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Nestease
05-20-2011, 01:41 AM
http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/05/academy-parts-ways-three


Toronto FC announced Thursday that they have parted ways with Keven Aleman, Dino Gardiner, and Jonathan Lao all players from the Toronto FC Academy program.

“We ask that our Academy players sign a letter of commitment, which is an agreement between our club and player that they will receive the best training and development opportunities, with the goal of reaching the first team,” said Toronto FC Head Coach and Technical Director Aron Winter. “These players have decided not to commit to our Academy in order to pursue tryouts overseas.”

Gardiner and Lao were members of the Academy senior squad while Aleman was a member of the junior squad. Aleman spent time with the first team during the preseason.Aleman Bio: http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1589/canada/2011/03/03/2378458/scouting-report-keven-aleman-the-next-dwayne-de-rosario

TFCRegina
05-20-2011, 02:11 AM
I hope things work out for them.

DichioTFC
05-20-2011, 02:17 AM
it truly is a shame, Aleman and Lao were outstanding in the very limited time that I had seen them play.

I'm sure those three will find a way to professional football sooner rather than later, but in all honesty, to me this speaks volumes about the club. When we can't convince local kids to stick around, we're in big trouble.

gomesv
05-20-2011, 02:18 AM
I hope things work out for them.


I saw Aleman play in the U17 world cup qualifications in Jamaica during my trip......He was pretty impressive to watch and I think he'll do well over in Europe.....hopefully we see him back with TFC one day.

ag futbol
05-20-2011, 07:52 AM
MLS is going to keep learning the hard way there is no "cheap" way to keep your prospects unless you actually put them under contract.

I think Chivas lost a kid last year who ended up starting in the Boca / River derby.

mastermixer
05-20-2011, 07:55 AM
So are we going to have problems keeping academy players at TFC too? Hopefully this is the exception more than the norm.

London
05-20-2011, 07:55 AM
aleman will be a big loss, very good player for sure,

it sucks that the academy loses players.

Whoop
05-20-2011, 08:01 AM
It's a reality in MLS that players, especially academy kids, will want to go overseas and try their luck.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-20-2011, 09:27 AM
meh, i dont hope they succeed as id rather have them play here (and im that petty).
As discussed in todays news thread, i think it speaks more about the league than it does the club. Theres nothing to indicate that this has anyhting to do with the club at all. If anything it states the kids wanna try their luck in europe. Its still the MLS and kids are still going to leave if they think theyve got a better chance in Europe.

Section 117
05-20-2011, 09:40 AM
MLS is going to keep learning the hard way there is no "cheap" way to keep your prospects unless you actually put them under contract.

I think Chivas lost a kid last year who ended up starting in the Boca / River derby.

For the most part these kids should not be signing contracts as professionals. The reason for that is that they would lose their eligiblity to play in college. It is a safety net for most players and unless thy are sure fire locks to become professionals I would advise them not to sign a contract.

TFC's academy will forever have this problem as the allure of playing in Europe is too great for most kids to pass up. It is the dream like most hockey players want to play in the NHL

London
05-20-2011, 09:44 AM
so why are we opening up this giant compound if this is going to continue??


or am i way off???

flamehawk
05-20-2011, 09:44 AM
Nooooo.... :(

I was looking forward to Lao and Aleman continuing on with us.

Shep
05-20-2011, 09:49 AM
so why are we opening up this giant compound if this is going to continue??


or am i way off???

There'll be plenty of kids who are willing to commit to TFC for the chance to train there I'm sure.

Curious though, does anyone know if other youth adacemies (Europe or otherwise) have similar stipulations?

Personally I have no issue with the Academy requesting a commitment (within reason), it's a big investment to put into a person if they just up and leave as soon as something seemingly better pops up. I wish the boys success, but at the same time, I hope they don't get dreams squashed across the pond and find themselves without an option to come home to.

I assume too, even if a player does commit, the club can always grant them permission to travel and train elsewhere if the circumstances are right.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-20-2011, 09:58 AM
so why are we opening up this giant compound if this is going to continue??


or am i way off???

not every kid will go to europe and some kids will blossom at a diff time etc etc

Beach_Red
05-20-2011, 10:06 AM
For the most part these kids should not be signing contracts as professionals. The reason for that is that they would lose their eligiblity to play in college. It is a safety net for most players and unless thy are sure fire locks to become professionals I would advise them not to sign a contract.

TFC's academy will forever have this problem as the allure of playing in Europe is too great for most kids to pass up. It is the dream like most hockey players want to play in the NHL


So how does this work, will the kids will have to chose between the TFC academy and NCAA scholarships if they get offers?

Section 117
05-20-2011, 11:43 AM
So how does this work, will the kids will have to chose between the TFC academy and NCAA scholarships if they get offers?

If a player signs a professional contract and are getting paid to train and participate they looses their amateur status, so they can't play in the NCAA, I am not sure about Canadain university.

If I recall the MLS worked out something to let the academy kids sign these letters that Winter said the 3 refused to sign and keep their eligibility.

I know is other sports if a college kid hires an agent he looses his eligibility as well. I am not sure if this still applies.

But I hope that these kids have the proper support group around them that are looking out for them first and not just solely financial. Cause it is easy to sell the dream, but reality sucks.

werewolf
05-20-2011, 01:19 PM
TFC will be due Training Compensation when the players become professionals.

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/01/27/64/30/regulationsstatusandtransfer2010_e.pdf


Training compensation shall be paid to a player’s training club(s): (1) when a
player signs his fi rst contract as a professional and (2) each time a professional
is transferred until the end of the season of his 23rd birthday. The obligation
to pay training compensation arises whether the transfer takes place during
or at the end of the player’s contract.

Page 23


1. A player’s training and education takes place between the ages of 12 and 23. Training compensation shall be payable, as a general rule, up to the age of 23 for training incurred up to the age of 21, unless it is evident that a player has already terminated his training period before the age of 21. In the latter case, training compensation shall be payable until the end of the season in which the player reaches the age of 23, but the calculation of the amount payable shall be based on the years between the age of 12 and the age when it is established that the player actually completed his training.
2. The obligation to pay training compensation is without prejudice to any
obligation to pay compensation for breach of contract.

Page 59 onwards.

CretanBull
05-20-2011, 02:13 PM
^ Read section 60. If the players aren't under contract to the club who trained them then the training team isn't owed anything.

ElvistheEvilScotsman
05-20-2011, 02:25 PM
I understand the spirit of the TFC academy contract but I dont blame these kids at all. Why would you commit to a team that pays youth jackall and then holds them to a ransom contract with very little reward? Attakora is a great example of being under paid compared to his peers frozen out as he wants to be paid fairly.

Nestease
05-20-2011, 02:27 PM
If a player signs a professional contract and are getting paid to train and participate they looses their amateur status, so they can't play in the NCAA, I am not sure about Canadain university.


Players also drop their amateur status for one year at the Canadian University level. Andrea Lombardo played for York after being dropped from TFC. They had to forfeit the four games he participated in.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-20-2011, 02:30 PM
i seem to think thats been changed recently

prizby
05-20-2011, 02:37 PM
Players also drop their amateur status for one year at the Canadian University level. Andrea Lombardo played for York after being dropped from TFC. They had to forfeit the four games he participated in.

CIS rules are a bit confusing...that same year Gabe Gala and Nana Attakora played for UofT and York respetively...difference between them and Lombardo was they were on a developmental contract while he was a on a 'pro' contract...look at St. Mary's...they got Mike Danton who use to be an NHL player...with Danton though, he had to start in his 3rd year of eligibility because you lose a year for each year you are a pro past the age of 21

at the same time though, I haven't been able to figure out why Haley Wickenheiser was on year 1 of eligibility with Calgary this year (she played professionaly in Finland, albeit in a mens league)

werewolf
05-20-2011, 02:47 PM
^ Read section 60. If the players aren't under contract to the club who trained them then the training team isn't owed anything.

Registered doesn't necessarily mean signed a contract, just registered to play for them. You have to be registered for a team to play a match for them, i.e. CSL.


. On registering as a professional for the first time, the club with which the
player is registered is responsible for paying training compensation within 30
days of registration to every club with which the player has previously been
registered (in accordance with the players’ career history as provided in the
player passport) and that has contributed to his training starting from the
season of his 12th birthday. The amount payable is calculated on a pro rata
basis according to the period of training that the player spent with each club.
In the case of subsequent transfers of the professional, training compensation
will only be owed to his former club for the time he was effectively trained by
that club.

Benficachop20
05-20-2011, 03:07 PM
NOOOOOOO!!! i really wanted to see Aleman playing for the senior team. Have high expectations and really thought he would be a big star for the club.

For those who don't know Dino Gardiner, he's a rb. Another player i had hopes for. His playing style reminds me of Maicon (not as good of course but an example) loves to get forward and takes on defenders very well and looked pretty built for a young guy. He played for Canada's u18 team but i believe recently he was called up by Jamaica's u20 team.

Pookie
05-20-2011, 03:37 PM
I'm sure those three will find a way to professional football sooner rather than later, but in all honesty, to me this speaks volumes about the club. When we can't convince local kids to stick around, we're in big trouble.

The issue you raise speaks to the larger picture of youth development and career aspirations. These 3 players may have better opportunities in Europe but for the bulk of these kids, there is a bigger question.

If you are asking a youth soccer player to commit to TFC and the base salaries that earning a first team spot would represent, you are forcing them to make a very tough decision.

If you take hockey as an example, many players are foregoing the quicker "route to the NHL" that is the CHL in favour of NCAA opportunities. They recognize that making it to the big time is a long shot, regardless of your talent and having something to fall back on is important.

No one would recommend that they would forego an education in favour of a spot on an East Coast League Professional team. That's effectively what you are asking a kid to do to sign on to the MLS.

Nana didn't get rich off his $40k salary. And he was (and still is) a good Canadian player.. Without an education, players like him are an injury away from a low paying career for life. Of course, there are exceptions but the stats say that without an education your income is lower.

Addressing this as part of the "commitment" is an important factor if we want the Academy to take off.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-20-2011, 04:03 PM
id argue that but at 40k you can still afford to go to school or get osap like the rest of us schmucks, hes still young and youre never too old for an education

CretanBull
05-20-2011, 04:05 PM
Registered doesn't necessarily mean signed a contract, just registered to play for them. You have to be registered for a team to play a match for them, i.e. CSL.

"Registered as a professional" - these players weren't professional.





Compensation is not due if:


i. the former club terminates the player’s contract without just cause
(without prejudice to the rights of the previous clubs); or


ii. the player is transferred to a category 4 club; or

iii. a professional reacquires amateur status on being transferred.


1. These players weren't under contract to TFC to beging with.

2. The players weren't transferred

3. The players weren't professional.

werewolf
05-20-2011, 04:09 PM
Yes, when they register as a professional for the first time (sign first pro contract), their previous clubs are entitled to reimbursement.


On registering as a professional for the first time, the club with which the
player is registered is responsible for paying training compensation within 30
days of registration to every club with which the player has previously been
registered (in accordance with the players’ career history as provided in the
player passport) and that has contributed to his training starting from the
season of his 12th birthday.

denime
05-20-2011, 04:21 PM
Yes, when they register as a professional for the first time (sign first pro contract), their previous clubs are entitled to reimbursement.

True and there is a way how they calculate how much clubs are getting based on from what country player is coming.

I don't remember exactly what formula they are using but I know that club that develop player in Holland get most $$.

For example TFC will get $20K for Aleman,while Holland club would get for him $100K.

CretanBull
05-20-2011, 04:56 PM
Registered doesn't necessarily mean signed a contract, just registered to play for them. You have to be registered for a team to play a match for them, i.e. CSL.

I just spoke to someone who's involved in these things. What it comes down to is what is meant by "parting ways". If these players have been released from their obligation to TFC, then we aren't owed anything under any circumstance.

If the players are transferred to their new clubs (even on a free transfer) then we're owed money if they sign a pro contract. If the player goes from one academy to another (and keeps amature status) we get nothing now, but will get money if the player signs a pro contract within 30 months.

ag futbol
05-20-2011, 08:04 PM
For the most part these kids should not be signing contracts as professionals. The reason for that is that they would lose their eligiblity to play in college. It is a safety net for most players and unless thy are sure fire locks to become professionals I would advise them not to sign a contract.

TFC's academy will forever have this problem as the allure of playing in Europe is too great for most kids to pass up. It is the dream like most hockey players want to play in the NHLFor anyone who wants to play professionally one day College should be an option very far down the list. The specifics of the college game make it bad for anyone who wants to make it to the pro level. Those kids who have come through the system would have been much better off somewhere else.

Bottom line is: other places offer contracts, we have to compete at that level.

J .
05-21-2011, 01:36 AM
Im thinking those guys have opportunities to join academies overseas perhaps. Aleman was the best player in the u17s, I hope for his sake he gets in with a top training side. He has real potential, good news for Canada.

TFCRegina
05-21-2011, 01:47 PM
CBC states they were flat out released for wanting to tryout overseas. Stark contrast to what I consider to be the far more superior (and loyalty building) Vancouver Residency approach where they allow the kids to pursue their opportunities overseas, and if they don't pan out, they can come back to play for the club.

All this does is piss off potential future players.

Shway
05-22-2011, 08:55 AM
same reason why Teibert, and Coby left Toronto FC to play for the Whitecaps

Toronto needs to realize that all footballers are always looking for there best opportunity.

EDIT: Might i add, that this is also so stupid of the club to release the players, because now they are legit free agents, and for a player like Aleman, who has the potential to make some noise at this coming FIFA U-17 tournament, could be a huge loss in getting some compensation from a european club who could be interested in him.

The thing about this to is that Winter is coming from a club like Ajax, regardless of the players that they produce, none of them say they just want to play for Ajax, cause if a barcelona, real madrid, man u, chelsea ect. coming calling for their players there either quick to sell, or the players are quick to show interest.

AL-MO
05-22-2011, 10:28 AM
CB...you're arguing with the wrong user of this board....just sayin' :D

Macksam
05-22-2011, 01:13 PM
id argue that but at 40k you can still afford to go to school or get osap like the rest of us schmucks, hes still young and youre never too old for an education

Yeah, saying that University isn't an option after professional sports is absurd. You don't need an NCAA scholarship to go to University ffs.

CretanBull
05-22-2011, 01:37 PM
CB...you're arguing with the wrong user of this board....just sayin' :D

Not arguing ('cause ultimately I don't know one way or the other!) just repeating what I was told by a international contract lawyer who works at Osler and has handled similar situations.

Dub Narcotic
05-23-2011, 12:37 AM
Yeah, saying that University isn't an option after professional sports is absurd. You don't need an NCAA scholarship to go to University ffs.

No kidding. A 20 yr. old making 40k a year, and being given a golden opportunity as a professional sportsman, but still getting the winter off to go to school or do something else? That's a better deal than most have.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-23-2011, 09:27 AM
Winter was prob doing them a favor by releasing them, seeing as thered be no paper work/fiasco to follow, especially if they wanted to leave

denime
05-23-2011, 10:10 AM
Yeah, saying that University isn't an option after professional sports is absurd. You don't need an NCAA scholarship to go to University ffs.


You are absolutely right,there is only one small problem with your "plan B",you will need a HS diploma with decent grades and all credits.

I know for fact that one of thees 3 boys is so bad in HS he probably will never get HS diploma,great boy,no attitude,but school was never priority,for him to go to Europe and become a professional soccer player is all he has for his future and there a few more who would never get scholarship because of HS grades , so signing with TFC for $40 K is already great deal for them.

rocker
05-23-2011, 11:13 AM
yes, and university is not for everyone (grades, interests, etc.). furthermore, it's often better to live your dream of football now and then go to school years later if the dream fails. you'll get much more out of university -- even if you have to take a loan -- when you're a mature adult than when yer 18.

RANT: many of the students i teach at that age don't even know why they are in university... they don't put a great effort in.. they party too much... graduate without remembering a lot of the things they were taught... have no idea what they want to do even with a degree... have no job or low paying jobs after university. The mature students do so much better.

Macksam
05-23-2011, 11:16 AM
You are absolutely right,there is only one small problem with your "plan B",you will need a HS diploma with decent grades and all credits.

I know for fact that one of thees 3 boys is so bad in HS he probably will never get HS diploma,great boy,no attitude,but school was never priority,for him to go to Europe and become a professional soccer player is all he has for his future and there a few more who would never get scholarship because of HS grades , so signing with TFC for $40 K is already great deal for them.
Awesome, even more reason not to worry about college.

yes, and university is not for everyone (grades, interests, etc.). furthermore, it's often better to live your dream of football now and then go to school years later if the dream fails. you'll get much more out of university -- even if you have to take a loan -- when you're a mature adult than when yer 18.

RANT: many of the students i teach at that age don't even know why they are in university... they don't put a great effort in.. they party too much... graduate without remembering a lot of the things they were taught... have no idea what they want to do even with a degree... have no job or low paying jobs after university. The mature students do so much better.
Sounds like you deal with B-commerce students mostly.

Whoop
05-26-2011, 02:11 PM
Aleman says he wanted to stay.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/05/26/sp-tfc-aleman.html

Stouffville_RPB
05-26-2011, 02:25 PM
Well there is Aleman's side of the story now.

He says he wanted to sign a letter of commitment but only wanted to wait until after the WC but why wait? If you know you want to play here then sign it before. The only reason that makes sense to me is that he is hoping the WC gets him noticed overseas.

Or maybe he had a trial but it got cancelled and he was already released.

Either way I can't see TFC parting ways with one of the brightest stars of the national youth program for absolutely no reason.

pdogg
05-26-2011, 02:26 PM
Aleman says he wanted to stay.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/05/26/sp-tfc-aleman.html

When I read that, the sceptic in me sees "I wanted to commit to TFC, but not until I was able to showcase myself at this huge tournament. If I didn't get any sniffs from clubs in Europe, I would have signed for sure".

Then again, it may just as he says, that he wanted to focus on the football, who knows.

rocktml
05-26-2011, 02:27 PM
ugh.........

Roogsy
05-26-2011, 02:34 PM
It's not surprising that we get the player's side of the story and immediately suspect more than what he says but accept Winter's word at face. Why is that?

This is not the first (but hopefully the last) time that Winter's side of a story does not match the players. Whether one side is right or not, you have to admit that it does not bode well for management/player relations.

gomesv
05-26-2011, 02:46 PM
It's not surprising that we get the player's side of the story and immediately suspect more than what he says but accept Winter's word at face. Why is that?

This is not the first (but hopefully the last) time that Winter's side of a story does not match the players. Whether one side is right or not, you have to admit that it does not bode well for management/player relations.


I'm not sure I see two sides of a story here. Winter wanted him to sign and the kid wanted to wait until after the U17 world cup. I don't blame this kid one bit, the world cup is a high profile event and he may be noticed for a european try out, Winter wanted to avoid that from happening (maybe management wanted a sign and sell option).... I don't blame either side. However should be reaching out to this kid in case his options in Europe don't pan out.

pdogg
05-26-2011, 02:49 PM
Aleman says:

"I told them I wanted to stay with TFC. I wanted to play there and I wanted to be with the team. … I [just] wanted to leave the door open until after the World Cup,"

He's being very forward in that he would love to play for TFC, unless he gets an offer after playing at the World Cup. TFC Management wants to lock him up before he goes for fear of losing him if they don't. They asked him to commit, and if he didn't they would let him go. He decided not to sign, hoping he gets an offer after the WC, either in returning to TFC or through another club (hopefully european). That's not being suspect, and it's not one side being wrong or right.

Roogsy
05-26-2011, 02:51 PM
I'm not sure I see two sides of a story here. Winter wanted him to sign and the kid wanted to wait until after the U17 world cup. I don't blame this kid one bit, the world cup is a high profile event and he may be noticed for a european try out, Winter wanted to avoid that from happening (maybe management wanted a sign and sell option).... I don't blame either side. However should be reaching out to this kid in case his options in Europe don't pan out.

I don't disagree. But in an effort to retain the talent that we are developing, shouldn't the effort be on both sides? If Winter wants to retain this kid, then releasing him doesn't send the right message does it? He will still go off an play, still get seen by other teams and will eventually sign somewhere else and TFC gets nothing. Wouldn't the smart thing have been to give him some motivation to sign the contract beforehand? Negotiations and contracts have to have advantages and compromises for both sides. TFC's negotiating tactics recently has afforded none of that and it's causing friction in the dressing room.

This is the problem with TFC as a whole and points to a problem I have been trying to convince people has been happening since new management arrived. Their new attitude is "our way or the highway" and that is simply not the way to build a team. All-or-nothing negotiations rarely result in positive outcomes. If we are only giving out ultimatums (which has happened with several players, not just with academy players) then the only players that WILL sign with us are the ones that have no other choice. How do you build a contending team like that?

v00d00daddy
05-26-2011, 02:52 PM
It's not surprising that we get the player's side of the story and immediately suspect more than what he says but accept Winter's word at face. Why is that?

Winter: "These players have decided not to commit to our academy in order to pursue tryouts overseas."


Aleman: "I wanted to play for TFC. I never said I had tryouts anywhere. I never said I wanted to go anywhere. I just said I wanted to wait until after the World Cup. I just wanted to focus on the World and see what would happen after that,"


read: I want to play for TFC if nothing better comes up after the world cup.

Aleman: "I told them I wanted to stay with TFC. I wanted to play there and I wanted to be with the team. … I [just] wanted to leave the door open until after the World Cup,

What Molinaro should have asked:


Leave the door open for what? I thought you wanted to play for TFC?

Aleman: "That's something I would love to do, to go play in Europe. I think it's everyone's dream to play in Europe,"


No problem. Makes total sense. You're right. Everyone does want to play in Europe. So why are you saying that you wanted to sign with TFC?

Seriously JMo....please put people on the spot every once in a while.





This is not the first (but hopefully the last) time that Winter's side of a story does not match the players. Whether one side is right or not, you have to admit that it does not bode well for management/player relationsDo you really think the sides of the story are different?

Winter says that the player didn't want to commit to TFC.
Aleman says that he wants to play in Europe.

Done.

It sucks that a good player wouldn't commit to TFC but thems the breaks sometimes.

Another poorly veiled attempt to make Winter seem like a bad guy Roogsy.

JuliquE
05-26-2011, 02:55 PM
Another poorly veiled attempt to make Winter seem like a bad guy Roogsy.
QFT!

Roogsy
05-26-2011, 02:55 PM
Winter: "These players have decided not to commit to our academy in order to pursue tryouts overseas."

Aleman: "I wanted to play for TFC. I never said I had tryouts anywhere. I never said I wanted to go anywhere. I just said I wanted to wait until after the World Cup. I just wanted to focus on the World and see what would happen after that,"


read: I want to play for TFC if nothing better comes up after the world cup.


Aleman: "I told them I wanted to stay with TFC. I wanted to play there and I wanted to be with the team. … I [just] wanted to leave the door open until after the World Cup,


What Molinaro should have asked:





Leave the door open for what? I thought you wanted to play for TFC?


Aleman: "That's something I would love to do, to go play in Europe. I think it's everyone's dream to play in Europe,"



No problem. Makes total sense. You're right. Everyone does want to play in Europe. So why are you saying that you wanted to sign with TFC?



Seriously JMo....please put people on the spot every once in a while.







Do you really think the sides of the story are different?

Winter says that the player didn't want to commit to TFC.
Aleman says that he wants to play in Europe.

Done.

It sucks that a good player wouldn't commit to TFC but thems the breaks sometimes.

Another poorly veiled attempt to make Winter seem like a bad guy Roogsy.


Nice misdirection but you are failing to take into account context.

Aleman is not saying he was not willing to commit to TFC, he said he wanted to wait. Yes, he wanted to wait until he was able to showcase his skills in order to have a better negotiating position, but that's normal in sports and if Winter wanted to avoid others taking a peak at an upcoming star, then the letter of commitment is certainly a good way of doing it, but you have to motivate a person to do it, not give them an ultimatum.

So as it stands now, a prospect widely admired has left us not by his own accord but because the team chose to kick him out and instead of capitalizing on his abilities at any point in the future, we get zero return for a player the team itself admitted has great potential. How is that smart business?

I don't think Winter is a bad guy. I think he is a poor manager. I think the evidence is starting to speak for itself. At the end of the day, we lost a good prospect and gained what exactly?

P.S. You are penalizing the kid for something all players in the TFC locker room would admit if they didn't think guys like you would jump all over them. Almost every player in that room has told me they want to go to Europe, how exactly is that different from what Keven said? So why exactly should we castigate him for it?

v00d00daddy
05-26-2011, 02:56 PM
I don't disagree. But in an effort to retain the talent that we are developing, shouldn't the effort be on both sides? If Winter wants to retain this kid, then releasing him doesn't send the right message does it? He will still go off an play, still get seen by other teams and will eventually sign somewhere else and TFC gets nothing. Wouldn't the smart thing have been to give him some motivation to sign the contract beforehand? Negotiations and contracts have to have advantages and compromises for both sides. TFC's negotiating tactics recently has afforded none of that and it's causing friction in the dressing room.

This is the problem with TFC as a whole and points to a problem I have been trying to convince people has been happening since new management arrived. Their new attitude is "our way or the highway" and that is simply not the way to build a team. All-or-nothing negotiations rarely result in positive outcomes. If we are only giving out ultimatums (which has happened with several players, not just with academy players) then the only players that WILL sign with us are the ones that have no other choice. How do you build a contending team like that?

Wow Roogsy. Always trying to make money for a player.

Can we assume that Winter is running this academy the way it was done at Ajax?

I think we can. I'd say that they're a pretty succesful operation on that front.

I think Winter knows what he's doing.

If you want to play for TFC then sign with TFC. Offering "motivations' (read: money) just opens the door to every player playing his cards this way. Is that a better scenario?

BTW....with 16 year olds it often is a "my way or the highway".

Suds
05-26-2011, 03:01 PM
No issue here for me.

Aleman was playing his cards to try and keep his options open to get the best deal for him. That's what he and his agent should be doing as no one else is looking out for him.

TFC wanted his commitment now because they see the kid has talent and there could be a chance bigger clubs come knocking if Aleman has a good tournament. TFC sees the potential to turn their investment in training young players into either profit or players for the sr. team.

I see no harm or foul on either side here. Just professional sports in action.

v00d00daddy
05-26-2011, 03:04 PM
Nice misdirection but you are failing to take into account context.

Aleman is not saying he was not willing to commit to TFC, he said he wanted to wait. Yes, he wanted to wait until he was able to showcase his skills in order to have a better negotiating position, but that's normal in sports and if Winter wanted to avoid others taking a peak at an upcoming star, then the letter of commitment is certainly a good way of doing it, but you have to motivate a person to do it, not give them an ultimatum.

So as it stands now, a prospect widely admired has left us not by his own accord but because the team chose to kick him out and instead of capitalizing on his abilities at any point in the future, we get zero return for a player the team itself admitted has great potential. How is that smart business?

What? The kid goes on to say he wants to play in Europe. You read that as a committment to the club?

Not of his own accord? Gimme a break.

He was told that he could choose to commit prior to the WC or he would be released. He made his choice.

I wish him luck. He's a good player and hopefully he can continue to develop and represent Canada well.

gomesv
05-26-2011, 03:06 PM
No issue here for me.

Aleman was playing his cards to try and keep his options open to get the best deal for him. That's what he and his agent should be doing as no one else is looking out for him.

TFC wanted his commitment now because they see the kid has talent and there could be a chance bigger clubs come knocking if Aleman has a good tournament. TFC sees the potential to turn their investment in training young players into either profit or players for the sr. team.

I see no harm or foul on either side here. Just professional sports in action.

This.

If I was his agent I would have directed him in this way. If he would of signed with TFC it would of cost interested teams in Europe compensation for him, thus I believe closing doors for him.......... What I believe needs to happen now is for Winter to part ways in good terms for future possibilities with TFC:scarf:

v00d00daddy
05-26-2011, 03:07 PM
I don't think Winter is a bad guy. I think he is a poor manager. I think the evidence is starting to speak for itself. At the end of the day, we lost a good prospect and gained what exactly?

P.S. You are penalizing the kid for something all players in the TFC locker room would admit if they didn't think guys like you would jump all over them. Almost every player in that room has told me they want to go to Europe, how exactly is that different from what Keven said? So why exactly should we castigate him for it?

Forget it.

Castigation for wanting to go to Europe....lol

You either didn't read my post, didn't understand it, or flat out chose to ignore it. As usual...this is a one sided debate.

Roogsy's opinion vs. imaginary talk that is based in no fact land and is full of misdirection.

Just so you know what I'm talking about..here's what I wrote in my post again:


No problem. Makes total sense. You're right. Everyone does want to play in Europe. So why are you saying that you wanted to sign with TFC?

Sure sounds like castigation to me.

Why do I bother?

Have a good one.

Roogsy
05-26-2011, 03:08 PM
Wow Roogsy. Always trying to make money for a player.

In case you haven't realized it, that's what it's about for these players. So untill you realize that, you will be missing pieces to the puzzle.


Can we assume that Winter is running this academy the way it was done at Ajax?

I think we can. I'd say that they're a pretty succesful operation on that front.

I don't know how Ajax is run in terms of bringing players in vs. playing them on the pitch. I don't know how they sign kids. I don't know how they develop the various levels of the academy up until the first team. The only thing I can comment on is that if it's run like Barcelona's "Masia" there is more than one person responsible for their success. Considering Winter has only been coach of Ajax 2 since 2007 and Ajax has had a successful history of decades beforehand, you will forgive me if I don't assign Ajax's success to Winter alone.


I think Winter knows what he's doing.

I have yet to see evidence that supports this position. Quite the contrary.


If you want to play for TFC then sign with TFC. Offering "motivations' (read: money) just opens the door to every player playing his cards this way. Is that a better scenario?

They're playing them that way already if you didn't know that. If it's a kid with real potential and has been identified as having a good future, then they're already being advised by professionals and if TFC does not step up and work within that structure, these aren't going to be the only prospects we lose. Then what happens to all this "hope" we have in our academy?


BTW....with 16 year olds it often is a "my way or the highway".

In pro sports? With up and coming prospects? Surely you jest...


I really don't know what your definition of "commitment to the club" is but I suspect none of the players on our roster will meet that expectation. Either way, it's our loss for getting rid of a player, made even worse by putting such high hopes on the academy.

Whoop
05-26-2011, 03:14 PM
No issue here for me.

Aleman was playing his cards to try and keep his options open to get the best deal for him. That's what he and his agent should be doing as no one else is looking out for him.

TFC wanted his commitment now because they see the kid has talent and there could be a chance bigger clubs come knocking if Aleman has a good tournament. TFC sees the potential to turn their investment in training young players into either profit or players for the sr. team.

I see no harm or foul on either side here. Just professional sports in action.

This.

Aleman wanted to keep his options open.

TFC wanted a commitment from him.

Ideally you would think TFC would reconsider him coming back into the fold but Aleman wasn't willing to be in the fold.

It's a chicken and the egg scenario.

If he commits to TFC, he's not going to Europe for a bit but at least TFC can recoup some assets if he does. But the player isn't happy and people complain that the players aren't happy.

But if he doesn't commit and somehow stays and then bolts to Europe, TFC doesn't get anything in terms of compensation and then people complain TFC lost him for nothing.

Didn't Aleman have a trial with Bayern already?

Whoop
05-26-2011, 03:17 PM
I think most academies around the world require a commitment, problem is that TFC's academy is relatively new and that guys would rather be in Europe even though if they went to an academy in Europe they would require the same commitment... though they can just release them whenever they want over as well.

Beach_Red
05-26-2011, 03:17 PM
So, Whoop, is this something you think will happen with most academy prospects who think they have a shot at Europe?

Whoop
05-26-2011, 03:19 PM
From an earlier thread in the International section.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html?hpw

Whoop
05-26-2011, 03:22 PM
So, Whoop, is this something you think will happen with most academy prospects who think they have a shot at Europe?

I'm not the expert... LOL

In my opinion, likely... until the Academy is more established.

An agent worth his salt will tell his client to keep his options open. The money is in Europe not MLS.

I think Aleman has already had overtures from Europe.

v00d00daddy
05-26-2011, 03:24 PM
LOL. You've sucked me into another one of these debates. I really wanted to let it go but....


In case you haven't realized it, that's what it's about for these players. So untill you realize that, you will be missing pieces to the puzzle.

I guess this all just a matter of perspective then.

Aleman says "I wanted to play for TFC"

I hear: "I wanted to PLAY for TFC"
You hear: "I wanted to MAKE MONEY while playing for TFC"

Whatever...it's your job to see things that way I guess.



I don't know how Ajax is run in terms of bringing players in vs. playing them on the pitch. I don't know how they sign kids. I don't know how they develop the various levels of the academy up until the first team. The only thing I can comment on is that if it's run like Barcelona's "Masia" there is more than one person responsible for their success. Considering Winter has only been coach of Ajax 2 since 2007 and Ajax has had a successful history of decades beforehand, you will forgive me if I don't assign Ajax's success to Winter alone.

Nobody is attributing Ajax's decades long success to Winter and Winter alone. But I think it's fair to assume that he worked at Ajax in the way Ajax has always operated. I don't remember reading anywhere that he re-wrote the player development book at Ajax so it's safe to say that he ran Ajax 2 with the philosophy that was developed there before he managed there, and will likely continue to be run.

I'd hope he's bringing that same mentality to TFC. That's why I have faith that he knows what he's doing.




I have yet to see evidence that supports this position. Quite the contrary.

We've argued this in other threads so there's no point in re-hashing it.




They're playing them that way already if you didn't know that. If it's a kid with real potential and has been identified as having a good future, then they're already being advised by professionals and if TFC does not step up and work within that structure, these aren't going to be the only prospects we lose. Then what happens to all this "hope" we have in our academy?

Advertise players however you'd like. Aleman is a good player but he was a player being developed at TFC. If that was no longer good enough, fine. But I'd assume that his development was going well, considering he'd come back and continue to develop here (if he doesn't get snatched up by a bigger club after the WC)

If he was some phenom that could demand money and other "motivations" to stay here he never would have been here in the first place.




In pro sports? With up and coming prospects? Surely you jest...

No I don't jest. With up and coming prospects and with veteran stars alike. Every player is entitled to make their decisions but I don't think it's up to managers let themselves be held hostage to player demands. If Winter doesn't want to play the "wait and see if I get a better offer" game then I can live with that. Even if it means losing out on a good player.



I really don't know what your definition of "commitment to the club" is but I suspect none of the players on our roster will meet that expectation. Either way, it's our loss for getting rid of a player, made even worse by putting such high hopes on the academy.

Simple.

I like it here. I like the way I'm developing here. I like the way I'm treated here. I think being here is making me a better player. I would like to continue growing as a player here.

Letter of committment signed.

v00d00daddy
05-26-2011, 03:42 PM
From an earlier thread in the International section.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html?hpw


Great read.

Thanks for posting this.

Roogsy
05-26-2011, 04:16 PM
LOL. You've sucked me into another one of these debates. I really wanted to let it go but....



I guess this all just a matter of perspective then.

Aleman says "I wanted to play for TFC"

I hear: "I wanted to PLAY for TFC"
You hear: "I wanted to MAKE MONEY while playing for TFC"

Whatever...it's your job to see things that way I guess.

:noidea: It's a simple reality about these players and that is while they love the game, they also see it as a job and a career. If you don't think money enters their minds at every point of transition, I honestly think you are fooling yourself.


Nobody is attributing Ajax's decades long success to Winter and Winter alone. But I think it's fair to assume that he worked at Ajax in the way Ajax has always operated. I don't remember reading anywhere that he re-wrote the player development book at Ajax so it's safe to say that he ran Ajax 2 with the philosophy that was developed there before he managed there, and will likely continue to be run.

I'd hope he's bringing that same mentality to TFC. That's why I have faith that he knows what he's doing.

Just like I don't assign guilt by association, I don't give credit by association. While he has an advantage of having been trained by arguably one of the best development systems in the world, there are no guarantees that his abilities are suited for life in MLS. Lord knows Gullit wasn't.

And to be honest, I don't think his experience as the coach of the academy prepared him well to be the head coach of a senior team. Skill level aside, he is dealing with issues and problems that he did not have to deal with in his position at Ajax so what exactly makes him competent to do so here?


We've argued this in other threads so there's no point in re-hashing it.

No problem. We each hold our point of view on this. I am obviously looking for more supportive evidence than we have seen to this point. I think we are all within our rights to determine for ourselves how much evidence we need in order to be convinced.


Advertise players however you'd like. Aleman is a good player but he was a player being developed at TFC. If that was no longer good enough, fine. But I'd assume that his development was going well, considering he'd come back and continue to develop here (if he doesn't get snatched up by a bigger club after the WC)

If he was some phenom that could demand money and other "motivations" to stay here he never would have been here in the first place.

Aleman was arguably the best prospect we had. If our hopes are pinned on the academy and we have lost the best of that the academy has produced so far, what exactly am I pinning my hopes on going forward?


No I don't jest. With up and coming prospects and with veteran stars alike. Every player is entitled to make their decisions but I don't think it's up to managers let themselves be held hostage to player demands. If Winter doesn't want to play the "wait and see if I get a better offer" game then I can live with that. Even if it means losing out on a good player.

There is a difference between management allowing himself to be held hostage (which I agree should not happen) and a management team that is inflexible and hardline with current and future team members. You are simply cutting off your nose to spite your face. Sports is business. And while I allow myself to be emotional with regards to TFC, I cannot afford to do so in business and TFC needs to do the same. There is no upside to hurting yourself in this way. Prospects and young players with potential are a very rare commodity and at some point TFC's management has to realize that they are not so desireable as to be so selective in their process and do away with potential candidates simply because the candidates choose to be more careful about negotiating away their own interests. Did we not just see what happened with DeRo when negotiations were carelessly done? Was not the accusation towards him that he went ahead with a contract that he was not happy with? But on the other hand, we are telling players to give in to TFC's every demand and not look out for their every interest? Seems like a contradictory position to take.


Simple.

I like it here. I like the way I'm developing here. I like the way I'm treated here. I think being here is making me a better player. I would like to continue growing as a player here.

Letter of committment signed.

If you put it this way to Aleman, I am sure he'd agree with your statement and if that is all the letter of commitment required of him, he would have signed it. Obviously the kind of commitment that the team required of him was more than what you are proposing here.

Roogsy
05-26-2011, 04:20 PM
I think most academies around the world require a commitment, problem is that TFC's academy is relatively new and that guys would rather be in Europe even though if they went to an academy in Europe they would require the same commitment... though they can just release them whenever they want over as well.

I think you are overlooking a major factor here Vic and that is in the academies "around the world", most operate in a market where players have some rights to movement. So committing to teams does generate some commitments but not to the detriment of their careers in the future. In MLS, we have seen how difficult it is for players to move around, for players to negotiate more favourable contracts and therefore players employ their only means of negotiation, lengths of contract. I am not sure why people don't see the difference between the work environment in North America compared with the rest of the world. If this were Europe, and TFC was a European-based team I am almost certain he would have signed that letter of commitment. But obviously, in North America, the lack of avenues afforded to players to improve playing contracts leaves them with the difficult decision of not committing themselves to teams for terms that could affect potential income.

rocker
05-26-2011, 05:18 PM
The best will probably always leave the academy for greener pastures. The others will stick it out because they don't have a lot of other options. Chances are, the ones who stay will be good enough to be MLS players (MLS is not a top league, after all). and maybe some of those who stick around will turn into players with European options (think of what happened to Maurice Edu.. not an academy kid but a late bloomer college type... I could see some late bloomer academy types signing with TFC and growing with time). Key thing is to have a constant pipeline of kids.

Waggy
05-26-2011, 05:24 PM
No issue here for me.

Aleman was playing his cards to try and keep his options open to get the best deal for him. That's what he and his agent should be doing as no one else is looking out for him.

TFC wanted his commitment now because they see the kid has talent and there could be a chance bigger clubs come knocking if Aleman has a good tournament. TFC sees the potential to turn their investment in training young players into either profit or players for the sr. team.

I see no harm or foul on either side here. Just professional sports in action.

Great summarization. Both parties looking out for themselves, went separate ways. Things happen. Who knows, maybe he'll still be back after the U 17 WC anyways (unless he does end up getting a good offer from Europe)

Whoop
05-26-2011, 05:27 PM
I think you are overlooking a major factor here Vic and that is in the academies "around the world", most operate in a market where players have some rights to movement. So committing to teams does generate some commitments but not to the detriment of their careers in the future. In MLS, we have seen how difficult it is for players to move around, for players to negotiate more favourable contracts and therefore players employ their only means of negotiation, lengths of contract. I am not sure why people don't see the difference between the work environment in North America compared with the rest of the world. If this were Europe, and TFC was a European-based team I am almost certain he would have signed that letter of commitment. But obviously, in North America, the lack of avenues afforded to players to improve playing contracts leaves them with the difficult decision of not committing themselves to teams for terms that could affect potential income.

Not disputing that.

Europe will always be the goal no matter how hard TFC tries to keep young players here.

But it's kind of the similar situation when people argue that a player develops in Canada and then when he gets a chance bolts for another country.

Without some form of commitment - maybe the commitment has to be worded differently - a player could train and develop with TFC, the player bolts, and the team gets left with nothing.

Would he have signed the commitment if there wasn't a World Cup? Maybe in a World Cup year, a player has a window of opportunity to explore options. Not so much in World Cup years. But does the club get compensation if the player leaves?

I don't know the formality of the commitment. Is compensation worked into it or if he signs is he committed to the program for a year?

I think both parties were trying to cover their ass. But if a party doesn't want to make a commitment to you do you force that person to stay? What's the point of the commitment letter if one guy doesn't want to sign it?

I'll leave it to you guys to decide. I have to go home. LOL

Whoop
05-26-2011, 05:29 PM
Great summarization. Both parties looking out for themselves, went separate ways. Things happen. Who knows, maybe he'll still be back after the U 17 WC anyways (unless he does end up getting a good offer from Europe)

My only issue with an outright release if he doesn't get an offer from Europe, isn't he free to join any other team, say another MLS club or worse yet a Canadian MLS club?

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

DichioTFC
05-26-2011, 05:56 PM
Here's hoping Aleman will come back to the Academy after the U-17 WC. It's odd that the releases happened, it really does seem like a bit of unnecessary stiff-arming from the club.

For all the perceived good that Winter received for doing everything in his power to get the game stopped, a bit of that is diminished by his perceived part in this mess.

Waggy
05-26-2011, 08:09 PM
My only issue with an outright release if he doesn't get an offer from Europe, isn't he free to join any other team, say another MLS club or worse yet a Canadian MLS club?

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

For sure. But setting the precedent for the future could be valuable. Esp if the academy becomes the finance department of the club (like it is in Ajax). Even if we lose this kid, the next time this happens the kid and his parents will know their options are to either play it safe and take the sure thing (TFC) or take the risk and go for broke (Europe). They won't be able to use TFC as a fall back option or plan B. Which is good in my books.

scooterTFC
05-26-2011, 08:19 PM
I agree, a case of two party's with some common and some divergent interests that couldnt get aligned. It's newsworthy because we lost a top prospect but it's not a evidence of bad management on the part of club.

The unfortunate part of this is that it could negatively impact Aleman's prepartion and playing form heading into the world cup and he's an important part of that team.

Shway
05-26-2011, 08:27 PM
In the cases of Aleman.....he is definately in the top 5 strikers in CONCACAF at the U-17 level....if not the best. If you think that is an overstatement, then you either didnt watch U-17 tournament, or simply dont know.


For sure. But setting the precedent for the future could be valuable. Esp if the academy becomes the finance department of the club (like it is in Ajax). Even if we lose this kid, the next time this happens the kid and his parents will know their options are to either play it safe and take the sure thing (TFC) or take the risk and go for broke (Europe). They won't be able to use TFC as a fall back option or plan B. Which is good in my books.

I understand the GIST of what your saying, but when you are dubbed one of the best in CONCACAF.... As a Canadian you are either looking to sign with your home club (toronto) or sign abroad. Aleman is in a great position for his age, and for him to not sign a letter of commitment to the academy is fair. This situation would be entirely different for him if they were offering to sign him to the first team, and he says "well....im kinda looking for better opportunites in europe". Then thats a reason to set a precedent or a standard for the future, other than that..... this is all bullocks, and TFC may have lost another Teibert.

Waggy
05-26-2011, 08:40 PM
In the cases of Aleman.....he is definately in the top 5 strikers in CONCACAF at the U-17 level....if not the best. If you think that is an overstatement, then you either didnt watch U-17 tournament, or simply dont know.



I understand the GIST of what your saying, but when you are dubbed one of the best in CONCACAF.... As a Canadian you are either looking to sign with your home club (toronto) or sign abroad. Aleman is in a great position for his age, and for him to not sign a letter of commitment to the academy is fair. This situation would be entirely different for him if they were offering to sign him to the first team, and he says "well....im kinda looking for better opportunites in europe". Then thats a reason to set a precedent or a standard for the future, other than that..... this is all bullocks, and TFC may have lost another Teibert.

Not saying it's a good thing for us that we lost this kid. Just saying I understand the clubs position too. Obviously the players is understood (who wouldn't want to go play in Europe). And the club might as well make the most of a situation where they weren't going to keep the player anyways

Whoop
05-26-2011, 08:42 PM
Good point.

Would Aleman sign a commitment if he was to get first team time? Could he have gotten first team time this year?

Macksam
05-26-2011, 09:19 PM
I'm not the expert... LOL

In my opinion, likely... until MLS starts paying competitive salaries.

An agent worth his salt will tell his client to keep his options open. The money is in Europe not MLS.

I think Aleman has already had overtures from Europe.

FYP

Not to be a douche, but this would be more accurate.

Whoop
05-26-2011, 09:23 PM
I agree.

But MLS won't be getting competitive salaries for a while. I still think at least 2 CBAs away. The one thing MLS is cognizant of is they don't want to end up like the NASL.

And even though we hate to admit it the fact that MLS isn't in line with the rest of the world in terms of schedule - winter schedule - doesn't help either.

But my point was in regards to players leaving the Academy not MLS in general.

J .
05-26-2011, 10:18 PM
I think the problem was that TFC wanted Aleman and the others to commit without TFC committing to them.

Also, I think at least for the next 50 years, having players want to go play in Europe makes sense, it will probably take that long for the game to get a fan base critical mass to be able to support the high quality of football of the England, Germanys, Italys etc of the world.

MLS is and will be a development league and have a few aging stars who want to play in North America. Thats fine, the product is still pretty decent and if countries like Brazil and Argentina cant keep their best, I doubt we will.

Roogsy
05-26-2011, 10:55 PM
Not saying it's a good thing for us that we lost this kid. Just saying I understand the clubs position too. Obviously the players is understood (who wouldn't want to go play in Europe). And the club might as well make the most of a situation where they weren't going to keep the player anyways

But that is a giant leap of assumption, there is no guarantee that they would have lost the kid had they made a real effort to keep him and that is where the debate lies. I know of several contract offers that TFC has made to players where they looked at the contract and would rather try their luck elsewhere because TFC severely lowballed them. It seems to be the new practice at TFC and it will surely guarantee that what we are left with is not a very competitive team. One thing is negotiating hard to get the best deal and another is not negotiating at all and trying to strong-arm players into contracts they don't like. It's happened several times with this team and I am not talking about the old regime.

We simply don't know what kind of commitment TFC needed to make to Aleman in order to get Aleman to make a commitment back, but given their history in these negotiations, I would guess that their offer was not worth Aleman's time to waste. It probably signed him to the bare minimum allowed for lengthy periods of time. I know guys that were making more working in restaurants on the side. There simply is no upside to players signing these contracts and yet TFC keeps making them. The only guys that will sign these contracts are guys that are desperate for the job. Is that what we want our team to be? The last resort for players?

Pookie
05-27-2011, 06:24 AM
I know of several contract offers that TFC has made to players where they looked at the contract and would rather try their luck elsewhere because TFC severely lowballed them

Just in the interest of objectivity, do you know of several contract offers that OTHER MLS ACADEMIES have made to players in order to conclude that TFC "lowballed" them?

Are Columbus Crew Academy players walking tall with guaranteed contracts, European and NCAA movement flexibility and stuffed bank accounts?

Seems to me that teams... plural... that operate in a league in which the base salary at a professional level is $42k and that amount is generally not guaranteed might not exactly be able to roll out agreements that contain a lot of the goodies.

Just sayin'

Hey where is the sensationalistic doom and gloom that normally accompanies your over the top and unsubstantiated conclusions?


It seems to be the new practice at TFC and it will surely guarantee that what we are left with is not a very competitive team.

^ ahh, there it is.

If you can produce multiple contract offers from OTHER MLS ACADEMIES which prove that we are well out of the "ball park", then you have a point and I will follow alongside your conclusion. That's who we are competing for players with. I look forward to your next post with this level of detail.

If you think we are competing with Academies from Europe and must make competitive offers with them, I'll leave you to go back to enjoying your beer.

Beach_Red
05-27-2011, 07:20 AM
^ Now we're happy being on the same level as Columbus? As every other team in MLS?

Wow, sure didn't take long to go from the model for MLS 2.0 to be happy in the middle of the pack.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-27-2011, 07:24 AM
^ Now we're happy being on the same level as Columbus? As every other team in MLS?

Wow, sure didn't take long to go from the model for MLS 2.0 to be happy in the middle of the pack.
Cmon man, hes giving an example. By the way, Columbus is a team that does quite well regularly in the league, as much as we hate them.

You also gotta remember that the league installed these academies just recently and also just allowed teams to sign as many as these kids as they want just recently. Teams in general arent going to sign these unknown kids to european sized contracts. There are some academies that havent even signed kids yet.

I already know that im going to regret getting into this discussion

Beach_Red
05-27-2011, 07:31 AM
^ the building of this academy was sold to us as a huge deal, a significant step in the building of the new "culture" and new direction. The thing isn't even built yet and already we're hearing they won't be able to hold on to the best players.

If it wasn't for the hype, it might be different.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-27-2011, 07:31 AM
fact of the matter is aleman wanted to wait until the wc was over to maybe sign with TFC and TFC wanted a commitment before hand. What the conditions of TFCs contract were are unknown and cant be commented on by anyone. Ideally Aleman will come back to us, but who knows.

spark
05-27-2011, 07:55 AM
Just in the interest of objectivity, do you know of several contract offers that OTHER MLS ACADEMIES have made to players in order to conclude that TFC "lowballed" them?

Who cares what other academies are offering though? Comparing ourselves, or saying "well we're just doing what everyone else in the league is", is the terrible protocol and mentality that has kept TFC near the bottom for the last 4 years.

Set your own standards. If you want the best young players then you make an offer you know they will be happy with and WANT to be here on. Begin the culture that word gets out TFC Academy takes care of their kids, they get the BEST training, and when they are weighing out Columbus and TFC it's a no brainer (or Vancouver!!).

That is not going on at all right now and the only precedent that has been set is that if you graduate from Academy to Senior Team you are lucky to get any minutes and will mostly be riding the bench.

Fort York Redcoat
05-27-2011, 08:05 AM
^ the building of this academy was sold to us as a huge deal, a significant step in the building of the new "culture" and new direction. The thing isn't even built yet and already we're hearing they won't be able to hold on to the best players.

If it wasn't for the hype, it might be different.

A huge investment. It's a good thing. It isn't surefire success. Nobody said it is. God. So much hyperbole...

Whoop
05-27-2011, 08:10 AM
So should the Academy kids be signed to make more money than some first team players, > $42k?

Can you even give academy kids salaries? Do players in other academies sign monetary contracts or is just the lure of possibly playing with a first division European team the carrot?

Are we even talking monetary commitments?

I may be naive but don't know of any academies in the world that giving their academy players a salary.*

*I'm sure there is an exception somewhere in the world.

Whoop
05-27-2011, 08:12 AM
^ the building of this academy was sold to us as a huge deal, a significant step in the building of the new "culture" and new direction. The thing isn't even built yet and already we're hearing they won't be able to hold on to the best players.

If it wasn't for the hype, it might be different.

The best players will always want to go overseas until MLS as a whole is better established. That could take 40-50 years.

But the whole thing, and the new thing, is that now a Canadian kid has options. He can stay in Canada. In the past, a 13-14 year old kid had to go overseas in order to get better. Now, that 13-14 year old kid could stay at home.

Beach_Red
05-27-2011, 08:13 AM
A huge investment. It's a good thing. It isn't surefire success. Nobody said it is. God. So much hyperbole...


You're right, of course, we've been on the receiving end of marketing hyperbole for a long time and we should be able to ignore it or at least put it in its proper perspective. Not a surefire success.

drewski
05-27-2011, 08:16 AM
If a player signs a professional contract and are getting paid to train and participate they looses their amateur status, so they can't play in the NCAA, I am not sure about Canadain university.

If I recall the MLS worked out something to let the academy kids sign these letters that Winter said the 3 refused to sign and keep their eligibility.

I know is other sports if a college kid hires an agent he looses his eligibility as well. I am not sure if this still applies.

But I hope that these kids have the proper support group around them that are looking out for them first and not just solely financial. Cause it is easy to sell the dream, but reality sucks.


in the CIS, you can regain amateur status but not participating in professional sports for a year, though you lose a year of eligibility for every year you played pro

http://english.cis-sic.ca/information/members_info/pdfs/pdf_elig_pack/10-11/6_Policy_40.10_Eligibility_Rules_2010-11.pdf


40.10.6.2 Participation as a Professional
40.10.6.2.1 Any professional athlete may participate in CIS competition one year from the date that the athlete last participated in a professional game or event in that sport.

40.10.6.2.2 An athlete who participated in a professional league game, playoff game, or event in a recognized sport of CIS, in the same academic year in which the athlete has participated in post-secondary competition in a recognized sport of CIS, shall only be charged with one year of eligibility. The recognized sports of CIS include football, field hockey, soccer, rugby, volleyball, basketball, ice hockey, cross-country running, track & field, swimming, and wrestling.

40.10.6.2.3 One year of eligibility shall be charged to a professional athlete for each year that the athlete participated in a recognized sport of CIS as a professional, specifically:


the specifics for soccer


Soccer
An athlete shall be considered a professional for that year in which the athlete played soccer in a semi-professional or professional league, unless the athlete played under the classification of amateur and possessed an amateur contract as provided by a National Soccer Association.
Within North America, the following leagues are considered to be professional:
• Major League Soccer (MLS)
• United Soccer Leagues Division 1 and Division 2 (USL)
• North American Soccer League (NASL)

Players who participate exclusively under the Developmental Player designation within the MLS or as an amateur within the USL or NASL are classified as amateurs and exempt from this regulation.

Pookie
05-27-2011, 08:59 AM
Who cares what other academies are offering though? Comparing ourselves, or saying "well we're just doing what everyone else in the league is", is the terrible protocol and mentality that has kept TFC near the bottom for the last 4 years.

Set your own standards. If you want the best young players then you make an offer you know they will be happy with and WANT to be here on. Begin the culture that word gets out TFC Academy takes care of their kids, they get the BEST training, and when they are weighing out Columbus and TFC it's a no brainer (or Vancouver!!).

That is not going on at all right now and the only precedent that has been set is that if you graduate from Academy to Senior Team you are lucky to get any minutes and will mostly be riding the bench.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about setting high standards.

I was specifically replying to Roogsy's point about TFC lowballing players and those players pursing other options. My question to him is which options? If everyone in MLS is offering the same or lower, how can you conclude that TFC is lowballing its players?

If he is referring to elite players pursuing options outside of MLS, well, yeah... they are going to do that regardless of what you offer because the financial and competitive benefits of the higher leagues vastly outweighs the benefits of playing in the MLS.

brandrews
05-27-2011, 09:43 AM
am i missing something here? i thought these kids were released from our academy, not offered pro contracts that they refused.

as far as signing the letter of commitment, i would think that everyone playing in the academy would have been asked to sign them, so wouldn't it be kind of bad for team morale if management let a couple of players be exceptions in hopes that they commit later?

BFin
05-27-2011, 09:46 AM
I'm not fully in tune with the operations of the academy but wanted to call out on thing I haven't seen mentioned here. If other players on the Academy signed their letters of commitment in the allotted time period, why should one player be allowed a bigger window? Could create tension amongst other Academy players who feel as though they aren't being afforded equitable treatment.

Just to touch on the "Players on play for money in the MLS" comment...didn't Abel Xavier say in the Beckham Experiment that he left Middlesborough and came went to the Galaxy because he liked the new challenge? I'm sure the 180k he was making here wasn't as much as he could have made in a 2nd division or as a veteran substitute with a club in Europe?

golasogolaso
05-27-2011, 10:32 AM
even at foreign clubs academy players receive a small "pay" with incentives kicking in once certain milestones are reached (reserve, first team appearances). im sure tfc kids (those with no NCAA eligibility like Aleman) receive something as well, and if TFC did see a future for this player, Im sure they would have put a more long-term proposal for player to consider. Plus there is AAP http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/sc/pgm/apaa2-eng.cfm#t219 which is received.

Whoop
05-27-2011, 10:38 AM
While I would figure all academy players have dreams of playing pro soccer, once they receive any form of compensation they're deemed not eligible for the NCAA.

So again, it's about keeping options open.

(Though I don't know if government money is included in that.)

CretanBull
05-27-2011, 10:58 AM
Its my understanding that TFC weren't trying to sign these players to contracts (the team wasn't offering these guys any money or terms), only trying to get them to sign letters of intent - an agreement to sign their first pro contact with TFC when the time comes (not today).

Ossington Mental Youth
05-27-2011, 10:59 AM
sure, why wouldnt they?
would you want to train an employee to work somewhere else?

CSO_BBTB
05-27-2011, 11:15 AM
^ Now we're happy being on the same level as Columbus? As every other team in MLS?

Wow, sure didn't take long to go from the model for MLS 2.0 to be happy in the middle of the pack.

Belief in and/or promotion of that model was always based on differing combinations of hype, marketing spin, narcissism, self-delusion and lack of knowledge of the league's history. MLS is deliberately set up to keep everybody reasonably close to the middle of the pack. There was never any reason to expect TFC to wind up on a higher plane than the rest of MLS. Think some people might save themselves from going through a lot of unnecessary angst where TFC is concerned if they came to terms with that.

Beach_Red
05-27-2011, 11:26 AM
^ In many ways MLS is modelled on the NFL with salary caps and revenue sharing. The model would seem to keep every team in the middle of the pack and yet some dynatsies have emerged and some teams are almost always also-rans.

The same is likely to happen in MLS.

Waggy
05-27-2011, 11:53 AM
But that is a giant leap of assumption, there is no guarantee that they would have lost the kid had they made a real effort to keep him and that is where the debate lies. I know of several contract offers that TFC has made to players where they looked at the contract and would rather try their luck elsewhere because TFC severely lowballed them. It seems to be the new practice at TFC and it will surely guarantee that what we are left with is not a very competitive team. One thing is negotiating hard to get the best deal and another is not negotiating at all and trying to strong-arm players into contracts they don't like. It's happened several times with this team and I am not talking about the old regime.

We simply don't know what kind of commitment TFC needed to make to Aleman in order to get Aleman to make a commitment back, but given their history in these negotiations, I would guess that their offer was not worth Aleman's time to waste. It probably signed him to the bare minimum allowed for lengthy periods of time. I know guys that were making more working in restaurants on the side. There simply is no upside to players signing these contracts and yet TFC keeps making them. The only guys that will sign these contracts are guys that are desperate for the job. Is that what we want our team to be? The last resort for players?

Well based on his desire to stay until after the U 17's it seems like what it would have taken to keep him is allow him to train with the academy, get the training, the practices, the facilities, training with the big club etc., go to the U 17s to show off for the world. Then say to him go do your best and please go to Europe. And lose him for nothing if he does go to a European club. As much as I want to develop these kids for the Nat team, if they aren't willing to sign the paper that allows the team to benefit from them going to Europe (with financial returns), then why should TFC spend time, money or energy developing them? As someone else already said, the TFC academy isn't a charity

Roogsy
05-27-2011, 01:07 PM
Well based on his desire to stay until after the U 17's it seems like what it would have taken to keep him is allow him to train with the academy, get the training, the practices, the facilities, training with the big club etc., go to the U 17s to show off for the world. Then say to him go do your best and please go to Europe. And lose him for nothing if he does go to a European club. As much as I want to develop these kids for the Nat team, if they aren't willing to sign the paper that allows the team to benefit from them going to Europe (with financial returns), then why should TFC spend time, money or energy developing them? As someone else already said, the TFC academy isn't a charity

I am not sure I am explaining myself properly. It's not that these kids don't want to commit, it's that the team wants players to commit to unreasonable contract terms. Would you or would you not disagree that Aleman shouldn't sign a contract or letter of commitment that is completely in TFC's favour and puts his negotiating position at a disadvantage in the future?

What is the point of signing with a hometown club if their intention is to sign you to undervalued contracts because they can? Is that what people what players to "commit" to? Who here would do that?

BFin
05-27-2011, 02:35 PM
What contract? Does anyone actually know what the letters specifically said...or are we grasping at straws as per usual?

Ossington Mental Youth
05-27-2011, 02:50 PM
grasping at straws as per usual?

yep, pretty much

brandrews
05-27-2011, 03:13 PM
I am not sure I am explaining myself properly. It's not that these kids don't want to commit, it's that the team wants players to commit to unreasonable contract terms. Would you or would you not disagree that Aleman shouldn't sign a contract or letter of commitment that is completely in TFC's favour and puts his negotiating position at a disadvantage in the future?

What is the point of signing with a hometown club if their intention is to sign you to undervalued contracts because they can? Is that what people what players to "commit" to? Who here would do that?

what are these terms? why did only 3 of 40ish (at least) kids not sign these letters? how do the terms set forth by tfc compare to other academies in mls and around the world?

edit: added "not" to my question so that it would make sense...haha

Wingback6
05-27-2011, 04:44 PM
Another example of this organization treating it's charges like crap>? from CBC. http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2011/05/26/sp-tfc-aleman.html

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
05-27-2011, 04:47 PM
seems to me the kid wanted to go impress at the world cup....as a ton of scouts will be on hand....if he does....does he return to TFC....most likely not.....im sure tfc knew this and wanted that letter signed to cover the ass...i dont blame TFC one bit it this is the case..

ForeverTFC
05-27-2011, 05:02 PM
At the end of the day, you have to treat talent good. I would understand if everyone did this, but we seem to be one of the only clubs.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
05-27-2011, 05:06 PM
At the end of the day, you have to treat talent good. I would understand if everyone did this, but we seem to be one of the only clubs.

Its called protecting you assets....this kid go's to the world cup not signed and impresses some euro club...we get nothing for the player we took under its wing...you think this is right?

Pookie
05-27-2011, 05:14 PM
I am not sure I am explaining myself properly. It's not that these kids don't want to commit, it's that the team wants players to commit to unreasonable contract terms. Would you or would you not disagree that Aleman shouldn't sign a contract or letter of commitment that is completely in TFC's favour and puts his negotiating position at a disadvantage in the future?

What is the point of signing with a hometown club if their intention is to sign you to undervalued contracts because they can? Is that what people what players to "commit" to? Who here would do that?

I love it. A statement regarding "undervalued" contracts with no comparative.

Do you have examples of MLS Academies offering a player like this a better, at value or even overvalued contract?

I'm going to guess, no.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
05-27-2011, 06:59 PM
mlse dont even own the players salaries......the league does.....the league is fucked up no doubt :)

Roogsy
05-27-2011, 07:09 PM
Its called protecting you assets....this kid go's to the world cup not signed and impresses some euro club...we get nothing for the player we took under its wing...you think this is right?


And so right now, how much exactly would we get for the player?

Roogsy
05-27-2011, 07:12 PM
I love it. A statement regarding "undervalued" contracts with no comparative.

Do you have examples of MLS Academies offering a player like this a better, at value or even overvalued contract?

I'm going to guess, no.

The CBA determines developmental contracts. The undervalued contracts come into play when they come off the developmental list. TFC is trying to tie up players past the developmental stage so that they can put them into cheap pro contracts. Aleman was willing to stay under a development deal, not under a deal where the team controlled his pro career for an extended period of time well afterwards. That's the sticking point. It's not like academy kids can ask for 6 figure contracts.

As for contracts that TFC offers on a comparative basis, I in fact do know and it's embarrassing. And no I am not talking about DeRo.

BFin
05-27-2011, 11:18 PM
And so right now, how much exactly would we get for the player?
We save the money it would take to keep this player on the academy and open up a space for a kid who wants to sign the letter.

Seems logical to me.

BFin
05-27-2011, 11:19 PM
The CBA determines developmental contracts. The undervalued contracts come into play when they come off the developmental list. TFC is trying to tie up players past the developmental stage so that they can put them into cheap pro contracts. Aleman was willing to stay under a development deal, not under a deal where the team controlled his pro career for an extended period of time well afterwards. That's the sticking point. It's not like academy kids can ask for 6 figure contracts.

As for contracts that TFC offers on a comparative basis, I in fact do know and it's embarrassing. And no I am not talking about DeRo.

Can you provide us a copy of the letter? I'd love to read that part of it.

Roogsy
05-27-2011, 11:20 PM
We save the money it would take to keep this player on the academy and open up a space for a kid who wants to sign the letter.

Seems logical to me.


Saving money is the goal here? If that were the case, why make the offer at all? I thought the point here was to keep our top prospects and from my understanding, this was one of the top young prospects in all of Canada and possibly CONCACAF. How is that worth the few dollars TFC are saving? If saving dollars was the goal, why have an academy at all?

BFin
05-27-2011, 11:27 PM
Did I ever say that was the goal, or are you spinning another post to make it beneficial for your argument?

The goal is to develop players that want to play for TFC and want to committ to the team. Preferential treatment should not exist and if the kid is not willing to sign with the rest of his team than the best thing to do is let him explore his opportunities elsewhere. Allowing him to stay with the club would only take one spot away from a kid who wants to committ and wants to stay with the club despite their performance in a WC.

If he wants to come back later, no one has indicated they would have any problem with it. Good luck to him, but if you're looking for other opportunities...pay for yourself to train.

Roogsy
05-27-2011, 11:56 PM
I asked what the benefit to the club was.

You responded with the answer "we save the money".

Nothing there to "spin" it's pretty straight forward. You seem to believe saving money is the benefit here so my question is also pretty straight forward, if saving money is the point, why have an academy at all?

As for the point of "allowing him to stay" that is completely within TFC's rights. i have never disagreed. I just think it's a stupid way to run things, to let commodities go out the door without compensation. But what do I know? I don't know anything about getting returns on investments.

Especially since I pointed to the fact that the academy kids were "paying attention" to what was developing to players and their contracts on the first team and people dismissed it like it was not important. Do you really think that had nothing to do with what happened here? It's like people don't want to see the big picture around here.

And no, Keven (and the others) leaving is not taking up any spots for other kids. Do you think every kid that comes up through the academy is going to wind up on the developmental roster on their way to the first team? This isn't a line-up at Tim Hortons.

BFin
05-28-2011, 12:17 AM
Oh Roogs, your anti-TFC attitude is becoming a daily highlight of my day.

I actually stated: "We save the money it would take to keep this player on the academy and open up a space for a kid who wants to sign the letter.

Seems logical to me."

To someone who doesn't hate everything TFC this would indicate that I am implying that saving the cash spent on a kid who doesn't want to committ and investing it (along with the time on the field) to another kid who does is a better statement to those other 37-47 (based on 40-50 developmental players) kids who did sign the letter.

Letting him stay and leave after the WC for no compensation is no different. As I stated before, why not give the time to a kid who has committed to the team and the letter that 90-95% of them found to be another step in their career development?

Keven isn't taking up a spot on the field during games, training etc. that another kid who isn't currently getting time could fill? It's not a line-up at Tim Horton's, but it's not a game of high-school dodgeball either. Not everyone gets in the lineup, not everyone gets equitable time to develop.

Couldn't care less about your ROI Roogs. Sorry, but I'm keeping careers out of this and just trying to support TFC.

CSO_BBTB
05-28-2011, 12:24 AM
The goal is to develop players that want to play for TFC and want to committ to the team.

Absolutely, all the fuss on this is a bit like US military reservists who are shocked to find themselves called up to fight in a foreign war having made use of the free education used to entice them. Failure to read the big print. Of course TFC would want first refusal on an initial lengthy pro contract because developing players to help win games for TFC in MLS is the reason for making the multimillion investment in the Academy and new training facility at Downsview.

A 16 year old who expects to be able to get free training from TFC until the age of 18 before going off to play in Europe as his first pro contract clearly wants to have his cake and eat it too. Good luck to Aleman if he thinks he is good enough to make the jump to the European big time at 18 and hope it works out for him but I'd much rather see the roster spot on the U-18 team in the CSL being used to develop somebody I might actually get to see play at BMO Field one day so think Aron Winter made the right call.

Roogsy
05-28-2011, 12:28 AM
Oh Roogs, your anti-TFC attitude is becoming a daily highlight of my day.

I actually stated: "We save the money it would take to keep this player on the academy and open up a space for a kid who wants to sign the letter.

Seems logical to me."

It isn't. Keven beign the best example of a player that was going to generate a better return than dropping some other kid in there that may or may not have any sort of future in soccer. Each kid has varying level of potential and thus a different value. As much as people around here are trying to dismiss it as a non-issue, losing your top prospect, which Keven was, hurts. Period. Your attitude is like Barcelona having said 15 years ago, "Meh, we can afford to let Messi go beacuse another one will come around". It's ridiculous.


To someone who doesn't hate everything TFC this would indicate that I am implying that saving the cash spent on a kid who doesn't want to committ and investing it (along with the time on the field) to another kid who does is a better statement to those other 37-47 (based on 40-50 developmental players) kids who did sign the letter.

Stop throwing up unrelated arguments that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. My frustration with TFC is not an indication of "hating" everything TFC so lose the strawman argument and try to retain some measure of logical argument. I don't go around calling you an MLSE ass-kisser do I? Should I start?

As for saving cash, you have no concept of value and return. 1 kid like Aleman was worth 20 kids in the system and you seem to think losing him is better because it makes room for one more of those kids? Please tell me you don't manage your own money.


Letting him stay and leave after the WC for no compensation is no different. As I stated before, why not give the time to a kid who has committed to the team and the letter that 90-95% of them found to be another step in their career development?

I never said that TFC should not try to nail down Aleman (and the others) before the WC. But strong-arming them into a contract was not the way to go nor was it to put forward a proposal that was solely in TFC's favour. If you want a top prospect to stay, you have to provide them with motivation. It's pretty basic stuff. It's a lesson TFC still does not seem to be learning well. If you treat top players and prospects the same way as you treat the benchwarmers, they're not going to want to stay. If anyone thinks that a top prospect should be given the same letter of commitment as the kid who will probably not make it anywhere within the system, you're nuts. Top teams, in any sport, don't do that.


Keven isn't taking up a spot on the field during games, training etc. that another kid who isn't currently getting time could fill? It's not a line-up at Tim Horton's, but it's not a game of high-school dodgeball either. Not everyone gets in the lineup, not everyone gets equitable time to develop.

Of course he was taking up that spot. Because he had the potential. So instead of making a concerted effort to keep the kid with potential that may either give the team a good return on the money spent (which they are spending anyways as you rightly pointed out but a return on that investment would help open up many more spots as opposed to a single one) or actually break into the top team like Henry did and contribute on the field. (Lord knows we could use the help). Closing the door on those potential benefits is a good way to run the team? Says you.


Couldn't care less about your ROI Roogs. Sorry, but I'm keeping careers out of this and just trying to support TFC.

This isn't about careers to you, but it is to them. And to ignore it is to ignore looking at things from a player's (and team's) perspective. It's business for both sides but fans should ignore that fact? Then what is relevant? It's the biggest consideration to them, but we're more interested in both sides giving us platitudes and giving us phony demonstrations of kissing the badge and complimenting the supporters while at the same time making arrangements to leave town. Wonderful.

Roogsy
05-28-2011, 12:41 AM
BTW, ROI on the Academy investment is EXACTLY what this team has promised us. Lord knows they've based their entire future success on it. But we shouldn't pay attention to that? So now we're not interested in holding the team accountable to their new promises either? Sometimes we Toronto fans get exactly what we deserve.
.

BFin
05-28-2011, 12:43 AM
Typing on a netbook, let me try and address each section of the essay one at a time.

First Paragraph: did you just compare an unproven Canadian kid to Messi? Come on Roogs. Letting him go may not be the best thing for the current developmental product on the field, but the point of this squad is to develop as many young players as possible that ideally will play for this team someday. If his prospects are going to a European club before he has a TFC contract would we get anything for that? If he leaves right after the WC would we get anything for that?

Second Paragraph: 98% of the posts you make are anti-management, anti-team, and anti-Winter. Forgive me for assuming that meant that the other 2% didn't represent your true feelings. As for my money? I fail to see what that has anything to do with it? I have never asked out of my job in a fuss over my contract so I must be more satisfied with my financial standing than some of your clients. I can throw stones too.

Paragraph the third: Asking him to sign a commitment and then releasing him is not strong arming him. That's allowing him to make his own decisions on his future. If he decides he wants to come back, I'm sure they'd be fine with that.

Paragraph four: I never said that losing a prospect was good. I said that showing your academy players you are committed to those who will commit to you is good.

Paragraph five: You brought up your return on investment, not me. I'm fine with my standing in life and would love to see ALL of these kids succeed. Unfortunately I also am happy with the fact that TFC is treating all of their academy players like they matter...not just a select few.

Roogsy
05-28-2011, 01:00 AM
Typing on a netbook, let me try and address each section of the essay one at a time.

First Paragraph: did you just compare an unproven Canadian kid to Messi? Come on Roogs. Letting him go may not be the best thing for the current developmental product on the field, but the point of this squad is to develop as many young players as possible that ideally will play for this team someday. If his prospects are going to a European club before he has a TFC contract would we get anything for that? If he leaves right after the WC would we get anything for that?

No, but now we've guaranteed that to happen instead of remaining in the game and having a chance at retaining any future benefits. What kid is going to step into that spot within the next 6 weeks that we needed to make room for it right away? As for the Messi comparison, no I am not comparing Aleman to Messi, I am comparing an Academy's attitude towards their top prospect in terms you could understand. Your message seems to be that losing your top prospect is a ho-hum event because there are other kids available to take his place. I assume then there's another Aleman waiting in the wings of TFC Academy just like there would have been another Messi in La Masia? Care to point me in his direction?


Second Paragraph: 98% of the posts you make are anti-management, anti-team, and anti-Winter. Forgive me for assuming that meant that the other 2% didn't represent your true feelings. As for my money? I fail to see what that has anything to do with it? I have never asked out of my job in a fuss over my contract so I must be more satisfied with my financial standing than some of your clients. I can throw stones too.

My clients know value and demand it. That's why they're my clients. If you don't demand value, that's your business, hence my comment about hoping that you don't manage your own money.

As for my comments, they are anti-management. Period. I readily admit it because I think they have started off on the wrong foot and have not corrected their path. I have friends on that team and I have never said a word against the players on the pitch so I have no idea what you mean by "anti-team" but I suspect it's another mischaracterization on your part of my position. In fact, I have been very consistent about my position in that I truly prefer to support the players as oppsoed to preferring to support managment which seems to be the popular position around here these days.


Paragraph the third: Asking him to sign a commitment and then releasing him is not strong arming him. That's allowing him to make his own decisions on his future. If he decides he wants to come back, I'm sure they'd be fine with that.

Ultimatums are most definitely a strong-arm tactic, in what world are they not a strong-arm tactic? That's what this was. An ultimatum. It is a negative tactic used to force a decision rather than "let him" make a decision. Now you're arguing that this was done to benefit him? Please.


Paragraph four: I never said that losing a prospect was good. I said that showing your academy players you are committed to those who will commit to you is good.

You will forgive my confusion since you're behaving like losing a top prospect is a good thing. I almost pictured you jumping in the streets over what a great move this was for TFC. As for "commitment" to the kids, that's hardly an accurate portrayal of what TFC is doing here. Once again you're painting TFC as some sort of white knight giving these kids a helping hand. Ridiculous.


Paragraph five: You brought up your return on investment, not me. I'm fine with my standing in life and would love to see ALL of these kids succeed. Unfortunately I also am happy with the fact that TFC is treating all of their academy players like they matter...not just a select few.

Treating them like they matter? How exactly are they doing that? Your argument now is that this is an altruistic move on the team's part? Boy that MLSE comment wasn't far off was it?

And of course I brought up the ROI on these players, despite your denial, that's what this whole issue is about. Keven (and the others) were already in the academy, for some time and had moved up to the developmental roster. Do you have any idea of the cost of replacing that investment? And that is IF you can find a player of Keven's calibre. Them leaving is money, time, effort and potential right out the window. That's just bad business. On other teams and other sports, heads would roll. And all this made worse by the degree to which TFC has made the Academy a big part of the "hope and faith" they have begged us to retain in this organization, but hey, they'll be able to come through despite losing top prospects! Riiiiight...

You guys keep pointing to how much I have become "anti-TFC" and yet nobody is able to point to a single shred of evidence as to why any faith should be given to this club. Every major area in which this team has promised us to improve they have not delivered. Anselmi even went as far as claiming Mclean has no influence in this club and yet his influence remains to this day. With things like that happening with this club, why exactly should I not be negative towards the club? Just give me one major promise that has been fulfilled by club since they got their asses handed to them by the supporters at the end of last year?

TFCRegina
05-28-2011, 01:13 AM
^ McLean must be gone from this club forever. He's caused as many problems this year as he has in previous years.

Roogsy
05-28-2011, 01:16 AM
His tentacles are still in this club. And yet...we've fallen so asleep that as many times as I have pointed it out, nobody seems to care.

I guess he wasn't part of the problem, right? Nah...he couldn't have been. Our problems have been solved and everything is ok with TFC and since he is still around, I am sure that it proves we judged him wrongly.

I'm out. Wake me up when someone cares enough about this team to start demanding real change at this club. Not just this cosmetic stuff.

Pookie
05-28-2011, 08:33 AM
^ In all your TFC failure message do you ever consider situation from the perspective of the player, the player's parents and anyone else advising him?

If the...
...point here was to keep our top prospects

... do you ever consider the fact that the top prospect might not want to be "kept"? Perhaps they are predisposed to other routes such as Europe or even the NCAA (though the later doesn't seem to be a factor in this specific case).

If you want to keep your options open, a negotiating strategy is to be interested but non-committal in an attempt to force the other side to "up their offer." ie. "I really like this Honda but the price seems a little steep, is that Toyota dealer over there?"

If TFC is an option but not the only one, you might try to use your (perceived) options as leverage and raise your demands. If it doesn't pan out, you still have options. And at the end of the day, maybe you never really wanted that Honda and were simply price shopping in order to gauge how far your dollar would go.

Did it ever enter into your thought process that this was a player that was going to be very difficult, if not impossible to sell on the MLS?

menefreghista
05-28-2011, 09:37 AM
His tentacles are still in this club. And yet...we've fallen so asleep that as many times as I have pointed it out, nobody seems to care.

I guess he wasn't part of the problem, right? Nah...he couldn't have been. Our problems have been solved and everything is ok with TFC and since he is still around, I am sure that it proves we judged him wrongly.

The Maclean news is unfortunate. It gives me a sick feeling.


I'm out. Wake me up when someone cares enough about this team to start demanding real change at this club. Not just this cosmetic stuff.

Don't worry, we have a price freeze! Nothing else matters!

v00d00daddy
05-28-2011, 09:46 AM
As for saving cash, you have no concept of value and return. 1 kid like Aleman was worth 20 kids in the system

And this, in a nutshell, is likely where the differences in opinion come from.

I know the business side of the game has become one of the most important parts of the game, but this kind of attitude can not possibly be a good one for fostering development throughout the whole academy.

People can quesiton Winters coaching accumen based on the fact that he has little experience coaching a senior team. But......

It's been said before but I think it deserves to be said again.

Aron Winter knows how to develop young footballers. His experience with the Ajax academy dictates that.

So I'm sorry, but that trumps all of this cost benefit analysis and ROI talk that you're offering.

Flat out, 100%, Winter knows what he's doing better than you (or anybody else on this board) do. I don't care what you're area of expertise is.

Nobody here is an expert at running a succesful academy.

menefreghista
05-28-2011, 09:55 AM
Winter is familiar with how things are run in Europe.

For all we know this hard ass attitude with ultimatums won't be successful here. Until TFC gains a better reputation it will always be dealing from a position of weakness in these types of cases.

Putting all this aside over what was the right thing to do with these three academy players, its pretty hard to get excited and hyped up about our Academy program like the club wants us to, when we lose our best prospect so easily.

v00d00daddy
05-28-2011, 10:01 AM
I'm out. Wake me up when someone cares enough about this team to start demanding real change at this club. Not just this cosmetic stuff.

This is such condescending horse shit.

So I will reply in like:

Roogsy's priorties of support at TFC:

1. Make sure every player makes as much money as they can.

















2. Hope for TFC to be successful and win.

You claim to care about this club but you've lumped yourself in a group with the "friends" (cllients) you have on this club so all that means to me is that you are a part of the "us v. them" mentality at the club.

In essence, we're sitting here arguing with a disgruntled player (you) instead of a lowly supporter (everyone else on this board)

You're too close to the players at this club to offer any kind of objective opinion on any subject.

This fact is lost because you have inside info, you're good at arguing, and you know your shit when it comes to money/contract issues.

So please stop talking about caring enough to demand change.

We all care. It's just different for each of us.

You care that the players are treated "properly" in your eyes, which, at the end of the day, amounts to being compensated monetarily to some standard that the player believes he's worth.

You're a player agent in supporters clothing.

Off to the game for me to watch some football.....becuase after all, that's why I support this team.

Beach_Red
05-28-2011, 10:28 AM
TFC's biggest problem has always been signing and keeping players. The organization has never had anyone with any experience doing that on the payroll.

Winter won't get out-coachd in this league, but for a while he'll get out-signed when it comes to finding players and until the FO gets sorted out he'll have the same problems retaining players that every other coach of TFC has had.

Roogsy
05-28-2011, 06:59 PM
LOL classic post about these players being my clients. I've already stated they aren't but now not only am I a bad supporter I'm also a liar.

For those that choose not to be slanderous, I will state on the record nobody at TFC is my client. Not a single player, staff member or red blooded human being.

Because of course I could not possibly be supportive of the athletes more than I am of beaurocrats. That's completely unbelievable.

I know agents. None of them care this much. For those that aren't biased against me all I can do is assure you that my feelings come from a genuine place of concern and worry for this team and soccer in Canada. TFC's failure is a millstone around the neck of Canadian soccer.

Shakes McQueen
05-28-2011, 07:28 PM
My read on what Voodoo said, is that he thinks you're incapable from looking at these things from the perspective of anything but an agent - not that you're literally their agent.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

- Scott

Roogsy
05-28-2011, 07:31 PM
Is the agent perspective wrong somehow?

Of course I can look at it from their point of view, aside from getting paid, agents are supposed to have their client's best interest at heart. And a happy player is a productive player. They are after all why we come to the stadium aren't they? It's not to see Paul B tweet is it? So why are we so dismissive of their "point of view" and their interests and yet still expect them to produce? At 40k a year? I am not sure if expectations around here are reasonable.

By the way, he is directly inferring that they are my clients. Which is baloney. I never really wanted to say it but none of them could afford me, not even close to it, except for JDG and he definitely is not my client. I know who manages his money.

v00d00daddy
05-28-2011, 07:44 PM
Is the agent perspective wrong somehow?

Of course I can look at it from their point of view, aside from getting paid, agents are supposed to have their client's best interest at heart. And a happy player is a productive player. They are after all why we come to the stadium aren't they? It's not to see Paul B tweet is it? So why are we so dismissive of their "point of view" and their interests and yet still expect them to produce? At 40k a year? I am not sure if expectations around here are reasonable.

By the way, he is directly inferring that they are my clients. Which is baloney. I never really wanted to say it but none of them could afford me, not even close to it, except for JDG and he definitely is not my client. I know who manages his money.

I never meant that you are literally anyone's agent. I couldn't possibly know that.

Shakes hit the nail on the head.

I think you look at things as if you were an agent.

And to answer your question...yes, I think the agents point of is wrong.

Sport is not one giant cost benefit analysis. Not to me at least.

On that note, I'm done discussing anything TFC related with you other than on field stuff.

All this other shit is the realm of people who are more concerned with how much a players making than anything else.

Football is my interest...not ensuring that players are properly compensated. I'll leave that to the agents.

Roogsy
05-28-2011, 07:53 PM
I never meant that you are literally anyone's agent. I couldn't possibly know that.

Shakes hit the nail on the head.

I think you look at things as if you were an agent.

And to answer your question...yes, I think the agents point of is wrong.

Sport is not one giant cost benefit analysis. Not to me at least.

On that note, I'm done discussing anything TFC related with you other than on field stuff.

All this other shit is the realm of people who are more concerned with how much a players making than anything else.

Football is my interest...not ensuring that players are properly compensated. I'll leave that to the agents.

And I honestly think that is where you are failing to connect the dots that this issue is a fundamental factor in building a quality team. By allowing the team to screw up contract negotiations, they are failing at putting together a competent team and thus depriving US of competent football on the pitch. And in my opinion, it is the biggest element of team building. That's why I argue it so fervently. So while you would like to keep football as your "interest", by ignoring these other considerations, you are basically ignoring a key element of what it takes to build a quality team.

Beach_Red
05-28-2011, 08:00 PM
And I honestly think that is where you are failing to connect the dots that this issue is a fundamental factor in building a quality team. By allowing the team to screw up contract negotiations, they are failing at putting together a competent team and thus depriving US of competent football on the pitch. And in my opinion, it is the biggest element of team building. That's why I argue it so fervently. So while you would like to keep football as your "interest", by ignoring these other considerations, you are basically ignoring a key element of what it takes to build a quality team.

Exactly. When this team started - from scratch - they put a guy in charge who had never negotiated a contract, never hired a single player, never been more than a coach for a few games. Is it any surprise he may have leaned on his own agent a little too much?

You'd think that to get out of that hole they might have hired someone with a lot of experience negotiating contracts and hiring players in this league...

Rocket Robin
05-28-2011, 10:02 PM
In the Canadian Soccer Forum of this board I mentioned seeing Dino Gardiner playing in last night's Serbian White Eagles vs York Region Shooters match in the CSL. (he was playing for the Shooters and played quite well). The Academy plays in that league too. He answered to me that he'd had some tryouts in Germany already and will be leaving for more soon.

denime
05-29-2011, 06:31 AM
In the Canadian Soccer Forum of this board I mentioned seeing Dino Gardiner playing in last night's Serbian White Eagles vs York Region Shooters match in the CSL. (he was playing for the Shooters and played quite well). The Academy plays in that league too. He answered to me that he'd had some tryouts in Germany already and will be leaving for more soon.


Thanks for this info.I seems to me Winter is not a liar after all.

menefreghista
06-01-2011, 09:48 AM
From jpg75 at the Voyageurs forum:

I was told that this "commitment letter" is actually an amended version of the amateur contract that the club gives to the rest of the players in the Academy. TFC has scratched out the line in the contract that, to paraphrase, says "the player may leave the club after the season provided he does not sign with another MLS club". Essentially by doing this it means the 'commitment letter' is a permanent amateur contract instead of a 1 year deal like everyone else signs. TFC are trying to get Keven Aleman to sign his future to the club without compensation (instead of signing him to a HG contract).