true (though when it comes to cap space I'd like to see Toronto be as 'creative' as NY and LA, and Mariner did say he was close toa "big signing" so he must have believed he could make it work with the cap).

But it doesn't need to be a "superstar" all I'm talking about a leader, a Dichio, a guy who understands what Winter is trying to do and can lead by example. Between Mariner, Winter and Klinsmann I think we all expected their contacts to bring in someone more than they have so far.

Maybe this summer.


That's what I'm waiting for. And that's why I think people should be patient.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I see guys like Gargen, Harden etc getting starts because:

- It's early in the season, get these guys playing now so that our better players won't be burned out come the second half of the season - which is normally what has happened in the past.

- This is these guys chance to prove they either belong on the team or they don't fit in. You don't give someone 1, 2, even 4 chances to prove themselves. You have to be fair and give them opportunities in different situations to prove themselves. How many chances are enough? I say mid season. If they haven;t proved themselves by that time, ship 'em out.

What am I expecting mid - season? realistically...

Get rid of:
2-3 guys. This number will depend on what can we get

What we should get:
Promote 1 academy guy to the Senior team
Promote 1-2 of the current rookies to full time roster status (Cordon? Gold? Plata is already there.)
Bring in 1 mid-level MLS player - a solid guy off the bench, starter would be nice though. Someone expirienced who isn't a bumbling Garcia.
1 - DP striker

A nice to have:
A proper Centre Back....we don't have one, we never had one, we need one. Nana is a good number 2 CB. Cann is a good number 1.5 CB. We don't have a QB who can control shit and is a beast out there. If we can get someone who is the same caliber/level of Eckersly, that would be really nice.

P-NUTZ
05-31-2011, 10:03 AM
^ yup - its really on winter right now to make the most of what he has when he takes the field.

jabbronies
05-31-2011, 10:13 AM
^ yup - its really on winter right now to make the most of what he has when he takes the field.

Agreed he has made some questionable moves. Chalk it up to rookie mistakes? Maybe there's a bigger conspiracy against players?

IMO We honestly won't know until mid-season when we start seeing the types of moves they make.

trane
05-31-2011, 10:20 AM
This is my main worry after watching Toronto this season...

Is Winter a one-trick pony...?

Easy if you have a roster that is as talented, or more talented, than the rest of your opponents... Not so easy if you have a roster that needs work...

I understand he "wants" to play a certain style...

I understand this a roster that is NOT "his" in terms of 100% selection...

BUT c'mon, adjust to be at least competitive, or at least not regularly embarrased with what you have...

Going out and giving up 4-goals to expansion Vancouver, 6-goals to 2nd year Philly, 3-goals to Seattle, 3-goals to DC United (who are .500 and have a GD of -4) shows a complete lack of ability to adjust, to modify, and to COMPETE at this level...

Adjust, modify, manage this roster - don't just throw out the guys into formation and then say "...well if I had better players that I picked this formation would work and be entertaining..."

I want to see him MANAGE the club, MAKE PROPER DECISIONS, and get the team to at least be in the game - not just the one trick pony we have seen thus far.... :(

Carts...


I am all for deciding to play a system and sticking to it, and a 4-3-3 is a good system, but I like the 4-3-3, because it is a flexibale system.

You want to attack but keep solid at the back, then you play it like, 4-2-1-3, you want to attack all out then you play it, like 4-1-2-3, and if you whant real defensive, (like Inter v Barca last year) you play it 4-2-3-1, your two forwards playing back like wingers. These are not the only ways you play them, and personal decisions are also big. But a great coach makes the modification necessary to the basic system as the oponent and or situation requires. I have not seen enough of that, and his personal decision are questionable, the absence of Atakora, from anywere on the backline is questoinable, as is playing harden as the starting CB.

TFCRegina
05-31-2011, 10:21 AM
This is my main worry after watching Toronto this season...

Is Winter a one-trick pony...?

Easy if you have a roster that is as talented, or more talented, than the rest of your opponents... Not so easy if you have a roster that needs work...

I understand he "wants" to play a certain style...

I understand this a roster that is NOT "his" in terms of 100% selection...

BUT c'mon, adjust to be at least competitive, or at least not regularly embarrased with what you have...

Going out and giving up 4-goals to expansion Vancouver, 6-goals to 2nd year Philly, 3-goals to Seattle, 3-goals to DC United (who are .500 and have a GD of -4) shows a complete lack of ability to adjust, to modify, and to COMPETE at this level...

Adjust, modify, manage this roster - don't just throw out the guys into formation and then say "...well if I had better players that I picked this formation would work and be entertaining..."

I want to see him MANAGE the club, MAKE PROPER DECISIONS, and get the team to at least be in the game - not just the one trick pony we have seen thus far.... :(

Carts...

This. Again, one of the reasons why I think he shouldn't be fired is Winter has got to be thinking "I can't just keep doing this, things need to change." Hopefully he makes that change sooner rather than later.

Azerban
05-31-2011, 10:23 AM
To everyone who says Winter is a one-trick pony, I have just this to say:




Winter has a trick?

maninb
05-31-2011, 10:25 AM
Well, I saw where they got three year contracts, so it makes sense.

But really, there's no one above Winter or Mariner at MLSE who has any idea if they're doing a good job or not and in fact, anyone at a high enough level to pay out two three year contracts and start paying someone else as well (they're still paying Mo and Preki, aren't they, so that would be three coaches and three GMs on the payroll) probably doesn't even know how many games TFC have played.

These guys are here for two years at least whether they win another game or sign a single new player.

There's no one at MLSE like Dave Checketts who can tell if the new coach is doing anything right or not, that's why they hired a consultant. But his contract is up.


^ Agreed....If by this time NEXT year we're still languishing THEN it's time to fire him/them....

trane
05-31-2011, 10:28 AM
^ Hold on, I support him but if this team is not improved by at least then end of this year, he has to go. Why would you give him another season. There has to be signs of real improvement, at least on the pitch. He needs to earn another year, I support him at this time, but he has not earned another year, yet, not even close. At best he has earned June.

FreekAce
05-31-2011, 11:31 AM
You dont just say we need a striker and then go sign Van Nistleroy or Messi. There's a courtship with these players that needs to happen. Why would a superstar want to come to MLS? Toronto never-the-less.

this is very true, you dont call a guy asking him to play and dress him in a shirt a week later. negotiating contracts can take months. i've got good faith that management has been chasing options. its not as if they are not aware of what needs to be improved, winter and mariner both are not stupid. same cannot be said for some expectations from fans though.

Belfast_Boy
05-31-2011, 11:53 AM
I didn't say anything at the beginning of this thread because we hadn't played much. now that we have I can honestly say this shit needs to change. 6 goals..... AT HOME come on!

if you think this is working have a look at the results. a few mistakes means a few goals, not two wins out of 13 games with a -10 GD. if you approve of this I'd hate to see what you'd disagree with.

he might want to play a certain style but it's not working here. like a lot of others have said, we have to play a style that our team can manage.

DangerRed
05-31-2011, 12:02 PM
Take a look at this highlight reel from Saturday and tell me how, with his decision to start Harden and Gargan, you can possibly approve of the job Winter is doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1UQV43ZNso

Winter says Harden and Gargan continue to impress him in training. How can that be, when Harden can't make a simple pass to a team mate and Gargan does not seem to be positionally aware AT ALL?

If you look at all of it together, we're in practically the same position before Preki took over: no defensive stability, aggravated by an underperforming defensive midfielder and lack of cohesion in the lineup.

As Saturday showed (and the one before that, where we blew a 2-0 lead), you can have two goals and a bunch of chances and have it all mean nothing because your defence craters.

We're miles from home. We need at least three Eckersleys for the backline before we're even stabilized. How do you do that with the cap situation being what it is? And where do you find these players?

Beach_Red
05-31-2011, 12:34 PM
this is very true, you dont call a guy asking him to play and dress him in a shirt a week later. negotiating contracts can take months. i've got good faith that management has been chasing options. its not as if they are not aware of what needs to be improved, winter and mariner both are not stupid. same cannot be said for some expectations from fans though.


Is this really necessary simply because some people have different expectations that you? Everyone knows it takes months to negotiate multi-million dollars contracts (we're not patient about it, but we know it). And we expect it started in January.

But there are plenty of reasons to question this management. They took over the team in January. They went to Turkey and South Carolina and Florida to evaluate the players they had, they brought in many players for trials, they traded players and cut some players and they signed quite a few new players. They had the same pre-season as every other team in the league.

As people here have pointed out, the TFC roster right now is not the worst in MLS but they did get blown out 12 games into the season at home, to a team a year and a half old.

How low should our expectations be?

TFCRegina
05-31-2011, 12:38 PM
Is this really necessary simply because some people have different expectations that you? Everyone knows it takes months to negotiate multi-million dollars contracts (we're not patient about it, but we know it). And we expect it started in January.

But there are plenty of reasons to question this management. They took over the team in January. They went to Turkey and South Carolina and Florida to evaluate the players they had, they brought in many players for trials, they traded players and cut some players and they signed quite a few new players. They had the same pre-season as every other team in the league.

As people here have pointed out, the TFC roster right now is not the worst in MLS but they did get blown out 12 games into the season at home, to a team a year and a half old.

How low should our expectations be?

I said 5 wins would be tough to obtain this season. So that's pretty low.

Roogsy
05-31-2011, 12:48 PM
Take a look at this highlight reel from Saturday and tell me how, with his decision to start Harden and Gargan, you can possibly approve of the job Winter is doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1UQV43ZNso



http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=206&pictureid=2772

We have to really start to question his evaulation abilities if Harden is chosen over Attakora. I mean really, this is a player that has been nothing but lauded for 4 years (and in my opinion overly-lauded but I digress) but this year he's not good enough to start over Harden? BS.

Where are all the people that were talking about Attakora for Captain? They should be screaming bloody murder right now.

gomesv
05-31-2011, 01:42 PM
[quote=DangerRed;1310821]Take a look at this highlight reel from Saturday and tell me how, with his decision to start Harden and Gargan, you can possibly approve of the job Winter is doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1UQV43ZNso

Winter says Harden and Gargan continue to impress him in training. How can that be, when Harden can't make a simple pass to a team mate and Gargan does not seem to be positionally aware AT ALL?

This alone makes me question Winter, this is not the first game Harden and Gargan have made costly mistakes, every fan in the stadium is on pins and needles when Harden has the ball......BUT Winter can't see this.......:facepalm:

ensco
05-31-2011, 01:52 PM
The funny thing about Harden is that I thought he was going to be a star. Maybe he still can be. But my god does Harden have an obvious confidence problem right now.

Harden can place the long ball on a dime (at least he could until this year!), can tackle, and is tough as nails. I still remember him getting that brutal cut, the one that kept him out last year for months. Rather than writhe around, he just sat there staring into the middle distance. You could tell it was something that would have most other players screaming, but he just sat there.

I am losing faith in Winter, but it's not because of his handling of Harden. Winter's sticking with Harden because he believes in him. He may be wrong, you all may be right, but that's what a manager should do.

It's Winter's inability to bring in meaningful new players, his handling of others such as Cann and Nana, and his ridiculous public statements, that is more worrying. To me anyway.

Suds
05-31-2011, 02:02 PM
I can see positives in what Winter is trying to implement as a playing style. I'll give credit where it's due. Take a few of our pylons out of the lineup and replace them with warm corpses that are self-aware and can think, and I think we would see much better team performances. Some of the on-field issues lay squarely on just how bad some of the players have been individually. No coach from anywhere can make some of these guys better.

Where Winter seems to be having a lot of problems is his actual player selection game in and game out. The positions some of these guys are being asked to play is just crazy. (ex. Gargan - right back only, and only as a sub) Also, some of the in-game substitutions are mind boggling. I think this is where Winter's lack of first team management experience is showing.

The question then becomes, do TFC allow Winter this whole year to gain that experience? Because between the poor talent, individual shit play, and questionable caching decisions, it's going to be a long painful year.

Roogsy
05-31-2011, 02:18 PM
I don't think we have a choice. But I think someone needs to wake up and tell Winter that expectations won't be any lower next year because we shit the bed this year. In fact, if we start off slow, he'd better be polishing off his resumé.

Get your shit in order before the year starts. Get the team playing what you want it to play from game 1. Get results.

Anything less and this whole thing is a failure. If I start hearing excuses well into next year well...you think I am bad now? They will have to ban me from BMO Field.

KGH
05-31-2011, 02:25 PM
The other hole that Winter is digging himself into is if we're the worst team in the league and we want ot do a wholesale linup change in the offseason the only way you get people here is by offering more $$ than the teams that are in the hunt.

Using the Dero situation as an example...he wanted more money here but is now happy with his existing contract in NY.

It's only going to be worse next year.

denime
05-31-2011, 02:29 PM
I don't think we have a choice. But I think someone needs to wake up and tell Winter that expectations won't be any lower next year because we shit the bed this year. In fact, if we start off slow, he'd better be polishing off his resumé.

Get your shit in order before the year starts. Get the team playing what you want it to play from game 1. Get results.

Anything less and this whole thing is a failure. If I start hearing excuses well into next year well...you think I am bad now? They will have to ban me from BMO Field.


Agree 100%!

Next season has to start strong from the opening game,no excuses anymore,and yes, we can agree from time to time.:D

Roogsy
05-31-2011, 02:54 PM
I have no choice Denime.

I may not be happy with the choice, but I simply cannot fathom changing coaches in the middle of the year again will help us do any better.

I do not accept that it is satisfactory for this year to be write off, but I have no say in the matter. MLSE has allowed it to happen and we supporters should take note and let them know that anything less than stellar results next year will result in massive clamouring from the masses.

To me, this year is lost. And it's frustrating because it simply was not necessary.

menefreghista
05-31-2011, 02:56 PM
MLSE has allowed it to happen and we supporters should take note and let them know that anything less than stellar results next year will result in massive clamouring from the masses.

The way things are going, if the results don't improve their won't be much mass to clamour at anything.

TFCRegina
05-31-2011, 03:01 PM
Going over these highlights multiple times = very painful.

But it's pretty clear that Gargan is just completely clueless out there. Harden was poor but Gargan shouldn't have been out there at all.

menefreghista
05-31-2011, 03:03 PM
Gargan should be playing in the NASL.

How he got a raise blows my mind. I'm assuming it happened while Cochrane was in charge.

ManUtd4ever
05-31-2011, 03:12 PM
The funny thing about Harden is that I thought he was going to be a star. Maybe he still can be. But my god does Harden have an obvious confidence problem right now.

Harden can place the long ball on a dime (at least he could until this year!), can tackle, and is tough as nails. I still remember him getting that brutal cut, the one that kept him out last year for months. Rather than writhe around, he just sat there staring into the middle distance. You could tell it was something that would have most other players screaming, but he just sat there.

I am losing faith in Winter, but it's not because of his handling of Harden. Winter's sticking with Harden because he believes in him. He may be wrong, you all may be right, but that's what a manager should do.

It's Winter's inability to bring in meaningful new players, his handling of others such as Cann and Nana, and his ridiculous public statements, that is more worrying. To me anyway.

Harden had a solid run with LA in 2008, and I initially had high hopes for him as well. I think the year he took off from the game for personal enlightenment has had a detrimental impact on his development, because he has never recaptured his previous form since he returned to professional football with TFC.

As for Winter's inability to bring in meaningful new players, I respectfully disagree. Our most reliable defenders this season have all been acquisitions of the new management regime. I would rate Eckersley, Williams, Yourassowsky, and Borman ahead of most of the incumbent defenders on this club.

I believe the issue is not necessarily the player personnel, it is Winter's inconsistent and questionable roster management.

TFCRegina
05-31-2011, 03:16 PM
Gargan should be playing in the NASL.

How he got a raise blows my mind. I'm assuming it happened while Cochrane was in charge.

He got a raise because he was popular with a lot of people. Not because of his talent, simply because he had a good work ethic and personality.

Roogsy
05-31-2011, 03:27 PM
As for Winter's inability to bring in meaningful new players, I respectfully disagree. Our most reliable defenders this season have all been acquisitions of the new management regime. I would rate Eckersley, Williams, Yourassowsky, and Borman ahead of most of the incumbent defenders on this club.

We really have to take Eckers off this list. His agent contacted us, we didn't go out and find him. You really can't give credit to management for this one.

Borman happened only because DeRo got sent to NY. Despite not having a cap hit himself, I consider the portion of the salary that we are paying NY for DeRo to be a hit for Tchani and Borman. And he hasn't really impressed me much anyways if by reliable you mean at least above average. Yourass and Williams have been average at best. These are not players that I am going gaga over. Certainly not players that I would add to a body of work in support of how well acquisitions have gone. None of them, other than Eckers are starters on decent MLS teams.

jabbronies
05-31-2011, 03:32 PM
We really have to take Eckers off this list. His agent contacted us, we didn't go out and find him. You really can't give credit to management for this one.



Really?? Why did he want to come here?

menefreghista
05-31-2011, 03:34 PM
Really?? Why did he want to come here?

Because the way his career was gong in England his next move was most likely the Conference.

trane
05-31-2011, 03:38 PM
I have no choice Denime.

I may not be happy with the choice, but I simply cannot fathom changing coaches in the middle of the year again will help us do any better.

I do not accept that it is satisfactory for this year to be write off, but I have no say in the matter. MLSE has allowed it to happen and we supporters should take note and let them know that anything less than stellar results next year will result in massive clamouring from the masses.

To me, this year is lost. And it's frustrating because it simply was not necessary.

Funny, I support him at this point, meaning I think he should stay for know. BUT if we do not see improvements sooner rather then later, no way he should get another season.

ManUtd4ever
05-31-2011, 03:42 PM
We really have to take Eckers off this list. His agent contacted us, we didn't go out and find him. You really can't give credit to management for this one.

Borman happened only because DeRo got sent to NY. Despite not having a cap hit himself, I consider the portion of the salary that we are paying NY for DeRo to be a hit for Tchani and Borman. And he hasn't really impressed me much anyways if by reliable you mean at least above average. Yourass and Williams have been average at best. These are not players that I am going gaga over. Certainly not players that I would add to a body of work in support of how well acquisitions have gone. None of them, other than Eckers are starters on decent MLS teams.

Why should Ecks be taken off the list? It is because of his familiarity with Paul Mariner that he is here, so any way you slice it, he is an acquisition that should be credited to the new management regime.

I have had new clients referred to me from existing clients because of my rapport with my clientele in my industry. Do I not deserve credit for those referrals?

As for the others, I never said they are all stars, but they have certainly been far more competent than most of the incumbent defenders on this club so far this season. I think you are being harsh in your assessment. Ecks and Williams could easily start on most clubs in MLS, and Yourassowsky has been solid in his limited time on the backline. Borman has been impressive moving forward but vulnerable on defense so I agree that he has been average.

trane
05-31-2011, 03:48 PM
What is Harden showing winter at training??????? A CB has to be decisive and physical, has to read the ball well and play with controlled aggression??? Which of these qualities does Harden have.


[ I still say I support winter-ahhahahha]

Roogsy
05-31-2011, 03:51 PM
Why should Ecks be taken off the list? It is because of his familiarity with Paul Mariner that he is here, so any way you slice it, he is an acquisition that should be credited to the new management regime.

I guess when you look at it that way, it can be attributed to Mariner, not Winter.

Still, I'd prefer our acquisitions to not come by dumb luck. This didn't show any initiative or intuition. I'd like to see some of that in our acquisitions at some point.

Roogsy
05-31-2011, 03:52 PM
Funny, I support him at this point, meaning I think he should stay for know. BUT if we do not see improvements sooner rather then later, no way he should get another season.


If we end this year on a shit note, I won't shed a tear if Winter is gone.

But if they bring him back for next year, it better be crystal clear that excuses are no longer on the table.

jabbronies
05-31-2011, 03:54 PM
What is Harden showing winter at training??????? A CB has to be decisive and physical, has to read the ball well and play with controlled aggression??? Which of these qualities does Harden have.


[ I still say I support winter-ahhahahha]


maybe he is doing well in training, but he can't translate that into the game.

I've seen it so many times where a player is solid in practice against players he's familiar with but then shits the bed against unfamiliar players.

Belfast_Boy
05-31-2011, 03:59 PM
wow, a lot of "next years...." in this thread. this must be Toronto.

2 wins in 13 = canned. it wouldn't fly in anyother league or city.

why does Toronto continue to bend over?

Whoop
05-31-2011, 04:00 PM
Roogs, I get what you're getting at with Eckersley.

But isn't that a case of having connections? Eckersley's agent knows Mariner is in Toronto and thinks about approaching him. Maybe Mariner has no idea that Eckersley's even thinking about playing in MLS. But that contact has been made and Mariner thinks "hell yeah."

Maybe same thing with Winter. Maybe there's some guy who played for him and knows that Winter is with a MLS club and thinks "I got along with him, my career could use a jump start I'll contact him."

And I'm sure Winter/Mariner are using their contacts they have in Europe or other parts of the world to see if there is any interest in players coming over.

For the most part, most of the initial contact will be made with agents as opposed to clubs or players.

So even if Eckersley "fell" in TFC's lap, I don't see that as a bad thing.

For example, would Eckersley fall into TFC's lap if Cochrane was in charge?

Beach_Red
05-31-2011, 04:04 PM
^ Yeah, that's what Ensco was saying, when you hire a manager you hire his connections. That may be why when Klinsmann came on as the consultant people expected a few signings to follow. And then people thought that after all those years in NE not being able to sign a DP Mariner was just itching to do it.

trane
05-31-2011, 04:07 PM
Ekersely is a DP????

Whoop
05-31-2011, 04:09 PM
No. LOL

denime
05-31-2011, 04:41 PM
Ekersely is a DP????

For 75K per year he is better than any other DP in MLS.

Roogsy
05-31-2011, 04:43 PM
Roogs, I get what you're getting at with Eckersley.

But isn't that a case of having connections? Eckersley's agent knows Mariner is in Toronto and thinks about approaching him. Maybe Mariner has no idea that Eckersley's even thinking about playing in MLS. But that contact has been made and Mariner thinks "hell yeah."

Maybe same thing with Winter. Maybe there's some guy who played for him and knows that Winter is with a MLS club and thinks "I got along with him, my career could use a jump start I'll contact him."

And I'm sure Winter/Mariner are using their contacts they have in Europe or other parts of the world to see if there is any interest in players coming over.

For the most part, most of the initial contact will be made with agents as opposed to clubs or players.

So even if Eckersley "fell" in TFC's lap, I don't see that as a bad thing.

For example, would Eckersley fall into TFC's lap if Cochrane was in charge?

I get all that. It's just not really a "plus" when evaluating a GM's ability to bring in talent because it speaks nothing to whether they can go out and find players which is where they will be getting MOST of their players, not through players landing in their laps.

jabbronies
05-31-2011, 04:57 PM
Gargan should be playing in the OSL.

How he got a raise blows my mind. I'm assuming it happened while Cochrane was in charge.


Fixed your post..hope you don't mind.

Whoop
05-31-2011, 04:58 PM
But with literally the tens of thousands of players out there, that's how most of the acquisitions will happen for a MLS team.

The only place where you find or evaluate players for a MLS team is through the draft, which really isn't the place to build a team anymore.

I foresee a situation like this in the off-season as an example. Winter goes to the Netherlands or Mariner goes to the UK, while there they talk to agents that reside there and the agent will say "Well, I have 2-3 players who might be willing to go to MLS" or they'll talk to a technical director of a club and he'll say "we have about 3-4 excess players, maybe 1 or 2 might be interested in going to the USA." And maybe after talking to 5-6 guys they have a list of 12-13 interested players and then you evaluate.

It's not like Mariner goes "I'm going to fly to Chile today and go scout a match for players." It's not like he's going to go a Colo-Colo reserve match and say "that's the guy I want" and the club says "um, yeah, he's not available."

Now if Mariner went to Chile, as an example, to build relationships there then that's different.

That's what the joke was with Mo going to Brazil on a scouting trip. Did he have contacts there? Did he have 2-3 locals working for him there assessing the landscape so to speak and provide him with a list of 10-12 guys to watch?

Ideally both Mariner and Winter have friends/associates/former teammates splashed around the globe that can call them up and say "hey, I got a guy you might be interested in."

I think it's a misnomer thinking that guys in the MLS are just going to fly into a country to watch a guy without any references.

Again, I don't know how MLS clubs work when it comes to scouting. It's so secretive.

jloome
05-31-2011, 05:29 PM
God, I don't know what to want. It's becoming obvious to me that Winter isn't up to it, but how on earth can we do anything other than wait until the end of next year, before doing something about it.

Maybe time to find another hobby for a while.

This.

But not really. I'll still watch the games, I'm just less invested in it all.

I think he's probably a very good technical coach, and we've seen some evidence of that in tactical approach and player movement.

But so far there are no signs to me that:

-- He can motivate pre-game. Our starts are our most inconsistent feature, and this is a key manager role.

-- He can differentiate between talents at a lower level from that at which he played. There are a host of former "top" internationals who have flamed out of coaching at the top level because they couldn't recognize fine distinctions between more-flawed players.

-- He can adopt tactically to other teams. He's trying to force a rigid system in a league built around tactical adoption to the available players, due to short rosters and the cap. It's fine to work a Dutch 433, but you have to be flexible in how you implement it.

-- He can learn English quickly enough. He's been a professional player for 20-plus years and most Dutch I've met are already fluent if they're going to be by Winter's age. He's still coaching all sessions via a translator, which sometimes makes it tough to get athletes invested, particularly when they're making sub-six figures.

These are all major issues. If he's humble and MLSE is patient, they're all addressable and he can turn the whole thing around. But I have serious doubts. I suppose they're keeping Marriner around as the backup plan.

jloome
05-31-2011, 05:31 PM
We really have to take Eckers off this list. His agent contacted us, we didn't go out and find him. You really can't give credit to management for this one..

My understanding is that we contacted his agent because Marriner knew him from Argyle. He had him there as a loan player.

tfc2008
05-31-2011, 06:14 PM
You guys are sick to talk about the coach.
Aron dont have one normal player ho can play a 90 min game.
Is it 4-3-3 are 4-4-2 this group never understand how soccer to have to be played.
You can put the best trainer in the world before this group and maybe you dont have 12 but 10 points.
All the negative here on this site is absurd, play hockey because this is CANADA

tfc2008
05-31-2011, 06:14 PM
sorry for bad writing (import)

tiberius
05-31-2011, 08:48 PM
You guys are sick to talk about the coach.
Aron dont have one normal player ho can play a 90 min game.
Is it 4-3-3 are 4-4-2 this group never understand how soccer to have to be played.
You can put the best trainer in the world before this group and maybe you dont have 12 but 10 points.
All the negative here on this site is absurd, play hockey because this is CANADA

There is truth to what is said here - you could bring Sir Alex in and he would say "WTF" and have one helluva time trying to get more than the 12 points we have. He might not have played Harden or Gargan last game, but the point result at the end of the game would have been the same. In fact I think Fergie would last about one game with Toronto FC and then do a massive John Carver blow up (Fergie Style...), and head back to the UK... Toronto FC ain't no bed of roses - for any coach! Thank goodness they locked Winter into a three year deal, before he understood fully what he was getting into ;-)

ExiledRed
05-31-2011, 09:15 PM
There is truth to what is said here - you could bring Sir Alex in and he would say "WTF" and have one helluva time trying to get more than the 12 points we have. He might not have played Harden or Gargan last game, but the point result at the end of the game would have been the same. In fact I think Fergie would last about one game with Toronto FC and then do a massive John Carver blow up (Fergie Style...), and head back to the UK... Toronto FC ain't no bed of roses - for any coach! Thank goodness they locked Winter into a three year deal, before he understood fully what he was getting into ;-)

Lets get this straight,

Sir Alex would point blank refuse to coach a football team where the uneducated ownership dictates the style of play to entertain some notion of fabricating a culture.

denime
05-31-2011, 09:26 PM
Lets get this straight,

Sir Alex would point blank refuse to coach a football team where the uneducated ownership dictates the style of play to entertain some notion of fabricating a culture.

Yeah,Blazer family are very soccer educated owners.:facepalm:

I don't why are you so up against implementing new culture of play? We don't have results like last year,but games are far more interesting than last year Prekiball.

Beach_Red
05-31-2011, 09:45 PM
Call it something else. Culture can't be dictated from the top down.

dow117
05-31-2011, 09:47 PM
Yeah,Blazer family are very soccer educated owners.:facepalm:

I don't why are you so up against implementing new culture of play? We don't have results like last year,but games are far more interesting than last year Prekiball.

Yeh, that Philly game was very interesting !!!

denime
05-31-2011, 09:55 PM
Call it something else. Culture can't be dictated from the top down.

Really,Can you than explain to us who can dictate the culture,fans thanks?

Last time I Barcelona playing style was implemented by Creuyff who was coach and than GM,and the whole culture and philodophy of Barca playing style came from top,not from fans or players.

I would really apriciate if you can elaborate your statment,thanks.

Sorry for typos,I'm on my cell tonight.

ExiledRed
05-31-2011, 10:57 PM
Yeah,Blazer family are very soccer educated owners.:facepalm:

I don't why are you so up against implementing new culture of play? We don't have results like last year,but games are far more interesting than last year Prekiball.

You think the Glazers dictate the style of play based on some consultation from a wandering coach. and Alex Ferguson follows their command?

You're not serious, and your last question proves it.

ExiledRed
05-31-2011, 10:59 PM
Really,Can you than explain to us who can dictate the culture,fans thanks?

Last time I Barcelona playing style was implemented by Creuyff who was coach and than GM,and the whole culture and philodophy of Barca playing style came from top,not from fans or players.

I would really apriciate if you can elaborate your statment,thanks.

Sorry for typos,I'm on my cell tonight.

Cruyff wasnt hired to implement any system but his own, and thats what he did. with Barcelona.

He wasnt hired to make a canadian MLS team emulate a foreign playing style because its fanciful.

Heathen
05-31-2011, 11:03 PM
Really,Can you than explain to us who can dictate the culture,fans thanks?

Last time I Barcelona playing style was implemented by Creuyff who was coach and than GM,and the whole culture and philodophy of Barca playing style came from top,not from fans or players.

I would really apriciate if you can elaborate your statment,thanks.

Sorry for typos,I'm on my cell tonight.

And how long did it take for Barcelona to bear the fruits of that system? and they are a much richer, more famous better positioned club than we will ever be. I see the point in bringing the academy kids up to play a certain way, fine but we're not going to see the benefits for 4 maybe 5 years and even then how many are going to end up being poached.
What we need is a balanced approach without all this grandiose talk of systems and culture, I think that's going to be a burden for WInter more than anything. When he goes on and on about a system then we see the kind of debacle we did on Saturday what is the average fan supposed to think?

Carts
06-01-2011, 08:21 AM
maybe he is doing well in training, but he can't translate that into the game.

I've seen it so many times where a player is solid in practice against players he's familiar with but then shits the bed against unfamiliar players.

Unfortunately, and I hate to say this, but often what separates great coaches / managers from the rest of the pack is the ability to see this ahead of time...

Likewise, great managers see players in training that others pass over - but just have the "thing" that translates into a game player. They acquire these players on the cheap and have a player that others passed on...

Its one of the differences in great managers and everyone else - the ability to see talent, and to see something that others don't see, that quality that isn't just in training, but a "gamer"...

Carts...

ManUtd4ever
06-01-2011, 08:29 AM
And how long did it take for Barcelona to bear the fruits of that system? and they are a much richer, more famous better positioned club than we will ever be. I see the point in bringing the academy kids up to play a certain way, fine but we're not going to see the benefits for 4 maybe 5 years and even then how many are going to end up being poached.
What we need is a balanced approach without all this grandiose talk of systems and culture, I think that's going to be a burden for WInter more than anything. When he goes on and on about a system then we see the kind of debacle we did on Saturday what is the average fan supposed to think?

I have to agree. Although the club has demonstrated the ability to play the system quite effectively at times this season, Winter must also demonstrate the ability to adapt in terms of being flexible with his tactical decisions and roster management. As others have mentioned, there are variations of the 4-3-3 formation that can be deployed depending on the circumstances.

trane
06-01-2011, 09:19 AM
Again I support Winter, but saying that the greatest of managers would not have done better, is not understading what great managers can do in a team game. Sure, if you do not have tallent you may not win the league, but you will find how to get results based on the tallent you have. Winter, is trying to implement a new sytem so to a point I understand why he is stiking with it, but again a little more tactical flexibility would be importnat.

jabbronies
06-01-2011, 09:39 AM
Unfortunately, and I hate to say this, but often what separates great coaches / managers from the rest of the pack is the ability to see this ahead of time...

Likewise, great managers see players in training that others pass over - but just have the "thing" that translates into a game player. They acquire these players on the cheap and have a player that others passed on...

Its one of the differences in great managers and everyone else - the ability to see talent, and to see something that others don't see, that quality that isn't just in training, but a "gamer"...

Carts...

I 'm not going to argue this because I agree with it - but look at the situation.

Like it or not, these guys are with the team, Winter and Co couldn't get rid of them and bring in players that were genuine keepers and could step into a starting role quick enough.

These guys are working thier ass off and training well. As they are still here and to keep team morale high, these guys are getting playing time. You can't just sit a guy and let him rot on the bench. Sometimes it's more than just - oh he's shit he should never play. There's a human aspect to it as well.

If by the start of next season these guys are still here - then I'll cry foul. It'd be nice to drop at least one of them by the transfer window, but until then...

BFin
06-01-2011, 09:46 AM
Has anyone ever asked why we listened to Klinsmann in the first place? Didn't he recommend Ruud Gullit to the LA Galaxy which resulted in an unmitigated disaster?

trane
06-01-2011, 09:48 AM
^ I understand what you are saing BUT some players will not develop, and do not deserve playing time. You can work your ass off, but just not have what it takes.

On any team there are players that the manager has brought in to fill a certain need, and then when he has seen that they do not cut it, they never see a minute of first team action. That is just the reality. Sure you want to be fair, but no manager should worry about being fair to the point that it costs the team points.

jabbronies
06-01-2011, 09:54 AM
^ I understand what you are saing BUT some players will not develop, and do not deserve playing time. You can work your ass off, but just not have what it takes.

On any team there are players that the manager has brought in to fill a certain need, and then when he has seen that they do not cut it, they never see a minute of first team action. That is just the reality. Sure you want to be fair, but no manager should worry about being fair to the point that it costs the team points.

Are you talking about MLS or overseas? Different animal IMO. The luxury of just sitting someone doesn't exists the same what with roster sizes and salary cap.

Winter didn't bring these guys - he was basically stuck with them.

I'm not sticking up for these guys playing, but I understand why they are playing. I think Winter needs to be more tactful when playing them i.e. don't have more than 1 of them on the field at any given time :P

Hell when I play FIFA11 sometimes I have to bring these guys in for 1 reason or another. Red cards, injuries, just keeping guys fit, changing up the chemistry to try and spark something.

As for Attakora sitting....well. I think it's fucked.

Carts
06-01-2011, 09:58 AM
I 'm not going to argue this because I agree with it.


Hey great minds think alike of course! :D



As for Attakora sitting....well. I think it's fucked.

Again, great minds think alike!

Carts...

Beach_Red
06-01-2011, 10:00 AM
Winter didn't bring these guys - he was basically stuck with them.



He has made a lot of changes since January - sure not an entirely new team but he's never going to get his ideal roster on an MLS team.

It would just be nice to see him getting a little more out of these guys and not getting blown out. After the 4-2 season opener I really thought that would be the worst game of the season. Maybe this last game was the worst of the season. Again, I think it was but we haven't played some of the best teams in the league yet so who knows.

ExiledRed
06-01-2011, 10:37 AM
Has anyone ever asked why we listened to Klinsmann in the first place? Didn't he recommend Ruud Gullit to the LA Galaxy which resulted in an unmitigated disaster?

Its been my biggest question so far.This guy needs to do more at club level before he starts laying cultural foundations for teams he's not going to take responsibility for. The guy is already backtracking and hinting that his suggestions weren't followed to the letter.

trane
06-01-2011, 10:37 AM
^ I do not think it is about them it is about us.

jabbronies
06-01-2011, 10:40 AM
He has made a lot of changes since January - sure not an entirely new team but he's never going to get his ideal roster on an MLS team.

It would just be nice to see him getting a little more out of these guys and not getting blown out. After the 4-2 season opener I really thought that would be the worst game of the season. Maybe this last game was the worst of the season. Again, I think it was but we haven't played some of the best teams in the league yet so who knows.


They have made 15 changes to the roster - that's a lot of fucking players to move. That's why I give him the benefit of the doubt. However, they should be able to get their ideal team, that's why they were brought in - none of the constant tinkering and turnover should be happening.

By the start of next year - they should have at least 90% of their ideal team in place - otherwise they are not doing their job.

Beach_Red
06-01-2011, 10:54 AM
^ Let's hope so. No MLS team has more than 90% of their ideal roster.

menefreghista
06-01-2011, 10:59 AM
The turnover will continue though, that's the nature of MLS. Plus a lot of Winter's guys have been underwhelming and will also have to be replaced.

torontocelt
06-01-2011, 12:46 PM
Winter gets my approval but it would be as the head coach of the kids and he would oversee everything about the youth set up and the new training facilities. I think that is where he would excel, essentially doing a very similar job to that which he done at Ajax. I am unsure about teaching only one 'system' however but his knowledge of training kids to keep the ball on the ground, move into space etc would be invaluable. From the youth set up his influence would impact the first team in four to five years, by then the players coming in would more than know the basics. For first team coach at the moment though, eh no thanks.

Roogsy
06-01-2011, 12:53 PM
^ This. He's never had the job of a head coach of the 1st team so he's essentially learning on the job. Something we didn't need as fans who suffered through the Mo era. From an HR perspective, this is a horrible hiring as it failed to address the immediate needs of the club.

If he had been hired to head up the Academy I would have been ecstatic.

J .
06-01-2011, 01:04 PM
For everyone who is going on about not wanting kick and chase and say our style is improving, we have only had one coach who advocated that style and that was Preki.

ALL of the other coaches came in, preached possession, talked about compact attacking football. GO back and rewatch or read or whatever their pressers.

Do people watch our games? We are not a good looking attacking side, at all. Never-ever have been. I chalk that up to FIVE inexperienced head coaches and one who saw that you cant make gold out of shit.

This obsession with Barcalona, Ajax and all that is doing nothing for our pathetic record in MLS.

How about winning football and an experience coach, doing whatever it takes to win? Winners do what they must to win, losers talk about the style in which they lost.

Im sick of our team being the latter.

P-NUTZ
06-02-2011, 12:01 PM
preki made do with what he could, made ugly football effective and hard to play against, and almost got us into the playoffs if not for key injuries up front that had no substitute.

Now winter has to do the same with WHATEVER he is given/or has. My case is still that this team is not completely shit that they cant squeeze a few more points and reduce a few more goals against.

Winter MUST make/get something better out of this lot to prove he can motivate and manage.

Roogsy
06-02-2011, 12:04 PM
preki made do with what he could, made ugly football effective and hard to play against, and almost got us into the playoffs if not for key injuries up front that had no substitute.

Now winter has to do the same with WHATEVER he is given/or has. My case is still that this team is not completely shit that they cant squeeze a few more points and reduce a few more goals against.

Winter MUST make something better out of this lot to prove he can motivate and manage.


Exactly. Winter so far has not done what Preki was able to do, at least for a short while which is to get the most out of a bad team. The problem with Preki is that he got caught up in non-field stuff that made him untenable as a coach here.

P-NUTZ
06-02-2011, 12:09 PM
^ and MLSE wanted to package him into the big blame game firing blitz with a few weeks left.

Roogsy
06-02-2011, 12:11 PM
^ and MLSE wanted to package him into the big blame game firing blitz with a few weeks left.


They definitely took advantage of the DC game to get rid of him, but with good reason. He came in and immediately started causing big problems right from the start with the owners immediately regretting their decision to bring him in. Going into that midseason dive was basically Preki shooting himself in the foot and giving MLSE the excuse they needed to get rid of him. DC was the last straw.

menefreghista
06-02-2011, 12:33 PM
He came in and immediately started causing big problems right from the start with the owners immediately regretting their decision to bring him in.

Did this have anything to do with the professionalism of the FO? Or was this just Preki digging his own grave early?

I wonder if Preki came in and realized he was dealing with a bunch of clowns.

Roogsy
06-02-2011, 12:49 PM
Did this have anything to do with the professionalism of the FO? Or was this just Preki digging his own grave early?

I wonder if Preki came in and realized he was dealing with a bunch of clowns.


No, no...this one is not on MLSE (other than the fact that they hired him). He came in and right away did some really dodgy things that raised many eyebrows. AND he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. By the time DC came around, they were happy to get rid of him.

profit89
06-02-2011, 08:54 PM
Winter and de Klerk are the best coaching team we've had to date.

I applaud them for not following other MLS teams (like the old guard: for example, Houston or Preki's teams) who stick with the pure crash-and-bang style of MLS 1.0. It may still be successful, but as MLS 1.0 starts winding down, which I argue it is, in the long run you will be better off by following a technical approach. The crash and bang style may win games right now, but it's ugly, and it won't be long before talented teams like LA/NY (with 3 DPs) start winning and thereby start becoming the norm. This requires the right players however. Players with technical ability.

It will take a few more transfer windows to get rid of the crap still hanging around, but we are moving along.

tiberius
06-02-2011, 11:05 PM
Exactly. Winter so far has not done what Preki was able to do, at least for a short while which is to get the most out of a bad team. The problem with Preki is that he got caught up in non-field stuff that made him untenable as a coach here.

oohhh pleeassee - this is just so much crap - out of the fuckin blue Pricki traded Sam Cronin for a bag of fuckin hammers. Robo gone for no fuckin reason - nothing but a pair of stinkin socks to show for him. Marvel Wynne (MLS Champ) sweet fuck all for him too - Preki was absolute evil and never forget it. You are just pissed because of Dero, and this has somehow (temporarily) clouded your view of Pricki. I love Dero, and he was done bad, but for christ sakes don't whitewash the Mo/Pricki era - Pricki will go down in history as the worst EVER in TFC history...:picard:

Shakes McQueen
06-02-2011, 11:16 PM
oohhh pleeassee - this is just so much crap - out of the fuckin blue Pricki traded Sam Cronin for a bag of fuckin hammers. Robo gone for no fuckin reason - nothing but a pair of stinkin socks to show for him. Marvel Wynne (MLS Champ) sweet fuck all for him too - Preki was absolute evil and never forget it. You are just pissed because of Dero, and this has somehow (temporarily) clouded your view of Pricki. I love Dero, and he was done bad, but for christ sakes don't whitewash the Mo/Pricki era - Pricki will go down in history as the worst EVER in TFC history...:picard:

Nowhere in that post did Roogsy endorse the job Preki did as manager of this team, dude. He said Preki was able to get more out of our lineup (for a while), than Winter has been.

He didn't say anything about player transactions Preki made, and I suspect you'd find that he agrees with you.

This is the kind of reactionary, abrasive crap that starts completely unnecessary, acrimonious arguments.

- Scott

Beach_Red
06-02-2011, 11:17 PM
Winter and de Klerk are the best coaching team we've had to date.

I applaud them for not following other MLS teams (like the old guard: for example, Houston or Preki's teams) who stick with the pure crash-and-bang style of MLS 1.0. It may still be successful, but as MLS 1.0 starts winding down, which I argue it is, in the long run you will be better off by following a technical approach. The crash and bang style may win games right now, but it's ugly, and it won't be long before talented teams like LA/NY (with 3 DPs) start winning and thereby start becoming the norm. This requires the right players however. Players with technical ability.

It will take a few more transfer windows to get rid of the crap still hanging around, but we are moving along.

Getting rid of players is easy. Bringing in the players who can win is harder.

Shakes McQueen
06-02-2011, 11:21 PM
Getting rid of players is easy. Bringing in the players who can win is harder.

And on the whole, I'd say Winter and Mariner have done a decent job with the transactions they've made thus far.

They haven't all been great successes, but on the whole, they seem to have a keen eye for talent.

- Scott

profit89
06-02-2011, 11:22 PM
Getting rid of players is easy. Bringing in the players who can win is harder.

Agree. But you need to give a chance for that. To see what he needs and what he doesn't. That does take a little time. And, beyond MLS restrictions, one also is limited by certain international transfer window rules. Can't import whomever, and whenever. Some patience will be required.

Roogsy
06-02-2011, 11:28 PM
oohhh pleeassee - this is just so much crap - out of the fuckin blue Pricki traded Sam Cronin for a bag of fuckin hammers. Robo gone for no fuckin reason - nothing but a pair of stinkin socks to show for him. Marvel Wynne (MLS Champ) sweet fuck all for him too - Preki was absolute evil and never forget it. You are just pissed because of Dero, and this has somehow (temporarily) clouded your view of Pricki. I love Dero, and he was done bad, but for christ sakes don't whitewash the Mo/Pricki era - Pricki will go down in history as the worst EVER in TFC history...:picard:

Not sure what your point was here. My view of Preki had nothing to do with DeRo as my history will point out, I was blasting Preki at the BEGINNING of last year nowhere near the point where DeRo lost it on the front office. Your assumptions are not backed up by the facts when it pertains to me. As for Preki...I am not saying he didn't mess up on the pitch, but it was his screw-ups on the pitch coupled with his shenanigans off the pitch that ticked off management and they decided to get rid of him. There is no way that management would have let him go because he traded away Sam Cronin and he was gone months before Colorado won the MLS Cup with Wynne.

J .
06-05-2011, 03:18 AM
oohhh pleeassee - this is just so much crap - out of the fuckin blue Pricki traded Sam Cronin for a bag of fuckin hammers. Robo gone for no fuckin reason - nothing but a pair of stinkin socks to show for him. Marvel Wynne (MLS Champ) sweet fuck all for him too - Preki was absolute evil and never forget it. You are just pissed because of Dero, and this has somehow (temporarily) clouded your view of Pricki. I love Dero, and he was done bad, but for christ sakes don't whitewash the Mo/Pricki era - Pricki will go down in history as the worst EVER in TFC history...:picard:

Only coach to get us into the Group Stages in CL. Took us on our longest unbeaten streak...

Yeah worst coach in history, the one who brought us the most success.

Dummy.

J .
06-05-2011, 03:24 AM
And on the whole, I'd say Winter and Mariner have done a decent job with the transactions they've made thus far.

They haven't all been great successes, but on the whole, they seem to have a keen eye for talent.

- Scott

Who?

Eckersley, Tchani, Cordon, Gold, and Plata?

Only Eckersley looks like he is bonafide MLS player. Cordon, Tchani, Gold and Plata are prospects, Tchani and Plata blue chip. All far from ready. None should really be starting consistently.

Soolsma, Gold, Martina, Stevanovich, Gordon, Borman, Yourassowsky, Sturgis (if you want to include him, your call), Williams, Bouchiba...

All of them have a lot to prove still, none have been consistent, some have been injured but has anyone on that list really impressed? Not doing one thing impressive, one time, but really put in top performances. I cant say they really are interesting players.

The next transfer window could give us better insight, but if their track record remains the same TFC is in for a very very long season.

J .
06-05-2011, 03:42 AM
No, no...this one is not on MLSE (other than the fact that they hired him). He came in and right away did some really dodgy things that raised many eyebrows. AND he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. By the time DC came around, they were happy to get rid of him.


I think that he was put in a no win situation. He wanted to have full control and he wasnt given it and it made the lockeroom management look awry. TFC and Canadian players in general have had the run of the lockeroom, hence why Dasovic, a player coach, was the preferred choice of DeRo. DeRo really was the leader of the side and when he stopped pulling his weight, the rest of the team collapsed. A

With Preki getting the politics wrong, DeRo stopped playing and Barrett got hurt, our 1-0 wins, 1-1 draws turned into losses. Also he never brought in players to help DeRo and I am sure that frustrated him.

Still he is the closet coach we had to bring some form of success, however fleeting. No other coach gave us such an undefeated streak and so on.

Regardless that is in the past.

The current coaching staff had as much to worth with and have done, much, much less.

torontocelt
06-05-2011, 08:02 AM
Who?

Eckersley, Tchani, Cordon, Gold, and Plata?

Only Eckersley looks like he is bonafide MLS player. Cordon, Tchani, Gold and Plata are prospects, Tchani and Plata blue chip. All far from ready. None should really be starting consistently.

Soolsma, Gold, Martina, Stevanovich, Gordon, Borman, Yourassowsky, Sturgis (if you want to include him, your call), Williams, Bouchiba...

All of them have a lot to prove still, none have been consistent, some have been injured but has anyone on that list really impressed? Not doing one thing impressive, one time, but really put in top performances. I cant say they really are interesting players.

The next transfer window could give us better insight, but if their track record remains the same TFC is in for a very very long season.

Gordon has been impressive when we have seen him and his presence in attack and link up play definitely help the team. Gordon has been injury plagued so so far so I would stop short of saying he has had even a good season but he does look like he could do a good job for us if he were fit and able to play.

bigbamboom
06-06-2011, 06:25 AM
Finally a decent thread with insightful comments and less bickering and complaining - relief!

At first I was thrilled at Mariner/Winter - thinking man we got a decent pair of lads ready to take us to a new level. Then I realized we are utter crap, with the talent we lack and the nucleus we had in place (beyond Frei that is)...now I am thinking Winter at least is learning on the job - as his player selection (Harden, Gargen) and lack of "personality" (I think its common in Surinamer's - stoic, stubborn, straight forward) will piss of NA players a bit - so I went from Thumbs up totally to Thumbs Up slightly.

He needs a chance to coach, and stamp this team his own - and he has chosen a completely new path - which is complicated and radically different...Preki chose the easiest path - which while bringing immediate results was also completely draining to watch....boring, bullshit football.

I chose to stay with Winter and support a radical dream of total football...and perhaps 5 years from now when we have a decent squad...will look back to their hiring as the start of our dynasty - how is that for a change - deluded optimistic thinking on this board.

J .
06-06-2011, 06:33 AM
I chose to stay with Winter and support a radical dream of total football...and perhaps 5 years from now when we have a decent squad...will look back to their hiring as the start of our dynasty - how is that for a change - deluded optimistic thinking on this board.


In five years from now if current trends are not remedied our team will be relocated to Miami. There is no room for perhaps.

brad
06-06-2011, 08:06 AM
Out of curiosity, I decided to measure up how Winter and Co are doing against our first year team at the same point in the season. I understand this is a rebuilding year and results will not be stellar. However, I do not think it's a stretch to expect this team to better than our brand new expansion team did. Especially considering that team was assembled and coached by Mo Johnston and featured the likes of Braz, Reda, Lombardo, Welsch, ect.

Here is how we stack up.

First Year - after 14 games (7 games at BMO):

W: 5
L: 7
T: 2
GF: 17
GA: 23
PTS: 17

Current - after 14 games (9 games at BMO)
W: 2
L: 5
T: 7
GF: 13
GA: 23
PTS: 13

These numbers are telling for me. With more home games, we've won less, scored less, and conceded the same number as the first year team.

For this alone, Winter gets a fail from me.

menefreghista
06-06-2011, 09:23 AM
I chose to stay with Winter and support a radical dream of total football...and perhaps 5 years from now when we have a decent squad...will look back to their hiring as the start of our dynasty - how is that for a change - deluded optimistic thinking on this board.

It doesn't take 5 years to 'rebuild' in MLS. We need to stop buying into this kind of bs.

Carts
06-06-2011, 09:28 AM
Out of curiosity, I decided to measure up how Winter and Co are doing against our first year team at the same point in the season. I understand this is a rebuilding year and results will not be stellar. However, I do not think it's a stretch to expect this team to better than our brand new expansion team did. Especially considering that team was assembled and coached by Mo Johnston and featured the likes of Braz, Reda, Lombardo, Welsch, ect.

Here is how we stack up.

First Year - after 14 games (7 games at BMO):

W: 5
L: 7
T: 2
GF: 17
GA: 23
PTS: 17

Current - after 14 games (9 games at BMO)
W: 2
L: 5
T: 7
GF: 13
GA: 23
PTS: 13

These numbers are telling for me. With more home games, we've won less, scored less, and conceded the same number as the first year team.

For this alone, Winter gets a fail from me.

Seeing it printed out like that, it really shows you how far we've fallen... :(

I know we're "rebuilding" (the MLSE 'Leaf excuse term' of the last 25-years) but to fall to the point where you're worse than you were as an expansion franchise... Disgraceful... :(

Parkdale
06-06-2011, 09:32 AM
Only coach to get us into the Group Stages in CL. Took us on our longest unbeaten streak...

Yeah worst coach in history, the one who brought us the most success.

Dummy.


moderator note:

you can argue the position the person is taking, but don't resort to schoolyard name calling.

Beach_Red
06-06-2011, 09:33 AM
It doesn't take 5 years to 'rebuild' in MLS. We need to stop buying into this kind of bs.


Well, we always hated the previous line we got from the FO that it was hard to bring players into Toronto and the revolving door approach, scrambling to sign players whenever they became available and were willing to come here and trying to make it work.

So now we have a plan that requires a certain type of player, apparently, and it won't work until we get them. Let's hope we get them.

Carts
06-06-2011, 09:41 AM
Well, we always hated the previous line we got from the FO that it was hard to bring players into Toronto and the revolving door approach, scrambling to sign players whenever they became available and were willing to come here and trying to make it work.

So now we have a plan that requires a certain type of player, apparently, and it won't work until we get them. Let's hope we get them.

You gotta wonder why its hard to bring players to Toronto - or why the FO can even try and pass this line off on us...

Toronto Positives:
+ Natural Grass Pitch
+ 15,000+ fans on most matches (with decent weather)
+ One of the best supporters environments in the league
+ Multicultural City
+ Dollar is basically par
+ Our owners aren't going bankrupt - no worries your pay cheque will bounce

Toronto Negative:
+ the team sucks and looks like it always will

Oh yeah, now I see why its hard to bring players in... :(
+

menefreghista
06-06-2011, 09:45 AM
With the quota for Canadians at 3, TFC (and Vancouver) actually have an advantage over American MLS teams, imo. Essentially we get to count both Canadians and Americans as domestics.

I'm tired of all the excuses. Just find the right players. 17 other teams have the same issues we have (cap, low wages, etc).

Plus we have a financial advantage, although that appears to be quickly evaporating right in front of our eyes.

Parkdale
06-06-2011, 09:46 AM
Toronto Positives:
+ Natural Grass Pitch
+ 15,000+ fans on most matches (with decent weather)
+ One of the best supporters environments in the league
+ Multicultural City
+ Dollar is basically par
+ Our owners aren't going bankrupt - no worries your pay cheque will bounce

Toronto Negative:
+ the team sucks and looks like it always will



in the end, if a player wants to play for a winning team, he'll be going elsewhere.

Sure you can get some players on a '2nd wind' of their career (like Le Toux in Philly) but it seems like our owners could only take players like Laurent Robert or Carlos Ruiz and make them WORSE. People like that know that they aren't going to the contenders, so they make do elsewhere and put in the same amount of effort. Again, this all comes down to coaching and management.


There's lots of great things about this city, but a real player will always want to play where winning is an option.

Dreadlocks
06-06-2011, 09:48 AM
I voted 'no' this time simply based on results and the line up decisions Winter has made.

Those who voted 'yes' must be banking on the potential that Winter may have becasue the reality/record shows that we are not even as good as our year one team.

So for this months approval I vote no but overall I'm still on the fence.

Whoop
06-06-2011, 09:51 AM
I think George AND Kramer put it best on the current TFC situation.

HtSpNJ76_UU

oCthOxUuwtU&

Pookie
06-06-2011, 11:53 AM
Out of curiosity, I decided to measure up how Winter and Co are doing against our first year team at the same point in the season. I understand this is a rebuilding year and results will not be stellar. However, I do not think it's a stretch to expect this team to better than our brand new expansion team did. Especially considering that team was assembled and coached by Mo Johnston and featured the likes of Braz, Reda, Lombardo, Welsch, ect.

Here is how we stack up.

First Year - after 14 games (7 games at BMO):

W: 5
L: 7
T: 2
GF: 17
GA: 23
PTS: 17

Current - after 14 games (9 games at BMO)
W: 2
L: 5
T: 7
GF: 13
GA: 23
PTS: 13

These numbers are telling for me. With more home games, we've won less, scored less, and conceded the same number as the first year team.

For this alone, Winter gets a fail from me.

To paint the complete picture, 4 points worse.

From a management of contracts leading into the transfer window, Winter gets a large pass from me.

The 2007 team had a base payroll of $2.3M which gave us zero flexibility against the cap.

Winter's team is current at $2.3M in payroll (using Tchani as a Gen Adidas) giving us quite a bit of flexibility against the $2.65M cap.

If course, this is all ball parked as allocation money is MLS' dirty secret but it appears that Winter/Mariner have cleansed the roster of players that didn't fit their model and gave themselves a decent amount of wiggle room heading into the transfer window.

Remember that a player's cap hit is half of their salary if signed in July. We could conceivably sign a minimum 3 max cap hit type players and fit them under our cap.

Finding them is another story.

Carts
06-06-2011, 12:30 PM
To paint the complete picture, 4 points worse.

From a management of contracts leading into the transfer window, Winter gets a large pass from me.

The 2007 team had a base payroll of $2.3M which gave us zero flexibility against the cap.

Winter's team is current at $2.3M in payroll (using Tchani as a Gen Adidas) giving us quite a bit of flexibility against the $2.65M cap.

If course, this is all ball parked as allocation money is MLS' dirty secret but it appears that Winter/Mariner have cleansed the roster of players that didn't fit their model and gave themselves a decent amount of wiggle room heading into the transfer window.

Remember that a player's cap hit is half of their salary if signed in July. We could conceivably sign a minimum 3 max cap hit type players and fit them under our cap.

Finding them is another story.

We're 4-points WORSE than the same number of games in our EXPANSION SEASON and Winter gets a 'LARGE PASS' from you...

I don't want to see how bad we'd have to get for you to give him a pass, or heaven forbid how bad we'd need to be for him to get a fail...

1-1-11 pass or fail...??? What about 0-0-13...???

I know, I know. I read "he's spent less so has cap room"...

He's cleaned out players with cap hits or allocation money...

At this point - I don't care! WIN...!!!

We're always "looking ahead". 5-year plan, rebuilding our roster, he has cap room so he's doing a fine job - what if that cap room leads to more of the same in the 2nd half (which has been the case every year)...???

When will LOSING be FAILING here at TFC...???

Carts...

TFCRegina
06-06-2011, 12:31 PM
We're 4-points WORSE than the same number of games in our EXPANSION SEASON and Winter gets a 'LARGE PASS' from you...

I don't want to see how bad we'd have to get for you to give him a pass, or heaven forbid how bad we'd need to be for him to get a fail...

1-1-11 pass or fail...??? What about 0-0-13...???

I know, I know. I read "he's spent less so has cap room"...

He's cleaned out players with cap hits or allocation money...

At this point - I don't care! WIN...!!!

We're always "looking ahead". 5-year plan, rebuilding our roster, he has cap room so he's doing a fine job - what if that cap room leads to more of the same in the 2nd half (which has been the case every year)...???

When will LOSING be FAILING here at TFC...???

Carts...

This is why I gave up arguing with him ages ago. Won't see reason. I still think this is the worst team ever fielded in MLS. No lies. We'll be lucky to get 5 wins this season.

Beach_Red
06-06-2011, 12:45 PM
To paint the complete picture, 4 points worse.

From a management of contracts leading into the transfer window, Winter gets a large pass from me.



Has the "management of contracts" been that good? Some contracts have been "managed;" some players have been shipped out, new ones brought in, lots were trialled in pre-season - some signed and many more passed (either them on us or us on them).

We talk as though this is an entire roster that the current management has had zero say over. So far they've made a lot of moves and none of them have made the team competitive in MLS.

Is every team that finished behind TFC last year now ahead? They all inherited contracts and rosters and are 'rebuilding.'

Pachuco
06-06-2011, 12:47 PM
To paint the complete picture, 4 points worse.

From a management of contracts leading into the transfer window, Winter gets a large pass from me.

The 2007 team had a base payroll of $2.3M which gave us zero flexibility against the cap.

Winter's team is current at $2.3M in payroll (using Tchani as a Gen Adidas) giving us quite a bit of flexibility against the $2.65M cap.

If course, this is all ball parked as allocation money is MLS' dirty secret but it appears that Winter/Mariner have cleansed the roster of players that didn't fit their model and gave themselves a decent amount of wiggle room heading into the transfer window.

Remember that a player's cap hit is half of their salary if signed in July. We could conceivably sign a minimum 3 max cap hit type players and fit them under our cap.

Finding them is another story.

You are more then welcomed to have your own opinion on this board. However, Winter gets a large pass from you because Winter hasn't spent as much money as Mo? Really? that's how you justify your rating of Winter?

Brooker
06-06-2011, 12:47 PM
This is why I gave up arguing with him ages ago. Won't see reason. I still think this is the worst team ever fielded in MLS. No lies. We'll be lucky to get 5 wins this season.

Not even close. This place really is in meltdown mode x10.

DichioTFC
06-06-2011, 12:50 PM
^ Yeoman rage level?

menefreghista
06-06-2011, 12:52 PM
Not even close. This place really is in meltdown mode x10.

No way, there is way too much apathy for meltdown mode.

If this was 2009 with this record, that would be a meltdown of epic proportions.

Pachuco
06-06-2011, 12:53 PM
By the way, I voted for on the fence.

This season has been a disaster so far, so there is no way I can give these guys a positive rating based on "they're talk". Right now, that's all they have. They haven't proven they can build a competitive team. they haven't proven they can get results. They haven't even proven at this point that they can play a system that the players buy into. There's nothing but talk at this point, and so they are lucky that atleast I'm on the fence. The only reason I'm not a complete no is because the system they teach, is the system I'd love to watch at BMO day in day out. So I'm still banking that they'll get this right as the season moves forward.

DangerRed
06-06-2011, 01:59 PM
There's nothing but talk at this point, and so they are lucky that atleast I'm on the fence.


I like how you talk as though they would give a shit.

trane
06-06-2011, 02:03 PM
^ They shuold give a shit as to what supporter think, and I think they do.

Pookie
06-06-2011, 02:56 PM
We're 4-points WORSE than the same number of games in our EXPANSION SEASON and Winter gets a 'LARGE PASS' from you...

What I actually said is that "From a management of contracts perspective" Winter gets a large pass. I wasn't talking about the record.

Cap management is a skill in a cap driven league. Good cap management is an asset and for a team looking to overhaul its roster and style of play, cap space is indeed a necessity.

All depends what he does at the transfer window with the cap room. If nothing, then that gets a fail too.

Leading up to the window though, we are in decent shape which is a result of the moves that Winter/Mariner have made.



I don't want to see how bad we'd have to get for you to give him a pass, or heaven forbid how bad we'd need to be for him to get a fail...

We're always "looking ahead". 5-year plan, rebuilding our roster, he has cap room so he's doing a fine job - what if that cap room leads to more of the same in the 2nd half (which has been the case every year)...???


How about you wait till the season is over before you call the record a fail?

If it leads to the same and results in a bottom place finish with no new assets acquired then you (and I) can conclude this season was a failure to improve upon the previous one.

Pookie
06-06-2011, 03:13 PM
Has the "management of contracts" been that good? Some contracts have been "managed;" some players have been shipped out, new ones brought in, lots were trialled in pre-season - some signed and many more passed (either them on us or us on them).

We talk as though this is an entire roster that the current management has had zero say over. So far they've made a lot of moves and none of them have made the team competitive in MLS.

Is every team that finished behind TFC last year now ahead? They all inherited contracts and rosters and are 'rebuilding.'

I wouldn't base your assessment on a 34 game season completely on the first 14. Some might but then again, some people believe they were probed by aliens so logic isn't as common as we'd like.

At this point you have to go on generalities. Yes, the record vs previous seasons isn't as good. So, there are definite warning flags. The team is 3 points shy of a playoff spot. The team hasn't won a host of games but these supposedly vastly superior teams haven't been able to beat us in 7 of those games either.

Winter has indeed managed the cap situation well with a look at the full season which includes 2 transfer windows. He dropped DeRouchebag, whose salary is paid by TFC but the cap doesn't hit us and replaced him with $42k Borman and Gen Adidas, no cap hit Tchani. Other contracts have been moved out and we have quite a lot of cap spending money as we approach the second transfer window.

Worth noting is that Winter has had time to see this roster in action and get a first hand look at his needs. Something that was rushed during the 9-10 weeks between his hiring and the start of the season.

He doesn't get a free pass. This transfer window is time for him to prove he deserves the trust that some of us still have in him.

Clearly, in sports with a salary cap, cap space is arguably one of the most important assets in building a team. For this, I give Winter that "pass" that has a couple of folks all up in arms.

ag futbol
06-06-2011, 03:25 PM
Talent evaluation simply has to get better. You can't waste international spots on guys like Soolsma, Martina, and Stevanović. Those have to be impact players for us, no other way around it.

This year is just about wrote. With MLS contracts guaranteed inter-year there isn't much management can do to fix these mistakes unlike the past where Johnston would chop guys on a whim to bring in new blood.

Winter should start locking himself in the office soon to watch scouting footage otherwise he's going to be at risk shortly into next season.

TFC07
06-06-2011, 03:36 PM
Talent evaluation simply has to get better. You can't waste international spots on guys like Soolsma, Martina, and Stevanović. Those have to be impact players for us, no other way around it.

This year is just about wrote. With MLS contracts guaranteed inter-year there isn't much management can do to fix these mistakes unlike the past where Johnston would chop guys on a whim to bring in new blood.

Winter should start locking himself in the office soon to watch scouting footage otherwise he's going to be at risk shortly into next season.

Agreed, but talent pool in North America isn't very strong. Hard to get NA players who can play in Winter's system. This is why academy is going to be very important for TFC if they want to be successful in Winter's system.

ManUtd4ever
06-06-2011, 03:40 PM
Talent evaluation simply has to get better. You can't waste international spots on guys like Soolsma, Martina, and Stevanović. Those have to be impact players for us, no other way around it.

This year is just about wrote. With MLS contracts guaranteed inter-year there isn't much management can do to fix these mistakes unlike the past where Johnston would chop guys on a whim to bring in new blood.

Winter should start locking himself in the office soon to watch scouting footage otherwise he's going to be at risk shortly into next season.

If I'm not mistaken, this MLS CBA provision does not apply to players with less than 3 years of MLS tenure.

Beach_Red
06-06-2011, 03:42 PM
Agreed, but talent pool in North America isn't very strong. Hard to get NA players who can play in Winter's system. This is why academy is going to be very important for TFC if they want to be successful in Winter's system.


So doesn't it seem odd to use that system in a league that restricts the number of foreign players allowed and with a team that has a history of not being able to attract foreign players?

Do any other MLS teams use this system?

the academy is a nice idea but as we've already seen, it will be very difficult to get players to commit to TFC at an early stage of their careers - there are just too many other options for them to chase.

ag futbol
06-06-2011, 03:48 PM
Agreed, but talent pool in North America isn't very strong. Hard to get NA players who can play in Winter's system. This is why academy is going to be very important for TFC if they want to be successful in Winter's system.
I like the idea of the academy, but honestly there is no way we can count on it for future talent as it stands. There is serious talent leakage problems and restrictions put down by MLS that limit it's use. It can probably become the new "MLS draft" where teams look to stock their rosters full of hard workers as opposed to sublime prospects. The thing is every other MLS team has one too, I've yet to see a great argument why we're doing ours better than anyone else.

Pookie
06-06-2011, 04:17 PM
Out of curiosity, I decided to measure up how Winter and Co are doing against our first year team at the same point in the season. I understand this is a rebuilding year and results will not be stellar. However, I do not think it's a stretch to expect this team to better than our brand new expansion team did. Especially considering that team was assembled and coached by Mo Johnston and featured the likes of Braz, Reda, Lombardo, Welsch, ect.

Here is how we stack up.

First Year - after 14 games (7 games at BMO):

W: 5
L: 7
T: 2
GF: 17
GA: 23
PTS: 17

Current - after 14 games (9 games at BMO)
W: 2
L: 5
T: 7
GF: 13
GA: 23
PTS: 13

These numbers are telling for me. With more home games, we've won less, scored less, and conceded the same number as the first year team.

For this alone, Winter gets a fail from me.

If your conclusion of "fail" is based on the first 14 games vs 2007, if Winter is able to improve on the 2007 record of 1-10-5 over the remaining games (16 in 2007), would you conclude "Success"?

brad
06-06-2011, 04:38 PM
If your conclusion of "fail" is based on the first 14 games vs 2007, if Winter is able to improve on the 2007 record of 1-10-5 over the remaining games (16 in 2007), would you conclude "Success"?

No. Simply being slightly better than our first year team is not success in my opinion. Being worse that it is a failure. An epic one at that. That team sucked. Most of the players were crap, the manager was crap, and so far we are worse than that team. We have less points, despite having more home games. We have less goals scored than the team that holds the record scoreless streak in the MLS. That is dreadful.

Also, I will judge Winter on whether or not we make the playoffs. He stated that it was a goal this year, therefore I have that set as a criteria.

Whoop
06-06-2011, 04:41 PM
I agree.

But there are some here who insist that the talent on the 2007 team was the best we've had so far.

Pookie
06-06-2011, 04:48 PM
^ fair enough.

Debate aside, it will be interesting to see if Winter can improve upon the mid-season drought that has plagued this franchise. If you use your game 14 as the mark, the record over the 2nd half is pathetic:

2007 1-10-5
2008 3-8-5
2009 5-6-5
2010 3-9-4

The 2009 season stands out as a dim-bright spot but that campaign ended with the 5-0 NYRB loss that gifted RSL the last playoff spot... and what turned out to be the MLS Cup

brad
06-06-2011, 05:03 PM
^ fair enough.

Debate aside, it will be interesting to see if Winter can improve upon the mid-season drought that has plagued this franchise. If you use your game 14 as the mark, the record over the 2nd half is pathetic:

2007 1-10-5
2008 3-8-5
2009 5-6-5
2010 3-9-4

The 2009 season stands out as a dim-bright spot but that campaign ended with the 5-0 NYRB loss that gifted RSL the last playoff spot... and what turned out to be the MLS Cup

I really think the make or break is going to be what Winter does in the transfer window. He's cleared cap space, can he bring in the talent we need to be successful. That's the big question mark for me.

Couchy81
06-06-2011, 05:29 PM
I really think the make or break is going to be what Winter does in the transfer window. He's cleared cap space, can he bring in the talent we need to be successful. That's the big question mark for me.

Agreed. This will definitely be the most important transfer window of the past 5 years.

Yohan
06-06-2011, 06:09 PM
Kool Aid drinker's response here

I'm reduced to having my S1 expectations for this year... for the lads to play like they give a damn and gradual improvement as the season goes on. Which isn't being quite met right now, esp playing hard part.

But we're stuck with Winter, for at least foreseeable future. If I was a betting man, probably until mid next season.

There is a lot of bad in this team in this team, but there's a lot of potential. There's a lot of parity in MLS, but it's hard to find the right players than people expect. People keep bringing up NYRB 2010 as example of how TFC should be competitive right now, but IMO NYRB got more lucky than usual and things worked out for them. Do I expect Mariner to make good signings this transfer window? Of course. Do I expect him to get 100% on all his signings to pan out? No. Do I expect all of the signings to make immediate impact? It'd be nice, but not every player can adjust to MLS right away.

A lot of people expect some magic bullets to fix the team right now, but TFC has decided to go on a gradual building route, requiring patience and a lot of commitment. While there are exceptions, but generally, MLS teams tend to get competitive in year and half-two years period. By that time, a team really develops chemistry, something we haven't seen in TFC yet. Yeah, that's a long time for a bunch of frustrated supporters.

But we're stuck with Winter and Mariner... whether we like it or not. So I have my patience, and hope that all works out in the end.

One immediate change I'd like to see is replace Santos with Frei as captain. Santos may make a good vice captain, and I don't know exactly how everything is in the locker room, but to me, Frei is a legit captain material, and certainly willing to man up to the responsibility than other players in TFC.
Sorry Maicon. The way the team plays right now without any heart shows me that you can't motivate your fellow players. Hell, if I was a player, I'd be embarrassed to show my face to the supporters after last couple of performances.

torontocelt
06-06-2011, 06:26 PM
Kool Aid drinker's response here

I'm reduced to having my S1 expectations for this year... for the lads to play like they give a damn and gradual improvement as the season goes on. Which isn't being quite met right now, esp playing hard part.

But we're stuck with Winter, for at least foreseeable future. If I was a betting man, probably until mid next season.

There is a lot of bad in this team in this team, but there's a lot of potential. There's a lot of parity in MLS, but it's hard to find the right players than people expect. People keep bringing up NYRB 2010 as example of how TFC should be competitive right now, but IMO NYRB got more lucky than usual and things worked out for them. Do I expect Mariner to make good signings this transfer window? Of course. Do I expect him to get 100% on all his signings to pan out? No. Do I expect all of the signings to make immediate impact? It'd be nice, but not every player can adjust to MLS right away.

A lot of people expect some magic bullets to fix the team right now, but TFC has decided to go on a gradual building route, requiring patience and a lot of commitment. While there are exceptions, but generally, MLS teams tend to get competitive in year and half-two years period. By that time, a team really develops chemistry, something we haven't seen in TFC yet. Yeah, that's a long time for a bunch of frustrated supporters.

But we're stuck with Winter and Mariner... whether we like it or not. So I have my patience, and hope that all works out in the end.

One immediate change I'd like to see is replace Santos with Frei as captain. Santos may make a good vice captain, and I don't know exactly how everything is in the locker room, but to me, Frei is a legit captain material, and certainly willing to man up to the responsibility than other players in TFC.
Sorry Maicon. The way the team plays right now without any heart shows me that you can't motivate your fellow players. Hell, if I was a player, I'd be embarrassed to show my face to the supporters after last couple of performances.

Have to say Johan when it comes to MLS team and player knowledge you are probably the most insightful poster on the board. While I understand what you say about Santos not being captain material and stripping him of it as he cannot motivate players I would say the blame for that lies more with the management team. Santos might not be ideal, he is certainly no Roy Keane but he does chip in with goals which in its own way is a sign of manning up. For me the motivation of the players has to come from the management and from within each player, I get the impression that the management team cannot motivate the team sufficiently and for me that is very worrying. I would also question why the management team picked Santos to be the captain, again this was a strange choice in my opinion. The problem that TFC has and again this is a worry as it shows a distinct lack of character in the team is that there is in my opinion no stand out candidate for captain. Most good teams usually have several strong candidates, TFC in my opinion lack any. Frei is a good goalie for sure and he is by far the stand out on our team but I am never keen on giving a keeper the captaincy as he is so far back the pitch. For me it has to be a defender or a midfielder as they are closer to the each other and the strikers and they can motivate and get the points across more than someone who is stuck in their goal mouth area. Obviously there has been some excelelnt captians who have been strikers, Shearer for example but for me I would still prefer a defender or a midfielder but it depends entirely on who is best equipped for the job and how influential they are in the team, with their manager and with the fans. I would also fear Frei might leave soon, for his own good I hope he will within the next couple of years.

Yohan
06-06-2011, 06:42 PM
It's not just leading by example, IE chipping in goals or making great stops. A captain has to be able to lead in the locker room more than on the pitch IMO. You can tell telltale signs of whether there is leadership in the locker room.

Having Santos as captain IMO is like having Brennan as captain. Good enough players, not enough leadership in locker room. Now I don't know what Santos's faults are, but if he can't motivate a team to play like they give a damn like KC game after a shitkicking vs Philly the previous week, just how good of a captain is he?

Having a good management helps. But in the locker room IMO, it's not just about how much influence the coach has on the mentality of the player, but it's the captain who should be the real leader in there.

As for keepers not being good captains, I wonder what Oliver Kahn or to bring it to MLS level, Kasey Keller or Faryd Mondragon has to say about that. I bet ya those two are excellent leaders in the locker room.

torontocelt
06-06-2011, 07:02 PM
It's not just leading by example, IE chipping in goals or making great stops. A captain has to be able to lead in the locker room more than on the pitch IMO. You can tell telltale signs of whether there is leadership in the locker room.

Having Santos as captain IMO is like having Brennan as captain. Good enough players, not enough leadership in locker room. Now I don't know what Santos's faults are, but if he can't motivate a team to play like they give a damn like KC game after a shitkicking vs Philly the previous week, just how good of a captain is he?

Having a good management helps. But in the locker room IMO, it's not just about how much influence the coach has on the mentality of the player, but it's the captain who should be the real leader in there.

As for keepers not being good captains, I wonder what Oliver Kahn or to bring it to MLS level, Kasey Keller or Faryd Mondragon has to say about that. I bet ya those two are excellent leaders in the locker room.

Agree what you say about Kahn etc and to be fair I never said keepers dont make good captains, I said i prefer defenders or midfielders. Kahn was one of the best goalies out there, he was very opinionated and he could back it up as he delivered the goods on the biggest stages of them all. Frei for me isn't anywhere near the level of Kahn and he is not as strong a personality as Kahn, no where close. I hate to criticize Frei as he has done a fantastic job but people have said that if he does have a weak point it is organizing his defense. Well when you consider he is a young keeper, still lacking in experience ie playing in a successful team, no international call ups etc, it is a very difficult job for him to organize his defense when they are so inept at even the most simple things. Now like I said this is a minor point for me but if Frei struggles to instruct those in front of him in defense then he will struggle even more with players that are way out in front of him in midfield and in attack especially when playing with wide players. It is a minor thing and you may be right, perhaps he would be a good captain but he would not be my choice.

Pachuco
06-06-2011, 07:15 PM
Frei is vice captain of this team. So how does Yohan's comments even apply here? If the claim is that Maicon can't motivate the players (which we know nothing about) then the same applies to Frei.

EDIT: Oh and I'll add this. Let's pretend for a second Frei isn't a captain right now. You don't start acting like a captain when you are given the armband. It doesn't work that way. Players who act like leaders in the locker room, on the field are selected as captains because of their ability to lead. So regardless of armband, Frei hasn't been inspiring this team either, if you want to blame the captains for the production. Personally, I don't buy the argument.

cochrdoc
06-06-2011, 07:44 PM
I think Winter has under estimated the caliber of this league.The players he has brought in are very average and have not made much of an impact in the league.Naming a captain who has some skill but not a very high work rate and doesn`t win many battles has not helped.We don`t have the talent to win many games and the team has never stepped it up when a game was there to be won.We need some players who refuse to lose and will rally the team.I put to many players on a pedalstool who really have not accomplished much in this league.Hopefully Winter has some players redy to come in.It would be nice to see them training with the team soon so we can sign them when the window opens and we don`t have to wait several weeks to get them in shape.We need to release some players who are not this caliber to play in MLS.Right now we would struggle in Div 2 or 3 with are present team.I keep hoping something is going to happen so things are more positive around the club

denime
06-06-2011, 08:12 PM
Frei is vice captain of this team. So how does Yohan's comments even apply here? If the claim is that Maicon can't motivate the players (which we know nothing about) then the same applies to Frei.

EDIT: Oh and I'll add this. Let's pretend for a second Frei isn't a captain right now. You don't start acting like a captain when you are given the armband. It doesn't work that way. Players who act like leaders in the locker room, on the field are selected as captains because of their ability to lead. So regardless of armband, Frei hasn't been inspiring this team either, if you want to blame the captains for the production. Personally, I don't buy the argument.

True 100%

Roogsy
06-06-2011, 08:40 PM
Frei is vice captain of this team. So how does Yohan's comments even apply here? If the claim is that Maicon can't motivate the players (which we know nothing about) then the same applies to Frei.

EDIT: Oh and I'll add this. Let's pretend for a second Frei isn't a captain right now. You don't start acting like a captain when you are given the armband. It doesn't work that way. Players who act like leaders in the locker room, on the field are selected as captains because of their ability to lead. So regardless of armband, Frei hasn't been inspiring this team either, if you want to blame the captains for the production. Personally, I don't buy the argument.

This, you dont need an armband to be a leader and i certainly dont believe changing the skipper right now is the magic solution for this team.

Yohan
06-06-2011, 09:20 PM
Frei is vice captain of this team. So how does Yohan's comments even apply here? If the claim is that Maicon can't motivate the players (which we know nothing about) then the same applies to Frei.

EDIT: Oh and I'll add this. Let's pretend for a second Frei isn't a captain right now. You don't start acting like a captain when you are given the armband. It doesn't work that way. Players who act like leaders in the locker room, on the field are selected as captains because of their ability to lead. So regardless of armband, Frei hasn't been inspiring this team either, if you want to blame the captains for the production. Personally, I don't buy the argument.
You'd be surprised how some people will react when they have responsibility thrusted upon them. True. Frei is already vice captain but he's not the captain. In my world, the captain leads the team. Vice captain just helps out the captain.

Ultimately, the responsibility is the captain's and the buck really stops with him.

KGH
06-06-2011, 09:34 PM
It's not just leading by example, IE chipping in goals or making great stops. A captain has to be able to lead in the locker room more than on the pitch IMO. You can tell telltale signs of whether there is leadership in the locker room.

Having Santos as captain IMO is like having Brennan as captain. Good enough players, not enough leadership in locker room. Now I don't know what Santos's faults are, but if he can't motivate a team to play like they give a damn like KC game after a shitkicking vs Philly the previous week, just how good of a captain is he?

Having a good management helps. But in the locker room IMO, it's not just about how much influence the coach has on the mentality of the player, but it's the captain who should be the real leader in there.

As for keepers not being good captains, I wonder what Oliver Kahn or to bring it to MLS level, Kasey Keller or Faryd Mondragon has to say about that. I bet ya those two are excellent leaders in the locker room.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Gordon as Captain if he sticks around next year.

ag futbol
06-06-2011, 09:48 PM
I don't mean to be blunt here, but i doubt this team will be acquiring any special powers regardless of who wears a tiny piece of fabric around their arm.

This sounds like the same criticism that was put on various people over the past few years when the blunt fact their teammates simply can't hold their own weight.

We're probably 2 or 3 quality players away from a decent starting lineup but in some very very key positions. Nothing captain Frei, Santos, De Roasio or anyone else can do about that.

Roogsy
06-06-2011, 09:50 PM
I never did understand the fascination with the armband. With one breath we talk about a team game and then with another we speak about how different it would be with a different player on the same team as captain. I've never seen a team change it's colours when the armband is given to someone else.

Whoop
06-06-2011, 09:54 PM
This team has never had any sort of leader(s) on this team.

The constant turnover doesn't help.

ExiledRed
06-06-2011, 11:52 PM
This team has never had any sort of leader(s) on this team.

The constant turnover doesn't help.

Not true, we had Dichio, who would read the game expertly and disrupt the opposition defence and midfield enough to allow the team to move forward and make their plays, and he would rally the team forward like a force of nature.

He was never captain, but when he played, he lead. Although I wanted experience etc... something tells me he's be owning winter right now if he were coaching the first team.

J .
06-07-2011, 01:54 AM
For me the best team we had was the 2009 side, yeah the one that lost 5-0 in NY, but we were competitive and really should have made the playoffs that year. Massive turning point that loss.

Ive still yet to hear an argument for supporting Winter other than people like what he says or they like the idea of attacking football. I just cannot subscribe to any logic without result based evidence, especially in sports and I definately cannot include academy progress because most of that work was done with the previous regime.

Has Winter done anything tangible to prove he deserve a yes vote?

Roogsy
06-07-2011, 01:59 AM
Yes. He's made promises of a brighter future. Surely that's enough to approve of the job he's done so far?

J .
06-07-2011, 02:06 AM
Yes. He's made promises of a brighter future. Surely that's enough to approve of the job he's done so far?


He hasnt even fullfilled his promises in my opinon, I find it hard to believe our side could be considered competitive right now.

Beach_Red
06-07-2011, 08:27 AM
Not true, we had Dichio, who would read the game expertly and disrupt the opposition defence and midfield enough to allow the team to move forward and make their plays, and he would rally the team forward like a force of nature.

He was never captain, but when he played, he lead. Although I wanted experience etc... something tells me he's be owning winter right now if he were coaching the first team.


Agreed. His inexperience as a coach could have been a non-issue if he'd been paired with an MLS-experienced GM, not someone else stepping up to that position for the first time.

And I bet he'd be able to bring in more effective players, too.

123 elite
06-07-2011, 10:07 PM
What I actually said is that "From a management of contracts perspective" Winter gets a large pass. I wasn't talking about the record.

Cap management is a skill in a cap driven league. Good cap management is an asset and for a team looking to overhaul its roster and style of play, cap space is indeed a necessity.

All depends what he does at the transfer window with the cap room. If nothing, then that gets a fail too.

Leading up to the window though, we are in decent shape which is a result of the moves that Winter/Mariner have made.






Stats can be spun any way you want but i don't see the skill in taking a not that great team, trimming the players and therefore the budget and making a poorer team and calling it a triumph of cap management. To be perfectly frank, half the south stand could probably make as good a go of it if they were given the reins. And saying we are in three points of the playoffs is just a load of nonsense. That's the equivalent of Bolton saying in October that they are in running for europe when they are 5 points off 5th place by ignoring the fact that they are 5 points off bottom too. It means nothing. The reality is on the park and most of us can see the reality. And there isn't a system either.

Roogsy
06-07-2011, 11:29 PM
He hasnt even fullfilled his promises in my opinon, I find it hard to believe our side could be considered competitive right now.


I forgot to add a smiley face at the end of my post which was dripping with sarcasm. I hate the interwebz. :drinking:

Roogsy
06-07-2011, 11:31 PM
Stats can be spun any way you want but i don't see the skill in taking a not that great team, trimming the players and therefore the budget and making a poorer team and calling it a triumph of cap management. To be perfectly frank, half the south stand could probably make as good a go of it if they were given the reins. And saying we are in three points of the playoffs is just a load of nonsense. That's the equivalent of Bolton saying in October that they are in running for europe when they are 5 points off 5th place by ignoring the fact that they are 5 points off bottom too. It means nothing. The reality is on the park and most of us can see the reality. And there isn't a system either.


:hurray:

Dkolish3
06-10-2011, 04:57 PM
Can we get a new opinion poll?

buck henry
06-11-2011, 08:23 PM
I am not sure this Dutch vision is suitable to MLS.. I also find it funny that the one year the Dutch make it to the finals in the world cup, they don't play this famous dutch style.

Let him have the year and let's see what happens. At least we'll get the top draft pick.

__wowza
06-13-2011, 08:29 AM
Can we get a new opinion poll?

nerp. opinion polls are tallied up at the end of the month so you can see how they performed retrospectively. the older threads were used to discuss stuff like that, but then became a catch-all for anything to do with how our coach was performing.