Today's News,Friday,May.27

[denime]

Mornin'



TFC-Whitecaps game rescheduled for July 2 (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/05/26/sp-whitecaps-tfc.html)


Head to Head Preview: Toronto FC - Philadelphia Union (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/sports/goal/sow//SIG=14e6l2q0g;_ylt=AkDccWzQdXgnppmLnmMyYQkXRJ54/*http%3A//www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2011/05/26/2505332/head-to-head-preview-toronto-fc-philadelphia-union?synpar=yahoo)


BMO Field To Show UCL Final (http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/05/bmo-field-show-ucl-final)


TFC-'Caps postponed again (http://www.torontosun.com/2011/05/26/tfccaps-postponed-again)


'I wanted to play for TFC': Keven Aleman (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/05/26/sp-tfc-aleman.html)


Coaching changes key for Canada (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/jasondevos/2011/05/coaching-changes-can-shift-canadian-mentality.html)





SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshine-girl)

[Workie]

Love the SSG's tan line!

[Chevy]

SSG "want's to finish high school so she go work in a hospital." Really? Like maybe as, like a cardiothoracic surgeon or something cool like that?

[sashavukelich]

lol, poor girl. If she's 25 and still not finished highschool then her prospects of working in healthcare may not be the greatest.


The Aleman article is interesting, but i think his refusing to sign before the U-17 WC shows enough intent on his part. He wants to be 'shopped out' before signing with TFC clearly. I'd love his talent, but i'm not sure Aron Winter made the wrong move at all.

[flatpicker]

The Aleman article is interesting, but i think his refusing to sign before the U-17 WC shows enough intent on his part. He wants to be 'shopped out' before signing with TFC clearly. I'd love his talent, but i'm not sure Aron Winter made the wrong move at all.

Agreed.
Not sure how the kid can say he was fully committed to TFC,
Yet he wanted to wait until after World Cup.
Obviously he was holding out hope that he might impress some other clubs overseas.
I'm with Winter on this one.

[lobo]

Head to Head Preview: Toronto FC - Philadelphia Union (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/sports/goal/sow//SIG=14e6l2q0g;_ylt=AkDccWzQdXgnppmLnmMyYQkXRJ54/*http%3A//www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2011/05/26/2505332/head-to-head-preview-toronto-fc-philadelphia-union?synpar=yahoo)

"Toronto FC: There have been some glimmers of hope thus far in the season, mostly led by goalkeeper Stefan Frei and solid defense."

17 goals against in 12 games. Solid defense :confused:

[scooter]

mornin d

sounds like sour grapes for aleman -- he does not want to commit to club so club says goodbye --- thats what we asked for no more wishy washy management -- sounds like progress is being made at last and hopefully the message will get out there to other players ie we are not going to be held ransom

[Parkdale]

lol, poor girl. If she's 25 and still not finished highschool then her prospects of working in healthcare may not be the greatest.


hahahahahaha nice

[Redcoe15]

One wonders what that girl has been doing with her life up to this point.

[dupont]

Agreed.
Not sure how the kid can say he was fully committed to TFC,
Yet he wanted to wait until after World Cup.
Obviously he was holding out hope that he might impress some other clubs overseas.
I'm with Winter on this one.

Same here. It didn't sound like he was committed at all the way he was talking there.

[sully]

http://www.csnphilly.com/05/27/11/Union-looking-to-reverse-road-trend-vs-T/news_union.html?blockID=529547&feedID=704

hope they keep up their poor away form...

[Chevy]

One wonders what that girl has been doing with her life up to this point.

Answer below.


http://officialpsds.com/images/thumbs/Stripper-Pole-Platform-psd31561.png

[CretanBull]

Agreed.
Not sure how the kid can say he was fully committed to TFC,
Yet he wanted to wait until after World Cup.
Obviously he was holding out hope that he might impress some other clubs overseas.
I'm with Winter on this one.

I don't see the harm in that. We need talent. If we release the kid, with lose him automatically - no compensation of any sort. If we keep him, there's a chance that he leaves us anyway but also a chance that he stays with us. I don't see the harm in taking that chance - it doesn't cost us anything.

And, not to go negative but...new manager, same old lies - at least there's one constant with our team. Why say that he's leaving to pursue European try outs when the truth is that he was cut for refusing to make an immediate commitment? Why does our FO have to lie about everything?

[menefreghista]

Why does our FO have to lie about everything?

I wonder if that was part of the job description when Winter was hired?

But of course people will just brush it off because they want Winter to succeed so badly he can't possibly be giving us more of the same bs.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

maybe hes not lying and youre both bent on a conspiracy.
could be that the kid wanted to keep his options open after wc and winter, reasonably wanted him to sign with the team before hand, in case options for him arose with a bigger club. TFC isnt a charity and theres no good reason why the kid should be able to train with them for free then walk away with a better offer. Like people would be happier with that?

[jabbronies]

I'm with Winter on this one. The kid is holding out to get a better offer.

This:

"I wanted to play for TFC. I never said I had tryouts anywhere. I never said I wanted to go anywhere. I just said I wanted to wait until after the World Cup. I just wanted to focus on the World and see what would happen after that," Aleman told CBCSports.ca on Thursday


And this:


Aleman maintains he would have considered signing the letter once the tournament in Mexico was over.
"I told them I wanted to stay with TFC. I wanted to play there and I wanted to be with the team. … I [just] wanted to leave the door open until after the World Cup," Aleman said.

Tells me he is hoping to get a tryout somewhere else based on his WC performance.

[CretanBull]

maybe hes not lying and youre both bent on a conspiracy.
could be that the kid wanted to keep his options open after wc and winter, reasonably wanted him to sign with the team before hand, in case options for him arose with a bigger club. TFC isnt a charity and theres no good reason why the kid should be able to train with them for free then walk away with a better offer. Like people would be happier with that?

I'm sure that's exactly what happened, but that's not what Winter said was it? Winter said that he left to pursue trials in Europe - which isn't true. I understand TFC postion perfectly well, I'm not even commenting on that, I'm commenting on them - once again - lying about it.

Winter said "These players have decided not to commit to our academy in order to pursue tryouts overseas." That's a lie. When its in black and white like that how can you say "maybe he isn't lying" and accuse me of some wild conspiracy theory? He blatantly said something that wasn't true.

(A few side points, when we release him we lost our right to compensation. Had we not released him and he left for a bigger club we'd be owed compensation. Also, based on what I've been told, TFC weren't offering him a contract at all, they wanted him to sign a letter of intent - a promise to sign for TFC in the future, not now).

[v00d00daddy]

I don't see the harm in that. We need talent. If we release the kid, with lose him automatically - no compensation of any sort. If we keep him, there's a chance that he leaves us anyway but also a chance that he stays with us. I don't see the harm in taking that chance - it doesn't cost us anything.

And, not to go negative but...new manager, same old lies - at least there's one constant with our team. Why say that he's leaving to pursue European try outs when the truth is that he was cut for refusing to make an immediate commitment? Why does our FO have to lie about everything?


Hahahaha...You, Roogsy and Mene deserve one big thread where you can pretend to be somewhat, kinda sorta, maybe okay with Winter to save face when you're proven wrong.

Not to go negative but.....the coach is a liar.

What a joke.



I wonder if that was part of the job description when Winter was hired?

But of course people will just brush it off because they want Winter to succeed so badly he can't possibly be giving us more of the same bs.

Chicken v. Egg argument. You're so scarred by previous management that you see anything but dominance on the field as same old same old.

Whatever. You're nickname says it all.


maybe hes not lying and youre both bent on a conspiracy.
could be that the kid wanted to keep his options open after wc and winter, reasonably wanted him to sign with the team before hand, in case options for him arose with a bigger club. TFC isnt a charity and theres no good reason why the kid should be able to train with them for free then walk away with a better offer. Like people would be happier with that?

+1

If TFC had capitulated to his demands and he stayed here, and then done well, and moved on to a bigger club with nothing in return (which is what could happen without him commiting to the club) people would ALSO call the coach and manager incompetent and liars.

It's a lose lose for Winter and Co. in many peoples eyes.

Whatever.

We're just gonna keep hearing junk like:

I don't mind Winter but he's:

-a bad manager
-a bad coach
-a liar
-a hard ass

All until this team is good (and I think they will be) and then there will be a few people around here that will have nothing to say but "I was wrong".

And something tells me that won't happen.

LOL

Aleman and TFC parted ways. It happens. It's not maniacal or evil. It's just what happens from time to time.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Whos to say the kid is telling the truth?
Winter did not necessary lie either as We havent heard from the other two btw, only Keven.

They decided not to sign a letter of intent.
Why would they do that?

I dont believe for a second that having him train with us for free, then leave us for free is the best idea, as well as people would happy to receive it as such.

Man, i understand your skepticism regarding the old guard the new one has given us no reason not to believe them (ignore the fact that MLSE owns the team).

[Pigfynn]

Or maybe it's as simple as the other two players do have euro trials set up and Winter's statement is two thirds correct and we get all worked up over very, very little.

[ManUtd4ever]

Based on the preliminary scouting reports on Aleman, I'm disappointed that he is no longer part of the organization.

However, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that based on their extensive background with the Ajax Youth Academy, Aron Winter and Bob DeClerk have the necessary credentials to make the appropriate judgement call regarding Aleman, or any of the other prospects in the TFC Academy.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Aleman and TFC parted ways. It happens. It's not maniacal or evil. It's just what happens from time to time.

yep exactly

[Whoop]

Didn't Aleman have a trial with Bayern?

And TFC wanted to keep him. I don't see where TFC didn't want to keep him.

[v00d00daddy]

However, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that based on their extensive background with the Ajax Youth Academy, Aron Winter and Bob DeClerk have the necessary credentials to make the appropriate judgement call regarding Aleman, or any of the other prospects in the TFC Academy.

No way man. They know nothing about coaching a senior team and nothing about developing young players successfully.

Pseudo player agents and debbie downers know better.

(ps that was a poor attempt at sarcasm...I agree with you 100%)
LOL

[Couchy81]

Regarding Aleman,

1+_=2

I think we can all fill in the blank here.

Winter made the right call for the team.

[JuliquE]

Winter said "These players have decided not to commit to our academy in order to pursue tryouts overseas." That's a lie. When its in black and white like that how can you say "maybe he isn't lying" and accuse me of some wild conspiracy theory? He blatantly said something that wasn't true.
To be fair, I don't think you are taking into account the full context:

a] English is his second language and maybe he said "pursue tryouts overseas," because that's, ultimately, the hope when you leave your options open -- that you get a tryout

b] as someone else has pointed out, he may have just lumped everyone together.. when, in actuality, just one or two of them had a tryout or tryouts lined up

c] people who don't speak English as a first language will sometimes not be as clear/specific as they should be and you would look silly to be splitting hairs; generalities help make things easier for them

[Ron Manager]

Or maybe it's as simple as the other two players do have euro trials set up and Winter's statement is two thirds correct and we get all worked up over very, very little.

Exactly. The main point in all this is the club management is being very consistent in saying we only want those who want to be here. Doesn't matter if you're Dero or one of our brightest academy prospects, no one is bigger than the club.
These things happen in Europe all the time.

[CretanBull]

Hahahaha...You, Roogsy and Mene deserve one big thread where you can pretend to be somewhat, kinda sorta, maybe okay with Winter to save face when you're proven wrong.

Not to go negative but.....the coach is a liar.

What a joke.


For the record, I do like Winter and what he's doing with the team on the field and have never said otherwise. I don't want Winter fired. I don't hate him. What I don't like is what seems like continuation of past FO bad habbits carried over by the new management team. NOTHING would make me more happy than being wrong. I will rejoice in being wrong. I will wear being wrong like a badge of honour! But right now, I don't see it.



Chicken v. Egg argument. You're so scarred by previous management that you see anything but dominance on the field as same old same old.

Whatever. You're nickname says it all.


I am scarred by previous management, because I see elements from them that I didn't like cropping up int he new management. IMO thats because while the manager changed, the FO and it's culture didn't change. I'm not bitching and complaining because we aren't winning - you couldn't be more off base with that accusation. My teams are my teams, win or lose, thick or thin. I'm a life long Leeds fan, I was as passionate about them when they were in the 3rd division as I was when they were in the Champions League. I have NO problems, issues or gripes about supporting a losing team. I do have a problem with dishonesty though. I find it very hard to support a team that doesn't share my values.



If TFC had capitulated to his demands and he stayed here, and then done well, and moved on to a bigger club with nothing in return (which is what could happen without him commiting to the club) people would ALSO call the coach and manager incompetent and liars.


No, releasing him now means losing him for nothing in return. Having him registered with us and then leaving us entitles us to compensation. If nothing else, we've given up our right of compensation by releasing him now and not waiting for him to go somewhere else. Had Alemen left us, I probably would have questioned why and wondered if we could have done more to keep him depending on where he ended up. If he ends up at Munich, then no complaints from me - there's nothing we can do to compete with them. If he ends up at 2nd division team in Norway, then yes I'd probably feel like our club didn't do enough to keep him. In either event, I wouldn't call them liars if they didn't lie.



It's a lose lose for Winter and Co. in many peoples eyes.


Maybe, but not in mine. Tell the truth and there will at least be a moral win regardless of the outcome.



Whatever.

We're just gonna keep hearing junk like:

I don't mind Winter but he's:

-a bad manager
-a bad coach
-a liar
-a hard ass


Other than calling him a liar when he lied and questioned some of his moves as manager (which EVERYONE has done) I haven't done these things.



All until this team is good (and I think they will be) and then there will be a few people around here that will have nothing to say but "I was wrong".

And something tells me that won't happen.

LOL


If the team is horrible but honest I'll have far less complaints than if we win the league and are dishonest. As I've said countless times, while I want the club to do well and win it's not a factor in my supporting them. Acting professionally and being honest is.



Aleman and TFC parted ways. It happens. It's not maniacal or evil. It's just what happens from time to time.


TFC released Aleman. Its not manical or evil and it does happen from time to time. It's dumb, because if we waited a month we would have gotten compenation if he left, but that's not even my issue. My problem is with the misrepresentation. EVERYONE here agrees that TFC cut him lose because he wouldn't commit to the club before the U-17 WC, so why not just be honest and say that?

[JuliquE]

EVERYONE here agrees that TFC cut him lose because he wouldn't commit to the club before the U-17 WC, so why not just be honest and say that?
LAUL

[CretanBull]

Didn't Aleman have a trial with Bayern?

Someone here mentioned that, but I haven't heard anyone that I know say that. There's no way that he'd be trialling with Bayern, but moving to their academy is within the realm of posibility IMO. Again, I haven't heard that but I wouldn't dissmiss it as being possible.



And TFC wanted to keep him. I don't see where TFC didn't want to keep him.


He didn't leave the team, they released him.

[Whoop]

But isn't that what they said?



“We ask that our Academy players sign a letter of commitment, which is an agreement between our club and player that they will receive the best training and development opportunities, with the goal of reaching the first team,” said Toronto FC Head Coach and Technical Director Aron Winter. “These players have decided not to commit to our Academy in order to pursue tryouts overseas.”


If they don't want to commit to the club, isn't it likely because they want to pursue tryouts overseas at some point in the near future?

If they didn't want to pursue tryouts overseas then they would have no problem committing, no?

[Whoop]

He didn't leave the team, they released him.

Again, chicken vs. egg.

They released him because he didn't want to commit to the team.

If he committed to the team, they would have kept him.

It's not like they released him after he committed to the team.

[ManUtd4ever]

My problem is with the misrepresentation. EVERYONE here agrees that TFC cut him lose because he wouldn't commit to the club before the U-17 WC, so why not just be honest and say that?

I'm confused by this comment. Isn't that exactly what Winter alluded to in his public statement?

He specifically stated that the 3 Academy players were released because they refused to sign letters of intent. He then suggested that they would pursue options overseas, which may in fact be accurate for 2 of the 3 players.

Why speculate in order to scrutinize the decisions of TFC's Technical Director who has more industry related experience than everyone on this forum combined?

Honestly, at times it appears as though Mo Johnston never left the organization. Aron Winter is unjustly criticized because of the reputation of his predecessor.

[Beach_Red]

Isn't the issue more that TFC academy is brand new, TFC haven't proved anything to anyone in the soccer world yet and they're asking to be treated like an established, successful operation?

At this point in their rather shaky history it seems that TFC would need to be a little more flexible with players than Ajax.

[Whoop]

That's what I alluded to in an early thread about possibly being more flexible in a World Cup year.

But at what point do you lay down ground rules?

What does it say to the other guys when they've signed a commitment to the team, but others don't? Why have commitments at all?

[Beach_Red]

That's what I alluded to in an early thread about possibly being more flexible in a World Cup year.

But at what point do you lay down ground rules?

What does it say to the other guys when they've signed a commitment to the team, but others don't? Why have commitments at all?

Sure, someday you have to lay down ground rules and there may be some debate about when is the right time, but it would ge very hard to make a case that NOW is the time for TFC.

[ManUtd4ever]

Isn't the issue more that TFC academy is brand new, TFC haven't proved anything to anyone in the soccer world yet and they're asking to be treated like an established, successful operation?

At this point in their rather shaky history it seems that TFC would need to be a little more flexible with players than Ajax.

I disagree. The protocols have to remain consistent from inception.

Keep in mind, other than a few prestigious European clubs, TFC will face similar challenges with their top prospects as any other Academy in the world.

[dow117]

Didn't the same thing happen to Attokara: sign now or ( you're on the bench / shopped ). Aleman , sign now or your gone, DeRo , sign now or your gone !!! ... just sayin ....these the new rules ??

[ManUtd4ever]

Didn't the same thing happen to Attokara: sign now or ( you're on the bench / shopped ). Aleman , sign now or your gone, DeRo , sign now or your gone !!! ... just sayin ....these the new rules ??

None of these situations are analagous though...

[CretanBull]

To be fair, I don't think you are taking into account the full context:

a] English is his second language and maybe he said "pursue tryouts overseas," because that's, ultimately, the hope when you leave your options open -- that you get a tryout

Its possible that language is an issue, but his comments were pretty specific and not ambiguous (ie "pursuing tryouts overseas" vs a more generic "wants to keep his options open" - it leaves the impression that won't committ because he is going overseas and not waiting to see what happens after the WC).



b] as someone else has pointed out, he may have just lumped everyone together.. when, in actuality, just one or two of them had a tryout or tryouts lined up


Again, possible but why would you do this? Obviously he isn't going to sit there and lay out the career path of each released player but why pick one option and lump them altogether and misrepresent the others?



c] people who don't speak English as a first language will sometimes not be as clear/specific as they should be and you would look silly to be splitting hairs; generalities help make things easier for them


The problem with the "overseas" comment wasn't that it wasn't clear or specific - its that it was so precise that it wasn't true.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

do you know for certain the other two do not have trials overseas?

[Whoop]

Wouldn't the reason you don't want to commit to the Academy is because you do want to try and get a tryout overseas?

[CretanBull]

But isn't that what they said?

If they don't want to commit to the club, isn't it likely because they want to pursue tryouts overseas at some point in the near future?

If they didn't want to pursue tryouts overseas then they would have no problem committing, no?

I think it goes without saying that every kid dreams of playing in Europe, but Winter coupled the fact that they wouldn't committ to TFC now with their pursuit of going overseas and - atleast in Aleman's case - that's not true. Keep in mind we're talking about a 16 year old who's being pressured to make a decision that will effect the rest of his life.



Again, chicken vs. egg.

They released him because he didn't want to commit to the team.

If he committed to the team, they would have kept him.

It's not like they released him after he committed to the team.

I only make the distinction because others have argued that releasing him now makes sense - why train him if he'll leave for nothing later? - but the opposite is true. If we release him now, we lose him for nothing -releasing him him forfeits our right to future compensation for his training. If we keep him and he leaves us (vs us releasing him) we're entitled to compensation for his training. So even if we're resigned to the fact that he won't be with us, its in our own best interest to not release him and to let him leave.

[ManUtd4ever]

Wouldn't the reason you don't want to commit to the Academy is because you do want to try and get a tryout overseas?

No, it's better to assume that Winter is incompetent and does not have the best interests of the organization at heart.

[Whoop]

Rest of his life?

He's already trained with the first team. More than likely would be playing with the first team by the time he was 18.

It happens in every sport. An 18 year old player eligible for the MLB draft has to make a decision to sign with a pro team - even if it's for a little bit of money - or go the NCAA route. Same thing in hockey when deciding between CHL or NCAA. Same with Corey Joseph coming up with in the NBA draft. He's signed with an agent, and left school early, and there's no guarantee he'll even be drafted.

But in order for TFC to get compensation, wouldn't Aleman have to sign a commitment to the Academy now anyway?

[bdiddy]

If i'm a coach - and a kid tells me what Aleman tells me, I take it that he'd rather try his chances elsewhere. The fact that Aleman admits he wanted to wait until after the WC - shows he was looking to "pursue" other opportunities, whether the tryouts were now or in the future, its the idea of pursuing other opportunities.

I think sometimes Cretan your looking for some extra conspiracy where there's not.

If he wasn't pursuing other opportunities, why wouldn't he just sign and accept it? Were crying over one player that hasn't ever done anything for TFC yet and might never do anything.

Thats one thing about prospects, they are just that. Not established.


I'm sure that's exactly what happened, but that's not what Winter said was it? Winter said that he left to pursue trials in Europe - which isn't true. I understand TFC postion perfectly well, I'm not even commenting on that, I'm commenting on them - once again - lying about it.

Winter said "These players have decided not to commit to our academy in order to pursue tryouts overseas." That's a lie. When its in black and white like that how can you say "maybe he isn't lying" and accuse me of some wild conspiracy theory? He blatantly said something that wasn't true.

(A few side points, when we release him we lost our right to compensation. Had we not released him and he left for a bigger club we'd be owed compensation. Also, based on what I've been told, TFC weren't offering him a contract at all, they wanted him to sign a letter of intent - a promise to sign for TFC in the future, not now).

[Nodoubtguy]

Wouldn't the reason you don't want to commit to the Academy is because you do want to try and get a tryout overseas?

I don't see what else it could have been.....he wanted to see other options after the WC, which means to see if he could get tryouts or offers somewhere else. It's pretty straight forward to me. If he wanted to stay at TFC, he would have committed.

[ManUtd4ever]

I think it goes without saying that every kid dreams of playing in Europe, but Winter coupled the fact that they wouldn't committ to TFC now with their pursuit of going overseas and - atleast in Aleman's case - that's not true. Keep in mind we're talking about a 16 year old who's being pressured to make a decision that will effect the rest of his life.




I only make the distinction because others have argued that releasing him now makes sense - why train him if he'll leave for nothing later? - but the opposite is true. If we release him now, we lose him for nothing -releasing him him forfeits our right to future compensation for his training. If we keep him and he leaves us (vs us releasing him) we're entitled to compensation for his training. So even if we're resigned to the fact that he won't be with us, its in our own best interest to not release him and to let him leave.

Are you certain that TFC would have been entitled to compensation in the near future for training Aleman considering that he refused to sign of a letter of intent?

If so, what would the compensation amount to? $10,000? $20,000?

It seems like a risky proposition to invest time and financial resources into developing a prospect that isn't committed to the franchise long term at the expense of another prospect that could otherwise gain valuable experience.

At best, the potential compensation would be offset by the expenses incurred to train the prospect beyond the period in which he hasn't signed a letter of intent with the franchise.

[bdiddy]

Also - i think its worth noting that we have no idea what Aleman told Winter/etc when they first met. Maybe in the discussions he mentioned how the reason he doesn't want to sign yet is he wants to see of opportunities open up overseas and wants to wait until after the WC. Good on Aleman for being open and honest.

But the club needs to have rules it goes by - that everyone is kept too.

So i think it sucks that were judging what someone said in the past, by what someone just said now... There's lots of time in between to re-phrase your thoughts, especially to the press.

[CretanBull]

Wouldn't the reason you don't want to commit to the Academy is because you do want to try and get a tryout overseas?

According to the kid he wanted to keep his options opened until after the WC, I'm sure that one of the options that he wanted to keep open was the HOPE of getting noticed by a European club, but Winter's comments were more definitive...by the kids own words, he wanted to stay here, he didn't want to leave etc. he just wanted to see what his options were before committing.

The reason why I'm splitting hairs is because its a pattern with our FO of shedding responsibility and maligning others (even if its subtle). The facts of this story is that TFC are releasing the players because they won't committ when the team wants them to. I have no problem or issue with that at all, NONE. My issue is - and its a pattern with our team - with the spin. According to them, they're not releasing the players because they won't conform they're "parting ways" because the kids want to go to Europe. We have a five year history of struggling with honesty.

[Whoop]

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/TorontoFC/2011/05/21/18177496.html



According to multiple sources who spoke with the Sun, Aleman had been generating heavy interest from some of the biggest teams in Germany, including Bayern Munich and did not want to sign a contract holding himself to TFC when he potentially could cash in by heading to Europe.


And at 17, he could have been playing with TFC next year when he turned 18.

But why commit for a year when he could, maybe, potentially, be going overseas after the WC?

[Nodoubtguy]

According to the kid he wanted to keep his options opened until after the WC, I'm sure that one of the options that he wanted to keep open was the HOPE of getting noticed by a European club, but Winter's comments were more definitive...by the kids own words, he wanted to stay here, he didn't want to leave etc. he just wanted to see what his options were before committing.


he didn't want to leave but was looking for other options??? makes no sense to me. If he didn't want to leave, he would have committed to staying.

[Beach_Red]

No, it's better to assume that Winter is incompetent and does not have the best interests of the organization at heart.

Given that it's accepted that every kid wants to go play in Europe, it would seem the "best interest" of TFC has to be handled a little differently than that of a European team. No one thinks Winter can't run the Ajax academy, but can this one be run the same way?

In many ways this is new territory and it will have to be worked out. It's possible that the European method won't translate exactly.

Anyway, it'll take a few years to find out.

[CretanBull]

But in order for TFC to get compensation, wouldn't Aleman have to sign a commitment to the Academy now anyway?

There are a few variables (like if he leaves us for a pro team or leaves us for another academy etc) but in essense, the act of him leaving us leaves us with rights of compensation - releasing him forfeits those rights.

[Whoop]

But he would have to commit in order to leave....

[CretanBull]

But he would have to commit in order to leave....

No, he was registered with us. Siging with us would have given us a transfer fee etc. but even without a contract if a registered player leaves a team the next team that he registers with owes the previous team for the cost of his prior training (again, with the variables mentioned above)

[Whoop]

How much would the compensation be? $10,000? $20,000? Even $50,000?

If he commits, then the transfer fee would likely be more than just $50,000 I would imagine.

[Joe Kool]

I think this is just the start of what will be a trend with the Academy being built up and the attraction of the new facilities that will be put into place. Players will look at it as a step in their development but if the time and money is spent on them they should really commit at least to a couple of years at TFC before moving on. I have no issues with players saying upfront that they won't commit so then TFC won't either. You just can't have your cake and eat it too. Aleman looked like a good prospect and "errr.....tis pity" he won't stay but such is life. He may come back at some point being from Brampton as a more developed player and if willing to commit at that point then fine.

[denime]

Someone here mentioned that, but I haven't heard anyone that I know say that. There's no way that he'd be trialling with Bayern, but moving to their academy is within the realm of posibilityIMO. Again, I haven't heard that but I wouldn't dissmiss it as being possible.

He didn't leave the team, they released him.


I mention about the trial to Bayern and yes it would be academy,still you need tryouts in order to get in,considering that he does not have European passport any club in EU that wants to sign him even if it is for academy would would have to pay him minimum 140 K euro per year,European player cost $40 K.You do the math,there is a slim chance Canadian kids without European passports to get signed unless he is another Messi.

and slightly of topic,

Last night I was told from a source very close to our new management that Winter is making all decisions and no one from ML$E is interfering or even asking why this or that.
He is 100% safe for another year,or better to say until 2/3 into a next season,by that time his results will be measured,until than he does not have to look over his shoulder and he can concentrate on team and academy.
They are looking for a striker and RVN is not coming for sure he will sign with Malaga or Mallorca.

The roumor is they might go after Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink or Danny Koevermans from PSV,he is a free agent .

Will they go after any of them no one knows,they really keep info for them selves.

cheers

[Roogsy]

Winter made the right call for the team.

Maybe it's best to leave this in the Academy thread, but in what world is this the "right" call? Instead of possibly losing him for nothing, but also possibly keeping the ability to sell him for a profit or even possibly signing him to a pro contract, we now are guaranteed to lose him for nothing and no possibilities of gaining revenue on a sale or finding him on the roster unless we sign him as an unrestricted free agent?

In the one scenario, positive, profitable options are still on the table, on the other, they are not, the doors are closed. How does that benefit the team exactly?

[denime]

How much would the compensation be? $10,000? $20,000? Even $50,000?

If he commits, then the transfer fee would likely be more than just $50,000 I would imagine.

Depend how long is he with TFC,year or two we are talking between 5-10 K max.

[Roogsy]

Last night I was told from a source very close to our new management that Winter is making all decisions and no one from ML$E is interfering or even asking why this or that.

Interesting since I heard differently. Although my source tells me that it isn't MLSE that is interfering.

[Gazza]

I want to be at TFC but i won't commit until better teams have had a look at me on the world stage. That's what i took from Aleman's comments, and all the power to him.

Sign now or we will have to release you, is Winter's stand.

I don't see what the problem is on either side. Winter probably realizes this kid will eventually be snapped up after the u-17's which is why he gave him the ultimatum. Winter signs him now and has a good young asset to either develop or to sell for a profit down the road. He goes unsigned to the u-17's and he'll end up someone else's property anyway.

Both tried to do what's best for themselves and this was the outcome. Shake hands and move on.

[denime]

Interesting since I heard differently. Although my source tells me that it isn't MLSE that is interfering.

ML$E,Anselmi, doesn't matter,Winter is the one making calls,that the whole point.

[Roogsy]

ML$E,Anselmi, doesn't matter,Winter is the one making calls,that the whole point.

I understand what you mean by MLSE, my point is that my source doesn't point to MLSE as interfering in any way with what Winter is doing. But Winter is not making "all the calls".

[Whoop]

Depend how long is he with TFC,year or two we are talking between 5-10 K max.

So if he doesn't commit to the club and TFC lets him stay until the WC and then he signs with another club overseas, the club gets $10K... I'll even be generous and say $50K.

But if he commits to TFC and a team wants him after the WC, then couldn't TFC say demand $250+K for a transfer fee?

[Nodoubtguy]

The roumor is they might go after Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink or Danny Koevermans from PSV,he is a free agent .


That would make for a great jersey

[maninb]

Anybody attacking Winter over these kids leaving needs to have their heads checked...

[CretanBull]

Anybody attacking Winter over these kids leaving needs to have their heads checked...

Why bring this up when after three pages of discussion no one has attacked Winter for releasing the players?

[Auzzy]

I understand what you mean by MLSE, my point is that my source doesn't point to MLSE as interfering in any way with what Winter is doing. But Winter is not making "all the calls".

So, can you tell us who is supposedly interfering?

I expect he is working together with Mariner on some issues, but beyond that...???

[los sonadores]

maybe hes not lying and youre both bent on a conspiracy.
could be that the kid wanted to keep his options open after wc and winter, reasonably wanted him to sign with the team before hand, in case options for him arose with a bigger club. TFC isnt a charity and theres no good reason why the kid should be able to train with them for free then walk away with a better offer. Like people would be happier with that?

Totally agree with this. The FO has a history of duplicity, it's true (especially under Ansemli-Mo) but I don't see that in this case.

[Dbl_D]

So if he doesn't commit to the club and TFC lets him stay until the WC and then he signs with another club overseas, the club gets $10K... I'll even be generous and say $50K.

But if he commits to TFC and a team wants him after the WC, then couldn't TFC say demand $250+K for a transfer fee?

the kid sounds like he wants his cake and eat it to... forgoing whatever transfer fee that could have been made... by letting him go it becomes easier to explore these options as any offers don't have to worry about any pay out... the kid should be thanking Winter...

the problem is since he didn't commit, & no offers arrive (or the offers go no where) then he has nothing fall back on, he now is realizing this, thus the pr... but sadly this pr will make him even less attractive... (I feel sorry for him if an 'agent' advised him not to sign)


Anybody attacking Winter over these kids leaving needs to have their heads checked...+100

new topic...

[denime]

I understand what you mean by MLSE, my point is that my source doesn't point to MLSE as interfering in any way with what Winter is doing. But Winter is not making "all the calls".

ok let's try again

Winter is making all calls after going trough the topic with Mariner and De Klark,still no one above them is interfering and that is a good news for me,was this good enough or did I missed something?If you have different info all together,please share with us.


So, can you tell us who is supposedly interfering?

I expect he is working together with Mariner on some issues, but beyond that...???

That was my whole point,but for Roggsy if you don't word it 100% correctly and explain it so that 5 year old kid understand,watch out he will:poke: right away.

[Couchy81]

Maybe it's best to leave this in the Academy thread, but in what world is this the "right" call? Instead of possibly losing him for nothing, but also possibly keeping the ability to sell him for a profit or even possibly signing him to a pro contract, we now are guaranteed to lose him for nothing and no possibilities of gaining revenue on a sale or finding him on the roster unless we sign him as an unrestricted free agent?

In the one scenario, positive, profitable options are still on the table, on the other, they are not, the doors are closed. How does that benefit the team exactly?

Because recruits coming through the system will see this and think "maybe I should stick with TFC until I'm on the first team and prove myself there" instead of using the Academy to train for a short stint before bailing.

The Academy is a crucial part of our future success, we don't want to be pushovers when it comes to contracts. Having a kid train here until a tryout in Europe presents intself is a waste of our resources and time, and he's taking up the spot of another kid who we could use on the first team down the line.

I don't know the details of the contract they are trying to get them to sign, but I'm sure its not something that will lock them up for life. Just stick with the Academy and either make the first team or part ways without wasting our time.

[Chevy]

the kid sounds like he wants his cake and eat it to... forgoing whatever transfer fee that could have been made... by letting him go it becomes easier to explore these options as any offers don't have to worry about any pay out... the kid should be thanking Winter...

the problem is since he didn't commit, & no offers arrive (or the offers go no where) then he has nothing fall back on, he now is realizing this, thus the pr... but sadly this pr will make him even less attractive... (I feel sorry for him if an 'agent' advised him not to sign)

+100

new topic...


Very well said. Why should the club pay his frieght while he looks for a better gig elsewhere?

Good luck to him, but I'm glad Winter told him to put his big kid pants on. "You wanna be a big Euro football star?" Go ahead and give it your best shot.

[dow117]

According to the kid he wanted to keep his options opened until after the WC, I'm sure that one of the options that he wanted to keep open was the HOPE of getting noticed by a European club, but Winter's comments were more definitive...by the kids own words, he wanted to stay here, he didn't want to leave etc. he just wanted to see what his options were before committing.

The reason why I'm splitting hairs is because its a pattern with our FO of shedding responsibility and maligning others (even if its subtle). The facts of this story is that TFC are releasing the players because they won't committ when the team wants them to. I have no problem or issue with that at all, NONE. My issue is - and its a pattern with our team - with the spin. According to them, they're not releasing the players because they won't conform they're "parting ways" because the kids want to go to Europe. We have a five year history of struggling with honesty.

Bang on !!!